Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 16 Mar 2022

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID) [GHC]

The House met at 15:00.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we request you to keep your masks on and to sit at your designated area. Thank you very much. Okay, let me go through this. The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 3, which is Governance. There are four supplementary questions on each question, and parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose, and this was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocation opportunities for questions, the principle of fairness, amongst others, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Members
asking supplementary questions or raising points of order may remain seated when doing so.

The first question has been asked by the hon D R Direko to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Just a quick qualifier, we are requesting you when you are in the House to remain seated. All it means really is that both seated in the House and on virtual platform should await being recognised before talking. That is essentially what it means, really. That means ...
IsiZulu:
... siyalawuleka la eNdlini.
English:
I have been informed that the Minister will be answering questions through the virtual platform. Hon Minister?


 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Good afternoon Deputy Speaker and all the hon members. The answer to the first question is that, first of all, there was only one municipality that was under section 139(7). And what we have done to assist those municipalities that had unfunded budgets – as you know that the budget issues are really under Treasury. So, National Treasury and provincial treasury deal with this matter, but we also participate to align with the integrated development plans.

Then, an assessment was done, municipality by municipality, and they were assisted to redo their budgets and make sure that in their redone budgets, they also include how they are going to pay the arrears to us from to the water boards, to pension funds, and so on. This process was done and in February it was then completed. Of course there has to be a council resolution that shows thatthey are willing to stick to the proper budgeting process. So the equitable share was only withheld in December after all this was done. And then in February, some of the municipalities whose budgets had been corrected, their equitable share was restored. The Treasury, both national and provincial will also monitor that everything is going well.
But, we are also having plans to establish a rapid response teams that would go to the municipalities to assist them. The municipal infrastructure grant which builds municipalities were not able to be utilise and the money was being returned.
We have now, working with Treasury, agreed that those municipalities that are not able to spend the funds halfway through, we will reallocate the funds to the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa. The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent will work with the municipality to implement the projects that they want implemented. In some of the municipalities, like in the ones that are under section 139(7), we have sent a planner and an engineer. Treasury has sent an administrator and we are working together with the municipalities to assist them. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. The first supplementary question is asked by the hon Direko.



Ms D R DIREKO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, we really
appreciate your response which gave more information on what
we needed. However, we understand that budget is the
responsibility of the municipal council, but in some of our
municipalities, we are failing to stick to proper budgeting
processes hence they are still adopting unfunded budgets. So,
I would like to check with you if there is any formal co-
ordinated programme between the national Department of Co-
operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Treasury to
assist such municipalities in this regard, by adopting the
budget that is funded. Where the budget is not funded, is
there any plans in place to assist these municipalities to
ensure that they stick to what they have instead of budgeting
for what they don’t have. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Direko. First of all, let me
say that following all these processes, we as Department of
Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs are going to
be engaging these municipalities. We will send the hon Direko
the schedule of the municipalities that the departmental
officials would be visiting to assist them so that in the next
budget cycle, they are able to budget better. The visits start
on 22nd, and we are going to be visiting 43 municipalities. We


 
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hope that these visits will assist so that in the next cycle
the budgeting will be better. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. The next
supplementary question is asked by the hon C Brink.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. In reference to
municipalities in distress, one of the big problem is often
that there is lack of clarity on what administrators are
permitted to do in relation to the council, to the mayor and
to the municipal manager. It’s been almost a decade since a
draft intergovernmental Support, Monitoring and Intervention
Bill was first prepared. Minister, when can we expect
government to bring a Bill of this nature to Parliament so
that there can be clarity on what administration actually
means? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker and the hon
Brink. The Bill is almost ready. We have to take it to
Cabinet, but before we take it to Cabinet it has to be
certified by the state law advisers and then also to get the
social impact report. So, that is what we are doing now. As


 
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soon as we get those reports it will go to Cabinet, then from
there - you know the process, hon Brink.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. The third
supplementary question is asked by the hon Majozi.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Please allow me to
keep my video off. My network is very bad. It keeps on logging
me off. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, the President of the
Republic during his Sona debate response emphasised the
statement by the hon M M Hlengwa saying that since all
development is local, municipalities should be empowered
through increased budget allocation to meet the demands of
development. I appreciate your response; it gives a clear
picture of how far you have gone. But what I would like to
know is what other measures has government implemented since
then to enact the above statement by the President as water
delivery, sanitation and treatment remain a problem throughout
the country. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Majozi. It is true that
water is a problem in the country. We are working closely with
the Minister of Water and Sanitation. The Minister of Water


 
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and Sanitation has gone round almost the entire country,
looking at the problems and he is putting together a plan,
working together with the district municipalities to assist
them. I know, for instance, we were just discussing about a
week and a half ago with him on the issues of Jozini where
there is a dam but people don’t have water.
We discussed the plan, and the plan was that, amongst other
things, he is going to get the water board to assist the
district municipalities to make sure that water is reticulated
properly to communities. So, yes, he is making those plans
district by district. There is work that is being done. It is
not the only district, there is also Modimolle. There are a
number of them that he has put plans into, and he is
continuing to put plans in place to ensure that this water
issue is solved. And where there is no source of water, we are
also working together- sometimes using Misa as well in the
meantime to dig boreholes that can supply the water. So, a lot
of work has been done. But as I say, we are working with the
authorities that are there for water, like water and
sanitation in districts. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. The next
supplementary question is asked by the hon Groenewald.


 
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Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. It is happening
more and more that municipalities do not comply with
legislation and as a result service delivery is neglected or
there is no service delivery at all. But it is the core
function of municipalities, yet in terms of the code of
conduct for councillors, no councillor may vote against the
existing legislation. By proving an unfunded budget, it is in
controversial with the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA.
National Treasury funded unfunded budget and it is such a
material contravention of legislation and they are withholding
equitable share payments. Do the Minister know of any
competent management that the ANC as the ruling party
implemented against its councillors that approved such
unfunded budgets? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you, I thought I was here as the Minister of
Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and not as
ANC’s disciplinary committee. But let me say to the hon
Groenewald that we do talk to the political parties because
indeed a lot of problems has to do with the behaviour of the
councillors and councils. We talk to them, and as you know, we
also have a legislation now that says that if a councillor is
found to have acted wrongly, they cannot be re-elected within


 
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two years of that incident. So, yes, we are doing something to
actually do what the hon Groenewald is saying about
consequence management. We also talk to the ANC and also other
parties. Thank you.
Question 145:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Shaik Emam ... I think your
question ... just give me one moment I have mixed up the
questions here. Just one moment here, Chair. The question of
hon Emam is about whether we will ensure that local government
structures establish comprehensive central database in terms
of tenders issue and contracts and names of people?
We will not do that because Treasury already has that kind of
database in their e-portal. Municipalities are required to
publish the tenders and contracts on their own websites and on
notice boards. They are also required to create list of names
of companies to whom they have awarded the tenders. However,
the tenders and the awarding of tenders is dealt with by
Treasury not us, that is why the e-portal for that is
administered by Treasury. Thank you.


 
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, what
prompts me to ask this question – and I do understand that it
is administered by Treasury – but I also think it falls to the
co-operative governance for the purposes of good governance.
Now, we know what is happening at the local government level.
There is a lot of lobbying going on between political parties,
monies are changing hands and tenders are being given where
private sector is funding the political parties. There is a
whole lot going on where we are not getting value for money.
So, what I am asking - and this is not being available and it
is not being published – is that local government, all spheres
of government wherever there is procurement, let us be
transparent. Let us let the public in those areas of
advertising know what is going on and what you pay for per
item. So, you know for the purpose of examination you have to
pay R9,99 or R999,00. You know, it is estimated that we lose
hundreds of billions of rands in this country. Thank you,
Minister.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. We will indeed discuss again
with our Treasury colleagues because I was under the
impression that their e-portal does work and does have this


 
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database. However, if there is a problem I will talk to my
colleague so that it becomes available.
I do agree that we need to be transparent about it. In some
countries, you just go into a municipality and on the notice
board you can see everything, you even see projects that are
still ongoing; see how far they are, how much they are costing
and who is doing them. I think we must also go towards that
kind of a situation where we really are transparent.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, I
will not give you unsolicited advice about the quality of your
notifications, please, switch them off. My ear is very
musical. I love music but yours is not quite, if I may say so.
Just switch it off, please. [Laughter.]
Mr G G MPUMZA: Thank you, hon Speaker. May you allow me to
keep my video off.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead and call me Deputy Speaker.
Mr G G MPUMZA: Oh! Deputy Speaker. Sorry, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Sir.


 
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Mr G G MPUMZA: Hon Minister, municipalities are required to
publish supply chain management contracts on their websites in
line with section 75 of the Municipal Finance Management Act,
MFMA. Additional to that they are required to publish the
description of goods and services and infrastructure projects
as well as bids and the Broad-Based Black Economic
Empowerment, B-BBEEs, status level of all contribution of the
bidders. With reference to the response given to question
number 363 of 30 November 2021, has the hon Minister taken
steps to ensure that in the interest of transparency all the
relevant procurement information is published by all
municipalities including on expansion and deviations? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. Hon Mpumza is correct.
Municipalities are supposed to do that and transactions are
also supposed to be reported to the Treasury as I have said.
However, in our future plans of the structure that we are
requesting, we will have people who will be based in provinces
fulltime who will be able to monitor and assist municipalities
if they have network problems to deal with those issues so
that indeed everyone does do what they are supposed to do.


 
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Last night I was even checking, quite a number of them, maybe
I did not check all of them obviously do publish on their
website, but we will make sure that we work with Treasury that
that happens. Thank you.
Mr W M THRING: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, it
is an open secret that some 50% or so of our municipalities
are struggling to function as going concerns and or are
dysfunctional. This can also be verified by the numerous
reports of the Auditor-General on the status of our
municipalities.
Now, in the light of this, what is your department doing? How
will your department prepare, support and hold accountable
those municipalities that do not comply with municipal and
national legislation pertaining to the databases for tenders
and contracts awarded to the companies and or individuals?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. As I said earlier that this
particular function falls under Treasury because the Municipal
Finance Management Act, MFMA, is a legislation that is
administered by Treasury. Nevertheless, we do try and work


 
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together with Treasury and the responsibility for that falls
under Treasury.
As I earlier said that for a start we will be visiting 43
municipalities amongst which are those which are
dysfunctional, in fact, most of them. The reason for us to
dispatch officials to go to the municipalities is to precisely
try and sit with them and assist. We are also working with
South African Local Government Association, Salga, and the
school of governance to ensure that capacity is built within
the municipalities. Of course, municipalities must also employ
people who are properly qualified. If they do not employ
people who are properly qualified for the job, that is where
sometimes things go wrong. Thank you.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker,
in 2018, the Matlosana Municipality procured a new accounting
system at a great cost to the taxpayers of Matlosana. This
accounting system could not be implemented though taxpayers’
money was spent. As a result, the municipality reverted back
to the old system. No benchmarking was done by the
municipality due to the fact that the entrepreneur was a
friend of the ANC. If they did benchmarking they would have
learned that the accounting system does not work at four other


 
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municipalities and could the loss to the taxpayers be limited
by quality assurance of products.
These companies are registered on a centralised database to be
able to qualify and apply for tenders. Thus, is there any
system of procurement in place to assess quality assurance of
products and services before they are procured by supply chain
processes? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Well, I don’t know how many times I have to say that
the procurement is done and the people who oversee it is
provincial and National Treasury, it is not Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta. We work and try to
assist but because we don’t administer the Municipal Finance
Management Act, MFMA, that responsibility is administered by
Treasury.
As hon Emam said, because we are interested in good governance
we also put our shoulders on the wheel to assist. However, I
think sometimes you must ask the questions from the
departments that are directly involved. Thank you.
Question 160:


 
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Deputy Speaker, Dr Schreiber, Chapter 10 of the Constitution
covers the basic values and principles governing public
administration. Section 195(1)(i) stipulates that pubic
administration be broadly representative of South African
people with employment and personnel management practices
based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to
redress the imbalances of the past. The White Paper on the
Transformation of Pubic Service of 1995 was adopted and aimed
to transform the South African service into a representative
organisation, in line with section 10(2) of the White Paper
that advocates for the introduction of reforms in the
procedures of recruitment, selection and promotion of staff to
promote greater equal opportunities in the public service.
Section 3(1)(c) of the Public Service Act of 1994 makes
reference to (c) the condition of service and other employment
practices for employees; (d) for labour relations in the
public service; (e) for health and wellness of employees; (f)
for information management in the public service; (g) for
electronic government; (h) integrity, ethics, conduct and
anticorruption in the public service; (i) transformation,
reform, innovation and any other matter, to improve the


 
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effectiveness and efficiency of the public service in its
service delivery to the public.
Legislation governing the filling of the posts in the public
service are as follows. Firstly, the Labour Relations Act of
1995, which is section 5 of the Act actually focusses on the
protection of persons seeking employment. Secondly, the Basic
Conditions of Employment Act of 1997, section 29 thereof,
which focusses on the written particulars of employment.
Thirdly, the Employment Equity Act of 1998, section 528, which
focusses on unfair discrimination, medical testing,
psychological testing. Lastly, the Public Service Act of 1994,
the Public Service Regulations that actually supports the
Public Service Act of 1994, and collective agreements,
determinations and directives within the public service.
In summary, the intention of recruitment based on the broad
principles is to ensure that a transparent, fair and
competitive process is followed in order to appoint the most
suitable candidates who are fit and proper for the positions,
as advertised. Thank you.
Dr M M GONDWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, on 20
January 2020, the ANC’s cadre deployment committee met at the


 
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St George Hotel. At that meeting, the ANC directly interfered
in the appointment of the Director-General, DG, of the
Department of Public Service and Administration and the
appointment of the Principal of the National School of
Government. Hon Minister, given that your department is
directly tasked with the responsibility to create a capable,
ethical and nonpolitical public service, do you believe it is
appropriate for the Minister of Public Service and
Administration to be taking instruction from a political party
on who to appoint in the department? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon
Gondwe, I think, what I have just presented now was actually a
demonstration of processes within the Public Service in term
of appointments. They are actually based on fair and
nondiscriminatory processes. They are supported by
legislation. I have just read a number of pieces of
legislation, including Public Service rules that are supposed
to be adhered to in the appointment of personnel in the Public
Service. Thank you.
Ms M M NTULI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, we are
so pleased that you were able to explain and elaborate on this


 
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matter and we hope everyone does understand, as you have put
the matter on the table. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Deputy Speaker, thank you for the question, hon Ntuli. It is
just an endorsement of what I have just presented in a way
that explains the principles, procedures that are ethical and
that follow norms and standards within the Public Service.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, for
the DA, cadre deployment means employment of black people and
that for them is bad, regardless of the qualifications and
expertise of black people. They are emboldened in this notion
because of the action of the ruling party, which has
repeatedly employed people whose sole purpose is stealing from
the public, while leaving out thousands of fully qualified
black people who can contribute towards building the public
sector. What plans do you have to limit political interference
in the appointment of DGs and DDGs in the Public Service, to
allow them to do their jobs without having to consistently
worry about their often corrupt political principals? Thank
you.


 
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Deputy Speaker, the public service does not have anything that
is called cadre deployment. It is something that is an
assumption made just for political point-scoring, to make the
department and the leading organisation in government look
bad.
As I have indicated right at the beginning, I have articulated
clearly how employment is carried out in the Public Service
and there is nothing but the legislation that was adopted by
this very House that I am in now.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister,
let me start off by saying that all political parties wherever
they govern, only employ their own people. There is no doubt
about it. What is important here is that the President, in the
Zondo Commission, has also admitted that yes, indeed, the
employment committee existed and that people were appointed.
He knew of them some but others he did not know about, but he
could not do anything about it. The question is: Learning from
our mistakes, what measures can be put in place to ensure that
we have independent bodies responsible for appointments and
deployment all over the country in all spheres of government?
Thank you.


 
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon
Deputy Speaker, hon Shaik-Emam, the public service in South
Africa is one of the areas in government that is meant to
ensure that there is effective and efficient service delivery
across government to the people of South Africa. The executive
and also probably the leading party in South Africa take this
very seriously. Because of the constitutional democracy in
which we work, we will always remember that we are supposed be
guided by legislation, by the precincts of the constitution
and whatever we do, we continue to adhere to those precincts
of the Constitution. I thank you.
Question 150:
IsiZulu:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Inkinga umbhobho wokukhuluma, manje uba
sezansi uma umile kanti uma uhleli uyakwazi ukuwusondeza.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI ESIKHUNDLENI
SIKANGQONGQOSHE WABESIFAZANE, INTSHA NABAPHILA NGOKUKHUBAZEKA
EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: Awuthi ngizame-ke Sekela Somlomo.
Uyangizwa angithi Sekela Somlomo? Uuyangizwa? Angithi ningizwa
kahle? Ngikwazi ukuphendula kahle uma ngime ngezinyawo.
English:


 
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I wish to thank the hon member for ...
IsiZulu:
...umbuzo. ngiqale ngokuthi uNgqongqoshe Maite Nkoana-
Mashabane use-New York emhlanganweni omqoka kakhuli kabi ...
English:
... for women, the Convention on the Status of Women. That is
why ...
IsiZulu:
... engicele ukuba ngike ngithi ukummela ngoba esaphumile
esayomela iNingizimu Afrika.
English:
Yes, in monitoring co-ordination of multiple initiatives
inclusive of youth employment the Department of Women, Youth
and Persons with Disabilities is working with partners in
government such as the project management office ...
IsiZulu:
... ejwayele ukubizwa nge- ...
English:


 
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... Planning, Monitoring, Evaluation, PMU, in the Presidency.
The National Youth Development Agency, Nyda, Department of
Employment and Labour, Trade and Industry and Competition,
Small Business Development ...
IsiZulu:
... neminye nje iminyango esibona ukuthi iyakwazi ukusiza
ekuqashweni kwentsha.
English:
Other partners are in civil societies such as Harambee Youth
Employment Accelerator, Activate Southern Africa Labour and
Development Research Unit, the University of Johannesburg,
etcetera. As conceptualised in the National Youth Policy, NYP,
2030, this partnership ensures that youth employment is
tackled through collaboration with different stakeholders. All
these partners are part of the Presidential Youth Employment
intervention announced by President in his February 2020,
state of the nation address as comprehensive response to
challenges of youth unemployment in South Africa. The
intervention is co-ordinated by the project management office,
PMO, in the Presidency. The PMO co-ordinates the national
pathway management network which will provide active support


 
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through multiple channels to support the entry and retention
of young people in the labour market.
Furthermore, it is worthy to note that 23 114 young people
were capacitated with skills to enter the job market, 9 292
youth were supported with nonfinancial business development
intervention, 831 youth-owned enterprises were supported with
financial interventions, and 3 905 jobs were created and
sustained through supporting entrepreneurship and enterprises.
Important to note is that jobs were created and sustained
through entrepreneurship development derived from three
programmes, namely: market linkages voucher and grant
programmes. These jobs are either created or sustained as a
result of the intervention offered by the programming business
with young entrepreneurs.
And then (b) yes, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons
with Disabilities developed the monitoring and evaluation
framework for national youth policy. The framework has, among
others, the indicators of youth unemployment. Data is
requested from different stakeholders on programmes and
projects aimed at creating jobs. This framework enables
department to monitor progress on the high-level indicators as
part of tracking implementation. In addition, there is


 
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integrated youth development strategy developed by the Nyda
which will soon be presented to Cabinet for approval. The
strategy encourages society-wide, cross-sectoral exchange and
programmes at developing and empowering our youth at local and
provincial level. I know, Deputy Speaker, that this is what
government does and we are very conscious of the fact that
jobs are very difficult to find, the economies are doing very
well. However, we are hoping that between government, the
private sector and community, we can create the opportunities
for young people. Thank you.
Ms A S HLONGO: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Can the
Acting Minister of the department enlighten the House on
findings the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation Framework
of National Youth Policy that it developed? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER
IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH
DISABILITIES: Hon member ...
IsiZulu:
... ngiyaxolisa nje ukuthi kuzofuneka uloko ushintsha kancane
kodwa kuyofuneka ngisukume ukuze ngikwazi ukuphendula umbuzo.


 
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English:
Yes, thank you very much, hon Hlongo. Any evaluation that is
done is done with an intention of appreciating and
understanding what are the challenges that are faced so that
when we develop policy, but not only when we develop policy,
when we look for partners we must be able to be very specific
about what the challenges are. Therefore, in my answering the
question earlier on I did indicate that ...
IsiZulu:
... sinenkinga yemisebenzi, sinenkinga yomnotho ongakhuli
ngokushesha ...
English:
... so that ...
IsiZulu:
... abantu bakwazi ukuthola imisebenzi.
English:
And because of that ...
IsiZulu:


 
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... yiyo into eyenza ukuthi ikakhulukazi abantu abasakhula
...
English:
... young people, many of them who by the way, if I may add
...
IsiZulu:
... eMnyangeni Wokuthuthukisa Amabhizinisi Amancane, kulaba
abathola u-R350 salenza ucwaningo olusibonisayo ukuthi ...
English:
... those who are not getting the jobs are in years of 25 up
to 40 and that is actually the period when young people are
supposed to be in jobs. Therefore, working together with the
Department of Women, Youth and People with Disabilities, and
all other departments any research that is being done is
supposed to be used by all governments departments.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga.
English:


 
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Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Since
the start of the Presidential Youth Employment Intervention
and the National Pathway Management Network Innovation Fund in
2021, and other programmes to actively address unemployment
amongst our youth. Can the Acting Minister elaborate on
successes so far and whether the programmes such as enabling
youth to access learning and earning opportunities are
accessible to youth living in deep-rooted villages. For
example, in the uMuziwabantu Local Municipality villages, like
KwaMashu under ... [Inaudible.] ... and also ... [Inaudible.]
... village, which has an ocean with fish and as far as where
the most ... [Inaudible.] ... in South Africa and also ...
[Inaudible.] ... village, in the uMdoni Municipality near
Bram. Has the Minister been helpful in providing these
villages with free internet connectivity to access learning
and earning opportunities? I do parliamentary consensus work
in these villages and really I care about them and I want to
know whether the Minister ... [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER
IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH
DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hon Hendricks. Maybe I
should start from your point in order for you to get a full
appreciation of the questions that you have asked. I will ask


 
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the department to provide you, specifically because you are
asking about very specific projects, and upfront with regard
to those specific projects I was not giving the answer
specifically for those projects. I’m not sure whether the
department was given the follow-up question where they should
have put the information together. I will be upfront with you
and say that the specific areas you are talking about I cannot
respond to right now. However, I promise that I’ll make sure
that you get the necessary information.
Of course, I’m very much appreciative of the fact that you are
the parliamentarian, the Member of Parliament, MP, that does
the oversight over the executive on this. And that your
interest is to make sure that the people that you represent
and the constituencies that you go to need to get the
necessary information. With regard to free internet, I think
you are very much aware of the fact that government at all
levels, national, provincial and local is doing a lot to make
sure that we give people free access to internet connectivity
and you are very much aware of the fact that there has been
engagement with the telecommunications company, Telcos, all of
them the Telcos, to make sure that they walk with us in this
one because the more people have this free internet and
especially young people, the more they are able to access the


 
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information they need for either schooling or looking for jobs
or even those that are doing businesses. Therefore, hon
Hendricks apology that I’m not able to give you the full
answer, I will make sure that you get it. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Yes, thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister,
in order to enhance youth employment considering that we have
70% unemployment rate in the country. Now, this matter was
raised before on the challenges that we faced must start from
the Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET,
colleges themselves. They should be speaking about the skills
need so that many people can be employed. What you find is
that TVET colleges based on the availability of lectures a
curriculum is created not based on the skills needs of the
country. That is why you would find not many of the youth are
being employed or entering the trade like plumbers, electrical
and many other fields including the agricultural things. What
mechanisms can you put in place to ensure that there’s some
level of co-ordination between these colleges and the skills
needs of this country to ensure that we enhance employment in
the country, particularly among the youth and ... [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER
IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH


 
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DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hon Shaik Emam, and my I
also thank you because one of the things that you always doing
to keep us in our feet. You write to us, you ask us the
questions, you tell us what is happening and we respond as
much as we possibly can. With regard to the question that you
are posing, yes, I think it’s being said so many times that
the skills sets that is produced not only at TVET colleges. It
is not actually the skills set that is needed in the new
industry.
However, I do want to say that from a government point of
view, from science and technology, Department of Basic
Education, Department of Higher Education and Training, there
is now a focus by government which government cannot work
alone. Government here must make sure that especially the
private sector which needs these skills must work together
because you are asking me about the mechanisms and the view
that we have is that we need to look for a new skills set
considering the fact that technology is also running very
fast. We have artificial intelligence; we have got a whole new
way of technology that is happening.
Therefore, it is important for TVET colleges in particular to
change their curriculum and change the way they are working.


 
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In fact, if I may also add my own practical experience because
as the Department of Social Development working together with
Basic Education, working together with Women, Youth and People
with Disabilities. We have got young people who are coming out
of matric, and who are coming out of schools where there’s
free education and the department through SA Social Security
Agency, Sassa, is paying for their fees and all and we are now
looking at how can we be able to assist them to go to the
right TVET colleges to choose the right subjects so that when
they finished the college they are then able to get the jobs.
However, importantly, we also think that young people must be
assisted with starting their own businesses. Therefore, the
importance of small and medium enterprises here is very
important. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, may I with your permission put
the question on behalf of hon Sukers. Thank you. Hon Acting
Minister, one of the biggest barriers to economic advancement
and employment for youth and women is access to further
learning. One such initiative is to advanced learning is the
National Senior Certificate for adults which obvious include
young adults, which when implemented with provide access to
further learning and training for millions of school dropouts.
Who, the hon Minister, and your department join the ACDP to


 
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call for the urgent and better implementation of this policy
as it provides a bridge to employment and learning programmes.
Now, I appreciate Acting Minister that you might not be able
to respond to this question at this stage, but you might want
to comment in general or refer to hon Sukers in this regard
once you have the relevant information. Thank you so much.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER
IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH
DISABILITIES: Thank you once again. Hon member, thank you for
the follow-up question. Yes, we don’t mind joining you in
calling for exactly ensuring that this programme is
implemented and I say so yes, because hon Sukers and myself
have agreed on going into certain communities and dealing with
the issues which are being faced, and even with this one I
agreed with her on issues that are related to social
development, but I’m 100% sure that Minister of Women, Youth
and People with Disabilities wouldn’t mind going onto a
campaign like that because quite frankly this is exactly what
we need to do to make sure that the young people – firstly the
recognition of the National Senior Certificate, but also the
implementation of a programme that will make it easy for them
we will gladly do that. I’ll pass the message to the Minister
and I’m 100% sure that she won’t say no to it.


 
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Question 173:
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZENDABUKO:
Umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi, Sekela Somlomo, uyangithanda kakhulu
ngibona nje ngemibuzo angibuza yona. Ungibuza nje nemibuzo
ekungeyona engabe uyibuza mina kodwa uyangibuza. Ngiyabona
ukuthi, hhayi, uyangithanda impela umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi.
Umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi ungibuza ngempesheni manje impesheni
akuyona into elungiswa ngu-CoGTA, impesheni yizinto
ezilungiswa kowezimali ka-Treasury.
Kodwake, ngoba uyangithanda, ungibuzile ukuthi impesheni ...
ngicela ukusho ukuthi, cha, angikwazi ukuwuphendula lo mbuzo
omayelana nempesheni ngoba akumina ozisebenzayo izimpesheni.
Ukube bekuyimina bengizokuphendula impela nje kahle. Ngiyacela
nje ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha nangokukhulu ukuzithoba ukuthi lo
mbuzo mhlawumbe uye kwa-Treasury mayelana namabhodi
ezimpesheni kanjalo. Ngiyacela. Ngiyacela impela, Sekela
Somlomo.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I think the Questions Office
too has a responsibility to do this. Hon Mkhalipi asked a
relevant question. The Questions Office should have redirected


 
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it to the correct place. What it means is that, given the fact
that the Minister is unable to deal with it supplementary
questions on this matter will have to be handled elsewhere.
Ms D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, this is the second question
that the Minister has said it should actually be referred to
the Treasury. Often many issues are crosscutting, but the fact
of the matter is that this is the municipal pension fund that
falls under municipalities. Those contributions are made by
municipal councillors. While it may be to deal with prudential
issues, it is the responsibility of the Minister to then
consult the Treasury about what she and the Treasury are doing
about this specific issue. So, I am not sure if it is fair to
just say it is the Questions Office. The Questions Office
deemed it a suitable question, and the Minister must answer
the question.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I think it is unfair because
we wrote and followed all process in terms of the Rules of
Parliament when we pose this questions to the Ministers. Above
that this matter was also discussed in a Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, meeting - the
portfolio committee, PC, which Minister Dlamini is our
Minister. Therefore, I don’t think it is fair to just process


 
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all the questions here and only when we are expecting the
Minister to respond we get an answer saying that we love
Minsters that’s why we ask questions that do not belong to
their portfolios. This matter was discussed in her portfolio
committee. Therefore, I think the Minster must try to answer.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before that Minister, let me reply first.
I think I need to reply. Chapter 10 part 1, 134(5)(a) and (b)
of the Rules read as follows:
No question may be addressed to any person other than a member
of the Cabinet; and questions must relate to matters for which
Cabinet members are officially responsible.
That is essentially what the Minister is saying. She is!
Minister, you were going to speak and I said let me reply, go
ahead and speak. I have read the Rules and now you can reply,
Minister. You wanted to speak earlier on.


 
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. I just was
wanted to respond to the hon member who said this is the
second question I have refereed. I have answered the two
questions that were asked. I have answered the supplementary
questions and it is not correct to say I did not answer the
questions and I said they must be referred to the Treasury.
This is the first one. Honestly, I don’t deal with pensions
and I can’t lie and say this is what is happening, this is
what is happening. Also, you have assisted me by reading the
Rules. Thank you.
Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, you referred to Rule 134 where
you particularly talked about 5(b) that it must relate to
matters for which Cabinet members are officially responsible
for. The reality is that the Minister did go to the portfolio
committee to present this very matter which is now on the
Question Paper. The reason why this matter was not kicked off
by the Questions Office is because it does relate to her
official duties on some level. While it may crosscut other
departments, but the reality is that [Interjections.] excuse
me, Minister, I am busy.


 
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let the hon member speak. You
can’t ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Anikwazi ukumxubha edla. Yimani. Yimani bo [Ubuwelewele.]
Anikwazi ukumxubha edla. Qhubeka lungu elihloniphekile.
English:
Ms S GWARUBE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The point
that I am trying to make is that many matters in government
are crosscutting across departments. If one aspect of the
matter is doubted by the Minister it is in fact an official
duty of hers as per the Rule that you had reference. And it is
also with due respect that I think the Minister must answer.
What did she present in the portfolio committee if she can’t
answer now? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: `Let me clarifies ...[Interjections.]


 
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, just hold on. Let me hear
what hon Groenewald want to say.
Mr I M GREONEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. My hand has been
up quite a while. Please, make sure you look at the hands on
the platform as well. The question I want to ask in relation
to the pension fund is directly under the Minister in terms of
the SA Local Government Association’s Salga, involvement in
this. That’s why I think that, especially in terms of that
that department do fall under the Minister. I would request
that she answer the question that came forward. Please, Deputy
Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please respond.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I never ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you want the Minister to
speak to you. Just hold your horses. Let the Minister speak.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZENDABUKO:
Angizange ngethule ngezimpesheni. Ikomidi elibhekene


 
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nomsebenzi yabiza isikhwama zezimpesheni ukuthi bazokwethula
kulo. Hhayi ukuthi mina ngethula ngesikhwama sezimpesheni.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the Minister has responded to
the issues you are raising. Hon Gwarube, the Minister says it
was the Pension Fund that presented to the committee and this
is why ... just give me a second. There is a reference here.
Hon members, my attention is being drawn to the guidelines for
asking and responding to questions. It is (f) in the
guidelines and it says:
Questions may not be asked about the action of a Cabinet
member for which he or she is not responsible to Parliament.
It is not in order to put a question to a Cabinet member for
which another Cabinet member is more directly responsible, or
to ask a Cabinet member to influence a colleague.
In essence what I understand this to mean is that this
question that has been posed, the Minister best responsible to
answer it is the Minister who deals with pensions and so on.
We have read it in the Rules and we have read it in the
guidelines and I think the best solution is that we get the


 
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Minister who is responsible to directly respond. I can ask the
Minister to respond. I have been asking her to do so, and she
has replied and given you her response to this. What do you
want to say now, hon Gwarube? Tell me!
Ms S GWARUBE: I have a suggestion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, hold on. Let me chair the
meeting please. Don’t scream it is out of order. Let’s be
appropriate for a while.
Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, my suggestion is that we must
now discuss this because Cogta will always have crosscutting
issues. Obviously, there are many other entities that Cogta
will deal with. We need an understanding from you and your
team how then best to deal with this going forward because, of
course, the Minister can’t then come every single time and say
it doesn’t directly affect me. So, please can I ask that this
be looked into.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: In the mannerism speaking I know we do
that - every time she would say this. She hasn’t done so every
time. [Laughter.] No, I am just cleaning up the language. But
I agree with you that the best place to deal with . . .


 
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because these guidelines for answering questions come from the
Rules. We will place it on the agenda so that we clean it up.
If you think it needs cleaning up, please bring your
suggestions there. We can’t discuss it in the House right now
here. Thank you very much, hon members.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker!
Mr A B RADEBE: Chairperson, you have made a ruling.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! Wait a minute I am chairing.
Mr E W MECPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, in terms of Rule 134 the
question was placed with the Questions Office and placed on
the Order Paper within the prescribed timelines. If the
Minister fell that she could not answer the question, she
should have notified the Speaker’s Office that this question
is not for her. She chose not to do that and that is directly
infringing on the member’s right who asked the question and
she didn’t do that and I think that yourself need to have a
word with the Minister that if she believe that this was not
in her privy to answer, she should have said so within the
timeframe which she did not do.


 
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will do that. I will have a word with
the Minister.
Mr A B RADEBE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I think that this
House will go into chaos if we don’t respect your rulings. I
request that the Rules be implemented to the later. There are
a lot of prejudices which have occurred here. The people who
were asking questions previously some had asked three
questions and they overturn your own ruling. This thing will
lead to chaos in the House. I request that there must be
consistency, Chair.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. In relation to
what I said earlier as well as in terms of the Rules that you
have read, my question still pertains specifically to Salga
and the role that they play in the directorship within that
municipal bank’s pension fund. If you would, Deputy Speaker,
allow me to ask at least my follow-up question because as soon
as the other Minister comes, the Minister will also say that
that doesn’t follow under him. Now we are sitting with a
problem. To who must I ask this question? May you allow me,
Deputy Speaker, to ask my question.


 
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I will not allow you, but I will take
what you are saying. May you give us that question so that in
addressing this question in the Rules committee we provide a
broader one and not necessarily only this one so that we get
answers that you are going to be responded to. Let us not over
milk the cow now, please. I think you have made an appropriate
observations and we would like to have answers. As a result,
hon Mkhalipi, unfortunately, because of that we will not be
able to have any other supplementary questions.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, I am saying that you have asked
the question and there will also be no supplementary questions
because of the reasons we have given. I am aware it is not a
supplementary question. I was just gesturing to you as the
original asker of the question. That’s all!
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I am calling for an order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the order for?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I think you as a person
presiding over this meeting owe me an apology because it means


 
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that Parliament misled me as a Member of Parliament when I was
doing my oversight. Now you can’t brush it away as if I have
not done my oversight.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you allow us
...[Interjections.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: `Can I finish, Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I request your indulgence. We can’t be on
this matter for so long. What I am suggesting is that we will
come back to you. Allow us to go and discuss it in the Rules
so that we bring to the House an appropriate response.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I do take that, Deputy Speaker, but I am
saying that we have brought the question here and we have
followed all the proper procedures in terms of bringing the
questions. I think you, as the presiding officer today, owe me
an apology to say that you as Parliament have misled me.
That’s what I am saying, Deputy Speaker. Going to the Rules to
discuss this matter is another thing, but now I am saying that
I was misled by Parliament to say that I am going to do my
oversight to the Minister


 
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Madam, hon member Mkhalipi, you are
jumping into a dangerous conclusion and I disagree with you. I
have ruled on this matter and we proceed. You will hear from
us after the discussions in the appropriate structure. With
the greatest respect I am not entertaining any more
discussions on this matter. Thank you very much.
Question 152:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, let us
appreciate the question. The Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation indeed has published guidelines on
the impact evaluation whose purpose is to assist government
departments to effectively plan and manage impact evaluation.
Randomly the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation
does at different times do go and do on its own an impact
assessment.
The recent strategic planning assessment has demonstrated that
only limited number of these assessments have been done by
various departments. It is against that background that our
overall evaluation is ongoing in this regard.
With regard to tools; we are again using various tools to do
the work. Firstly, the annual performance plans. Recently, we


 
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have introduced what we now commonly refer as the national
annual planning tool to align Medium-Term Strategic Framework,
MTSF, with the given year of planning. The department does
monitor government performance on quarterly basis. Also on
biannual terms at times using electronic quarterly performance
reporting system. The biannual reports are submitted to
Cabinet to ensure corrective measures.
With regard to evaluations; up to now, we have focused on
implementation and evaluation. We are actually turning that
around to make sure that there is a healthy balance between
monitoring and evaluation in order to ensure that as we
implement, we are on the predetermined direction.
Lastly, of course, the other new tool is the district
development model which is driving one plan, one programme and
so on. Those are sort of tools that we are using. Thank you,
Deputy Speaker.
Ms M T KIBI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, thank you
for the response. Hon Minister, noting that your department
issues guidelines to departments, to conduct impact
evaluation: Does the department monitor and assess whether the
guidelines are effectively implemented by the department’s to


 
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yield the expected outcome? If so, what are the findings of
the assessment? I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, that
aspect it is being carried, but we have come to accept that it
is not carried as frequent as it is supposed to. As a result,
I will show as we continue to give you answers that we have
been doing what we call the biannual examination on six
months’ basis and only evaluating pure activities. We are
changing that to go on quarterly basis as I have said already
to balance between monitoring and evaluation; it is only after
that we will be able to give a full and a sound answer to your
question, hon member. Thanks.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you do not sound well. If
you have a fever, please, man: Should you be here? If it is
true and I am serious. Sir, if you are not well, please man,
and especially – you should not overlook your doctor’s advice.
Please! We know it is important to be present on duty all the
time. If it is correct that you do sound as I suggest you do,
do not feel obliged to stick around.


 
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, unless you
chase me out, I feel alright. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not know whether it is about you
alone.
Mr K CEZA: Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker.
Mr K CEZA: Deputy Speaker, can you also ask the Minister to
wear his mask, please. For his nose ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I know, but he was speaking. That is why
he did not have it in. Normally when you speak we ask you not
to put on your mask. Thank you. Alright. Let us proceed. I
raised the issue and if we are assured, I hope we are not
going to have a problem. Alright. The hon J J Mcgluwa. I have
not seen you in a long time.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, you really made me worry
because I am sitting directly opposite the Minister.
[Laughter.]


 
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Hon Minister, clearly the tools to conduct impact assessment
has been in existence since the inception of our Constitution.
Our Constitution referred to the Auditor-General and the
Public-Protector of South Africa, let alone the Public Finance
Management Act that is also in place; whatever government is
going to do to assess the impact on how money is stolen,
clearly, it is not working.
The fact remain that the irregular expenditure is at a record
high. Hon Minister, my question does: How will any new tool be
different and more effective in ensuring the persecution of
corrupt officials in government departments? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hope you
hear me with a mask.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, no, when you speak, it is
alright to take it off.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: For we do not want you to muffle the
sound. At least I appeal to you. Yes.


 
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, Deputy
Speaker.
Hon member, we mainly deal with the performance. Of course,
when we produce results they are mainly oriented to make
assessments and evaluate performance.
You are correct that if there are irregular expenditures that
do not pass the test, there is something wrong. Is as if you
were listening to me when I was introducing this that one of
the instruments we are introducing this year, is something
called the national annual strategic plan instrument. It is a
tool which is tightened to ensure that the Magento Functional
Testing Framework, MFTF, goals are structured and properly
followed in a given year.
Secondly, we have done assessments of annual performance
plans, APPs, two times now before this coming year, 2022-23.
We are doing a final check-up in the coming week so that
before they enter the space we want to make sure that they
pass the test of the theory change.
Hon member, our attitude, whilst it is important to look at
the rear mirror, we are now spending a lot of time using the


 
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windscreen, may lest we fall. In other words, we take your
questions very serious and I hope the measures we are now
introducing will make a difference. I may not say a lot about
the measures that happen there before, but we accept a lot has
not gone right. That is why a lot of reports be it on
corruption and the Zondo Commission are there because a lot
has not been going right. All together as colleagues in
Cabinet, we are trying to introduce measures that we think are
going to work, hoping to reduce the irregular expenditure as
you have articulated. Thanks.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon Minister, you may
now put on your mask. The hon R N Komane.
IsiZulu:
Akekho!
English:
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me take her question
as a Whip on duty?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright. Go ahead.


 
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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Alright, thank you, hon Deputy Speaker and
hon Minister, one clearest indicator of the fact that
government at the national level has no clue of what is going
on across the national, provincial and local spheres of
government. It is the reality that year after year, the
Auditor-General, AG, releases the reports about the state of
government departments across all spheres.
Municipalities are dysfunctional, the education system is
collapsing, the public health is on its knees: Why have you
not used the reports and the recommendations of the AG report
in order to address the systemic and chronic inefficiencies of
governance across the three spheres of government? Thank you,
Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think
dealing with the hon member preceding the hon member, on the
platform, I have just said, we acknowledge that just it is not
even us not revealing anything, there is a lot of things that
we are dealing with.
Hon member, one of the things we are doing is, we were just
recently in Mahikeng. We introduced what we call integrated
planning, monitoring and evaluation framework and also


 
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introducing institutionalisation of this mechanism. As I am
talking to you now, we are looking at having a session with
the premiers and mayors, so that we ensure that this system
that we are trying to check-up, both in balancing and
evaluation and monitoring is not a national story, but it is a
story that must be shared by the provinces.
We are also saying that the frequency of monitoring is going
to improve. More especially on catalytic projects, monthly and
more on quarterly basis, so that we are able to pick up things
on time.
Again, we hope implementing the japed up system that we are
going to execute, we are going to get better. We are hopefully
going to deal with issues you have already raised. Thank you,
hon Deputy Speaker.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, across all
departments and especially in relation to crime within the
Republic, we are not only seeing persistent challenges, but
also increasing crime statistics.


 
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I would like to know what tools have been put in place to
assess the impact of current resources in government efforts
to reduce crime across the board?
The hon Minister, will measures be taken to increase the
budget of entities who are failing to address the needs of
service delivery where measuring tools indicate insufficient
budget noncompliance with regulations and irregular
expenditure? If not, why not? Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, if you
look at the Budget made by the Minister of Finance, he has
added not less than R8,7 billion to the Police. The President
announced that more than 10 000 new police recruits will be
trained and a number of related personnel will be trained.
The other issue is as you know is against the Prof Mufamadi
High-Level Review Panel report, a lot of stories came out
there against which plans have been put in place. All those
issues of which the intensions are to deal with crime.
Over and above, as I am saying, the annual performance plans,
APPs, cut across all the organs of state. Whether you are a
state-owned entity, or a department. When it comes to state-
owned entity, I am sure again if you remember what the


 
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Minister of Finance said, and he said it is no longer father
charismas as usual in accessing finances by them. If you want
to access finances as a state-owned enterprise before the
Minister you must put a turnaround plan that pass the
authenticity test.
So, all those measures in toto we believe that are able to
deal with that. I hope I have tried to answer your question,
hon member, with its underlying concerns. Thanks.
Question 144:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY Thank you very much, hon Deputy
Speaker. The Ministry in the President pays an oversight role
to the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS,
which pays an oversight role over the Media Development and
Diversity Agency, MDDA. Against that background, it is our
observation based on records that that institution has been
able to stabilise. As we speak, one of the manifestations to
that effect is that they have been able to get a clean audit.
The GCIS has a media bulk-buying unit that procures all types
of media, including community media while MDDA lobbies for
funding and provides grant funding and other non-functional
support to these small medium enterprises. The stability in


 
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the institution has led to an engagement with
telecommunication companies. amongst us, we ended up having
Memorandum of Understanding, MoU, with the Citizen
Entrepreneurial Development Agency, CEDA, National Electronic
Media Institute of South Africa, NEMISA, the Media,
Information and Communication Technologies Sector Education
and Training Authority, MICTSETA on sector training and are
looking forward for partners that can play various support
roles to the sector.
The entity through the board and the Deputy Minister has been
opened for discussion around the funding of MDDA by the
Commercial Print Media Houses. At the moment the sector has
been given print in discounts. The entity, hon Deputy Speaker,
will also be meeting the Department of Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs and the SA Local Government
Association, Salga, to galvanise support by municipalities to
these entities.
The entity launched its fundraising strategy on 11 March 2022
to identify new partners and lobby for more resources to fund
the small media enterprises, including community media. The
entity is also undertaking sustainability research, which will
culminate into sustainability model aimed to assist SMMEs in


 
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the areas of MICT and also to ensure sustainable in the long
term. Thanks, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon minister, can I
use as an example some of your responses to make a point that
I know we are talking to each other? This is members asking
Minister to respond. But it is the public that is listening to
us and they would like to hear what you are talking about.
When we abbreviate or use acronyms we will lose the full
meaning of them. So, can I plead that as a general practice,
Ministers, Deputy Ministers and members in the questions that
we posed that we speak a language which anybody listening to
us immediately know what we are talking about. Media
Development Diversity Agency as an example. So, I am just
pleading with all of us, not just you. Maybe that will help,
especially because you are talking about what we call GCIS.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Do you want me to correct
those abbreviations?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, I am just mentioning as a
principle approach to communicating ...


 
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY I accept your counselling.
Thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thanks to the Minister for a very good
encouraging response. Minister, the members of the Media
Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, are appointed by the
President and two more from the mainstream media. The question
is whether the Minister will consider that members of the
small media publishers also be represented on the Media
Development and Diversity Agency Board? It cannot be that
advertising revenue goes to those media who promoted apartheid
and media that create a narrative that kindly there will be
better so in apartheid returns to South Africa. Appointing a
competent person representing small media publishers on how to
bring the state to order if the Minister want that
transformation. We cannot live for 25 years without
transformation. The advertising industry has been under fire
this week by the Human Rights Commission, the Media
Development and Diversity Agency ... I look forward to the
Minister’s answer, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
To the hon member, I think what he raises is very important. I
think we are open, hon member, to reconfiguration of


 
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representation MDDA that is going to add value because we take
serious the issue of media diversity, especially to the extent
that it ensures that small institutions in the sector are
given energy and wings to fly. If therefore improving the
board representation in the manner proposed, it’s a matter we
are prepared to look at. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. And thank
you very much, Minister, with your response. But however, my
supplementary question to you is that instead of calling for
all three spheres of government to fund the small media
enterprises, is it not the funding model of small media
enterprises through the Media Development and Diversity Agency
that needs to be revisited? I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson. Maybe
to draw your attention - it’s not the first time one
interfaces with this agency. I interfaced it when I was a
member of portfolio committee at a given point in time. I
think a lot of interventions will stay opened to even if is
the funding model that we need to speak about because where I
am sitting now I can tell you that GCIS does actually give
quite a number of these institutions. It buys platforms from
them except that the challenges in the small commercial one’s.


 
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One of the things that we are trying to deal with is to make
sure that we get full records of their audience. But does it
make it enough? No, a lot of them still don’t access the funds
as minimal required.
Against that background your point, hon member, is taken that,
it’s one of the issues on the table like what other hon
members said about improving representation even model
improvement needs to be looked at. If there is a case for
improving the model, we will have to deal with that. And we
are open.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, given the short to medium term
focuses of low economic growth and thus reduce checks and
revenue for the public purse is which seems highly unlikely
that the government in any sphere will be able to increase
advertorial support for community media as suggested by the
primary question.
So, will the Minister therefore not agree that a more feasible
approach one in line with the President’s call for social
actors to work together more closely will be one of
partnership building and increase stakeholder collaboration
such as incentivising low interest loan providers to help fund


 
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start-up small commercial media operators and encouraging big
corporates, especially in the retail sector by more air space
in community media towards the markets. Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon
member. Thanks for reminding us about the call by the
President for a new consensus. We will leave no one behind. I
guess when the President make that call, it is in essence in
line with what you are saying, hon member, that the call
faltered around in the country and the resources required to
support that call are of such a nature that working together
we can do better. Therefore, I would just maybe let you know –
one of the large print house media had left the MDDA because
of instability at this spot in time. They are beginning to
come back, and some of the are already making undertakings
that they are going to talk to amongst one another to actually
see a bigger picture because a clearer society is a comer
society and a comer society is the better society to unleash
its energy. And when the entire society unleashes its energy
is a better chance for better impact in our economy.
So, in another words it could not have been stated better than
in your side and your point is taken seriously in that
context.


 
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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, there are over 200 community radio
stations in this country and almost all of them are struggling
to make ends meet and are laying the blame at the MDDA for
lack of support. What is the government’s conceptualisation of
the role of community radio stations as a tool of information
sharing? What have you done to make sure that these stations
are supported?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thanks, hon Mkhaliphi. I guess
this government is this government which put the media
diversity agency in place. Again, amongst other thing, it was
responding to us to ensure the fruits of a hospital government
which is people’s centred, it’s a government where the general
societal a level of clarity is very high and the chances of
transparency with regard to opportunities are also very high.
Therefore, it is against that background that this government
accepted that SABC on its own even large houses on their own
are not an adequate capacity to inform society. Therefore,
against that background coming from our Constitution, we
remain committed to that already based on what I have already
said.
That’s why I am so sad now. The NTT is also undertaking
sustainability research, which will culminate into


 
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sustainability model aimed to assist the SMMEs in the areas of
needs and to ensure that they are self-sustainable in the long
term.
And this research is not coming from the moon out of the blue.
It’s because it is actually affected by the issues that I have
just raised, hon member. That we can do better in that area
but there is a number of community media institutions that
have benefitted in this assistance. The story is in each
province but we do accept that huge amount of work still needs
to be done. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Question 154:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Chair. Hon Ntuli, through the development
interventions that are prioritized, the department is
definitely witnessing resilient public service. One of the
clear factors shaping the performance of public services, a
broad education and training and environment that is currently
in place. Over years, the Department of Public Service and
Administration has been assisting departments in the
development of their employees in a co-ordinated manner
through the implementation of Human Resources Development
Strategic Framework for public service, supported by


 
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associated, determinations, directives, guidelines and other
related subordinate legislations provided under the Public
Service Act No 103 of 1994, as amended to guide them on how to
plan and conduct education and training for employees, to
conduct needs assessment for both employees and organisations,
alignment of human and capital resources, and to put in place
a monitoring and evaluation systems for impact assessment.
The implementation of these development initiatives within the
public service contributes towards implementation of the
National Human Resource Development Strategy of South Africa
towards 2030 and the National Skills Development Plan 2030.
Both of which are aimed at ensuring that South Africa has
adequate, appropriate and high quality skills that contributes
towards economic growth, employment creations and social
development to using a combination of these measures.
The National Development Plan suggests that in order to
achieve a high quality public service, improving and
maintaining infrastructure and conditions for economic
development all require a professional public service and a
capable state. This was quoted from the National Planning
Commission Report of 2011, page 365. One of the observations
made by the National Development Plan is that public service


 
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faces a severe shortage of staff and specialised skills,
especially in health, policing, infrastructure, planning and
engineering, finance and information technology. These
adversely impacts not only front lines services, but also the
long term planning and co-ordination in line with the plan for
building a capable, effective and professional public service.
The Department of Public Service and Administration has
identified interventions which will contribute to the
achievement of the above agenda. These interventions are to
contribute to professionalization of public service by
improving skills levels of existing employees, by assisting
them to acquire the requisite professional and technical
qualifications, in order for them to undertake their
responsibilities in professional and competent manner, and
also strengthening the talent pipelines by investing in ...
[Inaudible.] ... and undergraduate students studying towards
occupation considered scarce with a view to channel and retain
them in the employ of the department by increasing the
capacity of the departments. I thank you, Chair.
Ms M M NTULI: Hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much for
your informative response. You elaborated and expatiated and
indeed we are educated in this House. But I wanted to ask a


 
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follow up Question on that one to say that the public service
is a strategic and critical human resource for the nation. Are
we nurturing this human resource and is the nation
experiencing the impact of this or is it getting lost in the
mediocre of the challenges? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
House Chair, the Department of Public Service has developed a
new Human Resource Development Strategic Framework based on
lessons learned from the previous and implemented Human
Resource Development Strategy Frameworks. Whilst a full impact
study was not conducted, there has been evidence of improved
performance due to the implementation of a strategic
frameworks across public service. New strategic frameworks
build on the work that was consulted with Cabinet committee
which recommended further work which the Department of Public
Works and Administration is currently dealing with.
Whilst there has been recorded improvement, including
enhancement in human resource planning, filling of vacant
positions and performance management, the Department of Public
Service and Administration is working on measures to build
capacity through enhancement to individual employees and how


 
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this links towards government performance. I thank you, House
Chairperson.
Dr M M GONDWE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister,
one of the reasons that the public service is failing our
people and riddled with elements of corruption and fraud is
due to the ruling party’s entrenched practice of cadre
deployment. I know you said in your previous response that
there is nothing like that. But Deputy Minister, we do have
access to indicate otherwise. So my question becomes, how will
your department ensure that cadre deployment is totally rooted
out of the recruitment and selection process in the public
service? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Gondwe, thanks for
acknowledging that we have already dealt with the matter of
cadre deployment - that it does not exist. Maybe you had
already prepared the question, but its fine. One thing that I
want to actually say to you is that we are a government that
is viciously fighting corruption ... [Laughter.] ... even if
you may want to continue to create an impression that this
government is corrupt. You should, with the same breath,
manage to acknowledge the fact that this government is


 
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viciously fighting corruption ... [Applause.] ... and this is
based in the measures out in place.
If you look at what we are doing from the Department of Public
Service and Administration, there is a task team that is
called the Public Administration Ethics Integrity and
Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit, PAEIDTAU, that was
launched towards the end of last year. We are busy with
lifestyle audits and I know that some of the questions will
actually be bothering on lifestyle audit, and it is because of
the fact that we are viciously fighting corruption. There is
what is called a fusion centre that was formed when there were
allegations around Personal Protective Equipment, PPEs. That
fusion centre has all the state organs that have to do with
crime together so that we can be in a position in the first
place to fast track, to have proper investigations and to fast
tracks ways of dealing with matters of corruption within
government. So this government - please listen carefully - ...
[Laughter.] ... is viciously fighting corruption. I thank you,
House Chairperson.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Deputy Minister, for many South Africans, seeking assistance
from public service for workers is a painful experience. From


 
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the conversation I have had with many members of the public,
they claim for instance that it is now almost impossible to
get services at Home Affairs offices without bringing
officials to expedite your matter. What has cost the
degeneration of public service to this level and what are you
doing to salvage the image of public service in the eyes of
the public? I thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, hon Motsepe for the question. But let me begin by
saying to you that we are a government that manages to
acknowledges the shortfalls within government. We are not
saying that we are perfect government, but we know that we are
a government that is delivering. You are making reference to
Home Affairs. We know the kind of flaws that we have within
Home Affairs, but we also acknowledge the good work that our
Department of Home Affairs is doing for us. What is important,
moving forward, is also to try and manage to understand all
the deliverables that are coming from various departments. I
thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms H DENNER: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister,
resilience is one thing, and we appreciate that you
acknowledge the flaws of the public service as well. But we


 
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all know that one can only do so much with what you have to
work with in a way of resources, such as ICT equipment,
adequate office space and facilities, technical support and
the likes. South Africans are bombarded with service delivery
problems as previous speakers also mentioned such as drivers’
licences that can’t be printed, medical staff having to buy
their own supplies, water and electricity to public service
buildings being shut off due to non-payments, dilapidated
office spaces and the list is never ending.
Does your department see the working environment and
conditions of public service employees as an important
priority? Do you agree that some work under the impossible
conditions and what is your department’s plan to address these
conditions that despite the best efforts of some public
servants make their work and public service delivery
impossible? Thank you, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
House Chairperson, what I want to say in response to the
question that has been put forward is that as the Department
of Public Service and Administration, it is our duty to
continue to work towards effective and efficient public
service. It is our duty to build a capable state and this is


 
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demonstrated in a manner in which we will put measures in
place to ensure that we capacitate our public servants in
order for them to be in a position to perform in their duties
maximally. If you look at public service and you look at the
kind of provisions that we make towards capacitating public
service servants, you would realise that, like I indicated
earlier, there is a whole lot of education and training that
goes on within public service, and that is meant for
capacitating public services.
Where we realise that there is a need, we are saying that
there are areas where there is a little bit of chaos or many
things are not working okay, once we identify that, we make it
a point that we make the necessary interventions in order for
us to be sure that public service will continue to operate in
an effective and efficient way. Also, taking into
consideration the most important principle that we apply which
is the Batho-Pele Principle, because we take the people of
South Africa serious. And, we know that public servants are
there to offer services to our people as we have promised
them. And this is a promise as government we intend keeping. I
thank you, House Chairperson. [Applause.]
Question 147:


 
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, and thank you to the hon member. Let me
start just by saying that the community works programme,
remodelling process was designed to be a journey rather an
event. Our intent is to experiment with new and innovative
ways, to maximize the impact on our limited resources on
poverty, inequality and unemployment.
We are still in the early stages of this remodelling process.
Although there’s been a significant improvement on the
operational side. Improving the actual impact of the Community
Works Programme will be evident over the medium term, that is
one to two years.
The new Community Works Programme Implementation Policy, as
well as the updated service level agreements, have so far had
an impact in the following areas: implementing agents were
appointed through an open competitive building process and had
to compete on the percentage project management fees. This
resulted in an overall reduction in the total project
management fees, due to implementing agency.
Both the policy and service level agreement addressed the
operational shortcomings that resulted in material


 
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irregularities, previously identified by the Auditor General.
Unlike the previous model implementing agency project
management fees are now based on actual financial performance.
All procurements above a R100 000 by implementing agency are
now also verified by the Department of Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs supply chain management to ensure
compliance with applicable legislation and regulations.
In the short term, this resulted in procurement delays,
including training due to several implementing agency
adjusting to procuring on a fully compliant manner. We are
however confident that these arrangements will have a positive
impact in future.
Service realised through improved procurement processes and
reduction project management fees, were utilised to increase
the participants’ stipends for eight day participants from 780
to 840. And, for 20 days’ participants from 2540 to 2600 per
month, that is 7,7% and 2,3% respectively. Savings were
further utilised to increase the total participation targets
from 250 000 to 255 000.
In terms of the new implementation policy, the department has
direct oversight over the development and the implementation


 
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of site business plans and training plans aimed at improving a
positive impact on the Community Works Programme on public
goods and services and on participant’s skill development.
The department is in the process of developing its internal
skills base. To provide the direction needed in the areas of
useful work and training. The full impact of this new approach
will therefore be realised over the medium term. While the
community ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga. Siyabonga,
Ngqongqoshe. Sesiphelile isikhathi kodwa ungaqhubeka.
Singakupha omunye umzuzu wokuthi uqedele. Qedela, Ngqongqoshe.
English:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I also wanted to say as part of our progressive
remodelling, we also got National Youth Development Agency,
NYDA, to work in the Public Works Programme but it’s only in
one province. They have been able to facilitate 100 youth
participants to exit approximately into the tourism and retail
value chains. The NYDA does receive project management fees
but are only rather reimbursed for actual programme overheads.


 
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We have seen that actual overheads are approximately over 4%
of the programme’s budget compared to project management fees
of implementing agency rate fees ranging from 5 to 6,5% ...
[Time expired.]
Mr F D XASA: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, over the past ...
[Inaudible.] ... financial years the agrarian revolution
programme, which has been a dedicated programme of the
Community Works Programme was allocated R324 million to fund
its 36 projects across the seven provinces; the Eastern Cape,
KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Limpopo, North West, Free State and
the Western Cape. But, several nonprofit organizations which
were implementing agencies, exceeded their budgets but had not
completed the project. What is the status of these projects,
following the implementation of the remodelled Community Works
Programme, CWP? Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga, baba u-Xasa
noma ubungabonakali kahle kodwake izwi lona besilizwa.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, the department between April and
December 2021 verified all projects and the expenditure in the


 
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agrarian programme. All the agrarian projects were put on hold
during this period. The verification process confirmed that,
in several cases agrarian projects were poorly managed with
inadequate business plans. The department has not yet paid the
nonprofit organizations, npos the 5% retained portion of their
project management fees for the April 2018-21.
The verification process will enable the department to hold
the NPOs accountable and to recover the funds from the NPOs
where necessary. The department is currently finalising plans
to complete existing projects during this 2022-23 financial
year. Thank you.
Ms E R J SPIES: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, the people on
the ground simple does not have one to two years to wait for
this remodelling plan. Minister on 1 February I received
complaints from Community Works Programme workers from the
Langerberg and ... [Inaudible.] ... districts, respectively
ranging from not receiving their salaries to not having
equipment and non being procured. Minister, it is now five to
six months after this progressive remodelling policy
implementation plan, call it what you want, the situation
remains the same. Minister, can you give us your assurance
that no irregular expenditure what so ever would be incurred


 
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on the Community Works Programme in this financial year? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATION GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, we do acknowledge that during that
period, there was a problem, but the problem was due the
connectivity issue at State Information Technology Agency,
SITA, so the servers were down, so we were not able to pay
just during that period but subsequently and before they were
paid and subsequently they are being paid.
And we say the impact - for instance if you look at what NYDA
has been able to do, it’s been able to train the CWP so that
they could even exit the programme and go into tourism, into
retail and they will be going to other areas. Because that was
originally what the CWP was meant to do. But unfortunately it
wasn’t doing that. The implementing agency were not training
young people so that they have portable skills that they can
take and exit the programme and get jobs or create jobs
themselves. So, they were just recycling the same
participants, without them getting the skills. So we are
improving, is not the same as I say and even the amount that
they are charging us, we have been able to reduce. So, there


 
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is progress but I cannot say that you can change CWP
overnight. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo, ngiyethemba uNgqonqoshe
ngoba uthe uyangithanda, unayo impendulo-ke kulo mbuzo wami
ngoba ...
English:
... it is a follow-up question. Minister, your department
allocates annual budget for the Community Works Programme,
this kind of work is permanent in nature but people are
employed on rotational, temporary basis. Why have you not
considered using this budget allocation to employ people on a
permanent basis to do exactly the kind of work, that CWP
workers do. For instance, to fix potholes, to fix water leaks,
to clear alien vegetation and so on and so on.
IsiZulu:
... ukuze abantu bakithi babe nemisebenzi wanomphela hhayi
lawa manqampunqampu umnyango wakho mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe
obanika yona. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.


 
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UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZENDABUKO:
Hhayi, ngiyamthanda vele umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi
ngizomphendula. Lolu hlelo lwaluvele lungazange lidalelwe
ukuthi luqashe abantu ngokugcwele. Laludalelwe ukuthi
lulekelele abantu abangenawo umsebenzi abangenawo amakhono
ukuthi baqeqeshwe ukuze bakwazi ukuthola imisebenzi bakwazi
futhi mhlawumbe baziqalele imisebenzi yabo. Kodwake
esikutholile uma sifika kulo mnyango ukuthi abakwenzi lokhu
abaqashelwe ukuthi bakwenze. Yingako sithi indlela yokusebenza
siyayishintsha ukuze kwenzeke ngale ndlela ekwakufanele
kwenzeke ngayo ukuthi baqeqesheke, bakwazi ukuyothola
imisebenzi noma bakwazi ukuziqalela imisebenzi.
Khonamanje kukhona uhlelo esisaluvivinya ukuthi lungasebenza
yini lokuthi sisebenze ne-Construction Seta siqeqeshe laba
bantu be-CWP ukuthi bahlanze amadolobha, bavale imigodi. Uma
sebenawo lawo makhono, omasipala sebengabaqasha ukuthi babheke
imigaqo ukuthi uma umgaqo ubanezigodi bakwazi ukuyivala.
Ngakhoke senza kanjalo. Uma sizovele nje mabaqashwe
ngokugcwele kusho ukuthi, okokuqala, bazoba mbalwa kabi abantu
abazoqashwa kanti lokhu kusiza abantu abangu-250 000. Uma
sesizothi abaye komasipala bonke ngokugcwele kusho ukuthi
bayoba mbalwa abazoqashwa. Ngiyabonga.


 
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English:
Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, hon Minister, please may
you confirm if the new 2021 Community Works Programme Policy,
has in any way impacted the number of municipalities, that are
able to offer the CWP as well as the number employment
opportunities created? Further, please confirm the number of
municipalities that have implemented the new policy. I thank
you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATION GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The number of sites have not necessarily increased
but the number of participants have increased. Thank you.
Question 163:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Gondwe, the report is an
outcome of the investigation, the mandate of the investigation
belongs solely to the SA Police service, SAPS. The SAPS is in
charge of the investigations, and would be in a better
position to provide answers in terms of the numbers that have
been investigated relating to the fraudulent transactions or
fraudulent applications for the R350 grants. Thank you, House
Chairperson.


 
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Setswana:
Ngaka M M GONDWE: Ke a leboga, Modulasitulo.
English:
Hon Deputy Minister, the office of the Auditor-General found
out that at least 5 812 public servants fraudulently applied
for and received the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant,
and you say that you take people of this country seriously,
but to date there is 5 812 public servants who stole money
from the state during the pandemic, are still the employees of
the state.
My question is very simple hon Deputy Minister, when are the
cases involving these public servants who unlawfully applied
for and benefitted from these SRD Grants going to be
finalised, and when will the implicated public servants be
fired and arrested? you take corruption in a serious light and
you are dealing with this viciously, thank you. Why hasn’t
anything happened?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, hon Gondwe, basically, the question says, or the
information that you actually managed to get says, the 5 000
had applied. Now, remember that we are living in a


 
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constitutional democracy, where there has got to be fairness.
Where there is an allegation, it needs to be fair and there
must be a due process that actually takes place.
You are actually saying to me now that, these people must just
be punished because there have been allegations that they have
applied fraudulently for the R350 grants. Basically, an
initial response to your question was that, as the Department
of Public Service and Administration, we are not investigating
any cases, that is the mandate of the SA Police service. Also
remember that, the R350 grants has also to do with SASSA, and
SASSA has got a ministry that is responsible for it. Probably,
your answer lies somewhere, but not with the Department of
Public Service and Administration. I thank you, hon House
Chairperson.
Ms S GWARUBE: House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.
Hon Gwarube.
Ms S GWARUBE: House Chair, I am rising on Rule 134 of the
National Assembly Rules which states that, questions are given
to Ministers ahead of time, and when the Minister or Deputy


 
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Minister deemed it that it was not in her purview to answer
the question around, consequence management or people in the
public service, she should have flagged Parliament, so that
the question can be revised or reposed, or a different
question would be answered, but Ministers can’t come here and
then simply pass the buck to other members of Cabinet, it’s
unacceptable and it makes a mockery of this whole session.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, the
session for question and answer is meant for the public out
there, let alone ourselves. So, the Minister or the Deputy
Minister should, of course, use the best opportunity if he has
to answer the questions, but they always do their best in
answering those questions. If Members of Parliament are not
happy with that, there are processes to follow, but for now,
we have to accept how the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers
answer the questions in the House. I am not prepared to argue,
hon members. Over to you, hon Macpherson.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, I would like to rise on Rule 138(3)
which says, Minister may authorise his or her Deputy to reply
to the question, and I assume that is was done in the case of
the Deputy Minister, but it also says that, they must be able


 
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to respond competently to any permissible supplementary
questions that might be asked.
Now, I put it to you, Chair, that the Deputy Minister is not
competent to be able to reply to these questions if she is
simply saying, I don’t know the answer, go and ask somebody
else. So, I would like you to rule on the competence of the
Deputy Minister to answer the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson, ...
[Interjections. ... order, hon members. Hon Macpherson, hon
members, may I advise that, please, let us not use words that
will cause tension in the House. It’s not necessary. ...
[Interjections.] ... We are ceased with very important issues,
so, let us not allow a situation where the House goes out of
order, into chaos unnecessarily; let us not use words of
awkward nature, hon Macpherson. It might be the rules, as you
understand it, but I have already made my input on that. Hon
Radebe, I see that you have raised your hand.
Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, Chairperson. I think that, if the
member has got any complaint about what the Deputy Minister
has answered to, he has a place to go to, which is known as
the Rule Committee where he can raise that issue there, even


 
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if he contends your ruling, he can also go to this committee
to raise that. But we cannot have a debate on the floor. Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
member.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Gwarube, I have
ruled on the matter.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: It’s Mkhaliphi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have ruled on the
matter. I wouldn’t like to entertain an argument between
ourselves. I have ruled on the matter.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, you are not
allowed. Thank you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson.


 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The second
supplementary question ... [Interjections.] ... Do I hear
another person?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip. Are
you rising, hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAHORITY PARTY: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Oh, hon Mkhaliphi.
Over to you, hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chair. Do you hear me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I can hear you. Go
ahead.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: You have ruled correctly on the matter. So,
why is hon Radebe repeating what you have said? It is my
concern.


 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
Mkhaliphi ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr B A RADEBE: She just wants attention that one.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Shall we continue,
hon members. Shall we go ahead, please?
Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you, hon Deputy
Minister.
IsiXhosa:
Andinawo umbuzo, uyitye yonke. Enkosi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
member. The third supplementary question will be asked by hon
Sithole. Order, hon members. Over to you, hon Sithole.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister,
in relation to the fraudulent of R350 grant application and
payment, please provide details of the new security mechanism
that has been introduced to prevent such fraud from happening
again. If fraud mechanism has not been introduced, tell us why


 
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they have not been introduced, and what is the way forward.
Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
Sithole. Hon Deputy Minister ...
IsiZulu:
... umangabe umbuzo uwuzwile.
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chair, it was a bit little difficult to hear
what the hon member was actually saying. But briefly, I could
actually pick up that he is worried about the way forward,
whether are we still going to find ourselves in a situation
where people successfully or fraudulently manage to access
grants, a situation I would actually say that we are confident
that, because on an ongoing basis, we keep on improving our
systems, such a thing will actually be prevented. Thank you.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Deputy
Minister, it is not only the matter of social grants. Many
public servants are owning businesses and are getting
contracts from the state. This paints a picture of a state


 
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that has no idea of what their public servants are doing, or a
state that simply does not care about the corruption in the
public service. Why have you failed to monitor and be able to
assist and eradicate corrupt activities of public servants who
engage in corrupt activities? Thank you very much, hon House
Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, hon House Chairperson, I have actually indicated
earlier that, we are steadfast as a government in fighting
corruption, ... [Interjections.] ... yes, of course, and
measures continue to be strengthened, to be put in place to
ensure that we fight corruption. I have also indicated of the
number of systems that have actually been put in place to
fight corruption including what we call, Technical Assistance
Unit, TAU, which is the technical, integrity, disciplinary
task team that is supposed to have to help us monitor
corruption, across government, that is supposed to help us to
make interventions where there is corruption.
Also, that is why we now have what we call ethical offices
that TAU will be working with across government, that will
help in every government department, to manage to identify
where there is wrongdoing and to put measures in place to


 
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ensure that action and decisive action will be taken to deal
with any public servant that is doing something that is wrong,
so that we shouldn’t continue to just come with allegations
that are not substantiate and just accuse in general public
servants and remember, when we talk about public servants, we
talk about people who are taking care of the people of South
Africa, and we need to be careful about how we talk about
them.
These are the people who wake up every morning to go and
deliver services across government for South Africans, for the
lives of the South Africans to be improved and lives of the
South Africans to be developed. That is why therefore,
fairness means, when we talk about public servants, and we
know that, from amongst public servant’s officials, there are
those that are doing wrong things, but we shouldn’t paint them
with the same brush. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Question 172:
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, the question is about the total amount
that is paid by metropolitan councils, paying the outsourcing
of security guards per annum. We have been able to get figures
from five metros, that is the City of Cape Town Metropolitan


 
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Municipality which in 2020-21 paid R1,21 4 billion. The
Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality, R13,6 million.
Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality, R92,9 million. EThekwini
Metropolitan Municipality, 1,056 billion. Nelson Mandela Bay
Metropolitan Municipality, R2,62 million. These we have been
able to verify with the cities themselves.
When we looked into the annual financial reports, the City of
Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality is R447,3 million and the
City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality is
R43,5 million, but as I say, until now we’re still waiting for
them to verify the figures. In Tshwane Metropolitan
Municipality, we couldn’t find the figures. They say that,
they do not disaggregate the security, they put it under
contracted services. So, they are still going to disaggregate
it for us. So, we don't so we don’t have any figure for
Tshwane.
Point B wants to know what would the difference be in cost if
the security guards were insourced. We did ask this question
from the municipalities which are of course responsible for
doing that. We have not got responses from all of them. I will
just talk about those that have already given us the
responses. Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality says that,


 
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one permanently employed security guard costs the metro R274
032 per annum. Then they say, they cannot compare that with
outsourced security guards, because the outsourced security
guards come with their own arms and they also come with an
armed backup response. Therefore, they cannot compare them. It
would be like not comparing apples to apples but comparing
apples to something else. That is the answer they have given
us.
Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality says that within the
timelines provided, it was not possible to provide complete
and accurate figures. However, based on an assessment of
average cost per security guard, as they estimate there, to
insource the security guards would be 20% more than their
current cost and in figures, it would be about R18,7 million
that they would have to pay more if they were insourcing.
EThekwini Metropolitan Municipality gave us this response and
the municipality did not calculate the costs for insourcing
services. However, they are anticipating that the costs will
be double due to the shift system. The City of Cape Town
Metropolitan Municipality said it is not in a position to
respond to the question, as it has not done an analysis to
compare outsourcing and insourcing. Nelson Mandela Bay


 
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Metropolitan Municipality has already insourced almost all the
security guards that previously guarded its assets, when they
were employed by private contractors. The municipality has not
outsourced any security guarding to outside companies. [Time
Expired]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Chair, I will assist on behalf of hon
Matumba. Minister under the previous administration of the
City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality led by Herman
Mashaba assisted by the EFF, insourced security guards
actually saved a lot of money that ordinarily went to labour
brokers. Labour brokers constitute to one of the biggest costs
to municipalities for rendering services that municipalities
themselves can perform if they employ people directly. Why has
the government resisted calls for the eradication of labour
broking in order to employ people directly? What does the
government benefit from labour brokers other that the
kickbacks given to senior officials? Thank you very much
Minister.
The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I cannot really answer on the kickbacks given to
officials because I don’t have evidence of that. I cannot


 
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respond to that. I’ve not come across the officials who are
getting kickbacks from labour brokers. Thank you.
Mr F D XASA: Hon Chair, I hope I am visible now. Hon Minister,
according to a report compiled by the City of Johannesburg’s
Group Forensics and Investigation Services, the project to
insource security and cleaning services that was implemented
by the DA led by Mr Mashaba as was indicated by the previous
member. They got a report that indicated that, the services
after insourcing cost them R1,2 billion instead of a projected
R557 million due to irregularities and poor oversight. Is the
Minister aware of this report? What steps are being taken to
hold those responsible accountable? Thank you very much
Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I will follow up on that matter and I will
come back and give a report to the Minister because I have not
... [Interjections.] I’ve not ... [Interjections.] Sorry I was
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister you
can go ahead.


 
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The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, I was just saying, I will follow up on
that ...[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members!
Order!
The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I will follow up on that question and bring a full
answer to the hon member Xasa. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Minister I join this meeting from Msunduzi Local
Municipality in Kwazulu-Natal, where the municipality doesn’t
have many security guards either insourced or otherwise. In
fact, the municipality hardly has qualified personnel to
attend to basic services. Residents suffer the power and water
outages for days on end. This is a municipality under
provincial administration. You know, I’ve written to you about
this case. Can the Minister please agree to dispatch civil and
electrical engineers from the Municipal Infrastructure Support
Agency to at least assist Msunduzi and the community to
stabilise the service ... [Inaudible] ... municipality. Thank
you.


 
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The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Brink. I will indeed speak to
Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa and see if they
can do that. We are also assisting Msunduzi by taking some of
the Community Work Programme, CWP training them through the
sector education and training authority, Setas to try and look
at maintaining and closing boreholes and cleaning the city. I
will do that with Mr Brik, I will talk to me Misa. Thank you
Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Chair, I think hon Zondo has a bad network
connection. Let me take his question. Hon Minister, with
regards to the insourcing of security guards which has shown
to be more cost effective in metropolitan municipalities such
as eThekwini. Will your departmental policy in this regard
also be favouring unemployed members of defence and military
veterans, who have the required skills but currently find
themselves unemployed? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon member. Even though that is
an idea that is good and I agree with, we don’t have the
authority prescribe to the municipalities and metros how to
carry on their employment. But, as an idea it is something


 
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that you can discuss but we have no authority to enforce it.
Thank you.
Question 151:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, you were not
here earlier on when I indicated that the Minister is in a
really serious discussion in New York as I am answering the
questions for her here.
The process of institutionalising the National Strategic Plan,
NSP, on gender-based violence, GBV, started during 2020-21
financial year. This has enabled the department to gradually
monitor and enforce accountability and compliance with
reporting by departments. I want to say that the Minister
really does that. Any Cabinet Minister can tell you that she
watches for this because she wants to make sure that the
institutionalisation of this National Strategic Plan happens,
not for us, but for the women of South Africa.
I want to add that this is something that needs a buy in from
both political and administration, and I can tell you that the
ANC has the political will to make sure that this is
implemented and the administrative will is also happening but


 
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we will need to try and strengthen it so that the National
Strategic Plan is properly institutionalised.
Currently, we have an average of 25 departments consistently
reporting on a monthly basis to the Presidency. The department
has undertaken sensitisation and capacity building sessions to
ensure the integration of the National Strategic Plan on
gender-based violence and femicide within institutional plans
and budgets at national, provincial district and local
municipalities. As you are all aware, we have the District
Development Model and we are hoping that through this new
model we are going to be able to ensure that this is enforced.
On a regular basis, the department assesses the integration of
the National Strategic Plan priorities into the departmental
plans and integrated developmental plans. In the financial
year 2021-22 the department assessed draft departmental plans
to ensure integration of priorities and this is a very
difficult task, even for us as Ministers, because we have to
go through all the documents to make sure that all the annual
plans are aligned.
To increase reach, the department, through support from the
European Union, EU, is in the process of appointing technical


 
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monitors and data captures in three pilot provinces, Gauteng,
KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. Currently, the department
is leading in the establishment of multisectoral rapid
response teams at local levels and will co-ordinate the plans
in responses.
Four provinces have finalised their National Strategic Plans
on GBV implementation plans. These are Western Cape, Gauteng,
Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. The five remaining provinces,
Northern Cape, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Free State and North West
have started working on their implementation plans but have
not yet completed.
The process has been very intensive requiring provinces to
adequately customise their strategic plans on GBV. In
provinces that currently do not have aligned provincial GBV
National Strategic Plans the department continuously organises
information sessions to localise National Strategic Plan and
support the establishment of rapid response teams.
Yesterday, fortunately I was also in this meeting, we had an
opportunity to engage with the Department of Youth, Women and
Persons with Disabilities portfolio committee on the national
council GBVF Bill for establishment of the council. A number


 
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of issues were raised in the portfolio committee which we will
be addressing to fast-track the implementation of the NSP on
GBVF targets to ensure maximum impact. I thank you.
Tshiven?a:
Vho C M PHIRI: Mudzulatsidulo, kha vha ntendele ndi loshe heyi
Nn?u, ndi loshe vha?honiphei, ndi tshi ri kha mufareli vho mme
Lindiwe Zulu vha ?o mpfarela. Arali vha si khou pfa kha vha
ambare vhudzaipfi uri vha kone u ?ologeliwa zwavhu?i.
Mudzulatshidulo, Minisi?a ...
English:
... my part is that if you can’t understand Tshivenda you must
put on your earpiece. I will continue in Tshivenda with
translation.
Tshiven?a:
Mudzulatshidulo, ngauri vhu?ifhindleli ha u vhona uri
mbekanyamushumo dza tshumelo ndi dza muhasho honeha muhasho u
?o ita mini kana u ?o dzhia maga afhio a uri u sa shuma
zwavhu?i kha u konyana mbekanyamushumo dza u tambudzwa ha
vhafumakadzi na vhana zwi si dovholole kana zwi si bvele


 
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phan?a uri zwi si shume zwavhu?i muhasho wavho u ?o ita mini?
Ndo livhuwa.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, may I rise on a point of order. I
am sure you are aware there was no translation in the Chamber.
Ms C M PHIRI: I can give you a translation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Phiri, you
still have some time. Can you please do it. [Interjections.]
Can I check with the hon Minister? Hon Minister, are you at
home?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Hhayi, ngimuzwe
kahle. [Uhleko.] Ngizwe kahle, Sihlalo.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The reason why I am
asking ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Indaba wukuthi
sonke sila eNingizimu Afrika kuyafuneka ukuthi sizame ...


 
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English:
... by all means ...
IsiZulu:
... sifunde izilimi zethu. Angikwazi ukuthi ngingakhuluma
isiRashiya kodwa ngingamuzwa yena. Ayisebenzi kanjalo.
Angikwazi ukukhuluma isi-French, nesiPutukezi nakho konke bese
ngibuye ngingamuzwa yena. Kodwake, Sihlalo, kuyenzeka ngesinye
isikhathi umuntu uma ekhuluma okunye kuyakulahlekela kodwa
ngaphandle kwalokho, sihlelekile ngapha kwa-ANC.
Lingitshelile ilungu ukuthi uyabon-ke namhlanje ngizokushaya
ngolimi lami ngizofuna ukuthi ungizwe ngithini ngakhoke
ngiyaphendula manje, Sihlalo. Ngixolise nje ukuthi angeke
ngikwazi ukumphendula ngolimi lakhe ngoba ngizovela
ngikwitizise bese kuba kubi. Angibuyele kulesi Singisi sami.
Angifune kukwitizisa.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, I
think it will help if you can maybe give your answer in
English ... [Interjections.]


 
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I will give it in
English.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): ... kuzokwazi ukusisiza
ngoba nami la ngihleli khona ngizwe nje ekhuluma nge-load
shedding angazi utheni. [Uhleko.]
English:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I will wait
...
IsiZulu:
... ngoba wena awuzwanga uzwe u-load shedding kodwa mina
ngizwe umbuzo ngakhoke ngizolinda.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart, I am
sure you will be taken care off. Your English will be taken
care of. Hon Minister?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Kuyofuneka ukuthi
kube namaklasi, omunye ngapha uthi yena uzwe ihashi kodwa mina


 
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angizwanga ihashi, Sihlalo. Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo,
ngingaqinisekisa ukuthi ...
English:
... work is underway to strengthen the co-ordination of a
multisectoral national response.
IsiZulu:
Futhi ngisho nje, Sihlalo ...
Setswana:
Ke a tshepa gore le ena wa nkutlwa fa ke bua IsiZulu. Wa
nkutlwa? Ga o utlwe IsiZulu? Wa bona yaanong wa nswabisa. Wa
se utlwa? Nnya, ba seke ba go arabela.
English:
So, in order to address some of the weaknesses that we
identified in the inaugural review of the implementation of
the NSP, the department is fast tracking the establishment of
structures at provincial local level such as provincial
directors general forum, the rapid response teams and the
placement of monitoring and evaluation experts in premier
offices in three provinces, namely, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-
Natal and Gauteng.


 
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We move from the premise that protection and safety of women
and girls can be achieved only through co-ordinated collective
and sustained action. We also have a bit of history in this
one from a position of how do we co-ordinate it and how do we
institutionalise it. It is 27 years now and since we started
it has been very hard. At some point, offices and structures
that were related to gender-based violence were usually in the
premier’s office and they will not get attention but get
shifted to another. I think the fact that we have this
department in particular it gives it a chance, not only to
monitor, but also to make sure that those that are following
up on the issues of gender-based violence they themselves are
assisted in understanding what is this scourge that we are
talking about. Thank you, Chair.
Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, to the Minister, we have repeatedly
asked you to specify what collaborative efforts you have
undertaken with the police and the Department of Home Affairs
in order to fight against gender-based violence. We have not
received any answer except for the paper it is written on.
Every quarter in this country over 10 000 women are raped.
What have you done in collaboration with the police to ensure
that all rape of South African women stops? Thank you, Chair.


 
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would agree
with the member in terms of ensuring that whatever we do must
not end up written on paper, it has to be something that is
practically implemented and also see the impact of it by the
reduction of the number of women and children that are abused
and killed.
I can assure you, hon member, that between my Ministry, which
is the Ministry of Social Development, the Minister of Police,
Minister Bheki Cele, and of course the Department of Women,
Youth and Persons with Disabilities, we do have co-ordinated
plans practically. Even this morning the Minister of Police,
Minister Bheki Cele, was presenting to us the co-ordinated
plan.
It is one thing to have these things that government is
planning to do and the police doing the best that they can to
catch the perpetrators and all that, the whole issue of
gender-based violence in South Africa is about behavioural
change. Behavioural change is not something that can be
enforced only by us political people, it is a responsibility
of every member of society.


 
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In the South African context, the painful part of it is that
it looks like the only women who are being beaten are only
black women. Let me tell you, this issue is an issue of all
women across the board whether you are white or whatever,
whether you are EFF or IFP it doesn’t matter. Violence against
women gets into homes and therefore this is one issue that we
should, by all means, avoid politicising and just work
together as a nation and say, how do we end this scourge that
is making us look like monsters to the world. Thank you.
Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, this
challenge appears to be one that is cross cutting all sectors,
both public and private. What are you specifically doing to
enhance and promote gender awareness in work places and
conducive empowerment environment for women in general? And
what challenges are you facing in this regard? I thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngibonga kakhulu
... [Ubuwelewele.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members!
IsiZulu:


 
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Malandela! [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Order, hon members!
IsiZulu:
Kahleni! Kahleni! Malungu ahloniphekile, hhayibo.
English:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I am not sure
if you were hearing what the hon member is saying, but ...
[Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
... awumzwanga, makazikhulumele.
Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, I do not know whether the
member is referring to me when he says ... I don’t know what
is banana or wanana, what is the meaning of that and what ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member ...


 
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Ms M D HLENGWA: I am a small girl? Do you think I am a girl? I
am a grandmother at home. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hlengwa ...
[Interjections.]
Ms M D HLENGWA: No, I need an apology. I need an apology on
this one because it is a disgrace to me, even to my children
at home. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members,
please. Is it hon McGluwa? Hon McGluwa, did you say that?
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Chair, I referred to the former Minister,
Manana. I mentioned his name because one of the questions was
relevant to the former Minister Manana. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I
honestly did not hear what he said, but this will be followed
up and I will respond.
IsiZulu:
Ngicela siqhubeke.
English:


 
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Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, I will report this to my
Chief Whip because this is an insult to me. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will make a
follow up on that, Mama uHlengwa. I will definitely make a
follow up. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much,
Chairperson ...
IsiZulu:
... ngiyasaba ukuyingena le ngoba uma ngingayingena mina
kungaketuka amatafula. Cha, angizoyingena. Ngiyabonga kakhulu
mama ngombuzo wakho futhi umbuzo wakho ...
English:
... really hits the nail on the head. As I said earlier on
that it is important for us to deal with this scourge across
the board. Yours is particularly talking about the fact that
it is a cross cutting issue and I fully agree. It is also an
issue that sometimes is hidden in the workplace, and
therefore, as a department, not only the Department of Women
but government in general, we have been calling — of course we
know that there are organisations like COSATU and the rest of


 
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them who fight for the rights of workers and they never lose
sight of bringing on to the table the issue of gender-based
violence and femicide — The challenges that we face are
acceptance by the employer accepting the fact that it is their
responsibility to make sure that even within their employment
contracts and everything the issue of gender-based violence is
something that is reflected there. It is also about
accountability, and unfortunately in many instances, workers
who are not protected, when they go and report it ends up
there in the boardrooms. So, it is important for workers to
ensure that even if they do not belong to a union, they know
their right and know where they must go to when the issues
arise.
It starts in the private sector — because you are talking
about the private sector — it is about the private sector
creating a conducive environment for women or any other person
who is being abused, but in the main it is women that are
abused, to be able to go somewhere and report and make sure
that action is taken. Thank you, Chair.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, to the Minister, at the end of
January this year the President referred to a number of
important amendment Bills to strengthen the fight against


 
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gender-based violence. These are the Criminal Law Sexual
Offenses Amendment Bill, the Criminal Related Matters Bill and
the Domestic Violence Bill. They cover a wide range of issues;
they are victim cantered and are aimed at protecting the
vulnerable. I am sure you are also aware of these Bills in
terms of being the Minister of Social Development.
Rising from your response in the acting Minister capacity, to
what degree are the departments, and of course it is incumbent
on all of us, spreading the message about these very important
Bills so that the public is aware of these important
amendments? For example, with the Domestic Violence Bill, one
can now apply online for orders for protection. I think it is
very key that the public are informed about these far-reaching
Bills which we support. We all need to accept responsibility,
and I appreciate the fact that you emphasise behavioural
change and that it affects everyone in society and previously
you have also referred to the importance of family in this
regard. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon
member for that follow up question. Yes, I think we have to do
much more in terms of making the public aware and we also need
to do much more to strengthen the families because as


 
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government we believe that we have to do something in
supporting the families. It is for that reason that the
Department of Social Development is responsible for
mobilising, supporting and advocating even amongst those
organisations that are based in communities.
It is also about ensuring that where there is a broader reach
like faith-based organisations and religious organisations who
have people coming to their churches every Sunday, these are
the platforms where such Bills must be explained to the
people. We have radio stations, from the SABC including your
community radio stations, these are the stations we have to
use.
I think the last one for me which is very important is the
work that is being done by Parliamentarians in their oversight
and holding us accountable as the executive. I believe that
every time you go to your constituencies you must not lose
sight of this programme of gender-based violence and you must
continue to hold us accountable in terms of the finances that
we are spending here. Hon Swart, when I look at how much money
we are spending on non profit organisations which are supposed
to be doing this work, we spend R8,2 billion per year. That
money comes to us but we take it to the different NPOs and


 
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NGOs and I personally believe that those NGOs must not
necessarily be an extension of government but they are given
resources by this government to make sure that they render
those services. We have guidelines as to how they can get the
funds and what they must do with the funds.
Where I think there is a weakness it is in the monitoring and
evaluation because if they were doing their work, the impact
would be felt in the different communities. So, I do believe
that your question is also like a message to us that do better
than you are doing in terms of making sure that people are
aware of the good work. We develop the policies, we sit long
hours doing that, it comes to Parliament to the portfolio
committees, you spend so much time going through it and once
it is adopted it must not be something that is folded and put
away. We must strengthen our institutions so that communities
know that they have institutional recourse. It is one thing to
have a policy nicely written, it is another for people to feel
that the institutions are not adequately responding to them.
Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon Minister. Hon members, as already stated, the
remarks attributed to hon McGluwa, which clearly caused


 
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offense to hon Hlengwa, were not clearly heard by myself the
chair, we will refer to Hansard to check if the remarks were
recorded. In instances where the remark is not captured, we
rely on the integrity of members to state clearly what was
said when called upon to do so by the Chair. I will therefore
revert to Hansard. Thank you, hon members.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, may is rise and ask the hon
member to forgive me, and I apologise. I have never, for the
past 12 years that I am a Member of Parliament, offended
anyone in this House. I would like for her to take my word
that I said Manana. The hon member’s follow up question
referred to gender-based violence.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, thank you,
hon McGluwa, I will take that to the Table. Hon members, the
time allocated for Questions has expired. Outstanding replies
received will be printed in Hansard.
The House adjourned at 18:05.


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