Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 17 Mar 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID) [GHC]
The House met at 14:03.
The SPEAKER: There will now be an opportunity for silent prayer or medication. [Laughter.] That’s because you were late, Mr President. That is why. [Laughter.] You were late. Thank you very much. Order, hon members. [Interjections.]
Order, order! Order, hon members.
Mr S N SWART: Honourable Speaker, may I address you on a point of medication? [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: What is the point of medication, honourable?
Thank you very much, hon members.
Hon members, in the interest of safety for all present in the Chamber, please keep your masks on and sit in your designated areas. I thank you.
The only item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the President. There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to this sitting through the virtual platform.
The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the Presiding Officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, among others, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Members asking supplementary questions or raising points of order may remain seated when doing so.
QUESTIONS TO THE PRESIDENT
Question 1:
The PRESIDENT: Honourable Speaker, my apologies, I forgot to take my medication this morning. [Laughter.] So, if I seem a bit slow, just blame it on my forgetfulness to take my medication.
The conflict in Ukraine is a matter of global concern to many citizens in various countries. The international community needs to work together to achieve a cessation of hostilities and to prevent further loss of life and displacement of the citizens and the civilians of Ukraine. It needs to support meaningful dialogue towards a lasting and meaningful peace, which ensures the security and stability of all nations.
As a country we are committed to the articles of the United Nations Charter, including the principle that all members
shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means. We support the principle that members should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial and political independence of other states. That is why, at the UN General Assembly Emergency Special Session, South Africa strongly urged all sides to uphold international law, including humanitarian law and human rights law, as well as the principles of the UN Charter, including sovereignty as well.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 4
While there are people within our country and elsewhere that
want South Africa to adopt a more adversarial position, our
position seeks to contribute to the creation of conditions
that make the achievement of a durable resolution of the
conflict possible. Through this approach we are able to make
our voice heard, not only publicly, but also to the parties
that are involved in the conflict. As we talk to them,
exchange views and interact with them we bring are influence
to bear on the issue of dialogue, mediation and negotiation,
which has always stood us in good stead as a nation.
[Applause.]
Our approach is informed by an analysis of the causes of this
conflict. This includes a view shared by many leading
scholars, politicians and other people on international
relations, that the war could have been avoided if North
Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, had heeded the warnings
from among its own leaders and officials over the years that
its eastward expansion would lead to greater, not less,
instability in the region. This was also based on agreement
that had been arrived at in the past amongst various parties.
While it is important to understand and articulate the causes
of the conflict, and advocate for peace building measures, we
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 5
cannot condone the use of force or violation of international
law. We also need to recognise that coercive measures such as
sanctions, outside of the legal prescripts of the United
Nations, may serve to prolong and intensify the conflict.
Like other countries, South Africa is concerned about the
direct impact of the conflict on our own economy, through
financial markets and inflationary pressures that will come
about through food and fuel price increases.
As a small and open economy with significant debt levels, one
of the most significant steps that we can take to reduce our
vulnerability to external shocks is to improve our
macroeconomic stability. We have many strengths even as a
small economy country, such as a highly developed and well-
capitalised financial and banking sector that adheres to
internationally recognised frameworks.
The depth of local capital markets reduces our vulnerability
to foreign currency-denominated debt. We benefit from having
an independent central bank, a floating exchange rate regime
and prudent capital controls. These strengths will be
complemented by the work underway to stabilise debt and reduce
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 6
our deficits alongside the far-reaching structural reforms
that are now underway.
In short, the best way to protect our economy and welfare of
our people is to proceed with the implementation of the
Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan. The conflict in
Ukraine demonstrates the need for a multilateral approach to
issues of peace and security. It also demonstrates the
weaknesses in the structure, practices and architecture of the
United Nations. The composition of the UN Security Council, in
particular, does not reflect the realities of the prevailing
global landscape. [Applause.] A continent of 1,3 billion
people does not have a significant voice in the United Nations
Security Council is something of great concern to the citizens
of this continent. [Applause.]
There is a tendency for the most powerful countries to use
their positions as permanent UN Security Council members to
serve their national interests rather than the interests of
global peace and stability. The Security Council needs to be
overhauled so that there is equitable representation and a
more inclusive mechanism for resolving international disputes.
We should also work to revitalise the Non-Aligned Movement to
ensure that those countries that are not part of the hegemonic
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 7
contests between the big powers can work together to build
peace across the globe.
We align ourselves with the calls led by the UN Secretary-
General, Mr Antonio Guterres, for de-escalation, dialogue and
a return to diplomacy. Additionally, the Secretary-General has
called for an immediate ceasefire, respect for the UN Charter
and international law and adherence to existing peace
mechanisms, including the implementation of the Minsk
Agreements as part of multilateral efforts to end the
violence. [Applause.]
South Africa stands ready to support genuine multilateral
efforts to end the conflict and achieve a lasting peace in the
region. Hon Speaker, I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T N MMUTLE: Hon Speaker, thank you to the hon President for
the response. In light of your response, hon President, it
will seem that the system of veto right of the United Nations
Security Council is constraining the United Nations’ ability
to resolve international disputes, and this therefore gives
space to military alliance such as NATO to assume the
responsibility of resolving international disputes. What does
this observation say in regard to the ability of the United
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 8
Nations to be central and lead the resolution of international
conflict to perceive international peace and security? This,
Mr President, is a gap that we have identified and what will
be the observation in that regard, so that we don’t allow
those that are privilege like NATO to take responsibility that
should be taken by the United Nations? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, one of the reasons why the United
Nations was set up was to ensure that there is peace,
stability and avoidance of conflicts in the world. The
Security Council, in the way that it was put together, was
supposed to engender the building of peace around the world,
but its architecture, as I have said, which excludes other
voices — much as they participate on a non-permanent basis —
their voices whilst present do not have the same weight and
impact as those of the permanent members. That is why we are
saying, particularly our continent, it is continuing to urge
that the United Nations Security Council should be reformed
and other countries should be enabled to participate. We are
not only talking about the African continent, there a number
of other countries around the world which will be able to
bring their voices to the table so that the views on the
Security Council are properly weighed up and lead to a
consideration of different perspectives and views.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 9
If that were to happen, I believe that the UN Security Council
would be able to be a much better structure of the UN and be
able to ensure that there is peace and stability in the world,
and bringing together many other voices like the African
continent which has never really enjoyed permanent seat on the
UN Security Council. We think we have a role to play and we
can add a great deal of value in the building of peace in the
world.
Therefore, it is for this reason that we say the absence of
other countries on the UN Security Council as permanent
members weakens the peace efforts of the United Nations, and
that is why we continue to insist that it should be reformed.
Had the UN Security Council been reformed, we believe that we
would have been in a much stronger position to ensure that
conflicts such as this are avoided and they are actively
managed and peace is brought about. So, it is important that
the UN Security Council should be reformed. Now we have even
more evidence to advocate for the reform of the UN Security
Council. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, to the President, one of the
greatest tragedies of ... [Inaudible.] ... country outlook is
policy inconsistency or policy uncertainty. Mr President,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 10
today I think you have moved an inch closer to helping us
understand the very confused South African government outlook
on this matter and that there have been many contradictions
characterising our response to what the invasion of Ukraine by
Russia. Mr President, we put this to you, does the South
African government find it justifiable that Russia would
invade Ukraine, and is the President prepared to move away
from the mystic terminology of calling this a conflict or a
military operation and call it what it is so that we can be
able to mete out a correct response to what is actually
happening right now? As you have called it correctly, Mr
President, a war. But the policy consistency is required and
you need to call it what it is. So, we need to know clearly
today, what is the South African government’s thinking, and
what are you calling what is actually going on right now?
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, if hon Hlengwa was listening very
carefully to what I said earlier right at the beginning, you
would have been able to have heard an answer in what I said.
Our position is very clear. I did say that there are those who
are insisting that we should take a very adversarial stance
and position against Russia. The approach that we have chosen
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 11
to take, which is appreciated by many, is that we are
insisting that there should be dialogue.
What is happening out there is undesirable and it is not what
should be happening between nations. War and violence never
really solve any problems. It is for this reason that we would
prefer, and we insist, that there should be mediation,
dialogue and negotiation.
I am pleased to continue hearing and having heard it from
President Putin himself that the negotiations are ongoing and
they are making progress. For us, this is an important
development. Whilst other people scream and shout, we want to
focus on the positive outcome of those negotiations and the
mediation process. That is what is important. [Applause.]
Screaming and shouting is not going to bring an end to this
conflict. It is the proper engagement that is going to do so.
I have also said that I want to speak to the President of
Ukraine, and we are also speaking to a number of other world
leaders. Only last night as I was addressing a dinner, I got a
message that two other heads of state also want to talk to
South Africa so that the position that we have taken can be
taken forward. Some are even approaching us on a role that we
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 12
can play. We are a small economy country and we never want to
pretend that we have the great influence that many other
countries have, but we are being approached and we are saying,
as I said in my statement, we are ready to play a role. Whilst
others say condemn that one or that one, it actually
forecloses the role that we could play.
You know, we played an important role in the Northern Ireland
conflict. I got involved; Prime Minister Tony Blair brought me
and the President of Finland at the time, Martti Ahtisaari,
into the conflict and we took a view as South Africa that we
are not going to condemn Britain or the Northern Ireland. We
took that view because we knew that by condemning, we will
foreclose any role we could play. As a result, we were brought
in to play a role to implement the Good Friday Agreement, and
in the end, we created a very conducive situation for the guns
to be silenced in the Northern Ireland.
I forever remember an occasion when I was in Belfast at a
meeting, an old Irish lady came to me and said: “You are Cyril
Ramaphosa, you come from South Africa and you have been
brought here to come and resolve our conflict.” She said:
“Wow, the old colonialists must be turning in their graves
that now you have been brought here.” [Applause.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 13
Now, this is the stance that we have decided to take. Let me
tell you, it is born out of our own experience, history and we
believe it is the correct stance to take right now to help in
the resolution of this conflict. So, if you listened to me
carefully, hon Hlengwa, right at the beginning, you would have
found your answer. I am quite happy to ensure that my answer
is sent to you in print so that you can read it. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
Mr B N HERRON: Madam Speaker, we can get behind much of what
the President said today that the war could have been avoided,
we advocate for peace, we don’t condone the violence and we
are ready to support the multilateral efforts. The President
referenced now to a mediation in Northern Ireland. As the
President would know, there were two preconditions that former
President Mandela imposed. One was that there should be a
cease fire and the other was that all parties should request
our participation in the mediation.
Last week the President indicated that we have been approached
to mediate, and I am wondering if the President can share with
the House how we envisage our mediation rolling out, and
whether we would impose those same preconditions. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 14
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, it does seem like what I am saying
today is not getting through. [Laughter.] I did say right at
the end of my initial answer that we support the efforts of
the Secretary-General of the United Nations. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, Muntwa on the virtual platform.
The PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General of the United Nations has
said it clearly that he wants to see the end of this conflict
and there should be a cease fire. Clearly that is what
everyone else would desire. We do not support war because war
results in just too many problems and challenges for people.
We support the end of this war, and last night I was also able
to say that we would like the war to end. Obviously, a cease
fire is the beginning of that process to bring an end to the
war, and then serious negotiations should ensue. Those
negotiations are ongoing. I got it from none other than the
President of Russia who I spoke to said that negotiations are
ongoing and they are showing some promise.
Now, we have been approached by a number of other
interlocutors, some of whom are not necessarily playing a
direct role in the conflict. We say that when called upon to
do so we would be ready to make a contribution, however minor
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 15
that contribution would be. So, we stand ready and we stand on
the side of peace, dialogue and negotiations. That is our
position and nothing can be clearer than what I have just said
now. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms N V MENTE: Hon Speaker, indeed NATO should have taken a
hint that it should not have any ambition to extend to the
eastern Europe because that will cause a great instability.
President, in 2001 the United States invaded Afghanistan in
search of Osama bin Laden. In 2003 they, together with
Britain, lied to the world and invaded Iraq under the false
pretence that Iraq had nuclear weapons. All these happened
without being sanctioned by multilateral institutions. From
March to October 2011 NATO flattened Libya with their bombs
until they murdered our brother Muammar Gaddafi. The present
crisis in eastern Europe is as a result of the push by the US
to expand NATO. What impact has the unilateral destruction of
countries by the US and their allies had on the ability of
multilateral institutions to promote peace and harmony
coexistence amongst nations in the world? Thank you, Speaker.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, clearly as I said in my main
answer to the first question once again. I said that we need
to look at the history ... [Interjections.] ... It will get
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 16
through eventually. I think it is important that we also look
at the history and hon member Mente is getting us to that
point where she said that we need to look at what history has
taught us. Some of us may forget that in 1962 the world was
almost plunged into a nuclear war when at the time the Soviet
Union had sought to put missile in Cuba and the United States
was very clear that that was something they would never allow.
Because to allow a power like the Soviet Union to put its
missiles in Cuba would have been an existential threat to
them, and the world was brought this close to a nuclear war.
I didn’t quite understand at the time because I was 10 years
old, but the history that I have read tells me that it could
have been catastrophic. We have seen how over time countries
have been invaded and wars have been launched over the many
years. That, as hon Mente seeks to address, has left
devastation. Some leaders of certain countries have also been
killed. Like on our own continent Muammar Gaddafi was killed
and that has happened over and over again. We are saying this
should be avoided by heeding the warnings.
I read the other day that even as recently as a few years ago
Condoleezza Rice who was like the national security advisor to
the President of the Unites States actually warned that a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 17
further expansion of NATO towards the east would just cause a
great deal of instability and havoc. Leading international
specialist like Hendrik Tiesinga and many others have warned
about this happening over many years. This has now happened to
the Ukraine and we are saying that we need to look at
everything in context. We need to look at the history but we
also need to be saying that we want everyone to remember what
the history teaches us as we engage in dialogue and
negotiations so that we can avoid this.
Obviously, Russia has felt that this is a national existential
threat to them and Obviously no one desires war, as I have
said, and we want peace, negotiation and dialogue. I firmly
believe that that is the only weapon and instrument that
should be used to resolve conflicts. War doesn’t. sanctions
don’t. various actions that can be embarked upon either than
dialogue and negotiation don’t. and it is for this reason that
our stand is very clear as South Africa that negation,
dialogue and mediation is what we are calling for. This
message, I believe, is sinking in in the ears of a number of
other people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Question 2:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 18
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, as South Africa
works to recover from the damaging effects of the COVID-19
pandemic, our economy is confronted by several other
inflationary pressures. The most immediate of these pressures
is the sharp increase in the international price of oil and
the price of food as a result of the conflict in Ukraine.
The interconnectedness of the global economy means that no
country will be spared from the effects of the conflict and
its impact on the supply of goods such as oil and wheat. It is
going to affect many countries around the world. Families
across South Africa are already feeling the effects of rising
prices in supermarkets as well as at the petrol pump, and many
are worried about how they will continue to provide for their
families and make ends meet.
We are using all of the levers at our disposal as a government
to cushion South Africans from the effects of the rising cost
of living. It is a major concern to us, that is why
government’s programme of Economic Recovery and Reconstruction
focuses on responding to the immediate needs of poor and
unemployed South Africans.The 2022 Budget extends government’s
support to poor and vulnerable South Africans by allocating an
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 19
average of 52% per cent of consolidated spending to the social
wage over the medium term.
We extended, as we all know, the special COVID?19 social relief
of distress grant for another 12 months, with additional
funding for health, education as well as the Presidential
Employment Stimulus. Increases in all social grants, including
the old age grant, will help poor households to help them
adjust or to some extent be cushioned against the rising food
prices. Given the improvement in revenue collection, government
has proposed R5,2 billion in tax relief to help support the
economic recovery, and to keep money - as the Minister of
Finance has said - in the pockets of tax payers and boost
incentives for youth employment. To address the rising cost of
petrol, the Minister of Finance announced that no increases
will be made to the general fuel levy on petrol and diesel for
2022-23 to provide for some respite from rising costs that are
continuing to go up.
The Department of Mineral Resources and Energy and National
Treasury are reviewing the methodology for the basic fuel
price as well as other regulated components to identify
changes that could reduce the cost of fuel. These is work that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 20
is underway. These changes will be implemented as soon and as
quickly as possible. In short, our fiscal stance will insulate
public finances against the possibility of domestic and
international monetary tightening while simultaneously
supporting households and ordinary taxpayers through higher
allocations to pro-poor spending. It is important to
acknowledge that the South African economy has thus far proved
resilient to external shocks, including the turbulence linked
to the conflict in the Ukraine.
We must also dispel the notion that our economic challenges
were caused by the measures that we implemented to contain the
spread of the coronavirus as well as to save lives. That
notion exists in some quarters. It was the pandemic, and not
the measures that we implemented, that caused a severe shock
to our economy and indeed to all economies across the world.
And we are not an island, and many other economies suffered
exactly what we have been suffering. If we had done nothing in
response to this grave threat, the economy would still have
been disrupted and many more lives would have been lost.
As a result of our collective action to overcome the pandemic,
including the roll-out of vaccines to millions of South
Africans, we have been able to lift all but the most essential
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 21
restrictions. Our task now is to ensure that we remain agile
and move quickly to cushion South Africans from the risk of
higher inflation, to ensure that all are able to meet their
basic needs, and to accelerate our economic recovery. And that
is the direction that we have chosen to take. Thank you, hon
Speaker.
The SPEAKER: The first supplementary question will be asked by
the hon the Leader of the Opposition from the Chamber.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Thank you very much madam
Speaker. Mr President, South Africans face a tough winter,
especially poor South Africans. The price of food, fuel and
electricity are going to increase incredibly steep, and much
faster that any social grants increases - which actually means
that poor South Africans are going to get poorer. Grants will
go up, as you said, by 4,5% next month, but electricity and
fuel prices will go up by more than double that - electricity
by 9,6%, and fuel by 11% ... [Inaudible.] ... corruption and
maladministration of your government. We are really paying
more for petrol than our neighbouring countries Swaziland,
Botswana and Mozambique. They pay R16 a litre and we are
paying R21 a litre. That is the price South Africans are
paying for the corruption and incompetence of government. Food
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 22
prices have also gone up on the back of us, and I am sure
billionaires don’t do their own shopping. But I can tell you
today that cooking oil has gone up by 28%, sugar by 6,6% ...
[Interjections.] ... meat by 8,2%, vegetables by 8,6%, and
pilchards by 5%. This ... [Inaudible.] ... cost R15 in 2015
and now it costs R24. And they going to go up more.
[Interjections.] Mr President ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Mr President, they ...
[Inaudible.] ... that your government can take to alleviate
this. Will you commit today to bring the fuel price down to
R16 by cutting out your levies? You can scrap your sugar tax
and immediately lifting vat on meat and chicken, because that
will bring immediate relief to poor South Africans.
The SPEAKER: Hold on. Order! [Interjections.] Order, Minister
Zulu. Order, Minister. [Interjections.] Okay, hon members ...
[Interjections.] Hon members, order! May I just remind all of
us that this is a very small Chamber, and whatever small
comments or little noise you make, it disrupts everything we
are trying to do here. The President is on the floor right
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 23
now; may I request order in the Chamber. Thank you very much.
The hon the President?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, if the hon member
had listened very carefully to what I said ...
[Interjections.] ... If he had listened carefully, I said, and
the answer was very straight – the answer said, we are
determined to take steps to cushion South Africans to the
various price pressures that our people are facing. And
recently as yesterday, we discussed it also in one of our
Cabinet committees. As a government we are deeply concerned
about the continued rises in prices, particularly arising from
the conflict that is ensuing between Russia and Ukraine.
We are aware, as I said, that food prices are going to go up
but not only for us, but for many other countries around the
world. A number of countries are already positioning
themselves and taking steps to mitigate against the rising
prices, and we are looking at this so you know. We have set up
a committee of Ministers that is going to look at precisely
what the impact of the conflict is going to have on us as
South Africans when it comes to fuel, when it comes to food
prices and all this is being given consideration.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 24
Hon Steenhuisen, I want to thank you for some of the
suggestions that you are putting forward. You are not the only
one who is putting forward suggestions, you have done it in
the most dramatic way today, by bringing a plastic with oil,
food, bread, Lucky Star Pilchards and whatever. Former
Minister Mboweni would have been very delighted with you.
[Laughter.] So, let me thank you for the suggestions that you
are putting forward. A number of other people are coming
forward with suggestions on fuel, as well as on other food
prices. All these are being consideration and as a
compassionate government we will find a way of addressing this
as well. I can assure you that it is not only a concern to
you, but it is also a concern to me as well as my fellow
members of the Cabinet. We have heard as we are hearing other
people. But thank you very much for your suggestions.
The SPEAKER: The second supplementary question will be asked
by the hon J Hermans from the Chamber.
Ms J HERMANS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Given your
comments, Mr President, on our global interconnectedness, and
considering the weakness of the rand relative to the dollar,
and bearing in mind that 80% of global oil sales are traded in
dollars, which largely determines the price of petrol in South
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 25
Africa, one of the world’s stock exporters of oil, Saudi
Arabia have expressed their desire to sell their oil in
Chinese yuan. It will be interesting to see how much that
change, if it happens, will affect our oil prices. Noting
measures, you have already mentioned here today, Mr President,
what additional measures is government working on with social
partners to ensure that the projected increase in fuel prices
will not trickle down to the costs of other foods, leading to
an increase in the costs of living which will very negatively
affect the very poor and marginalised South Africans? Thank
you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: One of the things that we have
decided to do is to consult a number of our stakeholders - our
partners - business, labour and communities and indeed, also
our traditional leaders, precisely about the effects and
impact of this conflict. So, that consultation process is
underway. We are going to be talking quite broadly to a number
of entities or stakeholders. And through the wisdom that they
will put on the table, we would be able to possibly come to an
answer. In the pot will be included even the proposals that Mr
Steenhuisen has put forward.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 26
A number of other people have put forward other proposals –
so, all that will be put together in the consultation process
that is going to ensue. Now, we have heard that there is a
suggestion that the trading currency for oil and all that
should be the one –we have not given that consideration. It
has always been traded in dollars and with the exchange rate
between our rand and the dollar, sometimes our rand is weak
and sometimes it strengthens. So, we haven’t formed a view on
the one, and it’s a proposal that we have heard about and it
is something that will need to be addressed.
Having said that, our concern obviously as stated earlier is
the rising prices that are going to impact negatively on our
people. We are very much alive to that, and we will want to
ensure that we secure the livelihoods of our people as much as
we possibly can, in ways that are also affordable for us as a
government and as a country. So, all these will be given
consideration, and I am sure that we will come to correct
decisions that will be able to address the needs of our
people. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: The third supplementary question will be asked by
the hon Swart.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 27
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, much of what
you have covered already relates to the fuel price which I was
going to ask you, but may I add one or two suggestions as
well. Research on the fuel price regulation has found that a
combination of regulatory amendments as you have pointed out
can reduce the petrol price by up to R103 per litre. And this
include amendments to the international component which you
pointed out as proposed by the department as way back in 2018
and was never implemented. So, that is one aspect that I am
pleased you referred to and which will be considered.
Secondly, almost dramatically ironic, in view of the war in
Russia and Ukraine, the commodities prices will increase,
which could result in a further tax windfall, which could
further cushion the fiscus and allow for a consideration for
reduction in the tax levies of the fuel price. I would like to
ask you, President, you indicated that this review would take
place as soon as possible, but would you prevail upon the
Ministers to consider this and then obviously try to apply for
this or decide on this issue as quickly as possible, given the
impact that the fuel has? Thank you, President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I would
be able to give the hon Swart a fairly easy and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 28
straightforward answer and say, yes, we will seek to prevail
on the Ministers to consider this as well because this is
another dimension that needs to be looked at and I certainly
would want every aspect of this whole issue to be addressed as
much as we possibly can. But I would like to thank you once
again for the suggestion. It would be taken up.
The SPEAKER: The last supplementary question will be asked by
the hon Maotwe.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, Speaker. President,
about 44% of the population is unemployed, and over 70% of the
youth population is unemployed in this country that you are
leading. The level of unemployment was at crisis level even
before COVID-19 struck. Despite this stark reality, we have
seen numeral attempts by your government to reduce
dramatically the role of the state in facilitating
development. State-owned companies have all collapsed, there
is no significant infrastructure development programme that
can catalyse employment creation, instead you have ...
[Inaudible.] ... all your private companies to create jobs and
lift South Africa out of the mess it is in. In your reading of
economic history and of socioeconomic degeneration by handing
over the responsibility of developing their countries to the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 29
private sector, why do you think this strategy will work here
if it has never worked anywhere else? I thank you, Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I don’t
want to refer any member to some of inputs that I made in this
august House but if the hon member remembers the state of the
nation address’ debate and my reply thereto, we stated very
clearly that yes, we would like to create a conducive
environment to enable those who create 70% of the job pool in
our country to create those jobs. At the same time, the state
will continue playing its role. Now, it isn’t true that for
instance, our infrastructure plans are amounting to zero.
We have come here and the Minister of Public Works and
Infrastructure has been to this House and outlined the
infrastructure plans that we are putting in place. How we are
dealing the incapabilities of the past to make sure that our
ability to roll out infrastructure and to attract investment
pays the dividend that we want. And a number of projects of an
infrastructure type are already underway, and many more are
going to follow.
Already just this year, we are going to be rolling out
infrastructure projects worth about R96 billion and we have
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 30
already set up our infrastructure fund which already has money
in it and the private sector has demonstrated very keen
interest to participate. And similarly, the public enterprises
that we have are also going to be rolling out their own
infrastructure plans, as in Transnet, the Passenger Rail
Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and a number of others are
going to be embarking on mega infrastructure projects. All
those will in the end create jobs, but the most jobs are
created by small and medium enterprises.
In other countries, small and medium enterprises create up to
60% or 65% of the jobs. Our country is still low and that is
why we are seeking to create an environment in which this
engine of growth can actually come into its own and create
jobs. At the same time, we as the state will continue playing
the role that we are and it is for this reason that we focus
on youth employment through the Presidential Employment
Stimulus which already, just last year, succeeded in bringing
in 6 000 mostly young people and women into the job situation.
That is the role that we see ourselves continuing to play.
Already, we have said that we are going to assist and support
250 000 small-scale farmers because we see agriculture as
another sector that can create well over a million jobs. So,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 31
all those efforts are underway, and it isn’t true that we are
not doing anything on the job creation side. Yes, it continues
to be a heavy burden. Many more people are joining the ranks
of the unemployed, that is why we are focusing on how we can
bring young people into the world of work. And I believe that
we will succeed. COVID-19 did not serve us well, it just
exacerbated the situation.
Almost 2 million people lost their jobs because a number of
companies and not only in our own country, but in many other
countries, had to close down. They went bankrupt and they
didn’t find markets for their goods and services. So, all that
needs to be taken into account as we analyse the situation
that we are in. But government is not sitting on its laurels,
we are doing everything that we can to try and address the
situation. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Question 3:
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the outgoing National Commissioner
of the SA Police Service, General Khehla Sitole, and I have
been in communication over some time about matters that led to
the mutual agreement on the early termination of his contract.
Now, these discussions were, therefore, not related to the
crime statistics for October to December 2021, but were
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 32
instead guided by what would be in the best interests of the
country as we said in the statement. The latest crime
statistics reflect the huge task we face as a society to
combat crime and violence. These statistics show improvements
in some areas, but they also show reversals in other areas.
Between October to December 2020, and the same period in 2021,
for example, there was a 9% increase in murders and a 14%
increase in car hijackings. At the same time, there was a 9%
drop in sexual offences and an 8% decline in burglaries and
other property-related crimes.
While these quarterly statistics are important for tracking
crime trends and informing our responses, the reality is that
crime remains stubbornly high in our country. This reality
reminds us that reducing crime is a responsibility that all of
us need to shoulder – as the police, as political leaders, as
communities, as families, as business people, as workers and
as civil society. The recruitment of 12 000 additional police
officers, among other measures to strengthen the police, will
help us to turn the tide and create safer communities for all.
Hon Malema knows that when the President appoints or releases
his Ministers, he does not consult the public. It is the
President’s decision, and let it remain like that. [Applause.]
I thank you, hon Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 33
Mr J S MALEMA: Thank you very much, Speaker and Mr President.
Any responsible President will know that even when you have to
power to appoint Ministers, you do so in the best interests of
our people. It is not a power that you just go around
flaunting without exercising it in a rational manner. No one
has ever questioned your capacity or constitutional powers to
appoint any Cabinet. With this power that you go around, you
know, displaying and not using it correctly, Ayanda Ngila of
Abahlali baseMjondolo has been killed. Eight people killed in
one day in Khayelitsha, more eight in Manenberg and many other
people are killed on daily basis, Mr president, and not this
time around not only in the townships. We’ve seen Professor
Mohamed Tayob, University of Limpopo Professor being killed.
Heavy Pablo being killed. We’ve seen a club owner, Don Ejeh, a
Nigerian citizen, the owner of Black Door Club in Sandton
being kidnapped daylight in the suburbs.
They are no longer even hiding. They are now shooting people
on daylight in front of cameras. They no longer wear
balaclavas and they don’t hide. Reason being that there’s no
policing in South Africa and there is no visible policing in
all suburbs and townships of South Africa. Now, the problem is
that you have taken a person who was a commissioner and you
made him a Minister. Therefore, because he has got competing
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 34
interest of being a commissioner, at the same time being a
Minister, he interferes with the powers of commissioners. I
can guarantee you now, you can appoint any commissioner you so
wish, the most capable person in your life, any one that you
regard as the most capable person you can appoint that person.
That person will never succeed. Whether you take Sydney
Mufamadi there or not to be a commissioner, as long as Bheki
Cele is the Minister ... [Interjections.] ... inspired in
crime. What is that you are so scared about hon Bheki Cele, so
much that you are prepared to allow our people to die like
flies because you want to satisfy political expediency. What
is it that if you think he possess a lot of support in
KwaZulu-Natal which you think ... [Interjections.] ... why
can’t you redeploy him to another department and give us a
capable Minister to fight crime in this country? Crime is the
nightmare, Mr President. Stop telling us that you’ve got the
power to appoint Ministers. We know that, but exercise it to
the benefit of our people. What you are talking about we know
it, but for as long as ... [Interjections.] ... it becomes
useless.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema! Hon member, this is a statement,
please raise you question. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 35
Mr J S MALEMA: I asked a question, hon Speaker. What is it
that he is so scared of hon Bheki Cele to a point where he is
prepared to compromise the lives our ... [Interjections.]
Sepedi:
Wena “Chicco-hairstyle” o thomile man!
The SPEAKER: Order! There is only one Chair presiding at the
moment.
IsiZulu:
Mama awume kancane.
English:
Thank you very much. The hon the President! Hon members, will
you please take note of what I have raised earlier on. This
Chamber is very small. Whatever it is, the little that you do,
actually distracts everybody. Just stop it. We have to stop
it, hon member, and behave like the adults and the leaders of
our parties’ representatives of our people here in this
Chamber. Thank you very much. The hon the President!
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Malema was very
eloquent in describing the situation that we find ourselves in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 36
from a criminality point of view. And he touched on important
issues like visible policing and that criminals are now so
brazen and so bold as to be able to embark on criminal
activity in broad daylight. Therefore, if you listened very
carefully to my state of the nation address and also my
reference now to saying that the steps that we are going to
take to strengthen the police service by also bringing in up
to 12 000 new police recruits, you would have realised that we
are taking steps to address this challenge. Visible policing
is a challenge and by bringing in more police we will be able
to urge more and more towards having police being visible so
that they can execute their task of dealing with those who
want to perpetrate acts of criminality.
Of course, what we have said over time is that our population
has risen and over time we have not lifted the numbers of our
policemen and women in tandem with the rising population.
Therefore, the ratio between citizens and the police has
lessened quite a lot or increased quite a lot on the wrong
side and we, therefore, need to bring that into line and make
sure that we have sufficient number of police. But, also to
increase their own capability and this is one of the measures
that we are taking to improve the security situation in the
country so that South Africans can feel safe. He wants to know
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 37
what as President I am scared of doing a whole number of
things.
Sesotho:
Ke re Letona, ha o Letona wena Malema. [Ditsheho.] Ba re ke o
kenye ke o etse Letona...
English:
... no, no, no, Malema no, does not want to be a Minister ...
Sesotho:
O batla ho ba Mokgatlo wa kganyetso ho seng jwalo e be
Mopresidente. Jwale, o tla tshwanela hore a emele yona nako
yeo.
English:
However, all I can say is that, hon Malema, I’ve heard what
you have said, but I fear fokkol.
Sesotho:
Ha ke tshabe letho.
English:
Thank you, hon Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 38
Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSON: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Thank you very much, hon President and hon members. If hon
Malema is looking for another midnight Cabinet reshuffle, he
is speaking to the wrong President ... [Laughter.] ...
Therefore, hon President, you announced in your state of the
nation address that the number of changes will be made in the
security agencies to strengthen our security structures.
Congratulations, you have done exactly this. Therefore, what
additional measures, hon President, will your government be
undertaking in the entire criminal justice system to ensure
the effectiveness and efficiency in dealing with crime and
fighting corruption? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Joemat-Petterson,
yes, we are taking measures. Security situation in our country
is challenged and everyone is concerned about the lapses,
about the problems that beset our security complex and we are
taking measures. Firstly, as I said in the state of the nation
address that we would be bringing in people changing the guard
in the number of entities and it is the entirety of the
criminal justice system that we are reforming. Therefore, the
reform is also going to be in line with policy or strategy
that is going to be put in place to ensure that we do have a
better handle on the security situation in the country.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 39
It has been raised by members, including by yourself, hon
Joemat-Petterson, in your discussions with me and this is a
matter that we are addressing and the changes that you have
already seen and many more will be coming. We will ensure that
the security of our country is placed in a much better
position. Now, a number of events that have happened in our
country of a criminal nature as well as of an unrest nature
are matters of great concern to all of us. As for the police
themselves, they’re already doing a quite great deal of work,
setting up special units, for instance, for the construction
mafia. Those who seek to hijack building projects, special
unit is being set up. The special unit that focuses on bank
heist or the heist of money vehicles, we have already seen
great successes in that regard.
In the mining sector great deal of work is being done. On
cable theft we are working with the private sector to focus on
all that and a whole range of other areas where people who
want to participate in criminal activity have been busy and
disrupting and making the country unstable, we are focusing on
that. I am very confident that we are going to see great
progress as we move forward. However, thank you very much for
continuing to raise these issues, hon Joemat-Petterson. Thank
you, hon Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 40
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Thank you, Mr President.
When you reshuffle your Cabinet the last time, you said, and I
quote:
We are determined to build a capable state to be able
lead and which effectively serves the needs of the
people.
However, look at the crime statistics. Look at what is on
their reports. Look at the July riots report which says that
your poverty Ministers must take some blame. But, you always
go after the directors-general, DGs, or the officials, never
the poverty Cabinet. Too big, too incompetent, and too corrupt
to get the job done. Where are your ... [Inaudible.] ...
performance ... [Inaudible.] ... Cabinet Ministers? Nowhere.
Where are your lifestyle audit for Cabinet Ministers? Nowhere.
You protect your poverty Cabinet even though they have stopped
protecting citizens. You can’t pity poverty with the poverty
Cabinet. Mr President, you took an oath of office to put South
Africans first. Therefore, the question that I must ask you
today is why won’t you take action against Ministers who are
crooked, corrupt or indifference? Thank you. [Applause.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 41
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. Processes that we get
involved in, in strengthening the capacity of the state have
to be overarching, they have to be focused and we have to look
at every aspect of the work that we do. Therefore, I have put
together a team of people who have demonstrated over time that
they have a number of competencies and capabilities. Of
course, what I do know as a politician in South Africa is that
we always don’t agree. We differ on a whole range of issues
including on who should be appointed to whatever position.
Therefore, I do know that whenever I make an appointment which
if I’m constitutionally entitled to make, there will be those
who will have different views. You know we live in a free
country, and people are entitled to have different views. We
are entitled to see things differently and that is a beauty of
our constitutional architecture. Therefore, in this regard, we
do have differences of approach and of opinion, and it is not
that I don’t take council from even members of the opposition.
I do and I do listen and I do take into account what is being
said.
However, we must also agree and accept that there are points
where we may differ even about policy matters, about the
capability of people, be the directors-general, be the
Ministers and what a view. In the end you are absolutely
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 42
right, I took an oath that I will put South Africa first. And
this is precisely what I always seek to do - South Africa
first. Now, we may even differ on that because some of you may
think that, no, I don’t put South Africa first, I put myself
first, I put whoever first, and so on and so on. However, my
commitment to the Republic cannot be questioned. I am
irrevocably pro South Africa and I put this country forward.
Thank you for your ... [Inaudible.] Thank you, hon Speaker.
[Applause.]
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, you
are quite correct, it’s your prerogative to appoint your
executive and I respect that. However, I personally think that
part of the problem in the police is that your Minister of
Police was a former Commissioner of Police although he had no
experience as a police person, and I will come to that with my
next question. On 16 of August 2012, we had the Marikana
situation, the post-94 sample situation in South Africa. The
Farlam Commission was appointed to look into that matter and
he made various recommendations and I want to quote to you,
only two of them. It says the executive should not make any
operational decisions for the police. If they give guidance
there should be properly recorded. It also says operational
decisions should only be made by an officer that has a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 43
necessary training skills and experience specifically in
Public Order Policing.
Now, hon President, my follow-up question is, the person,
Minister of Police, he wants to also make certain operational
decisions. That’s where there was a problem created. Now, my
question is, did you implement any of the Farlam Commission’s
recommendations? If not, why not, if so, was there any effect
to record any recommendations from the Minister as far as
operational issues are concerned? Thank you, hon President.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. The Farlam Commission
made a number of recommendations, and a number of them have
been implemented. That one that you cite and which really,
really is heard, particularly during the July unrest is the
Public Order Policing one which we have admitted, we never
really sort of increased the number of Public Order Police and
also their direct training. At that one I think we have said
that we have not implemented in full. Now, you want to know
and you are obviously putting forward an opinion that the
Minister interferes in operational matters. It is an opinion.
He is the political head. Ministers are political heads.
Therefore, the reason we have directors-general it’s because
the directors-general, apart from being appointed by Cabinet,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 44
are in the end finally signed off by the President. They are
appointed because they have a speciality in the areas that
they are pointed to.
Therefore, they are the accounting officers need to take
responsibility and accountability for the running of the
department. The Minister is an oversight official or a person
who should ensure that policy is made and policy is
implemented. So, those processes are processes that we often
want to see adhered to. So, your opinion, therefore, is that
no, there is interference and I think sometimes, yes, there
can be struggling of the lanes, but we always through various
even the performance agreements that we have signed want to
make sure that there is adherence to a policy side, to the
oversight side and leave the running of the department to
those people who been appointed to do that. And that is a
process, hon Groenewald, that we want to continue engendering
even as we move forward. However, your views have been heard.
Thank you very much.
Question 4:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, a central pillar
of government’s programme is to grow the economy and create
employment. We have taken far-reaching measures to unleash the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 45
potential of our economy, focusing particularly on small
businesses, micro businesses and informal businesses. This
includes reducing the cost of doing business and removing
barriers to entry for small businesses.
South Africa does not lack an entrepreneurial spirit.
Entrepreneurship is abundant in our country. Our people are
brimming with wonderful ideas – ideas about starting
businesses, running businesses, creating products and
providing services. We also have abundant talent, the
requisite energy and creativity in our country. There are many
entrepreneurs who are ready and willing to start their own
businesses.
I had occasion just last weekend to be in Mafikeng and I met a
horde of young people who are creating unbelievable gadgets –
stuff that one would never have thought would be created by
these young people. One of them just blew my mind - because I
am a farmer – had created a gadget that tests your soil and
immediately tells you what you can plant in a particular soil
and what you need to input in terms of fertiliser, and so
forth, in the soil. All of this is being done by our young
people. The innovation centres that are being set up around
our country enable them to do precisely that. We do have
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 46
talent, we do have energy, and all we need to do is to unlock
that energy.
Too often, however, these entrepreneurs are frustrated by
excessive regulation and work under a massive burden of
compliance. The compliance process in our country is just too
overbearing. It just drowns you. In order to start a business,
to run a business, you have to do so many compliance measures
that you immediately just feel discouraged.
It is for this reason that I announced in the state of the
nation address that we would create dedicated capacity in the
Presidency to reduce red tape, with a team led by Mr Sipho
Nkosi to do precisely that. Already the planning and the ideas
that are coming forward are the types that are going to do
precisely that.
The focus is not only going to be on small and medium
enterprises, SMEs. It is going to be on looking at a variety
of areas where the strictures of the red tape are not allowing
South Africans to move forward. This team will identify
priority reforms and work with other departments and agencies
to simplify regulatory processes and unlock specific obstacles
to investment and business growth.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 47
This focus will build on existing work undertaken by other
departments, be it by the Department of Trade, Industry and
Competition, by the Department of Small Business Development
and, indeed, by a number of other departments like
Infrastructure Build, Water and Sanitation and many others.
Focus areas in 2022 should include the work that is being done
with the SA Revenue Services, Sars, to improve the turnaround
times for processing things like VAT refunds for SMEs,
reviewing onerous licensing requirements that make it
difficult to start and operate a business, making it easier
for SMEs to do business with the state, and working with
private and government funding institutions to also make it
easier for SMEs to access the credit needed to operate and
grow their businesses. I have made it clear that our job is to
enable businesses, not to stifle them.
In addition to these measures, the Department of Small
Business Development and other public institutions, such as
the National Youth Development Agency, will continue to
provide funding and support to SMEs.
The Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, will continue
to establish new incubators and digital hubs that provide a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 48
broad range of business development support to SMEs and co-
operatives particularly in underserved areas.
This will include centres for entrepreneurship and the rapid
incubators in institutions of higher learning to foster a
culture of entrepreneurship among young people and students,
and to convert job seekers into job creators.
The Small Enterprise Development Agency has also developed the
Basic Entrepreneurship Skills Development Programme, which is
funded by the National Skills Fund. This programme uses
coaching to facilitate and reinforce learning and development
support for emerging entrepreneurs. This shows that we are
focusing on engendering an entrepreneurial spirit in our
nation. More than 2 000 emerging entrepreneurs have, to date,
been supported through the programme.
Through our Youth Challenge Fund, we aim to support 10 000
young innovators over the next year, particularly the type
that I met in Mafikeng who are full of ideas and want to
create things.
We are implementing a programme to support entrepreneurship in
schools, called “Step-up to a Start-up”, which encourages
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 49
learners to consider entrepreneurship as an alternative career
to employment. The programme aims to equip learners with
entrepreneurial knowledge and skills needed to start and
manage their own businesses. Of course, they still need to get
into some form of employment so that they can learn the skills
needed, but if they were imbued with entrepreneurial training
right from a school level the future could be brighter for
them.
By making it easier for small businesses to grow, by expanding
access to finance and support and by reaching out to young
would-be entrepreneurs, we are determined to unleash this
potential. And, as I have said, there is great potential
amongst South Africans. All we need to do is to create that
conducive environment for them to be able to thrive.
Wherever I go I find that many South Africans want to run
their own small, medium and big businesses. What we now need
to do as the government is to encourage that spirit of
entrepreneurship among South Africans, so that they can get on
and create jobs and create better livelihoods for themselves
and for their families. This is what our country needs and
this is what we are committed to doing. Thank you, hon
Speaker. [Applause.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 50
The SPEAKER: The first supplementary question will be asked by
the hon F Jacobs from the Chamber, but I see a hand there. I
don’t know whether it is a point of order. What is it?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, indeed it is a point of order.
You’ll pardon me for delaying in raising this matter. Firstly,
I didn’t want to disturb the President and the people asking
follow-up questions; and, secondly, I had to find out from
first-language Afrikaans speakers whether the word “fokkol”
was parliamentary. They confirmed that, indeed, it is not
parliamentary. You would recall that when the President
responded to a follow-up question by the hon Julius Malema, he
said he fears “fokkol”. It would be ...
IsiXhosa:
... hayi thulani, andizi kuyiyeka le nto ndiyithethayo.
[Kwahlekwa.]
English:
It would be a sad day, Speaker, if the word “fokkol” entered
the lexicon of Parliament because the President used it here.
This is because MPs will use it in future and you will not be
able to call them to order.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 51
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I will consult and just
make sure that “My Afrikaans is reg.”
Mr F JACOBS: Hon Speaker, we appreciate the priority reforms
His Excellency the President outlined. Indeed, small business
is everybody’s business. Given market concentration and the
perception of bullying, how will we encourage the greater
private sector and especially big business to support, nurture
and grow the informal sector, the emerging sector and small
businesses?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, maybe to save you
from going through Hansard, I am willing, prepared and able to
say that as soon as I used that word ... I almost said ...
Madam Speaker, I shouldn’t have said that. So, to save you the
trouble, hon member, cancel it and maybe just say “niks”.
[Laugher.] “Niks” is an Afrikaans word as well. [Applause.]
[Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr President. You saved me from having
to ...
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, I withdraw. [Laughter.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 52
The SPEAKER: Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Do you want me to say that I am
withdrawing “fokkol”? [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Mr President, you may proceed.
Mr S N SWART: Hon Speaker ... Hon Speaker, point of order.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBIC: He wants me to say that I am
withdrawing “fokkol”. So it means I withdraw nothing.
[Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Mr Swart, you have the floor.
Mr S N SWART: Hon Speaker, may I attribute that to the lack of
medication the President referred to earlier this morning?
[Laughter.] At the beginning, the President referred to a
possible lack of medication. So we appreciate the withdrawal.
Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Swart. The hon President
...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 53
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, it must be the
lack of the right medication.
Mr J S MALEMA: Point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: There is a point of order on the virtual
platform.
Mr J S MALEMA: Under which Rule did the hon Swart just stand
to the point where we even recognised him and accepted his
input? Which Rule is that?
The SPEAKER: No, no, no. Hon Malema ... [Interjections.] Hold
on, hon members. I have not requested you to respond to what
the hon Malema has said. I am responding to the hon Malema.
Hon Malema, earlier on, before the hon Swart, the hon Kwankwa
could not raise a point of order. I don’t know whether the
microphones are off or not, but he did try to indicate that he
used “action” to show me that he wanted to speak, and I
allowed him to speak.
The same applied to the hon Swart. When he stood I knew what
that meant. I even asked if that was on a point of order. He
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 54
said yes and I allowed him to speak. So, please, hon member,
what is important is that I don’t want people to start
screaming here and call for points of order. At least he
indicated that he would like to speak and I afforded him that
opportunity, which is the same thing I did for the hon
Kwankwa.
Mr J S MALEMA: Under which Rule was hon Swart standing?
Kwankwa’s point of order was in order. If the hon Swart was
standing in terms of the point of order Rule, then you have to
make a ruling. Because it can’t be that people are out of
order when they say things that you don’t like. But when they
say things that you do like – even when they are not in order
– you allow that to pass. It becomes a circus. It is no longer
Parliament which operates within the Rules.
The SPEAKER: Okay, hon Malema. I have taken note of the point
you have raised. I now request the hon President to proceed.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, there is a role to
be played by all in the private sector, particularly by medium
and, I would say, big business, to help small and informal
enterprises and to do so in a variety of ways through the
supply chain. In doing so, they could also help support,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 55
strengthen and mentor those who are in small, medium and
informal businesses.
Doing that would, in a way, increase the eco system within the
business sector and particular sectors of the economy. The
private sector would then be able to create more entrepreneurs
in our country instead of continuing just to rely on the same
old ones that they have always used. This is also of a
transformational nature. Transformation would be best served
by getting those who were previously prevented from
participating, particularly women and young people, into
business.
Now, I would argue that big business would be doing themselves
a great favour through their enterprise development
initiatives to support women; to ensure that the procurement
processes tilt towards supporting women and those who have
been previously disadvantaged and prevented from participating
in these businesses.
In that way, we create a wholesome process in which everyone
knows that they are welcome to participate and in which we
actually ensure that the cake that we bake is much bigger and
everyone then benefits. That is the way our country should be
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 56
growing. It is for this reason that I call on big business to
support the emergence of new, small, informal and medium
enterprises and to give them work through procurement, through
mentorship, through real support – financial and otherwise –
as well as through implements and machinery so that they are
able to get up and going.
So, if we can all do that, that would be a great help. It also
goes beyond just that. The financial institutions themselves
need to participate in this, so that banks and other financial
institutions also find ways of reducing their very, very
complex and difficult requirements and enable small and medium
enterprises to participate and also see how the guarantee
system of the process that we have put in place can be of
great assistance.
I think, through this, Madam Speaker, we would be creating an
environment that could enable small and medium enterprises to
thrive. This should not be government’s responsibility alone.
It should be our collective responsibility.
Educational institutions also have a role to play. I would
like to see more and more universities increasing disciplines
and courses for small and medium enterprises, so that people
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 57
can learn various skills even if they are ... [Inaudible.] ...
skills – financial, management and manufacturing capabilities
and all that. So it is through this that we will be able to
create a wonderful, growing economy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon
President, tonight is the holiest night for Muslims to say
prayers and these prayers are always accepted. We pray for the
Cabinet, for you and for this House.
Creating an entrepreneurial psyche, Your Excellency, is a
revolutionary demand by the Whip of the small business
portfolio committee on which I also serve. I got an award as
one of the pioneers ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Paulnita Marais ... Hon Paulnita, please. You
may proceed, hon Hendricks.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: I was awarded the “Pioneer of the Internet
in South Africa” award in 2002. The entrepreneurial spinoff of
my initiative created millions of jobs and opportunities in
South Africa. So, had I not been with an entrepreneurial
psyche, like the Whip referred to, hon President, you and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 58
South Africans may have had to wait longer to get into the
Fourth Industrial Revolution.
We now need the government to be the pioneer. Your Excellency,
are you prepared to crack the whip? There are 10 000 villages
in South Africa. I have a constituency which covers 10 of
them. What assistance can you give to me to connect these
villages to the cities and the outside world so that they can
... [Inaudible.] ... compliant and become, for example, call
centres doing work for over 40 government departments and,
potentially, even to the South African corporate sector and in
time for overseas customers too? Any such assistance would
connect my constituency not only to jobs, but also to training
and development and for some to have the opportunity to even
start their own small online businesses? There are no
innovation centres, incubators or digital hubs in our
villages.
We want to know whether the hon President would visit, for
example, Mpame Village which has an ocean with 13 kinds of
fish and a forest with the straightest trees ...
The SPEAKER: Question, hon Hendricks. Please state your
question.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 59
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: ... if you cannot make it ... those who he
would direct will leave with a basket of fish. So the question
is: What support are you going to give our villages which are
the Cinderellas in South Africa?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I would be very,
very pleased to visit that village and enjoy what he said were
the different kinds of fish that it has. I would want him to
guide me there. Thank you very much for your prayers for the
Cabinet and for the government. We always welcome them. Thank
you also for the prayers, I guess, for Members of Parliament.
They should not just be for the Cabinet, but should include
the hon Steenhuisen here. He needs prayers as well. [Laugher.]
[Applause.]
I should say, hon Speaker, that one of the major projects that
we have is SA Connect. It is through SA Connect that we want
and are going to be connecting the various parts of our
country. It is a massive project that government has decided
to embark upon, so that everyone in South Africa is able to
have a measure of connection to the internet – be online, do
business online, learn online and do a whole variety of
things.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 60
As it is now, not many areas in our country are connected and
that is a matter of concern to us. We would like to see as
many parts of our country as possible – particularly villages
– being connected. SA Connect is a project that we are going
to unfold so that it envelopes the whole country. I’m
confident that through this we will be able to catapult our
country into the 4IR scenario so that people are able to
converse, to communicate, to do business, to learn – to learn
also what is happening in other parts of the world, and to
trade as well.
We have found that when people are connected, they are then
able to trade in an exponential manner. That has been proven
over and over, and that is precisely what we would like to do.
So, SA Connect is the answer to the hon member’s question.
Thank you, hon Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, the lockdown is
actually the single biggest piece of red tape tying up our
economic recovery. The real disaster in South Africa is the
jobs and the poverty disaster caused by your poverty Cabinet,
which is a permanent disaster and, frankly, beyond prayer.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 61
International tourism now is only 20% of what it was before
COVID-19. The tourism industry used to drive 10% of job
creation in South Africa. Tourists are now going to countries
where they don’t have to do expensive PCR tests, they don’t
have to wear masks and they are able to go to stadiums to
watch sports functions.
Covid regulations are strangling government service delivery
as well and many places are still operating on reduced or
rotational staff. The biggest amount of people suffering from
this are the poor who rely on government services more.
Mr President, you told us right from the beginning that you
have been led by science. Severe illness rates are now low and
hospitals are not overflowing with COVID-19 cases, so how do
you justify keeping South Africa’s economy on its knees by
extending the state of disaster and now legislating a lockdown
into permanence? Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the hon
Steenhuisen would remember me standing here in the City Hall
saying that we were going to lift the state of disaster. We
are at level 1. I explained very carefully that there are
certain measures that we will need to keep under management to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 62
enable us to have the wherewithal to keep, if you like, a tab
on the pandemic.
The pandemic is still here with us. COVID-19 has not suddenly
just disappeared through the door or the window. We are still
concerned about those people who get infected, who get
hospitalised and who die. We are concerned about those people
who have not been vaccinated yet. All of this needs to be
properly managed by a responsible government.
Now, what have I said? I said: We are now going to want to
rely on health measures. Health measures, for instance, that
will say that if you are in an enclosed space like this where
this is no proper ventilation, you are still required to wear
a mask. You cannot just breathe that into existence; you have
to regulate it. And this has to be regulated by a legal
instrument, a law, a regulation.
What we have said we would do is that we would move away from
the harder state of disaster regulation to a health one,
because we are dealing with a health pandemic, a pandemic that
affects our health as a whole. That requires a regulation so
that when we are gathered like this, the Speaker should be
able to say, as she does all the time – unless you are
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 63
speaking – “Wear your mask.” She needs an instrument to be
able to direct us to wear that mask.
This is a health regulation that we have now put in place. If
you have a problem with that, I am sorry. We are government so
we have to put regulations in place. [Applause.] As the
opposition, you have a different view, but you are not
government. [Interjections.] No. Our scientists are telling us
precisely this.
I can admit that you have always had problem, from day 1. Day
1. Right from the word go. If you were ever positive, hon
Steenhuisen, it was at one meeting when I called the political
parties. It was the only time. Beyond that, it was saying,
“You don’t need the state of disaster.”
We kept on saying that we are led by science and we have heard
some of the leading scientists which you differ from. That is
your freedom. You are entitled to differ, even with
scientists. We have been guided by those scientists. You can
shout as much as you’d like, but we, as government, act in the
interests of South Africans. [Applause.] And that is why they
elected us.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 64
We are being very careful, because there is nothing about
killing jobs by saying that people should wear a mask in a
room like this. Really! It defies logic. It really defies
logic. How are we killing jobs? In fact, we are creating jobs,
because there are people who make these masks. There are new
factories that have come up that make masks so that we can all
feel safe.
For the life of me, I still want someone to come and tell me
what it is that we are destroying jobs through by continuing
with these health measures. [Interjections.] This is because
when we lived ... Listen to me.
Mr J S MALEMA: By closing stadiums, you are killing jobs. By
closing stadiums, you are killing jobs. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, allow me just to ... [Inaudible.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Point of order.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We have been going through a
process. Let me tell you something. Many countries around the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 65
world are exactly where we are. The countries that have opened
up their stadia to 100% participation have a 70%, 80%
vaccination rate.
We’ve been saying, and I have saying this ad nauseam, let us
all as leaders participate in encouraging our people to
vaccinate. [Applause.] I am yet to see and to hear leaders in
the opposition benches talking about vaccination – going to
the people on the ground and getting people vaccinated.
Instead, they talk against vaccination, and all they talk
about is precisely what is being said here. I don’t buy into
that. I am afraid to say, but we have done everything to
manage this pandemic. The interests of our people when it
comes to lives and their livelihoods have been my greatest
preoccupation for the better part of the last two years. And,
as I have said, I want to see the state of disaster coming to
an end. But I am not going to be reckless. I am not going to
be reckless. [Applause.]
I am going to be orderly. I am going to be orderly, and in
days I am going to address the nation and explain precisely
where we are headed to and how we should traverse this new
route that we are taking. We will outline this precisely.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 66
The health regulations have been published, and there are
processes that we are engaged in and we are engaging with
various leaders and so on. We have met traditional leaders. We
have met various other leaders and we have met religious
leaders, talking precisely about this.
I can assure you, again, hon Steenhuisen, we are going to lift
the state of disaster ... soon. And we are going to put in
place health regulations, regulations that will enable
everyone to feel safe, but, at the same time, we want to boost
vaccination.
We also go through a lot of consultations internationally. A
number of countries have told us that they reached an
inflection point of vaccination at about 43%, 44% - where we
are now, where the resistance to vaccination is evident. There
are measures that they have had to take to boost vaccination
to a higher level. That is precisely what we want to embark
upon.
I want to rely on political party leaders here to join us in
the process of increasing the level of vaccination in our
country. I therefore want to hear you, vocally, speak about
it, because I have not heard that. This is about the lives of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 67
South Africans. Let us all work together and ensure that our
people get vaccinated in their hundreds and millions. Thank
you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: The last supplementary question will be asked by
the hon ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, on a point of order: The President
was not telling the truth that leaders from opposition parties
have not called for vaccinations. What we have said is that we
don’t want to be imposed upon with Western vaccinations. We
are not spokespeople for Johnson & Johnson and Pfizer.
Approved vaccines from ...
The SPEAKER: Ai, but you are discussing now. You are making
... No, no, no. [Interjections.] Hon Shivambu, that is not a
point of order. You are advancing your own arguments on the
matter. Please, hon member! If it is a point of order, make
your point of order. If it is an engagement on the matter
under discussion, then you find time to do so. For now, that
is not a point of order, I’m sorry. Thank you very much, hon
Shivambu. The last supplementary question will be asked by the
hon O M C Maotswe.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 68
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, Speaker. President, you
know a leader is clueless and has no idea of what he is
dealing with when he starts by affirming his position. Earlier
on you were telling us that you are the one who appoints
Ministers and then you just said now that you are leading the
government. So this is a sign that you are clueless about this
thing.
But let me go ahead with my question, Speaker. Your attempts
to centralise power in your office, President, are cause for
concern. First, you took over intelligence services and placed
them in your office. Then you took to your office the
responsibilities of co-ordinating the climate change response
by the country from the Department of Environmental Affairs.
Now, cutting red tape for small businesses has been removed
from the Ministry of Small Business Development into your
office.
Have you lost confidence in the ability of your Ministers to
lead the kind of change you want to see in this country? Are
these presidential panels not creating parallel centres of
authority and therefore hindering delivery of services? Thank
you, Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 69
The SPEAKER: Mr President, before you take your stand ...
[Inaudible.] ... withdraw what you said.
An HON MEMBER: I withdraw, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you. I won’t repeat what he said because
that was foul language. Mr President ... the hon the
President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I think the hon
member said what she has said before. All I will say is no;
what we are seeking to do is to increase the capability of the
state. The Presidency plays a particular role in increasing
the capability of the state. Already, we are seeing quite a
lot of progress as a result of some of the measures and
initiatives that we have taken. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Question 5:
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I apologise for speaking before
you gave me permission. Hon Speaker, thank you once again, and
hon members, state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are critical
drivers of inclusive economic growth and social development in
our country. However, the reports released by the Commission
of Inquiry into State Capture demonstrate the extent of the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 70
repurposing, damage and theft caused by state capture. We are
therefore working to reposition strategic SOEs to fulfil their
vital economic and social mandates.
International good practice suggests that a centralised
shareholder model, along with a central authority to house
strategic state-owned companies is the best way to ensure
effective oversight. A centralised shareholder management
model is likely to entail the following: Firstly, a holding
company that is 100% owned by the state; secondly, an active
shareholder approach to continuously set, monitor and evaluate
SOE performance in relation to commercial and development
objectives; thirdly, ensuring commercial sustainability of
SOEs with minimum or no reliance on the fiscus; and lastly,
development of an appropriate capital structure for the
holding company to ensure profitability and sustainability of
each SOE.
Based on the recommendations of Presidential SOE Council,
government is reviewing state ownership policy in terms of
which SOEs need to be owned by the state as well as the extent
thereof. The Presidential SOE Council is evaluating the
financial and operational status of the major SOEs that we
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 71
have in our country and reviewing the turnaround plans for
each SOE in crisis.
The journey that we have embarked on will transform the manner
in which our SOEs are governed, managed and monitored for the
benefit of the nation as a whole. This is a transformation
that is long overdue. It was preceded by a commission that was
set up to look into state-owned enterprises, but now we are
honing into what needs to be done with regard to the
implementation of the commission’s report and also what needs
to be done in this current moment, particularly post-state
capture environment that we are now going to enter into. I
thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, Mr
President, all the aspects which you have attributed to a
holding company, the ... [Inaudible.] ... in particular, are
basic elementary aspects which should arise regardless of the
structure into which government may be wanting to handle and
run SOEs. What is at play here, Mr President, is that this
move to establish yet another SOE is an admission on the part
of your government that the Department of Public Enterprises,
DPE, has been a total failure in managing these SOEs and
should have been abolished a long time ago and have these SOEs
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 72
and their line function departments where the necessary
skills, knowledge and expertise of each sector are housed.
The second point is that without running the risk of another
patronising outlook to say I should listen to you so far as
your responses is concerned, you attribute this to state
capture, yet we are awaiting you to give us the implementation
plan in so far as the Commission into State Capture is
concerned. Are you now in a piecemeal approach on responding
and implementing recommendations of the State Capture
Commission? If you are, then why are we waiting for the end of
June? The bottom line is that we have heard this rhetoric
before and nothing has changed. It is merely a change of names
and semantics. The issue is that government is wholly
inadequately capacitated to manage and run SOEs and the
results can be seen in Eskom, Passenger Rail Agency of SA,
Prasa, and Transet, amongst others, whom are all literally on
their knees and rolling blackouts. To put a plaster on this
sore, isn’t in itself very irresponsible? The bottom line ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Hlengwa, what is your question?
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 73
The SPEAKER: But that was a speech. It was a statement not a
question.
Mr M HLENGWA: The President as at liberty to respond to the
argument I am making against his SOE holding company.
The SPEAKER: Sorry, Mr President, there is a point of order
there. The hon Gwarube.
Ms S GWARUBE: On a point of order. Thank you, Speaker, just to
bring to your attention that the member that asked the follow
up question, that is in their name, they have two minutes to
ask their question. Regardless of how they use their two
minutes, as long as they stick within that two-minute
timeframe. I do just want to bring that to your attention.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Gwarube, your point is
noted. Hlengwa, do you have a question?
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Hlwengwa. The hon, the President.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 74
The PRESIDENT: ... [Laughter.] ... My apologies, hon Speaker,
hon Steenhuisen is distracting me. Maybe, he should not sit so
close to me.
Hon Speaker, I must be frank, I did not decipher a question
from what hon Hlengwa was saying. However, I should maybe want
to comment on some of the issues he put forward. The most
important one was that I thought he wanted to know whether I
was implementing the report on the Commission into State
Capture on a piecemeal basis by coming forward with the
proposition of a holding company to manage our own state-owned
enterprises. I must say that, no, it is not piecemeal
implementation. It stands on its own. Reference to state
capture is about how the state capture report is going to
enrich the process that we need to embark upon to reform our
own state-owned enterprises.
We firmly believe that through having this type of structure,
we will be able to do. If nothing else, what it will do is to
ensure that there is universality and commonality about the
management and the financial discipline across all our state-
owned enterprises and you do that much more effectively
through a holding structure. I can say that in other places,
that’s what they do. They succeeded in Singapore in building
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 75
Temasek, in China, Cosek is exactly what they have done and in
a number of other places. Some have done so through their
sovereign wealth funds and so forth in the way that they have
structured things.
In this case, we are seeking to have uniformity of processes
which are better managed through a single structure. All these
companies will hang on that structure; they will be
subsidiaries. It will also help us as I said in one of the
issues that I mentioned, and balanced sheet management where
we will be able to have a line of sight of what exactly is
happening; from a financial point of view in each of the SOEs,
and synchronise what we have done from a performance point of
view, management point of view, the objectives and the
expectations will be so well set out that we will have one
single view of exactly what is happening. When reporting comes
in, it will be globular reporting, which enables us to see
everything on one sheet of paper. That is going to be the
strength of what we are seeking to do.
There will be good cross-pollination of ideas and processes.
Transnet will know how the Prasa is managing certain processes
and initiatives, be they of infrastructure nature, performance
nature and of market nature. You will only truly achieve that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 76
cross-pollination as Temasec has done in Singapore where I
visited and saw it myself. This can only be done through a
structure like this.
The other thing it will do is lessen interference. One of the
things that has been raised by the state-owned council is the
issue of interference from the executives because sometimes
there is the eagerness to get involved and end up interfering.
When we have a common state-owned structure, which has all
these subsidiaries, we will then be able to have commonality
of interest, processes and remuneration of either directors or
management so that everything is synchronised. This will bring
about a new era for our state-owned enterprises. It will
enable us and strengthen our resolve in better managing our
state-owned enterprises. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Tshiven?a:
Muf C M PHIRI: Ndi a livhuwa, Mulangadzulo, kha vha ntendele
ndi reshe vha?honifhei vha re fhano N?uni ino, ndi dovhe ndi
reshe na vhadzulapo vha Afrika Tshipembe.
Mulangadzulo, nda ndi khou ?o?a u isa ndumeliso dzo khwa?haho
kha Muphuresidennde, Singo ?a ha Ramabulana ?ine ?a a?amela na
vhavhulayi, vhone vha?e Vho Ramaphosa.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 77
Muhulwane, vho dodombedza zwavhu?i nga maan?a zwa uri Mabindu
a Muvhuso ndi one ane a khwa?hisa ikonomi. Arali o
maan?afhadzwa kana ... vho ?i sumbedzisa na kha phindulo
dzavho uri kha mbekanyamushumo kana maga o vhewaho u itela u
khwinifhadza haya Mabindu a Muvhuso. Ri khou tenda nahone ri
tendelana nazwo ri?e sa vhadzulapo vha Afrika Tshipembe kana
ri?e sa Mira?o ya Phalamennde.
Muhulwane, mbudziso yanga ndi ya uri: Ndi zwifhio zwivhuya
zwavhu?i zwa u ?anganelana ha Mabindu a Muvhuso na zwiimiswa
zwa phuraivethe kha Mabindu a Muvhuso ane a vha na mutsiko wa
masheleni na thaidzo dza u sa shuma zwavhu?i? Honeha, ndi
mbuno dzifhio dzine vha nga ri vhudza dzone dzine dzi nga
konisa u maan?afhadza ikonomi yashu na uri i dovhe hafhu u
vhuyelela ngonani u itela uri haya mabindu a khwa?he a shume
nga n?ila yo teaho. Ndo livhuwa, Muhulisei, Aa.
MUPHURESIDENNDE: Ndi a livhuwa, Mulangadzulo, ndi dovhe ndi
livhuwe na zwirendo zwe vha ranga ngazwo. Ndi khou tama u
khwa?hisedza haya mafhungo a uri arali ra ?anganyiso haya
Mabindu a Muvhuso o?he a vha fhasi ha nn?u nthihi na musi a
tshi ?o vha o ?iimisa nga o?he, ndi zwone zwine zwa ?o
khwa?hisa kushumele kwa haya mabindu, nahone zwi ?o dovha zwa
ri thusa uri ikonomi yashu i bvelele nga n?ila yo fanelaho.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 78
Vho vhudzisa mbudziso yavhu?i ya uri arali haya ma?we mabindu
a sekithara ya phuraivethe ra a ?anganyisa na a muvhuso zwi
nga shuma naa? Ndi mitshelo ifhio ine ra nga kana? Ndi a i
takalela mbudziso heyo ngauri musi ri tshi sedza ma?we Mabindu
a Muvhuso ri wana uri arali ra kona u panga ma?we a sekithara
ya phuraivethe ...
English:
The SPEAKER: Hon member, what is your problem?
[Interjections.] You may proceed, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT: ... The participation ...
Sesotho:
Ha ke bua hantle ke re, ha dikhamphani tse ding tsa mmuso di
ka kgona ho sebedisana mmoho le lefapha la poraefete,
mohlomomg e ka ba ntho ye ka re thusang dinthong tse ding.
English:
... for instance,
Sesotho:
... ha ke etsa mohlala o motle...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 79
English:
... Telkom used to be wholly-owned by government and we
brought in the private sector. We still own a fairly big share
of about 40-something per cent. What we also did with Telkom
is that it was listed on the Stock Exchange and it is one of
those top-performing companies. It pays dividends to
government every year, on a continuous basis, is well-managed.
The strength of that is that - having been a public-owned
entity and having been listed – Telkom has been catapulted to
another level of governance, management and performance
management as well by bringing in other shareholders.
The same thing has happened to a number of companies in China.
I have said in this House before, China Mobile, which has
700 million subscribers, is listed on the New York Stock
Exchange. Through that listing, they were able to raise a lot
of capital that has fuelled the growth of China Mobile, which
did not require a lot of fiscus support the government. They
have done the same thing with the Industrial and Commercial
Bank of China, ICBC, which is the largest bank in the world.
That is the strength of bringing in participation without
losing control. They have done that without the loss of
control.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 80
Today, what we are seeking to do is with our own SA Airways,
SAA, having run into enormous challenges and problems. What
are we doing? We say we will bring in the private sector
player, who will come in and invest and inject life into the
SAA. In that way, I find that some of our state-owned
enterprises can reach a level of good performance because by
so doing, we are not privatising but just bringing in partners
who are going to add a lot of strength and capability. Through
the partnership, we will be able to do a very good cross-
pollination of ideas, systems, governance, financial and
otherwise.
It also gives us a good standing. I often say that when Eskom
was in its heyday, that is the entity that we could have
listed. We could have listed the debt burden that Eskom has
and it could have been easily dealt with. Anyway, that is
history. Now, we have to manage it out of where it is and we
will make all efforts.
Tshiven?a:
Nga zwenezwo, ndi khou tendelana navho uri hu na zwivhuya
zwine ri nga zwi wana arali ri tshi khou shumisana na Mabindu
a Muvhuso na vhoramabindu vhane vha vha kha phuraivethe.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 81
English:
The key issue is just to manage that whole process in a way
that your state-owned enterprises still serve public good and
still focuses on the developmental mandate because that is an
important one; to ensure that the services or whatever
products that it produces are still able to reach the poorest
of the poor in our country through the developmental mandate
it should have. It is doable. It is something that we can move
towards. Through this SOE Council, we should be able to reach
that level. Thank you very much.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Thank you very much, Mr
President, I am very glad that you mentioned Eskom because we
are on our 15th year of load shedding in South Africa.
In 2015, you said and I quote:
In another 18 months to two years, you will forget the
challenges with power, energy and Eskom ever happened.
Last week, we got hit with stage four, with the potential of
stage six. Electricity has gone up by an astronomical 450% in
the last 10 years. It is killing jobs and the economy. All of
these increases are to cover for your poverty Cabinet’s
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 82
incompetence and corruption. All to make up for government’s
lack of accountability.
People are not paying for more expensive electricity; they are
paying for your poverty Cabinet. Electricity price increases
come directly out of the back pockets of ordinary household
income. How can you justify choosing price increases for
people over accountability for your poverty Cabinet? Thank
you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon Steenhuisen raised a very
important question about electricity price increase that we
saw introduced. As he well-knows, electricity prices are
regulated by National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, which is
an independent agency we put in place.
Eskom, looking at its own budgeting, will say this is the
price increase we desire. Quiet often, they pack it at a
higher level and Nersa brings it down. Then there are
interventions and discussions that happen to bring it where it
is.
Eskom faces its own special problems; more special than
sometimes we imagine. I did say in this House on the state of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 83
the nation that the deficit we have is 4000 megawatts. To
ensure that the availability factor of our energy is at a
level where even some of power stations break, we still have
that cushion. We no longer have that cushion.
When these old power stations and generators trip, break and
some fail to come on stream as well as we wanted, particularly
Medupi and Kusile, which we spent enormous amounts of money
on, when that happens, in the end the deficit is still there
and we still have that shortage. That is what gives rise to
the load shedding.
As I said, it’s not like we are sitting and doing nothing. We
have taken steps, measures and initiatives to ensure that we
have alternative power through the various windows that we
have put in place. We are going to another bid window. We have
allowed the up to sell generation of power of up to
100 megawatts. All that is in the works and is going to come
through. Various investors and manufacturers of equipment are
now in a race to make sure that we get there.
We had thought that we would also get emergency power, but
then again, we are caught up by our own regulations – the
environmental impact assessment decrease something else. I
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 84
travelled last year in December to Ivory Coast and Ghana, they
have exactly the same. They were running short of
2000 megawatts or so. They brought in emergency power and that
enables their economies - they are not at the same level as we
are – to have sufficient power to help them as they are
building up their own more permanent power. In our case, that
has been put to a stop. We had thought that we will be able to
get the 4000 megawatts deficit, we didn’t.
Going forward, we want cheap energy all of us. The renewables
are going to be able to give us cheap energy. The initial bid
windows were very expensive; the latter ones have become
cheaper. I see the era of cheaper energy coming. I agree with
you completely that the 400% energy price rise in the last 10
years is something that has dealt a blow to our economy.
We used to have the cheapest energy in the world and that’s
why we were able to set up smelters both in Mozambique and in
our own country, but those days are long gone now. We are now
surviving on a day-to-day basis with very minimal energy that
is generated here.
We are solving the problem. We are addressing it. I have said
this before. It is not the deliberateness or the intention of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 85
Eskom to be embarking on load shedding, it is how they manage
the system. It is a very complex and delicate system that one
company holds the energy fortunes of the country in its hands.
When one power station trips, it immediately affects the
entire system.
With the diversification that we have embarked upon of getting
independent power producers, and also the diversification that
Eskom itself has opted for to go into renewables, we are going
to see a new era of energy generation coming to the fore in
our country. I didn’t say that in 2015 nor did I? Yes, I could
have. You were listening.
In 2015, we were truly hopeful that our energy challenges
would lessen, but they have gotten worse. At the same time, we
have become a lot better in bringing in renewable energy; the
sun and the wind generating quiet a lot of energy into the
grid on an ongoing basis as we move forward. We could have
been much worse off than where we are, but energy construction
takes time. We need to allow this process to ensue. I am
positively hopeful that we are going to see better days when
it comes to our energy generation. Thank you very much, hon
Speaker.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 86
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, thank you very much, President, I
think there is a slightly more strategic question to consider
here with respect to this question on SOEs. Given the tendency
of the economic superpowers around the world to either ignore
the international dispute resolution mechanisms or to
completely bypass them and decide to resolve disputes through
violence or wars, does that not naturally increase the
propensity around the world for member states to use violence
to resolve disputes? When you consider that one of our SOEs,
for example, Denel is on the brink of collapse, that state-
owned enterprise’ state impacts negatively on the ability of
the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, to discharge its
constitutional mandate? Firstly, what would you try to resolve
that? And lastly, which is also related to the matter of SOEs
is, while the development of a framework governing SOEs is
critical and important for their sustainability, government
should also be talking about what are those SOEs going to use
to mitigate the effects and the impact of the conflict between
Russia and Ukraine on the South African economy. What are you
going to do about those two related to SOEs? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker ...
IsiXhosa:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 87
... andikuva, kodwa ndingatsho ndithi ndikuvile.
English:
Hon Speaker, the pointed question, for instance, of entities
such as Denel, which at the current moment are going through a
very difficult and almost an impossible period is that we do
need to bring life into them and to show up their balance
sheet.
Denel is a government entity that has so much potential that
the market is just wide open for it. What it really needs, is
to be given, yes, that leg up and support so that it goes back
to its glory days.
Many countries on the African continent keep coming to us and
say, we have looked at the products that Denel produces; from
vehicles, missiles and the Rooivalk. We want to buy our
products from Denel. Would Denel be able to deliver?
Denel has run into a financial problem and a financial
challenge which we are looking at. Denel would also help us in
the times that we live in, like now. Our SANDF is very reliant
on Denel. Most of the equipment that they have were made by
Denel. Therefore, the twinning between SANDF and Denel is very
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 88
critical from a procurement point of view and from a supply
point of view. Denel needs to be propped up and to be
assisted. Once it is and is properly run under the structure
that we spoke about, it will be much better placed to be able
to fulfil its objectives.
It has also been receiving approaches – I must say – about
partnering with other players where other players say, we know
the challenges that Denel is going through. We would be able
to give balance sheet support. We would like to find out if
South Africa will be willing to partner us at an equity level
and more. These are matters that we are giving consideration
to, to look at the costs and benefits of precisely that type
of option.
In the broader geopolitics of the world, as an industrialised
country that we are, you do need a Denel. Denel that will be
able to build and manufacture the type of equipment that is
needed in this day in age given the propensity of a number of
powers in the world to resort to violence rather than to
resolve problems through negotiation. Denel is a great asset
for us to have at a state-owned enterprise level. I would like
to see Denel gets back to its feet rather than remain in the
doldrums where it is, and also participate more actively and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 89
profitably as a keen pillar of our SANDF. I think we can get
there. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Question 6:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the appointment of
the National Commissioner of the SA Police Service, the SAPS,
is governed by section 207(1) of the Constitution that says,
and which I’m sure hon Groenewald is well aware of:
The President as head of the national executive must
appoint a woman or a man as the National Commissioner of
the Police Service to control and manage the Police
Service.
That’s what the Constitution says. While this places sole
responsibility for the appointment of the national
commissioner in the hands of the President, it does not
preclude the President from putting in place a process to seek
recommendations and proposals.
This is the approach that I took with respect to the
appointment of the National Director of Public Prosecutions
and to the identification of potential candidates for the
position of Chief Justice. In each case, the approach that I
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 90
took was informed by the specific circumstances and the nature
of the position. These considerations will continue to inform
me on the approach that I take with respect to the appointment
of the next SAPS national commissioner. So, they will help to
inform me. However, in the end the Constitution is clear on
who appoints and how that appointment will be done. So as you
have come to know me, and to criticise me at times, I will
embark on a process. You are suggesting a panel of experts and
all that, and I will inaugurate a process which will lead me
to finally appointing a national commisioner. Thank you.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, I
welcome your commitment to follow a process. It is part of the
National Development Plan, NDP, where you were the deputy
chairperson. In that NDP it clearly says that if you want a
professional and effective Police Service, then it states the
following. The National Commissioner of Police and deputies
should be appointed by the President on a competitive basis. A
selection panel, established by the President, should select
and interview candidates for these posts against objective
criteria. The President should appoint the national
commissioner and deputies from recommendations in the reports
received from this selection panel.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 91
So thank you, hon President. I hope you will follow that ... a
panel of experts making recommendations because part of the
problem with crime in South Africa is that since 2000 and up
to 2017 South Africa had national commissioners that knew
nothing about the police. We started with Jackie Selebi, a
diplomat who ended up in jail and who found out that you
cannot fight criminals with diplomacy; Bheki Cele who was a
politician; and then Riah Phiyega a social worker. They
disbanded specialised units because they didn’t understand the
operational requirements to ensure an effective Police
Service.
Hon President, my follow-up question is, how soon will that
happen? What is the timeframe? I can also say to you that
having an acting commissioner also does not create a conducive
situation for effectively fighting crime. I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker and I’d
like to thank hon Groenewald for his thoughts and views, as
well as what I would say, maybe suggestions, which are really
not suggestions because they are encapsulated in the NDP. So,
a good reminder, a good hope because that’s exactly what you
said. It’s a wonderful hope and it’s being done. It’s going to
happen in a process that I’ve outlined here. So, rest assured
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 92
that a process will be followed and we will make sure that it
is done on a competitive basis as set out in the NDP. It will
be people who are well steeped in the craft of policing. Thank
you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr A M SEABI: Thank you very much, hon Speaker and President.
I want to join hon Groenewald in welcoming the commitment by
the President in following a process, without disregarding the
prerogative of the President to appoint, as enshrined in the
Constitution.
Having said that, hon President, what practical plans or
measures have been undertaken thus far to implement the
recommendations of the report of the panel of experts in
strengthening the Security cluster? Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, processes are
underway to implement the recommendations of the panel, which
we have taken very seriously in all its ramifications. We are
involved in the process of ensuring that we strengthen the
security complex in our country in all aspects, from people to
processes and to institutions. All of that is being addressed
to make sure that the security system and cluster is properly
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 93
strengthened, particularly in light of what the panel has
recommended in its clear recommendations.
The National Security Council has met a few times to precisely
look at these recommendations and those recommendations are
now in the process of being implemented. Part of what we are
doing now ... the appointment of people, is precisely that,
and to ensure that there will be good co-operation between the
executive as well as the functionaries in the form of, say for
instance, the Minister who looks after oversight and also
those who are more operational, like say, directors-general,
the commissioners and all that.
So, we are looking at the full ramifications of the Security
cluster and beginning the process. It’s a reform process,
informed by a clear strategy that needs to be put in place.
Thank you very much.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much. Mr
President, last week a report came out about South Africa’s
social instability. The report said that your party’s internal
faction fighting posed the single biggest risk of political
instability and conflict in South Africa today. So, I think
you have been warned. And, believe you me, what happened in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 94
KwaZulu-Natal last year could happen again at any time,
especially with fuel, electricity and food prices doubling the
increase in social grants. Another report this week showed
that inequality in South Africa is the highest in the world.
Our country is literally dry tinder and it’s just waiting for
a spark.
Mr President, when are you going to put the country ahead of
your party? You used taxpayers’ money to buy out a useless
police commissioner. When are you going to use your
presidential power to get rid of your useless Police Minister?
Now, before you say opinion, it’s not opinion. The Zondo
Report, crime statistics, gender-based violence statistics ...
Our women, children and our citizens live in fear every day.
When are you going to give us a Police Minister who is going
to inspire confidence and keep us safe? [Applause.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Speaker, on a point of order. Just before the
President responds, is it parliamentary for a Member of
Parliament to call another member useless? It was ruled before
as unparliamentary. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 95
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Radebe. I will look into
the matter and I’ll be advised accordingly. You may proceed,
hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I hear
what hon Steenhuisen is saying and clearly I ...
[Interjections.] Oh, sorry, it’s my iPad. [Interjections.] I
think hon Steenhuisen has a private wish. His private wish is
that he would like to be President and appoint Ministers, and
I have to say that ... [Interjections.] I have to say that,
that wish is not evident now and might never be.
[Interjections.] Yes. So, the process of appointing Ministers
and Deputy Ministers is the President’s prerogative, and I
think it’s best left there.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, as you
have said and outlined, there will be a process that you will
be undertaking in order for you to appoint the national
commissioner. Can the President then take us into confidence
... that maybe this time in the process that will be
undertaken there will be transparency to the public as well,
so that they know that the person who will be elected is a
person that they will feel safe with and ... will also have
hope that South Africa will be led forward. We should all be
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 96
able to agree that our Security cluster must be
professionalised to the highest degree possible, which
includes the process of achieving an honest, ethical,
competent Police Service which is completely free of political
manipulation and control. Up until now this has been nothing
more than a pipe dream.
How do you intend reversing the tide in this area and ensure
that only competent career security professionals are
appointed to these positions? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon
Speaker. I have said that I am going to embark on a process
for the appointment of the next National Commissioner of
Police and in the end that process will yield the type of
results that will be positive ... will be able to take the
Police Service forward.
Now, we will be processing this matter in a way that will
actually take us to a good end. I would like to thank hon
Groenewald and other members who have asked this question
because I take it that you ask this question out of great
concern and you ask it in line with what is set out in the
NDP. I see it in a positive light and I would like to thank
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 17 MARCH 2022
Page: 97
you for raising it in the way that you have. It does show that
you too have the interest of the country at heart as I do. So
we will move forward and we will act on the various matters
that we need to work on to ensure that the next National
Commissioner of Police is a fit and proper person who will be
able to manage and lead our police in the most effective way.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: That concludes Questions to the President and I
thank the hon the President. Hon members, that concludes the
business of the day. The House is adjourned.
The House adjourned at 16:51.
Audio
No related