Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 23 Nov 2023


No summary available.


Watch here: Plenary 


The Council met at 14:05.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe the moment of silence for prayers of meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, I’m told we have in the gallery Councillor Phillip Gomes from Sedibeng District Municipality. Welcome.

Hon delegates, please be reminded that rules and processes apply for the hybrid sitting.

So, before we proceed I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular sub-Rules 21, 22 and 23 of Rule 103, which provides as follows:

That the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

That delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

That for the purpose of a quorum, all delegates who are logged-on to the virtual platform shall be considered present.

That delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak. Delegates who experience connectivity issues are encouraged to use a still-photograph or identification on the virtual platform as is the established practice.

That delegates on the virtual platform are encouraged to log- on with one device only, as logging-on with two or more devices further lowers the bandwidth.

That delegates should ensure that the microphones on their electronic gadgets are muted and must always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak.

That all delegates in the chamber must insert their cards to register on the chamber system. That delegates who are physically on the chamber must use the floor microphones. That all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chart room.

In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active.

Permanent delegates, members of the executive and special delegates are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.

Permanent delegates, special delegates, SA Local Government Association, SALGA representatives and members of the executive in the chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation facilities.

Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy Minister of Public Enterprises, hon Obed Bapela. So, welcome Deputy Minister. We know that you are going to be virtual.

But in the same vain, I would also like to welcome permanent delegates, MECs and all special delegates to the House.



Ms T L HLABANGWANI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:


That the House debates the evaluation of water quality and human risk assessment due to heavy ... [Inaudible.]

... in ground water in and around Vhembe District Municipality in Limpopo, as the district has generally been experiencing water shortage.


I so move.


Ms M L MOSHODI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates fast-tracking of the work already done between the government and the taxi industry towards the formalisation and capacitation of the sector to

ensure that it economically grows and strives to continue to play a significant role in the transport industry in South Africa.


I so move.




Moh S B LEHIHI: Modulasetilo, ke tshisinya mo boemong jwa EFF mo kopanong e e latelang ya Ntlo:


Gore Ntlo e ngangisane ka ga seemo se se kwa tlase sa ditirelo tse di rebololwang ke Masepala wa Selegae wa Maquassi Hills ko porofenseng ya Bokone Bophirima. Koo go sa ntse go na le tlhokego ya metsi le kgelelo ya leswe, le matlakala a a nnang dibeke a sa tseiwi fela baagi ba ntse ba tswelela go duela ditirelo kgwedi le kgwedi, ebile ba tshosediwa ka boramolao.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:


That the House notes that on 21 November 2023 the law house took a resolution to close the apartheid Israel

embassy in South Africa in light of the continued killing of women and children, land dispossession and bombing of hospitals in Gaza by the apartheid Israel.


Further notes that the National Assembly came together in its majority and pledged solidarity to the people of Palestine who are currently experiencing a hectic cleansing and genocide at the hands of the terrorist state of Israel.

I acknowledge that the motion to close the Israel embassy was introduced by the Commander-In-Chief and the President of the EFF, Julius Sello Malema.

Recognise that the motion was supported by the ANC, NFP, Al Jama-ah, ATM and the PAC.


Further recognise that a total of 248 Members of Parliament voted in favour of the motion against a ... [Inaudible.] ... 91, who voted against.


As South Africans we know that the resolution to close the Israel embassy until the cease fire, the ... [Inaudible.] ... is long overdue.


From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.


I so move.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, maybe just to make a comment there, having listened to what hon Motsamai has just said. That notices of motion ... [Inaudible.] ... over a long period of time.



Notices of Motion, Ntate [Mr] Motsamai, should be shorter. Only Motions with Notice should take a different form.



So, we do plead with the request and the Whips of the various parties to ensure that members and delegates are familiar with this approach.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: [Sound breaking.]




Mr I NTSUBE: We can’t hear her, Chair. We can’t hear, Chair. We can’t.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause, you are not audible. Just try again.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I rise on behalf of EFF that ... I’m speaking ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, proceed!




Ms M O MOKAUSE: I rise of behalf of the EFF that ... [Inaudible.] ... that as is the lack of water, sewer spilling

... other parts of Free State, Sol pla ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause, we have lost you.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m here, Chairperson. I’m here. And ANC people are disrupting me ... [Sound glitch.]



Mr I NTSUBE: We are unable to hear, Chair. We can’t hear, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause, please proceed.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

That the House debates the shortages of water in the areas of Sol Plaatjie in the Northern Cape, the sewer spillages, lack of proper sanitation in Mangaung in the Free State, as this hampers on the livelihoods of our people.



I so move.



Ms N NDONGENI: Chair, I hereby move on behalf of the African National Congress that in its next sitting:



That the Council debates accelerating and expanding access to early childhood development, to ensure improvement of their quality as well as strengthening the upskilling of early childhood development, ECD, practitioners.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Why are these ANC people fighting like this?




Ms E NKOSI: We are not fighting; our hands are up. That’s it.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: You’re disrupting a peaceful sitting.

Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the African National Congress that in its next sitting:


That the Council debates accelerating the comprehensive student funding model for higher education as an instrument also geared at reaching out to students who fall outside current National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, criteria, particularly the missing middle.



Ms B M BARTLETT: Chair, can I please proceed without a video because I’m worried about my network. Can I proceed, Chair? Chair, I hereby move on behalf of the African National Congress that in its next sitting:



That the Council debates the development of harsh, strict measures to combat the growing kidnapping-for-ransom tendencies in South Africa.



Chairperson, sorry for a disturbance.







(Draft Resolution)

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chair, I think you would like this one. On behalf of the Democratic Alliance I hereby move without notice:


That this Council-




(1) congratulates the learners of Park Primary School that recently contested the 2023 Astro quiz, with not just one, but two teams and scooped the first and the second prizes in the Western Cape and also got place second in South Africa;


(2) notes their success was just not obtained overnight, but through hard work over many years that also translated to accolades achieved since 2015 when they won the Western Cape and place sixth nationally;



(3) also notes that in 2017 they came second in the Western Cape and nationally;


(4) from 2018 to 2021, they were the three-time Western Cape winners and twice national winners as well as place second in the Western Cape last year;

(5) notes that the Mossel Bay mayor recently conveyed his gratitude for the phenomenal success and the positive image the school generates for themselves, but also the greater Mossel Bay;


(6) commends the learners for building their own legacies, but they couldn’t have done it without the dedicated teachers that goes above and beyond to invest in them;



(7) conveys special thanks to them, principal Dan du Toit, Dr Andre Leonard, Ms Marna Engelbrecht and Mr Flippie Schutte;



(8) more importantly, commends the eight learners, namely, Wikus Smit, Drehan Coetzee, Anna Janse van Rensburg, Kyla Albertyn, Livia Gericke, Alexa Alberts, Monique Bonner and Kanu Potgieter, we are excited by your achievements;



(9) even more so acknowledges that with the potential you hold within you to invest back in our country, you are however more than just ambassadors for your school, your town and your province, as a team

together with your teachers you are laying the foundation of what can be in a country where an insistence on excellence is not always adhered to, you are planting the seeds that will grow into the forest; and



(10) hope and wish well in establishing the school and the town as a centre of excellence when it comes to many things, but in this case specifically to science, they do not always get the attention it deserves in our country, keep working and keep inspiring.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)




Mr E Z NJADU: Good afternoon, hon Chairperson and members. I hereby move on behalf of the African National Congress without notice:

That the Council-




(1) welcomes the allocation of 15-year fishing rights to

62 small-scale fishing co-operatives with a total membership of 3 850 in the Western Cape;



(2) recalls that historically these communities faced systematic exclusion due to past injustices, which hindered their participation in fishing operations;


(3) believes that due to their inclusion into the formal Western Cape fishing industry, the fishing co- operatives will promote employment and economic development in fishing communities, as well as support food security, and decriminalise traditional fishing; and



(4) urges the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment and other relevant stakeholders to support the sector’s growth and development so that this project thrives in the value chain of the fishing industry.



Thank you very much, Chair.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)




Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Chairperson, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance I hereby move without notice:


That the Council-




(1) congratulates yachtswoman, Kirsten Neuschafer, from Gqeberha for being named female 2023 Rolex World Sailor of the Year at an awards ceremony, held last week in Malaga, Spain;



(2) notes with pride that earlier in the year, Kirsten was the first woman to finish in the solo Golden Globe race and subsequently beat out three finalists to the award;

(3) notes that earlier this year, she spent 233 days at sea, not allowed to use any equipment or any navigational tools or receive outside help;


(4) acknowledges that she did not only used her skills and knowledge of navigation together with the help of the sun and the stars, but she also put South Africa on the map;



(5) also acknowledges that it is even more commendable that during her solo trip, she steered off course to aid another sailor, whose yacht had sunk in the Southern Indian Ocean, showing that the ubuntu spirit even in the wide-open ocean is alive; and


(6) conveys our gratitude to her for being an example to so many and wish her many further success and accolades whilst showcasing the South African spirit.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



(Draft Resolution)




Ms C VISSER: Hon Chair, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance I hereby move without notice:


That this Council -




(1) notes with concern the inability of the Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality to comply with the constitutional obligations as a water and sanitation authority to deliver bulk water and sanitation to the towns, townships and villages of five municipalities in its their jurisdiction;



(2) recognises that the administrative leadership and top structure officials are not responding to reported water shortages due to pumps being removed, electrical cables faults, water pumps removed and not replaced, and water leakages flooding the environment unabated;


(3) acknowledges the incapacity of the administration unable to deliver a sewer service with equipment that is capacitated to deliver a viable service;

(4) be concerned about the unabated, untreated raw sewer flooding towns without sewer reticulation contaminating the environment as part of their management; and


(5) finally requests an urgent intervention in the capacity, ability, and competency of the administration to deliver services they are mandated to deliver.



Motion not agreed to.







(Draft Resolution)




Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chairperson, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance I hereby move without notice:


That the Council-



(1) notes that the notorious Long Tom Pass which over the past has led to many accidents, once again so such an accident;

(2) also notes that on 11 November 2023, just after 04:00 a driver of a lumber truck was unable to slow down and missed the emergency sandpit;


(3) further notes that the driver of this truck was able to veer to the left at the entrance to Lydenburg and was able to plough into the palisades at B B Auto Garage, and was fortunate to emerge without any serious injuries;



(4) notes that the accident occurred just a little more than two years after another truck ploughed through Lydenburg causing major damage to stationary vehicles and furthermore claimed the lives of two young people;



(5) further notes that mandatory pit stops on the pass would be of benefit to heavy vehicle drivers, as their lives can be saved as well as the lives of road users in Lydenburg; and


(6) finally, recognises that once again makes an urgent call is being made to the member of the executive council, MEC, of Roads and Transport in the

Mpumalanga legislature to investigate the possibility of more mandatory stops on the Long Tom Pass to force heavy vehicles to halt.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





(Draft Resolution)




Mr S F DU TOIT: House Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –




(1) notes that the Maquassi Hills municipal areas that includes Leeudoringstad, Makwassi and Wolmaransstad have been struggling with water supply issues for months;


(2) further notes that certain areas have been without water for days on end, and that constant load

shedding and faulty pumps are contributing to the problem;


(3) recognises that this House have been informed on this water supply issue in this municipal area by means of motions as early as March this year and previously, and also in consultation with the provincial legislature on previous occasions; and



(4) calls for urgent intervention is required since reservoir levels are very low, and that people are going without water in this scorching heat wave that the North West Province is experiencing.



I so move.




Motion not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)




Ms A D MALEKA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –




(1) commends the police in Mpumalanga for the job well done in arresting a 33-year-old driver after 23 foreign nationals, Pakistani and Bangladeshi nationals were found in his taxi;



(2) notes that the foreign nationals who were found in his vehicle had their passports, but they were not sent, and others did not have their documents;


(3) further notes that on Monday 13 November 2023, the intelligence driving disruptive operation conducted by the South African Police Service, SAPS, Nelspruit-based crime intelligence and highway patrol units along the N4 and R38 roads after they have received a tip-off from a reliable source about a white Toyota Quantum transporting passengers suspected to be undocumented foreign nationals;



(4) recognises that all suspects were detained pending their first court appearance at Barberton District Court;

(5) recalls that the driver was arrested on charges of contravening the Trafficking in Persons Act 7 of 2013;


(6) believes that more arrests are imminent as the investigation continues to ascertain those behind human trafficking; and



(7) calls and support for harsh measures against undocumented immigrants involved in criminal activities in the country or in cross-border crimes.



I so move.




Motion not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr M I RAYI: House Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –



(1) welcomes Quarterly Labour Force Survey results which shows that the number of employed persons increased by 399,000 to 16,7 million in the third quarter of 2023 compared to 16,3 million in the second quarter of 2023;



(2) notes that the result also show a decrease of 0,9% in the number of unemployed people during the third quarter compared to the quarter two of 2023;


(3) further notes that the quarterly labour force survey noticeable increase in employment and decrease in unemployment in the third quarter is an encouraging and positive step for our nation’s labour force;



(4) recognises that the increase in employment and decrease in unemployment gives hope to the people who are going through tough times;



(5) further recognises that the findings are a testament for social compact between government, private sector and civil society is starting to bear fruits and progress in addressing unemployment and fostering employment growth; and

(6) supports initiatives that encourage investment, stimulate economic activity, and all which contribute to sustained job creation.


I so move. Thank you, Chair.




Motion not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)




Ms S SHAIKH: House Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –



(1) commends the South Africans who have heeded the clarion call to register for the upcoming 2024 national and provincial elections on 18 to 19 November 2023;


(2) notes that 2,9 million South Africans interacted with the electoral commission during the voter registration weekend;

(3) further notes that the majority of voters visited voting stations to register, update their details, and moreover, a total of 196 511 voters used the online portal to do the same;


(4) recognises that the eligible citizens registering for the first time were 568 374, thus, accounting for 19,57% of total registration activity;



(5) acknowledges the growing interest amongst the youth vote, as young people aged between 16 and 29 account for 78,31% of new voters, and with young women dominating that count; and



(6) thank all South Africans who heeded the call to register for the 2024 national and provincial elections and call on those who have not registered, to do so.



I so move. Thank you, hon Chair.




Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




(Draft Resolution)






Mr M S MOLETSANE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council –




(1) notes that this past Sunday on 19 November 2023, the Mamelodi Sundowns Ladies Team defeated the Moroccan Sporting Club, Casablanca, by three-zero in the final of the Confederation of African Football, CAF, Women Champions League;



(2) also notes that the Sundowns Ladies Team reached the CAF finals three times consecutively;


(3) acknowledges that the Sundowns Ladies Team is winning the cup for the second time;

(4) further acknowledges that the team had a perfect run during this year’s campaign as they were unbeaten in their group matches; and


(5) congratulates the Mamelodi Ladies Team for representing us well, and also for their dedication and hard work on the pitch and for bringing the cup home.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Mr I NTSUBE: Chairperson, I was covered by hon Njadu on her motion. Thanks.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –

(1) notes that on 11 November 2023, the Border Management Authority, BMA Border Guards at Kosi Bay port of entry, intercepted stolen state property which was en route to Mozambique;


(2) also notes that amongst the stolen properties, were


52 streetlights belonging to Ethekwini Metropolitan Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal;



(3) further notes that the BMA, with the assistance of the Hawks and Durban Metro Police, arrested two Mozambicans who were charged with possession of stolen goods, including damaging essential infrastructure; and


(4) congratulates the BMA guards, working with Hawks and Durban Metro Police, for the sterling work and encourage them to be more vigilant in the coming festive season as these criminal syndicates will escalate their nefarious actions.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





(Draft Resolution)



Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –



(1) notes that the Midvaal Local Municipality recently held a Youth Summit on 17 November 2023;



(2) also notes that the Youth Summit was aimed at putting young people in contact with potential employers as well as with people and organisations assisting young people to best position themselves to get jobs;


(3) acknowledges that the event was attended by various stakeholders, including government departments, youth agencies, NGOs, private companies and higher learning institutions;

(4) also acknowledges that the event was attended by over 1,000 young people who will benefit from this initiative; and


(5) congratulates the DA-led Midvaal Local Municipality for creating meaningful engagements with young people with the intention of linking them with the real providers of jobs who are caring enough to break down barriers to build a better South Africa.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





(Draft Resolution)





Mnu M R BARA: Sihlalo...





... I move without notice:

That the Council –




(1) congratulates the pride of not just the Mossel Bay boxing fraternity but also the municipality, Mr Bulelani Ngondeka, for the remarkable and ongoing record he is showcasing as number one featherweight boxer in the southwestern district;



(2) notes that Mr Ngondeka has been unbeaten for the last seven years;


(3) also notes that in 2019 Mr Ngondeka turned professional, and when he is not working hard to protect the citizens of Mossel Bay as a law enforcement officer, he is hard at work in the ring training to achieve his goal of becoming a world champion;



(4) appreciates that his record currently reads eight fights, five wins, three by technical knockout which places him second in the Western Cape and within top 10 nationally;

(5) acknowledges that while fighting out of the Garden Route Boxing Academy under the watchful eyes of Masimphiwe Qatu and Mncedisi Ngqekeza, he is moving up the ranks and continues to inspire the young generations with both his actions inside and outside the ring; and



(6) wishes him well on his journey and thanks him for being an inspiration to the younger generation.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Thank you for noting me. I refer to Rule 46 – Movement in Chamber: A delegate may not pass between the officer providing and the delegate addressing the Chair. Once again Chair, when Mr Bara was speaking, Mr Dangor saw it fit to walk in front of Mr Bara between himself and yourself. He is a serial offender, Chair that is not acceptable. Please draw that into your attention. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is noted. I am not sure if he is a serious serial offender. [Laughter.]


Mr M DANGOR: I may be a serial offender in walking in front of somebody, but I am not a serial offender in oppression of other people.






(Draft Resolution)




Ms N TAFENI: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:




That the Council –




(1) Notes the schools that are still using mud houses in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo provinces;



(2) That when will the department of Basic Education demolish those buildings and build new structures?;


I so move.

Motion not agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Tafeni, unfortunately, your Motion without Notice sounds like a Motion of Notice and therefore, will not be considered given that we have gone past dealing with Notices of Motion.



Ms B M BARTLETT: Chair, I have already raised a motion as the Motion of Notice.






(Draft Resolution)




Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council –




(1) notes the ongoing crimes which includes car hijackings in the provinces of Gauteng, Mpumalanga and Limpopo;

(2) notes that the inability of the SA Police Service worsens these crimes in these areas;


(3) argues that these crimes are committed with the full information that the SA Police Service is nowhere to be found in South African streets or borders;



(4) charges that the inability of the SA Police Service to strengthen crime intervention places South Africans at an extremely vulnerable situation;


(5) calls on the Minister of Police, Mr Bheki Cele to strengthen policing in South Africa or relieve himself of his responsibilities and;



(6) notes that it is clear that he failed as a Minister of Police.



I so move.




Motion not agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



(Considering of Bill and of Report thereon)




Ms T C MODISE: Hon Chairperson, let me greet hon members that are in the House. Hon Chairperson, allow me to present the report of the Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy on Agricultural Product Standards Amendment Bill, dated 14 November 2023.


The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development briefed the committee on 13 June 2023 on the Agricultural Product Standards Amendment Bill. The Bill was initially referred to the committee on 21 February 2023 as a section 76 Bill. The committee called for written comments on the Bill, while public hearings were held by provincial legislatures. At the end of this engagement process, the negotiating mandate meetings were held by the committee together with provincial legislatures on 26 September 2023.



The Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy, having deliberated on and considered the subject of the Agricultural Product Standards Amendment Bill, referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a section 76 Bill, reports that it agrees to the Bill without amendments.

Hon Chairperson, eight provinces support the Bill, whereas one province, being North West, abstained. We therefore request the House to adopt the Bill. I thank you, hon Chair.


Debate concluded.




Declarations of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the DA supports the Bill but wants us to focus on the following: that the integrity of self-regulation of quality products is already being successfully implemented within the system before the Bill. The ANC’s political indecisiveness and cadre deployment ... [Inaudible.] ... wasted nine years in which timeous regulations such as inspection, services on grain and oil seeds would have improved the quality of products to the benefit of the industry and society as a whole. The ANC government successfully destroyed Onderstepoort Biological

Products by failing to produce vaccines for 10 years, creating extensive loss of livestock and threatening food security. I thank you.


Question put - That the Bill be agreed to.

An HON MEMBER: North West vote in favour, Chair. I don’t know why we are abstaining.


Ms T C MODISE: Hon Chair, let me clarify, the North West’s mandate is abstaining.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Now, there we have it, two positions from one province. How do we solve this problem? I am told that the mandate submitted was that of abstention. So, North West abstains.



I am told by the table here that Limpopo has not submitted its mandate. Can we revert to Limpopo?



An HON MEMBER: Limpopo submitted its mandate.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It submitted, yes.




Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, Michalakis, on what point are you rising?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, the question of the North West voting in two different ways, it’s not just a thing that should be shrugged off and confirmed by the table because it is the member who voted out of line with the mandate of the province. It is contravening the mandate on the Act. There is a specific way in which provinces should vote and there should be consequences for members who stand up and vote contrary to what their mandate from the province is. I would please like clarity from you as to what are the consequences for members in this House who vote contrary to the mandate of their provinces. Thank you.


Mr T C DODOVU: On a point of order, Chairperson, it’s Dodovu here.







Mr T C DODOVU: Yes, in light of the fact that there were two positions from the North West, I have decided to rescind mine, and will follow up with the province and engage on this matter. I don’t know what hon Michalakis is talking about because as matters stands now, hon Modise has clarified it.

There is one position, and the position is abstention even if

I don’t agree with it. This is where the province ... [Inaudible.] ... I don’t know what ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sure the comment is noted. Hon members, voting is now closed. Before we proceed, Michalakis had his hand raised. On what point are you rising, Michalakis?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, despite the point that hon Dodovu made, if it wasn’t for the other member who pointed it out ... my question is: On how many occasions do members vote on a specific way without verifying what the mandate is? If the other member from the North West did not point it out, you would have been none the wiser, and you would have been in contravention of the Act. It’s not just a question of a member making an excuse saying I am sorry, there was a second mandate. It’s a serious thing, and they nearly put you, as the Chairperson, in a position where you accepted a specific vote contrary to the mandate in the Act. So, I honestly would like you ... it’s not necessary for today, but I would like to ask you to come back with a ruling at the next sitting and not delayed indefinitely as many other rulings are and give us clarity on what the consequences are of members, specifically provincial Whips not making sure what their mandate is. That

is what they get paid for, being provincial Whips. They should know what their mandate is from their provinces, and they shouldn’t be putting you as the Chairperson in that position. Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. We note the point. We may have to come back to this later. But I have been assured by the table that they always verify the mandates. Hon Ngwenya?



Ms W NGWENYA: Chair, as a member of this committee of hon Modise, I would like to support our chairperson on the mandate of the eight provinces, and the one province that abstained. I think the chairperson has clarified that, Chair. Can we close this matter as it is according to the report of the chairperson? Thank you.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Chair.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who wants to speak? Hon Mokause.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point are you rising first?


Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. What’s your point of order?




Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, it is extremely out of order what Mma Ngwenya is doing. We have heard the report presented by hon Modise ... [Interjections.]


An HON MEBER: What is the point of order? We want the point of order.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... all provinces have an opportunity to vote either in favour or not in favour. So, it is honestly out of order for her to dictate for provinces.



An HON MEMBER: She is not.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: If Gauteng want to object, they are at liberty to do it. So, why are other provinces denied an opportunity to either object or support? It is out of order. We can’t be

bullied by the ANC. All of us here are not ANC. All of us here are not thugs.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, if you can take a moment to listen to what I am going to say. We do have the final mandate from the North West which is dated 31 October 2023. This mandate is signed by hon SR Dantjie, the North West provincial legislature Speaker. Voting is now closed.






Bill agreed to.




Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, just on a point of clarity because we had two contradicting versions of Limpopo. The table said there is no ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is an official mandate signed by the speaker of the North West provincial legislature

... [Interjections.]



Mr C B SMIT: I am talking about Limpopo. I am referring to Limpopo because the table referred ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s hear you on Limpopo.




Mr C B SMIT: Yes, Chair. The table mentioned that there is no mandate from Limpopo, while the Chair said there is a mandate. So, there is no clarity.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We also have the final mandate from Limpopo legislature, dated 6 November 2023, signed by the Speaker of Limpopo provincial legislature, hon RR Molapo.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order, Chair.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order?




Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you for indulging me again. Chairperson, as a member of this House, I am very concerned, what is the job of provincial Whips if they cannot get their mandates. If another member from the province knows what’s going on and the provincial Whips doesn’t themselves. If the House Whip was in the House for a change doing his job, that might not have perhaps happened, but I do want to request you, in the interest of the integrity of this House to please take this up with the Chief Whip of the House so that the

provincial Whips know as much as the rest of us. Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s take it as noted. We will now proceed to the Second Order.





Ms T C MODISE: Hon Chair, let me present the Report of the Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral Resources and Energy on the National Veld and Forest Fire Amendment Bill, B24B-2021, National Assembly - section 76, dated 14 November 2023. The Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment briefed the committee on 14 March 2023 on the National Veld and Forest Fire Amendment Bill, B24B-2021.



The Bill was initially referred to the committee on 21 February 2023 as section 76 Bill. The committee called ... [Inaudible.] ... comments while the public hearings were held by the provincial legislatures. At the end of this engagement process the negotiating mandate meetings were held by the

committee together with the provincial legislatures on 26 September 2023. The Select Committee on Land Reform, Mineral Resources and Energy having deliberated and considered the subject of the National Veld and Forest Fire Amendment Bill, B24B-2021, National Assembly section 76, referred to it as classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as section 76 Bill.


The report agreed to the Bill, B24B-2021, without amendment. Hon Chair, seven provinces supported the Bill. KwaZulu-Natal did not support. The Eastern Cape did not send their mandate whereas the committee postponed three meetings waiting for the submission from the Eastern Cape. Therefore, we request the House to accept this Bill. Thank you very much.



Declaration of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, although the Western Cape supports this Bill, there are serious concerns not only raised by the Western Cape. The most pressing concern is that this Amendment Bill seeks to delete that those with powers to arrest, including traditional leaders, must show proof of their ... [Interjections.] ... appointment. Although the department focused on the fact that the period ...

[Interjections.] ... the Northern Cape ... [Interjections.]




Although the department focused on the fact that the appropriate and thorough training will be done, the concern remains that these powers will be abused depending on various circumstances and motives. The Western Cape would encourage all the committees of all spheres of government to maintain oversight and keep a keen eye on the implementation of this Bill to address these concerns. I thank you.



Debate concluded.




Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.











Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Mr E Z NJADU: Hon Chairperson, the report of the Select Committee on Health and Social Services on the Ratification of the Treaty for the establishment of the African Medicine Agency dated 14 November 2023. The Select Committee on Health and Social Services here forth, the committee, having considered the ratification of the treaty for the establishment of the African Medicines Agency, AMA, reports as follows.



The establishment of the AMA was first discussed at the meeting of the African Ministers of Health. The meeting was jointly convened by the African Union, AU Commission, and the World Health Organization, WHO, in Rwanda, Angola in April 2014.



The African Union, AU, Assembly of Heads of State adopted the treaty at the 32nd Ordinary Session of 10 to 11 February 2019 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Rwanda was selected to host the headquarters of the AMA by the AU Executive Council at a meeting held in Lusaka, Zambia in July 2022.

The AMA aims to enhance the capacity of state parties and AU recognises Regional Economic Communities, RECs. In addition, it aims to regulate medical products to improve access to quality, safe and effective medical products in the African continent.



The AMA’s mission is to coordinate and strengthen ongoing initiatives to humanise medicines regulation, promote cooperation, and mutual recognition of regulatory decisions. This includes conducting regulatory oversight of selected medical products and providing technical guidance to state parties and RECs.



This will be done through the pulling together expertise and capacities and strengthening networking for optimal use of resources from across the continent. AMA intends to develop improved access to quality assured medical products. Further, AMA plans to be more visible by facilitating the following core activities, safety monitoring, market surveillance, marketing authorisations, oversight of clinical trials, coordination of quality control, laboratory services, and joint assessment and good manufacturing practice inspections.

The role players to achieve its mandate, AMA intends to work with technical partners such WHO, European Medicines Agency, EMA, and the United States Food and Drug Administration, USFDA.


This will help mitigate the effects of the coronavirus COVID-


19 pandemic by allowing the free movement of pharmaceuticals and personal protective equipment, PPE. There will be a consistent voice on regulatory issues, standard and guidelines for quality, safety, and efficiency that will aid with reducing the prevalence of substandard and falsified medicines and vaccines.



South Africa can participate in the African Continent Free Trade Area, which will anchor the pharmaceutical initiative of localised production, pooled procurement, quality frameworks and parliamentary process.



The ratification for the establishment of the AMA Treaty was tabled in Parliament on the 14th of February 2023, and referred to the committee on the 26th of October 2023. The committee received a briefing on the AMA Treaty from the Department of Health on the 14th of November 2023.

The committee recommended that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996 approves the AMA Treaty report to be considered. Thank you very much, Chair.


Debate concluded.




Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chairperson Amos Masondo, thanks for the opportunity. I have the pleasure to present the policy statement for the NCOP ratification of the African Union

charter on the principles and values of decentralisation, local governance and local development`. We are today as hon members of the Select Committee on Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, Water, Sanitation and Human Settlements asking the NCOP to ratify the African Charter on The Values and Principles of Decentralisation, Local Governance And Local Development In Terms Of Section 231 subsection 2 of Our Constitution.



Chairperson and members of the NCOP the African Union adopted the African Charter on the Values and Principles of Decentralisation, Local Governance and Local Development in 2014. This charter that is today before the NCOP, is as a result of the full powers accorded to the Minister of the Department of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs by President Cyril Matamela Ramaphosa to sign, subject to ratification by Parliament meaning the National Assem bly and the national Council of Province, in compliance with authorised powers the Minister of the Department of Co- Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs tabled the charter to Parliament in terms of section 232 of the Constitution for parliamentary ratification and referred it to the Select Committee on Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs for consideration and reporting.

We have noted as members of the select committee during our engagement with the Department of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that the charter seeks to promote decentralisation for improving the livelihoods of people on the African continent. This charter is the first to provide a decentralisation framework or model framework for local government for the African continent.


Collectively, we have also noted that in terms of the principles, values and objects of the charter it complies with our Constitution, it complies with local government legalisation as well as the district development model in terms of planning, co-ordination and community participation.



Article 15 of the charter prescribes that local authorities integrate gender, youth and disability issues in the overall process of formulating policy, planning for development and providing services as well as implementing, monitoring and evaluating development programmes and projects.



The local governments and the local authorities in general in terms of this charter are also required to promote and ensure that equal and effective participation of women, youth and people with disabilities is happening in public life, in

leadership and management positions on all matters relating to local governance and local development.


The objective of the charter also on decentralisation as provided for in this preamble, is to promote the values and principles of decentralisation, local governance and local development in Africa as a means for improving the livelihoods of all its people. It provides a decentralisation framework which member country should adhere to when drafting an implementing laws and regulations which relate to decentralisation in their respective countries. The decentralisation framework also covers a range of aspects from powers and functions of local government to the fiscal aspects as well as the supervision and co-operation measures.



Like most international instruments, member states of the African Union, AU, will only be legally bound by the charter once they have ratified it.



Hon Chair of the NCOP, having considered the principles and values of the charter and noted its compliance with our Constitution and local government laws of our Republic, we are therefore recommending to the NCOP this afternoon to ratify the African Charter on the Principles and Values of

Decentralisation, Local Governance and Local Development in terms of section 231 subsection 2 of the 1996 Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. I thank you.


Debate concluded.




Declarations of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the Western Cape welcomes the African Charter on the Values and Principles of Decentralisation, Local Government and Local Development dated

7 November 2023. This is a step in the right direction and embraces the fundamentals of federalism. It must however be exposed how this ANC government speaks with a forked tongue by saying one thing and doing the opposite. A good example is the district development model that clearly contradicts this charter by trying to centralise power and decision-making. This is evident in the attempt to steal away powers of decision-making on, for example, finances away from local government and allowing national government to dictate those decisions.


We call on this government to fulfil its commitment as signed in this charter by letting go of centralissing control and

letting go of this bizarre contradicting obsession with the district development model, DDM.


The Western Cape also call on the national government to devolve some of its powers to the province, City of Cape Town and other capable municipalities respectively in relation to energy, police services, railway services, harbours and other necessary services that will serve South Africans better. The Western Cape supports.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, we are a unitary state. We are a country governed by the rule of law in terms of what must happen. All the schedules of our Constitution, specifically schedule 4 and schedule 5 of the Constitution, prescribe which powers are allocated to the nation al government. They also equally allocate powers and functions which are allocated to provinces as well as municipalities. We believe that this is not about federalism, it is not about attaching any code or any ideology in terms of what need to happen, but it is about stabilising local government, it is about creating a favourable climate in which decentralisation of power would happen and without attaching any political connotation in terms of what must happen.

We believe that the schedules as provided in our Constitution are quite sufficient. They spell out inclusions what is the role of each sphere of government in respect of Chapter 3 of our Constitution which says, all the spheres of government shall be interdependent, shall be distinct and shall be interrelated. Therefore, any notion that suggest that you need to devolve powers to any specific sphere of government without amending the Constitution, it is not only irrational, it is not only unacceptable, but it is in conflict with the later and the spirit of our Constitution. It is on those bases that as the ANC we support this ratification that decentralisation must happen in order to ensure local governance and local development that is quite needed. No province in this country shall be immune from that process, and no province shall regard itself as an island that seeks to perpetuate any idea or agenda that is contrary to the later and the spirit of our Constitution.



As the ANC from the North West we support this particular ratification of the charter of the Act of the African Union, AAU, on decentralisation, local governance and local development. Hon Chair, thank you very much.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.















Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, greetings to you again, greetings to the Chief Whip, the House Chairpersons, the Deputy Minister of Public Enterprises, MECs present, special and permanent delegates. Hon Chairperson, I am honoured to present the Report of the Joint Standing Committee on

Financial Management of Parliament to this noble House on behalf of the core Chairperson the hon Dikeledi Mahlangu.


The committee deliberated on the performance of Parliament in the fourth quarter of 2022-23 financial year presented to the committee by the Secretary to Parliament. This report is partly the outcome of the Parliament strategic plan for 2019- 2024 which focus on 2022-23 annual performance plan, APP, and budget.



The committee observed and put forward to this House the recommendation that it considered worth noting for implementation by Parliament.



Hon members, Parliament’s mission is to represent the people and to ensure government by the people by fulfilling its constitutional functions of passing laws and overseeing the actions of government. To this end, Parliament conducts its business in line with the values of openness, responsiveness, accountability, teamwork, integrity and professionalism.


Parliament identified only two strategic priorities for the Sixth Parliament that are to strengthen oversight and to enhance public involvement in Parliament’s activities. In

order to achieve these strategic activities, Parliament has to improve committee oversight work in relation to the budget cycle in particular through allowing more time in parliamentary programme for oversight activities and encouraging committees to undertake such activities jointly.



Parliament also improve the effectiveness of public hearings through greater public participation, expanding public education, better dissemination of information, effective use of broadcasting, technology and social media. The use of more official languages and encouraging committees to undertake joint public hearings.



Hon Chairperson, Parliament succeeded in meeting all 11 quarterly targets in quarter four of 2022-23 financial year, including the overarching activities such as tributes to Dr F N Ginwala, the former Speaker of the National Assembly after her passing on 12 January 2023. A debate in the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, on interprovincial red tape reduction that is transforming the service delivery value- chain for faster growth and development. And a debate in the National Assembly, NA, on the electricity crises in South Africa and how to address it.

Hon members, Parliament processed 10 Bills in quarter four of2022-23 financial year which include the Prevention of Big Crimes Bill, the Housing Consumer Protection Bill and the Electoral Amendment Bill. Eleven public hearings were held in relation to amongst others the Basic Education Amendment Bill and the Climate Change Bill.



Hon members, the spending on direct charges amounts to R162,1 million or 170% of the fourth quarter allocation which amounts to R95,6 million. The overpayment was as a result of the payment of loss office and exit gratuity to members. In line with the financial management of Parliament and the

Provincial Legislature Act, of which the overspent amount will be refunded by the National Revenue Fund.


Hon Chairperson, the committee noticed that the process of petitions is an important mechanism for public participation and efforts to streamline the petitions process were noted. Therefore the committee recommends that the petitions process be automated and streamlined to allow for more expeditious processing of petitions. The committee also recommends that Parliament investigate the feasibility of the select committee receiving petitions directly from the Chairperson of the NCOP instead of via the Select Committee on Petitions and

Undertakings. However, should it be found to be feasible, the Rules Committee should consider amending the parliamentary rules in this regard accordingly.


Hon members, the committee notes progress made in the development of oversight monitoring and tracking mechanisms. This intervention is welcomed as it will assist in ensuring government accountability. The committee recommends that a comprehensive oversight monitoring and tracking mechanism be finalised and put in place before the Seventh Parliamentary term.



Hon Chairperson, the committee notes with concern the underspending reported in quarter four. Underspending has a potential to undermine Parliament’s negotiation for a more appropriate budget because Parliament did not underspent due to money given to it. The underspending results amongst others the vacant positions that take long to be filled. The committee recommends that Parliament addresses this institutional weakness that contribute to underspending including the finalisation of the organisational realignment project and the filling of all the vacancies within the prescribed timeframes.

The committee notes with concern that Parliament has not yet filled the long vacant head of Parliamentary Protection Services position. This is no longer the case now, this position has been filled, hon members. This post is critical to the security strategy and arrangement on the precinct.

Therefore the committee recommended that the head of the Parliamentary Protection Services be filled as I already indicated that is has now been addressed.



Hon Chairperson, let me pause by appealing to Parliament executive authority that it should provide with the response to the recommendations on this report within 30 days of the adoption of this report by both Houses that is the National Assembly and the NCOP.


Hon Chairperson, let me conclude by also presenting the report on the Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament on the performance of Parliament in the first quarter of 2023-24 financial year. In this quarter of 2023-24 financial year, Parliament reported that it adopted a new reporting methodology of which the new macro framework for Parliament has been designed to ensure a Parliament that is transformative, responsive and collaborative through effective stakeholder engagement. Therefore Parliament administration

will bring about a series of improvements to its reporting framework to align it to the new macro framework which focuses on Parliament’s outcomes and impact.


Hon Chairperson, Parliament’s administration is of the view that a new reporting framework will focus on Parliament’s transformative work that will measure the extent to which Parliament impacts the daily lives of the people in South Africa. The impact of Parliament on people’s lives will be measured against the National Development plan, NDP, impact indicators which relate to the poverty alleviation, unemployment reduction and inequality eradication, therefore to assist in measuring outcomes indicators of Parliament against the NDP impact on people’s lives. These indicators will be established in respect of Parliament’s oversight work with a specific focus on the Medium Term Strategic Framework indicators that are tabled in Parliament focussing specifically on the identified oversight priorities.

Performance reporting will include performance indicators which relate to oversight priorities. Key development plans and how Parliament has impacted the quality of life of the people in respect of economic empowerment, education and skills development, access to quality health care,

infrastructure development, social cohesion and environmental stability.


Hon members, Parliament intends to develop a broadcasting strategy for the Seventh Parliament in 2023-24. Therefore, in the first quarter, a draft of the strategy was to be circulated after consultation with various stakeholders who would have tackled this. However, this target was not met and the failure to do so was ascribed to the delay in the Public Broadcasting Bill.



In 2023-24 financial year, Parliament also intends to implement the restoration of the buildings that were affected by fire in 2022 on the parliamentary precinct. Therefore, in the first quarter of 2023-24 financial year, Parliament aim to approve the restoration implementation plan, establish safe access routes, perform asset verification and renovate offices in in the 90 Plein Street Building for those affected by the fire.



While the first two targets were met, the renovation of offices was delayed owing to the contractor who had won the bid withdrawing delays in securing the Permits from the

Department of Employment and Labour and delays in receiving security clearance for subcontractors.


Hon Chairperson, in respect of professionalising the parliamentary service, the administration set out to develop and implement a new plan in 2023-24 financial year for the organisational realignment project to develop and implement a change management plan and to develop and implement a policy review plan.



In the first quarter, Parliament administration set out to review the realignment plan and to conduct analysis in respect of change management and policy review plans and eccentric targets were met. Parliament was moving towards outcomes and impact-driven business analytics. In 2023-24 financial year, aiming to develop a big data and an analytic implementation plan. The target for the first quarter was to assess structured data and develop a data management policy and Parliament met this target and succeeded in developing a policy which has been submitted for review.



Hon members, Parliament was working towards developing and implementing an oversight priority model for the Seventh Parliament to ensure focus oversight. In the period under

review, the administration was to establish a multidisciplinary team, but this target was not met. Appointment letters for members to serve on the team were only issued in July 2023. No reason provided for not meeting this target in the first quarter.



Parliament was going to develop and implement a committee planning framework to align committee oversight focus areas. In this first quarter, the administration was to compile a research report on benchmarks for committee planning, budgeting and reporting. However, this target was not met and no reason was provided for the variants.



Hon Chairperson, in 2023-24 financial year, Parliament was going to implement a recommendation made by the commission on enquiry into allegation of state capture, corruption and fraud in the public sector including organs of state. The targets set for the first quarter was met that is a quarterly report on the implementation of the President’s plan on the recommendations of State Capture Commission was completed.

Parliament was also going to review support for constituency offices and in the period under review, the first quarter target to compile a review report of current support to such offices was met.

In 2023-24 Parliamentary Strategy and Capability to implement its international priorities which align to the national agenda will be reviewed. Parliament’s international engagement policy was to be reviewed in the first quarter. Although the draft position was available, the target for the quarter was not met. There was no reason provided for the variants between the target and the actual performance.


Hon Chairperson, the committee welcomes the new reporting framework that will focus on Parliament’s reports to live up to its constitutional obligation. Concerns were raised about the institution’s capacity to gather and analyse the data required to measure the impact of the new framework. However, the committee recommends that it should be provided with the breakdown of the resources required to ensure that Parliament administration is able to access the revised framework.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As you conclude, hon member.




Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, I have 15 minutes.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have trouble in terms of time.




Mr M I RAYI: Oh, Chairperson, I thought I had 15 minutes.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, you have half a second left.


Mr M I RAYI: Oh, because I have 15 minutes, Chairperson.




Hon Chairperson, have I exhausted my 15 minutes?




Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are done!



Oh keep quiet! I am talking to the Chairperson.




Hon Chairperson in that case I have to leave it at that because I thought I have 15 minutes. Thank you so much.







The report shall be made available to members to access it and engage with the issues reflected there in. Thank you very much, hon Rayi. We will now proceed to voting on the report.



Debate of the fifth order concluded.



Question put: That the report be adopted.

In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Debate of the sixth order concluded.



Question Put: That the Report be adopted.




In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chairperson of the NCOP, greetings to yourself and also to permanent delegate and special delegates and our leadership respectively, our House Chairs and the Chief Whip. The study tour, as you have correctly pointed out, was undertaken by the Committee on Transport, Public Service and Administration, Public service and Infrastructure together with the Select Committee on Trade and Industry, Economic Developments for Business, Development Tourism and Employment from the 3 to the 7 July 2023. The objectives were informed by the South African government’s commitment to creating a developmental state, reshaping the structure of the ... [Inaudible.] ... socio economic transformation and the provision of public infrastructure to another transport system that meets the country’s needs.



The provision of public infrastructure and reliable, efficient and affordable public transport is indeed a key requirement for both economic growth and sustaining the livelihoods of households and communities. Therefore, also an active citizenry must be able to access government services, economic opportunities and social networks within the communities.

The select committees engaged with the apex organisation for co-operatives in Germany, under the auspices of German Co- operatives and Raiffeisen Confederation to illustrate the rich of co-operatives in Germany. Ninety percent of all farmers, 65% of all craftsmen, 75% of all retailers, 90% of all big cars and butchers, and 65% of all accountants in Germany are members of a particular co-operative. The co-operatives allow its members to access credit and market and creates more favourable purchasing power.


The confederation also has a footprint in three ... [Inaudible.] ... provinces in South Africa, namely, KwaZulu- Natal, Gauteng and Eastern Cape. The confederation’s work in these provinces has included engagements with a number of stakeholders to promote and understanding of co-operatives and establishment of co-operative banks. The impact of cooperatives increase exponentially as more co-operatives are linked to each other rather than working in silos.



It is recommended that the co-operatives development support programme of the Department of Small Business Development should incorporate the learning lessons from this study tour and those factors that has contributed towards the successful operations of cooperatives in Germany. These factors include,

among others, that each co-operatives needs to be economically viable in its market, and that co-operatives should be integrated into a strong co-operative organisation with a strong and decentralised multi-level cooperative system.


The delegation also engaged with the German trade and industry which operates 60 offices internationally, including our country South Africa. The entity identifies suitable investment opportunities in Germany through export promotion, investor consulting and location marketing. The entity emphasised that the objective to attract foreign investments should be to increase the resilience of local market by complementing, re-enforcing and strengthening local value chains. The select committees were particularly interested in the Task Force Transformation Unit through which the entity’s focus has mainly on the economic transformation of refineries sites and post located in the former Eastern Germany. This focus area shows promise for collaboration during future outbound delegation tours identified for South Africa in 2024.



The entity was encouraged to extend the visit, to include delegation visit to former coal mining areas, identified areas of mutual interest, in respect to conomic transition for such areas, including possible transition to hydrogen generation

and provision. As acknowledged in the legislative sector accountability and oversight model, it is desirable for legislatures to develop conducive working ties with specialist bodies such as academic institutions. This allows members to access the most recent footing and developments in their portfolios and to be on equal level with department and stakeholders when engaging in its oversight responsibilities.


During the study tour, the select committees engaged with the City Science Lab at HafenCity University, as well as the UNITAC for cities on the application of researched development tools for infrastructure planning and stakeholder engagement.

... [Inaudible.] ... to buy their city science lab is the corporate for social infrastructure which integrates statistical and georeferenced infrastructure information to assist in identifying needs and accelerating planning processes.



The joint committees met also with Ms A Fortuin from the African Centre for Cities at the University of Cape Town. Ms Fortuin introduced the delegation to the recently launched Urban Academy, which is a collaboration between UNITAC, the United Nations Native Settlement Programme or UN Habitat, the United Nations Office for Information and Communication

Technology, and the City Science Lab. The Urban Academy focus on three research themes as follows: Transparent and participatory governance, socio special analysis, digital data and new forms of work and people-centred smart cities and service delivery.



The joint select committee has undertaken that follow-up engagement should be heard with the African Centre for Cities in respect of any research that has identified regulatory policy or legislative gaps in respect of public transport, public infrastructure and people-centred smart cities. The UNITAC Hamburg is part of it through Central Cities flagship programme of United Nations Habitat which provides strategic and technical support on digital transformation to national, regional and local governments.



Projects developed under UNITAC Hamburg includes supporting eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality Human Settlement unit in its efforts to improve that accessibility and management. The objective was to help the municipality to improve its land monitoring process and also to assist the city in automating their building making processes. The UNITAC team developed the Building and Establishment Automated Mapper, BEAM software that uses machine learning to radically accelerate the spatial

recognition of informal settlements and structure based on aerial imagery.


It is recommended that Members of Executive Councils, MINMEC should extend an invitation to the research institution to deliver a presentation about their toolkits to both MINMEC and the technical team with idea to share lessons as to how the tools may be applied in the municipal infrastructure planning and participatory process.



The study tour concluded with an engagement with the federal government’s co-ordinator for maritime and tourism. The role of the coordinator, who is based in the Economic Affairs Ministry, is to co-ordinate all measures for strengthening Germany’s competitiveness in the fields of shipbuilding, marine technology, shipping and ports.



In conclusion, the delegation also travelled between meeting in Berlin and Hamburg with a view to explore the transport system and their railway system that cut across the inter rail and Euro Rail which operates more than 250 000 kilos. The federal government co-ordinator expressed the view that while executive level relationship between South Africa and Germany is sound, there is an interest to ... [Inaudible.] ... at

legislative level. ... [Inaudible.] ... concluded that lessons must be shared on the wider programme focus on the legislative overside, and we recommend the report to the House for adoption. Thank you, Chair.


Debate concluded.




Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





Mr E Z NJADU: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, the report of the Select Committee on Health and Social Services and Select Committee on Education and Recreation of the Joint

International Study Tour to the Republic of Korea from 03 to 07 July 2023, dated the 5th of September 2023. The Select Committee on Health and Social Services and Select Committee on Education and Recreation, hereof the committee having conducted an international study tour to the Republic of South Korea from the 3 to the 7 July 2023 report as follows: The study tour to the Republic of Korea here after Korea is in line with the strategic plan of the sixth Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, 2019-24. The Committee Strategic Plan 2019-24, the Parliamentary Oversight and Accountability Model, 2012, the National Development Plan Vision, 2030 and the third United Nations Sustainable Development Goal, SDG.



The aim of the study tour was to learn the best practises in the healthcare system of the Republic of Korea by focusing on its National Health Insurance system, health care coverage, how the NHI system is working. The following institutions were visited to gather information on the Korea health care system: Ministry of Health and Welfare in Sejong City, National Health Insurance Service in Wonju City, Health Insurance Review and Assessment, Service in Wonju City and Samsung Medical Centre in Gangnum-gu.

The following institutions were visited to gather information on the Korean education system. Korean Research Institute for Vocational Education and Training in Sejong City, Haemil Elementary School in Sejong City, and the Korean Educational Development Institute in Jincheon-gun.



On the objectives of the study tour to Korea on health: To explore and learn how the government of Korea has achieved its health care coverage under the NHI system, to explore and learn how the government of Korea is funding its NHI system to the benefit of its citizens, to explore and learn how the NHI system is provided by the different stakeholders or fundamental institutions, that is the HIRA which is responsible for Korea’s health insurance evaluation and analysis service, and the NHIS which provides for the Republic of Korea’s national health insurance service. This will enable the committee to understand the mechanism of the Republic of Korea’s health system.



The objective of the study tour on education: To explore and understand the South Korea public education system. To explore and understand the South Korea maths and science education advancements.

In addition, the delegation engaged with stakeholders on the following: The funding of basic education, school structure, parental involvement in education of their children, provision of special education and special schools, pass rate in Mathematics and Physical Science, management of scholar transport, competency of teachers and lecturers, and their qualifications. How to avoid mismatch of skills - skills needed by the industry and those supplied by the Technical and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet colleges. Employment of their graduates.



Few recommendations from the committee is how the how the proposed NHI Bill will be ensured and improved healthcare system. The envisioned role the private sector will play in the rollout of NHI. Parliament through its relevant committee, should monitor the implementation of health policies and legislation, including the NHI. The Education Department should align curriculum development and skills training to the needs of industry and the economy. This will contribute to the country’s economy and the employment of graduates. This study tour composed of all members of the committee, including their support staff. The report to be considered. Thank you very much.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.




IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, hon delegates, we shall now proceed to the subject for the debate, as printed on the other paper: “Debate on the systematic destruction of state enterprises and urgent steps needed to reposition the State as the primary driver of development”. Hon members, I will now call upon hon J Magwala from the EFF to open the debate. And I would also like to recognize hon Obed, Deputy Minister of Public Enterprises, who will participate in the debate. Hon M J Magwala.





Mr M J MAGWALA: House Chairperson of the session, let me take this opportunity to greet the commander in chief, the

president, the incoming President of South Africa, hon CIC, Julius Sello Malema. Let me take this opportunity to greet the hon members, Chairperson of the session, distinguished guests, and everyone.


We’re here to debate the systematic destruction of the state enterprise and urgent steps needed to reposition the state as the primary driver of development. This is cardinal pillar number three of the EFF; “Building the state and government capacity which will lead to the abolishment of tenders and kill any chance of privatization”.



House Chairperson, we have brought this debate here because we, as the EFF are concerned by the rapid degeneration of the state enterprise in the country.



This destruction, we believe, is a deliberate attempt by the fearless puppet masters, behind the current leadership of the ANC who pulls the strings and dictate policies and programs.



House Chairperson, almost all of South African key state-owned companies are in a ... [Inaudible.] ... state, characterized by growing depths, dysfunctional management, and failure to

deliver on mandates. And this has been going on for almost a decade and a half.


All this is indicate indicative of a deep problem of political incompetency on the part of ruling elite who are not the least concerned about running the country. This situation has worsened since Mr Ranko Ramaphosa took over, power.



And let me give you a few examples. Denel, the country’s arms manufacturing company, which has been struggling to pay its workers for the past few years, reported that it made almost two billion losses, for the 2019 and 2020 financial year. This happened despite Denel have been capitalized by almost

1,8 billion, in 2019.




The entity has been receiving audit disclaimers for the past five financial years, with material concern on issues of procurements and contracts, irregular expenditure, and fruitful and wasteful expenditure. The company total assets for the 2019 and 2020 financial year were 8,1 billion, while the total liability amounted to 10,4 billion.

The Auditor-General, A G noted serious leadership failures on the part of Denel as the key driver of the entrenched dysfunctional of a company.


SA Airways, which has recently return to Airways, has been sold for a pittance to a poor defined group of people. What do we know, however, is that after years of leadership failure, Pravin Jamnadas Gordhan has put SA under business rescue in December 2019, instead of turning the company around. The business rescue practioners have been paid themselves over

200 billion, while failing to pay workers.




At the end the very same business rescue practioners could not rescue the company, giving Mr Gordhan and this administration license to do what they always wanted to do, trade off a state company for a pittance.



The SA Broadcast Cooperation is no different. It is an entity, deeply immense in the muddy pool of incompetency, maladministration, and corruption, which has not had a clean audit option in years. As things stand, there is no stability at SABC. And the entity is losing revenue for ridiculous and poor management decision.

The Transport Network, Transnet, is another of those,

state-owned and enterprises, that is proven that the current political leadership in the country is wasteful out of its depths. Early this year, the group chief executive of Transnet outlined plans for the entity to hand over to private companies to run its container courier, between Johannesburg and eThekwini for the next 20 years.



This is reportedly to help its container courier to function optimally because the entity itself has failed to perform and fulfil its mandate.



The entity reported to Parliament that it has gone out to seek private sector partners who are interested in entering into an operational lease agreement with Transnet, for the operation of the container courier. The private sector partners will then be responsible for the full operation of the container between the city to Durban, includes the terminals of City Deep, Kascon, and Bayhead.



However, guess this will require to invest over five billion into these operations. The benefits will however means that this private sector partners are, as they will be, practically in charge of the entire container courier.

Eskom, which has been a political football for a while, is a true example of what happens to a country that is not grounded in any ideological conviction. The entity has been deliberated run down over the past 15 years and is now swimming in depths. The situation is made worse by the commitment of the current regime to unsustainably independent on power purchases agreement, which are further draining Eskom and dragging it down to its knees.



The company performance has worsened under the management of the white messiah appointment by Pravin Gordhan Jamnadas, after he has embarked on the concerned effort to rid Eskom of African managers.



The company continue to make serious financial losses and is still unable to guarantee a social supply of electricity for the whole country, therefore tackling any economic growth prospects.


The continue load shedding and its impact of the economy is the most glaring indicator of the mess that Ramaphosa regime has visited upon the nation. The poor performance by almost all state-owned enterprises should not surprise South Africa.

All these companies provide critical service to the nation. And the private sector has been salvaging over these markets for a while. Without the state as the dependable provider of these services, the private sector will occupy the space and provide these services, costly to the population.



The intention therefore is to weaken the state in a dramatic fashion and kill all of any aspiration for the state-led development program in this country. The weakening of these entities is part of a massive program of a state capture enabled by the current government of ill-informed and corrupt, petit able represented by Ramaphosa and Pravin.



This type of state capture makes Zuma’s years seems like a Sunday picnic in a park. With the backing of the media, with the destruction of the capacity of the state to investigate and prosecute these criminals, Mr Ramaphosa has been successful where Zuma failed.



There is no way that competently management Denel cannot function in any optimal manner. In an age where a research and innovation are driven, arms technology developed around the world. There is no reason why Kusile and Medupi power stations has not been momentarily failures that they are, apart from

the fact that this has benefited private companies and painted the state as incompetent.


Central to this whole project is Mr Pravin Jamnadas Gordan and some minor Ministers in the Ramaphosa government. They are not incompetent, they are not clueless, they know exactly what they are doing.



The ultimate aim is to strip the country off, all the ability to develop without going kept in a hand, to beg at the doors of the white capital. The losses in all these will be South African citizens, who will have no state to depend on, when this project is all over.



The only true recourse remain at the hands of the population, is their votes. The ANC cannot be reformed. It must be destroyed together with the agenda they are representing. The South African economy will never emerge out of this quagmire without a concerned investment efforts by the state.



We need the state to be strong and capable to drive development across sectors. Transnet and Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, PRASA, must be fixed to enable easy movement of goods and people across the country.

We must dish unsustainable visitation with real renewable because those do not serve the interest of the country, but the few individuals who fund the leaders of the ruling party.


Eskom can be fixed, but only if there was a willingness on the part of those who lead the nation. South Africa must resist these attempts at loader their nation’s resources to the highest bidder. I thank you, House Chairperson.



Mr Z MKIVA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Greetings to you and greetings to the Chief Whip and the hon members of the House. Thank you for affording me the opportunity to speak on behalf of the ANC. From the onset, allow me to actually reject this opportunistic politicking by hon Magwala, representing the EFF. [Interjections.]



Mr M J MAGWALA: Just do your speech; leave me alone!




Mr Z MKIVA: They are daydreaming. A country can never be led through slogans and groundless and baseless allegations that you are making against the ANC.



We have now been in power for 29 years, and when we took over the reins of power in this country, these SOEs were shelter

employment organisations. We transformed them into business entities, which we now call state-owned enterprises and state- owned companies. Through them, we have managed to advance the plans of the ANC, from the time we implemented the RDP, to where we are now, on the economic recovery.



We are quiet very clear that we are not in the business of privatising the SOEs in this country. While logically consistent and maybe theoretically defensible, at least according to the red nose tinted sunglasses of the EFF, my assessment of today’s debate is that it is an exaggeration which comes with three very serious and unacceptable costs.



The first cost is the misleading inference that there is a deliberate attempt to distract SOEs. Underlying this misleading inference, is the flawed notion that SOCs are prone to capture by vested interests, and that they are systematically distracted so that they can be handed over to the private sector.



The second cost is the opportunistic neglect of the restructuring and turn-around plans underway across SOEs, aimed at strengthening the role of the state as an agent of economic transformation and long-term industrial development.

In fact, this neglect is quite surprising, given that the restructuring and general plans of SOEs are widely reported in the country, on daily basis, by Ministers as well as the bureaucrats that are given the task of leading that charge in transforming and turning around these SOEs.



The third cost is an inability to engage in historical analysis grounded in context. The EFF, which is sponsoring this motion for debate, seems oblivious to the reality that SOEs are currently attempting to reverse the destructive legacy of state capture. In our view, as the ANC, reversing the destructive legacy of state capture is a long arduous process rather than an instantaneous change. In other words, we cannot expect our SOEs to resemble the impressive performance of SOEs in the Asian Tigers overnight, but this does not imply that replication is impossible.



In short, as I will show in respect of both form and content, the quintessence of today’s debate is wrong. To put it bluntly, the theme of today’s debate is unconvincing. Let me explain why, in greater detail: The commonly held presumption in the EFF is that a developmental state requires a statist left-wing hegemony, wherein the state has substantial control over social and economic affairs.

However, the EFF is convinced that the statist left-wing hegemon that it advocates for a nonstarter since the state has become dysfunctional, in terms of the management of SOEs, as evidenced by the state’s withdrawal from economic and social spaces through public-private partnerships, PPPs, in SOEs. In doing so, however, the EFF intentionally downplayed two important dynamics of the South African experience.


First of all, the EFF statist left-wing hegemony gives the mistaken impression that the state has enough capital to invest in SOEs, so that they can compete on the basis of creativity and innovation to achieve economies of scale and scope. In practice, the state’s fiscus is invariable inferior to achieve investments needed to increase efficiency and to build capabilities in SOEs.



In short, we do not have money to capitalise SOEs – period! You must be aware of that, and you must have the clarity of the mind when it comes to that. Certainly, the EFF statist left-wing hegemony attempts to emulate the earlier experience of state control over social and economic affairs under the apartheid system, which the current state has no intention of replicating, precisely because it is entirely at odds with the

purpose of the Competition Act, which seeks to correct the previous social and economic imbalances in the economy.


The upshot is that the EFF statist left-wing hegemony is an attempt to intervene in social and economic spaces in specific ways that tend to extend or reproduce monopolies. In contrast, our favoured approach as the ANC is somewhat different from the EFF one. This is so because there is no single formula for constructing a viable developmental state.



As the ANC, we are confident that the public-private partnerships are apt ingredients of a developmental stage.



Perhaps most interestingly, the implementation of the public- private partnership as an effective cure of challenges of our SOEs is not an indication that the interests of private capital in general, and of finance in particular, have been savoured by the state. Rather, public-private partnerships are adopted according to binding structural, political and economic constraints.



The ensuing structural, political and economic constraints lead to several outcomes that determine the type of public- private partnership to be adopted across different SOEs.

Nevertheless, the PPPs do not weaken the role that the state can play in managing economic development and social change. Such is evident, for example, in the case of SA Airways, Transnet and SA Forestry Company Limited, Safcol.


The State-Takatso Consortium partnership in SA Airways present an opportunity, not only to further strengthen integration, trade and investment in Africa to take advantage of the African Continental Free Trade Area, but also to fulfil the lofty goals of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan and the National Development Plan, which we have adopted as a country and the government of the people, which is under the stewardship of the ANC.



Put it differently, the restructuring of SA Airways is trying to put in place the right measures: To improve the operations of the national carrier; to enable the movement of the foreign visits; and to prevent the collapse of the tourism, cultural and creative industries supply base. Of course, the EFF has denounced the State-Takatso Consortium partnership in SA Airways, as equivalent to reducing the stage to acting as a night watchman.

Admittedly though, while the state will not hold the majority stake in SA Airways anymore, after the onboarding of their Takatso Consortium, this partnership will have welfare enhancing effects, either by promoting competition in the South African airline industry or by leading to lower flight tickets for the poor and working-class passengers in our country, in particular.


To sum up, the use of PPPs for South Africa to be operationally and financially sustainable is pursued in a more diffused way than in Asian Tigers, but this partnership is not defined by the withdrawal of the state from social and economic reproduction. Transnet growth and renewal strategy, based on private sector participation, aligns with the lofty goals of the ERRP and the NDP, which mandates Transnet to leverage the private sector in the provision of both infrastructure and operations, where required.



The use of PPPs will overtime enable Transnet, not only to address the many historical barriers to entry for new participants in the ports, rail and public business, but also to invest in more efficient logistics solutions necessary to remove the factors already highlighted that constrained economic activity in the country.

This said, Transnet is on the verge of finalising PPPs for the Durban and Ngqura Container Terminals, in line with the establishment of the Transnet National Ports Authority as a subsidiary, which also mandates Transnet to implement new creative partnerships with the private sector, to strengthen the entities financial sustainability and operational viability.


Perhaps most interestingly, the adoption of these public- private partnerships lends Transnet the opportunity to improve the speed of service delivery in the core segments linked to the nine commodities, including coal, iron ore, manganese, chrome and a number of others, which contribute 80% of Transnet revenue and 42,2% of the country’s gross domestic product.



Coming to Safcol. Safcol has adopted a PPP for its Timbadola Sawmill heat and power project. This core generation plant mill will produce electricity and heat from wood residue and saw dust, while also promoting waste reduction, minimising the carbon footprint and will help to replace aging equipment, such as boilers.

These lauded successful examples of PPPs in SA Airways, Transnet and Safcol indicate that the EFF’s enthusiastic proclamations that there is a systematic destruction of SOEs, and that there is an urgent need to reposition the state as the driver of development, are nothing but attempt to distract our attention away from effective, if not efficient, interventions to turn the tide across our SOEs.


As you can see, we are actually beginning to do that, and we are turning the corner in so far as exactly turning around these institutions. Who knows? Perhaps, the EFF exploits the recent resignations of board and senior management members in Eskom and Transnet as proxies used to measure the supposedly systematic destruction of SOEs.



If, indeed, resignations can be used and be romanticised to measure seriousness and the extent of destruction in any institution, then the EFF is the most destructive institution, in itself, in the country, as evidenced by too many resignations to enumerate, including that of Andile Mngxitama, Mpho Ramakatsa, Khanyisile Litchfield-Tshabalala, Mandisa Mashego, and recently, 62 of its public representatives from national, provincial and local legislatures?

The state’s effective and efficient interventions ... [Interjections.] ... have produced impressive outcome beyond these PPPs. The other interesting outcome includes the restructuring and turn-around plans across SOEs, especially Eskom, Denel and Alexco, intended to set up an active developmental state. The restructuring of Eskom into three SOEs, ... [Interjections.] Yes, I am coming to the conclusion, Chairperson.



The restructuring of Eskom in particular and separating it into three entities that are responsible for generation, transmission and distribution has a clear edge over the old fashion business model in terms of harnessing South Africa’s energy resources, to deliver a more reliable, safer and cleaner energy mix into its people.



Chairperson, the ANC policy trajectory is very clear: We want to turn around these SOEs so that they become instruments of our economic activity in terms of achieving the goal of the developmental state. [Interjections.] The EFF, again, is gambling in a country that is governed by a mature political organisation that has been in administration of this country. [Interjections.] Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

The House Chairperson (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Mkiva, hon members, before I call hon Nhanha, I want to remind you all members who are debating, that please stick on your allocated time.





Mr M NHANHA: Hon Chairperson and hon members, good afternoon. Let me be clear from the onset, this EFF sponsored debate under the theme, open quote:



The systemic destruction of state-owned enterprises and urgent steps needed to reposition the state as the primary driver of development.



It is actually an embodiment of everything that has gone wrong in the state-owned enterprises, SOEs. It is a misplaced debate to have as it seeks to perpetuate the same that have collapsed these companies in the first instance through corruption, countless multi billion rand bailouts and cadre deployment.



After 30 years, the ANC has no good story to tell about the SOE sector. SA Airways has been stripped to the bare bones and is barely flying. Eskom is unable to keep the lights on, Transnet is on the brink of collapsing South Africa’s export sector due to a rail and port crisis. The SA Post Office

cannot deliver anything on time. Denel and Armscor have lost their global competitiveness and are now reliant on bailouts to stay afloat, and Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa has been record decline in passenger numbers as commuters continue lose confidence in its ability to operate efficiently.



The genesis of the festering malaise in the SOEs was authored at Luthuli House. Instead of opting for meritocracy in the running of SOEs, comrades saw an opportunity to loot these entities dry. Cadre deployment resulted in the systematic degradation of these entities, which culminated in Zuma’s state capture project. The industrial scale looting that took place hollowed SOEs and they have not recovered ever since.


I have said it twice in this House, I shall say it again. The concept of placing the state at the centre of development is a socialist project that has not only spectacularly failed where it originates, in the then Union of Socialist Soviets Republic, USSR but has ... [Inaudible.]



An HON MEMBER: It’s working in China. It’s working in China.

Mr M HNAHNA: ... hardships in Venezuela, perpetuated underdevelopment in Cuba and completely destroyed all the economies across the African continent.


Staying with Venezuela hon members, Gabriel Ferrer a first- year student at the University of Harvard who is amongst the

7 million who escaped economic meltdown in Venezuela, earlier this year wrote a telling piece about the economic crisis in his native land. From being Latin America’s envy in the 80s to being the destroyed country that it is. There is a lot to learn about who or what is to blame for the Venezuelan socioeconomic crisis.



Venezuela, ever since the 60s, was one of the richest countries in Latin America and most developed country of the region. It was the Venezuela everyone wished to have had. This was due to the high oil price in the international market, since Venezuela is one of the counties with the biggest oil reserves in the world.



This made it one of the fastest rising economies of Latin America for most of the late 20th century. They were a model democracy for most of the continent, too. They had a fair and competitive democratic system in place, so strong it survived

a wave of authoritarian ruling and economic crisis in Latin America from the 60s all the way to early 80s.


During the last few years, Venezuela has been nothing but a socioeconomic crisis. The absurd hyperinflation of the Venezuelan currency has made the economy fall into a crisis, and the government has failed to make it any better. This has ultimately caused the social aspect of the country to be in the decline.



Looking for something to put on the table has become the biggest problem to be solved by the Venezuelans; there is no time for leisure or development. The insecurity has also spiralled out of control because delinquents have decided that robbing someone a little bit less poor than them is the solution for their situation.



But, in 1998, Venezuela was destined to suffer what it did not suffer from the mid-1900s which is populism that characterised Latin America at the time. The infamous Hugo Chávez, I suppose our Jacob Zuma was a recently freed military officer who had failed in an attempted coup against the democratically elected government two years before, ascended to power by promising

the world to the working class and the minorities in Venezuela.


Chávez’s incompetent way of handling the economy, coupled with his constant attempt to change the whole state to his liking, were the determining factors of the current situation in Venezuela. The Mexican newspaper El Universal in an article titled, “Venezuela’s crisis: who to blame?” expresses that the socialist reforms of Chávez’s mandate destroyed the country’s private sector.



His reforms were based on expropriating hundreds of businesses to nationalise them and do nothing about them after all, one of the worst things that could have happened to a country.

Chávez, selling his actions as giving the people what belongs to the people, found a way to acquire many more positions for his friends and family. Because apparently, only the people closest to him were the people.


John Otis, a Bogotá-based correspondent for National Public Radio, NPR, in his article on the issue, made it abundantly clear that the government or lack of it was responsible for such a humanitarian crisis. Across his article, his choice of words leaves clear that most of the Venezuelans blame the

socialist government for the great Venezuelan migration. The situation is widely blamed on corruption and mismanagement by President Nicolás Maduro’s socialist regime. I am sure by now; you are all beginning to see South Africa’s socioeconomic crisis in the story of Venezuela.



In the Brenthurst Foundation Discussion Paper dated 01 of 2014 and titled: “The Red Berets of Hugo Chavez-Lessons for South Africa”, Dr Greg Mills and Malcom Ferguson describe Chávez as an exceptionally charismatic and astute politician, possessed of a mischievous sense of humour and an extraordinary common touch, often playing a guitar and playing into song. Above all, he was a game changer, a man who through force of personality and political ruthlessness radically transformed the character of Venezuelan politics.



His initial success at reducing poverty came at a price, both politically and economically. In pursuit of his stated political aims of creating a more equal and socially just society, Chávez deliberately divided Venezuelan society into two camps; those who supported him and those who did not support him and he described those as oppressors of the people and the enemy.

The strategy has left Venezuela bitterly fractured both in spirit and economically. It has led to mass emigration and, in conjunction with ceaseless attacks on private business, to the collapse of the productive sector. They further contend that the emergence of the EFF in South Africa which models itself on Chávez’s National Bolivarian Armed Forces of Venezuela, prompts the question of how to address inequality and grinding poverty in this country.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): As you conclude.



Mr M NHANHA: Efforts - history compels us hon members that we should resist with all what we have the path the EFF is luring us to take because it has had disastrous consequences in Venezuela. If it is allowed in our country, it will be just as catastrophic. Hon. Members I have decided to focus on Venezuela’s economic crisis because it is an important topic for us to learn.





Ziingcuka ezi zambethe ufele lwegusha. Bavuthulula iBVS Mutual Bank norhulumente waseLimpopo ngoku bafuna ukugqibezela oku sekusele eMzantsi Africa. Enkosi kakhulu.

Mr M J MAGWALA: On a point of order Chairperson. On a point of order Chairperson. On a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon Nhanha, point of order.



Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, hon Nhanha is making a statement saying that, “bavuthulula iVBS Mutual Bank.” There is nowhere, anywhere or in any court of law that has proven that the EFF has taken money from VBS. Hon Nhanha must withdraw ... [Interjections.]




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Bayivuthulula, bayigqiba. Bayigqiba.




Mr M J MAGWALA: He must not mislead the House and the public. He must withdraw unconditionally with immediate effect.







The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you hon member. Hon Nhanha, can you please continue.

Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson, if shoes fit hon Magwala he must wear them.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order. Chair! Char!



Mr M NHANHA: If the shoes fit, they must wear the shoes.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, on a point of order. On a point of order.



Mr M HNAHNA: Thank you Chairperson, I am done. Thank you. Thank you, hon members.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much hon Nhanha. Hon Hlabangwani.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order MaNgwenya.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, hon Mokause.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, you are deliberately ignoring hon Magwala. We are calling on everyone who speaks about VBS Mutula Bank ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): What’s your point of order hon Mokause?


Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... to go and open a case. And that includes you MaNgwenya.



Ms N NDONGENI: There is no point of order.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: There is no case against the EFF ... [Intetjections.]



Ms N NDONGENI: There is no point of order. [Interjections]






[Uwele-wele] ... la masela ndingavuli ityala nje?




Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Nhanha needs to withdraw. We maintain that statement. [Interjections]




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Hayi, ukuba izihlangu ziyakulingana, zinxibe. [Uwele-wele]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: You’ve got cases in Parliament MaNgwenya. You’ve got cases.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order hon members. Order hon Mokause.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: People are opening cases against you ANC people for corruption, not the EFF. The EFF has never ... [Interjections.]




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Xa enamatyala ungayi kumangala nje? Xa enamatyala ungayi kungamangali nje? [Uwele-wele]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order hon members ... [Inaudible.]


Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are a corrupt bunch of people there.




An HON MEMBER: Go and open cases.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Hlabangwani, EFF.

An HON MEMBER: Mama Ngwenya, the government in waiting. The Minister in waiting.




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Hayi, suka wena. Hayi suka ...






... you are lying.



An HON MEMBER: Shame, shame on you.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order hon ... hon Nkosi, order! Hon Hlabangwani.



Ms T L HLABANGWANI: Hon House Chair, as the EFF, the government in waiting, we are here to debate about the systematic destruction of state enterprises and urgent steps needed to reposition the state as the primary driver of development.


House Chairperson, we are having this debate in the middle of a very painful time in our country, where we seem to reverse and still continue to reverse all the strides we made since 1994. Our people have to deal with the tragic threat of poverty, unemployment, and inequality in South Africa on a

daily basis. The improvement is one of the primary negative consequences of the decline of state enterprises and as state enterprises are major employers providing jobs to a significant portion of the workforce.


The authorities and entities face financial strain, mismanagement and operational challenges, job losses become inevitable. The direct impact is felt not only by employees, but also by the communities and industries that rely on the economic activities generated by these enterprises.



The decline of state enterprises in South Africa carries significant social implications that extend well beyond economic considerations. Workers, communities, and all overall well-being of citizens are in strikingly linked to the fate of this entities.



Hon House Chair, this disruption extends beyond the workplace, affecting the mental and emotional well-being of individuals and their families, and contributing to social issues like increased crime rates and strange social services. As state entities struggle, there is a decline in the quality and availability of services such as transportation, energy and telecommunications, which can hinder our people's ability to

access education, healthcare and employment opportunities, perpetuating a cycle of economic and social disadvantages.


House Chairperson, the EFF, has various platforms, lamenting the importance of state-owned enterprises in South Africa.

State-owned enterprises are the main sources of employment in this country. They play the important role of upgrading labour skills and raising social standards. States-owned enterprises contribute to socioeconomic transformation through the creation of jobs and skills development. They provide employment and the transfer of skills, which are crucial elements for development. They are also vehicles for job creation and employment.



The importance of well-governed state-owned enterprises is further illustrated by the fact that they tend to be concentrated in the strategic sectors such as infrastructure, rail transport, electricity and water supply, road costing, natural resource extraction, telecommunications, as well as finance.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, your time is up.

Ms T L HLABANGWANI: They are an important part in achieving national development goals such as ours. [Interjections.] ... reliance on solid and well-run institutions of the state. And throughout the developed world, state-owned enterprises are regarded as a mechanism to improve, contribute to the social and economic development of our people.



As I conclude, House Chairperson, House Chairperson, we all know that for economies to grow, for jobs to be created, and for countries to be stable, there needs to be a related effort for foster care ... [Interjections.] ... thriving development, upskilling the nation, and providing resources needed for the development of the country. Thank you very much Hon Chairperson.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, I have got three members meanwhile the member was behaving as she was behaving. It’s the hon Mama Bebee, the hon Labuschagne and the hon member. As I call you, Mama?



Ms L C BEBEE: House Chair, we are not going to tolerate the hon member, just to disgrace this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order hon member! We are addressing you.


Ms L C BEBEE: We stick to the rules of this House as the National Council of Provinces. So, you can't come here and do whatever you want just because you want to be seen by your party. So, hon Chairperson, I think the hon member made a very big mistake. This is not done hon member. Please behave yourself.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Which rule are you referring to? Which rule?




Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on Rule 52(d). The delegate’s conduct is grossly disorderly, and I raise this because the member shouted at a level that no one could listen, and I don’t think that contributes to the decorum of this House. Further on, except that, the member also ignored the Chair and continued to grossly misconduct. I would like you to rule on that. Thank you.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, I have been covered by the hon Labuschagne. I would however suggest that the hon member from the EFF when she is brought before the Powers and Privileges Committee on her behaviour today, she might just

her leader to borrow her some of the VBS money in order to get a good lawyer. Thank you.


Mr M J MAGWALA: Mama Ngwenya, no, this is really out of order now. Chairperson, no, it’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen Chairperson.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Mam’Ngwenya also does not know the rules. How do you not even know the rules? She does not read. We are going to talk in that House. It’s our last few months in that House.


Mr M J MAGWALA: Don’t say hey to me. We are not going to be threatened by you. You can never come here with no facts telling us that the EFF took VBS money. Don’t start. Hon Ngwenya you must rule oh the hon Nhanha first. That is why this happening like this. It’s wrong.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I want to make a ruling, now you are disturbing me.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: We are not disturbing you. You are a bunch of corrupt people. Never mention VBS, we never took VBS money.

You are corrupt. You are a Bosasa beneficiary in that House. That’s why you can’t even read. You are a Bosasa beneficiary.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I want to make ruling, can you please speak?



Mr D R RYDER: Chair, in addition to the issue raised by the hon Labuschagne, I would like to refer the House to Rule 50 which speaks to the precedence of the presiding officer and says:



Whenever the officer presiding during a debate of the Council, a delegate addressing or seeking to address the Chair must take his or her seat and allow the officer presiding to be heard without interruption.



That was clearly not followed, Chairperson. I think this matter needs to be referred to the relevant committee, be it Ethics or Powers and Privileges. While you are doing that, Chair, I would also like to make the point that shouting out that we are not going to listen to a white boy is also unparliamentary, and I would like you to rule on that. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I would like to make ruling.


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, point of order?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, I’d like to make a ruling now.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, point of order?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, I’m making a ruling now. I didn’t allow you to speak.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, you cannot do that.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Motsamai, please sit down. I want to make a ruling on the behaviour that the hon member has done in the House.





... uzibonile nawe ukuthi ...






... what you have done is wrong. I’m making a ruling now.








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Rule 60, time limit for the speech. This is what she has done. Except whether this rule provides otherwise, delegates may not speak in the Council for longer than the time allocated to them in the in the speakers list.



Hon member, what you have done is out of order. Another thing that I want to remind you members is that when your time is up, even if you speak, we cannot hear what you are saying.

Instead, you are wasting our time and undermine not only me as the Chair but all of us.



I’m making a ruling that I’m going to take this matter to the Ethics Committee. Thank you.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I’m rising on a point of order. Chairperson, Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No point of order on this matter. I’ve made a ruling already.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m not rising on this matter, Chair.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I have made a ruling, hon Mokause!


Ms M O MOKAUSE: It’s a new matter.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I have made a ruling. you are not going to speak on this matter because I have made a ruling already.



Ha ke na o dumella o bue ...





... hon member.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: It’s a new matter.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members ...




Malungu ahloniphekile siyaqhuba. Ngicela ningivalele ilungu elihloniphekile uMokause uma engafuni ukungilalela. Ngicela eTafuleni nivale uMokause.




Ms M O MOKAUSE: We are not going to listen to Bosasa beneficiaries like you Mam’Ngwenya, to come and tell us nonsense. You are a beneficiary of Bosasa.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order! Order hon members!


Ms M O MOKAUSE: That’s why you will drag our member to Ethics Committee for nothing.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order!





Ngicela eTafuleni nivale uMokause.





I’m insisting. The table, please assist me and assist all of us.


Valani uMokause.





Hon members, order, order! We are continuing with our debate now. I would like to the hon Obed, the Deputy Minister of Public Enterprises. Please come to the platform hon member. Thank you.




Chairperson and greetings to all hon members and delegates from provinces and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives present.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members. Continue, hon Minister.




the debate that has been presented to us has already pointed out the position of the DA as a market fundamentalist organisation and on the side of the EFF, it has already given us a hint of a debate of the ultraleft arguments that are not backed by science and facts. And yet South Africa in 1994 - as we’ll be celebrating 30 years of democracy next year, chose a

middle road of a mixed economy. In the mixed economy it says that the state has a role to play in the economy and has to ensure that all market failures of the state is unable to come in and then really begin to provide on those services to the people. Imagine if the state was to be removed from being an activist, Wi-Fi and fibre build up will not be rolling out, meaning the digital divide that we see now, where the markets only concentrate on the urban areas and not wanting to put up infrastructure in the rural areas so that there’s the equality of access to the Wi-Fi services will then be not achieved.

Therefore, the role of the state is really to come in in that instance. Imagine if the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, was to be privatised tomorrow, which is after giving affordable rates for people to travel to work and then you give it to the private hands, whose aim is just to make profits and nothing else. It means the working class and those who work for our country will suffer. So, the list goes on.

Therefore, there’s a role the state has to play, whilst allowing the private sector also to play its role, but the state’s role is to ensure and guarantee services to the people, and to the most vulnerable and to really play a role in those areas where the markets are unable to grow because they don’t see profits in in them.

Therefore, with this debate, we are saying here that there is no government engineered and orchestrated destruction of the SOEs or state-owned companies. On the contrary, these state- owned companies are at the centre of government’s economic reconstruction, development, transformation and service delivery agenda. Over the past five years, the performance of the state-owned entities has been varied across the portfolio committee of the Department of Public Enterprise. This can be attributed to a combination of factors such as state capture, outdated business models, government instability undercapitalisation, as well as inadequate oversight.


I want to emphasise on the issue of undercapitalisation. When other countries that are of the same economy as ours, such as South Korea, Malaysia, China and others that are above us - put a lot of money in the remodernisation and the re- engineering of their own assets, South Africa did not do that. Therefore, this undercapitalisation is coming at a cost now.

But that does not mean that it’s a distraction or is engineered to destroy the SOEs is in order to sell them. There’s no truth in that particular element.



Also, I think state capture has really exposed us. But once you put men and women in the boards and in the management, you

must have an extra oversight capability of the state that is capacitated to ensure that everything is done in accordance so that we protect the assets of the state from some of the people who unfortunately did whatever they did. So, this plans therefore, are in place to revise and remodernism and develop turnaround plans and strategies to restructuring and reforming the state-owned entities.


Government has taken decisive steps to stabilise these entities by securing financial support to prevent them from total collapse due to untenable capital structures which carried significant burden interest. With regard to Eskom, just to come in there, as you know that Eskom was one of the performing state-owned entities. When we came into power, the electricity excess in South Africa was just below 50%. We were able then to drive the programme of electrifying every township and every village and making electricity a right for all, not a privilege for the few, as was the case. But in doing so, we did not build new generation capacity. And then Eskom came and said that we needed to do so. We kept on saying that there should be a drive of the electrification which is now standing at 95% excess.



South Africans who were born before democracy, who experienced

apartheid, know that Africans were only reduced to paraffin lights and candle lights, but today everybody has that access. Therefore, in 2007, when we started building Kusile and Medupi, it was already late, and then the generation constraint was already feeling it. We lost the energy available factor declining from 77,3% to 56,3%, and outplan outages increasing from 10% to 31% as is the case.


With government intervention though, we will now have an energy action plan and generation recovery plans which are there to ensure that we recover even in that area. We are rebuilding and we are able to reduce the intensity of load shedding. The general recovery plan is currently in place which envisage a recovery of 3 115 MW by March 2024 - almost like the way it was in October this year, at 60%, but unplanned outages arose as a result of the collapse of some of the units and hence this situation.



So, once we are at 65%, that’s the safest spot in which we want to really build this generation recovery plan and ensure therefore that we’re able to stay there and up it up by 6 000 to 70% towards 80%. In that way, we will be assured of this energy availability factor. But should there be anything obviously with the first call, it is to protect the

infrastructure from total collapse. That is what is happening around Eskom which has had to go through this.


The separation of Eskom companies to three companies is not a privatisation programme. All of them are 100% state-owned companies into generation transmission and distribution. We have learned from some of the Third World countries that if you separate, if one pulls down, it does not pull the others down. Currently, Eskom is a 100 years old, and it’s designed is that if any of the entities pulls down, it pulls down the entire company, therefore the model is more of the regeneration, rebuilding and then also now repurposing them for the South Africa that we live in today.



Regarding Transnet, obviously there are challenges that have been captured and topical now. We also did not invest enough in the infrastructure, and in expanding all that infrastructure. We continued with the same rail network with the same trains - some of them are 50 years old, some 60 years old. They fiscus has been challenged to look at other priorities of society. So, the balancing act element has led to some of these. It was not negligence, but it was also because the fiscus had to also prioritise in the ensuring that children are able to go to school and then those who are

finishing their matric are able to access universities. We also needed to support them to at least complete the first degree.


With that, we had to then rely on the old Transnet. Obviously, we had to start building and investing in it. Locomotives have been bought and unfortunately the way it was done, corruption came in and as a result those locomotives are stationary, without parts. We are now resolving to re-engineer Transnet and hoping therefore that the current congestions at the Durban Port with a 40 km of trucks lining up towards the port and the port not being functional with old materials, old systems and old technology. We are also now beginning to re- engineer and engaging with original equipment manufacturers to bring in and recalculate on that particular aspect, including the new investor that has partnered with the National Ports Authority of SA at the Durban Container Terminal to expand the port to be able to bring the big ships into South Africa.

Whatever is the current challenge, we are now beginning to look at it. The Minister is not in this debate because he is physically there in Durban to unlock whatever challenges are there.



Regarding SA Airways, SAA, the issue here is that the Minister

did not decide to put it on business rescue. The creditors decided to go to court when they could not be paid. They applied for the court to liquidate SAA so that they can recoup back their monies. It was at that point before the court could come to a determination that the Minister decided to put it under business rescue and that saved SAA. The conditions were as such that we wanted to be 60% and 40% with whoever comes in to partner with us. But the offer on the table was such that no other could then prove money and therefore we ended up with that particular situation. But with the price which was put at R51 million and we had to negotiate what we call the golden shake, which was R3 billion and that whoever comes in must bring in capital injection into the SAA at the tune of that.



We therefore hope that once that deal is over, the state will no longer be carrying the burden of bail out because these private investments, together with government, is what we call the public-private partnership, PPP, model or the build- operate-transfer model. It’s not just done ... [Inaudible.]

... it because we have to save the company. If we didn’t do so, it will be closed down like the SA Express, which was liquidated. The company, SA Express, is no more, its nonexistent. But we are proud that SAA is back in the skies.

Regarding Denel, it definitely lost a lot of money due to corruption. Also, when they could not pay workers, a lot of those workers left and went to other companies in the industry. There was a deliberate move to sabotage Denel when

200 workers were recruited into some country, meaning all those skilled workers left Denel. But we are rebuilding Denel. We are renegotiating the market share that they’ve lost so that we could begin to have that capacity of a Denel that is functional.


Regarding the SA Forestry Company SOC Limited, Safcol, which is doing well. Its revenue is increasing from R926 million to R1,2 billion in 2018 up to now. So, it is one of those state- owned companies that no one talks about. They don’t give it praises it because it’s doing well on what it ought to do. I also want to thank Safcol for having this learnership programmes where young people can be trained on ... [Inaudible.] ... and not just for the job. They can go to Tzaneen and look at the project, go to Vhembe to look at the project, or go to Komati in Mpumalanga and look at the project. A lot of beneficiaries of communities, youth and women who are now entrepreneurs in the Safcol value chain.



Alexkor is also rising from corruption as a result of that

they are now able to sell and make a profit as a result of their coming back of R482 million in the past financial year. But challenges of land claimants are still unfortunately holding them, and we therefore have to begin to make sure that the communities of Richterveld are also able to ... [Inaudible.] With regard to governance, I just want to conclude and on social economic development programme that we are now beginning to focus on putting boards in place that will run these companies proper and management that will come in and deal with those outstanding cases of corruption. We are chasing that money. We want to say to you that the ANC knows what it is doing and the ANC is recalibrating all the SOEs is to be catalytic ... [Time expired.] ... for economic growth.

Thank you very much.




Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Chairperson, state-owned enterprises, SOEs, were established by government to improve the lives of its citizens and service the catalyst for economic growth and development. However, over the years, these institutions became a sign of failure and corruption. Eskom, SAA and other SOEs have all been brought to their knees by constant mismanagement, incompetence and corruption.

And when we look at the collapse of Eskom, for example, and I quote this from an article of the Daily Maverick: “The ANC is happy to fold its arms, as if such problems have nothing to do with their party, but we all know that it is the ANC Ministers who have been meddling with the governance and the management of Eskom, and that it is the ANC government that has collapsed Eskom.


Eskom was established 100 years ago in 1923 by the then government of Prime Minister Jan Smith, to provide electricity for the industrialisation of the entire country, ... [Inaudible.] ... only a handful of mining centres. All the governments that came after that of Smith’s, from the ... [Inaudible.] ... government of 1924, all the way to the apartheid government, appreciated the need to keep on strengthening Eskom. But ... [Inaudible.] ... the incompetence of the ANC took over the company after 1994. They extended the electricity provision to millions of previously unserved people, without building more operational, and the focus is on operational, generation capacity.



This is like having ... [Inaudible.] ... that you keep on loading with more and more passengers, without the vessel becoming bigger. Eventually, the vessel will sink. And the

combination of ANC incompetence and corruption that has ultimately broken Eskom ... [Inaudible.] .... That is the result of almost three decades of neglect and looting, effectively milking the cow dry and cutting off each other. That is a fact that the ANC simply cannot deny.





Staatsentiteite is deur hierdie regering tot stand gebring om die lewens van burgers te verbeter en ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling te verseker, maar soos ek vroeër gese het, ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... het hierdie instellings ’n teken van mislukking en korrupsie geword.


Eskom, Transnet en ander staatsentiteite is almal op hul knieë gedwing deur die aanhoudende wanbestuur, onbevoegdheid en korrupsie, tot so ’n mate dat dit daar onlangs berig is dat tot ’n half miljoen mense hulle werk kan verloor, as daar nie dringend by Transnet ingegryp word nie.



Dit is geen geheim dat individue in leierskapsposisie in staatsbeheerde ondernemenings aangestel word, gebaseer op hul politieke verwanskappe, eerder as ... [tussenwerpsel.] ... en dit het gelei tot besluitneming gebaseer op politieke belang, eerder as op die ingeligte sakepraktyke. Dit is as gevolg van

individue wat sonder kwalifikasies en ervaring aangestel is

... [Onhoorbaar.] ... sleutelaanstellings te lei, wat bygedra het tot die agteruitgng en die verval van hierdie entiteite.





Even the President acknowledged in his Sona speech that state- owned enterprises are the state’s greatest weakness and that many SOEs are struggling with debt and underinvestment in infrastructure, because of the effects of state capture and the shortage of skills. Taxpayers invested more than

R233 billion in SOEs over the last five years, with only ... [Inaudible.] ... a dividend of R1 million.



And I’m glad the Deputy Minister spoke about Safcor. I just want to remind the Deputy Minister that there is a big difference between increasing your turnover and increasing your profit. None the less, to address this challenge, the President stated that the government will establish a state- owned holding company, as part of a centralised shareholder

... [Inaudible.] ... that will ensure effective oversight over SOEs.



All this sounds good on paper. Unfortunately, South Africans have lost their trust in the current government, and we all

know that this will only create an environment for more corruption, cadre deployment and mismanagement. SOEs in South Africa don’t need the ANC-managed recovery plan or to be centralised by the ANC to survive and thrive.


SOEs in South Africa, like the rest of South Africa, need a government where the ANC is not currently governing, or any VBS-looting party, for that matter. And this is the only way to save SOEs and South Africa. Luckily, this will become a reality after the 2024 elections. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon member. I wish all members can do what you have done, in terms of sticking to your time. Thank you.





Nk L C BEBEE: Ngibonge, Sihlalo weNdlu ngaleli thuba onginikeza lona lokuba yingxenye yale nkulumo-mpikiswano yanamhlanje. Kepha nje ngithe angisike elijikayo ukuthi izolo besinokhetho lokuchibiyela laphaya ezigcemeni u-41 eMsunduzi lapho khona i-ANC ithole 2 428, i-EFF yathola 327, i-DA yona yathola iqanda. Ngiyishiye lapho.




Hon Chairperson, while the phrase systematic destruction of State-Owned Enterprises, SOEs, is the core aspect of the EFF motion for debate brought before us such a phrase contains no element of truth in that it is doubtful that everyday management of SOEs in this country is primarily characterise deliberate attempt of systematic destruction. Chairperson, this is disappointing from a party that self-proclaims to be guided by superior logic.



The so-called superior logic of the EFF is rather a narrowing technical and ideological bias education. Why is the EFF motion for debate basis doubts about the strength and viability of the state to curb nefarious political interference and abuse of political power as well as sabotage within SOEs our perspective as the ANC is distinctive. It is distinctive, hon Chairperson, because we are not ignorant of the fact that the state has appointed people with descent training and adequate into boards and executive management across SOEs to address systematic destruction of SOEs where they do arise but also and inevitable where they do not.


Hon Chairperson, the bottom line is that competent capable and effective boards and executive management are ant thinker to deliberate attempts to systematically destructive SOEs. In

short, systematic destruction of SOEs is necessary contingent upon incompetent, incapacitated and infective boards and executive management.


Hon Chairperson, paradoxically falsely evidence indicates that there is no sign of potential systematic destruction of SOEs. These implies that the EFF claims that there is a systematic destruction of SOEs is a false optimism about the diagnosis and unsurprisingly the prognosis about what is to be done from the EFF will be flawed if not costly as well.



Chairperson, despite claims to the contrary all SOEs undergoing restructuring and informs have appointed competent, capable and effective boards and executive management. This has increased rather than decreased certainly about the ability of the state to deploy its administrative and political resources to the task of addressing destructive implicating where they do arise with SOEs.



Hon Chairperson, to begin with, Eskom newly appointed board has put the financial means and human resources at its disposal to deter corruption and fraud as well as any form of procurement processes abused. Thanks to the outstanding work of the board as commence to establish the State Capture Task

Team, which works collaborate with the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and the Special Investigative Unit, SIU, to proactively implement the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry into State Capture.


Hon Chairperson, more recently, Eskom State Capture Task Team has made sinuous effort to cover unlawful payments of over R3,1 billion from McKenzie and countless other service providers through collaborative partnership with the NPA and the SIU.



Hon Chairperson, as part of expediting civil recoveries Eskom is currently pursuing approximately R4,8 billion through civil action against its former executives and directors that were the brain and heart of the State Capture. This is done in collaboration with the SIU and the SA Police Service.



Hon members, Eskom State Capture Task Team has proven very effective at implementing the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry into State Capture and ensuring that the desired goals are met. Take for example, the Task Team has successfully reduced the costly corruption activities that were a common place across Eskom’s power station in Limpopo and Mpumalanga by taking disciplinary actions against

delinquent employees and directors as well deregistering and blacklisting delinquent suppliers from Eskom data base.


Hon Chairperson, this disciplinary actions have had unlimited success and they resulted in some delinquent directors being suspended from their professional bodies such as the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants. A new contract being placed under provincial bloc until the supplier discipline processes are concluded.



Hon Chairperson, moreover, these disciplinary actions have resulted in the opening of 144 cases against Eskom employees for fraud and corruption with only 41 cases resulting in criminal proceedings under the Criminal Procedure Act.



Apart from the Task Team, Eskom has rationalised and streamlined rigorous campaign to boaster ethics, integrity and compliance programmes and at rooting out corruption, fraud and sabotage.



Some of the key milestones include: Firstly, a crime risk management design to combat amongst other things, bribery and corruption, financial crime, physical assets crime, cybercrime and anti-money laundering at Eskom. Secondly, a single

investigative unit establish and manage investigation matters related to fraud and corruption.


Hon Chairperson, these campaigns have laid the foundation for interventions geared towards combating fraud, corruption and sabotage especially in the supply of the coal at SCOR.



Perhaps most interestingly tasks involved in the positioning of the subgrade coal, gas in Matla Camden and Kendal Power Station in Mpumalanga had been impounded while the drivers were placed under arrest between October and November.


Relatedly in December 2022, the Hoax had raided numerous coal yards in Emalahleni in Mpumalanga that were involved in swapping quality coal and subgrade coal destiny to Eskom power stations.



Furthermore, Chairperson, it was also shown in Eskom annual report for the 2022-23 financial year that incident of irregular expenditure as well as fruitless and wasteful expenditure has drastically declined.



We commend Eskom for self-correcting incident of irregular expenditure as well as fruitless and wasteful expenditure

despite ambiguously and unprecedentedly adverse political economic and structural conditions to do so.


Hon Chairperson, the case of Eskom is an eloquent testimony to the ANC’s long held view that the fail systematic destruction of SOEs is misleading and opportunistic because signs of systematic destructions are not only illusive but also materially underground that across SOEs.



Going further, Chairperson, the state has led the selection and appointment of competent boards and executive management at Transnet, which are working are collaborate to ensure the implementation of the growth and renewal strategy predicated and sector participation as outlined in the National Development Plan, NDP, and the Effective Isotropic Radiated power, EIRP.


Significantly, Transnet has identified 10 preferred bidders including but not limited to global ports services, International Container Terminal Services, Red Sea Gateway Terminal and MMC Port Holdings and Star Classic Investment Limited and Abu Dhabi Ports. As part of the 25 years’ special purpose vehicles between the private sector, players and the Transnet Port Terminals for the Durban and Ngqura Terminals in

KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape in line with the establishment of Transnet National Ports Authority as the subsidiary of the Transnet goals.


Hon members of this House, perhaps most interestingly the entry of the new private sector players will not be limited at both the Durban and Ngqura Container Terminal but rather, we will extend to the City Deep Container Terminal and the Kalfontein Terminal, auto supply chain integration in Gauteng as part of the Transnet prioritised transition to enable growth and renewal on the one hand and the state operation Vulindlela initiative for raising port efficiency and terminal on the other hand.



Hon Chairperson, at the same time, Transnet has achieved significant improvement in the speed of service delivery in the core segments as well as the auto and containers through the increase in rail utilisation. Consider, for example, the reopening of Deelfontein link in Gauteng has improved turnaround time of the automatic industry reducing the route by 60 kilometres thus positioning the automotive industry nicely contribute towards the reindustrialisation of the South African economy.

Hon Chairperson, henceforth, there is a real potential for export growth in the automotive industry as seven original equipment manufacturers made a commitment of R40 billion investment in the next five years. This will impact positively on both employments in the industry, which stand around 120 employees and whose export share account for 14% of South African export. Accordingly, Transnet had identified key opportunities to expand the Port of Durban, the Port of Port Elizabeth and the Port of East London to match the potential export in the automative industry in the country.



Hon members and hon Chairperson, furthermore, Transnet competent board and executive management is responsible for the completion of the rehabilitation of Thornwood Railway Station on the container corrido in KwaZulu-Natal, which has resulted in the restoration of 27 trains per day thereby opening new opportunities for investment to match demand for rolling stock overhaul and upgrade.



The restoration of 27 trains per day, for example, will have a positive spill over effect and Transnet engineering as it will assist the disturbalisation of the current facing serious.

As I conclude, Chairperson, the laudable work done by the competent, capable and effective boards and executive management at Eskom and Transnet cast serious doubts on the EFF’s claim that there are attempts to systematically destruct

... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you so much, Chairperson. [Time expired.]



Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, today I stand on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party to address a matter of utmost agency and national importance: The systematic destruction of state enterprises and the imperative need for urgent steps to reposition the state as the primary driver of development. Our nation has witnessed the concerning trend, the gradual dismantling and deterioration of state enterprises that were once the backbone of our economic stability and developmental aspirations.


These entities designed to serve the public interest, have faced challenges ranging from mismanagement and corruption to neglect and the lack of strategic foresight. The consequences of the systematic destruction of state enterprises are far reaching and multifaceted. From economic decline and loss of employment opportunities through the erosion of public trust, the repercussions are felt by every citizen.

The time has come for us as representatives of the people to engage in a robust debate on how to reverse this trend and restore the state’s pivotal role in driving development.

Firstly, it is imperative to acknowledge that the state enterprises play a crucial role in shaping our national economy. From energy production to transportation, these entities have the potential to be catalyst for economic growth, innovation and social upliftment.



However, to unlock their full potential, we must address the root causes of their decline. The IFP contends that their decline stems from a toxic combination of mismanagement, corruption and neglect. To reverse this trend, we must embark on a comprehensive and strategic intervention. Mismanagement and corruption have been cancers eating away at the core of state enterprises. We must advocate for stringent measures to ensure transparency, accountability and good governance.

Robust oversight mechanisms coupled with effective anti- corruption initiatives are paramount to restoring public confidence and salvaging these entities.


Secondly, neglect and the lack of strategic planning have left many state enterprises in a state of despair. It is imperative that we prioritise the allocation of resources, both financial

and human, to revitalise these entities. Strategic investments coupled with comprehensive turn around strategies are essential to reposition the state as the primary driver of development.


Moreover, the IFP calls for a paradigm shift towards prioritising the revitalisation of these institutions. Rather than viewing them solely through a profit driven lens, we must recognise their role in social development. By aligning their objectives with the broader national development agenda, we can ensure that these enterprises contribute meaningfully to poverty alleviation, job creation and social empowerment.



The IFP stands firm in its call for urgent steps to address the systematic destruction of state enterprises. As we debate this matter, let us collectively commit to fostering an environment where state enterprises can thrive, driving the development agenda and in securing a brighter future for our nation. In doing so, we safeguard the interests of our citizens and pave the way for a more prosperous and equitable South Africa. I thank you, hon House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon Hadebe. Hon Ryder? Hon Ryder, you must remember that the speakers’ list has been updated. Hon Ryder, you can start.


Mr D R RYDER: Hon House Chair, the Sadim Touch is a term given to the phenomenon where everything that you touch turns to waste. Observant members will note that it is merely a reverse spelling of the word Midas but will agree that it perfectly defines this government’s track record when it comes to state owned enterprises, SOEs. It doesn’t take too much research to see that all of the prominent state owned companies are in deep trouble caused by a combination of poor management and corruption at unprecedented scales.



The state exists to ensure that the whole of society is able to enjoy an acceptable standard of living. The state is required to intervene to do the work of providing necessary resources without a profit motive. State owned enterprises are intended to be sustainable, but not exploitatively profitable, providers of basic needs, massively capital-intensive shared resources or strategic goods. This is why basic transport, ports, some aspects of communication, electrical generation and arms manufacture have all found themselves under the blinded eye of Minister Gordhan. How is that working out?

Well, we only need to look at Minister Godongwana’s annual report of which drunk uncle has blown the credit card limit on excess to see that the state companies are floundering. The sad reality is that we only get to hear of the worst of the bunch but there are many more state owned entities, owned in all three spheres, who constantly require top up funding.



This is not because the areas in which they operate are unprofitable, it is just bad management compounded by the ANC’s need to provide work to unproductive card carrying members who seem to have incredible acumen for finding ways to milk the cash cows to death, but do not show the same acumen for the jobs which they were employed to do.



At this stage I must say that there are public servants in state owned entities still doing the good work of the just, and these rare individuals are saluted, but they are becoming fewer and fewer as the levels of toxicity in the SOEs increases. No, the work of SOEs is not unprofitable when properly managed, and one only has to look at the privately owned entities who have stepped in to provide similar services as some of the SOEs. Entities able to compete with SOEs, not only on quality, but also on price.

If the Post Office can’t run sustainably, how can a business like Postnet thrive in its 500-odd outlets? If Denel can’t pay their own way, how is it that DCD, Paramount and many other top players can run profitably and still spend heavily on research and development. No, the state has the Sadim Touch purely due to the greed and mismanagement of the connected few.


There is no way that we can double down on the failures of state by handing the state more power. The solution to the failing state owned entities lies not in Stalinist ideologies that have failed around the world, the solution lies in the emulation of the private sector - in cutting costs and boosting productivity.



The fallacy that this government has fallen for is that the upliftment of the people can be achieved by providing government sponsored jobs to a limited number of skills deficient people when in fact the upliftment of the majority can be far better achieved by building entities that perform the work aimed at achieving the greater good, in an efficient, sustainable and cost effective way, raising the standard of living of all in South Africa, using taxpayers money

efficiently so that there is enough left over to fund other acts of public good, and thereby drive economic growth.


This government has failed in this regard. This ideology is too far removed from theirs. As is the ideology of racist proposals of this debate. South Africans, the power to rescue South Africa lies with you. Woza [Come] 2024. Thank you.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, as the EFF, we take these types of debates very seriously because they map the way forward for the upcoming administration. The administration, which is going to be led by the EFF under the stewardship of the commander-in-chief and president Julius Malema. [Interjections.]



Ms N E NKOSI: You are dreaming!






Awunayo nezigceme. Unezigceme ezimbili. [Ubuwelewele.]





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members! Hon Nkosi! [Interjections.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: State-owned entities play a key role in promoting socioeconomic development by providing a wide range of products and services to the nation. They play an important role, firstly in terms of the direct service they provide such as access to water, electricity, proper housing, sanitation and transportation, and in this country, people's access to water, electricity, sanitation and transportation is almost entirely dependent on the state. State-owned enterprises play a critical role in the economy as they promote the role of the state and are instrumental to the national industrial policy, investment, research and innovation, when state-owned enterprises are properly organised, they are well positioned to deliver public goods and services such as water, electricity, housing, proper sanitation, uninterrupted electricity supply, telecommunication and transportation.



However, one finds that in this country the reality is quite different as there is a deliberate and systematic destruction of the state enterprises. There exists a recurring historical trend of neglect, mismanagement and non-investment which has posed a significant challenge to their sustainability and effectiveness. Almost all South African state-owned enterprises are in a state of despair, characterised by growing debts, dysfunctional management and the failure to

deliver on their mandate and this has been going on for well over a decade. There has been for years a deliberate destruction of all state-owned enterprises by all these ruling elites within the ruling party, which directly impacts the quality of lives of the citizens of South Africa in many forms, such as load shedding and basic services not reaching the greater population. The current challenges faced by the SOEs lie squarely in the vulnerability of being exploited by opportunistic politicians, and other people linked to top politicians within the ruling party. The exploitation is observed in their procurement processes as well as their deployment policy. Almost all these SOEs have faced mismanagement and allegations of corruption, irregularities in procurement processes and political interference in key appointments. These challenges have compromised their ability to make sound financial decisions, implement effective strategies and maintain public trust.



Mismanagement, inadequate strategic planning and a failure to adopt market changes have contributed to the financial losses and the growth of debt in almost all these state-owned entities. It is also concerning to note how the SOEs are now exempted from disclosing irregularities by the sitting government. It has been clear. For some time, there has

existed an endorsement of industrial-scale corruption by the National Treasury and the Minister of Finance, Mr Enoch Godongwana, under the leadership of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa in granting exemption to not only Eskom but also Transnet and possibly all state-owned enterprises from disclosing irregularities, fruitless expenditure and wasteful expenditure in their financial statements and annual ... [Inaudible.] ... and that alone is corruption. Under this ANC government, we have seen that. We have seen all corruption covered up and that includes corruption of Phala Phala and the money laundering of Phala Phala. How can the state-owned entities perform to their best abilities if the President ... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you [Time expired.]



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, fellow South Africans, firstly colleagues, I would like to thank the successful bus conductors for this debate, it has been quite something to see the shouting AI by the hon Hlabangwani, and it has been very interesting. As this debate is sponsored by the failed youth project of the ANC, I feel I must quote the document that fuels the fantasies of our friends, resplendent in their Jonssons Workwear.

Under the dramatic heading, the Freedom Charter says, “The people shall share in the country's wealth.” And promises two things: First of all, the national wealth of our country, the heritage of all South Africans, shall be restored to the people; Secondly, the mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and the monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole. Now the first promise is reasonable. Why shouldn’t South Africans share the wealth of the country? The second promise, to quote my colleague David Maynier, “is not only a bad idea, it’s a mad idea.”



To illustrate this, I will point out the difference in approach between the two countries both facing the potential of great wealth and how to achieve this. The contradiction of the juxtaposition of Norway and South Africa is illuminating. Essentially, the Norwegians found their first oil fields in the 1960s. They immediately realised that Norway, as essentially an agricultural country at that time, did not have the skills to exploit the potential wealth of the oil reserves. They wisely went to the private sector and offered the rights to explore and mine on condition that: Firstly, the private sector pay hefty taxes on their profits and secondly that Norwegians were employed and trained by the oil industry for approximately 30 years.

Then, this is crucial, instead of stealing the taxes they invested those funds into a sovereign fund that 60 years later is now worth $1,4 trillion, making it the largest in the world. The interest on the fund, the Norwegian government uses to balance the deficit every year. Can you believe that? And here’s the interesting bit, every Norwegian by birth right is a shareholder in the fund. So, through exploiting the private sector and not rejecting it, the Norwegians achieved the ideals of the Freedom Charter without succumbing to the temptation of meddling, corruption and destruction.



So what has happened in South Africa? In the run-up to 1994, the following happened. When Mr Mandela was released from prison in 1990, he told the ANC that he believed in the nationalisation of South African assets. He said, “The nationalisation of the mines, banks and monopoly industries is the policy of the ANC, and a change or modification of our views in this regard is inconceivable,” He said at the time.

He then went off to the World Economic Forum in Davos in 1992 and he chatted to his colleagues and communists from Vietnam and China, and they said, no, don’t do that, we have tried it and it failed. He came back and had to tell his comrades this and they regarded him as a sell-out and were very angry.

To keep the peace, Mr Mandela was forced into a compromise with Mr Mbeki, they weren’t Presidents then so I am referring to them at that time, no disrespect, and the compromise was cadre deployment. A completely human ... and I understand the point. you have to reward the people who were involved in the struggle, but the problem is how it worked out. It worked out into a kakistocracy filled with akrasia-infected sycophants which has led to an incapable state which has created the perfect environment for corruption. To summarise, we all agree that South Africans should share the wealth of the country.

The trick is that the private sector should be exploited to make that a reality.



At least our ANC colleagues have realised that they have run out of money and now have to rely on the private sector. The notion of using the state to fix what the state has broken is simply deluded. The current situation at the Durban harbour caused by Transnet is a recent example of this. Why would the same state fix the state? Where will the EFF find these new amazing skills to fix the state? Even the trucking sector knows this. The sooner the state realises their job is to create an environment for success the better. The DA will stick to these parameters when we take over in 2024 we will

govern to the benefit of South Africans. We are not going anywhere, Chairperson, we are here.











ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Ungena nobani ngempela?




Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister Bapela, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I really and truly welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate and wish to state that we have been down a similar path before. While the EFF argues in favour of state fundamentalism, the DA and FF Plus have jumped up and down in the previous debate, arguing for the private sector to lead development. Not only are these positions polarising, but both are short-sighted. One covers the head and the other covers the legs. What happens to the rest of the body? I’m sure both parties don’t care. To both the DA and the FF Plus ...




... miskien moet ek in Afrikaans sê dat albei posisies kort komberse is.




We have been at our wits’ end trying to educate the EFF, FF Plus and the DA that nothing beats a middle road approach. But they do not seem to be listening. They are hell-bent on promoting extremism. This has not done our country any good in the past and will not do so now or in the future. Today’s debate is unbalanced. Only the ANC is approaching this debate more than objectively, while the EFF and other opposition parties view any government effort to restructure state-owned enterprises, SOE, with scepticism. If not downright with contempt.



Hon Bapela, hon Mkiva, and mama, were very objective in presenting the position of the ANC. The implicit assumption of the sentence “Urgent action is needed to reposition the state as the primary engine of development” is that the role of the state in development is either non-existent, dysfunctional or even marginalised. This implicit assumption reflects the EFF state’s left-wing hegemony that state control over economic and social affairs is necessary for economic success.

The implication of this is that the state must be in control of SOEs to drive economic and sustainable development.

Henceforth, anything other than total state control of SOEs, according to the EFF, is a capitalist conspiracy against the poor and working class in which the state and the private sector is conspiring against the poor and the working class. The reality is that the left wing of the EFF, which places the state at the centre of development through total control of SOEs, has, if anything, only tried to function. What is often hidden from the EFF is that the statist left hegemony is the deeper cause of our SOEs problems and inadequacy to develop long-term strategies for meeting the infrastructural development and gross fixed capital formation agenda.



As the ANC, we reject the left-wing hegemony because it ignores a huge range of possibilities for economic development through joint efforts between the public and private sectors. In short, public-private partnerships can deliver progressive outcomes, hon members. In fact, the private partnership as outlined in the Presidential Review Committee on SOEs and the Economic Restructuring and Recovery Plan, ERRP, can provide an impetus to the efforts geared towards restructuring and turnaround plans of SOEs on one hand and act as a useful tool

on the expansion of infrastructure development and gross fixed capital formation on the other hand.


Hon members, just to illustrate, there is no evidence that the inefficiencies and weaknesses in the electricity market have constrained infrastructure development and gross fixed capital for machines. In particular, the electricity market is plagued by numerous challenges, including the inability of Eskom to generate enough electricity to offset the growth, which has resulted in periodic stages of load-shedding. We accept shortcomings like short or load-shedding. We can’t defend that, we come to an understanding when facts are put on the table.



The harmful effects of load shedding on households and businesses make the restructuring of Eskom a priority of the state. To this end, the state has embarked on a series of sequential steps to unbundle Eskom into three divisions responsible for generation, transmission and distribution, as part of affecting the comprehensive restructuring and reforming initiative in Eskom.



Hon members, the same objective goals of the unbundling of Eskom include incentivising greater competition in the

generation and distribution function, which do not require a large investment in infrastructure in the transmission function. As such, the unbundling of income increases, and the entry of renewable energy resources through independent power producers, IPPs, in the generation and distribution networks of the South African electricity market. However, all these hinge upon the implementation of the Electricity Regulation, Act, ERA. Nevertheless, the upshot is that the unbundling of Eskom attempts to open the South African electricity market to competition, while the state retains electricity price control through the National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa.


Retaining electricity price control contradicts the EFF’s flawed assumption that the role of the state in development has withered away. In a nutshell, retaining electricity price control is a classic example of a state playing an active role in managing economic and social development. This, of course, is a contradictory position. At least, according to the DA, retaining electricity price control runs counter to the objective of opening South Africa and the electricity market. The crux of the DA’s argument is that deregulation of electricity tariffs is not only economically efficient but also politically sensible in that it minimises the very same possibility that public representatives can use the state as a

vehicle to promote their own self-interest at the cost of the public. Such a view has been reinforced by palpable mismanagement of state assets and corruption in most state institutions, not least only SOEs.


The ANC’s approach to the unbundling of Eskom is dissimilar to the DA’s faith in flawless markets. Our approach is dissimilar because, unlike the DA, the ANC is not ignorant of the widespread incidents of market failures across the world. In short, the deregulation of electricity tariffs as proposed by the DA is more likely to allow IPPs to make super profits, thereby increasing the share of income accruing directly to the private sector at the expense of the poor and the working- class customers. Overall, the unbundling of Eskom accelerates the economic restructuring and recovery plan priority to crowd in additional private investment to increase the much-needed generation capacity.



Perhaps most interestingly, the unbundling of Eskom strengthened efforts to attract private sector investment in the delivery of the geographic and energy strategic integrated project as part of building a broad-based public-private partnership, PPP, thus improving infrastructure development

and gross fixed capital formation in the country. As expected, you never fail hon members to go to the extreme.


One thing we need to learn in this debate is that it is possible to come here as members of this House and have a fruitful debate without insulting each other. What I have observed from the outset, hon Magwala, is that we are not discussing individuals, but the topic, as you have raised a very important subject. I am not going to stand here and undermine every member who has taken part in the debate. I will deal with the issue.



When hon Nhanha took the floor, I thought it was about Venezuela. On the way, I got lost and realised that every time an opportunity presented itself, they missed it. I listened to hon Brauteseth before he took the podium when he was sitting there as the EFF member was debating, and he asked a critical question. What is the solution? I expected him to present the solution when he got the chance. But when he was here, nothing was presented as a solution, which shows that you don’t understand the magnitude and the challenges that South Africa is facing.

This is a very important point that I would like to make. I know that Mr Magwala will be coming to close the debate, as he has opened it. The problem we will face is the biggest communication problem. You are not listening to understand and I am speaking now, you are only listening to respond, not to understand what we are putting forward, and that will be his biggest problem. I have a message I would like to give to all members as advice to those who come here and want to insult people who do not get a chance to respond. A friend of mine has a sticker on his car that says the following, and I quote:



Never try to destroy someone’s life with a lie, when yours can be destroyed with the truth.



Hon members, the restructuring of Eskom, Transnet, Denel, SABC and/or Safcol shows that the EFF’s assumption that the role of the state in development has diminished is in no way comprehensible or ascertainable.


Hon members, since we have tried to clarify ANC members, right. by mama, hon Mkiva, the Deputy Minister, why even the Minister is not part of the debate today is with the President, as we have seen what was launched yesterday in KwaZulu-Natal Province. We should actually be proud of what

happened yesterday because we are here as the National Council of Provinces representing the interests of those very provinces. Our role as hon members is to do oversight, pass laws, make this legislation and deal with public participation, but not to come here and grandstand and insult each other. To conclude, the restructuring of SOEs has nothing to do with withdrawing the state from economic and ... [Interjections.] ...



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Point of order, Chair!



AN HON MEMBER: Kubo baba!




Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, I would like to know if hon Nyambi would like to take a question.



AN HON MEMBER: No, no, we don’t have time for questions.




Mr A J NYAMBI: With pleasure, with pleasure.





Moh O MOKAUSE: O swabile, Mthimunye. O swabile.


The CHAIRPERSON OF the NCOP: What’s your question, hon member?

Mr A J NYAMBI: Let’s hope you have it.




Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I would like to ask hon Nyambi if he can tell me if any Section

76 Bill has ever been amended in the NCOP based on the interest of the provinces.



Mr A J NYAMBI: ... I expected that you would only disrupt the flow of my speech. You have no question. You are asking an irrelevant question that has nothing to do with what we are debating. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and leave no doubt. In conclusion, I would like to say that the restructuring of SOEs has nothing to do with the withdrawal of the state from the economic and social sphere and therefore cannot be defined as an attempt to destroy SOEs. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Ms L C BEBEE: Malibongwe! Thank you, baba! I love you, baba!




Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, baba!




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwala, close the debate, please.

Mr I NTSUBE: You can close the debate now, we are done! Yes!




An HON MEMBER: The debate is done, we can close.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hai, you are nothing!




Mr I NTSUBE: We can close the debate now. We are done speaking.



An HON MEMBER: We were better than you.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hai, we will not be addressed by such corrupt people.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let us give hon Magwala a chance to close the debate.




Nksz N NDONGENI: Hayi kungenzeka ubaleke kwamasipala ngoku uzenza qham-qhutsu apha.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwala, close the debate. Please, close the debate, hon Magwala.

Mr I NTSUBE: We don’t know what hon Magwala will be saying now because all the issues had been explored.


Mr M J MAGWALA: Order, Chair.






Nksz N NDONGENI: Uxakiwe ngoku, ngesele esenyuka ngamehlo.



Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson ...




Mr I NTSUBE: They don’t have issues, Chair!




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motsamai, hon Motsamai! We really do need a disciplined approach. So, I will order you to sit down. Please, sit down. Hon Magwala.



Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all the members that have debated here and said nothing at all, especially the last speaker that came here and grandstand. He came here and grandstand, they think that we are in a rally somewhere there in Mpumalanga trying to convince the millions of South Africans again to give the ANC another chance next year, which they have been given for more

than 30 years. There is nothing that anyone can do to save the ANC.


Chairperson, I just want to respond to the member that is permanently on virtual, Mkiva, that he must not come and sing for his supper to come back to the NCOP next year. He must debate what is on the Table. Hon Nhanha, hon Jomo has already answered you. Mama-B, you have tried your best to cook what you know that the ANC has failed. You have tried your best Mama-B. You tried to change this thing but the cookingness will never happen.



Chairperson, the EFF is deeply concerned that under the leadership of Cyril Matamela Ramaphosa the state centralised in the presidency is being turned into a personal playground where transparency, accountability and good governance principles are thrown out of the window. The plans to hide industrial scales looting of state-owned enterprises assets suggests that three years down the line we would be told that these state-owned enterprises are not functional and privatisation will be justified.



Today we have witnessed how that could come about as the opposition has spent the day session arguing that the private

sector is innovative and strategic in development. However, this is not true as the said advantages of private sector can be achieved by a public sector with a robust management. The insufficiency in the state-owned enterprises are issues that can be addressed through reform rather than outright destruction. Chairperson, the private sector can never be given a platform to be the key developer of the economic growth in South Africa because its primary incentive is profit, which will lead to neglecting of services that are essential but less profitable such as those in remote or economically disadvantaged areas.


Development should be driven by aspirations of the people as policies are set up by the government which directly represent the people not by the private sector. The government is voted by the people through a democratic election process and hence their policies are primarily mandated by the demands of the people. The incentives of a private sector are not bound by the inspiration of the people but rather goals of its board.

Urgent steps are needed to reposition the state. This can be done by addressing the challenges faced in state-owned enterprises which requires comprehensive reform, improve governance, strategic planning and a commitment to

transparency and accountability to ensure the long term sustainability of state enterprises in South Africa.


Our proposal is not mere restructuring it is a visionary overhauling incapacitated government, strategic reinvestment and capacity building. Through these measures we aim not just for improvement but for a transformation that will position our state-owned enterprises as drivers of the development and engines of the economic growth. As the EFF, will call for transparent process where leadership position within the state enterprises are filled on basis of skills, qualification and experience. This is a fundamental and fairest culture of competence and professionalism. We also call for disclosure of standards and conduct of regular performance assessment which are essential components of our government reform.



Transparent reporting and accountability assessment will provide stakeholders with a clear picture of the state enterprises operation and ensure leadership is held accountable to achieving strategic goals. In summary, the systematic decline of South Africa’s state-owned enterprises has profound economic and social impact and marked by neglect, mismanagement and disinvestment. Today as the EFF, we have urged against privatisation emphasising the need for an urgent

step to reposition the state as the primary driver of development.


This step includes governance reforms, transparent processes, reinvestment in critical sectors and capacity building for a global competitive workforce. The goal is to transform the state enterprises into engines of economic growth and competitively addressing the current challenges and fostering a long term sustainability. Lastly, we urge all South Africans to register to vote. Vote for the EFF in the upcoming election so that they are better positioned ... [Interjections.] ...



Mr I NTSUBE: ... they will vote for the ANC again ...




Mr M J MAGWALA: ... to challenge the blatant and disgrounded transparency and accountability. It is now important than ever for all ground forces committed to genuine democracy and good governance in South Africa to unite and fight against ... [Inaudible.] ... of constitutional values and ... [Interjections.] ...




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Niza kuvotelwa ngabemi bangaphandle.

Mr I NTSUBE: ... Okay, okay, you are done and your time is up, okay.




Nksz N NDONGENI: Aninaye nomaspala omnye kodwa nithi niza kuphatha umbuso. Hayi, uyadlala.



Mr I NTSUBE: ... supreme leader, people!



Mr M J MAGWALA: ... one party, one party only that can transform these state-owned enterprises is the EFF. Come 2024, we will make sure that no ... [Interjections.] ... or privatisation of these companies and we will make sure that we fire all these boards that you are praising so much that they are doing so good. We will make sure that Eskom ... [Interjections.] ...




ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: [Uwele-wele] ... phi eZimbabwe? Ngabemi bangaphandle benu.




Mr I NTSUBE: ... your time is up now ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As you conclude, hon member.




Mr M J MAGWALA: We will make sure that the ANC will never see light again in taking over this country.


Mr I NTSUBE: ... your time is up now ...




Mr M J MAGWALA: ... we must make sure that next year 2024 in May, we vote for free load shedding, we vote for free corruption. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, on a point of order, Chair.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members ...




Mr I NTSUBE: There can’t be a point of order we are done with the debate. There is no point of order!



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order, Chair.


Mr I NTSUBE: There is no point of order we are done with the debate, mam Mokause. We are done with the debate.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, I am rising on a point of order.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members ...

Mr I NTSUBE: It is late.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order!


Mr I NTSUBE: It is a late intelligence. You are late.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members ...


Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, remember that we have a responsibility ...


Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... to respect the Rules of the House. We have a responsibility to respect and abide by the laws of the country.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, on a point of order.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... Constitution ..

Mr I NTSUBE: ... the Chair is speaking. The Chair is ruling.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, on a point of order. Oh! the Table staff can mute me but they can’t mute the ANC!

Mr I NTSUBE: The Chair is speaking.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: The Table staff can mute us but the ANC can speak as they wish! Is that how you behave?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... to conduct ourselves in keeping with ... [Interjections.] ... collectively being the public representatives. There has been a very good attempt today to really get us on the straight and narrow and to ensure that we do the right thing. Of course, the issues you pursued as was indicated earlier on those matters that requires our special attention in relation to matters related to discipline, hon Hlabangwana.

Hon members that concludes the debate. Allow me at this point to thank the Deputy Minister, hon Bapela, for his presence and participation. The same appreciation goes to members of the executive council, MECs, the special delegates for availing themselves. The House is now adjourned.



Debate Concluded.



The Council adjourned at 18:40.