(Subcommittee) SABC Board: Interviews day 4
Communications and Digital Technologies
16 September 2022
Chairperson: Mr B Maneli (ANC)
Meeting Summary
In the final day of interviews, the Subcommittee interviewed ten shortlisted candidates for the SABC board: Ms Thandeka Gqubule-Mbeki, Mr Lance Rothschild, Mr Kingdom Moshounyane, Dr Oscar Van Heerden, Ms Fundiswa Skweyiya-Gushu, Ms Yvonne Yolelwa Sikhunyana, Mr Zolani Matthews, Ms Magdalene Moonsamy, Ms Mandisa Titi and Ms Lindiwe Jacqueline Maepa.
Committee Members were interested to know if candidates possessed the ability to handle the influence exerted by various stakeholders such as the shareholder and Parliament, and ensure independence, and prevent political interference while at the same time maintaining cordial relations.
The interview process shed light on issues that concerned Members such as the significant loss of audience for the SABC, the irregular sacking of the SABC head of news, the SABC being R600 million in the red and the R800 million unspent for content creation. Candidates were also asked to comment on the skills gap as a result of the massive sacking which had taken place at the SABC. There was an emphasis from Members to know if candidates were able to come up with practical solutions to solve the SABC’s woes. These included proposed strategies to end corrupt practices and to improve SABC revenue and content.
Committee Members raised controversies surrounding some of the candidates particularly political affiliation; resignation prior to a disciplinary process; departure from key positions, and repeating Stratcom allegations. It was clear that MPs of all parties were sensitive about political party influence and point scoring.
Meeting report
The Chairperson said the meeting was a continuation of the interviews of candidates for the SABC Board. The Committee noted the withdrawal of the candidate, Ms Nwabisa Matyumza, who explained that the appointment would constitute a potential conflict of interest with her employer, MultiChoice. After consulting with her line manager and the human resource department, she retracted her application.
At the start of each interview, the Chairperson explained the Committee’s mandate in line with the rules of the National Assembly and the Constitution, the proportional representation of political parties on the interview subcommittee and the purpose of the interview. The Chairperson said that the candidate should treat this process as more of a conversation rather than a formal interview and would be about 45 minutes. Every candidate would be given five minutes to introduce themselves which give them an opportunity to indicate the skills, experience and expertise they would bring to the SABC board. The candidate should bear in mind that Committee Members have already reviewed the CV. Each question and answer would be allotted five minutes. The Chairperson would ask questions only for clarity. Lastly, the candidate would be given three minutes to give their own concluding remarks.
At the end of each interview, the Chairperson noted the procedural steps after the interviews. He assured the candidate that the Committee Secretariat was always available for administrative queries and thanked him for participating in the interview. He assured the candidate that the process was transparent and that the candidate may follow the Committee engagements with the other candidates on the digital platform.
See video recording for the interviewee responses.
Candidate 1: Ms Thandeka Gqubule-Mbeki
Ms D Kohler Barnard (DA) sought clarity from the candidate’s opening remark, where she mentioned that she wanted to see ‘the state and the public broadcaster come together’.
Ms Kohler Barnard sought details about the candidate’s resignation as the SABC economic editor. She noted that the candidate’s resignation had been surrounded with several disciplinary charges which allegedly included intimidation towards a colleague, offensive language, and violation of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA). She asked why the candidate had not subjected herself to the independent disciplinary inquiry or sought to challenge the decision at CCMA or in court. In the absence of the candidate’s defence, she had no choice but to believe in the bona fide evidence of the SABC.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC if appointed as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s opinion on the SABC’s drop in listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes, whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation which remained unused. This was happening in the background of an extremely competitive environment for the SABC. She asked what the candidate’s plan would be to turn the entity around financially.
Ms Kohler Barnard indicated the corruption at the SABC as highlighted by the Zondo Commission and asked the candidate to provide solutions to address this.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff with no training provided to them.
Dr M Basopu (ANC) noted the candidate’s explanation for why she resigned from the SABC but asked why she had decided to return to the entity.
Dr Basopu said that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and recover the public funds that had been squandered.
Dr Basopu asked the candidate to give an indication of how she would harmoniously manage the relationships with the people that she had fought with at the SABC. He asked the candidate to take the Committee into confidence if her presence there would not create unnecessary tension.
Ms Kohler Barnard was uncomfortable hearing the candidate’s justification of herself without subjecting herself to due processes. She pointed out that this Committee was not a panel to determine such matters.
Ms Y Yako (EFF) said she was certainly unconvinced by the candidate’s explanation for why she decided to return to the SABC after the fallout.
Ms Yako asked if the candidate was part of the Stratcom unit established by the apartheid government to discredit liberation heroes such as Winnie Mandela. She asked from where the candidate thought the allegation stemmed and if it had any merit. She questioned if the candidate's alleged association with Stratcom would undermine the public confidence in the SABC given that the broadcaster was already facing accusations of censorship and partisanship.
Ms A Mthembu (ANC) asked, if appointed, what the candidate would do to uplift the financial standing of the SABC, address its underspending and contain its irregular expenditure.
Mr L Molala (ANC) noted the positive mention of the BBC and agreed that the BBC's financial sustainability model is something that the SABC could learn from. However, the BBC’s mandate is more of a government spokesperson which is not applicable in the South African context.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to indicate how she could use the SABC as a key driver in the nation building process to build one national identity and promote social cohesion. He felt that South Africans have been increasingly segregated since 1994 and believed the SABC could play a huge role in bringing the nation together.
Mr Molala said a key governance issue at the SABC is managing the various vested interests of the shareholder, the board, Parliament, political parties and the public. He asked how the candidate would manage those relationships without causing fights and divisions.
Mr Molala reiterated that he disagreed that the BBC model would work in South Africa. He emphasised the importance of editorial independence for a public broadcaster. Editorial independence means that the team should have no political view and their loyalty should lie with South Africans. The Committee’s observation is most of the current editorial team and SABC board members are somehow aligned to a political party however subtle that affiliation might be.
Ms Yako was concerned that what the candidate had proposed in her response would constitute interference in the SABC day-to-day operations if she were appointed to the board.
Candidate 2: Mr Lance Rothschild
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s extensive experience in radio programming, marketing and management as well as his success in having increased the revenues of various radio stations with one radio station increasing its revenue from R6.5 million to R65 million. She asked how the candidate could use that experience to grow the SABC’s revenue.
Ms Kohler Barnard highlighted the neglect of community radio platform and asked the candidate’s take on the inclusion of such an opportunity as a developmental factor at the SABC.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate about his view of the sacking of the SABC’s head of news who was exonerated by the CCMA.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s axing of various programmes like Special Assignment as well as the drop in listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes, whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what particular skill set he could contribute to the SABC board.
Ms Kohler Barnard followed up and asked about the selling of SABC commercial stations.
Ms Yako did not have a question for the candidate.
The Chairperson asked the candidate, if appointed, what preventative measures he would put in place to scotch the corrupt practices as revealed by the Zondo Commission.
Candidate 3: Mr Kingdom Moshounyane
Dr Basopu asked the candidate what skill set he could contribute to the SABC board. Further, what strategies did the candidate have to turn the entity around?
Dr Basopu said that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and recover the public funds that had been squandered?
Ms Kohler Barnard stated that the Committee is looking for a well-rounded board with board members with various skills and expertise. Given the candidate’s expertise, what would the candidate drive to boost the enthusiasm of the arts community?
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence fighting for more coverage in the media space.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked how the candidate planned to deal with the drop in listenership and viewership due to the lack of content in its programmes, whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused. She asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them.
Ms Mthembu said that her question had been responded to. She encouraged the candidate to ensure that the SABC remained a giant in the media space should he be appointed to the board.
The Chairperson asked how the candidate would ensure the independence of the SABC but also maintain the relationships with all external stakeholders such as the shareholder, administration, political parties, etc.
Candidate 4: Dr Oscar van Heerden
Mr Molala noted the candidate’s identity as a writer and political activist and asked him to identify his contribution to the transition from apartheid to democratic SABC. He asked the candidate to indicate any of his publications that influenced current legislation.
Mr Molala asked the candidate how he planned to use the SABC as a key driver in the nation building process to build one national identity and promote social cohesion. He felt that South Africans are becoming increasingly segregated since 1994 and believed that the SABC could play a huge role in bringing the nation together.
Mr Molala asked for the candidate's strategic approach to ensure the independence of the SABC editorial team, given that many South Africans have been politicised.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate to distinguish the difference between a state and a public broadcaster.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what sort of programmes he had in mind to attract more audience given that there is R800 million designated for content production that was not being utilised.
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the absence of the common skills which people at the SABC should have such as journalism, marketing, broadcasting, etc. She thus asked what role the candidate believed he could play on the SABC board.
Dr Basopu said that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and recover the public funds that had been squandered?
Mr V Pambo (EFF) noted the candidate’s high involvement with ANC work and he had intensively participated in the elections of the ANC. He questioned if he chose to apply to the SABC board as a deployee of the ANC to do its bidding. He was uncomfortable with a candidate of such nature joining the SABC since the entity is clouded by political interference and bias.
Mr Pambo followed up and asked if the candidate had ever sat with the SABC board trying to push the ANC agenda during election time. He asked if he was ever aware of or had come across ANC members or high-ranking officials trying to influence the SABC.
The Chairperson asked for more clarity on the SIU investigation around the candidate.
Candidate 5: Ms Fundiswa Skweyiya-Gushu
Ms Mthembu asked for the candidate's financial turnaround strategy for the SABC, if appointed, as well as her strategy to deal with the challenges of underspending and mismanagement of funds so as to uplift the standards of the institution.
Mr Molala asked for the candidate's assessment of the SABC's governance challenge.
Mr Molala asked the candidate what proposals she had for the SABC to play a critical role in the nation building process to build one national identity and promote social cohesion. He felt that South Africans are becoming more and more divided since 1994 as evidenced by the rising racism and gender-based violence. He believed that the SABC could play a huge role in bringing the nation together.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s understanding of the roles of a state entity and a public broadcaster since she noted that the candidate had referred to the SABC as a state entity.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom and extra pressure on the journalists. She highlighted the sacking of its former head of news.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them. Linked to that was the lack of content production at the SABC whilst the entity had R800 million designated for that purpose that remained unused. She asked the candidate to discuss how she would deal with such a matter, if appointed.
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s strong involvement in the ANC and clarified that she would say the same thing should the candidate be involved with any other political party such as the DA and EFF. The involvement with a political party makes it hard to convince her that the candidate would be a fair and impartial person for a public broadcaster. She emphasised that from years of experience, she observed that politicians and public broadcasters do not go together.
Mr Pambo asked the candidate to juxtapose how an individual can be a member of a political party whilst claiming that she is not a politician.
Mr Pambo was not satisfied with the candidate’s response. He asked if being a political party member means that she shares its ideological affiliation. It would be very difficult for the candidate to balance the two elements – on the one side, she is a member of the ANC but on the other side, she has to be neutral and apolitical if appointed. He asked if she had ever criticised the ANC. He reminded the candidate that the ANC constitution explicitly stated that an ANC member could not publicly criticise the organisation but rather should address such issues internally. The candidate would be in a catch-22 situation. Should she criticise the ANC and stay true to her allegiance to the public broadcaster, she would be an ill-disciplined ANC member; should she not criticise the ANC in public, she would be betraying her oath of office to the public broadcaster.
Mr Pambo believed that it is unconvincing and difficult for candidates with political affiliations to be a board member of a public broadcaster. The last thing the Committee wanted to see was for the SABC to be a mouthpiece of the ANC.
Mr Pambo reiterated that his concern was important because Members needed to ascertain if candidates would be able to stay impartial. This year there is already bias in the SABC as the party elective conferences of other political parties, such as the EFF, had not been covered extensively as those of the ANC. He found the candidate disingenuous that she should ask Members to overlook her political affiliation.
Mr Pambo followed up and asked if the candidate had ever campaigned for the ANC, attended ANC meetings, etc. Since the candidate affirmed that she had attended ANC meetings, those meetings were political in nature and inevitably, she would use the SABC board to advance the interests of the ANC.
Dr Basopu expressed concern that his organisation, the ANC, was being attacked. Since this was being broadcast, it was not good for the public to hear that the ANC was a mess.
The Chairperson clarified that the attack was not about attacking the ANC specifically. Rather it considered the whole process of State Capture in which the SABC was implicated as one of those captured institutions. Hence, Members asked such questions to ensure that candidates would be impartial if appointed to the board. He added that Members who were not of the ANC would inevitably highlight this issue as it was being livestreamed to the public.
Mr Molala agreed with Dr Basopu in principle but encouraged Members to focus on the work to recommend candidates for the SABC. The Committee had worked well over the past three years and had never fought over party politics.
Candidate 6: Ms Yvonne Yolelwa Sikhunyana
Ms Kohler Barnard noted that the candidate did not have much experience in communication, electronic media, and so on but rather, her experience was exclusively confined to the legal sphere. She asked the candidate to indicate if that was the only skill which she would bring to the SABC board.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes she would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom and extra pressure on the journalists.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked for the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them. As a result, there is a significant drop in the SABC’s listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes; whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused. She requested the candidate provide a strategy to deal with the matter.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to provide constructive inputs on content and governance to turn around the SABC.
Mr Molala asked how the candidate could use the SABC as a key driver in the nation building process to build one national identity and promote social cohesion. He felt that South Africans are becoming more and more segregated since 1994 and believed that the SABC could play a huge role in bringing the nation together.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of the interface between the Portfolio Committee, the SABC shareholder, SABC employees, the South African public, and so on as all stakeholders would want to influence the SABC. He was interested to know how the candidate would manage those relationships.
Candidate 7: Mr Zolani Matthews
Dr Basopu asked the candidate why he was interested in a position on the SABC board.
Dr Basopu said that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and recover the public funds that had been squandered.
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s experience at the South African Post Office (SAPO). She asked when he was specifically in the employment of the SAPO given the numerous challenges SAPO currently faced, such as the missing R700 million.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom and add extra pressure on the journalists. How would he protect those journalists and prevent undue influence?
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s opinion on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them. This inevitably led to the SABC’s drop in listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes; whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused. This was happening against the background of an extremely competitive environment for the SABC. She asked what the candidate’s plan would be to turn the entity around financially.
Ms Kohler Barnard indicated that corruption at the SABC was highlighted by the Zondo Commission and asked the candidate to provide solutions to address this.
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the exceptional managerial positions which the candidate had held, she was interested to know how the candidate would propose to turn the SABC around financially given that the entity was currently R600 million in debt.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to explain why he had left PRASA. He also asked why he had left the Post Office. The Committee felt it was important to understand such things so that they would have an idea of what to anticipate.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of the interface between the Portfolio Committee, the shareholder, SABC employees, the South African public, and so on, as all stakeholders would want to influence the SABC. He was interested to know how the candidate would strategically manage those relationships. It was critical to maintain good relationships with all those stakeholders, as one unhappy stakeholder could affect the stability of the entity.
Mr Molala asked the candidate to indicate how he could use the SABC as a key driver in the nation building process to build one national identity and promote social cohesion. He felt that South Africans are becoming more and more segregated since 1994 and believed that the SABC could play a huge role in bringing the nation together.
The Chairperson noted the candidate’s response about having left PRASA to seek greener pastures. However, he pointed out that the stability of an institution such as the SABC was very important and asked the candidate to take the Committee into confidence that such an issue would not repeat itself again.
Candidate 8: Ms Magdalene Moonsamy
Dr Basopu asked the candidate what skills she could bring to the SABC board and how she would turn the entity around. He asked her why she believed she was the right candidate for the position.
Ms Kohler Barnard was unconvinced that the candidate could be an impartial board member at the SABC given the candidate’s heavily involved political trajectory. The candidate had quit the EFF after having been the party’s MP in 2016 and 2017. The candidate now seemed to be involved with the ANC. Given such a complicated political background, she questioned if she would still be impartial or whether or not she would say acrimonious things about the EFF or any other political parties which she disagreed with politically.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate about her view of the sacking of the SABC head of news who was exonerated by the CCMA.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom and add extra pressure on the journalists.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s opinion on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them. This inevitably led to the SABC’s drop in listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused. She asked what the candidate would propose to turn the SABC around, particularly financially as the entity was R600 million in debt.
Mr Pambo asked the candidate if she was a member of the ANC. If the answer was yes, he asked if she could be impartial as a board member of the public broadcaster.
Ms Mthembu indicated that her question was covered by other Members.
The Chairperson asked the candidate to indicate how she would strategically manage the relationships with numerous stakeholders such as the Parliament, the executive, the board, the shareholder and so on whilst maintaining its independence.
Mr Molala was experiencing a network challenge so was unable to ask his question.
Candidate 9: Ms Mandisa Titi
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s short-term work experience at the SABC in 1993 to 1994 and then in 1996 again. She asked about the nature of her employment contracts and why she would not want to return to the entity full-time.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked about the candidate’s turnaround strategy for the SABC as the entity was R600 million in debt.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked what the candidate would do to deal with the corruption at the SABC as revealed by the Zondo Commission.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training. She described the situation as bizarre and asked the candidate how the board should have handled the matter.
Ms Kohler Barnard followed up and described the SABC's darkest days under Hlaudi Motsoeneng. It should be a prime example of why cadre deployment should not be practised. Thus she was particularly interested to know how the candidate would prevent such appointments being made again.
Dr Basopu confessed that this platform was a learning curve and appreciated the candidate’s articulate vision to change the SABC.
Dr Basopu asked the candidate to take Members into confidence that, if appointed, she would not be clashing with those people like Motsoeneng in the SABC and how the candidate planned to deal with them.
Candidate 10: Ms Lindiwe Jacqueline Maepa
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate about her view of the sacking of the SABC head of news who was exonerated by the CCMA, but instead of being reinstated, was paid off.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes the candidate would make to the SABC, if appointed, as election time would inevitably bring undue influence in the newsroom.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the SABC’s sacking of 600 employees with its subsequent loss of expertise and its replacement with 400 new staff but with no training provided to them.
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate’s thoughts on the drop in listenership and viewership caused by a lack of content in its programmes whereas the SABC has R800 million designated for content creation that remained unused. This implied that many local performers, artists and content producers are sitting at home unemployed, whereas the unused R800 million could have been utilised.
Meeting adjourned.
Audio
No related
Documents
Present
-
Maneli, Mr BM Chairperson
ANC -
Basopu, Dr M
ANC -
Kohler, Ms D
DA -
Majozi, Ms Z
IFP -
Mohlala, Ms MR
EFF -
Molala, Mr LE
ANC -
Mthembu, Ms AH
ANC -
Pambo, Mr V
EFF
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