Implementation of Public Protector recommendations: Committee Report; DSAC Q2&3 Performance; with Minister and Deputy Minister

Meeting report

Opening remarks

The Chairperson welcomed all Members back from the recess and opened the meeting by acknowledging the importance of Freedom Month, and those who bravely fought against the apartheid regime and lost their lives. Special mention of remembrance was given to Solomon Mahlangu and Chris Hani, and the sacrifices made for freedom. She welcomed the Minister, thanked him for attending the meeting and acknowledged his positive efforts all over the country.

Dr Cynthia Khumalo, Acting Director-General, Department of Sports, Arts and Culture (DSAC), began briefing the Committee but was interrupted by Mr T Mhlongo (DA), who argued that the agenda needed to be adopted for the sake of following procedure.

The Chairperson noted this, and asked the Director-General (DG) to proceed with the introductions and apologies. No apologies were received for the meeting.

During the adoption of the agenda, Mr Mhlongo requested that the item, “Consideration and Adoption of the Draft 2nd Term Committee Programme”, be set aside and addressed on a different day. Members were usually sent the draft agenda before the Committee met, so they were encouraged to reach out to the office to ensure that all suggestions or grievances were noted.

Ms R Adams (ANC) was against this proposal, and moved for the adoption of the agenda.

Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture, Zizi Kodwa, notified the Committee of an urgent matter that required his attention, and said he would need to be excused at 12:00pm.

Mr D Joseph (DA) said that he and his fellow party Members had submitted their suggestions and changes, but these had not been included in the agenda presented. The concern was that if the agenda was adopted in its current form, the amendments submitted would be ignored.

Ms V van Dyk (DA) concurred with the sentiments voiced by Mr Joseph, as her suggestions submitted for the programme had not been included.

Ms V Malomane (ANC) seconded the adoption of the agenda as presented.

The agenda was officially adopted.                                                                                    

DSAC's second quarter performance

Minister Kodwa introduced the delegation from the Department, and invited DG Khumalo to begin with the presentation.

Mr Mhlongo interjected, and asked if the Committee would have an opportunity to engage with the Minister before he was excused.

The Chairperson replied that it could be allowed if the meeting was able to continue smoothly and adhere to the designated times allocated for each item.

Dr Khumalo said the report had been submitted by the stipulated deadline on 14 April. The purpose of this presentation was to report on DSAC's performance during the second quarter and the progress made during the period of 1 July to 30 September 2022. This included the challenges confronting the Department in its pursuit of the 2022/23 financial year targets. Of the 28 targets that needed to be reached by the end of September 2022, 25 (89%) had been achieved. The three targets not achieved were the number of izimbizos held, the number of moral regeneration projects supported by the government, and the number of students awarded with heritage bursaries per year.

These issues were discussed in greater detail during the overview of programme-specific performances.

Programme 1:  Administration

This programme provides strategic leadership, management and support services to the Department. This includes various sub-programmes that collectively assist the Department with its planning by offering expert knowledge, professional advice, and effective internal controls. Two of the three targets had been achieved.

Dr Khumalo said that for this programme, several performance indicators were not due to be reported on during the stipulated time frame. Those were:

• The percentage of interns enrolled against funded posts;
• The number of prioritised manual services modernised;
• The number of sports, arts and culture (SAC) awareness campaigns activated to profile the work of the Department; and
• The number of Izimbizos held.

She commented that four Izimbizos were held, but the reports received were inadequate to support the reported performance.

The targets that were achieved during the second quarter for the percentage of invoices paid within 30 days, and the percentage of councils/boards that were fully constituted.

Programme 2: Recreation, development and sport promotion

This programme supported the provision of mass participation opportunities, the development of elite athletes, and the regulation and maintenance of facilities. It also included sub-programmes such as 'Winning Nation,' 'Active Nation,' and infrastructure support. All eight targets were achieved, and in some cases overachievement was noticed, with the reasons for the deviation provided.

(See document).

Programme 3: Arts and Culture Development and Promotion

This programme focused on developing arts, culture and languages, as well as the implementation of the national social cohesion strategy. The programme was comprised of five sub-programmes:

• National language services;

• Cultural and creative industries development;
• International cooperation;
• Social cohesion and nation building; and
• Mzansi Golden Academy

Eight of the nine targets were achieved (89%). However, a large percentage of these targets’ performance indicators, or rather nine out of the 19, were not due to be reported on when drawing these conclusions.

(Refer to slides for further details.)

The target not achieved was the number of moral regeneration projects supported by the government. The four projects set out to be achieved were ethical leadership, charter of positive values, gender-based violence and femicide (GBVF), and the Youth Month Dialogue. The reason provided for not achieving this target was that the planned financial support was made outside the reporting period stipulated in the signed Memorandum of Agreement (MOA). Despite the submission date being 3 August, it was received on 18 October due to delays in reporting compliance by the Moral Regeneration Movement (MRM). The corrective action presented stated that there would be further engagements with MRM to reiterate the importance of submitting reports on time to ensure that the Department could process payments before the end of each quarter.

Programme 4: Heritage Promotion and Preservation

The purpose of this programmes was to preserve and promote South African heritage, including archival and heraldic heritage, and to oversee and transfer funds to libraries. It housed the sub-programmes for heritage promotion, national archives services, and public library services.

Seven of the eight targets were reached, with the one not achieved being the number of students awarded with heritage bursaries. The reason was that the 2022/23 financial year was the first time the Department had implemented the Heritage Bursaries through a three-year MOA with universities, so there had been delays during the finalisation of the compliance documentation. However, the Department followed up regularly with the universities to expedite the signing of the MOAs and ensure that all complying universities would be paid by 30 November 2022. It was also noted that two performance indicators did not require any reporting, and seven were successful.

(See document attached).

Financial performance report

Mr Israel Mokgwamme, Acting Chief Financial Officer (CFO), said the Department had spent a total of R2.8 billion as at 30 September, which represented 44.2% against a budget of R63 billion. The Department had projected to spend R3.2 billion (51.0%) of its budget by the end of the quarter, which had led to an under-spending of R433.5 million (6.9%) against the projections. There was a clear issue of underspending of funds due to procedural delays.

Mr Mokgwamme provided more details on each programme, and also outlined the various reasons for the large under-spending of Departmental funds.

(See document attached).

DSAC's third quarter performance

The third quarter performance report described the progress made during the period 1 October to 31 December 2022, including the challenges confronting the Department in its pursuit of the 2022/23 financial year targets as outlined in the Department's APP. The Department had planned to implement and achieve 29 performance targets during the third quarter reporting period, but only 23 had been achieved.

Programme 1:  Administration

100% of the targets were achieved during the quarter.

Programme 2: Recreation, development and sport promotion

Five of the eight targets (62.5%) were achieved. Those not achieved were:

• The number of people actively participating in organised sport and active recreation events.
• The number of learners in the national school sport championships per year; and
• The number of learners participating in the district school sports tournaments.

Programme 3: Arts and culture development and promotion

Ten of the 12 targets were achieved. The two not achieved were the number of monitoring reports on implementing a social compact for social cohesion and nation building, and the number of projects in the creative industry supported through the Mzansi Golden Economy Programme.

Programme 4: Heritage promotion and preservation                   

Five of the six targets were achieved, the exception being the number of records digitised.

(See document attached for why targets were not met, and the corrective actions taken).

Financial performance report

Overall spending had reached R4.6 billion (73.3%) against the adjusted appropriation of R6.3 billion as at 31 December. The Department had projected to spend R4.9 billion (78.4%) of its budget by the end of the quarter, which meant an under-spending of R325,8 million (5.2%) against the projection.

(See document attached for in-depth expenditure analysis).

Discussion

Mr Mhlongo voiced his concerns regarding the under-achievement and under-spending of the Departmental budget. Speaking directly to the Chairperson, he said something was not right, as they should not present two quarterly reports in one meeting. It negatively impacted the monitoring, evaluation and oversight process the Members were responsible for. It had been recommended that the quarterly reports should be presented and evaluated quarterly, which the Department had failed to achieve.

He thanked the Minister for his initiatives, but said it was unfortunate that the Department failed to achieve its school sports targets. For school sports to succeed, they needed to be implemented at the grassroots level, and all targets set needed to be achieved.

Mr Mhlongo raised his concerns over the vacancies and under-spending within the Department, especially because the unemployment rate in the country was so high. Regarding the sports awards, he asked the Minister why these awards had been moved to a later time, and what the total amount spent on the event this year had been. Due to the extravagance involved, the event had looked like a fiscal dumping exercise which had taken place long before the end of the financial year. He asked the Department if the event was in fact fiscal dumping and if so, to provide a reason for this.

Looking at both quarterly reports, he said it was not impressive when the Department sets low target numbers, and achieves beyond them.

Lastly, he said that the Mzansi Orchestra had a chief executive officer (CEO) who was the Deputy Chair of the National Arts Council (NAC) and held a position in the KwaZulu-Natal Orchestra. He asked the Minister if he did not see this as a conflict of interest.

The Chairperson reminded Members to be conscious of the time when asking questions.

Mr M Zondi (ANC) thanked the Minister for launching the School Sports Programme. It had been highly anticipated, and as it was only the first year, not as many districts had participated as was hoped. He said that this initiative would assist the efforts to reduce crime in black townships.

Referring to Programme 1 in the second quarter, and the Izimbizo not achieved, he asked that further clarity be provided on why the reports were inadequate to support the reported performance. Could the Department provide insight into the factors behind the under and over-spending of the budgets? Lastly, he asked that the Department share which sports federations had not submitted the required compliance documentation.

Ms D Sibiya (ANC) referred to the moral regeneration projects, and wanted to know the challenges that had led to the delays in reporting compliance. She asked if there had been any incidents of sexual abuse reported in the last five years and if so, what action had been taken. She questioned what the current vacancy rate for employee turnover was. Lastly, she asked what the actual amount had been that the Department had invested in women’s boxing.

Mr D Joseph (DA) acknowledged the programmes where 100% had been achieved. Looking at the Izimbizos and the moral regeneration projects in the second quarter, he agreed that these were national issues where the Department needed to promote social cohesion. He asked why there seemed to be a lack of attention paid to these national issues, and whether it was a time management issue or a planning problem. He asked if clarity could be provided on the number of students who had received heritage bursaries, and whether these and the language practitioners’ bursaries were the same thing. He commended the targets achieved in Programme One in the third quarter, and queried whether there was any outstanding work after the amalgamation of the two departments.

Looking at social cohesion and nation-building, he asked whether the Department would remove the target. Could the Department not identify a national target and invest in it?

Lastly, he asked that more clarity be provided on the Heritage Promotion Preservation programme, and what was included in the definition of the standardisation of geographical names.

Mr B Madlingozi (EFF) agreed with Mr Mhlongo that there was too much content to deal with in one meeting, which was not rendering the Committee effective when conducting oversight. He thanked the Minister for looking out for young black children and ensuring that they were the flames of the future. He said that the Department was not using money effectively, as large amounts were being returned to Treasury.

Ms V van Dyk (DA) asked if the Committee could be provided with an update on the issue of non-achievement by learners in the National School Sport Championships, and that the funding model be made available to the Committee. She also questioned why adequate funds were not made available to all provinces. Regarding recreation development and sport promotion, she asked how the Department planned to address the issue, and whether the agreement of the MOA between the Department of Education and the DSAC had ever been implemented. If not, she asked that the Department provide reasons as to why.

Referring to the failure of beneficiaries to comply with reporting requirements, she asked if the Department could release the names of the beneficiaries and how much funding each one received. She said that those who did not comply could not be blacklisted and should rather pay the money back if it was not used for its intended purpose. Referring to slide 58, where it noted that the Minister granted approval for the archeophones (machines used for digitising dictabelts) to be taken to France in February for repairs, she asked how they were transported, whether they were taken by someone personally, how long they took to repair and the cost implications. She also asked that further clarity be provided on the office accommodation budget.

Looking at the third quarter report, which stated that the Department had made an unscheduled transfer to the South African State Theatre, she asked that further clarification be provided on the matter. She agreed with Mr Mhlongo that there were major issues with the Mzansi Philharmonic Orchestra.

Ms R Adams (ANC) referred to the second quarter, and asked what percentage of the unspent funds had been planned for the initiatives. Could the Department provide a report on the vacancy rate in the second quarter performance report? She asked for clarity on the issues involving public libraries and the financial budget.

The Chairperson said that during the current financial year, it was important that the youth and GBVF were prioritised.

She stated that being briefed on two quarters in one meeting was in fact allowed. She asked the Minister if he would take questions before leaving the meeting.

DSAC's response

Minister Kodwa, responding to the issues directed to him, said that the Department had had engagements with the National Arts Council (NAC); they had confirmed that despite facing various challenges, the structure was in fact act working. However, the Department would be meeting the Council soon to discuss a way forward. The only meeting outstanding was the Mzansi Orchestra, because when they had met previously, not all members of the board had been in attendance.

On the matter of the Soweto Swimming Club, he said that there had not been much feedback, but when there was an update, Members of the Committee would be informed. The Department had met with the South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee (SASCOC), but the meeting had not been long enough to discuss the issues surrounding transformation shelter targets. There had been progress and regression within certain federations, but the Department hoped to meet with SASCOC soon to discuss these matters. Several international and domestic events had kept the Department occupied and delayed these necessary meetings.

The Minister agreed with Mr Mhlongo and Mr Madlingozi on the importance of school sport. He said most successful economic and sporting nations used sport, arts and culture as an economic driver. South Africa had not successfully exploited the endowment available to ensure economic recovery.

Lastly, concern had been raised about the number of vacancies that had not yet been filled. The President had had bilateral meetings with Ministers to discuss this issue. It was known that the DSAC still did not have a Director General, and there was now a directive for all departments and Ministers in terms of Regulation 657. The Regulation states that a funded vacant post shall be advertised within six months and filled within 12 months. The post of Director-General would be advertised soon, as well as other vacancies. The Minister said that the projects that the Department was supporting needed to have increased oversight to ensure that effective monitoring could take place and that objectives were being met.

He thanked the Committee and handed over to the Deputy Minister and Members of the Department to answer the remaining questions.

Mr Mhlongo interjected and asked that the Minister state his view on an individual having three positions supported by one Department, and whether he saw it as a conflict of interest.

The Minister said that he had answered the question about the Mzansi Orchestra, and reminded Mr Mhlongo that they had not yet had the chance to meet and discuss the matter.

The Chairperson called for a point of order, and released the Minister from the meeting despite Mr Mhlongo’s objections. Any other outstanding questions could be directed to the Deputy Minister.

Mr Mhlongo attempted to interject once again.

The Chairperson reprimanded Mr Mhlongo and said that he needed to listen to her direction and not interrupt when Members were speaking, and asked to be protected by the other Members.

Ms Sumayya Khan, Deputy Director-General (DDG): Recreation Development and Sport Promotion, provided responses to certain of the questions asked, starting with Mr Mhlongo, and said that his issues had been noted.

Regarding the matter of school sports, she said that when the School Sports Championships were rolled out, there were various age groups, and the number of participants had thus been identified upfront. Once this was done, the targets were then set. When the provinces arrived, there was no guarantee they would come with all the participants. Only once Northwest arrived had they realised they had come to the championships without the full team, which had compromised the targets. The Northern Cape and Mpumalanga did indicate to the Department that they had experienced challenges. However, it should be noted that the Championship has not taken place for the last two years due to COVID-19. When the Championship reconvened, it was on a much smaller scale and the targets had been reduced. The other challenge was the constitutional court ruling, in terms of which the Department could not spend more than a certain amount, which resulted in targets not being met. In trying to return to normality, they had been faced with issues of the economy, where the cost of living and the Department's deliverables had exponentially increased.

Regarding the district events, she acknowledged that the targets were not achieved in the third quarter. In the second quarter, the targets set by the provinces had been achieved, but this had compromised achieving the national targets set in the third quarter.

Answering the question about the sports awards, Ms Khan explained that the awards were not held in 2020 due to COVID-19 and the restrictions on gatherings, which was why they were held on 20 March 22. The event was not a fiscal dumping and the Department had in fact planned for the event, but for the upcoming financial year 2023/24, the awards would be held in November once again.

On the gym report, the DDG explained that the targets had been set for the fourth quarter because the contract was awarded to service providers who went out into the communities. When dealing with infrastructure, there was little certainty that the targets would be achieved as various factors influenced the construction industry. However, this target had been achieved in the fourth quarter.

Regarding the transfers to the Sports Federation, she said that 59 federations had received transfers. At the end of quarter three, many of these federations did not comply -- only eight of them had successfully submitted all the necessary documents and information. The reason for the late payments was because the federations concluded their financials by April.

Answering the question about Boxing South Africa, she said that amateur boxing was a federation that gets transfers from the Department. However, Boxing South Africa receives around R19 million as ring-fenced funding in the budget. Within the conditional grants the provinces receive, the Department had asked that they ring-fence R350 000 to ensure that any promoter given support in the province who staged a bout must ensure that there were two bouts for women. The Deputy Minister had also led a workshop with Boxing South Africa, where only women were in attendance. The concerns raised during this event have also been noted and dealt with.

Replying to Ms Van Dyk, she said the Department had begun a process to review the entire school sports model, and were hoping to begin reviewing the funding model.

On the matter of the MOU between the DSAC and the Department of Education, she said that it had come to an end and a new MOU was being finalised which was more integrated, and took into consideration all aspects of the Department's work. She asserted that this had been a success and that all the projects within the conditional grants given to the provinces and the responsibilities stipulated in the MOU were being implemented.

Regarding the letters from school children and funding, the DDG stressed that there would never be enough funds available for the entire population. However, there were firms in the country that would be able to fund these children. If the letters did not come through the Sports Federation, the Department would not be assisting these individuals due to the issues that arise regarding the safety of students, as these children were at risk of being trafficked.

Ms Khan said that R4 million per annum was transferred to the MRM. The Department had implemented a response to the challenges they were facing regarding late reporting, which was the monitoring system they had created. There was an official dedicated to ensuring the plan was followed, that workshops were taking place, as well as ensuring their financials were in order. She said that last year an issue was found when analysing the financials, resulting in their programme manager being let go from the organisation. There were instances where the reports were late, and the Department had made a decision not to release funds until the reports were submitted in time. At a Cabinet-level, there was increasing interest in what was happening with the MRM, and there would be a full review in the upcoming year. Due to institutional challenges, the Department was in contact with all the provinces to ensure a fully functioning MRM across all provinces.

Regarding the Izimbizos and not meeting the targets, the DSAC implemented a new oversight system. The executives would be visiting each province to engage with the issues that had been affecting the citizens. In some cases, there would be scheduled Izimbizos, although they did clash with other priorities.

She said the vacancy rate stood between 18 and 19 percent, but about 17 positions within the Department had been filled.

Mr Irwin Langeveld, Director: Institutional Development, DSAC, explained that the language practitioners and heritage bursaries were not the same. The language bursary aimed to develop qualified language practitioners and focused on previously marginalised languages. The heritage bursary was similar, in that it aimed to assist qualified heritage practitioners in areas such as forensic archaeology.  

He said the archeophones were transported to France by two officials and repaired over a two-week period by the manufacturers free of charge. Whilst in France, it was planned that the officials would undergo training with the French audio-visual institute whilst the phones were in for repairs.

On the issue of public libraries, he explained that they had targeted 29 new libraries but had managed to achieve 31. The additional two libraries were funded by rollover funds managed by the provinces.

Mr Mokgwamme responded to the queries on the infrastructure budget. He said they had been having issues with the implementation agents -- the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure (DPWI) and the Independent Development Trust (IDT). The DSAC had concluded they needed to establish their own project management unit (PMU) to take over the projects assigned to the implementation agents. He said that this was one of the reasons the Department was under-spending, and when looking at the infrastructure budget over the last two years, the evidence showed that it had not been doing well. After meeting with Treasury, it had been decided that it would be best for the Department to take control.

Regarding the issue of office accommodation, Treasury had recommended that they include these costs in the existing budget. The Department had disagreed with the suggestion, because when they decided to increase the DPWI budget, they were supposed to consider increasing the baseline budget of the DSAC, as the decision would affect multiple departments.

Responding to the financial issue of South African State Theatre, he said that the majority of their entities experienced problems with the budget due to the increase in taxes. As part of assisting these entities, the Department used public offices as accommodation spaces so that they could re-prioritise the budget. Initially, the budget was around R32 million, but the Department managed to increase it to around R35 million to alleviate the entity's financial hardship.

Dr Khumalo concluded the responses by commenting on the point that the Department purposefully set low targets. She said they considered the previous year’s performance and used those figures as a baseline. However, there were other factors to consider, such as trends and conditions, and the Department did take this comment by the Member into account. 

She asked if the Department could answer the questions regarding Boxing South Africa when they were present during their presentation to the Committee tomorrow.

On the matter of blacklisting beneficiaries, she agreed with the sentiments expressed that the Department needed to conduct better oversight. During discussions with the audit committee, they had acknowledged that they needed to tighten their own internal controls, starting with the MOA’s. There had been discussions of piloting a training programme for first time beneficiaries, to ensure clarity on the requirements and expectations. The Department was also following the guidance and recommendations made by its legal services, where blacklisting beneficiaries was the most extreme form of action and was usually implemented when nothing more could be done.

On the issue of the Presidential Employment Stimulus Programme (PESP), she said that Members were aware of the issues faced during the implementation of phase one, which had been considered as lessons learnt. As such, the discussions and agreements with National Treasury were focused on including more stringent controls in terms of transfers. The implementing agencies were the National Arts Council (NAC), the National Film and Video Foundation (NFVF), the National Museum and, for the first time last year, the National Heritage Council was included. In terms of how transfers took place, the projection had to change, resulting in the differences evidenced within the expenditure. Initially, the projection was based on how the Department conducted the transfers in phases one and two. Following the agreement of the controls put in place, the Department transferred funds to the entity only after receiving a full adjudication report and those recommended as beneficiaries. Then, based on the reports analysed by both the Department and National Treasury, a collective decision was made to transfer funds to beneficiaries.

Responding to the Chairperson's comment on the need to prioritise the youth and GBV, she said that these were some of the programmes that had been prioritised in the APP report. There were clear interventions across all four programmes, which targeted women, children, people with disabilities and youth.

Responding to the question on school sports awards, she said that there was a written response that Parliament had received. A total cost breakdown has also been provided for the entire event.

Ms Nocawe Mafu, Deputy Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture, thanked the Committee whilst aboard her flight. She said that the Department had adequately responded to the questions presented, and that Members were free to write to the Department.

Follow-up questions

Mr Mhlongo said he had not been given the exact figure of how much was spent on the Sports Awards. Moreover, he complained that both the Minister and Deputy Minister were no longer present in the meeting, and his question about the official who possessed multiple positions had still not been answered. He felt that the Chairperson was protecting them from answering to the Committee.

The Chairperson responded that she was not protecting any executive.

Mr Joseph asked how many vacancies there were in total within the Department, and if the 50 vacancies mentioned within the presentation represented the R24.5 million under-spending. He also asked that an update be provided on the establishment of the project management unit.

DSAC's response

Ms Khan said the total spent on the sports awards was R13.4 million.

On the matter of the service provider, she said the tender contract had ended, and there were reports available that were submitted monthly.

Ms Tshikwatamba, DDG: Institutional Governance and Corporate Services, responded to the questions about vacancy rates, and explained that when the posts had been filled, the working percentage rate did not allow the Department to include the additional posts.

Mr Mokgwamme responded to the question posed by Mr Joseph, and said that the R24 million was the amount based on the vacant posts, and was the main reason for the under-spending. By the year end, the Department had spent around 91%, leaving 9% which was accumulative from the R24 million. Regarding the project management unit, the Department and Treasury had agreed to offer an opportunity to figure out how much it would cost to cover the PMU, as it was not part of the Department.

The Chairperson thanked the Members for their oversight during the discussion, and the Department for their presentation.

Draft second term Committee programme

The DA Members all rejected the programme.

Mr Zondi moved the adoption of the programme, and was seconded by Ms Adams.

Mr Mhlongo argued that the DA Members had decided to reject the programme because they had not been consulted. It was not appropriate that Members were emailed the necessary documentation for Committee meetings only five days beforehand.

The Chairperson ruled that the matter was closed, and the meeting would move forward to discuss the next item on the agenda.

Committee report on NAC implementation of Public Protector's recommendations

Mr Joseph said that the Committee might need to consider seeking legal advice, as the report spoke about considering giving the South African Roadies Association (SARA) an opportunity to present to the Committee. However, the report concluded that the matter was in fact closed, which contradicted the recommendation. He argued that the report should not be adopted yet until the Committee received the necessary legal advice. If SARA was allowed to present, he asked what purpose or outcome was expected.

Mr Mhlongo interjected again, stating that he agreed with Mr Joseph that the Committee was merely a mediator, not a judge. He believed that legal counsel was necessary due to both parties possessing contradictory opinions. As such, he asked that the item be put on hold until the matter was resolved legally.

Mr Madlingozi said he was under the impression that the report would be presented to the Committee before comments were allowed from Members. However, he argued that the Committee could not accept the report as a true reflection of how the events took place.

Ms Malomane said that the mandate of the Public Protector states that any suspicion of wrongdoing should be logged to be investigated. However, regarding the issue of SARA, the Public Protector had closed the case, meaning that the complainant had received a full report discussing why this was the case. There was no reason why SARA should present to the Committee.

Mr Zondi asked why the Chairperson allowed Members to comment on a report that had not yet been presented to the Committee.

Ms Sibiya said she was unsure what the Committee was debating, considering the matter had been closed.

Ms Van Dyk supported what had been said by fellow DA Members, commenting that the Committee was under the impression that SARA would be allowed to present, which had not yet taken place. She agreed that the guidance of legal counsel was necessary, and voiced her support.

The Chairperson said that in the previous meeting, there had been no agreement to invite the complainant. NAC and the Public Protector had previously answered all questions. It was not the time to begin doubting what had previously been agreed to. The meeting was recorded, and in the closing remarks, it was mentioned that additional information was received which had assisted towards closing the matter. She proposed that the report be sent to the Speaker to be reviewed once again, as there had been no objections previously when this was discussed.

Mr Mhlongo said there was no justice on the matter, and that the Department should comment on the matters raised in the meeting.

Mr Joseph contended that the Department should consider the recommendations that Members had put forward, that his statements be included in the report, and the fact that there were ongoing insults and false allegations against the Committee.

Mr Madlingozi called for a point of order, and asserted that no one in the Committee could say that they were experiencing any form of abuse. He was against the statement made.

On behalf of the DA, Mr Mhlongo rejected the entire report.

The rest of the Committee Members voiced their support for the report.

Consideration and Adoption of Minutes

The Committee considered and adopted minutes of 10 and 17 March.

The meeting was adjourned.