Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 09 Mar 2022

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 9 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)

The House met at 15:00.

The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

NEW VACANCIES OWING TO THE PASSING AWAY OF OTHER MEMBERS
(Announcements)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members. HonmaKhawula, please put on your mask and relax. Thank you very
much.
Hon members, the process is still the same about our safety, nothing has changed. There is a lot of echo. I do not knowwhy? Please check on that. There is echo around the speakers here.

Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the passing away of Ms M M Tlou has been filled by the nomination of Mr X N Msimango, with effect from 7 March 2022.
The member made and subscribed the oath in the Speaker’s Office. May I welcome the hon member as he stands. [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
Siyakwemukela baba.
English:
Hon members – hey this thing is disturbing man!
It is disturbing. I do not know.
Mr A M SHAIK IMAM: It could be because the House is empty, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Because of what, hon
Shaik Emam?
Mr A M SHAIK IMAM: Because the House is empty. There are not much members here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, something must be done. I think they will be able to reduce whatever – as I am speaking, they are also listening and I know they will help us. Alright.
Yes. I can see them. They will do something.
That corner.
The first item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the Ministers on Cluster 2: Social Services. There are four supplementary questions on each question. The parties have given an indication of which question their members wish to pose a supplementary question.
Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate the participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officers. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness among others has been applied.

If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so, due to technological difficulties the party Whip or the Whip om duty will be allowed to ask questions on behalf of their member.
When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.
The first question has been asked by the hon C V King to the Minister of Higher Education, Science and Innovation. I was told that the Minister will be personally be here in the Chamber. Is that so?
I do not see the Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: No.
Unfortunately, Chair. My apologies. I was unable to attend as I originally intended to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Understood, Minister. I will now allow you Minister to respond to Question 90, asked by the hon King. Hon Minister.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS

CLUSTER 2 - SOCIAL SERVICES
Question 90:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon House Chair and hon members, and thanks to the hon King for her question.
My response to the question is that the National Treasury allocated an additional amount of R7,775 billion for the 2022- 23 financial year. A further amount of R1,5 billion will be reprioritised from the Department of Higher Education, Science and Innovation, 2022-23 Budget. This allocation is in line with the projected R9,3 billion shortfall for National Student Aid Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, in the 2022-23 financial year. In addition, the National Treasury has allocated additional amounts in the Medium-Term Budget Framework to anticipate the anticipated shortfall in subsequent years. Hon House Chair and hon members, however, this done whilst at the same time the department is working with a Ministerial Task Team that I appointed in 2021, which is working on developing a full comprehensive student financing model or a student financial aid system that hopefully will bring certainty in terms of the different funding needs of students with the hope that by the middle of the year one would have actually been able to finalise such a model and the necessary policy frameworks in order to move forward. However, the long and short of it is that all the NSFAS qualifying students this year, who have been admitted to accredited programmes at universities and colleges will be funded for the 2022 academic year. Thank you very much, hon  House Chair.

Ms C V KING: Hon Minister, in 2021, NSFAS funded 54 000 Students, of which 9 098 students were unfunded and 21 972 student appeals were rejected or closed. For 2022, more than 700 applications were received, clearly Minister, this actually highlights that the R10 billion shortfall is not really a clear projection. So Minister, the Treasure-General actually said that R32,6 billion additional funds will be made available. How will this R32,6 billion be utilised in totality to cover the additional students who have applied for NSFAS funding?

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon House Chair, I must say the figures that the hon King have, I do not recognise them at all. For what I know is that in the 2021-22 financial year or the 2021 academic year, to be specific more than 700 000 students were funded by NSFAS and this year they are about to hit 800 000. And NSFAS has processes of determining who is funded and who is not funded.
We have very clear criteria including mechanisms for those who wish to appeal who have actually not been funded. As I am saying now, what we are committing is that all students who have been admitted to accredited programmes in both universities as well as colleges for this current financial year, will actually be funded who are NSFAS qualifying and that is what I mean. So, I do not know the figure of 54 000 where it comes from, because it is too little. That is not what NSFAS funds. It  funds much bigger numbers.

 
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Indeed, you know there are some challenges in relation to the
need to have enough funding of the system to be able to
support the growing number of funded students. I think that is
the issue going forward that we are looking into as well as
the fact that the Ministerial Task Team is also looking at a
model that will then enable us to identify where the gaps are
and so on.
For now, unfortunately I do not recognise the numbers that the
hon King is talking about. At the next available moment even
at the portfolio committee meeting, I will be more than happy
that we pursue this question of hers. Thank you very much, hon
Chair.
Ms C V KING: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The Minister would know that NSFAS ... He was in the meeting
when NSFAS presented to us in December that 542 193 students
were funded. So, I would like to know where his 700 000 comes
from?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, let us not
forget that this is an oral reply question. So, if you have a

 
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debate on the issue, you have to do it the right way. The
rules allow you to do that. Thank you.
The hon Kwankwa.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, is it possible to sort out the
echo before we continue, because we cannot hear the members
ask questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I also had the same
problem with that.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Now we run the risk of repeating what has
already being covered in the follow-up questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright. Let us just be
patient and let us continue with it for we cannot stop, sir.
Please, they are working on it and I trust that they will come
up with something. Yes.
As we proceed, we call on the second follow-up question. The
hon Mahlatsi.

 
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Ms K D MAHLATSI: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, you
will agree with me that the NSFAS of today is way better than
that of yesterday. Though we continue having challenges, but
this are tipping challenges in a system that is progressing
very well.
Hon Minister, in light of the fact: What is the sustainable
funding model can equali the supply demand deficit in the
system to meet the financial needs of NSFAS eligible students
without negatively impacting other departmental programmes.
Thank you very much, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much to the hon Mahlatsi for actually asking a
very pertinent question, as to how do we find an equitable
model.
Firstly, the answer to that is what I have pointed out. The
work of the Ministerial Task Team that I have appointed to
actually respond to help me respond to the challenge that has
been posed to Cabinet for me, will be able to come up with a
funding model that is based on what needs to be funded by how
much, so that we are able to fund all the NSFAS qualifying
students.

 
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Now, the most important thing is that this Ministerial Task
Team is also going to be looking on issues of student debt as
well as looking at other aspects of student funding that are
needed.
However, hon Mahlatsi you are hitting on the right issue,
because also this thing must say: What are the implications of
increasing student funding for the mainstream budget of the
department? For as things stand now, it is not healthy the
fact that we are going to be taking R1,5 billion from other
programmes of the department in order to support student
funding, because at the end of the day, that is self-
defeating. We will actually be funding more students into a
system that is less capable of effectively responding to their
needs.
However, with the task team report, I am expecting it will
address all that such that government and the National
Treasury are very clear on what needs to be done in order to
strike the right balance. So, I agree with you about this
concern. I hope that the team will be then able to give us a
better answer so that government would be able to respond
comprehensively, rather than on a year-by-year basis rather

 
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than as we are doing at this moment. Thank you very much, hon
House Chair.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Minister, regularly or rather on a daily
basis we get complains from students about portal errors and
delayed disbursements of allowances by the centralised NSFAS
administration system. Has your department done anything about
these portal failures to make sure that students are not
unnecessarily denied funding or that their funding is not
delayed? The disbursement is not unnecessarily delayed. Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Kwankwa, let me say that I do appreciate the concerns that you
are raising, because I myself and my office is dealing with
such on a daily basis. The issue is often like this that:
Whilst there may be glitches with the NSFAS system which we
monitor very closely by the way as the department, NSFAS
itself does monitor the system such that whenever there is a
problem in my Facebook page for instance students raise it all
the time. We are able right away raise the issue with NSFAS to
say are there problems and then they are able to address them.

 
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However, the other challenge that we have is sometimes the
problem of communication between NSFAS and institutions. For
sometimes, some institutions take time to confirm to NSFAS the
list of students who have been admitted so that then NSFAS
will be able to say out of your list, these are the ones whom
we have really informed and qualify for NSFAS and therefore we
are going to pay for them.
That is why what I am now preoccupied with is the development
and for NSFAS firstly to acquire a more advanced information
and communication technology, ICT, system to be able to
process issues, but at the same time we are looking at the
capacity of especially Technical and Vocational Education and
Training, TVET, colleges, because that is where the bigger
problem is to also have the necessary ICT system to be able to
interact with NSFAS on time.
So, the problems sometimes come from institutions rather than
from NSFAS itself, despite the glitches that are there.
However, I am working towards upgrading that these
institutions all upgrade their systems so that in future we do
not have these kinds of problems that we had.

 
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However, so far we have been able to deal with the problems
including the appeals that are there. I would like to
encourage members like the hon Kwankwa that sometimes if you
do not get joy, please as an, hon member gets in touch with me
as the Minister right away without any delay. Thank you very
much, hon House Chair.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon Minister, in November last year, you
indicated that NSFAS has funded over 750 000 students in 2021.
The number of students from poor households who are going to
need assistance to further their studies is surely going to
increase over the coming years. The NSFAS is experiencing
problems as we heard them now, it is not the answer to these
problems. Why are you resisting developing a comprehensive
plan for a universal free higher education in South Africa to
ensure that not a single student is left out? Thank you very
much.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chairperson and to the hon Paulsen, firstly I would say
in response to this question I am glad that you have come out
with the correct number of around 750 000 students who have
been funded, unlike the hon King who spoke about 54 000

 
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initially which is why I was questioning the numbers. And then
also later she says 540 000.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, not the hon
Minister. The hon members are making noise in the House.
Proceed. I am sorry.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Alright. Yes. I was also saying what the hon King got wrong is
that she is only counting university students. If you then
include TVET college students, that is how the number goes to
750 000 students that we have funded.
Now I want then to say in that light to the hon Paulsen that
we are developing a comprehensive plan for student funding,
but the government policy is clear. We have no universal
policy of funding of higher education in this country. That is
not the government policy. The government policy is funding
students from the poor and working class backgrounds who come

 
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from families who are earning not more than R350 000 per
annum. Those are the priorities for government.
However, in addition, I have asked the task team to look at
what other system which possibly would be a loan system can
that be found for those who come from families who are earning
more than R350 000, but at the same time not rich or wealthy
enough for them able to pay for their students.
However, where a family has two university students and is
earning up to R600 000, that family can make an appeal to
NSFAS to be able pay for them. So that is the system that now
we are looking at, how do we tighten and make sure that the
glitches in NSFAS are ironed out and how do we deal with what
we call the missing middle.
Really this position of the EFF, hon Paulsen, I am sorry to
say this is a very reactionary position. Thank you very much.
[Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright. I wanted to
remind the hon Minister about the two minutes’ response and
for others to follow. Thank you.

 
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Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon House Chair!
IsiZulu:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Mama.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen you want to
say something?
Mr M N PAULSEN: Yes, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is that a point of
order?
Mr M N PAULSEN: The Minister threw something back at me and I
feel we had to respond. That is our position that education
work with ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright. We are not
debating here. I am sorry. Let us proceed we are now on
Question 121.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, House Chair, just before the
Minister answers. I know that the hon Minister is born before

 
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technology but, please can he not sit to close to the screen
we end up only seeing his mouth.
Afrikaans:
Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Ai man! Hoekom is julle
so? Nee man, mense!
English:
You can simply talk to the Chief Whip; the Chief Whip will
inform him. Please!
We now move to Question 121.
This thing is not going away. What is wrong ICT? It is not
going away and we are really struggling to be honest. When hon
members speak, we cannot hear them very clearly. I do not know
what went wrong because we have been doing so well. Alright.
Is it only from me? Are you fine as members there? Yes. So,
let us give them another opportunity to try and sort this out.
Question 121 is asked by the hon Tambo to the Minister of
Higher Education, Science and Innovation. The hon Dr Nzimande.
Question 121:

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, House Chair and also to hon Kwankwa for
helping me about how I look. Thank you to hon Tambo for the
question. I want to respond by saying National Student
Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, can only provide information
about the number of students that it has approved for
provisional funding. The final funding decision is linked to
the formal process, as I have explained earlier, whereby a
student registered for a funding qualification at a particular
institution.
The final number of funded students therefore depends on the
integration of registration data with the NSFAS funding
database which can only take place once all registration
processes have been completed. But in the meantime, I can be
able to say that NSFAS is able to report that of the 645 000
applications received for university study, 635 331 applicants
have received provisional funding decisions. Approximately
144 000 of these provisional funding decisions, indicate that
the applicant’s request for funding has been declined and
approximately 130 000 of the applicants do have the option to
appeal. Approximately 97 000 of these provisional funding
decisions, indicate the student’s request for funding has been
declined. So, that is the picture at the moment. Lastly, NSFAS

 
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will receive the first tranche of its 2022-23 allocation from
the department on 1st of April 2022 and then, we will disperse
funds for students where institutions have submitted complete
and compliant registration data to NSFAS. Thank you very much,
hon House Chair.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Minister, as recently as the end of February
many students at the University of Cape Town, Durban
University of Technology and the University of the Free state,
to name a few, were left in limbo after their applications for
NSFAS were rejected and the appeals process was delayed. Can
you guarantee today, that all of these qualifying students
have been given confirmation of funding from NSFAS and are
registered at universities?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chair and thank you for that follow-
up question from hon Paulson. I want to say that virtually all
these problems that have been raised have been addressed by
institutions. I am very pleased to say that the interaction
between institutions and their SRC’s, to address many of these
problems, have generally gone very well. That is why the
sector largely is very stable. In fact, the academic programme
has started and progressed.

 
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The report that we are getting is that all these outstanding
problems are being addressed. I can’t, of course, stand here
and say up to the last but my commitment is that working
together with the institutions, we must ensure that no problem
is left unattended, including working together with NSFAS such
that all students are attended to. Obviously, hon Paulson
there will be those who do not qualify. We have criteria as to
who qualifies, who doesn’t qualify. So, those who do not
qualify, do not get NSFAS but they also have a chance to
appeal within a particular period. The turnaround of the
appeals also has really improved because we commit that we
deal with appeals within a circle of no longer that 14 days,
so that there isn’t much delay and students are negatively
affected. Thank you very much hon House, Chairperson.
Ms J S MANANISO: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, I heard
you on your response, you have covered the issue of appeal.
However, one wants you to take the House into confidence on
what interventions are in place to enhance the NSFAS system,
to improve its application approval as well as appeal process?
I thank you.

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Mananiso. That’s a very important
question that you’ve raised.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, just a
minute. Hon members, as I have said yesterday, this House is
too small.
IsiZulu:
Awekho lawaya amakhona besinawo ngale.
English:
So, let’s try to minimise our loudness, please. I am doing
what you asked me to do. My mouth is straight with the mic,
but still I can feel the echo. Anyway, Minister, you still
have your full two minute to respond to hon Mananiso. I am
sorry for disturbing you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon House Chair. I was saying that the
question that is asked by hon Mananiso is a very important
question, as to what interventions are being made to make sure
that the NSFAS is responsive. Firstly, one of the biggest
interventions that have been made towards the end of last

 
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year, is that, now students are able to get a response, most
of them instantly as they apply. Unlike before, they would
wait for weeks, sometimes for a month or two before they get a
response if they qualify. Now they get the response,
especially that category of students who are SASSA recipients.
They are able to get their response as they actually lodge
their applications. The others who did not get their responses
like SASSA at the time they apply, NSFAS is able to come back
to them within 48 hours, which is a very, very huge
improvement to what actually was happening before.
As I have said, what I am now focused on is to assist NSFAS
that you get the necessary funding for NSFAS, to be able to
acquire a better ICT system that will be able to even improve
more and be able to interact much more effectively with
institutions, because part of the delays are caused by the
institutions not sending responses indications to NSFAS on
time, to indicate which students have actually been admitted
and to which accredited programme. That is the second major
intervention that we are actually going to be making in order
to make sure that NSFAS indeed does respond on time. Thank you
very much, House Chair.

 
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Ms C V KING: Minister, I am glad that you are saying that you
are intervening to ensure that the networking and the ICT
system is taken care of. But Minister, today, students as we
are speaking here still do not know what the outcome of their
appeals are, because of My NSFAS system which collapsed during
the course of the application process. So, Minister please
take us into your confidence and tell us exactly on which date
will most of the appeals backlogs be addressed?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE & INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, thank you very much for that follow-up question.
I would like though to correct, hon King. Don’t say students
do not know whether they are getting their money or not. As
I’m talking to you now, I don’t have the exact number. But
NSFAS has assured me that overwhelmingly the students have
actually been informed. In fact, the number that I quoted
earlier of the 645 000 applications, 635 000 applicants have
received provisional funding decisions. They know that they
are actually going to be funded - that question I have already
addressed. So, you can’t say students, as if it’s everybody.
Where there are students who have had problems with MY NSFAS
portal, NSFAS at all times is interacting with them. I have
what I call my own war room in my own office working together

 
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with the department that is actually monitoring the situation.
Sometimes we even respond or check on behalf of those who
contact my office. I do not encourage that because I do not
have that capacity in my office, but we are monitoring NSFAS
all the time. You will be able to have an appropriate
information. You are free to ask this in the portfolio
committee when we have actually concluded the registration
processes and also it’s important that we make sure that
students have got the right numbers - they do not change.
Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, last
year the IFP received numerous complaints from students of
payment about NSFAS that have stopped without any information,
especially in the Mangosuthu University of Technology. What
steps have been taken to rectify this issue in order to
reconcile the student’s accounts and what were some of the
reasons to cease payment of approved applicants? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chair, to the follow-up question by
hon Sithole.
IsiZulu:

 
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Jobe, njengoba ngichazile, [Uhleko.] ngigculiseke kakhulu
kulonyaka ngisho nalaphaya e-MUT ukuthi kubekhona ukuxhumana
phakathi kwabafundi nabamele abafundi kanye nabaphathi baleya
nyuvesi ukuthi zonke izinkinga ezithinta u-NSFAS azixoxwe,
zixazululwe. Bengingakatholi okuqhamuka ke laphaya e-MUT okuza
kimi, okuthi hhayi, Ngqongqoshe sesinenkinga engaxazululeki,
mhlawumbe sowungangenelela wena. Kunomehluko omkhulu okhona
njengamanje ...
English:
... on what is actually happening and is going on at MUT and
what this year seems to be improved interaction between the
SRC as well as institutional management.
IsiZulu:
Kodwa ke Jobe njengoba ngishilo nje, uma ngabe kukhona
okusalele ngane yakwethu, okungalunganga, okubonayo. Hhayi,
ngiyacela ukuthi ungishayele ngisho ucingo mina.
Ngiyokuphendula, sibone ukuthi senzenjani. Silungise ngoba
siwuMnyango senza konke ukuthi siqiniseke ukuthi izingane
okufanele zithole uxhaso maziluthole, njengoba vele iningi
lazo sezilutholile njengamanje. Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo.
IsiZulu:

 
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USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Sithokoze Mhlonishwa.
Question 122:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chair, we have
acknowledged the challenges and recognised the challenges
caused by lack of co-ordinated planning. Hence, the department
planned and developed a declared 136 priority human
settlements and housing development areas. The intention is to
ensure the integration of planning, funding and development
within priority development areas.
This allows as well for the crowd-in of private sector funding
to support and supplement government funding to achieve a set
of uniform, equitable and integrated development objectives
and outcome. The Priority Human Settlements and Housing
Development Areas, PHSHDAs, as we are calling them, are
incorporated into the various districts and metropolitan
municipalities, where we are talking about one plan - the
District Development Model, DDM.
Within this financial year that is going to start, we will be
announcing a set of changes that are going to assist us to be
able to implement this plan. We are aware of the unfinished
projects – what we call blocked projects - that are forming

 
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part of our work for the 2022-23 financial year, so that we
start unblocking them and responding to what has been
previously the challenge of low co-ordinated planning and some
of the weaknesses that existed because of capacity building.
Thank you very much, Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon
Minister. I am advised that, on the question asked by hon
Masutha, the Hon Tseke will take charge of the follow-up
question.
Sesotho:
Mong M A TSEKI: Ho na le Tseki ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, they wrote
wrongly, they said Tseke, and that is Tseki. Okay! Thank you,
hon Tseki. You may proceed.
Sesotho:
Mong M A TSEKI: Tseki ke monna; Tseke ke mosadi!
English:
This is a follow-up question, hon Chairperson. What are the
main barriers for integrated planning, budgeting and

 
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implementation? And, how does the department, working with
private developers for inclusive economic development are
going to act moving forward? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chair, major issues
that would allow to crowd-in private sector investment is
whether we identify these priority areas to support them with
bulk infrastructure. This is the major part, because when you
look at what private developers want to do is that they are
inhibited because of this area of work where it is costly for
them to do, where it is service that relate to municipalities.
So, what we have done in terms of our Human Settlement
Development Grant, HSDG, is that we have heard when the
Minister of Finance announced in terms of the changes in the
Budget, but also with the Appropriation Division of Revenue
Bill that has been tabled. However, compared to previously, in
terms of non-metropolitan municipalities, we will now be able
to move in terms of direction, from 2% of bulk infrastructure
development to 5%.
Subsequently, the provinces have a leeway of increasing it to
30%, and this will be done as they submit their plans, so that
we can ensure integrated co-ordination - working together to

 
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ensure that what we are developing in terms of the
infrastructure, supports economic growth. Thank you very much,
Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. As we
proceed we now invite the hon Moruti Meshoe!
Mr W M THRING: Chair, the Hon Thring, as I understand it, will
be taking the follow-up question, with your permission.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Allowed!
[Interjections.] Proceed, hon Thring!
Mr W M THRING: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, the challenges
of bulk infrastructure as well as the lack of integration
across all three spheres of government affects most
departments. The ACDP has in this regards raised these
challenges with Department of Trade, Industry and Competition,
DTIC.
The ACDP has also long championed the principle of sweat
equity when building human settlements, as this principle
allows unskilled members of the community to develop an
artisan skill in the process of assisting one’s neighbour to

 
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build a house before building one’s own house. Sweat equity is
Ubuntu in practice.
Will the Minister employ this principle of sweat equity as a
model for building human settlements? If yes, what percentage
of development will be allocated to sweat equity and by when?
If no, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chair, hon Thring,
let us start here: Bulk infrastructure can’t be done by
inexperienced people, because it is work that is done by
engineers. So, this is the work. What do we talk about when we
mention bulk infrastructure? It is the bringing of
connections, for example.
Let me simplify it. When you want to connect sewerage from a
plant to houses, into a community; or when you want to connect
water from dams into communities; or when you want to connect
electricity from the grid into Soweto, you can’t take
inexperienced people to do that. That is why it is done by
engineers, and it is done by professionals. So that is the
first thing.

 
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I think you are confusing things. Where we utilise artisans,
for example, bulk has been put and then you are connecting to
the houses. There you can use artisans under supervision. On
building of houses, yes we utilises artisans as well. So,
there work is currently there. As part of our work in most of
the areas, we do have learners that are trained. Some of them
are coming through EPWP. You would see in provinces where the
MECs as well will have young people graduating as we conclude
the project. So, that work is already there. So, I am not so
sure about this sweat programme that you are talking about,
but it could be just the utilisation of different words of
what already exist in the programmes that we run. Thank you.
Mr B N HERRON: Chairperson, the question as I understand it is
about the alignment or the misalignment between the different
spheres of government spending and planning infrastructure
where human settlement developments are taking place.
Obviously the alignment and planning on socioeconomic
infrastructure across all three spheres of government is
critical in that we are going to address deprivation and
achieve meaningful outcomes of local economic growth and
inclusion.

 
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In 2011, the national government introduced the Built
Environment Performance Plan, BEPP, over there for our
metropolitan municipalities, metros, and it was the
requirement of the metros to prepare this integrated plan
across the three spheres of government, including the SOEs. In
order to qualify for the Urban Settlements Development Grant,
the USDG, the purpose was to align the infrastructure and
other investments in the metros by the three spheres of
government, so that we don’t have these housing developments
taking place where there are no other services.
So, perhaps the Minister can tell us: Does the Built
Environment Performance Plan still play a role in the
allocation of USDG and other funding? This is so that we don’t
have these incomplete and poorly planned... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Herron, I gave you
extra time thinking that you maybe you are not familiar yet
with the Rules. You have one minute to do that, as it comes
from Rule 142, and you haven’t asked your question yet.
Mr B HERRON: I have asked my question. I will ask again...
[Interjections.]

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You did after I gave
you extra time. Minister, please proceed!
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, Chair. Indeed,
hon Herron, I agree with you: Hence, it is part of what we are
doing now. Previously, you would have had the metros
submitting business plans, to say based on the allocation of
the USDG, therefore this is what we are going to do for a
particular year.
What has been the weakness is that the USDG allocation,
together with business plans, would be done between the
national department and the metros directly. When we engaged
with provinces, they raised this as a concern because it
allows for misalignment.
We have agreed that as we do the new business plans in the new
financial year, we will ensure that we involve provinces and
ensure that we sit together in the planning - among ourselves
as national, the provinces and metropolitan municipalities,
which are metros - for the infrastructure and the utilisation
of USDGs, so that there is alignment together with the
Informal Settlement Grant that will be allocated to

 
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municipalities. That work has started already. Thank you very
much hon member.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chairperson, I think we need you as a
referee when Bafana Bafana is playing, when we need to score a
goal, to give us extra time. House Chairperson and Minister,
my understanding is that the human Settlements Development
Grant was created to accelerate the process of housing
development, particularly for those people in the middle-
income group, who do not qualify for bonds or financial
assistance through the financial institutions.
Through the Human Settlement Development Bank and private
investment, we might be able to accelerate this. However, what
is very clear for the last couple of years is that clearly
what you are saying is that you are addressing it, but we lack
the capacity to be able to provide the service sites to be
able to accelerate this process.
Now, Minister, would you consider also speaking to the
Minister of Higher Education, so that we could include in
their curriculum those skills that you need at this local
level to be able to accelerate that process?

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You had your few second
extra – never ask again! The hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chair, let me just
again clarify to hon Shaik Emam: The HSDG, which is Human
Settlement Development Grant, does not cater for social
housing. The Social Housing Programme is what we call Financed
Linked Individual Subsidy Programme, Flisp, or in short, from
1 April 2022, we will be calling it, Help Me Buy A House.
Help Me Buy A House/Flisp is currently run under Social
Housing Regulatory Authority, SHRA, together with National
Housing Finance Corporation, NHFC, is the one that is meant to
close what we call the missing middle, where people who are
not qualifying for Breaking New Ground, BNG or RDP house. RDPs
are funded under HSDG. HSDGs are for our top structures in
terms of our BNGs, as I explained the 2% in terms of our
infrastructure and also some allocation for Government Housing
Rectification Programme, GHRP.
So, what he is referring to is what we are regarding under
social housing programme where we are responding to the
missing middle in terms of applications. That programme is
running very actively, and now we are reviewing it.

 
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On 1 April 2022, we are going to make a full media briefing
hon members, and we will share with you the details of how we
intend to continue with this programme. Thank you.
Question 123:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much,
House Chair. And thanks to the question asked by the member
here. My department has already included the fight against
gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, amongst its flagship
programmes. To that end, and particularly at this point in the
country’s history around the subject specific initiatives have
been put in place as part of our programme. Example here will
be the programme Baqhawafazi, which is a campaign led by young
women tackling this matter of GBVF from the prison of young
women. Golekane programme which is the conversation between
men or fathers and sons looking at this matter. And all of
them are linked to what we call SILAPHA Wellness Intervention
Programme, which is a programme about about mental illness,
substance abuse, legal issues, financial issues and so on.
A victim opted to exercise her legal rights and subjected the
matter to criminal investigations by the SA Police Service. At
least the portfolio committee and ourselves were informed by
Swimming South Africa though SA Sports Confederation and

 
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Olympic Committee, Sascoc. However, the reported incidences
against Swimming South Africa related to allegations of abused
by a coach and staff member gave rise to the urgent need for
an evaluation of what processes were in place to deal with the
full spectrum of safeguarding in sport without interfering
with continuing legal processes. To that end, discussions on
the subject has taken place both within Sascoc and the
Portfolio Committee on Sports, Arts and Culture.
Amongst the practical measures, Chair, which we are looking in
this regard: Firstly, the development and adoption of
safeguarding policy by Sascoc that will be cascaded down to
all its affiliates and national federations. Secondly, the
process which has commenced from the department looking at the
possibility of making the provision of such safeguarding
policy amongst the departments funding criteria. Thirdly, the
prioritisation of schools by the department through the
initiation for measures whereby proper vetting of personnel
dealing with tyrant in sports events is instituted. Fourthly,
the establishment of a sub-committee under the Safety and
Security Commission to deal with the safeguarding of school
children events. Fifthly, the appointment of safeguarding
officers at the events hosted for the various provincial

 
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departments, which will collaborate with SAPS convening of
workshops as part of the school’s sport events.
The last part point there, Chair, is the full co-operation and
participation by my department with the envisage workshop on
the safeguarding in sport that the Portfolio Committee on
Sports, Arts and Culture led by hon Beuty Dlulane has resolved
to convene. Thank you very much.
Ms R C ADAMS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, how does
the department monitor and address sexual abuse minors and
adults in the sector? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: As I have responded,
Chair, thank you very much.
Ms V VAN DYK: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, it is just not
true that Sascoc is serious about safeguarding when their own
reporting email address for these victims and compliance on
their website does not work. An email bounced back as I
previously reported in a portfolio committee meeting.
Minister, what have you done in this regard, the whole Sascoc
held accountable the lack of action to protect victims?

 
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The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, I think the hon
member will help her not just to throw a statement without
substantiation. We have in a comprehensive way explained what
is happening within the department, what the department is
doing, what Sascoc is doing, what Swimming South Africa is
doing, and also what the victim has done, which we support
actually that taking the matter to the law enforcement agency
which at face value comes across as a criminal matter is what
need to be supported. And I think that the hon member quite
clearly should prepared her speech before I responded so that
I understand that. Thank you.
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the
junior sports seems to be a settle ground for sex pests who
want to pray on our children from tennis and especially
trailer tent coach turned rapists to water polo coach which
was rocketed by sexual abuse scandals from two coaches, Collen
Rex at Parktown Boys’ High and Fiona Viotti at Bishops
Diocesan College. These cases are prevalent. Why have you not
established a unit and when are you going to do that, that
will especially deal with prevention of cases like these and
ensuring speedy prosecution of these perpetrators? Thank you.

 
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The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks, hon member. I
thought the member because he is so close to me and whatever I
was saying he heard it. The subject you are raising is a
serious subject. And as a result, we took steps to evaluate
whatever policies are there not only for swimming. It came
about through swimming but it’s a problem which we feel that
all the sporting codes, all the national federations under
Sascoc have to deal with and hence the steps we have put in
here.
If perhaps these steps are inadequate in your view, we would
be very much happy to get more views but it’s a matter we are
dealing with because there is no way and you are correct to
say that our sporting codes cannot be allowed to be used as
the ground for sex pests, especially to our children because
these are the children we are talking about. But these are the
steps as I have said, six steps here which we have put forth
and we believe that they are going to help to alleviate this
problem because it has to be eradicated. Thank you.
Mr W M THRING: Thank you, hon House Chair. Minister, I think
the integration of sport into the academic field of many
students is much appreciated. Within the rule areas in
particular, however, we find that many of the sports

 
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facilities are absent. What is the Minister doing to ensure
that within our rural areas our students in these rural areas
are incorporated into the sports fields? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, thank you very
much, hon Chair, and hon member. I think that the member is
asking a very important question - the question of the
facilities. I want to say, Chair, that with the final
budgetary resources we have as the department through
transfers to provinces and district municipalities, we have
ring fence the Municipal Infrastructure Grant to ensure that
we contributing the building of facilities in our communities
because that is a big problem. Having said that though I must
remind hon member and hon members that this is a national
matter.
The provision of sporting facilities is the responsibility of
the local government and not the National Department of
Sports, Arts and Culture. We are doing all we can because
every year we ensure that in our own way within our own budget
we create these facilities and we open them almost on a weekly
basis. We will continue to do that. But we also urge the
spheres of government which is responsible for facilities to

 
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ensure that these facilities are actually established. Thank
you very much.
Question 76:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much ...
IsiZulu:
... Sihlalo, ngixolise kakhulu, bengisathe shelele ngasendlini
yangasese ngakho ladlula elami ithuba kodwake sengibuyile.
Ngicela ukubonga kakhulu umbuzo ...
English:
... from the hon member and indicate that the Department of
Social Development in its portfolio has a number of prevention
programmes targeting youth at risk of gang involvement and
addressing underlying socioeconomic factors that push young
people to join gangs in the first place. I think that is what
we really need to deal with - what pushes young people to join
gangsterism. Adding that gangsterism and gang violence is a
cross-cutting issue that no single department or entity can
solve alone. To this end we have adopted a whole of society
approach by working with a number of key partners such as
Basic Education, the SA Police Services and Department of
Justice and Constitutional Development, among others, to

 
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implement social behaviour change programmes focusing on
prevention, and prevention is more important, early
intervention, statutory reintegration and after care services.
These programmes include: You only live once, Yolo, targeting
15 to 24 year-olds, ChommY focusing on 10 to 14-year olds and
the developing skills empowering children to make informed
choices to reduce human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, infection
such as substance abuse, boys championing change, men
championing change seeks to involve boys and men in advocacy
and social mobilisation campaigns; Resega, a community-based
prevention and early intervention targeting children and youth
at risk; Ke Moja, I’m fine, without drugs and national
substance abuse prevention programme implemented in all nine
provinces. Specialised community-based probation services
which include, diversion, pre-trial and pre-sentence
psychosocial support to children and youth with conflict,
psychosocial support as early intervention programmes to
create resilience amongst children.
These interventions seek to involve and empower young people
and their families as active social actors in their own
development rather than passive recipients of services with
specific reference to questions, and in addition to the

 
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aforementioned interventions. We are working jointly with
civil society and community-based organisations to implement
the following programme in Cape Flats: Rhythm of Life, playing
through the forest wake-up call, stop to start school and
community-based life skills parenting workshops and the
holiday programme. These interventions are targeting children
and youth at age 10 to 18. Hon House Chairperson, there are
four interventions seek to complement ongoing national efforts
notably the antigang strategy led by the Minister of Police in
a number of areas.
Recently, and I call upon other hon members when they have
requests with the Department of Social Development to do so,
we went to with hon Marie Sukers of the ACDP in Lavender Hill
and surrounding communities to address similar challenges
raised by hon Hendricks. We are also working with Father
Patrick Naughton of the Salesian Institute Youth Project which
is specifically targeting youth at risk from the Cape Flats.
Going forward our plan is to scale up collaborative
interventions in this nature that empower young people and
communities in which they live to deal effectively with
gangsterism and associated challenges.

 
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I therefore urge all members to join hands with government and
communities across the country to wage an unrelenting fight
against gangsterism and illicit drugs, but we must also go
deeper into why are we here and why are the drug lords in men
always roaming the streets or sending children out into the
streets. I thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon House
Chair, the response of the Minister gives us hope and we are
concerned about the Cape Flats and I want to know if the
Minister will extend the same courtesy to Al Jama-ah like she
did to the ACDP to visit an outfit that has some plans to
combat gangsterism on the Cape Flats with an eye on the social
economic response. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: It will only be with
utmost commitment and the pleasure to respond to hon
Hendricks. As I said I responded actually to all Members of
Parliament who would like us to come through as the Department
of Social Development. In fact, I was having a conversation
earlier on before the start of this sitting with the EFF
member, Mam Khawula, who was talking to me about some of the
progress in the areas where she comes from. Therefore, I’m

 
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still indicating that any member who would like us to come
through, we will come through. Thank you.
Xitsonga:
Man N K BILANKULU: Ndza khensa Mutshamaxitulu ku nyikiwa
nkarhi wo landzelerisa ndzi vutisa swivutiso eka muchaviseki
Manana Zulu.
English:
Hon Minister, I heard you answering the question that has been
posed by hon Hendricks, but my follow-up question is, Minister
will you expand your interventions beyond addressing the
challenges in the Cape Flats? Please confirm. Thank you very
much.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngicela
ningangibangeli umsindo ngingekaphenduli nokuphendula.
[Uhleko.] Ngicela nje ningabuzi ... umangabe nifuna ukubuza
imibuzo buzani leyo mibuzo ngizoniphendula.
English:
Thank you very much, hon Bilankulu. Yes, as I indicated that
we are a department at national level and therefore we expand

 
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and go as far as is possible for us. We crisscross the entire
country and you would also be aware as we report to the
portfolio committee of our activities in the Northern Cape, in
the Eastern Cape, in KwaZulu-Natal and across the country. We
actually don’t even choose on the basis of politics where we
go to. We go and address the issues as they are being brought
to our department by all hon members, and all hon members as I
said earlier on should you - particularly those members who
know of hotspots because we would like to target those
hotspots.
However, thank you also hon member for asking the question
because when we indicate that the issue of drug and drug
trafficking and drug abuse is something that has to be dealt
with by all of us in community and society in general because
these people from the drug lords to the users they live within
our community and therefore we must take responsibility and
ask our communities also take responsibilities so that we can
be able to address this once and for all. Thank you.
Ms B S MASANGO: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, we have
seen the benefits of collaborative efforts between the City of
Cape Town’s lip service officers, SA Police Service, SAPS, and
other community and government forums crime stats in hotspots

 
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on the Cape Flats have reduced at some places by double digits
with Nyanga no longer the capital murder of South Africa.
Given these successes in dealing with the social ills through
these efforts, is the hon Minister going to consider a
collaborative partnership with the City of Cape Town, the
Western Cape government, SAPS and other departments tasked
with dealing with gangsterism? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon
Masango and respectfully, I think you’re very much aware that
as the Minister of Social Development one of the things I
don’t do is that I don’t get into any place irrespective of
which government is in office without writing the necessary
letters informing the relevant structures that I am coming
into town. You can also check that with your member of the
executive council, MEC, Minister of Social Development and any
other. Even when I come to the Western Cape I do send
communication because I truly believe that a collaboration and
work that we need to do sometimes we have to realise that the
challenges that are on the ground sometimes and many at times
are just beyond our politicking.
Those are issue that we need to deal with. I am on record you
can check that out. Every time I go anywhere including in the

 
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Western Cape, I do write the necessary letter requesting that
the provincial authorities join me when I go. In fact, even to
the one place that hon Sukers invited me, thankfully the
province and the local structures were there because I invited
them to come along because I believe that some of these issues
need us to put politics aside and deal with the real
challenges that are facing our people – the real needs of our
people. I thank you.
Ms T BREEDT: Thank you, House Chair. House Chair, has the
effectiveness of this department’s programme being evaluated?
And is there actual outcomes that can be measured to
physically indicate that less youth are involved with
gangsterism and could the Minister share the statistics and
outcomes with us. If there is no tangible measurable outcome
this program is fruitless and the youth will remain vulnerable
to gangsterism. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, House
Chairperson. There isn’t any work of this government of the
African National Congress that we don’t evaluate because we
believe that in order for us to have effective impact we need
to go back and evaluate and check whether there’s an impact or
not, number one. Number two, we also have what we call

 
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monitoring and evaluation at national level and at provincial
level with sole responsibility and task is to check the impact
of the programmes of departments including the impact of my
own work as a Minister and all other Ministers. We sign
performance agreement with the President because we have to be
accountable and we have to show what is it that we have done.
However, I do want to say, House Chairperson, that we can have
the most beautiful, the best programmes that we have in place,
if we cannot connect to the local structures, we cannot
connect to the nonprofit organisations, NPOs, and
nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, that also are doing the
work will never be able to get anywhere. Therefore, lastly, I
think that as South Africans collectively we need to
appreciate the fact that there are things that we have to hold
hands in doing, because sometimes if we spread fear amongst
our people and keep on saying that government is not doing
this and government is not doing that. We need to be able to
be united in efforts, especially when it gets to programmes
that are promoting young people and positivity amongst young
people. Thank you.
Question 124:

 
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The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much Chair,
and thank you to Ntate Morwatshehla ... [Inaudible.] ...
programmes. There is a programme which the President announced
during Sona, whereby the Department of Public Works
nationally, under Minister De Lille, is going to assist us and
the provinces with our infrastructure.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister ...
IsiZulu:
... asikuzwa kahle.
English:
Yes, you are not audible.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Let me check ... ooh!
[Interjections.] Oh my goodness!
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Uhambile uNgqongqoshe.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO: Cha, ngibuyile.
English:
I’m just trying to check my volume.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, go ahead, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I am very sorry about that,
Chair. Let me start all over again. I am saying that we have
major problems with our infrastructure in Basic Education, and
as a result we have adopted a number of strategies to help us
deal with the problem. One, we work with the Department of
Public Works under Minister De Lille ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There is a member
who is disturbing us.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION; Okay. We are working with
Minister De Lille to assist us through the Presidential
infrastructure team to deal with the problems. The other
approach we have is an ongoing one where Public Works in
provinces work with the Department of Basic Education to
provide infrastructure. And now because of the crisis we have
about teaching spaces and natural disasters, again as a
national department we have a third programme where we will
work with our provinces to repair schools which are rainstorm
damaged. Where we have overcrowding because of either high
enrolments or poor infrastructure in schools, we use different

 
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methods and different approaches to deal with our
infrastructure challenges, Chair. Thank you very much.
Sesotho:
MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Mong M L D Ntombela): Re a leboha Letona
le hlomphehang. Ke ile ka tseba hore ho tjhetjha ha hao ha se
ho baleha empa ke ho nka matla. [Ditsheho.]
Sesotho:
LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Ke ne ke sa tjhetjha hle ntate.
English:
Ms N G ADOONS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, and
thank you very much Minister. Minister, how is the department
working with various stakeholders to address the problem of
infrastructure delays due to disruptions of projects on the
basis of local empowerment demands. Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, we are experiencing such
challenges but what we have decided as the department, working
with other government department, is to work with the
Department of Police so that they can help us where we have
unreasonable demands. But if demands are legitimate - where
people feel that outside contractors are brought into their

 
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space when they have skills, we try to negotiate with our
service providers.
Basically, as a department, we don’t have the capacity to
deliver. We work with the implementing agents, the Department
of Public Service and Administration and ... [Inaudible.] ...
and all other implementing agents. Our approach is that we
really try to make peace with local people, but if it’s
unreasonable. Sometimes if it’s extortion or it’s criminal, we
bring the Department of Police. It is not being serious of
late. It used to be extremely serious in the past to an extend
that we have to abandon other projects because we were unable
to find each other, with the protesters who were demanding
jobs which they didn’t qualify for. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr B B NODADA: Thank you House Chair. Minister, crumbling
infrastructure and overcrowding in classrooms are chronic
challenges that the education sector continues to face as you
mentioned, while there is inadequate funding for provinces and
reduction in the Education Infrastructure Grant, EIG. Special
purpose vehicles seem to be an admission of failure of the
Accelerated School Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi,
and Sanitation Appropriate for Education initiative, Safe,
programmes which were established with the aim of eliminating

 
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backlogs in school infrastructure such as mud, asbestos and
pit toilets.
What would this new special purpose vehicle offer that would
be different from the Safe and Asidi programmes in addressing
infrastructure backlogs? Will implementing agents that have
continuously failed to deliver on time and some building
schools and wetlands, and some building toilets that are not
working, be involved in this process? And is there
accountability mechanism that we can work towards and
timelines for us to look at in terms of this special programme
that will deal with infrastructure in schools? Thanks, House
Chair
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Well, we first have to admit
that our infrastructure are major challenges. Since we
returned back to school, there is a big problem of teaching
spaces with this incessant rains and storm damage, classes are
falling apart. So, we are the first to admit that we have a
problem. That is why the Presidency had agreed with us that we
will need another vehicle - we are not removing this one - to
add to our capacity, to things differently. But the Asidi
programme is a special project which was given to the national

 
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department to deal with infrastructure. Your phase was meant
to deal with pit latrines.
So, those are special projects which the Department of Basic
Education gets involved in. Generally, as the Department of
Basic Education, it is not our competency to be building
schools - but because we realised that it is a problem, we’ve
decided to work with the provinces and support them. The
member is right when he says that there are quite a number of
things have created problems but the implementing agents ...
As the previous member, hon Adoons, has said construction
mafias who disrupt work on the ground. And all those are being
attended to because it is not just one problem that is
confronting us, it is quite a number of things. I am very
confident that this special agent is going to help in adding
capacity. It is not going to be the only one. It is going to
add capacity to our work because we are admitting that there
are problems in terms of our school infrastructure. Thank you,
House Chair.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Minister, early last year your department announced that it
was suspending about 2 000 infrastructure projects across the

 
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country because there was no money. Apologies House Chair, I
would be taking the question for the hon Mashabela. Minister,
in the Eastern Cape it was announced that the department has
stopped all kinds of infrastructure projects in the province
for the same reasons that I stated above. This is despite the
fact that there are still mud schools and schools with no
water and sanitation in that province. Minister, what are the
sustainable short and long term plans that you have as a
Minister to resolve the problem of school infrastructure in
the Eastern Cape, in particular?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you House Chair and
thank you member for the question. Indeed, with the budget
cuts in order to create space for money to deal with COVID-19,
we did experience budget cuts and as a result had to revise
our plans and only deal with emergencies. The problem is not
only the Eastern Cape, but the problem is national. There are
problems in Limpopo; there are problems in KwaZulu-Natal,
there are problems even in Gauteng for instance with
overcrowding.
What we’ve decided regarding the three approaches is to
approach Treasury, and also the national Department of Public
Works. We need help and extra capacity and extra resources.

 
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The Minister of Finance is working with us. But on our side we
also said that in terms of speeding up the process– it doesn’t
help to be looking for contractors by putting out on tenders.
In provinces like Gauteng, we have already piloted the self-
build projects where there are no big infrastructures, but
additional classes and staff rooms. We use local community
people to build infrastructure in schools as a way also of
fast-tracking our delivery but also ensuring that the
resources and the monies remain in communities which are being
serviced. As I said there are three approaches and those
approaches are meant to address exactly what the member is
raising but also Treasury was working with us to make sure
that we are assisted in terms of dealing with the current
ongoing infrastructure challenges in schools.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Mama uMphathiswa.
UMPHATHISWA WEMFUNDO ESISISEKO: Tata!
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ukuba ndithetha esi siNgesi sam sikaNsfas
abayi kundiva eXhorha. [Uwele-wele.]
Sesotho:

 
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LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Bua ka Sesotho ntate, ha ke tlo
utlwa IsiXhosa le nna.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Mandiqale ndithi Mphathiswa, phaya eXhorha
sasityelele iilali apho kwakususwa khona izikolo zodaka, -
hayi uzakusimamela ngendlebe yakhe kuba bekumele ukuba ulapha
xa engenamntu wokumtolikela.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Hayi qhuba lungu
elihloniphekileyo, qhuba.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ndithi ke ingxaki phaya eXhorha bathetha
ngento yokuba kwizikolo zabo banikwa nje isibonelelo ...
English:
... of R100 000 or more, I can’t remember the specific
amount. It was for the eradication of mud schools but only a
few classrooms would be built – one, two or three. And
immediately after that those classrooms have been built, there
would then not be regarded as mud schools, even though the
rest of the structure is made up of temporary structure such
as prefabricated buildings or just mud structures in general.
We visited a few of those schools where the principals were

 
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complaining about that. How can you address that and ensure
that ...
IsiXhosa:
... asibaqhathi abantu sithi abanazo izikolo zodaka ekubeni
isezizo?
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
Kwankwa.
N L S KWANKWA: I tried to accommodate you by mixing the
languages. [Interjections.] Hon Minister ...
Sesotho:
MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Mong M L D Ntombela): Letona le
hlomphehang, ke kgolwa hore o e tshwere?
Sesotho:
LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Ke a leboha ntate. Ke tla kopa
moetapele moo hore a mphe lenane hantle hobane jwalo ka ha ke
se ke hlalositse, kaho ya dikolo ke mosebetsi wa di profinse.
Empa, ntho yeo re seng re dumellane ka yona ke hore re
sebedisana mmoho le di profinse hore re ba thuse hobane ho ya

 
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ka tlhaloso ya pele ya hore “mud school” ke eng, ke sekolo se
kaofela ha sona se ahilweng ka seretse.
Ha re ntse re tswela pele re sebedisa le di profinse tse
fapaneng eseng Eastern Cape feela, jwalo ka ha ke se ke
hlalositse, Limpopo, Natal, naha ka bophara, re fumana hore di
profinse ha di ya refa lenaneo kaofela. Ka hoo, re sebedisana
le Botshwari ba matlotlo hore e etse Asidi ya bobedi hobane
Asidi ya pele e ne e sebediswa ka lenane leo re le fumaneng di
profinsing mme ra fuwe tjhelete ya lenane leo. Jwale, jwalo ka
ha a bolela mme a bua nnete...
English:
We discovered that there are indeed extra schools which were
not on the original list which keep on being brought forward
by committees and provinces. That is why again we are working
Asidi 2, because Asidi 1 was informed by the numbers that we
were given. And as ... [Interjections.] ... in some areas for
example, you will find out that the school is not on the list,
and it has not been stated to us that it is a mud school, but
we discover that it is a mud school. With the new programmes -
together with Public Works, that is where we are also going
back to remediate where there are existing problems as the
member has correctly stated. Thank you.

 
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Question 93:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, hon Van der Walt,
as the Department of Basic Education, we have adopted, what is
called, the National Reading Sector Plan, to improve reading
for meaning amongst 10-year-olds and the National Reading
Sector Plan is premised on 10 strands.
The first strand is to strengthen teacher capacity; the second
one is strengthening the capacity of the sector itself, to be
able to deal with the matters. The next one is the right
support to learners where we have rallied couching and
training around reading. We are also working with communities
to make sure that there is parental support. There is also
community support. The fifth strand is provisioning of reading
books, because that is the other big problem. He sixth one
enables us to monitor, so that we can track the learner
performance in the areas, so that we are able to conduct
research. To get partners, we have reading champions, to make
sure that we have really support beyond ourselves. We work
with partners such as the National Education Collaboration
Trust, NECT, which is helping us to work with different actors
and people interested in the sector. There is also efficacy,
reading across the curriculum and we are monitoring the
programme.

 
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So, those are the 10 main strands that we have. The member
will know that we also have the early grade reading
assessment, where we assess the current capacity of our kids.
We also have the Primary School Reading Improvement Plan,
because that is where we think it has to start. We also have
the Foundation Phase Reading Framework, because we have the
foundation phase, then the intermediate phase. We also have
the annual teaching plans that guide teachers and we have
provided study guides.
So, in short, we have tried different methods advised by
experts, professionals, researchers on how to deal with these
ongoing challenges. As the members also know, we participate
in all assessments, both regionally and internationally, to
benchmark ourselves against the best.
We also have our own assessment programmes, to check if we are
making progress around these 10 pillars that we have adopted
for the reading strategy. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Dankie Voorsitter, ...

 
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English:
... Minister, I have no doubt that you understand and want to
improve the issue around mother tongue education. However, in
listening to all of what you are already doing, I would like
to ask you whether you have investigated the reopening of our
teacher training colleges, specifically for primary school
teachers and with the extra special focus on mother tongue
language in the foundation phase, and if not, whether you
will. That is important. It is also true that we have to read
with meaning, but we also need teachers who can actually
understand these languages. To add to mother tongue, we would
also like to know whether you will consider, in your
department, looking at printing the workbooks in dual
languages, one page next to the other, like English and
IsiXhosa or Afrikaans and IsiNdebele or whatever? We believe
that we want to add to your plans, to make sure we are
successful. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, hon member, there
is no doubt that mother tongue instruction is the best
instruction for cognatic development. There is no debate about
it, but let me dispose of the teacher training colleges.

 
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I used to ... Twenty years back, I though closing teacher
training colleges was a mistake. In hindsight, which is the
best sight, I think it was a correct decision. The quality of
teachers that we are getting from universities is
immeasurable. As you know, the education system cannot be
better than your teachers. Your teachers are the anchor of the
education system. To give them the best is to get the best.
So, I am now confident that we should not reopen teacher
training colleges; we should continue working with
universities and get the kind of product that we are currently
getting from the young new graduates that come from
universities.
In terms of mother tongue, I am in full agreement with the
member. The member is aware that the Eastern Cape is really
leading. When they call themselves the place of legends, on
this one, they are really legends. For a solid 12 years, they
have piloted with the mother tongue instructions and did all
the things that the member is saying.
They piloted IsiZulu and Sesotho and this year, tested the
learners that started off in Grade 6 learning in IsiXhosa. In
Grade 11 they compared them with those who were only taught in

 
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English. They found that those who were taught in IsiXhosa and
Sesotho far exceeded.
So, we agree with the member that mother tongue is good for
cognitive development, but because of our history, it is
taking lots of investment, research and we are at the point
where we think, as a sector, learning from the Eastern Cape,
we are going to spread the mother tongue. So, I am in full
agreement and ... [Inaudible.] ... welcome.
Ms N G ADOONS: Hon Chair, Minister, what factors contribute to
learners struggling to read with meaning by the age of 10 and
how will the early, childhood development, ECD, migration
contribute to improving learning and development outcomes in
children? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, one of the major
problems, especially for African kids, is when the majority of
kids or learners are expected to learn in a foreign language
from the word go. So, it is a major problem for cognitive
development, if kids are not enabled to learn in their mother
tongue. So, it is a major problem, especially for African
kids.

 
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That is why, as I say, we can have policies, but I think the
solution is mother tongue instruction, and to continue to
build on what the Eastern Cape has started. The other
provinces are already beginning to pilot. For me, that is one
of the major problems.
Secondly, regarding access to reading material, the affluent
families’ kids have access to reading material and they read
quite early. Therefore, if we strengthen the ECD, it will help
us to deal, for instance, with remediation quite early. So, we
will be able to remediate kids with visual problems, speech
problems before they come to school. So, any other thing that
hampers or stalls reading or learning will be dealt with in
the ECD programme.
So, by the time, they come to school, they are school ready
and the sector also understands where the shortcomings and
difficulties are. So, I think it is going to give us a solid
foundation for our children’s development. Thank you.
Ms A M SIWISA: Hon Chair, Minister, with reference to the
familiarity as a principle of simultaneous language learning
outside of the classroom, which basic tools of reading must

 
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you have, to avoid as a submersion approach of teaching taking
place in the classroom? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I hope I understood
the member correctly. The bottom line is, I really think, as a
country, we have to adopt mother-tongue instruction. Indeed,
we will find that, for instance, in Gauteng, we will not be
able to have a pure class in Sesotho or in isiXhosa, the way
they are able to do it in the Eastern Cape. So, they are
supposed to use any language that the kids know. The biggest
problem, as the member says, is that, in classes, teachers use
different languages. So, if kids do not understand, they speak
in the language that they understand.
However, when they go to assessment, they are assessed purely
in that language that they did not understand for learning.
Then teachers are no longer testing their cognitive
development or understanding, but they are now testing their
language abilities. That is a problem. It is a problem when
Afrikaans speaking kids will start from Grade 1. They don’t
necessarily need to know English and they are able to succeed
in life, even if they did not start in their mother tongue.

 
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So, we are saying that the same dispensation must be done. And
we have started the process. So, the next step is to assess
them in the language in which they were taught, so that we are
able to assess performance, not language proficiency. Thank
you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu K P SITHOLE: Angibonge kakhulu Sihlalo.
English:
Hon Minister, recently, the world observed Internal Mother-
Language Day. The theme of the 2022 International Mother-
Language Day was: Using technology for multilingual learning:
Challenges and opportunities. Multilingual education, based on
mother language is a key component of inclusion in education
and during the Covid-19 school closure, many schools around
the world and countries employed the technology-based solution
as distance-learning tools. How will this department ensure
that learning tools, programmes and content exist for all, and
are able to reflect language diversity?
IsiZulu:
Ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Ngiyathokoza.

 
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English:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, indeed we celebrated
that International Mother-Language Day in the Eastern Cape as
a province leading in this aspect, with Pansalb and all other
agents that are working in education. We agree with the theme
that, for our development to be fast-tracked, to be
strengthened and to be deepened, we need to deepen our mother-
tongue instruction in schools. And we must use technologies
like radios for teaching, so that one can teach Mathematics on
a Sesotho medium or a IsiZulu station in IsiZulu, because we
are teaching concepts and not the language.
So, it means we must use all the different media, but also
that we have to develop the material, as the member from ...
[Inaudible.] ... the appropriate language, the appropriate
terminology. So, if you want to say that something is
bacteria, ...
IsiZulu:
... awuthi yigciwane ...
Sesotho:
... kapa o re ka Sesotho ke kokwanahloko.

 
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IsiZulu:
Akusiyigciwane i-bacteria. Uma ungenalo igama elifanele
lokuthi yini i-bactria uzothi i-bacteria kuphelele lapho.
English:
... but then we really have to use technology to make sure
that we can streamline and strengthen, because the advantage
of technology, as they use it in the Eastern Cape, is to be
very scientific. So, it is a major programme that we are
embarking on. So, you need to scientifically and
systematically ...
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga. Ngiyaxolisa ukuthatha isikhathi eside.
Question 109:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, if you go to our
website and look at the education realities, we have these
figures: In 2011 we registered 1 177 089 learners to Grade 1.
We can’t give you the 2012 statistics for Grade 12 because we
only release statistics in September when we have verified
information from first term and second term and we are only
able to give you clean information data around September. I

 
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will then share the 2011 data for Grade 11 and not 12 as the
member had asked.
So, for Grade 11 in 2021 we had 954 069 leaners, and the
question was what is the cause for the fall; where are the
others? Indeed, as a country, up to Grade 9 we have almost 99%
school attendance. In Grade 10 we see a huge dive and we were
quite fortunate that Statistics SA conducted research for us
and say what the challenges are. Some were challenges that we
were aware of but some of the challenges surprised me.
One of the challenges that came up are cognitive challenges of
the Further Education and Training, FET, curriculum that when
learners go to Grade 10 they are expected to specialise and
there is only one narrow curriculum which is why we now have a
three stream curriculum that caters for children’s gifts,
interests and abilities. That is the first thing that we have
done. We have also picked up that, because at that age there
are teenagers and there are social difficulties in our
communities, we experience unwanted pregnancies and teenage
juvenile delinquency. Hence, we see lots of kids trapped in
drugs and others going to prisons. This is also one of the
problems that we have and it is also why we are strengthening
our social support programme to learners.

 
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What surprised me was that some learners leave because of
poverty. It surprised me not so much that I am not aware that
there is poverty, but I had thought that as government we have
done some work in terms of no fee schooling, teaching, scholar
transport, free books, to help us protect quite a number of
learners. But Statistics SA tells us that when they become
conscious of themselves they start to feel too embarrassed to
come to school with broken shoes and torn shirts and as a
result they leave school. That is why we are working with
Social Development.
We have identified the different reasons why we see this dive
after Grade 9 and we are trying to deal with it in different
ways, including curriculum support and strengthening our
teaching at senior phase before they go to the FET phase where
they drop out in big numbers. We are also starting them young
and investing so much in Early Child Development, ECD, to set
out very solid and strong foundations for them to be able to
continue their education. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr K CEZA: It’s hon Ceza, Chair, taking a question on behalf
of hon Mashabela. Minister, over the past decade we have
observed consistent high rates of school dropouts in this
country. It was reported last year that the lockdown had

 
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contributed to the highest rate of dropouts in history with
over 500 learners who were meant to be in school not in
school. This is a crisis, Minister. What factors have
contributed to these abnormally high rates of dropouts and
what intervention have you, Minister, made to ensure that all
those who must be in school do attend school? Thank you very
much.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I do not want to argue
statistics but I can say that as a department I am not sure if
there is anybody who is able to collect statistics better than
us, because we take attendance registered every year. We are
the ones who register learners and so we are the first to know
if children this year have not come and what has happened. So,
any statistics outside education realities I treat it with
doubt because it’s a sample of whatever methodology people
used to get samples. So, I do not want argue statistics.
I am saying that in education realities if you go into our
system, every year in September we issue statistics of how
many learners we registered, how many learners have been in
the system until the fourth term and that is it. In terms of
where the member is right and our fear and our anxiety is
around the impact of COVID-19 on learners returning to school.

 
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We will only see the impact from statistics. We have to see
how many learners — because up to last year some parents were
not comfortable and we saw a huge growth of home schooling,
and now learners are coming back into the public sector in
numbers.
In my previous reply, so that I do not take time, I explained
what it is that we do as a sector to deal with dropout rates,
repetition rates and in fact I will explain on what other
interventions we have. We have, as I have said, support
programmes so that if it is curriculum difficulties that
forces them to go out it is ... [Inaudible.] ... We even have
a progression policy so that if learners keep on failing Grade
11 then we don’t allow them to fail because sometimes it is
that which discourages them from attending school. We then
give them extra classes as progressed learners. So, these are
the different things we are doing. We are not arguing but we
are equally concerned and for us, in any case, it would be an
indictment if after 11 years of investing in these children we
lose them to the streets. We are doing all we can to make sure
that we don’t lose that investment.
Ms N G ADOONS: Chairperson, to the Minister, what mechanism is
the department implementing to track dropouts and how will the

 
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Basic Education Laws Amendment, BELA, Bill amendments respond
to this problem in a sustainable manner as highlighted in the
President’s input to the Bill which will soon be undergoing
public hearings? Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, as I said, the
question of dropout rates is an old problem; it is not a new
problem. But what we can say as a country is that we are very
encouraged that we are increasing our retention rates, which
is why even last year we had the highest numbers of learners
writing matric. This means that our efforts to really deal
with dropout rates are paying dividends, and the member will
know that we have done quite a number of things.
But I think as much as we must be concerned as South Africans,
we should not be alarmists because as a country we are one of
the few countries in the third world which is able to retain
as many learners as we are retaining in the schooling system,
which is not a consolation because we shouldn’t lose any one
of them. So, we are putting in place different measures.
Schools also do follow-ups and send people to check where
learners are, have they moved houses, are they unwell, are
they still alive? They are also human beings and you will

 
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think they have dropped out when the Maker has called them.
So, schools do follow-up and even ourselves are doing all
things through the curriculum and support according to what we
have identified.
Our curriculum changes are meant to address some of the
problems that we have identified. The three-stream curriculum
is supposed to help kids — because the dropout is at Grade 10,
11 and 12 — in terms of curriculum, career choices, the
support that they get. Also, strengthen the social support so
that if it is depression, kids have lost parents to COVID,
there is adequate safety net to protect them against other
things that might have confronted them socially which are not
necessarily educational. Thank you, Chair.
Mr B B NODADA: Chair, to the Minister, according to your own
department’s food basket of reporting, for the 2021 matric
results the Free State was the province that achieved the
highest pass rate. However, if you consider the number of
learners enrolled in Grade 10 in 2019 to the same cohort who
actually passed matric in 2021, the dropout rate was one of
the highest in the country. This reporting may be encouraged
by the leaked table reporting which encourages provinces to

 
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drop low performing candidates to improve their own pass
rates.
Despite the fact that some learners might have failed or some
might have gone to TVET colleges, this dropout rate remains
very high with 3,3 million youth not in education, employment
or skills training, and the department recently reported that
there is over 160 000 learners that did not return this year.
The reality is that these learners don’t have skills to
participate in the economy and might end up living a lifetime
of poverty. Minister, will you consider the DA’s proposal that
the President acknowledged in his reply on his state of the
nation address as a workable suggesting for the department to
work with Department of Social Development and the Department
of Higher Education and Training and provincial education
departments to develop a learner tracking and tracing and
retention mechanism for learners who actually dropout? Thank
you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EYISEKELO: Baba u-Nodada, uthatha
izinto ozizwe ngathi uzilethe kithi kube ngathi zivela kunina.

 
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English:
That is sometimes my problem, but let me leave that ...
IsiZulu:
... ke mhlawumbi yinto yepolitiki ukuthi into enhle
uyazithathela ube ngumnikazi wayo.
English:
What I am saying is that it is not possible to really ... It
is only March and we are still dealing with registrations.
Anybody is going to come with statistics and say that here is
the learner dropout. As I said, it is simple, you will hear
from us ...
IsiZulu:
... baba u-Nodada ngoSepthemba sinitshele ukuthi bangaki
abantwana ababuyile nokuthi bangaki abangabuyanga kanye
nokuthi baphi abanye ...
English:
... where are the others who might have gone to home schooling
and all sorts of problems. For now, let us not play with
figures, as I said, we just give us unnecessary problems. We
are the best place to give you the correct figures. We have no

 
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reason to hide. We are collecting them because it is in our
interest to know where our learners are.
In terms of different methods, we are currently guided,
correctly so, by partners in Parliament because indeed it is
important for us to get what other parties are saying. But we
are also guided by our own structures as the ruling party and
by researchers, academics even Statistics SA. So, if you have
any fresh idea which ...
IsiZulu:
... okuyivelakancane la kunina, kuletheni ...
English:
... and we will consider it. Any other thing that will protect
our children is in our interest. We are not that irresponsible
not to appreciate the dangers of learner dropout and
repetition rates and that is why we are putting whatever
measures in place to protect our children against the same
things that you are saying. So, we are just as responsible,
Tata Nodada, if not more, around the lives of our children.
Thank you very much, Chair.

 
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Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chairperson, to the Minister, I think
you must agree with me and I think you have alluded to some of
the problems which we have in the schools which is resulting
in learners staying away from school and then very
importantly, the number of them that dropout from school.
Further to that is the fact that a great percentage of them
that go to TVET colleges from basic education also drop out
there as well. Now, the question is, and I think you have just
given us the answer a short while ago, what can we do
differently Minister?
I want to say to you, Minister, can we introduce things in
schools that will encourage and entice these learners to stay
in school? I will give you one good example, when we went to
school we had interclass, interhouse, interschool, interzone,
interprovince sporting activities, music and whatever it is.
This encourages learners to stay in school.
Very importantly, many of these vulnerable children are coming
from dysfunctional homes. Now, will you consider talking to
our Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture together with the
Minister of Social Development to introduce this so that we
could have a vigorous programme to encourage them and keep
them at school? Thank you very much.

 
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The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Member Emam, I will not
disagree with you, sport, music and talent search has to
happen. These are the things we are doing. When I said that we
have strengthened our social care and support programme, it
looks at questions of sport. We have a vibrant sport programme
in our schools. You can go to Eisteddfod it even produces
professionals. We have music in our schools, but we are also
having the care and support on things like violence, bullying
and unwanted pregnancies. We have tried to work with the
sectors to identify where the threats are and develop a
programme around all those threats.
When we were saying we even want to have a comprehensive
sexuality education it was basically to deal also with some of
the problems that force children to drop out of schools which
is unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. We have programmes
where we deal with youth criminality because some of these
kids end up in prisons. So, all these number of things that
you are raising, as I said, are the reason why we have gone
out of our way to make sure that we strengthen our care and
support programme which deals with all those activities. Thank
you very much.
Question 125:

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, thank you very much and thanks to hon Letsie, for
the question. My answer is that currently, Higher Health,
which is our implementing agency assisting us with all matters
related to health and wellness in our post school institutions
has finalised guidelines that institutions should follow in
determining various matters around vaccination. I am currently
studying these guidelines before I can release them for
implementation by all of our institutions.
However, in the process of the finalisation of these
guidelines in relation to vaccine mandates and management of
the academic year through Higher Health I have urged all our
institutions to ensure that the policies and procedures they
put in place have been widely consulted on campus because
whilst Higher Health comes with guidelines this have come a
little bit later when institutions had already started making
consultations. I have said that they continue to consult but
to ensure that they reach the widest possible consultations
also being guided by the Constitution – by the way - which
says that no right is absolute.
Those who are pushing their right not to vaccinate they do
have that right but also those who have vaccinated they have a

 
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right to feel protected so that we don’t have an imbalance. At
the moment though I am very pleased to say that there are a
number of education awareness drives that are being conducted
by Higher Health. My department working with Higher Health
will work very closely with universities and colleges
management and Student Representative Council, SRC, to ensure
that we encourage staff and students to get vaccinated because
vaccination is safe and saves lives.
There is also a ministerial task team that is engaging all our
stakeholders which is chaired by our Deputy Minister, hon Buti
Manamela, which is also meeting to discuss with the
stakeholders on how best to deal with the challenge of
vaccination so that we make sure that we have inclusive
discussions. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Sesotho:
Mong W T LETSIE: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. Ke leboha Letona ka
ho araba potso ya di ente hantle tjena.
English:
Minister, I am one of the very few people I think in this
House who are very happy that your Ministry, the department
through Higher Health are in the process of finalising these

 
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guidelines in relation to vaccine mandates and management of
the academic year. In my view, hon Minister, we cannot allow
the universities to have their plans in isolation. Over and
above those guidelines, hon Minister, what are we doing to
ensure that students are not excluded to access higher
education by these vaccination policies in different
institutions? What are you doing about institutions now with
that are refusing students access to higher education? Thank
you very much.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Thanks to hon Letsie for
an appropriate follow-up question. I want to say that whilst
we encourage everyone in the post school education system to
be vaccinated – as I have said – this must be balanced also
with the constitutional right to education. Otherwise, we must
protect both rights of those who are saying that they will not
vaccinate, which is unfortunate. However, we must also protect
those rights of those who have vaccinated to remain safe. We
cannot be focussing only on the rights of those who say they
will not vaccinate.
Therefore, that is why - as I have said - we are encouraging
an inclusive discussion and an inclusive debate. The way that

 
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the institutions have been operating make sense because whilst
they have been pushing and insisting rightly so that students
and staff must vaccinate, they have not turned some students
down. That is what I am saying they should not do in order to
ensure that they get admitted to academic programmes.
However, hon Letsie, this does pose a problem. How do you
balance these rights when you have in the same lecture room
those who have vaccinated and those who have not vaccinated
and be able to actually cater for both? That is why Higher
Health has assisted us by coming with guidelines that will
ultimately help us to overcome this. I don’t think that there
is any institution which want to deprive any student his or
her right to actually access academic institutions. I will not
tolerate any unfair discrimination whilst understanding that
institutions have rights to protect everybody. Thank you very
much, hon House Chair.
Dr N V KHUMALO: Thank you, hon House Chair. Since South Africa
does not have a policy on mandatory vaccination as stated by
the Minister and given that some higher education institutions
have implemented mandatory vaccination policies which do allow
for exemptions for religious and medical reasons, in your own
words, Minister, no right is absolute, what has your

 
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department put in place to ensure that the rights of those who
are exempted or are protected don’t get excluded from
accessing facilities that vaccinated students and staff have
access to including access to resources related to online
learning? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
N V Khumalo, thanks for the follow-up. I should have said by
the way already but your question then requires that I say
this, government is looking into this matter of vaccine
mandate because the decision must be a decision by government
as a whole. It can’t just be a decision that gets taken by
higher education sector. So, for this reason, that is why the
President has assigned the Deputy President, hon D D Mabuza,
to actually undertake a process of consultation with a variety
of stakeholders and society which is what the Deputy President
is doing at this point in time in order to be able to
determine what needs to be done, what position should
government adopt with regard to vaccine mandate.
In addition, also, my own Department of Higher Education,
Science and Innovation through the Human Sciences and Research
Council, has been conducting surveys just to establish what
the attitude of South Africans is towards the vaccine mandate

 
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issue. Those studies are now finalised and we will be
releasing some of them not long from now. Together with the
guidelines of Higher Health that will then ensure as to how we
will manage this situation in a manner that balances
everybody’s rights.
Indeed, institution are using blended methodologies of online
as well as physical contact whilst at the same time seeking to
assure the safety of everybody. I hope you will appreciate
that. This is not an easy matter because we are actually
balancing rights that are in this case are often conflicting.
That is why the guidelines by Higher Health and the ones I
have already issued are important to have discussions because
the institutions that are following certain policies now have
had fairly wide consultations. Some of the policies that they
have been adopted have actually been accepted by their own
universities and colleges councils. Thank you very much.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you Chairperson. I am asking this
question on behalf of hon Zondo. Hon Minister, vaccination be
set aside, has your department considered the operational and
logistical requirements that would have to be first
implemented nationally as well as time delays inherent in
meeting such requirements? Should a directive be issued which

 
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require mandatory vaccination, this will surely delay such
processes and render such mandate if it were to be issued,
unimplemented. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thanks, hon House Chair. Sorry, I did not hear who the member
was, other than saying that she is asking on behalf of hon
Zondo.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Umama, ilungu
elihloniphekile uHlengwa.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Oh!
Hon Hlengwa ...
IsiZulu:
... Mahlahla.
English:
Oh! Thank you very much. I just want to assure you that were
we to adopt mandatory vaccination policy, as the higher
education sector we are more than ready to deal with that
because Higher Health has actually long been rolling out

 
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vaccination programmes in our post school education and
training institutions. By the way, even in rural areas we have
got mobile clinics that have been visiting Technical and
Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges and
university campuses that are in rural areas pushing this thing
of vaccination.
Higher Health has long been ready and working together with
the Department of Health. Were we to go the route of vaccine
mandates, I am actually confident that we would be able to
meet that with the capacity that we have built with Higher
Health. Hon Hlengwa, in addition to that, some people have
their own methods and ways to go and vaccinate. Some use their
medical aid schemes to vaccinate with their own medical
practitioners or go to particular clinics, to chemists to be
able to do that.
However, on our side I want to assure you that there will be
no any insurmountable challenge in terms of vaccinating or
ensuring that everybody who comes in our campuses is
vaccinated if were we to go the route of vaccine mandate. That
is why we have this huge campaign of encouraging everyone in
our sectors staff and students to be able to go and vaccinate.

 
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We are quite comfortable that we will be able to do that
through Higher Health. Thank you very much, hon House Chair
Mr W M THRING: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister,
section 12 subsection 2(c) of our Constitution grants all
South Africans the right of not to be subjected to medical or
scientific experiments without their informed consent. The
Nuremburg Code and the Universal Declaration of Bioethics and
Human Rights of United Nations Educational, Scientific and
Cultural Organisation, UNESCO, to which South Africa is a
signatory both inform that preventative and medical
interventions can only be carried out with the prior free and
informed consent of the person concerned based on adequate
information.
Additionally, science had revealed that COVID-19 vaccines lose
their efficacy about six months and those who have been
vaccinated are still able to contract and transmit the virus.
Now, knowing these and other indisputable scientific facts and
that mandates negatively discriminate against students, will
the Minister call for all educational institutions of higher
learning who have instituted mandates to have these mandates
unconditionally removed in keeping with the President’s

 
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promise to the nation in February 2021, that vaccine mandates
will not be instituted on South Africans? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Thring. Hon
Thring, as I have said that we are calling for everyone to
vaccinate because vaccines are scientific. You, yourself, hon
Thring, you would not be sitting in Parliament today being
alive even asking me this question were it not for the fact
that you were vaccinated right when you were born. The fact
that you do not have polio is as a result that at some stage
as a child you were actually vaccinated. Your body is carrying
vaccination.
I actually find that some of your arguments actually is anti-
vaccine. You are part of the anti-vaxxers. Now, you have a
right to adopt that. However, anti-vaxxers also have no right
to prescribe to those who want to vaccinate and be safe as to
what actually needs to be done. That is why the route that
government is following is the correct route. To say firstly
... [Interjections.] ...
Mr W M THRING: ... on a point of order, Chair ...

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: ...
let the Deputy President ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr W M THRING: ... on a point of order, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... hon member,
just hold your horses. Hon Minister, you still have time to
answer.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Let
the Deputy President lead the consultations processes because
we are ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr S N SWART: ... sorry, hon Chair, hon Thring was raising a
point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, can
you hold? Hon Swart, what is the point of order?
Mr S N SWART: The hon Thring was raising a point of order but
I presume it related to the hon Minister casting aspersion
against his character and labelling him as being an anti-
vaxxer. Let it be a known fact that we are not anti-vaccine.
Thank you.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart, I don’t
think that is proper. Hon Thring cannot begin to go into an
argument with the Minister. Hon Macphersson! Please. He cannot
go into a debate with the Minister while he is answering the
question.
Mr S N SWART: Sorry, Chair. He was a raising a point of order
though.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I don’t have a
problem with him raising a point of order, but remember that
the Minister is responding to his question. Now, he goes into
a conversation with him. I won’t allow that.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Chair. Chair, may I then raise the
point of order from my side?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, what is your
point of order, Sir?
Mr S N SWART: In terms of Rule 85, it is my assertion that the
Minister is casting aspersions against the hon member and I
would ask you to look at the Hansard in this regard and make a
Ruling at an appropriate time. The basis is that he said that

 
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Mr Thring is an anti-vaxxer, when our position on this issue
is very well known.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, thank you
very much. I will look at the issue and come back to you, Sir.
Minister, you still have some few seconds. If you are done it
is fine. You can still continue if you still have something to
say further. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much. I just want to say quickly, hon House
Chair, I am willing to amend my position and say the hon
member, Thring, is not an anti-vaxxer. However, his argument
is similar to that of anti-vaxxers - if that is actually going
to help. All what I wanted to say is that the reason why we
are emphasising consultation is to balance everybody’s right.
Scientifically, vaccines do work. I want to say in my capacity
as the Minister of Science in this country that vaccinations
do work, it is not today’s thing. Much as there are challenges
to the future of epidemiology of this particular virus we
cannot say with certainty. However, already we have learnt
enough to know what actually needs to be done and how can that
be done. We urge all South Africans to vaccinate. I urge
consultation within our institutions whilst campaigning for

 
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vaccination to be done by everybody. Thank you very much, hon
House Chair.
Mr W M THRING: May I raise my point of order, hon House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Who is raising a
point of order?
Mr W M THRING: Is hon Thring.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Thring, what is
your point of order?
Mr W M THRING: Chair, my point of order is, I understand the
dilemma that the Minister faces in the position that he holds,
but when members within the House like myself, who have been
vaccinated who are very clearly and continuously stated that
we are not anti-vaccination ... [Interjections.] ...
An HON MEMBER: ... Chairperson ...
Mr W M THRING: ... for the Minister to cast out aspersions is
uncalled for, Chair.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Thring, hon
Thring, the session that you have now is for the Ministers to
respond to the questions that you put forward. The Rule of the
House has it that, you have to be happy or satisfied or
understand the answer from which the Minister comes from. If
you are not happy with those responses, then, there are
particular Rules to follow ... [interjections.] ...
Mr W M THRING: ... it is not the Minister’s responses, hon
Chair, but the aspersions he is casting ... [Interjections.]
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... but you cannot
go into a debate, hon Thring. Even the point of order that has
been raised on your behalf by the hon Swart, I am tempted to
say, that was a political statement. However, because we have
already promised that we will come back to that, we will
definitely come back to hon Swart about that.
Mr W M THRING: I think my point is made. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Thring, thank
you very much.

 
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Question 87:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, thanks to hon Zondo, Mthiyane, for the question.
I would like to say that I appointed a Ministerial Task Team
to look at the functionality and the operating model of the
National Skills Fund, NSF, because I was concerned, even
before I started the forensic investigation, that there are
certain serious capacity issues and operational deficiencies
in the manner in which the NSF is operating. That is only been
underlined by the audit disclaimer that they actually got.
Now, the Ministerial Task Team gave me, two weeks ago, an
interim report on progress that they are making and we have
agreed that by the end of June they must give me a final
report on the operations, strengths and weaknesses that will
determine all these issues that are being asked by hon Zondo
on internal checks and balances.
There are clearly serious weaknesses on internal checks and
balances of the NSF; I have no doubt about that. The interim
report has said there’s such but they said that they still
want to go deeper to actually do a complete analysis and also
so that they will come with very concrete proposals on how to

 
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strengthen this important entity such that it is able to do
its work.
Lastly, the total cost of the forensic investigation services
is going to be R2 019 142,77. Thank you very much, hon House
Chair.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Minister, there is the likelihood of
maladministration within this department as the sum of
R5 billion cannot just be completely unaccounted for.
I would like to know whether you are willing to commit to date
upon which this forensic report will be made publicly
available?
And further, upon such publication if any persons are found to
have been acted unlawfully, what immediate sanction will you
commit to the department to impose on these individuals?
However, if you are saying no to sanctions, please provide
your full motivation. Thank you, hon Chair.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME, EZESAYENSI NEZOKUSUNGULA
IZINTO EZINTSHA: Ngiyabonga kwilungu elihloniphekile ubaba

 
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uSithole, Jobe! Yiloku engifuna ukukusho. Zivumelena
nabaphenyi ababheke lolu daba luka-R5 billion yale mali
engathi ayisetshenziswanga ngendlela eyiyona ukuthi
bazonginika umbiko ekupheleni kwale nyanga esikuyona. Kusho
ukuthi emuva kokuthi baqede ukunginikeza lokho, sesiyowubuka-
ke lowo mbiko bese siwuphindisela ekomidini lelo okuthiw i-
Scopa lePhalamende. Sesiyobanika. Sithembe ukuthi lokho
sizokwenza kungapheli inyanga kaEphreli uma sibambeka kancane
noma kanjani ngoMeyi ngoba kuyofuneka siwuhlole lowo mbiko.
Kodwa enye into engifuna ukuyisho ukuthi la kukhona khona
ubugebengu bokudliwa kwezimali ngendlela engafanele
sizozithatha izinyathelo. Kodwa enye into, Jobe, okufunakala
kubuye siyibheke, lezi zimali ngesinye isikhathi
azisetshenziswa ngendlela eyiyona hhayi ngoba kukhona amasela
ngokuthi kutholakala umphakathi uzocela, ucela ukuthi sicela
ukufundisa intsha yethu ukupenda nokubeka isitini kodwa sibone
ukuthi abanalo abantu ulwazi lokuthi izimali ziphathwa
kanjani. Bese ziphathwa budedengu ngalolo hlobo. Nalokho
kumele sikulungise, Jobe, masingagcini ngokujezisa kuphela.
Masikwazi ukuthi futhi zigqugquzele ukuthi imiphakathi yakithi
ehluphekayo siyilekelela kanjani ukuthi uma inezidingo
esizibonile, uma siyinika uxhaso, yenza iziqiniseko ukuthi
imali bayiphathisa okwezikhali zamaNtungwa.

 
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English:
In other words, corrective consequence management, yes, must
be taking harsh action against the corrupt, but consequence
management can’t be only that. We come from very poor
communities who have legitimate needs for training in this
regard, but they don’t have the capacity. Sometimes programmes
do not go well because of lack of capacity rather than ill-
intentions for corruption.
So, consequence management must also be about corrective
action at the same time. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Ms D P SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson ...
IsiZulu:
... baba Ngqongqoshe usushilo ukuthi kuzokwenzekalani kwi-NSF
sicela ukwazi ukuthi kuyobe sekwenzekani ngalezi ezinye
izinhlangano ngoba kwi-NSF sekukhona okwenzekayo kuyo?
Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME, EZESAYENSI NEZOKUSUNGULA
IZINTO EZINTSHA: Kwilungu elihloniphekile umama uSibiya,
ngiyabonga ngombuzo wakho. Ubalulekile lo mbuzo owubuzayo
kodwake bekuyoba kuhle sixoxisane ukuthi mhlawumbe yiziphi

 
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lezi ezinye izinhlangano obuzisho bese ubuya sibonisane.
Ngingakujabulela futhi ukuthi ukulethe lokho noma sesiqhubeka
sihlangana ekomidini. Kodwa engifisa nje ukuthi ngikwenze
ukuthi ukhululeke emoyeni, uma zonke izinhlangano ezingaphansi
kwami ukuthi zonke izinto ezitholwa nguMcwaningimabhuku
Omkhulu ezingalungile ngenze isiqiniseko ukuthi ziyalandelwa.
Ngiqala mina nje ngokuthi la emnyangweni uma ngibambe
umhlangano wami nomqondisi-jikelele ngithi kubona abangitshele
ukuthi kuleyo naleyo nhlangano okuthiwe kunezinto
ezingahambanga kahle sizokwenza kanjani ukuthi lezi zinto
ziyaqondiswa babuye bazobika imibiko.
Uyabona nje cishe ngihlangana kathathu noma kane ngonyaka
nomqondisi-jikelele wami namasekela mqondisi-jikele akhe.
Nginento nje emile, ngithi ...
English:
... standing item: corrective actions for the Auditor-General
support ...
IsiZulu:
Ngobe yiyo into leyo engigadile ukuthi sonke isikhathi ngazi
ukuthi kumhlangano nomhlangano sesihambe kangakanani

 
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ukulungisa izinkinga la sibona khona ukuthi zikhona
njengokukhomba koMcwaningimabhuku Omkhulu. Ngakulolo hlangothi
ngicela siqiniseke. Uma kukhona okunye mama uSibiya,
ukhululekile nje ukuthi-ke uze kumina njengelungu
elihloniphekile ungithinte uthi, Hhayi Ngqongqoshe kukhona
engingakuboni lana. Siyokwazi ukuthi sihlale phansi ngikwazi
ukukuchaza sibambisane ngendlela vele esihlale sibambisene
kahle ngayo. Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngalowo mbuzo wakho.
English:
Ms C V KING: Minister, for two consecutive years the Auditor-
General raised concerns about the internal financial controls
of the National Skills Fund and of National Student Financial
Aid Scheme, NSFAS, which prompted you, as you rightfully said,
to set up a Ministerial Task Team to investigate and for
Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, to call for
forensic investigation to be conducted by the Special
Investigation Unit, SIU. And not merely have the SIU involved
in issues that relates to its mandate, from the private
investigators’ funding, which then questions your confidence
in the ability of the SIU.
Minister, why then did you sought to embark on a plus
R2 million contractual agreement with a private forensic

 
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company whereas NFSAS investigation was conducted by the SIU
during the same period?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
King, thank you very much. But I’m really thanking you halfway
because your questions, they become – I’m sorry to say this –
very convoluted and mixing a lot of thing that do not mix.
It’s a pity one doesn’t have time to fully explain what I’m
saying.
But let me quickly say this, that the forensic investigation
by the NSF was done by myself and I had appointed private
investigators because forensic investigators, mostly, are
private. By the time Scopa said ‘why don’t you ask the SIU?’,
I’m not against working with the SIU, but I had already
contracted a private forensic investigator to do the work. I
wasn’t running away from the SIU, as some people often claim,
I had already signed an agreement.
And I’ve said if there are any things from this forensic
investigation that would require the SIU to look into, I will
consider that. But if there’s no need, I will be able to act
on the basis of that report. There is nothing that stops me
directly to act, either I hand over things to the National

 
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Prosecuting Authority, NPA, or I hand over things to the Hawks
and so on, I will do that.
NSFAS got an unqualified audit this last financial year. So,
don’t come here and give an impression that everything is just
going haywire at NSFAS.
What was being investigated by the SIU at NSFAS was a matter
raised more than three years ago by the Administrator on what
he had found out when he arrived as the Administrator; that’s
already more than three years ago. And we have said ‘let the
SIU continue to then find out what actually happened during
that time’.
But as of now NSFAS got an unqualified audit and NSFAS also
has come to explain both at Scopa as well as in the portfolio
committee on additional actions they are actions over and
above the corrective measures that were taken by the
Administrator.
This thing of casting aspersions ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon Minister.

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: ...
to our institutions, hon House Chair, is just not good ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: ...
let’s talk on the basis of facts. Thank you very much.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Minister, the Auditor-General noted that this
money could not be accounted for in the last two financial
years; this is the National Skills Fund. We are not speaking
about five rand or five thousand or five million; and this
money can’t just disappear like this “shhhh”, it happens over
a period of time.
Why did it take you this long to be concerned about the
missing funds?
And also, Minister, can you take this House in to confidence
and tell us that this money did not find its way into that
ailing stokvel [saving scheme], the SA Communist Party?

 
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Paulsen, I’m not going to be tempted by your diversified, by
trying to divert my attention. To actually try and throw
stones at a political party that is not represented here in
Parliament is opportunism in the worst form.
You want me to also start asking about the EFF
[Interjections.] and the Venda Building Society, VBS, Mutual
Bank money?
Let’s go and have a proper discussion so that also the EFF
must start answering question about its relationship with VBS.
[Interjections.] A matter that we are actually still going to
continue.
I do not want to be diverted, hon House Chair.
[Interjections.] All what I want to say, I never delay ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon
members! You are drowning the speaker. We can’t hear what he’s
saying. Order!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: I
did not, House Chair, take long. The moment there was first

 
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time a qualified audit by the NSF I appointed a Ministerial
Task Team to say ‘What is wrong with the NSF such that it got
these problems?’
By the time the audit disclaimer came, already the Ministerial
Task Team process was underway and I have appointed a forensic
investigation on time; I have not wasted time in order to be
able to do that. Even before the next audit I had already
appointed this. And – as I have said – this forensic
investigation is going to be completed by the end of March.
Let’s focus on real issues and not be diverted by this
opportunistic posturing of the EFF. Thank you very much.
Question 126:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I didn’t hear that it was
my turn. I will deal with the question asked by hon Harvard.
Our vaccination programme is able to administer more than
250 000 vaccinations a day, actually up to 300 000 and more,
and is sustainable. We do have adequate stock to reach our
target of 70% and beyond of the adult population. At the
current moment, we are approaching 50% of at least one dose
for all adults. We still have more than 20 million doses of
both the Johnson and Johnson and Pfizer vaccine combined.

 
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The challenge we face is to attract more South Africans to
come forward to receive their jabs, so that they can all be
protected. This is very important. We understand that because
people feel that the fourth wave has not been very severe,
with fewer admissions and fewer deaths, some feel that they
are now safe. However, we know that all scientists and experts
are telling us that in another eight to 10 weeks we may be
experiencing a fifth wave as we get closer to winter. So, I
just want to alert South Africans that it’s not yet over.
As you will be aware, we are working with all our provinces
and also the private sector ... a number of private-sector
participants, pharmacies, other providers and also
nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, to make sure that our
facilities for vaccinations remain in place. We also have a
project management unit in the department which is focussing
on this. Just over two and a half weeks ago, with the
leadership of young people, we launched the KeReady programme,
which is run by young people, to attract more young people to
come forward to receive vaccinations.
As Minister Nzimande indicated earlier ... working very well
with higher health, especially with Deputy Minister Manamela.
We were together, also with my neighbour here, Minister Zulu,

 
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when we launched this youth programme two and a half weeks
ago. We are also doing a lot of outreaches to schools with
Basic Education. In some of the provinces there are agreements
between our district health ... and Basic Education to visit
schools and to provide vaccinations. Many businesses are also
providing facilities for vaccinations. We have reduced the
interval for boosters and we have also added the mix and
match, where, if you had the one dose Johnson and Johnson ...
or even with a booster, you can now have a Pfizer ... If you
had two Phizer ... you can have a Johnson and Johnson ... as a
booster.
So, we are all ready to make sure that we reduce the
restrictions and lift ... as the President will at some stage
announce the replacement of the state of disaster. These
facilities will remain ready so that South Africans can get
vaccinated and be protected. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Ms X HAVARD: Thank you, hon House Chair. What support is the
department providing for different socioeconomic sectors in
developing vaccination policies to increase the vaccination
roll-out?

 
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, our unit which is managing
the vaccination programme is very agile and very responsive.
At any time that we get requests for partnerships and
assistance, we are always there with the private sector, with
government departments, with public entities. At any time that
we get requests for co-operation and support, we are always
there. There is a wide range of experts out there that we
always rope in, in case there might be a particular matter
where we may need additional expertise. Just to give an
example. When there was an issue in Basic Education about the
opening of schools and improving vaccinations, we brought in
paediatric specialists to make sure that we could add even
more information in terms of safety in that sector. So, any
time any sector wants assistance, private or public, we always
make sure that we provide the necessary support. Thank you.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister,
according to a recent press statement by your office, only
29,3% of the 18 to 34 age group is fully vaccinated and
apparently another five million of this group will need to be
vaccinated in order to achieve 60% coverage. What specific
action has the government taken to target this age group,
considering their very low vaccination status?

 
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, hon Hlengwa. Hon
Chair, indeed that information is correct in terms of at least
one jab for young people of 18 to 34. We are at just under 30%
of full vaccination and in terms of at least one jab just
under 35%. So that’s the lowest in the age groups in the
country in terms of adults.
One of the major interventions is what I mentioned. Two and a
half weeks ago, with hon Manamela and my neighbour here, hon
Zulu, we launched this KeReady campaign. In fact, I shouldn’t
say we launched it because we supported. This is a programme
that is run by young people – young health professionals. They
are also recruiting other young people outside the health
profession and they have made it very clear that they want to
run the campaign. The messages must come from them. They have
a number of initiatives that we are supporting.
We are also working with them to encourage various industries
to provide relevant incentives. In this case, we want to
welcome the contribution by the network companies. At this
stage, Cell C and also MTN are providing data as part of the
incentives for young people. We are talking to the other
network providers to also provide data because data is

 
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important for young people who are looking for work, for
education, for various opportunities, for business and so on.
So these are some of the initiatives run by young people. Also
in the media, we are encouraging many media houses to
continue, and I must admit here that many media houses have
come to the party. With regard to radio and TV, you know, if
you listen to many of these stations, from time to time they
do broadcast messages encouraging vaccination. Also, my other
neighbour on the left, the Minister of Sport, Arts and
Culture, is working with us in promoting a return to sporting
activities and spectators by encouraging vaccinations. So,
these are all the interventions that we are involved in.
Ms A M SIWISA: Minister, what scientific information is the
government relying on that ... ending all COVID restrictions
will not further endanger our society from future variants of
this virus? Taking into consideration that there are some
companies that already have a mandate of vaccination, which is
a mandate for them, what implication will this have on the
vaccine mandates that some of these companies have already
adopted? Thank you, Chair.

 
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon member and hon Chair. I
think, just to add to what my colleague, Minister Nzimande
said earlier on, we want to balance on the one hand opening up
society, opening up social activities, opening up businesses
... at the same time encouraging people to vaccinate. So,
that’s why our approach is not going to be reckless in terms
of opening up. There will be no contradiction in terms of
those companies that, in protection of their own workforce,
have the right to develop policies. They have determined the
policies which say that in this institution the workers need
to be vaccinated or otherwise provide reasons why not. This
will hopefully ensure that more and more people get vaccinated
because if we are able to reach that 70% of coverage of all
adults and even of younger people between 12 and 17 who are
also eligible; if we can reach a bigger coverage, then even as
variants come – that’s the information determined from
research by various scientists – there will be fewer variants
because fewer people will transmit the virus even if they do
get infected. So we will even be able to open up more
activities and even drop some of the current protections
because then a larger portion of the population will be
protected.

 
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So this is not either or. We want to keep encouraging people
to vaccinate. Companies which have particular occupational
health and safety policies, amongst which they have included
vaccination ... we want to encourage that so that more people
can get vaccinated and then it helps us to open up more
activities in society.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon P V Staden?
Van Staden? Hon Staden? It’s written P V here. There’s no Van
Staden. If it is Van Staden then it’s the hon Van Staden. If
it’s not Van Staden then it’s hon P Staden. Do we have such a
member here? I will pass. The next question ...
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry Chair, can we take that follow-up
question if the hon member is not going to take it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The question of Mr
Van Staden?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Yes, if she is not going to take it, then
the DA would like to take the question. [Interjections.]
Chair, if the question is not utilised, it can be distributed
on a first come first served ... So, the DA would like to take
the question. [Interjections.]

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay. Is it a DA
member?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Yes, can we take it? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Should I ... Just
wait. Just wait. It’s not clear who Mr van Staden or Mr Staden
is. Is he FF Plus?
IsiZulu:
... kwenzenjani manje? Usuyi-FFPlus manje?
English:
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, if I may? If the hon member is not
going to take the question, it can be distributed to ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson,
please ...
Afrikaans:
... moet asseblief nie kanse vat nie.
English:

 
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The party is not here. You do not represent that party. Can we
go to Question 100?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry, Chair, on a point of order.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Oh, the hon member
from the FF Plus. Yes, hon member from the FF Plus, not you,
Mr Van Staden.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair, may I just say that hon Van Staden
has a problem with his signal but I’m not ready to do a
follow-up question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, thank you
very much.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry, Chair, on a point of order.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order!
[Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Hon
Macpherson, what’s your point of order, sir?

 
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Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, you will recall that before the
House ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members!
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, could you ask her to shut up if
she’s asking me to shut up? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Van Staden?
Okay, hon members.
IsiZulu:
Uma ngabe efuna ukubuza ehlezi, hlala. Qhubeka Macpherson
njalo.
English:
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, may I suggest that before COVID, if
there was no-one to ask a follow-up question, it was then at
the Chair’s discretion to reallocate the question to another
party that wanted to take it. So, I would ask for your
discretion in reallocating the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson,
thank you very much. Hon Macpherson, it is at the discretion

 
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of the Chair. Thank you very much. My discretion in this
particular regard is that we could not go ahead with that
question. Unfortunately, the member of the FF Plus stood up to
acknowledge that he is their member. Thank you very much. We
will deal with that later if we have a problem, but for now,
can we go to Question 100?
Mr S N SWART: Sorry, House Chair, may I rise? I understand
that Mr Van Staden is on the platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart?
Mr S N SWART: He is now on the platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Who?
Mr S N SWART: Mr Staden from the FF Plus. He just said he’s
there.
Mr P A VAN STADEN: I’m here, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But where is Mr Van
Staden?

 
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Mr S N SWART: He is there.
Mr P A VAN STADEN: Chair, I was thrown off but I’m back. My
signal was dropping.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay.
Afrikaans:
Dankie, Mnr Swart.
English:
Hon Staden? Is it hon Van Staden?
Mr P A VAN STADEN: It’s hon Van Staden, thank you,
Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much. Go ahead, sir.
Mr P A VAN STADEN: Hon Minister, with the President’s
announcement during the state of the nation address ...
[Interjections.]

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order please! The
hon Minister cannot hear what the other member is asking. He
has my indulgence. Hon Van Staden, again, go ahead.
Mr P A VAN STADEN: Hon Minister, with the President’s
announcement during the state of the nation address that
government must first amend the National Health Act before the
state of disaster can be lifted, can you indicate why should
the National Health Act be amended first? Does the government
plan to make vaccinations and vaccination passports compulsory
through this amendment? And, don’t you think that compulsory
vaccinations and vaccination passports will ... South Africans
... revolt? Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I think the hon Van Staden
must go and read the President’s speech of the state of the
nation address. He will not find any line there which says
that the Department of Health should amend the National Health
Act. What the President said was that the Department of Health
will provide regulations, using the National Health Act. So,
what we have been working on are regulations under the
National Health Act in terms of the management of infectious
and notifiable diseases to specifically respond to COVID. That
process is virtually concluded. We have already made

 
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presentations to the relevant structures in government and
that matter is being considered as we speak. Just to confirm
what Minister Nzimande said earlier on, the Deputy President
is consulting with some of the public structures in line with
those regulations, so that we can then migrate from disaster
management to a health managed pandemic.
In terms of what those will contain, hon Van Staden must just
be patient. The regulations will be made public. They will be
published for public comment and from there he and his party
will judge whether we are talking about mandatory vaccine
passports. He must just be patient. It will be in the public
in the next few days in the Government Gazette. When that
happens, he can comment together with his party. Thank you,
hon Chair.
Question 100:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon House Chair. This
relates to the question of what the Department of Home Affairs
has published in terms of the critical skills, and there has
been a concern from various stakeholders, and this is what the
hon member is relating to. Now, let me explain this, the
Department of Home Affairs has used specific kind of benchmark
in terms of determining which skills are actually critical

 
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skills. So, it’s not in relation to whether these skills may
be in short supply.
In some institutions that as a country, they look at whether
these are the skills which falls under the category, for
instance, of hard to fill. There are also lot of vacancies
which are not been able to be filled for at least six months
in that category, whether there is vacancy growth, in other
words, there is an increasing number of vacancies in that area
and whether there is vacancy pressure amongst others.
Now, the reality in the health sector is that, in the generic
professions of health, in most of these medical, nursing,
pharmacy, physio and so on, we are producing sufficient
numbers overall, in terms of being able to can fulfil the
public good, but the problem is the distribution. In many of
those skills, you will find out that they migrate into private
sector, also into urban areas and there is also a struggle in
the rural areas to attract some of those skills.
Also, in terms of that therefore, you find situations where,
because of budget stress, even where some of these
professionals like doctors are available, but some of the
areas where they get posts, there are not enough resources to

 
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attend the public. So, when they balance all these on the
various health professions, they find that, it’s not an
absolute shortage of many of these skills, it’s more of
distribution, financial resources and attracting those skills
into relevant places rather than absolute scarcity.
Historically, because of that situation, especially in rural
areas, I worked in a rural hospital where 80% of my medical
staff were foreign doctors. So, that is the situation that
exists. So, we are engaging with Home Affairs to address that
anomaly, but even though absolute, you may not have the
shortage of certain skills. Some of your most specialised
skills might be in adequate numbers, but to get them where
they should be, it’s a problem.
So, those are the challenges that we are addressing, and we
hope that with our engagement with the Department of Home
Affairs, we can be able to find an amicable solution, so that,
where we are able to attract foreign graduates, we should
still be able to do so, even though there might be 10 South
Africans actually who can be attracted in Nkambule, hon Chief
Whip, but it may be difficult to bring them back. So, those
are things which we wanted to discuss and see how we deal with
those anomalies. Thank you, hon Chair.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon Minister. Hon members, the time allocated for
questions ... [Interjections.] ... I have been advised to take
the question now and her follow-up, and thereafter, we will go
to the first order, and I will be welcoming Chair Boroto to
the front. Over to you, hon H Ismail.
Ms H ISMAIL: Thank you, Chair. Minister, let me remind you,
during the COVID-19 pandemic, hospitals had to postpone
elective surgeries, as healthcare workers fell ill at some of
existing shortages of critical care nurses in theatres and
intensive care unit, ICU. Now, South Africa currently has 1,1
nurses per 1000 people as compared to China, that has a 3,1
ratios per 1000 people, and the UK, that has 8,4 ratios per
1000 people. Further to this, Minister, South Africa currently
spends R83 million a year on Cuban doctors. Now, it’s a sad
reality that government values political connections over the
health and wellbeing of its own people. It is clear that, we
need medical practitioners ... [Interjections.] ...
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I held my hand up,
Chairperson.

 
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Ms H ISMAIL: ... but we cannot exclude these skills from the
critical skills list.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, hon
Ismail, can you hold for a minute. Hon members, I’ve got time
right in front of me.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: No, it’s not about time,
Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But members should
be given a chance to pose a question that they want. Hon Zulu,
what is the point of order?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it will be
helpful to assist because you know as Ministers as we sit
here, when members do not give us the question properly and
read it very fast, it’s difficult to answer the question. It
is just my request to the hon member not to go too fast, so
that we can hear the question.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon Minister, but for the sake of the smooth running of
this House and the decorum of the House, I would request that
members should not be disturbed when they are on the floor. If
the Minister did not hear the question properly, in his or her
response, he or she will indicate that. At times, members do
not pose questions, instead, they make statements, then it is
at the discretion of the Minister to respond to either that
statement or the question.
So, let’s allow members to pose questions. Members are also
requested to give Ministers a chance to respond. If they are
not happy with their responses, they know what route to
follow.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Thanks, Chair. The reason why the Minister
can’t hear, is because their own members behind make a noise
continuously.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Uyabheda ke wena.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: So, if you correctly have asked them to
allow the speaker to pose this question, then the Minister can

 
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hear. So, you can ask her own colleagues to thula [keep
quiet.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson, hon
Macpherson, hon Macpherson, please. Hon Ismail, I will give
you a chance again.
Ms H ISMAIL: Chair, do I have all my time?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You have your time,
hon member. Go ahead.
Ms H ISMAIL: Thank you. Minister, I hope you can hear me now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, just
give her a chance. Hon members, what we also need to consider
is that, we come from a large House where we could not hear
such big noise. So, we have to moderate our voices in order to
suit this environment which is rather too small, please. Over
to you, hon Ismail.
Ms H ISMAIL: Thank you, Chair. Minister, during the COVID-19
pandemic, hospitals had to postpone elective surgeries, as
healthcare workers fell ill at some of existing shortages of

 
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critical care nurses, most especially in theatres and
intensive care unit, ICU. Now, South Africa currently has 1,1
nurses per 1000 people, as compared to China, that has a 3,1
ratios per 1000 people, and the UK, that has 8,4 ratios per
1000 people. Further to this, Minister, South Africa currently
spends R83 million a year on Cuban doctors. It’s a sad reality
that government values political connections over the health
and wellbeing of its own people.
It is clear that, we need medical practitioners, but we cannot
exclude these skills from the critical skills list, while
importing selective groups with political connections, as we
have seen with the Cuban doctors. Now, instead of funding
countries like Cuba, these funds could have been more
adequately used to develop medical skills training centres
locally, thus increasing our critical skills input. So,
Minister, what are the reasons that Cubans get preferential
treatment over other international medical practitioners
because of the exclusion of the critical skills list? Is not
that because we have so many Cuban doctors ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order.
Order, hon members. Hon Ismail, we have rules to consider.

 
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Your question was supposed to be only a minute, and you have
gone well beyond that.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Chairperson. A follow-up question should be one
minute. You don’t make a statement ... [Interjections.] ...
no, sit down, I am on the floor.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Just hold on. Hon
Macpherson, if you behave this way, I’m going to request you
to leave the House. You are disrupting these proceedings. Hon
Macpherson, order please. Hon Macpherson, you were asking
questions while you were seated there. Now, I do not know what
is happening with you, you are on your feet now to continue
with the disruption of the House. I am asking you, please do
not do this, otherwise, I will request you to leave the House
if you go on with this, please. Over to you, hon Deputy Chief
Whip.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Chairperson. Hon House Chair, as I was saying, a
follow-up question should be one minute, and you don’t have to
ask more than one question. The hon member asked three
questions. The other thing, hon House Chairperson, the follow-

 
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up question should emanate from the original question, not a
new question. Thank you very much
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very
much, hon members.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Chairperson, I have my hand up.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order.
I will not allow you, hon Macpherson. Hon members, in response
to what the hon Deputy Chief Whip has raised, I would like to
read this to you. A member who asks for a supplementary
question, may make a statement or express an opinion, but the
time allowed for the first supplementary question is limited
to two minutes. The first and for subsequent ...
[Interjections.] ... hon members, I am not yet through. Hon
members, ...
IsiZulu:
... lalelani, lalelani, bakithi!
English:
... and the subsequent supplementary question is one minute.
So please, hon members, these are your rules. So, let us not

 
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make the work of the Chairperson so difficult, let us respect
our own rules. Also, the time allocated for questions has
expired, outstanding replies received will be printed.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, I am standing on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The Secretary ...
[Interjections.]
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, on a point of order, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson,
what’s your problem?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, the question has been posed to
the Minister, and the follow-up question was posed by the
member. The response has not been forthcoming, and the
supplementary follow-ups have not been answered. You have to
complete the entire sequence and stop the entire session ...
[Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson,
there are certain things that should happen before you become
the Chairperson. You cannot go on like this.

 
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Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Regarding what you
are looking for, the Minister is at liberty to give a written
reply. So, what is your problem?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members. Hon
Macpherson, could you please give the House a chance.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, can I please address you,
Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The Secretary will
read the order of the day as we call upon hon Maswanganyi who
will speak virtually.
CONSIDERATION OF 2022 FISCAL FRAMEWORK AND REVENUE PROPOSALS
AND OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE THEREON
Xitsonga:

 
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Ttn M J MASWANGANYI: Muhlonipheki Mutshamaxitulu, vachaviseki
va Huvo yo Endla Milawu ya Riphabuliki ra Afrika-Dzonga,
vaholobye ...
English:
... Minister of Finance Mr Enoch Godongwana tabled the 2022
Budget before Parliament on 23 February 2022, in terms of
section 27 of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and
section 7(1) of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and
Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009. The Minister together with
the director-general, DG, and senior officials of the Treasury
briefed the committee on Finance on 24 February 2022. The
committee received the post-Budget inputs from the
Parliamentary Budget Office and the Financial and Fiscal
Commission on 03 March 2022.
The Standing Committee On Finance acknowledges that the
consolidated revenue is expected to increase from
R1,7 trillion in 2021-22 to R1,77 trillion in 2022-203
reaching R1,98 trillion in 2024-25. Furthermore, the committee
acknowledges the R32 billion increase in the National Student
Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, funding for existing bursary
holders and new entrants into institutions of higher learning
as well as R24,6 billion allocated to hire teachers. The

 
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committee also acknowledges the R15 billion allocated to small
businesses for the loan guarantee allocation. We further also
acknowledge on the positive note the R90,00 increase on the
special grant.
The global and the domestic economic outlook and recovery has
improved since 2021 mid-term Budget. As a result, there has
been additional tax generated. The additional R61,7 billion
collected is above projections. The upward revision shows an
improvement in personal income tax, corporate income tax and
VAT. It was estimated that the global output would increase by
5,9% but it is expected to moderate to 4,4% in 2022.
Inflation is expected to continue rising in 2022. Price
pressures will average about 3,9% in advanced economies and
5,9% in emerging and developing economies.
It is unclear whether the 2022 Budget’s microeconomic and
fiscal policy assumptions took into account the conflict
between Russia and Ukraine. This conflict will affect the
global and the domestic economic outlook and pose significant
risk to the 2022 fiscal framework. In essence, the
microeconomic assumptions and considerations underpinning the
2022 fiscal framework will change in the current year. South
Africa, Zimbabwe and Russia are major global producers of

 
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platinum group metals, PGMs. Economic sanctions on Russia may
lead to increased demand for South Africa’s PGMs at a higher
price. However, there is a looming food price inflation with
Ukraine being a key agricultural producer amongst other
things, maize, wheat, soya beans and sunflower oil. The price
of these produce have gone up significantly. By last week
Friday, 04 March 2022, Brent Crude oil price was nearly US$115
per barrel, that is 17% higher than on 23 February this year,
the day before the conflict begun.
These adds up to the already mounting energy price inflation
pressures. Recently, we have witnessed the skyrocketing
increase of petrol prices. Energy and commodity prices shocks
will have an impact especially for poor households for whom
food and fuel are a higher proportion of expenses. The Russia-
Ukraine conflict might create complex policy trade-offs
further complicating the economic landscape as the country
recovers from the COVID-19 pandemic crisis.
This fiscal framework is presented against the backdrop of
shocks brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic. COVID-19 has led
to the contractions in the gross domestic product, GDP,
increased debt levels, higher unemployment and income losses,

 
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all of which have served to further entrench inequality and
poverty.
Another challenge was the July 2021 unrest which has placed
additional strain on government as public resources had to be
marshalled to extend the provision of income support as well
as to aid the recovery of businesses.
The gross fixed capital formation private sector declined by -
1,2% while public corporations fixed capital formations
increased by 9,5%. The unemployment recovery also continues to
be sluggish,
Chairperson, the official unemployment rate rose by 0,5% from
34,4% in the second quarter of 2021 to 34,9% in the third
quarter of 2021. According to the expanded definition of
unemployment, the rate increased by 2,2% to 46,6%. Narrowing
tax base due to rising unemployment may put pressure on public
spending, increase the Budget deficit and increase borrowing
requirements. High unemployment, inequality and global
financial volatility are destabilising constraint growth and
deter investment.

 
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A consolidate Budget deficit of 6,5% of GDP is projected for
2022-23 narrowing to 4,2% of GDP in 2024-25. The SA Reserve
Bank continue to tighten the monetary policy increasing the
repo rate by accumulative 50 basis points to 4% in January
2022. The debt servicing costs will increase to be higher than
R300 billon per year from 2022 to 2023 becoming of the fastest
growing expenditure or a spending item.
However, over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF,
period the learning culture will decrease by -1,1% and the
social development decreases by =2,5%. These Budget
adjustments disregard the effect on employment. A balance
between employment preservation and Budget cuts must be
maintained. By their own admission government is unlikely to
realise many of their National Development Plan, NDP, targets.
The committee held public hearings on 02 March 2022. The
committee received written and oral submissions from
stakeholders. Stakeholders raised a number of issues. Amongst
those is that they express concern about the SA Revenue
Service’s, Sars, conduct during VAT audits by withholding off
VAT refunds. To this effect, we recommended that Sars and the
stakeholders concerned should meet within three months to deal
with these issues.

 
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Stakeholders also raised the issue of planed or looming
retrenchment of almost 6 000 SA Post Office workers which they
believe can be stopped. Furthermore, they raise the issue of
the bailouts to the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, and
recommended also that the Road Accident Fund, RAF, should be
done away and be replaced by the road accident benefit scheme.
That Bill should be brought to Parliament. In return the
National Treasury and Sars responded on the issues raised by
stakeholders on 04 March 2022.
Regarding the committee observations, the committee welcomes
the 2022 Budget and acknowledges that it strikes a difficult
balance between growing the economy ensuring fiscal
sustainability, maintaining expenditure over the medium-term
and providing tax relieve to individuals and companies. The
committee appreciates the productive environment in which the
2022 Budget was discussed between the National Treasury, Sars
and civil society. The committee further welcomes the National
Treasury and Sars’ comprehensive response to the issues raised
by stakeholders.
On microeconomic issues the committee expected the real GDP
growth of 1,8% over the medium-term on average will not be
sufficient to reduce poverty, inequality and high rates of

 
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unemployment. Furthermore, the committee acknowledges some
progress made in addressing structural constraints growth. The
committee recommends that the National Treasury should report
progress made every quarter on structural reforms including
managing he electricity crisis that negatively affects
consumers and the small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs.
The committee recommends that for policy certainty, the
National Treasury should clearly articulate the government’s
economic policy on growth from which the economic recovery and
reconstruction was derived in the upcoming 2022 Medium-Term
Budget Speech, MTBS. As indicated in the previous report we
believe that reindustrialisation and localisation should
become key pillars of our national reconstruction and
inclusive economic recovery strategy.
On employment programmes, the committee recommends that the
National Treasury should regularly provide progress report in
this regard. There are many programmes that government had
come up with including the Presidential Youth Employment
Initiative. So we will expect from the side of the Treasury to
report progress on a regular basis. The committee further
notes that it will remain difficult for the labour market to
absorb new entrants particularly the youth and the unskilled

 
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with economic projected economic growth over the next three
years.
Given the phenomenon of high level of unemployment the
committee urges the government to seek to avoid job losses
spending in various entities and negotiate with trade unions,
management and other stakeholders in this regard within the
relevant regulatory framework and norms. The committee notes
the proposal to decrease the corporate income tax by 1% part
of which is the government’s intention to restructure the tax
system by reducing avoidance opportunities, expanding the tax
base and encouraging investment. However, we believe that the
committee is not convinced that a reduction in the corporate
income tax, CIT, necessarily will lead to investment of this
saving into the economy. Therefore, the committee recommends
that the Treasury should encourage the private sector to
reciprocate in return to stop holding the money and invest
their money in the economy
On expenditure related to debt issues, the committee observed
that gross loan debt is now expected to stabilise at
5,43 trillion or 75% of the GDP in 22024-25, a year earlier
than projected in the 2021 Budget. The debt level as a
percentage of GDP nonetheless remains high and the country

 
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might face a debt trap. The committee recommends that the
National Treasury report quarterly as we have reiterated
before. [Time expired.]
Mr M J MASWANGANYI: In conclusion, we also recommend that
government should ... [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Hon member, your time
has expired.
Mr M J MASWANGANYI: The committee recommends that government
should procure locally assembled cars that in itself ... [Time
expired.]
Xitsonga:
Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.
Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, House Chairperson, the fiscal
framework is the national budget for the next three years. It
estimates how much money government will receive in revenue,
how much it will spend and the difference between the two.
Since 2008, government has spent more than it has received and
the deficit has ballooned to R386 billion for next year.

 
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Interest repayments will be more than R1 trillion over the
next three years.
Many South African households know the burden of debt and how
difficult it can be to break the debt cycle without taking
decisive action to earn more, spend less or both. Unlike
struggling households battling to make ends meet as inflation
rises and the cost of living spirals upward, government has
the luxury of access to other people’s money in the form of
tax, and this has made them lazy.
Year after year, Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa,
hear how billions of rands paid by hardworking taxpayers have
been irregularly and wastefully spent and nobody gets held to
account. This is the culture of corruption that has taken the
grip around the throat of our public finances. Taxpayers won’t
pay tax when they know that their money is being wasted. Money
is already tight enough.
The tax base continues to shrink as skilled South Africans
head abroad to escape a debt trap created by a government
increasingly out of touch with the reality that South Africa
has run out of money and no amount of borrowing can fix what
the ANC has broken.

 
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The fiscal framework is a powerful reflection of the choices
that government has made. Government has not been able to lift
the revenue numbers; it has not earned more because our
economy is not growing. Yes, it is true that COVID-19 smacked
our economy really hard at a time when we could least afford
it, but we were already on our knees before the pandemic
reached our shores because government chose the wrong road for
our economy.
It chose to position an incompetent government as the primary
economic growth enabler. The vehicle for this growth was to be
the state-owned enterprises, SOEs. Year after year, while the
state-owned enterprises under delivered, yet overpaid the
cadres deployed to loot them. One Finance Minister after the
next, bailed them out to the tune of nearly R200 billion and
counting. The opportunity cost of this has been the economic
growth that we never had and the exponentially higher revenue
we never received, the jobs that never resulted, the poverty
cycle that never got broken, the house for the homeless that
never got built or the school to feed eager young minds or the
hospitals to heal the sick. Enormous damage was done.

 
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Instead, the public sector wage bill grew bigger and bigger,
bloated with millionaire managers while the frontline got
depleted.
The so-called broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE,
meant to redress past injustices just made a few people rich
and left everyone else behind.
It was refreshing to hear President Ramaphosa talk of the
business sector generating jobs that the government knows it
cannot deliver. It was also refreshing to hear the new Finance
Minister speak in the same direction. I hope, Minister, that
you would break the mould that your predecessors wouldn’t or
couldn’t.
The DA would not support this fiscal framework because it
would look much better if the Minister was going to do what he
and the President said they will do.
We need to attract capital into our economy for it to grow. As
our economy grow, gross domestic product, GDP, will rise and
revenue will increase. Investment will come from local and
foreign business from domestic savings. There was nothing in
the budget to enthuse business.

 
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A much stronger signal from government is needed. Reduction of
the bloated, unaffordable public sector wage bill, changes to
labour regulations to encourage employment, and an actual stop
to the SOEs bailouts, tax holidays and tax exemptions for
start-ups, removing tax barriers to saving and a cut in the
tax on fuel. All of these are possible but none of it happened
and that shows on the fiscal framework.
The silence on the new state-owned enterprise to oversee the
others must end. Hard-pressed taxpayers want to know if any of
their hard-earned money would be thrown into this madcap idea.
They know a swimming pool when they see one, no matter how
hard government argues that it is a fire pool.
Our energy crisis, with rolling blackouts again, today and the
looming water crisis will never be solved if there isn’t any
tangible action. The problem is credibility.
The ANC government spoke for itself when it abstained as the
UN voted against the Russian federation’s illegal invasion of
the Ukraine. In the likely event that this war drags on,
sanctions against Russia will impact on its allies as well and
the ANC has painted us firmly into that corner.

 
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As financial pressure piles up on Russia, its ANC government
friends who celebrated with cocktails while its tanks rolled
across the Ukrainian border, who put their own interests first
and drive our economy further into the red. Our economy knows
what pariah status can do and we are already on the financial
action task force watch list for not fighting money laundering
and terrorist financing strongly enough. Punitive action
aside, our economy will not grow if our major trading partners
are at war.
The Minister is unable to commit to a Basic Income Grant
because he is not confident that he can fund it. If GDP rises,
and revenue with it, and expenditure is better managed by
making the hard choices, then it is possible and support for
vulnerable, unemployed South Africans can increase as more
jobs are generated on a rising growth rate. That is the
pathway out of the current unemployment and poverty trap that
the ANC has walked us into, one misstep after the other.
We now face the real prospect of stagflation – low growth and
rising prices - and that is going hurt every South African
unless urgent action is taken to unlock the private sector and
reduce the fuel price. Do what you say you will do, Minister,

 
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and in October the picture can look a lot better. Thank you,
Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, House Chair, the EFF
rejects the proposed fiscal framework as introduced by the
Minister of Finance during the Budget Speech last week.
We know that after the budget, there were talk shops called
public hearings, which under balanced circumstances were
supposed to interrogate the budget and present superior
alternatives, otherwise, the neoliberal and right-wing budget
whose aim is to consolidate, deepen and strengthen the white
capitalist establishments on a supposition that such will in
the future trickle down to ordinary people.
We take note that for the first time since 1994, the biggest
expenditure item on the budget is debt service costs, meaning
that the state will spend R301 billion paying the interests of
the more than R4,7 trillion that the South African government
owes to domestic and global financial institutions, which
regrettably, include the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and
the World Bank.

 
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Many other countries in the African continent including
Ethiopia, Angola, Tanzania, Egypt, Kenya and many others are
borrowing money and entering into developmental partnerships
with financial institutions from different parts of the world.
What is markedly different about these loan partnerships is
that they result in significant and impactful infrastructure
development programmes and building of new industrial zones
which in turn create jobs and reduce poverty. On the contrary,
the South African government borrows billions of rands to pay
salaries and to pay the multinational corporations that are
frog-marching South Africa into an evidently unjust energy
transition.
The trillions of rands the South African government borrowed
from domestic and global capitalists bank are not adding any
significant value to the development of the productive forces,
they are not creating additional jobs and are not reducing
poverty. These trillions of rands borrowed by the South
African government come with conditions and are certainly an
instrument undermining South Africa’s policy, political and
strategic sovereignty. The most perfect illustration that
South Africa’s policies and sovereignty is undermined is
witnessed through the so-called structural reforms, which if
you read closely are not different from the structural

 
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adjustment programmes that seek to privatize South Africa’
state-owned assets. The SA Airways has already been privatized
to a consortium that is linked to the dominant white
capitalist establishments here in South Africa, and not to a
strategic equity partner who would have added the much-needed
value into the airline.
The mutilation of Eskom into three different divisions is a
direct privatization of energy generation which will evidently
soon lead to the privatization of both energy transmission and
distribution. Despite the ruling party’s resolution five years
ago to create a state-owned bank, which they said is a matter
of urgency, and the repeated commitment by the Ministry of
Finance in this Administration, a state-owned bank is not yet
created. The Minister of Finance said during the budget
briefing that he does not have a mandate from his own
President to create a state-owned bank.
Despite the ruling party’s resolution to discontinue the
private ownership of the SA Reserve Bank, SARB, the central
bank remains in private hands and is currently at the
forefront of irrationally and unlawfully destroying black-
owned insurance companies.

 
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The 2022 fiscal framework announced the reduction of corporate
income tax by 1% despite lack of any empirical lack of
evidence that such will lead to increased investment and job
creation. Since 2020, South Africa has lost more than two
million jobs and almost all these jobs were lost in the
private sector, yet this government still insists that jobs
must be created by the private sector. There is currently more
than 11 million people in South Africa who need jobs and
cannot find them, yet the budget does not say anything
concrete and believable to create jobs for the people of South
Africa.
The reality is that almost everything else that the National
Treasury does is not leading to stimulation of the economy,
not leading to the development of productive forces, not
leading to job creation, and not leading to poverty reduction.
There is continued refusal to accept that you can use fiscal
and procurement policies to drive industrial local expansion.
The National Treasury is not utilising that instrument much
more meaningfully.
We reiterate our demands as the EFF that we must stop all
forms of privatization. All forms of privatization of all
companies must stop, whether it is Denel and others. They can

 
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play a strategic role if they are given clear direction and
meaning. We still demand for the creation of state-owned bank
and the nucleus of that state-owned bank must be the African
Bank, which already has the infrastructure to roll out that
particular programme.
We call again that the Bill we have introduced as the EFF to
discontinue private ownership of the central bank must be
passed by this Parliament before the end of 2022 so that we
can join more than 90% of banks in the world that are owned by
central governments.
We demand that there must be a clear plan with regards to
industrial expansion, but also we should explore developmental
partnerships, not just burdening the South African fiscus with
loans from ... [Inaudible.] ... multinational banks and
domestic institutions without any meaningful contribution to
the South African economy. We reject the budget with contempt
and we know because it is not going to create anything. Thank
you very much.
Mr E M BUTHELEZI: House Chairperson, during the Minister’s
opening remarks of the 2022 Budget Speech, he stressed that
and I quote:

 
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The 2022 Budget was designed to strike the delicate
balance between growing the economy, fiscal
sustainability and supporting livelihoods.
The Minister further advised that economic growth will be
subdued and that over the medium term it will not be
sufficient to reduce poverty and inequality in South Africa.
Hon Chair, at the outset, the Minister told the country that
there has been no high level arrest and prosecution for those
who have stolen money from the state while/whether this was
from corruption related to COVID-19 or state capture.
When communities ask why there have no electricity while the
water has been cut for months, whether they can provide better
for their families through tax relief? The answer is simple;
the government has done nothing.
On taxes, the Minister instead of increasing excise duties on
products such as cigarettes which affects the day to day
running of our hospitals and place a heavy burden on our
primary health care facilities. When heart disease, cancer and
lung infection make up long ques at clinics, the Minister

 
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chose to increase the taxes on much healthier alternatives to
smoking cigarettes which is vaping.
It’s our view as the IFP that this needs to be reviewed as
imposing taxes to vaping would discourage the industry from
growing. The government should instead be increasing policing
and clamping down on illicit trade of cigarettes which is
killing companies that are operating legally within our
borders. I am certain that fewer teenagers would get hooked on
smoking if there were less and cheap illegal cigarettes
available.
While we welcome the increase in revenue allocation to local
government, we are of the view that this money is not enough.
When we say this, we mean that councils who serve the people
directly require the requisite revenue to do so. This calls
for an increase in funding. – it is not so that it may be
pocketed by officials and politicians, but it is meant for
delivery of services and building capacity within the state.
Furthermore, we must note government’s inability to retain
skills in local government. This sphere of government, as we
all know, has been around for 22-years now. How is it that
this sphere has been and is still neglected?

 
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One does not see the 22-year experience in this sphere of
government hence our municipalities are falling apart. Lastly,
our state-owned entities continue to fail us as a country.
Eskom has grown into a bottomless pit for state resources. The
amount of R88 billion to further bail-out Eskom is travesty.
Denel is a shadow of its former self and many other SOEs are
crippling our economy.
Hon Chairperson, it’s plain and simple, the government must do
better and it must change the course to focus on the needs of
our people. The IFP supports the report. Thank you so much.
Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, I don’t think that any
member in this House on any side of the aisle can disagree
that South Africa is in trouble. That this ship is sinking and
that we are in an unsustainable fiscal position. That we don’t
have enough money. That 40% of South Africans are hungry
currently. That 40% of South Africans are dependent on social
grants and that we don’t have enough money.
Whilst we spend 60% of the budget on social services there
will not be enough teachers to provide the necessary
education. There will not be enough doctors, there will not be

 
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enough clinics, there will not be enough social grants. That
is the unsustainable position that South Africa is in.
... [Interjections.] ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Nkosi uButhelezi! Baba
uButhelezi! Baba uButhelezi, ngicela ucime baba.
English:
Mute. You may not be aware that you did not mute and you are
now in another conversation. Please mute. Proceed, hon
Wessels.
Mr W W WESSELS: ... Thank you hon House Chair. Whilst the ANC
is blind to the reality the fiscal framework will remain
inadequate. Whilst there is no implementation of structural
economic reforms, the fiscal framework will be inadequate.
Chairperson, whilst members of the ANC regard big business as
the enemy we will not get out of this crisis. Whilst business
are regarded as being the holy cows that will be provide the
taxes regardless of what is being done and the services been
provided, we will not get out of this situation.

 
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Chairperson, the government should earn tax. The government
can’t just collect tax. Whilst the government only collects
tax and does not provide services in exchange, we cannot
expect businesses to have confidence in this government.
Whilst members of the ANC think that it is wrong for
businesses to build up reserves and save money, we have a
problem. We have a problem in the thinking whilst the ANC does
not understand the economy.
Chairperson, history will repeat itself, we will lose business
confidence if there is no real structural reforms, if there is
no actual addressing such as the energy crisis. Voltaire said
and I quote:
History never repeats itself. Man always does.
Stop with your failed policy directions. Stop giving Cubans
money whilst the people of South Africa are suffering and
unemployed. Whilst you do not have money you spend money
because of your historic loyalties and also because of the
fact that you don’t know what the reality is. Whilst 40% of
the people of South Africa are hungry, you give money to Cuba.
That the problem with this government. You keep on doing the
same thing.

 
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Businesses out there provide services. They even fix the
potholes which are the responsibility of this government
because you failed to provide adequate services and business
do it. Businesses provide and contribute to social relief
programmes whilst the government fails to do it. That is what
you should recognise. The role that big business can play in
this country and start acknowledging that. Start acknowledging
the reality and stop implementing failed policy. We need to
get this ship going again. We all have the potential to get
South Africa going. There are businesses that can create jobs
and get South Africa out of this situation. But then, you must
start playing your role and you must start doing your job.
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon
Shabalala, I’m giving you a warning, if you do that again you
will be out of this platform. You don’t just press the button
and speak. Are you proceeding to speak?
Ms J TSHABALALA: I’m sorry, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): But the warning is
given. Thank you for that.

 
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Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP believes that the Minister
did relatively well under very difficult circumstances to
strike a balance between growing the economy, ensuring fiscal
sustainability, and supporting livelihoods.
The Budget Speech was broadly supported by markets. And it is
clear that the Minister is attempting to stick to the much
needed fiscal consolidation path by allocating part of the
R182 billion tax windfall to debt reduction but also
addressing much needed social support in extending the COVID
19 Social Relief of Distress grant.
The question is to what degree would you be able to implement
these proposals? We, from the ACDP believe as many do that
what is much needed is much faster economic growth for job
creation and revenue increases.
The committee report refers to various organisations that made
presentations.PricewaterhouseCoopers, PWC, interestingly
enough states that Treasury’s tax revenue estimates for the
next two years are too conservative and that for this
financial year that we are in, the revenue could be R40
billion higher than projected. The ACDP welcomes this because
we need to reduce the high levels of government debt, which

 
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has reached almost R4,3 trillion and debt service costs of
R330 billion. But PWC as many others they premised their
projection upon their first 10-months of last year. And those
are the most recent tax figures that were available.
However, as we know the situation has changed dramatically,
globally with the Ukrainian invasion by Russia. We see that
the fiscal risks, - hon Minister maybe you can touch on this.
The fiscal risks identified in your budget risk as well as the
Budget Review look like they are going to materialise.
At the same time consumers are facing sharp increases in
consumer inflation driven by rapidly escalating food and fuel
costs. And this arising from disrupted global supply chains.
Electricity prices also set to rise and the markets are
pricing in the prospect of the Reserve Bank being forced to
accelerate interest rates hike. And this, of course, places
further pressure on many South African households who are
already struggling to make it on month to month.
It is against this background that the ACDP welcomes the fact
that not only it was Personal Income Tax and Value Added Tax,
VAT, not increased but tax brackets and rebates will be
adjusted to provide R5,2billion in tax relief.

 
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We would urge, hon Minister that you announce in your Budget
Review, a review of a petrol price. Please expedite this.
There is room to reduce the fuel price and the tax that is
raised in that regard. This can be balanced with the commodity
price windfall that is set to continue as a result of the
European, Russian and Ukranian crisis.
From that perspective, we ask you hon Minister to urgently
look at that aspect. Our house holds need some relief and that
can be done by reducing the fuel price. I thank you.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you House Chair
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyaziqhwabela izandla mhlekazi.
English:
South Africa’s economic growth rate used to be around what 4%
during the mid-2000s, now it is at around 1,9%. In fact, it
has been forecast to be at about 1,8% over the medium term.
The forecast rate of growth is not enough to ensure that we're
able to reduce unemployment, reduce inequality as well as
poverty in South Africa. Whilst plans in the past have been
put in place to try and industrialise the South African

 
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economy, not enough has been attended to or done to address
the challenges that are faced by those who are supposed to
benefit from the programme.
We welcome the government’s decision to use a portion of
revenue windfall to reduce the borrowing requirement as well
as our debt. However, we do not support the government’s
decision to reduce the corporate income tax rate. We want to
cite statistics in support of our argument. Between 2003 and
2012, the number of personal income taxpayers grew by 7%.
However, since 2012 some of these gains have been eroded with
a decline of 2% in the number of taxpayers according to SA
Revenue Service, Sars data.
The decline is very worrying, as you might admit. It is a
direct result of the weak economy and its failure to grow,
which has reduced the ability of firms to grow and increase
salaries. This most or in tandem with the increase in the high
unemployment rate or there is a direct correlation between
this and the increase in the unemployment rate. Even worrying
is that, in 2020 there were only approximately 5,2 million
individual taxpayers. This 5,2 million of individual taxpayers
represent about 10% of the population, and they contribute

 
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anything between 40 and 60% of the tax revenue for the
country.
In other words, over the past few years, a smaller proportion
of state taxpayers has become responsible for an increasingly
large proportion the total personal income tax rate. In other
words, the challenge is that the burden for tax in order for
us to increase revenue falls squarely on the shoulders of
personal income taxpayers, while there is no credible evidence
or ... [Inaudible] ...evidence to show that reductions in
corporate income tax rates in the past were able to get the
private sector to invest in the economy, to forget about the
investment strike, create jobs and do exactly what is expected
of them. In other words, we keep on rewarding the private
sector for its mediocrity and its failure to play its part
High income taxes as you know, economic growth theory is very
simple - high income taxes result in lower levels of
consumption and savings. These in turn translate into a lower
economic growth. I want to also make an example of the
question about Corporate Income Tax, CIT. Instead of having a
blanket reduction in the corporate income tax rate, we should
follow the examples of what is done in some parts of the world
such as Germany, where if companies for example, invest in

 
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rural economies, such as BMW that is based in Bavaria, which
is considered to be a rural province, they pay a lower income
tax rate in order to incentivise them ...[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please check your
monitor.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Seliphelile eli xesha? [Uwele-wele] Anifuni
sithethe. Ndizakuthula ke Mama uSihlalo weNdlu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I tried! I tried hon
Kwankwa. [Interjections.]
Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, yesterday Statistics SA released
the gross domestic product, GDP figures for 2021. Growth
topped out at 4,9% falling just below projections, but leaving
us about 2% below where we were in 2020 before the pandemic
struck. The July 2021 violence and insurrection robbed us of
achieving over 5% growth. Those who instigated it need to be
held accountable. We are yet to see consequences and
prosecutions.

 
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The select committee’s report laments that domestic savings
especially those that arise out of the reduction in the
corporate income tax rate, are not being reimbursed into the
economy to create jobs. It is important to remember that the
environment conducive to private sector investment in our
country, economy and jobs is a stable one, where law and order
is maintained and where there are consequences for the kind of
distraction that we saw last year.
The alarm bells in the GDP results of the sectors which have
not recovered, especially those that are labour intensive. The
report before us is consistent about inclusive and job
creating growth being our most pressing priority, but there is
something going horribly wrong for the construction sector.
The construction sector has seen a steady decline since 2016.
This is alarming for a number of reasons. The construction
sector and decline means public housing is not being built. It
means the private developer, residential, commercial buildings
is not investing and infrastructure has not been built. A
construction sector and decline means a labour intensive
sector is losing the jobs that we need, low skilled, semi-
skilled and skilled. The construction sector and decline is a
force multiplier of decline. For every job in the construction
side, seven jobs are lost in the supply chain.

 
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The public sector’s commitment to infrastructure led growth is
critical to preventing the total collapse or exit of the
sector, before we find that our infrastructure developments
can only be built by foreign players. We agree with the
standing committee that, the projected economic growth of 1,8%
over the medium term is not sufficient. We encourage our
government not to settle for this. We need at least 3% growth
to have an economy that is creating enough jobs to start to
see the impact on our unemployment numbers.
Finally, we support the report’s call a National Treasury to
plan for and implement a basic income. This morning I read an
article on basic income. It made a number of points about the
positive impacts of basic income, which has been implemented
or piloted in other parts of the world. I leave you House
Chair with this comment on the article:
Humans are the only species on earth who have to pay to
live here. Basic income is the recognition that if we’re
going to make everyone pay to live, we should provide
everyone with money to live.
Thank you House Chair.

 
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: [Inaudible] ... today 28 years later, we
still have a very unequal economy. The economy is still in the
hands of a few. When I say this let me give you an example:
One particular commodity which is supposed to have created
jobs in South Africa is in the sugar industry. But what did we
do? We made sugar imports from Eswatini, imports duty free.
Who owns this company? Business leaders in South Africa. Okay,
so they are making the profits through Eswatini. What is the
impact on local production? It has dropped, which means we are
losing more jobs. We are not creating jobs. We are losing
jobs.
We have such beautiful fertile land in South Africa to grow
wheat, but we are importing them from Russia and Ukraine. Now
the price will shoot up, the cost of living will increase. So,
are we actually creating jobs in South Africa to boost
economic growth? No, we’re not. Let’s look at Eskom, level
four from today. level six shortly. How you going to expect
businesses to thrive and succeed? So they can’t be economic
growth. Let’s talk about the state of the municipalities
alone. They can’t even provide you with water. How are you
going to get economic growth in the country? Now, we talk
about poverty alleviation in this country, but our policies do
not talk to reducing the levels of poverty in this country.

 
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The debt service cost alone is going to be equivalent to
R333 billion a year in the medium term, which is going to be
R1 trillion. Most of that money is not used towards economic
growth or infrastructure development. It is used for
consumption. How are we going to boost economic growth in
South Africa? If you look at the fuel cost rise now which is
expected to go to R40 per litre, I am told, what is it going
to do with the cost of living? Even the 90 or 100 an increase
we gave for social relief, is not going to help, we need to
put additional measures in place.
We speak about manufacturing industry and local industry. Yes,
indeed, that is where we can create our jobs, but yet we rely
on imports on almost every other product. Have we created a
conducive environment for manufacturers to thrive to be
successful? No, we have not. So it means we need to relook at
our policies, particularly with our imports and things ...
[Inaudible] ... the country. You have reduced your social
grants over the medium term by two and a half percent. The NFP
will support the report tabled here. Thank you very much.
Ms Z NKOMO: House Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy
Ministers, hon members, as we debate Budget 2022 it is
important to always be conscious of the historical

 
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significance of the moment we are living in. Our economy is
still emerging from the devastation of the COVID-19 global
pandemic. Today we are faced with the prospect of
unprecedented inflation owing to skyrocketing oil prices.
Yesterday we celebrated International Women’s Day. It is
important that the history of this special day ... especially
nowadays when the history of the world is being rewritten by
some countries’ media and some political parties in this
House. The 8th of March was first celebrated when women gained
suffrage after the 1917 socialist revolution in Soviet Russia
and subsequently celebrated as a public holiday in communist
countries. It was only decades later that it was adopted by
the feminist movement in the West.
While the economy and fiscal outlook of our country remains
bleak, there is a glimmer of hope and evidence of much-
stronger-than-expected revenue collection. The ANC supports
the government’s commitment to charting a course towards a
higher level of growth and fiscal sustainability. We also
support government’s efforts to ensure that our country does
not descend into debt prison as we know that perils of losing
sovereignty we have witnessed with many countries.

 
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We share government’s concern about the proportion of money
that has been spent on supporting some of the large ailing
SOEs. However, the ANC calls on government to develop a clear
policy guideline on its decision to support SOEs instead of
leaving this to the discretion of the Minister of Finance.
There is a need for consistent application of the policy
because the consequences of losing some of the critical SOEs,
such as the SA Post Office, could be dire for millions of
South Africans.
The government did not increase taxes on individuals and this
should restore consumer confidence and support economic
growth. Despite there being no substantial tax hike, there is
still room to improve the efficiency of collection. The
lowering of corporate income tax to 27% has been welcomed by
the business sector, with substantial subsidies and exemptions
afforded to various sectors in the economy. We believe that
there should be enough incentives for long-term investment and
growth. However, as the President said in his state of the
nation address last month, South Africa needs a national
social compact in which we, the social partners and government
commit to building our country together.

 
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As we ask this House to accept this Fiscal Framework and
Revenue Proposal, we call on the SA Revenue Service to focus
on collecting tax on noncompliant individuals and companies.
We congratulate Sars on their recent successful search-and-
seizure operation, particularly those targeting the illicit
economy.
As the elected representatives of the people, we have the
responsibility to ensure that the revenue collected through
taxes is used to uplift our people and transform our country
from the ravages of apartheid and colonialism. We note that
the recent improvement in revenue collection cannot be
attributed to economic growth. Rather, we are reaping the
rewards of the global commodity price.
However, the downside of this is that as a net energy
importing country, the record-breaking oil and gas prices are
likely to wipe away some of these modest gains. Government
must therefore ensure that it drives the negotiation at the
National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, on
the social compact to a successful conclusion. The social
compact must provide sufficient protection for the most
vulnerable members of our society. The ANC welcomes the

 
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extension of the COVID-19 social relief grant for the
distressed.
We want to ensure the civil society organisation who came and
made presentations to a joint committee of Parliament that the
ANC has listened to your submission and we have heard you. The
report of the Judicial Commission on State Capture makes for
sobering reading. The numerous loopholes in our procurement
system that make it possible for some corrupt state officials
and their private-sector partners must be closed immediately.
In this regard, we call upon the Minister of Finance to
expedite the introduction of the public procurement Bill,
which will be tabled before Parliament this year.
Hon members, we must work together to strengthen our oversight
mechanisms to ensure that we do not react after terrible
things have occurred in government departments and entities.
We must ensure that every rand and cent collected are used
only for the purpose for which they are allocated. The
oversight work of all committees must increasingly focus on
identifying the inefficient government programmes and quality
of expenditure. We must be unapologetic and speak out to the
executive and accounting officers in various government
departments in that the quality of spend of public funds

 
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directly impacts the tax morality of South Africans. We can no
longer accept the fact that a portion of our hardworking
citizens are consigned to second-grade infrastructure
provision and poor government services. If government, at all
levels, is able to guarantee the delivery and maintenance of
quality infrastructure and reliable public services, our
citizens and businesses would be happy and pay a little bit
more tax in order to raise the quality of life for all South
African compatriots who are in this together. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr S M JAFTA: Hon Chair, in a post-Budget interview, our
leadership described the 2022 Budget as both anti-poor and
incompetently constructed to be able to respond to the basic
conditions of our people. The leadership highlighted the
declining allocations to education, health and social
services, which are regrettably crowded out by our debt-to-GDP
ratio.
We also reflected in our meeting that our debt service costs,
which saw an allocation of R1 trillion over the Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework, or MTEF, is a recipe for social decay.
This is made worse by the fact that these costs are expected
to rise from R268,3 billion in 2021-22, to R301,8 billion in

 
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2022-23, reaching R363,5 billion which is 5% of our GDP in
2024-25. This means our resources do not reach the poorest of
the poor, but are streamlined to pay our debts. This
trajectory, if not managed, will inflame massive social unrest
in the country.
We are equally unmoved by government’s failure to tap into
corporate income tax. This neoliberal and market-
fundamentalist approach will not rescue our ailing economy
with its challenges of unemployment, inequality and poverty.
The state has to perform its vanguard role to advance a
people’s revolution. Our people are entitled to basic
services. They are entitled to access quality health care
services. They have a right to social welfare services. In
this regard, the state cannot sleep on the job when there are
pressing priorities worthy of its attention.
Hon Chair, our fiscal framework must project the lived
experiences of our people. It must project an environment
where policy certainty and investor confidence are not in
doubt. To achieve this, there must be a paradigm shift in
terms of policy coherence, structural reforms and ability to
punish acts of corruption.

 
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After all we have highlighted, hon Chair, we will support the
report. [Applause.]
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much hon House Chair. Hon
House Chair, R10 billion funds under question to be condoned
is a request by the water and sanitation department in its
report this week which was accepted.
[Inaudible.] must not willy-nilly just write off these
billions. It is so bad that there was also a call for
Ministers and Deputy Ministers since 2012 to be fired or face
consequential management for many more billions gone down the
drain. Water must go down the drain not billions of rands. The
previous Minister agrees with this a 110%
If Cuba did not help bring down apartheid, the hon Wessels
would not have been part of this August and hon House. Cuba
has done more for South Africa than hon Wessels’ constituency
did when they governed.
Hon House Chair, we are very concerned that the zero based
budgeting has not been used by the fiscal framework despite of
the fact that the previous Minister of Finance gave such an
undertaking and that there was support from the current

 
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Director General for this. So, there is 30% of fact in all the
line items in our budget. We’ve heard that because of the war
between Ukraine and Russia that this budget may not be
relevant.
So Al Jama-Ah would like to call for an earlier review of the
budget because we know that this budget is built on parameters
that we did not take into account because of the war.
We can’t have a budget that is flawed and the Chairman of the
portfolio committee starts of by saying please support this
budget but this budget has been affected dramatically by the
war.
Hon Chair, lastly rural villages have been ignored in the
budget. It cannot be that 10 000 villages in South Africa
still live in the stone age. We need to do something special
about it. Thank you very much.
Mr A N SARUPEN: Thank you very much Madam House Chair. The ANC
Chief Whip is not my friend to. I don’t what I did to her. Oh,
there we go, she loves me, we’re back to normal thank you very
much.

 
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms G M Boroto): Hon Sarupen, I will
always protect you from the Chief Whip.
Mr A N SARUPEN: I appreciate your protection very much hon
House Chair.
I want to start my speech today by doing what I thought the
governing party’s MPs would do but failed to do so. And that
is to thank every South African household and business for
despite the lockdowns and enduring the irrational regulations
and some terrible economic policies from the government in
general, doing their best to start their businesses or keep
their businesses afloat to get South African goods to new
markets and because of their efforts, let me repeat this,
because of the efforts of the South African citizens and
businesses and not the government a revenue overruns more
taxes than the government anticipated of a R180 billion was
possible and we owe the South African people a great deal of
gratitude for this. This made the fiscal framework possible.
But there’s somewhere we heard in the debates today, it’s
clear that some governing party members need a reminder that
government has no money. It generates money from its citizens.
It is the activities and work of the citizens that determines

 
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the success of the economy and government can either
facilitate that or hinder that.
What I heard from some of the ANC members today, condemning
businesses in particular shows that this government is
determined to hinder the people of South Africa as they try
raise their living standards.
The other thing that hinders the economy is the massive amount
of government debt, R4,3 trillion at the moment which is
nearly 70% of our GDP, gross domestic product. This deficit
has ballooned to R386 billion in this financial year. That’s
the difference between what the government will get in and
what it’ll have to borrow, R386 billion and interest cost are
going up. We are now spending more on interest more than we do
on education. I’ll put it another way, we spend more on
interest than we do on peace and security and public works
combined.
By this government’s own assessment, the biggest risk to
digging South Africa out if it’s economic hole which is being
dug by the ANC over the last decade is from this
administration itself and the first risk is unfunded
programmes.

 
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I was alarmed to learn that the eight ANC run provinces in the
last financial have overspent by some R20 million. It’s only
the Western cape that has remained within their budget and
that shows what big risk is these unfunded programmes.
The second risk is higher borrowing costs and the Russian
invasion of Ukraine that some members of the ANC proudly
supports guarantees there will be higher borrowing costs for
emerging markets.
The third risk is of course the debt of state owned
enterprises. I was also alarmed in the last two weeks that
South African Airways has already spent half a billion more
than budgeted, mainly the bailouts.
The Post Office has asked for R22 billion and the taxpayer is
doomed to carry the burden of these bailouts. So what we see
in this fiscal framework is that the good intentions of some
in the state and even some in the governing party isn’t enough
to get South Africa working again when you’ve got a
compromised Cabinet and those who mean well cannot go into the
Cabinet meetings and say, no you can’t to the colleagues who
insist on bankrupting the country.

 
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So, to quote the Chinese ambassador, let me repeat this. To
probe the Chinese ambassador from 2019, South Africa needs
more than [Inaudible.] articulation of ambitions, it needs
concrete tangible plans. It needs to protect investment and
property rights and it needs to put a lid on corruption. That
was the Chinese ambassador who said this not some neoliberal
capitalists.
So, until the state can demonstrate a commitment to and the
implementation of concrete plans for protection of the
investment, property rights and putting lid of corruption, the
DA cannot support the report tabled before this House. I thank
you.
Setswana:
Rre I K MOROLONG: A ke go leboge Motlotlegi Modulasetulo.
English:
Mr I K MOROLONG: From the very outset, the ANC wishes to
remind all in this debate, that the February state of the
nation address, provides the strategic framework and direction
in which we debate the Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals.

 
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The test for the ANC is whether the Fiscal Framework and
Revenue Proposals, speak to the poor and vulnerable, advance
ANC and government policy, bring about required reforms in the
economy for growth, is redistributive, provides for a
comprehensive social wage and promotes inclusive growth.
The Fiscal Framework and Revenue proposals, address the social
wage making it 59% of total noninterest spending. The impact
of this is that it directly addresses poverty and unemployment
and provides individuals with choices to engage in the
economy. These are the poor and vulnerable for whom the social
wage is the difference between destitution and the ability to
make choices about their lives.
On advancing ANC and government policy, the structure of these
proposals and the budget, are designed to support economic
recovery and development, a matter that the ANC has been
seized with since 2018. One of the key indicators of whether
the proposals address policy mandate, is to look at the budget
against the Medium-Term Strategic Framework. One of the key
output indicators of the MTSF is the correlation between
proposals that address the immediate needs of low income
households by providing short term assistance and how the

 
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proposals finance the Medium-Term Policy Priorities of
government.
If we examine the evidence of Budget 2022, it points out to
the reality that it addresses Medium-Term Fiscal Policy focus
through the allocation of the social wage, supports youth
employment, supports the creation of short term jobs, provides
additional allocation in higher education for National Student
Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, creates the ability for teacher
retention in basic education, supports a health budget for
hiring of new staff, continues to respond to COVID-19 in all
its forms. All of which reflect that the budget speaks to
Medium-Term Fiscal Policies. Proposals focus on fiscal
sustainability, economic recovery and reconstruction. Spending
on learning and culture, social development and health
continue to dominate Budget 2022.
House Chair, these are the facts and evidence we provide to
this debate not slogans and rhetoric that take us nowhere.
Given the appalling levels of unemployment and poverty, the
special COVID Social Relief of Distress Grant is extended for
12 months until March 2023. The policy priorities of the
budget are to be found in its attempts to achieve a level of
sustained economic growth through infrastructure investment

 
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over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, accelerated
implementation of structural reforms and support for small
businesses. In this regard, the additional R15 billion
allocation to support Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises,
SMMEs, is a positive development.
For the ANC, the budget responds to the state of the nation
address in its targeted allocations to economic development,
social development, health, peace and security. Essentially
for the ANC, is whether the Fiscal Framework and Revenue
Proposals support redistribution of wealth, the social wage
and inclusive growth.
For this to happen, economic recovery and reconstruction has
to be inclusive. The economic growth path must be built on
increasing the wellbeing and buying power of the poor who are
the majority and defined in terms of race, class and gender.
This will enhance the ability of millions of unemployed South
Africans to effectively contribute to the economic future of
the country. This is fundamental and should inform
redistributive plans going forward. This in turn will
stimulate the demand side of the economy and provide the
critical economic growth that is needed.

 
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Budget 2022 assists in this regard by ensuring that the
general fuel levy is not increased and a R5,2 billion tax
relief for individuals and businesses has been provided for,
aimed at supporting economic recovery.
Hon members, our economic reconstruction and recovery plan and
in particular the sector master Plans, have got to be well
aligned to the composition of economic expenditure as the
Fiscal and Finance Commission has pointed out. This is a
function of Parliament, and going forward the ANC will push in
Parliament, that we move towards an outcome and impact
assessment model of oversight, qualitatively different to how
we currently conducting oversight. This will address the
quality of expenditure which in general terms is not good and
result in far better expenditure against policy intention.
In particular, localisation through industrialisation, and
industrial policy support, acts as a strategy for building
capacity and capability in the manufacturing sector as well as
in the agricultural sector where food security is a crucial
driver for job creation.
As the committee noted the expected real gross domestic
product, gdp growth of 1,8% over the medium term, on average,

 
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will not be sufficient to reduce poverty, inequality and high
rates of unemployment. This means that the
infrastructure-build programme, re-industrialisation and
localisation must be the key pillars of our national
reconstruction and inclusive economic recovery strategy,
supported by the buy local campaign for the state, private
sector and consumers.
Our concerns remain with the South African Reserve Bank
tightening monetary policy especially since we are moving into
extremely uncertain times. At such a time, the loosening of
monetary policy will far better serve the country interests.
Further we remain unconvinced that a reduction in corporate
income tax necessarily leads to the investment of this saving
into the economy. This is not borne out by evidence. Rather,
there are sufficient domestic savings that have not been
re-invested into the economy to create jobs and our
discussions must continue to be focused on this.
In conclusion the proposals are positive and take the country
forward. We need to ensure that the financed commitments
receive the dedicated oversight required in order to ensure
that our people benefit from the budget and that their quality

 
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of lives are fundamentally changed. We vehemently support this
report.
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, House Chair, hon members
and Cabinet colleagues, when we tabled the budget we
highlighted amongst others reduced global economic growth
projections owing in part to elevated inflation, withdrawal of
the USA fiscal support package and the consequences of
volatility in China’s troubled real estate sector.
On the domestic outlook we projected real economic growth of
4,8% in 2021 and 2,1% in 2022. We said we expect real economic
growth to moderate at 1,7% in 2024. On the revenue side we
reflected on the better than expected revenue collection,
mainly from elevated commodity prices. We indicated that
although the revenue gains are expected to dissipate in the
short term, some of the improved revenue collection is
expected to continue over the medium term period.
Hon members, since then there has been significant global
developments that will have an impact on our economy, notable,

 
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the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The conflicts carry
with it significant risk for a well economy that is yet to
fully recover from the shock of the COVID-19 pandemic. The
longer the conflict lasts, as well as imposition of further
sanctions could lead towards bad global inflations, higher
interest rate and ... [Inaudible.] ... global economic
recovery.
On the positive side, we expect that the rally in export
commodities applies, starting from supply concerns brought
about by the conflict. We provide added support for the local
mining sector and possible wing fall to revenue collection.
However, the rising oil price, the potential weakening of the
rand against the us dollar and supply constraints around wheat
and other agricultural products, pose outside risk to food and
headline inflation.
Yesterday, Statistics SA released Gross Domestic Product, GDP,
numbers for the fourth quarter of 2021. Our economy grew by
1,2% after shrinking by 1,7% in the third quarter of 2021.
This is a common percentage lower than Treasury estimations in
the budget. Overall, South Africa’s economy grew by 4,9% last
year, compared to the COVID-19 driven construction of 6,4% in
2020. This represent a slightly better growth than estimated

 
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by National Treasury. Although, from a lower base, there are
improvements in the number of sectors, namely agriculture,
manufacturing service and transport. Of concerns, our declines
in mining production, construction, electricity, government
and financial services.
Hon Chairperson, we must act with speed to accelerate the pace
of inclusive economic growth and job creation. I must make a
point that in tabling the budget, although we had a focus of
1,8, we made a point that 1,8% is not a satisfactory number
from our side. We are presenting a number where we are saying
that if anything remains the same, the economy will grow by
1,8%. However, structural reforms are intended to change that
... [Inaudible.] ... that is why we are making a commitment to
do structural reforms.
We must therefore trap all our micro and macro-economic
policies and interventions. It is all through sustained
economic growth that South Africa will be able to
significantly reduce unemployment, poverty and inequality. As
outlined in the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan and
emphasised in the state in the nation address, as well as in
the budget speech, we must act urgently to deepen social

 
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combat and broaden consensus around the needs to be done to
pull our economy out of its worse state.
In this regard, work has begun to finalise the series of
social combats with various ... [Inaudible.] ... partners.
Efforts to grow our economy will not only depend on micro
economic interventions. We must continue with our reform
agenda, particularly in the network industry of energy,
telecommunication, rail, ports, water and sanitation, as well
as goods and tourism attracting rare skills in our economy.
We are encouraged that the spectrum auction began yesterday
and will be completed by the end of this month. This will
support lowering the cost of data, improve broadband coverage,
including in rural areas, increase broadband speed and the
rollout of 5G. Equally, we also need to get the basics’
rights. This entails reducing regulatory constraints providing
effective services as well as co-ordinating and sequencing
economic interventions.
Our citizens in provinces has an important role to play in
creating and ... [Inaudible.] ... environment for investment.
In the City of Tshwane for example, we are at the risk of
losing a potential multibillion rand as investment by Ford, in

 
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an electric vehicle plant. Ford has already invested R16
billion on Tshwane Automotive Special Economic Zone, where it
is producing its Ford range model. This is the largest foreign
direct investment project our country has seen in the recent
times and has already created around 8 000 jobs.
Ford intends to invest further in bringing its electric
vehicle production in South Africa, worth about 10 billion
other investments. This, however, has been put at risk because
the City of Tshwane has been unable and perhaps unwilling to
secure electricity the new plant needs. The Tshwane example
reminds us that a deficit of political will at municipal level
makes it massively harder than it should be to create
conditions for jobs reach growth.
As part of addressing this public sector wage Bill, a public
sector labour summit is scheduled to take place at the end of
this month. This summit is an important opportunity for
stakeholders to engage honestly and transparently, and chart a
path towards a more sustainable public service and
remunerations guidelines. Much has been said and made about
the 750 million us dollar loan that we took from the World
Bank. Let me repeat what we said before, the World Bank loan
has no conditions attached. It does not in any way threaten

 
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the sovereign of our country. We considered all forms of
consensual and non-consensual fund necessary to address the
shortfall between how revenue ... [Inaudible.] ... We then
chose an affordable option available to us. This is part of
our debt reduction strategy.
I invite the hon Shivambu to read a publication. It says: How
China Lends: A Rare Look into 100 Debt Contracts with Foreign
Governments. That is ... [Inaudible.] ... an important point
that China itself does not provide loans without any
conditions. Quoting an important read for the hon Shivambu. I
am giving that as homework to him.
In the state of the nation address the President announced the
extensions of the social relief distress grants to March 2023.
The President further indicated that in this period, a
detailed technical work in the engagements will take place to
identify the best option to replace the grant. In this regard,
work is underway to resume the grant system. We ...
[Inaudible.] ... developing an optimal support mechanism for
grant recipient. The risk review will also inform our approach
for debate and discourse about a comprehensive social security
for South Africa.

 
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The key elements of which are social assistance and social
insurance. In this regard, we want to make sure that all the
social insurance debates are co-ordinated in one way. Whether
it is National Health insurance, NHI, whether is the review of
Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, whether is the review of
Road Accident Fund, all of those constituents as social
insurance. I mentioned those three. So, three of these
elements I am saying, of which is social security, social
assistance, social insurance, active labour market policies.
These three components are part of what we want to call a
comprehensive social security.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Mhlonishwa uGodongwana,
ngiyaxolisa isikhathi siphelile.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEZIMALI: Ngiyabonga.
Debate concluded.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be
adopted.

 
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Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom
Fighters and the Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 19:37

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