Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 16 Mar 2022

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch video here: 
PLENARY (VIRTUAL)

The Council met at 14:01.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The Deputy Chairperson announced that the virtual sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon delegates, I have been informed that in accordance with Rule 2291, there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY: DEPUTY PRESIDENT

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Before wemproceed to the questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy President, premiers, MECs, speakers and all special delegates to the House. I would further like to make the following remarks. The time for reply to a question by the Deputy President is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementaryquestion must emanate from the initial question. So, we will now start and call the hon Deputy President to respond to Question 1, which was asked by the hon Nokuzola Ndongeni.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, hon Labuschagne.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, I have a request. Can you remind the hon members that on the Zoom platform there is a function to block out all background noises?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes. Thank you very much, hon Labuschagne. That is what I wanted to ask
before the Deputy President responds. This morning we had a serious problem because of the fact that members were not vigilant when logging on their platform. Sometimes very funny things can happen like what happened this morning with the event we were supposed to have. We were actually delayed for a full hour before we could start. So, can we please check properly, mute all background noises and mute when it is not your turn to speak! I’m sorry for that, Deputy President, but we need to make sure that we don’t have disturbances while you are busy responding. It’s over to you, Deputy President. Question 1:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, as government, we are coordinated and updated on developments and challenges in the water sector through the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Water and Sanitation that is chaired by the Deputy President.

This Committee brings together key players within government
to provide leadership and technical assistance in our efforts
to resolve all challenges in the reliable provision of water
and sanitation services.
As the sixth administration, we are determined to bring
quality and safe drinking water to every household. We are
seized with the task of streamlining all efforts to ensure
long-term investment in municipal water infrastructure,
resources and maintenance for the delivery of water.
Deputy Chairperson, on the recent concerns related to the
quality of water provided to our communities for drinking, the
Department of Water and Sanitation has confirmed that our
country’s water quality remains compliant with the minimum
standards for drinking water as specified by the SA National
Standards.
This has been further confirmed in the recent announcement by
the National Institute of Communicable Diseases on the
reported cases of Typhoid in different municipalities across
the country. The Institute has clarified that the detection of
Typhoid between December 2021 and February of this year, was
not linked to contaminated municipal water.


 
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Whereas there were reported cases of Typhoid in the provinces
of the North West, Western Cape, and Eastern Cape, the quality
of water in these areas was found to be compliant with the
national drinking water standards.
As an ongoing measure, the Department of Water and Sanitation
will continue to monitor the processes that Water Services
Authorities implement and engages them where noncompliance is
detected.
For example, these entities are required to register for a
monitoring programme on the Integrated Regulatory Information
System, which indicates the sampling of water frequently, its
monitoring and what factors are monitored related to water
quality.
Deputy Chair, it is mandatory for all Water Service
Authorities to share their results and information on water
quality on this system, and appropriate action is taken where
challenges related to water quality are detected.
The Department of Water and Sanitation has also revived the
Blue Drop Certification Programme, which seeks to implement a
proactive drinking water quality risk management approach in


 
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order to ensure that quality failures are minimised; and where
it occurs, acceptable interventions are implemented to
safeguard affected communities.
We want to take this opportunity to urge municipalities to
continue with ensuring that our country’s drinking water
remains compliant to the set standards, while also fast-
tracking the efforts of improving the levels of access to
water to our communities.
With all these measures in place, we should not worry about
the possibility of contamination of our drinking water.
The Department of Water and Sanitation currently administers
the Water Services Infrastructure Grant and the Regional Bulk
Infrastructure Grant, which are focused on facilitating
planning and implementation of water projects in
municipalities, as a comprehensive approach to sustainable
water provision.
In the main, these grants are focused on funding interim
projects that are aimed at immediate provision of water to
prioritised communities, and in the medium to long term,


 
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providing funding to municipalities to refurbish, upgrade and
build new water infrastructure.
Furthermore, Cabinet approved the implementation of the
National Infrastructure Plan 2050 which is in line with the
National Development Plan in ensuring that everyone has
affordable access to safe drinking water and hygienic
sanitation in order to live healthy and dignified lives.
Part of the catalytic projects that are outlined in the plan
include the development, refurbishment, upgrading, and
expansion of key bulk water supply infrastructure and
reticulation networks. In addition to water provision, these
projects will also enhance socioeconomic development and
provide for economic empowerment to the surrounding
communities.
We call upon communities to work with government in ensuring
that water infrastructure is protected from vandalism and
theft. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms N NDONGENI: Deputy Chairperson, good afternoon. Good
afternoon, hon Deputy President. Thanks for the response you
gave us but I have one follow-up question. The National


 
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Treasury continues to allocate infrastructure grant for bulk
water infrastructure development, maintenance and supply. The
biggest concern with the municipality infrastructure grant is
poor spending and constant requests for roll-overs. While a
total of R15,9 billion in Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG
allocation was transferred to municipalities between July 2017
and March 2018, the Department of Cooperative Governance and
Traditional Affairs has since evoked section 18 of the
Division of Revenue Act to a large number of municipalities
that did not meet the expenditure requirements or comply with
the provision of the Act. Here is my question then, hon Deputy
President: Are there measures in place to support
municipalities on the spending of the grant, which are geared
towards water infrastructure given the necessity and urgency
to respond to the growing need of quality bulk water supply to
communities across the country? Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, the problem of
underspending and not delivering on performance plans - to our
take - is a function of lack of capacity in most of our
municipalities. So, as government nationally, we are empowered
through sections 62 and 63 of the Water Services Act, to
intervene in municipalities where monitoring of water and
sanitation services by the Department of Water and Sanitation


 
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indicates failure to adhere to national norms and standards
subject to section 139 of the Constitution.
In the recent Cabinet Lekgotla in January, we identified a
number of challenges that are affecting a lot of
municipalities as well as a lack of rapid response to
emergency situations such as sewerage spillage in residential
areas. We are prepared to resolve all these challenges
together with municipalities observing the intergovernmental
relations, as provided for in our Constitution. We are
prepared to support municipalities in terms of ensuring that
the water boards that are supposed to perform certain
functions perform these functions timeously without failure.
As I have said, Cogta is currently working on the
Intergovernmental Monitoring Support and Intervention Bill to
address some of these challenges so that we don’t delay in
terms of our response. Thank you very much.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Deputy President, recently the
Department of Water and Sanitation revealed that every single
one of South Africa’s major water and sanitation projects
currently under construction has missed its initial deadlines.
As water quality is closely linked to quality infrastructure,


 
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what steps are the government taking to address the poor
project management of the 20 infrastructure projects in
question? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, as government, we have
reinforced and solidified our working together with our
municipalities and provinces using the District Development
Model where, together, we plan for incomplete projects and new
projects that must be started. Where there’s an indication of
lack of capacity from the side of the municipality and the
province, the national Department of Cogta and Water and
Sanitation will intervene by necessarily supporting these
municipalities in terms of capacity. So, we are quite certain
that, going forward, all the projects that are there will be
completed on time. We have given a recovery plan from those
projects which are lacking behind. We think that we are going
to meet the deadlines. Thank you very much.
Mr T APLENI: Deputy President, the inability of municipalities
to provide basic services such as water, as is evident in the
Eastern Cape, and the failure to collect refuse, as is evident
in municipalities such as Mangaung in the Free State, are as a
result of two things. The first one is that the equitable
share municipalities get from the National Treasury is simply


 
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not enough particularly for small municipalities. The second
one is that municipalities hire poorly-qualified individuals
to undertake these tasks. Do you have plans to address any ...
[Inaudible.] ... the funding mechanisms for municipalities
particularly rural municipalities to deal with these
challenges? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, in all the projects that
are under planning and are supposed to be implemented during
the course of this financial year, the scorecard is being
monitored at the district level where all the three spheres of
government will collaborate. So, in that regard, we’ll use the
very same platform to support where support is needed from the
side of municipalities. I am talking about cases where there
is a lack of appropriately-qualified people who should help to
implement these projects. As national government, we stand
ready to support municipalities.
Therefore, I don’t think, hon member, that the grant that we
are giving to municipalities is not enough. In a number of
instances, the grant is being utilised for other things than
what it is intended for. So, we are ensuring that all the
grants that are given to municipalities are used for the
specified tasks, i.e. water and infrastructure. Municipalities


 
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should also augment this grant by charging for the services
that they render to communities.
For instance, communities are paying for water so that
municipalities can manage their infrastructure and repair
damages. Maintenance and the appointment of qualified people
can be utilised from the money and revenue they collect from
the communities, and use the infrastructure grant to expand
and put new infrastructure where necessary. So, it is a
question of utilising this grant appropriately and servicing
the communities appropriately so that they can get the
required revenue. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Deputy
President, without water we cannot exist, which means that
rapid responses in matters hampering the delivery of water
must always sit at the top of the agenda. My follow-up
question, hon Deputy President is: What is government’s rapid
response plan to address thousands of kilolitres of water lost
due to aging infrastructure in municipalities? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Chair, as government, we have
noted through our monitoring and evaluation programme,
infrastructure decay where in certain instances there’s water


 
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loss because of aging infrastructure; where there’s sewerage
spillage because of aging infrastructure; and overused
treatment plants in a number of provinces. We have put aside
plans to support those municipalities to fix these water
treatment plants so that we deal with the sewerage spillage.
The case in point is the water treatment plant in Mangaung,
and the water treatment plant in Emfuleni where we have even
deployed the SA Defence Force to come and help in that area.
In the main, we have detected the problem to be aging
infrastructure. Therefore, we have budgeted for new
infrastructure build through the grant that we are going to
give to municipalities. But this time around, Deputy Chair, we
are going to ensure that the grant is utilised for what it is
meant for in different municipalities. The grant is not going
to be utilised to pay salaries, but to upgrade and refurbish
old infrastructure. Thank you very much.
Question 2:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, President Ramaphosa
took a call with President Vladimir Putin of the Russian
Federation to express our support to the ongoing negotiation
efforts between Russia and Ukraine.


 
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We believe that diplomacy is always the most sensible pathway
in averting outbreak of conflict and war. It should be pursued
even when we are already in a situation of war so that we end
it and engage in post-conflict reconstruction measures. South
Africa continues to call for de-escalation of conflict,
cessation of hostilities and for the parties to work together
towards building trust and confidence by intensifying peace
mechanisms and dialogue in order to achieve long lasting
solutions to the conflict.
South Africa emphasis respect for the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of state. As a nation born through
negotiations ourselves, we are always appreciative and
confident of the potential that dialogue has in resolving
conflict. Therefore, we call upon the parties to devote
increased efforts in diplomacy and to finding a solution that
will help avert the escalation of positions.
We can rest assured that South Africa will continue to support
peaceful diplomatic negotiations as an essential tool to
achieve peace. We remain hopeful that the doors of diplomacy
shall never be closed even when conflict has escalated to this
level. We are proud and happy that as we are speaking Russia
and Ukraine are locked in a meeting to try and find one


 
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another and resolve their problems. Thank you very much,
Deputy Chair.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much Deputy Chair. Deputy
President, as a Leader of Government Business in Parliament
and most probably one of our biggest export products to
Russia, maybe you could help us on two issues today. The first
one is to make financial sense of the reasoning behind our
government stance when in 2021, South African export to and
from Russia and its political allies totalled R15,7 billion.
But with the 30 North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO,
countries the number came to R1,13 trillion.
Our economy is contracting and unemployment is sky rocketing.
Why are we sacrificing our economy for the ANC alliances?
Secondly, based on your answer on increased efforts of
diplomatic negotiations, are you prepared to meet with the
Ukrainian Ambassador to South Africa?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Right
from the onset I must say to the hon member, thank you for
your question. The President has initiated this open door
policy by taking a call with the President of the Russian


 
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Federation. And I am sure the President will continue to meet
the Presidency of Ukraine and allow for a discussion. Because
we want to re-emphasise the underlying principle of our
foreign policy and our foreign relations.
As a country, we are committed to justice and international
law in the conduct of our relations between nations. We are
committed to international peace and internationally agreed
upon mechanisms that will resolve conflict.
As we stated, South Africa has taken a balanced position that
emphasises the de-escalation of conflict and war through
peaceful negotiations and through diplomatic dialogue. For
this, we thank parties for prioritising the process of
negotiations to resolve ongoing conflicts and end the war. No
amount of condemnation, no amount of site taking will resolve
this problem. Diplomacy remains the key tool at our disposal
before us to end the war and to persuade parties that are
involved to deliver peace and stability. Thank you very much.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you very much, Deputy President for
reminding the House about the importance of the balanced
approach that our country is taking in regard to the
Ukrainian, Russian conflict.


 
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South Africa as country remains indebted to the role that the
none aligned movement has played historically in our struggle
against injustice and apartheid. That is the reason why as we
believe that as a country we continue to embrace the principle
of non-alignment in discharging our historic role and
responsibilities to resolve global conflict.
This approach on non-alignment remains relevant in dealing
with the current conflict between Russia and Ukraine because
it provides us with an opportunity to reaffirm our objectives
which mainly is crafted around revitalising our position as a
country in the global politics. But more than that, to ensure
we occupy our rightful positions in the developing countries
and the world.
But more than that, we see our position in the global politics
as promoting our relationship with the regional integration.
But more than that, to ensure that as a country our
relationship with the developing world is quite important.
My question is what is the view of the Deputy President to my
firm view that there is no contradiction between our continued
call for mediation and peaceful resolutions and the principles
of non-aligned?


 
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Chair, and thanks for
the follow up question. There is absolutely no contradiction
in the position that we have stated. Because we believe that
the diplomacy is always the most sensible pathway in averting
conflict and war. Even when we are already in a war situation
diplomacy should not be neglected as a means towards peace and
stability.
Conflict and war can stunt growth and can inhibit development.
It will always breed discounted and it is a recipe for further
disaster. At the receiving end of any conflict, it’s always
the ordinary people, mostly women and children that bear the
brunt of the pain and destruction of their lives.
Hon members would remember that many countries in the
continent have gone many conflicts. South Africa is one case
in point. We are a nation born of out of a conflict and we
chose a negotiated settlement, which has proven to be the best
and long lasting solution to our problems. As we stand today,
we still continue to talking about our problems and some are
not resolve, but the door of dialogue engagement remains
widely open. Thank you very much.


 
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Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. Deputy President,
it’s common knowledge that yourself and the ANC has historical
ties with Russia. President Ramaphosa was reportedly unhappy
with Minister Naledi Pandor’s strong statement calling Russia
to withdraw their troops from Ukraine.
Hon Mabuza, you and the Presidency continue to support Russia
or stay neutral, as you call it, even if the possibility
exists that Western and NATO, countries might impose sanctions
against South Africa on that view.
Will you continue to hold that stance even if the possibility
exists that sanctions might be imposed against South Africa?
Thus placing the stance of the ANC above that of the country.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, very much. I think we must
clarify one position that the leader of government is the
President. In any foreign matters the President would be the
rightful person to guide the country. I think we support the
statement made by the President that we would prefer
mediation, dialogue, as the best way to achieve sustainable
peace.


 
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Yes, we have got strong relations with the then Soviet Union,
the now Russian Federation. We are co-operating together in
the platform called Brazil, Russia, China and South Africa,
BRICS.
That does not mean that we are blind to the situation that is
obtaining now between the conflict that has arisen between
Russia and Ukraine. In that conflict, we are calling for
mediation, we are calling for diplomacy. We have not decided
to take any site and we don’t want to go to historical
challenges that has developed to date and that is at the
centre of the conflict.
It would never help anyone either to blame Russia or to blame
NATO. The best sensible way is to resolve through dialogue the
conflict that is between the two countries.
We will continue to urge countries. Our international
relations policy or South African stand on mediation, on
diplomacy, we will continue to push it until we achieve peace.
Because as a country we also born out of conflict. Thank you.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy President,
the root cause of the crisis in Eastern Europe is the rapid


 
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eastward expansion of NATO in Europe since the fall of the
Soviet Union.
NATO is a war instrument used by the United States to unsettle
nations and bully others into submission. Russia is correct to
feel concern that having American missiles in Ukraine in the
form of NATO would be a threat to their national security.
Why has the attention been on Russia defending its sovereignty
rather than the insensible appetite for expansion demonstrated
by NATO over the past two decades. What is your government’s
position on the eastward expansion of NATO? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. I think as you have
said, taking the root causes of the problem that is the
expansion of NATO towards the East. You are correct because
there were agreements that were reached not to expand NATO
even with one inch towards the East and some of these
agreements were not honoured.
But be that as it may, we have reached the point where we are
now where we think that the best way to resolve all the
problems that has accumulated for all these years, the
expansion of NATO, the aggression of NATO, and the response


 
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from the Russian Federation. We think there is a possibility
of opening a platform where we can mediate, where the parties
can talk and resolve their problems.
We want to thank the Russian Federation, especially President
Vladimir Putin for opening space for mediation and talks
between his government and the government of Ukraine. As we
speak now, they are in a meeting, they are trying to resolve
their differences which we support and we will continue to
support. Thank you very much.
Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, our immigration system is
grappling with the implementation of stringent measures to
deal with the influx of undocumented foreign nationals into
our country who ultimately compete with our citizens over
limited resources in order to survive.
This competition often leads to tensions which we see in most
and some of the communities, which then manifests in different
forms of campaigns and actions that in the main have negative
undertones.


 
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Rest assured, we are mindful of the legitimate concerns of our
citizens, where they feel there is no sufficient action by our
law enforcement agencies to deal with the issues of
undocumented foreign nationals. This is why we have now
established a Border Management Agency, BMA, to attend to the
existing porous border problem and ensure that we improve the
situation.
The Department of Home Affairs has a legal mandate to deal
with concerns relating to undocumented foreign nationals. That
is why we discourage any anti-foreigner sentiments and the
destruction of property associated with these protests and
related activities; this includes protests and marches that
engender violence directed at foreign businesses and
undocumented foreign workers.
While the concerns that are raised may be legitimate, they
must be raised and attended to within the scope of the law. We
call for calm, restraint and adherence to lawful means from
all parties who are involved in the ongoing confrontations.
We are a country whose constitution is hailed as a progressive
tool that is in our hands, in terms of its content, more
especially in its promotion and protection of human rights of


 
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all people who live in this without really defining their
status of citizenship.
To give effect to this important constitutional imperative,
Cabinet has adopted a National Action Plan to Combat Racism,
Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in
March 2019. Amongst other things the National Action Plan is
aimed at facilitating humane and dignified approach to
managing migrants, refugees and asylum seekers.
Under the banner of the National Action Plan to Combat Racism,
Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, the
Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, in
partnership with relevant stakeholders such as the Anti-Racism
Network of South Africa, is conducting social mobilisation
campaigns to address racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia
and other intolerances amongst society.
The Department of Home Affairs conducts its law enforcement
activities in full compliance within the applicable human
rights standards. Furthermore, the department has, in terms of
the Immigration Act, developed capacity and systems to track,
trace and repatriate all undocumented migrants who might have
entered South Africa illegally.


 
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To this end, the Rapid Response Task Team has been established
with the sole task of developing rapid response mechanisms.
This will be linked to early warning systems and will collate
incidents of racist, xenophobic offences that are reported to
law enforcement agencies.
This information will assist to follow-up on cases that have
gone through our National Prosecution Authority, NPA, for
prosecution, including judicial outcomes.
Of course we are concerned about the recent increase in
criminal activities involving foreign nationals, especially in
the Gauteng province. These include the recent cash-in-transit
heist that took place in Rosettenville, in which nine people
died and several others were injured. Most of these people
that were involved in the cash-in-transit heist were foreign
nationals.
The plans of these law-breakers were foiled as a result of
intelligence-driven campaigns by law enforcement agencies. We
must, at this point, salute the work of our law enforcement
agencies in the successful execution of that operation.


 
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This continues across the country as a strong fight against
criminals; for crime is crime, irrespective of the nationality
of the perpetrator.
The Ministry of Police has advised that members of the Public
Order Policing Unit are currently deployed in Alexandra
township, in Gauteng province, in order to assist with crime
prevention interventions and to contain the spread of attacks
on foreign-owned businesses.
The Community Policing Strategy also provides for police to
work with communities to address threats to peace, to
stability and including acts of xenophobic attacks on foreign
nationals.
We, thus, encourage co-operation between concerned community
members and law enforcement agencies in ensuring that all
issues raised are resolved peacefully and within the confines
of the law.
We must, as South Africans, abide by values and behaviour
patterns that will make us break our hurtful and damaging
past, and keep our moral compass focused on the path of
renewal and growth. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.


 
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Mr M DANGOR: Hon Deputy President, we welcome the
interventions that you have highlighted especially those that
are geared towards finding a lasting solution to the
increasing concern about our porous borders and ensuring that
the issue of the large number of undocumented immigrants does
not lead to uncontrolled levels of lawlessness afrophobia.
The issue of cross-border crime, especially in provinces such
as Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Free State and Limpopo has
demonstrated an urgent need to allocate more resources to
crime prevention and monitoring measures and proper resourcing
of border management.
Beyond the border management authority are there any plans to
ensure the proper resourcing of border management and
intelligence-driven initiatives like the ones that we saw in
Rosettenville to ensure the protection of communities don’t
cross border crimes? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, the issue of cross-border
crime especially affecting communities along the borders,
crime such as car theft, stock theft, just to name a few,
these are of great concern to the state and this matter is


 
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receiving priority attention from the Justice, Crime
Prevention and Security Cluster.
We can assure the House that Border Management Authority will,
from now henceforth, be properly and sufficiently funded to
ensure that borderline infrastructure is properly maintained.
Already the recruitment of the first ... [Inaudible.] ... of
border guards is currently underway.
On the intelligence-driven initiative to deal with border
crimes, the agency will collaborate with other security and
law enforcement agencies in the Justice, Crime Prevention and
Security Cluster.
The Department of Employment and Labour also developed the
National Labour Migration Policy, which is aimed to achieve a
balance in the following major areas: to introduce maximum
quotas on the total number of documented foreign nationals
with work permits, with visas, that can be employed in major
economic sectors in our country such as agriculture,
hospitality and tourism, and construction.
The National Labour Migration Policy will be complemented by
small business interventions and enforcement of a list of


 
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undesirable sectors where foreign nationals cannot be
allocated business visas.
Amendment to the Small Business Act will limit foreign
nationals establishing small businesses and trading in some
sectors of our economy.
Government will continue to impose various obligations on both
employers and foreign nationals to transfer skills to locals
and permits will be limited to specific durations and time for
foreign nationals who are here on work permit. Thank you very
much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, my follow up question
to the hon Deputy President is: The IFP has, in response to
the social mobilization against undocumented persons, proposed
a Bill that seeks to protect jobs for South Africans and put
South Africans first.
I would like to know: What is government’s rapid response to
address the massive shortcomings in identifying all
undocumented foreign nationals over the next financial year?
Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.


 
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, the Department of Home
Affairs is conducting some research and follow-ups on all
undocumented foreign nationals that are within the country.
They trace these foreign nationals, if they can’t give
satisfactory explanation they are taken back to their country.
But the biggest challenge that we face is that as we take them
back to their country, the following day they come in because
of our porous borders. Hence the Border Management Agency to
ensure that our borders are not porous.
Now, there are foreign nationals that are here within the
country legitimately because they have applied, they have work
permits. There are certain skills that we don’t have in
abundance in the country, so, we allow foreign nationals to
come with those skills; skills in hospitality, construction,
education, university sector. So, those foreign nationals are
allowed to be in the country for a specified period and they
are also allowed to renew their permit, if they so wish and
government feels we are still running short of those skills.
We think the Border Management Agency will help a lot to
stabilise the movement of people, undocumented people in and
out of our borders, and ensure that we limit the crime that is


 
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happening in our borders affecting our communities that are
located in those borders. Thank you very much.
Setswana:
Rre K MOTSAMAI: Motlatsamtautona, Tona ya Tshireletso o sa
tswa go bua mo sešweng gore bontsi ba digongwana tsa bosenyi
mo Aforikaborwa di eteletswe pele ke batswakwa. A o ka
netefatsa se? Kgotsa Tona ya Tshireletso o ne a tlaopa?
Fa e le gore Tona ya Tshireletso o ne a bua boammaruri, go
pala eng jaanong go lwantsha le go fedisa digongwana tse tsa
bosenyi?
A diakgelo tse ga di na go tlhotlheletsa bosemorafe jo bo
aparetseng naga ya rona ya Aforikaborwa? Ke a leboga,
Motlatsamodulasetilo.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Chair, I’m not in a good
space here because I don’t have any interpretation facilities.
So, I’ve not heard the question, exactly. I don’t know how I
can be assisted.


 
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Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, I’m rising on a point of
order!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Advocate,
can the Table assist, please!
What is your point of order, hon Mokause?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, it clearly shows from your
side incompetence because when we started this sitting there
was a promise that there is indeed interpretation. It clearly
shows how you undermine other languages and it’s totally
unacceptable.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Advocate,
can we get assistance from the Table? Because hon Rider is
indicating on the Chat Group that he heard the interpretation,
which means for parliamentarians interpretation was available.
The Deputy President said he doesn’t have interpretation
available, it doesn’t mean we haven’t provided interpretation.
So, can we just ask Adv Phindela: Is there any way that we can
assist the Deputy President?


 
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Adv M PHINDELA: Deputy Chair, I will just find out, perhaps we
can have the interpretation switched on so that ... then later
we can interpret to the benefit of the Deputy President.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Whilst we
are waiting for that to take place, I will ask hon Boshoff now
to ask her follow up and we will come back to the question of
hon Motsamai.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy President, xenophobia has broken out at
least eight times in South Africa over the past 10 years, with
reprisal attacks in Zambia and Namibia. Political parties are
feeding the flames and now we have seen the rise of
nationalist groups particularly in Gauteng.
At the heart of the undocumented foreigner debate is a
dysfunctional, corrupt and broken Home Affairs Department
presided over by Minister Aaron Motswaledi.
Deputy President, will you support the DA’s vote of no
confidence in the Cabinet to get rid of underperformers like
Minister Motswaledi for the sake of our country and the sake
of the people living in our country? Thank you, Deputy Chair.


 
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I don’t
know, is it still the same question? Or was this just used as
a starting point? But I don’t know, is it still the same
question?
So, hon Deputy President, you can decide whether it is still
the same question!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, we must reemphasize the
fact that, yes, our borders are porous hence the development
of the Border Management Agency. This is an agency that will
incorporate all our law enforcement departments and agencies
to take care of our border management and we are going to
strengthen the infrastructure on the borders to ensure that
these borders are not porous. Because, hon member, the problem
that we are facing is porous borders. You take undocumented
foreign nationals back to their countries and the following
week they are back using the same porous borders.
So, the best way is to ensure that we strengthen our border
management and ensure that we strengthen the infrastructure;
which is currently happening and I’m very happy about the work
that the Minister of Home Affairs is doing. Instead, let us
focus on the problem not on the person.


 
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From where we are sitting, Minister Motswaledi is doing the
best he can to improve. The implementation of the Border
Management Agency came under his leadership and he’s
implementing it. We are going to have border guards; we are
going to have improved infrastructure in our borders to ensure
that people who have been taken back to their home don’t come
back again.
So, I’m quite confident about the measures that we have put in
place to ensure that we limit these cross-border crimes and
limit our porous borders. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Before we
move on, can we get whether that question of hon Motsamai is
available now? Advocate? Can the interpreter just put it in
the system?
Who am I speaking to?
Adv M PHINDELA: You are speaking to me, Deputy Chairperson. We
are attending to it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, does
the Deputy President have the question?


 
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Adv M PHINDELA: Not yet, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, we will
... let’s continue. We will come back ... Let’s continue.
Hon Deputy President, sorry for that now ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was going to make a request,
Deputy Chair, that we get Adv Phindela as the South Sotho
speaker to just translate the question so that the Deputy
President can deal with the matter? Thanks.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): That is a
proposal from the Chairperson.
Chairperson, in any case, can you take over after this,
please?
That is a proposal from the Chairperson. Adv Phindela is it
fine with you to assist us to get that question over and done
with?
Adv M PHINDELA: Deputy Chairperson, we’ll get the interpreter
to deal with the question.


 
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can the
interpreter please ... since the Chairperson proposed, let us
not move from there. Can the interpreter please then assist us
now? Because after this we will give over to the Chairperson
to preside over the proceedings further.
Adv M PHINDELA: Deputy Chair, may we request that hon Motsamai
repeat the question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Motsamai, if you don’t mind, can you please repeat the
question! Hon Kenny Motsamai?
Is hon Motsamai still on the platform?
AN HON MEMBER: Maybe he wants you to tell him in Sesotho how
to repeat.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: That is exactly what I’m talking about,
Chairperson. How members of this Council undermine other
languages and you are simply endorsing it.
AN HON MEMBER: Hon Mokause, you were not allowed to speak, and
no.


 
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Mr K MOTSAMAI: No, she is allowed. Somebody can simply say ‘I
must translate’ ... ‘can I speak English?’ Or can I translate
my question in English ...
AN HON MEMBER: Speak ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Motsamai, can you do it in Setswana, in
Setswana ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order, hon
members. Hon Motsamai, I asked you to repeat the question ...
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Ya [Yes], I’m speaking Setswana ...
Setswana:
... e tlhile ke bua Setswana nna.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): ... I asked
you to repeat the question. Can you repeat it please?
Setswana:
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Motlatsatautona, Tona ya Tshireletso o sa tswa
go bua mo sešweng gore bontsi jwa digongwana tsa bosenyi mo


 
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Aforikaborwa di eteletswe pele ke batswakwa. A o netefatsa se
kgotsa Tona ya Tshireletso o ne a tlaopa?
Fa e le gore Tona ya Tshireletso o ne a bua boammaruri, go
pala eng jaanong go lwantsha le go fedisa digongwana tse tsa
bosenyi?
A diakgelo tse di dirilweng ke Tona tsa bosenyi jo bo diriwang
ke batswakwa ga se tsone di tlhotlheletsang gore go nne le go
sa ratane mo Aforikabirwa? Ke a leboga. Ke e okeditse moo le
mole gore a kgone go e tlhaloganya.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you
very much, hon Motsamai. We appreciate the fact that you were
prepared to come back and repeat the question.
Over to you, Deputy President!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Chair, the question has been
repeated in the same language and on my side there’s no
interpretation.


 
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Deputy President. We take that. I will just broadly tell
the Deputy President what the question was.
Apparently the Defence Minister indicated that most of the
crimes in South Africa that are taking place are done by
foreign nationals. So, what is government doing about? it Or
is it not necessarily the correct statement that was made by
the Minister?
That is in a nutshell the question that was asked.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, that is not in a nutshell. You are wrong.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: No, no, it’s not that. You are wrong now; you
are wrong ...
Setswana:
... ga ke is eke bue eo. Ga o bue nnete ...
English:
AN HON MEMBER (MALE): You are right, Chair. Thank you very
much ...


 
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Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, that is not our question
...
Mr K MOTSAMAI: No, no, Deputy President ...
Setswana:
... [Go sa utlwagale.] ga a bue selo seo ke neng ke se bua ...
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... get the interpretation to interpret to the
Deputy President ...
Setswana:
Rre K MOTSAMAI: ... ga a bue selo seo ke neng ke se bua ...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): But the
Deputy President on his side cannot hear the interpreter, that
is why ...
Setswana:
Rre K MOTSAMAI: Ee, fela ga a bue selo seo ke neng ke se bua
mos.


 
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English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Okay.
Setswana:
LELOKO LE LE TLOTLEGANG (MME): Motsamai, bua sekgoa. Akere o
rile o batla go bua sekgoa ...
Rre K MOTSAMAI: Nyaya, ga ke bue sekgoa nna, ke Motswana ...
LELOKO LE LE TLOTLEGANG (RRE): Nyaya, Dikeledi, ga o tsamaisi
kopano ya Ntlo. Dikeledi, ema gannyane!
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can the
interpreter ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can the
interpreter just ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chair, I’m raising hand.
There are rules of the House. I’m raising my hand in a very
disciplined manner, I’m not howling. I’m raising my hand, with


 
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respect, that the Deputy Chair should be allowed to chair the
proceedings. If I’m allowed I’m raising my hand.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Because
there’s no order ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m rising on a point of order ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): There is no
point of order. I’m asking Adv Phindela, you wanted to say?
Advocate?
Adv M PHINDELA: Deputy Chairperson, your question broadly is
as follows: The Minister recently stated that criminal
syndicates are led by foreign nationals. Was the Minister
speculating? If so, why not resolve this matter? Are these
statements not encouraging xenophobia in the country?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
Advocate.
Hon Deputy President, we are at last at the question. But I
want to apologise for the ruckus that went on there. Continue!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, well, I understand ...


 
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Ms M O MOKAUSE: Order, Chairperson. Wait. Hon Deputy
Chairperson, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): And the
order is?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not going to come here and call us
names in this sitting of the public ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I called no
one a name ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... we’ve got every right to ... [Inaudible.]
... you ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): ... and you
are out of order. That is no order ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... you must stop being upfront. Stop being
upfront with the languages we do not understand. It is not our
problem that there is no interpreting here ...


 
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): There is no
order. Hon Mokause, and you don’t have to shout. You don’t
have to shout ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m talking to you ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You don’t
have to shout. So, I will ... please, allow us to continue
with the meeting and we will request the Deputy president to
respond.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, well, we respect the
assertion by the Minister because from where the Minister is
sitting she can tell from looking at all the crimes that are
committed that most of the crimes in the case that foreign
nationals are involved.
But as government we want to say: crimes is a crime,
regardless who is committing the crime.
So, the law enforcement agencies’ duty is to arrest people who
are committing crime.


 
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So, the Department of Home Affairs’ duty is to ensure that
people who are here, in the country, their status must be
defined and they must be here legally. So, all those who are
here in the country undocumented, we trace them, we deport
them to their original countries.
Now, the challenge that we are putting to you is that we have
porous borders and we have identified those border posts where
we think the infrastructure there is so porous that it allows
people in and out as they wish. And we have set aside money to
upgrade that infrastructure.
But through the Border Management Agency we are now bringing a
combination of agencies, of departments, of institutions that
are going to enforce the law in our borders, working together
with the Department of Home Affairs and to ensure that these
borders are very seam lest; people don’t spend days and days
trying to cross the border because of our inability to process
them quickly. So, that is going to be addressed by this Border
Management Agency with all the relevant departments and the
countries in which we are sharing these borders with. So, that
problem is going to be dealt with.


 
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Again, the cross-border crimes, stock theft, car theft; the
Department of Police is dealing with those crimes and we are
arresting people that are involved because, in the main, even
communities in those border areas, are affected. Thank you
very much.
Question 4:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, most of the claims
lodged that were without conflict have been settled. The
commission is analysing all outstanding claims in order to
develop a project plan on how to settle them with immediate
effect.
There are various consultations between the commission and the
landowners to determine those who are willing to sell their
properties and those that are disputing the validity of the
claims.
For the landowners that have expressed a willingness to sell,
the commission has been directed to proceed with those claims
by commissioning the valuation of those properties in order to
arrive at a just and equitable compensation, as well as to
proceed with the settlement of such claims.


 
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Government remains committed to accelerating the resolution of
old-order claims. We want to reaffirm the view expressed
previously that Parliament has the responsibility to address
the shortcomings identified in the Constitutional Court
judgement with regard to the amendment of legislation in order
to allow for the reopening of land claims for restitution.
We need to remind ourselves and the people of South Africa
that the Constitutional Court in its judgement of 28 July 2016
on the matter of the Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Act,
did not reject the validity and correctness of the land reform
programme as a means to redress past land injustices. Instead,
it declared that Parliament failed to satisfy the obligation
to facilitate public involvement in accordance with section
72(1) of the Constitution.
The Inter-Ministerial Committee on Land Reform and agriculture
considered the implication of the Constitutional Court
judgement and advised the Commission on Restitution of Land
Rights to prioritise the settlement of old-order claims that
had been submitted by the first deadline of 31 December 1998.
The commission was further advised to consider various options
in the processing of the claims that will allow for claimants


 
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to opt for land redistribution or tenure security to avoid the
onerous requirements of proving past dispossession.
To support this process, government is prioritising the
resolution of administrative hurdles and all challenges that
are contributing to the slow pace of our land reform progress.
Among others, these include:
Firstly, the need to strengthen capacity and streamline
research and verification processes;
Secondly, making provision for additional human resources in
dealing with the backlog;
Thirdly, instituting effective processes for the resolution of
disputes, including conflicts among beneficiaries themselves,
through section 14 referrals to the Land Claims Court to
adjudicate on the claims that are under dispute; and
Lastly, dealing decisively with incidents of fraud and
corruption in the whole process, whenever detected.
Of the total 6 907 outstanding land claims, the provinces with
the bulk of claims are KwaZulu-Natal with 2 234 cases,


 
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Mpumalanga with 1 596 cases, Limpopo with 1 406 and the
Eastern Cape with 662.
Notwithstanding progress in the fast-tracking of these cases,
the reality is that the current fiscal conditions pose some
limitations on our ability to move with the necessary speed.
The independent financial forecasting projected that
approximately 65 billion will be required to settle all
outstanding old-order claims within a period of five years. It
would therefore be difficult to forecast on the 163 383 new-
order claims, as the commission has not conducted any analysis
because of the court order.
Nevertheless, we will continue to support the work of the
commission with the necessary resources available to fast-
track the settlement of the outstanding claims. Thank you,
Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson of the Council. Deputy
President, the sad reality brought by your party, the ANC,
since they took power in 1994, is that many of those who
lodged claims before the 1998 deadline have since died without
ever getting their land back; a clear sign of counter


 
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revolutionary ... and that of a party at war with the black
majority of South Africa. The delays in finalising land
restitution has a real impact on people traumatised by the
pain of land dispossession.
Deputy President, the reality is that many ANC leaders dished
... land amongst themselves and that includes you in the case
of Barberton. It is alleged that you literally knocked the
people of Barberton off their land. They were fighting for
what belongs to them.
What measures has your government put in place to deal with
corruption, amongst other things, which delays land claims
lodged between 2014 and 2016?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, I think we must dispel the notion
that I as Deputy President robbed people of their land. It’s
one thing that I can’t do. It stands against my conviction as
a person. I understand land dispossession and the pain that
people felt. I bought the land and the farm that I occupy
myself. It’s a smallholder farm which belongs to me. I’ve not
taken a farm from anyone.


 
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Again, we must acknowledge and accept the slow pace at which
we have dealt with the claims. There are reasons that we can
put for this delay as well as the slow pace. Firstly, any
claim needs to be investigated. We need to collaborate the
evidence that is given by the claimants with the features and
the landowners. In most cases, the landowners have dismissed
the claims, saying that there are no claims to their land
because they can also put a contrary historic story about the
ownership of that piece of land. That took a bit of time and
the verification process that is ... {Inaudible.] ... again
... Most parties have taken these matters to court and the
court process will delay ... and take its own process.
So yes, these were unforeseen circumstances that ... hurdles
that are before this process of restituting land to the
rightful claimants. Be that as it may, we have identified
those shortcomings and we are improving. We are capacitating
the commission with the relevant human resources and probably
the financial muscle to try and settle those claims. Like we
have said, where there is an agreement, they need to send the
Valuer-General to evaluate the land, and we settle.
So, we are also limited in terms of the availability of money
to settle all these claims at once, but of course ... the


 
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verification process and the landowners refusing to part with
the land. Thank you very much.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I just want to
bring to your attention that I raised my hand before the
Deputy President responded to the last part that was made by
hon Mokause. However, if you will permit me, I just want to
put it on record that we have said previously that hon members
of the House should not make such disparaging remarks in the
name of the Deputy President without a substantive motion. The
Deputy President has responded to the issue, but when we
started in the House ... dealt with the Rules and all of us
workshopped ... is to contribute to the integrity of the House
and the process of responding to questions or any other matter
that is tabled in the debates of the House. Thank you, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Chief Whip.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will have to move on, Mokause.
What is the point of order, Mokause?


 
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Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, the EFF has got no obligation
whatsoever to treat corrupt ANC leaders with soft gloves. So
whatever we say here ... [Inaudible.] ... ANC leaders are
corrupt and that’s a fact.
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes. Can I ...
An HON MEMBER: You are out of order, Mokause. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I ... [Inaudible.] Can I ask
Mokause ... Order! Order members! Mokause, can I at this point
ask you properly and nicely to withdraw that comment please?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: What must I withdraw, Chair? That ANC people
are corrupt? I’m not going to.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s fine if raised in the
context of a debate. There’s absolutely no problem with that
...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson?


 
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... but I think that we must stop
being insensitive and when a very valid point is raised about
a substantive motion ... go to extremes and say all sorts of
things. So, I’m asking you to withdraw the remark about
corrupt ANC leaders and so on because if you want to ...
[Inaudible.] ... corruption and you want to make the comments
that you are making and so on, you are free and you have the
right to put the motion in front of the House. We’ll then have
a debate. However, I think that the remark you’ve just made
now is not in keeping with the type of atmosphere and conduct
that is expected, especially in relation to the dignity of the
House. So, I’m asking you to withdraw the remark.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, thank you very much. The country
South Africa is where it is today because of corruption ANC
leaders. [Interjections.] Ordinary people are without water,
sanitation and housing. That is corruption that has actually
... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... by ANC leaders. I’m not
withdrawing anything. ANC leaders are corrupt and that’s it.
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m giving you a warning, and if
you don’t want to withdraw I’ll ask you very soon to leave the
House.


 
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An HON MEMBER: But Chairperson, what is wrong with stating
facts.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’ve not given you an opportunity
to speak. Why are you speaking, member? I’ve not said you
should speak. Mokause?
An HON MEMBER: Can I speak, Chairperson?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): No, you are
rude. You are not speaking. Raise your hand.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mokause, are you withdrawing the
remark?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m here, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mokause, you are the only one I’m
allowing to speak. Please proceed.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, ANC leaders are corrupt. We are
where we are at ... [Inaudible.]


 
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I’m asking you to leave the
House. Thank you very much.
An HON MEMBER: Hamba! [Go!] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will now proceed ...
[Inaudible.] ... Order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: I’m raising a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon De Bruyn?
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chair. [Inaudible.]
[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, there are hands on the platform.
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Sorry, hon De Bruyn. The person
who is supposed to speak now is hon Smit ... the second
follow-up question.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, point of order. [Interjections.]


 
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit?
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Chairperson.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, we are raising a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, what’s the point of order?
An HON MEMBER: Yes, why is hon Mokause removed from the House
when she is raising ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.] ... that’s not a
point of order. Thank you very much. That’s not a point of
order. [Interjections.] We proceed to the second follow-up
question by hon Smit.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, you are abusing power.
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit? Hon Smit?
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, on a point of order.


 
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Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, it’s very difficult to speak when
a lot of people are speaking ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed.
Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, right. Sorry, let me just get to
my question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit, please proceed.
Mr C F B SMIT: I’m continuing, Chair. The Department of
Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development recently
ignored requests from the DA for a detailed database of all
land restitution claims that have been submitted and finalised
since 1994. This has alleged us to conclude that such a
crucial database does not exist. As Leader of Government
Business, can the Deputy President commit to this House that
he will advise Minister Thoko Didiza to allow Members of
Parliament to have access to records and/or a database of all
land restitution claims that have been processed in South
Africa to date? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson. We are going to
assist the House to get the database ... all the information


 
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that you require in terms of the claims that were settled. We
will forward it to the House so that members can have that
information available.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy President,
other than the validity of the land claims, does the relevant
... [Inaudible] ... take into account the ability of claimants
of that restitution to productively make use of the land to
help ensure food security and economic growth, and if so, how
will the department assist these claimants to successfully
utilise the land after they have received it in a sustainable
manner for the foreseeable future in the best interests of all
South Africans? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think this is a valid
concern. It has been raised many times with government ... to
say all the people who have benefitted ... land ... land
that’s been restituted to them ... redistributed to them ...
they don’t have the ability to till the land and to ensure
that the land given to them is productive.
As government, the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and
Rural Development has developed postsettlement support to all
restituted and redistributed farms, including the farms that


 
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we have leased to individuals, so that we show that we support
them to till the land.
Now, this integrated postsettlement support ... the farmer
support is going to be delivered at a district level where
national, provincial and municipal councils will be part and
parcel of that platform where we give integrated support to
all our farmers to till that land. Thank you very much.
Ms M L MOSHODI: Thanks very much, hon Chairperson and thank
you, hon Deputy President, for your response to the question.
Hon Deputy President, I am sure that you will concede that
land claims by its nature involves conflict, negotiations and
sometimes tedious and long legal battles.
In the light of this, hon Deputy President, to what extent are
the set timeframes and cost estimations realistic, and is
there a plan by the executive to regularly update Parliament
on progress on the matter? Thank you very much, hon Chair and
hon Deputy President.
Sesotho:
Ke a leboha.


 
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson. Yes, the Inter-
Ministerial Committee on Land Reform and the department will
continue to provide progress updates on the matter. As
highlighted in our response, there is a need on our side to
strengthen our capacity to accelerate the finalisation of all
outstanding claims. The Commission on Restitution of Land
Rights has developed a backlog reduction strategy to ensure
that government accelerates all outstanding claims that were
lodged before 31 December 1998.
Of course, the reality is that the current fiscal constraints
are posing a serious limitation on our ability to move with
the necessary speed. It has been projected that almost
65 billion will be required to settle all outstanding claims.
However, we are prepared to update the House on an ongoing
basis in terms of the costs — because the costs are not static
— and the progress that we are making.
We are also committing ourselves ... that all settled claims
... the people that have been given land in terms of the
restitution programme and people who have been given land
through the redistribution programme ... that information will
be available for members to peruse. Thank you very much.


 
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Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the Moral Regeneration
Movement continues to do its best in implementing a range of
programmes in support of a broader social cohesion agenda in
our country. This movement exists to contribute in building
communities grounded on positive values, and to ensure that we
rededicate ourselves in building a caring society in pursuit
of lasting peace and prosperity in our country.
We should always be mindful that moral regeneration extends
beyond just one entity. It is a societal obligation to all of
us. Therefore, the question should not just be what the Moral
Regeneration Movement has done. Rather, the question should
focus on our individual and collective responsibility as
public representatives, political parties, civil society,
business and all other sectors of society in trying to
rekindle the moral fabric of our society given the history of
this country.
As government leading a country with a fractured past and
divergent views on the path ahead, we recognise the important
force of moral regeneration in pursuit of nation building and
social cohesion. These ideals are informed by some elements
perpetuated by the past apartheid system that we seek to undo.


 
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Within this context, the work of the Moral Regeneration
Movement forms an integral part of our efforts on building
social cohesion.
In terms of the programmatic interventions led by the Moral
Regeneration Movement, these are informed by the charter of
positive values which itself is an expanded version of the
founding values of the Constitution. In promoting these
positive values, the Moral Regeneration Movement uses
platforms of dialogue to build and advance social cohesion
within communities.
As part of ongoing work being implemented by the Moral
Regeneration Movement, there are various initiatives such as
the promotion of the Charter of Positive Values across various
institutions; ethical leadership programme for public office-
bearers which includes the induction of newly elected
municipal councillors; strengthening of the response to
gender-based violence and femicide through the integration of
the National Strategic Plan on HIV, TB and sexual transmitted
infections, STIs, the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based
Violence and Femicide; and the implementation of the men and
boys’ social behaviour change programmes in partnership with
the men’s sector of the SA National Aids Council and the


 
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Department of Social Development and pledges between
traditional and Khoi-San leaders, interfaith leaders,
traditional health practitioners and government to work
together in scaling up interventions against all social ills,
gender-based violence and femicide, child abuse, teenage
pregnancy and interventions under the SA National Aids
Council, SANAC, to end HIV and TB as public health threats.
Hon Chairperson, despite numerous challenges confronting our
country, such as deep inequality, racial intolerance, high
incidents of gender-based violence and femicide, high rates of
teenage pregnancy and many other social ills, we still can
attain the goal of a united and cohesive society. This can
only be achieved through honest commitment by all and active
partnership that is grounded on strong social compacts with
all sectors of society. It remains incumbent upon all of us to
continue playing our part in making a positive contribution in
building a united and economically inclusive South Africa.
The Deputy President as a patron of the movement plays an
active part of ensuring support to these efforts of the
movement. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu M NHANHA: Sihlalo, bendibhalile ke apha kwi ...


 
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English:
... chat box ...
IsiXhosa:
... ndacela ukuba uSekela Mongameli azilungiselele, kuba
umbuzo wam ndiza kuwubuza ngesiXhosa. Sekela Mongameli,
kuyandikhwankqisa kwaye kundothusa kodwa ndinethemba lokuba
umbuzo wam wokuqala ebendiwubuzile othi, ...
English:
... out of 10 ...
IsiXhosa:
... xa uzigocagoca njengomfo wakwaMabuza, ingaba uzibona
ukulungele kusini na ukukhokela le ntshukumo inkulu kangaka
kwilizwe loobaw’omkhulu? Ndinethemba lokuba ke xa undiphendula
Sekela Mongameli uzakunyathela kuloo ndawo.
Sihlalo weNCOP, umbuzo wam wokugqibela kuSekela Mongameli
uchaphazela umcimbi wolwaphulo-mthetho kwilizwe
loobaw’omkhulu. Ngenene ulwaphulo-mthetho lugcwele indawo
yonke kweli lizwe. Ingaba wena njengomgcini okanye inxili yale
ntshukumo ibaluleke kangaka, uyaluthatha uxanduva kusini na


 
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lwazo zonke izinto ezifedileyo ebekumele ukuba zenziwe yile
ntshukhumo? Enkosi.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I
am sure that I have heard the question.
IsiZulu:
Nami ngizozama ukuphendula njengesiXhosa ngizofaka nesiZulu.
Cha, imisebenzi yonke esiyenzayo thina lapha kule nhlangano i-
Moral Degeneration Movement nalabo abayikhokhelayo
iyabonakala. Mina ngiyayibona imisebenzi abayenzayo kodwa ke
le nhlangano ifuna wonke umuntu abambe iqhaza. Sengisho ukuthi
asikwazi thina sonke sihlale sibheke nje abantu abayishumi
ukuthi bangashintsha ...
English:
... the course and the direction the country is going to
take.
IsiZulu:
Manje ke bayawenza umsebenzi futhi abanayo nemali eningi
yokubiza imihlangano leyo. Yingakho ke besebenzisana
neMinyango efana noMnyango Wezempilo, uMnyango Wokuthuthukiswa


 
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Komphakathi ngoba yilapho kukhona khona izinto eziningi
ezihlupha imiphakathi. Mina ke esigabeni sabantu esibasizayo,
abantu esikhuluma nabo ukuthi basho ukuthi umsebenzi wethu
uyabagculisa noma awubagculisi.
Sisebenzile naMakhosi esifundazweni esifana neKwaZulu-Natali,
neMpumalanga kanye neLimpopo lapho sibe nemihlangano
naMakhosi, abezenkolo kanye nabaholi abalapha ngokwendabuko.
Sikhulumisene namadoda esicabanga ukuthi kufanele asisize
ukulwisana nokuhlukunyezwa kwamalungelo abantu besifazane
nabantwana. Sikhulumisene namadoda nabaholi bendabuko,
nabezenkolo ngokukhulelwa kwabantwana. Yingako sithi thina
silwisana nazo zonke izinkinga ezihlupha umphakathi wakithi.
Kuzodinga thina sonke sibambane sikhulume ngezwi linye ukuthi
la uma sibona into engathi ihlupha noma ithikameza umphakathi,
siyisukumele futhi siyikhulume.
Sibakhulumisile abaholi bezenkolo ukuthi ngaphakathi
emasontweni abangayivumeli into yokuthi abantwana bakhulelwe,
abantu badliswe utshana, futhi baphuziswe izinto ezingekho
emthethweni. Kuyilungelo labo ukuthi njengabaholi bezenkolo
basukume bagxeke konke lokhu okwenzeka emphakathini.
Sisebenzisana kahle nabo bonke. Siyasebenzisana nezifundazwe,
i-Moral Degeneration Movement isebenzisana nazo zonke


 
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izifundazwe. Inawo amagatsha kuzo zonke izifundazwe lapho
sibambisana khona ukulwisana nazo zonke izinto ezihlupha
umphakathi. Ngakho ke nawe ungasebenzisa ingqondo yakho
ukwahlulela amaphuzu ukuthi imisebenzi yethu uyibona
iyaphumelela noma ayiphumeleli. Kodwa ungakhohlwa ukuthi nawe
ngifuna uzahlulele amaphuzu, uzinikeze amaphuzu ukuthi wena
wenzeni ngaphambi kokuthi wahlulele abanye abantu. Ngiyabonga.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, greeting to you. My follow-up
question to the hon Deputy President is in light of the
recently published report by the judicial commission of
inquiry into allegation of state capture, fraud and corruption
in the public sector. What interventions is Cabinet making in
promoting moral regeneration within the public sector to avoid
the levels of state capture we have seen? Thank you, hon
Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. With regard
to the state capture report, the reports that have been
published and the ones that are still outstanding, the
President will finally make a view and we will present to
Parliament on how best is going to be handled – the report and
its recommendations. That is going to take its own shape and
we are going to be informed in due course. But generally, I


 
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think the essence of the question is that all of us as
society, as leaders and as political parties we must continue
to condemn corruption. We must work together to prevent
corruption wherever it emerges. In the three spheres of
government we must work together to prevent corruption. It is
not only in the public service where we must prevent
corruption, but even in the private sector because we believe
that this corruption happens between the private and the
public sectors.
As we are trying to rebuild our values, positive values, our
contribution to nation building and social cohesion we must
condemn all forms of corruption that would seek to undermine
the values that we so cherish as a society. We must also
ensure that all those that are going against, that continue to
perpetrate corruption are successfully prosecuted. That’s why
we encourage all community members to report whatever kind of
corruption that they may detect, that they might see, to the
law enforcement agencies. It’s one thing to talk about
corruption in public platforms, but it is another thing to act
to prevent and deal with corruption. Thank you very much.
Ms M N GILLION: Thank you, Chairperson and greeting to the
Deputy President. I need to thank the Deputy President for


 
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answering our questions. Hon Deputy President, amongst the
many initiatives of Moral Regeneration Movement in July 2021,
the Moral Regeneration Movement marked the Moral Regeneration
Month which was geared towards encouraging people to recommits
of building communities grounded on positive values and
rededicate themselves to building a caring society in pursuit
of creating lasting peace and prosperity in the country.
Because moral regeneration is a societal issue, what is the
roles of the families from unities, leaders and members of all
organisations to build progressive values and morality? I
thank you, Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Hon Chairperson.
Our approach as government to moral regeneration should
appreciate that the family remains an important unit for any
country that apires to develop and grow. It is at the family
level where we can inculcate ethical and cultural values of
ubuntu that is required in building national unity, respect
for life, respect for property, building a sense of community
security, building patriotism and nationhood.
It is the family that carries the primary responsibility for
the education, socialisation of children as well as instilling


 
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values of citizenship and belonging to a society. Where people
develop antisocial behaviours and lack of respect for societal
rule, the family as a unit will step in and counsel against
such behaviours as they undermine the cohesion of the broader
society. That is why as government we provide the possibility
and the possible extent social insecurity interventions in
order to shelter the vulnerable children, people with
disabilities and the elderly from socioeconomic exclusion and
ensure that they have food on the table. If people do not feel
a sense of belonging, if people do not feel safe and if people
don’t feel loved, they don’t feel the obligated to respect
societal values.
Yes, I agree with the hon member that as much as we put family
unit at the centre of our efforts as a country to build social
cohesion, we must as leaders in our different political
parties and all sectors in our society work together to
inculcate these positive values and strengthen the work of the
family as a basic unit of our society. Thank you very much.
Mr T APLENI: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Deputy
President, the governing party has been plucked by corruption
and abuse of power since it assumed office in 1994. Details of
these were laid bare by the Zondo commission into the state


 
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capture which showed how deep corruption had taken root in the
ANC. Can the Deputy President of such a party therefore be
entrusted with carrying out the various interventions needed
by the movement? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
The governing party which is leading government, the ANC, is
not corrupt. It is individual leaders that are found to be in
conflict with the law. Those individual leaders as the ANC we
took a decision that we are not going to conceal their
activities. We are not going to protect anyone who has
committed a crime, and who has stolen money from the public.
It’s a very noble stand that we have taken as the ruling party
- not to protect those of our own that have done wrong. We
want to stand on the right side of the law and ensure that
society is protected.
All those leaders within the governing party, within your
party and within all parties that are corrupt, must face the
mighty of the law. We must not seek to protect them and we
must not seek to shield them from the law enforcement
agencies. We must as responsible citizens take the necessary
steps and report corruption where corruption is seen, where
corruption is detected. I said it is one thing to talk about


 
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corruption and it is another thing to be seen working to
eliminate corruption entirely in our society. Thank you very
much.
Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, in line with
the Intergovernmental Relations Framework that is implemented
through the President’s Co-ordinating Council and Makgotla,
the President continues to bring all spheres of government
together to make South Africa a better place.
We thus confirm that the implementation of the Economic
Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is being co-ordinated across
all spheres of government.
At the level of national government, the implementation of the
Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is co-ordinated by
the ministerial economic sectors, investment, employment and
infrastructure development cluster, to ensure uniformity and
consistency in its implementation across all provinces and
state-owned entities.
Where gaps are identified in the implementation process, the
Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has


 
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facilitated a number of engagements across government and
state entities, and is working with relevant stakeholders to
ensure closer alignment in this regard.
There are also ongoing assessments of national and provincial
government’s contribution to the achievement of the plan’s
interventions, as well as the spatial location of projects
that are outlined in the plan based on annual performance
plans of government departments.
From the interactions between national and provincial
government, there is identification of areas of alignment
between the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan
priorities and Provincial Growth and Development Strategies of
the different provinces. Amongst others, these interactions
have been focused on providing clarity on the four priority
interventions of the plan which are: Embarking on a massive
roll-out of infrastructure; rapidly expanding the country’s
energy generation capacity; implementing large-scale job
interventions to support livelihoods; and driving industrial
growth.
The ongoing assessment also looks into the review of
regulations that may inhibit the speedy roll-out of priority


 
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programmes as outlined in the plan. This seeks to review and
address policy and regulatory matters; to reduce cost of doing
business through modernisation of visa application processes;
to enhance tourism; and transforming network industries,
including electricity, water, and transport and digital
communications.
The work on reviewing policy and regulatory matters will be
co-ordinated in partnership with provincial and local spheres
of government, where implementation of developmental
programmes and delivery of services takes place.
In this regard, the President announced during the State of
the Nation Address our focus on creating an enabling
environment through the creation of a Red Tape Reduction
Office, which will be located in the President’s Office.
Some of the tangible outcomes are interventions related to
improving access to digital television broadcasting and
communication services by the Department of Communications and
Digital Technologies. This is on reducing the digital divide
and the release of high demand spectrum that have been taken
on board in provincial planning.


 
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The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition is working
closely with provincial governments on efforts of repurposing
South Africa’s manufacturing sector towards strategic
location.
There is a lot more work that lies ahead before we get the
country on the full path of economic recovery. The recent
gross domestic product, GDP, results by Statistics SA presents
a glimmer of hope, with the country’s economy said to have
grown by 4,9% in 2021 compared to 2020 where we saw a decrease
of 6,4%.
We just have to work harder and act now to reverse existential
challenges we confronted prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
those that are resultant from the pandemic.
Just as the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan was
developed by social partners through intense consultations,
let us therefore continue to build on this strength of working
together across all divides to defeat unemployment, poverty
and inequality. Thank you very much.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you very much, Deputy President for
your response to my question. It was detailed. Are there any


 
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examples of positive outcomes with regard to economic
programme based on the conditions of different spheres of
government in the implementation of Economic Reconstruction
and Recovery Plan? Are there any practicalities that you can
give to us, President? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, one example
is the Presidential Employment Stimulus that has supported
close to 700 000 opportunities across a range of programmes
through the creation of new work opportunities, the protection
of existing jobs in vulnerable sectors, and support for
livelihoods.
As part of the Presidential Employment Stimulus initiative, a
number of subsistence farmers have retained their productive
capacity and provided much-needed security for households.
The rollout of these programmes have been done in partnership
with the Solidarity Fund, the National House of Traditional
and Khoi-San Leaders and Provincial Departments of
Agriculture.
About 40 000 farmers were supported through the Solidarity
Fund and the National House of Traditional and Khoi-San


 
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Leaders. An additional 53 000 farmers were supported through
the national and provincial departments-driven initiative.
As part of regulatory reform, an Independent Communications
Authority of SA, Icasa, has reported good news on the
auctioning of the licenses for state-controlled airwaves and
we are pleased that the process has surpassed its initial
target. This will support the lowering of the cost of data,
improving broadband coverage and speed, including our rural
reforms.
On the infrastructure front, the fast-tracking of phase one of
Umzimvubu Water Project located in the Eastern Cape, which
includes the construction of Ntabelanga, Lalelani and Mbokazi
dams which are set to supply water to thousands of households
in the OR Tambo, Joe Gqabi and Alfred Nzo districts
respectively. This projects will improve water supply to rural
areas within the province and provide much-needed employment
opportunities to the local communities.
The upscaling the Welisizwe rural bridges programme to deliver
95 bridges a year from the current 14 in in progress. These
are some of the initiatives that are there in our
reconstruction and development programme that I can highlight.


 
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IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Sekela Mongameli, kulezi
zinhlelo obukade usitshela ngazo namhlanje kungabe zikhona
yini ezokusungula izinkampani zikaHulumeni ezizokwazi ukuletha
nokwenza amathuba emisebenzi kulaba bantu abangu-11 million
esinabo la eNingizimu Afrika abangasebenzi? Uma zikhona
zithini izinhlelo onazo? Ngiyabonga kakhulu.
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga, ngiyabonga, Sihlalo,
esingakusho nje ukuthi, sasishilo ukuthi kulolu hlelo
lokubuyisela sifuna ukuqiniseka ukuthi ...
English:
... our industrial capacity is being scaled up so that we can
support manufacturing, especially in the economic zones that
have been identified in the different provinces, Limpopo,
Mpumalanga and Free State, where the Department of Trade,
Industry and Competition is working together with provinces to
try and develop those economic zones and allow Small, Medium,
and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, to utilize that space so that
they can start manufacturing different kinds of products so
that they can grow their companies and their potential.


 
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We hope that in the process, when these economic zones are
fully functional as supported by the provincial and national
governments will be in a position to make a dent with regard
to the unemployment figures that the hon member has cited. We
are also assisting on companies and giving them grants to try
and employ young people so that they can get experience. When
you employ young people, government will give you a grant so
that you give them an opportunity to gain the necessary
experience.
The Presidential Employment Stimulus initiative has worked so
well because we have managed to create more than 700 000 jobs.
We are utilising different tools and different platforms to
try and address the unemployment challenge that we are facing
as a country. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Mr Deputy President, as no economy
can thrive without decent and sustainable infrastructure, how
will the Economic Restructuring and Recovery Plan address the
issue of South African’s dilapidated infrastructure and what
investments will be made in infrastructure? Thank you,
Chairperson.


 
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, as we have stated,
hon member, that Cabinet has approved the Infrastructure
Investment Plan 2050, indicating a wide range of projects that
are going to be undertaken. These infrastructure projects are
meant to enhance the economy and to facilitate economic
development like projects that are aimed at improving our
energy generation capacity as a country and also allowing
municipalities to generate energy; projects that are meant to
deal with our road infrastructure so that we can gain access,
people can move, companies can move their products form one
point to the other; projects like investment in water
infrastructure so that water for industrial use and water for
domestic use can be easily accessed in abundance.
We are also putting more money with regard to the maintenance
of infrastructure to accelerate movement. In our rural areas,
we have identified rural roads and bridges that will enable
mobility people whether they are going to school or going to
access social facilities or moving their commodities as they
do business. This is all meant to facilitate movement of
people. We think that these interventions are going to
facilitate our speedy recovery and allow more and more of our
people to be economically active once again. Thank you very
much.


 
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Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much, Chairperson, Deputy
President, good afternoon, we are told you don’t really like
coming to Parliament, but most of us are friendly and nice and
you can start to relax now as this is the last question for
you, today.
Deputy President here is the Economic Restructuring and
Recovery Plan that is 38 pages long. It is not rocket science.
Energy and energy security have been mentioned 20 times in the
document. We talk about a capable state and yet we find
ourselves where we were experiencing load shedding again just
last week. I accept that Eskom is going through restructuring,
but there seems to be a total lack of urgency and an under
appreciation of the level of anger amongst South Africans. The
impact of load shedding on our economy, especially stage 3 and
higher is profound.
The original question from hon Mthethwa related to engaging
all spheres of government around the Economic Restructuring
and Recovery Plan, ERRP. Local government uses electricity
margins to cost subsidise service delivery. Businesses need
electricity so that they can manufacture or trade, which then
allows them to pay rates and taxes, a tax to government, and
to create jobs.


 
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Deputy President, what is being done to deal with load
shedding? When can we expect to see tangible impact of the
restructuring that is happen at Eskom? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, I think the
concern is well placed. We understand the hardship and the
suffering our people are going through on daily basis as a
result of load shedding. We must also appreciate the attempts
on the side of government to try and close that gap and
probably ramp up our generation capacity.
We have allowed the Independent Power Producers, IPPs, to
enter the space and we have allowed bid window three, four and
five. All those projects and in the process of construction.
Some of them have joined the grid while some them are giving
not enough electricity to offset load shedding.
The two brand new power stations, Kusile and Medupi, are still
having some technical glitches. They are not working as
expected. I am sure with the passage of time; all those
technical glitches will be resolved.
We have also allowed municipalities to generate their own
electricity where there is capacity. I am sure those efforts


 
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will take long to be realized. We have opened the playing
field wide enough to allow different players to come into the
fray and assist in electricity generation.
We have also allowed business to generate electricity up to
100 megawatts. That is very sufficient to carry along their
businesses and to continue to be in production.
All these efforts aren’t going to be an overnight event. They
aren’t going to necessarily give us energy by tomorrow. Our
aging power stations that are coal-powered still continue to
give us problems in terms of maintenance and they are not
reliable enough with regards to securing power for the
country. The unplanned outages in those power stations are
more than the planned outages, which disrupts any plan by the
Eskom leadership to provide reliable electricity to the whole
country.
We must as government apologise for all these hiccups that
disrupts the lives of ordinary people and businesses. We are
committing ourselves. We are on recovery path and we are going
to deal with our energy situation and restore the country into
its full potential.


 
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We understand very well that energy is one of the components
that we need in order for this economy to recover. Water is
one component that we need in order for this economy to grow.
That we understand well and good. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy
President. Hon members and delegates, I would like to take
this opportunity to express their appreciation to the Deputy
President for availing himself to answer question by and from
members. [Applause.]
The Council adjourned at 16:26.


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