Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Mar 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID) [GHC]
The House met at 15:00.
The Acting Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Deputy Speaker, working conditions means that there must be proper ventilation, but we are not feeling it here.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, On a point of order. For the first time we see you here. You were
very busy in a very conducive place.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, who gave you permission to speak? Order! Order!
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
CLUSTER 4 - ECONOMICS
Question 196:
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker and thank you very much to hon Singh for the question. Hon Singh, in 2020, South Africa submitted its law emissions development strategy to the United Nations in terms of the Paris Agreement. In this strategy we, in common with the overwhelming majority of countries, made an aspirational commitment to reach next carbon zero by 2050. This is in line with our resolve to make a fair contribution to the global efforts to address climate change. To this end, we have also substantially revised our nationally determined contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emission targets for 2030. We have also submitted it to the United Nations last year.
All countries agreed to face down coal use in Glasgow last year at the annual climate talks. This include South Africa as well as our major developing country allies and coal users, India and China. Both these countries are investing trillions of dollars in renewable energy as part of the global energy transition. South Africa cannot avoid this transition and we are fortunately blessed with excellent resources. We will not phase out coal overnight as some have suggested. We will ensure that the transition from coal dominated electricity system to a low carbon energy system is just so that no one is
left behind. The pace of the transition will be determined by the imperatives of this just transition, our international obligations under the Paris Agreement, the availability of international support, our need to protect communities from air pollution and our obligations to ensure energy security for the economy. [Time expired.]
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thanks to the hon Minister for the response. I see she is ably supported by the Deputy Minister today. The challenge that we have as those that are involved in the environmental sector and particularly those of us who sit in this committee, and even the Minister
herself who sits in the Cabinet, is that it is quite a juggling act when you have to look at that. We have to protect the environment at all costs, and that is our mandate. But yet you get others, maybe in the trade and industry sector and other sectors, that want to create jobs. It sometimes becomes quite a challenge for us to be able to do both. So, we have to do it in quite responsible way.
Having said that, hon Minister, I just want to quote an article published in The Economist on 22 January 2022, where South Africa was referred to, I quote: “world’s coal junkie.” It went on to state that, I quote: We were trying to quit, but we are being held back by again coal-depended politicians. I don’t know who those coal-dependant politicians are, but this is what the article says. What is also notable is that despite our heavy reliance on coal and access to coal reserves, we still cannot keep the lights on all the time in South Africa. I hope the President can convince the investors that tomorrow we are to invest in confidence and that we will keep the lights on for them to invest. My question is, how do you intend to pursue your colleagues in Cabinet - some of whom remain full about coal fired express - to embrace renewable energy, make use of the soft loans of billions of rand that we are receiving to assist in creating an environment that is favourable even for investors to invest in renewable energy and not only give money to Eskom because we know what Eskom does with the money? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Thank you very much, hon member. I think we both agree that the current situation of energy poverty in this country does present us with an opportunity to increase the renewable component of our electricity generation. There are our key 29 team which is compatible with significant increase in renewable energy generation. With no doubt my colleague will speak for himself in this Chamber. He has indicated to the Climate Commission that he is open to receiving presentations on revisions of the integrated resource plan, IRP, which obviously could be necessary if we were to achieve the lower limit of our nationally determined contributions. But I think the key juggling act as you say is that we have 88 000 workers that are directly dependent on the coal value chain in this country. If we use or multiply it by four we are talking about half a million people indirectly dependent on that value chain. As we transition we have to make sure that, first of all, we repurpose power plants that are going to be decommissioned. We have to make sure that we are ensuring that direct jobs are saved through that repurposing and we have a developed new value chains. In Mpumalanga, in particular, that we take care of those who will be in the extended coal producing value chain. We can’t let the most vulnerable in our society hold the highest burden of this transition.
Mr J J McGLUWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to know whether it is parliamentary to smoke a zol on a virtual platform. The hon Nazier Paulsen is smoking a zol on the platform.
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT: He is preparing to demonstrate it at my residence and he needs an extra courage.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I hope it is not true, hon members. Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think it would be unfortunate if that would be the case. We cannot see that.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, the hon member in blue must have his eyes checked.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s proceed and we don’t expect that to happen.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. I think what the hon Minister is doing is quite wrong, and you are allowing it. She continuously interjects. She did it just now when a point of order was raised in an attempt to reply. If other members do it, you are quick to send them out of the House. Please, let the Rules be followed to each and every person. I can’t just press anytime. The Minister see it fit when she wants to press it. Let’s follow the Rules of the House, Deputy Speaker. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do appreciate the appreciation of the Rules. They will be enforced at all times.
Mr P M P MODISE: Deputy Speaker, I am taking the question on behalf of hon Gantsho who is not here. I was waiting for you to give me the go ahead. Hon Minister, there is greater need to ensure that all stakeholders are on board in ensuring that there is a greater realisation of reduction in carbon emissions. Are there any partnerships with private stakeholders and other government entities and state-owned enterprises including Eskom that the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment has entered into towards supporting the country’s carbon reduction pledges contained in the nationally determined contributions? If there are any, what is the nature of such partnerships and how are they being funded?
Secondly, what is the level of such support from business and civic organisations? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. I think the first thing that is important to say in this regard is that we have the Climate Commission that was established by President Ramaphosa last year. This commission represents the private sector, organised labour, civil society and government and is responsible for assisting in determining just transition pathways and for ensuring that there is adequate research that these just transition pathways are properly developed, properly financed and that there is adequate support from all stakeholders in this regard. I think that it is also important to note that Eskom itself has been doing significant work on understanding what it will in Mpumalanga mean to have a decommissioning of the coal fired power stations that are due for decommissioning by 2030.
In this regard Komati Power Station has a proof of consent
project. It is a very interesting project and I would urge hon
members to visit it if they have the opportunity. We have
raised international financing for all the research that is
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 9
being done and Eskom itself has also raised money for the
repurposing with renewables of Komati Power Station. I think
in what we are doing there is an understanding of what a just
transition partnership will mean when it is implemented in
practice and this will guide our work going forward. Thank you
very much.
Mr D W BRYANT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The courts have
recently found against the Minister in a landmark judgement in
air pollution in the Highveld priority area. The judgment
singled out Eskom for its lack of transparency regarding
emissions as well as the Ministry for causing what it terms an
ordinary delay. In the light of the judgement, what steps will
you be taking to hold Eskom to account? Furthermore, does she
intend on appealing the judgement?
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT:
Thanks very much, hon Bryant. I think first of all I want to
say to you that one has taken the senior counsel’s advice in
this particular judgment. I am only going to get that advice
by Friday. I was correct in predicting that you will ask me
this question so I checked when will I get the advice. I think
then I will be able to indicate what my legal approach is.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 10
But let me say to you that in an attempt to settle this matter
before it went to court, I had offered to the nongovernment
organisations that I would draft the regulations. They
obviously had other reason why they wanted to pursue this
particular matter, and they did not agree to that settlement.
So one does not have an objection to the regulations per se. I
think what we all understand is the complex balancing act that
we face in terms of on the one hand protecting citizens from
air pollution, from preventing health complications, from air
pollution, from ensuring energy security and from making sure
that we have over all environmental protection. I think those
are complicated matters. You would know that prior to this
judgment one had asked the Climate Commission to air views
from all affected and interested parties on the question of
Eskom and civil societies to appeal on the air remissions
issues. [Time expired.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Minister, I think you have partially responded to what I
intend asking you right now. Hon Minister, while we must agree
that coal contributes to pollution at the end and has an
adverse effect on the environment, we cannot underestimate the
value of coal given our energy crisis including the cost of
diesel. But more importantly, South Africa exports coal to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 11
generate revenue. What impact is this going to have on the
economy and particularly those who live around these coal
mines?
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY, FISHERIES AND THE ENVIRONMENT: I
think, hon member, there is no intentions to irresponsibly
phase out the use of coal fired energy generation, either from
the perspective of saying that we would want to decommission
plants without providing alternative sources of generation or
form the perspective of saying that we will just continue with
coal fired generation. We have international commitments which
we intend to honour. We also have a commitment to climate
justice. Climate justice means that those who are most
vulnerable in our society, that includes workers in the coal
value chain and citizens who live in the towns in Mpumalanga
that will be most affected by this transition, are not left
out to carry the consequences of transitioning away from coal.
That is why we are putting so much effort together with Eskom
into researching alternatives looking at viable possibilities
with regard to repurposing of power stations and working
together with other Ministers, including the Minister of
Science and technology and the Minister of Labour, to make
sure that we have proper plans for reskilling and upskilling
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 12
workers and that no one is left behind. Thank you very much,
Deputy Speaker.
Question 180:
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, hon Deputy Speaker, and thank you for the question from
hon Maneli, the reasons for the declining of the SA Post
Office, Sapo, funding by National Treasury was due to fiscal
constraints, as stated by the Minister of Finance at the 2022
Budget Speech. However, there is consensus with the Minister
of Finance on the funding of the implementation of the Sapo of
Tomorrow strategy, which is a repositioning plan commencing in
the 2022-23 financial year.
The Minister of Finance is finalising the details. This is
because Sapo is a critical agent of government to deliver
services to the rural poor and in rural areas, in particular
where government offices are not physically present. And
because Sapo has a strong or far-reaching postal network. And
if this postal network is properly harnessed, the reach of the
postal network holds great potential for the positioning of
Sapo as a strategic contributor to the goal of ensuring both
economic and digital inclusion in South Africa. And I need to
set the record straight that the Portfolio Committee on
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 13
Communications, on 15 March, was not closed because the
department was soliciting support of the portfolio committee
for the Sapo bailout, and neither was Sapo soliciting
R9 billion in terms of a bailout, as mentioned in some
publications and what some people wanting to twist things
about it.
We requested the meeting to be closed to protect the
commercially sensitive information of Sapo. The SA Post Office
competes in a market with private players who can take that
opportunity to abuse that and move faster. So we needed that
meeting closed, as everybody would. And Sapo has requested
with the support and that is what National Treasury is
considering, R1,6 billion for funding over the two-year
period, and that is what the Minister of Finance is
considering for us.
Unlike the previous turnaround strategies, the Post Office of
Tomorrow and its implementation plan are not going to be
implemented parallel to the implementation of the corporate
plan of Sapo. There will be a corporate plan for Sapo
commencing in the 2022-23 financial year. And with the
licensing of high-demand frequency spectrum, the department is
going to ... [Inaudible.] ... Sapo, for some of the digital
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 14
technologies that are going to be rolled out commencing from
this financial year. And some of the services include the
deployment of digital hubs and email addresses for learners
that we work with ... private ... [Inaudible.] ... where they
do not reach. And also Sapo is the custodian of the postal
network, fiscal addresses and postal addresses. We were going
to use that service to extend the Financial Intelligence Centre
Act, FICA, services where the private sector and everybody can
pay for the services.
I also wish to state that the interdependent relationship
between Sapo and the Postbank is protected by law and the two
entities are required to enter into a service agreement to
ensure that the delivery of the services of both entities is
not impacted by the separation of the two entities. Thank you,
Deputy Speaker.
Mr B M MANELI: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, thank you,
Minister, for your response, we have noted with concern that
many Sapo offices had to close in recent years, and this meant
that people in those communities now have to travel further to
get services. And of course, the transportation costs are also
prohibiting a number of those from accessing such services.
How is the department planning to deal with this challenge, in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 15
particular, the turnaround strategy for whether it speaks to
potentially reopening some of these offices, especially in the
rural spaces for people to continue to access the services?
Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Hon
Deputy Speaker, I must indicate that the Sapo offices that are
closed are the offices that are not owned by Sapo but where
Sapo has rented from retail partners and, therefore, our
strategy and approach is that, Sapo must go back to its own
facilities. We are working between Sapo and Postbank to
refurbish the postal services that are in our communities that
are owned by Sapo. That they do not have to pay rent on but
they have to be upgraded and also the upgrading of the
network.
So that those services that are currently in malls Sapo pays
expensive rates and rentals in, they can go back to where Sapo
is in our rural areas. So we are already working on a plan to
make sure that is the case. We have indicated to the portfolio
committee that as soon as the level of detail of that plan
comes to finality; we are going to share with the portfolio
committee the extent of the reopening of the post offices that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 16
are owned by Sapo and not where they are paying rates to
landlords. Thank you.
Mr M S MALATSI: Deputy Speaker, Minister, noting that there is
now consensus between your department and Treasury over the
funding needs of the turnaround strategy, and given that one
of the key aspects of the turnaround strategy is the proposed
marketing budget of R250 million from 2022 to the 2024-25
financial year. Why do you think it is then justifiable to be
spending or planning to spend almost a quarter of a billion on
marketing while the post office is currently struggling to pay
its basic bills such as rental in some areas and
telecommunications needs in the form of telephones and ICT
equipment? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Hon
Deputy Speaker, I am hoping the members of the DA will not
continue to be disruptive when we are responding. We must
indicate that marketing at Sapo is not an operational cost; it
is part of the services that they need to do. If they are
going to get business, they must get it to market. Like any
other business, marketing costs are a critical issue for them.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 17
It is not automatic that Sapo is going to get the services or
the business that it requires. It must go on intensive
marketing. So for us, marketing is not an overhead. It is part
of the critical operations that Sapo must do to attract the
services that they require in the private sector and also on
the continent, as we play a role of the e-commerce integrator
and hub for the continent of Africa. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Pambo?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I will assist.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay! Go ahead.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, as recently as two days ago, there
were threats by Telkom to cut off services at Sapo for an
unsettled bill of almost R300 million. The entity has a
historical debt of about R4,3 billion as well. The former CEO
of the entity Mark Barnes has been given ample time in the
media about his desire to buy the entity and to turn it
around.
During his tenure as CEO at Sapo, did he entangle Sapo in any
debt commitments that the entity is struggling with today,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 18
perhaps with the intention of collapsing it in order to
advocate for its privatisation?
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Uqedile?
English:
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES:
Deputy Speaker, I must clarify that the Sapo debt to Telkom is
not close to R300 million. It is around R200 million,
R210 million to be specific. And we are working with Sapo on
repaying that amount. And I must indicate the second part of
the question around Mr Mark Barnes. Mr Mark Barnes was given
R3,5 billion, and as I have indicated, Sapo is only looking
for R1,6 billion.
Mr Mark Barnes was given R3,5 million to turn around Sapo. He
did not turn around Sapo and it was rich from him to say he
wants to buy Sapo. If he was serious about turning Sapo
around, we would not be sitting where we are because the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 19
problems of Sapo were coming even from his period. And we have
indicated we are not interested in Mr Mark Barnes’s offer. We
have a plan with the current management and the Sapo board to
reposition Sapo and turn it around, and we are confident that
we will achieve that.
I do not know, sitting here, what entanglements that Mr Mark
Barnes and any other previous CEO would have contracted Sapo
into. We are focused on the repositioning of Sapo and as work
to reposting Sapo, we will pick up whatever has been picked up
and then we will do the necessary reporting to the relevant
authorities. Thank you.
Mrs H DENNER: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, you have mentioned
there are many plans to turn around the SA Post Office and the
modernisation of the SA Post Office is necessary to save and
turn it around in order to provide quality service to
especially rural areas in South Africa. But the post office
facilities and buildings, the basic building blocks of this
service, are in a deplorable state with the SA Post Office
owing millions of utilities to municipalities, to landlords
and buildings falling apart.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 20
And the staff component is also too large. What is your
department's plan to get these debts paid up to get facilities
upgraded and to streamline the staff component of the SA Post
Office before you can even look at modernisation of the post
office because the basics are not in place? Thank you, Deputy
Speaker.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Hon
Deputy Speaker, I must clarify, Sapo does not owe any
municipality utility bills except what is currently due. They
have made sure that they have paid all the municipalities what
has been due. So they do not have debts to municipalities.
They have debts to landlords, and as I indicated earlier, we
are moving out of the properties that are rented. We are going
back to facilities that are owned by Sapo. And we indicated
earlier when I was responding to the question by hon Maneli
that we are finalising a plan on the refurbishment of the Sapo
infrastructure. And I want to give an example, in Soweto’s
Jabulani Mall, Sapo renting in the mall whereas next to the
mall there is a Sapo building. It does not make sense. So we
went back to our own facilities and we are finalising a plan
for the renovations of those facilities.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 21
And we committed we were going to share with the portfolio
committee that gratuity of detail, including the modernisation
of the network infrastructure, to get it upgraded to work. And
part of this is part of the other plans that the department
has around SA Connect and how to use Sapo facilities to drive
SA Connect and community connectivity. Thank you, hon Deputy
Speaker.
Question 220:
Mr M S MALATSI: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Mr M S MALATSI: Can I appeal to the Minister, she is too fast
and we are struggling keep up with her response? And it’s an
injustice to us because we have asked the question. So, we
really want to hear her input. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: But why do it when the horse has bolted?
So to speak.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, because you said we are
interrupting the Minister, we have actual been polite and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 22
waited for the Minister to speak and now we are raising the
issue with you. So, we are actually doing it the right way.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. You are not doing it the right
way, hon member. If you are not hearing, you say we can’t
hear. That’s simple. Nobody will fight with you. Of course, if
you are out of order in any other manner, I will rule you out
of order. But when you are asking to hear – Hold on, Chief
Whip! If you are asking to hear there is no reason why you
shouldn’t say that, it’s a rational request. In future do it
that way and don’t insist on always being right, hon members.
Please man. I’m doing it on behalf of the Presiding Officers.
Do indicate if you can’t hear the Minister. That’s a
reasonable thing.
Mr M S MALATSI: But we gave her a fair chance because she has
other questions. We didn’t want to disrupt that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Listen her! You are making excuses. Let’s
proceed hon members. The next Question will be answered by
the Minister of Finance.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Which question?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 23
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ah, ah, ah, ah! It’s Question 220, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Question 220?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I have got 184, Question 220 is from
hon George that is why I’m asking. Sorry.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, that is where we are hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I said the following in the Budget
Speech. Minister Mantashe and I have agreed that a review of
all aspect of the fuel price is needed ... [Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: Point of order!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s focus on the Minister’s response.
The image and appearance will be dealt with. Please you are
wasting. Time, if that’s what you are talking about.
AN HON MEMBER: No I’m just asking him to switch off the
camera, that would be better.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 24
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, can you focus on
listening asseblief (please). I know the aesthetics and your
artistry is your concern. Please let the Minister proceed. The
man’s induction is not complete. The Minister will get used to
the virtual platform. He will be able to appear on it properly
so don’t worry and don’t make it an issue. Hon Minister,
please proceed.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: .... Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker
for helping me with the induction. I’m staying ... Inaudible.]
... I said the following in the Budget Speech.
Minister Mantashe and I have agreed that a review of all
aspects of the fuel price is needed. Our teams have
already begun to engage on this critical work.
Accordingly, there has been several follow up engagements
between the two Ministers and departments on this matter. Fuel
prices in South Africa are comprise of four main components.
The basic fuel price, retail, wholesale margin, taxes and
levies and storage and distribution costs.
Nearly 70% of the prices regulated by the Department of
Mineral and Energy, DMRE, and the remainder by National
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 25
Treasury. At the time of the budget, I indicated that in order
to provide some relief to households no increases will be made
to the general fuel levy on petrol and diesel for 2022/23.
This relief amounted to R3,5billion for South Africans.
I also announced that there would be no increase in the Road
Accident Fund, RAF levy. The National Treasury has undertaken
to review this levy. The DMRE, can in the immediate indicate
changes to the basic fuel price formula informed by the
department’s review undertaken in 2018. In addition, the DMR
has agreed to the review of regulated margins determined
through regulatory accounting system.
The regulatory accounting system is the collection of systems
and procedures used by the DMRE to determine the petrol
margins for the secondary storage handling, secondary
distribution wholesale, and retail benchmark service station
activities. Thank you, Chairperson.
Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, the fuel
price is too high and causes poverty. Since 2018, the
restructuring of the fuel pricing methodology has been not the
agenda for action ... [Interjections.] ...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 26
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Somebody hasn’t switched off something.
Dr D T GEORGE: ... Thank Deputy Speaker and thank you
Minister. The fuel price is too high and causes poverty ...
[Interjections.] ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please switch off your mic.
Please mute.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon member and try using that
one. The same one.
Dr D T GEORGE: ... the fuel price is too high and causes
poverty. Since 2018, the issue of restructuring of the fuel
pricing methodology has been on the agenda for action without
any progress. Tax and levies on fuel are key elements of
government tax revenue. At approximately 6% of revenue
collected. This tax revenue’s Auditor-General and funds
government spending. If government better manage the tax that
it collected it could manage on lower revenue and lower the
tax on fuel. We pay more on fuel because government mismanages
the tax we pay for the services it doesn’t deliver.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 27
The Minister missed an opportunity to lower tax on fuel in
February. He can immediately reduce the cost of living for
everyone especially struggling households if he acts
decisively. What is the deadline to restructure the pricing
mechanism? By what date can we expect this to happen?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I said, work is being done in this
regard. What is making the decision more urgent is the impact
of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, which is moving the price of
the fuel faster than we have thought. The work that we are
doing is intended to respond to the immediate challenge that
we are facing. I think a decision is going to be announced
fairly soon. Thank you.
Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.
The Minister has just spoken about the Russia inversion of
Ukraine, which is obviously going to lead to high oil prices
and grand prices globally. Which will directly push up the
price of key goods within South Africa’s customer price index
such as fuel and bread.
High commodity prices could also lead to second order
inflation effect such as public transport, - and food prices
will also increase. As the Minister has just said now, what is
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 28
the plan to mitigate these effects of Russia invasion of
Ukraine, in the medium and long term? Specifically, on that.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I can’t reveal the details this
stage, we are in a sensitive discussion with the DMRE.
Clearly, there is an intension on the part of government to
make immediate step in particular for April and May. We have
to mitigate the effects of the price increases. Even as a
temporary measure during those two months. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Thank Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, if one has
regard to the budget review it states that and I quote:
Research on fuel price regulation has found that a
combination of regulatory amendments can reduce the
petrol price by R103,82c per litre.
Clearly, we in the ACDP and many other people here would hope
for a larger reduction following your review, Minister.
The amendments to the international components of the basic
fuel price were proposed by the DMRE in 2018, but were sadly
never implemented. Lastly, it is a matter of great concern to
us as the ACDP that since 2012, taxes and related levies for
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 29
fuel have on average more than doubled as a share of the total
fuel price.
Now we appreciate that this review is taking place. But is the
aspect of the international component of the basic fuel price
which was proposed and which was supported by the DMRE, not
something that can be implemented without much delay to bring
much needed relief to consumers. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Obviously, some of the questions were
phrased before my answers. Because the hon member knows that
it is almost a month ago when I made that statement. And
today, after that statement, I am saying some work is being
done to attend to this challenge particularly even if it is on
a temporary basis for the month of April and May. That means
that work is urgent from a government’s perspective with that
issue.
Parallel to that, if I may answer this question, we are
dealing with two approaches, a long approach which will take
into account the review of 2018, and make sure that over a
long term horizon, the price of fuel is made competitive.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 30
There is a short term intervention which must say, how do we
cushion the immediate shock. So, those are two components that
we are talking about and we are going to announce one of those
components in the next few weeks. Thank you.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Hon
Minister, in addition to restructuring the fuel pricing
methodology, should we not also consider a more comprehensive
approach in trying to cushion members of the public especially
the poor from the negative effects of the fuel price increase,
by looking at or even considering a raft of other measures
which would include for instance, reducing the value added
tax, VAT, back to the original 14% instead of the 15%. Which
as you know, is regressive and if you were to cut it, it would
provide more protection to the poor.
So, I am saying, in addition to this, should we not consider a
more comprehensive raft of measures that would help to
mitigate the effects of the price increase or energy increase
in general on the South African economy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, when you construct a
budget there is a whole range of measures you take to cushion
the effects of the poor. Let me just say if we had to follow
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 31
hon Kwankwa’s suggestion, a 1% reduction on VAT would amount
approximately to about R30 billion, just roughly.
That would immediately wipe off the entire R350 we are
providing for the unemployed. So, we must be careful when we
make these judgements whether the impact that we likely to
have on the already made commitments. So, we are doing that
balancing act, as I am saying trying to balance act without
looking, - We are saying how are we going to make sure that
that balancing act is effective in a long term and short term.
Thank you.
Question 194:
IsiXhosa:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Musani ukwenza uqashiqashi, ayikho lento
niyithethayo. Musani ukwenza uqashiqashi. [Kwahlekwa.]
Mphathiswa ohloniphekileyo, khawuphendule abantu balindile.
English:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Oh I was not aware I am on mute! I am
sorry!
[Laughter.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 32
With the situation still developing ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hallo!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question that you must respond to is
Question 194, asked by the hon Steve Swart!
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me just check
what that question says: It says, firstly, what does the
National Treasury envisioned the impact of Russia’s invasion
of Ukraine would be on the economic growth? Is that the
question?
I am trying to answer that question, by saying: With the
situation still developing, and so much uncertainty, at this
stage, it is relatively difficult to quantify the potential
impact with precision and confidence.
However, South Africa’s trade intensity between Russia and
Ukraine on aggregate is very small. It is less than 1% of
South Africa’s total export of goods and imports and therefore
is minimal. A similar number is reflected on import on goods
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 33
from both these countries. However, within certain industries,
trade exposure is most significant such as exports of citrus,
apples, pears products.
There is also another question that what is difficult is going
to be with that more challenging would be an indirect impact
via the financial flows in deferent countries via the impact
as I have said on inflation. There is a positive impact via
our commodity export.
So, at this stage we cannot predict with precession. Thank
you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr S N SWART: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, arising
from your response, the Budget Review makes it clear that
elevated risks to the fiscal outlook include a global or
domestic economic slowdown.
Now, my question refereed to global and domestic and that
could result in lower revenue and greater course for fiscus
support in South Africa. In fact, the review state that and I
quote:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 34
There are significant risks to the global and
domestic outlook over the medium-term and that was
before the Russian invasion.
Now according to your response it seems this risks as you
correctly pointed out they are still materialising, but it
does give an indication that the fiscal risk set out in the
Budget Review and I quote:
Global growth could slow more rapidly if the supply chain
bottlenecks persist leading to sustained price pressures
and rising inflationary expectations.
Now this is what we are seeing globally. We are seeing as well
in South Africa that consumers are facing shock increases in
consumer inflation, driven by rapidly escalating food and fuel
costs arising from the disrupted global supply chains. The
electricity price is set to rise. The Reserve Bank expected to
increase the interest rates hikes and this will place further
pressure on many South African households already struggling
to make it month-to-month and with already constrained
finances.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 35
However, Minister, I would like to focus on the expected
commodity boom which resulted in additional review of
R182 billion being collected on the present financial year and
which is expected to continue in the short-term again
resulting in additional review.
Can the hon Minister give us an indication – and yes it could
be very early stages yet, but could temporary relief be given
to taxpayers or could there even be as a temporary suspension
of the part of a fuel taxes and levies referred to in your
earlier question, given that the revenue projection 2022-23 is
R71 billion higher than last October’s projections and that is
set to increase?
So, we are looking for a possible relief, but obviously it is
still early stages to consider that. Thank you, Deputy
Speaker.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I have indicated to the hon member in
answering the previous question that the issue of cushioning
the impact, particularly of the fuel price, is a matter which
is given urgent attention in government. Therefore, we will
make the necessary announcement soon. For it is our intension
that such mitigation measures must focus on April and May. I
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 36
did indicate that to the hon member that that is what we are
working on. The announcement is going to be made soon. Thank
you.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is Radebe here, I will
take the question on behalf of the hon Abrahams.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Minister, what measures are put in place by
government to make sure that the South African economy becomes
a lower cost-economy with an improved standard of living for
our people as well as the lower cost of doing business so that
more jobs can be created for millions of unemployed South
Africans? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I think the hon member is aware that
on a long-term basis government has made the decision to focus
on what is called the reconstruction and recovery plan whose
elements are to deal with the cost on the South African
economy in particular around the reducing of the costs of
doing business, intervening in the network industries to make
sure that there is competition in those sectors and therefore
reduced price. All those issues are contained in the economic
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 37
recovery and reconstruction plan. Thank you, hon Deputy
Speaker.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Is the impact of Russia’s special military
organisation’s to stop North Atlantic Treaty Organisations,
Nato’s, expectation and not the invasion of Ukraine? The
response by West especially the self-serving sanctions have
once again proved that the nations sovereignty is protected,
when the state has the capacity to lead governments and the
private sector and not when the economy is entirely in the
hands of the private sector. It is the private sector that it
takes everything.
How are efforts to privatise ports, railways, water and
sanitation strategic sector such as telecommunications going
to assist in making sure that South Africa can be able to take
decisions in the future that are in the interest of its
wellbeing like Russia is doing today without fear of sanctions
or threats over debt crises, Minister. Thank you, Deputy
Speaker.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: This government has made no
intentions or announcement to privatise ports and rail. What
this government has said, is that to increase capacity and to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 38
introduce capacity in those sectors. We will allow private
sector participation. That is what this government has done.
Therefore, by taking port authority which is the landlord
outside the Transnet stakeholder is to create an environment
which is competitive rather than a privatisation. The same
thing is applying in rail to introduce competition, than
privatisation. That is the strategic trust that this
government has taken. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Minister, in your response to this
question you admitted that trade between South Africa and
Russia is very miniscule. You even cited I think 1%. Given the
fact that your government has seemed to have adopted a very
ambivalent position on that war in Ukraine, in fact in the
majority of instances you either sit on the fence or favour
Russia.
Is it not logical then for you to follow China’s example since
you see nothing wrong with that conflict, to upscale trade
with Russia as a way of mitigating the impact of this?
I want to hear your clear position. For China that because
they sit on the fence on one instance, on the other instance
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 39
they side with the people of Russia, like yourselves. Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: First and foremost, we do not have an
ambivalent position and we do not favour Russia. We have made
our position quite clear that we do not support any war. We
are a peace loving nation. Our support is the support for
peace and a negotiated settlement in Russia. That is our
position between Russia and Ukraine.
The trade relations are not a matter that was created by a
decree. Trade relations evolve out of the understanding out of
the market forces at play between the two countries. That
relationship over the years, has developed not by decree from
government.
For instance, a number of these products that are being
supplied to Russia by our citrus farmers were not through a
decree by government. It was through an understanding by our
private sector and an understanding of that market and managed
to supply them with citrus.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 40
So, it is not a decree by government. There is no way you can
say the South African government has a decree that therefore
as from today we trade more with Russia.
The second point is that there is an international effort to
isolate Russia. Whatever our position on the war on Ukraine
and Russia, we as a nation we have to say what is on the
interest of the South African nation. As a nation, we have to
selfishly guard our own interests.
All those factors were taken into account as we observe the
developments in this war. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Question 192:
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Sinjani isimo sezulu, sesingcono, la,
ngaphakathi?
English:
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: At least the conditions
of work are starting to come alright. Thank you, Deputy
Chairperson and the members, the hon Shaik Imam, the focus of
the inspectorate is to enforce compliance with all the
employment laws that are regulated by the Department of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 41
Employment and Labour in all work places that are inspected
regardless of who owns them. Non-compliance is not racialised,
as a result the Dell doesn’t have racial breakdowns in their
reporting. So, the issue of dealing with employment of
undocumented workers is not just within the jurisdiction of
Dell. When we come across these irregularities, we pass it to
the Home Affairs. In many instances, we conduct those together
with Home Affairs and the police. They are able to take
immediate action where it is necessary and there has never
been a need to arrest or charge departmental officials for
failing to ensure compliance of the labour laws on the racial
basis. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, I
think you are out of touch with the reality. I think you are
aware of political parties that also in the hospitality
industry went to restaurant. The question I want to ask: Will
you be able to consider your Labour Department inspectors and
- I’ll give you a good example is eThekwini in Durban to show
you the register of all the businesses that they are supposed
to be going and visiting regularly, - which they do and how
many of these businesses have they found in violation of the
labour laws in this country? When I am saying this, I am
saying specifically eThekwini in Durban. This happened all
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 42
over the country, I’m talking about eThekwini. Remember there
is a register when they leave where they go, which businesses
the go and visit they do go there, they go back, of cause and
the question is why do they go back without intervening
because people in the country and foreigners are earning R60 a
day which is R300 a week and yet and yet we have a minimum of
R4000 in the country and very little or nothing is happening
about it so your response, I’m not satisfied Minister because
it is not answering to the question that I have actually
asking you. Are you now going to be willing to look into this
matter yourself to ensure that there is compliance?
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: We are definitely
looking into this matter, but not at a racialised basis, as
you have asked the question. Remember that in this country, we
have approximately 4,1 million businesses and as a department,
we set our own annual targets visiting those employment places
in order to assess what is going on there. This also takes
into consideration what we would call the resources that are
at our disposal and even what we call regional spread. So, we
do it all over the country and when we are not satisfied we go
back and visit, but what we do not want is generalised
information. If there are specific areas of concern, you can
write to us and then, we will go immediately to those areas if
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 43
there are serious violations. But, we do every day with our
inspectors. Thank you.
Mr M NONTSELE: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, and hon
Minister, I am not sure of the ratio of the inspector is to
business establishment. Perhaps, you may remind me of that.
But what I am sure about is that one of the hindrances of
bettering that ratio, is financial constraints. Now Minister,
don’t you think that taking the route of public employment
programmes by introducing what I may term labour inspection
aids or assistance will go a long way to mitigating some of
the challenges in the inspection and enforcement of labour
laws? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, hon Deputy
Speaker, the Dell is a signatory to the International Labour
Organisation, ILO, in terms of the guidelines which are
provided by the ILO to member states with regards to the ratio
of inspector to employees and I can state the following: One
inspector per 10 000 employees in the industrial markets and
one inspector per 20 000 employees in the in the transitional
economies, similar to us as South Africa and one inspector per
40 000 employees in less developed countries. So, that
benchmarking of the ratio of inspectorate should be done per
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 44
the number of employees not employers, because of the varying
number of employees that can be employed by a single employer.
Currently there are around 14,1 million people that are
employed as in November 2021 in terms of the quarterly labour
survey. The department has 1 951 inspectors. This is against a
total of 14,3 million I’m talking about, which provides a
ratio of one inspector to 7 330. Of cause, this is in line
with the industrial countries. Dell is always looking at
various means to beef up the capacity where viable. Currently,
we are looking into increasing our capacity to strengthen the
enforcement of some of our employment laws such as the
Compensation of Occupational and Injuries and Disease Act and
the Employment Equity Act. Thank you.
Dr M J CARDO: Thank you, Deputy speaker. Minister, we know
that one of the employers implicated in this question is
Huawei and that the Department of Employment and Labour found
Huawei guilty of non-compliance with employment equity
legislation. We also know that the department reached an out-
of-court settlement with Huawei earlier this month. Now
leaving aside the madness of various aspects of employment
equity provisions and the under-capacitation of the labour
inspectorate, is it true that the department took a very long
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 45
time to finalise this matter and challenge Huawei because of
political considerations and sensitivities in that, unlike
other employers, Huawei received preferential treatment in the
out-of-court settlement?
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, Deputy
Speaker. I’m not sure what hon Cardo is making reference to
because it’s for the first time that we are taking head on a
big company. It’s for the first time that it has happened in
South Africa and our approach has always been not punitive,
but corrective. Once people then do not listen the first time,
definitely we go for punitive measures. Remember that they had
gone to the extent of going to court, like many of the other
employers do in this particular country, where they run into
court. And once they see that in court it’s hot, they would
request for a settlement and the settlement we have reached
with Huawei we are satisfied that it’s taking us forward. They
have agreed in that technical area to train a number of young
people from the disadvantaged areas of this particular
country. I’m not sure about this selective approach. All I can
say is, for the first time, we have taken head on a very big
company like Huawei. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 46
Ms C N MKHONTO: Thanks Deputy, Speaker, Minister, the
exploitation of both South African and non-South African by
industry is reaching crisis levels. In the Western Cape, most
recently, there was a fight between Lesotho and Zimbabwean
nationals on who is entitled to be employed more on these
farms. Why has your department not paid special attention to
the exploitation of black workers, particularly on the farms
of the Western Cape? Thank you, Speaker.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: We are paying attention
to the farm workers, the most exploited all over the country
not just in the Western Cape and we know that they are working
under the most difficult conditions. Even in our inspections,
we always go to farms where sometimes we are confronted by
very arrogant farmers, who do not want to open their farms and
we are forced to call the police in order to have access to
that. We are dealing with those issues.
In relation to the clashes which we have just seen between
Basotho and the Zimbabweans, the second day there was that
conflict. Our department was there to try and first mediate
those issue, but part of the problem is what we are addressing
the proposed National Labour Migration Policy. The issue of
putting in the undocumented people into this particular
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 47
country, but when there is such violence, such clash, first
things first, is to mediate that there is no violence. there’s
peace then other issues follow like we have said we are
investigating how those employers and I think time has come
that we put the ball in the court of their employers who
deliberately want to exploit this cheap labour. In fact, we
need to come up with harsh punitive measures against the
employers who are violating the law. Thank you.
Question 182:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ministers, hon Malatsi requests that
you slow down your pace of responding so that he hears you
better.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES:
Deputy Speaker, unfortunately members will have to bear with
me. In terms of my own biology, my processing speed is very
fast. So, I can’t slow down when I speak. This is the pace
that I speak, its medically tested. If you want, we can get a
... [Inaudible.] ... test. I will try but it’s the processing
speed of the brain that determines the pace of how I speak.
When I joined the department there was no social compact in
place. However, we are working with both the industry, key
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 48
role players including traditional leadership to create a
social compact towards digital inclusivity or to breach the
digital device towards us making the digital economic a
dominant economy in South Africa. In countries that are
succeeding in the implementation of digital economy, the small
and medium companies or what is known as start-ups in the ICT
sector, has been key players.
On our part, for the implementation of the Broadcast Digital
Migration Project, we have 886 installer companies that have
been contracted, which is an increase from 396 as of
31 January 2022. This capacity continues to be ramped up with
the project implementation. The increase of installer
companies also translates to an increase of a number of jobs
that are created through the project. In addition, through the
increase in the number of TV channels we are envisaging a boom
of the creative industry for more artists, producers and
others in the creative industry sector having more platforms
to generate income and create their own jobs.
On another programme that the department has developed is to
ensure that the country has 80% internet access in the next
three years through the SA Connect and will create more
opportunities for small and medium enterprises to create jobs
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 49
and also to have opportunities. This project is estimated to
provide employment opportunities of more than 2696 people made
out of skilled professionals and semi-skilled labour force.
The estimated number of Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises,
SMMEs opportunities required for the programme are 75
companies for core network building access network service
providers and internet service providers or what is known as
mobile virtual network operators. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms N J KUBHEKA: House Chair, it’s a follow up question. Thank
you very much Minister for the response. I think you have
managed to cover also what I was going to ask and say; please
elaborate on your initiatives to ensure that youth is skilled
and empowered to start their own business and tap into the
opportunities that exists and those that will be provided
through Broadcast Digital Migration Project such as the
creation of 102 TV stations, as you have mentioned, hon
Minister. Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: I
could add on the response that I have already provided.
Through the Broadcast Digital Migration Project, we had to
register indigent household to get government support. To date
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 50
we have registered 1,4 million indigent households for that
support. But what we have learned in the process – because the
process was manual – we are going to employ data capturers to
transfer that information that is in the forms that are in SA
Post Office, SAPO, to the system of Subsidised Set-Top Boxes,
STB Registration.
We are estimating that system will be able to contract more
than 3000 data capturers immediately. They are not just going
to translate that information into an electronic version of
information, but we want to create a single view of an
indigent which will be useful for municipalities on their
system of the indigent register because we are envisaging a
future or a tomorrow that municipalities do not have to create
annual indigent registers but they can update their indigent
register. This is part of our movement towards the digital
economy to allow government to have a single view of a citizen
and give services in an integrated manner, both from national,
provincial and local government level as part of District
Development Model. Thank you, House Chair.
Ms T BODLANI: Chairperson, in light of the fact that the two
challenges facing South Africa today are low economic growth
and rising unemployment; what guarantees can the Minister give
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 51
this House that the jobs created through the social impact
programme in her department will not be manipulated like we
have seen in the past, like the Expanded Public Works
Programme, EPWP, as well as the Personal Protective Equipment,
PPE, scandals that the country faces and that they were only
earmarked for card carrying members of the ruling party? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: House
Chair, I do not know what the member is talking about the
manipulation of any information, including on EPWP. The EPWP
statistics are those employed and paid through the persal
system of government so they are traceable. But what we are
doing as a department - not only for ourselves - the system
that we are talking about, we want to give traceability of
every person employed in the project, not only in the
Broadcast Digital Migration Project or data capturers, but
also in other government projects because we want to use
biometrics to make sure that a person cannot be Khumbudzo
Ntshavheni twice, but there is only one Khumbudzo Ntshavheni
with a particular ID number. Except my brother’s daughter who
is named after me who also have different biometrics profile.
Thank you, House Chair.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 52
Ms T BODLANI: Chairperson, for the record, ...
Setswana:
... ga ke a mo utlwa Tona.
Ms P MADOKWE: Chairperson, digital technology was supposed to
provide more options, lower costs and possibly free television
without the need for a new television set for South Africans.
Over the last 10 years South Africa has failed to ensure that
this transition from analogue to digital takes place. We have
observed how slowly your department has progressed in making
this transition. What effect would this transition have on
citizens who haven’t changed their television sets to digital?
And, will your department ensure small operators and
unemployed youth are involved in ensuring this transition?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: House
Chair, obviously, myself and the hon Madokwe are living in
different countries. We have gazetted a date of the
31 March 2022 as the analogue switch off date, which means we
are going digital from the 1 April 2022 unless the court case
determines differently. But we are confident that the court
will side with us because we have done everything in our
power.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 53
Hon Madokwe raises a question of saying what about households
who have not applied or who do not qualify, and I am
rephrasing her question to give clarity because it’s an
important question. What about people who do not qualify for
government subsidy and cannot afford to buy new television
sets? What technology has done with the ordinary antenna,
which is called aerial in townships and rural areas, they can,
using their own TVs because we have ensured 84% Digital
Terrestrial Television, DTT coverage of the country and 16%
satellite coverage. With their own current television, with
their old antennas, they can root within 15km radius of the
tower. They can reset their television to watch digital TV.
I have responded to the question of small players
participating, when I responded to the earlier question by hon
Kubheka in terms of the numbers of installers we are using.
But also the participation of the creative industries when we
increase the number of TV channels that are available. And,
the Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition - for those
who will be replacing their TVs because the TV is not about
the number of years that you keep, the TV blows up, the TV
loses guarantee, they lose all those things and have to be
replaced - the Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition is
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 54
working on prohibiting the importation of analogue televisions
in South Africa. Thank you, House Chair.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, bringing the device digital
requires that we start to integrate ICT to our communities to
... [Inaudible.] ... with level small operators and SMMEs are
the closest contact to local communities. I would like to know
whether the department has plans over the next financial year
to provide network access to rural communities and how will
schools, teachers and learners benefit from the access. If
not, why? If so, please provide an outline of your plans as a
department. Thanks.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: House
Chair, thank you for that question. We have indicated and the
President announced that we are going to roll out SA Connect
and we revised the model of SA Connect from connecting only
government institutions but also to include connecting
communities. We have indicated that over the next three years
we are going to connect 44 000 government institutions. That
means connecting schools, public clinics and hospitals,
traditional authority offices who are located in communities,
libraries and Thusong service centres that are in communities.
Over and above that we are going to connect over 33 000
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 55
community Wi-Fi hotspots in communities across the country to
make sure that communities can have access to that.
We have indicated now when I was responding to the question of
hon Kubheka that, we are going to use the local SMMEs who are
network providers themselves, who are mobile virtual network
operators and who are internet service providers. That is what
we are going to use in those areas. Even the installers that
we are using now, some of them are going to be migrated into
that programme because some of this work include cabling and
installation of fibre technology and that’s what is going to
happen.
The necessary details, members will find in the corporate plan
our entities SENTECH, Broadband Infraco, BBI and State
Information Technology Agency, SITA. Also, we are going to
announce together with Independent Communications Authority of
South Africa, ICASA on the commitment that telcos are going to
rollout as part of the social obligations of the spectrum
rollout. We guarantee that we are going to announce the annual
implementation plan in the next 36 months. So, those are the
necessary details. Thank you.
Question 212:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 56
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, hon House Chair, the level of details of how the
department is going to ensure financial sustainability of the
SA Post Office are contained in the plans the SA Post Office
of Tomorrow’ strategy and the implementation plan, which was
shared with the portfolio committee whilst also protecting the
commercially sensitive information of the SA Post Office go to
market strategy.
The SA Post Office has repackaged its service offerings and
they will soon be announcing when they are ready to launch.
These areas include the SA Post Office as a business digital
hub in rural areas and townships; the SA Post Office as a
trust centre in the age of biometrics; the SA Post Office as
an e-commerce hub and integrated ... [Inaudible.] ... for
South Africa and the continent; and the SA Post Office as a
government service centre, in particular, for rural areas and
townships.
I have committed to the portfolio committee on keeping a
closed eye on the implementation of the strategy, which will
be included in the corporate strategy of the SA Post Office.
We will continuously give an update to Cabinet and the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 57
committee on key milestones of the SA Post Office of Tomorrow’
strategy and its implementation plan. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MALATSI: Thank you, House Chair, Minister ...
Tshiven?a:
... zwino ndo vha pfa zwavhu?i ...
English:
... but let’s start from the beginning. There is no doubt that
the SA Post Office is in financial distress if you look at its
liabilities, it owes Postbank R2,5 billion, it owes Telkom
R269 million, and it owes Sars R624 million. I know Minister
that the government you serve in has ideological fidelity
towards state ownership. Is it reasonable to insist on this
persistence when the SA Post Office has been unprofitable for
10 years, that even with getting the funding that you need, it
will not be profitable for the first two years? What are your
reasons for opposing pursuing the route that the government
took with Telkom, for instance, by making the space for
partial private ownership in order to revive this entity to
fulfil its basic mandate and reduce the load that it
increasingly has become dependent on bailouts for survival?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 58
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, hon House Chair, I think we need to go back to Ntate
Malatsi and remind him that even with the partial
privatisation of Telkom, it still took Telkom 10 years to
become financially sustainable. We are saying, as we are
today, the SA Post Office is in a position that you can say
you will successfully - unless you give it away for a rand –
get a private stake in there, because anybody else who is
coming up and asking for a private stake at the SA Post
Office, they were the ones who contributed to the crippling of
the SA Post Office.
What we are saying is that the SA Post Office is a critical
government service centre in rural areas where Mr Malatsi does
not reside, where our people must continuously go to for
services. As of now, the SA Post Office has to be turned
around and repositioned. We have not claimed that the
reposition of the SA Post Office is going to be easy. We have
indicated that we are going to work with the SA Post Office
and that’s why - hon Malatsi – we are indicating that the
turnaround plan is clear as to when we will start to achieve
financial sustainability because we have put a concrete plan.
We want to be given an opportunity to deliver that which we
have said we will deliver with the SA Post Office. We are
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 59
confident in the leadership. We are confident not only with
the plans but the work that the SA Post Office is undertaking
with the private sector because we are talking about a
partnership with the private sector. It doesn’t mean we need
to privatise the SA Post Office. We can partner with the
private sector to add value to the SA Post Office and to grow
it. The SA Post Office is no longer going to be seen as
competition to private competitors but as a critical partner
to the delivery of their own services whilst generating its
own revenue and income for its financial sustainability. Thank
you, hon House Chair.
Ms N J KUBHEKA: Thank you, House Chair, hon Minister, as you
might be aware that there have been some individuals such as
its former chief executive, Mark Barnes, who has publicly
expressed his interest to invest in the SA Post Office through
some form of public-private partnership. Is this something
that government will be considering at all? If not, why not?
If yes, what are the relevant details? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, House Chair, for starters, Mr Mark Barnes must first come
and explain why he could not turn around the SA Post Office
with the R3,5 billion injection or bailout funds that he was
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 60
given by National Treasury without any conditions before we
consider him eligible for a partnership, because where I am
sitting, and given the period that Mr Mark Barnes was the
chief executive officer, CEO, of the SA Post Office, I start
to wonder whether he did not cripple the SA Post Office so
that he could later come back and want to buy it. He wants 51%
of the SA Post Office in what we call in business “throwing
the javelin”. I am not comfortable talking about Mr Mark
Barnes until we understand the details of his period of tenure
and what he did with the bailout.
We have engaged with the unions at the SA Post Office and they
have indicated that the money was not used for its intended
purposes with regard to the bailout but we don’t want to go
into those details. Like I have indicated, explaining to hon
Malatsi that the SA Post Office is currently working on
partnerships with private players, and not as equity partners,
but as service partners to deliver not only its mandate but to
also help those players to participate whilst generating
revenue because the SA Post Office cannot be used to become a
horse to deliver people to the river whilst it cannot drink
the water itself. The SA Post Office is going to generate
revenue from the partnership with private players and also
with other international players in the space. They have
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 61
already started working on those details and we will share
with the portfolio committee and Cabinet when the time is
right. Thank you.
Ms P MADOKWE: I will take the question, Chair. Minister, the
Post Office has asked for about R9 billion bailout from the
National Treasury in order to stay afloat. What scenarios have
you developed to keep the entity afloat should the National
Treasury refuse to bail you out? If they do bail you out,
please outline the specific actions you will be undertaking to
ensure that the entity never finds itself in financial
distress again? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, hon House Chair, I am going to reiterate, the SA Post
Office has not requested for requested the R9 billion from
National Treasury. I am the one who signed the letter
requesting R1,6 billion from National Treasury that is
required by the SA Post Office over the Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period. There is no R9 billion
that was requested by the SA Post Office. You are maybe
referring to R9 billion that National Treasury has bailed out
the SA Post Office including the period under Mr Mark Barnes.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 62
Where we are, we have indicated - and the EFF was represented
in the portfolio committee – the SA Post Office of Tomorrow’
strategy and the implementation plan, which we said we are
going to continuously update the portfolio committee on key
milestones. I have earlier referred to some of the areas that
the turnaround strategy or the SA Post Office Tomorrow’
strategy covers without disclosing the commercially sensitive
information. Thank you.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair, hon Minister, you
have responded to part of the question that I am going to ask.
As we all know, the SA Post Office is in dire need of the real
leadership that can find a turnaround strategy whilst adapting
it to a current market development. I would like to know that
since the SA Post Office is in dept in all of its rental
agreements, how will this department implement the recent
adopted financial strategy and making sure that the SA Post
Office is also able to sustain itself going forward? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES: Thank
you, hon House Chair, as I have indicated earlier, the SA Post
Office of Tomorrow’ strategy was developed not by the Ministry
but by the board of the SA Post Office, the management of the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 63
SA Post Office, and also with the input of the Department of
Communications and Digital Technologies.
I must indicate that when I joined the department, I was told
that the SA Post Office was going to be on day zero on 30th
September, and that day zero kept on shifting and today, the
SA Post Office is not on day zero because the management and
the board of the SA Post Office have been doing their best
within their abilities to keep the SA Post Office afloat with
the support of the department.
We continue to work with them including the implementation of
these services that we are contracting the SA Post Office to
render on behalf government because they have demonstrated in
terms of the plans that they are submitting to us that they
can have the capacity to implement. We have engaged with
labour, directly with representatives of the dominant unions
within the SA Post Office and management has also engaged with
labour. We have the full support of the stakeholders, both
employees of the SA Post Office who are unionised and the
nonunionised to make sure that their implementation of their
strategy is successful. For that reason, we have agreed with
the board of the SA Post Office that their strategy is going
to be converted into the corporate plan of the SA Post Office
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 64
from 2022-23 financial year for the outer period of three
years. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Question 223:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chair, I thought Question 223 is to
the Minister of Finance.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What I have here is
Question 223 ... let me have a look at this. It is the hon ...
yes, it says N F Shivambu to ask the Minister of Finance. What
I have here in front of me is different. Okay, hon Minister of
Finance, you are welcome.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: South Africa currently has a number
of state banks, including the Development Bank of Southern
Africa, the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, Land Bank
and many other development finance institutions. The
Department of Communications and Digital Technologies is also
in the process of finalising legislative amendment to the
South African Post Bank Act so that the Post Bank can be in a
position to finalise its application for a banking license
from the Prudential Authority of the South African Reserve
Bank.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 65
The key question to consider with regard to state owned banks
is whether current state banks are performing as expected to
meet the mandates expected of them. It is also important to
determine what market failure and gaps are existing state
banks seeking to address, and what remaining gaps or problems
we are trying to solve before coming up with solutions. We
also need to consider the rationalisation and consolidation of
some existing state finance institutions where overlapping
mandates exist.
In identifying the market failure and gaps to be addressed, it
is necessary to establish the structure, funding model,
feasibility and ultimate sustainability of any state bank.
Each state bank needs to determine its own business model, and
whether it can also service a market that may not be adequate
to be serviced by existing banks. This means that there needs
to be a clear balance between providing — that is market
failure — and pricing in of risk to ensure sustainability.
It is even more important to do so in the current climate
where we face such significant fiscal challenges outlined in
the 2022 Budget Speech. It is imperative that no state bank
puts their burden on the fiscus and that all state banks must
be able to generate sufficient own revenue to fund their
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 66
operations. The country does not have the funds to inject
equity into any state bank, even as we face challenges to some
existing state banks.
The country also needs to learn the lessons from the recent
bank failures in South Africa. All banks need to be managed
prudently at all stages with the highest regard for sound
corporate governance practices and ethical conduct.
Banking is a risky and complicated business based on trust
with no guarantee of success. That is why they are regulated
so intrusively and intensively. If any bank lends recklessly
or is managed poorly and fraudulently by its board and
management, such bank will fail and face the prospect of
closure as was the case with the African Bank in 2014 and VBS
in 2014.
In conclusion, as noted in above, the process going forward is
to determine whether current state banks are performing as
expected to meet the mandates expected of them, and whether
government would need to consider the rationalisation and
consolidation of some existing state finance institutions
where overlapping mandates exist. Thank you, Chair.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 67
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon House Chair, I will take it on behalf
of hon Shivambu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Go ahead, hon
Natasha.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much. Minister, I think your
government doesn’t have the appetite or the political will to
truly invest on a state-owned bank. For years now you have
been sitting on research; research this and research that. So,
I just think that there is no political will from the
government’s side.
On 1 June 2021 the SA Reserve Bank announced that it will
start a process to dispose of 50% shareholding and African
Bank holdings limited given the conflict of, as the regulator,
the significant shareholder and the lender of the last report.
Yesterday, sir, the Reserve Bank just announced that none of
the parties that have shown interest were suitable, and now
they want to follow the initial public offering route.
Shouldn’t African Bank holdings limited form the basis of
creation of a state bank and stop this thing of research this
and that? Give us a concrete answer why your government is
just gasping from pillar to post and not starting a state
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 68
bank. Not this research. It has been years of this government,
finance Minister in and out, telling us research this and
that. Give us a concreate answer. What is the real reason you
are not starting a state-owned bank? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Maybe the hon member did not listen
carefully. I said that we do have existing state banks. They
perform different mandates and different functions. For
instance, the Post Bank is a deposit taking bank and other
banks are lending which are functions of what a bank would do.
We then made a second point that says that we will thus
rationalise and consolidate where overlap is necessary.
Thirdly, if we are going to put money into the African Bank
should we not close the Post bank? So, those are the choices
this government must make. Our view is that we have the banks
and the institutions which are necessary to perform all these
functions.
In so far as the Post Bank is concerned, we are putting money
into it. All we need is to finalise legislative changes to the
Post Bank Act, whereas, if they want us to go to a private
bank, we will have to raise money and I have said there is no
money for that, but we have banks.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 69
Ms N G ADOONS: House Chair, I will be taking the supplementary
question. Thank you, Minister, for the response. Given that
the creation of a state bank is a resolution that comes from
the 52nd Conference of the ANC that was held in 2007, what
have been the stumbling blocks that have delayed its
implementation that your department has been seeking to
resolve? How will the mandate of a state bank be different to
those of the existing privately owned banks? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I said we have a number of banks
which provide lending into the market. A number of them. Most
of them do not have deposit taking mandates and only the Post
Bank has that. There is legislation, therefore, in Parliament
to amend the Post Bank Act to allow the Post Bank to be able
to apply and extend its scope. It is basically a legislative
arrangement. Once we finish that legislation, the Post Bank
will exist as a state bank and a deposit taking institution
and it will co-operate and work with existing different
finance institutions to broaden the lending base of the state.
I do not think that there is much a problem in this
arrangement. Once the legislation is through, which is
amending the Post Bank Act, we will be rolling.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 70
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, to the Minister, I think
the point we are trying to make is that there is a need for a
fully-fledged state bank, like the big four or five that you
have, providing all the facilities that the big four or five
banks offer. Now, you cannot deny this, Minister, that there
is a monopoly by the financial institutions in this country.
You saw the collusion and how they closed the bank accounts of
the Sekunjalo Group. Of course, the court has now asked them
to reopen the accounts.
What is your department going to do about protecting these
businesses who create hundreds of thousands of jobs in this
country and ensure that a state bank is created so that there
could be more competition and the cost of doing businesses in
terms of getting loans and the interests you pay and the
competition is good for business?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I suspect he is already going into
Question 193 which is his question. I am not going to answer
that; I will answer that there. The main issue here is that if
you want any state institution to get a loan from any
institution, there is a myriad of these institutions. We have
the Land Bank, the Development Bank, IDC, Small Enterprise
Finance Agency, SEFA, National Empowerment Fund, NEF, and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 71
Public Investment Corporation, PIC. The only limitation that
all of these institutions do not have is deposit taking. We
are putting a legislation in Parliament which will allow the
only deposit taking institution to expand its scope to be a
fully-fledged bank, which is the Post Bank.
Now, I do not know why there is resistance and people want to
push us to new things when we want to utilise the existing
things we have and have an obligation to them. The Minister of
Communication and Digital Technologies has already said that
they are putting a request to the National Treasury of
R1,6 billion in order to assist the Post Bank and its
subsidiaries. If we are going to be putting money into the
Post Bank and also put money into creating a new one, I don’t
think we would be using the taxpayer’s money in a more
efficient and effective way. Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
Minister. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Let me make one more point,
Chairperson. The notion that a state bank will not be
regulated like all other banks is misplaced. The state bank
will be regulated and will fall under the same regulations
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 72
that are applicable to all banks. Therefore, any bank or
clients of a state bank will conform with the same regulatory
framework. We must make that clear.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, five years ago the ANC
had a position paper on creating a state bank and adopted the
resolution and that formed part of their manifesto. In fact,
Al Jama-ah contributed to the position because we had an
expert that would assist the state bank to be interest free.
Has the Minister looked at the position paper and the
deliberations at that conference five years ago? And why is
government not implementing a resolution of the governing
party?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The resolution of the governing party
talks about a state bank and we are implementing that
resolution by making the Post Office, and changing legislation
is to giving effect to that resolution to making sure that the
Post Bank becomes a fully-fledged state bank. We are in
keeping with that resolution. Thank you, Chair.
Question 183:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, House Chair. First, the
government cannot force any company to invest in our economy.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 73
The best way to encourage such investments is to create an
attractive climate for investment in our country. Key factor
to facilitate investment include the construction and
maintenance of infrastructure, access to markets, political
and policy certainty, access to skilled labour. Attracting
investment in our economy requires a package of measures that
consist of both tax and nontax that is structural alongside
the rate reduction in corporate income tax.
National Treasury and the Presidency, through Operation
Vulindlela are supporting the implementation of key structural
reforms to promote economic recovery and growth. The envisaged
economic reforms are designed to support rapid and inclusive
growth by reforming network industry to modernise and
transform the economy, lower barriers to make it easier for
business to start growing and compete, create greater levels
of economic inclusion and address high levels of economic
concentration, resulting in high levels of employment as
growth accelerates.
Restructuring the corporate income tax regime is an important
complement to this endeavour and it is aimed at enhancing
equity and efficiency. Research done by the Organisation for
Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, and the Davis Tax
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 74
Committee show that an increase in corporate income tax rate
has the largest negative impact on economic growth compared to
other types of tax increases. Higher corporate income tax
rates reduce the incentives for companies to invest in the
economy. Capital is mobile and many corporates operate on a
global scale which allows them the advantage to choose where
they want to look at their business.
As a result, governments around the world continue to compete
for investment by making their countries an attractive
investment destination. While there has been a global downward
trend in corporate tax rates, South Africa corporate income
tax rate has remained unchanged since 2008, with many of our
trading and investment partners reducing their rates. This has
led to the growing gap in the tax rate differential, reducing
the competiveness of South Africa as an investment
destination, and providing a strong incentive for companies to
shift profits out of South Africa. Lowering the corporate
income tax rate will reduce ... [Inaudible.] ... and create a
more conducive environment for corporates to invest in our
economy.
In addition to reducing the corporate income tax rate by 1
percentage point, the corporate income tax package introduced
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 75
two measures that widen the tax base. One of these measures
include countering tax base erosion and profit shifting by
strengthening the rules that restricts multinational companies
from using excessive interest deduction to minimise taxable
profits in South Africa. While some companies will pay more
corporate income tax as a result of these measures, all
companies in South Africa will benefit from the reduced rate.
In this way, equity between smaller stand-alone companies and
multinational companies with operations in South Africa will
be improved as purely domestic companies do not have global
links, and that enable them to avoid profit shifting. South
Africa has also introduced a number of measures over the past
two decades to try and restrict profit shifting and base
erosion. Besides domestic measures, South Africa is party to
multinational tax processes and agreements that ... [Time
expired.] Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The first
supplementary question will be asked by the hon Qayiso.
Mr X S QAYISO: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister,
thank you very much for responding on the question asked
above. I just want to make a follow-up question. Given what
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 76
some sectors of the society such as the organised working
class have termed an “investment strike” by Corporate SA and
the fact that previous government incentive schemes to
encourage companies that pay high dividends to their wealthy
shareholders to reinvest in the South African economy have
been lees successful. Now, my question is: “Is government
considering measures such wealth tax on the 354 000 wealthiest
individuals which could raise at least R143 billion as argued
by the Southern Centre for Inequality Studies based at Wits
University, if not, why not, if yes, what are the relevant
details?” Thank you very much, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The hon member will know that in the
Budget Speech and Budget Review we have not made any reference
to the wealth tax. We are not necessarily saying that we will
not consider it if conditions permit. As things stand, we do
not know how many are these people and what is the extent of
their wealth. What we have introduces, which was not contained
in the Budget Speech, which you may find in the Budget Review
which is public, is some disclosure requirements which are
going to be required for people wealth above R50 million.
You made reference to 354 000 wealthiest individuals. I don’t
know how many people are candidates for wealth tax if we were
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 77
to consider it. I don’t have the figures. But what we have
started doing is to introduce a disclosure requirement which
will help us to understand what is the extent of wealth, if
any, in this economy.
Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, House Chair. As President Ramaphosa
correctly identified in his state of the nation address, the
business sector is the job creator in our economy, especially
small, medium and micro enterprises. The 1% reduction in the
corporate tax rate is a welcome step in the right direction.
It is hopelessly inadequate. Business, either local or foreign
will not invest in our economy unless it is attractive enough
to unlock the available cash reserves.
We agree with the Minister that an environment conducive to
business needs to be created. Has the Minister considered
involving a more attractive business ecosystem in South Africa
such as tax holidays and tax exemptions for business that
invest in economic enablers, such as infrastructure, energy,
water and education and dismantling tax barriers to domestic
savings outside of pension funds, and removing remaining
exchange controls? Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 78
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: All policy proposals to attract
investment in this economy are on the table. We are prepared
to consider a variety of those policy proposals. For instance,
gaiting government is making proposals for some incentives for
investing in the townships as part of their township economy
strategy. So, what I am trying to say is that all policy
proposals are on the table and are under consideration. I
can’t say no or yes to anyone. It is going to depend on a
number of issues. What impact it will make on the economy, and
what impact it will have on the fiscal framework, and so on.
However, I must add that the investment is a function of a
number of factors as I have said in my first paragraph in
answering this question. It is not only tax holidays alone, a
number of things are critical to infrastructure as part of
that, access to markets is part of that, skilled labour is
part of that. So, as part of promoting investment in this
economy, we are working on a variety of things and
instruments, including removing barriers and red tape as the
President has said. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Who is taking the
third supplementary question from the hon Shivambu?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 79
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: It’s me again, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Go ahead, hon
Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you. Minister, the EFF raised the
issue of aggressive tax avoidance, tax base erosion and profit
shifting in 2014. We made submissions to the Davis Tax
Committee, to the SA Revenue Service, Sars, and we even led
parliament to seriously engage base erosion and profit
shifting. We were hopeful when government took our
recommendations to establish a central agency that would co-
ordinate the work of Sars, the Reserve Bank, the Police, the
Financial Intelligence Centre and Home Affairs as far as the
border control is concerned. But it is clear that there is no
intention to deal with the multinational companies which are
all engaged in some form of aggressive tax avoidance and
illicit financial flows.
Is it not time, Minister, to move way from Sars voluntary
basis, and start prosecuting these companies involved in wrong
doing. We can’t be coming here year in and year out, talking
about this. It is time for action and it is time to prosecute
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 80
all of these multinational companies that are just taking the
ship, and taking a plane with all of our monies. Please act.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, I can say in brief,
as outlined in this presentation. I ran out of time when I was
on base erosion aspect, trying to clarify what actions we are
taking, together with international bodies such as the OECD
and we are party to those agreements. That is broader work
that we are doing in the legislative, I think we will be
coming back to Parliament on the legislative side if the hon
member will be pleased to know that. Lastly, I think that if
any evidence exists and it be submitted to Sars, I would
imagine Sars would move with speed in prosecuting such
companies. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The last
supplementary question is from the hon Buthelezi.
[Interjections.]
Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Can I proceed? [Interjections.] Can I
proceed? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Baba Shenge,
qhubeka [continue].
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 81
Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much. Minister, the
motive for the reduction in the corporate income tax was to
support economic growth and these changes are to be
implemented in a fiscally neutral manner through the
introduction of measures to broaden the tax base. Can the
Minister share details of these planned measures to broaden
the tax base over and above the obvious hope that the lower
tax will encourage additional investment. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Sorry hon House Chairperson, I was on
mute. I said that in addition to reducing the corporate income
tax rate, we are introducing two other measures with the
increased tax base. One of these measures we said include
countering base erosion and profit shifting by strengthening
the rules and restrict multinational companies from using
excessive interest debt reduction to minimise taxable profit.
That is one instrument in that you therefore ... all of these
rules we are broadening the tax base and domestic companies
are not likely to pay more but multinational ones, precisely
because of what we introduced are likely to pay more.
So, all of that has broadened that base and ensure that there
is no tax avoidance. There are instruments which we have put
in place, which the hon member will soon get to know. We will
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 82
outline that in detail in my reply which I am going to furnish
to the member as I have to stop because of time.
Question 184:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House Chair,
strategic stocks are by their nature an insurance that the
country has to take in order to be able to respond to
catastrophic levels of petroleum sector.
In our view the current conflict in Europe and the impact in
the crude oil is likely to lead to such a catastrophe if
conflict doesn’t end soon. That’s why in the discussion with
the Minister of Finance one of the things we did was to give a
disclosure that [Inaudible.] 10 million barrels of oil in
strategic stock. So, whatever interventions are concluded they
will take into account that strategic stock.
The department believes that it is better to have a balance
between crude oil stocks and finished product stocks.
Unfortunately, at this point in time we are sitting with the
strategic stock of crude oil, we don’t have finished products.
And the shift towards refined products is more appropriate
given the change in the operating strategies in many refining
companies.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 83
The planned repurposing of one of the refineries as well as
the two refineries that are still out of commission has
exacerbated the need to move to refined products.
The Strategic Fuel Fund is tasked with investigating workable
modalities that will minimize the need for fiscal involvement
in such a transition to refine products in the short term.
Currently the plan involves using existing crude oil stocks
and exchange some of these into refined petroleum products. In
order to achieve this, the Strategic Fuel Fund will have to
acquire position existing storage terminals to allow for
rotation of refined products.
So, in brief, the strategic fuel stock is actually part of the
envisaged mitigation against high prices of petrol. Thank you,
House Chair.
Mr S LUZIPO: Hon Minister, considering that the duration of
the conflict is likely to have upside risk to the food price
inflation and high public transport cost, further eroding the
disposable incomes of the poor households.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 84
What is the department’s plan in the interim to find a
solution in the rise of oil prices? I thank you very much,
House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House Chair, the
Minister of Finance raised the issue that in our discussion;
we are putting together a plan that is targeting April and
May. The reason for that is that it is anticipated that the
price of petroleum in April will go up by up to R2 and more.
So, the intervention is intended to mitigate the impact of
that increase. And May is the second month and hopefully by
the end of two months there will be direction taken in the
conflict itself; hopefully a solution being found in the
conflict.
What we are avoiding at the same time is to avoid creating an
impression that we can give up a lot of things and derail the
fiscal framework that was announced in Parliament. We don’t
want to do that. We want to intervene, mitigate against the
impact of the high petroleum price. Hopefully when there is
peace, prices will systematically come down. Then we can look
into other staggered interventions; they said strategic petrol
stock is one of that and many other interventions.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 85
But it is a plan that is short term in nature because we don’t
want people to have an issue when there’s that intervention.
As it is a culture in South Africa, you give a short-term
intervention then society demands that it should be permanent
and it can actually cause a lot of conflict in society.
I think the Minister of Finance estimated that if, for
example, we temper with taxes and levies it means R7,5 billion
per month and if we take if for two months it may be
R15 billon. And if it is extended beyond that it will begin to
temper with the fiscal framework as determined and presented
to Parliament. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister, amongst the things you are avoiding
is calling the situation in the Ukraine a war of Russian
aggression, but we’ll leave that aside for the moment.
Minister, this government has known about an impending fuel
crisis since at least 2007. In that year the Moerane
Commission issued a report which recommended, amongst other
things, the creation of a strategic fuel reserve of refined
petroleum products.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 86
Will you enlighten this House as to exactly how many days
cover of refined petroleum products we have if supply was
disrupted?
Why the recommendations of the Moerane Commission have not
been implemented?
And why South Africa has no strategic fuel reserve of refined
fuel products? Thank you, House Chair. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House Chair
[Interjections.] because I’m ... [Inaudible.] ... I’m very
allergic to howling and my mother taught me if you shout at me
you make me stupid; so, I’m avoiding that.
Firstly, it’s quite a good question Mr Mileham, except that
you asked that question at the wrong time when there’s a
crisis facing the country now because of the Russian-Ukrainian
conflict. Now, we are applying our minds to deal with
solutions in respect of the short-term crisis that we are
facing, then the other policy solutions will be attended in
due course.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 87
Secondly, the Moerane Commission report will be looked into
and be followed. But at this point in ... now, wait, wait,
lower your hands, lower your hands ... it will be followed and
looked into if it is still applicable.
What is important now is to deal with the question of sharp
increases in petroleum price because when people go to petrol
stations, that is what they understand, is the price of
petrol.
So, we are working on mitigating implementation formula in the
short-term then we’ll apply our mind to policy. Minister of
Finance talked about looking into the formula of calculating
the petrol price. It’s there, we are looking into it but it’s
a long-term solution, it’s not mitigating the crisis that is
confronting the country today. We are applying our minds to
deal with the crisis confronting the country today then apply
our minds to long-term issues. Thank you, House Chair.
[Applause.]
Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair, our question was not answered.
[Interjections.] My question was: How many days cover of
refined fuel products do we have in South Africa?
[Interjections.] I didn’t ask anything about fuel prices.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 88
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mileham, the
Minister has answered to your question. If you are not happy
with the answer you know what the processes to follow.
Shall we continue? Hon Madokwe, you are next!
Ms P MADOKWE: Minister, shortly after the conflict in Russia
and Ukraine escalated, government scrapped around to respond
to the looming fuel crisis. The reality is South Africa is
still sitting with an elephant in the room, the aftermath
resulting from the sale of the strategic fuel stock, with no
one held accountable to date, rundown facilities, the closure
of refineries which are crucial to the country right now and
we simply increase the price of fuel to the detriment of our
people.
How, in addition to the commitment of the 10 million barrels,
does your department intend to ensure adequate supply of fuel
for South Africans should the conflict take longer than the
projected two or three months? And do these plans include
actions around Project Mthombo?
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House Chair, I
love Mr Mileham because he has a thin skin, he jumps around
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 89
and complain all the time, raised hands, which doesn’t add
value to any discussion of policy. It doesn’t add any value.
You can jump and ... leave the days. [Interjections.]
Firstly, what is important is that strategic fuel has been
recovered, we are having our 10 million barrels of crude oil
back in our control.
Secondly, the fact that at this point in time we don’t have
stock of remind petroleum in the strategic fuel is a different
matter that we’ll look into moving forward.
Strategic stock is not a supply of petroleum; it is an
emergency stock that should be used when there is a crisis and
we are looking into it now because there is a crisis.
So, that’s why we say if we want to intervene effectively
we’ll have to take that strategic stock to identified
refineries to refine it and get it into the market. Thank you,
House Chair.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon House Chair, the cost of South Africa
being without petroleum was calculated in 2010 at being about
R1 billion per day, which is probably the best argument for a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 90
strategic stock reserve only to be released in case of a
disaster declared by the Minister. Now, that’s just a little
bit shaky because this government tends to call things
disasters which don’t seem like disasters for everyone. But
let’s agree that the war by Russia in Ukraine is a disaster to
be dealt with.
Now, the ... [Inaudible.] ... levy on the retail fuel price
and there are growing indicators that green hydrogen can,
within the next few years, become competitive with fossil
fuels and that is the reason why Cabinet approved the hydrogen
society roadmap. However, the whole ... [Inaudible.] ...
programme of the Department of Science and Innovation dealing
with energy and hydrogen has to get along with the budget of
less than R200 million per annum.
We did not benefit the goal of the strategic stock reserve, to
set aside one of those cents per litre to finance a more
aggressive pursuit of hydrogen power [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House Chair, I’m
not sure if I have the authority to declare disasters, doesn’t
fall in my portfolio. [Laughter.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 91
Firstly, we are dealing with a disaster that we are
confronting because the market behaves in a particular way.
When there’s a conflict between Russia and Ukraine it impacts
on the overall market and that market impacts on our situation
and we have a responsibility to deal with that disaster; not
declared by me but as the consequence in the Russia-Ukrainian
conflict. So, to say it is a disaster declared by Minister I
think it’s a misnomer.
Secondly, all the other interventions like your green hydrogen
and many other interventions in the energy space are part of
the policy that is unfolding. That’s why you’ll find out that
there is a green hydrogen project that is underway. For
example, Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and Sasol
are having a massive programme in that regard. Anglo Platinum
is involved in that programme. There are quite a number of
initiatives. But those initiatives are not going to resolve
the crisis we are facing today. We must deal with this crisis
as we unfold our new policy options to deal with our energy
situation as a country. Thank you, House Chair. [Applause.]
Question 185:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Thank you, hon
House Chairperson. The department believes that a burning
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 92
diesel to generate electricity is not sustainable – generally.
We have, as government, invested in gas infrastructure
together with Mozambican government. For example, we are today
jointly 80% shareholder of the Republic of Mozambique Pipeline
Company, Rompco, pipeline from Mozambique to South African. We
have increased our stake in the Rompco pipeline to bring gas
from Mozambique to Mpumalanga and our own shares is 40%,
another 40% is held by Mozambican government. This will enable
any company that wants to bring gas into the country to do so
using existing infrastructure. In addition, the government
through the Central Energy Fund, CEF, has issued a request for
proposal for the gas aggregator which will partner with CEF to
procure gas for the Coega liquefied natural gas, LNG,
terminal. This will ensure that molecules of gas are available
use in Coega area.
SFS has applied for section 79 in terms of the Ports Act. This
will enable SFS to be an anchor for any LNG infrastructure
that is constructed in the Coega special economic zone, SEZ.
We also intend to finalise discussion with Total energy to
unlock the gas that has been found in Southern Cape. The
discussions are at an advanced stage and when finalised could
see gas flowing into the Mossel Bay area to enable Gourikwa
gas plant and the Petroleum Oil and Gas Corporation of South
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 93
Africa, PetroSA, gas-to-liquids, GTL, plant and any other new
power plants in the area before the end of the decade.
Therefore, is a medium long-term plan. However, we are working
on that plan. That’s where we are.
Mr M J WOLMARANS: Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you,
hon Minister, for the response. However, given that the gas
industry is yet to be fully implemented and subsequently also
accelerated and the fact that the drastic increases in the oil
prices would likely to expose Eskom to unprecedented load
shedding which has impacted negatively already on the
households and businesses. To what extent with what
consequences will the renewable energies provide a buffer
energy against the possible load shedding, taking into account
the uncertainty of the duration of the conflict we are seeing
now?
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Thank you, House
Chairperson. Gas industry is unfolding. We swam against the
stream of people who does declared the war on anything that
looks like fossil fuel, and therefore declared their interests
in destroying gas industry. Now, I’m sure many of those and
now disappointed that Europe has labelled gas and nuclear as
part of the green transition, because that opens that space to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 94
appreciate that transition is not an event, but a journey that
we must navigate through as a country. Therefore, the gas
industry will be with us in the transition in a big way. The
renewable energy I’m sure when we are answering questions,
during the state of the nation address, we explained that with
all the other interventions that we have made, we have just
approved a bid window 5, which is 2 600 megawatts.
We are now putting out a request for proposal for bid window 6
which is another 2 600. Before the end of this year we will
put a third bid, bid window 7, which is another 2 600. If you
calculate, it doesn’t need mathematics, it just needs
arithmetic, and it will give you a total of 7 800 megawatts in
the pipeline. That is what we are doing and that is
acceleration of the implementation of the renewable energy
programme. However, what we are not closing our eyes to is
that the renewable energy must be supplemented by other
technologies and we are actually actively managing that ...
[Inaudible.]
Mr K J MILEHAM: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the real
challenge of converting to a gas to power solution are there
as a transitional technology or as a long-term source of the
electricity, lies in our ability to source store transport and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 95
utilise gas resources. Now, given that South Africa currently
has very limited proven gas resources and our major sources
supply Mozambique, there gas resources are currently in an
area of conflict and dispute. Where will we get this gas from
in the short-term? How will it be delivered and stored in
South Africa, and what have you done to secure the necessary
environmental and put authorisations to make gas to power a
reality? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): May I remind members
that according to Rule 142 you know that you can’t ask more
than one supplementary question. You may proceed the hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Gas
infrastructure is being developed. Now, I always remind my
friend there, Mr Mileham, that when we introduced renewables
here we had no infrastructure. That’s why it was so costly.
Bid window 1 costs us R5,24 a unit; bid window 2, R2,94 a
unit; bid window 3, R1,74 a unit; and bid window 4, R1,07 a
unit. We are not complaining about that because it was a
premium that we had to pay to bring a technology into the
economy. Therefore, another technology will have invest in the
infrastructure, and I’m sure you listened very carefully when
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 96
I talked about LNG infrastructure in Coega. We are working on
that and there is private LNG infrastructure in Richards Bay.
We have just introduced a mini LNG structure in Saldanha.
Therefore, that infrastructure will facilitate development of
the gas sector as an economic sector, and we are quite
enthused about it because it is quite important to have that
infrastructure, because if we don’t have that infrastructure
we will have to import the infrastructure. That’s why even
the issue of the SA Petroleum Refineries, Sapref, is subjected
to a discussion that is very involved today and say we can’t
collapse Sapref at this point in time because we need internal
refining capacity in addition to our ability to import refined
products. Therefore, the point I make here is that
infrastructure is developed, infrastructure doesn’t fall from
the sky, and you will have to invest in it and develop it.
[Applause.]
Ms P MADOKWE: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Minister, the recent discoveries of gas around South Africa if
properly managed would be highly beneficial for South Africa
which is currently highly reliant on imported oil and gas.
Multinational co-operations that have created their nation’s
wealth by looting African resources are the main players in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 97
this conversation and stand to benefit most from the scourge.
What are you doing in your department to protect our natural
resources and guarantee that every drop benefits our people
and our country, and that gas infrastructure and technologies
is locally produced? It cannot be right that foreigners can
grab our resources simply because they discovered them.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: One of the
issues that enthuse me is the discovery of gas in our shores,
whether it is in Southern Cape, whether it is in the Karoo in
the form of shale gas, and whether it is prospects of
discovering in the West Coast or Wild Coast, all that
encourages me because I think it will save us from importing
all the basic input to the economy. Now, I’m not one of those
people who see foreign investment as an enemy of the country.
I don’t see that. I want investment in the country, direct
foreign investment is part of the necessary elements of
increasing investment in the economy. Once there is investment
in the economy then you are having space to have a number of
options that you can follow.
Therefore, the reason that I’m not an enemy of foreign direct
investment is because all my working life I worked for
companies that are regarded as foreign. Your Anglo American
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 98
though it was formed by South African mining, it is seen as
foreign because it is seen as white monopoly capital. I don’t
see that and I see it as the necessary company that should be
here and that must stay here. I see companies needing to
invest in our economy for our economy to grow. In this day and
age equity holding have no home because you list a company in
the stock exchange and many shareholders from various
countries buy the shares. So, it’s quite a strange philosophy
that foreign direct investment is the enemy, is not the enemy
it must be attracted and we must encourage our own people to
invest in companies that are active in our economy more and
more. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. Hon
Minister, you are quite enthusing today. Therefore, I think we
all feel very enthused, and you used the word twice, when we
can move from the ratio of using coal to provide energy which
is 89% compared to gas which is 3%. Now, hon Minister, you’ve
spoken about the importing of gas and our shareholding in the
Mozambique pipeline. What I like to know the direct question
is of the R8,5 billion soft loan that was granted by rich
countries at the Conference of the Parties, Cop 26, in
Scotland. Has there been any thought amongst the Ministers who
are dealing with these funds to utilise part of that funds to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 99
further develop gas pipelines and use gas as a source of
providing energy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: I’m sure hon
Singh knows that I’m not one of the people who think that coal
must disappear yesterday. I know that it is here and it will
be here for a long time with us. I’m a believer that
transition must be managed systematically. That’s why one of
the correct outcomes of Cop 26 is phasing down rather than
phasing out. Therefore, that tells us that we must be
systematic and be step-by-step - I believe that in coal. That
as a reminder you know I don’t know if you know that the
R8,5 billion was R131 billion at the time it is, this week is
about R128 billion – this week in terms of the exchange rate.
Coal in 2021, had a turnover of R130 billion. So, is not a
mickey mouse sector, it is a big sector, it makes money, it
generates income, and it sustain the number of people.
Therefore, I don’t want to get into the argument about the
money because it’s not in my portfolio. My understanding is
that that is in the portfolio of the Minister in the
Presidency - that’s where Mr Mminele is. Mr Mminele who is
heading that is working in the Ministry or in the Presidency.
Therefore, I don’t want to temper with it because tempering
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 100
and stampede on activities totally disorganise activities. So,
we allow it to happen and we must be consulted from time to
time, but appreciate that the responsibility is in the
Minister in the Presidency. [Applause.]
Question 207:
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, hon
Chairperson. My reply to hon Cardo is as follows; the list of
people who were involved in the development of the Draft
Labour Migration Policy is very long. I don’t think it will do
justice in mentioning every individual who participated in the
process.
The Draft National Labour Migration Policy is a product of
extensive consultations among the senior management of the
Department of Employment and Labour, the Employment Services
Board, the Director-General Technical Committee, the Inter-
Ministerial Committee on Migration covering 12 departments
that was appointed by the President and co-chaired by myself
and the Minister of Home Affairs. The International Labour
Organisation, ILO; expert based locally and in Geneva; the
technical support that was provided by the department in the
form of Professor Marius Olivier; and Professor Paul Benjamin
from Cheadle Thompson & Haysom Inc.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 101
The draft policy was subjected to the socioeconomic impact
assessment system. The Director-General’s Economic Employment
and Infrastructure social cluster, the Cabinet Committee on
Economic Employment and Infrastructure, and the Cabinet as a
whole. So, we do not have the records of the proportions of
the salaries that each individual who participated at
different stages of drafting the policy would have earned
during this time or they spent in those sessions. The cost of
the provision of the special assistance to them was a private
and confidential matter between the International Labour
Organisation, ILO, and Professor Olivier after we submitted
our request. The Cheadle Thompson & Haysom attorneys were
appointed by Dell at the cost of R2,7 million spread over 18
months on this particular project. Thank you.
Dr M J CARDO: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, one of the
recommendations contained in the National Labour Migration
Policy is the introduction of employment quotas for foreign
nationals in certain sectors of the economy. Now, the correct
term for this practice is job reservation, an old apartheid
era practice that was tossed into the dustbin of history in
1979, long before apartheid itself was toppled. Minister, do
you support a return to apartheid era job reservation? If not,
why does the National Labour Migration Policy advocates
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 102
employment quotas for foreign nationals in certain sectors of
the economy?
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: It might sound so but
it’s not. The apartheid policy was racial this is not racial.
This is about protecting the interest of the South Africans. I
know the reason why you are coming up with this matter, it is
because most of the employers who want to exploit cheap labour
are the ones who want this particular practice to continue.
That’s the issue and the reality is that we cannot be mum and
not respond to the complaint of our people in the country.
However, what we will not do is to deal with this matter in a
reckless way. We have to deal with this matter in a proper way
by respecting the human rights for all. For that particular
matter, this is happening in many countries in this particular
continent. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, if you can
listen to yourselves we can’t even hear the Minister very
well. We have said it many times that those who don’t come to
the House, please, know this House is small for you to be
shouting at each other. We proceed.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 103
Ms A S ZUMA: Thank you, Chairperson. I will take on behalf of
hon Dunjwa. Notwithstanding that the National Labour Migration
Policy is still being processed out there, but the question
has been asked on it here, interestingly only just money,
nothing else. Minister, I am interested on key features of the
National Labour Migration Policy and the challenges that they
are trying to solve. What are they? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you Chairperson
and thanks to this follow-up question on the key features. The
proposed draft National Labour Migration Policy and proposed
Employment Services Amendment Bill are part of this
government’s Medium-Term Strategic Framework interventions,
that are central to realising the growth objectives. They also
contribute to other objectives relating to relations with the
neighbouring countries, the region and the world National
cohesion, social and economic stability and trade relations.
We are not an island. So, we are part of this global system.
So, this draft Labour Migration Policy, firstly, fulfils South
Africa’s commitment made at the level of Southern African
Development Community, SADC, the Southern African Development
Community, SADC, employment and labour sector to develop in
the adopt Labour Migration Policies by the end of 2019.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 104
Secondly, there is a need to provide guidance to the
Department of Employment and Labour, the Department of Home
Affairs and other government departments on the desire to
policy framework applicable to labour migration in South
Africa. Thirdly, it provides evidence-based labour migration
approach in a range of related areas; recruitment, data
requirements and labour migration to and from South Africa,
which has been either insufficient or absent.
Fourthly and lastly, it provides guidance on the appropriate
legislative framework to accompany the policy. In the fifth
and the sixth instances, it provides for improved labour and
social protection of migrant workers to and fro South Africa.
You must not think that it’s only people, it is inward
migration. We have a lot of South Africans who go into other
countries who also must be protected. It provides the clear
policy direction on the regulatory provisions, the
operationalisation and the framework for South Africa’s
responses to the African Union, AU, and Southern African
Development Community, SADC, regional instruments in the
making and recently adopted ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you.
Ms C N MKHONTO: Thank you, Chair. Minister, firstly, is the
department under any pressure to develop this policy as a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 105
result of the growing xenophobic sentiments in the country and
is your development of this policy not an encouragement to the
xenophobia out there? Secondly, why have you not seen it fit
to develop internal capacity within your department to write
policies of this nature instead of outsourcing it to private
individuals? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: If the hon member
listened carefully the people whom I have listed here, 95% if
not 98% are in the departments, different departments.
However, the reality was that this is a complex legal and
constitutional matter. We’ve had to consult with the
constitutional experts and the legal experts in labour
relations on this matter. The only person who came from
outside and not even paid by us who’s an expert in this
particular field, I’ve told you that it is Professor Olivier
who was also sponsored by the International Labour
Organisation, ILO. So, there is no question of consultant
here. This process was led by the deputy director-general,
DDG, in the department.
To say are we under pressure? We have to respond to the
expectations of our people in the midst of high unemployment.
We can’t just keep quiet when many sectors call it
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 106
agriculture, security, retail and many sectors, when you find
that in some of them 90% of the people they are employing are
the people who are coming from outside. For that matter, they
are distorting the labour market by not sticking to the
agreements and including the basic conditions of employment.
And, we can just keep quiet, we have to respond. So, that’s
why we are responding to those issues. In fact, by coming up
with this approach we are trying to regulate it so that we
deal with the xenophobia. We are trying to stop xenophobia and
come up with a regulated approach. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. I have
a question here from hon Nqcobo who sits on this committee,
but I am going to put that aside and ask my own question. Hon
Minister, you are aware that the IFP has got a Private
Members’ Bill on the Table, where we also are proposing that
in areas where South Africans can perform certain functions
truck drivers, restaurant workers, etc. menial jobs that the
larger majority and percentage of those jobs should go to
South Africans.
Now, we don’t find that happening. If you go to the Western
Cape and many of us, if we have a chance to go to the
restaurants, we find that many of the people employed there
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 107
are foreign people, doing jobs which I think South Africans
could do. So, do you agree that there needs to be this kind of
regulation so that we can protect the interests of South
Africans and reduce unemployment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Definitely, hon Singh,
we will listen and interact with the Private Members’ Bill
what it proposes. However, also we must be very careful,
looking at the Constitution where we cannot ban people. There
are refugees who would be here legally and in terms of the
international protocols, which we have signed as a country,
they have a right to look for economic activity in order to
sustain themselves. So, we can’t ban them but we can be able
to regulate that.
I think many countries are following what you are proposing.
It’s something which we will have to analyse but we know that
there are constitutional implications. That’s why I said we
had to consult the constitutional and labour experts in order
to ensure that we do not violate our own Constitution and they
warned us about that. You can regulate it and put quotas but
you can’t ban it. However, very interesting, the point you are
emphasising is the practice of the Western Cape which always
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 108
portrays itself as a good province when it is living on
expectation. Thank you.
Question 231:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson,
the question is multifaceted in that it talks about continued
use of fossil fuel for energy generation; and then it talks
about Western environmental consciousness of convenience with
genuine climate change concerns and the government’s
commitments at the conference. In other words, it says fossil
fuels are used in developed economies but we are told to leave
them yesterday. The reality of the matter is that the matter
referred to in the question should be addressed to the
Department of Forestry and Fisheries and Environmental
Affairs. I am referring it to Minister Creecy right here. The
department is better placed to provide leadership in
environmental management ... [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, House Chair. On a
point of order, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 109
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: This question was placed long ago on the
Question Paper. For the Minister to even come here to this
House and say it must be referred to another department and
even make a joke about it ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... is really ridiculous. We can’t be
sitting here until six ? clock ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... for a man to come and just stand up and
say it’s going to be referred.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No, man. No, man! Come on!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, we
don’t want that argument. The hon Minister is still on the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 110
floor. Allow the Minister to give the response. Proceed, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: You know,
superiority complex gives you a right that you don’t have that
there’s a monopoly of wisdom, and therefore stop everybody
else who doesn’t say what you want to hear. It is quite a
terrible disease which requires to be treated seriously.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Easy now, tiger.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: The department
is better placed to provide that leadership there. But what is
important is that we take an active interest in the unfolding
developments and discussions on just transition which are
beginning to take good shape for us to manage the transition
systematically and proactively. We are part of that and we
agree with it. Developments in the EU confirm that the need
for being systematic is to get a nuclear now and be labelled
as part of the green transition. They were regarded as fossil
fuel that must not be touched. They were not even accepting
nuclear as being part of the green transition. Now, that is
changing.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 111
I think the pressure from the Russian/Ukrainian conflict is
actually putting new pressures in a sense that the demand for
coal has increased particularly from the EU and from us.
Therefore, that demand tells that we must be more systematic
in managing the transition and not be fashionable. That is
where we are but I think the bigger part of the question
should go to my colleague there. She is accepting that. Thank
you very much.
Ms P MADOKWE: House Chair, the ?8,5 billion pledged in
response to South Africa’s commitment to move away from coal
only covers a portion that we will need to fully transition.
Despite the fact that there are actual climate change problems
that must be addressed, the reality is that this agreement is
imperialist in character since it requires developing nations
to suffer expenditures by transitioning in a short space of
time, thus trapping them in a cycle of poverty and reliance on
foreign aid. What factors influenced South Africa’s decision
to enter into such a ludicrous agreement that will cost the
country more money and strangle the coal industry? And where
is a plan to raise the money to satisfy this obligation when
it can barely find enough money to fund basic service delivery
commitments it made years ago?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 112
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: The follow-up
question confirms my submission for which I was shouted, that
a person who can deal with this issue competently is the
Ministry in the Presidency. Now, I’m shifting it from the
Minister of Forestry and Fisheries and Environmental Affairs
because the person employed to deal with financing transition
is located in the Ministry in the Presidency. But I think the
content of what should be debated here is still in the
Department of Forestry and Fisheries and Environmental
Affairs. I am making that submission.
It is helpful sometimes to be humble enough to know what is
not in your portfolio and not pretend as if everything is in
your portfolio. It is not in my portfolio. But the reality of
the matter is that coal must be phased down. It must be
managed carefully. It must continue fulfilling the market
demands and in terms of the International Association for the
Evaluation of Educational Achievement, IEA Research, coal
demand will be growing up to 2024. Our coal miners must
actually exploit that opportunity fully and not be engaged in
a premature destruction of an industry that is actually a
healthy industry. That is our submission in this regard.
Mr T M LANGA: That guy is not responding to questions.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 113
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Langa, do you want
assistance?
Mr S LUZIPHO: Thank you, hon Minister. In view of South
Africa’s commitment to the Paris Agreement on Climate Change,
what plans does the department have in place to strike a
balance between tackling emissions to help the country to
transition in a flexible manner towards a low-carbon
situation, being cognisant of the fact that the coal industry
remains one of the mainstays of South Africa’s energy basket
as well as a strategic centre, as far as job creation and job
security are concerned? Thank you very much, House
Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: South Africa is
a signatory to the Paris Agreement. It is not portions of
southern governments that are signatories. It is the South
African government that is signatory to the Paris Agreement.
Moving from high-carbon emission to low-carbon emission is a
commitment that is undertaken by the country – everybody. We
are part of that but the reality of the matter is that we must
manage that transition carefully, and be pragmatic in managing
it. That’s our argument. Coal is around and it will be phased
down.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 114
The reason that we invested in the Rompco pipeline and
continue to want to invest in gas is that, we think that, if
Rompco pipeline is used optimally, repurposing some of the
coal fire power station to gas power station and therefore
replace coal turbines with gas turbines, will be a
contribution in managing that transition. There are quite a
number of transitional interventions that are necessary.
However, one of the issues when people talk about close coal
now, I always invite them to visit with me and we just travel
from Wilma to Delmas, Belfast to Delmas, and see the real
impact of coal mining and coal-generated power in a stretch -
one stretch from Belfast to Delmas. Many people don’t care
about that and they talk about numbers. I am saying, let’s
talk about people and communities.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister, I saw how adeptly you dodged my
previous two questions. Hopefully, I can get a straight answer
from you this time and it does fall directly in your
portfolio. Given that we have a crisis of electricity supply;
the fact that we have committed to the Paris Agreement; and
that we have submitted our own nationally-determined
contributions to the United Nations Framework Convention on
Climate Change; and given that Bid Window 5 was massively
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 115
oversubscribed – there were 102 bidders offering 9 600
megawatts of electricity of which government procured 2 583
megawatts from 25 bidders at a price well below what Eskom is
offering, my question to you is very simple, Minister. Will
you raise or remove the curb on renewable energy in the
Integrated Resource Plan, IRP? Currently, it sits at 1 000
megawatts for solar and 1 600 megawatts of wind per annum.
Will you raise or remove that curb in order to speed up our
transition and bring new generation capacity on line? And if
not, why not? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Any government
that has no policy framework will do trial and error. But when
there is a policy framework, you execute to implement that
policy framework. That’s why implementing the Bid Windows
religiously is about execution and compliance with the
framework that is determined and tested. It is assumed that,
if you remove them, there will be oversubscription.
You know, this time last year, Mr Mileham - I want to remind
you - you were all on our case that, if you deregulate
embedded generation from one megawatt to 100 megawatts, there
will be a flood of applications. A year later, we have not
registered a single application - not one. We are encouraging
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 116
companies particularly mining companies to do apply and use
that opportunity.
So, sometimes this assumption that, when you make a policy
amendment, there’s going to be a flood, it doesn’t work in
real life. If you have ever managed anything, you will know
that. That stream – you will know that. You will need to
actually manage that. What is nice about Bid Windows being
implemented is that they constitute contracts and commitments.
They are not like free deregulated space in energy. Once you
supply there, you are committing and therefore we monitor you.
We can be ensured that you do implement what you committed to
... [Inaudible.] ... to it.
Therefore, removing the gap maybe is necessary but from where
I’m seated, I want to see that 7 800 megawatts being
implemented. Then, I will know that we are making progress
because 7 800 megawatts are about the size of actually two and
half power stations currently. If we can build those in the
framework that we have set, we will be making progress because
...
IsiXhosa:
... awekho amandla angoko nangoko. Amandla ...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 117
English:
... once you approve a framework, they build infrastructure,
they generate, and they connect to a transition. So, sometimes
this thing of imagined instant energy doesn’t work in real
life. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Minister, I agree with you that the money that
is going to be made available resides within the Ministry in
the Presidency. But there is no doubt that Cluster of
Ministers who sit here will to a large extent influence how
that money is going to be spent. I think we have to take that
into account as well. It has also been said, hon Minister. I
read somewhere that somebody said the energy sector is
dominated by the use of coal because it is plentiful and
cheap. It may be plentiful and cheap but cheap for whom? Cheap
for the people who are producing energy but costly to those
people who are living in Mpumalanga and other areas, who are
affected by these obnoxious gases all the time. My question to
you, hon Minister, is: Has there been a study done that, as
you manage this transition and phase away your coal mines,
those workers who are employed in that industry be trained to
do something else within the renewable energy sector; and
those who cannot be trained, there should be a safety net
provided for them in terms of income by government? Has there
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 118
been that thought amongst that Cluster of Ministers? Thank you
very much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: I am one of the
victims of having been a coal miner. As a coal miner, I am
still guilty that I was a coal miner. I think I made a
contribution. Energy dominated by coal is not an accident of
history that we need to wipe out as quickly as we can.
We developed Eskom in 1923. It has been the primary and only
energy supplier entity in the country for almost a century. To
move from that to a new design of energy supply, must be
managed properly. So, we don’t have coal that is dominating by
accident or is an accident of history. It was built in 1923
and continued to supply energy in the 1990s.
Not many centuries ago, that entity called Eskom was supplying
one of the three lowest-cost energies in the world. So,
sometimes when you want to change the direction of history, we
have this thing of wanting to curse what has carried us over a
long period of time. We can’t curse coal because it carried
us. Now, there’s pressure to move from high-carbon emission to
low-carbon emission. We must commit to that and implement
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 119
programmes that will do that. There are workers and
communities there.
That’s why I am saying, in actually phasing down coal use, we
must repurpose some of the power stations. I am saying gas is
such an alternative. Renewables are such an alternative and in
the process, workers should be absorbed in those. But it
should go beyond that and develop an alternative economic
framework for the area because, in the area where I stayed for
a number of years, the Delmas to Belfast area is much bigger
than what you see in the Newcastle-Vryheid area. It’s massive
and we must apply our minds in absorbing those workers and
those communities. Protect them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, the time
... [Interjections.]
Ms J TSHABALALA: Hon House Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Can you ...
Minister, can you switch off your mic, please? Is there
something?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 120
Ms J TSHABALALA: Yes. Hon House Chair, I rise on Rule 64 on a
point of order. I don’t know if you want to conclude or you
would allow me to raise it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Please do before.
Ms J TSHABALALA: Thank you so much. House Chair, I rise on
Rule 64 like I said, on conduct of members. Conduct of members
is explicitly clear that members must at all times accord the
Presiding Officer of the National Assembly and members with
due respect and conduct themselves with dignity with decorum
of the House and are required to enter and leave the House
with decorum. I’m just quoting point one. The reason why I am
rising is that, when we started, hon MacGluwa did raise a
point of order around hon Paulsen who had switched on his
video on virtual and was smoking some substance. Hon Deputy
Speaker could not rule on it because he was not aware of what
was happening on virtual. There is a video trending as
evidence on social media. Parliament also utilises social
media as formal communication. We have a country and an
obligation that is following us. So, we want to raise it and I
want to raise it with you that, as a presiding officer, Madam
Chair, can you go back and look at that video, and also
subject this member to the Ethics Committee? You need to come
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 121
to this House and rule on it because you need to rule and make
sure that we adhere to the conduct and decorum of the House.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Thank you.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, may I
respond to the hon member first.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, you are
aware that at the time, as the hon member is saying, there was
the Deputy Speaker on this chair and there was a point of
order. Now, you have evidence of what you are talking about. I
cannot rule and I cannot take it to the Ethics Committee but I
will refer and take it back to the Deputy Speaker who will
decide on the matter.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 122
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini. Hon
Ntlangwini first, hon Paulsen. If you can allow her unless she
gives you the opportunity. But on this matter, I have ruled. I
am not going to entertain anything on this matter. Hon
Ntlangwini, may I hear what you want to say.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair. I wanted
to speak before you make the ruling. House Chair, there have
been many other members doing ... and I am not condoning what
the hon Nazier has done but ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon ...
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Wait. Here me out.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, may I
stop you just there. [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I am not condoning what he was doing. It’s
very wrong. However, ...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 123
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am not ruling.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: She must go and fetch all those people who
have been seen even naked on videos here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, will
you please stop! [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Stop being a hypocrite!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, please
stop!
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Stop being a hypocrite!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, please
stop! On this matter, I have ruled and that is what I have
said now. I will take it back to the Deputy Speaker. I am not
going to allow anything on this matter. Hon members ...
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: We want all of them who have been at ...
[Inaudible.] ... and naked to go to the Committee.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 23 MARCH 2022
Page: 124
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Outstanding replies
received will be printed on Hansard. Thank you. The House is
adjourned.
AN HON MEMBER: Chairperson.
AN HON MEMBER: Long live, madam!
The House adjourned at 18:12.
Audio
No related