Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 25 Apr 2024
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
THURSDAY, 25 APRIL 2024
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch video here: Plenary
The Council met at 14:04.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I would like to welcome delegates here, after some time, that all of us have been running up and down in the sun; we are here now.
Before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular subrules 21, 22 and 23, Rule 103 which provide as follows:
The hybrid sitting constitutes the sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
Delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
For purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged-on to the virtual platform shall be considered present.
Delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak. Those who experience connectivity issues are encouraged to use a still-photograph for identification on the virtual platform.
Afrikaans:
Dit moet tog nie ’n lelike foto wees nie.
English:
Delegates on the virtual platform are encouraged ... [Laughter.] [Inaudible.] ... use one device only as logging-on with two or more devices further lowers bandwidth.
Delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must remain muted unless they are permitted to speak.
All delegates in the chamber must insert their cards to register on the chamber system.
Delegates who are physically in the chamber must use the floor microphone.
All delegates may participate in the discussions through the chartroom.
In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is supposed to be active.
Permanent delegates, members of executive, special delegates and SA Local Government Association, SALGA, representatives on the platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on their devices are properly activated to facilitate access to the services.
Permanent delegates, special delegates, SALGA representatives and members of executive in chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation facilities.
Hon delegates, I would like to begin with the plenary session and we will now allow an opportunity to delegates to give notices of motion.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates strengthening and professionalising local governments to critically focus on their key responsibility of providing services that promote social and economic development and create a safe and healthy environment in partnership with communities, local businesses and civil society.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the implementation of infrastructure projects to stimulate economic activity and meet the people’s needs, including in areas such as human settlements, roads and rail, rural bridges, water and sanitation.
Ms K M MUTHWA: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the challenges faced by Technical, Vocational, Education and Training, Tvet, colleges in training young people to develop skills and knowledge that are needed in the labour market.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the electricity price hike which was implemented earlier this month, which is a direct result of the ruling party’s mismanagement and corruption at Eskom. The electricity hike hits the poor and the working class hardest and comes in the midst of a high unemployment rate, a stagnant economy and an
ever-increasing cost of living.
Mr M A P de BRUYN: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF-Plus:
That the House debates the powers and functions ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order! Hon
Lehihi, can you please mute!
Sorry, hon de Bruyn. You may continue.
Mr M A P de BRUYN: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF-Plus:
That the House-
(a) debates the powers and functions, as well as the regulation of water boards in South Africa;
(b) notes that the Kopanong municipality has been under 30% water restriction for more than two years;
(c) also notes that parts of the Mangaung Metro Municipality are constantly struggling without water as a result of a lack of capacity and infrastructure by the Vaal Central Water Board and that this is also the case in Heilbron in the Ngwathe Local Municipality serviced by Rand Water;
(d) further notes that this is a direct violation of citizen’s constitutional right to access to clean water.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Moshodi, that was a notice of motion, not a motion without notice. So, we continue.
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates mechanisms aimed at expediting measures geared at attracting more new investors to partner with the government in its quest to upgrade South Africa’s ports and rail network, which will grow the country’s inclusive economy and job creation.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): That will be the end of the notices of motion.
Hon delegates, I will now allow and opportunity to delegates who wish to move ... [Interjections.]
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chair, it’s Kenny Motsamai.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Motsamai,
what is it? I didn’t receive notice that you want to speak. So, if you want to speak, speak now. Is it a notice of motion or a motion without notice?
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the Council notes the passing of Dr Motsoko Pheko, an Africanist and former President of the PAC. Further note, that Dr Motsoko Pheko died at the age of 93 last week Friday on ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): It’s a motion without notice ...
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chair?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Motsamai, I asked is it a motion without notice or a notice of a motion?
Mr K MOTSAMAI: It’s a motion without notice, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Okay. But
why did you stop when I haven’t identified people yet? But you
may continue, because in any case I don’t see any problem with the motion that you are raising. Continue and finalise.
SAD PASSING OF FORMER PAC PRESIDENT, DR MOTSOKO PHEKO, AGED 93
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes the passing of Dr Motsoko Pheko, an Africanist and former president of the PAC;
(2) also notes that Pheko died last Friday, 19 April 2024 at the age of 93;
(3) further notes that Pheko had been a member of the PAC since 1960 and he played a key role in the liberation struggle fighting for equality and the return of the land to the African people;
(4) notes that Pheko’s contribution to the liberation struggle cannot be measured. He served in a number of leadership positions, published over 30 books and held several degrees, including two law degrees;
(5) also notes his contribution in theology, education, research and indigenous knowledge; and
(6) the EFF take this opportunity to send its heartfelt condolences to the Pheko family and to the PAC. May his soul rest in peace.
EXPANDED PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAMME LAUNCHED IN BUFFALO CITY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council—
(1) notes that on Wednesday, 24 April 2024, President Cyril Ramaphosa officiated at the 20 years celebration of the
Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, and launched Phase 5 of the programme in Buffalo City Municipality, Eastern Cape province;
(2) also notes that EPWP is a nationwide government programme to create work opportunities and income support for poor and unemployed people through the delivery of public and community assets and services, thereby contributing towards development;
(3) further notes that the programme is one of government’s flagship public employment programmes and has been implemented for the past 20 years;
(4) understands that since its inception the programme has created more than 14 million work opportunities across all the EPWP sectors through more than 300 public bodies and non-profit organisations implementing the EPWP; and
(5) calls on the unemployed, especially the youth and women, to grab the opportunities that will be availed
through Phase 5 which will be implemented from 01 April 2024 to 31 March 2029.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair, that motion is objected.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The next speaker will be hon Visser.
Ms M MOKAUSE: That motion is objected whether you like it or not.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Mokause, may I call you to order, please! Hon Visser, please proceed.
Ms M MOKAUSE: That motion is objected.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The motion has already been adopted.
Ms M MOKAUSE: That motion is objected.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Your objection is late.
Ms M MOKAUSE: That objection is not late.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can hon
Mokause be muted? We do not have time for that today.
Afrikaans:
Ms M MOKAUSE: Jy is ’n misdadiger van die House [Huis.]
LACK OF GOVERNMENT ACTION TO REDUCE MICROBIOLOGICAL CONTAMINATION BY FAECAL POLLUTANTS AND TOXIC WASTE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C VISSER: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the Council—
(1) notes the numerous motions tabled in the Sixth Parliament regarding the regression of microbiological contamination from faecal pollutants and toxic waste as 53% of the sampled sites are a human health risk as they irrigate crops using this water;
(2) also notes that government, who is aware of the looming crisis, was not motivated to act;
(3) further notes that the concentration of nitrate and phosphate increases considerably creating conditions for algae to grow and multiply rapidly turning the water green known as eutrophication;
(4) believe that failure to conduct an independent scientific environmental impact assessment to determine the root cause of toxic and sewer pollution, measures to stop it and the failure to warn that due to the contamination of water in SA, water from rivers are not suitable or safe for human consumption without the use of glyphosate to destroy the floating biomass on eutrophic rivers without first addressing the root cause;
(5) understands that the prevention of the flow of raw sewer from dysfunctional wastewater treatment works into the rivers and exacerbating the problem by adding chemicals to an already distressed aquatic ecosystem;
(6) acknowledges the concerns raised in the public domain that no criminal charges have been opened against accounting officers in their personal capacity despite the rapid regression of quality of water in any one of the SA rivers; and
(7) requests the Ministers of Water and Sanitation and Minister of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment to respond with legal action so that there is consequence management and to ensure that our rivers and the dignity of those who drink from it is restored.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
EIGHT NIGERIAN NATIONALS ARRESTED FOR ATTACKING SAPS OFFICERS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms S SHAIKH: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council—
(1) welcomes the arrest of eight Nigerian nationals who attacked police and damaged vehicles,
(2) notes that at the time of the arrest, police were tracing information of one of the Nigerian nationals in possession of drugs;
(3) also notes that whilst conducting their search, a large group of Nigerians attacked police and the police fired rubber bullets to disperse the crowd;
(4) understands that one suspect was arrested for illegal drug possession and three were detained at Kimberley Police Station for public violence;
(5) also understands that later-on four other suspects were also arrested for malicious damage to property;
(6) believes that those who seek to prevent police from exercising their duties should be dealt with harshly; and
(7) calls upon law enforcement agencies to do everything within the law to ensure that lawless behaviour and attacking of police officer is not tolerated.
SOUTH AFRICA CELEBRATES NATIONAL FREEDOM DAY IN TWO DAYS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N E NKOSI: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council—
(1) notes that two days from now, on the 27th of April, South Africa will be celebrating National Freedom Day.
(2) also notes that this year’s Freedom Day marks the thirtieth year since we ushered democracy from the shackles of the evil system of Apartheid;
(3) further notes that South Africa has made significant strides since achieving freedom 30 years ago, thanks to its human rights-driven constitutional dispensation. This has translated into sound governance and impactful programmes that improve citizens’ lives;
(4) call on the democratic government to continue to work hard within the multilateral institutions, to make sure that all nations that continue to be oppressed in the African continent and elsewhere in the world attain their freedom and self-determination.
WI-FI CONNECTIVITY PROJECT LAUNCHED IN LIMPOPO
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council—
welcomes the launch of ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chair, our Whip have called for.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Mr
Motsamai, can I call you into order. I know how to do my job I don’t need your help. Continue, hon Nchabeleng.
WI-FI CONNECTIVITY PROJECT LAUNCHED IN LIMPOPO
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council—
(1) welcomes the launch of Phase 2 of Wi-Fi connectivity project in Limpopo, the South Africa Connect project on Friday, 19 April 2024;
(2) notes that the SA Connect Phase 2 launch event was organised by the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies and took place at the Ephraim Mogale Stadium, Modimolle Local Municipality, Waterberg District, in Limpopo;
(3) understands that the project aims to bridge the digital divide by providing Wi-Fi access to communities and ensuring universal access to the internet;
(4) also aims to create an inclusive information society and enable the government to provide broadband to communities;
(5) Deputy President Mashatile launched Phase 2 which is expected to connect more than 42 000 government facilities, including schools, health facilities, post offices, police stations, and government offices, to broadband services; therefore,
(6) congratulate the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies on this important project that is aimed at rural District Municipalities.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I'm pointing to the motion and I'm rising on a point of order, Chair. I’m rising on a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): And your
order is?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, there's a staff member that has joined your criminal activities in the Council of muting me unnecessarily so. Talk to your staff. Talk tour staff. I am a member of the Council.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, it’s time that you start acting like a leader so that you can be respected. May I please continue; may I please continue! It’s no longer a point of order. I will continue and I will call on the hon Maleka to continue with your motion.
MANDRAX TABLETS TO THE VALUE OF R2 MILLION SEIZED ON THE N2
(Draft Resolution)
Ms A D MALEKA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
(1) notes the seizure of mandrax tablets with an estimated value of R2 million, from a car traveling on the N2 near Sir Lowry’s Pass on Friday, 20 April 2024;
(2) also notes that the vehicle was traveling from the Eastern Cape to Cape Town when it was intercepted;
(3) further notes that 50 packets of mandrax were found in a false compartment in the back of the vehicle and the driver was immediately arrested;
(4) notes that the 33-year-old suspect is expected to appear in the Strand Magistrate’s Court to face charges of dealing in drugs;
(5) also notes that drugs pose a serious threat to South African communities and are most of the time the cause of violent crimes wreaking havoc in our communities;
(6) further notes that the public worked with the police, providing information about criminality and drugs; and
(7) commends law enforcement agencies for a job well done in apprehending drug dealers and assisting in ensuring safer and drug-free communities.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE 9th OF APRIL MARKS THE 45th ANNIVERSARY OF THE HANGING OF KALUSHI SOLOMON MAHLANGU IN 1957
(Draft Resolution)
Mr I NTSUBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council –
(1) notes that 9 April 2024 marked the 45th anniversary of the hanging of one of the most selfless, courageous and death-defying young freedom fighters of the ANC by the racist white minority regime of apartheid, comrade Kalushi Solomon Mahlangu in 1979;
(2) also notes that his last words before he was hanged were “Tell my people that I love them and that they must continue to fight, my blood will nourish the tree that will bear the fruits of freedom”;
(3) further notes that as our country celebrates the 30th anniversary of freedom in the next two days, it is befitting for all peace-loving democrats to remember those who died for the freedom we are enjoying today;
(4) calls upon this august House to extend a message of solidarity to the family of the late comrade Kalushi Solomon Mahlangu and his movement, the ANC on this 45th anniversary of his hanging.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
(1) notes the appreciation the peace climate of atmosphere of campaigning for the historic 2024 May 29 national and provincial elections. This is despite the significant increase in the number of the political parties that have registered to contest these elections and the robust spirit of the campaign;
(2) also notes believing that free and fair elections are not only the cornerstone of our constitutional democracy, but also a guarantee for peace and stability and the confidence in our Independent Electoral Commission; and
(3) therefore, calls on the august House to extend the message of appreciation to all registered political parties for this.
THREE-YEAR-OLD BOY DROWNS IN A PIT TOILET AT A DAY CARE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N NDONGENI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
(1) notes with great sadness the drowning of a three-year- old boy, Unecebo Mboteni, in a pit toilet at a crèche in Unit 6 in Mdantsane in the Eastern Cape, on 18 April 2024;
(2) also notes that the toddler was taken to the hospital and died the following day;
(3) further notes that the incident was reported to police after the toddler’s death and an inquest docket was opened;
(4) notes the Department of Education’s commitment to support the parents and staff with psycho-social support services and counselling during this difficult time;
(5) also notes the department’s intervention to guide the centre further to ensure that it adheres to the guidelines provided by the government for the safety of children under their care and at all material times to
avoid the re-occurrence of these kinds of incidents in the future; and
(6) takes this opportunity to convey its condolences to Unecebo’s family, friends and the creche.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr M I RAYI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
(1) notes the R4 billion investment from Volkswagen South Africa meant for their assembly plant in Kariega, in the Eastern Cape;
(2) also notes that the investment will introduce a new SUV model built on the Polo platform;
(3) further notes that the move positions the facility as the sole manufacturer of the Polo brand globally and the new SUV model will be exported to global markets;
(4) notes that it will not only strengthen the assembly plant but also secure the livelihoods of approximately 3500 people who are directly employed by Volkswagen South Africa, VWSA and thousands more that are indirectly affected;
(5) takes this opportunity to congratulate government on the sterling work that they have done to bolster the automative industry.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, the Draft Resolution on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Council resolves that Rule 218(1) which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed, since the committee’s report was tabled be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the following Bills. Firstly, the
Climate Change Bill [B9B –2022] (National Assembly – section 76). Secondly, Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B28 – 2022] (National Assembly – section 75); and Second Adjustments Appropriation 2023-24 Financial Year Bill [B6–2024] (National Assembly – section 77). Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Dangor. Hon delegates, we will now proceed to the voting on the motion, and I shall put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. Before we proceed to voting, I shall allow the provinces the opportunity to make their declarations or vote in terms of Rule 86 if they so wish. Are there any declarations? If none, I shall now call on provinces to cast their votes. When called upon, the heads of delegations must indicate whether they vote in favour, against, or abstain.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
ABSTAIN: Western Cape.
Motion accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, we will now proceed to the first order. Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public Works and Infrastructure (Announcements, Tablings and Committee, ATC, Reports, 27 March 2024, p 143) Luxembourg Protocol to the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment on Matters Specific to Railway Rolling Stock, dated 27 March 2024. I will now call on hon K M Mmoiemang, Chairperson of the Select Committee, to present the committee’s report. Hon Mosimanegape Kenny Mmoiemang.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You must know that I objected to your motion earlier on, you will not be that confident.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, what?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... [Inaudible.]
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT, PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE LUXEMBOURG PROTOCOL TO THE CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS IN MOBILE EQUIPMENT ON MATTERS SPECIFIC TO RAILWAY ROLLING STOCK, DATED 27 MARCH 2024
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity on behalf of the Select Committee on Transport, Public Works, Public Service and Administration to present the motion of the Select Committee. Concerning the report of the Slate Committee, we make a humble appeal and request the hon members in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa to ratify the Luxembourg Protocol to the Convention on International Interest in Mobile Equipment on Matters Specific to Railway Rolling Stock Luxembourg Protocol.
Chair, the background to this protocol is as follows. The Luxembourg Protocol was adopted on 23 February 2007 at the Diplomatic Conference jointly sponsored by the International Institute for the Unification of Private Law and the Intergovernmental Organisation for International Carriage by Rail in Luxembourg. The Luxembourg Protocol is a multilateral treaty that establishes an international asset-based financing regime that will enable and reduce the cost of private financing for rail rolling stock. It creates a new worldwide legal framework that recognises and regulates security interest of lenders, lessors and vendors selling under
conditional agreements where each are secured by rolling stock.
The Protocol of Luxembourg sets out a common international legal right or funders financing the rolling stock, including easing the repossession of collateral on data default or insolvency. Deputy Chair, this protocol accentuates substantially, the reduction of credit risk and thus financing costs. As a result, thereof, South Africa is already a party for the Cape Town Convention as well as the Aircraft Protocol, and both the Convention and the Aircraft Protocol have been incorporated into the South African law through the Convention of International Interest in Mobile Equipment Act 2007, Act 4. However, once the Luxembourg Protocol is ratified by the National Council of Province, this Act will be amended to include protocol.
In essence, the Luxembourg Protocol seeks to, firstly, lower the barriers to entry for third party operators, open new rolling stock markets for manufacturers and lead to a more competitive and dynamic rail industry worldwide, thereby bringing important social, environmental, developmental and economic advantages as well as new business opportunities.
Consequently, in May 2018, the Rail Working Group, RWG, a Swiss-based not-for-profit association, established at the request of the Unidroit, conducted the study which estimated that the potential value of the financial savings on the refinancing rolling stock in Africa will be R33,9 billion.
This study was presented to the Department of Transport, National Treasury, the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Public Enterprise, the Department of International Relations and Co-operations, as well as the African Rail Industry Association.
In terms of consultation, hon Deputy Chair, the following stakeholders were indeed consulted. Since the adoption of the Luxembourg Protocol in 2007, the department, the Secretary- General of Unidroit and the Chairman of the Rail Working Group have been consulting with various key stakeholders, including the departments that I’ve indicated, Treasury, Trade Industry,
Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, PRASA, Public Enterprise, Transnet, Gautrain, the Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South Africa Soc Ltd, ECIC, New Partnership for Africa’s Development, NEPAD, Business Foundation, and the African Rail Industry Association, ARIA. The department has again consulted the Economic Sectors, Investment, Employment
and Infrastructure Development, ESIEID, Cluster, the global and continental affairs committee, an International Co- operation, Trade and Security Cluster.
In addition, the Department of Transport sought a legal opinion from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Department of International Relations to which the state law advisors advised that the protocol fall within the ambit of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act of 1996 which requires parliamentary approval for ratification. There was consensus among members of the Select Committee and Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public Works and Infrastructure, and therefore, the Select Committee considered the protocol against the backdrop of the recommendation of the National Development Plan, NDP, the White Paper on National Rail Policy and the Economic Reconstruction Recovery Plan, ERRP, which directs greater private sector participation.
Consequently, the Select Committee recommends that the National Council of Provinces in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of 1996 to approve the protocol. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Setswana:
Motho o o mpatlang o a itsi gore ke nna kae kwa GaMotlharo, o tla mphitlhela teng. Ga ke itsi gore go diragalang ka ene.
English:
Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Debate concluded.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, I will now put the question, and the question is that the report be adopted. However, before we proceed to voting, I shall allow provinces the opportunity to make a declaration of vote in terms of Rule 86, if they so wish. If none, we shall now proceed to the voting on the question, and I will call upon the provinces to cast their votes. When called upon, the heads of delegations must indicate whether they vote in favour, against or abstain.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT COMMITTEE ON ETHICS AND MEMBERS’ INTERESTS REPORTS, NON-DISCLOSURES OF MEMBERS INTERESTS FOR 2023: CONTRAVENTION OF THE CODE OF ETHICAL CONDUCT AND DISCLOSURE OF MEMBERS’ INTERESTS
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Deputy Chair, good afternoon. The Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests Register 2023 on late disclosure item 9(21) read with item 9(23) of the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interest prescribed that Members of Parliament must disclose their registerable interest annually at the time determined by the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interest. Item 9(22) also states that, if a member has no registerable interest, a nil return must be submitted.
The due date for the 2023 disclosure of members’ interest was
30 September 2023. Item 10(11) of the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interests provides as follows: A member breaches the code when the member, contravenes or fails to comply with the requirement of the provision for disclosing
interest. The process of disclosing registerable interest is the mechanism designed to hold a Member of Parliament accountable to the electorate. It is also designed to eradicate conflict of interest in the work and duty of a Member of Parliament.
The Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests adopted a non-tolerance approach in respect of members who do not disclose their registerable interest on time. Of the 54 members of the Council who are requested to submit their disclosure, 1 member failed or neglected to submit his disclosure by the due date.
The committee convened on 20 October 2023 and 18 March 2024 to discuss the late disclosure. The committee report shows that the one member of the Council who did not submit his 2023 disclosure on time is hon Itumeleng Ntsube. In considering the matter relating to hon Ntsube, the committee noted that this is the third time during the term of the Fifth Parliament that the member submitted his disclosure late. The member breached the code in 2019 and in 2020.
The committee considered this to be extremely serious. The committee requests the House to impose the highest penalty in terms of the code. The Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests recommends to the House to impose a penalty in terms of item 10(771) of the code, which provides, as follows: The committee must recommend imposing one or more of the following penalties where a member breach clause 10(11) - a reprimand in the House; a fine not exceeding the value of 30 days’ salary. The recommendation from the committee is that the member be fined a value equal to 30 days’ salary and the member be reprimanded in the House. I so table the report. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, in terms of the adopted report, the committee recommends that the member be fined a value equal to 30 days’ salary and that the member be reprimanded in the House. Hon Ntsube, now you are on the platform. So, I don't know whether you are standing. But for your own conscience, stand, please. You are hereby reprimanded in the House for breaching the code, in that you failed to submit your disclosure of interest for 2023 by the due date. I will not add anything. I just want you to take note of this reprimand.
Afrikaans:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Kom, jou misdadiger, kom!
Mr I NTSUBE: I accept the punishment. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Hon I Ntsube was reprimanded in the House for breaching the Code in that he failed to submit his disclosure of interests for 2023 by the due date.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT COMMITTEE ON ETHICS AND MEMBERS’ INTERESTS ON THE REVIEW OF THE CODE OF ETHICAL CONDUCT AND DISCLOSURE OF MEMBERS’ INTERESTS FOR ASSEMBLY AND PERMANENT COUNCIL MEMBERS
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interest on the Review of the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosures of Members’ Interests for Assembly and Permanent Council Members Rule 124 affords the Joint Committee and Members Interests competence to regularly review the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interest and to make recommendation for its amendment. The current code that Parliament used was adopted in 2014 and has been in operational since 01 November 2014,10 years later.
This is the first time that amendments to the code are being proposed. In fact, the nature of the ethics has changed so substantially in the last 10 years that the Joint Committee, thought it very important to put together a new draft code for Parliament. Hon Deputy Chairperson, the new draft code, called SITC, goes a far way to address the fundamental issue of the declining trust that the public has in Parliament. Social media is one of the ways in which communication has evolved, and the new draft code to introduce parameters for Members of Parliament when they interact with the people or various social platforms.
A fundamental introduction in the code, is the provision of lifestyle audit, which is found in item 2022 of the new draft code. The code also gives the committee access to law enforcement agency if there are discrepancies identified in the lifestyle audit hon members. The new code clearly identified that the disclosure of registered interest is done on a basis platform and therefore has been formally moved away from paperless-based disclosures which was already implemented by the committee since 2022.
The work of the Joint Committee also highlighted the fact that certain definitions in the code must change and those new definitions as a family member has to be inserted. The disclosure of gift has been increased from R1 500 to R3000 to allow for the current value of the money. The complain procedure in the code has now been aligned to the processes that the committee needs to follow when it deals with the complaint to ensure that the principles of natural justice are followed. That is why the Joint Committee does not meet as regularly as the Select Committee. The Committee only meets when certain process has been completed, which also is to interrogate a complaint before it.
The drafting of the new code considered comprehensive research of foreign industry industries and international instrument.
As the Chairperson of the committee, hon Deputy Chair, I do think that this is a huge milestone that the committee of the Sixth Parliament was able to review the code and to propose a new draft code that is 10 years after the current code.
Hon Deputy chairperson, the work of the Acting Register, Advocate Anthea Gordon, must not go unnoticed in all of this. It is through her efforts of working tirelessly on the code that the committee was able to meet its obligation to review the code and propose a new draft code. Her extremely work ethics to always go above and beyond for the committee, it is greatly appreciated. The committee appreciated the efforts considering that there are no other professional staff as assigned to the Office of the Register. The Joint Committee is delighted to be able to present a new draft code to the House for adoption. Hon Deputy Chairperson, I so table the report.
Thank you.
Accordingly agreed to, in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE ON PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO CHAPTERS 3 TO 5 OF JOINT RULES OF PARLIAMENT (6TH EDITION), 2024
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Mama, thanks for the opportunity and greetings hon members. Once again, let me start by apologizing Mama, where I am seated, the network is so much of a problem. The Sixth Parliament assumed its constitutional obligation after the Fifth Parliament, which experienced disruptions that undermined the decorum of the Joint Sitting and the two Houses in general. Hon Deputy Chair and hon members, these impact the proper functioning of Parliament and it led us to have a way of reviewing the rules so that we can have a functioning Parliament.
Over the Sixth Parliament we have observed improved conduct among members and the decorum of Parliament due to rules adopted by the two Houses. Be that as it may, there were some little challenges that force us to review our rules. The Joint Rules Committee adopted the proposed amendments to Chapter 1- 2(B) of the Joint Rules as recommended by the Joint Subcommittee on review of the Joint Rules Subcommittee on 01 December 2023. On 20 March 2024, the Subcommittee having
processed Standing Joint Rules further recommended to the Joint Rules Committee that the option of the proposed amendments to Chapter 3 to Chapter 5.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the amendments strengthened various aspects of the rule to enhance the functioning of the Joint Committee and Joint Sitting Rules and to adapt the Joint Rules to changes in conditions due to the impact of the COVID-19 which has led to the normalization of the virtual meetings.
Hence, now we are in a hybrid setting. Concerning virtual meetings and hybrid meetings, the two Houses already had rules for virtual and hybrid, but it has now been inserted into the Joint Rules. The amendments provide everything related to virtual and hybrid sittings. In particular, the question of the venue to assert to Parliament as the venue, and that the distribution of papers electronically will suffice, and that privileges that members enjoy in the normal sitting will also carry over in respect of virtual or hybrid settings. As it is a classic case of what we are doing now.
The amendments also addressed the issue of voting. Members shall be entitled to cast their votes either electronically, by voice or by show of hands, as we have been doing today. On
public access to hybrid or virtual joint committee meetings, these will be facilitated in a manner consistent with the participatory and representative democracy and wherever possible, a virtual or hybrid Joint Committee meeting must be live streamed.
In relation to Joint Subcommittee chairing, a parent committee of a Joint Subcommittee must designate a member or members of the subcommittee as the Chairperson or Co-chairperson of the subcommittee, as the case may be.
The Joint Rules Committee also amended to establish a joint subcommittee on the removal of a member from the Chamber. This is a critical intervention to strengthen the process of the removal of members in a manner that protects the rights and the decorum of the House. In relation to mediation committee per Bill when it announces in the ATC that the Bill must be referred for mediation in terms of Joint Rule 226 or 235, this Assembly and the Council must: a) establish the relevant mediation committee to deal with the Bill, b) appoint the members of that mediation committee in accordance with Joint Rule 139(1). The mediation committee must be established as soon as reasonably possible in respect of conditional
amendments, a question before the Mediation Committee is decided as contemplated in subrule 1 and subrule 2. But the voting maturities required by section 74 of the Constitution are applied when the Bill is considered in the Assembly and in the Council.
On the Joint Standing Committee on Defence and the Joint Committee which consists of the Assembly and the Council members and shall be determined by the Joint Rule Committee at the beginning of each Parliament, in accordance with Section 228(3) of the Constitution of 1993, read with item 294, subsection one of Schedule 6.
On the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interest in relation to representation, members of the Assembly will be substantially be the same in proportion in which they are represented in the Assembly. The Joint Committee should regularly review the code and make recommendations for its amendment.
It will further serve as an advisory and consultative body both generally and to members concerning the implementation and the interpretation of the code. To enhance effective
legislation process, a joint committee can be established for the performance of any specific task, including the consideration of a Bill as contemplated in section 45 of the Constitution.
An Ad hoc joint committee considering a Bill must consider the Bill referred to it in accordance with Part B and other relevant provision of Chapter four of the Joint Rules. The Speaker must appoint the Assembly members who are to serve on the committee after consultation with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. When a member of the majority party is appointed and the most senior whip, another party when a member of that party is appointed.
On the joint taking mechanism, a funding must be found on whether a Bill is affected by consultation requirement set out by the law related to a traditional or Khoisan authority, including whether the Bill: a) affects the traditional or Khoisan communities, b) contains any provision that pertains to customary law or custom of traditional or Khoisan images,
c) pertains to a matter referred to in Section 154, subsection two of the Constitution.
The overall amendments by the Joint Rules clarify various legislative processes to provide more clarity and to have a comprehensive measure for effective legislation process by Joint Committees. These include measures on stopping fund allocation to provinces through an ad hoc joint committee known as Joint Ad hoc Committee or intervention in provincial funding. Hon Deputy Chair, we are more confident that these amendments will strengthen parliamentary process and clarify the functioning of the joint committees of Parliament. I, therefore, hon members, Deputy Chair, table the report for adoption by the Council. Thank you, very much Mama.
Question put.
Voting
Accordingly agreed to, in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
UPSTREAM PETROLEUM RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Ms T C MODISE: Hon House Chairperson, let me greet my colleagues on the platform. The Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy is presenting the Upstream Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B13B - 2021], National Assembly section 76, dated 28 March 2024.
The Department of Mineral Resources and Energy briefed the committee on 21 November 2023 on the Upstream Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B13B - 2021]. The Bill was referred to the committee on 26 October 2023 as a section 76 Bill. The committee called for written comments on the Bill from 22 November 2023 until 30 January 2024 while public hearings were held by the provincial legislatures. At the end of the public hearing engagement process of both the committee and the provincial legislatures, the negotiating mandate meeting was held by the committee together with the provincial legislatures on 19 March 2024.
The Committee on Land Reform, Mineral Resources and Energy having deliberated on and considered the subject of the Upstream Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B13B - 2021], National Assembly section 76, referred to it classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports that it agrees to the Bill.
Therefore, the committee requests the House to consider this report and all committee members agreed with the Bill. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, chairperson. Hon delegates, that concludes the debate.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon House Chair, I am speaking ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hhayi! Kodwa uyahlupha yazi
...
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order. No, this is not your house ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): ... but you didn’t say that. You just said I am speaking ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson? Chairperson?
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hhayi uyahlupha. Uyahlupha. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, this is not your house; it is a Council ... [interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): It is our House ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is a Council. It is not your home. So, I am a part of that House. Therefore, when I rise on a point of order you must afford me an opportunity ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): What is the point of order?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, talk to me properly; I am not your kid. I am a member of the Council. Talk to me properly.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): What is the point of order, before ...
IsiZulu:
... ngikuvalela ngaphandle?
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, you are not going to do that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I will do it.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not going to do that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I will do it because the chairperson was reading the report, and I was continuing with the chairperson’s report. So, I do not know what’s the point of order. Tell me the point of order. If you don’t tell me the point of order, ...
IsiZulu:
... ngiyakuvalela.
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: What arrogance is this, or are you saying goodbye?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can the Table assist me, please?
IsiZulu:
Ngicela nimvalele, ...
English:
... and I am not joking. I want to say it once and you must listen to what I am saying. We are not going to be controlled by hon Mokause here.
Mr I NTSUBE: We respect your ruling as the House, House Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Yes, wena [you] you are losing a salary. Suka! [get out of here.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, before we proceed to voting. I shall now allow provinces to make their declaration of vote in terms of Rule 86 if they so wish.
There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question, and the question is that the Bill be agreed to.
Voting
[Take in from minutes]
CLIMATE CHANGE BILL
(Consideration of Bill and Report thereon)
Ms T C MODISE: Thank you very much, House Chair. The report on Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy, on the Climate Change Bill, B9B, as per National Assembly section 76, dated 23 May 2024. The Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, briefed the Committee on 20 February 2024 on Climate Change Bill, B9B of 2022. The Bill was referred to the committee on 24 October
2023 as Section 76 Bill. The committee called for written comments on the Bill, on 22 November 2023 and in January 2024,
While public hearings were held by the provincial legislature, at the end of the public engagement process of both the committee and the provincial legislature, the negotiating mandate meeting was enrolled by the committee, together with the provincial legislature on 16 April 2024.
The Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy, having deliberated on the consideration of the subject of the Climate Change Bill, referred to it and classified by Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as section 76 Bill, reports that it agrees with the Bill, without any amendments. The committee request the House to consider the Bill. I thank you, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon member. Hon delegates, that conclude the debate. I now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to.
Mr J J LONDT: House Chair, I assume at this stage you would ask provinces for a declaration, if that is how we do it
normally. You can check with the staff at the Table, but at this stage you usually ask for provinces if they would like to make a declaration, and then we do the vote.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon member, I am coming to the declarations. I was wondering what is happening now. Can you please follow me on what I am doing right now, then I am coming to you. Before we proceed to vote, I shall now allow provinces the opportunity to make their declaration of vote in terms of Rule 86, if they so wish.
Declarations of Vote:
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chair, climate change poses a threat to our stability and prosperity. The first issue that comes to mind is coal-fired generated energy versus green and renewable energy resources. While South Africa will continue to rely on coal-fired power stations for our electricity needs in the short to medium term, we need a clear path that will help our economy to transition in a way that is both urgent and sensible.
We need diversification of our energy mix. Innovative governments empower the private sector to invest in and grow
green energy projects and green jobs. Government should lead through clear policy and legislation that guide the market in our energy independence and protecting our natural and renewable resources. Furthermore, governments should support new industries trotting for the transition towards green energy.
The success of this Bill, rests on two important factors, namely, a coherent and consistent position on climate change and renewable energy; as well as insuring that our provincial and local governments are adequately capacitated to drive the climate change response. This will pose a huge challenge in many areas, as is. The Bill is not perfect, but it is an important step towards addressing one of the most challenging issues facing the world today. The Western Cape, therefore, supports this Bill. I thank you.
Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The impact of climate in South Africa is significant, with escalating risk of droughts and floods across the country. The urgent impact of climate change is evident, highlighting the pressing need for proactive measures to mitigate its effects and enhance resilience. The ANC has emphasised the necessity for
government support in implementing the Climate Change Bill to effectively address these challenges and prioritise the protection of impoverished and vulnerable communities.
The 55th National Conference of the African National Congress has brought to our attention the urgent and central challenge of the climate crisis in South Africa. The escalating risks of drought and floods across the country have alighted the critical need for proactive measures to protect the lives and the livelihoods of all South Africans. In response to this pressing issue, the ANC has resolved that the government should mobilise support for this Bill, which aims to guide South Africa into a more sustainable and climate resilient country.
Chairperson, this Bill is not just a legislative measure, but it is a commitment and prioritising the protection of the poor and vulnerable communities in the rollout of climate resilient infrastructure solution. It aligns with the principles enshrined in section 24 of the Constitution, ensuring the right to conserve the environment for the benefit of current and future generations.
This Bill also aims to reduce human and economic vulnerability, as well as the vulnerability of the physical and ecological infrastructure to climate change. Dealing with climate change means that the ANC-led government is ensuring a sustainable future of our people in a proactive manner.
Furthermore, the ability to enable the economy and society to adapt to climate change in coordinated and integrated manner. This is a vital step in protecting the environment and human well-being from hazard elements, as well as strengthening individuals and societies with adapting potentials to adjust to the effects of the climate change.
In conclusion, Chairperson, a successful response to climate change must begin with appropriate level framework, the guides and the government response to national disasters and enable and sustainable environment. Lastly, this being is a crucial step in the right direction and it is imperative that we all come together to support and implement this vital legislation for the betterment of all South Africans and ensure sustainable development. The ANC supports this Bill, Chairperson. I thank you.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Voting:
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
NATIONAL SMALL ENTERPRISE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr M I RAYI: Hon House Chairperson, greetings to you and hon members. The Select Committee on Trade and Industry, Economic Development, Small Business Development, Tourism, Employment and Labour, having received submission on the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill [B16B – 2023], and having considered the written submission, reports as follows: That the objects of the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill are to amend the National Small Enterprise Act of 1996, in order to amend, delete, insert and to substitute certain definitions. To
provide for the report of the Advisory Body. Further, to provide for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency, and to provide for the functions of the agency.
In addition, to ensure the provision of financial and non- financial support services to small enterprises. Further, the objects are to promote the development of sustainable and responsible co-operative banking, to provide for the establishment of the office of the Small Enterprise Ombud Service, and to enable an equitable trading environment for small enterprises through the provision of affordable and effective access to justice.
In addition, the aims of the Bill are crafted to empower the Minister to declare certain practices in relation to small enterprises to be prohibited as unfair trading practices and to provide for the transitional arrangements necessitated by the establishment of the agency. Finally, the objects seek to effect consequential or necessary amendments to the Co- operative Banks Act of 2007, and to the Co-operatives Act of 2005, and to provide for matters connected therewith.
The select committee’s process followed in respect of the Bill, the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill was passed by the National Assembly, transmitted to the National Council of Provinces and referred to the Select Committee on Trade and Industry, Economic Development, Small Business Development, Tourism, Employment and Labor on the 6 January 2020.
The Department of Small Business Development briefed the select committee, jointly with the Gauteng Provincial Portfolio Committee on Economic Development, on the 06 February 2024. The committee advertised the Bill, inviting interested stakeholders for public comments, with the closing date for submissions set on the 16 February 2024. Five stakeholders submitted written submissions, namely: Ministry of Economic Finance Opportunities of the Western Cape Province, Letumile Makobe: Chief Executive Officer of Womenpreneurs Business Hub, SA Insurance Association, Durban Chamber, and the SA Reserve Bank.
The Department of Small Business Development and Parliament’s legal adviser responded to issues raised by stakeholders on the written submissions received on 5 March 2024. Thereafter, negotiating mandates meetings were held on 19 and 26 March
2024. The committee met to receive responses from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser and the Department of Small Business Development on issues raised in the negotiating mandates on the Bill. All nine provinces submitted negotiating mandates in favour of the Bill.
The following reflects the vote of the provincial legislatures in respect of the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill [B16B - 2023]. So, all the nine provinces, as I have said, supported the Bill in the negotiating mandates with some having proposed amendments. The final mandates that were submitted by the nine provinces were considered on the 16 April, which were submitted as follow: Eastern Cape voted in favour, Free State voted in favour, Gauteng voted in favour, KwaZulu Natal voted in favour, Limpopo voted in favour, Mpumalanga voted in favour, Northern Cape voted in favour, North West voted in favour, and the Western Cape voted in favour.
So, the outcome of the select committee on the Bill was that after having deliberated on and considered the subject of the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill [B16B-2023], referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports
that it has been agreed to without amendments. Thank you very much, Hon House Chairperson.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF HOUSING CONSUMER PROTECTION BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS, WATER, SANITATION AND HUMAN SETTLEMENTS THEREON
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson of the session, hon permanent delegates, hon special delegates, I’m humble and honoured to table the Report of the Select Committee on Cogta, Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation on the processing of the Housing Consumer Protection Bill, which has been classified as section 76 by our parliamentary joint
... [Inaudible.] mechanism. Hon Chairperson, besides repealing the Housing Consumer Protection Measures Act of 1998, the Bill seeks to transform the housing sector in that as a committee and members of the select committee have acknowledge and accepted that the provisions were not adequate in the first place to provide legal protection for housing consumers against some scrupulous and gravy home builders and the enrolment of homes to be covered by the warranty fund.
I’m delighted to report that the object of this Bill that is before the House today, when our democratic country left with only 24 days before national elections. Have been supported by all the provincial legislatures and permanent delegates in our Select Committee. Have been conferred with the right to vote in favour of the Bill. As I indicated, the Bill seeks to repeal the Housing Consumer Protection Measures Act 95 of 1998 because of the certain challenges which were identify, which impacted negatively on the effective execution of the national home builders registration council’s mandate.
The current Bill seeks to ensure adequate protection of consumers and the effective regulation of the home building industries by strengthening the regulatory mechanisms,
strengthening the protection of housing consumers, introducing effective enforcement mechanisms and prescribing appropriate penalties or sanctions to deter noncompliance by home builders.
The Bill seeks to make reimbursement of housing consumers or losses that they incur in the process. It further seeks to address economic transformation of the home building industry by introducing the warranty supply scheme to be used to watch the human settlement development programs or home builders.
Lastly, hon Chair, the Bill seeks to align and create synergy and alignment with other relevant pieces of legislation. Like the Public Management Finance Act of 1999, as well as the promotion of Administrative Justice Act of 2000.
Hon Chair on behalf of the members of the Select Committee, let me take this opportunity to thank the Minister of Human Settlements hon Mmamoloko Kubayi and the senior departmental officers, for providing leadership and technical Support to permanent members during briefings in the provincial legislatures and public hearings in the provinces. On behalf of the members of the Select Committee, allow me to therefore
report to this House that, having considered and deliberated on the object of the Housing Consumer Protection Bill, classified as section 78 and referred to this committee on the 14th of November 2023. The select committee reports, has been agreed to and with all the amendments that were put in place and on the base of that, we move that this Bill be adopted, hon Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Debate concluded.
Question put. That the Bill agreed to.
Declaration of Vote:
Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chair, the Western Cape supports the Housing Consumer Protection Bill, however we must flag some concerns regarding the process that was followed. It must be stated that the Chairperson of the Select Committee, hon Dodovu ignored the submission by the DA and reaffirmed by both the state law advisor and parliamentary legal advisor to allow for a clause by clause voting process by provinces as part of the negotiating mandate phase in terms of section 76. Instead, he followed the advice of the committee secretary, not to allow for it.
Furthermore, not all submissions by the Western Cape were considered and was left out of both the C-list and D-list of the Bill. The DA believes that this compromises the validity of the law-making process and may open this Bill and other pieces of legislation to be challenged. This can result in the Bill being referred back by either the President or the Court and will lead to wasteful expenditure as the entire process will have to be repeated once again from scratch. I thank you.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Chairperson, the African National Congress, fully supports the adoption of the report on the Housing Consumer Protection Bill as select committee on Corporate Governance, Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation. Over the last ...the ANC led government has developed and passed legislation that seeks to address the legacy of the past by ensuring it provides mechanism for the provision of quality.
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chairperson, can you hear me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I can hear you.
Mr J J LONDT: Chair, I think your mic is not on, I can’t hear you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I can hear you. Are you rising on what?
Mr J J LONDT: Hon member, I just want to check. You asked for provinces to make a declaration, and the member standing is making a declaration on behalf of the party. So, I just want to check if she is making this declaration on behalf of the province or a party?
Ms B M BARTLETT: On behalf of the province, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Continue, hon member.
Ms B M BARTLETT: The aim of the Housing Consumer Protection Bill is to ensure that once approved by Parliament and send it to the President it would guarantee protection not only for government provided houses but also protect households from scrupulous construction companies that are building poor quality houses as they seek to maximise profit at the expense
of our people. Ensured the Bill puts our people before profits as it protects housing consumer.
Hon Chairperson, recommend the provincial legislation supporting the Bill amendments. Indeed, our govern demonstrate its commitment to quality, ensuring that governed upon the construction companies never redo housing projects due to poor workmanship. The passing of the Bill ... deal, huge blow to those involved in corrupt practices in the housing sector, especially the collusion between government employees and human and businesspeople.
Lastly, during the public participation process, our people demonstrated their support for the Bill and gave us a mandate to ensure that we pass the Bill having included their concerns to strengthen the final Bill. I think you’ll double check this.
Voting:
In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, and Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, on a point of order.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Angizwa
Mr T S C DODOVU: Before we proceed to the next order, I am calling a point of order.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Lungu elihloniphekile Dodovu angikuzwa, izwi lakho ngathi lishile.
Mr T S C DODOVU: I am saying that before you proceed to Ninth Order, Hon Chair, I am calling a point of order. Are you allowing me to speak?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, you can continue.
Mr T S C DODOVU: My point of order is, I am reading where we posting on our chats, hon Mokause of the EFF has posted that
the staff of Parliament has joined this criminality of that Council of uniting against her. It means that there is crime that is perpetuating by this Council according to her and that the staff of this NCOP is perpetuating that criminality. This is really out of order. It is uncalled for. You can’t go to that extent labelling the Council you are serving in, a criminal Council and again calling the staff members that they have joined some criminality that we don’t know. I am rising on a point of order because this is not permissible, it is wrong. This sends a very, very bad message and I ask that you rule on that to an extent that she must withdraw this posting that all of us can see that she has posted. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, hon a remember. Hon a remember, because we can’t hear you, even the Table staff can’t help me on what you are raising. And I think if you want us to listen to you, you must correct your mic so that we can hear what you are saying. can we proceed, hon Dodovu?
Mr T S C DODOVU: You can proceed, but I’ve registered that particular point. Go to the chat messages and you will see
what I’m talking about. This is what I’m saying, hon Chair. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): izwi le Lungu elihloniphekile liyangiphazamisa angikuzwa. Ngiyafuna ukukulalela ukuthi uthini kodwa ngicela ukuthi siqhubeke ngoba ngempela angikuzwa.
English:
Really, I can’t hear you.
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chairperson, you’re not missing much. You can continue, yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): hon Dodovu, we will on the chat about the complaint you have raised.
Mr T S C DODOVU: thank you, hon Chair.
CONSIDERATION OF SA POST OFFICE SOC LTD AMENDMENT BILL [B11B– 2023] (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY – SECTION 75) AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ENTERPRISES AND COMMUNICATION THEREON
Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much hon House Chairperson for the opportunity. Greetings to yourself, the colleagues in this House, especially the KwaZulu-Natal special delegates; hon Peggy Nkonyeni, hon Sifiso Sonjica and hon Nhlakanipho Ntombela who are with us. Thank you very much for that. I am humbled to Table this Report in this august House, Chairperson. This is a Report on of the Select Committee on Public Enterprises and Communication on the SA Post Office Soc Ltd Amendment Bill, [B11B–2023] dated 27 March 2024.
The Select Committee on Public Enterprises and Communication had considered the subject of the SA Post Office Soc Ltd Amendment Bill of [B11B–2023], National Assembly – section 75 referred to it, reports that it had agreed to the Bill.
Chairperson, the process followed by the committee; the Bill was referred to the Select committee on Public Enterprises and Communications on 30 November 2023. The committee received a briefing from the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies on 21 February 2024.
The committee acting in accordance with its constitutional obligation to facilitate public participation, invited interested parties to submit comments on the Bill. The
committee advised the Bill on 21 February 2024, inviting all interested stakeholders to submit written submissions and to indicate whether they would like to make an oral submission to the committee. The invitation was advertised for the period of four weeks from 21 February 2024 to 20 March 2024 on the parliamentary website and in community newspapers in all the
11 languages.
Chairperson, the committee received only three submissions from the Congress of SA Trade Unions, the SA National Council of the Blind and the Tape Aids for the Blind, the SA Express Parcel Association and the Prudential Authority prior to the closing date. The former was in support of the Bill. On 27 March 2024, the committee deliberated on the contents of the Bill and considered the issues raised and satisfied itself that the matter raised was properly dealt with during the department’s presentation as it was raised earlier in the National Assembly. The Bill was, therefore, approved with no amendments. Chairperson, I thank you so much.
Declaration(s) of vote:
Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF support the SA Post Office Amendment Bill that is at the brink of collapse as a
necessary intervention of rescue. The SA Post Office is one of the entities that has been destroyed by the ANC’s incompetent directors in government and it is the ordinary people who are suffering the consequences. The SA post offices are closing at a rapid rate with almost 48% of its branches already closed.
This Bill provides us with a small opportunity to salvage a desperate situation. This intervention contained in this Bill is important as the Post Office remain an important means of communication for our people as ... [Inaudible.] ... as grants disbursement. We must once again register that the retrenchments are not a solution to the financial woes of the SA Post Office and are therefore no means of generating revenue but further digging into the grave of the Post Office. The SA Post Office, SAPO, must be an immediate ... [Inaudible.] ... of the closure of the SA post offices in the Amendment Bill is to be of any value.
The Amendment Bill is but short term intervention to ensure that the future generation inherit the Post Office that can render services. Of course, the ultimate solution to rescue public entities that are crucial to the community, however, lies in the role of the government that has destroyed it in
the first place. This can only happen by registering to vote in the 2024 elections and voting for the EFF to remove this incompetent government. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms L C BEBEE: Chairperson, we gather here today just two days before the Freedom Day. A significant day which reminds us that the fruits of the freedom we enjoy today were hard earned. Therefore, we all have the responsibility to protect our democratic gains. This includes strengthening the role of the state and its entities to better serve the people and build a better life for all.
The ANC believes that state-owned enterprises, SOEs, must be channeled towards the implementation of the objectives of the democratic state. It is against this background that we support the SA Post Office Amendment Bill to enable the SAPO to adapt to the evolving needs of customers and communities and ultimately enhance its service delivery and relevance by expanding its mandate and ensuring that the entity is financially sustainable.
The current state of the entity is not desirable and while members from the opposition benches play politics to discredit
the ANC around SAPO. History has no blank pages, it is recorded in history books that it is this very ANC that has been fighting for the livelihood of the SAPO. As a result, has advocated for a bailout which still today has not been adequately accounted for by Mark Barnes and his friends from the opposition. Hon members, we have a collective responsibility to ensure that we save SAPO by passing this Bill and ensuring that the SAPO of tomorrow’s strategy is implemented. As we all know, the SA Post Office plays an integral part in the provision of easily accessible and affordable postal services.
Chairperson, with its massive geographic footprint, it has accessed over 12 million households through the national address database and administers around 800 000 parcel volumes. We have also seen the Post Office play a central role in delivering critical items such as medication and learning materials across the country. We still believe that the Post Office is better placed to assist with the distribution of the set-top boxes, as well as grants to the marginalised and most vulnerable in our society by working with the Postbank and the SA Social Security Agency, SASSA.
Hon Chairperson, we are saddened by the closure of branches and the fact that section 189 has been imposed on the Post Office workers. We plead with the business rescue partners to curb the negative impact of this process on the staff through various means of alternative opportunities ... [Inaudible.]
... through the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, etc. Once again, Chairperson, the ANC support this Bill. I thank you Deputy Chairperson, mama.
Ms C VISSER: On behalf of the ... [Inaudible.] ... considering the continued financial and other operational challenges, it is evident that SAPO sustainability continues to be under extreme threat that will no doubt impact the economy and job losses. That ... [Inaudible.] ... that Transnet, SA Airways, SAA, and other state entities, SAPO could also not withstand the destruction of the ANC government with bad financial management, fraud and corruption and not adhering to technological modernisation.
Deputy Chair, notwithstanding the fact that majority of all rural post offices are completely broken down and damaged to a level that will require millions of rands to rebuild while employees are retrenched with uncertainty of medical aids or
pension funds whilst contributions are still being deducted from their salaries to the last paycheck. The SA Post Office Soc Amendment Bill will do nothing to solve the problems since it is ill-timed and badly drafted. Unfortunately, this Bill will not be able to save the SA Post Office as it hardly exists anymore. The money in this situation will merely become a feeding trough for those who care more about themselves than the destitute South Africans. I thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF DEEDS REGISTRIES AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND REFORM, ENVIRONMENT, MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY THEREON
Ms T C MODISE: Deputy Chairperson, let me present the report on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy on the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B28 - 2022] (National
Assembly - section 75), dated 23 April 2024. The Bill was referred to the committee on 20 February 2024, where-after the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform briefed the committee on the Bill on 12 March 2024. On the 14th of March 2024 the committee placed an advert on the parliamentary
website as well as on all electronic media platforms, calling
for public comments. Only two submissions were received by the committee, which were from the Law Society of South Africa and
Mr H du Toit.
During the deliberations of 16 April 2024, the department responded to the submissions, stating that having considered
all inputs, they are still of the opinion that the Bill as it
has been passed by the National Assembly is sound. The inputs raised were not considered to be of such a nature that they
will improve the Bill, while others, such as the comment stating that the Bill appears to reference gender in some
sections but not in others, were comments on the Bill rather than concrete proposals for insertions, deletions, or amendments.
Considering the proposal amendment would create an incredibly cumbersome process of advertising and passing regulations, and
that there is no precedent for such a process. If implemented, it would unduly delay the work of the Registries Board.
In terms of the suggestion that the Bill specify the number of posts for each registry office, the department and committee
stated that legislating staff members is not practical and
that the number of officials appointed in each office is dependent on the volume of deeds being processed and will not
be a static constant over time.
In terms of the proposed changes to definitions proposed, the department countered, stating that they reject the proposed
changes as being too narrow in application. Deeds are not only
processed in terms of the National Housing Programme and referencing this in the definitions proposed would not be
appropriate.
The department and state legal adviser noted the comment pertaining to the Public Service Act but stated that it is general practice that any reference to an act implies the most recently amended act, thus negating the need for any alteration to such references.
The department further rejected the position that state attorneys lack experience in the registration of the land and rights in the land. The proposed changes to clause 5 were therefore not supported.
The Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy, having deliberated on and considered the subject of the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B28 - 2022] (National Assembly - section 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a section
75. The committee agrees to the Bill without any amendments.
Therefore, the committee requests the House to consider the report. I thank you.
Declarations of Vote:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF supports the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill. Clause three of the Bill proposes an amendment of section 3 of the Deeds Registries Act by extending duties of the registrar. One of which is to record land tenure rights to include the rights which were historically excluded from the statutes due to the apartheid land policies and property rights.
Though the EFF have no problem with this principle, the EFF believes that when these duties are passed to the registrar, legislation should be passed as to how land tenure rights which now have to be recorded by the Registrar of Deeds are going to be established.
It is of concern that the Registrar of Deeds could be bogged down dealing with dubious and unclear rights or become involved in litigation in respect of matters which are somewhat vague.
Lastly, Deputy Chairperson of the Council, we note that there is a proposed change in substance in that the Deeds Registries Regulations Board may no longer make regulations. Our proposal is that regulations must be made by the Minister on the recommendations of the Deeds Registries Regulations Board.
This also appears from the proposed amendment of section 9 of the Principal Act. Having said that Deputy Chairperson, the EFF supports this Bill in this principle. Thank you.
Ms L C BEBEE: Deputy Chairperson, the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill of B28 - 2022, exists to make amendments to the Deeds Registers Act of 1937, so as to substitute certain
obsolete expressions. To delete the reference to a register of mining title or a mining commissioner acting as a registration officer.
To provide for the extension of the duties of the registrar. To provide for the appointment of the alternate members to the Deeds Registries Regulations Board. To provide for the disclosure of the full names and marital status of persons in all deeds and documents to be executed or launched for registration or record in a deeds’ registry.
To provide for the issuing of the certificate of registered title in respect of the fraction of an undebated share in land and to amend certain definitions, and also to provide for matters connected herewith.
As the ANC-led government we want to build a productive economy that requires a balance and stability, when we deal with social, political and economic matters.
The received inputs from stakeholders which were submitted do not hold substance in hindering the process of the acceptance and implementation of the Bill.
We also have to outline that other provided alternatives to the process will create an incredibly cumbersome process of advertising and passing regulations and that there is no precedence for such process.
When it comes to the matter of legislating staff, it was seen that it cannot be practical, and the number of officials appointed in each office is independent. So, the volume of deeds being processed and will not be static constant over time.
We did not support the matter or changes in clause five, due to state at any lack of experience in matters dealing with registration of land and rights in land. This legislation streamlines the deed registration to serve current economic development interests, including the registration of state land, as well as ensuring the land reform occurs within a proper legal framework.
The Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy, having deliberated on the considered the subject of the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill of B28 - 2022 National Assembly, section 75 referred to it and classified by
the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as section 75 Bill, agrees, to the Bill without amendments. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF PENSION FUNDS AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE THEREON
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Deputy Chairperson, allow me to present the Report on Pension Funds Amendment Bill dated 25 April 2024. I hereby present for the Council’s consideration the Select Committee Report on the Pension Funds Amendment Bill. The Bill was referred to the NCOP from the National Assembly on 27 March 2024. The objective of the 2024 Pension Funds Amendment
Bill is to amend various legislation, this being the Pension Funds Act of 1956, the Post and Telecommunication Related Matters Act of 1958, the Transnet Pension Funds Act of 1990, and the Government Employees Pension Law of 1996, to enable retirement funds to implement the amendment to the income tax contained in the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill. The amendments in the Revenue Laws Amendments Bill give effect to the policy objectives of the two-pot system.
On 26 March 2024, the committee received a briefing on the Bill from the National Treasury. We then received four submissions from the Congress of South African Trade Unions, the Association for Savings and Investment South Africa, and Institute of Retirements Funds Africa, Government Employees Pension Fund and Mrs J Snyders. The committee held public hearings considered the Bill clause-by-clause and considered policy issues. The National Treasury responded to the issues raised during the public participation process on the same day.
The report details the issue that were raised during the public consultation process and the responses by the National Treasury, among others, these are: One, the implementation
date of 01 September 2024, some stakeholders felt that this date must be stringently adhered to, while others express reservation about the feasibility of meeting this deadline; two, further engagements post the passage of the Bill; three, some omissions and errors in the current Bill; and four, concerns with safety, taxing, and access to pension funds by multiple parties. The National Treasury responded to all these concerns and issues raised by the stakeholders.
The committee having made several observations made the following recommendations: National Treasury should table legislation in Parliament on time to enable the committee to conduct effective public participations. The committee on other recommendation made in the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill report that as the withdrawals are to be taxed at the marginal rate and will be a huge percentage of what it is withdrawn, it is extremely likely that most of those who withdraw from their funds will be very disappointed, and maybe even very frustrated. It is important that National Treasury, SA Revenue Service, Sars, Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu and the pension fund industry inform and educate members about the tax implications of accessing their savings in the two-pot
system before retirement. The committee urges that this be done.
The National Treasury and Sars should monitor the tax implication on individuals and the state with a view of easing the tax burden on withdrawals made in terms of the two-pot system in the future iterations of the Bill. The National Treasury and Sars should consider the proposal made by Association for Savings and Investment South Africa, Asisa, and Cosatu after approved of the Pension Fund Bills. National Treasury and the relevant stakeholders should ensure that implementation and communication plans exist, and report on progress made to ensure that all processes are in place to implement the pension fund legislation on 01 September 2024, seamlessly within three weeks after the constitution of the incoming seventh term of Parliament Select Committee on Finance. Hon Deputy Chairperson, I now present the report of the select committee for consideration by the House. I thank you.
Debate concluded.
Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.
Declaration of Vote:
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Chair, today we gather to address a matter of the utmost importance that affects the very fabric of our financial freedom, the Pension Funds Bill. First and foremost, let us acknowledge the inherent significance of pension funds and securing stable and prosperous future for retirees. As these funds represent the culmination of years of hard work, dedication and for natural prudence. They serve as a lifeline for individuals as they transition into retirement, providing them with means to sustain their livelihoods and enjoy the dignified existence.
However, it is with deep concern that we address the provisions outlined in the Pension Funds Bill. While we recognise the need for prudent regulation to safeguard pension funds, and we cannot overlook the restrictive nature of certain clauses within this Bill. One of the most troubling aspects of the Bill is the limitation placed on individuals’ ability to withdraw the bulk of their pension funds for reinvestment in private businesses. This restriction not only
curtails the entrepreneurial aspirations of our citizens but also undermines the principles of economic freedom and self- determination upon which our nation was founded.
As advocates for individual liberty and economic empowerment, the Freedom Front Plus vehemently opposes such infringements on our citizens’ rights. We believe in fostering an environment that encourages innovation, entrepreneurship, and self-reliance. Restricting access to pension funds not only stifles economic growth but also perpetuates dependency on state welfare systems.
In conclusion, we call upon our fellow lawmakers to reconsider the provisions of the Pension Funds Bill in the light of the concerns raised. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Ms K M MUTHWA: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF or the Economic Freedom Fighters approaches the Pension Funds Amendment Bill with a mix of recognition for its immediate relief potential and concern for the underlying systemic issues it highlights. While the Pension Funds Amendment Bill may offer temporary relief to some, it does little to address the root causes of the economic hardship facing workers.
The Economic Freedom Fighters believes that a fundamental restructuring of the economy is needed to ensure long-term prosperity for all South Africans. This includes implementing policies that prioritise the interests of workers over those of corporations and multinational interests.
In conclusion, while the EFF acknowledges and supports the immediate need for relief provided by the Pension Funds Amendment Bill, we remain steadfast in our commitment to addressing the systemic inequalities perpetuated by the ANC government. Only through transformative economic policies that prioritise the needs of the people over profit can we build a truly just and equitable society.
Such policies can only come about through the EFF, the only organisation which has very ambitious plans for South Africa to wrench it out of the control of imperialists who are using the ANC as their administrator. As we head to the national and provincial elections, we urge all South Africans to vote for the EFF. The EFF supports the Bill.
An HON MEMBER: We are not voting the EFF.
Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chair, I said more than enough in committee already. The DA supports the Bill. Thank you.
Mr Y I CARRIM: Deputy Chairperson, firstly, I can’t follow and I’m afraid to say what Mr Fanie Du Toit of the Freedom Front Plus, I just cannot follow what he said, and he didn’t raise this in the committee, which is a great pity. However, as far as I can tell, he says that on the one hand, people need economic freedom to do what they want, their savings ... [Inaudible.] ... to the businesses. On the other hand, he recognises that if people use up all their pensions’ allocations, what they’ve saved, then the state will have to come to the rescue with social welfare benefits.
Now, this Bill actually seeks to give people the opportunity on the one hand to withdraw money because they’re highly distressed given the 2008 financial crisis, coronavirus disease, Covid, and so on. Therefore, on the other hand, it allows them to do that, but it also recognises that they should seek as far as possible to be prudent about it because when they retire, they will have less available to them.
Secondly, on the EFF I don’t know what they’re saying either. This came from the SA Congress of Textile Workers and only this morning they asked me to speak about pension fund and the response, indeed, is very interesting. I couldn’t stay too long because I had to go to the 10:00 meeting of our committee, but they still feel 01 September is too far away, they’re pretty desperate.
Thirdly, of course, we accept that there’re inequalities in the country. I mean, that’s precisely why we’re saying this is a temporary measure. We’re not saying that by having this Pension Funds Amendments that somehow the rest of the problems fade away. Therefore, you see the EFF says that they are a working-class Marxist, socialist organisation, Leninist, Fanonist, whatever they say, but when it comes to workers’ interests, the question arises why, if they are that organisation in practice, not just in words. They seem hesitant about this, they will vote for it, but they have qualifications and hesitancies. The fact of the matter is that this came from the workers. It came from SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, in particular, and was taken up by Cosatu and other trade unions.
Therefore, it is the ANC that says the motive force for the National Democratic Revolution is the working-class and its allies, and we do it in practice, not least by ensuring that this Bill comes from ANC government and is passed by a majority ANC committee. Finally, we must thank the DA for their very valuable contributions to the processing of this Bill. Thank you very much.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
SECOND ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
Vote No 1 – Presidency – put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance – put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put and agreed to. VOTE 6
Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – put and agreed to.
Vote
No
12
– Public
Service Commission – put and agreed to.
Vote to.
No
13
– Public
Works and Infrastructure – put and agreed
Vote
No
20
– Women,
Youth and Persons with Disabilities – put
and agreed to.
Vote No 25 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put and agreed to.
Vote No 27 – Office of the Chief Justice – put and agreed to.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order.
Mr I NTSUBE: You are late again.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am not late.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Mokause, you may continue with your point of order. You don’t have to respond to everyone that speaks.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Ntsube must learn to respect our Chair because if we don’t respect our Whip ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Motsamai, does hon Mokause need an advocate? [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
Mr K MOTSAMAI: I am saying if he doesn’t respect Mokause, we are also not going to respect you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Mokause, you called for a point of order. Should I take it that you don’t have a point of order?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I have a point of order, Chair, and the point of order is on you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Yes.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: The way that sometimes you become clumsy. The Whips have agreed that we are going to raise our objections or our agreement at the end of the Schedule because anyway, the money has been paid. You have been doing all the wrong things there on the table. We don’t know what is happening with you. You are taking us back. That money has already been spent ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Hon delegates, I don’t think that is a point of order ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is not even correcting you ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): ... before we proceed to the voting.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is not even correcting the stupidity there
...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): We shall now allow political parties ... Can someone please mute the hon Mokause?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not going to mute me.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): We shall now allow political parties an opportunity to make their declaration of votes in terms of Rule 78 if they so wish on the Schedule.
Declaration of votes:
Afrikaans:
Mnr M A P DE BRUYN: Agb Voorsitter, die doel van die verdeling van fondse is veronderstel om te verseker dat die nasionaal- gegenereerde inkomste, regmatig tussen al drie die regeringsphere verdeel word en ook dat elke provinsie, sy regmatige deel van die belastinggeld ontvang, ten einde toe te sien dat die nodige dienste gesamentlik en afsonderlik deur munisipaliteite, provinsiale wetgewers, asook die nasionale regering, aan die burgery gelewer word.
English:
Furthermore, transparency and accountability are non- negotiable principles in the allocation of public funds. The Division of Revenue Bill must be accompanied by stringent oversight mechanisms to prevent corruption and mismanagement.
Taxpayers’ money should be utilized efficiently and responsibly, with full transparency regarding its allocation and expenditure.
Afrikaans:
Ongelukkig is dit juis slinksheid, korrupsie en blote arrogante inhaligheid, wat al drie die regeringsvlakke in hierdie haglike toestand gedompel het.
’n Reuse deel van die verskillende begrotingsposte aan wie daar wel addisionele fondse toegeken is, is bloot om die regering se salarispakket aan te vul, nie om te verseker dat daar beter dienste gelewer word nie.
Die ANC se politieke propaganda word deur middel van die Presidensiële werkskeppingsinisiatief gedryf. En die belastingbetalers moet die rekening optel.
English:
Moreover, it is essential to prioritize funding for key sectors such as education, health care, infrastructure, and job creation. These are the building blocks of a prosperous and equitable society. Investment in education and skills
development is particularly crucial, as it does not only enhance individual opportunities but also drives economic growth and innovation.
As we debate and deliberate on the Division of Revenue Bill, let us not lose sight of the overarching goal: the betterment of our nation and its people. Let us transcend partisan interests and work towards a future where every South African can thrive, regardless of their background or circumstances.
Afrikaans:
Alle Suid-Afrikaners kry swaar. Die ANC moet die trekpas kry, as gevolg hiervan. Slegs dán sal daar werklike herstelling en genesing in die land kom. ’n Toekoms sonder die ANC sal werklik ’n toekoms wees om na uit te sien. Dankie.
English:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, we are declaring.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can you
unmute?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Muthwa is in the House. She is declaring on behalf of the EFF.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): She is
here. Does she need an advocate?
Ms K M MUTHWA: Chairperson, the Appropriation Bill is a Bill that is introduced and passed by both Houses of Parliament every year because it is a legal instrument that we, as elected Members of Parliament, allocate money to be spent by the national departments. The EFF rejects this Bill in its totality because it continues to be based on the principle of budget cuts, austerity measures, and the obsession with reducing the budget deficit when there are no practical and believable measures to use fiscal policy to support economic growth and deliver services to our people at the time when the country is facing a crisis of load shedding.
We reject the Appropriation Bill because there is no allocation of additional funds for the generation of additional power. After all, the plan is to collapse Eskom. We reject this Bill because most of our local municipalities have collapsed. We reject Bill because the people of Orangeville in
Metsimaholo have no clean water to drink. We reject this Bill because the people of Matjhabeng and Kopanong in the Free State, the people of Sarah Baartman in the Eastern Cape, and various other communities across all provinces are still struggling with access to clean water. This Bill is failing to talk to the needs of the people. The EFF rejects the Appropriation Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I am sure
you want to say Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill for the record. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: For the record, we corrected you for the first time ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Go away
[Suka].
Mr S J MOHAI: Please keep quiet. Don’t disrupt this House, Mokause, please behave. [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Where are you coming from? You are sleeping, Chief Whip ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, can you respect other people? We listened attentively when your member was speaking. Respect the DA’s member now.
Mr D R RYDER: The DA would like to call for a division on the Schedule as a whole. Thank you.
Ms L N MOSS: Deputy Chairperson, the world continues to recover from the devastating coronavirus pandemic, which affected global supply value chains and led to deeper economic control action since World War 2. The global economy is further worsened by the Russia/Ukraine conflict and the Israeli genocide would impact several regions. The introduction of various physical policy interventions has led to an economic recovery of multiple economies, with many countries returning to pre-pandemic economic performance levels.
Fiscal policy is a critical macroeconomic component, which has a significant impact on the economy and thus on development.
The South African government has taken fiscal policy decisions which continue to prioritize the social ... [Inaudible.] ... constituting 61% of the state expenditure. Fiscal policy also
plays a critical role in stimulating the demand in the economy through increasing household incomes and compensation to public service employees.
Chairperson, the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill is a critical appropriation as it enables different departments to adjust the distribution of the appropriation of the vote to respond to emerging needs within a financial year. The Second Adjustments Appropriation Bills before us are just nine votes with major adjustments for the Department of Home Affairs to support the political parties’ funding operations and from the Co-operative Governance Vote to support the Presidential Employment Initiative. The ANC supports the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill, as it enhances the implementation of government programmes. I thank you.
Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.
Declaration of votes made on behalf of Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and African National Congress.
Division demanded.
The Council divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Schedule agreed to (Freedom Front Plus, Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting)
CONSIDERATION OF SECOND ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION (2023/24 FINANCIAL YEAR) BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS THEREON
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Chief Whip, hon members, special delegates present on the platform and fellow South Africans ...
IsiNdebele:
... ngiyanilotjhisa namhlanje.
English:
Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is my privilege to table before this House, the Report on the Second Adjustments Appropriations Bill, that is [B6–2024], on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations. The committee adopted the
report. While the DA and the FF Plus rejected the report, the EFF reserved its position on the report. Hence. The ANC is reflected as having supported the Bill.
Hon Chairperson and members, section 213(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa provides that, money may be withdrawn from the National Revenue Fund only in terms of an appropriation by an Act of Parliament. The Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill was tabled by the Minister of Finance on 21 February 2024.
Section 12(15A) the Money Bills and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009 provides that after the National Assembly passed the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, the Bill must be referred to the National Council of Provinces and referred to the Select Committee on Appropriations. The National Assembly passed and transmitted this Bill for concurrence to the National Council of Provinces on 26 March 2024.
Hon Chairperson and members, to facilitate public participation and involvement and in compliance with section.
72 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, an advert ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair, I am rising on a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): What is
your point of order?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair with due respect, the leadership of the Council which comprises of all the political parties across the National Council of Provinces, agreed that the two orders must not be done individually. They must be read as one. We declared on the previous adjustment. Now, you are making us to go and say the same thing whilst the Chief Whip of the Council communicated that we are going to do both the Bills as one and parties agreed. So, I don’t understand what you are doing there. I don’t understand what confusion you are causing there.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, thank you. We will allow the other parties. Hon Ryder is indicating that he has got a different view from your view.
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, are you telling me that you are disregarding ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I was not
part of your ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Can you listen to the other members of the Council.
An HON MEMBER: We are not part of the Whips’ Forum.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I was not
part of your committee... [Interjections.] I was not part of your committee. So, I’m listening to all the members. Hon Ryder you may continue.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Are you telling me that you are disregarding the Chief Whip of the Council who comes from the ANC? Are you saying that? What are you saying?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Mokause
can you allow us to continue, hon Ryder.
Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chair, the hon Mokause is exposing herself because the reality is that the schedule is entirely separate and the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA requires a voting on the schedule and a separate voting on the report and the Bill ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not the Whip. Your Whip agreed. You are not a Whip Ryder; you are just a member there. You are just a member there. You are not briefed.
Mr D R RYDER: The two matters cannot be conflated and must be dealt with separately. This process is correct. The agreement was held that the schedules would be dealt with as one all in one together. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I have been Chairing this process for the past five years and we’ve been doing it like that. According to the information at my disposal, you have only agreed on the issue of declarations at the level of the schedule, but we should still adopt the Bill. So, we continue. Hon Mahlangu, you may continue and finalise your report.
Mr J J LONDT: Sorry, hon Deputy Chair.
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Yoh! Yoh!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Londt
... [Laughter.] Hon Mahlangu you may continue.
Ms D G MAHLANGU: I hope my minutes are reserved.
Mr J J LONDT: Sorry Deputy Chair, my hand is raised. I didn’t want to just interrupt. But because I think maybe didn’t see my hand, I am now raising my voice.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes.
Mr J J LONDT: I do respect how you chair. I mean, heckling is definitely allowed in the House. But this constant screaming from the side from hon Mokause is really getting tiresome. Hon Ryder made a very valid point, but half of it was lost because of the screaming from the side. You have muted hon Mokause a few times now. But at some stage this is becoming too much, and this screaming is becoming unbearable. So, I am not going
to do your job hon Deputy Chair, but if you can in some stages consider that it keeps going on.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Order, I am not afraid of the master I am not afraid of a white master. You need to underline that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Londt,
I don’t think you are assisting because hon Mokause would also want to respond to you. Can we please continue hon Mahlangu.
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson ...
IsiZulu:
... malibongwe kuleyo ndawo ...
English:
... and hopefully my minutes have been reserved. Chairperson and members of the House, to facilitate public participation and involvement and in compliance with section 72 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, an advertisement was published on the website of Parliament and social media accounts, inviting the public and all interested stakeholders
to make written submissions in as far as the Bill is concerned.
Hon Chair, in addition to the National Treasury briefing the Committee on the contents of the Bill on 06 March 2024, the committee also consulted with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC and the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO on 20 and 27 March 2024. During a public hearing held jointly with the Standing. Committee on Appropriations on 13 March 2024, an oral submission was made by Cosatu and Public Service Accountability Monitor.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, upon approval by the President, the Minister of Finance should gazette the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill [B6 – 2024] the one on the table, which provides for a net adjustment of R290 million across functions and economic classifications to absorb the 2023-24 wage agreement increases in the Education, Health, and Security sectors.
The National Treasury, together with the Departments of Basic Education, Health and the Security cluster and their provincial counterparts should, within 60 days after the
adoption of this report by this august House, develop clear plans to ensure that additional funds are properly utilised for the intended purpose, which is to implement the 2023-24 wage agreement without delays and ensure that frontline service delivery personnel are prioritised. Parliament will continue to monitor the implementation through relevant sector committees in the Seventh Administration.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs should, within 60 days after the adoption of this report by the House, develop clear measures to address delays in the appointment of service providers for the Community Works Programme, CWP, and further develop plans to mitigate the service delivery impact of the R400 million reduction from this programme. The committee is of the view that underspending due to inefficiencies has the potential to undermine the important fight against unemployment, poverty, and inequality.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure should, within 60 days after the adoption of the report by this august House, develop clear measurable and quantified plan to address unfilled funded
vacancies and other inefficiencies impacting negatively on service delivery, which led to R70 million budget reduction. The committee finds this unacceptable, as it potentially undermines the important fight against the triple challenge.
Hon Deputy Chair and hon members, our last recommendation is that National Treasury should, within 60 days after the adoption of this report by this august House, develop measures to ensure that there is continuous improvement in the level of transparency when it comes to national budget matters, particularly the explanation of budget adjustments, which have the potential to impact negatively on service delivery programmes.
In conclusion Chairperson and hon members, I would really want to thank all the committee members across political lines, provincial committee members, committee stakeholders, media, the public as well as committee support staff. Deputy Chairperson, without all these role-players, this work would not have been done successfully with ease. Therefore, the committee recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted without amendments. Thank you.
IsiNdebele:
Ngiyathokoza.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, we have no declaration. We don’t support it, and we have no declaration. No declaration at this stage and we do not support it. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair of the Council, we would like to put it categorically clear that whether the money is spent or not, the EFF will never support anything to be spent by the ANC because we all know that where the money is going is where corruption is and it is where the looting is going to happen.
The people of the Eastern Cape, the people of the Northern Cape and the people of Gauteng still have pit toilets. Where is the money in 30 years of governance? Kids still fall into pit toilets in provinces like the Eastern Cape and many other provinces. You have been in government in 30 years of democracy, and where did the money go to? People still drink filthy water in the Northern Cape, people still drink filthy
water in Hammanskraal, and people still contract cholera in Hammanskraal, but yet you’ve been in government for 30 years. We are driving throughout the rest of the country in potholes, but you’ve been in government for 30 years.
Chairperson, it is only the looting that is happening. Therefore, this adjustment is rejected with the contempt it deserves by the EFF. When we take over government we are going to show you how we are going to spend government money and give people, the previously disadvantaged South Africans ... [Interjections.] ... we reject this.
Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, before I start the full disclosure I wrote the first paragraph of the declaration before today’s outburst. As we near the end of our five years together, all members should be well-versed with the requirements of their positions, but sadly it is not so. Sadly, many of us have become accustomed to the same ritual of the National Assembly of endorsing the executive’s demands to meet and feed the corrupt and ineffective machine that it has created, and then the NCOP simply rubberstamps the decisions of the Assembly.
We only hold our hope that today it would be indifferent because the Bill before us is unquestionable. The executive has proposed taking money away from the people who need it most and pay it directly to the wealthy. And the National Assembly has endorsed this. Let me explain.
The Community Work Programme and the Expanded Public Works Programme are aimed at providing the very basic work and the basic level of skills to the people in need of support. And in exchange for this they could get a small stipend. As much as the system has been abused its intention is a lofty one and the work of some of the projects that are run through both the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, and the Community Work Programme, CWP, have a great impact on the lives of South Africans, and not only to the beneficiaries, but also to the communities that they serve. The ANC-led executive is removing R408 million from these two projects through the Bill that lies before us for consideration. Along with another R62 million from the Public Works, this money is going to be used to give R200 million to the Represented Political Parties Fund. Yes, colleagues, you are taking money away from the poor to fund the posters that the ANC forgot to buy.
At this point I want to draw your attention to section 30 of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, which lays out the criteria for adjustment budgets. Adjustments must be as a result of, among other things, unforeseen expenditure. But we are moving money to the political parties. What is unforeseen there? The inability of the ANC to manage its finances. We all knew that long ago.
In addition, the Bill asks us to move R70 million to fund the Office of the Minister of Electricity. What is unforeseen about this expenditure? We told you that it is going to need funding. Essentially, members, you are being asked to vote for a Bill that goes against the principles of the Public Finance Management Act and some members are not being asked, but they are being instructed. The DA rejects this report and this careless Bill outright. Moreso, we reject the notion that this House merely does the bidding of the executives. The eyes of South Africa are upon us. Vote carefully today because the people get their chance on 29 May. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The ANC!
Ms M O MOKAUSE: The ANC is dead, and you don’t know.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, is
there no declaration? If there is none, we will continue.
Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, I think somebody was allocated to do the declaration. Only if I may because the person seems to be unconnected. I don’t know. May I be offered it as I am in the committee?
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Please do it.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Is Mahlangu now chairing, nogal please do?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Carrim
has done his declaration, and that is what he is saying. He has done his declaration and that is what he is saying. Hon members, we will now allow one minute for delegates who are outside the Chamber and the virtual platform to join the House. Where’s hon Muthwa?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: She is on virtual, Chair.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 17:27.
Audio
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