Department of Police Oversight & Community Safety & WC Liquor Authority 2022/23 Annual Reports

Meeting report

The Public Accounts Committee met with the office of the Auditor-General (AG) to discuss the Departmental audit outcomes and further expand on other matters – this took place in a closed session.

When the meeting was opened for the public, the Chairperson welcomed Committee Members and all the representatives and provided a platform for questions, comments, and clarification on the annual reports.

Western Cape Department of Police Oversight and Community Safety Annual Report 2022/23

Minister Introduction

Mr Reagen Allen, Western Cape Minister of Police Oversight and Community Safety, highlighted that the year under review has shown a determination from the Department and its entities but also a determination from departmental officials. He stated that the Department is clear on community safety assessments and policing in that there are a number of officers who ensure that communities are safer. He added that the Department has showcased its 15th consecutive clean audit, which is something that is unprecedented in government. He commended and thanked the good leadership within the Department and its entities and said that they look forward to engaging the Committee.

HOD Input

Adv Yashina Pillay, Head of Department, Police Oversight and Community Safety, echoed the Minister's sentiments on the achieved clean audits. She indicated that the Department achieved 93% of its Annual Performance Plan (APP), and spent 98.9% of the budget. She said she believes the Department performed beyond the expected oversight mandate and has worked closely with the South African Police Service (SAPS) to improve service delivery and support operations. The Department also worked closely with municipalities, Neighbourhood Watchers, and Community Policing Forums (CPFs) to ensure safety throughout the province.

Western Cape Liquor Authority

Mr Ronald Kingwill, Chairperson, Western Cape Liquor Authority, stated that the current year was his 15th year reporting to the Public Accounts Committee in various forms. He asked the Chairperson if it would be possible to deal with the Western Cape Liquor Authority first, as they would have a brief discussion.

The Chairperson stated that Members are normally allowed to ask questions, and the relevant personnel would respond thereafter.

Discussions

Ms M Maseko (DA) congratulated the Department for its sustained audit outcomes.

Referring to Section C on page 110, she indicated that she would like to understand the meaning of the heading “Inadequate oversight over and support provided to the Western Cape Liquor Authority”, as this seemed like an escape route to avoid fulfilling a clause. She asked for reasons behind the heading.

She noted that the liquor board has been underspending for two years, yet the Department was still allocating more funds to it. She asked why funds were still allocated as history illustrated that funds were not being spent.

She also raised concerns about unspent grants from the Department of Community Safety. She said there was an indication that a grant had been received and the money had not been utilised due to the initiation of a client services centre project. She wanted to find out why the grant had not been utilised.

Mr I Sileku (DA) asked what was next level for the Department after the 15th achieved a clean, unqualified audit.

He said that one of the reasons for underspending was the slow filling of vacancies and in the current economic climate where the Minister of Finance has been vocal in stating that there was a need for budget cuts, he asked if there would be changes in the filling of vacancies.

Highlighting page 109, he said that risk number one was one of the key strategic risks considered and addressed. He asked if the Department would be able to mitigate the highlighted risk in the midst of the budget cuts. He said that one of the statements the Department of the Premier shared was that inadequate financial resources are the highest risks faced by the province and the country as a whole. In the midst of the financial challenges, he asked if the risks that had been addressed in the current year would also be addressed in the following year.  

On page 111, he said that he viewed the staff and officials as assets of the Department. He discussed the safety of departmental staff working in high-risk areas and highlighted that during the taxi violence there were officials who had lost their lives but there has not been any indication of those who committed such crimes. He asked if the Department would confirm the measures taken to ensure the safety of staff in high-risk areas and whether these are adequate.

On page 113, he mentioned that there are steps undertaken during investigations, and asked if any cases led to staff members being dismissed. He asked for the details of the cases.

On page 115, under health and safety environment issues, he highlighted that housekeeping hazards had been identified and asked what was being done to address such risks and whether the Department was working to ensure fire extinguishers were accessible.

On page 172, which addressed the late and non-payment of suppliers - he asked for specifics that led to late payments to a supplier, whether it was a system or a human error. If it was a human error, he asked what the Department learned, how the issue had been dealt with, and if it was a system error, what led to the problem, and how it was dealt with.

Ms N Nkondlo (ANC), referring to departmental governance Part C when key strategic risks are considered, highlighted on page 111 the Department's limited abilities to effectively monitor police conduct. She asked for an explanation of how the Department would reorganise itself to be able to take on the function of oversight while considering the budget and human resources. She asked if there would be an increase in functions or whether there was an expansion of a particular programme and what were the budget implications for such.

Under Risk Four on the limited ability of policing resources, she said that she was unsure of the extent to which the Department’s inter-governmental relations function optimally. She highlighted inter-governmental relations between the Department, the national department, and municipalities and indicated that they become an important relationship in delivering on the set mandates.

She highlighted the underspending on compensation of employees (CoE) and goods and services. She added that what is normally raised by the House is the number of police personnel versus the population size. In terms of the current complement in the Department, she asked if this was appropriate to the activities to be undertaken. She said that she was raising the issue in context to an underspending in CoE which is something that the Committee sees across departments. It raises concerns when service delivery departments are involved.

She asked for clarity on the underspending of Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP) funds and the challenges encountered.

On pages 238 and 239, she highlighted that the West Coast spent 4% of its allocations and the K9 Unit managed to spend allocated funds successfully. She asked for an explanation of the challenges faced when it comes to spending funds and the implications seen on service delivery.

On page 239, she said that the City of Cape Town, in terms of the Law Enforcement Advancement Plan (LEAP), would have previously received about R165 million which was three times that of the 2022/23 allocation. She noted an underspending with only 69% of the fund being utilised. She said she was interested as to why funds were still being allocated when there was underspending.

Referring to school resource officers, she inquired about the number of schools involved, how many officers are allocated per school, and what has been the effectiveness of the programme.

On page 241, she asked about the criteria used to allocate resources to the Neighbourhood Watches and Community Policing Forums and the numbers involved in the budget.

Ms Maseko indicated that she had a question on page 122 on the 8.2 resolution. She asked the Department to unpack the discontinuation of the LEAP.

Minister Allen said he would give a broad overview of the posed questions and the officials would elaborate further. He indicated that the LEAF programme had been budgeted for and allocated over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) until the 2025/2026 financial year. He said that this is a step up for the Western Cape government, and as such, resulted in additional funding allocation. He stated that the Department would continue to advocate for funding because an internal independent assessment showed that the programme is working. He highlighted that across the country, there is an increase in the murder rate, while it is evident that within the province, the numbers are stabilising. He added that in priority areas, seven out of 13 areas are seeing reductions. He said the Department would appreciate support from Committee Members to continue advocating that LEAP should be budgeted for.

Considering the budgets between CPFs and Neighbourhood Watches, he said he did not want any stakeholders to be treated differently. He indicated that there are 151 CPFs and over 500 accredited Neighbourhood Watches within the province which shows a huge discrepancy. He confirmed R12.7 million had been allocated to the CPFs via the National Minister and some of the funds have already reached some CPFs, especially in priority areas. He added that the Department would give the specifics.

He said that underspending was a matter that was consistently being looked into.

Highlighting page 195, he said that the R3.8 million EPWP allocation came from the Public Works National office and is topped up by the Department by approximately an extra R30 million as it is important that young people have access to opportunities. 

Addressing the question of adequate budget, he said that he was saddened, less than two months ago, when there was a benchmark assessment with colleagues in KwaZulu-Natal, when he found out that the province had an allocated budget of R250 million to do the same work as the Western Cape province. He added that he wanted the Department to always have more money so that it could be given to CPFs and Neighbourhood Watches. He indicated that it was difficult to say that the budget is appropriate considering the need that the Department is exposed to, however, benchmarking the Western Cape to other provinces, it is evident that money is being allocated very differently compared to other provinces.

Minister Allen also raised concerns about inter-governmental relations, noting that the City of Cape Town has reported a stronger working relationship with the South African Police Service (SAPS). He stated that he did not attribute the change to him being appointed a year ago, but noted that difficult conversations had been conducted and inter-governmental relations were being monitored.

He stated that for the first time in the province, a briefing happens every quarter because, as a government, the Department wants to take responsibility and ensure better service delivery. He added that he would take received feedback to the senior management team to look at intergovernmental relations.

In terms of expanding functions, Minister Allen stated that National policing is the responsibility of the National Minister, as contained in the Constitution. The Department is currently engaging the civilian secretariat to undertake provincial policy assessments and engagements. This will be part of the assessment to see how functions can be expanded in terms of the national policing policy.

Referring to the question on the limitations and oversight, he said that Section 19 of the Community Safety Act provides the Department with leg work to engage with SAPS and obtain relevant information. This has paved the way to ensure that the Department can take oversight further, which has led to conversations and engagements with the SAPS. However, the limitations are that the Department does not have the executive Authority to institute a measure such as disciplinary action and one of the functions that can easily be allocated to a provincial government is the function of the disciplinary processes because there has been a breakdown of internal disciplinary processes within SAPS. He said that officers have stated that they go into such processes unprepared and no consequences are realised, and this occurs throughout the country. He said that a function in terms of the Constitution section 206 (4) (c) can be attributed and allocated to expand oversight. He added that the Department did not want to merely slam the SAPS but wanted to see how to strengthen the arm of the SAPS which is accomplished through various means and there is steady progress.

Regarding the Occupational Health and Safety (OHS), he confirmed that the recent assessment has shown considerable improvements. He said that the safety of staff across nursing, and social development is a big problem and the Department has drafted a policy on how matters need to be addressed. This has featured in Cabinet in the past three months because it was raised by the Departments of Health and Social Development.

He mentioned that the officials present disliked him the most because the Department has stretched itself and reprioritised within the current budget.

He highlighted that the current laws in the country, and inadequate oversights lead back to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Amendment Bill. He said the Department would love section 206 (4) (c), where functions can be allocated, to expand oversight.

Addressing Mr Sileku’s question on what was next after the 15th clean audit, he replied that a 16th clean audit was next.  

Adv Pillay said that clean audits do not mean that the Department has arrived, as there is still work that needs to be done. She said that these clean audits need to translate to excellent service delivery and this mandate is taken very seriously.

Regarding Risk One, which speaks about the oversight mandate, she said that budgetary cuts would impact it. She said that the Department would like to assess every police station each year and also do post-monitoring so that it can be ensured that the recommendations posed to SAPS and municipal police services are implemented. She explained that these cuts mean that certain police stations need to be prioritised which would mean that staff members would be impacted as there would need to be few of them. She mentioned that the first containment measures, which have already been given, such as cutting the budget of R55 million would have serious implications. She added that the budget, in the past years, has only increased by 2%, however, they are doing more with less.

In terms of the safety of staff, she indicated that this was taken very seriously considering that there are frontline security officers and security personnel. She said the Department has a standard operating procedure in place so that if any situation becomes volatile, such individuals are withdrawn from the situation. Together with the Department of the Premier, the Department has been tasked to develop a policy for the safety of staff for the Western Cape province. A concept has already been developed, presented, and tabled at Cabinet.

There was also a proposal that a Provincial Command Centre be set up where it would be ensured that when there are incidents of unrest, taxi violence, and incidents where staff members are affected it would be possible to ensure that there is appropriate and immediate response by any law enforcement agency. 

In relation to the Western Cape Liquor Authority and the inadequate oversight, she said the wording needed to be relooked because there is effective oversight. However, there was a decision taken by the Provincial Treasury that the liquor board needed to be self-sustainable. In this regard, any increase in liquor license fees would need to be agreed on by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Police Oversight and Community Safety. She said it was difficult in the current economic climate to be able to get increases that are required to ensure that the liquor authority is self-sustainable.

In terms of the cases referred to, she said there were no dismissals and one matter was concerning the bid rigging or cover quoting, where there was a single company with different names. The other cases were related to nepotism, where an employee resigned, another matter was unsubstantiated, and another was related to procurement issues.

On page 172, where it was indicated that payments had not been made timeously, she said that was to the GMT. She indicated that there had been a misunderstanding when timeous payments were considered; the Department did not consider a government entity that had to be paid. The Auditor-General of South Africa (AGSA) found that the Department, on average, made payments in five days, however, the GMT payments were not made timeously because reconciliations were not done. 

She clarified that all fire exits were clear, that the OHS audit had been done and the Department is fully compliant. All hazards have been addressed and an emergency evacuation drill has been conducted. 

Regarding the CoE complement in underspent, she said it was important to attract the right personnel. She said there were two vacant senior management services (SMS) that had been vacant since 2021 and after interviews, the right people were not found. She added that one post is currently at a shortlisting stage and the other is at the interview stage and the hope is that the right people are attracted.

Addressing the EPWP underspend, she said that a grant of R3.8 million is received from the national government but the total amounts to R34 million because the Department also adds on top because work opportunities for the youth are prioritised. She clarified that the underspending is linked to the fact that some of the beneficiaries are employed permanently, which is encouraged. In the previous year, a pre-payment was made to a service provider to enable stipends to be paid and this led to an underspending in the current financial year.

Regarding the CPFs and Neighbourhood Watches, she said that approximately R900 000 and R990 000 have been allocated, respectively.

Referring to grant underspending, she stated that the municipal financial years are not aligned to the Department’s own as they still have until the end of June to spend money. She said this was being addressed and plans were in place to ensure that money from the Department is transferred by July to give municipalities enough time to spend the allocated funds. She gave an example that the rollover request had been denied in the West Coast District Municipality because no funds were committed for specific projects. The LEAP underspending amounted to R377 million, but municipalities typically spend in the last three months of their financial year as indicated.

Mr David Coetzee, Chief Director of the Secretariat: Safety and Security, said that the Department of Education has an agreement with the City of Cape Town to deploy officers and the indicated R2.8 million is what the Department contributes to the training of the school resource officers, and the total number of schools was more than 41. He indicated that a security risk management was developed as a risk rating tool, where schools are risk-rated, and based on the risk it is determined whether they qualify to have a school resource officer. In terms of effectiveness, he said that school principals have indicated that they cannot function without the school resources officers and more are infact needed. He said that the programme is aligned with LEAP and the same commanders that manage LEAP also assist. He said that the Department of Education was assisted because more LEAP officers could be placed in various schools which also assists with the training.

Western Cape Liquor AuthorityAnnual Report 2022/23

Mr Simion George, Chief Executive Officer, Western Cape Liquor Authority, said that the budget towards the Western Cape Liquor Authority shows an allocation at the beginning of the financial year and then there is a request for retention of some funds, an appropriation Bill and the ultimate budget. He said he wanted to draw attention to the fact that the budget, after adjustments, ultimately becomes larger. Initially, The budget is always responsive to operations; therefore, the entity seldom drives projects based on allocations that basically cover operational costs. When strategies were aligned closer to the strategy of the Western Cape government, the entity was able to hewn in allocations made for an outcome as far as strategic operations are concerned. He pointed out that initially, the project around the extension of the entity’s capacity to inspect premises was a project funded based on that principle. He indicated that this means that there is an additional allocation and an adjustment made. He said that he was trying to paint a picture that reflects the reality concerning the Western Cape Liquor Authority budget as it has been over the past years.

Mr Selwyn Adams, Acting Chief Financial Officer, Western Cape Liquor Authority, said that in the prior year, there was an underspending of R19.1 million and in the current year, it was R5.5 million.

He stated that page 115 gives a breakdown of how the budget was utilised, and in terms of the current year, the amounts relate to the walk-in centre. In the previous year, a rollover had been requested due to specific projects, one being the walk-in centre but the project preceding this was the online platform. He indicated that the online platform project was successfully implemented and subsequently, the walk-in centre needed to be rolled out. However, during the 2023 implementation year, there was a change of building ownership which caused delays and the funds could not be used. The other portion of the R5.5 million relates to the additional inspection project and the funds could not be retained but had to be returned back. He said that the Western Cape Liquor Authority improved in its budget spending compared to prior years and the only underspending is rollover funding which will be returned. He said they still needed funding for the walk-in centre and a request had been made.

Further Discussions

The Chairperson allowed Ms R Windvogel (ANC), who joined the meeting virtually, an opportunity to ask a question.

Ms Maseko raised a point of order and said that it was clear that the engagement was in person and any Member who wanted to ask questions needed to be physically present.

The Chairperson clarified that in the beginning, he indicated that those who joined the meeting online would also be given an opportunity to engage.

Ms Windvogel said her question on page 113 was partly covered and answered. She asked the Department to indicate the updates concerning the case opened with SAPS.

The Chairperson asked Ms Windvogel to repeat her question as the Minister and the HOD did not hear properly.

Ms Maseko asked to continue with her point of order.

The Chairperson said that he had decided to allow Ms Windvogel to ask her question.

On page 121, point of reference 4.3, Ms Windvogel asked about the measures put in place to improve accountability over the safety plan because millions are transferred to the city but the Committee never receives any feedback from municipalities. She asked how these municipalities can be made to submit quarterly and annual reports to the Department and come and account before the Committee on the funds.

On page 168, Part E, she asked for more details from the Department about the irregular expenditure, what the money was spent on, and why the Provincial Treasury Condonement Working Committee felt that the mentioned was not an irregular expenditure.

The Chairperson requested that if Ms Windvogel wanted to be involved in the meetings, she should attend in person and added that requests such as hers would not be entertained in upcoming meetings.

Mr G Bosman (DA) asked why the link to the meeting was sent to some Members because the calendar request stated that the meeting would take place in person and not virtually. He asked why some Members were exempted from physically attending while others had been provided with a link.

The Chairperson stated that as far as he was concerned, there was no link made available to any Member and that he did not know how a Member got hold of the link to the meeting.

Mr Sileku asked the Western Cape Liquor Authority about the measures put in place to ensure the entity becomes self-sustainable. He asked how the entity would be able to make sure that becoming self-sustainable does not limit new entrances in terms of getting licenses, as there might be a possibility of fee increases.  

Ms Nkondlo asked about the continuation of the LEAP programme, which was confirmed by the Minister. She raised concerns about the looming cuts by National Treasury and the upcoming national elections and said that the risk to the programme is that the biggest budget comes from the province. She asked for confirmation on whether the programme would still continue in the following year.

Referring to the Western Cape Liquor Authority, she said that the AGSA, in its briefing to the Committee, mentioned the audited tribunal programme which only achieved 60% of its target and spent 91% of its budget. She indicated that on page 122, one of the increased spending was on computer and equipment support; she stated that she wanted to understand how the tribunal programme benefited from such. She asked if there were sufficient systems in place to assist the tribunal in dealing with complex application processes that lead to delays.

Highlighting the stated risks, she asked whether licensees are affected in terms of revenue collection considering the current economic climate.

On the same page, she asked what the stated consulting and professional services for key projects referred to. She added that she needed clarity on the increases indicated under the catering budget.

She asked what was meant by social and education funds which decreased drastically from the previous year.

On page 124, under contingencies, she asked whether the stated case was concluded.  

She highlighted that there were contributions received and asked what these were for.

On page 125, she asked what the R9.1 million received was for.

Mr Sileku highlighted that on the SCOPA briefing note, it was stated that additional funding was allocated to the Western Cape Liquor Authority to bolster the enforcement unit. He said that instead of boosting the enforcement unit, vacancies were not filled and as a result, costs were saved. He asked whether the entity’s enforcement unit is fully capacitated, and if so, why was there a funding request.

Minister Allen said that the questions posed by Ms Windvogel had been fully ventilated during the previous responses.

He said that a three-year cycle for planning and funding is set out via national and provincial governments, and he confirmed that the LEAP funding has been earmarked for the MTEF period ending 2025/2026. He clarified that the elections would not have any impacts as these are over the MTEF period. He said that the Department is aware of the cost-containment measures, which was worrisome, considering that shrinking budgets can affect service delivery. He said that he would want to play “open cards” with the House and say that LEAP has been budgeted for, however, even if he comes back and indicates that due to the cost containments there had to be cuts, he wants to come and show results as influenced by specific reasons.

Adv Pillay said that the case opened with SAPS was currently being investigated and there is no outcome as yet. This was in reference to the case of bid rigging and cover quoting.

In terms of LEAP, she said that the municipalities would not be able to account before this Committee as they have their own structures in place. However, the Department would be able to provide the necessary information which emanates from its own monitoring of the programme.

She said that the R3 000 question had been answered, however, she would answer again. The official departmental employee was unable to attend training but was able to do so at a later stage. Out of caution, this was submitted as an irregular expenditure and because the employee went through the training, the amount was not regarded as wasteful and was not condoned and removed.

She added that, as mentioned by the Minister, should there be cost containment measures, there would need to be cuts but not to the rendition of the project. She added that they were hopeful that 1000 LEAP officers would be on the ground.

Mr Coetzee said that under the self-sustainability issue, there was context being missed. He said that the revenue that the Western Cape Liquor Authority receives through the Department of Community Safety (DoCS), the Department more than collects that amount from liquor licenses. When referring to self-sustainability, he said that this was around the bigger role and responsibility of the Authority as it has to deal with harms reduction. In this regard, a differentiated pricing policy is being introduced which requires legal amendments to the Act to allow the Department to gather information to differentiate between small entity liquor license holders versus bigger entities who pay similar license prices. He clarified that entities that achieve huge turnovers need to contribute more towards activities by the Western Cape Liquor Authority. He stated that self-sustainability is the Department's efforts in approaching the increase in licenses until legislation is passed to provide funds at a greater than Cost Price Index (CPI) level.

Mr George said that he would explain the matter on the Liquor Licencing Tribunal (LLT) performance, specifically around the target of 60% being met. He stated that all applications are processed in terms of specific standard operating procedures and timelines are adhered to in that regard. Once applications are before the LLT, the complexity referred to is one of consideration and not so much that of processing. He gave an example that when there is a highly contested space around a particular license, communities then come into an uproar and there are a lot of interventions that happen and in such a case, the LLT would want to apply its mind properly. He said that the Act is very specific and requires the LLT to be satisfied that the granting of a license will serve the public interest, and if it does not, then it is in contravention of the Act. He stated that it needed to be noted that the LLT tries to prevent applicants from being dismissed from the first hearing because this would be one way to deal with the problem.

He said that over the years, the board has monitored this particular target, which was referred to as backlogs in the past. However, once the figures had been unpacked in greater detail and why the postponement happened, the board became satisfied that public interest was crucial.

Regarding the risks around increasing fees, he said that the trend that is being seen is that of consistent growth in the number of licenses being granted. He added that with received applications, more than 90% are still favourably considered which suggests that more licenses are successful in their application.

In terms of the industry of the sector, he said that the COVID-19 pandemic demonstrated that the industry is extremely resilient.

Mr Adams highlighted the expenditure on page 122 and stated that an architect had been appointed to design a walk-in centre, and for the online platform, consultation services were used. 

He said that the increase in funding under computer and equipment support is due to a service-centric approach and to allow license holders to enhance their experience with the liquor authority. The online platform offers license holders a platform where they can automatically renew their licenses.

On social and education funds, he said that the entity partners with municipalities to spread the message in terms of social harms.

He indicated that post-COVID-19, there have been trainings, seminars, and board and committee meetings held in person; this is why there is an increase in catering expenditure.

He said that the R9.1 million was related to the additional inspectorate when it was a pilot project but has since been baselined.

Mr George said that the cases inquired about remain pending. The entity is currently consulting with the council and the matter has been pushed to get an outcome.

Concerning the social and education fund, he mentioned that the Act specifically makes reference to a fund. The Act indicates that the idea is to mitigate social harms and ills concerning a clear dedicated fund that speaks to education and awareness programmes. The Act is also purposed to access funds from sources other than within the organisation. He indicated that the shift over the years with the adoption and integration of alcohol harms reduction means that the entity is positioned increasingly in terms of furthering harms reduction by facilitating public interest in a specific way.

He explained that the increased catering costs were due to the meetings held to engage key strategic partners who would be legislated partners.

He stated that the entity needs to work with the Designated Liquor Officers (DLOs) which are the SAPS and municipal services, and the South African Local Government Association (SALGA). He said that as an entity, they have travelled all over the Western Cape, with the exception of the City of Cape Town, and have brought the visited municipalities on board in terms of the processes. He added that the advantage was that the entity was able to insert itself within each of the municipal areas, and problem statements were being developed as well as a synergy that enables the entity to strengthen its partners.

He clarified that there was no budget for the extension of the inspectorate and that the funds used, in the region of R10 million, came from a project proposal presented. He said that for the Authority to be effective, every licensed premise needed to be inspected at least once a year to be able to implement the provisions of the Act. He mentioned that the entity was not granted a functional structure but managed to succeed over the last ten years despite this limitation.

Ms Nkondlo asked the Western Cape Liquor Authority who is responsible for the implementation of the alcohol harms reduction policy and its recommendations and how it is funded. She said that the issue of the location of the liquor authority will always be an interesting topic and that the Minister should make the time to engage.

Minister Allen said that when it comes to the White Paper, specific processes are followed and when it is concluded and the executive in the province has adopted it, it is then published. He explained that if it is a policy imperative, it is bound to stand, and if the policy imperative in the Western Cape requires all entities within government to reflect on the White Paper, then that is what happens.

He said that social development has a clear indication of what needs to be done to further alcohol harms reduction. The Department then contributes to compliance and the inspectorate, and this is a clear mandate that needs to be pursued. He said that the policy also requires the Department to collaborate with other agencies and to consider the public interest, where determinations are facilitated by the Department and are acted upon by the liquor licensing tribunal.

He stated that the Department wants to do away with adverts that do not reach the target audience and that incomplete applications were not accepted.

Mr George said that the entity wants to give an assurance that public interest is first and foremost because they would not want alcohol to contribute to a lack of safety. He added that the entity is open to having the conversation.

The Chairperson asked the Minister how the economic transformation has advanced and progress on job creation. 

Minister Allen said that young people are a priority and are placed within an EPWP opportunity every year. A number, about 900 youths, then take up job opportunities within SAPS.

He said that the Western Cape government is currently working on social cohesion, and that the safety plan provides and indicates that each department in the Western Cape is responsible for social cohesion.

He mentioned that he was perturbed that incorrect information appeared online and asked to read it. It read as follows; “The Western Cape government Department of Community Police Oversight and Community Safety gives over R7 million for Neighbourhood Watchers and only gives CPFs R900 000. This is against national policy. This exposes underfunding to CPFs and DA double standards.”

He said that this was incorrect and goes against the spirit of what the Department speaks on when setting a certain narrative in the public domain. He said that as the CPFs get hold of such information, it breaks down the work being done. He indicated that the Department would go to Mitchells Plain to have more engagements.

The Chairperson said that Mr Allen has to deal with the matter offline as it did not involve the Committee and as the Committee, they steered away from such issues.

He thanked the Minister, the Department, and all the delegations for being available. He mentioned that when the Committee embarks on such meetings and asks questions, it is not to catch them up but to enrich their knowledge and that of the community they serve.

He apologised for the incident earlier and said that the Committee does not normally conduct meetings in such a manner, however, he was glad that the meeting could continue.

[The meeting was adjourned]