Hansard: NA: Mini-plenary 3
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 24 May 2022
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Minutes
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VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY)
Watch: Mini-Plenary
PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSION – NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
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Members of the mini-plenary session met on the virtual platform at 14:00.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The House Chairperson announced that the virtual mini-plenary sitting constituted a meeting of the National Assembly.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to remind you that the virtual mini-plenary is deemed to be in the precinct of Parliament and thus constitutes a meeting of the National Assembly for debating purposes only. In addition to the Rules of virtual sittings, the Rules of the National Assembly including the Rules of debate apply. Members enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Assembly. Members should equally note that anything said on the virtual platform is deemed to have been said in the House and may be ruled upon.
All members who have logged in shall be considered to be present and are requested to mute their microphones and only unmute when recognised to speak. This is because the mics are very sensitive and will pick up noises that may disturb the attention of other members. When recognised to speak, please unmute your microphone and connect your audio as well as your video. Members may make use of the icons on the bar at the bottom of their screens which has the option that allows members to put up his or her hand to raise points of order. The secretariat will assist in this regard. When using the
virtual system, members are urged to refrain or desist from unnecessary points of order. We shall now proceed to the Order, which is a debate on Vote 8: National Treasury Appropriation Bill. I will now recognise the Minister in The Presidency.
NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY)
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Budget Vote No 8 - National Treasury (State Security):
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon members, chairperson and members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, Deputy Minister Zizi Kodwa, National Intelligence Co- ordinating Committee, NICOC, Co-ordinator Ambassador Msimang, Director-General of the State Security Agency Ambassador Majola in absentia, veterans of the intelligence Services, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, let me start by thanking the hon Speaker and this august house at large for giving us the opportunity to present this budget policy statement of the State Security Agency for the financial year 2022-23.
This moment affords us the platform not only to reflect and account on our previous commitments and performance as an agency but also an opportunity to assess our strengths and weaknesses in the mission to fulfil our constitutional mandate, which is to defend the safety of our citizens and the territorial integrity of the Republic. In pursuit of the
constitutional directive, we are guided by the firm principle that national security is the patriotic duty and responsibility of the state and the citizens of the Republic. We hold this principle in the highest regard because the bedrock of any intelligence service is its ability to connect
with people and to harness their energies in order to achieve its national security goals. It is for this reason that we speak of a doctrinal shift in our undertaking of national security from a state focused, to a national and people centric enterprise based on the fundamental values of ourConstitution.
One of the surest ways of strengthening the people centric outlook is to demystify the domain of intelligence. As the High Level Review Panel observed, the phenomenon of excessive secrecy has detached us from the pulse of our nation. While respecting the imperative of the secret nature of intelligence
as a craft, the Constitution enjoins us to be more transparent, accountable and open to the needs of the public. Against this background, the civilian intelligence service is bound to examine the introduction of a fully-fledged public awareness and liaison capacity which will drive the achievement of this strategic objective. We are meeting at a critical time in the history of our democratic nation where our people are faced with the most challenging conditions especially with regard to their safety and security. This is in addition to the dire threat of enduring poverty, joblessness and the ever rising cost of living.
From a security point of view, it is no exaggeration that our country is gripped by an atmosphere of fear and insecurity, which is in contrast with the provisions of section 198 of our Constitution. If nothing is done to turn the situation around, we will reach the deepest levels of devastation from which it will be difficult to recover. It is for this reason that the centrality and posture of our civilian intelligence service must be enhanced to consolidate the vital rapport between the people and the state, in defence of our hard-earned democratic gains. The marauding gangs in areas like the cape flats, parts of
KwaZulu-Natal, and Gqeberha, who terrorize communities and
carry out assassinations of individuals, the uncontrolled
influx of illegal immigrants which often leads to violent
clashes with locals because of competition for resources, the
wanton destruction of critical economic infrastructure and the
general lawlessness across the length and breadth of our
country, all constitute the ticking time bomb that we must
never allow to discharge.
We are all aware of some of the underlying causes of this
scourge, some of which were crisply elaborated in the July
Report of Prof Sandy Africa. These include the weakness of
state institutions, high unemployment especially for the
youth, inherited levels of poverty and deep inequality,
rampant corruption at various levels of government, amongst
others.
It is clear that such a situation is untenable for the
sustainability of our country and democracy. The state and
government as a whole must make every effort to implement the
economic reconstruction and recovery program together with
other government interventions to turn our economy around and
uplift the lives of our people.
If we do not attend to these immediate challenges, we run the
risk of being exposed once again to the unfortunate incidents
of July and no one wants to experience such upheavals ever
again in our country. We therefore need a solid state-led
program with our social partners and the citizens of our
country as a whole to find solutions and rid our country of
the monster of poverty and inequality.
The budget policy statement sets out our national security
priorities and the strategies to ensure the stability of our
country. In this financial year, we continue to focus on plans
to strengthen our capacity to deliver on our mandate, to
reskill and re-energize our workforce to deliver a better
service to our people, and most importantly to reposition the
agency to be a trusted custodian of our national security.
We have an enduring obligation to work together to build a
strong and resilient State Security Agency which should play
the role of a guiding light and guarantor of our safety,
security and prosperity in the country.
I do not need to repeat the observations of the Mufamadi High
Level Review Panel to the effect that we are emerging from a
prolonged abuse of intelligence capacity, an intelligence
architecture with a posture and structure of operations which
is not responsive to the changed national and global security
landscape and many other deformities in the system.
We must admit without reservations that the progress towards
implementation of the High Level Review Panel recommendations
has been slow and must be expedited without delay. However, a
lot of ground has been covered and many other interventions
are underway to address the issues raised in the report.
As directed by the review panel, we are already at an advanced
stage in the review of our annual planning process in relation
to the budgeting process that ensures clear accountability and
manageability of budgeting, expenditure and performance
against planning priorities and targets.
Later in this financial year, we will release a bigger
turnaround plan for the organization which will address a wide
range of issues identified in the report and other matters
that the organization has prioritized for itself.
With regard to the disestablishment of the State Security
Agency, I am glad to announce that the General Intelligence
Laws Amendment Bill has been finalized and the roadmap for its
submission to Parliament was presented to the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence. It is anticipated that this Bill
will be submitted to Parliament in September 2022.
The Bill will enable the establishment of a domestic arm of
the service to focus on counter-intelligence and domestic
intelligence mandate, the establishment of a foreign service
to focus on foreign intelligence gathering and the re-
establishment of the SA National Academy of Intelligence, as
Schedule 3A government component, to focus on intelligence
training as a critical element of skills development and
capacity-building.
Members will also recall that the report called for the
finalization of the National Security Policy and the National
Security Strategy. I am glad to announce that both documents
were tabled at the SA National Security Strategy, SANSS, and
recommended for internal consultation through the clusters.
The National Security Policy has already been presented at the
Forum of South African Directors-General, FOSAD, and will be
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tabled back to SANSS for the recommendation to the National
Security Council in July. It will then be recommended to
Parliament for the commencement of public consultations.
One of the biggest issues that have stifled the performance of
this Agency has been the matter of corruption and an enduring
culture of misconduct. The Mufamadi report has made specific
recommendations regarding interventions to deal with endemic
incidents of fraud, corruption and misconduct.
A number of interventions have been instituted especially with
regard to the investigation of corruption since the
publication of the Mufamadi Report. Though a great deal of
work has been undertaken, there has been no tangible results
in terms of holding people to account ... the work to uncover
acts of corruption and misconduct has intensified and a number
of individuals have been arrested with others already being
convicted by the commercial crimes courts. In the previous
financial year, we finalized eleven disciplinary cases ...
nine disciplinary investigations hearings are in progress and
we hope to finalize them before the end of the quarter. A lot
still needs to be done including following up on the issues
that emanated from the evidence at the Zondo Commission.
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Our collaboration with the Investigative Directorate of the
National Prosecution Authority has ensured that we cast the
net wider in our efforts to hold people to account. The
forensic investigators are currently investigating 26 cases
within the agency. We are also encouraged by the work that is
being undertaken by our forensic investigation capacity and
are determined that we will succeed in this regard.
In this financial year, we will put more resources towards the
fight against corruption including strengthening partnerships
with fraternal law enforcement authorities. Our march towards
a clean, responsible and corruption free State Security Agency
is unrelenting and we are confident that we will regain our
status as the custodian of national security in this regard.
The President of the Republic, His Excellency Cyril Ramaphosa,
has on several occasions expressed the need for fit-for-
purpose domestic and foreign intelligence services. The fit-
for-purpose intelligence agencies will be mandated to inject
intelligence to assist government in exercising control over
risks, threats and opportunities in the advancement of South
Africa’s national security objectives.
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The task for realizing fit-for-purpose intelligence
capabilities starts with the training of newly recruited
intelligence officers. For this, we seek to use the
Intelligence Officer Development Programme, IODP, to produce
not only well-rounded intelligence officers, but fit-for-
purpose intelligence officers armed with the requisite
competencies - knowledge, skills, and attitudes - based on
eleven fields. The IODP is developed as an internship program
and seeks to provide training to candidate intelligence
officers, commonly known as Cadets.
Hon members, we are excited to announce that there will be a
group of 75 candidate intelligence officers that will undergo
the programme next month. These young officers will be trained
in Mahikeng for a period of 12 months. The programme that they
will undergo is divided into different training fields
including soft-skills development, national security and
intelligence management, building blocks of national security
strategy, alignment of intelligence to government business, as
well as State Security input to government business.
Through our Intelligence Academy, we will continue to provide
education, training and development interventions in order to
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improve efficiency in the conduct of both core business and
noncore business functions. This includes engendering the
country’s constitutional values in the business of the agency;
asserting the principles of sound financial management and
accountability; inculcating and promoting adherence to
operational and corporate-related governance mechanisms and
ethical conduct.
In order to achieve the above, we will ensure that the
continuous conduct of ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, we have
lost your connection. Can you just repeat and start from the
last sentence that you were busy with, please?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can you hear me now?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I can hear you, hon
Minister. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... In order to achieve the
above, we will ensure that the continuous conducting of
development research aimed at reinforcing curriculum
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development efforts is in place. Steps will also be taken to
ensure that curriculum development and its implementation are
based on an accurate and reliable needs assessment.
With regard to the current establishment, I am also glad to
announce that we have stabilized the management component with
regard to the permanent filling of posts. As we stand here, we
have filled the one remaining DDG level post which means all
posts at that level are now permanently filled.
We have also filled 21 general manager positions and the
remaining vacant posts at this level are all at recruitment
phase and should be filled by the end of the second quarter.
Thirty-three manager positions have also been permanently
filled and the thirteen remaining are at various stages of
recruitment.
We have also done a great deal of work with regard to the
placement of members who previously did not have positions due
to organizational changes that happened in the past.
The cherry on top is the appointment of the director-general
who had to hit the ground running both in terms of stabilizing
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the organization internally and restoring our relations with
our counterparts around the globe. We are on the road to
recovery and we are confident that we have the requisite will
and energy to achieve our desired goal.
There is a trend that countries redefine their view of
national security, which involves an expanded
reconceptualization of security. This paradigm shift is the
result of our major changes in our society with regard to:
Technology; perception of threats; interpretation of human
rights; and ownership of telecommunications.
This has led to a shift towards more proactive and preventive
measures against threats such as international terrorism,
transnational organized crime, in other words pre-emptive
intelligence. For South Africa to align with the global
trends, in the medium-term, we will be focusing on building
and strengthening capability and capacity for a relevant
Signals Intelligence as well as reinforcing the legislation.
Electronic or telecommunications technology crimes have been
on an upward increase. The advancement of electronic
communication technologies introduces both new opportunities
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and challenges. The convergence of the 5G, Big Data, Internet
of Things and Cloud Computing Technologies; requires
significant research and adaptation to lawful interception
solutions.
The technological developments have made internet an
increasingly important part of our lives. In an effort to
strengthen cybersecurity, the national communications will
continue to build and strengthen capability and capacity in
order to proactively combat emerging cyber threats and
potential cyberattacks. The increased incidents of cybercrime
require a comprehensive approach on cyber security to protect
the country’s critical network infrastructure.
The growing usage of the over the top services, due to their
end-to-end encryption, remain a challenge to the
infrastructure for lawful interception through the Office for
Interception Centres. In recognition of this, the process of
upgrading the Lawful Interception Monitoring System, with
advanced state-of-the-art technology that will enable the OIC
to deliver a value add service is underway. The system will
further strengthen the crime fighting capacity of the law
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enforcement agencies, and the prosecuting arm of the state to
successfully prosecute cases.
The National Treasury and the Criminal Assets Recovery Account
have made funds available for SSA to develop and implement
targeted cybersecurity awareness and training programs within
the law enforcement agencies and prosecutorial authority. In
so doing, SSA will be accelerating the implementation of the
National Cybersecurity Policy Framework which incorporates the
development of the cybersecurity legislative framework and the
establishment of an integrated cyber capability and capacity.
The Cybersecurity Bill is being finalized and will be
submitted for Parliament processes in this financial year.
The current technological environment renders it necessary for
the Office of the Interception Centres to keep abreast of the
latest developments within the telecommunications space. In
recognition of this, the OIC has established a Research and
Development committee geared towards engaging various
stakeholders and advising the OIC on the establishment of a
research and development capability, and implementation of
relevant 4th industrial revolution programs and beyond, to
ensure a sustainable OIC lawful interception capability. There
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is also significant progress in the process of establishment
of the cyber security centre within the State Security Agency.
On the RICA judgement, the undertaking we are making is that
we intend to implement key provision which are responsive
response to the constitutional judgment, and the deficient of
the RICA provisions as they pertain at the moment.
Hon members will recall that South Africa deployed its troops
in Mozambique as part of the SADC Mission in Mozambique,
SAMIM, on 15 July 2021. This was a mission to support the
Republic of Mozambique to combat terrorism, acts of violence
and extremism carried out by insurgents of Ahl as-Sunnah wa
al-Jama’ah since October 2017.
Since its deployment, SAMIM has registered a number of
milestones, including recapturing villages, dislodging
terrorists ... which has contributed to creating a relatively
secure environment for safer passage of humanitarian support.
Going forward, the South African government will continue to
support efforts to deal with these terrorist acts in the
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region because our own stability is inextricably linked with
the stability of the region.
The other important matter of national security that we need
to clarify involves the repatriation of South African citizens
from conflict zones ... ISIS operatives to enter our borders.
That allegation is without substance; the reality is that we
are obliged by both domestic and international law to take
care of our citizens wherever they may be around the globe.
Section 21(3) of the Constitution provides that citizens have
the right to enter and remain in, and reside anywhere in the
Republic. However, ... foreign military assistance act is
appropriately sanctioned.
The same can be expected with our citizens that are trapped in
the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is a
global crisis that should be stopped from any further
escalation ... add what voice and effort we can as a country
towards this historic task.
It has become clearer that institutions ... Global peace,
equitable development and conflict prevention and management
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require all the elements that underpin justice, independence,
predictability, equality of all nations before principles and
fair censure.
Too often, many lives have been lost in wars ... that hardly
censured the strong as evenly as ... proxy and hybrid wars
because of conflicting interests amongst or between the strong
that the existing institutions and systems for global
governance cannot effectively mediate, adjudicate and resolve
in an independent, just, predictable and fair manner.
The challenges that humanity and countries are already facing
that are only going to become more acute from climate change,
a growing global population ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member,
hon Minister, the network is not very stable. I will allow you
to start with the issue that you raised from climate change so
that the hon members on the platform can hear what you were
saying about it. If you can kindly just repeat that and then
move to your conclusion, please.
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you. The challenges that
humanity and countries are already facing that are only going
to become more acute ... urbanization, inequality and global
pandemics call for a movement towards a ...
In conclusion, House Chairperson and fellow South Africans,
with this Budget Vote, we want to assure South Africans that
when it comes to national security, no South African will be
left behind. Thank you for the opportunity, hon House Chair.
Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and my
colleagues, every year around this time we do Budget Votes. We
all know how important this is for the functioning of the
government departments. But in our debates we seem to be
repeating whatever we said the previous years which means that
even if there are some improvements in the service delivery by
the departments, but the progress is very slow. The Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence is established in terms of
section 2 of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40
Of 1994.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Chair. Chairperson, again,
we cannot hear the hon Maake. I am wondering if it is my
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network or he is also suffering from the same networking
incapabilities like the previous speaker. We didn’t hear
anything from the first part of the speech.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maake, may I
request that you start your speech again, please. We will
reset the clock. Just start from the beginning again. It is
important that members know what the other members are
debating in this Budget Vote debate. Could you just start
again, please?
Mr J J MAAKE: Hon Chair of Chairs, every year around this time
we do Budget Votes. We all know how important this is for the
functioning of the government departments. But in our debates
we seem to be repeating whatever we said the previous years
which means that even if there are some improvements in the
service delivery by the departments, but the progress is very
slow. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is
established in terms of section 2 of the Intelligence Services
Oversight Act, Act 40 Of 1994. The purpose of the committee is
to perform an oversight function over the intelligence and
counter intelligence functions of the services which include
state security agency, the intelligence division of the SA
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National Defence Force - the Defence Intelligence - and the
Defence Division of the SA Police Service - known as Crime
Intelligence. Even though not categorically mentioned in the
Act, the committee also perform oversight o the financial
intelligence centre.
Section 3 of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40
Of 1994 provides that the committee amongst others in
exercising the oversight responsibility, obtain audit and
other reports from the Auditor-General and consider the
financial statements of the services, consider, review and
make recommendations about corporation, rationalisation and
demarcation of intelligence function performed by the
services, refer any matter in relation to an intelligence
activity which the committee regards as relevant to the
promotion and the respect of the Bill of Refights to the SA
Human Rights Commission.
The establishment of the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, JSCI, as opposed to what existed during the
apartheid era was to prevent the abuse of the intelligence
services by the powers that be, it ensured civilian oversight
of the services in a nonpartisan manner. This Budget Vote
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debate takes place after what was widely termed the July
unrest. During this unfortunate period two provinces of our
country were engulfed with wide looting and unrests, that is,
KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. During this time two of our
intelligence services, State Security Agency and the SA Police
Crime Intelligence mandated to deal with our domestic issues
were riddled with instability at senior management level. In
the State Security Agency there was no permanent director-
general, DG, and most of the senior managers were acting. We
are hoppy to announce that the situation has changed with the
appointment of the ambassador Thembi Majola as the DG. As the
JSCI we have complete confidence in her ability to lead the
State Security Agency into greater heights.
In the SA Police Service’s, SAPS’s, Crime Intelligence, CI,
the vacancy that resulted from the removal of Lieutenant-
General Peter Jacobs remains. The SA Police Service’s Crime
Intelligence still lacks a permanent divisional commissar. The
Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is still seriously
concerned with the situation as especially on senior
management.
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We welcome the announcement by the Minister, the hon Cele,
that the new National Police Commissioner has been tasked with
stabilising SAPS’ Crime’s Intelligence. We are looking forward
to having a division that is responsive to the needs of our
people by ensuring that all filled and are safe. The stability
of this division will go a long way to curb elicit mining,
police corruption, human trafficking and drug trafficking.
In relation to the challenges within the State Security Agency
we received assurances from the agency to fill all senior
positions to ensure stability], amends the General
Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill to separate the agency into
foreign and domestic branch and implement the recommendations
made by in the High Level Panel report directives.
We are, however, not happy with the lack of the adherence to
the National Treasury in the preparations of the annual
performance plans, APPs, by the agency to ensure that their
targets are specific, measurable, achievable, reliable and
time bound. The State Security Agency assured the committee
that they will ensure that their targets are smart in the
future.
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The Defence Intelligence continues to do a good work. This
division have to be commended for its continued loyalty and
service to the country. The Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence is however concerned with the continuous cutting
of the budget of this division. The Intelligence Division of
the Defence Force must gather, correlate, evaluate and use
strategic intelligence for purposes of ensuring national
security. The cutting of this budget make their work very
difficult. Under the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Act 38
of 2001, FIC, was established as an institution outside the
Public Service but within the public administration as
envisaged in section 195 of the Constitution. The JSCI also
perform oversight over the FIC. The principal objectives of
the centre is to assist in the identification of the proceeds
of unlawful activities and the combating of money laundering
activities in the financing of terrorism - terrorist related
activities. The centre must also make information available to
investigating authorities to the intelligence services of the
SA Revenue Service, Sars, to facilitate the administration and
enforcement of the laws of the Republic.
In conclusion, the ANC supports Budget Vote 8. The committee
however is still seriously worried about the slow pace of the
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implementation of the High Level Review Panel’s
recommendations. The JSCI comprising of members of the
National Assembly and the NCOP faces constant challenges of
meeting dates and times. There is always clashes of meetings
between portfolio committees and select committees in the
NCOP. This result in JSCI’s meetings not able to quorate.
Because of this the JSCI is usually unable to take decisions
and very often it causes roll over of agenda items from
meeting to meeting. As suggested by the High Level Review
Panel and the legacy report of the previous committee, the
committee needs dedicated members to this committee. Again,
given the demands of intelligence oversight, the idea of a
dedicated capacity for the JSCI needs to be explored further.
This recommendation needs to be implemented by Parliament as
they have been signed off by the President of the country. In
conclusion, once more, the ANC supports the budget.
Mr D KOHLER: Hon House Chair, there is only one question
really: How much longer are South Africans prepared to wait?
It took years to complete the High-Level Review Panel Report
in which it we finally saw confirmation of the open secret of
the looting via the State Security Agency. And here we are
four years and a Zondo Commission later, and nothing. Where is
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our money? We need it. Our schools, clinics, hospitals, police
stations, roads, bridges – it is all collapsing and not a cent
of those billions has been recovered.
As far as I’ve ascertained the only criminal charges that have
been laid in my particular arena are those that I logged at
the Cape Town Central police station on 3 March this year.
These were against one Arthur Fraser. It was under his watch
as Deputy Director for Operations at the SSA that the
Principle Agent Network was established. Millions, if not
billions of Rands were reportedly siphoned off or spent
irregularly, and the DA has requested South African Police
Service, Saps, to investigate possible criminal offences. If
ever there was a treasonous act, this would be it.
Given the political climate of the day, and the zero-tolerance
stance South Africans are now apparently taking against
corruption and political interference, I’m hoping that Saps
will do its utmost in investigating these and so many other
charges against Fraser. Bear in mind that two previous charges
we laid simply disappeared without trace. The revelations, day
after day, at the Zondo Commission, confirmed every word that
has ever been written about the State Security Agency – the
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suitcases of money walking out the door, the so-called
robberies of millions as people used the SSA safe as an ATM,
the politicians involving themselves in operational matters.
Gun on hip 007 wannabes.
Despite the HLRP report, despite the Zondo Commission, those
behind the multibillion Rand looting have lived fine, rich
lives, on huge fat salaries, for years and years and some have
retired and are living off of huge fat state pensions – with
those extra millions of ours ensuring their retirements are
exceedingly comfortable.
After the smoke cleared, the Ministers behind the catastrophic
lack of Intelligence before the multibillion-rand ANC-
factional coup attempt caused unrest in KwaZulu-Natal and
Gauteng last year, were held to account like this: Left for
pastures new, been promoted, and left untouched.
The fact that this country was caught with its pants around
its ankles has confirmed our global laughingstock status. The
downhill slide which began when the Head of Interpol – our
very own Jacki Selebi — was jailed, is now plummeting at warp
speed. A 10-year-old on the internet would have realised
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something big was up, but our highly paid intelligence
services seemingly didn’t look, understand or were so busy
with their in-fighting than to protect the citizens of our
country. Hundreds of people died and businesses and lives were
ruined as a result.
Having worked on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence
for nearly three years, I must say I have never, in my 18
years in Parliament with some five portfolios behind me, seen
a committee that appears to be undermined by both officials
and Ministers. I’ve looked from every angle but have no other
option but to conclude that it is deliberate. This committee
is a shadow of what it could be and should be. I believe that
the fact that meetings are held behind closed doors is the
main factor. Would Saps be late or present an indifferent APP
and budget to the police portfolio committee? Never. Yet, the
section of Saps that answers to the JSCI, Crime Intelligence,
would. If the presentations of the State Security Agency were
held before television cameras, I’ve no doubt they would
arrive on time, and present along specific, determined
Treasury Guidelines.
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There are officials — perhaps flaunting that same hoary old
chestnut that they earn more than Members of Parliament, MPs,
and have permanent jobs unlike MPs — who either can’t or won’t
do the work. More dangerously one has to ask if there is a
possibility that they deliberately hide information from the
JSCI. Certainly, no reference is ever made to the Zondo
Commission revelations.
I have deliberately left Defence Intelligence out, as they
deliver quality product on time, despite annual budget cuts.
If the past 28 years taught us anything at all, it is that
government — no matter who is at the helm — cannot and should
not be allowed to govern without meticulous oversight. Yet
doing effective oversight on this committee is like fumbling
drunk through a hall of mirrors. Around the world equivalent
agencies are accountable to the Congress and the Senate, or
various upper houses. Yet here, not so much. In fact, hardly
at all. South Africa simply cannot afford this veil of secrecy
over specifically the SSA. It goes against the HLRP report’s
edicts, but nothing has changed; nothing is out there. Except
what is leaked in the spy vs spy dirty linen exposés.
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There are those who will argue that if we had a coherent,
professional intelligence cluster, we would never have had two
Ministers and a Deputy Minister held hostage in Pretoria as
they were in October last year. Intelligence should have known
that the struggle war veterans were going to do something
dramatic, and where were the so-called VIP protection
personnel? That three Ministers were put in a position of
extreme danger, tells us our Intelligence Services learned
nothing from their failures. And the cherry on the top of a
massive pile of irritation is that the NPA has simply dropped
all charges. This government’s idea of a speedy implementation
is to make an announcement, then wait four years, then
establish a commission, then wait two years, and then hope
everyone has lost interest. Promises are made but just not
kept. Recommendations are made but not implemented, or done so
slowly that entire five-year Parliamentary terms pass, and so
does the expertise and institutional knowledge about the
subject matter. That is how this game is played. That is how
MPs are played.
The HLRP report recommended that there be a shift to return
the role and philosophy of our democratic intelligence
capacity back to their constitutional origins. It had of
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course been criminally warped during the Zuma years to serve
anything but this country. Yet we’ve seen a Minister bring
back people on suspension and promote them – some say on the
instruction of the President, and now another Minister has
popped out the revolving door that sits at the entrance of
this Intelligence Ministry, and is trying to clean up that
mess. Rinse, wash, repeat. As far as anyone knows, further
billions are still streaming out of the SSA via the hands of
those employed by that agency and given to people who have no
right to it. Where is the investigation into the involvement
of members of the national executive in intelligence
operations? Who knows? Reports emerge, questions are asked,
then ignored or shoved under the carpet.
Here’s a prime example of carpet stuffing: On 1 September it
was claimed that an ANC MP, Dr Harvard, was possibly spying
for China, sharing classified information about our country
with the Chinese Communist Party. And this report allegedly
comes via a leak from the sieve-like State Security Agency.
So, I wrote to the President, who was then the de facto
Minister of State Security, asking that this report be
released. After that, radio silence.
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Before the Jackie Selebi era which opened the doors to a
veritable tsunami of maladministration, corruption and theft,
our intelligence services not only served the nation, but had
a fine reputation globally. This committee, DA and ANC members
alike, works hard and works together in the hopes that we may
claw that reputation back from the depths into which it has
been plunged. Frankly, if I’d had my way we would not have
debated today, and left these departments to whistle for their
budgets. Thank you, House Chair.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, the state of our
intelligence services, civilian intelligence in particular, is
now to be assessed in light of the global balance of forces as
imperialist interests collide in the Ukraine Russia war — a
proxy war between Russia and NATO. Most recently the United
States has explicitly stated that it would directly
participate in defence of Taiwan should China invade it. Of
course, a few decades ago, although totally in support of
Taiwan, it was unimaginable for a US sitting President to make
such a statement, at least from a diplomatic point of view.
Here in our country, we have to be cognisant of the
implications of this outright warmongering by imperialist
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forces. Since World War Two there has been a successful
diversion of this confrontation between world powers into
proxy wars like in Vietnam and Angola. Since the fall of the
Soviet Union, the US and NATO have been the only military game
in town. Examples abound from Afghanistan to Libya and Syria.
Nevertheless, since the Ukraine, a white European country,
western powers are looking for confrontation with Russia and
or China. And for such a confrontation, they are looking not
to take place in their own countries but in a proxy country
elsewhere. We are NATO’s target for a propaganda war in
support or justification of the war efforts. This seeks to
change our thinking completely in favour of NATO, a Euro
American war alliance, to think of them as a global moral ...
[Inaudible.] ... engaged in a just war.
These issues are however of almost minimal concern for our
intelligence community. It is not possible to discern how our
intelligence services are responding to this proliferation of
propaganda efforts within our country by imperialist forces.
Recall the time when Zimbabwe’s land revolt occurred and
President Mugabe conceded to a land reform programme, the west
mobilised many formations from non-governmental organisation,
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NGOs, up to and including trade unions — the precursor to a
military invasion of Zimbabwe, which President Mbeki
successfully resisted. We must ask what objectives of such an
effort, in relation to the Ukraine are, and may very well be
that our public and consciousness is being prepared for an
even bigger war — a confrontation of the real world powers.
If such a confrontation takes place, we may be asked to pick a
side, and since bias media propaganda has been in favour of
NATO, our people may, in their numbers, seek to join a war in
favour of NATO. There have been so many invasions, wars and
conflicts in Africa, Middle East and East Asia yet the white
dominated DA has never taken so keen an interest as we have
seen in the Ukraine. This obviously racist bias must be named
for what it is. For the DA white lives matter more than those
black Africans in particular.
But relevant to our discussion, this visit by the leader of
the DA to the Ukraine must have us ask intelligence state
security and national security concerns. Is or are they
positioning themselves as a threat to national security? The
South African intelligence community will be caught with its
pants down in this intelligence infiltration, even within the
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ranks of Parliament, Cabinet and strategic bodies like the
Rapid Deployment Intelligence, RBI.
Even with the global pharmaceutical industrial complex, its
general approach is prioritising profits over global heath.
our intelligence services have had no ability to process these
threats. That is why we can receive outdated or soon to be
outdated or soon to be expired vaccines.
Above all, the very fact that there is monopoly over western
vaccines is itself a key intelligence concern which does not
even arise within the services. This is because as a start the
SSA is still to regain its stability and rid itself of corrupt
elements, rogue agents and overpoliticisation across all
services.
There is yet to be any arrest and successful prosecution of
those who looted secrete accounts and resources of the
service. Since the publication of the High Panel Report, not a
single arrest has been made. This lack of accountability on
corruption basking in the high echelons of the state remains
the weakness of the President Ramaphosa government. People who
demonstrate utter incompetence are simply shifted around.
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There is ample evidence of not only incompetence but lies,
complicity and possibly involvement of the SSA and CI in the
July unrest. Still, nothing has happened to any of these
elements. The SSA APPs came less than a year after the July
unrest but no pragmatic intelligible plan is in place to clean
the agency by surrendering rogue elements to prosecution.
How will we know that the SSA is stabilising? Is when key
spies at the highest echelons of the agency are being
prosecuted for the ... [Inaudible.] ... capabilities for
political ends. Merely moving SSA into Presidency has yielded
no fruits yet, except possible involvement of it in the run up
to December ANC conference where the current head of State
needs to defend his head.
Above all and across all intelligence agencies, there is zero
competence in the cybersecurity capabilities. As a country we
are rated in the top 10 countries in the world who are
susceptible to cyberattacks. In the age of convergence our
country cannot afford to be under capacitated in terms of its
cyber security oversight.
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At the centre of politicisation and general organised crime,
is also a well-organised network of assassination gangs —
people who are trained and employed to be assassins. They kill
from the ordinary tender conflict in townships, up to and
including drug contestations. Many politicians also employ
assassination services of these criminal networks. There is
very little hope that assassinations will ever be dealt with
precisely because politicians, in settling their contestations
over state resources or internal political party battles, use
and sustain assassins. How then are we to align ourselves to
giving any of the tax payers money to this entity when all it
has ... [Inaudible.] ... so incompetent is the SSA that its
APP is not aligned to National Treasury regulations, and the
budget does not have an articulation with sub-operational plan
with largely unintelligible targets. The EFF outrightly
rejects this budget. Thank you very much.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Chair of Chairs, South Africa, the
region, continent and world face unprecedented and widespread
political and socioeconomic instability. Violent extremism is
spreading and is, in fact, already establishing itself upon
our borders and within our country. Such has been further
enabled due to growing poverty and inequality, challenges
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associated with transition towards democratic governance and
the failure of our defence and security sectors to modernise
and stay abreast of technical innovation and advancement.
The enemies of our fragile democracy remain within and outside
of our borders, and be under no illusion, their devious and
treasonous objectives are supported by the very best
technology and human resource capital that money can buy.
State security, with its necessary culture of secrecy has a
long and painful history in South Africa. The same question or
conundrum always arises. Who will guard the guardians? Who
will ensure that our largely unaccountable state security
apparatus is not politicised and weaponised against the very
institution it is established to protect.
Another serious challenge faced by our state security
apparatus is that of information gathering and ensuring the
information obtained is correct, in respect of the current
security threats and emerging security threats in Africa. Our
focus must not only be on identifying and analysing the
correct data, but additionally, on communicating this
information to the relevant structures with the Justice, Crime
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Prevention and Security, JCPS cluster, thereby ensuring that
such critical information is timeously acted upon by
government.
The role of Parliament in democratic civilian security-sector
governance has never been more critical, as we advance the
security of our citizens. Are we as parliamentarians utilising
the numerous tools of oversight available to us as
legislators, to hold the state security apparatus to account?
Are we scrutinising the budget effectively? Is there even
sufficient information available to us to reach into what some
might term the Pandora’s box of secrets and secret
expenditure? Transparency and accountability of state security
of the citizenry, without compromising the nature of the
mandate of state security must be confected, to ensure that
shadow government with shadow policy is not resourced and
capitalised.
All security branch operators and services are subject to the
Constitution, the Rule of law, and should be conducted in the
best interest of the safety and security of the people of
South Africa and the democracy of South Africa.
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State security has been utilised in past to cause criminal
activities upon our own people for the purposes of controlling
by a few. The game did not change with the end of apartheid,
only the players changed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, we cannot
hear you. Please, switch off your video, so that we can have a
possible better audio feed ... [Inaudible.]
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: South Africa needs ...Can I finish?
In conclusion, the IFP supports the Budget Vote, subject to
the above serious concerns. We support the establishment and
the function of the state security apparatus, ... [Inaudible.]
... whose objective is the interest of the people of South
Africa. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): For the members who
are going to follow, it seems that right from the beginning,
we are experiencing difficulties with the feed coming through.
So, please, you don’t have to switch on your video, if you
experience connectivity problems. It is more important for us
to hear what you say.
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Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, we will make the ... [Inaudible.]
... the point that you make. Thank you.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, the members of the Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence must have a clearance
certificate to be a member. They are vetted, they are then
classified with a secret classification, because of the State
Security Agency and the work that they do.
However, now, if we look at the Deputy Minister, the hon Zizi
Kodwa, it came quite clear from the Zondo Commission that he
owes a certain person a R1,7 million and that, by the words of
the hon Deputy Minister himself, he is not in apposition to
repay that amount in the near future.
I cannot understand how it is possible that the Deputy
Minister for the State Security Agency can have a secret
clearance because he is compromised. He is in fact a security
risk for the State Security Agency, but still he is the Deputy
Minister of State Security.
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I therefore appeal, and I know that it is in the hands of the
hon President, to ensure that the Deputy Minister immediately
steps aside. He is compromising the security of South Africa.
There was quite a lot of controversy around the State Security
Agency, but still we continue with creating these
circumstances, which actually indicate to the public that we
are not going to do anything about it.
If we look at the response of the High-level review panel,
then they have mentioned a couple of matters. For instance,
they referred to secrecy and said that there is too much
secrecy that actually hampers accountability towards
Parliament. It also said, for instance, that the agency was
used for the faction infighting of the ANC and that it
actually became a cash cow for certain people and the misuse
of the State Security Agency.
Afrikaans:
Toe die Agentskap oorgeskuif het onder die Presidensie was
daar gesien dat daar ’n redelike kans is dat daar ’n
verbetering gaan wees. Die vraag wat egter nou ontstaan ...
Met die Adjunkminister wat ’n risiko is in terme van die
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sekuriteit en die veiligheid van die Agentskap self; die feit
dat ons nou sien dat daar nie meer openheid en
verantwoordbaarheid teenoor die Parlement is nie; die hele
werksaamhede nogsteeds in streng geheimhouding gehul is, soos
wat die paneel bevind het, ’n oormatige geheimhouding wat
onnodig is, onstaan daar nou ’n vraag. Die feit dat daar nie
opgetree word nie, die feit dat daar nie behoorlike
hervormings gedoen word nie, is die vraag: Is die
Staatsveiligheid-agentskap nou in die hande van ’n ander
faksie binne die ANC?
Hoekom word hulle beskerm? Is dit nou weer ’n geval dat ons
nou ook sien dat sekere mense beskerm word, seker mense in
posisies gehou word?
English:
If the hon President wants to create confidence in the State
Security Agency that they will be objective, then he must act
and he must act swiftly, or else you cannot blame the people
if they say that yes, it is now a different story, these are
now the President’s men that will see to him. I thank you.
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Ms M C DIKGALE: House Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy
Ministers, Members of Parliament, compatriots, ladies and
gentlemen, the strengthening of the security apparatus of the
country is necessary for the maintenance of peace and
stability in our country. The South African National Defence
Force and its division such as the Defence Intelligence play a
critical role in defending the sovereignty of our country as
well as providing support through peacekeeping missions across
the continent.
The creation of a better Africa and a better world requires
that we have a defence force with the requisite capacity and
skills. The Defence Intelligence is a division of the South
African Defence Force mandated by the Constitution of the
Republic of South Africa, as well as several Acts of
Parliament to provide defence intelligence, counter
intelligence and international co-operation services, in
support of activities, in pursuit of national security
objectives.
The Defence Intelligence continues to good work to serve the
citizenry. The Defence Intelligence, under the leadership of
General Mxakato, ought to be applauded for its exemplary
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commitment to accountability and oversight. This division
ought to be applauded for its continued loyalty and service to
the country.
The men and women of the Defence Intelligence, DI, do
extraordinary work with very little resources. The Defence
Intelligence has a historic challenge with capacity and has
previously cross-utilised resources to achieve projected
targets. Despite this, the Defence Intelligence has achieved
all its targets for 2020-21.
Efforts must be made to increase the DI’s capacity. This can
be done by recruiting young skilled officers who are fit for
purpose through the military skills development programme.
A key accomplishment in the 2020-21 financial year was to
introduce the Bachelor of Military Science in Defence
Intelligence, which will be taught at the Military Academy. We
congratulate the DI and welcome this initiative. This will
positively contribute to the calibre of intelligence officers.
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Additionally, the DI managed to set in motion plans to deal
with the vetting backlog, which has yielded some positive
results. This is welcomed.
The men and women of the DI have, for years, been subjected to
working in a condemned building. This matter has finally come
to an end through the intervention of the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, and the Minister of Public
Works, and the DI will soon be properly accommodated.
Despite these challenges, the officers of the DI have served
with vigour and commitment and ought to be applauded and
thanked for their hard work, despite difficult circumstances.
The DI tabled its APP at and proposed budget on time and
complied with all prescripts. The DI’s plans for the coming
financial year give a measure of assurance that the DI is
committed to contributing to the Apex priorities of building
social cohesion and safe communities, a capable, ethical and
developmental state and a better Africa and a world.
To this end, based on historic performance, and proposed
budget allocation, the annual targets for 2022-23 are
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achievable. The DI intends to focus on the following in 2022-
23: defence intelligence, counterintelligence, international
co-operation services in support of activities, in pursuit of
national security objectives, which are to strengthen its
cyber security capacity, to increase its intelligence and
vetting products. The ANC supports the Budget Vote of the
National Treasury. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr N G Kodwa): Thank
you very much, Chair of Chairs, hon members, Chairperson on
the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, members of
the JSCI, hon Minister in the Presidency, hon Mondli
Gungubele, the National Intelligence Coordinating Committee,
NICOC, Ambassador, Msimang, Director-General of the Agency,
Thembi Msimang, the Veterans of the Intelligence,
distinguished guests, fellow South Africans, let me also take
this opportunity to thank this House for affording us an
opportunity and the space to present our Budget Policy
Statement for the financial year 2022-23.
The Minister has given a broad overview of the state of
national security in the country, and what our posture should
be, as the State Security Agency, SSA. However, before I
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expand on these broad issues, I want to begin this address by
condemning in the strongest terms, Chairperson, the pandemic
of gender-based violence which has become another threat to
our national security. The extent of abuse and gruesome
murders of women and children in this country, cannot be
tolerated and requires all of us in government, civil society
and citizens in general to work together to uproot this
scourge.
The unspeakable act of violence and abuse against Namhla Mtwa
from Umtata, as a case in point, is something that our society
should never allow. The other important issue that our
democratic society must deal with decisively, is this
phenomenon of racial polarisation, which continues to rear its
ugly head across all sectors of our society. We chose to adopt
a constitutional democracy because we wanted to build a
cohesive and prosperous nation, free of discrimination and
prejudice. We cannot abandon that noble objective, for the
simple reason that, our Constitution enjoins us to, amomg
others, heal the divisions of the past and establish a society
based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental
human rights.
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Racial intolerance and prejudice must be fought and eradicated
because it is a cancer that stifles instead of building a
prosperous nation. Let me just amplify some of the few issues
that should inform the agenda of the Agency as espoused by the
Minister Statement. It is true that the High Level Review
Panel Report on the State Security Agency has decried the
issue of excessive secrecy, and that we should adopt a mind
shift that is more accessible, open and responsive to the
needs of the public. Inspired by our founding values of
accountability, responsiveness and openness, our Constitution
guarantees the rights of everyone to access to information and
essentially, the right to know.
This places a fundamental responsibility on the Agency to be
transparent, accountable and responsive to the public whilst
safeguarding the basic tenet of secrecy as an intelligence
outfit. As such, we will be engaging on a large scale program
of public engagements and outreach with a variety of
stakeholders both within and outside the security
establishment to share ideas about the state of our national
security. As the Minister mentioned earlier, the process to
finalise the National Security Policy as well as the National
Security Strategy, is at an advanced stage, and shortly, both
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these strategic documents will require an input from the
members of the public.
We will kick-start the public consultation process without
delay, and that should be a springboard for our quest to
create a people centric environment towards giving
intelligence a human face. We will return to this House,
through the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, to
present our comprehensive program of public awareness and
stakeholder engagements. The other important matter that the
Minister highlighted, was the concern raised by the expert
panel report, which probed the circumstances that led to the
July unrest that erupted in KwaZulu-Natal and parts of
Gauteng. This relates to the centrality of the role that the
NICOC plays in the early warning system of our intelligence
environment.
The report has noted, which is now Prof Sandy’s Report, with a
great deal of concern, that despite NICOC’s warning through
the National Intelligence Estimates and the National
Intelligence Priorities, the entirety of government seems not
to be responsive to these alerts. In this regard, we would
like to impress on you, hon members, and the rest of
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government to heed the warnings and calls from NICOC to attend
to the issues as contained in the National Intelligence
Estimates and the National Intelligence Priorities.
This includes among others, human security challenges and
general service delivery matters that the people constantly
cry for. If we are to avoid a recurrence of the incidents of
July and other potential upheavals into the future, we have no
choice but to focus seriously on what the NICOC is directing
us to do. Prof Sandy’s Report, which brought the July incident
of last year, was right. Had we taken time to address the
issues that were identified by NICOC in its early warning, we
would probably have avoided most of these conflicts and
upheavals as we have seen in July and elsewhere. The growing
levels of poverty, inequality, lack of service delivery and
social tensions, which have been aptly identified in this
report, were all underscored in the National Intelligence
Estimates and National Intelligence Priorities.
Hon Chairperson, we are concerned about the state of our
national security in the country, and yes, we need a renewed
focus and vigour to deal with pervasive atmosphere of chaos
and wanton disregard for the law. We are redoubling our
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efforts together with our relevant law enforcement agencies to
combat these mindless acts of violence, economic sabotage and
lawlessness. The destruction and sabotage of critical
infrastructure and National Key Points, including the cable
theft and mindless targeting, and torching of state
institutions must come to an end.
Perhaps, hon members, we need to go back to basics and create
and recite our fundamental values as a country as espoused in
our founding document which is the Constitution of the
Republic. Section 198(a) provides that, I quote:
National Security must reflect the resolve of South
Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as
equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from
fear and want and to seek a better life.
Section 9(2) of the Constitution provides that, and I quote:
Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all
rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of
equality, legislative and other measures designed to
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protect or advance persons, or categories of persons,
disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
This is what guides our National Security Policy, which seeks
to achieve a national security framework, that is consistent
with the Constitution and with a specific focus on human
security as a priority, National Security Agenda. As required
by the Constitution, the policy proposes measures that would
enable the achievement of a national security framework which
gives effect to the constitutional imperatives that we have
mentioned which includes among others the following measure:
Measures that seek promote South Africans, as individuals and
as a nation, to live as equals and to live in peace and
harmony.
Measures that seek to enable South Africans, as individuals
and as a nation, to be free from fear and want. Measures that
seek to promote South Africans, as individuals and a nation,
to seek a better life. In this regard, hon Chairperson, we
need to use our National Security Policy to craft
interventions focusing among others on: The role of the
National Security structures in countering corruption within
government and organs of state. Measures to clarify the role
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of National Security Agencies in the delivery of the basic
services to all South Africans, with specific focus on social
services directed to the poorest of the poor. Measures to
counter organised crime and threats to national security.
Measures to promote the security of critical infrastructures
systems of the state that are the backbone of the provision of
critical and essential social services. Measures and the role
of the national security structures in youth development and
employment opportunities, national service and programs
intended to promote empowerment inclusion and participation in
particular in relation to city and rural economies. Measures
that seek to promote our foreign policy initiatives as an
instrument to advance national security agenda. Measures to
promote cooperation by all national security structures, in
the pursuit of the envisaged national security agenda.
Measures directed at preventing gender-based violence as a
national security focus. Measures aimed at promoting public
and private partnership in the pursuit of the National
Security Agenda envisaged in the Constitution. Measures aimed
at promoting environmental, natural resources, including
oceans and energy security, and lastly, measures aimed at
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countering organised crime and threats to national security.
We have to do all of these things, hon Chairperson and hon
members, to achieve our Constitutional obligation, which is to
safeguard the safety of our citizens and the territorial
integrity of the Republic.
I must conclude, Chairperson, by reflecting on another
important issue and focus area of our state security, which is
counter terrorism across continents, an increased terrorism
footprint on the African continent, an increased terror threat
in the SADC region, as well as notable challenges posed ...
[Inaudible] ... national terror threat level requires
rethinking of the country’s counter terrorism measures and
architecture. The reports about the alleged criminal
underworld and the financing of terror groups in the country
emanates from this reality.
To restore the territorial integrity of our country ...
[Inaudible] ... of organised crime. We are equally concerned
about the current activities of ... [Inaudible] ...
[Interjections.]
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The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Deputy Minister,
I’m afraid your time is up.
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr N G Kodwa): Thank
you very much.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): We have a very
terrible network. Thank you so much. Hon members, we shall
proceed. I recognise hon Hadebe of the ANC.
Mr B M HADEBE: Hon Acting House Chairperson, hon Deputy
Minister, hon Chairperson of the committee, hon members and
colleagues, we are gathered here today, a day before we
commemorate Africa Day, a reminder of how far our continent
has come and how true intelligence services. Many of our
nations have seen the dawn of democracy and continue to enjoy
safety and security provided by such institutions. Hon Deputy
Minister, you have just quoted a very relevant clause in our
Constitution that says:
National security must reflect the resolve of South
Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals,
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to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want
and to seek a better life.
Now hon Minister, this quote finds expression in the National
Development Plan, Vision 2030, NDP which seeks to confront the
triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequalities
through stimulating economic growth. In this regard, the State
Security plays a very critical role in assisting government to
achieve its strategic objective. If positioned and resourced
correctly, the State Security Agency will be the country’s
chief risk advisor, equipped with to guide and forewarn on
matters of national security.
It is critical colleagues, to remember that this budget vote
happens at a time when the country is experiencing numerous
challenges, both domestically and internationally. The slow
economic growth which contributes to the high unemployment,
poverty and equality, crime, a fight for limited resources and
a societal intolerance such as racism we witnessed in
Stellenbosch University. This a university of white supremacy
which impedes on social cohesion, national identity and pride
are just but a few of these examples.
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Despite this, hon Acting House Chairperson, the ANC-led
government has taken demonstrated steps in strengthening the
civilian and society service with the relocation of the State
Security Agency into Presidency. This is a very welcome move
because this centralisation will assist in strengthening the
civilian intelligence environment and will provide critical
strategic leadership when needed. Similarly, the appointment
of Ambassador Thembisile Majola as the new Director General is
highly welcome.
IsiZulu:
NgesiNtu ke sithi, igama lamakhosikazi malibongwe.
English:
This is not only that she is a female but her track record
speaks volume about her unquestionable credentials. Hon Acting
House Chair, this budget vote takes place 10 months after the
2021 unfortunate intelligence failure on the July unrest. As
such, central to the State Security Agency are the plans to
ensure reforms and strengthen the agency to provide effective
intelligence as to forewarn our government on matters of
national security.
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Although faced with many challenges, the State Security Agency
has committed in terms of the General Intelligence Laws
Amendment Bill the implementation of the recommendation made
in the High Level Review Report on the State Security Agency
and to deal with maladministration decisively. Hon Acting
House Chairperson ...
IsiXhosa:
... ohloniphekileyo uKohler-Barnard makayeke wethu ukuyibaxa.
English:
She says it took years to complete the High Level Review
Report and that is not true. The panel was established by
President Cyril Ramaphosa in June 2018 and it was made public
on 9 March 2019. So, it cannot be many years. Amongst the
recommendations in the High Level Review Report were that the
State Security Agency has to urgently institute forensic and
other investigations by competent authorities into the breach
of financial misconducts and other controls identified in the
agency. This is especially in relation to the principal agency
work, projects and other operations leading to disciplinary
and criminal prosecutions.
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Again, I have also listened to hon Dr Ndlozi who is saying to
us that, across all services there is no single arrest made.
However, hon Chair, in this regard the State Security Agency
has appointed an independent forensic firm accordingly to
investigate all suspected cases of malfeasance, corruption and
criminality in the agency. As a result, we have witnessed the
convictions of a number of employees including a former SA
Airways, SAA clerk Ms Kgaogelo Bopape who stole R170 000 and
was sentenced to six years’ imprisonment.
We are also committed to mass recruitment through the cadet
project which will augment the capacity of the agency. The
agency is going to implement vetting strategy. This will
enable the agency to root out elements of corruption within
its rank. In order to achieve the planned objectives, we call
upon the senior management in the State Security Agency to
work together with the newly appointed Minister and the
Director General. There ought to be a synergy and a decisive
adherence to prescripts and framework with regards to Annual
Performance Plans, APPs.
I want to call a spade a spade and not a digging tool.
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IsiXhosa:
Andikwazi ukugquma umbona ngamakhasi.
English:
We note with serious concern that from time to time, the
agency consistently submits their APPs very late. This weakens
the oversight processes and make the committee life difficult
to work. Again this year, it has continued to demonstrate such
by continuing to submit their APPs late. We want to the State
Security Agency’s senior officials to ensure that this comes
to an end. We welcome the improvement, when it comes to the
APPs, because in the previous financial year, they submitted
targets that are not smart. My colleague, also has alluded to
the fact that, this financial year there has been some
improvement even though not all of their targets are smart.
This must come to end. When we talk about smart targets we
talk about targets that are specific, measurable, achievable,
relevant and time bound.
We call upon the newly appointed leadership, the Minister and
the Director General not to hesitate to institute consequence
management against all the senior officials who are not
properly executing their duties. If they continuously submit
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their APPs very late, we call upon the Minister to act harshly
and decisively.
Hon Chair, the preamble in the NDP espouses that South Africa
belongs to all her people and the future of our country is our
communal future. Thus it remains a collective responsibility
to ensure that safety and security of our country becomes our
most relevant priority. It cannot be that safety and security
will be only left at the hands of the State Security Agency.
All South Africans have a role to play in ensuring that our
country is safe. In conclusion, the State Security Agency
remains committed to contributing to contribute to the apex
priority which is to build a capable, ethical and
developmental state, economic transformation, job creation and
education skills. The ANC supports this budget vote. I thank
you.
Afrikaans:
Mnr D J STUBBE: Agb Voorsitter, Minister, kollegas en lede van
die onderskeie veiligheidsentiteite, die vraag is: Waar moet
vandag se begrotingsdebat begin? Die veronderstelling was dat
die onderskeie jaarlikse prestasieverslae en -begroting van
die Staatsveiligheidsagentskap, die Verdedigingsintelligensie,
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SSA, en Polisieintelligensie, SAPS CI, tydig op geskeduleerde
datums aan die Staandekomittee vir Intelligensie, JSCI,
voorgelê moes word, maar helaas is dit nie gedoen nie,
aangesien SAPS CI en die SSA nie aan die spertye voldoen het
nie.
Dit is nie toevallig nie, maar is endemies aan die onvermoë om
na behore te funksioneer en om die JSCI se oorsigfunksie in
die wiele te ry.
Ten opsigte van DI is daar merkbare pogings om aan behoorlike
verslagdoening te voldoen en moet sekere vereistes ten opsigte
van hul begroting aan die Tesourie se voorskrifte aandag kry.
Wat SAPS CI aanbetref is dit duidelik dat die situasie
ongesonde is. Die entiteit is twee keer deur die JSCI terug
verwys, nadat die Minister te kenne gegee het dat hy geen
dokument onder oë gehad het nie en dat hy nie enige dokument
afgeteken het nie, alhoewel sy handtekening op die dokumente
verskyn.
Amptenare se goeie werk word ongedaan gemaak deur seniorlede
wat steeds in hul eie magstryd gewikkel is. Die SSA is ook nie
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beter daaraan toe nie en hul begroting voldoen glad nie aan
die vereistes wat die Tesourie gestel het nie, wat meebring
dat die jaarlikse prestasieverslag nie na wense is nie. Die
afgelope paar jaar toon ’n merkbare verswakking.
As ons die sitsuasie ontleed, het die agteruitgang alreeds in
2009 begin onder Minister Siyabonga Cwele, deur sy goedkeuring
van die sogenaamde Principal Agent Network, soos ingestel en
beheer deur Adjunkdirekteur-generaal, ADG, van operasies,
Arthur Fraser. In sy termyn, het Jeff Maqetuka, Gibbon Njenje
en Moe Shaik bedank, omdat hul ondersoek na die Gupta-broers,
wat al sedert 1993 as immigrante besighede in SA begin het,
afgekeur is. Die vraag ontstaan of staatskaping nie sy
ontstaan te danke het aan Cwele se versuim om op te tree nie.
Die agteruitgang is voortgesit deur Minister David Mahlobo,
Bongani Bongo, Dipuo Letsatsi-Duba, en Ayanda.
Daar was vyf Ministers in 12 jaar, terwyl daar sewe DG’s
sedert 2009 tot nou aangewys is. Geen intelligensiediens kan
funksioneer met so ’n omset van Ministers en DG’s nie.
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Die toksiese sitsuasie in die SSA het ontstaan toe Arthur
Fraser as adjunkdirekteur-generaal met medewerking van Cwele
en Mahlabo die sogenaamde, Pan-projek gebruik het om groot
bedrae geld te bekom vir verskeie onwettige operasies, onder
meer Operasie Mayibuye waarvan R2 miljoen tot voordeel van
Jacob Zuma was. Toevallig is Fraser in 2016 deur Zuma as DG
heraangestel.
Die misbruik van geheime fondse vir projekte is nooit gestaak
nie. President Ramaphosa was genoodsaak om die
hoëvlakhersieningspaneel aan te stel, nadat sensitiewe
inligting na die media gelek is.
Die panel, onder leiding van Dr Sydney Mufamadi, het ná
deeglike ondersoek ’n verslag opgestel waarin feitlik alle
ongerymdhede in die SSA ontbloot is. Ongelukkig is die tyd te
min om al die vergrype aan staatsgeld hier te noem, maar in
hul getuienis voor die Zondo-kommissie word gemeld dat R105
miljoen vir aankope van geboue voorgeskiet is, R244 miljoen
vir ’n projek waar Thulani Dlome by betrokke is, asook R19
miljoen in kontant aan die vooraand van die ANC vergadering te
Nasrec. Mufamadi het ook getuig dat David Mahlobo kwitansies
geteken het vir ongeveer R80 miljoen wat hy in kontant ontvang
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het. Bogenoemde bedrae is nooit in enige begroting van die SSA
openbaar gemaak nie.
Minister, soos reeds gesê, die Zondo-verslag verwys na
vergrype deur seniorpersoneel verbonde aan die SSA. Tot op
hede was daar nog net ondersoeke en is niemand inhegtenis
geneem nie, maar hulle was wel geskors met volle salaris. In
kontras word ’n voormalige finansiële klerk wat skuldig
gepleit het dat sy R170 000 gesteel het in hegtenis geneem en
tronkstraf opgelê.
Minister, hoe regverdig is dit teenoor die belastingbetalers
van Suid-Afrika dat swendelaars bestaande uit sommige
Ministers en hoëlui amptenare biljoene Rande misbruik het
sedert 2018 en steeds in die SSA werksaam is? Kan u die land
verseker dat hierdie persone ook tronk toe sal gaan? Ek dank
u.
Mr J J MAAKE (ON BEHALF OF THE DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE
MAJORITY PARTY): Hon Chair of Chairs, I am reading the speech
on behalf of the Deputy Chief Whip, who is not well. Hon
Chair, the SA Police Service Crime Intelligence's Annual
Performance Plan, SAPS-CI’s APP, flows from the national
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policing strategy which aims to promote a holistic
multidisciplinary approach to create a safe and secure
environment that is conducive to social and economic
stability, supporting a better life for all.
This APP is drafted in the backdrop of the 2021 July unrest,
which saw the failure of intelligence services. South Africans
have been asking a critical question: But, where was
intelligence when this was happening?
The reality is that people have lost faith in the intelligence
services, and this is a reality South Africa cannot afford.
There is an urgent need to reform and strengthen capacity in
our intelligence services, particularly SAPS-CI.
Intelligence must be targeted, timely, and yield positive
results.
Crime Intelligence must be a key contributor to prosecutions.
South Africans can no longer be expected to accept statistics
that: 400 rape cases are related to domestic violence; or
10 000 people are brutalised and sexually violated in just
three months in South Africa; or people continue to be victims
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of specialised crimes like money laundering, cybercrimes,
cash-in-transit robberies, to list a few. This is a disgrace
and deeply disturbing.
It cannot be that South Africans accept that the majority of
people raped are women and those most vulnerable in our
society. It is time that crime intelligence is focused on
serving the citizens. Although it remains our collective
responsibility to champion safety and security, however, those
charged with the responsibility to serve and protect must do
so earnestly.
It must be mentioned that the lack of a permeant head of SAPS-
CI is concerning and must be dealt with as this destabilises
the effectiveness of the service. Similarly, key management
positions must be filled.
It gives a great deal of assurance to see that SAPS-CI has
diligently aligned its targets and outcome to address the
criminality prevalent in our society. It is clear that the
SAPS-CI aims to decisively deal with and focus on: Crimes in
relation to critical infrastructure and illicit mining;
intensify efforts to reduce the prevalence of cash-in-transit
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heists; other aggravated crimes; combat cybercrime; commercial
and financial crimes; economic threats; and threats to the
state.
SAPS-CI must be commended for drafting an APP that seeks to
respond to matters of national security, although improvements
can be made. In order to achieve the planned objectives,
senior management needs to work together with the Minister and
the National Police Commissioner. There ought to be a desire
to work effectively.
The Deputy Divisional Commissioner for Crime Detection must
concur with the Minister on matters at all material times. The
SAPS-CI failure to meet legislative deadlines is concerning.
These delays weaken the oversight process and our role as
members of the JSCI.
On focus areas, the Minister of Police mentioned that there is
a demonstrated plan to deal with the instability in the SAPS-
CI. The appointment of a National Police Commissioner will
help in providing strategic guidance to SAPS-CI. However, the
appointment of a Divisional Commissioner is yet to be
finalised.
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The National Police Commissioner has already made strides to
stabilise the environment. For instance, the planned
decentralisation of SAPS-CI has been halted. This decisive
leadership ought to be applauded. There is a concern with the
continued underexpenditure in SAPS-CI whilst there are many
crimes. This must be addressed and ensure that all funds are
appropriately utilised.
The SAPS-CI, in its APP mentioned that executive authority is
a risk to the effectiveness of its work. This shows that there
is a bad working relationship between the Ministry and SAPS-
CI. This ought to be addressed to ensure the effective
functioning of SAPS-CI.
The SAPS-CI is undercapacitated. There is an urgent need to
recruit capable officers who are fit for the purpose. This
should be prioritised as it has a direct effect on crime.
SAPS-CI’s APP does not fully comply with government
regulations as it does not include a detailed budget. This
must be addressed.
Targets need to be improved to include issues, such as crimes,
happening at the borders. The SAPS-CI has repeatedly
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underspent on its capex yet more funds are being requested.
Such financial mismanagement must be dealt with. Management
must ensure the effective utilisation of all funds.
There is an urgent need to upgrade the cyberinfrastructure.
This is critical given the nature of crimes. There is a need
for SAPS-CI to foster a closer relationship with the Financial
Intelligence Centre, FIC, as money crimes have increased and
become more sophisticated.
The SAPS-CI overspends on certain line items, and underspent
on others. Proper budgeting and financial management are
required in this regard. There is a need to look into cross-
border crimes. These must be incorporated into the APP, as
border provinces, such as Mpumalanga and Kwa-Zulu Natal, are
facing serious challenges. Hon Chair, the ANC supports the
Budget Vote!
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Hon Chair. I wish
to acknowledge and accept the robust engagement where this ...
[Inaudible.] ... Budget Vote that we have tabled. We
acknowledge all those. Our attitude is to be an open agency,
especially against the background where we come from.
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Of all the challenges that have found expression in the Prof
Mufamadi Report and also Prof ... [Inaudible.} Report, and a
number of others structures, including ... [Inaudible.]
Against that background, our story is a very good story. We
take an attitude that it will be useful to listen at all
material times when these robust and frank discussions are
meant to critique our work. We believe that is the only way we
can be able to improve.
Just to say few issues, hon Chair, I think we take the point,
especially from the chair of the JSCI, that the remarks made
on the High Panel Review, in terms of speed and acknowledgment
of the fact that all top management posts, especially at home,
have been filled. The fact that we have to do to a lot of work
on this smart principle, we just want to make this point that
it is a theological issue that we have to do.
It is time! If you don’t understand our baseline, it means you
don’t see what we are trying to change. If you don’t see what
we are trying to change, it means our engagements will not
make sense. Therefore, that speaks for the indisputability of
smart principles. We are committed and making an undertaking
that urgently, we will attend to that.
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There has been a point of demystification. I have raised that
in my space. The Deputy Minister has raised it. We are quickly
going to be actually seized with, just to make sure that we
only make secret in this agency that which is secret; and that
which is overt, we take society along to exploit their
strength in giving us a stronger impetus as we move forward.
The issue of us being disrespectful: I thought we are trying
our best on this one, and we will continue. I thought the
member, Barnard, will say at least there is an attempt. I hope
we will meet again.
The hon Radebe, on the issue of an ethical state: That point
is taken. Indeed, hon Ndlozi should know the fact that arrests
have been made in some areas. Lastly, having acknowledged and
accepted the input by the hon House, we do make this
undertaking that we commit to make a difference.
I just want to say to hon Ndlozi: Whilst we appreciate a lot
of useful points that came from the opposition, once tablet to
the JSCI, we don’t know whether his view will demand ...
[Inaudible.] Ukraine ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
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The point we would like to make as my last comment on the ...
[Interjections.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chair! We need to hear the Minister ...
[Inaudible.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): One second! Raise
your hand, hon member, then I will recognise you! Hon
Mkhaliphi! One minute, hon Minister! Hon Mkhaliphi!
Ms H MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chair! Sorry, I am using a gadget which
is giving me problems. I am saying we didn’t hear the Minister
when he was responding.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, thank you very
much. Hon Minister, there is a gesture that you do, and then
you get frozen in between your points. If you may just try to
be in one position, if possible. You may repeat because you
still have got some one minute that is left.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Are you able to hear me now?
UNREVISED HANSARD
MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
TUESDAY, 24 MAY 2022
VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY)
Page: 77
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Loud and clear!
Thank you so much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I would say in my last, having
committed an undertaking that I will take home all the
critical points made by the committee. On the Ukraine issue, I
wanted to say that whilst we accept a number of points made by
hon Ndlozi; we are saying this presentation was done on
Thursday. We are not sure whether if he was exposed to that,
he would still have the same views.
However, the point we want to make is that our ...
[Inaudible.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, may I
just allow you to switch off your video, because you seem to
have a network challenge.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: How am I now?
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): I think it will be
better!
UNREVISED HANSARD
MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
TUESDAY, 24 MAY 2022
VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY)
Page: 78
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: So, I want to say that in the
global situation, our attitude is that the kind of a country
we are, considering our geolocation and our strength, we
always tactically position ourselves in a manner that can make
us influential across the entire globe.
The success of global peace is when all the parties who
actually matter in this space can actually listen to you. We
avoid giving an impression that we have got strength that we
do not have. We muster that we should or can actually champion
superior views – views that ... [Inaudible.] ...
[interjections.] ... enhancing our contributions are. Thank
you very much hon Chair. We appreciate the entire submissions
and the entire engagement by the House. Thank you very much.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you very much,
hon Minister. Hon members, you are reminded that the Debate on
Employment and Labour Budget Vote 31; and the Police Budget
Vote 28, including Investigative Directorate Budget Vote 24
and Civil Secretariat for the Police Service Budget Vote 21,
will take place at 16:30 on the virtual platform. You are
kindly reminded to log in at 16:30.
UNREVISED HANSARD
MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
TUESDAY, 24 MAY 2022
VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY)
Page: 79
Debate on Budget Vote 8 – National Treasury: State Security,
concluded.
The mini plenary session rose at 15:48.
Audio
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