Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 16 Nov 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
WEDNESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 2016
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
MINISTERS:
Implementation of language policy in Department of Justice and language related challenges in courts of law
254. Mrs M R M Mothapo (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and the Correctional Services:
With reference to the Use of Official Languages Act, Act 12 of 2012, which seeks to ensure that South Africa‘s linguistic diversity and respect for language rights as part of social cohesion and nation building is both protected and advanced, social justice is served and the principle of equal access to proceedings in our courts is enhanced, what is his department doing in order to (a) deal with the language-related challenges which can have a serious impact on those brought before our courts of law and (b) ensure that all brought before a court of law do understand the interpretation of the law and proceedings? NO2889E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, may I, in terms of Rule 142(2), have two extra minutes for this first reply as it‘s a bit longer?
The question is around language policy. In 2014 the Department of Justice developed a language policy as required by the Use of Official Language Act of 2012. In terms of the policy, three other languages in addition to English were designated as official languages for the purposes of conducting business at a service point in a province concerned. The designation of official languages per province is based on the prevalence of other languages spoken in the province concerned. We have an attachment that we can submit which details those languages.
The language policy will be implemented gradually on the basis of the availability of resources and implementation will commence in the next financial year, 2017-18.
But this language policy excludes languages used in court proceedings. In matters that come before our courts, the department is enjoined to give effect to the constitutional imperative of a fair trial which includes providing court interpretation in the language that is understood by the accused and the witnesses. That is specifically in terms of section 35(3)(k) of the Constitution.
So, with regard to court proceedings, there are two dimensions in the use of languages. The department provides services of court interpreters for this purpose and Justice College conducts ongoing training and court interpretation to improve the quality of interpretation.
From a historical perspective, court interpretation services are mainly provided for an accused and witnesses who speak any other official language other than English and in some cases Afrikaans. The court interpretation service will then interpret the testimony of the latter into English or Afrikaans.
There is, however, an evolving discourse on the need to use any of the 11 official languages as a language of proceedings where circumstances so require. This will, for example, be in instances where all parties, including the presiding officer and the legal teams, speak a common African language. The envisaged policy in such instances will be that proceedings will be conducted in that African language understood by the parties, with the proviso that the record be translated, should this be necessary for purposes of appeal or review.
We ran a pilot project in selected courts. This will assist us to develop a firm policy on that. I must also mention that we have a problem with regard to language interpretation, and this is the large number of non- nationals who make use of our courts and the need for them to also to have interpretation. Some of the most prevalent languages that are demanded by accused persons include Igbo, Chichewa, Amharic, Urdu, Swahili and Shona. These languages are demanded even if the official languages of the country of origin of the accused non-national are either French or English. We are therefore developing policy on this issue as well which will mainly entitle the accused person to the interpretation of the official language of his or her country of origin and not necessarily the home language, unless the interpretation in such language is easily accessible. Thank you.
Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, the National Development Plan, NDP, enjoins all South Africans to learn at least one indigenous language as part of nation-building and social cohesion. Has your department thought of engaging with the Department of Higher Education and Training with a view to making indigenous languages inclusive of the law curriculum? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thanks, hon Mothapo. We haven‘t had formal engagement with the Department of Higher Education and Training, but we have had informal engagements with some of the universities. Those of us who are slightly older may recall that, up until the late eighties, to practice as an attorney or an advocate you needed English, Afrikaans and Latin. Those requirements, particularly the Latin one, were abolished.
The issue that we are raising is whether there shouldn‘t be an additional indigenous African language that is used. I understand that students at the University of KwaZulu-Natal are being taught in or have to learn another language. That is something that we are engaged in discussion on with the universities. Thank you.
Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Speaker, I am asking the question on behalf of hon Louw.
Sengwathiswa sa bo 9, section 9 of the Bill of Rights, se re netefalletsa tshirelletso ya ditshwanelo tsa botho ka tekatekano tlasa tsamaiso ya molao. Mme, ditshwanelo tsena le netefalletso ena ke lefela la mafela mme ha di re letho, ha fela e le hore katamelo ya baahi makgotleng a dinyewe ha e phethahatswe ka hobane ba hanelwa ho bua dipuo tsa bona tsa setso.
Jwale, re batla hotseba hore na ke mohla neng makgotla a nyewe a tla dumella batho ba Manamolela, batho ba Thohoyandou, batho ba Phuhaditjhaba, batho ba Lusikisiki hore batle ba fihlelle ditshebelletso tsa makgotla a dinyewe ka maleme ohle a puo: Sesotho, Isixhosa, Xhitsonga, Tshivenda, Sepedi le Setswana. Mme re batla hore lefapha le itlame hore selemo sena se tlang ha se na fela hono ho eso phethahatswe. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)
[Section 9 of the Bill of Rights guarantees the protection of human rights under the rule of law. And yet these rights
and guarantees mean nothing if the courts of law are not accessible to communities because they are denied their right to express themselves in their mother tongue.
Now we would like to know when the courts of law will allow the people of Malamulele, Thohoyandou, Phuthaditjhaba, and Lusikisiki access to the courts of law in all the languages: Sesotho, Isixhosa, Xhitsonga, Tshivenda, Sepedi and Setswana. Therefore we want the department to make a commitment to implement this by the end of the next year.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL
DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, currently people do have the right to use any language they wish to in the courts.
Currently in the courts it‘s mainly English or Afrikaans that are used as the medium. People can use whichever language they want to use.
As I have said — and I am not sure whether the hon member had followed it entirely — there is a policy that we are trying to implement where everybody in the courts speaks the same language as a way of ensuring that the court is then run in that language.
However, for appeals and reviews, that language will then have to be translated into English.
But, basically, everybody does have access to the courts in whatever language they wish to use. I read in the media that somebody had approached the High Court in Gauteng with a divorce application which was drafted in Sepedi. So that is currently being used. Thank you.
Mrs G BREYTENBACH: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister is it in your view not necessary to also address this language problem by treating court interpreters in a more professional fashion? Have you considered appointing more interpreters to alleviate the shortage and then give interpreters sufficient training and prior warning before you expect them to interpret complicated legal and other terminology in complex cases? Have such directives be considered and if not, why not?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL
DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, interpreters are trained by Justice College in an effort to increase the standards. Obviously, as I said, part of the complication is that it is not just interpretation into South African languages, but it‘s also interpretation into foreign languages, given the high number of foreign nationals on our shores.
In terms of paying court interpreters better, I am sure they would appreciate that. The issue obviously is one of
budget and, if Parliament votes us more money for that purpose, we can address that. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, I think it‘s important to draw a distinction between the language of record and the language that people are allowed to speak in court. You are quite right in saying that any person accused or the presiding officer can speak any language and its gets interpreted.
But, I think, my question relates to the level of interpretation and the standard of skill of the interpreters because a lot of the legal jargon can be lost in translation. To what extent are these interpreters trained to understand legal jargon? And is there any legislation that we have that defines the role of court interpreters.
I believe it‘s important that we have some kind of legislative framework that defines their role, especially in situations in which people are tried for serious cases like murder and rape and are maybe even wrongfully convicted, for that matter, because of incorrect interpretation. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL
DEVELOPMENT: Hon Speaker, we can look at that issue, but I would just like to point out that, if there is incorrect interpretation, that could obviously result in a conviction being overturned on review.
But one of the problems is this large number of non-South African languages. Often, when one acquires a Somali interpreter, for example, one is not necessarily assured of the quality of that interpretation but that is the case given the shortage of Somali interpreters in South Africa or Somali interpreters with formal qualifications.
So, it is a complex issue but we can look at the issue that the hon member has raised. As I have said, training is conducted for interpreters by Justice College. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Speaker, I had requested that this question stand down because the Minister would have liked to have answered it himself. The Minister, just for the benefit of the House, is attending the Assembly of States Parties of the International Criminal Court in The Hague. So, could I request that this question stand over, please?
HON MEMBERS: No! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: So, hon members, this is a situation that we cannot do anything about except to let the question have another opportunity back in the House when the Minister can attend.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, may I address you?
The SPEAKER: On what grounds, hon Waters?
Mr M WATERS: Well, firstly, on section 55 of the Constitution – 55(2) to be precise, where it says that ?the National Assembly must provide for mechanisms — (a) to ensure that all executive organs of state?, which includes the executive, ?in the national sphere of government are accountable to it?, which is what we are currently doing?, and obviously, in relation to Rule 138, Questions to Ministers – that is what I am addressing you on.
Speaker, the Minister was well aware of his obligations to be in the House today to address these questions. Ministers are given due notice to be here. Whilst we were informed that the Minister would be overseas and that the Deputy Minister would try and answer the questions, it is quite clear the Deputy Minister cannot do so. If that is the case – I don‘t think the question should just stand down – in accordance with Rule 138(5), I thus request that the
question is deferred to the next question day, which is next week Wednesday, and that an additional 30 minutes is added onto the time for questions so that the Minister, who wants to answer this question, can come here and answer the question properly. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: We will consider your request, hon Waters. We come to Question 273.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, with all due respect, if you say can consider the request, that means you may not consider it.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Waters. Please, let us not start arguing about this now.
Mr M WATERS: We just need ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, I have heard you. May I proceed? May I just proceed with the business of the House?
Mr I M OLLIS: We need an answer!
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, if I may, Rule 138(5) is quite clear:
If a Minister is absent on a day when a question relating to the relevant cluster is called and the question is not
answered by the Deputy Minister concerned or another Cabinet member in accordance with Subrules (3) and (4), the Speaker may, if requested to do so by the member in whose name the question to that Minister stands, and after consultation with the Leader of Government Business, direct that —
(a) such question to that Minister be placed on the Question Paper for the first question session for Ministers following that day; and (b) an additional 30 minutes be added to the question time for that session.
That is what we are requesting. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I have heard you, hon Waters, as I have said, and so, there is no problem.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, can you take your seat so we can proceed to Question 273, asked by the hon Molebatsi to the Minister of Police?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Speaker, in light of the fact that, several hours ago, I wrote to you in relation to the refusal by the executive director to provide written answers to this parliamentary question and others, of course, whether for Written or for Oral Reply, I therefore ask that Rule 144(1), which allows us to ask for this question to stand over, be invoked, so that it gives an opportunity to the hon Speaker to deal with the issue.
Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I would therefore allow for consideration of the issues that the Minister is raising before the House and ask the House to proceed to Question 256, asked by the hon Hlengwa.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Waters?
Mr M WATERS: Thank you. Speaker, on what grounds is the Minister refusing to answer the question? This is an oral question session. The Minister is quite aware of it. The question has been asked and put to him. It has passed all the internal Rules, so it is a legitimate Question for Oral Reply and the Minister is here, from the executive, to reply to the question. We are here to hold the executive to
account. On what basis and on what Rule is he refusing to answer the question?
The SPEAKER: The Minister is making reference to issues that sound like they are internal to the department. [Interjections.] As things stand, the House cannot do much about that. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: It can! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: In fact, there is nothing we can do about it, hence I am saying, rather than waste our time, we allow ourselves to proceed to Question 256. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, may I address you? We are not wasting our time. In fact, the Minister is wasting our time by refusing to answer the questions.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Mr M WATERS: We‘re here to do a job, and we spoke about this yesterday. We spoke about it today in the Chief Whips‘ Forum and in the Rules meeting earlier on – to hold the executive to account. Yet here you are, allowing a Minister to get away with not answering a question!
We are supposed to apply the Rules, equally, to every member of this House, without fear or favour. I will put it to you, Speaker, that what you are doing is allowing the Minister to get off the hook by not answering questions.
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, we are actually doing things according to the Rules. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: No, you‘re not! You‘re not!
The SPEAKER: A question ...
An HON MEMBER: Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Let me finish.
An HON MEMBER: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Let me finish.
An HON MEMBER: You are a failure!
The SPEAKER: According to Rule 144, a Question for Oral Reply must stand over if the Minister to whom it is addressed so requests, either in the Assembly when the question is called for reply or by notice in writing to the
Speaker before the start of question time on the day for which it is on the Question Paper. So, there is no reason for us to be arguing about this.
I now come to ...
Mr Z N MBHELE: Speaker, on a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: What‘s the point of order?
Mr Z N MBHELE: On your left, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
Mr Z N MBHELE: Speaker, with respect, regarding the Minister‘s rationale given, that may apply to subsection
(a) of the question. However, subsection (b) asks him directly: Will he engage with his counterpart, the Minister of Justice? He does not need to consult Robert McBride to answer that question.
It is flimsy. It is baseless. It is unfounded. He must please account. Please do your job! [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I note your strong view, hon member, and I proceed to ask the House for us to move to Question 256 ...
HON MEMBERS: No!
The SPEAKER: ... asked by the hon Hlengwa to the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, you are making a farce of oral questions - an absolute farce – and we will take this up in another forum. [Interjections.] We really will because it‘s a farce! What‘s the point of carrying on with oral questions if Ministers can come here and ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, I now ask you to co-operate by taking your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: No, no. Speaker, what is the point of us continuing ...
The SPEAKER: I asked you to sit down, hon Waters.
Mr M WATERS: ... if you allow Ministers to cherry-pick which questions they are going to answer? It‘s a disgrace!
The SPEAKER: Who is standing in for the Minister? Oh, the hon Mahlobo. [Interjections.]
Budget for maintenance of foreign missions
256. Mr M Hlengwa (IFP) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:
(1) What amount has her department budgeted for the maintenance of foreign missions in the 2016-17 financial year;
(2) whether she will consider reducing the number of foreign missions as a cost-cutting measure, if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2893E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (for The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Madam Speaker and to the hon members, on the question that has been asked, the Department of International Relations and Co- operation‘s maintenance budget for foreign missions abroad for the 2016-17 financial year, is broken down as follows: Firstly, foreign mission postings referred to as chanceries is R6 728 675 only.
Secondly, residence which is embassy posting official residence comes at R4 287 477 only. Foreign mission housing postings, Madam Speaker, which is staff accommodation, is R2 782 693.
On the second question, the department is undertaking an assessment of what cost-cutting measures may be implemented which will require a detailed analysis and an impact study on the implications for the bilateral relations and its global governance agenda. The department, however, is undertaking some serious assessment of what cost-cutting measures may be implemented. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza, mhlonishwa Somlomo. [Thank you, hon Chair.]
I will request that I get first of all, Speaker, the actual written answer because I have a serious issue with the actual figures that have been provided. Secondly, I want to ask the stand-in Minister that in light of national computing priorities that South Africa is faced with and our economic interests at home and abroad whether to have the second highest number of foreign missions after the United States, US, in the world; what purpose does that serve to have this global footprint instead of prioritising in terms of trade?
Now the assessment that is been done is in fact long overdue, but even its focus does not seek to address the problems that we face, we are wasting money on luxuries of foreign missions which actually serve no purpose and money
that is going abroad. So when is it going to arrive at a point where these foreign missions are dedicated to trade and to ensure that the national spinoffs are realised as opposed to these junkets and vacational foreign missions that are there? We have the second highest in the world without any reason; so I would like to find out what benefit is it that we have these missions when the tradeoffs are not there and we are not receiving anything that we need as a country? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (for The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Madam Speaker and I would like to thank the hon Hlengwa for the follow-up question. One of the most important issues is for the hon member to find time to familiarise himself firstly, with our foreign policy as a country, which clearly articulates what we seek to do in terms of promoting peace and friendship in the world including our own continent.
The view that seeks to suggest that in the foreign missions there are no matters of trade that are being discussed is further from the truth. In terms of the composition of the South African missions that is led by the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, we do have individuals that are posted in those missions by various
departments including the Department of Trade and Industry in our country, and the issues are being discussed.
The trade between South Africa and our continent has increased and there are opportunities that are being enjoyed by our business men and women that are doing a lot of work there. However, in terms of other issues around cost-implications, whether there has to be a review, the formal position of the department and government is that there is an assessment that is being done. But the work we do in the continent and in the world must never be understated. We must underscore, we are part of a global village and if South Africa has to grow it would grow in tandem with the growth of our continent and the globe as such. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker and hon Minister, what is very clear is that we spend a lot of money in our foreign missions in terms of leasing the premises, and I know that at some stage we were talking about purchasing these properties rather than leasing at an exorbitant rentals and costs. Can the hon Minister please tell us what the latest developments in that regard are? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (for The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Hon Madam
Speaker and thank you very much to the hon member for the question. We have indicated that there have been serious issues around the economic situation – the economic impact assessment that is going to be undertaken. We will look at it in terms of the implications of the bilateral relations whether the numbers of the embassies are sufficient or not? Whether they have to be reduced or whether we do have to share them like in certain instances, but also equally the money that is being used for operational reasons there – whether we actually lease or buy in those particular foreign missions? Let us be in a position to be able not to jump the gun and allow the economic assessment that is going to give us more impact.
Firstly, we will start with the coverage of our relations there, because that is the most important issue, thereafter look into the issue of the resources - whether buildings or warm bodies - that need to be put in place. And once the assessment and the study have been finished the nation will be taken into confidence. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon Speaker, hon acting Minister, this is a very serious issue and not a massage parlour question, so you must listen carefully, and I am not sure if you will have an answer for it. [Interjections.] The National Development Plan, NDP, and the National Treasury has made
strong recommendations to the department about rationalisation of the foreign missions; it is costing the taxpayers about R3,6 billion in this financial year and in view of the well-known challenges that are facing South Africa this is a fruitless and wasteful expenditure that frankly needs the cutting of costs. Now the question is: Why is your government defying the National Development Plan and the National Treasury when calling for rationalisation of foreign missions? I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (for The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Madam Speaker, what is most important is that when we are in Parliament we should have an opportunity to tell the facts. [Interjections.]
To come here and claim that the Department of International Relations and Co-operation has actually undermined the National Treasury and the National Development Plan ... We must reiterate that the ANC-led government is the one that brought the NDP and it is the one that also gave us the vision for the future of this country. As we speak, this National Development Plan was adopted here and, members, when we present our annual plans during the budget and policy statement, we should be able to tell the nation that
it was adopted by Parliament. This Parliament never cast aspersion to the department that your plan is outside the National Development Plan. We continue to implement the NDP.
Secondly, with the question of cost implications, we cannot be selective when we choose. A number of South African business people are earning billions of rands through self- involvement in trade relations facilitated by this government using our own embassies. [Applause.] Businesses in this country are thriving more than the time when there was apartheid; including the white monopoly capital which is the biggest beneficiary of our own missions outside this country. [Interjections.]
To suggest that this is irregular expenditure is an attempt to score cheap political points. [Interjections.] The reality with regard to the issue of rationalisation under the current economic conditions is that we are going to do an assessment and finally provide the results. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Speaker, reports that South Africa has the highest number of embassies abroad after the US are truly outrageous when one looks at our economic conditions. When our country, South Africa, has more embassies in
foreign countries and spends more money on them than even wealthier countries, it does not make sense. So, what I want to know from the Minister is the amount of money that South Africa spends on foreign embassies and how does that compare with the foreign investments that we get in return, because it would not make sense to spend money in other countries all the time when South Africa does not benefit. What is the comparison? Are we losing out, in giving more or are we getting more value for our money that we are spending abroad? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (for The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Madam Speaker and thank you to the hon Rev Meshoe. Firstly, we must correct the view that we have a number of embassies that do not have any value. South Africa at a particular point was a pariah state and not part of the international community. Thanks to the ANC, under the leadership of its former president, O R Tambo, that started to form these relations. We were able to join the communities of the world and become part of the global community ... [Applause.] ... so that we, too, can be able to advance humanity.
There are benefits that South Africans have received for the fact that we are part of the global community. We are maintaining those particular relations whether security -
keeping Africa safe - or making a contribution to Africa‘s development. You might sit in the House and not think there is a value, Africa appreciates; the world appreciates the role that South Africa plays. [Applause.]
When it comes to the economic development and trade relations, our trade relations are surpassing the times of apartheid. A number of developments and foreign direct investments have been made in our continent because of the men and women who are working in those embassies. For a number of people in our country, this contributes to job creation, foreign direct investment and a number of opportunities that unfortunately sometimes monopoly capital still enjoys. Thanks to a number of these missions. But in terms of financial prudence, wait for the economic assessment, the department will be in a position to come back. However, do not undermine the role that we are playing within the world community. Siyabonga, Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]
Challenges relating to impact of prevalence of illegal immigrants engaging in business or informal trading
247. Prof N M Khubisa (NFP) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
Whether his department has identified any challenges with regard to the impact of the prevalence of illegal immigrants who engage in business or any form of informal trading to sustain their livelihood; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) has he engaged his colleagues in the security cluster in order to attend to the challenges holistically and (b) what has been the outcome of the engagement? NO2763E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, a
multidisciplinary integrated national action plan was implemented by the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, Natjoints. The project is administered under Operation Fiela. In terms thereof, departments at national and local levels, including the Department of Health, Small Business Development, Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Labour, Sars, Metro Police and Emergency Services are involved in the key action of joint business inspections. The inspections are divided into three categories of informal businesses, formal businesses and premises in the hotel and hospitality industries.
The challenges identified included firstly, the health risks, as business premises were utilised for residential
purposes. The shelf life of the stock in some of the shops had expired as well. Secondly, the businesses pose an increase in the crime rate, as the illegal immigrants do not utilise the formal banking system and the irregular hours they keep make them more vulnerable to robberies.
Thirdly, in terms of economic competitiveness, the often lower prises at which the goods are sold in the shops of foreign nationals as opposed to local shopkeepers could lead to xenophobic attacks in the community.
The sanctions resulting from the joint operations comprised of, inter alia, arrest of undocumented foreign nationals for deportation purposes in terms of the Immigration Act 13 of 2002, the confiscation of goods not complying with the set standards and the issuance of compliance notices in terms of the municipal bylaws. Thank you.
Prof M N KHUBISA: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, we are mindful of the role that Africans, in particular, played in the liberation of our country, in the struggle. Of course, we understand that some of these people from other countries bring their much needed skills.
However, you have alluded to the steps that have been taken to ensure that we deal with the challenges involved. What is being done to ensure that those who are here legally do
not evade tax and those who are now employed and keep on selling their false documents ... Just recently, there was a case in the South Coast where one of them was selling documents. Of course, that one was apprehended. That said to us that there are so many of them. We have a plethora of them who are selling false documents. What is the department doing in that regard and what is the department doing about some of them who are taking money abroad, in stead of investing here to evade tax? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon speaker, there are several steps that we are taking as part of Operation Fiela to ensure that the businesses owned by foreign nationals comply with municipal bylaws and our small business regulations. We take these steps so that those who operate these businesses can be registered for tax purposes and so that they are also able to bank the proceeds from their businesses, especially those who operate proper businesses that are properly registered and who have the necessary documentation to operate these businesses.
Regarding those who are using these businesses as a front to commit crime, the multidisciplinary task team, under Operation Fiela, is also paying attention to that. As I indicated in my answer, there are several of them who have been arrested, as a result of this. We are continuing with
these processes. The department is very active through its countercorruption unit in investigating those who are involved in crime and corruption and in ensuring that they are apprehended.
Furthermore, the immigrants in South Africa bring a lot of positive benefits to our economy and our country. We should not paint all of them with the same brush because of the wrongful activities of a few. That in itself would result in a number of challenges we would experience in our society, amongst others, the challenges relating to xenophobia. Thank you.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Madam Speaker, Minister, as the EFF, we certainly do not support the narrow nationalism that seeks to demonise fellow Africans, while not questioning western criminals who come to plunder this country of her resources. We are for progressive Africanism, for Africa without colonial borders, for the integration of African markets and cultures, from Cape to Cairo.
On 2 September this year, your department released a list of countries whose citizens do not need to have a visa for an intended stay of 90 days or less. In that long list, you only have about four African countries. What is being done to ensure that African citizens who enter and reside in
this country are not treated as unwanted criminals, but as our brothers and sisters with a common history of colonial resistance? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, in terms of your first remark, I agree with the hon member completely. We must not subscribe to a narrow nationalism, which criminalises particularly, African immigrants in our country. On that point, we agree completely.
On the second point, there are steps taken in terms of the new international migration policy framework that is under discussion, to ensure that we make South Africa accessible, particularly to African nationals from all over the continent on a variety of bases. That would include offering African business people ten-year multiple entry visas, together with their families, offering African academics ten-year multiple entry visas. In terms of these two aspects, we have already promulgated those regulations. Those visas are already available to these categories of people.
We have also taken the view that foreign students studying in South African universities towards critical skills are now able to apply for permanent residency, soon upon completion of their studies. The main focus in that regard
is African students who are studying in South African universities.
We are undertaking programmes with the Kingdom of Lesotho and the Republic of Botswana to ensure that we streamline movement between our two countries, with a particular focus on Lesotho, given the unique and special relationship that exists between our two countries. We are further in discussions with the Republic of Zimbabwe about the various challenges between our two countries that we face, in relation to the movement of persons between the two countries on a short as well as long-term basis.
So, there are various initiatives that we are undertaking to free movement. Obviously, the freeing of movement and the opening up of South Africa to the nationalities of various countries, whether in Africa or abroad, cannot be the sole responsibility of South Africa. This must be undertaken on a neutral and bilateral as well as multilateral basis with the other countries. Other countries must understand the challenges and pressures that the South African economy, social services as well as others would face if South Africa were to take a unilateral basis to free movement to South Africa. Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: I rise on Rule 142(8), which says time for supplementary questions is two minutes. You allow the hon Minister to carry on for two minutes and 46 seconds. [Interjections.] No, you may laugh or find it funny, but the fact of the matter is you are giving 50% extra time and we also have Rules which are meant to be implemented fairly. [Interjections.] So, where you cut opposition members off or tell them their time for asking supplementary questions is over, you should do the same to Ministers. They also have to adhere to the Rules. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I wonder whether you do take into account the minutes I add to every hon member, including from opposition parties.
Mr M WATERS: We do look at the time. I can assure you, we check. It is Ministers that get more and more time.
The SPEAKER: I am just telling you that I add minutes to members of the opposition as well.
Mr M WATERS: All we ask is for Rules to be implemented fairly. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, allow me to start off by congratulating your department once again for a job well done. [Applause.] I was called about some youth in the Bluff in the Durban area who had to travel urgently to Swaziland and did not have the documentation because the child did not have an unabridged birth certificate.
However, after intervention by your director, your provincial management and the team in Durban, within three days, those kids were able to travel to Swaziland. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon Minister, what is clear is that it is not necessarily the countries that assisted us, but it is the citizens of the neighbouring states that assisted us in our struggle for freedom in this country. Can you please tell us if you, together with the Department of Health and other role players, have a process in place to ensure that illegal or legal immigrants from the neighbouring states in our country will enjoy the same benefits? I am saying this specifically because one individual from one of the neighbouring countries was not able to get dialysis treatment in this country because of the preference of our people first. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, our approach to the management of international migration is not based
narrowly on our gratitude to our fellow African countries, particular from our frontline states, for the role they played in supporting our struggle for freedom. It is also based on our understanding of the significant economic benefits that our country has and will have from the process of international migration, particularly, if we manage the process very well.
Our current framework is very limited and that is precisely the reason why we are moving towards a new international migration policy framework, which will focus one, on being afrocentric, two, on the whole of government approach where all of government, from the national to provincial and local tiers, will be involved in the management of this process, and three, on a whole of society approach.
So, there are various discussions that are taking place at the present moment with regard to other government departments. Whilst the Department of Home Affairs may not be particularly responsible for the policies which pertain to the management of foreign nationals by those departments, it is necessary that we have conversations and work together as different government departments, so that we align our policies in order to advance our policy. In that way, South Africa continues to reap the positive
benefits from the processes of international migration. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER: Then why did you destroy tourism?
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, as you know, illegal immigrants add greatly to the burden of our already constraint economy. We have a large number of our population already living in the most abject poverty. As you have mentioned, South Africa is seen as the economical hub of Africa. What pre-emptive steps are you taking in engaging with your colleagues and also engaging with your fellow neighbouring countries‘ leaders in helping to build a better Africa as a whole, so that we do not have the illegal immigration problem in the first place? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, I don‘t share the generalised view that undocumented immigrants are a burden to the South African society. We should not share that view because many of them, even if they are undocumented, still comply with our laws and add positively to the South African economy.
The critical challenge for the African countries is to deal with the historical burden of colonial borders and to regulate the movement of the nationals of our different
countries between our different countries, so that there is a proper and mainstreamed process of the movement of people, which is safe. That would obviously include each country taking responsibility to establish a population register to document its nationals for travel and ensure that the nationals of our various countries travel as regular travellers between our different countries.
To that end, the department has been very active in engaging with our neighbours. We have a programme that we are implementing with the Kingdom of Lesotho. This involves the Lesotho Special Permit and it involves ensuring that, in the near future, through sharing of the databases, we should be able to enable the people of Lesotho to travel between the two countries, without requiring their passports to be stamped, but relying on reading their passports and taking their fingerprints.
We have a programme that we are implementing and piloting with Botswana at Tshidilamolomo to ensure that the residents of that area, both on the South African and Botswana sides are able to travel as regular travellers without the burden of having to go to a border, which is
100 km away.
We have also been engaging with Zimbabwe, Kenya, Swaziland and various other countries to ensure that we regulate movement.
So, there are steps that we are taking to minimise irregular movement between our two countries and to encourage the nationals of our different countries to travel as regular travellers between the countries. Thank you.
Implementation of SA Defence Review
255. Mr D D Gamede (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
With reference to the implementation of the SA Defence Review, which forms an integral part of government‘s efforts towards constructing a developmental state that is capable of addressing national challenges, including economic growth, safety and security, skills development and more importantly the eradication of poverty, what (a) lessons have been learnt from the challenges during the implementation process of the Defence Review Implementation Plan and (b) mechanisms has she put in place to address these challenges?
NO2891E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Speaker,
thank you very much hon members, let me start by reminding hon members that in our Budget Vote of 2015, we indicated that year 2015 would be dedicated to planning for the Implementation of the Defence Review. During the course of that planning, a number of interventions were identified and implemented as quick wins that have already borne fruits. The following are some of the achievements recorded: One, expanding the capacity of the military academy as a basis to migrate to the defence academy, this includes the development of a new decree on cyber warfare; two, executing Project Thusano for the ambulance and transport fleet, repairing and maintenance to provide serviceability of operational vehicles and skills advancement of personnel; three, consolidation of the Defence Works Formation as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans‘ in-house capability to repair and maintain facilities; four, draft the cyber warfare strategy as part of a collective Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, JCPS, as a component of the National Cyber Policy Framework, which is ground breaking and is the first structured effort to brace against cyber on its slot; and five, developing an accelerated acquisition process that will be responsive to current operational commitments with the Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Armscor,
and the defence material division, working together to make this happen.
The initial phase of the Implementation of the Defence Review is referred to as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans‘ plan to arrest the decline and is work focus on creating a firm base to move into the future. This phase consists of interventions that are both cost driven and noncost driven as well as cost driven in nature. The approach to planning the Implementation of the Defence Review has had to take into account a number of complications: Firstly, the Defence Force has to continue executing ordered operational commitments whilst implementing fundamental changes to its day-to-day functioning; secondly, only the deliverables that can be achieved within the current funding baseline can be translated into annual performance plans; and thirdly, prioritising the cost driven interventions to ensure the best defence output and value proposition for South Africa
- this is further complicated by the fact that no additional funding for this purpose has been allocated yet. I thank you, hon member. [Applause.]
Mr D D GAMEDE: Speaker and Minister, thank you, the Department of Home Affairs is the lead department in the establishment of the Border Management Authority, BMA, how
will this authority reinforce the objectives of the Defence Review Implementation Plan? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you
very much, hon member. As you know, we operate as a cluster and therefore the Department of Defence and Military Veterans is part of the cluster, which deals with issues of the Border Management Authority. We have a responsibility for border control. And, of course, the Department of Home Affairs in the main focuses on issues of immigration into the country. So, yes, much as the Department of Home Affairs will be leading the Border Management Authority, all entities within the security cluster have a role to play to ensure that the Border Management Authority succeed in its work.
So, we are going to have a co-ordinated effort of ensuring that no undesirable elements enter the country illegally. Thank you.
Mr Z R XALISA: Speaker, I will ask this question on behalf of hon Mente. The Defence Review outlines five key milestones that South Africa must embark upon to rejuvenate the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, and establish commensurate capabilities. Planning Milestone 1 aims to arrest the decline in the military‘s critical capabilities
through immediate directed interventions. Planning Milestone 2 aims to rebalance and reorganise the SANDF as the foundation of the future growth. Planning Milestone 3 seeks to create a sustainable defence force that can meet current order defence commitments. Planning Milestone 4 covers the enhancement of the defence force capacity to respond to the nascent challenges in the strategic environment and Planning Milestone 5 aims to defend South Africa against an imminent or dire threat. All these require more money as we already must be reducing spending on the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. How are you planning to ensure that the recommendation of the Defence Review gets implemented without additional funding?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you
very much, hon Speaker. Hon member, we are all aware that government faces significant and competing requirements. This, of course, puts enormous pressure on the fiscus and consequently leads to a constrained funding ceiling to the Defence and Military Veterans. That has not allowed for the Implementation of the Defence Review for now.
As part of closing the funding gap, the department is critically looking into areas that may assist in reducing its cost baseline. To this end, for instance, it is focussed on improving budget efficiency and effectiveness
in all areas. These measures have been identified and had been included in the Department of Defence and Military Veterans‘s plan to arrest the decline.
In addition, the department is looking at alternative sources of funding and the possible leveraging of certain assets and revenue streams to augment the Defence and Military Veterans allocation. If I may cite, hon member, one of the critical areas we are looking into is that we have conducted an audit of assets belonging to the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. We are looking at sweating those assets and see what it is that we can get out of leasing these assets so that whatever money comes in goes into the national fiscus. I will not say the money will go to the Department of Defence and Military Veterans because obviously, the strain is on the entire national fiscus. So, whatever we benefit out of sweating of the assets of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans, we then make whatever additions to the national fiscus. So, it will assist the entire government when we do that.
We are also trying obviously very hard to ensure that we keep the relationship very close between the Department of Defence and Military Veterans and the National Treasury. It is always important that National Treasury understands and appreciates that which is being done by the SA National
Defence Force. To this end, for instance, we have established what is called a budget task team which consists of both departments. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Speaker, hon Minister I understand that there are benefits that those who are in Defence and Military Veterans get ... but I would love to know whether are there any benefits for our youth who happened to be out of the system because of ailments, sickness and for instance in terms of education and other benefits. What is it that the department does to ensure that they continue to live after those compatriots have offered a lot to the National Defence Force? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you
very much Dr Khubisa and hon members, my sense is that you are now raising issues relevant to the military veterans. I don‘t get a sense that ... [Interjections.]
Prof N M KHUBISA: Yes, Minister, I am referring to military veterans plus there could be some of our youth who had been in Defence and Military Veterans but had to be out because they are either sick or they face some other problems.
The SPEAKER: Angikunikanga ke leyo mvume mhlonishwa Khubisa. Qhubeka Ngqongqoshe. [I did not give you that permission, hon Khubisa. Proceed Minister.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Khubisa,
whether you leave the Defence Force because you are physically unfit or for whatever reasons, what‘s important is that once you have served in the SA National Defence Force and come out off the system, it makes you a military veteran. Therefore, you do not belong to the Department of Defence and Military Veterans; you need to go into the database of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans and then, of course, register and get benefits – whatever benefits are acquired or rolled out to all military veterans. So, I hope that maybe next time would then have a longer discussion on the matter. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Hon Speaker, I just wanted to ask the Minister and I appreciate the fact that this year has been declared the year of planning around the issue of the Defence Review. However, I do want to ask the Minister why is she not immediately implementing a phased-in approach of the Defence Review? Our existing equipment is becoming obsolete and large-scale replacement thereof being way beyond our existing budget and availability of funds for that purpose. The matter cannot be postponed any longer, as
far as I am concerned, given the fact that there is a glaring decline of our military capabilities. I believe that a phased-in Implementation of the Defence Review must begin in earnest, hon Minister. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Speaker,
hon Mncwango ...
... awulalelanga. [... you did not listen.]
I said 2015 was dedicated to planning. We are now in 2016, not only are we in 2016, we have actually started a process of implementing the Defence Review. How are we implementing the Defence Review? We have used those areas which do not require cost measures. For instance, we have what is called Operation Thusano – Operation Thusano is a project between ourselves and the Cuban government which focuses on maintenance and repairs of all vehicles belonging to the Defence Force.
For a long time we‘ve had vehicles which have been parked, dilapidated and declared obsolete. As I am talking now if you check with those who serve in the committee, they will tell you that they have been on site and have seen the work which we are doing over Operation Thusano. So, Operation Thusano is phase 1 which is arresting the decline of the
capabilities of the Defence Force by repair and maintenance of vehicles and equipments. Thank you.
Violent protest action on higher education campuses
259. Prof B Bozzoli (DA) asked the Minister of State Security:
Whether the Government has established which persons, organisations and/or parties are responsible for the promotion of violent protest action on the country‘s higher education campuses; if not, when will the Government establish who the responsible persons are; if so, (a) which persons are responsible and (b) how are the specified persons being funded? NO2896E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. On the Question asked by the member, our response is yes. Government through its law enforcement agencies of the Security Cluster knows the context and the actors involved. Government has positioned education as one of its apex priorities, and the issues raised by students are genuine and deserve all of our support.
However, just like any other right, in the right to protest there are obligations and it is not unfettered. You will
find the limitation clauses in the Constitution. We therefore must condemn the violence and wanton destruction of property that we have witnessed, including the loss of life, as it is setting back the country and impacting negatively on our planning trajectory, and will be felt by many generations to come.
An HON MEMBER: Give us the names.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: The genuine struggles of students have been hijacked by certain nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, which come under the guise of humanitarian support while they are wolves in sheep‘s skin.
In addition, political parties have become opportunists and use this noble struggle for their narrow political agenda. Students have been offered various forms of humanitarian support in the form of funds, refreshments, logistical and legal assistance, amongst other things, thereby exploiting genuine struggles, as was confirmed by the SA Union of Students, Saus, leadership and student representative councils, SRCs, when we met at the airport with the Minister of Higher Education and the Minister of Police.
They called on us to be in a position to warn them of such individuals.
The security services of this country have stabilised the situation at the institutions of higher learning, working through the interministerial committee, IMC, which the President has established. Lectures were completed and as we speak exams are currently underway at some institutions. The criminal justice system is also processing those students who were arrested, including those who are not students.
Education is a societal matter. Whatever difficulty and challenges we confront as a nation, we must know that these challenges we face are not insurmountable. On matters of national interest like education we must be able to mature up as political parties and not make the education of our people a football to play around with. As the Freedom Charter taught us, we must be in a position to sit down and resolve our challenges through peaceful negotiations. That is what we are known for in the world.
Mr I M OLLIS: So, no answer basically.
Prof B BOZZOLI: Chair, before I ask my follow up Question, I would just like to point out that the Minister did not answer my Question which was as follows. Which persons are responsible? It‘s no use just saying NGOs and political
parties. That‘s not an answer. Can you please ask the Minister to answer before I ask my follow up?
The SPEAKER: Hon Bozzoli, can you please ask your follow up Question? Then it will be a plus when the Minister also clarifies whatever you were not satisfied with.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 92. A member normally asks a follow up supplementary Question based on the reply from a Minister. Now the Question, as hon Bozzoli has quite rightfully highlighted, asks for specific names – who is responsible. The Minister has not told us who is responsible and yet he is supposed to be the Minister of State Security. I mean, does the Minister and State Security actually know who is responsible? That‘s the question that one should be asking. It seems not.
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, it is not the job of the Chair to make Ministers utter particular words in their answers. In fact, I am asking hon Bozzoli whether she wants to use the opportunity to ask a follow up Question. If not, I will pass on to the next person. [Interjections.]
Prof B BOZZOLI: Chair, I do want to ask a follow up Question but I would like the Minister to answer the Question I asked in the first place.
The SPEAKER: Hon Bozzoli, I am not going to dwell on this matter. I am giving you an opportunity to ask a follow up Question yet again.
Prof B BOZZOLI: Alright, thank you Chair for not assisting me. Minister, in your many meetings at your home which were revealed to have taken place in last week‘s Mail & Guardian with Mr Mcebo Dlamini, one of the most militant leaders of the Fees Must Fall movement and who now faces charges of public violence, theft, malicious damage to property and assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm, did you ever discuss any aspects of the student revolt with him and did you provide him with guidance as to how to calm the situation rather than to inflame it?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Firstly, the member mentions, as fact, a newspaper article without actually putting facts to the nation. [Interjections.] One, my answer is that the meeting never took place. Mcebo Dlamini has not been in my house and I am not his spokesperson.
Secondly, it‘s very interesting that some members of certain parties here were drawing joy in some of the challenges that students were facing. [Interjections.] Why would a self-respecting Member of Parliament, when there is destruction of property and there is disruption of academic activities, feel so sad that Mcebo was actually able to contain the strike, which is also not factual? What are we dealing with here? [Interjections.] Are we dealing with people who actually want to disrupt a matter called education that is so central in the development of a nation? South Africans have an opportunity ... [Interjections.]
Prof B BOZZOLI: Madam Speaker? Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hon Bozzoli, please allow the Minister who is on the floor to finish.
Prof B BOZZOLI: No, no, no, no, Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Bozzoli, will you allow ... Hon Bozzoli, please take your seat and allow the Minister to finish.
Prof B BOZZOLI: The Minister is suggesting that I am a liar and that I support violence.
The SPEAKER: Hon Bozzoli, I have not given you the floor. Please finish up Minister.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I‘m saying to South Africans that there are those amongst us whose agenda is not to promote the development of our nation. The student struggle remains a genuine issue. There are challenges in education and we must attend to them.
The ANC government has done a lot but for a member to suggest that violence and the destruction of property that is so barbaric, and is taking a nation backwards ... A member feels so sad. We must be able to look in shame. [Interjections.]
Prof B BOZZOLI: Point of order, Chair. How can the Minister say that? I have never said anything about violence.
The SPEAKER: That‘s not a point of order. Please take your seat, hon member. Hon Hlengwa? [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would want to echo the sentiment that none of us of course agree with the destruction and violence which has taken place, but a pattern is emerging. The same thing happened in
Vuwani — one school, two schools, three schools. Then the protests became inflamed from one campus to another.
The Question is as follows. Are the Department of State Security and the intelligence services equal to the task of actually taking proactive steps to prevent these things before they happen? Every time they come in to dampen the situation — calm the situation. I put it to the Minister that prevention is better than cure. Does this department have the capacity and the capability to deal with these things? This damage that has taken place is at a huge cost to the state‘s budget. Already it is costing approximately R170 million to repair the schools in Vuwani. So this emerging pattern needs to end. Where were the intelligence services to curb these things before they actually even began?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I‘m happy that hon Hlengwa says we agree that the issue of education ... to destroy property is wrong because if there are those amongst us ... the manner they conduct and say certain things just to score political points, we must expose who they are.
However, with regard to the Question you have asked, it‘s very important for members to understand how intelligence
works. Madam Speaker, through you to the hon member, when you gather intelligence, what happens is that the information gets to be disseminated to the relevant authorities. Most of the time people normally want to say we have securitised the country. Before these issues become security matters they are matters that should have been attended to at a local level either by relevant authorities
... Then they flare up.
The challenges of Vuwani ... It was an unfortunate situation. It does not mean that there was no intelligence. Intelligence was provided to the government of Limpopo.
They were able to do whatever they could in terms of doing those things.
What is most important, rather than pointing fingers at those who are trying to work hard ... you must be able to commend them. Where we have weaknesses, the weaknesses must be pointed out.
When the situation happened in Vuwani it was us in the Security Cluster that worked tirelessly. We brought the situation under control, including the perpetrators who also came under control.
As South Africans, one issue that we must never run away from is the situation of safeguarding our country and the security of our country, which is everybody‘s responsibility. We cannot continue to be a nation that actually benefits in terms of pointing fingers when you know who the criminals are. We are giving them refuge. If we had never intervened in the situation in Vuwani it could have been bad.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Minister, you can go to town explaining your weaknesses but the reality is that we neither have an intelligence nor any protection as a country. The Fees Must Fall movement is going to be with us for a long time and the reason for the Fees Must Fall movement is because your government has consistently delivered inequality to our people, and as result they are responding.
Here is a Question. In Stellenbosch and in Witwatersrand, Wits, your crime intelligence and your ... whoever the intelligence ... they were seen among the students and it is alleged that some of them were the ones who were actually provoking the students.
The Question is as follows. Instead of peacekeeping and protest managing or training the police better, why at the height of a crisis do you bring your intelligence
operatives among the protestors? What is their role when they are with the protestors?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker and thanks to Mbatha ... [Interjections.] ... hon Mbatha. It‘s very interesting that we have some leaders within our own country whose actions and expressions don‘t actually seek to build the country we envisioned in 1955.
An HON MEMBER: You mean like yourself?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Firstly, Members of Parliament like hon Mbatha will need to find the time to understand how government works. If hon Mbatha had checked how this state is, he would have understood that crime intelligence as a function of the state falls within the Ministry of Police. Therefore his Question is misplaced.
Secondly, with regard to the presence of intelligence services, we are being made to respond to allegations here without substantiating them and by trying to cast aspersions on other institutions or individuals. It is not written on intelligence officers‘ foreheads that this is an intelligence officer ... this is a terrorist. If you can have this kind of leadership ... where instead of ... actually, if people have committed crimes. If intelligence
officers were there they are within the country in terms of their own mandate. However, if intelligence officers are breaking the law this democratic dispensation has created a recourse mechanism. You would have reported to the Ministry concerned. There is a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. More important is to conclude the process of the inspector-general so that if there are any abuses those abuses can be responded to.
Unfortunately, this hon member cannot be assisted by me responding to issues ... of allegations, but also more importantly, a misplaced Question where you don‘t understand the difference between the police and state security. [Applause.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Minister, I can‘t help when looking at you I see a rhino being hacked to death ... [Laughter.] ... while you are hugging syndicates. Hon Minister, don‘t you think that you are a threat to security or a liability? If you still have any moral compass, won‘t you take special leave while you are cleared?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, it will be very important for a member, even
if you are a politician, just to have a sense of the ability to analyse.
I have issued a statement. There they make allegations without a shred of evidence. Instead of a member being consistent ... I‘m the same person who went to open a case, which is unheard of. The member also has to understand what kind of nation you want. There are a number of individuals. Actually, I have not even been charged. I‘m not actually a suspect. However, more importantly, without actually allowing that to go through those processes ... Yesterday you were saying something else. You even have certain people here who are members of the House who at certain instances have to appear in front of our justice system.
You don‘t actually ... because of cheapness and of politics
... [Interjections.] ... we are not actually referring to those individuals.
I am not above the law. I am going to subject myself to the issues that are being raised so that this thing of trying to scandalise people and tarnish their image is not going to succeed.
I always believe that lies have short legs; they have short legs. Very soon whatever is happening is going to come out. However, more importantly, without this issue of running to
open cases everyday, there is a case number in Nelspruit. Follow the matter and if you think you have evidence please don‘t be an accomplice. Assist the police, bring the evidence and we bring this matter to finality. If I am wrong the law enforcement agencies are going to demonstrate. However, with due respect, I am not going to resign. I‘ve never been found guilty. We have not even brought an allegation against me. I wish you the best. [Applause.]
Capacity of office of the Inspecting Judge for the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation
250. Mr F Beukman (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether the Office of the Inspecting Judge for the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation has the necessary capacity and staff to process complaints with regard to the conduct of members of the SA Police Service; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2884E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Speaker, the Office of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, Judge has an approved structure and staff establishment to
carryout its work, all positions in the structure have been filled and there are no vacancies at this stage.
The office of the judge also has a dedicated budget that is placed within the Civilian Secretariat for Police. The Civilian Secretariat and the Office of the DPCI Judge have embarked on an extensive marketing campaign in the last financial year and this current financial year which has seen an increase in the volume of complaints lodged with the Office of the DPCI Judge.
I have been reliably informed that these developments have triggered the need for a review of the structure and staff compliment of the Office of the DPCI Judge which is currently underway. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Mr F BEUKMAN: Hon Speaker, thank you to the hon Minister for the response. The DPCI is the only institution in South Africa with a mandate to investigate organised crime between levels three and five. It is important that the DPCI must execute its duties without fear, favour or prejudice. The Glenister judgement in the Constitutional Court highlighted a need for an effective and independent crime investigating unit.
The South African Police Service Amendment Act makes provision for the Office of the DPCI Judge who is in power to investigate complaints from citizens with regard to the conduct of DPCI members. Hon Minister, what further steps could be taken to promote the mandate and visibility of the Office of the DPCI Judge amongst the citizenry? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: There are essentially two things that we could all do: The first one is the work that has already been undertaken and that is the question of institutional capability promoting the development of that office as an institution in a fully flash kind of manner. That is the work we are currently looking at.
The second aspect is the question of the extent to which the work of the DPCI Judge is taken and driven out at a public level so that anyone of us as ordinary members of the South African citizenry who have an issue and or issues relating to the work of DPCI, we are able to know where to go to and report and take up issues at that particular level. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Speaker, to the Minister, there will be no hope of deterring misconduct or ensuring accountability, either for interference in the investigations of the Hawks or for the abuse of their powers while the Office of the
DPCI Judge is as severely under resourced and under staffed as it is.
Currently, the office has only two investigators – two for the entire country – that is likely the reason why it has received zero complaints from Hawks members because they do not trust it to do its job effectively. To add in salt to injury, the Office of the DPCI Judge had some of its funds poached by the Civilian Secretariat under the rationale of implementing cost-cutting and saving measures after your disastrous imposition, Minister, of the ?We are One Humanity Anti-Xenophobia‘ campaign on the secretariat which derailed its business plan and diverted a huge chunk of its budget.
This, by the way, was a contravention of the law because the budget ring fenced for the DPCI Judge is meant: ?... for the specific and exclusive use of the official duties of the retired judge and may not be used for any other purpose.? Breaking the law once again, we see. My question to the Minister is: Why have you been strangling and disabling the Office of the DPCI Judge?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Speaker, I wouldn‘t really know as to where that particular accusation emanates from precisely because what we have provided here and now is a
factual account of what is currently happening in terms of developing that particular institution. With regards to the question of capacity: We have never stood out in public and said that the Office of the DPCI Judge is fully capacitated and so on. We have said, amongst other things, capacitating an institution such as that is work in progress. And it should not be forgotten that the DPCI Judge, as an institution, is a new development.
We have never come across a situation where anywhere in the world you will have an institution which would have been established for instance 48 months ago or even three or five years ago and have it fully capacitated.
The question of how an institution such as that has to grow is an ongoing question. That is basically that. I do not know where you get it from but Hawks members do not report to the DPCI Judge. The DPCI Judge is largely an oversight structure that functions out there and which is expected to assist members of the public in processing complaints and grievances they could be having in relation to the work of DPCI.
There is no truth in funds having been poached. The location of the DPCI Judge within the Civilian Secretariat is much more of an administrative sort of measure as part
of the institution itself developing to capacitation of sorts in the near future. There is no question of funds having been poached and I do not know where that essentially comes from. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
Mr Z N MBHELE: Speaker, on a point of order, on your left.
The SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
Mr Z N MBHELE: My point of order, Speaker, is: I would like to refer the Minister to section 17(c)(l) subsection 4, I think, of the South African Police Service Act, he will see exactly where the poaching comes from.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order; it is now a further supplementary question or engagement with the Minister which has not been given any permission. I now move to hon Mokause.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hos Speaker, to the hon Minister, there is a growing trend within your party, the ANC, to use the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, also known as the Hawks, to fight political factional battles. We saw horrible scenes at SA Revenue Service, Sars, offices last month when a member of the Hawks held a Sars official
hostage and harassed him. What have you done to ensure that this situation does not happen again? How far is the investigation regarding the matter if there is any investigation?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Speaker, I think we are also on public record, having dealt with this issue of the so called political factional battles. We essentially do not know as to how such kind of an allegation could arise. Of course you wouldn‘t control people‘s emotions and theoretical frames in terms of how they want to think and perceive particular situations. We are not in control of such situations but it is also factually incorrect to even begin to suggest that there is some degree of political meddling and it is being use for political ends and so on.
I suspect that the second part of the follow-up question is largely a new question, and if I am being requested that at some point or another I must write a field report in terms of what transpired as per this particular allegation, I am gladly available to do so. But essentially it is a different question altogether. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Speaker, I just wanted to ask the Minister whether the office of the inspecting judge is confident
that its capacity for investigation extends to our outer most rural areas in respect of complaints against Saps members because where we have been in terms of our oversight we have discovered that there are already backlogs in this regard. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Speaker, indeed the question of capacity is an ongoing challenge. The question on the extent and to which degree we will certainly satisfy the rural constituencies in so far as this issue is concerned depends largely on the work that I have referred to earlier on and that is the question of the capacity that we are building on an ongoing basis to be able to deal with these particular challenges as you allude to. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Successes and lessons learned from pilot project on issuing of smart ID cards
251. Ms T E Kenye (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) What are the relevant details of the successes and lessons from the pilot project on the issuing of smart ID cards that was launched by his department in conjunction with First National Bank and Standard
Bank and (b) what does he envisage for the future of the specified project? NO2885E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, there is a growing interest by members of the public to apply for their enabling documents through the banks. There has been notable quality of service and professionalism displayed by both banks and government. This pilot project has contributed to the improved methods of combating fraud and corruption. It has further enhanced the image of the Department of Home Affairs as it leads to quick turnaround times in processing applications for both smart card ID and Passports.
This partnership with selected banks has allowed clients to lodge applications at their own leisure in the comfort of their homes. It has also provided a solution to long queues that were synonymous with Home Affairs offices in the past. There has been an improved efficiency in service delivery as a result of this partnership. The Department of Home Affairs has served as a catalyst in e-government services within the public sector as evidenced by awards it has won in this regard.
Currently, the pilot is limited to Gauteng and Western Cape provinces. However, the department has been in constant
engagement with the Banking Association of South Africa, Basa, and individual major banks where a clear objective of rolling out to additional branches is being pursued so that the footprint of Home Affairs services being offered at the banks can be extended to other remaining provinces, and thus reaching the larger part of our population. Thank you very much.
Ms T E KENYE: Speaker, firstly, the department must be commended on this initiative, which has further enhanced the quality of service delivery to our people; Secondly, what key lessons have come out of the pilot in Gauteng and Western Cape, which will enrich the roll-out through the remaining provinces? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, one of the lessons that we have learned relate to ensuring at all times the reliability of the network supply so that our offices are operating on a 24/7 basis to be able to service our clients. But secondly, we have been able through this that once we roll it out to other provinces, we will drastically increase the numbers of people who convert their green bar-coded ID into the smart card ID so that we can speed up the process of the conversion of the green
bar-coded document to reduce the levels of crime, the risks to the financial insurance, and other industries, including
the public sector of people who possess documents which should not be in their possession.
It is in our very great interest that this process should be speeded up so that we are able to ensure that we verify the identities of all the people who possess the green bar- coded document, and covert those into smart card IDs to clean up the national population register and ensure that the people who are in possession of South African identity documents are people who deserve to be. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I see that hon Malema‘s name is in the system, but I know that he is not here.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Yes, Speaker, it‘s me.
The SPEAKER: Okay.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Minister, while innovation is commended, it is a fact that it is mostly people in rural areas that have difficulties with accessing Home Affairs service, but your initiative to partner with banks to issues smart card IDs when one look at the branches selected such as ABSA in Centurion, FNB in Sandton, Nedbank in Morningside, it is clear that government is only concerned with access services for white and rich people only and they do not
have to deal with the incompetence and corruption of Home Affairs. Which other initiative in your department Minister are you implementing to ensure that people in Thohoyandou, people in Nongoma, people in rural areas have access in Home Affairs services? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon speaker, the hon member makes a very wild allegation based on a pilot. As we indicated when we announced these 12 branches, we said very clearly that these were pilots to enable us to study how the process is going to be rolled-out. We have not yet even announced how we will roll the process out in all the other provinces and therefore, which other branches of the banks in rural areas are going to have access to the same facility so that we reach out to people in rural areas.
Secondly, the department is in the process of rolling out the conversion of our offices to large capture offices around the country. We are undertaking the process on a gradual basis given the availability of resources and the volume of work required in the conversion of the offices. At the same time, we are expanding the footprint of the department, not only beyond the four existing banks, because there are other two banks which have requested to join the process. But we are also discussing with the Department of Public Works, the roll-out of Home Affairs
offices in the rural areas by establishing the physical infrastructure in the areas where we don‘t exist.
Therefore, it doesn‘t make anybody look any smarter to make allegations which are both unfounded and untrue. Thank you.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Order, Chair.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Ms H O HLOPHE: I am rising on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Ms H O HLOPHE: I think what the Minister is saying on the latest statement is uncalled for, because the truth of the matter is that the rural people are not catered for. You are prioritising white and rich people.
The SPEAKER: Hon Hlophe!
Ms H O HLOPHE: So, don‘t come and attack me.
The SPEAKER: That‘s not a point of order.
Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Minister, overall as far as the smart card IDs are concerned, and the roll-out of the programme, we must recognise that it has been largely a success. You can apply for a card on a Monday, and you can receive it by Thursday. We must recognise that, that‘s a great initiative.
But nonetheless, there are still remains of some massive problems that exist. Two of which are: Firstly, is the issue of long the queues. You referred to it, but I am afraid those queues are still there. In a number of our offices there are still massive long queues. Many people have to leave work in order to go and apply for these ID‘s. They get to the end of the queue only to discover then that what compounds the problem is network instability - the problems that the department is still grappling to deal with.
Now, I understand that you are engaging with State Information Technology Agency, Sita, to try and resolve it, but the problem still exists and it has been there for a number of years. How long is it going to take for this thing to be sorted out and finalised once and for all so that there is faster turnaround and better quality of service delivery to our people? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, indeed, we are quite concerned and we have raised our concern as well as the department with regard to the instability of the network we are supplied by Sita. We have had engagements with them. Even this morning, I had a discussion with the Minister, and we think that for us to be able to access a more reliable network, the solution may in actual fact lie outside Sita as we are saying we need a 24/7 network supply that‘s going to be available at all our offices. We do run the risk of that instability in the network even with the banks once we do announce the roll- out, because we will be depending on our system, which will make it difficult for people even at the banks to access the services.
Now, we are undertaking majors as quickly as possible to ensure that we fix these problems. As I say, considering the solutions outside the available solutions that we have been trying to resolve until now, but we think that the availability of the banks and the roll-out of the online service is going to assist us a great deal in expanding the footprint and providing people with alternative solutions other than going to queue up at our offices. Thank you.
Mnu K P SITHOLE: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, kunesimo la esikhona sokuthi eMnyangweni wezaseKhaya kutholakala
ukuthi abantu banabo omazisi kodwa iminyatheliso yeminwe yabo ayiveli. Manje ngizama ukubheka ukuthi kulesi simo esisha uzokuvikela kanjani njengoba iminyatheliso yeminwe ingaveli kulama pasi akhona manje, uma sekusemabhange akuzoba khona yini indlela ezobangela ukuthi kube nesimo esifana nalesi esikhona njengamanje?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Sihlalo, sinazo izinhlelo zokwenza isiqinisekiso sokuthi abantu labo izithupha neminwe yabo okungaveli ohlwini esilisebenzisayo njengamanje sikwazi ukuzithola enhloko-hhovisi ukuze sizokwazi ukuqhubeka nohlelo lokubalekelela ukuthi bafake izicelo zikamazisi wekhadi. Kunalolu hlelo lwe-Home Affairs National Identification System i-Hanis lapho sathatha khona zonke izithupha zabantu ezazikade ziginqiwe sazifaka ohlwini lwethu lwezobuchwepheshe. Ngaleyo ndlela kunokwenzeka ukuthi abanye abantu izithupha zabo zazingazange zithatheke kahle ngenkathi senza lolu hlelo, osekuwukuthi manje uma befika kutholakale ukuthi kunenselelo enjengaleyo sibheke enhloko-hhovisi uma izithupha zingatholakali bese sibathatha izithupha kabusha. Into enhle kulokhu ukuthi siyithatha sisebenzisa lolu hlelo lobuchwepheshe olwenza ukuthi izithupha zomuntu zisheshe zingene kunqubo lena esiyisebenzisayo kungabe kusaba ukuthi mhlawumbe kwalahleka amaphepha ayekade ethwele izithupha zomuntu. Lokho-ke kuyaselekelela kakhulu.
Sicabanga ukuthi lapho esike saba nezingqinamba ezinjengalezi khona sikwazile ukuthi sizixazulule, abasebenzi bomnyango wethu baqeqesheke kahle ukuthi bakwazi ukuzixazulula lezo zinkinga uma bebhekana nazo ukuze sibalekelele abantu abazofaka izicelo zabo. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr K P SITHOLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, there is a situation at the Department of Home Affairs where you find that people do have identity documents but their fingerprints do not show on the system. I am trying to establish how the department is going to prevent this, since with current identity cards, the fingerprints do not appear. Are they not going to have the same experience when they go to the banks?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, we have a system in place to ensure that we can get the fingerprints from the head office in respect of those people whose fingerprints do not appear on the system, so that we can proceed with the programme of assisting them to apply for their identity cards. There is an IT system called the Home Affairs National Identification System, Hanis, which enables cross-referencing of fingerprints and identification information which we use to capture all the fingerprints and to store them in our system. It might be
that some of those fingerprints were not properly captured when we were using this programme, which is why when we experience these challenges now we consult the head office so that they can take fingerprints if there are none. What is good about this is that we take the fingerprints using this technology, which makes it easier for them to be captured and we will no longer have a problem of misplacing the fingerprint documents. That is really helping us.
Where we have had such challenges we were able to resolve them; the department‘s employees are prepared to resolve those challenges should they come across them so that we can help our people with their applications. Thank you.]
Armscor tender to lease VVIP-configured intercontinental aircraft for transportation of senior government officials
269. Mr S J F Marais (DA) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
Whether, with reference to her replies to questions 1280 on 24 May 2016, 1687 on 13 October 2016 and
1709 on 12 September 2016, the Armaments Corporation of South Africa will issue another tender to lease a VVIP- configured inter-continental aircraft for the transportation of senior Government officials,
following the cancellation of the previous tender; if not; (a) what is the total number of aircraft that the SA National Defence Force is currently using to transport senior Government officials and (b) what are the costs of running the specified aircraft; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2906E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair,
and hon members, on this matter as you would know we have three steps to follow: The first one being the request for information; the second one, the request for offer; and the third one, the request for proposals. At the second stage when we made the request for offer, unfortunately we had to cancel the process because the bids which were received did not meet the critical user requirement criteria. The decision for a lease was initially regarded as a short-term solution; however, the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, requirement for an additional long-range aircraft still remains. And it is in this regard that the Council on Defence has taken a decision that a process of a full acquisition should proceed.
Coming to the SANDF, which is the second part of the question raised by hon Maraise, we do have four aircrafts at our VVIP Squadron, namely the BBJ, which is known as Inkwazi, Falcon 900 which is used by the Deputy President,
and then we have two Falcon 50s which are both inserviceable. The reports on the total operational costs so far is not yet available but I should say that for each of this aircrafts the cost per tasking is as follows: Number one, for Inkwazi, BBJ, the cost is R84 000 per hour; for Falcon 900 the cost is R54 000 per hour; and for Falcon
50 is R54 000 per hour.
But I should also add that this aircrafts are not just used to ferry the principals but they also offer an opportunity to those who are training as pilots to acquire more awards in order to earn their stripes.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Chair and the Minister, during our oversight visit it was reported, at 28 Squadron there was only one C 130 which was over 60 years old and 0 Dakotas which is over 80 years old at 35 Squadron operational. That means only one or basically 0 long-haul aircraft capability. Defence logistics reported that the cost of chartering flights for the Defence Force cargo and trooped transport is draining all the financial resources because the Air Force do not have the airlift capability and their own aircraft to provide the service.
The Arms Corporation, Armscor, confirmed that no budget is available to procure or buy any aircraft but they have got
a R100 million available to lease aircraft. General Msimang reported that Inkwazi is safe, reliable and is in serviceable condition, and is being used for pilot training and to fly senior airfare officers around the country. Now Minister, in light of the previous answers, can you confirm whether Gen Msimang lied to the portfolio committee during our visit, and if not whether you accept the fact that Inkwazi is in safe and serviceable condition? And then also why the President is still refusing to use Inkwazi especially in light of financial constrains and the reprioritisation of expenses by your department? And then thirdly, can you confirm that this R100 million, in light of all this financial constraints, will not be used for another long-haul intercontinental aircraft but rather for other essential SANDF equipment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Marais,
you have mixed two questions, that is, Question 268 and Question 269 because now you are making reference to C 130. That is where you are raising issues, for instance, about the transportation of cargo and troops. This is where we use the C 130. I thought you were still dealing with the issue of the VVIP aircrafts.
Nonetheless, I should say, yes, we still have an obligation as the Defence Force and as the people who have a mandate
of transporting our principals, to buy an aircraft. Now it is always easy for officials at times to say, yes, the aircraft is serviceable or not serviceable. And at times it takes time to even understand what it means to be inserviceable. At least it has taken me years to understand that.
But all I can tell you is that, as the Minister of Defence and as officials who serve in the Defence Force, whenever it is time for the principal to travel to whatever destination you have sleepless nights because you are not sure whether the aircraft will reach its destination or that something may happen along the way as it happened before.
May I also remind you, hon members that on several occasions the media has reported incidents which have occurred, for instance, as the President was travelling. I can cite for instance one trip where the aircraft could not bring back the principal because there were fuel fumes inside the aircraft.
There have been many other incidents where onetime in another country within the continent, when the President was supposed to take off, the aircraft could not take off. I mean we can count many. We can actually bring a list to
you as to on how many occasions have we had this kind of experience. But our major responsibility, amongst others, is to ensure the safety of our principals. And by principals I mean all principals, both the President and the Deputy President.
Now Gen Msimang tells you that the BBJ is serviceable. There have been occasions where they have said the BBJ is readily available and it is serviceable – I will cite, for instance the last occasion when the President was travelling to Kenya. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: And when we
arrive at the airport; there was everything wrong with the aircraft and the aircraft could not take off. That is the truth of the matter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Why it is
happening? I do not know.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before the next supplementary question is asked I just want to remind members of Rule 142(7) whereby you are expected to ask not more than one supplementary question.
Mr B T BONGO: Chairperson and the hon Minister, thank you for the comprehensive answer. Hon Minister, there has been a narrative which in the main was pushed by the opposition parties that it was unnecessary to purchase the VVIP jet. I take that narrative as propaganda. So, I am requesting you today to share with the people of South Africa on what are the challenges faced by these four VVIP jets that you have mentioned today. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member,
you know, some years ago – I think about two to three years ago – when the former Deputy President Kgalema was still in office, you will recall there was a story in the media about Falcon 900 that landed in the middle of nowhere during the night, somewhere in the jungle of the Democratic Republic of Congo. It was because there was a challenge with Falcon 900. We have not seen the Falcon 50s since the beginning of this year because both of them have been declared inserviceable. [Interjections.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Why?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I do not
know, Mr Maynier. The other challenge which we need to take cognisance of is that all of these aircrafts are in fact old aircrafts. Yes, they are. Even when we bought them some of them were already second-hand aircraft. So, the fact that I am not a pilot, I do not know what goes on when they report that aircrafts are inserviceable. But I take advice from them because they are the technical expects and they know what it means to be inserviceable or serviceable. But since taking over as Minister of Defence I can assure there have been several occasion where undesirable incidents have occurred whiles our principals are airborne in those aircraft. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Chairperson to mhloniswa uNgqongqoshe [hon Minister], firstly I want to correct the misconception that I am not aware of what is going on in terms of the Operation Thusani. I was part of the oversight team that went to see what is going on at Wallmansthal.
There we found Cubans busy polishing tires, sweeping floors and also fixing those obsolete vehicles. Therefore I know exactly what is going on. But my question arises from your response that there are jets that are actually out of service at this point in time. So, I just want to know how many of those VVIP aircrafts are currently not in use due to poor or neglected maintenance.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon
Mncwango, I did mention that currently we have four aircrafts: The BBJ, the Falcon 900 and the two Falcon 50s. The two Falcon 50s have been inserviceable since last year. Now the Falcon 900 – including the BBJ, by the way – whenever you send this out for servicing ... For instance, they are not serviced here in South Africa, which is another very strange matter. This aircrafts are serviced out of the country and, of course, they take no less than three to six months before they are brought back into the country.
And whilst the aircraft is being serviced outside of the Republic of South Africa, we then have an obligation to charter an aircraft for the use of our principals. So, yes, I can also say may be it is as a result of the skills drain. Truth of the matter, we do have people who take their exit packages from the SA National Defence Force just as it has happened in the entire public service but we continue to train more people. We continue to train engineers and pilots so that they can takeover the work of servicing our aircrafts. But, of course, the last thing we need to make sure that we sort out the contract in order to have an agreement: One, for skills transfer so that the repairs on maintenance is done here in the country, and
secondly, that we get younger people to learn how to do it so that one day we can be self sustainable.
Nks N P SONTI: Sihlalo weNdlu, ingaba uMphathiswa wezoKhuselo naMagqala oMkhosi uzicingisisile kusini na iindlela zokunqanda inkcitho-mali ezibekwe nguMphathiswa wezeMali? Ukuba ngaba kunjalo, zeziphi ezinye iindlela elithe isebe lakhe laziqwalasela phambi kokuba afikelele kwisigqibo sokungena kwesi sicelo sonaniselwano ngoshishino lwenqwelomoya eyi-VVIP Configured Inter-continental Aircraft? Ingaba olu naniselwano alubandakanyeki kusini na kwezi ndlela zokunqanda inkcitho-mali? Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu.
UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NAMAGQALA OMKHOSI: Enkosi mama,
nakuwe lungu elihloniphekileyo. Ezo zinto ozithethayo mama, zizinto esizijongayo kakhulu. Ukuqala nje inkqubo yonaniselwano siye sithi makubekho isimemo sokuba abantu bathumele iinkcukacha ngezinto zonaniselwano. Ngolu hlobo sibonakalisa ngokuthe gca ukuba sizama kangangoko ukuba singaziboni sithenga ngokungekhomthethweni.
Isizathu sokuba ndithethe ngolu hlobo yinto yokuba asikwazanga ukuba siqhubeke phambili ngesicelo sokuthenga (request for offer) ngenxa yomcimbi wemali. Bathe abantu xa
bethumela isicelo sokuthenga kwabonakala ukuba asikwazi ukubanayo thina loo mali ingako yokwenza ezo zinto.
Nangona kunjalo, siyanyanzeleka ukuba inqwelomoya siyithenge ngoba ukuba asiyenzi loo nto, ngenye imini sakuze sehlelwe yintlekele esingazange sayicinga. Le nto iya kuze yenzeke nokuba ngubani na oyakube esesihlalweni sokuba nguMongameli weli lizwe. Ngoko ke kuyanyanzeleka ukuba senze yonke into ukuqinisekisa ukuba abo basemagunyeni bakhuselekile xa bekwezi nqwelomoya.
Le nto iyingxaki kuba abanye abantu baza kucinga ukuba lixabiso elikhulu eli, xa bemamele, babe bengalithelekisanga ixabiso lokuyiqasha nexabiso lokuyithenga ibe yeyakho. Eyona nto ingcono yeyokuba ubenenqwelomoya eyeyakho oza kuthi uyilawule ngokwakho, iqhutywe ngabantu bakho, ilungiswe (service- iseviswe), nokutya kwenziwe kwangabantu bakho. Ngolo hlobo, ukhuseleko lwalowo wongameleyo luqinisekisiwe ngokungafaniyo nalo uqeshayo, ohlawule imali ube ungazi nabaqhubi beenqwelomoya ukuba ngoobani na kuquka nabanye abantu abasebenza kuyo.
Mandiyithethe kodwa ukuba xa siqasha inqwelomoya ibakhona inkqubo yokugocagoca, ngokhuseleko, inkampani leyo ukuqinisekisa ukuba ikulungele ukuba ingasebenzisana norhulumente. Ngoko ke siyazama kangangoko ukuba sijonge
ukuba singenzi inkcitho kodwa ke eneneni kule ingxaki kunzima. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N P SONTI: House Chairperson, has the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans applied her mind to the cost- cutting measures that have been set by the Minister of Finance? If so, what other measures has her department considered before she entered into this procurement agreement involving the VVIP Configured Intercontinental Aircraft? Do these cost-cutting measures not apply to this particular procurement process? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you,
ma‘am, and to you hon member. The matters you are raising, ma‘ am, are matters that we pay particular attention to. At the beginning of any procurement process we send out invitations for people to send us details of the goods and services they provide. In this way we make it clear that we are trying by all means to avoid getting involved in illegal procurement processes.
The reason I say this is because we could not continue with a request for offer on account of financial constraints.
When people sent a request for offer it became clear that
we do not have enough money for this. Be that as it may, we are compelled to buy this aircraft because if we do not do that, one day we will have a huge disaster beyond our imagination. This would happen regardless of who is in the seat of presidency in this country. Therefore we are compelled to do everything to ensure that those in authority are safe on these aircraft.
This is a problem in that some people hear the price of the aircraft and think it is too high, without weighing it against the cost of chartering it. It is best to have your own aircraft that you can manage yourself, to be flown and serviced, and have catering handled by your own people. In that way the safety of the one in the presidential seat is guaranteed, unlike on a chartered aircraft, where you do not know who is flying the aircraft or who are the staff members there.
However, let me make the point that we do make use of a screening process when chartering aircraft, to look at the safety record and the suitability of the service provider to contract with government. Therefore we are trying our best to make sure that we avoid unnecessary expenditure but in this case it is very difficult to avoid the high costs involved. Thank you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Ngiyabonga, ngicela nabalandelayo asizameni ukuphendula phakathi kwesikhathi esisinikeziweyo. [Thank you, I urge the next speakers to please try to respond within the allocated time.]
Use of private security guards in crowd control on university campuses
253. Mr J J Maake (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether, in view of the fact that crowd control during public protests is according to law a mandate of the SA Police Service, he has found that the use of private security guards in crowd control on the university campuses is inappropriate and illegal as they have not been trained nor mandated to perform that function; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps has he taken to address the matter? NO2888E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, the use of private security guards employed by universities as first responders to protect property and prevent crime on their own premises, is not unlawful and there is no law that prohibits them from protecting life and property, especially in circumstances of emergency. Until the SA
Police Service is called in to assist, the private security guards are the first line of defence to manage unlawful attacks on persons as well as property. It would be unrealistic to expect universities to do nothing to protect lives and property, especially when there is no appropriate police presence at a given time.
The Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, established by the Private Security Industry Regulation Act of 2001, is obligated to promote a legitimate private security industry which acts in terms of the principles contained in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and other applicable laws. According to section 11 of the said Act, the Minister of Police has a supervisory role in respect of the authority to ensure that acceptable standards are maintained.
Furthermore, the SA Police Service and the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority Psira have recently signed a memorandum of understanding to enhance co-operation and address issues of mutual concern, including acceptable standards for private security providers. The SA Police Service and Psira have already commenced with the operationalisation of the memorandum of understanding.
Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.
Mr J J MAAKE: Madam Chairperson and hon Minister, in relation to the memorandum of understanding signed between the SA Police Service and Psira, and in the light of the extreme restrain that has been exercised by the police under this difficult conditions, is this the professionalism that we have always been looking forward to in the National Development Plan, NDP, and can we expect this to continue in the future? Thank you, Madam
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, we have only emphasised the question of the members of the police in the service having got to act professionally. Therefore, the starting point is that regardless of the pressure points as we have seen in the recent past in so far the issue of public protests are concerned and so on, the starting point is that we are dealing with human beings and therefore our response and our measures should also be part of a balancing act that essentially enhances that particular outlook and approach. We would say, hon Maake, that even in the near future and further on in the future this is what we would strive to achieve at all material times. But that goes along with the question of equipping ourselves from all different angles. That would include the question of ongoing training and also equipments that have to be factored in ensuring that we police such incidences quite
responsibly and in accordance with the outlook of our Constitution. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson and Minister, I think you will agree with me that the need for private security only exists in so far as the shortcomings of the Police Service having created a gap for the private security sector to fill. The use of private security guards for crowd control at universities is because for at least 10 years the public order policing units in the SAPS were grossly neglected in staffing, resourcing, equipping and training with personnel number declining from about 11 000 in 2004, to less than
5 000, 10 years later.
Because the key is effective crowd control, whether by police or by private security, is sheer force of numbers. They struggle to police public arrest. They get Penny Key, they get High Strung and they get Trigger Happy which can worsen unrest situation instead of de-escalating it smartly. We know one example where on 20 October this year
... [Time expired.]
My question is, Minister, in light of the long standing decline of the public order policing, POP, what is being done to fast-track the patchy building so that they are
well-staffed and well-trained to maintain effective crowd control?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, let me start with the first point that the hon member spoke to. I don‘t believe that you will come across a university that will tell you that they have hired private security guards for crowd control purposes. The intention is not necessary that, but the intention is the question of protection of private property and so on. It is also a matter of fact that the SA Police Service, beginning in December 2013, for an example, has been rebuilding its own capacity to deal with the question of public order policing. Alongside with that, of course the question of personnel training and associated with that, is the question of equipping our members and we have been gradually increasing numbers at that level in terms of intake as well as subjecting members to training. But also is the question of reviewing our equipment, for instance, to assist police in policing such incidences. And we will continue to do exactly that.
Of note for us is the question of our own lessons as drawn out of the Marikana experience, for an example. That indeed we have more of increased levels of public sort of protest situations which are a demand of the day and we will certainly focus on that. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr M Z DLAMINI: Chairperson and Minister, during the fees must fall protests we saw a growing trend of the private security companies breaking the law by assaulting students, throwing stones to students like we saw in Wits and went as far as killing students like we saw in the University of Johannesburg, UJ.
Are you empowered to arrest these people, and how many have you arrested like you did to students? How many of these private security guards have you arrested so far?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: On this question, for instance, there have been a number of allegations relating to the question of private security guards abusing certain situations during the fees must fall activities. These matters have been taken up with the Private Security Regulatory Authority for further investigations and we will certainly follow through on such allegations, for example, against private security companies. Thank you very much.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Chairperson, I just want to ask the Minister, with the University of Johannesburg alone spending R15 million on private security by September of this year, there are these costs and the additional private security costs of every university which will likely be passed on to students in the coming year or years. How is
your department interacting with universities to assist with the SAPS personnel in times of protests so as to reduce the number of private security officers which will actually enhance, not only students safety, but also reduce university operating costs?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, we get called in during emergency situations at universities as they occur. Our responsibility is to therefore respond accordingly in assisting universities. I think this point has got also to be understood that the protocol arrangement is such that it is the university authorities that would have to alert the police and invite them to assist in beefing up security arrangements within the institutions. Indeed, there is co- operation and working together in such situations between security arrangements within institutions and us, the SA Police Service. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Current proposals of RSA and United Nations to resolve the Syrian War
252. Mr M S A Masango (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:
What are the current proposals that the Republic and the United Nations have tabled to resolve the Syrian
War, which has seen the involvement and interests of major powers displacing Syrians, tearing at the fabric of the country and forcing thousands of Syrians to migrate? NO2887E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: The South African
government continues to be very concerned about the devastating human tragedy unfolding itself in Syria. Our highest priority remains to stop the killing and end the suffering of innocent civilians. There has to be an immediate end to the political violence and for the talks to begin to reach a Syrian-led political transition reflecting the will of the Syrian people.
South Africa condemns all human rights abuses in particular the violation of human rights of vulnerable groups such as women and children in ethnic minorities. South Africa condemns human right s abuses and the increasing reports of war crimes, and crimes against humanity that are surfacing as the fighting in Syria continues.
South Africa rejects any call for regime change and external military interference or any action not in line with the charter of the United Nations.
We remain convinced that in a complex and diverse society such as Syria there can be no military solution to the conflict.
South Africa remains committed to the sovereignty and independence, unity and territorial integrity of Syria.
South Africa strongly believes that the solution to the on- going conflict must be Syrian-led.
As part of the Brics nations we also issued statement during the recent Brics Summit that was held in Goa, India; in which we called on all parties involved to work for a comprehensive and peaceful resolution of the conflict, taking into account the legitimate aspirations of the people of Syria through inclusive national dialogue and the Syrian-led political process. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M S A MASANGO: House Chair, I do have a follow-up question just for the record to our Minister in our Parliament in our country, nothing like your government.
The follow-up question is, Minister, could it be possible true that the Syrian civil war bears the hallmark of the so-called second cold war playing itself out in a Syrian theatre?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: What we have noted
in Syria is the question of the involvement of many players; and the players that are involved are not properly coordinated by the United Nations with different intentions.
The war that is going on in Syria has caused untold suffering where more than 6 million Syrian refugees are distributed within the European community. Already as we speak, there have been more than 400 000 deaths since this conflict started to emerge as early as March 2011.
Therefore, there are also issues that have happened there where you find that their fundamentalist, terrorist organisation, foreign terrorist fighters that are all coming into Syria as part of a particular conflict and some of them are funded by a certain organisation, western powers that are actually influencing the space with an aim to do certain issues of regime change. And it is very important to note that the agreement of the Vienna process, in terms of the International Syria Support Group, must be allowed to proceed and the discussions that are happening to try to bring a resolution to that particular matter because as we have said, South Africa does not believe in a military solution in that particular space. But, through
negotiations and less interference but more supporting because international community is also very important to come in to support but not to dictate terms on the Syrian question; like the question of trying to form a transitional government without President Assad, who is very important in terms of the key negotiation process.
Thank you, Chair.
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Acting Minister, in light of the travesties that you have mentioned in Syria, which include gross human rights violations. It backs the question then, to say, why did the South African government choose and prioritise diplomatic immunity over our Constitutional mandate of human rights based foreign policy? When you decided to smuggle out Al Bashir who is a wanted war criminal and your decision to withdraw from the International Criminal Court, ICC, don‘t you think that smacks of double standard?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: The issue that the
member raises is very unfortunate that instead of dealing with the untold sufferings that the people of Syria are experiencing, we are trying to score the lowest cheapest point while we know that we‘re part of a global community.
South Africa is not confused. In our own history and experience, we have always confirmed that when it comes to these matters, we actually push the question of peace and friendship. And we have learned that the resolution of conflict can only happen through negotiations not war.
If you happen to be feeling happier, there are certain powers that are trying to effect regime change. Let‘s be able to deal with those particular issues.
It is very clear that when we went in Brics, including when we went to the United Nations General Assembly, we have said that there should be the cessation of hostilities. The issues of migration that is happening, the refugee crisis and the number of people that are losing their lives; those are the issues that we‘re dealing with.
I am not going to be able to stoop low and understand and go to the question ?why have we withdrawn from the International Criminal Court?? That matter has been answered here by the Ministers that are responsible and as government we have taken the right decision. Instead of discussing a political matter like ICC, you chose to run to the courts and the courts have made a ruling that they‘ve dismissed your application. Come aback to the House, let‘s
discuss these issues and we respect the decision of the court. I thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Minister, you referred to taking at least a stance that says ?you respect the sovereignty of the Syrian government.? But of great concern is the issue of gross violation of human rights as you have alluded to. The gravest one is the abuse of women, who have been raped in squatter camps and where they are kept in camps; and issues of health, that are unbearable at the moment.
Whilst we understand that we respect the sovereignty of the Syrian government; would our government, working with the African Union and the international States, ensure that they bring about good health conditions and also counselling for women who have been abused? Just to mention a few because that‘s really gross violation of basic human rights. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: We‘re very happy
that we‘re on the same platform of respecting the sovereignty of nations. It is very important that as a country and its people, we respect sovereignty and other countries must respect ours.
But our position has always been the same; we are the architecture of human rights. Even before South Africa, even the United Nations doubted the charter on human rights, the ANC as an organisation was very advanced around those.
We have condemned the human rights violation that has happened there and we are supporting the calls that independent investigations must be conducted. We have also said there must be cessation of hostilities, no military solution to the conflict, but more importantly, the humanitarian support that must be given to those particular people that are getting the untold sufferings.
It was very unfortunate that the cessation agreement that had to be observed by the Syrian government supported by the Russian Federation, but also the rebels, there was interference and untold number of people were killed and displaced.
Therefore, South Africa will continue to work as we have worked within other international forums, whether it‘s the African union, United Nations in terms of the human rights humanitarian support that they provide there. We‘ll always be there to play our part. Thank you, Chair.
Mr N V MENTE: Minister, I‘m happy when you indicate that the Syrian problem must be Syrian-led because the last time South Africa got involved in western driven conflict resolutions, we ended up with Gaddafi dead; and Libya is destroyed today.
My question to you is very polite ...
... isebe lakho lenze ntoni ukuqinisekisa ukuba abantu baseLibya bayakubona ukuzisola koMzantsi Afrika ngokungenelele kwiindaba ezingabafuniyo ezabulala uGaddafi? (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... what has your department done to ensure that the people of Libya do feel the sense of regret on the part of South Africa over its involvement in the domestic affairs of that country that led to the death of Gaddafi?]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: The hon member
should find time and familiarise herself.
Firstly, with the resolution that the United Nations Security Council took and the resolution that the African Union, AU, took around the question of Libya, one of the things that have happened is the abuse of powers,
especially the veto powers by certain members of the Security Council.
The act on unilateralism, South Africa and our President in particular, were part of the leadership that the AU dispatched to Libya to be able resolve the problem of Libya because we do believe that for all African problems there must be an African solution.
If you have not been following issues, over the last two weeks, our President together with the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation supported by the Minister of State Security, were discussing this important issue in Addis Ababa to find a solution to say how do we help with regard to the untold suffering that are happening to the Libyans and to bring it to an end?
The issues around transitional government that is happening there; assisting with the humanitarian crisis. The story to try to create point that South Africa had a hand is not going to fly, but, if you want to be in a position to score a point, go and check how the Libyans appreciate the role we played in the past and the role we continue to play today. I thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The next question is Question ... [Interjection.]
Mr N V MENTE: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What‘s your point of order?
Mr N V MENTE: It‘s on Rule 91, explanations. Chairperson, the Minister must not distort me; it‘s not point scoring when the signature of Mr Zuma is on that resolution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, you‘re noted.
We‘re done with that question, the next question is Question 260 asked by hon Robertson to the Minister of State Security.
Imminent threat to life of Minister leading to convoy pulling off a specified risky movement
260. Mr K P Robertson (DA) asked the Minister of State Security:
Whether there was an imminent threat to his life when his convoy pulled off a risky movement to overtake a car on a blind rise, resulting in the death of Mr Hermanus van Schalkwyk; if not, why did his convoy perform the specified risky movement; if so, on what statutory ground is his convoy allowed to perform the risky movement if his life is not in imminent danger?
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The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, following this unfortunate incident, the Ministry of State Security issued a statement on 28 December 2015, confirming the accident and conveying the Minister‘s condolences to the family of the deceased. Once more, we convey our condolences to the family of the deceased.
It is unfortunate that a matter that involves a loss of life is being used for cheap political posturing in this House. [Interjections.] The hon member who asked this question should know that, not so long ago, the Minister of Police did brief this House on the progress that has been made on the mandatory investigation that took place following the accident. I am informed that the investigation has proceeded and reached a stage where a summons to appear in court has been served on the driver, to appear in court, on 6 December 2016.
Given the circumstances that this matter is now in the hands of our capable courts, it would be inappropriate to comment on the matter any further. I thank you, Chair.
Mr K P ROBERTSON: Hon Chair, the question, hon Minister, was, were you driving defensively, which warranted or justified the speeds at which you were driving?
Now, on 23 December 2015, video footage and eye-witnesses account to your convoy driving in excess of 190km/h. [Interjections.] It took your convoy 8,5 minutes to cover a distance of 24,7km, which includes a mountain pass, a four- way stop and three children‘s crossings. In addition, 10km out of those 24,7km are designated 60km/h and 80km/h speeding zones. [Interjections.]
Your convoy then attempted a dangerous tactical manoeuvre on a blind rise, causing the head-on collision with Herman van Schalkwyk, who was on his way to visit his family for Christmas. You and all of the occupants of the convoy allegedly left the scene of the accident before the necessary and relevant authorities had arrived.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Robertson, please ask your question. You have exceeded one minute.
Mr K P ROBERTSON: My question is: Based on what statutory grounds did you and the occupants of your vehicle leave the scene of the accident while Mr Van Schalkwyk was dying in his vehicle? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, I thank the hon member. Firstly, the member speaks as if he was on the scene – and, with confidence, says the Minister was driving. I must assist the member: The Minister does not drive. [Interjections.]
Secondly, as the member will know, in terms of my answer, the accident was unfortunate. A political party which has nothing to offer ...
An HON MEMBER: You ran away!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: ... other than actually trying to create ...
An HON MEMBER: You ran away! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order!
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, may I rise in terms of Rule 66?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you take your seat for a while, hon Minister?
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, may I rise in terms of Rule 66? For completeness, I would want to read it for you: ?No member may interrupt another member whilst speaking ... ? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.
Mr P D N MALOYI: Now, the members on that side are interrupting the Minister when he is speaking. Can you call them to order? [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: He ran away! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon members, order! Order! Let us not drown out the Minister when he responds, or any other speaker who is speaking in the House. We know that we can heckle but you cannot drown out a member to the extent that he or she cannot speak.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair, as I was saying in my initial response, the accident that occurred was unfortunate, but because of the quality of an opposition
... when government tried to go to the family and wanted to engage, the family agreed. These are the kinds of leaders when people want to be comforted and assisted, the DA Member of Parliament, trying to become relevant in our politics, went there and stopped the family. [Interjections.] As I have said, I am not going to go into the technicalities of the information from a person who tried to behave like an expert.
An HON MEMBER: You ran away!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: The matter will come before the courts on 6 December, this year. The matter is going to be heard. Therefore, I am not going to entertain any further question on a matter that is being discussed by the courts. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: On a point of order, Madam Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I must also remind hon members about Rule 89: the matter of sub judice. [Interjections.] The matter is before the
courts. We know. Continue, hon member. Is that a point of order?
Mr M WATERS: Madam Chair, yes: Rule 92. I would like to refer you to the 2004 Guide to Procedure, which indicates that the Chair should apply the Rule of sub judice in such a way as to impose minimum limitation on open debate. This means that members should be allowed to refer to a matter before a court but cannot discuss the merits of it. So, we can still talk about it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The merits. Yes, that‘s what I was saying. Thank you very much.
Mr M WATERS: So, the question asked to the Minister was why he fled the scene of a crime and left someone to die.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: He hasn‘t answered that yet.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. Thank you very much. You are noted. The Minister has responded and if you are not satisfied with the answer that he has given, you know that there are avenues in this Parliament where you can take your dissatisfaction. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Well, Chair, like before, with the hon Bozzoli, he hasn‘t answered the questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. The next follow-up question will be asked by the hon De Freitas.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Chair, hon Minister, you personally witnessed how the reckless and dangerous driving by a blue-light brigade resulted in this carnage. Would you pledge, today, your support of any change in legislation to allow security detail to drive defensively only when there are threats to Ministers‘ lives; and beyond that, that they would drive according to the rules of the road and not risk the lives of fellow road users unless absolutely necessary? Would you give us that pledge? [Applause.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair, the member is well aware that if he wants to initiate any process in terms of amending legislation, the member will have an opportunity to do so. As a member of this Parliament, I will express my views when that document is tabled. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please! Hon Mbatha?
Mr M S MBATHA: House Chair, hon Minister ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Let‘s listen to the hon Mbatha‘s follow-up question.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Minister, besides being a Minister of state, you are a Minister in the Peace and Security Cluster. The onus is on you to take responsibility here, whether you were driven by a driver, or not.
My question to you is: A man was not meant to die on the road when you, as a responsible leader of the country, were involved. Why did you not stop and try to assist the man who was dying as a result of you? [Interjections.] We don‘t even know where you were rushing to. Perhaps you were rushing to that strip club there with your Chinese ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright, thank you very much. You have asked your question. Hon Minister? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much.
Sibonga kakhulu kulungu elihloniphekile. Kunenye indawo la, kunobaba uMbhatha odulayo bese kuba nobaba uMbhatha iLungu lePhalamende elinepolotiki eshibhile. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Thank you very much, hon member. There are two things here
- there is hon Mbatha who employs expensive politics and then there is hon Mbatha who is a member of Parliament who resorts to cheap politics. [Interjections.]]
Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! On what point of order are you rising, hon member?
Mr M S MBATHA: On whatever Rule. We are elected here. There is nothing called cheap politicking.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member. Noted.
Mr M S MBATHA: You must protect me, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are noted, thank you.
Mr M S MBATHA: Yes, my views are ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that‘s a point of debate. I agree. That‘s a point of debate, not a point of order. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Ngibonga kakhulu Sihlalo. [Thank you so much Chairperson.]
Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order, Chair ...
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Engingakusho ukuthi ... [What I can say is that ...]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, please take your seat. Hon Mkhaliphi?
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, Chair, he must withdraw. The Minister of Rhinos must withdraw his statement that the hon Mbatha is cheap. No. He must withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member. I am not going to entertain that. Continue, hon member.
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, on a point of order: The hon member referred to the Minister as the Minister of Rhinos. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I said I was not going to entertain that. I think I made a ruling. [Interjections.] Continue, hon Minister.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELEKA KWEZWE: Sihlalo, lungu
elihloniphekile, besengishilo ngaphambilini ukuthi inhlekelele eyenzeka ngaleyo mini inhlekelele sonke esathi uma yenzekile safuna ukudlulisa amazwi ethu okuzwelana nomndeni. Ngenxa yezinga lepolitiki eshibhe kakhulu futhi engabizi, leli lungu lazi kahle ukuthi udaba olufana nalolu lusezithebeni zenkatolo, kuyosizakuyonceda-ke ukuthi noma ngabe ipolitiki yakho isezingeni eliphansi kodwa ukwazi ukuzifundisa imithetho yeNdlu yesishayaumthetho wyasePhalamende ukuthi isebenza kanjani. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, hon member, I have stated that, the accident that happened on that day was an unfortunate accident and that when it happened we all wanted to convey our condolences to the family of the deceased. Because of the cheap politics that is not expensive, this hon member knows very well that this matter
is still before the court; it will then help you, even though your politics has a low standard but you must learn how the rules of the National Assembly works. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon Esterhuizen?
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 92: The hon Minister has just used the sub judice Rule, once more. I would like to refer to another ruling given in this House by the then Speaker, on 13 February 1998. [Interjections.] The Speaker said that references to cases in the courts and to the facts in the cases would not be a violation of the sub judice Rule. So, clearly, the Minister can answer the question.
Secondly, he seems to be an expert at massaging the answers that he‘s giving us ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I think that is not a point of order you are raising now.
Mr M WATERS: Thirdly, on another point of order: Earlier on, when he answered the hon Bozzoli‘s question, he indicated he does not know Mr Dlamini. We have a recording of him ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member. We are not there. We have passed that question.
Mr M WATERS: ... [Inaudible.] ... and he has deliberately misled the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, we are not going back there. That was answered. [Interjections.] There were questions and there were answers. The last follow-up question is from the hon Esterhuizen. What is it, hon Mbatha?
Mr M S MBATHA: My question was never answered. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What should I do? Should I put words into ...
Mr M S MBATHA: You must force it from his mouth. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! Hon Esterhuizen?
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Madam Chair, I am actually going to respect the Minister and not ask any further questions on
the specifics. However, the core of this question is about the blue-light brigade, the VIP Protection Unit.
Minister, in your portfolio as Minister of State Security, how can you justify the VIP drivers acting like gangsters when they shot at an 84-year-old man who couldn‘t get out of the way of a government convoy fast enough? Especially coming from you, what example are you going to set? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, I thank the hon member for respecting the fact that the matter is still before the courts. On the question of the blue-light brigade, there is clear legislation on why a law-abiding country and as Members of Parliament, we should be able to defend the laws. If there are weaknesses in the laws, the member is at liberty to try to initiate a legislative process. Let‘s engage on it, rather than to try to introduce a change or amendment to a law in an unprescribed manner.
On the allegations that are being made against members of the VIP Protection Unit, these are allegations, because I have not seen the facts. If there is misconduct of any one of us in authority, our democracy has checks and balances. If there was an incident of people that were shot, it is
also the responsibility of those who have information to come forward and report the matter to the law-enforcement agencies. If we are not happy with that, there is a body, established by the laws of this House, that oversees. If you don‘t believe in that body, we also have an opportunity to go to our courts.
Our democracy remains strong. If there are wrongdoings, don‘t cast aspersions on the conduct of one or two individuals. Let‘s go there and subject them to the accountability system. I thank you, Chair.
Implication of Morocco’s reapplication for readmission to the AU for Western Sahara
249. Mr M S A Masango (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:
Because of Morocco‘s illegal occupation of Western Sahara it has not been a member of the Organisation for African Unity for decades nor the current African Union, however, recently Morocco has reapplied to the African Union for readmission, what are the implications of this development for Western Sahara?
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UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE (ESIKHUNDLENI SIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUDLELWANO NAMAZWE OMHLABA
NOKUBAMBISANA): Kubonakala sengathi ngizoyisebenzela le mali namuhla, Sihlalo. [Uhleko.]
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Yisebenzele.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE (ESIKHUNDLENI SIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUDLELWANO NAMAZWE OMHLABA
NOKUBAMBISANA): Ngibonga kakhulu, Sihlalo. Sibonge umbuzo welungu elihloniphekile ubaba uMasango. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): It looks as if I am going to earn my living today, Chairperson. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Earn it.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Thank you very much, Chairperson. I thank the hon member Masango‘s question.]
The Kingdom of Morocco voluntarily withdrew from the Organisation of African Unity after its decision to admit the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic as a member state. It was never a member of the African Union. Its current request is therefore neither for readmission nor reapplication. The African Union, AU, succeeded the Organisation of African Unity, OAU, and the Constitutive Act of the AU was adopted in 2000. The Constitutive Act establishes the AU and through its provision sets out how it will work including engagement between member states.
Any state might at any time request the chairperson of the commission to be admitted without reservations to the Union and the relevant procedures, in terms of the Act and the rules procedures of the Assembly, they then become applicable. I thank you.
Mr M S A MASANGO: House Chairperson and hon Minister, will South Africa and the AU support the admission of Morocco into the AU, and will they relent in their demand that the Western Sahara must get self determination? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): The first question is that, South Africa as we have indicated, like any member state, is expected to consider the request to accede to the Constitutive Act. For a country to become a
member state must receive the majority of the Union‘s member states thus meeting the simple majority required for its admission. As I have been told, we have noted that the current indications are that 28 member states already support Morocco‘s accession.
South Africa is confident that if the Kingdom of Morocco is seeking to become the 55th member of the African family of nations, will unreservedly respect the AU Constitutive Act as a firstly and its decision particularly with regard to the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic as well as the international law, resolutions of the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council on the question of the right to self-determination of the people of the Western Sahara. If you don‘t come with conditions, you follow the Act and your membership will be supported.
However, we will not be in a position to accept a condition that says that the rights of the people of Sahrawi must not be respected. I thank you.
Ms H O HLOPHE-MKHALIPHI: Chair, today, you are working, Minister and you are working for money. I hope after this you will go straight to the massage parlour. Nevertheless, Chair, I am interested on the position of South Africa in this case because Morocco withdrew from the OAU in 1984,
when the then OAU recognised the autonomy of the Western Sahara ... [Interjections.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: I think hon Hlophe is addressing the Minister in a disrespectful manner and she is not supposed to do that. Can you request her to withdraw the massage parlour thing?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, let us allow the freedom of speech. It is not insultive. To go to the massage parlour is not insulting. Continue, hon Hlophe.
Ms H O HLOPHE-MKHALIPHI: To the Minister, I was saying that Morocco has not changed or withdrew from its illegal occupation of the Western Sahara and this contradicts the founding principle of the African Union. I want to know from you ... [Interjections.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam Chair, I respect your ruling, but if you read section 85(1) carefully it says:
No member may impute improper motives to any other member or cast personal reflections upon a member‘s integrity or dignity or verbally abuse a member in any other way.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I think I have ruled on that one. Thank you very much. May you continue?
Ms H O HLOPHE-MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, will South Africa support the readmission of Morocco to the OAU? If yes, why? If no, what will we be doing in the meantime to mobilise the AU member states to reject Morocco‘s request for readmission? Thank you.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE (ESIKHUNDLENI SIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUDLELWANO NAMAZWE OMHLABA
NOKUBAMBISANA): Ilungu elihloniphekile liphambanisa izinto Sihlalo. Besengishilo ukuthi okokuqala, izwe lase-Morocco alifaki isicelo sokungena kabusha [readmission] futhi i-OAU ayisekho, sekwabakhona i-African Union, AU. Engakusho ukuthi amaLungu ePhalamende kufanele azi ngoba sishaya umthetho wokuthi nenhlangano yethu yeAfrika inawo umthethosisekelo wokuqhuba ngayo izinto, lokhu okubizwa i- Constitutive Act ekhuluma ukuthi uma izwe lifuna ukuba yilungu lenhlangano yaseAfrika kunemigomo okufuneka liyilandele.
Kufuneka likwazi ukuthi uma lifaka isicelo njengoba izincwadi bezithunyelwe wuSihlalo weCommission, bakwazi ukuthi amazwe ngamazwe abone. Kuba nenombolo edingakalayo
ukuthi mangaki amazwe avumayo. Uma futhi umthetho lowo we- AU uthi; uma ufika laphaya awukwazi bese ubeka imibandela yokungabaza [reservations] ukuze wemukelwe. Lowombuzo sesiwuphendulile ukuthi izwe lase-Morocco ukuze libe yingxenye ye-AU alinakwazi ukusibekela imibandela okungafana nombandela wokuthi izwe lase-Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic likwazi ukuthi likishwe lapho. Izwe laseNingizimu Afrika ngeke lakuvuma, umthetho we-AU, umthethosisekelo, awukuvumeli lokho. Ilungu lePhalamende malikhululeke ukuthi uyolandelwa lowomthetho. Ngiyabonga.
Mnu M A MNCWANGO: Mphathisihlalo, angibonge kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uMahlobo. Mpangazitha! (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): The hon member is confusing issues, Chairperson. First of all, I have already stated that Morocco is not applying for readmission and that the OAU does not exist anymore, as it was replaced by the African Union, AU. What I can say is that the hon Members of Parliament must know that as we are making laws, our African organisation too has the constitution through which it runs its affairs, that law is referred to as the Constitutive Act which states that if a
country wants to be a member of this African organisation there are conditions that it must follow.
It must know that when it applies – like those letters that were sent by the Commission Chairperson, would enable all the countries to see them. There is certain number of countries that is needed that accept its application. And if that law of the AU states that: when you get there you cannot have reservations for being accepted. I have already answered that question – that for Morocco to be part of the AU it cannot have conditions like saying that the membership of Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic be terminated. South Africa would not agree with that, the AU legislation will not allow that, the constitution does not allow that. The Member of Parliament must relax for this legislation would be followed. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister Mahlobo. Mpangazitha! [clan name of the Mahlobos]]
All I want to ask is: what is the South African government doing to champion the course of the Western Saharan people in the multilateral fora that South Africa participates in such as in the United Nations and the AU itself, considering that in the past we actually successfully
mobilised the frontline states against the apartheid regime.
Ngabe senzani, mhlonishwa, ukulekelela abantu base-Western Sahara?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE (ESIKHUNDLENI SIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUDLELWANO NAMAZWE OMHLABA
NOKUBAMBISANA): Lungu elihloniphekile Sihlalo, sibonge ilungu elihloniphekile uMpangazitha. Esingakusho ukuthi uHulumeni ka-ANC, uholwa uNxamalala, kuzozonke izigcawu ezikhona, noma kungezalana esifundeni [region] noma kwizwekazi [continent] luhlale udaba olufana nalolu lukhulunywa njalo. Okwesibili, uma uya kwinhlangano kaMhlabuhlangene [United Nations] kunesinqumo esathathwa ukuthi abantu base- Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic mabanikezwe ilungelo labo lokuba bazimele njengezwe. [Self- determination]
Njalo kuyo yonke indawo esihlale sikhona siye sikwazi ukuthi sikusekele lokho. Umama uSihlalo lwekhomishana lwe- AU waze waba nenxusa lakhe alithumela, ubaba owayenumongameli, uMongameli u-Chisano wase-Mozambique ukuthi makaye laphaya e-Western Sahara ayokhulumisana nabo ukuze kukwazi ukuthi isimo esifana nezinto ezikhona laphaya ezenzakalayo ngendaba yezokuphepha nokuthi bakwazi ukuthi
bahlangane njengesizwe ekugcineni balithole leli thuba lokuthi babenayo inhlolovo [referendum] yokuthi bafuna ukuzimela, bahlonishwe njengezwe. Kodwa okubalulekile, izwe lase-Western Sahara, thina siyi-AU futhi singamazwe angamalungu [member states] siyalihlonipha njengezwe elizimele. Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[What are we doing, hon Minister, in support of the people of Western Sahara?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation): Hon member Chairperson, let me thank the hon member Mpangazitha [clan name of the Mncwangos]. What I can say is that the ANC-led government, is led by Nxamalala [clan name of the Zumas], in all the platforms that are available, should they be from this region or from the continent where issues like this are always discussed. Secondly, when considering the United Nations, there is a resolution that was taken which states that the people of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic should be granted their self-determination as the country.
Wherever we are we are always able to support that. The madam Chairperson of the AU Commission ended up having her
own ambassador, the former president, President Chisano of Mozambique whom she sent to the Western Sahara to talk to them about the things that are happening there with regard to safety and that they should unite as the nation and that at the end they found this opportunity of conducting a referendum of the need for self-determination, to be respected as the nation. But what is important is the country of the Western Sahara, we as the AU and as the member states, we respect it as the sovereign state. Thank you very much, Chairperson.]
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Chairperson and Acting Minister, I have to agree with you today. You are working very hard for your massage parlour slush funding. I hope you have a happy ending. This is a long standing ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can you clarify the words slush funding because I don‘t have a problem when you say the Minister will be tired to go to the massage parlour, but what is this slush funding?
Mr S MOKGALAPA: It is just serious resources and funding. That is all it is.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are you meaning the payment to the massage? Thank you, continue.
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Acting Minister, this is a 50-year-long standing conflict that has been there. You have referred to the issue of the referendum which is the bone of contention at the moment. I think once the Sahrawi people are given that opportunity to decide on their own self-determination and their own independence, it is very much important and critical for that.
The question is: what action steps the South African government is taking to ensure that the referendum is taken with open and very democratic way and that the will of the people of Sahrawi is respected in order to ensure that at the main end the independence and the sovereignty of the Sahrawi people?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (On behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):Chairperson, there is a level of deterioration and the kind of very bankrupt politics where we have a situation where a member, instead of the country see the kind of the opposition we have, engaging in a debate and issues of insinuation. I thought you will rule around the slush fund words. The issue of trying to tarnish people and cast aspersions, must be attended because it is an abuse. That is my first response.
Nevertheless, on the question that is being asked, the member would be quite aware that South Africa doesn‘t work alone. We work within the families of nations in the structures that countries and member states have agreed to. To suggest that South Africa alone should do something that is not our policy position. We work within the regional body which is the Southern African Development Community, SADC. To try to articulate our position influence the issues we work within the African Union and we also work within the United Nations.
We can mention that the progress that has been made around the question of the people of Sahwari is not satisfactorily and we have noted that there have been disturbances that even the United Nation has been in the position to intervene. We will remember the out going secretary-general had an opportunity where he used words in March this year when he called what is happening there as an occupation.
But there was retaliation by the Moroccan government where it expelled civilian staff members of the ministry that is there. This has hampered the ability of the United Nation missions to carry out its mandate as mandated by the United Nation Security Council.
The fact that Morocco now is coming to the party and is applying for membership and when it respects the
Constitutive Act of the African Union, we would hope that engagements will happen. But as South African government within this family of nations, we will press ahead that the question of Sahwari has not been resolved. They need to be given their enable right to freedom. Therefore, the question of referendum is going happen. We are going to continue to raise the voice. If member you are one of those, we are peace loving people. Join the ANC government and let us raise the matter until their freedom is achieved.
Lastly, the ANC government does not tire. It took our freedom many decades before we achieved. Therefore, the people of Sahwari must never give up. They have our solidarity. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN: Madam Chair, may I ask you to remind the Minister that this session is a questions and answers session, and not a debating session. The debate happened yesterday.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is not a point of order, disregard what you said. Hon members, the three hours allocated for questions today has expired. There is only one unanswered question that was transferred from a
written question to an oral question in terms of Rule 146(1).
As all other questions in this category have been discharged in terms of Rule 146(2), an additional
30 minutes has been allocated in this regard. I now take Question 42 which has been asked by the hon Mbhele to the Minister of Police. Hon Minister, Question 42 was an unanswered question that was transferred from a written question to an oral question. Are we together, Minister?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, we are not together.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I can give you time to check, Minister. I believe that ... er ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I am not sure whether Question 42 used to be Question 2264.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am told that the office of the Minister has been informed of this question that is going to be answered today. But if the Minister is experiencing a problem, you can tell us.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, Madam House Chair. I have Question 46 and Question 47, and they were quoted differently before and I don‘t have Question 42, that is why I am asking ...
Mr I M OLLIS: Madam House Chair, if I could be of assistance. It is Question 42 today and it is in fact the former Question 2204.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Did I ask you to assist, hon member? [Interjections.] It is Question 2204 but ...
Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam House Chair, may I rise on Rule 31? Are members of the opposition walking out because they don‘t want to vote for the report on the finances of this country?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don‘t want to pre- empt their reasons, hon member. [Interjections.] Er ... Hon Minister, if there is a problem, it can be dealt with. We can report to the Table to reschedule that question.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I‘ll probably - as the last resort, prefer that route. But I don‘t have Question 2204;
I have Question 2264 from hon Mbhele. I am not sure whether that‘s the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It‘s on this paper but it‘s fine if we can defer the question.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Madam House Chair.
Mr M WATERS: House Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon member?
Mr M WATERS: House Chair, it is unacceptable; this is the second question the Minister has asked to be deferred today. [Interjections.] Secondly, the Minister was well aware that within the ambit of the Rules, written questions that are not answered within 10 days can be transferred to our questions, which was done. Because the Minister did not answer the oral questions by noon today, he has an obligation to reply to the question in this House according to the Rules. As far as I can see - and you must please
guide me, he doesn‘t have the latitude to defer the question one more time. He has to answer the question today, according to the Rules.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, after my consultation with the Table, I have been advised that because the Minister is saying that he doesn‘t have the question now, it should be deferred. What do we expect the Minister to reply to when he doesn‘t have the question? So, they advised me that the question can be deferred.
Mr M WATERS: House Chair, first of all, there is no Rule on that. I don‘t know on what advice you ... [Interjections.] Secondly, our Minister ...
Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam House Chair, on a point of order? [Interjections.] Madam House Chair, on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you allow him to finish.
Mr P D N MALOYI: What is special about ...
Mr M WATERS: Am I addressing you? Can I continue?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, continue.
Mr M WATERS: Thank you very much. House Chair, a Minister should also know their brief. They should know what is going on in their department.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We know that. That is a point we note. [Interjections.] That‘s the point we note. If we are making a mistake with the Table staff; we will come back to the House and apologise for what has happened. But that‘s how I have been advised. And please allow the House to continue with today‘s work. Hon member?
Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam House Chair, I wanted to rise on Rule 92. The member has a tendency to just stand up and raise issues without being recognised. But secondly, the Rule - subrule 11, says that once you have made a ruling, no member must debate that ruling; it must be taken to the relevant structures. On a continuous basis, the member debates the rulings of the presiding officers; this cannot be allowed. It is in contempt of the Rules of this House. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, that means the allocated time for questions - even the written and oral, has expired. And what we are concluding on about this issue is that the hon Minister is asking for the question to be a standover according to Rule 141. So, we
are continuing. As we continue, I will ask the secretary to read the first order of the day.
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Can I address you on Rule 84. The gesture that has been displayed by the hon members of this House is so unacceptable - dumping the responsibilities that were given to them by the South Africans. It is therefore being unparliamentary if the hon members dump the responsibilities given to them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, unfortunately the order does not refer to any process that we are dealing with now. Thank you very much.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
DIVISION OF REVENUE AMENDMENT BILL
(Decision of Question on Second Reading)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I wish to remind you that on Tuesday, 15 November 2016 the decision on the question of the second reading of this Bill was postponed. So, we have to go back to the voting. I am going to allow the bells to rung for five minutes.
Mr M WATERS: House Chair, the division has not been called yet. You have not put a question. I mean, is that not what you should do?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Hon members, I took it that, because this was a postponed question, this is where we should start. Can we continue?
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
During division:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is your machine not functioning? [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, my machine is working, but I mistakenly voted on the wrong side ... on the side of Minister Mthethwa.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you for reporting that because it is a serious misconduct. They will take care of that.
Does any other member have a problem?
AYES - 193: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Ebrahim, E I; Esterhuizen, J A; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D
P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Manyoni, T M
; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Oosthuizen, G C; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Senokoanyane, D Z; Shabangu, S; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J;
Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D. NOES - 5: Lotriet, A; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Ollis, I M; Waters, M.
As the result of the division showed that there was not a majority of the members of the National Assembly present for a vote to be taken on a Bill as required by Rule 96 (a), decision of question postponed.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT
BETWEEN GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SA AND GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES FOR AVOIDANCE OF
DOUBLE TAXATION AND PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT
BETWEEN GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SA AND GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE FOR AVOIDANCE OF
DOUBLE TAXATION AND PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME
There was no debate.
Declaration(s) of vote:
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP would like to support these Agreements and we want to emphasise the need for tax programmes such as these to carry on. We are actually worried about the high levels of tax evasion which are going on in the country. The fact that foster people are not registered in a manner which is conducive for ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Order, hon members I can hardly hear the speaker on the podium. Continue hon member.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, in supporting it, the most important thing now is implementation and we must explore further initiatives of this regard moving forward. The issues of tax must take priority moving forward. We are concerned though that the areas which have been sighted for these issues of tax are areas which are very vulnerable and we‘ve already seen now people travelling to those areas with large sums of money. That on its own puts into question whether we are serious about these things.
Therefore, our support goes with a high level of concern that there may be an abusive enforcement of them which is not prioritised. Thank you, Chair.
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, we support these agreements. We say taxation as a form of government revenues is of great importance ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!
Prof N M KHUBISA: ... as it enables government to maintain law and order, peace and security, and satisfying the requirements of basic needs and public utilities. Tax is however more than a source of revenue and growth. It also plays a key role in building up institutions, markets and democracy through making the state accountable to its tax payers.
Just as excessive tax burdens might hinder growth and weather countries in developing economies ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon Khubisa, please take your seat. Thank you, hon members. Continue hon Khubisa.
Prof N M KHUBISA: ... a lack of tax structure is a major cause of weak and unresponsive governance and also leads to an overreliance on aid. With tax, the public can hold governments to account for their decisions and not feel tide to the will of aid donors. Because tax revenues are
relatively predictable, governments can plan ahead with greater certainty.
Bilateral taxation agreements are very important for two important reasons: firstly, such agreements avoid double taxation on persons and business enterprises; and secondly, they prevent fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income. The bilateral taxation Agreements which we are requested to approve today will assist South Africa as we as the United Arab Emirates and the Republic of Singapore to regulate tax on cross-border income.
These Agreements are comprehensive and cover the majority of income tax categories, ensuring that taxation-related ambiguity is erased and certainty is established. The Agreements also stipulate to whom the cross-border income taxation applies inclusive of national and juristic persons and apply to all existing and future legislative formats applicable to each and every party state. The NFP wants to see them implemented and we support them. Thank you.
Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, tax treaties and agreements especially dealing with the double taxation and tax avoidance are necessary and important. Modernisation of tax treaties is in line with international standards given the
aggressive and complex nature of illicit financial flows and the threats to the fiscal stability.
We must prioritise exchange of information and assistance with tax collection with other countries especially now that the immoral, corrupt and manipulative Gupta family has decided to move the stolen money to Dubai. The agreements such as this one are very important but the problem is that we are not dealing aggressively with illicit financial flows particularly in the mining and financial industries.
We are failing to enforce the administrative tax legislation as it is. We are failing to build much needed and necessary capacity to deal with illicit financial flows as it is. We do not even know the scale of these illicit financial flows. If we deal with illicit financial flows in a much aggressive manner, South Africa can afford free-fee higher education today.
As the EFF we have presented to the Davis Tax Committee. We have met with Sars and other stakeholders, and provided proper, concrete and complete recommendations. One of the recommendations was to establish a law, an anti-tax avoidance act. This will put a solid foundation to deal with illicit financial flows going forward. Thank you very much.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, I am delighted to tell you that we are supporting these two Reports before the House today. We believe they are well thought-out and well made. However, I do want to spend a little time if I may on why we have done what we have done over the past two days.
Mr Hanekom took to twitter yesterday to have his say – he seems to take to twitter when he is upset but he doesn‘t have the guts to say it in the House ever – about why we did what we did yesterday. It is not our job to drive your legislative programme with your majority through Parliament. That is not what the opposition is here for.
This is your Division of Revenue Act, Dora Bill. We proposed amendments in the committee and several alternatives that you could have put in place but you chose to reject every single one of them. Therefore, please don‘t expect the opposition to arrive in this House to slavishly help you prop up your quorum.
I think the bigger question South Africans should be asking themselves as they watch this House from wherever they are in South Africa is: Where are the ANC Members of Parliament that we elected to come and represent us in this House? [Applause.] Why – and I see Mr Dirks is making lots of
noise at the back there. I am not surprised that his caucus told him to keep his mouth quiet at the caucus meeting a few days ago. I wish you would carry that advice through in this House because that caucus gave you good advice Mr Dirks. Close your mouth!
I think South Africans need to ask themselves that in ... [Interjections.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, on a point of order: The issues raised by the hon member are irrelevant to the topic before us. Can he be relevant?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Noted. Continue hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I think the bigger question we should be asking is, why? We have seen the SMSs in two days, three-line Whips calling on the executive and all members to be present in this House. An SMS sent out
... [Interjections.]
Mr S G MMUSI: Chair, on a point of order: I raise the same point of irrelevance.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can you be relevant? Continue!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, the ANC are
irrelevant! Therefore, it is hard to actually talk about relevance. [Applause.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, on a point of order: We cannot have the Whip of the DA continuing what he is doing all the time. He must follow the Rules. Follow the Rules so that we can respect you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue hon Steenhuisen!
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: According to Rule 92, this is harassment of the speaker at the podium and I ask you to protect the speaker. The truth may hurt but you have to protect the Speaker.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, continue!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Therefore, unlike this taxation laws amendment Bill we are discussing - taxation laws reports we are talking about here, we didn‘t support
the Division of Revenue Act, Dora. But why with two three- line Whips and an SMS can you not get your members to this House? It is an indictment on you and the ANC, not the opposition.
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, we raised a point of order on the relevance that the matter he is debating is not the matter on the Table. You said you heard but he is continuing to be irrelevant. We want you to rule and tell the member either to sit down or be relevant.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, continue!
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Chairperson, I rise on Rule 66 that no member should be continuously interrupted, which is exactly what the ANC members are doing to the hon Chief Whip.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am not going to rule again on this matter. [Interjections.]
Mr D W MACPHERSON: May I please ask that you afford him the protection he deserves?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, fine. I am not going to talk on this matter anymore. At the same time ... I believe that your screen – we had a problem with our, what do you call this? Technicality or whatever machines, technology. Please, the time on your screen – you are left with 60 seconds – I mean – yes, which is a minute.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No problem. I can say what I need to say in a minute. I won‘t actually even take the full minute. How is that? I think that there needs to be some very hard introspection on the government benches about how they take the mandate to govern, that has been entrusted to them by the people of South Africa. This is how they treat it. They treat it with disrespect.
Therefore, South Africans must understand, if they want to govern that‘s going to come to work everyday to fight for them; to fight against unemployment; to fight for job creation; to fight for our economy; to fight for our Constitution; and to fight for the rule of law. You can‘t trust these people on this side of the House. You need to vote for the opposition. Change your vote and in 2019, send the party which actually pitches up for work to this House. [Applause.]
Question put: That the Agreements be approved.
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Arab Emirates for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income approved.
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Singapore for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income approved.
The HOUSE adjourned at 18:40.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly
The Speaker
1. Membership of Committees
(1) The following members have been nominated by their parties to serve on the Ad Hoc Committee on the filling of vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality.
African National Congress
Chueu, Ms MP Maluleke, Ms BJ Manyoni, Mr T
Newhoudt-Druchen, Mrs W Ncube-Ndaba, Ms CN Kekana, Ms PS
Democratic Alliance
Robinson, Mrs D Marchesi, Ms N
Economic Freedom Fighters
Hlophe, Ms HO
Inkatha Freedom Party
Van der Merwe, Ms LL
United Democratic Movement
Majeke, Ms CN
African Christian Democratic Movement
Dudley, Ms C [Alternate]
(2) The following changes to Committee membership have been made:
National Freedom Party
Ad Hoc Committee on the South African Broadcasting
Corporation Board Inquiry
Discharged: Khubisa, Prof NM (Alternate)
Joint Standing Committee on the Financial Management of
Parliament
Appointed: Shaik Emam, Mr AM (Alternate)
African Christian Democratic Party
Ad Hoc Committee on the South African Broadcasting
Corporation Board Inquiry
Appointed: Swart, Mr S (Alternate)
Economic Freedom Fighters
Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration/
Planning, Performance, Monitoring and Evaluation
Appointed: Mokause, Ms MO Appointed: Mente, Ms NV (Alternate)
African National Congress
Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration/
Planning, Performance, Monitoring and Evaluation
Discharged: Mabe, Ms BP
Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Appointment of Board Members to
the National Youth Development Agency
Discharged: Mabe, Ms BP
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1. The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a) Consolidated General Report of the Auditor-General on National and Provincial Audit Outcomes for 2015-16 [RP 357-2016].
(b) Health Sector Report 2015-16 of the Auditor-General South Africa [PR 359-2016].
2. The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a) Government Notice No 1339, published in Government Gazette No 40375, dated 28 October 2016: Amended Code Series CSC200: Measurement of the Management Control Element of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment in the Construction Sector, in terms of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2013 (Act No 53 of 2013).
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
Please see pages 4-73 of the ATCs.
Audio
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