Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

 

 

The House met at Nieuwmeester Marquee at 14:01.

 

 

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

 

 

Debate on Vote No 2 – Parliament:

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): As the Speaker makes her way to the podium, may I ask other members just to settle down?

 

 

The SPEAKER: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the role of Parliament is important in the life of every nation. It is a representative body that represents the hopes and aspirations of the people. It is a body that develops new laws, amends existing ones, and repeals laws that are no longer needed. It is a body that holds the government to account for its actions. It is also an instrument that ensures that the government uses public funds efficiently to solve people’s problems.

 

 

Parliament is an instrument that is at the disposal of citizens through which they can influence policy and legislation. When one reflects on the significant role of Parliament, one will appreciate why those freedom loving South Africans in 1955 in Kliptown adopting the Freedom Charter ensure that one of the first clauses would call for citizens participation in their governance said, and I quote:

 

The people shall govern.

 

 

 

Our democratic dispensation in 1994 and the finalisation of our Constitution in 1996 created a framework in which we now have a legislative arm of the state whose critical role will be that of the voice of the people will be heard. As we celebrate the 30 years of freedom, we can look back at the achievements that this House has been able to make.

Transformative legislations that have changed the lives of our people for the better has been crafted and passed by this very Parliament.

 

 

It is through the interventions of those who went before us as pioneers of building this legislature that we have transparency, such that our nation and beyond may have an opportunity to follow the debates that touch their lives and also observe how we as representatives are engaged in ensuring that their lives are made better than they were before.

 

 

Siswati:

Sihlalo nemalunga aleNdlu, kubalulekile ngisho kutsi laba labangephambili kwetfu benta kutsi kube lula kukhuluma ngetilwimi tetfu njengoba sati kutsi tonkhe tilwimi tebahlali baseNingizimu Afrika tivikelwe nguMtsetfosisekelo wakuleli.

 

 

Sibonile kuleliviki lelengcile ngalesikhatsi kunetinkhulumo mphikiswano emalunga akakhoni kukhuluma ngetilwimi tawo ngendlela lekahle. Ngitawutsembisa kutsi sitawuchubeka nekwenta ngalokusemandleni etfu kusebentisa imali lekhona kutsi onkhe emalunga akwati kutivakalisa ngelulwimi lawo.

 

 

Ngicela kuwe babe Mashatile kanye nakini boNgcongcoshe nemaSekela enu kutsi uma niletsa imitsetfo kulePhalamende

ningayiletsi ngelulwimi lweSingisi ne Sibhunu kuphela, hlanganisani tonkhe tilwimi. Kube khona lokubhalwa ngesiZulu, ngeSiswati, Tshivenda njalo njalo, kutobonakala kutsi tintfo sentigucukile, sengitsi lesiphetse kulesikhatsi. [Lihlombe.]

 

 

English:

 

Hon Chairperson and hon members, public participation is the bedrock of how we engage our citizens to ensure that their views are taken on board in law making, policy formulation and other important decisions that this Parliament takes.

 

We have had sectoral Parliaments; we have had petitions being brought here. We have also had events such as Taking Parliament to the People, as well as we do public hearings when we make laws or canvassing views on other important policy questions. These engagements help us to deepen our engagement with the citizens.

 

 

The 30 years of freedom has given us an opportunity to look back also on our achievements as this Parliament so as our weaknesses and the things that we need to improve.

 

 

Siswati:

Ngingasho kutsi lokunye lesakwenta singulePhalamende kuba netingcoco letitawuvunyelwa kulama mini-plenary lapho sitawukhona kutsi sikhulume ngetinkinga letikhungetse imiphakatsi yenu. Sitawuchubeka nokukwenta loku khona emalunga aleNdlu atsi nakabuya emakhaya kutigodzilukhetfo tawo abuya netindzaba lokumele kukhulunywe ngato sikwati kutidzingidza letotindzaba. Singagcini ngokwenta ngendlela lesenta ngayo uma kwentiwa tishukumiso kutsi ngelilanga lelilandzelako sitawukhuluma ngaloku nalokwa, cedze kungenteki.

 

 

English:

Hon members, in order to ensure that Parliament undertake its oversight responsibility over the executive timeous tabling of documents will assist committees in deliberating on issues brought before them. It will also be critical to ensure that engagement with the executive is improved. And that the quality of responses to questions posed to the executive are able to assist members to undertake their oversight responsibilities.

 

 

In the previous administration, we have also acknowledged that where Ministers are not able to attend portfolio committees or even answering questions in this House, Deputy Ministers will be available to undertake this work. I would urge members of

the executive through our Leader of Government Business that this practice must continue so that there can be this dynamic relationship between the executive and the legislators.

 

Hon members, the sixth administration started engagement with the National Treasury to address the funding model of Parliament. Careful consideration of our budget as this Parliament shows that it has been declining over time, which has had a negative impact on the work of Parliament. The burning of Parliament also added more stress and has affected our effectiveness as the House.

 

 

House Chairperson, I want to indicate to you that last Friday, I held a meeting with the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure hon McPherson to explore the possibility of getting the dome that has been used by the state for big events previously, like the funeral of late President Mandela. This is the asset of the state which can be put to effective use. The Minister has indicated to us that the dome is available, and the department will now engage Parliament and the Ministry of Defence to ensure that we move this dome and construct it here, so that from now on we can have a structure where we continue to meet as Parliament.

We want to indicate to members that the reconstruction of a new Chamber is on course. On Thursday, we will be engaging with the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, together with public works to look at the timelines for the completion of this work. Members will continue to be briefed on progress through the appropriate structures.

 

 

As we opened the Seventh Parliament, we have also experienced challenges of committees not being able to conduct their business due to space availability. While we have tried to improve, this remains an ongoing challenge that we must address. The availability of space for offices of members is another point that we will address going forward as this Parliament.

 

 

House Chairperson and hon members, building the capacity of members is critical for them to engage in meaningful work of Parliament. The initial onboarding and training of members has been necessary. However, we do need to ensure that members are also given enough tools of trade to do their work effectively. Subject-specific training is again another necessary element for capacitation of members, while at the same time our budget needs to include study tours where members can also benchmark on other parliaments on the work that they do.

The constituency offices are another area in which we are able to have a dynamic link between citizens, the legislature, and the government. The sixth administration ensured that such offices have now both an administrator and a field worker.

However, this might need to be improved to ensure that where possible, we can use additional technologies to improve our work.

 

 

Siswati:

Sihlalo nemalunga lahloniphekile aleNdlu, ngifuna kusho kutsi kunetihlaka letibitwa ngokutsi Tikhungo te-Chapter 9 na 10.

Kubalulekile kutsi kusebenta kwePhalamende naletinhlaka sikwente kube ncono, ngoba umsebenti waletinhlaka kusekela umsebenti lowentiwa iPhalamende kute sive setfu siye phambili. Kanye nekutsi lenkhululeko lesayilwela iviwe ngumuntfu wonkhe. Kubalulekile nekutsi tincomo lebatiletsa kuleNdlu sitibukisise, siticubungule bese sicinisekisa kutsi leNdlu iyatisebentisa letincomo. Sihlalo, kukhona lilunga leliphakamise sandla?

 

 

Mr J A MNGXITHAMA: I rise just to express my appreciation for the use of the Indigenous languages, which was brought to this House by the uMkhonto weSizwe Party ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You may congratulate the Speaker later in the debate on what she said. It is not necessary to do that now. Thank you. Please proceed, hon Speaker.

 

 

Siswati:

 

SOMLOMO WELIPHALAMENDE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu. Ngitsandza kukhuluma ngalokunye lokubalulekile lokungumsebenti wePhalamende, loko ngumsebenti wokuchumana kwePhalamende kanye naletinye tinhlaka temave lokubitwa ngokutsi yi-parliamentary democracy.

 

English:

This remains a key area of our work. Our participation in regional, continental, and international bodies ensures that we remain critical voices to advance our national interest as well as contribute to global peace and development.

 

 

Hon members, we will develop ways in which feedback on our engagements in this forum is deliberated upon by members and also ensures that those who attend such meetings are well prepared on the debates long before they leave. This will ensure that our participation in these forums becomes effective.

Our function is to ratify international treaties and agreements. Going forward, this will require careful consideration by relevant committees before they are tabled for ratification in the Houses of Parliament. We need to be alive to the implications of such treaties and agreements and how they advance our national interest as well as global peace and development.

 

 

House Chairperson and members, Parliament, through its international or parliamentary diplomacy, must scrutinise international trends, particularly in the area of international trade, and examine the extent to which these can be used as a tool to improve our economic conditions.

Especially when you look at the non-trade barriers that are sometimes imposed by countries that we trade with. It is important that we as a Parliament see this not only as the task of the executive, but also as our responsibility.

 

We need to develop our role in regional and continental structures, especially in our region, the Southern African Development Community, SADC, and the Pan-African Parliament, which is an instrument of the African Union. Not only in terms of our participation, but also in terms of monitoring how our

government implements some of these agreements that come out of these structures.

 

 

The Parliament’s Budget Vote 2 will allow us to focus on the key priorities, some of which I have already emphasised in my speech. However, the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislation Act requires Parliament to develop a new strategic plan within six months of the national elections. This process will allow the institution to concretise its priorities and outcomes for the Seventh Parliament and align its resources with Parliament’s priority areas.

 

The 2024/25 Budget Vote 2 for Parliament is set at R4,436 billion it includes the refurbishment of the parliamentary buildings and facilities. Hon members, I therefore table Budget Vote 2 for your consideration. Thank you.

 

 

Siswati:

 

LISEKELA LASOSISWEBHU WELICEMBU LELINYENTI (Mk D E Dlakude):

Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu lehloniphekile. Angibingelele kuSomlomo waleNdlu lehlonophekile, ngibengelele futsi nakumhlonishwa, Lisekela Lamengameli walelive, nani bahlonishwa nonkhe ngiyanibingelela.

English:

 

Hon House Chairperson, the Parliament for the better part of its existence has been a tribune of minority to assert their domination over the majority. The ANC over the past 30 years led a legislative reform which has transformed our country and laid a basis for the creation of a nonracial, nonsexist, united, democratic and prosperous society.

 

 

The laws that have been passed since 1994 are an expression of the interests of the people. The majority of the people in all corners of South Africa, as well as various social partners, have played a meaningful role in developing the South Africa we live in today.

 

In nation with a Constitution, and legislative framework which protects our human rights, the rights of workers, protecting the vulnerable and giving expression to the social and economic rights of all.

 

 

The commitment to transforming our society is an ongoing process and in the sixth Parliament we passed 145 Bills which shows the ongoing process of transforming our society.

Hon House Chairperson, the 2024 national and provincial elections, created an outcome that required political parties to work together to constitute a majority, which constituted the leadership of Parliament and the executive. For a national executive to exist, a majority should be constituted by political parties.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, the ANC called for a government of national unity and provided the leadership required to constitute a government that should continue to advance the people’s interest and the promise of a better life envisaged by our Constitution.

 

A number of aspects of the function of Parliament will require a shift to adapt to the changed conditions to ensure there is adequate support and systems for a functional Parliament.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, an important function of Parliament, is to oversee the executive branch, and ensure accountability.

This is a function that enables Parliament to advance the interest of the people and issues they want addressed. It is this function that also enables Parliament to intervene and recommend interventions to resolve problems.

Hon House Chairperson, strengthening the capacity to support oversight and accountability functions of Parliament is fundamental for public representatives to have an impact on communities. Parliament is relatively underfunded, but this function is critical to the work of Parliament and should be strengthened.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, as Parliament, we oversight a government which is quite vast and complex and for us to robustly do our oversight, we need enhanced capacity. We should continue to strengthen our relationship with institutions supporting democracy. As there are reports resolve challenges and appraise Parliament of the insights of various challenges affecting government, society and the political economy.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, we need to continue engaging with the National Treasury to change the funding formula for Parliament. We believe that the Speaker and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces will prioritise this matter.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, the Judicial Commission on allegation of state capture and corruption, known as the Zondo Commission, made various findings on Parliament. And the sixth

Parliament has undertaken a comprehensive approach to respond to the various recommendations.

 

 

The seventh Parliament should continue to build on the work undertaken by previous democratic parliaments.

 

 

Siswati:

Sihlalo weNdlu lohloniphekile, ngaBhimbidvwane ngemnyaka wa 2022, kuye kwaba nengoti lapho Liphalamende letfu lapho like lasha khona. Kepha loko akuwutsikametanga kutsi umsebenti wePhahalamende uchubekele embili.

 

 

Emakomiti achubekile akwati kutsi ahlangane atsatse tincumo letifanelekile. Sikhonile kuphasisa imitseshwana letsite, lephasisiwe. Sikwatile kutsi sihlangane, nanoma singakahlangani njengoba sihlangene namuhla, kutsi sihlanganyele sisonkhe, kepha umtsetfo lochuba kuhanjiswa kwaleNdlu, sikwatile kutsi sichubeke siwuphasise, lesivumele kwekutsi sichubeke sisebente ngekwebuchwepheshe besimanje.

 

English:

 

We welcome the redesign of Parliament to reflect the diversity of our nation and to have the required accessibility for

persons with disabilities and other needs for an inclusive environment.

 

 

Hon House Chairperson, our work as Parliament should be rooted in our constituencies. We should strengthen constituency work and ensure we allocate sufficient resources and time for contact with people. Our method of functioning should increasingly involve public participation and civic education must be strengthened to achieve high public participation.

 

 

We must ensure all our people understand their rights and use petitions, submissions, public hearings and letters to public representatives. South Africa must know parliamentary constituency offices and know that they are for everyone and are not just for party political members.

 

Hon House Chairperson, another critical matter is to ensure that we have adequate structures that meets the well-being needs of Members of Parliament. We believe we need to continue pursuing resolution of the ... [Inaudible.] challenges in a sustainable manner that reduces the financial risk of Parliament.

Hon House Chairperson, we have always reached a consensus on...

 

 

Siswati:

Emehlo mani, eshi...

 

 

 

English:

Hon House Chairperson, we have always reached consensus or constructively disagreed on matters in the past. We have also made our collective efforts to restore and maintain the decorum of the House and we pledge our commitment as the ANC, to work with the presiding officers and the administration of Parliament in the noble task of serving our nation and its people. To serve the people of South Africa [Interjection.] is an honour. The ANC supports Budget Vote 2. Thank you very much, House Chairperson. [Time expired.]

 

 

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, those who have never been a part of Parliament will not understand and appreciate the crazy, unpredictable, wonderful place that it is. A degree of this is necessary and is normal. In my view, it’s Parliament’s own way of making sure she retains those who respect her and spits out those who are here for the wrong reasons.

A degree of chaos and clever confusion is needed. But there is a difference between parliamentary chaos, and parliamentary decay. Over the last 10 or more years, and in particular since the fire of 2022, Parliament has not been the same. For more than two years, the last administration dragged its feet in clearing up and rebuilding our House whilst in the City of Cape Town, brand new skyscrapers were going up in the same time. I regard today, where we have to assemble in a marquee in a parking lot, as a low point for Parliament.

 

 

It is commendable, House Chairperson, that you want to have our sittings fully in person after Covid-19 and I support this, but we need a proper and permanent place to have our assemblies and we need it urgently.

 

 

For Parliament to remain robust, we need to have in-person contact in every committee possible. And along with that, there is the issue of proper translation services.

 

 

We must make affordable, effective translation services available in as many of our meetings as possible. And that will require that we have the facilities in place to do so. The money spent on hiring bays for translators could have

covered the salaries of an extra few or made sure that we retain those we already have.

 

 

It is a scarce skill, and we need to look after these individuals. It does give me some consolation that the new Deputy Speaker spent a large part of her life advocating for translation services both into other spoken languages as well as being a pioneer for sign language interpretation in South Africa.

 

 

At this point, I wish to thank the staff members in every department of this massive institution, who helped with the transition from the sixth Parliament to the seventh. House Chairperson, the dedication and institutional knowledge that we have here must be retained and the only way to do this is if we look after the staff who care very deeply for the institution, they have spent their professional lives keeping together.

 

 

Apart from that, House Chairperson, we need to ensure that Parliament becomes a conducive environment in which to work and to welcome visitors with pride. There are countless services and resources that have faded over the years that I have been here, with no explanation as to why the cost bill

has not come down. Where are the services, and where is the

 

money? They can’t both have disappeared.

 

 

 

House Chairperson, in terms of our operations itself, it is vital that we implement a more robust committee system, where members are not simply left to ask once-off questions to departments, and then the scrutiny is over.

 

 

We need to implement a robust system of engaging the executive like we have done before in Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, and in the Justice Committee during the Thabo Bester investigation. Of course, this system is not appropriate at all times during for all business before the committees, but where appropriate, our committee chairpersons should allow for more freedom and engagement from members.

 

Apart from that, it will now more than ever be important to ensure that the policy objectives and targets set by every department and as set out during the President’s speech, need to be placed on the agendas of the portfolio committees and monitored closely.

 

 

When it comes to oversight, it is first Parliament’s duty to

monitor closely the implementation and realisation of these

objectives, but also to ensure that we do from our side what we can to assist in making it a reality.

 

 

Our other key function is that of legislation, where we must move to a point where members can meaningfully make a contribution. I am very aware of the fact that not all members are lawyers, but they do not have to be. We need, however, to provide new members with the necessary capacity to interpret laws and not merely parrot researchers inside parliament and their parties.

 

A final operational matter that must be prioritised by Parliament, is the processing of petitions. It has been more than 12 years since the judgment in Oriani-Ambrosini, Speaker caused the scrapping of the petitions committee as collateral damage for allowing members to bring private members’ bills without permission.

 

 

It cannot be that we are the only Parliament in the world where the petitions committee sits in the Upper House that is representing the provinces, and not in the Lower House that represents the people directly.

This, and the review of our rules to make Parliament suitable for the era of coalitions, will be vital in the coming years if we want to move forward.

 

House Chairperson, none of these challenges are impossible to overcome. And by overcoming them, with each step we will not only restore the dignity of Parliament, but also her ability to facilitate the working of our democracy in a tangible manner. Because it is here where our democracy really should come alive.

 

 

House Chairperson, it’s not only an archaic institution that is nice to have for traditionalists. It is based on the most robust and inquisitive parliamentary processes in the world where the quirks serve a purpose and it is vital if we want to ensure that all ideas and voices of the people - not only from the government, but also the opposition - is aired and considered. I, and the DA caucus, look forward to help make this a reality. I thank you.

 

 

Mr W M DOUGLAS: Hon House Chairperson, hon members and fellow South Africans, I would like to thank everybody for this opportunity, and I want to thank Baba Zuma, first of all for the opportunity for us as MK to be here. I greet you all in

the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I stand before you as representative of the MK party. The budget is more than a collection of numbers. It is a reflection of our nation’s priorities, values and commitment to transforming the lives of all South Africans. Having been deprived the opportunity to have sight of all the documentation for enough time, we would like to officially vote against the adoption of this Budget Vote 2.

 

 

The Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, has provided us with an in-depth analysis of the 2024 Appropriations Bill, highlighting both the successes and shortcomings. As we deliberate on these appropriations, it is crucial to reflect on the past, particularly the tenure of the President Jacob Zuma.

 

 

Mr E M NTSHINGILA: Chair, with due respect, kindly reprimand the members of the GNU not to drown the speaker on the podium. Allow him to finish his presentation.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, it is indeed correct. You can interject, but the speaker at the podium must get a fair opportunity to make his speech. So, keep interjections, keep it down, and do not allow the speaker

not to be heard. From where we sit, it is difficult to follow the speaker, when there is a lot of noise coming from the floor as well.

 

Mr W M DOUGLAS: During President Zuma, the rightful President of South Africa’s tenure, we saw unprecedented support for black businesses and black industrialists. As he once said: “We need to radically transform the economy to include the black majority.” The black majority is not included by this ANC and GNU government. The vision translated into policies that empowered many black entrepreneurs and the black industrious programme was launched under President Zuma’s leadership.

 

 

Black Industrialists have benefited from his leadership, and millions and millions of dollars have been given to them to start their businesses and access the economy. Our economy is owned by white monopoly capital. Since 1994, the economy has not been given back to the owners of the land. It was not given back to who owned the land from the start. You see, the reality is that money can only be made for the appropriations of government through the taxpayers, but how do the taxpayers get that money? They got the money by appropriating the land

from the indigenous people and African indigenous people without compensation to this day.

 

 

In 1994, the land was never given back. The economy was never given back. You look at the short-term insurance industry, what happens there is that our people, coloured, black and all people of colour get excluded from procurement opportunities by white monopoly capital. It is the same in every industry.

We cannot access procurement opportunities, because white monopoly capital owns every industry. Whether you go to mining, whether you go to any other thing, they own all of it.

 

So, when we talk about appropriations, let us talk about how the land was appropriated in the first place that these people who are paying these taxes. That land was stolen from the regional landowners of this place, and it needs to be returned. MK is going to do that.

 

In line with the PBO’s mandate to scrutinise government expenditure, what is the detailed plan for rationalising public entities. Despite significant budget allocations, disparities in higher education access remains stark. What new accountability aligned with the PBO’s oversight role are in

place to ensure that funds are used effectively to bridge this gap?

 

 

Reflecting on the PBO’s concern about the efficient use of public funds, how will the budget address the delays in the National Health Insurance implementation and ensure timely progress? Public infrastructure investment is less than 2% of GDP against a NDP, target of 10%. Where are the strategies to help us reach the targets of the NDP, when it is now at 2%?

 

 

Considering the PBO’s role and considering the House’s role about appropriations, where is the role of this House in evaluating fiscal policies? How does the budget balance fiscal consideration with the need for developmental spending, especially in light of South Africa’s high levels of poverty and inequality? What specific reforms is the GNU going to bring to improve government spending efficiently and what will be implemented by Treasury to enhance the utilisation of conditional grants, particularly underperforming sectors like agriculture and health?

 

 

What I want to say is that these appropriations ...

Mr V G REDDY: Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule 65, where a member is not to converse aloud, while a member is speaking.

The member across me, hon Mantashe there, is conversing so loudly that he is disturbing the speech.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Hon members, hon members.

 

 

Mr V G REDDY: So, please, bring him to order in terms of Rule 65, I thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, can we just observe the decorum of the House and let us keep the interjections and the noise level down?

 

 

Mr W M DOUGLAS: Chair, under President Zuma, South Africa, embarked on a massive infrastructure project development, including the development of the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, investments in public transport systems like the Rea Vaya bus service, the Medupi Power Station and many others. In the last eight years, we have seen this government and the ANC government specifically taking things backward and not forward.

In the last 30 years, we have had Brics countries like China, like Russia taking people out of poverty, whereas this government has not used the appropriations budget to take the people out of poverty. This government has used the appropriations budget to keep the status quo, to keep the land and the economy in the hands of the same people who stole it from our people. Why are our people still living in the shacks and the townships around the corner, when there is an Appropriation Bill in in terms of housing? You guys should never have allowed our people to stay there for 30 years. You go to China, and you will find cities being bought for five to

10 million people every five years. We have had 30 years and we have not bought one new city under the ANC, and we will not build any new cities, because you want to make our people comfortable in the dirt and in the filth in the townships. Our people suffer, because there is no electricity. Our people suffer, because there is no food. [Interjections.]

 

 

No, let me speak on behalf of the people. You may want to talk the way you want to talk in Parliament, but I speak for the people and the people on the ground - the coloured people, the black people. All our people want answers from this House and that is what MK is here to do. When are you going to build houses for our people and give our people jobs? When are you

going to take our people out of poverty? Our people have to suffer to buy electricity, to buy bread, to buy food, to buy milk, and you guys are busy talking here about big-picture macro things.

 

 

No, this this is going to end in this House. The land must come back to its rightful owners and the rightful owners will take our people out of poverty. We will use the mineral resources of this land to take our people out of poverty. We will not let the white people take that land and use it to make more boats and more cars and have nice suits like they are sitting here in the DA. They have nice German cars and nice suits you.

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Julle kan mooi lyk, maar daardie geld kom vanaf bloedgeld. Daardie geld kom van die bloed van die mense af – die bloed van die Khoi en die San. Dit kom van die bloed van al ons mense, wat julle doodgemaak het. Julle sit hier met ’n smile [glimlag] op jul gesigte, maar julle is niks nie. Julle is moordenaars. Julle het ons mense doodgemaak, maar julle sit hier en kom met julle GNU.

Laat ek julle sê, die mense wil hul land terug hê. Ons wil ons mense uit armoede vat. Ons wil die myne aan ons mense teruggee. [Tussenwerpsels.]

 

English:

 

We want our people to have a life of freedom. I am talking about all the stuff. Yes, I can’t be a Member of Parliament before I talk to everything in terms of appropriations, but things must change. It cannot stay the same. The land must come back, and MK will take over and return the land to its rightful owners, so that people can get out of poverty. [Interjections.]

 

IsiZulu:

 

Gwaza Mkhonto! Gwaza! [Ihlombe.]

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members! Order, hon members! Hon members, can you just settle down, please? Hon members, what you are doing is unacceptable. Order! Hon members! Hon members, what you are doing is unacceptable. This is a sitting of the National Assembly. Order! And the Rules of the National Assembly apply. For instance, you cannot sit where you are sitting and just switch on your microphone, and then you start making commentary. You cannot. [Interjections.]

Hon member, I have not asked you for your opinion. I am now addressing the House and one of the Rules clearly states that when a presiding officer adresses the House, you shall not interfere with what the presiding officer is saying. I am referring to all members in the House. I also want to remind the hon members of a Rule that states that, if a member at the podium delivers a speech, you cannot drown that member. You cannot sit and do ongoing commentary. I am going to call you out. I will identify you and if necessary, I will ask you to leave the House. We are not going to continue like this.

 

 

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, Speaker, we must state outrightly that we reject this budget. [Applause.] The Parliament we were introduced to 10-years-ago, was very efficient in aiding our work to hold the executive accountable. Our deepest worry relates to the competence of the Secretary of Parliament, never before has the Joint Sitting been delayed by over 30 minutes over a simple issue of electricity. The chaos and total disorganisation that characterised the first week of Parliament included double booking of venues, absence of translation services in mini plenaries, and lack of equipment such as sound and broadcasting services.

Today, we are debating under marquee which we have long asked for, particularly a dome marquee as a temporal structure of Parliament, and we have it because it was bought during the funeral of President Mandela. This Secretary has not demonstrated competence in this and arranging of the venues. The Parliament building burnt down over two years ago and all that we were told was that they were removing rubble for two years. We still do not have a plan for a temporal structure whilst the rebuilding is taking place.

 

 

The NA building burnt down because its health and safety standards were not in place. As we speak, it does not look like other buildings of Parliament like Marks Building or the NCOP has improved its health and safe standard to be insulated from fire or other disasters. They are even still under maintained.

 

 

House Chairperson, with the current Secretary, who earns over R4 million per annum, which was upgraded from just a mere over R2 million. We do not think the crucial project of rebuilding Parliament will happen with the much-needed speed and quality. There is no believable plan that it takes his work very seriously. We continue to call on Parliament to relocate to Tshwane, in the capital city. The legislative and executive

houses must be in one city, preferably Gauteng, which is much more accessible to the people across the country than this Cape. The advent of fire should have given us the opportunity to relocate, which will save a lot of money in running the House. Already, when we were asked about constructing a temporary structure here for Parliament, he kept bringing a proposal that will cost over R600 million to just bring the structure here. That is very suspicious, but it tells you that actually Tshwane should be the only option.

 

 

Many of our members, over 50% of which are new MP’s, have not received their gadgets to connect with their constituencies. [Applause.] Parliament has been opened for over a month. Of course, more budget allocation should be given to build to more extensive support for MPs to do their legislative work, particularly the Bills Office, which also gives support for Private Members Bills.

 

Our concrete proposal, as the EFF, is that additional to play a leading role in different international forums such as Pan African Parliament, PAP, SA Development Community, SADC, and Interparliamentary Union, the 7th Parliament must play a leading role in the Brics Parliamentary Forum and make sure that each engagement and meetings take place from time to

time. This to provide adequate oversight of the developments considering the changing and dynamic global balance of forces. Yet, it is a fact that this GNU, the government of dinonyana, which was formed by the white capitalist establishment, hoped to bring everybody into a signed alliance with the national executive, thus extinguishing the opposition. It seeks to mask the contradictions of race and gender that the ruling elite has failed to resolve since the dawn of our democratic society. It sought to silence the voices of the oppressed on the urgent need for land and economic freedom in our lifetime. The decision by MK, EFF, ATM, NCC and UAT to resist and stay in the opposition benches, is not only revolutionary, but also the best act in the defence of the Constitution and is finding the value of a multiparty system of democracy. [Applause.] Our constitutional duty as Parliament is not to aid the executive or protect it or advance its interests for 30 years, one single party has dominated these benches using its majority to undermine scrutiny on the executive and accountability. The tyranny of the majority was seen in action recently in the suppression of the Phala-Phala impeachment, where the sitting President must come and answer about the reported abuses of power and possible human rights violations.

Chairperson, today this tyranny continues in the form of GNU. Many in GNU ranks have attempted to demonise those who chose to stay out of the government of dinonyana, seeking to paint them as divisive and unconstitutional. However, this band of semi-illiterate, ex-convicts and waffling careerist, know nothing about the Constitution, particularly its founding ideological arsenal. They don’t see that the progressive Caucus is the best development in strengthening parliamentary oversight. We must clearly state categorically that to criticise the executive is a constitutional duty. The GNU, which commands close to 70% of the House wants to operate without criticism. They want a situation in which they are the executive and the oversight, eliminating opposition. What a crying shame. They were already using their gangster majority to force committees, to adopt APP’s and budget of departments without scrutiny in a process of prioritising the executive and using Parliament as a mere rubber stamp.

 

 

We have scored a few victories as the progressive caucus on the new rules on speaking and sitting arrangements, as well as definitions of majority and opposition. We will still fight to integrate it in the rules that Parliament committees must be chaired by members whose political parties are not represented in the executive. Chairperson, we must reiterate that the

people of South Africa shall govern the voices of the people of South Africa shall be heard, will not be suppressed here in this Parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, the ongoing repairs to the National Assembly Chamber following the devastating fire in January 2022 have led to a second consecutive year of the state of the nation address, the budget speech and other major plenary sittings being held outside the parliamentary precinct. Today, our legislature plenary session and debate takes place in a tent. We shouldn’t be proud of a tent ...

 

 

IsiZulu:

... kwangathi sisemcimbi kwaHadebe kuhlatshiwe [Uhleko.] ...

 

 

 

English:

... who would have thought that this is where our legislative arm of the state would be confined to? This situation has exposed our weakness in reacting swiftly as an institution, when times of disaster strike us. In many ways, we draw parallel to many departments in South Africa that also face such weaknesses. We need to make tough decisions about what we should do to rebuild this, Parliament. We must fast-track the reconstruction of Parliament, budget accordingly and exercise

due diligence. After all, this is a key public institution and one that is the guardian of the lives of South Africans. While the use of Cape Town City Hall, Cape Town ICC and the Cape Good of Hope building have been a necessary patch. It is clear that these arrangements, are insufficient for the long-term needs of Parliament.

 

 

Years ago, there was a proposal to build additional offices on this very piece of land and maybe today we should revive this proposal once more. Hybrid sittings are incredibly complex, with some members facing challenges beyond our control when it comes to time to deliver their speeches. However, at the same time, I must applaud the parliamentary staff who work in the background and the table staff who run things seamlessly, even when chaos may break out. Unfortunately, I think the budget has missed the need for the construction of new buildings alongside the revival of the old ones. The budget cuts of all arms of the state are understandably a reflection of the poor economic situation the country is in.

 

 

We must look to the future and plan for a capable and revitalised state. Under the cloak of the GNU, it is no better time to come to the table and make proposals on how the future of Parliament develops. However, we must not merely look for

superficial developments. We must plan to address the criticism of where Parliament falls short in its mandate and use the room for improvement. Part of this improvement, but something that should be done with greater agency is Parliament’s Wi-Fi and connectivity. We must understand that the current limitation is that where there is an abundance of users, the speed slows down. However, we are an institution that on any day has a few thousand people on the premises. So, we must find a solution to Wi-Fi challenges on the precinct and the parks.

 

 

On the matter of committees, the IFP calls for greater capacity to be given to them regarding oversight and study tours, the committees need to spend more time investigating and probing entities who rush glossy reports together in an attempt to pull the wool over the committee’s eyes. By the end of this year, Parliament should have committees that have KPI’s that require a certain number of oversight visits per year. Our committees are needed to drive the change of each entity, and the GNU will not succeed unless Parliament plays its role in driving the change of thinking within our departments and entities. We must commit, we must continue to build capacity and professional departments in this country and committees have the power to bring about this change if

given more capacity in terms of funding. Hon Chairperson, considering the comments made, the IFP supports Budget Vote 2. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Ms S G KHOJANE: Hon Deputy President, Madam Speaker, House Chairperson, hon members, in this new political era, we as the PA will applaud the President hon Ramaphosa on the Government of National Unity, GNU, and though we have not always agreed on everything, we have now reached a unanimous consensus in order to move our country forward. The current formation means that the GNU parties have set aside their differences in order to rebuild and grow South Africa and instil renewed hope into our people.

 

 

As a newly elected and young Member of Parliament, it is imperative that we are fully equipped to serve our communities and our country as a whole. We implore that there should be continuous and vigorous training of Members of Parliament and that we are allowed sufficient time to scrutinise documentation and reports in our committees.

 

 

As the PA, we also strive for transparency as you would’ve seen from our Minister McKenzie. We also strive for inclusion of the public in all parliamentary proceedings. We seek to

educate and include, especially the most vulnerable, marginalised and poorest people so that our leaders of tomorrow can take the country forward even more.

 

From the Third to the Sixth Parliament, there was an increased focus on public participation and oversight. We acknowledge and appreciate that proceedings are more accessible to people via social media but we ask that there is further effective sharing from Parliament to citizens in the form of parliamentary media channels so that they can stay up to date.

 

 

Parliament also needs to use more official languages in order to disseminate information to the public and increase public hearings on the ground. This will facilitate a more personal and culture-centred setting that focuses on the values, beliefs and also the cultural heritage of a specific community.

 

 

During the Sixth Parliament, there was a decision to launch reinvigorated constituency offices and we will need to see this implemented in the Seventh Parliament so that all of our communities can reach us with ease. As we now move from a business as usual approach, we are now focusing more on impacts and outcomes.

Members of Parliament should be held to account for nonperformance and this should be treated and dealt with swiftly. This also speaks directly to operational excellence which is the most important theme of the macro framework of the Seventh Parliament. National, provincial and local spheres of government are distinctive, interrelated and interdependent. Thus the one cannot operate without the other. If we foster a culture of collegiality, being reminded that all of our constituencies ... in this joint House, our mandates are to deliver services to them. Then we can all agree that we cannot waste any more time on fruitless bickering.

 

 

Members of Parliament are not above ordinary citizens. We must not forget the impoverished streets that we come from. We are in the service of citizens and we remain so until we take our leave from the Assembly.

 

 

With that note I would like to say that as the PA we do support the budget for Parliament and we trust that the parties of the GNU, as well as other parties, will work together through our positions for the betterment of this country. Let the parties who focus on the past focus on the past and the rest of us join hands in order to rebuild this

country into the rainbow nation that the hon the former President and global icon Nelson Mandela envisioned. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, this place is and belongs to the people. Each seat in this Parliament belongs to the people. We are and should be the voice of the people and we shouldn’t be a rubber stamp. We shouldn’t be reduced to a rubber stamp. It is unacceptable and also an impediment to our constitutional democracy that the majority of legislation originates from the executive. Private Members’ Bills should not be born dead but should play an important role and committees should be proactive to realise and to see the voids in legislation, including outdated legislation, and to bring about the necessary amendments before the executive does that. This place necessitates oversight. That is our role. It is our duty to ensure that there is accountability to the people of South Africa.

 

 

However, to ensure oversight and accountability there must be rules in this House. There must be rules in Parliament. There must be decorum. It is a shame that the conduct of many members, especially during the past term, actually makes

today’s setting of a tent quite profound because the circus is

 

in a tent.

 

 

 

During this next term, let us avoid being a circus by setting an example to the people out there by providing real oversight and being the voice to and for the people.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Can the hon member stop mumbling and tell us when he is returning the land they stole from us? He represents land thieves.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, that is not relevant to this debate. Hon member, you are out of order.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: When are they giving our land back to us and also pay reparations for the genocide against the Khoi and the San?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, for the second time you are out of order. Hon member, I now want to formally caution you. You must first ask to be recognised and

in terms of the rules you must thereafter state what the point of order is. It’s a point for debate that you can exercise at another point, not for this purpose now. Please proceed, hon member.

 

 

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, I won’t react ...

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Wessels, will you take your seat please? Yes, hon member?

 

 

Mr V G REDDY: Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule 64. The speaker has to exercise decorum in the House. He mentioned that this is a circus. He is part of this. He must withdraw that. Is he implying that he is a clown? Are we clowns here

...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I will consult the Hansard. Thank you.

 

 

Mr V G REDDY: ... or what is it? He has to withdraw that.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Wessels, did you refer to this ...

Mr V G REDDY: ... [Inaudible.] ... Mr Bean is in the House.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, this is also a formal caution to you now. You were recognised, you raised your point of order, I listened to it and then you simply continued after that. Next time I’m going to ask you to leave the proceedings. Hon Wessels, did you refer to this sitting as a circus?

 

 

Mr W W WESSELS: No, House Chairperson, I said the conduct of certain members ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will check the Hansard. You may proceed.

 

 

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, through you to the Speaker, it is true that we do have budget constraints. As the hon Hadebe put it, the whole of South Africa is in an economic crisis and Parliament will have to learn to do more with less. We do welcome the fact that we will get a more permanent temporary venue and housing for the National Assembly. That is welcomed. Let me get to the hon Douglas.

Agb Douglas, u sien u rasse-polarisasie maak dat hierdie Huis nie werklike oorsig kan doen nie. Wanneer u ’n stem vir die mense is moet u ’n verantwoordelike stem wees en daardeur moet u vir die mense daar buite wys dat u hier is om u grondwetlike taak te vervul. Laat ek ook vir u sê, agb Douglas, as u my eiendom wil kom vat sal u sien wat gebeur. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

 

 

[Hon Douglas, your racial polarisation prevents this House from doing proper oversight. When you are a voice for the people you need to be a responsible voice whereby you prove to the people out there that you are here to fulfil your constitutional mandate. Let me also reiterate that if you want to appropriate my land, hon Douglas, you have another thing coming. I thank you.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Thank you, hon member. I now invite hon Ngobeni from Action SA. Order, hon members. Can we keep it low please? Hon members, can we give the speaker at the podium a platform to speak?

 

 

Ms L M NGOBENI: House Chairperson, the Leader of Government Business Deputy President Paul Mashatile ...

Xitsonga:

 

i nhlikani. ...

 

 

 

Sesotho:

... dumelang.

 

 

 

English:

Madam House Chair, regrettably Action SA does not support this inadequate budget. The past few weeks following the late constitution of the Cabinet have forced us into a rushed process. Committee reports, departmental annual performance plans, APPs, and budgets have been delayed and many of us still do not have our tools of trade. Even making this submission feels inadequate as documents were sent just this morning. Sudden influxes of information prevent us from making well-informed decisions and substantive submissions. We hope that this will not continue.

 

 

This Parliament must function as a bastion of innovation, leadership and competent management, and so we need adequate resources. Skilled personnel and modern infrastructure are necessary for Parliament to scrutinise legislation and hold the executive to account. Without these our ability to perform our constitutional duties is severely handicapped, undermining

the democratic process and principles upon which our nation stands. Our efforts must improve meaningful engagement with South Africans, ensuring that citizens are well informed, actively involved and heard.

 

 

Action SA believes that this Seventh Parliament must be a vigorous centre of critical engagement, upholding transparency and accountability, areas where previous Parliaments have often fallen short.

 

 

We all listened intently, especially those of us who are new to this House, during the presentation on ethics at our induction. It is then curious that if the standards are set so high as they were presented in that induction, why then do we have members here with questionable ethics, character and records? Furthermore, what is the update regarding those truly responsible for the parliamentary building burning down?

 

The stakes are simply too high this time around. The Seventh Parliament has an urgent obligation to the South African people to reset the status quo and move away from being a mere rubber-stamping exercise for the executive.

Reflecting on the state capture commission report, the need for robust oversight and accountability is pressing to prevent a repeat of past failures. As Action SA, we are unwaveringly committed to ensuring that Parliament’s performance framework for oversight and accountability is not just words on paper but marks a genuine trustworthy overhaul. We have committed to not opposing for opposition sake and with these preliminary observations Action SA can only agree with elements of this budget framework that prioritises robust oversight and accountability so that we can dispel the notion that Parliament is cumbersome.

 

 

Making this Parliament work is our collective responsibility and so we implore this House not to squander this new opportunity to build a Parliament that truly serves the people, upholds justice and embodies integrity. Thank you.

 

 

Mnu M P MSEZANE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo, bengingafuni ukuphazamisa umhlonishwa obekade ekhuluma manje kodwa isikhulumi esiphumile laphaya sithe ngesiBhunu uma sithi sifuna umhlaba, sizobona. Sikuthatha njengosongo lokho. Ngicela ubheka i-Hansard noma yini lento enisuke niyibheka le yokulalela ukuthi ubethini. Sikuthatha njengosongo lokho ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr M P MSEZANE: Thank you, Chairperson. I did not want to disturb the hon member on the podium, but that speaker said something in Afrikaans that; should we demand land restitution we shall face the consequences for doing that. We take this as a serious threat. I request that you check the Hansard or any other relevant source of checking to understand what exactly the speaker said. We take this as a serious threat...]

 

 

... highly offensive and unparliamentary. So, kindly look into that and come back to us during this same plenary.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Okay, hon member, we will do that. I’m not sure which speaker you are talking about. At least if you would ... [Interjections.]

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Mr Bean.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): There is no member who is called Mr Bean. [Laughter.] Please be in order. You can’t do that. Hon members, you’re not allowed to discriminate against another member or refer to a member by using a funny name. It is wrong. I can’t consult the Hansard without knowing which member you are referring to.

Mr M P MSEZANE: Chair, it was the member before the last one. So, kindly consult the Chair before you.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Okay, thank you. Please note that when we consult the Hansard you will not get a response today, which means that at tomorrow’s sitting whichever House Chairperson is there will come back with a response. Thank you very much. Hon Horn? There’s another hand. Yes, hon member?

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Hon House Chairperson, I rise on Rule 92, which speaks to points of order. I just request that ... because we have noted that members of the opposition just raise their hands and do not state on which rule they are standing. The rules actually dictate that members must state which rule they are standing on before they are recognised to speak. Thank you very much.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr W Horn): Acting House Chair, it has rightly been said that parliamentary debates are the cornerstone of a truly vibrant democracy. These public debates are an important part of parliamentary scrutiny of executive actions and decisions. Without debate and discussion, a democracy is reduced to a body without a soul. Malcolm X

reflected on the unique opportunity that comes with any debate in his autobiography, and I quote:

 

 

Standing up there, the faces looking at me, the things in my head coming out of my mouth, while my brain searched for the next best thing to follow what I was saying, and if I could sway them to my side by handling it right, then I had won the debate.

 

Winning debates will, of course, be very important to all parties and members who participate in debates over the next five years. Of course, it’s not necessarily the outcome of a vote if such a vote is required by the rules at the end of a debate which indicates who has really won the debate. In some instances, it may happen that quite clearly, those holding a minority view put forward arguments which are more convincing than those who hold the majority view. The only consolation in such instances is, of course, and in a democracy where the one certainty we all have is the regularity of elections, elections every five years, this should not be a small consolation. That consolation is that if majority decisions are taken without the moral basis, without being able to win the debate before a vote, the real adjudicators of who is winning debates, are never impressed.

South Africans have principles and want to see us having proper meaningful debates about the issues they care about, matters that affect the quality of their lives. It is for this reason that they have sent us here, all of us as individual members and as a collective. To enable the debate, members must enjoy freedom of speech, a right only limited and regulated by our rules. Therefore, when our rules prohibit us from insulting one another and from using abusive and offensive language, it’s about upholding the dignity and the integrity of this institution, but also, about assisting us to remember that debates are won and lost on the merit of arguments and not by the ability or willingness to insult or offend.

 

 

This is true for both sides of this House, and there is, of course, also the possibility that the nonresponsiveness and evasiveness of the executive could justifiably ... [Inaudible.] ... to frustration. Therefore, if we are to build public trust and confidence in this our National Assembly, we must all be mindful of the negative impact both the lack of decorum and the lack of a true culture of accountability will have in this regard. We accept that this is the task of not only members and parties represented in this House, but also that of the presiding officers.

As the House Chair responsible for internal arrangements, I commit to be available to listen to the concerns of members and to try and help establish a conducive working environment. The well-being of members is not a given. While there’s, of course, the argument out there, that because we are all well- remunerated and because we enjoy travel and accommodation benefits of a not insignificant monetary value and scope. The reality is that this in itself will not guarantee the well- being continue development and effectiveness of individual members. Special care will have to be taken to ensure that this Parliament is an inclusive institution.

 

 

Therefore, we will work with all stakeholders relevant to ensuring the well-being of members. The optimal and ethical use of travel privileges we enjoy, as well as other members facilities are and will remain important. Similarly, we will endeavour to work with members and the leadership of parties to ensure that every member, whether a returning member or a first termer, is afforded the necessary support, an opportunity to declare fully their interests when the time comes. There’s no reason why all members should not discharge of this duty, and we hope to not be faced with by any failures in this regard.

Both the burning down of the National Assembly, which others have referred to today, and the coronavirus disease, COVID-19, pandemic have unfortunately not only seriously damaged the buildings of Parliament, but also disrupted Parliament as an institution. The presiding officers with the Secretariat of Parliament can therefore not allow any further ... [Inaudible.] ... the rebuilding of this institution, both the brick and mortar, but also the institution, as the people. In this regard, we welcome and appreciate the assertiveness already shown by the Speaker in this regard.

 

 

While we accept that Parliament and Members of Parliament, even as a new administration, is to take co-responsibility for the fiscal constraints, that is a reality in our country and can therefore not even for a millisecond think of being exempted from the impact thereof. The reality is that this cannot excuse some of the inefficiencies that has crept into this precinct and the parliamentary villages where most of us spent much time. Last week, during the mini plenaries in which we debated the different Budget Votes, a constant theme was “the need to do more with less”.

 

 

However, certainly, this cannot mean that some of the basic services which we as members and even versus to this

Parliament are entitled to, can be delivered poorly. A simple example in this regard is the state of some of the bathroom facilities in Parliament, where more often than not, basics like hand washing soap and even hand drying facilities are not there. No budgetary constraints can allow for a situation where the existing infrastructure, both on the parliamentary precinct or in the parliamentary villages, is allowed to fall into a state of this repair due to a lack of maintenance, to the point that it would ultimately require replacement. This is the type of maladministration that must be rooted out in our management of public facilities. Therefore, we will embark on a process together with different management forums to ensure that management agreements are properly implemented on a value for money basis and where delivery areas are not covered by agreements, we will work with public service to ensure that there’s no loopholes, deficiencies and weaknesses.

 

 

In conclusion, our message to the executive in this regard is while we as legislatures do not carry any sword in any fight for luxury, an urgent need exists for basic maintenance of infrastructure, a need that must be addressed, both because it’s needed to preserve assets belonging to the public, but also because it partially informs the well-being of members. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Acting House Chair, many speakers have referred to the imperative of Parliament exercising oversight and accountability of the executive, and we from the ACDP fully support that we need an improvement of oversight and accountability. When one has regard to the Zondo Commission, it found then that Parliament was severely wanting in exercising that effective parliamentary oversight, and that this contributed to state capture and corruption.

 

 

Madam Acting House Chair, through you to Madam Speaker, we had some very effective parliamentary inquiries. If one has regard to the Eskom parliamentary inquiry that was not a case of a department coming and making a presentation, and each one asks a question, there we were given an hour, each MP, to engage deeply into those issues. Similar with the Thabo Bester inquiry, and I would urge you, Madam Speaker, that we have similar deep-rooted inquiries because the pursuit of effective oversight, it must be tireless and rigorous, constructive and evidence based. It must be to allow us to ask the tough questions, but one needs follow-up questions. You need to be able to cross-examine and get to the heart of a matter. I’m sure that that is something we can really emphasise in this Parliament.

We have not started very well given the extraordinary haste with which the departmental annual performance plan, APPs, and budgets had to be considered to meet the deadline. The statutory deadline at the end of July. Now, the ACDP proposes that the statutory deadline to finalise the budget should be amended, particularly in an election year, to avoid such a recurrence.

 

 

The ACDP has chosen not to be part of the Government of National Unity, GNU, at this stage and we choose to align ourselves with those who wish to build as we put South Africa first. Therefore, we wish, let us make it very clear, we pray and wish the GNU every success because its success will be the nation’s success. However, there’s a need for a centrist constructive opposition caucus that is the role the ACDP has played over the years, and that is the role we will continue to play.

 

As we are starting to rebuild the walls of a fire ravaged Parliament, may we also start rebuilding and restoring the moral fibre of our nation. If one has regard to the tree design of the new Parliament, may this Seventh Parliament, indeed, be a symbol of the tree of life whose leaves will we pray be for the healing of our nation, ravaged by crime and

violence, high levels of unemployment and poverty, racism and may be healing, may the leaves be healing for nations around us. I hope the food makes the heart sick, but the long fulfilled is a tree of life. Let us work together to fulfil the hope for all our citizens. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

 

IsiXhosa:

Mnu. N L S KWANKWA: Molweni, torhwana. Andisayi kukhumsha tuu ke mna. Ingxaki iqala kulento yokuba ndithetha imizuzu emithathu ingathi ndilinqalathi kodwa kudala silapha sade saphinda saba kuRhulumente woBumbano weSizwe. Le nto yethu yokwakhiwa ePalamente iyandixaka mna kuba sithetha ngekati esengxoweni...

 

 

English:

 

... because we are talking about R4 billion and the challenge specifically, has to do with the reconstruction of Parliament.

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Siyavuya ke xa ide yafika, kuba kudala siyicela le ngxelo ukuba mayize kuthi – hayi andingxamanga, ndiza kuphikisa mna. Uyipasisa kanjani into ongayibonanga? Enye into, yile yale nkxaso-mali yePalamente ekwakudala sithetha ngayo. Saqala ukuyivusa le nto ngexesha likaBaleka Mbethe. Kunini sithetha

into enye, sixhentsa kwindawo enye ingathi ligqirha eliphoswe ngumhlola. Asiveli nanto ebambekayo konke, konke. Ndidikiwe zizinto ezingahambeli phambili ezifana naleParMed. Aziqhubeli phambili iintlanganiso esizibambayo ngale miba.

 

 

English:

 

Public Hearings of Parliament, especially the finance sector...

 

IsiXhosa:

 

... zisoloko izizinto zabamhlophe, abantu abasebenzisa isiNgesi esikhulu kuba abantu bethu asikwazanga ukubenza bawuqonde umsebenzi wePalamente...

 

 

English:

 

 ... so that they can be able to influence the processes of Parliament.

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Ndiyabeva naba bakhuzayo. Ndiza kuqubisana nabo kungekudala. Omnye umcimbi ofuna ukubaluleka, Somlomo...

 

 

English:

...we need to determine a proper flow of these budget votes so that...

 

 

IsiXhosa:

... singabane siqweqwediswa apha ingathi linqalathi lomkhwetha entabeni. Kufuneka siyazi kakuhle ngoku ukuba...

 

English:

 

... what is the process flow so that ...

 

 

 

IsiXhosa:

... nabo, xa besithi bafuna ukuseka nokuchaza iKhabhinethi bayazi...

 

English:

 

... that there is a process that Parliament follows with clear timeframes of how to process these things. When we were reading these reports, most of them have no substance, primarily because members are new and have not been workshopped. [Interjections.]

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Bendikhona, lamasela! [Kwaqhwatywa.]

English:

 

The other issue that is also particularly important is translation and language editing of the reports because...

 

IsiXhosa:

 

... iyancedisa kuba ezi ngxelo ziyasetyenziswa, zifundwe naphaya ngaphandle, Somlomo.

 

 

English:

We also we had a problem in the past, where the Speaker had to reign over members of the executive to answer questions.

Perhaps, in future we need to adopt a rule, I think it is in Ghana, where there is a motion of censure to a member of the executive who shows truant conduct, when it comes to that.

That could also be a rule that we can debate in Parliament.

 

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Okokugqibela, phambi kokuba ndihlale phantsi, Somlomo, ndiza kunigada. Andifakwanga libazisa mna njengokuba ndikuRhulumente woBumbano weSizwe. Ndiza kunigada, ningamoshi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

 

 

Xitsonga:

 

Tat S M GANA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.

English:

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Order, hon members, can we give the hon member on the podium an opportunity to speak?

 

Xitsonga:

 

Tat S M GANA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.

 

 

English:

 

Hon members, we have been elected to represent the people of our country and to ensure a government based on the will of the people. We are the people’s Parliament. It is our job collectively and individually, to pass legislation and scrutinize and oversee the actions of the executive. Our democracy will work when the people participate. Parliament will work when the people of this country participate.

 

Thus, we need to use this budget to get the people of our country participating in the affairs of this Parliament. Public participation should not be done merely to comply with legislation. It needs to be done meaningfully, and it needs to be preceded with public education. We need to use the budget to educate the public about the work we do in this House and how it affects the lives of our fellow South Africans,

especially those that are yet to taste the fruits of our democracy.

 

 

We need to use this budget to counter disinformation and misinformation about our constitutional democracy and the work that this Parliament does. The voters who sent us here want to see the best of South Africa in us. As Rise Mzantsi, we do not take this responsibility lightly. We have committed to use our positions in Parliament to serve with honesty and integrity and to be serious in how we do our jobs as parliamentarians.

South Africans do not expect from us to see theatrics in this House. They expect us to take ourselves seriously. They expect us to take them seriously.

 

As Rise Mzantsi, we have committed to co-operate with other political parties and parliamentarians. For us the colour of the T-shirt, one wore during the campaign will not matter, if what we do is for the benefit of all South Africans.

 

 

Xitsonga:

Tatana Mashatile ...

 

 

 

English:

... in this administration, we want to see a closer working relationship between the executive and the Parliament. We expect to see Ministers and Deputy Ministers available to account to portfolio committees and to this Parliament. It is not a favour. That is what everyone of you signed up for.

Given that some of the members in the executive, were in the opposition benches in the in the last term, we expect them to answer questions timeously and give quality answers as they know the frustrations.

 

 

We all remember the criticism that Parliament endured both in the encounter judgment and the Zondo Commission. We cannot afford to repeat the same mistakes. I can assure you, Madam Speaker, that we, Rise Mzantsi, will not use our positions to protect the President, Deputy President and the Ministers who do not take their responsibilities seriously, and we will support this budget.

 

Ms N L WEBSTER: Hon House Chairperson, hon members of the House, good afternoon. For years I watched parliamentary debates as an ordinary citizen, debates that were mostly filled with petty exchanges, personal vendettas and political protectionism, and often wondered when will the work of this Parliament become about, as ordinary citizens. Today we stand

at a critical moment in our country when there are too many homes where there is not even one job where the impacts and effects of crime have us paralyzed in fear. Where there are too many young people whose future has been stolen by an education system that does not set them up to survive in a competitive world.

 

 

Now more than ever, the work of this august House must be about the people, the 61 million South Africans. But Parliament will only serve the 61 million South Africans when we have politicians who stand on principle, who are not swayed by the promise of power, relevance or proximity to wealth.

Recent responses to the President’s failed promises show that what was a former opposition has become a product of transactions of power, relevance and proximity to wealth.

 

Just the other day, the DA was campaigning for a trimmed Cabinet of 15 Ministries, a few Deputy Ministers and a cut Cabinet perks bill. But today that has vanished from their agenda. There are other matters that have vanished from their agenda, which cannot be swept under the carpet. Matters of national importance under the previous administration, such as state capture and its reports and these must be revived.

The Government of National Unity, GNU has an unintended consequence, and that is of weakening Parliament’s accountability role. Currently, 70% of Parliament is part of the GNU, and we must avoid sacrificing accountability for government unity. If indeed, it is to be about the 61 million, Parliament’s rules need amending to reflect the new political composition of the National Assembly.

 

 

The R804 million budget for legislation and oversight cannot be wasted by allowing government to perform oversight functions over itself. If it is to be about the 61 million, constituency work must be strengthened as a key part of MP’s scope. Time spent in constituencies with citizens listening to and resolving issues is critical. The budget should reflect this and more should be given to constituency work.

 

Finally, as Bosa, we support the establishment of a Standing Committee on the Presidency, because if it is to be about the

61 million, the President, as the head of the executive, should, too, be better held to accountability by Parliament. I thank you.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

Mnu. V ZUNGULA: Mandithathe eli thuba, ndibulise iinkokheli ezithembekileyo ze-Progressive Caucus. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

 

 

English:

There is this growing narrative, particularly from the right- wing parties, who claim to be pro-Constitution but are driving an anticonstitutional agenda. The portrayal of a progressive opposition parties as disruptors is fuelled by anticonstitutional propaganda aimed at undermining the essential role of opposition in a constitutional democracy.

Mainstream media has also contributed to perpetuating this narrative. Anyone who wants to build this country should welcome the opposition, particularly because they know the importance of having an opposition in terms of ensuring that there is going to be accountability.

 

 

The Seventh Parliament must be the voice and defender of the people as the ATM, we are going to introduce Bills targeting the country’s pressing issues. The first one, is the Foreign Agents Bill that will be sponsored to designate all foreign funded NGO’s and entities as foreign agents. These NGOs and entities are actively in the political terrain, on behalf of their foreign funders, who want to advance foreign interest in our country. This measure is crucial to ensure the domestic

policies and decisions are made by South Africans for South Africa without undue foreign influence. By identifying and regulating these foreign agents, we aim to safeguard our sovereignty and promote transparency. The people must govern, not foreign funded NGO.

 

 

There must be a parliamentary inquiry to investigate certain matters in our country. The first one, is the Rand manipulation and unethical practices of the banks. Parliament as the voice of the people needs to investigate the systematic impoverishment of our people by the banking sector. The second one, is the George building collapse. Thirty four people died at George and the country just kept it moving.

 

The Sixth Parliament violated section 42(3) of the Constitution by failing to scrutinize the conduct of the President on the Phala Phala matter. [Applause.] The independent panel report has not been set aside by any court of law. That report must be thoroughly processed by Parliament. The Government of National Unity hypocrites who wanted Mr Ramaphosa to account before the elections might change their minds now that they are in Cabinet.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

Amawexu-wexu, amaphixi-phixi, amamenemene namanyoronyoro...

 

 

 

English:

 

The President will account...

 

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

... ethanda, engathandi.

 

 

 

English:

Thank you.

 

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chairperson, meeting here today in a marquee tent in a parking area is symbolic in a number of ways. It bears testimony to the extremely challenging time we went through as a Parliament during the Sixth Parliament. No one could have foreseen the devastating virus that wreaked havoc throughout the world. None of us elected to serve in the Sixth Parliament could have imagined that we would have to work from home. And, just when we had sight of a possible return to normality, the unthinkable happened. The Parliament building housing the National Assembly, offices and meeting venues, was razed to the ground; an event that placed the legislative authority of this country before one of its greatest challenges, something that could’ve been prevented.

So, us meeting here in a marquee tent is testimony to a Sixth Parliament that had to deal with challenges that none could have foreseen.

 

On a different level, today also symbolises a Parliament, the Seventh Parliament, that will not be deterred by events, that will not give in to the possibly more convenient and comfortable option of going fully virtual whilst the NA building is being rebuilt. This venue, as imperfect as it may be, should be seen as this Seventh Parliament’s commitment to serve the people of South Africa no matter what. Parliament should be seen to be working in service of our country and its people.

 

 

Parliament’s annual performance plan focuses on a new macro strategic framework for the Seventh Parliament that positions Parliament to be a transformative Parliament based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights. This framework is anchored on five pillars, namely a responsive Parliament, a caring Parliament, an intervening Parliament, collaborative engagement and effective stakeholder engagement.

However, within the context of a drastic budget cut it will require a rethinking of how this Parliament will achieve what is envisaged in the strategic framework. The crux of the matter is however, that for Parliament to work, for it to be a responsive, caring, intervening and collaborative Parliament, Members of Parliament have to work and have to be able to work.

 

 

It is with this in mind that I considered the responsibilities that the Speaker has assigned to me as Deputy Speaker. It became clear that many of these matters have either not been fully optimised or have been neglected during the time of the pandemic and as a result of the budget constraints that Parliament is facing, or they are just not considered or valued sufficiently for the critical role they play in allowing members to function optimally.

 

 

As Members of Parliament, we are expected to be at the top of our game. We have to be able to fully participate in the committees we serve in, to understand budgets and the budget process. We have to understand the legislative process and be able to interrogate Bills before committee. We also have to be able to exercise in-depth and comprehensive oversight.

Members are seldom prepared for all these responsibilities and Parliament has a role to play in enhancing the capacity of all members. As one of my assigned responsibilities, members’ training and capacity-building will have to be reassessed and a thorough study be done of what the needs of members really are as well as the most cost-effective ways in which this can be addressed.

 

 

As Members of Parliament, we cannot fulfil our commitment to the people of the country if we are not able or capable of doing what is required of us. In this regard, the support, specifically research support provided to committees in Parliament, is also of critical importance.

 

Another area is information and communication technology. As Parliament is moving towards the implementation of a greater level of a paperless, digital online dispensation, so to members have to be trained and capacitated to use technology to the fullest extent. This will form part of training and capacity-building going forward. Hon Maotwe, you raised a very important issue regarding the issuing of devices; the tools of trade. This has to be addressed. It cannot be that you still don’t have it.

At the same time, Parliament itself has to proceed at a more rapid pace to ensure that we utilise the advantages of technology to improve Parliament’s performance and our communication and interaction with the public. We have to embrace the possibilities of, for example artificial intelligence, AI, but similarly we have to be informed sufficiently to avoid the dangers inherent to AI.

 

 

Another responsibility is something very close to me heart and that is the language policy of Parliament and the implementation thereof. The 12 official languages are one of the great assets of our country and of Parliament. We should all be able to express ourselves in the language that we feel comfortable in.

 

 

Afrikaans:

Dit was baie duidelik tydens die mini-sittings wat ons oor die begroting gehad het dat daar groot frustrasie was oor die gebruik van ons eie tale aangesien ons gelyktydig drie verskillende komitees gehad het en ons nie voldoende tolkdienste gehad het nie. Dit is iets waarna ons moet kyk.

Ons sal nuut daarna moet kyk. Ons sal na nuwe tegnologie moet kyk sodat ons dit vir lede moontlik maak om die taal van hul keuse te kan gebruik in alle komitees en ook in alle sittings.

Ek wil ook vir die tolke baie dankie sê vir die ongelooflike, onbaatsugtige werk wat hulle verrig het deur voltyds aan diens vir hierdie belangrike taak te wees.

 

English:

 

Again, we have to understand the reality of working within the confines of a drastically reduced budget allocation which has a negative effect on what Parliament can provide. However, this does not and cannot keep us from thinking new, and working differently and more productively.

 

Parliament has a lot of ground to cover in the Seventh Parliament in order to regain the trust and respect of South Africans. It is our responsibility to regain that trust and responsibility. Of course, we don’t have ideal conditions as is evident today but we have to make it work. We have to make sure that every rand spent in Parliament makes a positive, constructive contribution and that we work on the basis of transparency and inclusivity. We have to do everything possible to enable members to be responsive and caring, and to intervene when required. This Seventh Parliament should embody the hope of all South Africans to live a life of dignity and prosperity, and this Parliament should set the tone. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr C M DUGMORE: House Chairperson, I’m not sure if our leader of government business -yes, the Deputy President, the Speaker is also here. Hon members, I think we are all aware that Chapter 4 of the Constitution outlines very clearly the role of Parliament, as that of making laws ensuring that the executive organs of state account to it. And also maintaining oversight of the national executive, including the implementation of legislation.

 

 

When it comes to this House, we as the ANC members and comrades deployed in this House are committed to playing our role in regard to oversight without fear or favour. As the ANC, we support this Budget Vote.

 

 

House Chair, I think it’s important just to also observe that when the DA Chief Whip spoke, he had some negative things to say about the pace at which the Parliament is being rebuilt. Then he made this comment and said that here in Cape Town skyscrapers, go up very quickly. I think we need to remind the hon Chief of the DA that where his party is governing in George, they built a building that collapsed and killed over

30 people and the premier of his province has refused to appoint a commission of inquiry in George. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): I’m sorry hon Gugmore. Hon members, please let us not drown the speaker on the podium.

 

Mr C M DUGMORE: Thank you Chair. The EFF has also come here, and they’ve talked about the issue of moving Parliament. I think all of us are aware that in terms of 42(6) an Act of Parliament needs to be introduced and passed to change the venue of Parliament. But maybe if the EFF is serious about that, they should bring that to this House.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Kodwa kufuneka niqonde ukuba siza kubaxelela abantu baseNtshona Koloni ukuba nina nifuna ukuba siye eGauteng ...

 

 

English:

... and how many jobs will be lost here. So, let’s not be emotional about this issue. Let’s look at it but we will tell the people of the Western Cape that the EFF wants to move this Parliament, but let’s discuss it.

 

 

Hon Douglas, you know the black industrialist programme is a programme of the ANC and by black we mean African, coloured and Indian. That programme is a policy of the ANC which

started way back and it in fact continues today. So, let’s not come here and make opportunist statements about this leader being more committed to black industrialists than the other.

Because African, coloured and Indian black industrialists have been supported.

 

 

Also, it was the Sixth Administration, this Parliament that passed a transformative piece of legislation in terms of the Expropriation Bill. Something that the previous administration had not been able to do. That Bill provides for no compensation and broadens the definition of expropriation of a 1966 piece of legislation. This organisation, the ANC remains committed to the transformative process of our laws.

 

When laws are made by this House and are assented to by the President, we need as members to ensure that we monitor implementation very closely. It’s our responsibility to do this work without fear or favour always guided by the oath of office we have assented to. As the ANC, we are encouraged by the Statement of Intent which has been signed by all parties of the Government of National Unity, GNU. The Statement of Intent reaffirms the collective commitment to the founding values of this Constitution and its preamble.

Among the foundational principles are those of social justice, redress and alleviation of poverty. The Statement of Intent also makes it clear that the GNU will include co-operation both at the executive level, but also here in Parliament. I think we need to pay tribute to the Sixth Parliament as we say that ANC members in this Seventh Parliament will continue to support legislation which aims at transforming our society.

 

 

Let’s look at what the previous Sixth Parliament passed. The National Health Insurance legislation, the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill, the Expropriation Bill, the Pension Fund Amendment Bill which workers and organisers had been calling for. Prevention and Combating of Hate Crimes and Hate Speech Bill was passed by this previous Parliament and national laws on gender-based violence.

 

That is the transformative record of legislation that this House must continue. I would indicate that we as the ANC are fully prepared to play that role and not take seriously some notion of us being so-called neoliberals. We are committed to change this country to transform it because we are busy with a national democratic revolution as the ANC. Thank you.

Mr F ADAMS: House Chair, hon Speaker, hon members, the NCC cannot support this Budget Vote. It cannot support this Budget Vote because it took our President three weeks to put together the so-called Government of National Unity, which gave small parties like ourselves very little time to scrutinise. But I will tell you what we picked up.

 

 

What we picked up is that Parliament is not accessible to the public. Parliament works too slowly. For parties like us, for which everything is an urgency, things just don’t get done quick enough. In addition to that, a little bit of digging House Chair, you will find out that the company that was tasked with demolishing what was left of Parliament has a history of delays and has been fined for price-fixing.

 

 

When we dealt a little deeper House Chair, we found out that Parliament has appointed a maintenance contractor, which is a construction company called ... [Inaudible.] There is a difference between maintenance and construction, and that is a red flag to us. If this is how we are going to use the struggling taxpayers’ money, we cannot under any circumstances support this budget.

The NCC reiterates its call for a state-owned construction company to do the major construction works. This construction company will employ bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers and painters and give these people a living wage with medical aid and a pension. At the moment what we’re doing is we’re creating a handful of millionaires with every big construction project.

 

 

House Chair, it is time that the people who do the toiling benefit. People like me, construction workers once our knees and our backs ... [Inaudible] ... we end up in the cycle of generational poverty after having given your life to build this country. It is unfair. House Chair, I’m going to end with the following, as we have looked at this budget and I speak to the GNU, in this budget you have planted the seed of the second revolution.

 

 

In this budget you have ensured the oppression of our people for another five years. I can guarantee you House Chair, that the hungry, the oppressed, the homeless, the illiterate, the waterless are coming. I want to caution you House Chair when I say to you, the battle lines in this Parliament have been drawn between those of us that embrace and cherish the values

of the Freedom Charter and those of you trample on it with your newfound comrades. Thank you.

 

 

Mr L W MAHLATSI: Greetings House Chair and the progressive caucus.

 

 

Sesotho:

Kgotso, Maafrika.

 

 

English:

 

The UAT does not support this budget. We believe that Parliament by its very definition, should be a true mouthpiece of the people. It should echo the voices of the dispossessed, the landless and the marginalised. Yet the current status quo falls short of a noble goal. Our legislative body must be more to bridge the gap between the governed and those who govern.

 

 

This Parliament must ensure that the Seventh Administration cannot be seen as shielding the executive from accountability. We must uphold the principle of justice and fairness, ensure that no one is above the law, regardless of their position.

Shielding the executive from accountability undermines the very essence of our democracy and the load and trust that our people have placed in us. The marginalised, those who struggle

daily against the tide of poverty, unemployment and lack of access to basic services need a Parliament that is unwavering in its commitment to social justice.

 

Parliament must support the Members of Parliament and ensure that they create policies that uplift our people, provide free education, free healthcare and economic opportunities. It is our duty to dismantle the barriers of that keeps so many of our fellow citizens trapped in the cycle of poverty.

 

 

In this House, the political consideration and affiliation must never overshadow the primary duty to serve our people. Accountability must not be sacrificed at the altar of political expediency. When the executive is held to account, it is not the act of political manoeuvring, but the fundamental exercise of our democratic responsibility. The executive reports to the Parliament, because it is the Parliament that must embody the will of the people.

 

 

I want to take this phrase from Dr Sindani that says, as Marxist we look at issue from the from the class analysis. But with the GNU and the composition of white power, in the next five years, we must raise our black consciousness above our class consciousness.

Xitsonga:

 

Khanimaba.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon House Chairperson, hon Speaker, hon members of the executive, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to express our deepest condolences on the passing of the former Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr Kasper Hahndiek, who passed away on 14 July 2024, as previously expressed by the Speaker and the Chairperson of Council.

 

Mr Hahndiek, who retired in 2006, after an illustrious career spending 36 years, was a stalwart of parliamentary procedure and administration. As the House Secretary, he served as the procedural advisor to the presiding officers of the House and played a pivotal role in the administration of Assembly business. We extend our deepest sympathy to Mr Hahndiek’s family, friends, colleagues and the many members and political parties he served with, with his consummate professionalism, humility, impartiality, selflessness and commitment to a rule- based engagement in parliamentary proceedings.

 

 

Hon members, in his address last Thursday on the occasion of the opening of Parliament and earlier today in the reply to

the debate, President Cyril Ramaphosa stated, amongst others, and I want to quote: “The importance of building a capable, ethical developmental state”. The President also stated: “In 1994 we achieved the democratic breakthrough that many believed was impossible. As this Parliament, we must hold firm”.

 

 

With the executive we have a shared but different responsibility to harness our collective efforts and skills to address the triple challenge of poverty, inequality and unemployment. As Parliament, we, as the legislative arm of the state, must build on the work done previously to improve our efforts to represent the people and show executive accountability and process quality legislation in pursuit of a developmental state as espoused by the President. To borrow the President’s word, we must hold firm in terms of all three.

 

 

Parliament’s distinct oversight role must ensure that departmental strategic plans reflect measurable programmes, time frames and budget allocation that is geared towards the attainment of the targets set out in the National Development Plan, NDP, Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs and Agenda 2063. In particular, emphasis must be on the action that is required to adapt and mitigate against the destruction

associated with climate change occurrences that proportionately affects poor people more than others.

 

 

The Sixth Parliament identified the list of strategic priorities which this Parliament must build on, especially the additional attention that must be given to its core business committees. Committees are often referred to as the engine rooms of Parliament. However, low budget allocations, high vacancy rates in senior management, insufficient office space, lack of committee venues and so forth impact negatively on the output of the committees. Parliament surely cannot continue like this in its quest to fulfil its constitutional obligations as a separate independent arm of the state when these challenges persist.

 

 

The report on state capture noted certain deficiencies in parliamentary oversight and proposed measures to address this. Some of these refer to the committee system that require attention and the lack of monitoring and tracking of House resolutions. Others refer to matters of the Rules Committee, and that is currently being attended to in the subcommittee on Rules.

The various committees of the Sixth Parliament were seized with a number of issues specific to their mandates and the Rules Committee received quarterly reports on the progress made on specific recommendations made by the commission. To build on our successes and facilitate continuity, committees in the Sixth Parliament adopted legacy reports that can be utilised by the Seventh Parliament to ensure that members who start their first term get off on a solid footing and also to allow those who continue when serving new committees to get sufficient background information.

 

 

In pursuit of our oversight and accountability, Parliament is supported by a number of independent public institutions, and these research reports, oversight findings and recommendations, as well as reports on audit outcomes, will be very useful for members to do their work.

 

 

I now want to turn to a very important matter that is one of the core businesses of Parliament and Members of Parliament, and that is the law-making process. On Tuesday 30 May, the Constitutional Court handed down judgment in an application brought by certain individuals as well as the organisations that they represent. The applicants applied directly to the court for an order to declare a certain piece of legislation -

the Traditional and Khoi-San Leadership Act 3 of 2019 - unconstitutional.

 

 

Although Parliament has a discretion to determine the manner in which it must fulfil its obligations to facilitate public participation, the processes followed must be reasonable. This is the standard for public involvement established by the court in previous judgment.

 

On an assessment of the public participation process as followed by Parliament, the court held that Parliament and the provincial legislators overwhelmingly failed to fulfil their constitutional obligations to facilitate a reasonable public participation process. The question is, what are we going to do in the Seventh Parliament to address this?

 

 

Disappointingly, this judgment comes after Parliament and the legislative sector collectively spent approximately more than R20 million on public participation processes, which prove now to be futile. Glaringly poor and insufficient record keeping in the administration, made it impossible for the parliamentary legal services to file comprehensive papers and supporting documents with the court. What we need to do, and that will be addressed, is the following:

We must now focus on the quality of public participation. In this respect, the hon Speaker has designated public participation as one of the key performance indicators in her office, and that is assigned to the House Chairperson responsible for committees and oversight. The remedial measures are aimed to address the systemic weaknesses in the committee system, as pointed out by the court. It’s also geared to ensure professional administrative support and execution of public participation processes that strive towards quality and excellence in the law-making process in Parliament.

 

 

Hon members, as I move towards conclusion, we must be mindful that many South Africans remain beset by poverty, with limited opportunities for a better life, and economic growth is still stubbornly slow. Crime and violence have become a commonplace in our communities.

 

The Nigerian poet and novelist, Ben Okri said, and I want to quote: “Human life has equal value”. Our collective efforts as parliamentarians must be geared towards improving the lives of our people, especially the poor and the economically marginalised in society, to indeed ensure that human life has equal value. I thank you for your kind attention.

IsiXhosa:

 

Mnu B B NODADA: Somlomo, malungu ahloniphekileyo, bantu baseMzantsi Afrika, ndiyanibulisa ngale njikalanga, molweni.

 

English:

 

The theme for the Government of National Unity, GNU, focuses on builders vs breakers. As a member of a key party to that unity, it would be remiss of me to not look at Parliament through that lens. We must never forget that being Members of Parliament and the executive is not just a great privilege, it comes with great responsibility – something too often forgotten by some in this House it seems. We need to learn from the past if we want to build a successful future for all South Africans.

 

 

The Sixth Parliament was filled with both builders and breakers. Unfortunately, it often seems that there were more of the latter than the former. We saw this in the wilful dereliction of duties or rubberstamping of harmful legislation. We saw this when committees undertook public participation at an average cost of R300 000 per public hearing per district – a whopping R900 000 per province – but refused to listen to the input of the people. We saw this when

committees flaunted procedure in order to push through legislation.

 

 

The National Health Insurance, NHI, Act, and the Basic Education Laws Amendment, BELA, Bill would surely not have survived the process if the health and basic education committees took their duties of facilitating public participation or the work of the National Council of Provinces seriously. Instead of taking on board the inputs from experts, civil society, and people in those respective industries, the NHI and BELA Bill were steamrolled through Parliament, hardly giving the NCOP time to do its job before steamrolling it through there.

 

 

The question is, why spend this money if the intention is to simply ignore inputs and rubberstamp legislation? This culture in this Seventh Parliament has to change so as to give due diligence in the legislative making process and make sure that we hear all those that are involved.

 

 

We, as Members of Parliament, need to understand that what we do is not removed from the struggles of our people. It has a direct impact on their lives and can either make it better or infinitely worse. Whether we build or break is not just a

political chess game; it affects whether we have reliable power supply for our homes and businesses, whether we have safe and reliable water in our homes, whether our ports can import and export goods without hassle, whether our children can read, write, and do basic mathematics, and can learn in safe environments that inspire in them for the future. It affects whether the economy is enabled to grow, and people have jobs, our ability to effectively fight crime, and fix broken infrastructure. It affects whether people are able to put food on the table and fight poverty. For too many South Africans, the answer is still a resounding no.

 

 

However, we have an opportunity now - a rare chance to turn the Titanic before we hit the iceberg. It will be hard work and it will take unprecedented co-operation and trust, but we can make this work. We give constructive criticism because we want to build together and not call out anyone specifically. It will require a different mindset from us all. It will require the study of international best practices to ensure that our Government of National Unity not only goes the distance, but sows prosperity along the way.

 

 

We will need patience, innovation, and trust that all GNU

parties have South Africa’s best interest at heart and is not

looking for any excuse or loophole to enrich themselves while vulnerable citizens suffer. We must ensure that we are worthy of the trust South Africans placed in us. That is why we must revive the coalition Bills so that as legislators we are able to set laws that will guide how we form government in the future, to provide certainty and stability where no party has a majority.

 

 

We must not only fix the National Assembly building that went up in flames, but also build up the institution of Parliament by ensuring that all vacancies are filled with permanent personnel to support the critical work we do of oversight and law making.

 

Parliament must be robust and deal with the issues of South Africans. We must hold the executive and Members of Parliament to account, including making sure that we shield this institution from questionable characters that have been impeached elsewhere.

 

 

In that regard, we agree with the hon Maotwe of the EFF, that accountability is key, and that is why as the DA we have written to the police portfolio committee regarding the stalled VBS investigation. The South African Police Services,

Saps, must explain to the committee why they failed to provide any updates on the status of their investigations six years after the DA laid criminal charges against the EFF’s hon member seating in this House over allegations of corruption and industrial scale looting of the now defunct VBS bank.

 

 

In the case of VBS, as with all cases of alleged corruption, including state capture, it is poor and vulnerable citizens who suffer the most. It is the people we are meant to serve. Not a single Member of Parliament is here on their own behest; we are honoured to serve because the voters have decided to put us here.

 

Madam Speaker, as the Deputy Chief Whip of the second largest party in Parliament, I can assure you that our caucus team looks forward to working with all those who seek to build so we can tangibly change people’s lives for the better on the ground. The DA will use this House to ensure that we build Parliament and make sure that it is a Parliament of builders and not breakers.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Asizanga kudiliza apha. Silapha ukuze sakhe ikamza labantu baseMzantsi Afrika. Ndiyabulela.

Ms S E LUCAS: Hon House Chair, Speaker of the National Assembly, Deputy Speaker, our Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Paul Mashatile, members of the National Assembly, our guests, ladies and gentlemen, I think we said we are speaking about Budget Vote 2 – Parliament. Fortunately, all of us are Members of Parliament. So, even if we differ today, we will still be operating as Parliament. Can we get that assurance, Speaker. Anyone who doesn’t want us will still be working with us, and we thank them for that. Before I start with my speech, I really just want to ask members to be very calm. Really, it can happen that we can get strokes and heart attack here. We are very cautious about that. Speaker, please, our health and wellness, we must make sure that all members understand that very clearly. I have not mentioned anyone’s name. So, please, don’t take it personally.

 

 

Let me start - South Africans foreign policy is an expression of the country’s domestic public policy, which project the democratic values of our nation. These values are entrenched in the provisions of the 1996 Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which affirm the right of the South African society to live in dignity, equality, democracy and freedom. In this light, South African Parliament international engagement supports and reflects the values enshrined in our

Constitution. These values also find expression in the aspirations of the AU Agenda 2063 strategy, the Southern African, Development Community, SADC, Regional Indicative, Strategic Development Plan, RISDP, and South Africa National Development Plan. NDP, vision 2030.

 

 

Hon members, Parliamentary Strategic Development Plans has over the years placed prime importance on increasing its capacity to represent the interest of South Africa in the international arena. The evolving geopolitical landscape globally has also enabled the South African Parliament to play a critical role in repositioning and advancing national interest in the global arena. Through our work in the global arena, we have further sought to promote and facilitate the transformation of undemocratic governance structures in participating and rule-based systems, which seeks to democratise multilateral institutions processes.

 

As we have done in the past, we must continue to focus on building strategic partnership around mutual interest while promoting internationalism and solidarity. We need to ensure that the place is at the centre of our work.

The interconnectedness of challenges amongst African countries specifically in developing nations to find African solutions for African problems. We must therefore, place at the core of our work. The importance of economic diplomacy is an important leverage to advance inclusive economic growth those amongst nations of the global South while using Inter-Parliamentary Diplomacy as a tool to advance engagement and partnership.

 

 

We must continue to provide leadership on matters that seeks to entrench democratic values, social justice, the rule of law and fundamental human rights. Furthermore, gender equality, development of women and youth are equally important priorities as we continue to engage on international platforms. on the African arena agenda, we must ensure continuity strategic participation in the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum and the Pan-African Parliament.

 

We need to deepen participation in Inter-Parliamentary Multilateral Relations processes, which include the south co- operation and north south relations as manifested by the South African Parliament engagement in the Inter-Parliamentary Union.

Furthermore, in the context of the IPU, we must ensure that we strategically prioritise the importance of the non-alliance movement as a critical instrument of co-ordination amongst the nations of the global south.

 

 

Hon members, the recent ICJ ruling that Israel’s long-term occupation of Palestinian territory are unlawful and further declaring that it amounted de facto annexation is indeed an overwhelming victory for the people of Palestine and for South Africa who drove that specific agenda. It also affirms South Africans position on this matter, which we have consistently raised on the IPU assembly platforms. This brave step by the South African government greatly contributed to our ability as representatives at the Inter-Parliamentary Union to unite Africa as well as the Arab region as well as the middle east at the recent IPU conference where we were able to make sure that South Africa really take leadership as a country that carry the interest of the world. It is in line with our objective of making sure that we have a better world order.

 

 

Hon members, further engagement on international forum platforms includes our participation in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association where our former Deputy Speaker, the

hon Lechesa, served as an executive member responsible for gender.

 

 

I have also been deployed by the same Commonwealth Parliamentary Association to induct the Indian Parliament recently after their elections.

 

 

The African, Caribbean and Pacific European Union as well as Parliamentary Bilateral Relations. As we deepen Parliamentary Diplomacy and Multilateral in the 7th Parliament, we must continue to do so guided by the imperative to advance South African’s national interest.

 

Hon Speaker, the hosting of the 9th Brics Parliamentary Forum saw the adoption of the memorandum of understanding to co- ordinate efforts aimed at developing and strengthening the Inter-Parliamentary Relations of Brics members state concerning issues of common interest amongst other things in building on the progress that we have made in the past. It would be important to ensure that we revive our parliamentary diplomacy focus groups to ensure that, we consistently access the efficacy and impact of our engagement to ensure sustained and strategic alignment to South Africa’s interest on the global arena.

The future of the South Africa’s effective Parliamentary Diplomacy will require Parliament to be more proactive in advancing South Africa’s national foreign policy objectives and the bilateral and multilateral parliamentary form of engagement.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Hon Lucas, your time has expired.

 

Ms S E LUCAS: This will require strategic processes and procedures to ensure that Parliament international engagement are processes in a streamline as is done with all domestic engagement. The ANC supports this budget. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

 

The SPEAKER: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to thank all the members who have taken part in the debate. Even though some of you have not accepted this budget, which is really for your sustenance and your operational work. I appreciate you raising these concerns to highlight the important issues that we need to continue to deal with as a Parliament. So, I do not take that negatively. I realise that you are engaging in the very debate that we need to have as a Parliament to bring these issues from our communities. Some of

the contributions may not have been relevant to this debate, but they were necessary to identify the important issues facing our communities.

 

Hon House Chairperson, I would like to say that, listening to the speakers in the debate, it was clear that we agree on the role of Parliament. We have also reflected on the weaknesses that Parliament as an institution needs to address so that it can fulfil its role of lawmaking, oversight, and accountability. Indeed, I would like to admit that at the beginning of the Seventh Parliamentary term and in the work that we had to do, there were some glitches that did not allow us to exercise effective oversight, particularly when we were dealing with the budget debates, as members have said.

 

 

We will consider the proposal made by members that there may be a need to review the transitional arrangements, particularly after the elections, as to how much time we actually give the committees to do their work. There was also a suggestion that we should look at the legislation to ensure that the time limits are extended during the period when we have elections so that the budget debates can take place.

There are also issues that have been raised by members about how we need to strengthen each other’s capacity on lawmaking. And I would like to encourage members that apart from the executive, which sometimes introduces laws, we as legislators also have the responsibility to introduce our own laws through the Private Members Bill. Parliament as an institution supports members who want to table Private Members Bills to close gaps that they have identified in our legislation.

 

 

The issue of strengthening public participation was also highlighted by members in the debate and we accept that we will look at what more we can do to ensure that this actually happens. I also want to say members have highlighted the need for prioritising the rebuilding programme of Parliament. But also added the need for further construction of office spaces that would allow members to have offices adequate enough for them to do their work, as well as committee rooms. We will take up these issues, particularly on the Joint Standing Committee of Parliament, to see what is feasible.

 

 

One of the members raised an important issue, namely that, given the resources we have, we need to look at what more we can do with those resources. It will indeed be necessary, given the resources we have, to reprioritise certain important

things that we need to start doing in a given year. But I want to assure members that we are continuing the debate with the National Treasury to ensure that Parliament, as another arm of the state, is properly funded.

 

 

One of the members also encourages us to make sure that when we appoint service providers that we look at their capacity and their capability. And whether or not they are actually fit for purpose.

 

 

Hon members, we may not have all appreciated that we need to be in a permanent space. Some of you have said, we can’t be proud that we are meeting in a marquee, but it was a way in which we had to address the needs from members who actually said at the end of the sixth administration, they would want to have more physical meetings as opposed to the virtual meetings. So, we are trying to precisely address that.

 

IsiZulu:

 

 ... noma ngabe, Baba uHadebe sikuleli tende engathi sikumcimbi kwaHadebe, nomcimbi wakwaHadebe noma usetendeni noko umsebenzi usaqhubeka, inyama ithi idliwa, kube nezinye izinto ezenziwayo kodwa kusuke kufana nendlu yesikhashana ngaleso sikhathi singakabi nayo indlu.

Ngithembe Malungu ePhalamende ukuba sizokuqhubeka nakulezo zinto enisiqwashise ngazo sense njenga ngoko kuze kwenzeke lokho ukuyizimfuno zabahlali esibamele. Mangibonge kuni nonke malungu, ngibonge nakubasebenzi bala ePhalamende ngomsebenzi abawenzayo noma ngezinye izikhathi zingaboni ukuthi badonsa kanzima kodwa sithanda ukubonga kubo sithi, nangokuzayo ningadiwa bakithi.

 

 

Asifuni ukunigcina la kuze kube yisebusuku. Ngiyazi ukuthi kukhona intjejana lana esathanda ukuyobuka ulwandle nokunye ilanga lingekashoni, ngithembe ukuthi nizokwenze njalo kodwa, nikumbule ukuthi kusasa yisikhathi sokusebenza. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Hon members, before we conclude the debate, I would like to draw member’s attention to Rule 82 before we conclude the debate. During House sessions and mini-plenary sessions, members must address each other respectfully. Secondly, further to subrule (1), no member may address another member by his/her name only. No name may be used that attacks the dignity of a member. Hon members, I implore you, let us refrain from doing so, as it is unparliamentary to refer to other members by names that are

not provided for in the rules. Can we please stick to the rules?

 

 

We will now take orders second to forty-one together, as they appear on the Order Paper. These are the reports of the Portfolio Committees on Budget Votes. As usual, there will be no declarations of vote on these reports. I will give the parties the opportunity to express their objections to certain reports if they so wish.

 

 

Debate concluded.

 

 

Question put.

 

 

APROPRIATION BILL

 

 

 

(Consideration of Reports of Portfolio Committee)

 

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, Deputy

 

President, and all hon members, good afternoon. I move that the reports be adopted. Thank you.

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Hon Wessels, what is your point of order?

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, I rise on a point of order. I know that there are new members in the House, but I would ask you to make all members aware that it is against the rules to cross the floor during a sitting of the House, and it is a bad practise to do so. I would ask you to inform the new members of our House about this.

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Thank you, hon Wessels. Hon members, in fact, when we cross the floor, you can bow down to show the respect and then you cross over to the other side instead of just crossing over and not adhering to the rules.

 

Mr J S NGUBANE: Hon Chair, we object to the report read by the Chief Whip of the Government of National Unit, GNU.

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Hon Ngubane, please let me finish because I would have asked that the motion is that the report be adopted. And then, you would come and raise your hand and say that you object to the report or not. Hon Ngubane, you are now conversing with other members while I am addressing you. So, I am not sure whether you are listening to me or not. Because I would like you to say specifically, which

report are you referring to or which part do you reject and which part you do not, - not now. I have not finished yet.

 

 

Hon members, let us be gentle with the other members who are new, because this is not a parliamentary Chamber, so they do not know that when you walk around, you are not actually allowed to cross. Can all Members of Parliament please walk around the tent. As there are doors on that side, please walk around the tent or walk around this tent, but do not cross the floor around here, please. The motion is that the reports be adopted. Are there any objections? I think you can come now.

 

 

Mr R A P TROLLIP: Chairperson, I am pleased that you made an endeavour to correct your original ruling on the matter raised by hon Wessels. This is Parliament and you do not cross the floor, even if you bow. You come in from this side or that side, but you do not cross the floor. Even though they are new members, do not mislead them. Give them the right ruling from the beginning. Then we all know what we are supposed to do.

Thank you.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): I think I have corrected this ruling and said that since they are new members, they can all go around the tent and then use other exits. But they

should not cross the floor. That is what I said. Are there any objections to the reports as presented?

 

 

Mr J S NGUBANE: Hon Chair, I did say, as the MK Party, we will object the report as presented by the Chief Whip of the GNU.

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Can you please specify which reports you are objecting?

 

Mr J S NGUBANE: All of the reports.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Are there any other objections?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, please note the objection of the Economic Freedom Fighters on all the reports from order one to forty-one.

 

Mr R A P TROLLIP: House Chair, we will not object to the contents of the reports. For we understand that this is a transitional phase and that it has been compressed. But we do have objections to the way in which the reports were presented to us. Some of them were submitted at simultaneously with the sitting of the meeting. This does not give Parliament the

opportunity to deal with these reports effectively. Please put on record our objections to the way they have been presented to us. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Hon Trollip, do you have objections to the reports that are being presented? It is either you object to the reports, or you are in favour.

 

 

Mr R A P TROLLIP: Hon Chair, you obviously did not hear me. I said that we are not against the reports, but against the way in which they were presented.

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): I heard you, quite frankly. All I am asking is, were you objecting to the reports because you gave a statement after that. But it is fine. We will take it that it is all rejections to the report.

 

 

Mr R A P TROLLIP: No, it is not.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): Ok, hon members. We will then take it that hon Trollip is not objecting to the reports. Are there any further objections?

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, as is the practice in the past, I will provide the table with a list of our objections. But at this stage, just for record purposes, we wish to note our objection to a certain number of reports. But there are also a number of reports to which we are not objecting. And I will provide a list of those to the table. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr V ZUNGULA: Please register that the ATM objects to all the reports. Thank you.

 

 

Reports agreed to.

 

 

The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Ms Z Majozi): You nearly killed me. That concludes the business of the day.

 

 

The House is adjourned 16:33.