Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 02 Mar 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)
The House met at 15:02.
House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
WELCOMING OF NEW MEMBER
(Announcement)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr T T Mboweni has been filled by the nomination of Ms M L Pietersen with effect from 24 February 2022. The member has made and subscribed the oath in the Deputy Speaker’s Office. I want to welcome you, hon member. You may stand so that they can see you. Thank you very much.
PROTOCOLS ON WEARING OF MASKS
(Announcement)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, a reminder that the protocols have not changed. Let us keep ourselves safe. I don’t want to see myself asking people to put their masks on. I can because of the distance I have, with my Table’s assistance. Please, let’s keep on doing that until we are advised otherwise.
The first item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 1 – Peace and Security. Just to remind you that there are four supplementary questions to each question. Parties have given an indication as to which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose.
This was done to facilitate the participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
Members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, among others, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed
to the next question on the Question Paper.
Hon members, the first question has been asked by the hon D L Moela to the Minister of International Relations and Co-Operation. The hon Minister? Hon Deputy Minister, I have been informed that you will be taking care of the questions for International Relations. Thank you very much. You may proceed.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
CLUSTER 1 - PEACE AND SECURITY
Question 13:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response is as follows. The work undertaken by respective missions globally is an extension of our domestic priorities. As you will recall, at the centre of the Sixth administration’s economic agenda is driving inward and outward investment opportunities to accelerate economic growth and create a conducive environment for job opportunities critical to addressing the triple challenges which the COVID-19 outbreak has exacerbated.
The missions’ operations are aligned to the Sixth administration’s objectives. Therefore, in practice they implement economic diplomacy programmes within their annual performance plan that seeks to promote South Africa as a preferred investment and tourism destination. We have to this
effect, through the Directorate Trade and Investment
Promotion, established a system to oversee and co-ordinate
economic diplomacy activities to identify tangible investment
leads and information management with the missions and
external stakeholders.
In addition, we have observed that initiatives undertaken by
the missions to support the investment conference since
inception, are bearing fruit, and ... with growing interest
and participation by foreign investors. I thank you, Chair.
Mr D L MOELA: House Chair, thank you very much for the
opportunity and thank you, hon Deputy Minister, Candith
Mashego-Dlamini for the response provided to the House and to
the nation. Just a follow up question, hon Deputy Minister.
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South Africa will be hosting another investment conference
this year, as you have alluded to. Are there any specific
activities that will be undertaken by our missions abroad to
encourage investors to consider South Africa as an investment
destination of choice as part of the build-up programme
towards this investment conference that we are talking about?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, for the
coming investment conference that we will be hosting here in
South Africa, all our missions are mobilising investors from
the different countries of their deployment. We always use
other ... [Inaudible.] ... or open days or whatever just to
promote the opportunities that are available in South Africa.
So, all our missions are busy trying their best to make sure
that they create interest among our international investors to
attend the conference and to invest in South Africa, as they
did in all other conferences that have taken place. Thank you
very much, Chair.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, we know that our tourism industry,
as one of our mainstream incomes for South Africa, was hurt
tremendously by COVID in the last two years. Once the bans
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were lifted, the DA City of Cape Town and Cape Town Tourism
initiatives focussed on key source cities like Munich, London
and New York, with strategic marketing campaigns to attract
international visitors. The result showed a super 58% recovery
in overseas tourism in the Western Cape during the December-
January period.
Now, what will your department do differently through our
embassies to ensure that tourism to South Africa through the
economic diplomacy programme increases, as we have seen little
progress to date? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, there are
many activities that are going on in our missions as it stands
and I know there are serious exhibitions that are happening,
especially in our missions abroad, to exhibit the tourism
sites that are here in South Africa. So, those are the other
issues that they are doing now. I hope that tourists will come
to South Africa, more so ... most of our people here in South
Africa have been vaccinated. Others are still left to have the
booster ... However, I still say to the members that we really
need to make sure that everybody gets vaccinated so that we
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don’t scare our tourists as they come to South Africa. Thank
you very much, Chair.
Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chair, the economic diplomacy
programme should bring in foreign direct investment more than
ever before. Even though South Africa’s taxpayers are under
huge financial pressure as a result of high unemployment in
our country, they are nevertheless still required to fund
diplomatic missions to over 100 countries.
My question, Deputy Minister, is whether all the diplomatic
missions that we have abroad have successful economic
diplomacy programmes that have resulted in bringing foreign
direct investments that have grown our economy, and if not,
what value for money does our country get from diplomatic
missions that are just spending money with no tangible returns
in the form of much-needed jobs? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, to the hon
member, all our missions, and our ambassadors and high
commissioners, have signed a performance agreement and
economic growth is part of their performance agreement. And as
such, all of them have a responsibility to make sure that they
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put the means in place to ensure that they interact with
businesspeople in the countries of their deployment, and
ensure that people become interested in coming to South
Africa. So, we hope that as we assess our officials,
especially the high commissioners and ambassadors, we will
also be assessing them in line with what they have signed as
part of their performance agreement ... economic recovery.
Thank you very much, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The last
follow up question on Question 13 will be from the hon
Kwankwa. The hon Kwankwa? Okay, is he not on the platform? We
proceed. Thank you. The hon Kwankwa is not on the platform. We
proceed to Question 41, asked by the hon Whitfield to the
Minister of Police. The hon Minister?
Question 41:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon members, hon Whitfield,
the estimates of national expenditure 2022 provides for
additional funding for the recruitment of entry-level
constables over the medium-term period.
A total of 12 000 entry-level constable posts ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Hon Minister, I’m
sorry to disturb you. I think the mic is too low and you are
having the file above it. The sound is not so good.
[Interjections.]
[Laughter.] I don’t know what to do ...
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Uyangizwa manje. Ngiyezwakala yini
manje?
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Yes. The file was
obscuring the sound there. Okay!
IsiZulu:
Mnu T M LANGA: Insangu, insangu le.
English:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: A total of 12 000 entry-level
constable posts have been provided for; of which 7 000 entry-
level constables will be appointed in the 2022-23 financial
year and the other 5 000 in the 2023-24 financial year.
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In addition, 3 000 posts were advertised in the 2021-22
financial year and these members will undergo training in the
2022-23 financial year.
Therefore, a total of 10 000 recruits will be trained in 2022;
that is 10 000 plus 5 000. Thanks.
Mr A G WHITFIELD: House Chairperson, in 2012 the SA Police
Service, SAPS, employed 200 000 personnel. This was to a
police to citizen ratio of 1 to 254; 10 years later, this
year, SAPS employs 175 000 personnel with a police to citizen
ratio of 1 to 330.
According to the police’s own restructuring plan, personnel
will continue to decline to 163 000 by 2024; this is the
police’s official restructuring plan. This will put the police
to citizen ratio close to 1 to 400.
We know that these personnel cuts are going to hit visible
policing the hardest; which is good news for criminals and bad
news for community safety.
We welcome the President’s announcement of an additional
12 000 officers and the increase in the budget of
R8,7 billion. But this is still less than 10% of the total
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budget and according to SAPS’ own calculations will still
result in a net loss of personnel by 2024.
Will the Minister guarantee to this House that not a single
cent of the R8,7 billion increase to the SAPS budget be spent
on the top ... senior management including the golden
handshake payment to the National Police Commissioner?
And will he commit to streamlining the SAPS’ fixed
establishment to reduce the number of highly-paid brigadiers
and generals in favour of more frontline policing? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the answer will be
yes. But I hear what the hon member says. Indeed, in 2012
there were 195 500 police; which gives a round figure of
200 000. At the present moment they are notaring 75 per
177 000, which is 2 000 extra than what you said.
Chairperson, it’s true that there are several things that have
caused the numbers declining: natural, people dying, leaving
the organization and less recruitment.
I think that has changed now. The President has changed that
through the Minister of Finance, that these figures are
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coming; which will improve visibility, will improve the ratio
policing, but also, will improve the special units.
As you know, hon Whitfield, that most of the special units
need young blood: your Public Order Policing, POP, your
special task force, your National Intelligence Unit, NIU, your
Tactical Response Team, TRT, your Counter Assault Team, CAT,
they need young blood, to such an extent that most of these
figures you see here will be absorbed on those special units
with a hope that we will be able to get some figures going
forward.
Indeed, people have ... organization has gone down but we
believe that under the present dispensation that will be
corrected. It might take a little bit of time but we are in
the process of correcting that. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms N P PEACOCK: House Chair, to the Minister: How will the
increase of the recruit be able to assist in addressing
recommendation raised by the High-Level Panel Report on
capacity as well as public order police?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, [Inaudible] there have been
quite several recommendations on these matters; one of those
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recommendations is the Farlam recommendation. But also on the
high expert recommendations made by the team of professor
Sindi Africa: they have suggested visibility, they have
suggested the question of feeding those units but specially
the unit spoke about is the same unit Farlam spoke about which
is the POP.
But also to increase the young blood at the station level and
the better training on those that are at the station.
Chairperson, on the recruitment that is happening now we are
recruiting 200 Bsc students to be part of the police so that
they go to the laboratories, they deal with the forensics,
science and all that; so, specifically, we are recruiting that
group of people.
But we are also recruiting accountants so that they can go on
the specialized units like your Directorate for Priority Crime
Investigation, DPCI, and then we are not just moving only as
it has been recommended, but not just moving only on the
quantity but we are also dealing with the quality of the
organization. Thanks.
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Mr H A SHEMBENI: Minister, the problem of policing crime in
this country rests much on the lack of leadership by those in
leadership positions at the SAPS.
The management of the SAPS is highly bloated, with about 200
generals and over 600 brigadiers, and together, their salaries
are over a billion rand per year.
In order to build a good number of police boots on the ground,
why have you not considered trimming the fat at the top in
order to employ more police who will do the actual policing on
the ground? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, well, indeed, the same question
was asked initially by hon Whitfield. We are working on
flattening of the structure. We agree, the structure is too
much high going forward, there are too many [Laughter.]
starting from lieutenant-colonel and colonels, brigadiers,
major-generals, generals and all that. We agree, and it’s a
big money that is going there.
What is happening on the present restructuring is that there
is an amalgamation of the divisions there so that you find
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fewer generals, fewer deputy-generals and fewer divisional-
commissioners.
By the way, generals are director-generals and divisional-
commissioners are deputy director-generals.
So, we are taking on board what you are saying. All this money
that is put there, we are working hard that it must go on the
ground to train the new constables, but also improve on the
skills of those that are there and little money, if it should
be, worth the top. We are very much aware; we are working on
it. Thanks.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Minister, first of all allow me to
congratulate the men and women in blue for a very successful
week, particularly it was [Inaudible.] and then Delmas and
then, of course, arresting the kingpin and the high jacking
and kidnapping.
Minister, your predecessor agreed in Parliament that in order
to [Inaudible.] those with passion and commitment in the
police force, you need to include it in the curriculum at
basic education level. Are you speaking to your counterpart in
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the Department of Basic Education to include, maybe, policing
in the curriculum?
Very important and the reason why I say this, Minister, is
this, you are now going to have 12 000, by the time you train
them and they gain experience, you’ve lost a couple of years.
And very importantly, I want you to understand, Minister, is
that many of them, that are skilled, have left the police
force as a result of the retirement age coming to effect at
55; secondly, because they are unhappy in terms of the
promotion ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Question! Your time
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: ... thirdly, private sector is attracting
them with better salaries and benefits.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, Chairperson, we haven’t spoken
to the basic education but we have spoken to the higher
education.
In Hammanskraal we are establishing, under the leadership of
the Deputy Minister, a university college where we will be in
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collaboration with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI,
the people from London-Scotland Yard to train our people
there. Even yesterday there was a meeting of taking that
forward.
Deputy Minister has gone to those places. He has been in the
FBI headquarters, China, Russia; he was about to go to
Scotland Yard when covid came. So, we are working on that.
But besides, on the new blood that is there, medium and lower,
we have agreed with the management, but with the President to
say we need to get a group of people that we’ll take them to
these institutions, spend some time there at those
institutions to be able to get the [Inaudible.] higher
learning and requirement so that we bring them back here and
they are able to understand this policing at international
level. That is being done, hon member.
Question 65:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, my apologies that I could not come to the House,
I am a bit fluish. It is in the interest of the members that I
respond from here.
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Hon members, as members of the executive we meet with His
Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, on a regular basis to
discuss various matters of our portfolios. The process began
on 16 September 2021 when His Excellency, President Cyril
Ramaphosa called on South Africans to nominate suitable
qualified candidates for the position of the head of the
judiciary of South Africa which was the first of its kind in
our country and in many jurisdictions in the world.
This invitation was intended to promote transparency and
enable public participation in the appointment of the Chief
Justice. The submission process closed on 1 October 2021. In
response to the call for public participation, the public made
148 submissions which consisted of 25 names. Some of these
individuals featured in more than one submission. Of the 25
names, only eight nominations met the criteria as set out in
the call by the President.
The criteria referred to above stipulated the following. A
nomination letter including the contact details of the
nominator, the nominee’s acceptance of the nomination and
their contact details, letter of support for the nomination
and contact details of person or entity that supports the
nomination including at least one letter of support from a
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professional body of legal practitioners, non political
organisations working in the field of human rights or other
legal fields, and additional documentation that the person
nominating the candidate for the Chief Justice deems relevant.
The nomination panel was chaired by judge Navi Pillay. It
assessed and scrutinised all submissions. With regards to
suitability, President Ramaphosa has publicly explained that
the Judicial Service Commissions, JSC, advices the President
on the suitability of the candidates. This explanation is in
line with section 174(3) of the Constitution which reads:
The President as head of the national executive, after
consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the
leaders of parties represented in the National Assembly,
appoints the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice
and, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission,
appoints the President and Deputy President of the
Supreme Court of Appeal.
Thank you.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Just put
your hot water with lemon next to you. We have Mama Yako to
ask the supplementary question.
Mrs Y N YAKO: House Chair, to Mr Lamola, the concerns that
many have about the attempt at judicial capture should concern
you as a Minister of Justice. The rest of the population needs
to have confidence that decisions relating to the
administration of justice are beyond reproach. In light of the
interviews for the Chief Justice and the recommendation made
to the President by the JSC, has the President informed you of
when is he going to make an appointment for the position of
the chief justice, and why he thinks that you, as a JSC,
overstepped your mark in recommending Judge Mandisa Maya as
Chief Justice? As a Minister responsible for justice are you
not concerned that we have not had a Chief Justice for over
four months? Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Before I
allow the Minister to respond, just as a reminder of our
Rules. Rule 137.2 state exactly that you cannot ask more than
one question. So, please, let us take care of that because if
they respond to one, they are correct. So, let’s please stick
to our Rules. The hon the Minister?
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, that assertion of the judicial capture is unfounded. As
I have said, for the first time in the history of our country
the President, on his own discretion, opened up the process
for the sake of transparency and for the sake of public
participation where he allowed South Africans from all walks
of life to participate in the appointment of the Chief
Justice. There cannot be more transparency than that. The
whole process is in the public eye and political parties are
participating by making their inputs.
So, that assertion is not only far fetched but unscrupulous,
unfounded and it has all the hallmarks of conspiracy because
what the president has done, as I have said, is in line with
section 174(3) of the Constitution. This publicly explained
view that the Judicial Services Commission advises the
President on the suitability of the candidates is in line with
section 174(3) of the Constitution which I again read for the
benefit of the member.
The President as head of the national executive, after
consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the
leaders of parties represented in the National Assembly,
appoints the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice
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and, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission,
appoints the President and Deputy President of the
Supreme Court of Appeal.
So, the President has opened up the process and allowed the
public to participate, including hon members in this House
whom their majority have made their views and comments on the
matter. On behalf of the President, I want to thank all
political parties who have submitted their views and I think
those views will enable the President to make a decision to
appoint the Chief Justice. As things stand, the current Acting
Chief Justice is holding the fort, the judiciary is
functioning and there is no crisis. Thank you very much, hon
House Chairperson.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: House Chair, to the Minister, can you assist
in speaking to the nation so that we avoid lousy conspiracies
and just outline in simple terms and very briefly the process
that gets followed in appointing a Chief Justice so that we
don’t get into all oof these conspiracies that are being
spread around.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, I hope you
will be able to do that in two minutes, as I remind you. The
hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, in the past there was a process to appoint the
Chief Justice where the President nominated only one person.
When the outgoing Chief Justice was appointed, when the former
Chief Justice Ngcobo and also when the former Chief Justice
Pius Langa was appointed only one member from the judiciary
was appointed.
What the current President has done is unprecedented — it is
the hallmark of transparency which will be appreciated by all
democratic loving South Africans because it gave a platform
for the people of this country to have a say in terms of who
must become the Chief Justice. It also killed all kinds of
conspiracies, and all kinds of matters that may want to assume
or to cast aspersion on the person of the President who gave
and shared his constitutional power, as I have said, in terms
of section 174(3). He shared this power with all South
Africans and all Members of this Parliament by giving them a
platform and an opportunity to make an input. Therefore,
whoever is going to be appointed at the end of this whole
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process by the President is an outcome of a process that all
South Africans will have participated in. I do believe that we
will all welcome that process and that outcome because it will
be a product of a democratic process by all South Africans.
Thank you very much.
Mr W HORN: House Chair, to the Minister, it is of course so
that the manner in which the JSC has dealt with the last two
rounds of interviews has created the ground for all sorts of
conspiracies. Would you agree as the representative of the
executive on the JSC that the time is now right for the JSC to
adopt for a code of conduct for its members which should
include the rules of engagement with members amongst
themselves and with candidates?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, yes, I do agree that there could be a need to tweak
some of the codes of conduct. We already have a protocol that
is there within the JSC, the Constitution also stipulates the
type of fit and proper people that must be appointed. The JSC
in rules itself does stipulate but there is nothing wrong for
the JSC itself to engage on what it believes may be necessary
to tweak some of the codes of conduct to continue to protect
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the decorum, the standing and the dignity of the process.
Thank you.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, to the Minister,
given the imperative need for leadership and stability in our
judicial services, it is crucial that the appointment of Chief
Justice be completed as expeditiously as possible. Having said
that, judicial independence is just as critical. My question
is how will your department, which controls the budget
allocation of the Office of the Chief Justice, ensure that the
allocation of budget is not used as a command and control
allocation which could be seen to interfere with the
independence of the judiciary? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much. Indeed, we continuously follow all the Treasury
fiscal policies to ensure that all the budget allocations to
all departments under the Department of Justice are followed
through the prescripts of the National Treasury, and that
includes the Office of the Chief Justice, so that their
allocation and the baseline is informed by the needs and the
current fiscal environment. There is a continuous engagement
between the National Treasury and the Office of the Chief
Justice, represented by the accounting officer, to ensure that
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the needs are catered for and where fiscal framework allows
the increase it does happen as you would have heard from the
Minister of Finance.
The current fiscal environment affects all the national
departments and not only the judiciary. The National Treasury
continues to bend their hands backwards to help the needs of
the judiciary and also all the entities under the Department
of Justice so that the wheels of justice can continue to turn.
There will never be a space for any pulling of strings to
hamstrung or to obstruct the work of the judiciary because
that will be unconstitutional. Our Constitution is very clear
and all the prescripts are to the effect that such a thing
cannot be allowed to happen in our democratic country. Thank
you.
Question 20:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you House Chair, the plan
for the acquisition of 10 000 young people, who are coming to
digitise our record will be as follows, firstly, we need to
acquire them and we are hoping that we are acquiring the
10 000 young people each ... [Inaudible.] ...month. Wherein we
will place adverts in social media platforms, radio, notices
at all tuition centres, labour centres, national development
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agency platform and print media. And we will continue with the
shortlisting where we will boost the PB text like credit
rating, citizenship, criminal checks, etc., etc.
The 10 000 young people, will be appointed to all provinces,
depending on the weight of the work, as determine by the
number of records. These records which I have mentioned, which
I said they start in 1895, they are all the provinces of South
Africa. So the young people won’t be in one province, they
will be in all the provinces.
And lastly and important House Chairperson, this is not
internship programme, I heard many people saying the
Department of Home Affairs will provide internship, no, these
are unemployed people, some of them are they have forfeited
internship long ago. But, we are giving them a contract and
apart from digitising, they are going to be given
entrepreneurial skills, coding, robotics, digital
transformation, financial management, business project
management and the strategies for future on how to write some
curriculum vitae, CV, etc.
Now, the second part of the question is how budget is
projected the cost. When we did our ... [Inaudible.] ...we put
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two scenarios. The first scenario is in the ... [Inaudible.]
... to say four months, in which case it will cost
R2,2 billion. On the other hand, if it takes ... [Inaudible.]
... yes that’s three years, 36 months. It will then costs
R3,2 billion. Thank you very much.
Ms T I LEKGWASE: Thank you House Chair, hon Minister, given
the high unemployment rate and deepening inequality, how will
the department ensure that young people, women and people
living with disability in rural areas and those without access
of internet will be considered during this recruitment drive?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In the project plan, hon ...
[Inaudible.] ... we specifically set 60% ... [Inaudible.] ...
will be immediate and will be insist people... [Inaudible.]
... and secondly as I’ve already said, we will make sure that
we meet our youth all of them, that’s why I said it will be in
every province. There will walk ins. Those who just walk in
say I am here, there will adverts at ... [Inaudible.] ...
centres, labour centres, national development agency and we
hope ... [Inaudible.] ... Members of Parliament will also help
with their contribution to this, but nobody will be left
behind. Thank you.
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Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: Thank you House Chairperson. Thank you
very much hon Minister. Hon Minister, we welcome of course the
creation of these 10 000 jobs, for our young people as it is
disparately needed. But, we’ve got some practical concerns.
First and foremost, you spoke about citizenship, but can you
ensure us that these positions will be reserved or that South
Africans will be prioritised for these opportunities? And your
department, hon Minister already struggle with corruption
within in its ranks. Considering that these new employees will
be handling sensitive data and information. What steps will be
in place to ensure that this project doesn’t lead to data
breaches, loss of confidential information or even corruption.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member, there is
a question which I am going to answer, asking the same thing,
but maybe I can just do it now. Number one, this is money from
the fiscus ... [Inaudible.] ... important, it has to ...
[Inaudible.] ... because of the nature of the work that is
going to be done. So, that’s why I am mentioning as one of the
... [Inaudible.] ... in the plan. And, when we submitted to
Treasury, requesting, we actually mentioned that.
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On the issue of corruption, hon member, we are going to call a
press conference to outline, so that people understand step by
step what’s going to be done. And, we believe from the plan
which we will actually explain exactly in that press
conference. You will judge for yourself whether there will be
any corruption or not. We are not starting from the scratch.
The Department of Basic Education, hired 360 000 assistant
educators, there were no problems, there was no corruption
because of the method they’ve used. And, we are going to use
the similar method ... [Inaudible.] ... thank you.
Ms L F TITO: Kea leboga [thank you] House Chair, Minister in
November 2016 the then Home Affairs Minister, Malusi Gigaba
and the then statistician General, Pali Lehohla announced a
collaboration for the digitalisation for the records at the
Home Affairs. This is exactly the same project that the
President has announced in Sona. Why did the digitisation
project between the Home Affairs Statistics South Africa not
yield any results? And what could be different this time?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, digitisation
by Stats South Africa is ongoing, hon ... [Inaudible.] ... is
still ongoing. But, the problem is this. The records we are
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talking about are ... [Inaudible.] ... and they stretched from
1895. Now using an ordinary budget which is what we were doing
to give to Stats South Africa. They were ... [Inaudible.] ...
per annum. If you calculate, it will take us 60 years, 60
years or more because 60 years will be for ... [Inaudible.]
... but the records we are seeing here - these are records of
birth, death, marriage, identity document, ID, passport
stretching back in 1895 ... [Inaudible.] ... that project
won’t finish the job. We want the specific project,
specifically funded and we got this opportunity. Thank you
very much.
Mr W M THRING: Thank you House Chair, Minister, the Department
of Home Affairs has become characterised by long ques, many
hours that one has to spend queuing or waiting for services
inside buildings. Some of the times also the unfriendly and
unhelpful staff manning some of the offices. Now Minister will
the recruitment of these 10 000 young people for the
digitisation of paper records help to improve this challenges
that many South Africans face, as well as improve the image of
department? If yes, how, if not, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, remember the
Department of Home Affairs came to the portfolio committee to
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outline the plan about the problem we are facing. This issue
of long queues and all that. We outlined the business and the
plan. But this digitalisation is ... [Inaudible.] ... part of
the long ques is caused by people who come ... [Inaudible.]
... many times. Because there’s no way you serving them once.
Let me give an example, let’s say you are looking for an
abridged certificate or you are looking for a marriage or some
parent or death parent, who got married 80 years ago and
you’ve got to go and check from the records. Now, you’ve got
300 million records per ... [Inaudible.] ... papers, manual,
you’ve got to go through them to check that. It takes days,
but after digitisation, anybody wo enters Home Affairs and
says I am looking for this record, will be there on the
fingerprints and they don’t have to come to Home Affairs
again. And so, they won’t contribute to the long ques. So,
this is how this project is going to contribute. You might
have heard people who are ... [Inaudible.] ... and saying I’ve
applied for this and that three months ago or six months ago,
even a year and I am not getting the answer, is because our
problems ... [Inaudible.] ... through document which
stretching from millennia and they are searching for them
manually. So, we are very excited that this programme, will
bring all the information you want on your fingertips. Thank
you.
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Question 11:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response
is as follows. South Africa is continuing to encourage all
parties through quite diplomacy within all relevant
international mechanisms such as the United Nations, UN,
including Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa,
Brics, countries to strengthen all diplomatic efforts to avoid
an escalation of tension and work towards an inclusive,
sustainable and peaceful solution based on co-operation and
dialogue.
In this regard, South Africa encourages all parties to
approach dialogue with a spirit of compromise in order to move
the process forward without accusing any party – something
that would not be helpful in the efforts of resolving the
conflict. South Africa stands by its principled position of
peaceful resolution of conflict. South Africa reiterates the
obligation of all the parties to fully implement all their
respective commitment other than meets agreement which
provides the most promising roadmap for the peaceful
settlement of current hostilities including in Eastern
Ukraine, and to advance the course of peace and stability in
the broader region.
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South Africa cannot be said to be taking sides on the conflict
as this goes against its principles. In addition, South Africa
has good bilateral relations with both countries. It would
therefore be unwise to take a different position that could
compromise these bilateral relations ... [Interjections.] ...
Regarding South Africa’s position in Brics, it has been and is
continuing to encourage all the parties to strengthen all the
diplomatic efforts to avoid an escalation of tensions and work
towards an inclusive sustainable and peaceful solution based
on co-operation and dialogue.
In this regard, South Africa encourages all parties to
approach dialogue with a spirit of compromise as I have
indicated. South Africa stands by its principled position of
peaceful resolution of conflict. Similarly, in paragraph 22 of
Brics’ New Delhi Declaration issued on 9 September 2021, the
Brics leaders expressed concern at the continuing conflict and
violence in different parts of the world. The Brics leaders
reaffirmed their commitments to the principle of non-
interference in the internal affairs of states and reiterated
that all conflicts must be resolved by peaceful means and true
political and diplomatic efforts in line with international
law, in particular, the UN Charter.
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The Brics leaders also underscored the inadmissibility of the
threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of any state or in any other manner
inconsistence with the purpose and principles of the United
Nations. I thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Before I
proceed, let me remind all our members on the virtual platform
that the respect you can give to this hybrid sitting is by
ensuring that you look at your gadget and mute immediately.
Please, we request you to do that, because anything you say or
do is reflecting on the screens here and it is disturbing. All
members on virtual platform, please check your gadgets and
mute yourselves. Thank you. The hon Hlengwa?
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.
Well, I think the horse has already bolted on a lot of things
that the Deputy Minister has indicated and tensions have gone
beyond de-escalation because Ukraine has been invaded by
Russia as we speak right now, and the countries are at war.
Therefore, the question then becomes, “Does the Department of
International Relations and Co-operation still stands by the
statement that it issued last week?” Because judging by the
response now there is an element of backtracking, particularly
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in a very direct call to Russia to desist from aggression and
the invasion and to pull out its troops and military out of
Ukraine in order to create a conducive and enabling
environment for the discussions that the Deputy Minister
speaks about.
Secondly, the impact of the sanctions on Russia are most
likely now to have a direct impact of South Africa through the
Brics partnership. We therefore want to know what contingency
plans are in place to insulate the South African economy, but
also being proactive in dealing with the sanctions. Will South
Africa join the international community in meting out
sanctions against Russia? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Immediately you say
secondly, you should know that you are against Rule 137(2).
You understand what I am saying. Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much hon
House Chairperson. I have indicated what will be our position
as South Africa. Well, it only depends on the interpretation
of the member and there is nothing that he can quote we have
now changed the position. There is no change of any position
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here, Chair, because we are continuing as a country, also
calling for a peaceful resolution on conflicts. That is our
position and to do that we also request all the parties to go
on dialogue. So, that is our position, Chair. Thank you.
Mr B S NKOSI: Hon Deputy Minister, given that the situation
has escalated, and in line with our policy of peaceful
engagements for the resolution of conflicts, what are the
specific engagements between South Africa, Ukraine and Russia
to resolve this conflict peacefully?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much,
Chairperson. I just want to remind the hon member that there
was a special session on Ukraine in the UN General Assembly,
and South Africa has presented a paper in that and its
position. And we still stand by what we said in the special
session and we hope that the two parties will really be in
line with the UN Charter and also be in line with the
resolution of the special session on Ukraine. Thank you.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair. We obviously welcome
the Deputy Minister’s call for de-escalation and peace. But
our membership with Brics places us in a special position or
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relationship with Russia. And with the commitment of Brics
which are articulated as being a respect for sovereignty,
unity, independence and territorial integrity, nonaggression
and equality. We also know that our membership of Brics is
intended to place our economy in a place where we participate
in global economic co-operation and benefit from trade and
investment. Can the Deputy Minister advise us how our
government proposes to use our membership of Brics and its
commitment to this universal principle to ensure that our much
needed economic growth and job creation project is not
undermined. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chair. I just want to remind the member that as members of
Brics we are also affiliated in the United Nations. So, in
terms of this particular situation as it stands now, it needed
to be resolved within the United Nations. We have called upon
the Security Council to use all the means they have in their
disposal to make sure that they quell the situation between
Russia and Ukraine. So, there is no plan for the separate
Brics because we are all members of the United Nations in this
particular matter as it stands.
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IsiZulu:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ningenaphi nina.
English:
I am being abused here, House Chair. Can you protect me.
because you know ...
IsiZulu:
... ngizovele ngithi amasela.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Kwankwa, you have
one minute.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, but you must protect me, House Chair.
The issue here is that ... Minister, can you please stop
sitting on the fence? [Interjections.] The issue here is
clear. From where we are sitting, there are global calls for
president Vladimir Putin and member of his cabinet to be
charged with war crimes. What is SA’s position with respect to
that one? China, as a Brics member for an example, has
expanded trade with Russia. They have lifted restrictions on
wheat imports.
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Are we going to do the same things since we are Brics members?
What are we going to do as a country? We need a firm and clear
position on this matter so that we know exactly where South
Africa stands on this issue. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chair. I just want to indicate that as South Africa we stress
that peace is best built through diplomacy and dialogue within
the framework of the institutions of global dialogue,
especially the United Nations. It is important for all nations
to respect and uphold the principle of international law,
including international humanitarian law and the provision of
the UN Charter. That is how I stand. So, there is nothing that
can make you say that we are standing on the fence here.
We are members of the United Nations and we have presented our
position there and we have been supported by many countries in
that. So, whoever has called for whatever, we are not going by
what other countries are saying, but we are going by what
South Africa feels will be a better solution in this
particular conflict. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Question 7:
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
In terms of section 139 of the Firearms Control Act 60, 2000,
an amnesty may be declared by the Minister of Police if the
amnesty may result in the reduction of a number of illegally
possessed firearms and it is in the public interest to do so.
The firearm amnesty is therefore a prerogative of the Minister
when it is necessary.
Secondly, section 24 together with section 28 of the Firearms
Control Act does not provide for an expired licence to be
removed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is it hon Groenewald or
is it you, hon Wessels? Because, I can see your mic is still
on and we can see you. Hon Groenewald, it’s now your
opportunity.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Can I proceed?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Your member, hon Wessels
was disturbing us. He must mute his gadget. Please proceed, Dr
Groenewald.
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Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you Chair. Hon Minister, we have
great respect for you. You only read from the piece of
legislation. I know that. But the question was whether you
will consider coming to Parliament and request for a further
amnesty?
Last year, you gave an undertaking to say yes, you will do so.
Admitting that the COVID-19 situation hampered quite a lot of
people to apply for amnesty.
My follow up question is this. Will you, in considering such
an amnesty allow again that people who must renew their
firearm licences have an opportunity to do so? And, in the
light of all the theft of firearms at the police stations to
allow them to keep their firearms with them in a safe place.
Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.
There must be reasons for declaring the amnesty as the member
says. It could have been folly of me to say they will never be
an amnesty again. Indeed, there are few things to be
considered. Does it yield the wanted results of the reduction
... [Inaudible.] ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m sorry, hon
Minister. Can you just hold it? You only spoke for 30 seconds,
I will restore your minutes.
Hon Mbatha, please, this is the second time and you are not
even listening to us. You are busy with your own radio or your
own television, TV. That’s what we hear. If you proceed, we
will remove you from the platform. Hon Minister, I am sorry
for that.
Ms S GWARUBE: Excuse me, House Chair, we are getting reports
from our members on the virtual platform that they are
battling to hear the Ministers when they are using the roving
mic. Can information technology, IT, look into it and then
perhaps for now, can they speak into this mic?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): They can’t hear with a
loud mic like that?
Ms S GWARUBE: They are battling to hear on the virtual
platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It makes a lot of
noise. Oh! I will allow the Ministers to speak while sitting
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down because this thing is shorter? Hon Minister, I give you
permission to respond while seated. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Qala phansi, Mphathiswa.
English:
Can you please reset because we have disturbed him already?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... Thank you very much hon
Chairperson, I hope I am audible now. As we have said, the
issue of amnesty raised by hon Groenewald is a legislated
issue. He correctly said that I did speak with him. Indeed, I
said, there will be time where there will be amnesty again.
But we need to weight those thing. We need to weight if the
amnesty is going to yield the desired results? That is the
reduction of firearms. That is the first one.
Secondly, the logistics of getting these firearms. The
Firearms Registry will have to work on them, the ballistic
will have to work on them. Because as these firearms are
brought back we need to take them through the ballistics to
check if they were not used to committing crime, and they have
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not killed anyone. We do not just take them and put them in SP
13 and in any form of store room.
Thirdly, he is asking if there can be a renewal of expired
licence. The law does not allow that. The law says you will
have to reapply for the firearm rather than renewal.
Unfortunately, we have put quite several of these amnesties.
Those people that have expired firearm licences do not come
forward. So, we will urge those that represented the people
that have firearms including those firearms associations and
organisations to encourage their members, if and when the
amnesty comes to use that space to reapply for the issuing of
licences and not to renewal. Thank you.
Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSSON: Thank you very much hon, House
Chair. Minister, the licencing process and the amnesty process
exist in order to achieve lawful position as you have said.
What would the plan B of the Minister and SA Police, SAPS, in
dealing with the unlicensed firearms in this interim period
while we are waiting for what happens in your decision if
there is a possible new amnesty, so illegal firearms in the
country is kept under control? Thank you very much.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, unfortunately, police
officers are not lawmakers but they are law enforcers. There
is a law and even those that own firearms know the law. That
once your licence expires then your firearm becomes illegal.
And then if you have illegal firearm we will arrest you.
So, we are urging the firearm owners in South Africa to follow
the process and renew your firearms licences while there is
still time. Even if your licence delays but if you have the
receipt in your hand you will be regarded as the legal firearm
owner until you get your licence. But if you stay home and say
you did have a licence and it expired then you don’t have one.
We will then confiscate those guns and also arrest you. So, it
is important that the members and South African citizens
follow the law. Thank you very much.
Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you very much, it has emerged as a
fact that the consecutive amnesties have exposed the Central
Firearm’s Registry as chaotic, unreliable and dysfunctional.
The processing of firearm licence applications, competency
applications and amnesty applications is simple taking far too
long to provide the administrative justice that firearm owners
deserve.
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In terms of the age analysis of firearm related applications,
a 130 000 applications are outstanding for more than 120days
and 76 800 of these are amnesty applications. Considering the
fact that firearm owners are being prejudiced by the flaws in
the act and the failure to adhere to the very basic elements
of administrative justice further acknowledging that SAPS’
core function is policing and not paper work.
Will the Minister consider relieving the SAPS off the function
of administering firearm licences by outsourcing this function
to an independent entity supervised by the secretary of
police?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: “Not Yet Uhuru” on this thing of
outsourcing. Chairperson, I fully agree with the delays of
more than 90 to 200days, but as I have said that if you have a
receipt then you are regarded as owning a legal firearm. The
problem is when the owners of firearm just don’t follow the
law. They stay home and not become part of the law abiding
citizens in the Republic of South Africa.
I fully agree that the Firearm Registry could do better. There
are problems there of which we are working on fixing them,
including looking at different ways. What the hon member said
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cannot be ruled out but we have not reached that level yet. We
are at the level where things are being corrected.
We are also calling on the members to urge South Africans to
respect the law and say the law is not completely prejudicing
them in terms of not taking on board the legality of firearms.
You go there on time and get the receipt and then you are able
to respond on time. That is what we are requesting. Do call on
the government to do better but also call on the South
Africans to keep the law.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, illegal
obtained weapons are often used in criminal activities and are
a scourge upon ... What mechanisms are in place to ensure that
all firearms handed in to the South African Police Service
Firearm Registry are disposed of in a safe and legal manner
and cannot be illegally channelled to crime syndicate? Please
provide clear details of the process as well as the evidence
that all these weapons are destroyed.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The hon member wants detailed
evidence. Hon Chairperson, besides the amnesty, we have
operations. If you have noticed few weeks ago, the unit that
has done the job at Rosslyn, Dawn Park, and Midrand where in
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almost a month they collected more than 210 illegal firearms.
So, we do have these operations. Most of these firearms are
taken to the SPV13.
Indeed, there are weaknesses in the systems of keeping these
firearms, starting in this province where a sitting colonel
... [Inaudible.] ... selling 2000 illegal firearms out there.
Including what has happened in Norwood, where as we speak now
178 firearms have been sold by our own.
So, we are working on that with the administration and
management to tie that thing up. And also to take those
people that are breaking the law out of the system and put
them where they belong. Periodically, we are destroying
these firearms and unfortunately there are not too many
places we are using to destroy these firearms. There is one
in Vereeniging, Isipingo in KwaZulu-Natal.
We try not to keep them for a very long time to avoid to temp
criminals even among ourselves. They are destroyed and removed
out of the circulation in the communities. Thank you.
Question 24:
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The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, Chairperson. It is worth noting that much success
has been derived from the existing specialised commercial
crimes courts, S`CCC, model which allows for a close
integration of the work between prosecutors and investigators
and dedicated courts which can, once matters are enrolled,
process matters quickly and effectively instead of matters
having to wait for space on the open court roll. I have
approved the specialised commercial crimes courts project plan
2020. The plan provided for two phase approach and
establishing and enhancing existing specialised commercial
crimes courts. The first phase which entails the establishment
of new specialised commercial crimes courts in the provides
where there were none was scheduled for implementation during
the 2929-21 financial year. The second phase which entails the
enhancement of the existing special commercial crimes courts
in all other provinces was scheduled to commence in April 2021
to coincide with the beginning of the 2021-22 financial year.
Both the establishment and the enhancement of the specialised
commercial crime courts are guided by the evaluation of the
existing and envisaged caseloads as determined by the National
Prosecuting Authority’s specialised commercial crimes unit and
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the Department of Justice and Constitutional development’s
available resources.
Phase 1 was successfully implemented with the establishment of
new specialised commercial crimes courts in Limpopo,
Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West during the 2020-21
financial year. As we speak these courts are in operation.
Currently all provinces in the country have dedicated
specialised commercial crimes courts. Phase 2 was ready to be
implemented in the 20o21-22 financial year. The specialised
commercial crimes courts enhancement phase saw additional
specialised commercial crimes courts being established in
Mthatha, East London and Pietermaritzburg as well as the
enhancement of the existing specialised commercial crimes
courts in Palm Ridge, Pretoria North and Durban. The project
plans were requested from the relevant regional specialised
commercial crimes courts steering committees for consideration
by the national steering committee.
The new specialised commercial crimes courts in East London
and Mthatha were established and commenced operations on 06
April 2021. They are in operation, hon members. We are not
still speaking about plans, but they are in existence. The new
specialised commercial crime court in Pietermaritzburg
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commenced operations on 03 January 2022. The enhancement and
resourcing of the Palm Ridge and Pretoria North specialised
commercial crimes courts is being implemented as we speak.
For the coming financial year, the national specialised
commercial crimes courts steering committee will again request
the regional steering committees to consider the need for new
specialised commercial crimes courts in their regions. These
steering committees are composed of representatives of the
National Prosecuting Authority, Legal Aid South Africa,
members of the judiciary and officials of the Department of
Justice and Constitutional Development. They are tasked to
determine the need for additional specialised commercial
crimes courts by considering the current and projected
caseloads and to determine the resources both in terms of
tools of trade and human resources needed to fully capacitate
additional specialised commercial crimes courts. Funds for the
establishment and enhancement of the specialised commercial
crimes courts were allocated by the National Treasury for
three years – R40 million per year- with a slight escalation
per year with the last three being 2022-23 financial year.
The recruitment of judicial officers, court officials and
Legal Aid South Africa practitioners are costs that are
carried from year to year at every new specialised commercial
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crimes court established. The establishing of the new
specialised commercial crimes courts or enhancement of SCCCs
is thus depended o the need and the availability of funds. The
department envisage there will be sufficient funds for three
to four new specialised commercial crimes courts in the year
2022-23 financial year. The department will continue to put
these funds to their full use by enhancing the capacity of the
specialised commercial crimes courts as government steps up
its efforts to eradicate corruption both in the public and
private sector. Thank you.
Ms A RAMOLOBENG: Thanks, House Chair. Thanks Minister for the
response especially in giving us a brief about the specialised
commercial crimes courts. Minister, has an impact assessment
been conducted on the implementation and operation of the
specialised commercial crimes courts? To put it differently,
are these courts yielding their intended purpose and making a
material difference? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Chairperson. Indeed, there has been an impact assessment and
it has proven that all cases that go through these courts have
yielded high conviction rates because of the collaboration of
the law enforcement agencies that take matters through these
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courts and also because these courts have an outcome of
collaboration and involvement and engagement by all
stakeholders in terms of the needs and where they must be
located, and what cases must be prioritised and how they must
be handled. As a result it has fast racked and expedited some
of the long standing cases that are able to be handled and be
expedited except the ones that obviously would be beyond the
hands of the courts where obviously there would be
postponements related to the issues of an accused being sick,
legal representatives or sometimes judicial officers and so
forth. But the courts are having a huge impact and I do
believe that they send a very strong message to community and
society that the era of impunity is over through the
convictions of those that are found to be corrupt and also for
organised crime and criminal syndicates. Thank you.
Mr W HORN: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, congestion or
backlogs in respect of the specialised commercial crime
prosecution are, of course, not solely caused by the number of
courts available. Other factors such as the dedicated
availability of the presiding officers, the dedicated
availability of prosecutors with the necessary experience and
expertise as well as the requirements that operational issues
do not negatively impact, for example, court recording systems
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that need to be in place and operational. All these issues the
department and the NPA under your leadership have failed to
ensure over the last few years and are stuck realities. This
has resulted in a situation where the average number of hours
during which our courts are sitting have been dwindling from
one year to the next. What measures will be put in place to
ensure the full functionality of not only these new courts
that are being rolled out, but also those that have been part
of the establishment up to now? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Indeed, as you will realised that it is not only the
establishments of the courts that the resources have been put
forward for, but also the enhancements of those courts. The
Pal Ridge one is an enhancement, the Pretoria North one is an
enhancement and also the Durban one. This is an
acknowledgement of the challenges that these courts have
faced. These enhancements have helped those courts and are
helping these courts to be able to handle the matters that are
coming before them.
The issue of the court recording machines, as hon Horn is the
member of the committee is aware that there has been an issue
that seized the committee for almost the whole of last year
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including the department itself. As we speak now the matter
has been resolved to enable the court recording machines
across the country to do their jobs and not only in the
specialised commercial courts, but in all courts which had the
challenges of the court recording machines. We are hopeful
that we will be able to find a long-lasting and sustainable
solution so that the work of the courts is not disrupted but
they are able to function optimally. This include the
specialised commercial crimes courts where we expect that
matters that will also come through those courts from the
Zondo commission and other corruption related matters, are
able to receive priority as per the announcement of the
President during the state of the nation address.
We continue to monitor the challenges of the court recording
machines and attend to it everywhere it arises. But now that
the contract that would enable them to be maintained and be
kept in working condition is in place, we believe that the
problem will be resolved and the long-lasting solution will be
found. Thank you.
Mrs Y N YAKO: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, it
does not matter how many courts the country may have. But if
we still have poor investigative and prosecutorial capacity
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people will still get away with murder. Today, despite the
almost global condemnation of the corruption at Steinhoff, the
NPA still has no plans of charging Markus Jooste and other
corrupt white people. The NPA is seemingly very lenient to
crime committed by rich people such as Jooste. What plans have
you put in place to build the capacity to prosecute these sort
of crimes? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chairperson. Again, the assertion that
NPA is looking at colour to prosecute crimes is unfounded. The
National Prosecuting Authority is guided by the Constitution
and the National Prosecuting Authority Act that they must
prosecute without any fear, favour or prejudice to anyone. You
would have seen in the previous week or two where they have
prosecuted the executives of Tongaat Hulett in the fraud case
that relates to the financial statements of Tongaat Hulett. It
is a crime where those executives are whites in majority. The
National Prosecuting Authority did not look at their colour.
They looked at the crime that has been committed and
prosecuted.
With regard to Steinhoff, they have updated the nation that
there is still ongoing investigation which is a prosecutorial
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investigation and is handled by the NPA. Soon they will be
able to update the country as to how far they are and what is
happening. We need to remind members here that even in the
German jurisdictions they did not just wake up and arrest the
people involved in the Steinhoff matter, but it took them
about five years to finalise that complex sophisticated
investigation. You will have also seen from the national
Budget from the National Treasury that the national Treasury
has given an additional budget of about a billion rand to help
the NPA in terms of its human resources. Also, ourselves we
are looking to help them with the various resources that they
need to capacitate them to do their job. From time to time we
allow the NPA to use section 38 of the National Prosecuting
Authority Act to be able to source the skills that they need
to prosecute the crimes of corruption and of white collar
crime that might be sophisticated where they need additional
skills and resources. From our perspective it does not matter
who committed the crime, weather is black, coloured, Indian or
white they must do their job in accordance with what the
National Prosecuting Authority Act says and what the
Constitution says - prosecute without fear, favour or
prejudice. The President has also said that there is nothing
that stops the law enforcement agencies from doing their job
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in line with the current reports that emerged from the Zondo
commission of inquiry. Thank you.
Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. I heard what the
Minister said, but my question to the hon Minister is, could
the Minister explain to the House considering all the extra
measures that he mentioned to the House with the extra budget
and the extra capacity that has been created by the
department, what difference will it make seeing that the
department has not up to now succeeded in conducting a proper
court system and an investigating system? We all know that the
special investigating unit is already incapacitated and
underfunded as it is because of the fact that the departments
do not pay their bills. The hon Minister should explain to the
House; how will it be different this time around? Thank you,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much. The difference is that there is now experience in
terms of capacitation, for example, the investigative
directorate. There is also a migration of a data centre from
the Zondo commission which will enable and help all law
enforcement agencies with the information that they need and
also the capacitation in terms of the forensic skills, digital
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skills and accounting forensic skills that are needed to deal
with these forensic gaps and kinds of crimes that are complex
and sometimes cross boarder and goes to multijurisdictions.
This is the kind of assistance and help that we continue to
provide to them to enable them to get these kind of human
resource and also financial resources from the National
Treasury as I have said.
We do believe that with the appointment of the skilled
personnel in the investigative directorate, ID, and also that
the head of the ID will be appointed soon. Also, all the heads
of other provinces that are not incumbent by court for the
National Prosecuting Authority will be appointed soon. This
will help to have much-needed guidance and leadership in most
of the prosecutorial matters that need decisions and that also
need guidance to some of the juniors that are coming within
the NPA.
The continuation of the aspirant prosecutor programme have
enabled the NPA to grow their own team from within. It enables
them to bring fresh blood and fresh mind and also to
reposition the National Prosecuting Authority again in the
life of legal practitioners in the country as an employer of
choice, as a pride of the nation and as anyone who would want
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to serve the rule of law to stand there and be a prosecutor of
the public. Thank you.
Question 49:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chair. Our response to the question of the hon member Chetty
is that we have given loan to the Republic of Cuba in 2018,
which is R63 million with the interests accrued of
R1,366 million and that loan has been fully paid. The second
loan was granted last year 2021, which is R84,6 million with
the interests accrued of R1,7 million and the first instalment
of R9,9 million was paid in December 2021. Thank you, House
Chair.
Mr M CHETTY: Deputy Minister, clearly you are standing in for
Minister Pandor today because she has been reprimanded for a
comment regarding Russia invasion of Ukraine. Deputy Minister,
further to these funds your department ... [Inaudible.] ...
wisdom so it is fit to donate and it donated R50 million to
Cuba for food security as the Deputy Minister ... [Inaudible.]
... Was this donation in lieu of the fact that we still owe
Cuba for the redacted useless vaccines we purchased. Are you
aware that the hungry in Cuba has stabilised at 2,5% since
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2002, while South Africa is sitting at 12,9%. This is a total
misallocation and misdirection of funding. Deputy Minister,
this is the African Renaissance fund and not the African
National Congress cookie jar. In view of this, are you willing
to redirect this R50 million funding to assist with food
security here at home as charity leaders begin at home? If
not, why not? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chair. Well, the hon member has asked about the loans that
we’ve granted the Republic of Cuba. He never asked us about
any donations, that’s a new question according to me. He has
got a full right to write a question about how much donation
we’ve given to the Republic of Cuba. Therefore, as it stands
he speaks about a R50 million which was announced today in
Cuba which I’m sitting here in South Africa and I never heard
that announcement, but I will follow it up because as we work
as the Ministry we have got our responsibilities differently.
Therefore, now I will check what is it that the hon member or
the hon Deputy Minister has announced. Up to so far I wasn’t
even aware that there is that announcement because that is not
part of my responsibility for that country. Thank you very
much, hon House Chair.
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Ms B SWARTS: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the
practice and culture of states providing support to other
states including financial assistance in the form of loans to
another country or countries is normal practice in diplomacy.
Can the Deputy Minister share with the House the kinds of
support that our country received and continues to receive
from other countries including from Cuba? Thank you, House
Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chair. The hon member is correct that it is a normal practice
that to give loans because these are loans that are paid back.
However, definitely there’s a lot that we are benefiting from
Cuba since 1996. Then I think the hon members are aware that
we’ve received 96 Cuban doctors that were sent to us in line
with our South Africa-Cuba relations which serves as an
exemplary model for South-South co-operation with a numerous
governments and government agreements governing the co-
operation in the areas of training, health services, human
settlement, technical exchange, science and technology, public
works technical assistance, co-operation on water resource
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management and water supply and on professional services in
the field of basic education.
I want to remind members that recently in April 2020, there
was medical brigades that was sent to South Africa for 12
months, 217 brigades and medical practitioners to come and
help us on the issues of coronavirus disease, Covid, response.
Therefore, those are the doctors that have got expertise from
Cuba. Therefore, there’s a lot that we are receiving from
Cuba. We also have got 19 Cuban curriculum specialists
deployed here in South Africa in the Department of Basic
Education. They are throughout the country: Gauteng, Free
State and Eastern Cape. They’re helping our teachers and our
students on issues of mathematics and science and technology.
We also have got an agreement and we have received 25 Cuban
engineers who are helping us on water and sanitation in South
Africa, and they are throughout the provinces. I think, hon
members, all of them are aware that because of the
contribution of the Cuban doctors and Cuban technical people
that came to South Africa, we are able to render services that
the hon member is saying of the R50 million that will
disadvantage the service delivery in South Africa. However, we
are getting a lot from Cuba, in particular, in terms of our
co-operation with them. Thank you very much, House Chair.
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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chair. I will
take the question, it’s Mkhaliphi. Deputy Minister, taking
into account the history the country has with Cuba and the
great sacrifices Cuba has made for our freedom, what forms of
tangible support have you made available to Cuba over the
years? Why have you not use whatever diplomatic ways you have
to persuade the United States, US, to leave the evil economic
embargo it placed on Cuba because of ideological reasons?
Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House
Chairperson. Well, as I have indicated that there is a lot
that we are interacting with, with Cuba, and there’s lots of
help and even pre-democracy Cuba has been on our side.
However, the issue between Cuba and America are issues of two
countries, but the discussions amongst them is the discussion
that belongs to them. However, our support to Cuba really is
not that we want to be enemy of America, but we are supporting
Cuba because of the relation that we have which is called
South-South relations that we have with Cuba. Thank you very
much, House Chair.
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Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, House Chair. Hon
House Chair, after all that Cuba has done for South Africa I
would like to know if the Minister will support that the loan
be written off so that it shows our genuine appreciation for
what Cuba did and that led to our liberations. Thank you very
much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, hon
House Chair. Well, loans are governed by our financial
legislation, hon member. Therefore, if it is loan then that’s
the agreement that we have with Cuba and have exercised a good
commitment on the previous loan that we have given. Therefore,
we hope that they’ve got capacity to pay back the loan. They
never ask for anything than the loan. Therefore, if ever
there’s any gesture that you can do to Cuba, I think the
country will decide on whatever gesture that you can give to
Cuba. Of course, they have helped us. Thank you very much,
House Chair.
Question 3:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, firstly, I want to correct what I said earlier on
and state that the Head of the Investigating Directorate, ID
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has now been appointed by His Excellency the President. So,
the capacity will be enhanced.
Enhancing the capacity and skills of the National Prosecuting
Authority, NPA to effectively prosecute corruption is a
national priority. The nature and extent of alleged corruption
described in the Zondo Commission Report highlights the need
for bold and innovative approaches to enhancing the capacity
and skills of the criminal justice entities including the NPA.
These are complex crimes that require sophisticated response.
In this regard, the NPA was allocated additional budget of
R1,1 billion over the 2022 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework,
MTEF period as follows: in 2022-23, the allocation is R422,7
million; 2023-24, the allocation is R327 million; and 2024-25,
the allocation is R342 million. Sixty-eight per cent of the
allocation will be used to enhance the capacity of the NPA
through additional staffing in the following units: The
National Prosecutions Service, NPS, 700 aspirant prosecutors;
the Asset Forfeiture Unit, AFU, 17 senior state advocates;
Office for Witness Protection, OWP, 12 protectors; and the ID,
91 investigators and prosecutors.
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Despite this additional funding support, the fiscus will never
have enough funds to meet the demand on the prosecutors in
light of the findings of the Zondo Commission. The NPA has
identified the need for an additional R1,2 billion in the 2023
MTEF period. The NPA is engaging the National Treasury to
explore options on how to appropriately utilise private donor
funding and in-kind support without undermining its
independence.
The NPA will ensure accurate and transparent donation-
reporting and will establish donor-funding oversight committee
as a further governance structure. The National Treasury and
the Director-General, DG of the Department of Justice are
working closely with the NPA to establish the said oversight
committee. All cash donations will be managed through the RDP
funds through the National Treasury processes. The RDP funds
can be used to support any request from the broader criminal
justice system.
In addition to more skills and capacity, we will be providing
the required tools of trade needed to deliver on their
important mandate critical to the success of the strategy to
address corruption and in the appointment of suitable senior
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counsel to support the prosecution in high-level complex
matters.
There has also been a steep increase in the need for expanded
witness protection due to the threatening or sometimes killing
of whistle-blowers. The President has also appointed Adv N
Somaru as the Director of Public Prosecutions in the Free
State, Bloemfontein; Adv M R Makhari-Sekhaolelo as the
Director of Public Prosecutions in North West; Adv N Bell as
the Director of Public Prosecutions in the Western Cape
division.
This is a clear commitment and demonstration of this
government in capacitating the National Prosecuting Authority
and giving it the relevant support and skills to do its job
without any fear, favour or prejudice. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Hon Minister, arising from your response, it’s
shocking that only R106,4 million was allocated to the
Investigating Directorate within the NPA during the current
financial year. We, as the ACDP welcome the additional funding
considering that the Zondo Commission made scathing comments
that the NPA’s failure to respond adequately or at all to the
challenges of state capture corruption points to a fundamental
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failure of a sovereign state function. So, we appreciate that
very serious steps are being taken to enhance the capabilities
of the NPA and the Investigating Directorate, and we support
the appointment of the new Head of the Investigating
Directorate. Thank you for correcting yourself in that regard.
However, hon Minister, you indicated that the NPA still
indicated a shortage of R1,1 billion. So, clearly, given the
large number of cases referred to it by the Zondo Commission,
they will not have the capacity to deal with all the matters.
Will the hon Minister support those requests for additional
funding from National Treasury to ensure that successful
investigations and prosecutions, together with the private
sector, are instituted in terms of the Zondo Commission
recommendations?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much for those words, hon Swart. We always gain a lot of
insight from your inputs. And as you have said, you have
raised this issue in the previous financial year, hence this
response to capacitate the ID and all the relevant
institutions.
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Whilst the capacitation has been on a very large scale, as you
have said, but there is still a need, as I have said earlier,
for more funding. Hence, we are exploring the issue of the RDP
Fund which is there in government in a form of the current
Solidarity Fund that we have used during the crisis of Covid.
It is clear that we may need a fund of that nature.
Hence, we are looking at the RDP Fund with the National
Treasury because of the volume of work that will definitely go
to all the law enforcement agencies and not only the NPA
because, as you are aware, it’s almost like a relay effect
from an investigation by the police or the SIU, to the NPA and
the justice system, the courts and later the correctional
service. So, that whole value chain needs to be capacitated to
be able to respond adequately to this.
I can assure you that we are exploring all the avenues with
the National Treasury. We are also cautious because, with all
the avenues that we need to explore in terms of the RDP Fund
and or any kind of donor funding that may end up coming into
the space, we need to ensure that the independence of the NPA
which is sacrosanct is or may never be compromised. Whatever
happens must still be within what the Constitution allows in
terms of the independence of the NPA and the NPA Act. Hence,
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this task becomes a bit complex when engaging with the
National Treasury, the Department of Justice and also the NPA
itself.
One of the mechanisms, as I have said, is to look into some
kind of an oversight committee which will ensure that whatever
might happen, it is still in line with Act so that we don’t
have fall-backs and all the matters are handled properly
including the finances that are intended to help the NPA. You
can rest assured that, the fact that we have engaged with the
National Treasury to have additional funding is a clear
political commitment from this government that, we want to
support the work of the NPA, the ID in particular, and also
all the law enforcement agencies to be able to follow through
and implement all the recommendations of the Zondo Commission
of Enquiry. We will continue to do so. Thank you.
Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: Minister, thank you very much. You have
already answered my question partly. Indeed, the Zondo Report
will present an opportunity to many aspirant prosecutors and
young legal practitioners who have joined the legal
profession. So, my question to you, Minister, is: Has the
department considered ways and means of empowering these young
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practitioners in the implementation of the Report? Thank you,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, we
have. Hence, there is aspirant prosecutor training programme
and there’s also continuous trial advocacy within the NPA, and
sometimes using the Justice College to continue to empower
these prosecutors who are coming up within the ranks of the
NPA. But also, an on-job training of matching the young and
skilled with experienced prosecutors.
We have also emphasised to the NPA and the State Attorney
that, where they use section 38 or even if it’s internal
within the NPA, the parties involved in any matter must
reflect the demographics and diversity of our country. The
previously-disadvantaged individuals and in particular, black
practitioners, must also be given a fair opportunity to handle
very complex and forensic matters so that we are able to also
empower black practitioners in this space to gain skills and
exposure. The mixture and diversity can always enhance the
work of any law enforcement agency where there are skills
coming from different backgrounds and demographics. Thank you.
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Mr W HORN: Minister, given your admission, which is of course
quite correct, that the fiscus will never be in a position to
supply the funds needed to deal with the number of cases which
will come from specifically the Zondo Commission; and given
the fact that the Investigating Directorate has a lifespan of
only two years left; and your response to the previous
question that, from time to time, section 38 may be employed
by the NPA to source critical expert skills, would you not
agree that the time has come to allow, in line with the donor
fund, for section 38 to be employed in order to really address
prosecutions coming from the Zondo Commission? Thank you,
House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, as
we speak now, there are prosecutors that I have approved as
the Minister in terms of section 38, who are currently doing
the work for the ID or for the NPA. Hon members would have
seen some of the senior practitioners who are practising in
their own right handling matters. Some of the matters have
been on television for the past two or three weeks. There have
been many Senior Counsels who have, as we speak, been working
and helping the work of the ID on these complex matters and in
some aspects of the NPA.
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From time to time when the NPA does come to us, where funds
are available and also confirmed by the National Treasury, we
approve the section 38 skills as per what the Horn says. We
continue to do so and help them to be able to acquire these
skills. The issue that he has also said, although not as a
question, about the lifespan of the ID which will expire in
the next two years, indeed, that is also an issue we are
currently considering because it is clear that these matters
will go beyond two years. So, we will need a structure that is
going to evolve organically into a permanent structure to
handle these matters as we move forward, including some of the
corruption matters.
We are also looking at what has come as a recommendation from
the Zondo Commission in terms of procurement corruption
institution. So, we are looking at all those factors to see
what then should be the permanent structure that must handle
all these matters going forward. It’s something at the top of
our minds and we intend that, by the time the President comes
to Parliament to report on the recommendations of the Zondo
Commission, he also brings the recommendation as to what we
are going to do with the permanent structure in this regard.
Thank you.
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Mrs Y N YAKO: Mr Lamola, the extent of crime identified by the
State Capture Commission is wide and debilitating. That
notwithstanding, it is possible to agree that it is only the
tip of the iceberg; and that our country is still being mopped
dry even today by criminal networks that go very high in our
government. How will you ensure that the NPA does not lose
sight of criminal networks currently active in the country,
capturing the state and laying our public resources to waste?
Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Although it
is kind of a vague question, I’ll try to respond ...
[Interjections.]
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Please, answer the question!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi,
please don’t do that!
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, it
is a vague question but I’ll make an attempt to respond. This
government is committed to deal with PPE corruption that
emanated during the Covid-19 situation and I have reported
here that all the courts that President said we were going to
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establish, have been established. People in very senior and
high ranks have appeared in those courts.
The Special Investigating Unit and also the Special Tribunal
have taken monies to the tune of millions of rand back into
the fiscus, which is a clear commitment from this government
that there must be no corruption that goes unnoticed,
unpunished and unattended to. So, all the issue that come to
the fore are attended to without any fear or delay.
Hence, you would remember that all the procurement issues that
emanated from the PPE scandal were also put also put into the
National Treasury website where anyone could scrutinise who
did what and how did it happen. It was the first of its kind
and at the highest level of transparency. So, there is no one
who is hiding anything from the government that is led by
President Ramaphosa. He wants to see transparency.
He wants to see people of South Africa getting value for their
money. If the money is meant to build a bridge, that money
must build the bridge. If money is intended to build a school,
that money must build the school. That is what the President
wants us to do. He also emphasised that through the accounting
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officers in various departments and also the Auditor-General,
AG, we must work more on preventative measures.
Preventative measures must be put in place so that there’s no
money stolen because to deal with the prosecution and get back
the money is more expensive than prevention. So, the focus has
also been emphasised that there must be preventative measures
and prevention of corruption so that it does not happen.
People must get value for their money. Where it has happened,
it must be punished. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 27:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: House Chair, we
can confirm that all the Heberon alpha-2b drugs that were
stored at the South African Military Health Services depot was
returned to Cuba on 22 January 2022. We further confirm that
all the vials were delivered and accepted by the Cuban
officials. We have no report that any of the vials expired in
our hands or on arrival in Cuba.
This consignment left together with the routine flight
transporting the Cuban specialists and technicians on their
annual vacation to Cuba. On their way back, the same flight
brought back the South African students for their break at
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home. The use of this routine and scheduled flight saved the
department the cost of chartering a special flight to Cuba. I
was also asked how much it costs. That flight that was
scheduled to take the Cubans home costs R11,5 million.
On the second question, the vials, we will remember, were
returned because the ministerial task team as well as the
Auditor-General recommended that we must return it. We must
also note that, at the same time, the Cuban embassy had sent a
note verbally that they urgently needed 500 000 for their own
use for their citizens.
Lastly, we still engage with the Cuban government on this
transaction, because you will remember that we received more
vials than what we had paid for. When that is worked out, we
will come back to the House and to the members to say whether
we still owe any or not and how much. At this moment, this is
as far as I can go. Thank you.
Mr V C XABA: House Chair, Minister, given the extent to which
the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, repatriated
the drug, as per the recommendation of the ministerial task
team, did the events leading to the repatriation of the drug,
including the repatriation of the drugs damage the country-to-
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country relations, and has the Minister conceded putting in
place a plan to repair the relations? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: We have indeed
considered ways to continue with the cordial relations between
Cuba and South Africa. We will remember that, in fact, Cuba
did not offer us the drugs, but the South African Medical
Health Services approached using the provision that a Chief of
the SANDF can and must protect the force. Given the fact that
this particular inclusion of the provisions for the Chief of
the SANDF has never been tested before in this country, I
think, it is something that we must explore.
Using that provision, the SANDF then approached the Department
of Health and the South African Health Products Regulatory
Authority, Sapra, to facilitate. We also know that the
relationship must indeed be cured because when SAPRA gave the
SANDF permission to take 10 vials out of that consignment for
voluntary testing, they took those 10 vials and gave it to a
soldier who was very sick with Covid-19 and who could have
died. He took a risk and that man is walking around.
So, the drug and the reason we need to work on curing this
relationship is important, because, indeed, the drug was not
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useless. We do not know the extent of how useful this would
have been had the processes within South Africa not been too
convoluted in terms of the request to Sapra and the Department
of Health and had all of these been done. And I am not
speaking on behalf of the SANDF and I am not casting
aspersions here. But, if you follow the timelines when the
request was made and when the responses were made, we would
then have been able to say to hon Chetty, indeed, the drug is
useless. However, at his point, hon Chetty, we cannot say that
the Heberon is useless. As South Africa, we just don’t know,
because that drug was not given the chance to go through the
tests within this country.
So, yes, we are looking at ways, so that, in the future, we do
not have an issue that when anything that comes from the
Western countries, it is not rejected, simply because it comes
from those who were with us in the trenches. Thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Chair, Minister, the smuggling of the
mentioned Cuban drug with more than R240 million is
embarrassing and wasteful beyond imagination. The findings by
the AG and SAPRA corroborate the fraud and transgressions by
the SANDF of every conceivable medicine import law and
regulation. Last year, you stated the heads must roll and that
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those responsible must be held accountable, based on the
relevant legal transgressions. So far, nothing has happened.
Minister, will you commit yourself today again that whoever
was complicit and part of the illegal and fraudulent decisions
and activities, irrespective, if they are the current or the
previous military command council members and if prima facie
evidence exist, even your predecessor, will be held
accountable and charged accordingly, or will the politically
connected enjoy impunity? Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Die MINISTER VAN VERDEDIGING EN MILITêRE VETERANE: Mnr Marais,
ek dink u is voorbarig, ...
English:
... because there is a question that deals with that, but I
will respond right now. Yes, indeed, I said that heads will
roll. When I respond later, I will reassert that those who
were responsible, will face the disciplinary measures within
the department.
However, I am also saying that had the process been fair and
timeous, we might not have been where we are today, where we
have to take the members of the SANDF, who, in their own
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thinking, were panicking and were trying to protect their
troops into this.
As to whether it was smuggled, that is where the disciplinary
code, DC, is going because then we accept that they should
have applied to bring the drug in.
So, no, we are not going to protect anybody. I don’t know what
happened there. That report is pointing us as to who must be
brought in front of the DCs, whether they are in the DOD, in
the military or whether they are civilians or in any other
department. We are going after that. So, nobody will be
spared, simply because they are privileged. Nobody is
privileged.
We are saying that maybe, just maybe, sometimes, this country
must not just respect Western countries, it must respect any
other country ... [Applause.] [Inaudible.]
Mr W T I MAFANYA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, we have been seized
of this matter for quite a long time and we all agreed that
this was illegally done. We need to know who gave the
authorisation that those drugs should be imported into the
country. As the Minister says, she is seized of the matter. We
also want to know who gave authorisation for the drug being
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taken into the country illegally, and what the Minister is
going to do about it. Partly, the Minister has answered that,
but I would like to get further clarity on that. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, yes,
indeed, this matter has dragged and that was because we were
waiting for the ministerial task team to finish their
investigation. You will also remember that, when I first came
in, a draft report was given and we now have that report. That
report will take members into DCs and that report also says
that we need to follow up on people other than just those who
were involved.
I cannot name people here right now, because I did not come
here with a list of names of all implicated, but I can assure
you that nobody who did anything that was not properly and
timeously authorised will be left out.
I beg the House’s indulgence to get time to process those
names and whatever before I can publicise it. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, Mhlonishwa
usuyibeke yacaca le nto. Umbuzo wami nje usuzoba mfushane
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ngoba kuyacaca ukuthi le mithi yalethwa la kugwenywe
inhlangano eqondene nokubhekela ukungeniswa kwemithi yeZempilo
ngaphakathi ezweni. Mhlawumbe umuntu angabuza: Kwakungani
ukuthi uphume ngemuva lo muthi ubusubonakala ngaphakathi bese
bekwazi ukugxeka laba ababhekele inhlangano i-South African
Health Products Regulation Authority bayigweme ukuthi ingene?
Ngiyathokoza.
English:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, I did
not get the last part properly.
IsiZulu:
Ukuthi ingene kanjani, ngiyacela ...
English:
... indulgence, just so that I respond accordingly.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chair, the fact is that this medicine
was brought in by passing the authority, which is responsible
for the approval of any medication that comes into South
Africa. The question is as simple as that: Why were they
brought in behind the authorities?
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon House
Chair, that is exactly the basis of the case why there was not
patients to get the authorisation and who had given that
authority. That is what the disciplinary action will be
address. That is why I was asking the House to indulge, so
that I don’t blather out people’s names without taking proper
legal advice on that.
However, that DC is just centred on that particular case, on
the illegal bringing-in of the drug, because had the processes
been followed, we might have had Sapra saying that it is not
good or that it is good, and if it is good, to go ahead and
procure. And we might not have been here. Thank you.
Question 1:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I hope my permission of talking while
sitting still stands.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): It still stands,
hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you. in terms of section 64E of
the South African Police Service Act, Act No.68 of 1995, the
functions of a municipal police service are; traffic policing;
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the policing of municipal by-laws and regulations that are the
responsibility of the relevant municipality and the prevention
of crime. And a municipal police service does not have a
legislative mandate to conduct a criminal investigation or to
gather intelligence information. Thank you.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you,
Minister, for the answer. And I think the answer is clear and
always has been, Minister, that a unit that is not established
within a municipal police service as both the City of Cape
Town and the Western Cape MEC or former MEC - he was fired
yesterday – claims this unit is not part of the municipal
police service but it is gathering crime intelligence. It is
engaging with foreign police services, for example, the United
States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI. It is
engaging with Interpol. It is doing profiles on notorious
organised criminals in the Western Cape and Cape Town, where
they are profiling these individuals in a city where organised
crime is increasingly a problem.
And, Minister, we know that organised crime relies on
connections between gangsters and criminal networks and police
units and rogue police officers. So where we have a highly
organised crime prevalence in our province and our city, we
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have a rogue police unit acting parallel to the police service
or the Hawks, like some sort of third force conducting
criminal investigations that it has no mandate to do, and
engaging with the FBI and Interpol. So, Minister, how are we
to crackdown on organised crime when the head of this unit is
currently being prosecuted for exactly that, tampering with
police dockets in order to hide evidence to prevent
prosecutions from taking place when he was a police officer in
Witbank?
We have, in Cape Town, a rogue police unit that could be
aiding and abetting crime in this province and this city. And
it is going, carrying on unattended. So, Minister, what are
you going to do to shut this unit down or make this unit a
municipal police service that is accountable, at least, to the
MEC for Community Safety and this Parliament? Thank you,
Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Eh! Ja-neh! Chairperson, there’s no
doubt that some elements of the government either provincial
or local have been constitutional delinquents in the Western
Cape. No doubt about it. They've been constitutional
delinquents. But we have a responsibility for integrated
governance. As you have said, hon member, one has gone through
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this. We have decided to take an easy way, a soft landing way.
The Minister of Police, with the management of the police, we
have met with the premier of this province and the mayor of
this city to say, but this can’t be.
By the way, intelligence work is highly regulated. There are
three entities that are allowed by the Constitution to do
that. If there is any deviation from those three which are the
police, defence ... and it is written that only the President
can do that deviation and appoint a person. No premier, no
mayor, no nobody can do that. So we have met. There are ways
of increasing the capacity of the city which we will welcome.
But the City of Cape Town, together with the province, they've
put R1 billion extra by bypassing the legal structures. For
instance, if they've taken this law enforcement and all these
people and put them in the metro police, which falls under all
laws, like the Independent Police Investigative Directorate,
Ipid, like the Secretariat, like Gauteng, Durban, Tshwane and
Ekurhuleni. But they have decided to bypass that and do they
have something that they call the Safety and Security
Investigation Unit, SSIU. I only know one, the Special
Investigative Unit, SIU. They have theirs. They have
intelligence collection. That unit you talked about is a unit
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of 59, headed by a person who himself is getting arrested and
disappearing in court.
So you can’t have a special unit that has all illegal powers
headed by a person who himself is supposed to be appearing in
court and all that. But, as I have said, the premier, the
Minister of Police and the mayor have agreed that our legal
departments, led by advocate Chamane on my side, will come
together and brief us in the shortest possible time to say,
these things are illegal, stop them. Should they not stop
them, we will take it from there. But we didn't want to use
the hammer on this one although I understand there is a lot of
illegality. We didn't want to use the hammer. We have used
this soft approach. We hope everybody will be part of it and
it will be resolved peacefully and amicably. That is the
answer. Thanks.
Mr A M SEABI: Thank you chair and thank you, hon Minister, and
let me acknowledge your answer. Minister, having heard what
you have said as an answer to the question. What is your view
or attitude towards municipalities having, as one of their
functions, the gathering of intelligence, and whether such a
function at the municipal level is in the interest of the
Republic of South Africa? Thank you, Chair.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, partially that has been
answered. There is only one municipal police that has grabbed
that capacity for itself beyond the Constitution, it is the
Western Cape, it is Cape Town only. And there are other things
that, as I've said, they could have done things in a proper
way like the Constitution and all that says. For instance,
metro police, in this city, there are only 694 but in the so-
called law enforcement, there are 2 017. So, yes, they are
bypassing the law. For instance, law enforcement does not fall
under the Ipid. So they have no structure that they fall under
to be able to ... [Interjections.] ... No, there is no
structure. That's why, when a member of the law enforcement
here gunned down a member of the SA Police Service, we had a
problem. They gunned down a member of the SA Police Service
these law enforcers here. And we had to run around like
headless chickens trying to find out which structure that will
... Thank God those have been found guilty. But not only that,
they, again, just repeated this a few weeks ago. They have
gunned down another person on the street. So they tell you
that are rookies and that is how they behave. That's why we're
calling on both the province and the municipality here to fall
within the law and pursue these things. We do agree, put money
and let’s together to reduce the crime and all that, but you
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are not going to reduce crime and all that but you are not
going to reduce crime by breaking the law. Thanks.
Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, you know, it is quite
obvious that the hon Herron has got a lot of information and
hopefully between him as a responsible citizen, let alone a
Member of Parliament and the Minister, they are going to do
the right thing. It is clear that the hon Mr Herron and his
GOOD party do not want the DA to succeed in the Western Cape.
Now, in terms of section 64E (c)of the Police Act, the
prevention of crime is also one of the functions of municipal
police service. Now, Minister, would you agree that effective
crime prevention inevitably necessitates a certain degree of
crime intelligence gathering and investigation of criminal
cases, especially in our country where the national police
service is failing dismally? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, this question is
even worse because it comes from a former police officer. It
comes from a former police officer that is supposed to
understand and uphold the law which he should have learned and
read his Constitution as to how these things are there. He was
not just a police officer he was a general and he should
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understand. But I am not here to correct the general, a
general that was crooked himself. And he knows what he left.
He knows what he left all the way and all that kind of stuff.
[Interjections.] So I will just end there.
Mr D BERGMAN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister
has just cast an aspersion on one of our members. He knows the
right procedure. [Interjections.] He said that a ...
[Interjections.] ... let everybody settle. I’m not going to
advertise what he said. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon
member. Hon Minister, could you please withdraw that? I heard
that myself, so that we can continue.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: When I am done, by the way, this
member that is talking was a member of the supply chain
management and he left too many police stations not built. He
was moving all the ... [Inaudible.] ... trying to find ...
[Interjections.] ... [Inaudible.] ...
Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: You have built none at the moment.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... and fix things there. Thank you
very much, Chair.
Mr H A SHEMBENI: Chair, yeah, I am partially answered by the
Minister. But according to section 205, 206 and 207 of the
Constitution makes it clear that policing is a national
competence and that no policing function should happen outside
of these constitutional prescripts. While the municipalities
are allowed to have their so-called law enforcement, this must
never rival the work of the SA Police Service, SAPS.
The City of Cape Town has been attempting to federalise
policing for a while. Why have you allowed this to happen?
What risks are there for a municipality as ideologically
regressive as the City of Cape town is to have their own mini
police rivalling the SAPS, Minister? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, not only that, they
are causing trouble. For instance, there are many places where
the SA Police Service members come after they've shot people,
especially these law enforcers that are much bigger than the
metro who are supposed to be legal. They are not used for
crime prevention in the African areas. They are used to push
people ...
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IsiZulu:
... babakhiphe lapha, babakhiphe ...
English:
... and all of that. That is their thing. In several places
where they go and start trouble, by the time the SA Police
Service who are trained as the Public Order Police, POP, to
deal with the people on the ground, they come too late when
the trouble has come. You know what happened to that naked man
that was taken and paraded naked. That was not the police.
Those were the very same law enforcers who tell you that they
have no human understanding. There's no human respect.
This is the call we are making. Let us sit down and correct
these things otherwise, we're not going to have the Republic
of the Western Cape here where they are doing things that
they're not supposed to. Maybe you are correct, hon Shembeni.
[Applause.] The members here must help this province by
reading sections 205, 206 and 207, they will understand what
the Constitution is saying. As I said at the start, they are
constitutional delinquents when it comes to this one. Thanks.
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Ms S GWARUBE: House Chairperson, I have a point of order. You
had made a ruling about two minutes ago where you asked the
hon Minister to withdraw his aspersions that he had cast on a
hon member. He did not do so. And he knows that the correct
procedure is to bring in a substantive motion, which he has
not done. So please could I ask that that be enforced?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr L M D Ntombela): I will make a
follow up on that, hon member, because I've already passed
that. But I'll make a follow up on that so that the
appropriate action is taken and followed. Thank you very much.
Question 32:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the answer is not very
short but not too long either. There has been a recent spark
in multiple murders in the Kwazulu-Natal Province. The SA
Police Service Provincial Commissioner in KwaZulu-Natal, has
established a task team to deal with investigation of the
multiple murders The task team is based at KwaZulu-Natal SA
Police Service Provincial Office and is led by the senior
officer. All the multiple murder cases dockets have been
centralised to the office of the provincial commissioner for
investigation and monitoring. The investigating team leader
presents progress on the investigations to the KwaZulu-Natal
Provincial Commissioner on the monthly basis.
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A total of 189 suspects have been arrested since April 2021,
and several firearms were also recovered during this period.
Bail is opposed with regards to all the arrested suspects. All
the ceased firearms are sent to the SA Police Service, SAPS
Forensic Science Laboratory Ballistic Section for testing and
linkages to the crimes. The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial
Commissioner is closely monitoring progress made in the
investigation.
The following preventative measures have been implemented by
the SAPS to ensure the safety of the communities and
preventing KwaZulu-Natal from becoming a blood field where the
people die in numbers. The crime trend analysis and the crime
pattern analysis are analysed to identify hotspot areas.
Hotspots are patrolled by means of high visibility blue light
patrol, stop and search operations are conducted to retrieve
weapons of choice and arrest offenders. Cordon and search
operations are conducted in problematic areas, eg hostels and
other hotspots areas. Informers are utilised to assist in
defined criminal groups. Crime prevention operations are
intensified in KwaZulu-Natal Province.
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A Drug and Firearm Task Team was established to focus on
specific crimes. Crime intelligence information is
operationalised. Awareness campaigns are held to educate
communities. Multidisciplinary operations are conducted. The
National Liquor Act is implemented to identify and close
illegal shebeens. Partnerships with private security companies
have been enhanced. Community policing forum structures are
enhanced at the district and police stations level. Sector
policing is effectively monitored. School safety patrols are
conducted during the peak times. School safety programs are
conducted when the schools are operational. The investigation
of gender-based violence and femicide crimes is prioritised
with a special team called ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very
much Chair.
Ms L N MOSS: Thank you very much Minister for your
comprehensive reply, it is very informative. For those who
don't understand it, I hope you took notes when the Minister
was responding to my question, because it is also for your
constituencies, you can assist your constituencies. Now, I
want to do a follow up on the implementation of the
preventative measures mentioned in part B. What has been the
situation on these measures’ ways to bring control? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson for some reason we have
detected the increase of the abuse of drugs in the Province of
KwaZulu-Natal. The violence has increased in three spheres:
One is political killings that everybody knows about.
Secondly, it is these mass killings that are based on
criminality, mostly drugs and illegal firearms. Thirdly, it is
what happened in July where there were racial killings around
the place called Phoenix. We have formulated special teams to
respond on that one. The political killings led by General
Khumalo. This one of drugs, led by Colonel Ngcobo. The Phoenix
and surrounding racial killings led by Brigadier Cele. All of
them they have done a very good work. One good work on the
prevention is that they have arrested a lot of perpetrators.
As you see this 187 is only for those people that are linked
in drugs and illegal firearms, and then the 301 on the
political killings have been arrested in the province. Sixty-
nine plus 27 have been arrested, which is 69 in Phoenix and 27
in the neighbouring town of Verulam has been arrested.
So we believe that, should those people be arrested and be
sent to prison for a long time which will be part of
prevention, because most of them especially the political
killings are across the board. You find them killing for cash
heists, find the killing for taxi violence, killing for
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politics and killing for being thieves and all that. So, we
are working on these identified groups as prevention, but also
we are creating the visibility and quick response on these
matters and these areas. We are also enhancing working with
the communities as preventative measures. Thank you very much,
Chair.
Gen O S M TERBLANCHE: The Minister came out with a typical
shotgun approach, you know. Hopefully by now the murder rate
is quite a bit down and under control. Minister, can you maybe
tell us since your introduction of these measures that you
mentioned, this whole newspaper of them: What is the
percentage drop in the in the murder rate, in KwaZulu-Natal? I
also want a comprehensive answer. Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don't think I heard him well on what
he said, but I heard at the tail end that: What is the
percentage of murder rate drop. It hasn’t happened
Chairperson. We are having the problem as I explained that it
has shifted, that is why we are coming with responses of
creating these units. But I have said that, we have a very
high rate of arresting these gangs and these people that are
killing people there. The more you put them in there, the more
of them doing life sentences which is quite as big number. We
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believe that working together with the other segments in
sending people to prison will help us. The police and the
prosecution working together will be able to bring these
murders and other general crime down, but the responses are
good and the responses continue to happen. Thank you Chair.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Well, Minister the responses are not good.
You know very well that not everyone especially the Indians,
the thugs Indians who killed African people in Phoenix, not
all of them are arrested. Can you elaborate on that fact
Minister? Secondly, you know, the police stations such as
Amaoti do not resources to operate with, as well as the main
police station which is on Mtshebheni, which is a neighbouring
police station with Phoenix area whereby people we killed the
numbers. As a result, those people have to run back to Phoenix
where the racism is very high and they are not protected. Can
you elaborate on how many Indians so far has been arrested?
What are you doing to do to address the issue of resources in
Mtshebheni and Amaoti Minister? Thank you.
Mr D BERGMAN: Chair, on a point of order!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, in Phoenix we have
arrested criminals ... [Interjections.]
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Mr D BERGMAN: Minister please!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Let us ...
[Inaudible] ... to the point of order. Yes, what is your point
of order?
Mr D BERGMAN: Chair, just in terms of how we address people
and populations, I think we must be fair. We have Indians that
live in our population. I think we owe them a debt of respect.
I think we owe everyone a debt of respect in South Africa. If
we may please address everyone correctly and politely. Thank
you.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair. To whom are you
referring?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Wait hon
Mkhaliphi. Hon member, I have not detected any wrong so far.
Please you continue hon Minister. Hon Minister, can you
continue. Sorry about that.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the two stations that the
hon member talks about, the Mtshebheni is one station that we
have given the new station commander and working around the
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resources. The Amaoti one, which is her ward, Ward 53 where
she comes from, we had a meeting at the very last Friday in
Ethekwini and it has been agreed that we will have to work
hard that, that station in the next 12/18 months, is built and
is fully functional and it stops to be the reporting station.
So, there are things that are happening there.
In terms of arresting, we have arrested criminals there, not
African, Indian or white criminals. We have just arrested
criminals ... [Applause] ... and they will be tried as such.
If somebody sees them as the hon Mkhaliphi is saying, that is
good for them, but the police deal with criminals. We identify
them much later if we need to, but we don’t... We just look at
the criminal and deal with the criminal. Thank you.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes hon Mkhaliphi.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: I am not answered. I had specific questions
to the Minister with regards to the killings, Phoenix killings
by Indians killing black people. I asked the Minister how many
Indian thugs have been arrested so far. Can you please answer
me directly Minister?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I think
the hon Minister has answered the best he could. I think he
has answered the question and what he had said so far with
regards to that particular case is enough.
Ms S GWARUBE: Sorry, on a point of order Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon member,
what is the point of order?
Ms S GWARUBE: I think the point is that, to refer to an entire
group of people as criminals, is what we are saying is the
problem and is what we are asking you to rule on. The reality
is that; the hon member cannot talk about how Indians must be
arrested. The Minister has eloquently said that criminals must
be arrested. We are asking you to rule on the fact that we
can’t group an entire race group of people as criminals and
that that be allowed in this House. Thank you.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon
member. May I respond to hon Gwarube. Hon Gwarube ...
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, are you going to recognise my hand?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did, I did! I
will give you a chance.
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Gwarube has
raised an objection and I am addressing it. Hon Gwarube, on
the basis of what you have just said now, I will try to find
the best possible response to that. I will come back to you
with that. Hon Mkhaliphi, what is the problem?
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: No Chair, we can’t run away from the fact
that black people were killed in July by Indians. That is a
fact. So, who killed those black people in Phoenix if it was
not Indians? It is a well-known fact in South Africa that,
Indians in Phoenix killed black people. We cannot come here in
Parliament and want to pretend as if those people were not
killed by Indians. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi ...
[Interjections.]
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Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: No one can intimidate me and call a point
of order here while our black people were massacred by Indians
in Phoenix.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi! Hon
Mkhaliphi!
An HON MEMBER: Indians are also black if you didn’t know.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi! Hon
Mkhaliphi! You are ... [Inaudible.]
Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Indians are not black ...
Sesotho:
... wena semaumau.
English:
Indians are from India. That is why they ... [Inaudible] ...
you of your mentality. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!
Information technology, IT could you please remove hon
Mkhaliphi. [Interjections.]
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AN HON MEMBER: Obscured by your red overall. [Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: Chair! Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can we
please behave.
IsiZulu:
Nk N P SONTI: Uzosijwayela manje. Enzeni ama-ovaloli abomvu?
Enzeni ama-ovaloli abomvu? Niyasijwayela manje.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members
...[Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): House Chair Ntombela!
House chair Ntombela! [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
ILINGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Niyaqala manje! Niyaqala manje!
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): House Chair Ntombela
there is a point of order in the House.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes hon Singh, your
point of order.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, I don’t think that we should be
allowing this kind of racism to prevail in our Parliament and
the hon Mkhaliphi knows that. The Minister responded to the
question and the usual practise is that, when a Minister
responds we accept his answer whether we like it or not. Hon
Mkhaliphi’s father by the way is an Indian. I just want to say
hon Chair we should move on because we are satisfied with the
answer that the Minister gave. Thank you.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: No they were Indians hon Singh.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi! Is
that hon Mkhaliphi again? I had requested IT to ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chair
Ntombela!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon House
Chair I am listening.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chair
Notmbela there is a point of order from hon Radebe in the
House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay hon Radebe,
but can IT please remove hon Mkhaliphi from the platform. I
have requested that. Hon Radebe, you can go ahead.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I was going to rise on a point
of order that: (1) You have already made a ruling on this
issue.
(2) We have to revert to the Constitution of this country
that, we cannot incite racism in this country. I think we must
come back on that one. Because the member is already out of
the platform. We must come back and rule on that because
really because it will all be constitutional delinquency if
you can allow that to stand up. Thank you Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have already said
hon Radebe that those kinds of comments are totally
unacceptable. We cannot use this platform that we have to hurl
insults or racial distortions. It cannot be accepted. I have
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ruled on that hon Radebe. Can we move on? We are supposed to
be... Where are we Table? Hon Chair, where are we? It was
supposed to be the last supplementary question by hon Majozi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Majozi is next
hon House Chair.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, how many of the 12 000 new SAPS
recruits promised by President Ramaphosa in the 2022 state of
the nation address, will be deployed to KwaZulu-Natal? Please
provide full details as well as the timeline for their
deployment. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order in the House.
There is a lot of noise in the House now. Please allow the
Minister to respond.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, this hon member
likes details. Chairperson, I did answer this question
originally asked by hon Whitfield about the deployment of
these ... We said most of them in this young group will be
absorbed by these special units, that’s what I said. For
instance, at the present moment, you've got 5 500 Public Order
Policing, POP in the whole Republic of South Africa. They are
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supposed to be 12 300. So if you look at it, even the whole
7 000 can be taken by POP alone.
They have a special task force that will have to recruit the
young blood because in those units as you grow, your body
begins to tell you that you don’t belong to this unit, your
National Intervention Unit, NIU, your Tracking Response Team,
TRT. Most of this group of people ... we must remember that
you joined the SA Police Service you must be 30 and young so
that so that you were able to fit in the high intensity of
response and the work that you will be doing.
Therefore, hon member Majozi, most of them are not going to go
to the province, they are going to be absorbed on the special
units. Those will be able to respond especially the unit that
all expects are saying and we need to improve on which is POP.
As we ever have been given the leeway of training going
forward, then we’ll begin to put them on the station level and
on the provincial level. Also, the population of provinces
does determine who gets bigger share of resources. We all know
that Gauteng is the most populous province followed by
KwaZulu-Natal and Western Cape. The distribution will be
according to what the Statistics SA will be telling us soon,
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so we are able to use those numbers for distribution of
resources around the country. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon
members. Seeing that we will not have enough time for the next
category of questions, I want to announce that, the time
allocated for the questions has expired. Outstanding replies
received will be printed in Hansard. That concludes the
business for the day. The House is adjourned.
The House adjourned at 17:58.
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