Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 06 Dec 2023

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
THURSDAY, 7 DECEMBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF VIRTUAL (OR HYBRID) NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch here: Plenary 

 

The Council met at 14:09.

 

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The Deputy Chairperson announced that the hybrid sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please be reminded that the Rules and processes do apply for this hybrid sitting. So, before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the Rules leading to virtual hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular subrules, 20, 21, and 23 of Rule 103 which provides as follows: That the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that for purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on to the visual platform shall be considered present; the delegates will switch on their videos if they want to speak; that delegates who experience connectivity issues are encouraged to use a still photograph for identification on the virtual platform, as has become the practise over time; that delegates on the virtual platform are encouraged to log on with one device only as two or more devices further lowers the bandwidth; that delegates should ensure that the microphones on the on their electronic devices are muted and must always be muted unless they are permitted to speak; that all delegates in the Chamber must insert their cards to register on the Chamber system; that delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones; and that all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room.

In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active. Permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates, and Salga representatives on visual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their electronic devices are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives, and members of the executive in the Chamber should use interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation facilities.

Furthermore, hon delegates, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome all permanent delegates, the MECs, special delegates, and Salga representatives to the House.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP moved: That the Council resolves that Rule 218(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of Economic Regulations of Transport Bill, which is conferred from the National Assembly to the National Council of Provinces.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

 

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

 

Motion agreed to.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE THEREON

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Chief Whip and hon members, I hereby present the report on section 77 of Constitution requires that all Money Bills must be considered by a procedure for passing Revenue Bills established by the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act of 2009.

The Act requires the committee to hold public hearings on the Revenue Bills and report to the House.

The Bill was formally tabled in Parliament on 1 November 2023.

 

The select committee received a briefing from the National Treasury and the SA Revenue Service, SARS, on 21 November 2023.

The committee received two submissions from the Institution of Retirement Funds Africa and Old Mutual.
The objective of the Bill is to amend various legislations including: the Income Tax Act of 1962, the Customs and Excise Act of 1964, the Value Added Tax Act of 1991, the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Royalty Act of 2008 and the Carbon Tax Act of 2019.

Hon Chairperson, the Bill is proposing the following amendments: an incentive of individuals who invest in solar panels to encourage households to invest in clean electricity generation capacity; taxation on financial institutions and products; to clarify the foreign business establishments exemption for control of foreign companies; and to clarify the VAT treatment of prepaid vouchers in telecommunications industry, carbon tax and customs and excise tax.

As mentioned earlier, there were submissions from Old Mutual and the Institution of Retirement Funds Africa to which National Treasury responded.

The committee noted and welcomed National Treasury’s responses to the submissions of the two organisations.

The select committee made the following recommendations: the National Treasury should adequately consider the stakeholders’
comments and submissions before the Bills and tabled in Parliament to avoid the withdrawal of some proposed amendments; and the National Treasury should know the concerns raised by Old Mutual and consider its proposal in the next legislative circle.

Hon Chairperson, I now table this report for consideration by the House. I so thank you, Chairperson.

Declarations of vote:
Mr D R RYDER: Mr Chair, I never thought I’d see the day where I miss hon Carrim. I say this on a lighter note, Chair, because he’s in fact a competent and generally fair Chairperson of the committee. He was ill when we processed this Bill and therefore, did not participate. We wish him a full and speedy recovery.

The processing of this Bill through our committee under an Acting Chair was so flawed that any legal challenge to the Bill will undoubtedly be successful.

As an input into the public participation process, we received a letter from the Institute of Retirement Funds Africa, making important proposals in an extremely constructive way to deal with shortcomings in the Bill, with regard to aspects of retirement annuities and provident funds.

During our deliberations the Treasury accepted the inputs and advised that they will update the Bill in its next iteration.

So, Chair, by Treasury’s own admission, the Bill before us is flawed.

 

I, therefore, made the point in the committee that the purpose of our committee, the entire purpose of our committee is to make appropriate changes to Bills where there are deficiencies picked up in the committee. And that we should accept the amendments as proposed, approve the Bill with changes and then refer the Bill back to the National Assembly. National Treasury accepted this, as did the rest of the committee at the time.

Imagine my surprise, Chair, when the final committee report made a totally different recommendation. The report had been amended by the previously absent Mr Carrim to align with the instructions from the executive. What a sham. And the Acting Chair had the audacity to hide her incompetence behind her gender, attempting to invoke the protection of the 16 Days of Activism against Women and Children, against our protestations.

Mr Chair, the real issues of gender-based violence are serious and require genuine awareness and action to this disgusting plague on our country’s women and children.

It is, therefore, alarming to me to have a person cheapen the 16 Days Campaign by falsely claiming the demands for competent processing of Bills and reports are an assault on her gender.

This Bill should be corrected as agreed and sent back to the National Assembly. Thank you, Chair.

Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, good afternoon to you and good afternoon to the hon members, I just wanted to preface this declaration by saying that everything we do as the ANC we do it through the eye of the needle. We are the first ones to pick up if there is any fault or a flaw, and we fix it. And, therefore, one mustn’t come here to cast aspersions amongst the members of the ANC. We are here as the advanced cadres of this movement and we are allrounder in terms of tackling matters of national interest, including the processing of Bills.
I, therefore, rise here on behalf of the ANC to make the following declaration, Chair.

The 2023 budget entailed the provision to support the country’s demand management of the energy crisis by expanding supply to lower household energy demands by introducing the Solar Energy Credit.

The provision for an incentive of 25% of the value of the cost of the Solar PV Panels up to a maximum of R15 000 per individual. For businesses, the temporally enhancement of existing renewable energy tax incentives encourages rapid private investment by deducting 125% of the cost of assets that produce renewable energy.

The Bill has a provision which mitigates any abuse of the incentive through taxing taxpayers where such panels are sold before March 2025 and 2026 respectively.

In relation to practice note 31 of 1994 titled Interests paid on money borrowed, which SARS wanted to withdraw as a result of public hearing inputs ordinarily, deductions are allowed where the requirements of the general deductions formula are met, such as trade requirement, income production requirement and revenue nature requirement.

The Bill further clarifies aspects that relate to section 23m of the Act by including the definition of the creditors for the purpose of the section to enable appropriate consideration of taxable income adjustments.

To address the uncertainty arising from treatment of exchange gains and losses, the Bill proposes that exchange gains be classified as an interest received or accrued for section 23m of the Act.

The Bill, on clarifying the foreign business establishment exemption for controlled foreign companies and states that all important functions for which a controlled foreign company is compensated.

The amendment was withdrawn, pending the Constitutional Court judgment.

The royalty rate for oil and gas companies is a critical element which can also contribute to the sovereign wealth fund aspiration.
Following consultations, Chairperson, it was proposed to retain a flexible royalty rate based on profitability rather than opt for a flat rate for those companies to recognise that companies face varying costs and profit levels, depending on whether they operate in deep or shallow waters.

To ensure that the country is adequately compensated for the loss of its finite resources, the minimum royalty rate for oil and gas will be increased form 0,5% to 2%, which the maximum remaining at 5%.

The ANC supports this Bill, Chairperson. Thank you very much.

 

CONSIDERATION OF TAX ADMINISTRATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE THEREON

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, I now present to you the report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill. The Bill was formally tabled in Parliament on 1 November 2023. We received a briefing from the National Treasury and the South African Revenue Services, Sars, on 21 November 2023.
Despite calling for public comments, no submissions were received by the committee. The objective of the Bill is to amend various legislation. These are the Income Tax of 1962, the Custom and Excise Act of 1964, the Value Added Tax Act of 1999, the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Royalty Act of 2008, and the Tax Administration Act of 2011.

Among others, the Bill proposes to amend the above mentioned Acts as follows: To align them with the anti-money laundering and combating terrorism developments by providing for similar grounds for disqualification of office bearers in tax exempt body corporate and other similar entities, to introduce an enabling framework for the advanced pricing agreement programme in line with international trends, to adjust the employees tax registration requirement for non-resident employers, to provide a single window for advance passenger information and passenger name record data, to enable Sars’s new online traveller management system to make provision for travellers to submit traveller declaration in accordance with requirements determined by the commissioner of Sars, to extend the period to submit a return where taxpayers disagree with an auto assessment.
Having considered all the amendments proposed by the Bill, the select committee adopt the Bill. I therefore table the report for consideration by the House. I thank you.

Declarations of vote:
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, the Democratic Alliance welcomes the aspects of the Bill aimed at strengthening our laws in alignment with the Financial Action Task Force, FATF’s, proposals and standards as a measure to expedite the removal of South Africa from the grey list. We further believe that the advanced pricing agreement proposals are sound and look forward to regular updates on these proposals.

We must however note that numerous inputs from tax practitioners have not been taken seriously. As Sars struggle to win back the trust of taxpayers, even in an environment where some of the colleagues in other departments continue to waste and even steal taxpayers’ money, it would certainly do them good to take on constructive advice from those on the other side of the table, especially in efforts to simplify tax submissions and make compliance simpler and easier to achieve while keeping revenue collections up.
The DA has repeatedly asked for an expansion of the zero-vat rated food basket. Should this proposal by the DA be implemented, it will benefit all South Africans, especially the poorest of the poor, who are not only struggling to make ends meet, but who are literally struggling to survive physically due to malnutrition.

The DA has further asked for a reduction in exorbitantly high fuel levy. Again, a proposal that should it be implemented, will have a huge positive effect on the purses of all South Africa, again, especially on the purses of the poorest of the poor in South Africa. Unfortunately, none of these two issues were handled in any of the three Bills before us today and not in this Bill either. The DA does not support this Bill. Thank you.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, we are faced with an economy which is not growing. As a result, workers are burdened with taxes while wages remain stagnant with the cost of living, increasing drastically. As EFF we reject this Bill as it fails to address income inequality and it does not take into account the lived realities of our people. I thank you.

IsiXhosa:
Mnu Z MKIVA: Sihlalo, mandiqale ndithi oorhunta abangekhe bayamkele into yokuba kwenziwe imithetho nemithethwana yokubarhintyela kubumenemene ababenzayo bokurhubuluzisa iimali zelizwe ngeendlela ezingekho mthethweni. Baya kusoloko gqolo, rhoqo besima beyinqanda ukuba loo nto yenzeke. Kodwa thina singumbutho wesizwe sinoxanduva lokuqinisekisa ukuba iimali zesizwe ezisuka ebantwini nabemi beli lizwe, zikhuselekile.

Loo nto isentendeni yesandla sethu njenombutho wesizwe olawulayo kweli lizwe. Asizanga apha kuba size kutefa okanye size kufeketha, koko sizele izidingo zabantu ekuqinisekiseni ukuba imali nemadlana encinci ayilahleki njee, ngondlela- mnyama. Simele loo nto ke. Ngoko ke iANC imile ithe gomololo, iyawuxhasa lo Mthetho Oyilwayo. Enkosi.

Debate concluded.

 

Mr D R RYDER: Chair, can we just check if there is quorum? I believe that there may not be a quorum between the people in the House and online. If you can check for me, please. I count the votes last time and it was 23.

Mr I NTSUBE: What it informs that?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will ask the Table to assist.

Ms M S MOKAUSE: There is no quorum here.

 

Mr M I RAYI: There is a quorum here.

 

Ms M S MOKAUSE: There is no quorum.

 

Mr I NTSUBE: We are voting. There is a quorum here.

Ms W NGWENYA: There is a quorum.

 

Mr M I RAYI: The quorum is 30.

 

An HON MEMBER: Tell them, MEC, we have a quorum here ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: There is no quorum here ...

 

An HON MEMBER: You can’t get the majority now you want to
resort ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Old tactics by opposition.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: The facts are not going to proceed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, the report is as follows: There are 16 people in the House and 34 on the virtual platform ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Who are those 34 people? Are you counting staff? Why are you counting staff?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... that makes it 40. The quorum is 30. So, there is a quorum ... [Interjections.] ... we will proceed on voting on the question. Just to remind all of us, the question is that the Bill be agreed to.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

 

Voting

[Take in from minutes]

 

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

RATES AND MONETARY AMOUNTS AND AMENDMENT OF REVENUE LAWS BILL

 

(Consideration of Bill and Report)
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, the report of Select Committee on Finance on the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill. The Tax Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Tax Laws Bill was formally introduced on November 1, 2023. On November 21, 2023, we received a briefing from the National Treasury and the South African Revenue Services, Sars. Despite calling for public comments, the committee received no submissions on the 2023 Rates Bill.

The objective of the 2023 Rates Bill is to fix the rates of normal tax; to amend the Transfer Duty Act, 1949 so as to amend transfer duty monetary amounts; to amend the Income Tax Act, 1962, so as to amend rates of tax and monetary amounts; to amend the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, so as to amend rates of duty in Schedule 1 to that Act; to insert new tariff items; to delete tariff items; to delete rebate items; to insert rebate items; to amend the Carbon Tax Act 2019; and to provide for matters connected therewith.

The proposed Taxation Laws Amendment Bill 2003 include adjusting the tax tables for inflation, adjusting the general excise tax duty on alcohol and tobacco by between 4,5% to 6,5% for inflation and delaying the increase in the health promotion levy by one year. The medical tax credits will be
increased from R347 to R364 per month for the first two members and from 234 to 246 per month for additional members. The retirement tables and transfer levies will be increased by 10%.

The committee has made the following findings and recommendations. The committee supports the increases in the cost of tobacco products and reiterates its concern that these increases appear to create space for the illicit tobacco market to grow. The committee recommends that with annual increases in excise tax, National Treasury and SARS should intensify efforts to strengthen the fight against illicit trade of tobacco products.

While delaying the implementation of the increases in the Health Promotion Levy, HPL, raise public health concerns, the committee supports the proposed extension of the increases in the HPL by one year. The committee supports the proposed extension of the HPL, increases by one year. The committee recommends that National Treasury expeditiously finalise the discussion paper to review the HPL on the proposal to extend the levy to pure fruit juices and reduce the 4-gram threshold. Hon Chair, the committee adopted the Bill on 1 December 2021,
and I now submit the report for consideration by the House. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

 

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

 

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL

 

(Consideration of Bill and Report)

 

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chairperson, greetings to you, the leadership of the National Council of Provinces and my fellow colleagues both permanent and special delegates, the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill was passed by the National Assembly and transmitted to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence and referred to the select committee on 29 November 2023. The object of the Bill is to amend the National Road Traffic Act of 1996 as to, amongst others, insert new definitions and to amend others, and also to provide for the suspension and cancellation of the registration of an examiner
for driving licence or an examiner of vehicles if such person has been convicted of an offence listed in schedule 1 or 2 of the Criminal Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977 or as a direct or indirect conflict of interest. Also, to provide for the restriction and upgrading of training centres and to further provide for the restriction of manufactures, builders, importers and manufacturers of number plates including manufactures of reflective sheeting for number plates.

On 26 March 2023, an advert was placed in the national media calling for oral submissions on the Bill with the deadline of
24 April 2023. Oral submissions were heard on 31 May 2023. On
20 September 2023, the department addressed the select committee on its response to the oral and written submissions of the Bill. On 15 November 2023 and 22 November 2023, the select committee considered both the negotiating mandates on the Bill as received from provinces. On 15 November the select committee adopted the C list of the agreed amendments to the Bill. Eight provinces submitted final mandates on the Bill which were considered on 29 November 2023. The following provinces voted in favour, namely, Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West
The Western Cape did not submit the final mandate but the select committee agreed to make a provision for an addendum for the report to be added should the final mandate be submitted by the province of the Western Cape on the Bill before the report is scheduled for adoption in the House.
Indeed, they did submit and they supported the Bill.

 

The select committee agreed to note the final mandate submitted by North West and agreed that the province should be allowed an opportunity to correct the reference for the correct version of the Bill in its nomination mandate and indeed that was corrected.

The Select Committee on Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public Works and Infrastructure thereon, having deliberated all and considered the subject of the Road Traffic Amendment Bill referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a section 76 reports that it has agreed to and amended the Bill. We therefore table the report for consideration. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

 

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northwest, Western Cape.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

NATIONAL LAND TRANSPORT AMENDMENT BILL

 

(Consideration of Bill and Report)

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chairperson, the President of the Republic of South Africa acted in terms of section 79(1) of the Constitution of the Republic Of South Africa expressed reservations about the constitutionality of certain provisions of clause 7 of the National Land Transport Amendment Bill and referred the Bill back to the National Assembly for reconsideration.

The National Land Trasport Amendment Bill was passed by the National Assembly and trans mitted to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence and referred to the Select Committee on Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public Works and Infrastructure on 25 October 2022. The object of the Bill is to amend the National Land Transport Act of 2009 and to
insert certain definitions and amend others and to provide nonmotorised an accessible transport, to bring the Act up to date with development since the implementation of the Act.

On 26 March 2023, an advertisement was placed in the national media calling for written submissions and the deadline was 24 April 2023. The committee held oral submission on the Bill on
31 May 2023. On 20 September 2023, the department addressed the committee on its response to oral and written submissions on the Bill. On 15 November and 22 November, the committee considered the direction on mandates on the Bill as received from provinces. On 15 November 2023, the select committee resolved that no proposed to the amendment to the Bill be accepted.

In the deliberations the select committee was guided by Rule

209 and Rule 210 of the Joint Rules of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa.

On receipt of a remitted Bill in terms of Rule 209 or an amended Bill referred to the Council in terms of Joint Rules 205(1), the Chairperson of the Council must refer the President’s reservation and the Bill to the Council committee. Indeed, that was done.
Eight provinces submitted final mandates on the Bill which were considered on 29 November 202. The final mandates were submitted and the following provinces agreed and voted in favour, namely, Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu- Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West. The province of the Western Cape did not submit their final mandate. The select committee agreed to make a provision for an addendum to the report for the addition of the mandate of the Western Cape should it be considered. Indeed, it was submitted and they voted against.

The select committee considered and classified by the JTM as section 76 Bill report that it has agreed to the Bill and we are therefore tabling the report for consideration by the House. Thank you, national Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

 

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF ECONOMIC REGULATION OF TRANSPORT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT, PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, PUBLIC WORKS, AND INFRASTRUCTURE THEREON

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chairperson, the Bill was passed by the National Assembly and transmitted to the NCOP for concurrency and referred to the State Committee on the 27th of September 2022. The Economic Regulation of Transport Bill seeks to consolidate the economic regulation of transport within a single framework and policy.

And to further establish the transport economic regulator, to establish the Transport Economic Council. And also to make consequential amendments to various other acts. And to provide for related incidental matters.

Chairperson, the Department of Transport briefed the committee on the Bill, on the 8th of February 2023. And on the 26th of March 2023 and advert was placed in the national media calling for submissions on the Bill for the deadline of the 24th of April 2023.
The committee had oral submissions on the Bill on the 7th of June 2023 and on the 6th and 20th September 2023, the department addressed the committee on response, both oral and written submissions on the Bill.

On the 8th of November 2023 and 22nd November 2023, the select committee considered ... [Inaudible.] ... mandates on the Bill as received, provinces. And on the 29th of November 2023, the select committee adopted the “C” list of agreed amendments to the Bill.

Nine provinces submitted final mandates on the Bill, which were considered on the 6th of December 2023. And the final Bill mandates were as follows; Eastern Cape voted in favour, Free State voted in favour, Gauteng voted in favour,
KwaZulu-Natal voted in favour, Limpopo voted in favour, Mpumalanga voted in favour, Northern Cape voted in favour, Northwest voted in favour, and West Cape voted against the Bill.

The Select Committee on Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public Works and Infrastructure having deliberated on and considered the subject of the economic regulation of transport Bill, B1B of 2020 referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a section 75 Bill, reports to the House that has agreed to an amended Bill. We are therefore tabling the report for consideration before the House. Thank you, National Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

 

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

 

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northwest.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

 

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, that brings us to the end, but before we rise, I would like to thank the delegates, Members of Executive Council, MECs, special delegates, South African Local Government Association, SALGA, representatives for availing themselves for this sitting. That concludes the business of the day. The House is now adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 15:19.

 

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