DMV 2021/22 Quarter 2 & 3 Performance; Policies on services and benefits; with Minister and Deputy Minister

Meeting report

The Chairperson emphasised the need for having constructive discussions between the Committee and the Department of Military Veterans (DMV) so that they could work towards serving the needs of military veterans in South Africa.

DMV's Q2 and Q3 Performance Information

Mr Sandisa Siyengo, Chief Director: Research & Policy Development, DMV, said the purpose of the presentation was to appraise the Committee on the Department’s second and third quarter financial and non-financial performance.

The budget of the Department had been reduced by almost R50 million, from R654.3 million to R607 million, due to budget adjustments across government. The quarter 3 cumulative spending was R290.6 million vs a targeted spend of R455.2 million. The quarter 3 expenditure of R290.6 million was 40% of the quarter 3 targeted spend of R447.5 million, and 48% of the total appropriation of R607 million. Of the total spend of R290.6 million, R86.6 million was for the cost of employment (CoE), R116.5 million was payment for goods and services, R74 million was payment for transfers and subsidies, and R13.4 million was payment for capital assets.

The Social Economic Support (SES) cumulative spend of 44% was behind target, mainly driven by the delays in receiving, processing and the payment of invoices related to education support, healthcare and housing. The invoices for healthcare support had started to flow. Compensation for injuries was mainly related to assessments concluded towards the end of the previous quarter.

(Please see attached presentation for details.)

Discussion

Mr T Mmutle (ANC) asked for clarity on the continuous engagements on skills development. The presentation had mentioned only SANLAM -- could the Committee could be told of the other state institutions that were involved so that it would know more about the training. What progress had been made on the Logical Information System (LOGIS)? What was the rationale behind the training of staff, and was there any intention of employing those that attend these training sessions?

Mr S Marais (DA) said that there were parts of the presentation that did not make sense and were difficult to understand. He referred the Committee to slide 7 of the presentation and asked for clarity on the percentages because he did not understand the formula that was used, and the figures were not accurate. He was concerned about how the figures were calculated -- the figures of how much had been spent and the available balance did not add up.

Ms Zintle Gcasamba, Chief Financial Officer (CFO), DMV, responded to the concerns raised by Mr Marais and said that the formula used was correct. She was the one who had done the calculations and she was willing to share more information with the Committee. She also clarified that the slides that were being referred to by Mr Marais had been updated, the figures did not have to add up to 100 %, and the methodology used was correct.

The Chairperson asked for clarity on the total amount that had been spent from the budget, and how much was still available.

Ms Gcasamba asked the Chairperson if she could be allowed to revisit her calculations and provide the Committee with a detailed response before the end of the meeting.

Mr Marais was of the view that the amounts must be adjusted in the presentation because they did not tally with the original budget.

Ms Gcasamba concurred with Mr Marais and said that some of the information might not have been available because it took time to get all the information from Treasury.

Mr Marais commented on the enquiries by military veterans and said that more pressure was likely directed to the DMV. What were the Minister's views on tackling the matter? Military veterans had been struggling to communicate with the DMV, but in most instances where the Committee had intervened there had been positive results.

The Chairperson asked if Mr Marais would stick to budget questions so that the matter could be dealt with and Members could have an opportunity to deal with other matters.

Mr Marais responded by saying that he was finished with his questions.

The Chairperson asked about the COVID-19 grant. He wanted to know how the military veterans were selected and how many had benefited from the grant. His second question was about the transfers and subsidies -- who had also benefited from this programme, and could more information be provided to the Committee?

Ms A Beukes (ANC) was concerned about the under-spending of the DMV because it had a direct impact on the Department. She asked if there were any plans to address the lack of capacity because it had a negative impact on the overall performance of the Department. Was there a process to monitor how the DMV was responding to the queries raised by military veterans?

DMV's response

Ms Irene Mpolweni, Director-General, DMV, said the Department had engaged various institutions for skills development, and this included the State Information and Technology Agency (SITA). It had an understanding with the SITA, and considering that the Department had been operating manually, this was a positive move. They had a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with the SITA to make sure that everything ran smoothly.

The Chairperson asked Ms Mpolweni to mention the other entities that were working together with the DMV.

Ms Mpolweni said they were MTN, the University of South Africa (UNISA) and Microsoft. Military veterans would receive basic training so that they could connect with the Department and have access to information. The programme was at an advanced stage at the provincial level, and there had been communications with the South African Local Government Association (SALGA) and technical and vocational education and training (TVET) colleges to have military veterans trained.

Ms Gcasamba responded to the question about the LOGIS system. She said it had been a challenge and they had appointed a team, but human resources (HR) still needed to appoint a dedicated employee for LOGIS considering the DMV's limited capacity. It was working with the Auditor General of South Africa (AGSA) on how they could improve their performance and also get clean audits. The DMV was aware of the importance of digitalising the Department, and they were doing their best despite the challenges.

The Chairperson asked when the LOGIS system had been implemented by the DMV.

Ms Gcasamba said that LOGIS was a government system that must be used by all departments, and it must have been acquired when the Department was established. She added that this needed to be verified since she had joined the Department only in 2019.

The Chairperson asked for comments from the Director-General on how HR was working on assisting the Department.

Ms Mpolweni responded that they were doing their best, and she had instructed HR that vacancies must be filled, especially all the critical positions. There had been some improvements, and they were consolidating all the positions, and more advertisements would be placed soon.

Mr Mmutle said that he was not satisfied with how the questions had been answered, because he wanted to know what the DMV was doing to make sure that military veterans were fully trained, and the DG had not given the timeframes. It did not help to offer training to military veterans on how to use technological gadgets, but not give them any gadgets. He was also of the view that the DG should provide more information on the skills developments partnerships, especially the programmes that would result in the employment and empowerment of military veterans.

Ms Mpolweni responded that the programmes included the tools of trade and military veterans would be taken to the training centres so that they could use the tools. The comprehensive programme was there to provide further training so that military veterans could be in contact with the DMV and could also look for other opportunities. There were opportunities at the South African National Roads Agency Limited (SANRAL) for military veterans, but the obstacle was the lack of tools of trade for them. The DMV was working closely with SANRAL so that they could provide more support to the veterans when it came to equipment. The MoU would ensure that comprehensive training would be provided to military veterans. The sustainability of military veterans was dependent on their willingness to start their own businesses, but the DMV was also there to help them to work on other projects.

Ms Gcasamba told the Committee that DMV was dealing with the burial transfers and housing issues.

Mr Siyengo said that the military veterans who benefited from the COVID-19 grant had to be accepted by the South African Social Security Agency (SASSA), and they would provide the DMV with the proof of approval so that they would receive the R850 top-up from the DMV. 1 125 military veterans had benefited from the top-up of the grant.

He said the Department had introduced two interventions to help deal with the concerns raised by military veterans, and administrators had been employed. They also attended management meetings so that they were up to date on how these matters could be resolved timeously. A team had been put together for support because of the manual system, and they took the details of all the military veterans that visited the Department and did follow-ups to check if they had been assisted. The register was available for the Committee.

Mr Marais asked how regularly the Minister received updates from the DMV, and if there had been any interventions from her side on how to deal with the matters raised. Complaints from military veterans were on the increase, and he asked for a comment, especially about the Cape Town office. He also wanted a comment on the pensions matter, because the budget cuts were going to affect a lot of programmes. Had there been any developments on the health matters of military veterans?

The Chairperson suggested that the questions raised by Mr Marais be addressed after the presentations by the DMV.

Mr Marais did not object to the Chairperson's suggestion but added that the DMV should provide a comment on the urgent matters that were related to the budget.

The Chairperson asked the DMV team to continue with the presentation.

Progress with finalisation and updating of services and benefits policies.

Mr Siyengo said the purpose of this presentation was to update the Committee on the finalisation and updating of policies on all services and benefits, especially the subsidised public transport, pension, housing and education benefits.

DMV officials had been taken through a policy and capacity development programme in the previous financial year. The process of approval had been streamlined and improved, based on lessons learned. Issues to be considered included how the amendment of the Bill would have an impact on some of the policies. Challenges that had been experienced in the past years had to be considered, with some requiring an amendment of the Bill and a review of the regulations, and the alignment of the DMV policies with government policies, especially those of the departments with the relevant mandates. Recent developments required some policy positions to be reviewed. Consultation with the relevant sister departments and provinces had proved to be very important.

On the housing project, the Department had been guided mostly by the regulations of 2014 in the implementation of the benefit. Discussions and consultations had been ongoing with the Department of Human Settlements and the provinces over a number of years. A draft policy should be finalised for further consultation with the Ministry before the end of the financial year.

Several engagements with the Department of Transport (DoT) had been held in 2020, and a pilot project had been planned. However, guidance was provided that the policy must be fully implemented upon its approval, to avoid causing conflict among military veterans. A desktop exercise to benchmark from other countries with similar programmes for MVs had been done in 2021. The DMV's research unit would further analyse the current public transport system in the country

Further consultation with the DoT was required, as it had been established that there various distinct layers in the country’s public sector transport system.

Lessons learnt from the development of the Pension policy highlighted a need for a relevant multi-stakeholder forum to be set up. Some provinces were already looking at possible mechanisms to start implementing this benefit. Lessons learnt in these exercises would add value to the process

It was anticipated that the development and finalisation of the subsidised transport policy would still be ongoing in the 2022/23 financial year because of the complicated layers of the public transport system.

(Please see attached document for details)

Discussion

Mr Marais appreciated that most of the issues were covered by the presentation, but wanted to know what the Committee should do regarding complaints --  was there a specific person they could contact to get assistance for military veterans? Who was in charge of the housing project for military veterans and to what extent was the DMV involved? Should military veterans go to a military doctor before being referred to a private doctor?

Mr W Mafanya (EFF) referred Members to the keynote address by the Minister. It had come across that she had picked up some issues, especially in the Military Veterans Amendment Bill, and these needed to be attended to as soon as possible. He said that military veterans had been complaining since 2011, and this had been noticed by them confronting the Minister last year. There was a need for the Department to provide timeframes so that progress could be monitored. He had not found any new information in the presentations.

Mr M Shelembe (DA) appreciated the fact that the recommendations were being attended to by DMV, but there was more that needed to be done because what was in the Act was not being implemented currently. He asked for a comment on an article that spoke about employment opportunities at the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa (PRASA) for those who were serving as non-statutory forces, and if this meant that military veterans would be sidelined again. Were there any clauses that were protecting military veterans?

Mr Mutle was worried by some of the responses that had been given to the Committee when it came to the HR challenges. He said that there was a reactionary stance when they filled vacancies. He was concerned about the lack of capacity and asked for a comment from the Minister.

DMV's response

Ms Xolisa Morolo, Acting DDG: Socio-Economic Support Services and Chief Director: Health and Wellness, DMV, responded to the question raised by Mr Marais and said that military veterans could access public healthcare facilities. When it came to private healthcare, they needed to have a referral, because the Department did not have a network of doctors and the custodian of healthcare services was the South African Medical Service (SAMS).

Mr Siyengo said that a process had been undertaken on the development of the amendment bill, and there had been engagements with the stakeholders. The DMV had incorporated the inputs and they had had to highlight everything so that they could get approval from the ministry. It was still a lengthy process, but the Committee would be updated before the bill was published for public comments. Due to the lack of capacity, the process had been taking a long time, and they were looking at completing everything by July this year.

Ms Mpolweni told the Committee that the DMV had been struggling with the capacity issue in HR and had directed their attention to this department. They had appointed a deputy director who would deal with the matters raised by Members and were looking forward to seeing positive changes. They were working on improving the HR department so that they could meet their targets. They were also looking at balancing the performance of the Department. The DMV would consider the Committee's feedback.

Mr Marais asked for a comment on who dealt with complaints at the DMV.

Ms Mpolweni said that a flier had been printed, and they were working on the call centre. The Committee would be given more information on the procedure when everything was in place.

Ms Gcasamba responded to Mr Marais' question about the methodology used for the figures in the presentation and said that the figures were correct and that there were no mistakes.

The Chairperson said the Committee was not happy with the percentage of spending by the DMV because they had not managed to meet their targets. It meant that they must spend 52% of the budget in the last quarter, which was an unachievable task. He was concerned about the lack of service, because some military veterans were living in poor conditions, and they could do better with the support of the Department. Promises made to military veterans must be fulfilled because it did not paint a good picture of the Department. Under-spending had an impact on the budget of the DMV because it led to budget cuts. He cautioned that there must be no fiscal dumping and if money could not be spent in this quarter, it was better to return it to the Treasury. He encouraged the DMV to make sure that they came up with ways that benefited military veterans, especially in these tough times.

The Chairperson asked the Deputy Minister to give his comments on the presentations and the matters raised by Members.

Ministerial remarks

Mr Thabang Makwetla, Deputy Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, told the Committee that the meeting was important, and the issues raised were being attended to. It was necessary to meet with Treasury because there were pressing matters that had to be attended to, and Members would be updated on how those engagements proceed.

With the issues of irregularity within the Department, the ministry was overdoing its tasks and had come across as if it wanted to micromanage the Department, which was a negative impression. The ministry had had meetings with the DG and the Department, although some of the meetings with the DG had clashed with other engagements. It had also been difficult to engage with the DMV's management, and in most cases, there had not been much progress on what had been agreed to. As a result, the ministry had given the Department more time to meet certain targets.

The Deputy Minister said that it was important for the Committee to know that interventions by the Department had been fruitful. Employees still needed to attend training on how to use some of the systems so that the integration programmes would run smoothly. One problem area that had been highlighted was the training of military veterans because this had to be separated from the training of DMV employees. The reason for this was that training for military veterans had to be conducted based on need so that it could benefit the military veterans, and also so the desired results could be achieved. The training had to be done by many institutions and the DMV had to decide who they could approach to provide such training -- they did not have to rely entirely on SITA. Some military veterans did not fit into the different initiatives, and there must be a process to decide on how they were short-listed for such training. In some instances, some military veterans were not in a position to use machinery to repair potholes, and this meant that the training interventions had to consider these things.

The Committee had heard that there had been no clear communication stating that the benefits being received by military veterans were the ones to which they were entitled because they had been certified as bona fide on the database. Deputy Minister Makwetla said that the delivery of housing was important, but the question never asked was who was receiving the houses, because there needed to be a conversation to determine who was in the military serving the country, it was not an easy task, but it had to be done. There must never be any discriminatory policies amongst military veterans, and the Department must be in a position to understand what they were supposed to provide. The programme with PRASA was an economic rehabilitation initiative, and all military veterans should be able to benefit from such programmes.

Deputy Minister Makwetla said that they had not managed to release most of the funds for the COVID-19 relief fund, and as a result, most military veterans still needed to benefit because of the administrative delays, as the Department was relying on few social workers. He concluded by saying that the Department had not yet done much about providing services to military veterans and that there was a need to sign an MoU for health services. It was a matter that had to be dealt with urgently.

Ms Thandi Modise, Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, said that there was an agreement between herself and the Deputy Minister on delegating the duties of the Department to the DM. Although there was a delegation of powers, she knew that she had to be in touch with everything within the Department. She had meetings with the Department and was looking forward to receiving information and documentation that had to be submitted to her. She had not yet been updated on any current court cases. There was a tendency towards an ad hoc approach when it came to reports from the Department.

On the matter of housing, Minister Modise said that there must be an agreement between the ministries on how this should be done. The DG did not respond to Parliament when things go wrong because it was the executive that faced the music. She was concerned about the fact that the CFO was presenting matters that the ministry was not aware of because they had not been briefed on them. She did not have a level of satisfaction from the Department, and this needed to be fixed. She was concerned about programmes that were introduced and had serious financial implications but had not been cleared by the ministry, and this made it difficult to have constructive discussions with the Committee.

Minister Modise said there was a need for some changes in the approach on how to determine who became a military veteran. It was also important to get people to understand the mandate and the task of the state towards military veterans. She was working on having a retreat for stakeholders so that they could discuss some of the issues that were affecting the Department. She wanted to be hands-on with the Department, and not act as an administrator.

The Minister reminded Members of a case where a general had received around R50 000 for his pension, yet there was someone who had a lower rank and received more because he was making more contributions, and this was one of the reasons why the Department had been created to make sure that there was no discrimination in such cases, and that resources were channeled to those who needed them without creating favoritism amongst the forces. She said some issues needed to be discussed and dealt with, especially the housing issue.

The meeting was adjourned.