Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 08 Jun 2022

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022
Watch: Plenary
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The SPEAKER: I am sorry, the Deputy President. Hon Mkhaliphi, on the virtual platform, you have your hand up.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Speaker. There is a very terrible noise coming from there. I think the IT must check because we couldn’t hear you.
The SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you very much. IT, will you please check that? Hon Deputy President, you may take your seat whilst we are checking. IT, you are given two minutes, check.
May we proceed. Hon Mkhaliphi, can you hear me now?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, speaker we hear you but the noise is still there. Maybe they can work on it.

The SPEAKER: Noise?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes. There is a terrible feedback coming from that ... Yes.
The SPEAKER: Hon members? IT, is everything okay at the back?
Can we proceed now. [Interjections.] Thank you. Hon Gungubela, you had your hand up. [Interjections.] Okay. It seems, hon members, we are okay now. We proceed. Hon Deputy President?

QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 7:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
According to the President's response, Ministers and Deputy Ministers have signed performance agreements.
The President appoints the Deputy President and Ministers and delegate responsibilities to them, and has the power to remove them, as stated in section 91(2) of the Constitution.
Hon Speaker, the performance agreements are meant to enable the President and the respective Ministers and Deputy Ministers, to effectively evaluate the assigned responsibility and to identify areas of concern.
The current system is not determined to provide for the signing of performance agreement between the President and the Deputy President, whom you know very well, is appointed to assist the President in the execution of the functions of government in accordance with section 91(5) of the Constitution.
However, the work of the Deputy President is evaluated against the responsibility that have been delegated by the President from time to time. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy President, performance agreements of the Ministers are meant to gauge and assess their performance within the portfolio to resume according to your response. But in order for this to be effective continuous assessment must be done so that nonperforming members of the executive can be
removed from their positions either assessment must be made public for transparency but it does not seem to be the case since it carry the commitment to have this done since 2019 was
near ...

In addition to this the key function as you stated as the Deputy President and the President you have to lead the country in the interest of national unity in accordance with the Constitution and the law. So, based on the constitutional responsibilities that the two of you have would you agree that the admission by the President that millions of dollars in a private property was stolen and not reported to the criminal justice system will
cast doubt on his ability to uphold the rule of law which is his responsibility and yours which is central to your role and his ability to manage the Cabinet.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Well, it is correctly said that the performance agreements that we signed between the President and the Ministers, Deputy Ministers are meant to evaluate performance. And of course, the outcome of that evaluation is communicated to the relevant Minister and the relevant Deputy Minister. So, the President does that from time to time. I have never seen an incident where the President will do it public. It will be between the President and the respective Minister after that performance assessment.

 
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The question that you are raising now about the development of
the issues surround the farm robbery in the President’s place
are things that has been reported to the police and I take it
that we should allow the respective law enforcement agencies
to investigate without our interference. And finally, made
their investigation known. If they want to charge the
President, they will do so at a proper time. So, I think we
should allow that process to unfold. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Deputy President.
[Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Order!
[Interjections.] Order! Hon Gwarube? [Interjections.] If I may
raise this matter ... [Interjections.] ... No, no, no, would
you please listen. I may raise this matter - your follow up
question had absolutely nothing to do with the question you
initially raised with the Deputy President. I just wish to
draw your attention to that. The second supplementary question
will be asked by the hon F A Masiko through a virtual
platform. Yes.
Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much, Speaker. And thank very
much ...

 
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Mr D W MACPHERSON: What’s that referred to. If one cast the
eye to that procedure for 2004 page 196, 1,3: Its very clear
on what the scope of the questions can be asked to the
President and to the Deputy President. And it is matters that
the individual is responsible for or delegated to.
Now it’s very clear that, the hon Gwarube has raise or follow
up whilst a key part of what the President should or should
not be doing with respect to performance agreement. And that
if there is a question over his integrity or what has or has
not happened in relation to the incident in his farm it causes
doubt on his ability to do that job. So, the follow had
absolutely everything to do with the original question as is
in line with the guide to procedure. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon Dlakude?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Speaker. Hon Speaker, the Rules of the House are
clear. The follow up question must come out from the original
question. So, we cannot as this Members of Parliament sneak in
something that is not on the original question. So, the hon
member knows the Rules better. She is the Deputy Chief Whip of
the Opposition. So, we cannot be opportunistic about bringing

 
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other things that are not necessarily in that question. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Dlakude. Hon member,
would you please take your seat? I did not recognised you.
[Interjections.] Take your seat. I have not recognised you.
Will you please now lower your hand as I address you? Rule
142(6) says a supplementary question must arise directly from
the original question and the reply given that to may not
constitute a new question. That is the Rule. [Applause.] And I
close that matter. Now, the hon Deputy President?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, hon Speaker, I am
waiting for the next follow up supplementary question.
Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. And thank
you, hon Deputy President for your response. Deputy President,
in line with the Constitution of the Republic, the President
has assigned the Deputy President delegated responsibilities
for 2019-24 term of government. This mainly include providing
political leadership as well as to ensure co-ordinate things.
How does the Deputy President ensure that the institution
which apart from its delegated responsibility implement their

programme in according to their mandate? Thank you very much,
hon Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
I think the hon member would appreciate the fact that all the
institutions and the structures that we are co-ordinating they
have their own terms of reference in terms of what they must
perform. Ours as the Office of the Deputy President is just to
co-ordinate the activities so that we achieve the desired
goals speedily and ensure that there is effective service
delivery from time to time.
And after doing our work of co-ordinating the different
departments and institutions we report back to Cabinet about
our activities. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy President, while the Constitution
indicates that the functions of the Deputy President are
determined by the President. Section 90 of the Constitution
provides that should the President be unable to perform his
duties for any reason the Deputy President must be first in
line to assume the responsibilities assigned to the President
by the Constitution.

Taking into account with the latest development of the
difficult criminal clouds hanging over the President now
relating to allegations of money laundering, will you be ready
to assume the responsibilities should he resigned as provided
for in the Constitution in relations to this criminal cloudy
hanging over the President in his head? Will you attempt to
convince him to stay in the office, which not in the country’s
interest? Thank you very much, Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
I don’t think we have reach that point. I don’t think we have
reached any point that seeks to say the President must step
down. All I know is that, a case has been opened and we have
allowed the different institutions of our country to
investigate and make a determination. And beyond that probably
a decision will be taken after a determination has been made
of which we can’t probably jump the gun and say this is going
to be the determination. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy
President, I was a bit confused by the question in the first
instance because the question asked whether you signed
performance agreement with the President? And the answer to
that is no.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes.
Mr N SINGH: You did not sign performance agreement with the
Ministers and Deputy Ministers. But being second in charge,
Deputy President, I am sure you must be aware of the
methodology that used to set performance targets for Ministers
and Deputy Ministers. Are you aware and do you want the
President in setting these targets? And are you satisfied by
that most of them if not all of them are meeting the targets
that have been set for them in their respective departments?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
From where I am sitting I think I am satisfied because I
participate. I participate in all the processes. When the
President is sitting talking to individual Ministers I am also
present in that meeting. When the President is talking to
individual Deputy Ministers I also take part.
So, my duty is to support the President. So, I am quite aware
of all the processes that we have put in place to set this
performance agreement. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Question 8:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
The World Health Assembly agreed at the special session which
was held on 29 November to 01 December 2021, to start a
process of developing and negotiating a treaty on pandemic
prevention, preparedness and response. To this end, an
Intergovernmental Negotiating Body was set up to lead the
negotiations and drafting of the treaty, in consultation with
various stakeholders including Member States and civil society
organisations. Drawing on the lessons that were learnt from
responding to the coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19,
pandemic, the proposed Global Pandemic Treaty will complement
the International Health Regulations. To this end, the
agreement will seek to outline the objectives and fundamental
principles necessary for effective collective actions to fight
against pandemic, address gaps in the current legal framework,
and clarify roles and responsibilities of states and
international organisations, among others.
It is envisaged that this global treaty will, among others,
enhance surveillance of pandemic risks and alerts, ensure
uninterrupted health supplies and services and effective
research and innovation for timely development of vaccines,
treatments and diagnostics, ensure better response mechanisms
and implementation as well as restore trust in the

 
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international health system. Currently, the Intergovernmental
Negotiating Body is conducting consultations with stakeholders
to produce a working draft of the treaty, which is due to be
considered at its meeting later this year. The 76th session of
the World Health Assembly in 2023 will receive a progress
report on the draft treaty, with the plan for the treaty to be
adopted in 2024.
For South Africa, it is crucial that the treaty is anchored on
human rights to ensure equitable access to various available
medical solutions in order to improve the health and well-
being of all our people, irregardless of their social standing
and their geographical location. When it comes to
international agreements, section 231(1) of the Constitution
is clear that the negotiation and signing of all international
agreements is the responsibility of the national executive.
Parliament will have a role in the ratification of the treaty
once concluded, as international agreements become law after
being approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and
the National Council of Provinces. Simply, this means that
international agreements become national law only upon
ratification by Parliament.

 
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Therefore, in this regard, it goes without saying that the
Minister of Health is enjoined by the Constitution to submit
the treaty to Parliament for consideration and approval. Thank
you, hon Speaker.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker and Deputy President.
Public participation in law-making and agreements to any laws
which are to be binding to citizens is a fundamental tenet of
constitutional democracy that should never be ignored. Any law
affecting a country and the right of citizens to self-
determination should be subjected to public scrutiny and
participation as well as parliamentary debates if
constitutional democracy is to be preserved. The ACDP is
grateful to the 47 African countries led by Botswana that
refused to sign amendments to the International Health
Regulations this past week at the World Health Assembly in
Geneva.
My question to you, Deputy President, is whether after public
participation where opinions of citizens would have been
solicited, you will ensure that a clear mandate is obtained
from the National Assembly and given to the Health Minister
and his officials not to sign the proposed amendments to the
International Health Regulations which, among others, would

 
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give additional powers to the World Health Organisation ...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Meshoe, your question please to the Deputy
President. Question please.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Yaa, I’m reading the question now, Speaker.
I said my question to the Deputy President is whether after
public participation where opinions of citizens would have
been solicited, he will ensure that a clear mandate is
obtained from the National Assembly and given to the Health
Minister and his officials not to sign the proposed amendment
to the International Health Relations which, among others,
would give additional powers to the World Health Organisation
to unilaterally decide to impose decisions on nations of the
world thereby undermining their sovereignty. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon
Speaker. I think I’ve answered the question, hon Meshoe, I
said that the Minister of Health is enjoined by the
Constitution after all the consultations and negotiations with
stakeholders to finally bring that report to Parliament for
consideration and approval. Therefore, Parliament will have an
opportunity to deliberate on the report on the proposed treaty

 
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and make amendments where necessary before it becomes law.
That’s what I said.
Mr D L MOELA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Greetings to the Deputy
President and all hon members. Thank you, Deputy President,
for your response especially on section 231 of the
Constitution of the Republic that provides the negotiating and
signing of all international agreements is the responsibility
of the national executive. You have well captured that.
However, further than that, Deputy President, could the Deputy
President outline the consideration that are usually made by
the members of the executive in general when discussing the
international treaties to ensure the advancement of our
national interests. Thank you, hon Speaker and the Deputy
President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
Firstly, as we look at these international treaties as a
country we consider first our national interest. As we discuss
and make proposals we do that in the interests of the country
first. Secondly, we do this to deepen our integration into the
global community. You’ll understand from our past that South
Africa has been excluded in this international bodies, so it’s
important for our participation to deepen our role as a

 
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country and our participation. Thirdly, to ensure that we
protect the human rights of our people following the standards
that we set worldwide. Therefore, we need to set a standard as
a country that will assume the standard of the world. If we
want to be the best, we must compare ourselves with the best.
However, all in all we want to elevate the human rights of our
people noting our past from where we come from, where these
rights were trampled upon by the system that we had to
destroy. Therefore, moving forward we need to elevate these
rights and protect them. So, these are the interests that we
take into consideration as we discuss these treaties and take
part in this international bodies. Thank you very much.
Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you. Good afternoon, Deputy President.
Just in terms of my follow-up question to a certain degree you
have answered the clarity I was seeking. However, I would like
to highlight that clear timeframes are set in terms of the
draft treaty when it comes to Parliament. So, it doesn’t
become an open-ended matter. Therefore, once that draft
document is ready whether you would set clear timeframes for
it to ... [Inaudible.] ... to Parliament so that we don’t have
the same issue we had during Covid where there was no
transparency during Covid period and ... [Inaudible.] ...

 
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corruption was ... [Inaudible.] ... and Parliament had no
oversight during that period of time. Therefore, could you
give that guarantee, Deputy President, I’ll be very happy.
Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much. The
timetable and the timeframes are set by the World Health
Assembly and they have determined exactly when do they want to
conclude this treaty. Therefore, Member States have been given
an opportunity to go and discuss in their states and in their
countries and consulting all stakeholders which I think in the
process you will also be consulted. You’ll have your own
input. However, before anything can happen to this treaty it’s
will be brought back to the House for your ratification and
for your final approval. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Okay, Speaker I will take it as well. Deputy
President, as things stands there is not even a test of the
so-called global pandemic treaty. Therefore, the issue should
not even arise. What is a concern, however, is the vaccine
imperialism that has dominated the global response to the
corona pandemic which firstly, led to Western countries
holding the vaccine and secondly, to these countries of
delegitimising any vaccine development from outside? Why has

 
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this country not acquired vaccine produced in China and Russia
to fight the corona pandemic? Was this due to pressure applied
by Western Nations who want to monopolise the production and
sale of vaccine in the world? Thank you, Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon
Speaker. I think the World Health Organisation has realised
the amount of work that it’s needed to co-ordinate any
pandemic and any outbreak of any pandemic. Now, learning from
the Covid-19 experience, therefore, they’ve decided to put
down a proposal of developing this treaty so that in future we
are better place to manage any pandemic that might arise and
ensure that developing communities and developing countries
are also catered for not like what we’ve seen in this Covid-19
pandemic where developing countries were the last in the queue
in terms of getting their vaccines.
In future we want to avoid this situation so that we are
better prepared that they should be any equitable distribution
of these vaccines and ensure a comprehensive response that
will benefit even developing nations. I think that is the
essence of this treaty, is just to promote working together
and ensure that those that don’t have the resources are also
catered for. Thank you very much.

 
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Question 9:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The destruction to
infrastructure and loss of lives in the floods affected areas,
calls on us to ensure that as we rebuild, we do so better and
differently.
We acknowledge that the current spatial distribution patterns
and water management systems, were not designed to handle
severe natural disasters as experienced in the affected
provinces. This calls for a rigorous re-design of our spatial
arrangements and proper maintenance of our drainage systems to
prevent it from clogging up.
Already, prior to these unfortunate floods, government through
the Department of Water and Sanitation, has already started a
process to investigate potential impact of projected climate
change disasters that are caused by extreme rainfall and
tropical cyclones.
To this end, government has put in place interventions for
post-floods reconstruction of the infrastructure in affected
provinces. A war room by the Department of Water and
Sanitation has been established as part of short-term
interventions to assist vulnerable communities with water

 
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supply and sanitation systems. This will address current
challenges to communities in affected areas, while essential
services are being replaced and repaired.
This Water and Sanitation War Room will in the short-term
ensure the; provision of relief measures to vulnerable
communities through the hired water tankers for a period of 90
days that complement the supply of water to affected
municipalities while water services are restored and
infrastructure repaired; assistance to affected provinces to
implement immediate interventions in order to stabilise water
supply and sanitation systems; and avail engineering services
from the Department of Water and Sanitation as well as from
affected municipalities, to repair or replace essential water
and sanitation services infrastructure so that full water
supply is returned to normality.
The Department of Water and Sanitation has dispatched a team
of multi-disciplinary engineers and technical experts to
assess and cost flood damage.
The team will also prepare a report for the Department of
Water and Sanitation and the National Treasury, which will
include a full cost estimate of the damage caused by the

 
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floods so that adequate resources are allocated to the
rehabilitation projects.
The IMC, Inter-Ministerial Committee on Water and Sanitation
will continue to monitor these projects and ensure that
political oversight is in place to support coordinated efforts
to complete these projects.
In the medium to long-term, particularly for the purposes of
better preparedness in the vulnerable areas, the response will
be to invest in climate-proof infrastructure including climate
sensitive drainage systems.
Furthermore, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency's
technical support services to municipalities will ensure that
spatial allocation is reshaped, resulting in better access to
safer settlements, economic prospects, and long-term
infrastructure provision.
Most importantly, local government will need to communicate
information to populations living in flood-prone areas as well
as provide early warning systems and improved spatial design
that is sensitive to environmental conditions, in order to
build resilience. Thank you hon Speaker.

 
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Mr T V MASHELE: Hon Speaker, there are members in the
opposition benches who are not wearing masks. May you please
request them ask them to comply to the covid protocols.
The SPEAKER: Hon Radebe? Hon Radebe?
Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you hon Speaker. Hon Mashele is drawing t
to your attention that there are members of the opposition who
are not wearing their masks, I’m very pleased she’s wearing
the mask now.
Hon Shaik Emam was not wearing a mask and it is against the
Covid-19 regulations.
Hon Macpherson is not the shop steward of the opposition; he
cannot interject when the ... [Inaudible.] ...than you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order Madam
Speaker. Madam Speaker I rise on a point of order, point 97.
There is a time and place for a point of order. The hon member
stood up and actually called Mr Macpherson “tjatjarag” and
we’ve decided that, that is an unparliamentary word to use in
this House.

 
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But I did not stand up unnecessarily because we have our
Deputy President standing before us. So, let us show some
respect to the Deputy President and not act like children in
the House and respect one another. If you have a problem with
one of my members, please let me know and I will sort it out.
Our Deputy President deserves the respect to answer the
questions. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Thank you hon Mazzone. Hon members, please do not
use the term “tjatjarag” again.
Mr M A TSEKI: Two wrongs do not make a right.
Sesotho:
Ke a leboha motsamaisi wa dipuisano.
Tshiven?a:
Ndaa, Mufarisa Muphuresidennde.
English:
Early warning systems are important if we are about to
mitigate the unknown impact of climate change disaster and our
science and innovation entities such as the space when the

 
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centre of South African Weather Service and other institutions
have those capabilities.
Therefore, drawing from the recent floods, how will government
ensure that affected communities are settled at areas that
will not be flood prone and prohibit those who attempt to
build in flood prone areas?
How will government strengthen its responses, capabilities to
disaster early warning alerts as this has a major impact in
the ability of mitigating the impact?
Sesotho:
Ke a leboha Motlatsi wa Moporesidente.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you hon Speaker.
The hon member will realise that the provincial government and
the municipalities in the area were well prepared for the
second round of flooding, people were evacuated and placed in
areas of safety beforehand.
I think we need to strengthen those institutions and
communication so that we save our people. Going forward we are

 
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going to strengthen our early warning systems and we are able
to reach our people in the far flung areas where there is no
network communication.
We are going to try our best to ensure that we save our people
but as we relocate our people to safer places, we will do so
and ensure that we are not going to rebuild human settlements
in areas that are prone to disasters.
Cash will be taken by both the provincial government as well
as the metros and the municipalities so that this cannot
happen again.
Also, going forward as we build our roads and water
infrastructure, we should take into consideration that one day
there will be floods. We need to place infrastructure that is
better prepared to withstand the changing weather conditions.
Thank you very much.
Mr L J BASSON: Thank you Madam Speaker. Deputy President,
KwaZulu-Natal is still waiting for treasury to cough up
R1 billion for relief funds for the reconstruction of
infrastructure promised by President Cyril Ramaphosa two
months ago.

 
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Durban’s economy has taken a major blow and now the eThekwini
municipality must borrow R500 million to repair the city’s
infrastructure that was damaged by the recent floods. The
damaged infrastructure has led to the decline in revenue and
has the potential of undermining the confidence of current and
future investors and undermining the city’s growth prospect.
eThekwini needs the money to deliver services but government
is not coming to the party and now rate payers must pay for
government’s failure. Deputy President, why must they borrow
money and how are you going to assist the metro to repair the
infrastructure? Thank you Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you hon Deputy
Speaker, from what I know regarding progress that has been
made, a number of departments are already intervening in the
area. I’m aware of the Department of Public Works and
Infrastructure in terms of the bridges in the area, I’m aware
of the work that is done by the Department of Water and
Sanitation, I’m aware of the work that is done by the
Department of Transport just to name a few.
The provincial government is working together with the
National Treasury. The provincial government has been directed

 
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to reprioritise its budget. A number of areas like the
Department of Health has managed to reprioritise money to
repair some of the clinics, Departments of Public Works, Road
and Transport managed to reprioritise money.
So, that is progressing very well and the National Treasury is
working together with the province to identify grants that
were supposed to be meant for the province and those grants
are put aside to support the metros as well as the
municipalities.
That’s the progress that I am able to provide. Speaker, if
possible we can provide a clear account in terms of all the
projects that are undertaken on the ground.
Well, I’m aware that there are still communities that are
still housed in community halls and city halls. The Department
of Human Settlements along with the province are doing
everything possible to build houses for those communities and
in a very short space of time they will be resettled to their
new homes. Thank you very much.
Ms T BREEDT: Thank you Madam Speaker. The great amount of
government resources, money and focus will be spent on the

 
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flood stricken areas of the North West, Eastern Cape and KZN.
The disaster has been devastating and as such, as much as
possible needs to be done to assist.
It is however well known that this Inter-Ministerial Committee
on Water and Sanitation has not only been brought into being
by these most recent floods. Many commitments specifically
sewage related have been made to address and processes have
started in other municipalities regarding water and sanitation
crisis that are not in these affected flood areas.
Hon Deputy President, how will you ensure that these
commitments are not left forgotten and these communities left
exposed to human rights violations due to their need for water
and a healthy environment with sewage pollution? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much
Speaker. Cabinet is getting a progress report from time to
time on what is happening on the ground.
I want this House to appreciate the extend of the problem as
we are trying to repair, relocate people and are still working
on trying to find the missing people. All these are happening

 
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concurrently as we try to repair and bring some services to
the people, we are also trying to find the missing people.
It is very difficult but that is not an excuse not to move
faster. So, we want to promise the people of KZN that
government is going to do better and we are going to up our
pace in terms of resolving some of the issues that are
confronted by these communities especially building long
lasting houses for them.
We know that they are pulling hard in terms of housing their
families. These temporary places are not good for families and
I’m sure people will appreciate the fact that government is
trying everything in its power to ensure that we restore these
places to normality given the difficult financial situation
that we find ourselves in. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon Speaker. Deputy President,
you say that the infrastructure was not developed for
disasters of this nature, but between 1980 and 2010, there
were 77 floods in KwaZulu-Natal.
Now, my question is, and I don’t believe money is the only
solution to the problems in KwaZulu-Natal. Eight years ago

 
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when I was a councillor there, the water loss was 17% and
today it’s sitting at 52%. That is how bad the infrastructure
is crumbling.
So, the question is, if you are going to rely on the same
skills, same expertise, same people that fail you all these
years to ensure that there was proper maintenance for the
infrastructure, how are we going to solve the problem now when
the infrastructure is beyond rehabilitation it means you have
to put new infrastructure particularly in water and
sanitation? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much hon
Speaker. In trying to assess the damage that was caused by the
floods, we set up a team of engineers to go and assess the
situation and what was wrong with the current infrastructure,
what was wrong with the current drainage system and I’m sure
they putting a report together to say this is what was wrong
and as you rebuild, you need to redesign better so that you
can accommodate flooding and some difficult weather conditions
that from time to time may come.
So, I’m confident that as we move forward, we will have
learned something from this disaster especially this one was

 
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worse and I think we should take some lessons and try and do
better.
As we build a road we must know that this area is prone to
flooding. As we build a bridge, we must know that this area is
prone to flooding. So, we need to redesign the way we layout
our infrastructure, our roads and our buildings.
I’m sure you would have appreciated the seriousness of the
situation where a foundation of church building moved. I don’t
think those who designed that building had anticipated this
problem.
As we go forward, I think we need to change our way of
building so that we move with the time. Climate change is here
and it’s real. Thank you very much.
Question 10:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we remain
committed to ensuring the dignity of every South African, and
we will continue to visit every part of the country, including
Tsitsikamma, to trigger the necessary development where
specific interventions at the level of the Presidency are
required.

 
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For instance, in April 2021, we visited the area and handed
over land to the community of Covie village, after a
successful land settlement claim. The land had been lost when
it was declared part of the Tsitsikamma National Park.
Fishing rights, food security, a lack of economic prospects,
and agricultural support are all issues that communities face.
Given the land’s characteristics, it should be used
successfully for commercial and agricultural purposes. The
Covie community’s food security and livelihood are mainly
reliant on coastal resources, and the area offers abundant
agricultural and ecotourism potential.
As part of our postsettlement assistance, we emphasised the
government’s focus on agricultural support initiatives, to
ensure the productive and sustainable use of the land, as well
as the provision of critical service delivery infrastructure,
such as roads, electricity, water and sanitation to support
economic mobility and improve the life of the community.
The national and provincial governments committed to
implementing cohesive intervention measures, to address some
of the difficulties faced by the Tsitsikamma communities, in

 
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accordance with our delegated responsibilities on land reform
and agriculture.
Specifically, we are exploiting the area’s economic potential,
by also focusing on nonagricultural businesses like tourism,
as well as promoting small business ventures to make the
Tsitsikamma villages thrive. However, we must agree that
limited resources continue to be a significant hindrance to
exploring such possibilities. Notwithstanding such hindrance,
the following progress has been made since the handover.
Firstly, the Community Property Association collaborated with
the National Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural
Development and the Department of Agriculture in the province
to design the establishment of pastures totalling 50 hectares,
in order to reintroduce cattle farming to the area.
Secondly, the Department of Social Development has opened a
Community Nutrition and Development Centre, which provides
food and day care services to the community.
Thirdly, in collaboration with Sanparks, the Covie Communal
property association, CPA, has focused on reviving the
Honeybush tea project.

 
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Fourthly, the Covie CPA has formed a partnership with a
private developer and signed a memorandum of agreement, to
form a venture for the development of both the commonage and
allotments.
Lastly, R12,3 million was transferred to the Covie CPA in
consideration of compensation for land that could not be
transferred to the community because it belongs to SanParks.
A follow-up visit to the Tsitsikamma area will be beneficial
to assess the development and impact of our postsettlement
support. Our visit should focus on the additional support
needed to improve economic prospects for the people
surrounding the Tsitsikamma National Park, both in provinces
of the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape.
In order for our land reform and rural development program to
be successful, we must focus our support and interventions on
the integration of our country’s rural areas, which must be
complemented by agricultural and infrastructure development,
to ensure sustainable rural communities and livelihoods. Thank
you.

 
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, allow me to
thank you for the initiative you have already put in place.
However, many challenges still exist in that area, given the
fact that right up to Tsitsikamma, right up to just before
Covie, the levels of poverty are very high. There are high
levels of unemployment in that area, substance abuse and
things. There are still opportunities for growing of maize,
wheat, poultry farming, etc. I think what the community needs
is a push, they need some assistance from government to come
there to put these initiatives in place and drive these
processes forward. There is lots of land available and people
are willing to do that. So, will you consider then, at some
stage, where there is free space in your diary, to pay a visit
and engage with the community so they can have some further
development, given fact that wheat is a crisis in South Africa
with the war between Russia and Ukraine? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the
Department of Agriculture nationally and in both provinces are
doing very well in trying to support the community that has
been given back their land. On the other side, in the Eastern
Cape, you would appreciate the fact that the provincial
government has supported that community to upgrade their dairy
farms and to ensure that they get some pastures. They were

 
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also supported to rebuild some of the infrastructure that was
not there, some of the roads that were not there. So, we want
to thank the Eastern Cape Provincial Government.
The Western Cape Government has supported the Covie community
and we are going to support and join the Western Cape
Provincial Government in the building of the allotments and
the commonages for tourism.
So, there are a lot of opportunities available, especially
economic activities that are related to the sea, tourism and
all the resources that are in the sea, such as fishing. These
people feed themselves from day to day from fishing. So, they
are going to be supported and I am sure they are going to be
given fishing licenses, so that they can fish for productive
use. They can open up their businesses.
That area that has been resettled, the community, is a very
prime area for tourism, agriculture. All we need is to
consistently support the communities to make use of that land
for their own benefit. Thank you very much.
Mr S S SOMYO: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, thank you for
giving us information on the ultimate benefits to the

 
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communities in that area. I have had a good experience on my
drive to the Eastern Cape, recently. I went into the area
meeting the community there. They are very excited to have a
benefit of that nature. The land itself is breath-taking, the
environment is well kept, ... [Inaudible.] ... in the sense of
how the government has undertaken to give it over, as it were,
to those communities there. And it is a very good gesture of
ensuring that through reservation, our communities could have
a taste of the natural environment. The question remains: How
will government, generally, led by yourself, keep the current
land use purpose to the minimum and somewhat give them
instruction on the plan development in as far as ... [Time
expired.] ... environment is concerned. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we are
confident that going forward, the land is going to be utilised
in a very responsible manner, because of the relationship
between the people and Sanparks. Sanparks is helping the
community around to preserve certain areas, to preserve
certain trees for conservation.
Again, Sanparks is helping the communities around, to develop
projects that, in a way, can sustain the environment, like the
project that we have mentioned – the honeytea. The honeytea

 
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will be grown there under the supervision of Sanpark, so that
the environment is kept up to scratch and not destroyed.
Again, I am sure that the Department of Tourism would want to
come closer to ensure that, as we attract tourists in the
area, we do that without destroying the very essence of that
environment, the beauty of that environment.
Surely, the Department of Agriculture, national and the two
provinces will do their agricultural activities, keeping in
mind that that area is bordering some conservation areas that
must be kept for future generations. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Before I proceed to invite the hon member who
will ask the next supplementary question, I wish to caution
hon members against making long statements. You make long
statements, you finish your time and then you have to go
overtime to ask your questions. Please, don’t put me in that
situation, hon members.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Speaker, it is Ms Mkhalipi on behalf of
hon Ntlangweni. Deputy President, last week, there was land
tenure sumemit hosted, which addresses issue relating to
access to and tenure to land. Land is the single most

 
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important determinant of opportunities for rural people. In
2010, the Constitutional Court struck down the Communal Land
Rights Act, Clara, because it gives more powers to traditional
leaders in relation to land in the rural areas. Does your
government have plans to revive a Clara type of legislation?
If you do, what lessons have you learned from Clara in
relations to the rights of rural people to their own land and
how will this people be protected from traditional leaders who
sell off pieces of land to commercial enterprises? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: With the Communal Land
Tenure Summit that was held, we are, in the main, trying to
find a very peaceful and permanent way of dealing with land in
our communal areas. Of course, there is a voice from the
people living in those communities that they want to own this
land. There are traditional councils that also see it very
differently and feel the land must belong to the traditional
council. We have kings and queens that have a different view.
So, we have made proposals to the summit. Now, there are
varying options that are available to all of us and it was
quite clear at the end of the summit that we cannot have one
size fits all. Different communities might want a different

 
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policy option; other communities might be suitable for a
different policy option.
So, as we move forward, we are going to present the proposal
from that summit and present it to Cabinet for further
guidance, so that finally, we can develop the necessary
legislation that will seek to accommodate the tenure system in
our communal areas.
Going forward, we are going to recognise our traditional
leaders and their traditional systems. We are going to
recognise our traditional communities with their customs and
values.
So, we will find a middle ground and ensure that people
utilise this land productively for their economic activities,
so that they can better their lives. So, that discussion is
ongoing and we are approaching a point where we are going to
legislate these policy options. Thank you very much.
Mr W M THRING: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, there are
many Tsitsikammas dotted and spread throughout South Africa in
need of economic development, job creation and small business
development. Areas such as Marion Bridge, ... [Inaudible.] ...

 
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Tsilinyama, Dussenhok, ... [Inaudible.] ... are such areas.
The main road leading to these areas called Milky Way has been
completely destroyed by the floods recently and trucks and
other vehicles having to drive residential area of Marion
Heights, Marion Bridge, adding to the economic hardships of
the residents, as well as damaging the roads infrastructure.
The President of ACDP, Rev Dr Kennith Meshoe visited some of
these areas. Now, as the leader of government business, what
guarantees or assistance, if any, can you give to the
residents of these areas that I mentioned, that like
Tsitsikamma are also desperately in need of economic
development? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think all the
Tsitsikammas who are scattered all over must go back to their
place. We have given them back the land that they must go and
utilise. So, wherever they are, they must go back. They have
the land now. They have something that they can work on.
However, on a serious note, we want to assure that community
that we would continuously support them until they have
reached a point where they are self-sustainable. We are going
to assist them with the infrastructure like the roads there,
water infrastructure, sanitation. We are going to assist then

 
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to till the land. We are going to assist them to keep
livestock and to do a number of projects that can define their
economic way of life.
So, support to that community is guaranteed and I think they
have now in the bank R12,3 million that we are paying them for
the land that we could not resituate, because it is within the
park. So, they have money in their hands. They can plan for
some of the projects. Of course, the two governments, the
Western Cape government and the Eastern Cape government have
committed to assist. The Department of Agriculture and Rural
Development is also taking part in assisting these communities
to make use of this land. Thank you very much.
Question 11:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as
government we are cognisant of the negative impact of load
shedding on the country’s economy and the inconvenience and
hardship it causes to the country. However, load shedding is a
last resort lever to protect the system from blackout, which
is a total loss of the electricity network.
Government has created a regulatory environment that is
conducive to opening up the market for alternative power

 
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generation. Within the framework of the 2019 integrated
resource plan, alternative energy generation measures are
being explored and implemented to augment electricity supply
and improve the stability of the grid. Furthermore, the
Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy has issued
determinations on the required new generation capacity in
concurrence with the National Energy Regulator of South
Africa. We must make the point that Eskom’s load shedding is
not as a result of limited market role for alternative power
generation, but mainly as a result of breakdowns encountered
from the old and aging power generation infrastructure.
An improvement in the reliability and predictability of the
coal fleet requires adequate financial resources and
generation capacity surplus on the system to execute the
required additional reliability maintenance. To achieve this,
Eskom is driving the generation turnaround programme. As coal-
fired units and stations are shut down, it is essential that
new generation capacity be added to the grid to ensure energy
security. Overall, the country has an immediate need for 4 000
megawatts to 6 000 megawatts additional generation capacity
with immediate effect.

 
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To this end, the following interventions have been
implemented. As part of our just energy transition strategy,
Eskom has proposed an extra 8] 000 megawatts of clean energy
projects to be added to the grid over the next two to five
years. This is a mix of greenfield renewables and gas projects
as well as coal power plant repurposing.
Government is also considering various changes which will
speed up the acquisition of independent power producers and to
reduce further red tape. An announcement in this regard will
be made once all the necessary tasks have been completed.
In addition, Eskom has presented a transmission development
plan to meet the country's capacity demands which calls for
the construction of 8 000 kilometres of line over the next 10
years. This project will necessitate substantial funding which
Eskom has proposed as part of the just energy transition
financing and regulatory support for land and servitude
acquisition.
Eskom has proposed a holistic approach to decarbonisation and
environmental compliance by accelerating the retirement of
ageing and unreliable coal plants as part of its commitment to
the country's just energy transition plan. This will be done

 
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in a manner that is both socially and environmentally
responsible.
Co-ordination across all tiers of government is critical in
achieving our just transition as it will ensure energy supply
stability and provide a much-needed reprieve from the
detrimental effects of load shedding in the future.
In accordance with our constitutional and international
commitments, we reiterate our commitment to establishing a
socially inclusive decarbonisation growth path that
prioritises environmental sustainability. Climate change is
here with us and it is an existential threat to all of us and
South Africa is committed to assisting in the reduction of
global emissions.
To this end, the President formed the Presidential Climate
Commission which will advise on the country's climate change
response and support a just transition to a low carbon climate
resilient economy and society.
The Presidential Climate Commission encourages debate among
social partners on these challenges identifying the type of
economy and society we want to attain and outlining

 
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comprehensive paths to get there. The Presidential Climate
Commission has created a framework for a just transition which
allows for discussion of practical concerns such as jobs,
local economies, skills, social support, and governance. The
framework is based on the country's current body of knowledge
as well as the National Development Plan's vision.
Our transition must maintain policy alignment across all
levels of government, including the current Climate Change
Bill which is before Parliament.
As a county, we must guarantee that we implement new
infrastructure, technologies and solutions that allow us to
meet ambient air quality standards while also safeguarding
community members from the negative impact of environmental
externalities. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
Mr S T MANELI: Thank you, Speaker. Thank you, hon Deputy
President for the response. The interventions that are being
undertaken will go a long way in ensuring that there are no
electricity disruptions to the people and the economy. It is
also encouraging to hear about the interventions with regard
to just energy transition. My question is, what is the level
of interest from the independent power producers to take

 
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advantage of the opportunities provided by the government
through various bid windows to provide additional energy to
the grid? Thank you Deputy President and Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The independence power
producers are very excited and, of course, they are
participating. Today, they have almost connected 1 800
megawatts to the grid. Gradually, they are coming into the
party, but, of course not at a speed that we are expecting to
solve our current problems of load shedding. We can guarantee
that the future is going to be better with the independence
power producers - the renewable energies that are from time to
time connected to the grid.
All announcements that have been made by the Minister of
Mineral Resources and Energy allowed all bid windows to
contribute power to the grid. Finally, that is going to give
us more energy for the future. We are hoping that all those
independent power producers who have been given these projects
can speed up the development of these project and connect to
the grid. South Africans, as we speak, need more and more
energy. Thank you very much.

 
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Dr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you Speaker and hon Deputy President. I
would like to know if we should expect any time soon a
complete deregulated electricity market where the actual smart
network is able to calculate the actual availability of power
and the demand for electricity at a specific time and
calculate the price according to that? In fact, remove all
market failures out of a regulated market. I just want to add
to that that if we really take the whole question of climate
change seriously one should actually encourage renewables by
even subsidising it if one takes a long-term perspective. But
in South Africa coal is still in a sense protected by a
regulatory framework that limits the entrance of renewables
into the network. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
Well, I think as we stand here I think the market is gradually
opening up, firstly for renewables. All independent power
producers are now allowed to generate energy and connect it to
the grid. We have also allowed municipalities to generate
their own energy. Yes, I can say we are opening up this market
so that Eskom must not remain a monopoly. I am sure down the
line we are going to open for more and more players like we
have done with the private sector - businesses that can
generate up to 100 megawatts. Yes, we are constantly opening

 
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up the market, but in a very responsible manner. Thank you
very much.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, Speaker. Deputy
President, you are aware of the severe impact of load shedding
in the South African economy which causes loss of outputs of
approximately R700 million per day according to the estimates.
It also contributes to the massive job losses in the country.
Now you will recall that the shareholder strategic intent
outlined government short to medium and long-term objectives
for Eskom. I want to ask, since this shareholders strategic
intent has been adopted a long time ago, whether government
does indeed hold Eskom to account to ensure that these
objectives outlined in the intent, firstly, are implemented?
Secondly, the destruction is not linked to an allegation that
some of these independent power producers have some political
connected individuals, meaning that they have vested interest
in the destruction of Eskom? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much.
Well, load shedding is a situation which I think is not
desirable for the economy. We understand the frustration that
our people are facing on a daily basis as we are going through
this load shedding. We have explained a number of times more

 
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or less the reasons. Of course South Africans don’t want to
hear the reasons, but they want to hear solutions. Maybe it is
important to once again reaffirm the reasons that account for
load shedding.
We have a new built infrastructure that has design effect like
your Medupi and Kusile which by now should be operating in
full steam capacity. But because of the design effects there
are some units in Medupi and Kusile that are still not
functional. That is reducing our capacity.
Again, we have the power plants that have gone beyond their
lifespan. We are pushing them very hard and the maintenance
bill has gone high. To maintain these power plants has become
more and more expensive for Eskom. Of course the unplanned
breakages in these plants disrupt the plans for Eskom to do
proper maintenance that is scheduled. That is why Eskom will
announce load shedding in the middle of the night because a
certain plant has broken down. This is not according to the
planned outages that is planned by Eskom. Be that as it may,
the plan that we have put forward in terms of our IRP 2019 is
that we have allowed the different energy alternatives to come
into play. In the main we have allowed renewables. That has

 
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been a long journey from bid window 1 and we are now at bid
window 5, 6, 7 and we continue.
But like I said this is not giving us the energy that we
require now. We are getting it in bits and pieces and load
shedding continues to be with us. But I want to assure South
Africans that the plan that we have now will give us reliable
energy in a space of nine months. We are going to pursue these
independent power producers to bring their energy into the
grid. We are going to allow Eskom to consider putting a coal-
powered plan. Of course we are aware of the carbon emissions
and maybe we are going to find some technicians who are going
to reduce the emissions. We are going to use what is available
- the abundant coal resources that we have. We are targeting
the 1 500 megawatts that we are going to use from coal. But we
are also targeting 3 000 from gas to power. I think this will
be in a position to give us some immediate relieve if we act
with the speed and urgency that it deserves.
Yes, it is not a solution if people want to hear that load
shedding is going to end tonight. It is not something which is
going to end load shedding tonight, but yes, down the line
there are prospects of ending load shedding. Thank you very
much.

 
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Mrs N W A MAZZONE: Deputy President, I am sure that you will
agree that there are more 3 000 megawatts into the grid is the
number one priority to the South Africans in terms of
electricity and energy. One of the challenges that various
independent power producers in the industry that we have heard
have identified is the local content requirements. In fact,
Eskom CEO Andre de Ruyter has agreed and noted that it was
leading to a shortfall in capacity as local solar panel
manufacturers cannot meet the demand. Deputy President, in
your capacity as the Leader of Government Business, will you
take steps to ensure that this requirement is removed and that
the independent power producers, IPPs, and Eskom are allowed
to purchase their equipments and from whatever supplier they
choose whether local or international, and that they meet the
requirements? And if you do not remove that why don’t you?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much. My
role as Leader of Government Business confines my work only in
Parliament, and not in real government business. We have
Minister Patel who is responsible for co-ordinating the
business that government does with the private sector. This is
really a concern that has been noted that some of the
components that the independent power producers need to
assemble and the plans up are not readily available and it

 
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takes time to source them and therefore making it very
difficult in terms of the timeframe to deliver these projects.
Be that as it may, that is going to be work in progress, but
there is commitment in terms of those independent power
producers to do whatever possible in their powers to ensure
that they deliver these projects on time so that energy can be
connected to the grid.
We are not relying on them, but we are pushing ahead like I’m
saying that Eskom must also take a responsibility to enter the
renewable space. Eskom must be able to do solar energy; Eskom
must be able to do wind energy. This space is not restricted
to independent power producers only. Eskom can also play in
this space. Beyond that Eskom can play in the space of gas as
we continue with coal but ensure that there are technologies
that will limit the emissions of carbon from our coal
products. Gas as much as we want to really deal with the
frustrations in terms of the supply and demand of all these
components that are needed in the renewables it will demand on
the market processes which we hope business is well better
place to push for these components to be delivered on time
depending on the agreements with their suppliers.

 
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The situation is definitely going to improve and finally we
are going to deliver these plants, but not at the time when we
needed them most. Finally, these plants are going to be
delivered. Thank you very much.
Question 12:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, we have
since witnessed an incredible outpouring of solidarity and co-
operation from a diverse range of stakeholders, including
individuals, organizations, business and agencies in the
aftermath of the floods that resulted in massive loss of lives
and destruction of property and infrastructure, displacement
of families particularly in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN.
As the government, we want to commend and applaud these co-
operative efforts from all the Good Samaritans that have
donated in kind. Our government’s response to this
catastrophic calamity is three-pronged and summarized as
follows. Immediate humanitarian relief, ensuring that all the
affected people firstly are safe in that their basic needs are
met wherever they are. Secondly, stabilization and recovery,
which includes finding a shelter for these people who have
lost their homes and restoring service provision. And finally,

 
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the reconstruction and rehabilitation with a focus of building
back and building better.
The first phase of the three-pronged approach has mostly
focused on providing urgent humanitarian relief, ensuring that
all affected people are safe and that their basic needs are
satisfied. As much as we do that, providing urgent
humanitarian relief, we are also proceeding to find the
missing people. This has been hindered by the return of our
floods in eThekwini municipality and nearby areas over the
past two weeks. In this case, we want to applaud the Premier
of KwaZulu-Natal and the was a KwaZulu-Natal Provincial
Government for their efforts to expedite recovery and
reconstruction in the affected area.
Collaboration of all spheres of government and organs of state
continues to improve the situation on the ground, not at the
required pace of course. It is a difficult situation and we
want to appeal for appreciation of the complexity of what we
are confronted with.
With regards to phase two of our intervention, government is
making headway with stabilization and recovery actions,
including rehousing, those who have been displaced and

 
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restoring basic services. This is still an early stage. Like
I’ve said before, there are some families that are still
housed city halls and places that are not conducive for a
family to live in.
As previously mentioned, the Department of Water and
Sanitation has established water and sanitation war room to
assist the province in the affected areas particularly in
eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality in the restoration of
water services and addressing water and infrastructure related
challenges. To this end, to water supply restoration which has
progressed in many regions of eThekwini with the exception of
the Tongaat supply system which remains a major challenge, -
You might have seen communities very unhappy about that
system. This is due to the critical water infrastructure that
was badly destroyed. We are advised that the restoration of
the Tongaat Waterworks is expected to take three to six months
to complete.
In this regard, we appreciate the intervention being made by
the South African National Defence Force. As we are speaking,
they are on the ground, especially in providing water to
social facilities in the area. This has ensured that schools

 
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remain functional and our learners are not adversely affected
during this examination period.
Our word of appreciation also goes to nongovernment
organisations, NGOs, and private sector that has lent support
to the needy households, especially for the elderly.
Since all affected people should be taken care of without
losing a single day of their lives without basic necessities,
the criticism that the process has been slow is expected and
it’s well placed. However, the severity of the situation
necessitates time to fix all this. Even with all the
difficulties that we face in the area, we want to appraise
this House that affected municipalities and government
departments have been conducting technical assessment of the
damage and the costs and recommending some short, medium and
long-term measures to address the situation. Last month, the
national government received the co-ordinated response
intervention and requested funds for both essential and
emergency repairs as well as long-term solutions to restore
normality to the affected areas.
The National Treasury has issued a directive outlining public
management and budgeting systems that will be used in the

 
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event of the national disaster to guarantee that services to
the impacted communities are not disrupted. Affected
provincial departments and municipalities have already begun
to process the process of reprioritizing their budgets and
submitting requests to the National Disaster Management Centre
for the repurposing of funds in conditional grants, focusing
primarily on humanitarian relief and emergency repairs of
critical infrastructure such as water, waste management,
electricity, roads, and some engineering infrastructure as
well as social services such as healthcare facilities.
Hon Chairperson, we will continue to monitor and assist land
identification processes by the Department of Public Works and
Infrastructure so that we move with the housing initiatives by
the Department of Human Settlements to relocate all the
affected communities into safer areas. Thank you very much.
Mrs N W A MAZZONE: Deputy President, thank you for your
answer. And I must say you’re what you say sounds noble, and
it sounds very well intentioned. But you have to admit that
what we’ve seen in terms of corruption, during covid and
otherwise, we are going to have to keep an extra close eye on
what we do with relief measures in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN.

 
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There are a few things that I have noticed that had really
terrified me and my colleague, Dean McPherson who is the DA
chairperson in KZN. He got me some facts that most of the
rivers in KZN have probably marked red, which means that they
are in a critical condition and that their eco line levels are
extremely dangerous. Others are orange, which means the eco
line levels are high and few are given green, which means
they’re acceptable.
The one good thing that we have going is that there are 199
sites that have been identified as emergency shelters, and 65
of these centres have actually approved for permanent stay
structures.
We have the Task Team that is going to KZN to overlook relief
measures relations. Can we expect that this Task Team will be
given all tender details, cost details and details about water
safety, which in turn makes sure that we have human safety.
And that you will bring that information to Parliament for us
to scrutinise so that we can make sure that we never ever,
have a repeat of the corruption that we’ve seen in the past?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair,
certainly, we are going to bring information to Parliament. We

 
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will evaluate progress on the ground from time to time. I’m
sure you will also undertake your own oversight visits. But we
will endeavour to provide Parliament with the necessary
information.
We must assure this House that we are going to try everything
in our power to prevent corruption. But remember as we plan as
we work, there are those that are planning to steal somewhere.
So, we must be wiser and be faster and be better than them so
that we avoid these public resources to be stolen. We want to
assure that we are going to deal with corruption where we find
it? Whoever is going to steal government, money, public
resources, those people are going to be dealt with. As we are
sitting here ... Because one day we might come back and say we
told you that some people are going to steal money.
We are going to try our best to ensure that no money is
stolen. We are going to put our risk mitigation measures to
ensure that these funds are protected. But where they try to
steal, we are going to chase and arrest them. So, I’m giving
this assurance that we are going to work smarter and better to
ensure that public resources are safe this time. Thank you
very much.

 
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Ms A F MUTHAMBI: Deputy President, given that we are already
experiencing the predicted strong and frequent life
threatening weather events in the form of storms, landslides,
floods, droughts and heatwaves, what is the government doing
to capacitate those rural municipalities with no tax base,
particularly where there are high levels of poverty and
vulnerabilities to have access to smart early warning system,
build a more climate and disaster resilient society, efficient
and well-capacitated rapid response system? Thank you so much
House Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, I think
the first and foremost thing that we must take into
consideration is how we build our human settlement. This is a
message that we have put across our traditional leaders who at
times continue to allocate pieces of land for people to build
and reside. Some of our municipalities under their
jurisdiction allow people to build and stay anywhere. I think
we must try and tighten that situation so that we move away
from disaster prone areas. And before we can create a
settlement, we should allow a thorough process of assessment
of the area, and allow all engineers to come and assess the
area, and give us a green light before we build a human
settlement.

 
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But once again, we must be able to communicate with our people
in those rural areas in terms of our warning systems. Like KZN
did in the recent second round of floods. I think they did
very well after getting the early warning system. They went
down to convey this message to our communities. And some
people were removed and resettled, because we were expecting
rain, and this rain only damaged the infrastructure but people
had already been relocated. So, that was a first step in the
right direction in terms of warning our people communicating
these messages to forewarn them before the disaster.
Of course, we can do better in terms of developing our warning
systems, strengthening our disaster centres, so that we can
communicate and circulate information timeously in order to
prevent loss of life and livelihoods. Thank you very much.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, I wish to find out from the
Deputy President whether the national government will offer
any scheme by which people who had lost their life savings
through the destruction of their property can be prioritized
through subsidies and apply for loans, from government or any
other partner institution to rebuild their homes at favourable
rates? Thank you, Chairperson.

 
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much. Well
this is a proposal and suggestion that may well be considered
by government. But as of now, we are looking at the displaced
people that must be resettled. And if you look at the economic
prospects of these people, these are people who can’t afford
to build their own houses. These people rely solely on the
support of government. But there are those who are earning and
gainfully employed, that might want some subsidies from
government. But the people that we are talking about here, I
think these are people that are in need, that have lost
everything that are unable to fend for themselves. They rely
solely on the government support for the houses, for the
belongings that they’ve lost in order to return back to normal
life. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, it’s me House Chair, Mkhaliphi. Deputy
President two weeks ago your Minister in the Presidency,
Mondli Gungubele reported that government was still collecting
data on the extent of the damage before intervening in helping
people affected by floods in KZN. To this day, they are still
people missing and thousands more are still housing
controlled. By when will you have a full picture as government
of what is going on in KZN? When will you ensure that everyone
who has had their homes destroyed have new homes built for

 
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them? Because as I’m listening to you, you are saying that one
of the things that you are doing is to identify land. Some of
those people who lost their homes have their own land, but
there is no co-ordinated programme even from the Office of the
Premier of KwaZulu-Natal because no one knows what needs to
happen to those people.
IsiZulu:
Bahleli nje abazi ...
English:
... what is going to happen to them. People are sick and tired
of long speeches about their plight because of floods in KZN.
Can you please tell us what needs to be done now as a way
forward in order for us go back as Members of Parliament and
tell people what will happen going forward from now? Thank you
very much House.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, to the hon
member, we really appreciate and understand the sensitivity of
this matter. But however, we said in our response that some of
the interventions that we’re doing are going to happen
concurrently. What does that mean? It means that we are still
going to continue to find the missing people.

 
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These communities, some families won’t find closure until such
time we find those that are missing. So, that will be an
ongoing effort on the side of government to help those
communities to find their loved ones. Secondly, we need to
respond by providing quick services like water. That’s why
there are water tankers so that you give people water as much
as you fix the infrastructure.
There are these people that have been moved to town halls,
city halls, that have been removed from their collapsed
structures. These communities and families cannot stay there
forever. In the process, we are rebuilding houses. A few
houses have been built and in terms of the suitable to
resettle this process, government has done enough and we have
moved very fast. Public Works has identified four pieces of
land in the area where we can relocate these people.
So, what I’m trying to say hon members is that everything is
going to go concurrently. As we search, we provide services
and rebuilt. It might happen that some elements of the
interventions might lag behind. But it’s not that we are doing
nothing as government. We said and we have made an undertaking
that we are going to report progress to Parliament in terms of
what we have achieved and what is lagging behind. But all of

 
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us must make it an effort to try and assist those people
there.
We must thank businesses, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs,
that have come into the space to support these families. They
have given them blankets as well as food. And as we speak,
these families are still alive and looked after, but of
course, we are worried about shelter and the services they
must receive. Thank you very much.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON
FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Thank you very much, hon House
Chair. House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted. Thank
you.
There was no debate.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.

 
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CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON
FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES (ADMINISTRATION)
AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Thank you very much, House
Chair. House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted by this
august House.
There was no debate.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus
dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
FIRST READING DEBATE – FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE
LEVIES BILL
And
SECOND READING DEBATE – FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE
LEVIES (ADMINISTRATION) AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL

 
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon House Chair. House
Chair, today we present to you the Financial Sector and
Deposit Insurance Levies Bill as amended by the Standing
Committee on Finance. House Chair, you will recall the impact
of the global financial crisis and the necessity to respond to
that challenge in the sense that systemic risk by the
financial sector was not only a challenge to themselves, this
was a challenge with fiscus in the economy in general.
For that reason, there has been a global response to
supervised banks more intrusively, intensively and
effectively. We have also as a country adopted an overarching
policy framework titled and I quote; “Safer financial sector
to serve SA better” to regulate the financial sector. In line
with that regulatory institutions were created to support that
objective. That led to the transition to what is called Twin-
Peaks system of financial sector regulation and has been
necessary in order to achieve more effective regulation. This
requires adequate funding and resourcing for the regulators as
a final step in the reforms designed by the government and
endorsed by this House when it passed the Financial Service
Representative, FSR, Act.

 
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Institutions will be need to be adequately resourced. Those
institutions among them is the Financial Sector Tribunal; the
Ombuds Council Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Pension
Funds adjudicator and Ombuds for financial service providers.
Government is cognisant of the current economic climate as
well as the adverse economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic
and the financial strain that business and financial customers
are under at the moment. It is important, however, to view the
proposed levies through the lenses of several mitigating
factors that provide clarity as well as context when analysing
the figures. One such factor is that the Bill imposes a cost
less than most peer economies with comparable size
sophistication and regulated architecture.
Furthermore, the approach in the distribution of the total
collected levies is on proportionate basis as smaller
financial institutions pay less than their larger counterparts
would pay the bulk of the levies as they would require more
regulation given their systematic and complex nature. In
addition, government working with stakeholders is taking
serious steps to mitigate the cost of those temporal unable to
discharge their obligations. We then mentioned those cost -
mindful of time, hon Chairperson, I am galloping in order to
meet your time obligations, I had drafted a long speech.

 
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Hon House Chairperson, I conclude with crucial note on the
Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies and Deposit
Insurance Premium Bill. This is a section 75 Bill, not a
section 77 Money Bill. However, it does have consequences from
a funding perspective. As I mentioned before, the SA Reserve
Bank is the designated financial stability and resolution
authority in terms of the Financial Service Representative,
FSR, Act. To equip it with the necessary tools to maintain
financial stability we have established a Deposit Insurance
Fund that will be administered and maintained by the
corporation, but entirely funded by the banking industry to an
estimated amount of about R548 million through premium
contributions.
The major beneficiary of the scheme are depositors who will be
protected in the event of the bank fallout. The policy
intervention will enable the protection of depositors up to
100 000 per individual and cover 90% of the depositors,
including the most vulnerable customers. Once again, we will
delay implementation to allow sufficient time for the industry
to make adequate preparations while the Reserve Bank will
absorb the corporation startup funding requirements at no cost
to the industry. I therefore, Madam Speaker, and other members
of the House, thank you for that. [Applause.]

 
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Ms P N ABRAHAM: House Chair, this is the Report of the
Standing Committee on Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance
Levies Bill, as well as Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill. House
Chair, Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon
members of the National Assembly, members of the public, the
committee processed two Bills which are crucial to the running
of South Africa’s financial regulatory regime, which the
Standing Committee on Finance is reporting to the House today.
These are the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies
Bill, and the Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill as amended.
We shall refer to the former as the Levies Bill and the other
as the Levies Administration Bill or collectively, the Bills.
Both these Bills forms part of the Twin Peak financial
regulatory regime, which was initiated following the global
financial crisis of 2008. South Africa is part of the global
village and its citizens. Residents and businesses get
impacted upon by significant events taking place in other
parts of the world. The Twin Peaks model of financial
regulation is as a comprehensive system for regulating the
financial sector representing a radical shift away from
fragmented regulation and mitigating the risk of regulatory
arbitrate.

 
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The Financial Services Regulatory Authority, FSRA saw the
introduction of two main regulatory authorities which are the
Prudential Authority, PA within the South African Reserve Bank
and the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, FSCA which
incorporated the former financial services board. The PA is
responsible for safety and soundness of banks, insurers and
financial conglomerates or for systemically important
financial institution, SIFI. The FSCA is responsible for
protecting customers or financial firms, ensuring the
integrity and efficiency of financial markets and promoting
effective consumer education.
The PA and FSCA were both established on the 1 April 2018.
South African Reserve Bank, SARB under the FSRA is responsible
for the overall financial stability with a statutory inter
Financial Stability Oversight Council, FSOC chaired by the
Governor of SARB. This entails planning for the worst events
and ensuring that there a plans in place to manage systematic
failures in the financial system. This includes the
introduction of the deposits insurance scheme as a financial
safety net. The Levies Bill is the Money Bill that provides
for the imposition of levies on supervised entities in order
to fund operations and functioning of the Prudential
Authority, here above referred to as PA.

 
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The FSCA, the Financial Services Tribunal, Ombud Council which
are all established in terms of the FSRA. It will also fund
the office of the pension fund adjudicator and the office of
the Ombud for financial services providers. The Administration
Bill provides for the refinements to Chapter 16 of the
Financial Sector Regulation Act, which deals with fees and the
administration of levies to ensure that the chapter is
appropriately aligned with the Levies Bill and appropriately
provides for the administration of levies. It also provides
for the imposition of deposit insurance premium that will
finance the Deposit Insurance Fund. The premiums will be
imposed on the members of the corporation for the Deposit
Insurance which are licensed banks, mutual banks, corporative
banks and branches of foreign banks which conduct business in
South Africa.
In 2021, Parliament enacted the Financial Sectors Amendment
Bill which established the corporation for the Deposit
Insurance and the Deposit Insurance Fund. These for the first
time will ensure that the depositors are protected in the
event of bank failure. The Levies and Administration Bills are
at the final implementation stages of the country’s financial
sector regulatory reforms which introduced the so-called Twin
Peaks regulatory architecture. The objectives of the financial

 
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sector regulations are to ensure a stable inclusive and
transform financial sector that is a key driver of economic
growth and job creation. The financial sector plays an
important role of providing financial products and services to
citizens, thus supporting economic activity.
The efficient and effective regulation and supervision of
financial institutions and markets minimises the risk of
market failures. A strong system of financial sector
regulation ensures the protection of financial customers. In
order to achieve all of these, an appropriate funding model in
line with a Twin Peak system is therefore needed to provide
for cost of regulation and capacity enhancement. The Bills
seeks to ensure that there is adequate funding and resourcing
of regulations and supervisors.
The Levies Bills were introduced to the National Assembly by
the Minister of Finance on 21 January 2022. The committee was
briefed on the Bills by National Treasury on the
9 February 2022, and a call for public comment was issued by
Parliament thereafter, and only written submissions were made
to the committee. The Banking Association South Africa, BASA
Financial Intermediaries Association of South Africa, FIASA,
the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE Masthead, Moonstone,

 
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OUTsurance, South African Insurance Association, and Wealth
Tap. The committee could have benefited more from oral
submission by stakeholders.
On 11 May 2022, officials of the National Treasury and
affected regulatory bodies responded to the written
submissions. As a result of the submissions, a number of
amendments were made to the original Bills. The National
Treasury also reported that before the Bills were tabled in
Parliament, it undertook extensive consultation with affected
stakeholders, including regulatory agencies and industry.
The submissions received from stakeholders focused on
technical and substantive issues. Some of these issues were
accepted by National Treasury leading to technical and
substantive amendments detailed in our report. Most of the
substantive policy comments on the Levies Bill focused on what
can be referred to as compliance costs, particularly the
quantum of levies, possible duplication of the levy and
special levy.
The special levy will only be for the first two years of the
levy. It touched only to enable the new regulators to cover
their setup costs. The levy falls away from year three going

 
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forward. The Levies Bills further make provision for granting
of exemptions from payment of all or part of the levy in the
circumstances set out in clause 11 of the Bill, in order to
accommodate entities facing financial hardships. Although
these are necessary costs, the committee is concerned that the
cost of regulation will be born disproportionately by the
customers, particularly the poor and low income earners. This
is why the committee ordered National Treasury to present to
it a socio-economic impact study on the Bills before
deliberating and adopting them.
The direct cost of regulation under the Twin Peak systems
after these Bills are enforced, will amount to R1,6 billion
per annum in the first year and R1,3 billion currently, are
the costs. The committee urges for thorough consultation
industry whenever these fees and levies are reviewed. The
committee further recommends an independent survey to be
conducted to examine the actual pass on costs of these fees
and levies to consumers after the special levy has fallen away
in the third year. The estimated impact of these costs on
consumers in the first year if passed on, will amount to less
than 50% per month.

 
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The National Treasury projected that the total levies will be
paid by insurers and banks, account for about 0,3% and 0,2% of
their total operating costs respectively. It further stated
that each institution has a percentage of the total profits
generated will pay 0,8 and 0,4 respectively. Finance is the
largest industry in South Africa at 24% of GDP followed by
personal services at 17%, trade at 14%, manufacturing at 13%,
mining government at 9%, transport at 7%. The cost of doing
nothing will be too dire but the benefits of regulation far
outweighs its cost when regulators and regulatory supervision
act in the public interest.
Lastly, as part of the overarching reforms, the committee
still awaits and urges the Minister to prioritise the tabling
of the conduct of Financial Institutions Bill, which will
among other things consolidate and strengthen market laws,
protect customers against weak and harmful market practices,
promote financial inclusion and financial sector
transformation. I move for the adoption of the report. Thank
you. [Applause.]
Mr J N DE VILLIERS: House Chairperson, 14 years ago, in 2008 I
was working as a shopping center manager in Stellenbosch. I
was 28 years old at the time and I will [Laughter.] ... it was

 
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a bit young and it was a bit rough, but I was called into the
boardroom by the owner of the mall and he told us – and it was
16 September 2008. He told us that, last night the world
changed. And he was referring to the fall of the American
bank, Lehman Brothers, and he was quite right because the
collapse of that bank, started the 2008 financial recession.
So, the full story behind the 2008 recession is complex and
intriguing, but the most important key take away from that
recession is that American financial institutions got
reckless, with cheap loans, exclusively called sub-prime home
loans to consumers. Which basically means by lending people
money who couldn’t afford to be lent money.
At that stage, normal people as well as banks and other
institutions got into deep trouble. Because, as inflation
rose, people were unable to pay back their loans and that
started the crash for the financial recession.
It is worth mentioning, that in this time South African
financial institutions were mostly not guilty of these
reckless lending standards, but none the less, it became very
apparent that regulation in the financial sector remains
important to safeguard people against the future potential

 
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economic recessions that could be brought on by reckless
financial institutions and their behaviour. And so South
African adopted as previous speaker referred to as well, the
Twin Peaks model, to ensure better financial market regulation
and fair and transparent financial markets.
And that House Chairperson, is why we are here today. To
create better financial regulation, it was first necessary to
create the regulating bodies responsible in South Africa. So,
these are, the Prudential Authority, the Financial Sector
Conduct Authority, the Corporation for Deposit Insurance, the
Financial Services Tribunal, the Ombuds Council, the Office of
the Pension Funds Adjudicator and the Office of the Ombud for
Financial Services Providers, FAIS Ombud.
So, this Bill before us today, seeks to raise the levies
issued to fund the operation of these different regulators.
The financial industry is being levied already, so this Bill
will not only raise these levies, but they will also include a
special levy.
House Chairperson, I think it is important at this stage to
note, that the DA does support the regulation of the financial
sector and we agree that it is in line with international best

 
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practice. Ultimately, it does protect South African consumers
and it can encourage healthy economic growth.
House Chair, there are however two principals at play here in
this Bill, which we cannot support. Firstly, as all consumers
know, we are already in a time of rising prices and
hyperinflation. These increased levies on financial
institutions, no matter what they say will just get worked
back into the pockets of normal South Africans and will be ...
classed into the financial services that we all use, banks,
insurers, pension funds.
So, although the financial services sector is being levied, in
practice the consumer is paying for that increase,
R1,6 billion of increases. These costs not only be hurt the
pocket of existing banking, insurance and financial services,
they directly go to the pockets of consumer.
House Chairperson, it’s a simple concept and principle. In a
time of rising interest rates and alarming inflation, in a
country riddled by poverty, inequality and unemployment, a
caring government does not raise cost and levies to consumers
when they can least afford it. A caring government does the
opposite; it looks toward measures that can help consumers

 
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survive. Measures such as slashing the exorbitant 33% taxes on
fuel levies and not increasing regulatory levies that get
passed on to consumers. And that is why the DA has called for
an urgent Parliament debate to slash fuel prices, which will
be heard in this House on the 15th of June. South Africans
simply cannot afford never ending rises in fuel, taxes and
levies.
But House Chair, there is a second principle at play in this
Bill which we cannot support, and that is the principle of
transparency. During the presentation of this Bill before the
Standing Committee of Finance, much time was spent on how
important regulation of the financial sector is and the
important role and function of these regulators and how it
will not hurt the consumer.
We received estimates on the financial impact of these costs
on banks, insurers, pension funds and other financial
institutions themselves, but take note, not on the actual
impact or feasibility of these costs on consumers, who will
ultimately pay for them. So, although we know how much money
will approximately be levied from consumers towards the
regulators, the one thing that the regulators failed to

 
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explain to the committee was exactly how this money will be
spent.
Not a single budget from these regulators was put before the
committee or any information that could put light on, what is
it that this will actually be used for operational expenses.
So, as Parliament, we have no idea how this increase in
revenue, via the raised levies, will be applied, because we
have seen the budgets for these entities. The DA cannot
support a Bill that raises levies from the pockets of normal
South Africans, to fund increased expenditure of regulators
that have not even tried to justify these increases with
transparent budgets.
So, House Chairperson, although the DA supports the regulation
of the finance sector, it’s the timing and the transparency of
this Bill that concerns us. What we cannot support, is that in
a time when government should care enough about South Africans
to try and curb the rising costs of living, the government is
instead passing Bills that raises the cost of living. This is
a symptom of a government that simply does not care. The DA
cannot and will not support this Bill. I thank you.

 
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Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, House Chair. The
Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Bill, and the Financial
Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Administration and Deposit
Insurance Premiums Bill, are Bills intended to collect levies
from the financial sector to finance the operation of the
Prudential Authority, the Financial Sector Conduct Authority,
the Corporation for Deposit Insurance, and other state
entities responsible for overseeing the financial sector.
The two Bills, are products of the Financial Sector Regulation
Act passed by the National Assembly in 2017, the Bill known by
most in the financial sector as the Twin Peaks Bill. The EFF
rejected the Twin Peaks Bill because it failed to deal with
the issue of the National Credit Regulator, and we warned that
the legislation is ill-conceived and leaves out a key player
in financial services. In general, the overall financial
sector regulation framework leaves out a key sector of
financial services.
It is illogical and stupid that we have a National Credit
Regulator that is excluded from the financial sector
framework, but is at the center of the struggles for millions
of our people who are highly indebted. There was no interest
in protecting customers and dealing decisively with reckless

 
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lending. We have a loan shark in the form of Capitec that is
continuing with reckless landing, chasing high risk for quick
returns and an inflated share price.
We also raised the issue of Insolvency Act, to address the
process of sequestration and how people are declared
insolvent, to be investigated much more properly. Workers are
abused by court processes that favour those with money to be
sequestrated and sometimes declared insolvent without their
knowledge. But there is another problem that we, as the EFF
warned, that the Financial Sector Regulation Act is going to
fail to deal with, that’s financial crimes.
We know that people are stashing millions of dollars under
mattresses as part of money laundering schemes. What is the
point of regulating the financial sector, if the financial
sector is colluding with the people involved in illicit
financial flows and there is no law to deal with this
decisively? How can one person keep four to eight million US
dollars under a mattress and sofa, as the President did in his
Phala Phala Farm, while claiming to have safe and sound
financial stability?

 
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What is shocking is the fact that, the President is not even
ashamed to admit that he is keeping US dollar bills under his
mattress. The President is sleeping on top of millions of US
dollar under his mattress, yet, he cannot pay workers. We are
not going to tolerate a constitutional delinquent who hides
behind multiple personalities, while pretending to be Mr
Clean, protected by captured financial sector regulatory
bodies.
The bills before the House today have nothing to do with
workers, consumers of financial products, or saving money from
the fiscus. These are deals between regulatory agencies that
have been taken over and the financial sector, which is still
owned and run by the white capitalist establishment. Banks and
other financial sector role players are expected to pay levies
so that there is money to pay the salaries of workers in these
regulatory bodies. This compromises the independence of an
already compromised and captured regulatory framework.
The most appropriate manner of handling this, would have been
to charge them levies, to the fiscus and allow Parliament to
pass an appropriation on an annual basis to all financial
sector regulatory bodies. The EFF rejects the Levies Bills.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
member. I am tempted to make the request that, we should
refrain from lowering the gravity of our presentations by
using language that might create tensions, words such as
stupid and others, while the presentation is very good, and so
on. So, it’s just a humble plea.
IsiZulu:
Ngizocela umhlonishwa uNdabezitha u-E M Buthelezi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip of
the IFP?
Mr N SINGH: It seems that hon Buthelezi is having a problem
with his connection. May I proceed with his remarks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You can.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, at the outset I wish to thank the
Standing Committee on Finance for scrutinising the Financial
Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bill and the Financial
Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Admin Bill, as tabled. We
also express our gratitude for the oral submissions made and

 
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clause-by-clause definitions, as outlined by role-players in
the financial sector.
Hon Chairperson, the main objectives of the financial sector
regulations are to ensure a stable, inclusive, and transformed
financial sector that is a key driver of economic growth and
job creation. The financial sector plays an important role of
providing financial products and services to citizens. We
fully support any legislation that will increase economic
activity while protecting consumers, depositors and all
players within the insurance and financial sectors.
However, it must be noted by this House, that while South
Africa is not short of any comprehensive financial sector
regulations and legislation, it is the people and key role-
players in the sector that seek to circumvent the legislation
for their own gain. We have many great pieces of legislation,
but not many great people who are entrusted to enforce the
laws and regulations as pertains to the financial sector. It
is imperative, therefore, that we clamp down on corruption and
cover any, and all loopholes that may exist within the system,
so as to prevent any forms of exploitation.

 
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The IFP further notes that these Bills are part of a suite of
measures aimed at financial sector reforms, which were
necessitated by the global financial sector reforms, following
the global financial crisis of 2008. Therefore, the IFP
supports the Reports by the Standing Committee on Finance and
the Bills, having considered the Insurance Levies Bill, with
its recommendations and findings as well as those pertaining
to the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Admin
Bill. I thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. House Chair the ACDP
would also to thank the members of the portfolio committee for
the incredible hard work on these two very complex pieces of
legislation. As we know, the financial sector is the key
driver of economic growth and job creation in the country, it
plays an important role of providing financial products and
services to the citizens, and that supports economic growth.
The efficient and effective regulation, supervision of
financial institution and markets, minimises the risks of
market failures, as we have seen in the 2008 global financial
crisis referred to by previous speakers.
The ACDP shares the view that, the strong system of financial
sector regulation will ensure the protection of financial

 
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customers, given, as the other speakers have indicated, that
finance is the largest industry in South Africa, 24% of Gross
Domestic Product, GDP. Now, the ACDP also notes that, during
the public hearing, the stakeholders were deeply concerned
about the compliant costs, and I think that, this is at the
heart of the problem, how to balance the benefit to the
consumers, with the increased compliant costs?
The stakeholders also indicated that the Bills would create
barriers for new players due to low penetration in the market
and limit competition, and again, these all lead to inflation
costs. So, we have listened very carefully to the debates of
the previous speakers, and the concerns, of course, as
indicated in the committee’s reports that, firstly, must be
obtained at socioeconomic impact studied on the Levies Bill.
They thought that it is necessary that, an independent survey
be conducted, to examine the actual prise and costs of the
levies to consumers, after risk more time after they have been
collected.
So, clearly, that figure was R300 million we have spoken
about, at present is R1,3 billion increasing to R1,6 billion,
the concern in the powers on cost shared by all members of the
committee and how will that be established, given the fact

 
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that they would have already gotten the increase in fuel
levies, we’ve got an increase in interest rates and we got an
increase in inflation. Also, I think, what tipped the balance
for the ACDP, was the fact of transparency.
As mentioned by previous speakers that, at this stage, we do
not know what the regulator actually requires, and how the
regulator will spend these funds? If we had a proper budget
from the regulator and to justify those expenditure, maybe we
would have been keen to support these Bills. But we want to
emphasise that we support the regulation and the supporting of
consumers. But until we know specifically, how these funds
will be spent by the regulator, we are, unfortunately, unable
to support these Bills. I thank you.
IsiNdebele:
Nom G J SKOSANA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, maLunga
ohloniphekileko nesizwe sakwethu, lotjhani.
English:
The importance of the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance
Levies Bills, whilst raising financials to operate regulatory
institutions in the financial sector has more to do with the

 
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ongoing correction of economic activities within the financial
sector.
We were not surprised when in 2008 following the worst forms
of insider trading, banks in the United States began to
collapse. Triggered by a conscious manipulation of the prime
lending rate in housing bond market, especially amongst the
working class. Black and lower income workers selling bonds
that the traders knew full well that the working class could
not afford.
This led to a global economic crisis last witnessed in 1929.
That resulted in millions of job losses globally. In South
Africa, approximately 1,4 million jobs being lost as a result.
That demonstrated once again that a poorly regulated financial
sector is a huge danger to any economy and the potential of a
poorly regulated financial sector can easily lead to massive
job losses, a negative impact upon growth and greater
instability in society.
The South African economy has been financialised like most
global economies. Most component parts of our economy are
integrated with a financial sector and the financial sector in

 
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turn has a dominating influence on the character and shape of
the economy.
IsiNdebele:
Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ...
English:
... the modus operandi of the financial sector, which has the
ability to extract high-levels of accumulation, shift money in
and out of the country rapidly and extract levies on the banks
and regulating the financial sector is critical on the state.
The state has to ensure that the financial sector adds value
to the economy and does not create extortions in the economy,
economic bubbles and other practices that are serving rank
seeking behaviour.
The year 2008 found South Africa relatively better insulated
than other countries. Thanks to the regulatory environment
that had been introduced by the National Treasury. However,
what it did like in many countries was to trigger greater
regulatory interventions in the financial sector to the credit
of the National Treasury.

 
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The Financial Sector Regulation Bill introduced in Parliament
in 2015 was enacted in 2017. It was followed by the enactment
of the Insurance Act of 2017, the Financial Sector Regulation
Act of 2017 headlined the regulatory reforms and introducing a
new model of financial regulations. This model of financial
regulation is a comprehensive system for regulating the
financial sector and dealing with practices where goods or
assets are bought from one market in another because the rate
of return derived is higher.
Parliament has been central to this process and the Committee
on Finance, over the years has played an important role in
shaping legislation.
IsiNdebele:
Malunga ahloniphekileko ...
English:
... what the financial sector regulator did was to introduce
two main regulatory authorities which are the Prudential
Authority within the SA Reserve Bank and the Financial Sector
Conduct Authority, FSCA.

 
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The Prudential Authority is responsible for the safety and
soundness of banks, insurers and financial conglomerates and
the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, is responsible for
protecting customers from financial firms trying to ensure
some levels of integrity within the system of accumulation as
well as efficiency of financial markets and promoting
effective consumer education.
Last year, we passed the Financial Sector Laws Amendment Bill
which established the Corporation for Deposit Insurance and
Deposit Insurance Fund.
Importantly, this for the first time, seek to ensure that
depositors are protected in the event of a bank failure. This
we have seen in recent times where the Prudential Authority of
the Reserve Bank has had to intervene.
IsiNdebele:
Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ...
English:
... in order to financially sustain this work an appropriate
funding model is needed to provide for the cost of regulation.
The Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bills seek

 
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to ensure that there is adequate funding and resources of
regulators and supervisors.
The financial sector requires regulatory resources
proportional to its centrality as a result of the dependence
of the entire economy on the sector as well as its size in
relation to the economy.
Now the sixth regulatory authorities currently cost about
R1,6 billion to run. The National Treasury through these Bills
seek to raise further R2,90 million taking the actual costs to
R1,6 billion per annum.
Now, the ANC’s approach was firstly to state that the
responsibility to cover the extra R290 million must lie within
the financial sector itself. Since it is the very practices of
the financial sector that require oversight and regulations.
Secondly, we argued that the principle of cross subsidisation
must apply. This principle is applicable in other parts of our
economy and underpins the redistributive nature of any
democratic society.

 
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Thirdly, we wanted to know: What does this means for the
banks? You and I are we going to be called upon to carry a
disproportionate amount of the extra financial burden?
IsiNdebele:
MaLunga ahloniphekileko ...
English:
... we insisted that a socioeconomic impact assessment be
brought to the committee to determine where the responsibility
to finance the Bills lay.
That study showed that the cost to the banked will be less
than 50 cents per month.
I think hon members from the DA are listening.
The cost for the banked will be less than 50 cents per month.
So, we believed that for the banked, this is affordable.
Now, notwithstanding that, we recommended that an independent
survey be conducted to examine the actual pass on cost of the
levies to consumers after a reasonable period of time after

 
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they have been collected. Oversight over the regulatory
environment is also critical.
So, for the six major banks, they will need to pay about
R45 million per annum on a sliding scale for smaller banks
down to R53 000 per annum.
Same sliding scale for bigger insurance companies who on
average will pay about R15 million per annum, down to the
small entrance at about R50 000 per annum.
Hon House Chairperson, we welcome the fact that there are
exemptions for those parts of the financial sector who can
list afford it. That your corporative banks will only pay on a
sliding scale from R5 million per annum downwards. Your
village banks and other forms of banking are exempted.
So, it is on those bases that as the ANC we support both
Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bills. We
understand why the DA will not support them. It is on the
basis that these levies are aimed at assisting institutions
like the Prudential Authority and the FSCA that are
institutions that service the poorest of the poor and the most
vulnerable. Those are not part of the constituency of the DA.

 
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So, if the aim of this Bill was to service big companies, the
DA was going to support it, but because it services
institutions that are in the main are servicing the poorest of
the poor obviously the DA will not support it.
Well I am disappointed with the EFF. For they always cry the
loudest when they speak about the need to transform the
financial sector and to regulate it. However, here they are
today rejecting these Bills. However, we know them, that is
how they are. They are always having some pie in the sky ideas
anywhere in the world.
[Interjections.]
Ms O M C MAOTWE: [Oa rasa man!] You are making noise man! Just
speak properly!
Mr G J SKOSANA: That is how they are.
Mr A H M PAPO: Shut up, you!
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Shut up! Shut up!

 
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Mr G J SKOSANA: As the ANC we support these Financial Sector
and Deposit Insurance Levies (Administrative and Deposit
Insurance Premiums Bill.
IsiNdebele:
Ngiyathokoza. [Iwahlo.]
Mr A H M PAPO: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is the point
of order, hon member?
Mr A H M PAPO: My point of order is: Hon member, Maotwe just
called on the hon member Mahlangu to shut up! Is that
parliamentary.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Hon House Chairperson, I was responding to
him. He said I must shut up first! You must listen you Papo.
Open your ears and listen!
Ms H O MKHALIPI: “Ja!” Do not be bias you Papo, do not be
bias! That is why taking old people to Parliament is a
problem! Do not be bias!

 
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He said before to treasure general, TG! And then you stood up
there and defending your own person! We are also going to
defend our people!
IsiZulu:
An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Futhi uma kunguwe wena Mkhalipi. Hay
cha!
Nkz H O MKHALIPI: Hayi thula kwawena!
English:
Shut up! We are not going to allow this bully here!
An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Hon Mkhalipi, you are out of order!
IsiZulu:
Nkz H O MKHALIPI: Hawu kahle wena Violet. Negama lezalukazi!
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Yesus!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, that
was totally uncalled for. Members have a right to raise points

 
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of orders and have a right to object to whatever, but slinging
like that, I do not think is acceptable.
Let us refrain from using words such as shut up and all that.
It is unparliamentary. And just shouting at the top of your
voices in a manner in which some members do is terribly wrong.
It is totally unacceptable.
IsiZulu:
Kahleni bakithi.
English:
I did not want to usher in the Minister of Finance like that.
The hon Minister.
Setswana:
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Kuba Papo. Mokube rea gokupa. Reyabereka.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maotwe, please.
Hon the Minister of Finance.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chairperson, I want to say
three things. The first one in the management of public

 
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finances, there are trade-offs and policy choices. The
unfortunate part is that our colleagues on my left this side
are in a comfortable position because they do not have to make
these policy choices and trade-offs. Let me just use it as an
example – even if you have to choose between a levy to finance
these institutions, if it is not a levy, I will have to tax
somebody in order to finance that. There is no two ways about
it. Those are the policy choice I have to make.
If tomorrow we use a fuel levy, I have made my intentions that
if you ask me I love the fuel levy, I do not. If you ask me:
Do you have an intention to phase it out? Yes! However, can I
do it at the stroke of a pen? No! Why?
The fuel levy as we speak, generate about R89 billion per
annum. If I were to remove it immediately, I will have to find
a new tax to replace it or cut services and in most
circumstances those services that are going to be cut are
likely to affect the poor of the poorest.
These are policy choices you make when you are in government.
Unfortunately, our colleagues on the left do not have to make
those policy choices every day. Those policy choices have to

 
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be made every day. That is what then has to do with the
responsibility of governing, is to make those policy choices.
I also made my intention that as part of moving forward even
the Road Accident Fund has to be moved out of the fuel levy
and of the fuel price. However, that needs a process.
The second point I want to make as the relative aspect of it
but there is an oversight possibility that every registered
institution is going to do.
Lastly, I must thank the committee for the job well done.
Thank you.
Debate concluded.
FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL
(First Reading debate)
Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front
Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

 
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FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL
ADMINISTRATION AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL
(Second Reading debate)
(Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
FIFTH ORDER
FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front
Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES ON REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MS JF VAN
SCHALKWYK, CHIEF MAGISTRATE AT KEMPTON PARK, IN TERMS OF
SECTION 13(4) OF THE MAGISTRATES ACT, 1993

 
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Mr G MAGWANISHE: Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon
Deputy Ministers and hon members, Ms Van Schalkwyk holds the
position of the Chief Magistrate at Kempton Park. She was
provisionally suspended from office in 2013 on charges of
misconduct pending the outcome of the investigation into here
fitness to hold office. Although the formal inquiry began in
2014, the process was delayed by several postponements and
changes to counsel.
In 2015, Ms Van Schalkwyk applied for an order concerning the
validity of regulations for judiciary process in the lower
courts and a code of conduct for magistrates but was
unsuccessful. Also, leave to appeal was refused. In 2018, the
Parliament confirmed the Minister’s determination as
recommended by the Magistrate Commission to withhold her
remuneration.
The inquiry was eventually held in September 2020 and Ms
Schalkwyk was found guilty. The commission requested her
removal from office on 27 July 2021. The Minister confirmed
the recommendation. The committee was briefed on the matter on
26 August 2021. At the meeting, the committee heard that Ms
Schalkwyk had applied to court to have the commission’s
decision to recommend her removal from office to be set aside.

 
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The committee requested the legal opinion and was advised that
there was no legal reason preventing Parliament from
proceeding with the matter.
On 31 May 2022, the committee was briefed by the commission
and also considered the contents of Ms Schalkwyk’s
correspondence. The committee is of the view that there is no
justifiable basis in law for it to postpone its deliberations.
Furthermore, Ms Schalkwyk holds a senior position within the
magistrate and the suspension prevents the position to be
filled on a permanent basis to the detriment of the
administration of justice.
The committee having considered the report from the Magistrate
Commission, the Minister’s suspension and the removal of Ms
Schalkwyk from office of magistrate, reports that it concurs
with the suspension and recommends that the NA resolves not to
restore Ms Schalkwyk to office. I so move. Thank you, Hoiuse
Chairperson.
Declarations of Vote:
Mr W HORN: House Chair, the administration of justice system
in our country is under severe pressure. It is under this type
of pressure that it is not good for health of either for the

 
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judiciary or health of our constitutional democracy. One
element of this pressure turns on the fact that the Department
of Justice and Constitutional Development is clearly not a
state operational declining and inefficiencies that typifies
the governance by the ANC.
Another element of this pressure is brought about by the way
in which the rule of law is undermined in or country and
criminality which is not investigated and prosecuted properly.
It also suggests importantly to this report to a failure to
act with integrity on the part of holders of the public office
and even an attitude to some of the public officers that the
law does not apply equally to everyone as determined by our
Constitution, from the President of the country right down to
the poorest and the marginalised.
While the manner in which we as the national legislatures
discharge our duties and functions in terms of the guidelines
of the Constitution is often criticised. Today is a good
opportunity to embrace our obligations to uphold the
Constitution and the rule of law. This report is a product of
a Portfolio Committee on Justice’s oversight followed by the
decisions reached by the Magistrate Commission and the
Minister in response to the allegations of impropriety and

 
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misconduct on the part of a senior magistrate of the Chief
Magistrate of Kempton Park.
In this regard, it must firstly be repeated that it remains a
concern that the disciplinary measures involving members of
the judiciary are often not finalised with anything that
resembles speed or rapidly. The failure to deal efficiently
with matters of discipline invariably undermines the trust and
confidence of the public in the judiciary as the institution.
The fact that charges faced by Ms Schalkwyk stands from an
event that took place prior to 2013 already can never be
deemed as good enough.
Well, any magistrate who stands to lose office, of course must
enjoy all the rights and privileges in her hand to a fair
process.
The reality of this is that ordinary people might view this as
proof that holders of public office are treated more carefully
than them when it comes to workplace misconduct. Having said
this, in the current magistrate it is quite clear that the
delaying finalisation of this matter was primarily caused by
the judge magistrate and not by the Magistrate Commission nor
the Minister. Our decision today must be informed by the firm

 
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view that in order for our Constitutional Democracy and our
country’s rule of law to withstand the pressure put under, we
have no choice but to demand the highest level of integrity,
honesty and probity from members of the judiciary.
In respect of the charges from which Ms Schalkwyk was found
guilty, were satisfied that the removal from office is
justified. No reasons could be found to restore Ms Schalkwyk
to office. The portfolio committee, as the Chair of the
committee did indicate that the delaying of the final decision
on this matter given that the Ms Schalkwyk is subjecting the
process and decision by the commission and the Minister to
Judiciary Review.
However, we agree that in the interest of justice,
specifically in the administration of justice to finalise this
decision as the administration of justice will never be
optimal in the situation where only an Acting Chief Magistrate
is in place for years on end. Given that Magistrate Schalkwyk
has been suspended from the office without the remuneration
some years ago, our finalisation of this matter, only
information available to us at this stage, cannot be
prejudicial to anyone. We support the report and the
recommendation not restore to office. Thank you.

 
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Ms Y N YAKO: Hon House Chairperson, it is now almost 10 years
since the initial complaints of the Magistrate Van Schalkwyk
reneged. It is sad indictment that it has taken its
institution’s task with holding the judiciary’s office such as
the magistrate this long to bring the matter to finality. The
integrity of the judiciary is placed under serious strain by
delays such as this matter. The country should find ways of
expediting complaints against the judiciary officers to enable
our courts, particularly lower courts to function without
having these dark clouds hovering over their heads.
We must also condemn the delaying tactics employed by Ms
Schalkwyk throughout this ordeal. Her conduct has tainted the
image of judiciary and is offensive to the code of conduct of
judiciary officers. Ms Schalkwyk was accused of many
despicable offences. We listened to the abuse of her power as
the Chief Magistrate and these included attending to her
personal business during working hours, borrowing money from
the subordinates, gambling during working hours and asking a
magistrate to drive her to a casino at 10 o’clock in the
morning. We must also understand that the nature of her
offences point to a psychological problem she might have with
gambling.

 
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Magistrates had to work under extremely difficult conditions
and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Department
and the Magistrate Commission must have a mental health
assistance readily available to magistrates. It must also not
be easy to dismiss people without having made available of all
kinds of main assistance to them. This is particularly when
the kind of their work may have easily contributed to their
conduct.
This however does not take away the responsibility for
magistrates to conduct themselves in a manner befitting of the
esteemed office they occupy in the justice system. So,
therefore, as the EFF we are in support of the committee’s
decision to approve the removal of this magistrate from the
office. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much hon Chairperson, once again
somebody who was supposed to be on virtual is not there. Hon
Chair, it is critical that judicial officers, as custodians of
justice and the rule of law are held to the highest standard
of ethics. The public needs to have faith that our courts are
led by people with integrity, and with the competence that an
officer of the court will always conduct themselves in an
ethical manner.

 
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On consideration of the report, the IFP from the outset wishes
to raise its concern that, this matter has been prolonged for
many years due to various legal challenges raised by Ms Van
Schalkwyk. The Magistrates Commission apparently charged Ms
Van Schalkwyk with various counts of misconduct in May 2013
already, pending an investigation into her fitness to hold
office in terms of the Magistrates Act of 1993.
However, it is clear from the report that it is a submission
of the portfolio committee that due process had been followed
in the misconduct proceedings, and that both Ms Van Schalkwyk
and the commission have been given the opportunity to submit
evidence before a presiding officer in September 2020. It is
our understanding that the presiding officer found Ms Van
Schalkwyk guilty on 13 of the 22 remaining counts of
misconduct against her, and accordingly recommended that she
be removed from office in terms of section 13 of the
Magistrates Act of 1993. This was confirmed by the Minister.
However, the IFP understands that the portfolio committee has
in accordance with the legal opinion on the matter, determined
that there is no legal basis preventing the committee from
deliberating on the matter, despite the pending review
application of the commission’s decision. Therefore, the

 
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committee on 31 May 2022, determined the suspension or Ms Van
Schalkwyk prevented a critical senior position in the
magistrates from being filled. This is only to the detriment
of justice. The portfolio committee subsequently recommended
that National Assembly resolve not to restore Ms Van Schalkwyk
to office.
In conclusion, the IFP wishes to stress the importance of
acting swiftly on complaints of misconduct by judicial
officers, as the legitimacy of our courts rests on the
shoulders of these officers. The IFP accepts the report. Thank
you.
Mr F J MULDER: Hon House Chair, accountability is a
foundational value of our democracy, which is applicable to
all including the judiciary. Judicial independence serves as a
safeguard for the rights and privileges provided by a limited
Constitution, and prevents executive and legislative
encroachment above those rights. Judicial accountability is a
set of mechanisms aimed at making magistrates and courts,
personally or institutionally responsible for behaviours and
decisions contrary to the constitutional or legal standards.

 
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The FF Plus is in this instance in favour of the suspension
and removal of Ms J F Van Schalkwyk from the Office of the
Magistrate in terms of section 13 of the Magistrates Act of
1993. Thank you, Chair
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP at the outset would like
to thank all members of the judiciary, who tirelessly dispense
justice on a day to day basis. They are under tremendous
pressure, given the high levels of crime and backlogs that
they are faced with in the courts. However, members of
judiciary must be held to the highest level of propriety of
integrity, given that they dispense justice and citizens
correctly look up to them for that justice.
It is highly regrettable that this matter dealing with a chief
magistrate has taken so long emanating from events from 2013-
14. The ACDP understands that this is no fault of the
commission or the Minister. Chairperson I served on the
Magistrates Commission for many years and I understand the
lame tactics which the commission as referred to in its report
as well. Everyone is entitled to litigate and go to court, and
this is what we have seen here.

 
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Chairperson, the ACDP has considered this report in the
Portfolio Committee on Justice. We support the report and
recommendation not to restore the Magistrate Van Schalkwyk to
office, given the fact that we’re dealing with a chief
magistrate here, and as someone else that had to perform this
task to the detriment of justice for the citizens. I thank
you.
Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: House Chair, members of the House, fellow
South Africans, the ANC supports report on the removal from
office of Ms J. F Van Schalkwyk. Strong perceptions of
corruption and misconduct undermine the reputation of the
magistracy. Numerous pieces of law emphasize that judicial
officers must always be above reproach. The overall
constitutional standard for the appointment of judicial
officers is that they must be fit and proper. This is in
addition to the requirement that they must be suitable and
qualified.
A fit and proper judicial officer must embody judicial
integrity. The standards of judicial integrity are articulated
in the norms and standards for the performance of judicial
functions. The Code of Judicial Conduct for Magistrates in
terms of section 16(1) of the Magistrates Act of 1993, the

 
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Code of Judicial Conduct adopted in terms of section 12 of the
Judicial Services Commission Act of 1994 and numerous other
standards at international level such as the Bangalore
Principles of Judicial Conduct.
Inter alia, these standards include that a judicial officer
must always and not only in the discharge of official duties,
act honourably and in a manner befitting the judicial offices.
There are clear standards on judicial officers. Officers need
to avoid conflict between their private interests and that of
their judicial office. There is also an obligation on judicial
officers to uphold the dignity, reputation and esteem of the
judiciary.
Ms Van Schalkwyk, a Chief Magistrate at Kempton Park,
Johannesburg was charged with 18 counts of misconduct. The
Magistrate Commission agreed to provisionally suspend, Ms Van
Schalkwyk pending an investigation into her fitness to hold
office, as contemplated in terms of section 13(3)(a) of
Magistrate Act 90 of 1993. The Minister provisionally
suspended her from office on 04 June 2013, and Parliament
confirmed Ms Van Schalkwyk’s provisional suspension from
office in November 2013.

 
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On 18 September 2013, the commission appointed a presiding
officer and person to lead the evidence at the hearing,
informing Ms Van Schalkwyk in writing. The misconduct inquiry
was postponed several times at the request of the defence, and
to allow the defence and opportunity to file an application at
the High Courts, challenging the validity of the regulations
for judicial officers and the Code of Conduct for Magistrates,
and for the state to oppose the application.
The misconduct inquiry against Ms Van Schalkwyk was kept in
abeyance pending the finalization of the application. The
application was ahead on 15 March 2017, and a judgment was
reserved. On 01 August 2017, the High Court delivered its
judgment and dismissed the application with costs. The
applicant filed a notice of application for leave to appeal on
29 August 2017.
Having had both parties on 08 November 2017, the High Court
dismissed the application with costs on 10 November 2017. The
commission was on the view that Ms Van Schalkwyk deliberately
delaying the disciplinary process against her, and determined
to withhold Ms Van Schalkwyk’s remuneration in terms of
section 13(4)(A) Act with immediate effect, pending the
conclusion of the disciplinary inquiry against her,

 
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Subsequently, having considered the Minister’s report on the
matter, Parliament resolves to confirm the determination to
withhold Ms Van Schalkwyk’s remuneration. Despite numerous
challenges encountered during the misconduct proceedings,
evidence was eventually led and both parties were given the
opportunity to submit their respective heads of argument on
the merits, and orally amplify them before the presiding
officer, on 17 and 18 September 2020.
Ms Van Schalkwyk elected not to testify at the inquiry. The
presiding officer postponed the inquiry to 01 and 02 October
2020 for judgment and imposing of a sanction. The presiding
officer delivered his judgment and found Ms Van Schalkwyk
guilty on 13 of 22 remaining counts of misconduct preferred
against her. In line with the audi alteram partem rule of
natural justice, both parties were given an opportunity to
present any aggravating or mitigating factors to him on the
imposing of appropriate sanction. The presiding officer
recommended that Ms Van Schalkwyk be removed from office as
contemplated in Section 13 of the Magistrate Act of 1993.
Having considered all the relevant documentation, the
commission reserved to recommend that Ms Van Schalkwyk be
removed from office on the grounds of misconduct. On 27 July

 
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2021, the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services
confirmed the removal from office. Ms Van Schalkwyk holds a
senior position within the magistracy, and the suspension
prevents the position from being filled on a permanent basis
to the detriment of the administration of justice. Justice
delayed is justice denied. The people of South Africa deserve
speedy delivery of justice. Therefore, the ANC supports the
report. I thank you, Chair
Question put: That the Report of the Committee be adopted and
the removal from office of Ms J F van Schalkwyk be confirmed.
Question agreed to.
Report adopted and removal from office of Ms J F van Schalkwyk
accordingly confirmed.
The House adjourned at 18:24.

 

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