Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 25 Oct 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 25 OCTOBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15:01.
The House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members will recall that during questions to Ministers in the Economics Cluster, questions to the Minister of Small Business Development stood over in terms of Rule 144(1). These questions now appear on today’s Question Paper under the same cluster. Consequently, an additional 30 minutes will be added to today’s Question Time for this purpose, as provided for in terms of Rule 137(5)(b).
The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster 5: Economics. There are four
supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, among others, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so, due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.
The first question has been asked by the hon N E Dlamini to the Minister of Public Enterprises. The hon Minister.
QUESTIONS - CLUSTER 5: ECONOMICS
Question 556:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon, hon House Chairperson and good afternoon to the hon members. I thank the
hon Dlamini for his question and has the following to say: Transnet has developed a master plan for the Port of Durban aiming to reposition Durban as a contempt container hub port with a capacity of approximately 11,3 million ... [Inaudible.]
... use over the next decade or so.
Key investments include birth deepening to accommodate larger vessels planned to be completed in 2029 and the redevelopment of point as a container terminal. These developments are driven by growth in volumes and increase maritime connectivity in the region. However, South African ports as we know, handle domestic Transnet tranship cargo and now face competition from port developments in Namibia, Mozambique and Tanzania. Growth in these ports has led to significant maritime connectivity, while the Durban port has stagnated for a while.
The master plan will assist us to overcome some of the interest infrastructure challenges that Durban has been experiencing and of course, also the deterioration in the state of equipment available at the port. Volumes handled by the terminals have steadily declined by 4% year-on-year, since 2017-18, with only R1,67 million ... [Inaudible.] ... handled by the terminal in the year 2022. In contrast, some of the
competing ports have seen 50% growth in what they are handling.
The current private sector participation process, which is not privatisation, only involves Pier 2 and not all container terminals have the Port of Durban. The Durban Container Terminal, DCT, Pier 2 being the largest container terminal in the Port of Durban with a handling capacity of two point one million ... [Inaudible.] ... per annum forms an integral part of the container Segment Revitalisation Plan and is expected to grow to 4,4 million tonnes as per the Port Master Plan.
In respect of the second pressure part of the question, the board and management are working closely with the trade unions to improve operations and productivity at port and rail.
Similarly, the Transnet board of directors and executives, in collaboration with the department and National Treasury have developed a Transnet Recovery Plan to give effect to immediate short and long-term reforms in the business at the port. Once finalised, the plan will be implemented and supported by the National Logistics Crisis Committee established by the President and outcomes will be closely monitored to ensure the operational and financial viability and sustainability of the business. Improvement is critical to the national economy, and
we are committed to supporting and reforming in the interests of South Africa. I am confident that with these changes, the entity can radically improve its performance in the medium- term. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr N E DLAMINI: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you for the response. Hon Minister, according to the advert by Transnet inviting the private sector to participate at DCT Pier 2, Transnet had invested money expanding DCT Pier 2 to comfort the use capacity and the maximum permissible 2,5 and at Pier 1 is what the maximum is 5,4, while it is developed at 0,95 TE use. Why is it that the private sector was not invited to participate at Pier 1, so that we leverage on their money to expand capacity at Pier 1, seeing that we have invested a lot of money at Pier 2, the only short at 100 000 TE use to reach maximum capacity? Hon House Chairperson, thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson, and the hon Dlamini, as I indicated the ambition for the Durban Port is that it should become and remain for decades to come and for future generations the main container port as far as South Africa is concerned and Southern Africa as well.
Secondly, there is as I said, a port development plan which involves not just the interior of the port and the various piers, but also the surrounding area around the port as well. We want to thank the Ethekwini Municipality for their co- operation in allowing Transnet to actually ring-fence the port and put up new security provisions around the port as well.
The private sector will be invited from time to time in this instance at Pier 2 to assist in reaching the kind of ambitious volumes that have been set. And at the moment I am not in a position to say why the one was chosen and not the other. That is these are choices that we leave to the Transnet management and the Transnet board as well. However, let us keep in mind the overall objectives. The overall objective is to grow the volume, is to deepen the port is to enable these new vessels which carry much larger volumes of containers around the world, to be able to enter the Durban Port, which they cannot do at the moment and thereby increase the volumes that the port can actually handle and provide a service both to the South African economy and the surrounding economy as well. In that way Durban becomes increasingly more competitive compared to its neighbouring countries. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chairperson and Minister, you are fully aware that the Durban Port is one of the busiest in the
country in fact, it was a flagship in Southern Africa. The question is: What are the delays in getting the Indonesian concessionaire to the Durban Port on board and operational? What is being now, Minister now to ensure that containers are being effectively moved to avoid backlogs which have built up due to the current inefficiencies and this, of course, as you know, is costing the fiscus under your watch? Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Essack should pose to you one question. You have an option. I am saying there are two questions that have been posed to you which is not acceptable and I am sure you are welcome.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: As part of our generosity. Durban will, if we implement the plan effectively and efficiently and find the capital to do so, which I am sure we will over time remain one of the busiest ports in the Southern hemisphere, and it will also gain in efficiency and effectiveness in areas where it has dropped its performance.
Secondly, it is not Indonesia is Philippines. Hon Essack I am not sure what the internal issues are, but we will try and find out why some of the delays are actually occurring in
terms of bringing in the partner at Pier 2, which is currently scheduled for April 2024, but an additional issue which impacts on the port which impacts on the kind of service that can be provided is, firstly, the floods which impacted on the what is called the Nedcor or the container corridor between Ethekwini and Durban Port and the City Deep in Gauteng and there is a huge amount of damage. However, some of which has been repaired, some of which still needs to be repaired. There are communities that are coming to close to the railway lines and I have seen that for myself as well. However there is also a huge amount of vandalism in respect of copper cables and other forms of signalling equipment being as well. So, at the moment the cost to the fiscus is not a serious one the cost to the fiscus is more on the coal line, ore line, all of which under the recovery plan that the board has prepared Meko to see eliminated within the next 12 months or so. So, we will ensure that the partners come on as soon as possible. But more importantly, we need to do some creative financing to find additional cranes at the port site, to find work with the unions to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the workforce in those areas and to make them a lot more aware of the kind of competition that they face from now ports that did not exist in the form that they exist in at the moment. So, if we want to be competitive, we must actually up our performance
and supply them with the equipment that is necessary in order to be able to do so. Thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, challenges at the Port of Durban are primarily technical and structural. The need for structural changes was evident in the World Bank report that was published in May of 2021 which ranked the Ports of Cape Town, Ngqura, Gqeberha and Durban as four of the worst ports in the world in terms of operational efficiency. Back in 2016 Transnet introduced a state-of-the- art port security system valued at R843 million to safeguard customer cargo, port users as well as Transnet-owned port assets, high definition cameras across the various sites. How many of these cameras are still operational and effective and whether their installation has contributed in operational efficiency and if yes, may the Minister please elaborate?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, House
Chairperson and thanks to hon the Meshoe, the World Bank report is one that we are familiar with and it is always good to have independent players to be invited, to actually give us their critique of what is going well and what is not going well and we would welcome those sorts of critics to assist us
and assist Transnet in improving their performance. Secondly, Transnet is aware of that report and within limited financial means that they have at their disposal they are attending to many of the recommendations that are made in the report itself.
The decline that the hon Meshoe talks about to the various ports can be attributed to the state capture process to the fact that money was diverted from issues like maintenance of equipment and even buying of certain equipment in favour of the 1 064 locomotive deal for example. That diversion are the consequences that we are suffering today and which we are very determined to overcome.
Hon House Chairperson, on the issue of the cameras I am not too familiar to how many are working and how many are not, but I will certainly make some enquiries as the hon Meshoe has insisted we find those details. So ultimately we are, and you will find me repeating this quite often, we have assigned to the board key responsibilities. We want to find recovery in the performance of Transnet whether its ports, rail or any other aspect of the key functions that they provide to this economy.
We are going to be intolerant to the lack of performance and in terms of ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, I am sorry about that.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Should I continue?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The information and communication technology, ICT, will attend to that.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Alright.
That is the one point I want to make. That is the recovery plan as we begin to implement it eventually from 1 November onwards, we will see improvements on all the different fronts. As I have said earlier on, we need some creative financing that will enable Transnet to access the additional equipment that it actually requires. We are working on that as well.
Thank you.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon House Chairperson, it is N L S. Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, you are most probably aware that there was an issue recently of drug smuggling at the port where there was a discovery of about R70 million worth of cocaine. Now you have highlighted the importance of implementing new security measures as we build capacity of the port.
What multidisciplinary or departmental measures are being put in place to ensure that we firstly prevent smuggling of drugs at the port which are a security issue and other counterfeit goods to make sure that the South African market is not flooded by counterfeit goods and goods that should not reach our shores? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Kwankwa, I think we must draw a distinction between the infrastructure responsibilities that various entities within the Transnet family have and the services that they provide from the responsibilities of several other departments that operate from the ports environment. In particular the SA Police were responsible for detecting those drugs coming in that you have referred to.
However, more importantly when it comes to counterfeit goods the SA Revenue Service has a customs component which has increasingly performed well in trying to get advanced intelligence and trying to detect consignments of counterfeit goods and smuggling of things like cigarettes which play an important part in the underground economy in South Africa even to the extent of funding other types of activities that some of us might actually be familiar with.
So, I think the key with the establishment of the Border Management Authority, BMA, in the Department of Home Affairs is going to be how we integrate the work and the information that each of the deferent departments have. Secondly, ensure that there is a higher level of co-ordination and cohesion in terms of setting up the detection mechanisms, but also the responses that will ensure that we increase the risk of detection. Then once there is the risk of detection of illegal activity invariably the illegal activity begins to become constrained as well.
So, it is the work in progress. I think as we go on the BMA will be able to ensure that these deferent entities work together. From the chance inside as I side for a port like Durban there is a whole lot of infrastructure development
around the port that will also assist in ensuring that we control entry into and exit from the port amongst other security features as well. However, all of that is in the developmental stage now. Thank you.
Question 582:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Members of Parliament. The department supports the taxi industry on various issues affecting the latter. In the recent past the department held a taxi lekgotla where a number of these resolutions were taken. Key amongst them is the formalisation of the industry in order to support participation in mainstream public transport. As part of the implementation strategy the department established a joint technical task team. The joint technical task team, JTT, was tasked with the responsibility of guiding and overseeing the implementation of the resolutions. The following achievements have been recorded thus far.
Firstly, we are formalising the taxi industry while implementation of the revised taxi recapitalisation programme is happening. The development of an inclusive subsidy policy is also being undertaken. Furthermore in this regard, we are establishing the taxi recapitalisation of South Africa which
is a corporative company where the entity is 60% owned by the taxi industry and the remaining 40% belonging to a strategic partner. This entity has either commenced in some areas and in others will be commencing soon. It has the following responsibilities. Firstly, to automate fair collection solution to ensure that there are containers, retailers, spare solutions, the mobile application, APP, which is Siyahamba, alternative fuel, liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, solutions and also a 24 hours service centre. This is already happening.
Thank you very much.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Chair and Minister. Minister, the most recent statistics show that the minibus taxi industry is the dominant mode of public transport in South Africa, transporting over 60% of public transport users. And quite literally, our country would grind to a halt if not the minibus taxi industry. Too many regard the taxi industry, in my view, as an informal business and you have just yourself referred to formalising it. It is a highly regulated mode of transport requiring licenses, convincing planning authorities on a number of licenses and planning authorities guiding its routes. It can hardly be regarded as an informal industry or an informal mode of public transport. Most of the conflicts that arise between the industry and the authorities arises out
of operating licenses and routes. The planning authorities determine the supply and demand as if the industry is incapable of doing so for itself. This is a paternalistic sort of an outdated mode of determining how many operating licenses should be granted to each minibus taxi route.
On the other hand, Minister, when e-hailing arrived in South Africa operators like Uber were given an opportunity to present business plans and convince the planning authorities on how many licenses should be granted based on their anticipated supply and demand.
Minister, is it not time that we change the licensing regime in order for the minibus taxi industry to have a greater say in the supply and demand models that planning authorities are using in order to determine the number of licenses that should be given in each route? This wouldn’t be a great way to support the growth of that industry? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much for the question. Hon member, I agree fully with you that most of the commuters in South Africa, in fact 70%, choose the taxi industry as a mode of transport. It is also true that before an operator is granted an operating license there must be
consultation. It would create a lot of f challenges if you don’t have an operating license because it would mean that anyone can operate anywhere. You have said that many of the conflicts that we see emanate from the routes and from the other people who may not even have the operating licences operating on routes. I think what we have to emphasise is to ensure that those that issue operating licenses do consult before they issue an operating license. Sometimes it leads to delay and then you find that the taxi industry starts to operate even without an operating license.
But I think where the provincial regulating entities are in control and they do their work on time, there aren’t challenges as much as probably as we might be saying.
Sometimes there are delays and we then have problems where people get their cars impounded when they don’t have operating licences. Sometimes it is not because of the taxi industry, but because of the provincial regulatory entities, PREs, that do not issue the taxi operating licences on time. It is a matter that we can look into if you so wish. Thank you.
Ms M M RAMADWA: Thank you, hon House Chair. Thank you, hon Minister for your response. Minister, what intervention have the Minister and the department made to reduce the conflict
between the taxi industry and the Western Cape provincial government and the City of Cape Town? What are the outcomes if any? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much. The conflict between the taxi industry in the Western Cape, particularly in the Metro, emanated from operating licenses that are cross referencing another legislation, which is the National Roads Traffic Act, whose sanctions do not carry impoundment, but because they are cross referencing, they then add a sanction, impoundment, that is not in the National Road Traffic Act.
That was the issue.
What we did is that we wrote to the MEC, MEC Mackenzie, and he responded to us well on time. He indicated that he himself was seeking a legal opinion on the matter. We already had a legal opinion from the senior counsel which agreed with us and also a legal opinion from the drafters of the National Land Transport Act, NLTA, who also agreed with us. Of course, he said he was seeking a legal opinion, he got it and it fundamentally disagreed with us. Therefore, what we have said is that our National Public Transport Regulator, NPTR, must look into the matter and see if it could come up with standard operating procedures for all the National Public Transport
Regulators, NPTRs, so that this could be done. Of course, this will include the Western Cape as well the other provinces because what is happening here must also happen there.
We believe that what we need to do as a department as a way of resolving this matter and probably the ambiguity in the legislation itself, is to amend section 87(1) of the National Transport Act. Otherwise, our view is that the conditions of the operating license must be informed by the National Land Transport Act and not cross reference to another legislation and add a sanction that is not in the National Road Traffic Act which does not have anything that refers to impoundment, but because it is now used as a conditions then it includes impoundment. Thank you very much.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: Thank you very much, I will take the question. Thank you, Chair and Minister. The wish list is quite remarkable and rude, but it is a fact that the taxi industry is a crucial mode of transport for black people that has been neglected by the government of the ANC. Many promises have been made to formalise the industry since 1997. There has been numerous imbizos with zero political steps. Can the ANC government for the last time give us the date and time of the
implementation of the support or subsidy for the taxi industry?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much. It is not correct to say, we have not done anything about the taxi industry. For the mere fact that we have the SA National Taxi Council, Santaco, is a product of government intervention. The SA National Taxi Council, Santaco, is not just an association, but it is a council that is why we are moving towards ensuring that Santaco operates as a council and not as an association. I think you understand the difference between the two.
Secondly, with the issue of subsidy, the subsidisation policy in South Africa has always been directed towards some and leaving out others. So, it is not only the taxi industry that is affected. What we are doing therefore is that, firstly, we are coming up with a policy that is already to go to Cabinet for public consultation. Also, we are ensuring that now subsidisation is not directed to a company but is directed to passengers. If that is the case, then even the passengers who use the taxi industry will benefit and therefore the taxi industry will benefit.
Whilst we are waiting for that we are looking at, like I’ve said, formalising the taxi industry. The company that I talked about, the Taxi Recapitalisation South Africa, TRSA, where the taxi industry will own 60% of the company and of course we get a partner who will own the 40%. What it means is that it is going to establish your garages where it is going to pour its petrol instead of going to the garages that are already existing. That is already happening.
The issue of the container retail spare solutions is already happening in some areas. We want to extend it to the whole South Africa. There are things that are happening.
But you will also understand the history of the taxi industry where it comes from. You will also understand that you cannot just bring the changes willingly, but you have to take one step forwards, sometimes forward and take two steps backwards. But we are getting there, and we are happy that the sector now is willing to move forward, and we are moving forward. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu K P SITHOLE: Angibonge, Sihlalo, ngibonge kakhulu kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, engicela ukubuza kumhlonishwa
uNgqongqoshe ukuthi, inking ekhona la eKapa ukuthi amatekisi ayathathwa nje ngaphandle kokuthi umnikazi azi, ngaphandle kokuthi umshayeli azi ukuthi izoboshwa. Manje ngicela ukubheka lapho ukuthi uNgqongqoshe ikhona yini indlela ayenzayo ukulungisa lesi simo esilana eKapa ngoba yisimo esingahluphi la eKapa kuphela sithanda ukuthinta nezinye izifundazwe nokusebenzisana phakathi kukaHulumeni ne-Santaco kanye ne-NTA ngoba ngibona i-NTA njalo isala ngaphandle. Ngiyathokoza
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Siyabonga kakhulu mhlonishwa, iKapa lisitshele kanye nemboni yamatekisi isitshelile ukuthi okwamanje bahleli phansi ndawonye basakhulumisana, sikuqaphe kakhulu lokho ukuthi leyo nkulumo izogcina ifikelela kuphi nokuthi isivumelwano sayo sisemthethweni yini ngoba umangabe mina ngishayela emgwaqeni ngiwela umugqa ovimbelayo ngiyahlawuliswa noma ngiboshwe. Lokho kumele kusebenze kumuntu oshayela itekisi, kufanele kusebenze kumuntu oshayela iloli, kufanele kusebenze kumuntu oshayela ibhasi. Entshonalanga Koloni basebenzisa lokho ukuthi mina uma ngiwela umugqa ovimbelayo ngiyahlawuliswa noma ngingaboshwa kodwa ematekisini uyahlawuliswa, uboshwe kuboshwe nesithuthi. Akukho lokho kwi- National Road Traffic Act le yokuboshwa kwesithuthi, bayongeza njengombandela.
English:
That is where we disagree.
IsiZulu:
Bayongeza njengombandela ekwilayisensi yokusebenza kodwa bacaphune kwi-National Road Traffic Act kodwa bayifake njengombandela.
English:
That is where we disagree fundamentally with them. Like I am saying we do have legal opinions from the senior counsel and even from the drafters of the National Land Transport Act.
What we have done ...
IsiZulu:
... sikhulumisene nabo bathe bahleli basakhulumisana sase sithi asiyivume leyo nqubo uma besakhulumisana kodwa silindele ukwazi umphumela waleyo nkulumo ukuthi uma ungekho emthethweni vele kufanele sithathe ezinye izindlela. Ngoba sengishilo sesithathe kwi-National Transport Regulator mayibe ibhala phansi ukuthi yini ekufanele yenziwe. Kodwa ekugcineni siyabona ukuthi kungenzeka ukuthi kukhona mhlawumbe ukungaqondisisi kahle ingxenye ethile ye-National Land Transport Act. Kwi-National Road Traffic Act alikho igama
elithi “makuboshwe isithuthi” uma uwufunda wonke kuphela liku- National Land Transport Act. Ngakhoke imibandela kufanele ahambisane ne-National Land Transport Act hhayi ukuthatha indawo ye-National Road Traffic Act ayilethe kwi-National Land Transport Act. Ngiyabonga.
IsiXhosa:
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Malibongwe, uyicacise kakuhle mama.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Mhlonishwa u-Kwankwa! Mhlonishwa u-Kwankwa.
IsiXhosa:
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Uxolo, Sihlalo, ndiyaxolisa...
English:
... Chairperson. My apologies, Sir.
Question 557:
The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: House Chair,
thanks to hon Monakedi for the question, which really deals with two issues: the one is economic concentration in South
Africa and its impact on businesses; and the second one is the measures taken by government.
So, if I start by saying that there are five areas of response that I want to highlight within the available time. The first one is the measures directly to deconcentrate the economy.
Parliament passed a package of measures through the Competition Amendment Act. It provides significant powers to the Competition Authority and it’s allowed us to have market inquiries into, for example, grocery retail in shopping malls. The big players: Spar, Pick n Pay, Shoprite Checkers, have all given up the exclusive leases that they had been locked in for
20 years, in many cases, that would prevent any other player from coming in. So, that’s the one set of it and there are many examples. I can give the panel shops, I can give online platforms and so on.
The second measure is money. Making funding available through the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, the National Empowerment Fund, NEF, and the department itself, of course working in partnership with the Small Business Development Department.
The third measure that we’ve looked at is masterplans. Working together with businesses in a sector. Let’s take the sugar industry as an example, is fundamental to try to get small- scale sugar farmers into the commercial market. So, through those measures we’ve been able to release R200 million a year in partnership with the large sugar players that assist smaller players.
The fourth example that I want to give is a broader partnership with the private sector, in many cases through mergers, we have partnership agreements in which large companies make commitments to promote and support small businesses.
Finally, export promotion. Is making sure that small and medium enterprises can get into export markets and so, we assist them, we finance them, we take them to these big exhibitions and import and export platforms globally to enable more South Africans to participate in the opportunities that flow from the export market.
So, those five examples are ways in which we seek to address the impact of economic concentration that chills or reduces
the effectiveness of small business entry into the mainstream economy. I thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I’ve been informed that the hon C Malematja will take charge of the first follow up question on behalf of the hon Monakedi, in accordance with Rule 137(10)(a).
Mr C N MALEMATJA: Minister, the Competition Commission recommended in its Economic Concentration Report in 2021 that funding constraints in government means that private sector financial institutions should do more in funding the development of Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, owned by previously disadvantaged persons.
What has the department done to ensure that private financial institutions are able to contribute towards the development of SMMEs? Are there concrete targets that have been set? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Thank you
very much hon Malematja for the question. There are a few measures that the department has in place, now, to try to
unlock more support from the private sector, given our own fiscal constraints.
One example of that is the partnership that we have with large companies that I spoke of, where they procure more locally, particularly from small and medium enterprises. Over the period of this administration, to date, we have about
R19 billion in procurement commitments by large companies, of which our estimate is that 85% to 90% of that would be directed to small and medium enterprises.
A second example of what we do, our supplier development funds. In a merger, let’s take the example of Shoprite Checkers; when Shoprite Checkers bought the Massmart stores as part of a merger transaction we secured a commitment to protect jobs, but we also got Shoprite to commit to make resources available to small and medium enterprises, and they put together a fund to support small-scale farmers. They also committed that they would procure, within a five-year period, R500 million in additional food supplies from South Africans, particularly small and medium enterprises, that they would normally have imported from elsewhere in the world that they now bring into their supply chain. So, those are a few examples of it.
The IDC itself entered into partnership together with the National Empowerment Fund. If I take the NEF as a good example. They would enter into an agreement with a large oil company to ensure that support is given to get more smaller businesses into owning these garage [filling stations] franchises in order to enable more people to enter. And so, the IDC will then administer the money of these oil companies.
So, given the fiscal constraints that hon Malematja has referred to, we’ve had to be creative to try to unlock resources elsewhere in the economy. Of course, we also work with the large banking and other financial institutions.
Sometimes when the IDC goes into a big transaction, then it seeks to de-risk it by entering into a partnership with another financial institution so that you leverage the combined resources of different institutions. So, those are a few examples of it.
Regarding targets, we have set a target in the Annual Performance Plan, APP, of the department this year of
R30 billion that we want to be able to mobilise across the public and private sectors. The resources that is voted on by Parliament would be a tiny portion of that. We rely, for the rest, on the balance sheets of the development finance
institutions and on the kind of partnerships with large companies. We have those partnerships now with companies like PepsiCo, with Coca-Cola, with Heineken, with Shoprite Checkers, that I've mentioned, with a number of other companies and it is about unlocking resources and helping to make those available to young South Africans, to small businesses that are run by South Africans so that we can broaden the base of the economy and deal with the pernicious challenge of excessive concentration that limits the ability of smaller players to succeed in the market.
So, the combination of funding that we mobilise ourselves, funding we can mobilise from partners and importantly, the regulatory reform with the changes in the Competition Act have given us an important set of tools. Thank you, Chair.
Mr F J MULDER: Hon Minister Patel, while recognising that small, micro and medium enterprises can offer great untapped potential for employment and economic growth, and considering the unfortunate high rate of failure of the sector due to a lack of skills, information and competitiveness: What plans have the department put in place to eradicate the lack of support from the relevant departments, for instance, local government, small business and Eskom, that hinders the way of
SMMEs to become more sustainable in industrial box, for instance? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Hon Chair,
firstly, can I thank hon Mulder for that question! So, we’ve recognised that the constraint that small and medium enterprises face to succeed is not only ... it’s not solely a financial constraint. Yes, access to finance is an important element but it’s not the only element. And so, we’ve put in place a set of measures to try to assist.
To address the energy challenge, hon Mulder mentioned the Eskom issue, we’ve launched now a R1,3 billion Energy Resilience Fund that is directed particularly to small and medium enterprises to assist them to de-risk during the period while power stations are being fixed.
To address the challenges that are often found at local government level, we’ve set up a division or unit in the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, DTIC, called Invest SA. And Invest SA’s principle job is to try to unblock challenges that firms and companies have, sometimes it’s a business licence, sometimes it’s a zoning application and they
deal with those kind of things and we report from time to time to the portfolio committee on those kinds of things.
The third element that hon Mulder raised was sometimes lack of experience. And to address that, we’ve now begun to find ways in which we can build more mentorships with smaller businesses. Not only mentorships between a large business and a small business, although that’s important, but we launched last year a black exporters network that brings together, in many cases, medium-sized businesses that are exporters, where they share experiences with each other, they become a mentorship team to each other with the opportunity to learn from each other. So, those are a few examples in which we try to address the experience gap that small and medium-sized enterprises very often would face.
There are few more examples, but I recognise within the available time I should perhaps rest on those ones. Thank you, Chair.
Mr W M THRING: Minister, in the United States, US, nearly
27 million small businesses generate about 50% of their Gross Domestic Product, GDP. In China SMMEs contribute over 60% of total GDP, 50% of tax income, 79% of job creation and 68% of
exports. In South Africa SMMEs account for only 28% of jobs. Based on international trends, this should be about 60% to 70%.
Now, structural reforms tackle obstacles to the fundamental drivers of growth by supporting labour products and services markets, thereby encouraging job creation and investment and improving productivity.
Minister, noting the inability of some government policies to assist SMMEs and the poor state of our economy: What new innovative structural reforms does your department have to assist SMMEs to become a part of the industrialisation programme in South Africa? And if they exist, when will they be implemented, if none, why not? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Hon Chair,
firstly, thank you very much, hon Thring, for the question. So, let me start by referring hon members to a seminal report that was issued in December 2021 by the Competition Commission. Hon Thring and other members of this august House would find that report very interesting reading because what it does sketches out not only the levels of economic concentration but also the impact of that economic
concentration on small businesses in South Africa, and it draws a direct line that when you have such a highly concentrated economy, the opportunities for small businesses to thrive are significantly limited, small businesses are stunted by the very dominance of some of the markets in the South African economy.
So, what we did was we launched a programme of structural reforms through the amendment to one key part of the Competition Act that enables the Competition Authorities now to basically impose remedies where the structure of a market inhibits the opportunities for small businesses. Prior to that, it was only the conduct of firms that could be dealt with. But hon Thring asked about structure and that’s what the new section of the Act deals with. Its market inquiry.
Very recently we did a market inquiry on online commercial platforms and the report of the market inquiry imposed a number of structural remedies on businesses in that sector, varying from your takealot.com to large global companies like Apple, booking.com and many others. And what they did, they tried to change the dynamic in a sector to enable more players to come in so that it’s not only about making money available, it’s changing the structural features that inhibit.
So, if I may briefly give an example, if you take small players in a township, they want to enter the delivery market, the big franchises that run big fast food stores impose on their businesses in townships and those businesses may only use Uber Eats. So, you have a young person in a township wanting to run a delivery service, but they are precluded from it because there’s a condition attached to the franchise arrangement. Now, The Competition Authority has made it very clear that, that is anticompetitive and it has made a finding on that and that finding is binding, except if it’s challenged, there are a few small number of players that have challenged it and are taking us to court on it, but for the rest, the large players have largely accepted that. And so, that it is a structural problem and a structural remedy.
So, that’s an example of what we are doing now. We are now building the capacity of the Competition Authorities to be able to do this on scale, because we need to do it not just in one or two sectors, but across the economy because concentration is not confined to a few small places. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, as the head of Trade and Industry I hope that you will initiate a process to suspend all trade
with apartheid Zionist Israel until they comply with all the agreements to stop the atrocities against the Palestinian people.
But, very importantly, Minister, I know that the ANC, particularly, repeatedly talk about a caring government that listens to the people, and I repeatedly raised in this House the high unemployment rate amongst the youth and how we should introduce hairdressing, barbers, beauty, and I must congratulate government for that. I see you have just introduced that and you are providing National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, funding for those that want to enter hairdressing and others. So, congratulations to that.
Thank you very much because I think you will create a lot of jobs.
Now, you know, Minister, if we talk about competition, and I think a lot of your emphasis in this question, I had a different question for you, but I will go on the issue of competition. In the airline industry right now, how it is being manipulated by some of them that you would find a flight from Durban to Johannesburg and shoot up to R3 500 at any given time; manipulated by the bigger airlines, particularly, and yet I want to tell you have an airline called CemAir, the
small one, what an excellent service they provide but because of the manipulation by airlines like FlySafair and others, these airlines eventually shut down. What measures has your department put in to deal with that? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Thank you
very much, hon Shaik Emam, for that question. I was very worried as hon Shaik Emam started the question on hairdressers and barbers, that it was perhaps aiming at the criticism of me for not clearly utilising those services sufficiently.
But on a more serious note, thank you very much, hon Shaik Emam, for the comments that you’ve made on the hairdressers and barbers.
Then important opportunity for young people, as would be things like panel beating. And, so, what we found with panel beating to link that to competition measures, is many of the insurance companies historically only put large companies on their panels and when you are ensured you can only go to one of those large players and many hon members will know how expensive it is to go to those. Now, you don’t pay it directly, it’s paid by the insurance, but you pay indirectly through the premiums that go up. So, we had an investigation
of that and the Competition Authority has reached an agreement with the large insurance companies that, that needs to be opened up to smaller players, to township players and so on.
The only question is quality. It’s not whether you have historically had a relationship or you are a golfing partner of someone. That’s what competition is about.
Regarding to airlines, it is a significant concern to us. We’ve seen a tendency, not only in South Africa but globally in the last period, particularly after covid, it’s called surge pricing. And surge pricing is where companies increasingly put prices up enormously during periods when there are significant shortages or very high levels of demand. If you go now to any international conference, you pay an enormous sum for hotels because the hotels coordinate their pricing with the activities that happen and they are able, through surge pricing, to extract more than a ... [Inaudible.]
... return for the capital that they have deployed. It is an issue that the Competition Authorities across the world are looking at.
How does one deal with surge pricing? At what stage does surge pricing become excessive pricing? Excessive pricing is prohibited in our legislation and excessive pricing only arise
in our law when you have a dominant player, where the dominant player puts prices up in a way that is not economically justifiable and they do so because there is an absence of competitors that can come in at a lower price, undercut them and give the consumer a good service. So, this is an area, hon Shaik Emam, you’ve raised, absolutely the right focus and it is an area we will have to look at.
Obviously, we only have the tools available in the Competition Act, so, there are some constraints in what can be done but this is an area I am going to ask the Competition Authorities to have another look to see what are the patterns.
They are doing an excellent job at the moment in tracking food prices, but there’s obviously some other areas that we also need to look at. Thank you very much for the question.
Question 597:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you,
House Chair. We welcome the question. The incidents of construction mafia are dealt with by relevant law enforcement agencies, including the SA Police Service, SAPS, because this is a criminal activity. Disruption, intimidation and extortion are all criminal and should be dealt with as such.
The Department of Public Works does not make actual arrests because actual arrest must be made by the law enforcement agencies. Whilst we don’t make actual arrest or to keep record, but we obtain records and statistics from time to time from SA police Service, which is the only competent authority to keep such information. Therefore, the total number of 682, which we have reported, emerge from that process. Thanks, House Chair.
Mr I S SEITLHOLO: Chairperson, thank you very much. Minister, in 2019, in your capacity as the then Premier of KwaZulu- Natal, you attended an event that was attended by numerous business forums, including one of the pioneer groupings in the construction mafia networks, Dela Ngokubona, essentially legitimising the activities of the construction mafia by participating in gatherings graced by groups, such as Dela Ngokubona.
The Minister is on record, as having said that 200 arrests have been made in relation to the construction mafia. You upped this number to 600 during a panel discussion on the J J Tabane Show. In a statement where you threatened the DA to withdraw our statement haven’t called you on this
disinformation, you went on to say that you will provide evidence in relation to these arrests.
Minister, the reality is that you have failed to provide any evidence to support your disinformation campaign. The reality is that while the National Forum on the Construction Mafia has been a spectacular failure ... [Interjections.] ... due to its exclusion of critical stakeholders, the DA is the only party that has taken a firm stance against the growing culture of impunity against organised crimes. In areas where we govern, with the DA-led city government, Mayor Jordan Hill-Lewis and his team, have launched a 24-hour hotline to report extortion, to tackle crimes related to the construction projects in the city.
With that said, hon Minister, you claim that the SAPS is the only institution that is able to provide you with figures in this regard. However, the reality is that SAPS failed to respond to the DA’s prior application to confirm your particular statistics in terms of these arrests. Can the Minister put it on record, in this House, if indeed these are the arrests, and if he obtained them directly from SAPS? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you.
Firstly, on the issue of statistics, I would like to repeat what I' have said. The only competent authority in this country, which can arrest a person, is the SA Police Service. Therefore, ... [Interjections]
Mr I S SEITLHOLO: Chairperson, on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No! Hon Minister, just hold it for a second.
Sesotho:
Ntate Seitlholo, akere o botsitse potso, ntate? Jwale, Letona le a araba.
English:
He is responding to your question. So, I will not allow any interaction from you. So please do not disturb him; let him go ahead and answer your question. Go ahead, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: The member
makes a statement long statement than a supplemental question. We continue to interact with different groupings at various levels of government. Some of these various groupings come
from the real people who want to participate in economic emancipation. Africans, and blacks in general, were oppressed in this country for more than 342 years. It is therefore important that we first track transformation. There is no sector that must be kept as an exclave of a particular group. This includes construction and property as sectors that can grow the South African economy.
Therefore, we shall never support criminal activities, but for people who come forward eager to get support on ensuring that they are participating in these industries, we will provide them with the support. That will include: Ensuring that they are enlightened on the access to opportunities; they are trained; and that they also compete with others based on the legislations of our country.
Ms N NTOBONGWANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, as we know that this construction mafia delay service delivery: What plans and programs have the department and its entities put in place to deal with these construction mafia to avoid delays in infrastructure development and construction; as well as, what progress have been made to date to deal with this scourge?
Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you,
hon Ntobongwana. The government has enhanced capacity and provided more resources to law enforcement agencies to investigate and prosecute construction-related crimes. To date, government through the SAPS, has established a dedicated unit to deal with this organised crime.
The special task force exists within the police. Together with the Directorate of Priority Crime, we have established the Infrastructure Built Anti-Corruption Forum, which focuses on the implementation of various initiatives that are dealing with corruption in this sector, but also deals with the issue of construction mafia.
Through this forum, we are mobilising multistakeholder participation, from both the public and private sector, to ensure that we collaborate in the fight against construction mafia, fraud and corruption in the industry. As government, we have set up a system to ensure community facilitation and public facilitation, through which we will ensure that projects are implemented without hinderance, in each and every municipality, through local government participating in driving stakeholder management.
More than that, we have a policy commitment of localisation and ensure community participation. We would want to see the industry ensuring that a particular percentage in spend procurement is spent on local communities, but also is spent on the manufactured tools that are manufactured domestically, in the country. That is what we are doing as a department.
Ms A M SIWISA: Thank you, Chair. Minister, we hear your response to the question posed, and I hope that somewhere down the line, we will not get a different answer because this department has a tendency of answering questions depending on who is asking the question and at what platform. Nonetheless, let me ask my follow up.
The construction mafia is caused by tenders that milk the state dry and everyone fights for enrichment without focusing on service deliver. Tenders are seen as a quick and enrichment scheme. Thus, construction mafia is the order of the day.
Are the construction companies that eventually win to be given construction work registered with the relevant entities; and how many of them before manipulating the system, through the bullying, have had successful projects that have been
completed on time, under the budget allocated and without failure?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you. I
will not want to mention companies. [Interjections.] Thank you, hon Siwisa. Companies that get work from government are registered in the Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB. We are strengthening the process of CIDB, not only to be complacent or to be talking about requirements alone, especially financial requirements. We want to see the capacity. If you say you are Grade 7, we must also know the skills you have in terms of your engineers and all other professions that are needed in this regard.
There are a number of projects that have been completed on time within budget, but I will not be mentioning those, to avoid promoting certain individuals who are constructors in this regard. May I also expand, to say that the government is working on ensuring that we cut costs that comes with construction?
Through Infrastructure South Africa, we are standardising the designs of the of the buildings for police stations, for clinics and all such buildings. We are now going to have
standard design, just based on what is the category of the building that is required.
Therefore, we will save more resources from spending on design and professional services. Instead, we will channel costs toward ensuring that construction is happening on site for all departments and all our infrastructure projects. Thank you.
Mr P A VAN STADEN: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, on 31 July this year, you announced that construction mafias have cost the economy R68 billion. It is also known that these mafias do not respect any court interdict when it comes to efforts to curb these activities. Can the Minister indicate if the police unit that is now in place, due to the intervention of the President, has borne any positive outcomes in the combatting of these mafias? If so, can you give us the relevant details of these outcomes; and if not, why not?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you. I
would say yes, but not only the police or the unit. Both the unit and the intervention on the issue of facilitation. There are a number of projects that have been stopped before, which are going smoothly now. I may speak about one project that was delayed for a long period in Pretoria, Salvokop, which is a
precinct where we are building a government building which will accommodate different departments and that was delayed for some time.
Through facilitation and these units, we have been able to address issues, because what is important is to separate criminal intentions and activities from genuine interest of people who want to participate in the construction. So such buildings are continued. The Durban Court is one of such examples, where the three spheres of government intervene and work with local communities, to ensure that the construction is taking place with no disruption.
At the initial phase the project was delayed because of these people who wanted to get tenders through subcontracting. There was a facilitation and the swift arrest made by police. As a result, those who wanted to participate in the construction processes were enrolled and they were then given opportunities through proper processes. Therefore, I would say there is progress. You are beginning to see number of programs or projects that we are implementing countrywide, which are moving smoothly, with the exception of few areas. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. As we move through question 599. I want to remind members that is a supplementary question may not consist of more than one question. Should it happen that a member finds himself or herself in top flight, the Minister has the liberty to reply accordingly. Whether it does or it doesn’t.
Question 599:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, we have looked into various matters affecting state-owned companies, SOCs, but what is critical is to understand the roles of the different parties that are involved in an SOC. The shareholder's role is to hold boards to account in terms of the strategy and the shareholder compact that is developed between the entity and the department. The boards have a responsibility in fiduciary terms to ensure that there is a proper strategy in place and that management is executing that strategy. Management’s responsibility is to execute and to perform according to the key performance indicators, KPIs, developed both by the entity itself and the department with them. Where there is nonperformance or poor performance, the boards must take the appropriate action.
So, I have indeed tasked various boards to develop and execute turnaround plans or recovery plans to drastically improve performance in their respective areas. Let me give you some examples from Transnet. Transnet reported a R5,7 billion loss in the financial year that ended in March 2023, and although it made a R5 billion profit in the previous year, much of that is attributable to a change in valuation of property.
Secondly, the mining industry accounts for approximately 80% of Transnet’s state-owned rail volumes and 50% of Transnet's overall revenue.
Mr M A TSEKI: We can't hear, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: This has been a major casualty in terms of the performance of rail in Transnet. The decline in rail had a direct R50 billion loss in commodity exports in 2022. South Africa's mining companies estimate that transferring their commodities from rail to road has cost them R500 million extra annually in order to get their commodities to the port.
Similarly, the declining rail volumes have featured in this lack of performance as well and we have seen a decline from
226 million tons in the years 2017-18 to 173 million tons in 2021-22 and a further decline to 149 million tons in 2022-23. We’ve seen decreased revenue to Transnet, losses to the mining industry and losses to the fiscus as well in terms of fiscal income.
Accordingly, I have directed the board on the 1st of September to undertake the following: An operational transformation to radically improve operations at Transnet; to identify the root causes that are resulting in these problems; to ensure that there is rigorous accountability and oversight together with the National Logistics Crisis Committee, which I mentioned earlier; that the digitisation of systems and the availability transparently of data on performance must become an urgent matter for the board and management to implement; and rigorous systems of controls to comply with the Auditor-General's findings as well. Ultimately, this is a matter neither of race nor gender. It's about performance and delivery by an SOC.
Similarly, in response to the second part of the question, there isn't a bigger problem. The key problem is whether management is delivering what it is supposed to deliver. So, in the interim, whilst we have seen a few departures, there certainly haven't been too many. Whilst these processes of
recruiting people into these key positions are underway, the organisations have appointed interim executive directors, prescribed officers from within the existing management structures and these individuals have sufficient operational experience to guide the entity into the future. The boards of the respective entities have given an assurance that they will do everything possible to implement their recovery plans and we maintain a clear oversight over their performance.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon Tseki, next time please try to find an innovative manner of raising your objection because you might find yourself disconnected. The first supplementary question will be asked by hon Maotwe.
Ms A M SIWISA: It’s a follow-up question, Chair. This is a follow-up question asked on behalf of commissar Omphile Maotwe. As the EFF, we said before that as the Minister you have an antiblack people agenda. You only hire white people
... [Interjections.] Wait, wait. You only hire white people
...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): ... ngicela ume kancane
...
English:
There’s a point of order.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I’m rising on Rule 85. A member cannot just blanketly say that another member is anti a particular race. I don’t think it’s parliamentary. She must come with a substantive motion.
An HON MEMBER: What rule is that?
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Chair, on a point of order. On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ntlangwini, just ...
IsiZulu:
... cha, ima kancane, Mama.
English:
I’m dealing with a point of order. So please ...
IsiZulu:
... awume kancane.
English:
Hon members, I refer you to Rule 85:
No member may impute improper motives to any other member, or cast personal reflections upon a member’s integrity or dignity, or verbally abuse a member in any other way.
A member who wishes to bring any improper or unethical conduct on the part of another member to the attention of the House, may do so only by way of a separate substantive motion ...
So, hon member, it’s not proper to comment the way you did. Can you kindly withdraw what you said?
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: I rose on a point of order, Chair.
An HON MEMBER: There’s a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member from the EFF, I have requested you to withdraw.
Ms A M SIWISA: Chair, my Whip has just raised a point of order. Can you attend to it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, no, I won’t entertain it until we are through with you. Can you please withdraw that statement?
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: But Chair, I’m rising on a point of order because ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I will address you once I am done with ...
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Huh-uh, so now we won’t be able to say anything in this House. She is protected by freedom of speech in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, no, you will be
... [Inaudible.] ... you will have something to do with it. Please allow us to ... [Inaudible.]
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: If you are in the business of protecting Pravin, not on our ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, can you please disconnect hon Ntlangwini? [Interjections.]
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: If you are in the business of protecting
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Alright, we are able to go ahead with the business of the day. She was disturbing us. Can you please ... {Inaudible.]
Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Chair, what must she withdraw? There’s nothing to withdraw here. So, must we be made to withdraw the truth.
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: You are scared of Pravin. You are scared of Pravin.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): [Inaudible.] ... can you disconnect her please ... [Inaudible.]
Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: So, must we be made to withdraw the truth? We can’t withdraw the truth.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, can you please disconnect the hon Shikwambana as well?
An HON MEMBER: Chair, don’t be emotional. Don’t be emotional, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. Hon member, I have requested you to withdraw the comments that you made.
Ms A M SIWISA: But, hon Chairperson, it’s very unfair that a member from the ruling party rises on a point of order yet our members are not given an opportunity to rise on a point of order, and then they are removed from the system.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I will attend to those members who raised points of order, including your members from the EFF, but ...
IsiZulu:
... okwamanje sicela ukuthi sidlule kule nto.
English:
Can you please withdraw your comments before we attend to the hon Ntlangwini and the others?
Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Which comment must she withdraw? What must she withdraw? Which comment?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, you are taking too long to respond to our requests. Hon member, please go ahead.
Ms A M SIWASA: I think that ICT understands that there is freedom of speech. However, I will withdraw, Chair. I will withdraw.
When you hire black executives, you hire them because you know that they will treat you like a mini-God. We know that you are not interested in hiring ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, there’s another point of order.
Ms A M SIWASA: You are not interested in hiring competent black executives. You accuse them of ... [Inaudible.] ... and
open cases against them. What gives you the legitimacy to even lead such an investigation because it will lack credibility?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Member, you are obviously not prepared to observe the rules of the House. You are doing it deliberately to disturb the flow of the debate in this House and that will not be tolerated at any given moment. You might have an opportunity to pose another question. Should you do that and should you behave in the manner in which you did, I will have no alternative but to request you to recuse yourself from the House. That is totally unacceptable. Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I just want to correct your ruling around Rule 85, and the reason why is because I just want to understand ... [Interjections.] Excuse me, may I please finish my point?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, give her a chance.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to understand which word that was used was unparliamentary, so that my own members don’t make the same mistake. I don’t quite understand
what the member said which has been ruled out of order. Thanks, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will address it before the end of this session. Hon Ntlangwini, you raised a point of order. What is your point of order?
An HON MEMBER: Chair, you removed her.
Mr V PAMBO: Chair, this is a sign of you having lost control of the House. You don’t even know that you removed the member. What is this?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Pambo, please. ICT, if hon Pambo goes ahead, you’ll have to disconnect him too. If the members of the EFF behave in the manner in which they do, which ... [Inaudible.]
Mr V PAMBO: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Pambo?
Mr V PAMBO: Chairperson, it seems as if we are not equal members in this Parliament. You are not even aware that you removed the member. You haven’t told us why she must withdraw. She just withdrew because she wanted to ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What’s your point of order, hon member?
Mr V PAMBO: No, the order is on you, Chairperson ... that you are impartial.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, thank you very much. Hon member, you are raising a hand. What’s your point of order?
Ms B MATHULELWA: Chair, I wanted to ask you to please allow hon Pambo to speak because he raised a point of order.
Mr V PAMBO: Return Natasha. Commissar Natasha must come back, Chair.
Ms B MATHULELWA: Return hon Shikwambana as well.
Mr V PAMBO: You have no basis. You’ve just proven that you have no basis for removing them ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, can you please disconnect hon Pambo?
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Chairperson, with respect, you don’t understand what is ... [Inaudible.] ... order. You don’t understand yourself ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, can you please disconnect hon Pambo. I’m sure she’s disconnected. Hon member, what is your point of order?
Ms B MATHULELWA: Chair, I want to know why hon Pambo was removed from this House. Why did you disconnect him? What did he do? Can we be told?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, please take your seat. I’m not in a position to explain it. Hon Hlengwa?
Ms B MATHULELWA: Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I mean, you are in the House. You understand the proceedings. You hear the proceedings. I cannot be answerable to those kinds of questions. [Interjections.]
Ms B MATHULELWA: Chair, your ... [Inaudible.] ... why our hon members were disconnected. We deserve to know. We can’t just be disconnected and you don’t explain yourself. You need to explain how you arrived at ...
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, your judgement is very biased.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, please take you seat. Hon member, please take your seat or else you’ll have to leave the House. Serjeant-at-arms, can you please help the member out. Can you please help the hon member out of the House?
An HON MEMBER: No, Chairperson, it is very unfair of you to do that. Why are you calling the Serjeant-at-arms of yours? Why are you doing that? Why?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can you please help her out of the House? [Interjections.]
Mr M MANYI: A point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I’ve noted you, hon Hlengwa. I’ve noted you, hon Manyi.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, we can’t hear. Or have you removed us as well?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I have requested the Serjeant-at-arms to help you out of the House. I will ask you again, please leave the House.
Ms B MATHULELWA: Chairperson, why are you doing that? Can you explain why you are doing that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Please leave the House.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, you are wrong. You know it. You are wrong. You are removing our members ... [Inaudible.] ... because the prime minister is here. ... [Inaudible.] ... our questions ... the prime minister.
An HON MEMBER: Go! Go! Go!
An HON MEMBER: Pravin is ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Serjeant-at-arms, can you please request the security to take her out? [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: ... [Interjections.] ... he hates black people
... victimising ... there in the ... [Interjections.] You removed hon Ntlangwini and you removed hon ... [Interjections.] ... ask you a question ... don’t want to explain yourself. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: We must remove you there.
Ms L H ARRIES: Chairperson, you are not in control of this meeting.
An HON MEMBER: The Chairperson must go.
Ms L H ARRIES: We need another Chairperson on the bench.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hlengwa?
Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, if I may momentarily beg your indulgence on a matter I have raised before during a Question session in this House. Every time we have the kind of interjections that eat into Question Time, Question Time is compromised because the Question session is between 15:00 and 18:00. There’s no injury time. You don’t have stoppage time like in rugby. Once again, I beg your indulgence to look into this matter to ensure that the business of the House does not lose the minimal time that is actually required. [Interjections.] This has nothing to do with the Ethics Committee. It’s got everything to do with Members of Parliament maximally using the time available to them for the questions of ...
IsiZulu:
Mina nawe singaficana phandle. Ukhululeke nje. Impi yakho ngingangayo.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Address me, hon Hlengwa.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M HLENGWA: ... sizoficana phandle ... [Ubuwelewele.] ... angikwesabi nje.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Just address me, hon Hlengwa. Yes, it is unfortunate that we have to go through this kind of business. It is unfortunate. However, we have the rules of the House that are agreed to by all of us, no matter your political affiliation. We have the rules that we all adhere to, recognise and respect. So, it is important that the decorum of the House be equally respected by all of us. The hon Manyi raised a point of order. Hon Manyi?
Mr M MANYI: Yes, I’m raising a point of order on you, Chair, because the rules of the House that you are talking about bind everyone, including the Chair. Before anybody is removed, you have a duty to bring to the attention of the member what the issue is and you have a duty to give a member a fair warning before you chuck a person out. Hon Pambo was not given one warning and did not defy any of your rules. You just chucked him out simply because you did not like the manner in which he engaged you. So, I want to say to you that I think you actually over ... what do you call it ... you just bulldozed the process. So, I want to ask you ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Manyi. I don’t know on which platform you are, hon Manyi, but I did all that you said I did not do. I did it.
Shall we continue, hon members? Where were we before I was rudely interrupted? The Minister was supposed to respond. Hon Minister, can you please respond to the question?
Mr M MANYI: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mzwanele, please. Minister, can you please continue?
Mr M MANYI: Point of order, Chair. I have a right to raise a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Mzwanele?
Mr M MANYI: My point of order is that when people raise points of order it is unparliamentary for you to say you are being rudely interrupted. How can you be rudely interrupted when ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Manyi, we would like to continue with the business of today.
Mr M MANYI: ... people are exercising the rules of the House in an acceptable ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): If you continue in this manner I’m going to disconnect you. I will disconnect you if you continue in this way.
Mr M MANYI: Which way, Chairperson? Which way, Chairperson? I’m raising a point of order and explaining myself. What is the issue? Is that a problem for you, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Manyi, please stop what you are doing. Please stop what you are doing. Just stop it.
Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson? Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I’m not going to entertain this again. I’m going to allow the Minister to reply to the question.
Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Please, hon member, I’m not going to allow this to go ahead. Please allow us to go ahead with the work of the day.
Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson? But we’ve got the right. Chairperson?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, there is nothing to respond to. Thank you.
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: That’s what we call being rude.
Ms N P SONTI: What kind of Chairperson is ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, can you please disconnect that member?
Ms L H ARRIES: You are sensitive, Chairperson. What is your problem ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Sonti should be disconnected.
Ms N P SONTI: For what reason? For what?
IsiXhosa:
Awuyazi wena into oyenzayo kule...
English:
Ms L H ARRIES: Why are you laughing ... [Inaudible.] It’s not a joke, Chairperson. This is not a laughing matter. [Inaudible.] It’s not a joke. [Interjections.]
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Chairperson, why did you remove hon Sonti? Chairperson, why did you remove hon Sonti? She was not rude, like you say people are rude. Chairperson, why did you remove hon Sonti?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, you will not allow those members of the EFF on the virtual platform to create havoc in the House. Can you please disconnect them. [Interjections.]
Ms L H ARRIES: He doesn’t know what is going on around him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Laetitia should be disconnected.
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, who was rude to you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Sonti should be removed from the platform. All those members I have mentioned should be removed from the platform please.
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Chairperson, you are not really fair. The manner in which you are conducting the whole thing ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): ... nangu omunye ...
English:
... must be removed. Hon members, can I bring the following to your attention?. A point of order or a question of privilege is only allowed if it calls attention to a transgression of a rule or an accepted parliamentary practice or privilege.
Freedom of speech is one of the privileges that members enjoy in their exercise of their constitutional obligations to represent their constituencies. This privilege is subject to the rules and orders.
Hon members, spurious points of order or questions of privilege or raising a point of order that has already been ruled upon is an abuse of the rules and the privilege of freedom of speech. If hon members persist in doing so, such
conduct will be regarded as an abuse of the rules and an abuse of the privilege of freedom of speech. Hon members, for this reason I will accordingly order that such behaviour is totally unacceptable.
The exercise that we just embarked on was not necessary. It was totally unnecessary. So, I will request members to allow us to continue with the business of the day because time is of the essence. The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon N Mkhwanazi.
Ms J C N MKHWANAZI: Hon Minister, thank you very much for providing a detailed and assisting answer. Hon Minister, since the ANC-led government inherited a racially-skewed Public Service, where a large percentage of civil servants emanated from the apartheid regime, what has the Department of Public Enterprises done thus far to place previously disadvantaged professionals with the right skills and right competencies within the right places in order for them to provide innovative solutions to address complex operations and financial challenges across SOCs? Also, hon Minister, does the department have any strategic plan in place to retain those professionals with the required competencies rather than to lose them to the private sector or to other countries?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Much of the Public Service has changed quite substantially since 1994, although I don't have numbers at the moment, and the whole orientation is in terms of promoting the values and precepts in the Constitution, but importantly, the development of South Africa for all 62 million people that the census tells us we have right now.
Secondly, in terms of previously disadvantaged communities, there is a huge advance in the state sector generally, but particularly within SOCs as well, and the numbers indicate that we have professionals who today would be having 20-
25 years of experience, and who add a tremendous amount of value. However, there are also those few who are neither performing or engaging in activities which, for example assisted state capture. And if they did, then they must pay the price for it and ideally find themselves in orange uniforms at some point or the other.
Furthermore, each of the bigger institutions and companies have intensive and extensive training programmes, for example pilots. This is not the airline pilots but the tug pilots, who bring ships into harbours and take out ships from harbours, and other such skills on the railway system, for example which
continues to reproduce younger generations of people who have the right kinds of skills but also the experience as well.
Unfortunately, during the state capture period, honest, good, excellent, black and white professionals were kicked out of many of these organisations and went to seek out greener pastures elsewhere, including overseas countries. So, you will see here, for example that power stations, nuclear power stations, for example in other regions in the world, are actually largely run by South African professionals. We are attracting some of them back but we need to attract a lot of them back in this case as well and there is a constant plan within each of the entities to retain professionals, to look after them but importantly, to create an environment where they thrive and feel satisfied.
However, at the same time it is important to ensure that the businesspeople outside of these SOCs don't attempt to bribe them, don't ask for patronage or handouts so that they can benefit improperly, and we must stop stealing, sabotage and corruption in the SOCs which still goes on to some extent or the other. Where we find such individuals engaging in that activity, there must be complete intolerance for that.
However, the flip side is that the vast majority want to
contribute to the country and to the wellbeing of the SOC, and they will continue to do so. They look after themselves, they look after the entity, but indeed they have a responsibility to advance the future of this country as well. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Minister, referring to the 2019 ANC manifesto and its proven failure to deliver for South Africans, every newspaper has spoken of Transnet’s failure. In view of the number of resignations and firings from Transnet and Eskom's executives and boards, it is clear that you initially appointed them and of course they have been amongst your list of favoured people, while now you accept no responsibility, Minister. So, the question is, will you agree, Minister, that this is indicative of crippling political meddling, the failure of broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE, and shockingly poor governance under your watch, Minister? Perhaps it's time, Minister, that you need to step down and leave.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I think what hon Essack should have said is that he is launching the DA's election campaign now. We welcome the launch and we will take you on in the field as well at the appropriate time. Just to remind you, Mr Essack, you belong to a 20% party and you will never succeed in going above that either. That's why you are
looking at moonshots and so on. So, yes, I will, don’t get impatient. I will answer the question and if the question is politically loaded, it will get a politically loaded answer as well. So, you have tried once before, saying you are responsible. Go! No, firstly, I'm not going anywhere until the end of this term.
Secondly, I accept responsibility. That is why we are changing boards where it is appropriate. Boards are saying to executives, go if you can't perform, because the level of performance that we are seeing is not good for the country, not good for the entity and not good for the individuals themselves. So, we act where it's necessary.
Political meddling is a popular noise that is made all over the show. I can guarantee you that I don't have the time for meddling. I don't have a spanner or anything else in my office to go around to fix a power station or anything like that.
However, we need to understand where the failures are, what the root causes are and make sure that somebody is giving attention to it.
The last point is that you should come for a cup of tea. I will explain to you the kind of damage that state capture has
done to these institutions and you tell me if you were in the shoes of a chief executive officer, CEO, or a board chair or a board member, what you would do to fix these institutions. It would take a hell of a long time to fix and these are broken institutions. However, we will fix them. We have laid the platform. I am confident that things will improve from this point onwards and where there are lapses, we will act against the people who are responsible for those lapses.
Mr M HLENGWA: Minister, notwithstanding all that you have said, obviously it is common cause that from time to time in the ... [Inaudible.] ... you do get the allegations of racism.
... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
Adv M R M MOTHAPO: {Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Refiloe? Sorry about that.
IsiZulu: Qhubeka.
English:
Mr M HLENGWA: I am saying that from time to time the allegations of racism do rear their ugly heads, pitting executive against executive, workers against the executive, the executive against workers. It happens all the time. You had the incidents of the former chief procurement officer, Solly Tshitangano at Eskom, amongst others. However, broadly then, Minister, the question is what interventions are there for the purposes of social cohesion and fostering race relations in the SOC space, given the complexity that is there. It is one thing to complain about it when it is rightly so to point it out, but there is a need for a concerted effort to bring people closer together, and the diversity of the SOC space requires that such action is taken. So, if any, what is it? What plans are there to respond to this particular dilemma? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Hlengwa, I think you have raised a very important point. Of course, no institution can isolate itself from society more generally and South Africa has had a history of many centuries of racism, of colonialism, of oppression and the battles and struggles against those forms of inhuman behaviour.
Secondly, you're right, in any work situation, whether it's in the state or outside of the state, these instances might actually arise and certainly more active programmes need to be introduced so that diversity and cohesion both coexist within these institutions. However, there is also a greater level of understanding of different cultures, greater level of acceptance of the kind of changes we need to make within institutions, but also more consciously eliminate race as a factor and racism as a factor. It is regrettable that some of these things take time and you have seen manifestations of it not so long ago within this kind of context as well.
So, I certainly take your proposition in this particular case. Some of the SOCs are aware that as part of the change processes that we are talking about, particularly in the operational area, also require a culture change. Some of the change processes in relation to issues like lack of ethics, integrity, corruption, etc also require a values change within the workforce and in society more generally as well.
So, I think in one sense, SOCs must do what they have to do to take up your point but as a society we also have to address this question ... that greed is a big factor in the way people, certainly in the middle classes and above, address
themselves in business propositions and so on. That is why those tendencies tend to weaken the state rather than ... [Inaudible.] ... with the state as well. However, this remains our historical mission as a country and I'm sure, step by step we shall certainly overcome some of the legacies of our past. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon members, in response to the point of order by the Chief Whip of the Opposition, may I draw your attention to the following rule. Rule 92 provides that the presiding officer's ruling on a point of order is final and binding. They may not be challenged or questioned in the House. A member who is aggrieved by the presiding officer's ruling on a point of order may subsequently, in writing to the Speaker, request that the principle or subject matter of the ruling be referred to the Rules Committee. I therefore urge hon members not to challenge or question the decision of the House Chair but to use the relevant structures and remedies provided for the rules.
We now move to Question 558 which has been asked by the hon Mashele to the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure. The hon Minister?
Question 558:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you,
House Chair and thanks to hon Mashele for his question. Indeed, as the department, we have developed the Small Harbour Development Directorate, recognising the imperative need of establishing new small harbours within different provinces.
But in this specific case in Eastern Cape, the department is currently in the process of finalising an in-kind grant to facilitate the undertaking of a detailed feasibility study for prospective small harbours in Port St Johns. The feasibility studies will focus on technical, economical, legal, operational and environmental factors to determine if the project can be successfully implemented.
In the context of Port St Johns, which is located in Eastern Cape, the feasibility study might focus on various projects related to small harbours as well as local infrastructure. In relation to Port Alfred, which is in Sarah Baartman District, feasibility studies could explore projects related to areas such as tourism, accommodation facilities and others. In the case of this small harbour in Port Alfred, the department has effectively secured project preparation funding through Infrastructure South Africa.
I must say, for all small harbours, the investment on small harbours focuses on improving infrastructure, but it unlocks transportation storage facilities and specialized equipment. These improvements facilitate the efficient movement of goods and enable business to operate more effectively and promote trade and economic growth. I must say and affirm, as I said at the beginning, hon Mashele, the role of SMMEs will be great and will be supported by the department in these small harbours. Thank you.
Mr T V MASHELE: Thank you very much, Minister. Clearly Minister, small harbours remain an integral part of these coastal communities in relation to economic development. Now, what are your plans in terms of developing other small harbours in provinces like KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Cape? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thanks, House
Chair and thanks for the supplementary question. The department seeks to address both in this regard, historically neglected areas but promote economic inclusivity and uplift communities along the coast. The intent is to contribute directly to the achievement of the National Development Plan goals and the reduction of triple challenges of unemployment,
poverty and inequality. In terms of the development of small harbours, the focus is on the three coastal provinces, Eastern Cape, Northern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. We are liaising with the Chinese government to assist with feasibility studies in these three provinces. Unlike the apartheid regime which only focused in one province which is the Western Cape, but we would want to ensure that we explore economic opportunities for all communities in coastal areas. I thank you.
Setswana:
Rre I S SEITLHOLO: Kealeboga, mma Boroto.
English:
Minister, Saldanha Bay harbour mismanagement is well known to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works as the oversight visit to the area in April 2023 to gain insight into the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and the Property Management Trading Entity were managing small harbours along South Africa’s coast. This mismanagement by Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE is phasing 3000 jobs and a 450 million economy at risk in Saldanha Bay.
Recently cited as one of the best run municipalities in the country, Saldanha Bay under Mayor André Brahm Truter, the municipality has raised issues with the continued deteriorating harbour facilities, but its representation has flatly been ignored by Department of Public Works and Infrastructure. The municipality also submitted an intergovernmental request to Department of Public Works and Infrastructure requesting that they devolve management of the harbour to the municipalities, but this has fallen on deaf ears. Minister with this mismanagement, will the Minister consider the intergovernmental request to devolve management rights of the harbour to the Saldanha Bay Municipality? If not, why not?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thank you.
No, we will not. We will not consider devolving powers, but we will address the real problem. The problem is management in Saldanha Small Harbour, which we are addressing. Tomorrow at
12 o’clock at our offices here, the office of Public Works and Infrastructure, myself as the Minister and the directorate responsible, will be meeting with communities from Saldanha. We shall never allow people to lose jobs, let alone 3000 people from such an area. We are not a government that contribute to unemployment, but we address unemployment.
Therefore, we are going to improve the management of that facility, protect jobs and ensure that we create more opportunities. But we shall never ... we are not going to devolve powers. Thank you.
Setswana:
Moh A M SIWISA: Ke a leboga, mme.
English:
Hon Minister, small scale farmers have been living off the products that they harvested in the sea and could provide their families until the arrival of big corporation companies in South Africa. Job creation does not necessarily mean provision of infrastructure to small scale fisherman within the mentioned areas, but it simply means that big corporations are provided with infrastructure by the government under the so-called Triple-P to subject small-scale farmers to exploitation. How many small-scale farmers have already been identified as per the response that you have just given that the SMMEs are going to be looked into. As we are sitting here, how many already have been identified to be assisted by Department of Public Works and Infrastructure pertaining to infrastructure?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thanks. I
would assume that the hon member was referring to fishermen and all people who are doing fishing, not farmers. With that assumption, I think we must be honest. Both the big business and small businesses have a role to play in ensuring the growth of the economy. In this regard, we are introducing a policy which is more or less similar to that we are using, which is used under the Ministry led by Minister Patel of a Special Economic Zones. Give people support when they start, especially small and emerging fishermen. Ensure that they are supported. You give them the reduced rental prices up until they are sustainable and then you can increase. But we are coming together, not only as the Department of Public Works, but as a cluster of departments to support these small harbours. These include the Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Environmental Affairs. But it includes also the Department of Transport, where we are collaborating to support all of those who are operating in these small harbours. We want to offer the support to the big corporates who are there because they create more jobs. But we want to ensure that there is a secured space for those who are emerging so that they benefit and be able to be sustainable going forward. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr S S ZONDO: Thank you, Chair. Greeting to ...
IsiZulu:
... umkhaya wami, Ungqongqoshe.
English:
Hon Khuzeni, I just want to get it clear. I hear you are explaining it very well and it seems to be good. But maybe you need to give us details on things that have been done by your department and the cluster departments that you are talking about in details, because we have seen these things of small harbours. We have seen the devastation from them. We’ve seen the neglection from fishermen and we need to be sure of what is the orderly steps from your department to make sure that you sustain and support fishermen. You mentioned that you support areas that are in the small harbours. I think you need to give us details on how this department is going to help those in those areas. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thanks, House
Chair. The details are as follows: about 13 small harbours that were built by the apartheid regime in the 1960s and not maintained, this government has maintained them, improved them by the investment of more than 500 million. That is the first
detail. The second detail, the next cluster of small harbours have been identified in Northern Cape, in Eastern Cape, Port St Johns and in KwaZulu-Natal. In Port St Johns, a prefeasibility study has been concluded. With regard to the final feasibility study for the three, we are in discussion with the Chinese government for in-kind grant and these are details. Unless maybe details will be something else, hon Zondo.
In all of these areas Umkhaya, we are in consultation with communities. We are in consultation with communities from Port St Johns, from Ugu and from Northern Cape. So, I must also conclude by saying we are not only focusing in ensuring that we wait until we build these harbours. Fishermen are being supported and we have done a lot in all of these areas to provide support to all of those people who are along the coast. Thanks.
Question 559:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, the Road Accident Fund, RAF, currently administers the fault-based motor vehicle accident compensation system, which it inherited from its predecessors in terms of the Road Accident Fund Act. It was based on the findings and recommendations of the Satchwell
Commission that Cabinet approved the policy for the Road Accident Benefit Scheme on 7 September 2011. This is South Africa’s national policy which requires us to integrate the social insurance provided by the RAF to the country’s overall social security system. It is true that Parliament rejected the Road Accident Benefit Scheme Bill in 2021 but this does not negate the fact that we have a duty to implement its provisions.
The Road Accident Fund 2020-25 strategy introduces an operating model that places emphasis on the settlement of claims within 120 days and simplifying the claims process, thus removing dependencies on third parties. The Road Accident Fund has made significant progress and has reduced the amount owed to claimants or the requested but not paid amount from R17 billion in 2019-20 to R9,3 billion in 2022-23. The Special Investigating Unit, SIU, is investigating 102 law firms, including the sheriffs, which received duplicate payments from Road Accident Fund of approximately R340 million, and the RAF has recovered approximately R18 million at the end of April 2023. I thank you very much.
TshiVenda:
Muf M M RAMADWA: Ndo livhuwa Mulangadzulo wa Nndu.
English:
Thank you very much, hon Minister, for your response. Hon Minister, what are the plans of Road Accident Fund to further reduce its costs against the income and how it is going to decrease its debt liability to enable it to service the victims of road accidents? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Ramadwa, the department has also published the Road Accident Fund Bill to amend the Road Accident Fund Act to, amongst others, provide efficient services to the claimants because the relationship that exists between the RAF is with the claimants and not the third parties. The public comments to the RAF Amendment Bill closed on 9 October 2023 and part of the amendments that would ensure that those eligible for payments receive compensation, including simplifying the claiming process and ensuring that the compulsory payment of compensation for loss of earnings or loss in support in instalments happens. Because what is happening now is that you pay the lump sum and the rest of it gets lost. I have an issue here with me. Somebody was paid R5,619 million through the law firm. The law firm did not pay the claimant who is black, and a white law firm did not pay their person at least R619 000, instead they paid the claimant R53 000 and stole R5,6 million. This is the case. This story
that I am relating to happens every day, and that is why when there are new developments that are introduced, it is not the claimants that jump, it is the people who have never been involved in accidents, its law firms that pretend to be claiming these things for their people. This is the looting that is happening. So, the question is structured correctly. How do we ensure that we reduce? The issue about this is that there will be an agreement between the claimants and the representatives that you cannot then say to the claimants don’t. We encourage them to come direct and claim through the RAF, but when they decide to do it themselves through the lawyers, then that is the agreement that they have. But the looting happens every day. All that we do when they report these matters to us is to assist if they go to court to say we paid R5,6 million and R53 000 went to the claimants. Thank you.
IsiNdebele:
Num T M MABHENA: Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo.
English:
Context is important. While the Road Accident Benefit Scheme failed because of obvious design flaws and misaligned thinking in relation to practical solutions, the latest published
proposal to change the current Act proposes exclusion of pedestrians to be compensated by government. I wanted to ask the Minister to say: Where there any lessons learned in the previous public hearings in nine provinces where 76% of attendees amongst the 981 did not support draft Bill, why did you then, in the current proposed scheme, decide to exclude pedestrians in the future dispensation of claims for road accidents victims? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I couldn’t get the question as such because I think it is missing in some other words. However ... [Interjections.]
Mr T M MABHENA: I can repeat, Chairperson.
IsiNdebele:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Awa, thula, Mbuduma. Uthe ukuzwile kancani. Ragela phambili.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Okay, but if you listened to what he said, he confirms exactly what I am saying, its attorneys, he says, not the claimants, not the people who have had people involved in accidents, not those who have lost support because somebody has died, not the people who probably have lost
income because they were badly injured. It’s attorneys, he says. It is not the Road Accident Fund ... is not for attorneys ... [Interjections.]
Mr T M MABHENA: On a point of order, Chair! I never said attorneys ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mabhena ...
IsiNdebele:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Mhlonitjhwa Mabhena, awungizwa na?
Num T M MABHENA: Ngiyakuzwa kwanjesi, Sihlalo.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Lalela ke ...
English:
Hon Minister, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please, come in, hon Mabhena.
IsiNdebele:
Num T M Mabhena: Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo.
English:
Yes, the question was: Whilst the Road Accident Benefit Scheme has failed because of obvious design flaws and misaligned thinking in relation to practical solutions, the latest published proposal to change the current Act proposes exclusion of pedestrians to be compensated by this ANC government. The question is: Why, Minister, did you decide to exclude pedestrians in the future dispensation of claims for road accident victims? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Mabhena, I have heard you now. Firstly, this is still a Bill. We are conducting hearings about it. If there is enough reason to include pedestrians, that can be done, but let me say that even today, with the Road Accident Fund as it is, if you are in a tractor, you don’t claim from the Road Accident Fund. I just want to believe that even the pedestrians are claiming today if it is a motor vehicle. Now, I think if that is an omission, it is something that can still be considered because this is a Bill, it is not an Act. So, if that is raised, we will take it into account. Thank you.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: The Road Accident Benefit Scheme Bill was rejected by all members of the Portfolio Committee on Transport. The main problem is not the Bill but corruption within the institution. Amending the Bill will not get rid of the inefficiencies and corruption within the institution. What is the department doing or what plans do they have in place to clean administration and corruption at Road Accident Fund?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The Road Accident Benefit Scheme Bill was rejected by Parliament and therefore it is no longer on the table. It is because it was a no-fault Bill. It was saying anyone who is in an accident can claim from Road Accident Fund with the aim of excluding lawyers because the Road Accident Fund today forces a person to go and look for legal representation because that’s what it asks, but what we are experiencing with that is what I was referring to that when they have the legal representatives, then sometimes you would have the number of the claimant, but the lawyer will then advise the claimants to change the cellphone number so that we are no longer able to communicate with the claimants. So, these things happen. So, we are of the view that, like any other security, in fact, security insurance ... then you are going to have anyone qualifying to claim from the Road Accident Fund, but that was rejected.
Now, we are talking about the new Bill, which will still be fault-based, but at least make it easy for the claimant to claim without seeking a legal representation because that is where the problem is, so that the claimants are able to go directly to Road Accident Fund, which even today, they do have a right to do so, but otherwise somewhere they are forced to look for a legal person to represent them. We are trying to make it easy for the claimants to claim directly from the Road Accident Fund without seeking legal representation. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu K P SITHOLE: Sihlalo angibonge kuNgqongqoshe, inkinga ithi: laba bantu abalimalayo banenkinga yokuthi abammeli bahlala ezibhedlela. Uma nje eselimele umuntu ngalesi sikhathi angazi lutho ummeli uvese angene kuye athathe yonke imininingwane yakhe, emva kwalokho ahambe ayokwenza isicelo sokuxeshezelwa. Manje ngizama ukuthola ukuthi ngabe ikhona na indlela yokufundisa abantu isimo ukuthi umuntu uyakwazi ukuzenzela isicelo ngaphandlela kokusizwa ngabammelingoba abammeli ekugcineni badla imali yabantu abalimele engozini yemoto? Ngiyathokoza Sohlalo.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Ngempela ngiyavuma lungu elihloniphekile sike saba neFlagship project of RAF ebesithi
yi-Taking RAF on the road. Besiya kubantu siyobafundisa, namanje kusenzeka kakhulu ukuthi kuyiwe aebantwini bayofundiswa, kodwa njengoba usho ngenkathi nje eMpumalanga kwakunaleya ngozi yesitimela neloli ngaphambi kokuba sifike neRAF basebekhona bephuma bengena emakhaya umnyango nomnyango bebhalisa abantu. Kepha labo bantu leyo mali bagcina bengayitholanga. Yingakho sidinga isixazululo ku-RAF ngoba i- RAF ekhona namuhla iyasho ukuthi yachibiyelwa ngabammeli bezibhalela bona ukuthi ibasize, hhayi ummangali. Ummangali uqhamuka kamuva sekunzima nokuthi uyazi ukuthi uthole u-
R53 000 ku-R5,6 million kodwa ukuthi uyongena lapho phela bokuyisivumelwano sabo bobabili. Uma kufanele ungene mhlambe kufanele uyobika kwi-Law Society, nayo engingayazi ukuthi isisiza kanjani. Yinkinga ekhona kodwa siyabafundisa abantu ukuthi nanamuhla ungeza uzokwenza isicelo esiqondile sokuxeshezelwa noma ungeza ngesinye isikhathi uzothi usungaziqhubekela noma isicelo sasiqalwe ummeli.
Uma ngabe usubona ukuthi anivumelani ne-RAF uma wawuziqalele wena usungamfaka ummeli phakathi nendawo. Siyabachazela abantu lokho kodwa isikhathi esiningi njengoba usho bafika kuqala baye khona bayothi ngena sizokuthathela bese bedla konke bahambe. Kuthi noma efanele ukuthi athole umuntu ongamsiza ekhaya akhokhelwe iRAF uthole ukuthi akasamtholi loyo muntu.
Uparaplegic or quadriplegic kodwa akamtholi umuntu ozomsiza ngoba ummeli uyanqena ukuyomtshela ukuthi ungahamba uyokhokhela umuntu ngoba uma emtshela lokho kufanele amtshele ukuthi sengikhokhelwe uR5,6 million bese ehlala umuntu engazuzi kuRAF. Yinkinga le eyiyona engicabanga ukuthi nePhalamende kufanele lisilekelele uma siletha lo Mthethosivivinywa. Ngiyabonga.
Question 560:
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you so much,
House Chairperson and good afternoon to all the hon members. Let me first thank the hon Lubengo for this important question. I will just outline what are the interventions in relation to the question that he has asked. As we are all aware that townships and rural areas were developed under apartheid as dormitory labour standing economies, today these areas have the highest unemployment and poverty levels in the country. The development of small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs, and co-operatives remains a core strategy to create livelihood opportunities and jobs in these respective areas.
To this end, as the department, we are to craft up some interventions that must therefore assist businesses in the
townships and rural areas. We have a scheme that we launch that is called Trep - the Township and Rural Enterprise Programme, which aims to assist informal micro and small enterprises to grow their businesses. The financial package that we offer here is looking at offering a maximum of
R1 million per small enterprise, which goes towards working capital, the cost of equipment or any other key packs.
The financial package is currently structured in the form of a blended finance package, which means it is a grant and loan at the same time - and it goes to 100%, which is the grant with a maximum cap and R1 million as I indicated in the entire loan. Given the need and feedback from stakeholders, we have reviewed these instruments and have agreed on a nonfinancial support of up to R300 000 for equipment and stock, when necessary, for spaza shops and general dealers. We are currently awaiting the National Treasury and Parliament to approve this request that we have submitted. Nevertheless, we are not sitting and waiting.
In the current format, Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, continues to implement Trep. It provides blended financing, as I have said, and during this financial year we did come to this House and announce that we are going to disburse
R909 422 million to enterprises that operate in townships and villages. For the financial year that recently ended, which talks to your 2022-23, we had disbursed R1,5 billion to enterprises operating in townships and rural areas.
The key instrument for providing financial support to township and rural enterprises is the Informal and Micro Enterprises Development Programme, IMEDP, which is allocated R23 million as we announced during the Budget Vote speech. We also have developed the Shared Economic Infrastructure Facility, Seif, which is allocated R77 million. The Informal and Micro Enterprises Development Programme is a finance support instrument, while Seif is geared to financially invest in the provision of business infrastructure support for SMMEs and co- operatives.
We also have the Co-operatives Development and Support Programme, which was transferred from Sefa to the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, and it gives 100% grant to the co-operatives. Those that are in the secondary phase they get up to R5 million and those that are in the primary phase looking at growing their businesses, they get
R2,5 million and those that are starting up they get up to R1,5 million.
Looking into the funding that is provided by the development finance institutions, DFIs, to the township and rural businesses, we have recently developed the small businesses and co-operatives funding policy wherein we’re trying to ensure that the state does pay for the developmental dividend by ensuring that the provision of easy access towards finance by small businesses in the different stages of business development. Again, we are trying to ascertain authority in terms of saying, as the co-ordinating department, there should be a framework that assists everybody who is involved in the financing and funding of small businesses. And therefore, we look at the different segments and provide direction to the entire country, both government and private sector.
The policy has been approved already by Cabinet. We had called for public comments and will be going back to incorporate those. Amongst the things that the policy proposes is the establishment of the fund of funds that will tap into the private sector funds and of course, bring on board also the public sector funds in order to bridge the gap that people complain about in terms of the credit gap amongst the SMMEs which is estimated to be at R350 billion.
It also looks at the collateral by providing for a movable collateral registry. Most financiers, when they want to fund the small businesses, they raise lots of things because they are scared of risks, and this is why we are saying that we should be able to look at certain things that an entrepreneur would have that would enable one to have access to financing. Thank you so much, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, and let’s remind one another. You have four minutes to the initial question and I gave more. So, let’s stick to that. I used my discretion, kaloku [after all]. Hon Phiri take charge as you are allowed by Rule 137(10).
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Ke be ke kgopela mohl a no lokela ditsebjana ka gore ke tlile go bolela ka segageio.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Akakuzwanga okwamanje.
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Ee, ke ka lebaka leo ke mo kgopelago gore a dire bjalo. Ke a tseba gore o bolela leleme leo le sa swanego le la ka.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Yebo, unawe.
English:
Are you okay, Minister. Thank you for warning her.
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Bjalo ka moromiwa, gape, bjalo ka Leloko la Palamente, ke botiiia mohl gore ka lebaka la go hloka melawana ya dikgwebopotlana tia magareng le dikgwebopotlana tie dinnyane nakong ye, a ka kgona gore Molaokakanywa wo moswa woo o lego gona goba woo o iiiinywago o fetoiwe gore dikhampani tie dinnyane di hwetie tihelete? O ka kgona go ba tliietia bokaone le maemo a kaone dikgwebong tia bona?
Ka go realo mohl, o a tseba gore go na le mabakana ao a ba thibelago gore ba humane thuio yeo re e bitiago “red tape” ka Sejatlhapi. Rena ka Sepedi re re ke theipi ye khubedu. Leka go
hlalosetia badudi ba Afrika-Borwa gore o ka ba thuia bjang gore theipi yeo ye khubedu e ntihiwe. Ke a leboga.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are you okay, ma’am?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I’m good,
Chairperson. Thank you, hon member. Let me first start here that we had introduced to Parliament the Small Enterprise Amendment Bill which looks at addressing what the hon member is talking about that we create a legislative environment that takes into consideration the challenges that are faced by small and medium enterprises in our country. Amongst the things that we have proposed in the Bill is the incorporation of Sefa - which is the financing agency under the department, and the Co-operative Banks Development Agency, CBDA, which as things stand is under National Treasury - into Seda, which is the one that provides business development support to SMMEs.
By doing this, we are trying to make sure that we create a one-stop shop for all the entrepreneurs who want to access services.
Indeed, it becomes a red tape that every entrepreneur has to go to various places – they must go to labour, go to this
area, go to Sefa, go to Seda - that is time consuming and costly to entrepreneurs. That is why we are not only proposing the establishment of that agency. We are saying it has to operate in a manner that provides a co-ordinated intervention to the constituency that we serve. We are talking about digitising some of the services and the products that will be offered through the agency that looks at ensuring that at the tip of your finger on your phone, you are able to access the SA Revenue Service, Sars - which you must apply for a tax clearance certificate from, the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF and any other body, but more so, the municipality that must be able to provide you with a permit or licence for you to operate. All of this we are doing because we are trying to really deal with the red tapes that we are talking about. Of course, there is lots of red tape interventions that we are proposing, which is why we are working with the Presidency in dealing with those. We have identified more than 169 pieces of legislations which are excluding small businesses. This is why amongst them, amendments that we are making, we are saying there is a need to repeal certain legislations, but also give the regulatory powers to the department to be able to enforce some of the things that we are talking about. [Time expired.]
... on pre-investment and post-investment support.
Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Minister, I think we can agree that access to finance is superimportant for SMME’s and for any business, but even more important is access to electricity. Now, I understand that Minister Patel has launched an Energy Resilience Fund through the DTI. But I will assume that that is targeted at normal businesses - businesses that are a little bit more formal. Eight months ago, you announced an energy relief plan for the Small Business Development department which will target micro enterprises, like all our hairdressers. We have not heard anything since about this energy relief plan. Would you please clarify if it is still happening. And what is the plan for micro and small businesses to get energy or electricity relief? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you so much,
hon member. Just to clarify - when we announced the Energy Relief Fund, we didn’t say it is targeting only informal businesses. With a broader constituency that cuts across small and medium enterprises which are struggling to pay us back the finances that we have given to them. Indeed, we announced it, which is why you saw National Empowerment Fund, NEF, and the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, coming on board. We worked together as DFIs. But from our side, because we were tapping into funds that are under Trep - the programme that I
spoke about earlier, we were targeting the most vulnerable groups.
We therefore had to seek permission from National Treasury which unfortunately was declined. National Treasury is coming back to Parliament. As things stand, when the Minister comes, they are considering to say how best can they go about ensuring that they can ascertain who’s getting funds and be able to provide those funds to us. Regarding the micro businesses though, we are not sitting and waiting. We have the programme that I spoke about earlier - the IMEDP. We’ve been going around, and people have requested for generators themselves and we have bought those for a number of informal enterprises that we have.
The continued support that Sefa provides is that people are still able to apply for funding without space defined for solar, but if there is a need for that, all the alternatives of energy solutions that are provided, they are able to apply from Sefa and get that without specialising on energy. So, there is support that is continuing through the existing products. It is just that we wanted to create a specific fund for the energy relief. Thank you, Chair.
Ms A M SIWISA: Thank you, Chair. Minister, it is not correct that the Department of Small Business Development and its entities is expanding. The majority of its offices are only functional in the cities. the ones in the rural areas are dysfunctional. It is an expansion without quality and it is meaningless. If you go to Estcourt, Empangeni, Vryheid and Jozini in Kwazulu-Natal - some of the areas where I do political work, there are no functional offices. Minister, is it possible that there are lease agreements and budgets for your department and its entities that are diverted to do election campaigns and is not expanding the services for the SMME’s?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you so much.
The problem of being in a competitive space is that you can’t tell a difference when government is doing its responsibility towards the citizens and everything tends to be interpreted as a campaign. We owe it to the people of South Africa, whether we are ANC or they are not. That is why we are not looking for any party affiliation when we provide the services that we are providing. Now, the hon member raises an important thing that she claims that in the areas that she has highlighted, the offices are dysfunctional. If it is so, hon members, because the reports that we get in those areas is that there are
requests every time, there are disbursements that are made towards the enterprises and therefore we will monitor that because we can’t dispute or dismiss anything. But we do get reports through the provincial managers and the branch managers. We thank you for providing your oversight. Let’s just hope that it is effective and true in a sense. Thank you so much, hon Chair.
Question 590:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, let me firstly issue an invitation to hon Essack or hon Cachalia or any other hon member to come and learn about some of these businesses that state-owned enterprises, SOES, are involved in rather than pontificate about them or politicise them. If you have a better solution on one or other aspects, we are quite willing to listen and implement those in the national interest. I await their responses to the invitation.
Chairperson, in response to hon Cachalia’s question the facts are as follows:
At Transnet, one board member resigned for personal reasons, two executives resigned - as we know - related to the state of affairs within the company and performance and one executive moved to another major company, which is a pure job change. In
Eskom, the chief executive officer, CEO, resigned for his own nonperformance and attitude to serving in the institution. The chief operating officer, COO, stayed on for a while and then resigned to take up another position in the industry. The new CEO of Eskom will be appointed before the end of the year as I’ve said before. The Transnet board has initiated the process of recruitment over chief executive officer, CEO, and other senior managers.
So, with great respect to hon Cachalia, this does not constitute a flurry of resignations. We need to urgently drive change - and as I have said repeatedly this afternoon – to focus on operational effectiveness. In the case of Transnet and Eskom, the boards are attending to this by developing the recovery plans. Whilst these processes are underway - as I have said before – there are interim executives in place to ensure business continuity.
In summary, our experience is that there is, in fact, a positive response from staff to some of these changes who are eager to take up the operational performance to new levels.
This will have a very positive impact in due course on the institution, on the economy and on the fiscus which have all been negatively impacted. We will be increasingly critical of
declining operational effectiveness and negative external impact of these sorts of decline. Where necessary, we will take the appropriate actions. Of course, finally Chairperson, we recognise that we live in a post truth world where you can manufacture all sorts of narratives and irrelevant explanations, for example, we are trying to privatise everything to mislead the public rather than focus on what we are doing, which is repairing these highly damaged institutions, returning them to operational performance that is acceptable to all of us and serving the country and the economy better. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Minister, with due respect to you now, let’s cut out the diplomacy and we talk about these dying institutions. Who has been the cause of all this failures? I mean, let’s just cut the chase and let’s get down to the root cause of the issues because honestly, Minister, you have played with the lives of South Africans and I say this to you with due respect. You, you and the ANC and honestly, plainly stupid policies. I will tell you why. Now that most of these entities are dying, there is an opportunity for private and public participation. Hon Patel, thank you for paying attention.
The shareholder structure is wrong, political interference abounds and corporates within these monopolies are incorrectly integrated. The problem is not one of capability, Minister, it is one of governance. That is not rocket science. Surely, it is true that if one were to offer Elon Musk; the Google Boys; Apple; Team Kukho and Amazon chairperson, Jeff Bezos; the opportunity to run these companies under these conditions, surely, they will laugh at you and wish you good luck.
So, Minister the question is: Should these entities not be split up like the long awaited unbundling of Eskom into three units; generation, transmission, and of course, distribution and then sold all concessions off to private operators with the state, of course, securing the operating rail environment from daily rampant theft which you alluded to earlier?
So, finally, would you not agree with experts in the country that this constitutes stupid red tape and your meddling with personnel that is constituted to the demise of these entities which you admit to, Minister? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Indeed, Chairperson, hon Essack let’s cut ... [Inaudible.] ... You live in a delusional world and you want to deny state capture. You are an advocate
for anything that the private sector can do, will always do better. However, if you watch some of the daily papers and the turnover of CEOs within the private sector, you never asked the question, why is company x removing a CEO and in one instance bringing back a CEO who was there 15 years ago, why? Why did a major corporation which is a dominant player on our stock exchange ask the CEO to leave? No explanation. There must have been something wrong with performance there which required the rotation of CEOs to actually take place. So, move away from the delusional world.
I reissued the invitation to you to come and learn about our business, don’t assume what is wrong. I want to challenge you in that regard. Now, forget about the invitation. That you lack knowledge, you lack an understanding of the root causes of the problem and you need to be “educated” about what the issues are. I am sure you have somewhat of a creative mind that can contribute some solutions if there is a constructive spirit. However, your answer cannot be given to the private sector. Nevertheless, I understand that you belong to a party that constrains you in terms of what you can think and what you can say. You are only allowed to say “private sector” because if you say anything else you will be fired from your party. You see.
That’s the challenge that you face admittedly as well to the South African public that the state has no role, but then you are living in an imaginary world. Without the state, the financial disaster of 2008/9/10 would have killed the economy across the world. The state intervened to save it, without the state COVID-19 would have been a much bigger disaster for humanity than we had until now. Think again. Thank you.
Ms R T SIWEYA: Good afternoon to the Minister. Minister, noting that the turnaround and restructuring of the SOEs is embedded around competent, merit-based public sector systems and a non-narrow political agenda, I am more interested in understanding when will South Africans see the envisaged changes in these SOEs? Timeframes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: If you look at what this administration inherited in 2018, where there were boards that were collaborating in virtually the complete extraction of any money in these institutions for the redirection of the money in areas where it can actually be – let’s put it politely – repurposed, where managers were appointed because they could enable theft and corruption to actually take place and compare it to where we are today, there is a huge difference of ... [Inaudible.] ... Load shedding, for example, is not a problem
that arose in 2018, it has its origins in 1998 period. Soon after that, the inability to realise that we need to build power stations at the right time, we have admitted that.
So, the changes are visible, changes are there but those changes are not enough. We need to do more in each of these SOEs to move up a gear in more ways than one, to improve performance and to improve revenue. Each of these SOEs must pay dividends to the state, not look for bailouts from the state. That is the condition that we need to get to. It will take time to get there because - as I said earlier on - Mr hon Essack, come and sit with us and understand the business, walk the floor then you will understand the repair work that actually needs to be done. It is like that broken car you might have bought when you were young, you know, fixing it is not going to happen overnight.
Nevertheless, the improvements are there, we can say to South Africans that where we have shortcomings as far as the improvements are concerned, we have recovery plans that are being put in place, changes in executives where that is necessary in order to make sure that the economy is served well. So, thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Esaack, the portfolio committee is there for these arguments when somebody responds. Can we proceed, hon Maotwe. Who is coming up? Hon Ceza.
Mr K CEZA: Minister, as the Economic Freedom Fighters we maintain that the problem is not of a flurry of resignation, it is the employer. We are told that the employer interferes with everything that is happening in these entities. The employer wants to micromanage seasoned executives to achieve what we don’t know. We are in complete agreement with the National Chairperson of the ANC, Mr Gwede Mantashe, when he says: The flurry of resignations is happening under your watch. The problem must be you, if they are happening under your watch. The question is: Why are you not doing the dignified thing and resign? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I am sure hon Ceza would like to see some of us disappearing because we stand in the way of theft, we stand in the way of corruption, we stand in the way of patronage so that each of the doors can be widely opened and people who are used to doing the kinds of things that we are talking about carry on doing them. I am sorry, that’s not what we struggled for, that’s not what I was
an activist for 50 years and others similarly as well. So, you will have to tolerate us for a while.
You said you are told about employer interference, I am not the employer, the employer is the board. So, get at least the facts right. Yes! but the shareholder is not the employer. Hon Essack, you had your time. As I said, if you feel like visiting my office you are welcome, don’t shout across the floor. So, what you are told is incorrect you should get your facts right as to who is the employer. Educate yourself just like hon Essack about how these things operate within a state- owned company. That will enable you to be more dignified about the questions you ask. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: If I may take the question on behalf of hon Inkosi, Chair. Minister, shortly after the resignation of the board Chairperson of Eskom recently and, of course, this comes on the back of the resignation of the CEO in February, or not resignation, is of the termination of his contract, the allegation is that, amongst others, as chairperson of the board resigned because of the interference of the shareholder and not the interface on the key critical issue of the appointment of the CEO. So, the question becomes, Minister, do you have a preferred candidate for CEO which has led to the
extent that you are not in agreement with the outcomes of the interview process? For how long will the situation continue without a CEO at Eskom?
So, the real issue is that, did you have a hand in the ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, I am asking to clear it. That is the whole point of the question ... [Laughter.] ... So, the whole point, Minister, is to then say, what has been your role ... [Time expired.] ... of the appointment of the CEO? ... [Inaudible.] ... discretion ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, before you respond you must also realise that the Rules of this House and such as Rule 142(7) allows you to respond to only one supplementary question. He asked three or four, proceed.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: It is all right. I am in a generous mood, Chairperson. He has recently become my friend again. So, we will have to respond to him unless he changes his mind tomorrow as well. So, hon Hlengwa/Buthelezi, the fact that there are rules set out in guidelines that apply across government and therefore apply to Eskom, Transnet and anybody else. That, the board starts a recruitment process, either through a certain company or through adverts or through both.
The board will look at all of the candidates, narrow them down to the long list, narrow it down to a shortlist, interview the candidates, send them to various types of tests and they will then choose three names which they will submit.
The Cabinet then has the option through myself, but usually with colleagues as well from the Cabinet, which was the case with the previous CEO where there were four Ministers that conducted the interviews. We will choose our preferred candidate but take cognisance of the board review in this particular account. On this occasion in case of Eskom, one name was submitted. All we did was to say, follow the guidelines. The guidelines have now been followed and three names will be coming in shortly. As I have said before, including this afternoon, Eskom will have a CEO before the end of the year.
Interference and preferred candidate, that is all nonsense as far as I am concerned. It has passed all this post ... [Inaudible.] ... that I am talking about. These are the rules, I am there to apply the rules and when the rules are complied with, we move to the next step. Thank you.
Question 600:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson, in her absence, thank you to hon Maotwe for the question. As I indicated to her previous question, we have had a number of instances of operational failures and shortcomings in the case of Transnet. So yes, we’ve looked into the matter, particularly through the board. Secondly, as I’ve indicated earlier on, the freight rail division has seen a 6,7% decline in overall volumes from 226 million in 1718 to 149 million in 2022-23 and there are a number of instances like that.
On 1 September I directed the board to statements and a letter that they must give attention, as I said earlier on, to an operational transformation within the various divisions of Transnet, identify the root causes of the problem and attend to them, ensure that there’s proper accountability and oversight, undertake a review of the management to see if the right people are in the right place, ensure that there is transparency about data and the digitisation of systems and various other factors that the board has taken into account.
They got to a point where they have crafted a draft recovery plan, as I indicated earlier on as well, and that recovery plan will go through various processes of refinement in the coming days and weeks, and will be implemented to achieve
quick wins which show immediate improvements in the performance of Transnet and would also set out short, medium and long term goals that the Transnet executive, both the current and the incoming, will have to comply with.
So yes, we have moved quite far in this particular regard, and I want to extend my thanks to the hard work that the board has put in and the interim management is very committed to executing this recovery plan. Thank you.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, the appointment of the former CEO of Transnet was misguided. The former CEO did not repossess the requisite skills from track record to manage complex system. There is evidence of destruction of value in their previous employment, yet you employed people who pushed for privatisation of strategic public assets. The exodus of resignations in your department destabilises the department. You are the Minister responsible. Now that you already mentioned that you won’t resign to save what is left of Transnet, who stands to benefit in the private sector, and what is your interest? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: The CEO is not a former CEO yet, hon member, so you might want to take account of
that. That happens at the end of this month. Secondly, as I’ve said repeatedly to those who want to hear that there is no attempt at privatisation, nor do we have destabilisation. What we have is a lack of performance.
By all accounts, particularly with experts who have 20, 30 and
40 years of experience in the rail sector in South Africa, there is every possibility available to improve the performance of rail and that is what the board is undertaking to do through the recovery plan. So as far as we are concerned, we will see improvements as we go on, as I repeatedly said this afternoon.
As we also said, some people in life, social and potential at some point, might reach a point like all of us because we are human, of shortcomings when particular challenges emerge. If we have the humility, we will admit to our shortcomings and then do what is necessary. If we are lacking in emotional intelligence and the ability to take feedback, which is constructive, then whether you are in the private sector or public sector, you have to bear the consequences. But let me repeat, nothing is being privatised. Thank you.
Mr N E DLAMINI: Hon House Chair, in terms of operational inefficiencies, more especially at Transnet National Ports Authority, TNPA, and Transnet Port Terminals, TPT, is there a plan perhaps to try and reinstate what was known as Container Terminal Operations Contract, CTOC, to the workers because after the announcement that that CTOC is no longer going to be available there were operational challenges in terms of efficiency, more especially in container handling? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: As we said earlier on - House Chairperson, and thanks to the hon Dlamini for the question - when the board is looking into developing and continues to do so, the recovery plan, they look at all aspects of performance, whether it is TNPA, which is the ports authority for those who are not familiar or the ports terminals, which is what TPT stands for, or TFR, which is the rail area or TPL, which is the pipeline area across the board, they will and have been looking at performance. The board currently, for example, is in Gqeberha meeting the TNPA executives at the head office there to understand what they do, what their challenges are and how they can assist this team to overcome some of those challenges.
I think what hon Dlamini is referring to is a kind of incentive scheme that used to operate at the TPT level and there is a review of some of those. So, we are interacting with the union even at my level as well, so that we get an understanding of what is required. As soon as we are ready and our explorations in this regard and consultations are complete, you will certainly find that we will announce the new direction as far as this is concerned.
Finally, we also want to start looking at how within the state sector workers actually have, if you like, skin in the game.
Meaning they are also beneficiary of the improvements in revenue, and particular that these entities might be experiencing in due course. We are undertaking a study in this regard as to what our options are so that the beneficiaries are not just the top management or a few business people but also workers themselves who are not just empowered in the sense of skills but are also beneficiaries in other senses as well. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: House Chairperson, to the Minister, with due respect, as much as you allude to the fact that I need to be educated, but you would respect the fact that under your custodianship every one of these entities has all but
collapsed. Dividends - we will come to speak about dividends, none of these entities paid dividends except South African Forestry Company Limited, SAFCOL, in the last five years, which has paid some 900 and somewhat thousand – you will remember my written question.
You speak of broken cars and South Africans speak of a broken government, Minister. I mean let’s smell the coffee. I say to you again, you have cost the country untold losses in failed export opportunities. Now, digest this for immediate reference. You have cost this country untold losses. Why I say that to you? Because agriculture and mining sectors have lost out on billions of exports, again because of yours and Transnet’s failure. Our rail network and pipelines are being vandalised every day - we pointed that out earlier. This is
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Essack, your time is up ... [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: Why? Don’t you want me to put him on the spot? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, your time is up ... [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: But you know National Treasury is paying heavily, Minister. So, will you please consider the last six months stepping down and taking ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Essack, please don’t do that. I gave you an extra minute ... [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: Did you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I did ... [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: I accept that, thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please take your seat. There was no question, but the Rules allow for a person to make a statement and that is what you just did. It is up to you, hon Minister, if you want to respond.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chair, before you took that seat, I did say to hon Essack that elections are
still sometime away, and that he should be patient with what line his political party is developing to attack the ANC and so on. I also reminded him that there will never be more than a 20% party, but that truth is hard to bear it would appear. The third thing, he has been given a line which I understand, that you have to attack this chap and get him to resign. He has been saying this thing all the time when I interact with him, whether it’s in the committee or in the Assembly. One would expect that hon Essack is a lot more creative than that. That he won’t just pontificate on the issues that he hasn’t responded to one point I made repeatedly. Are you going to come and have tea to learn the business so that you can be asking the right type of questions? Right now, you are making a joke out of your questions and that’s your fault, not mine. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Agb lid Swart, dis nou u geleentheid.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair and Minister, the ACDP is in agreement with you about the damage done to Transnet by state capture and corruption. Minister, you referred to interventions and a draft recovery plan for Transnet which we
really trust will succeed as it is in the national interest. We need to look beyond party political interests ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Askies [sorry], did you get it because there was this sound? Are you okay? Thank you. I am sorry for that, hon Swart.
Mr S N SWART: Part of Transnet’s draft plan we understand is for government to take over R61 billion of it’s R130 billion debt as well as to service its debt obligations. Whilst we accept, Minister, it might be premature to ask this given that it is still a draft recovery plan which you indicated still needs to go through a process. Would such a financial intervention be affordable given the financial constraints facing government, and would this not be a moral hazard where state owned entities know they can obtain finances whenever in need? Thank you, Minister. By the way, I might need to come have some tea with you to understand this process better. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think the other problem is that you had two mics on there. Yes, it was on. Okay, it is fine. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chair, thank you, at last somebody is taking up a cup of tea with me. Hon Swart and I were in the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises in 2017 and early 2018 and we interrogated Eskom on the issue of state capture, so he understands it well. You might also want to invite hon Essack to join you in this particular regard.
So, the second point around moral hazard is the correct one, and I don’t think we want to fall into that trap. The reality is that Eskom does have a debt book of about one hundred and fifty odd billion rands. Something needs to give, in the first instance, performance needs to give. In other words, earn more revenue by performing better and bring in more revenue into the fiscus and also into your books as well. Secondly, look for creative financial solutions which might or might not involve partnerships with the private sector, but certainly not privatisation – let me repeat that.
There are many forms that are across government. If you speak to my colleague, Minister Chikunga, she will tell you about Sanral and the concessioning of various highways and the 20 years of concessioning and the benefits that it will bring to South Africa. There are similar options and many others that
are available to us as well. All of those options are being examined so that we come up with a creative set of answers that solves the financial bind, if you like.
Let us be frank – there’s a payment coming up shortly of about R6 billion and we have to find the R6 billion in some way.
There is hard work going on by technical people to say how do we address this particular question. I think between December this year and March next year there’s another R6 billion of debt that needs to be paid. We need to find an answer to that as well and some of the answers, as I said and I repeat, needs to come from operational improvements. There’s a huge opportunity for Transnet to earn a lot more than they are bringing into the books at this point in time, but that needs to be combined with the other creative financial means as well, in particular, how do we bring new infrastructure and new machinery onboard? This is where other arms of the state could be of assistance to Transnet as well. So those are also options that the board and ourselves are looking into, and we will come up with solutions on some of these. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon members, the three hours for questions is over but we will now take questions that stood over from Wednesday, 7 June in terms of
Rule 144(1) and supplementary questions. That is the other 30 minutes that the hon House Chair talked to. Now, the question is asked to the Minister of Small Business Development by the hon Jacobs and it is Question 253. You are allowed, mama.
Question 253:
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair,
as Minister Patel indicated earlier in relation to the role that has been played by Industrial Development Corporation, IDC and its National Empowerment Fund, NEF in relation to ensuring that we minimise the impact of load shedding around small businesses, we have joined hands and of course, at the centre of it was ensuring that we also look at the environment wherein Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs operating in. During the Budget Vote, we once again announced that we are going to be establishing product markets that will be green economy buildings so that we can be able to bring all these small businesses in their respective areas to make sure that they can trade, where possible, under one area. This is because they also complain about issues of lease fees and load shedding. We are doing all of this, but at the centre of it is to say How do we make sure that the enterprises are able to benefit again in the crisis that we are faced with.
That is why we partnered with the Department of Higher Education and Training, Department of Electricity, including Labour and Employment, to ensure that we can train installers that must work with their respective entities and provide a service to everybody in need. We are working with the Energy and Water Sector Education Training Authority, EWSETA. We will soon be sending some of the entrepreneurs and electricians to China to make sure that they can be taught on how to manufacture some of the solar panels so that the monies that we are using in the crisis can also be used in the country to create jobs. Thank you so much, hon Chair.
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Modulasetulo, ke botiiia Tona gape gore Kgoro ya Tlhabollo ya Dikgwebopotlana e tla ioma le Kgoro ya Bogwebi le Bohlagiii go phethagatia mananeo a mmuio ao a thuiago dikgwebopotlana go fokotia ditshenyagalelo tia kgaotio ya mohlagase naa? Mmuio o swanetie o be le leano le letee la go thuia dikgwebopotlana tieo gore re kgone go fihlelela ditshenyagalelo tieo di hlotiwego ke kgaotio ya mohlagase - ke e ra “load shedding.” Ka nnete re a dumela gore e senyeditie kudu borakgwebopotlana. Bjalo, lenaneo la gago ke le le fe? Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEZOPHUHLISO LWAMASHISHINI ASAKHASAYO: Sihlalo
weNdlu, bendiyikhankanyile ngaphambili ukuba siyasebenzisana nesebe likaMphathiswa uPatel, ukuqinisekisa ukuba urhulumente yedwa. Ndiyibethelele into yokuba isebe eli ndikulo lijongene nokuququzelela imisebenzi...
English:
... that talk to SMMEs. Now, the Department of Trade and Competition gave us a list of localised products that we can tap into. This is meant to ensure that, as I indicated earlier, we can place certain entrepreneurs in the value chain of the renewable energies, not for them to continue being consumers, but for them to co-create and be able to participate in the space that we are talking about whether we are talking about maintenance, whether you are talking about repairs.
Yes, hon member, it is a crisis that we are facing and the negative impact that is felt by small businesses. We believe that when we work together as government and the private sector because it is the private sector that must unbundle their supply chains so that small businesses can be able to
participate meaningfully and effectively in the economy. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Minister, the National Small Enterprises Bill which seeks to amend the current Bill, as you alluded to, wants to amalgamate Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda and Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa to create an ombudsman, which we support and I think would be very good for the industry, but it also seeks to give the Minister new powers. These powers are very mysterious. They claim to identify unfair business practices, but the legislation is very unclear on what is unfair business practices. It seems like the Minister will, at her sole discretion, be able to identify these practices. Can the Minister please explain to us, especially in light of micro enterprises and all of the different families and people who are involved in that industry, what would be an example of the use of these powers, what would she deem as being unfair practices that will be targeted with these new powers? Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEZOPHUHLISO LWAMASHISHINI ASAKHASAYO: Apha
eMzantsi Afrika siyabona ukuba kukho abantu abarhwebayo ezitalatweni nasezirenkini. Aba abantu abayihlawuli irhafu
kwaye abanye bathengisa ukutya okumoshakeleyo ezirenkini nakwezinye iindawo. Xa sisithi uMphathiswa makabenamagunya okulawula olu rhwebu sifuna ukuqinisekisa ukuba ...
English:
... there is fair trade because it can never be fair if there are those that are not compliant to the existing rules of the country. The second aspect, as much as you are talking about the Small Enterprise Act, which section 18 stipulates that the Minister must issue guidelines which we are making on the amendments, not guidelines but directives specifically to intervene on an economy that has an influx of people who refuse to be compliant. Therefore, they live at the expense of others and deprive South Africa, not only of creating jobs but also of growing its own economy. Our South African businesses, big corporates and small are complaining that they are being replaced by them.
The laws of this country allow for everyone to trade, but there are set parameters. If you go to the Businesses Act, it is clear, that for one to operate at a local level, they must be given a permit by municipalities. There are areas that are rezoned by municipalities which are residential areas, areas reserved for business purposes, but we find people trading in
the residential areas. Yes, it is because our people have crises, but as much as they have crises, it means we must assist them.
That is why we emphasise the development aspect of the name of the department’s small business to say we must assist them because they have taken an initiative to start a business.
Therefore, to help them comply with whatever that is required because we use state law, I mean state taxpayer's money to fund the businesses. Now, everybody must be compliant in the regulations. This applies to both South Africans and non-South Africans that will not be compliant. But for South African businesses, I am saying, the department, including as Seda is there to assist them to walk the path.
On unfair trade, again, the issue is that, if you go to the Immigration Act, which is very clear about which foreigners can trade in South Africa and an investment amount of
R5 million, as determined by the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition. Now, we have seen so many countries in the region and worldwide that are able to identify and reserve certain businesses for their own citizens that vote for them and serve their country so that they can curb unemployment.
That law, amongst other things, must be able to say, as we are
expected to do these areas, let them be served for this and that to give effect to a true freedom, economic freedom of the people of South Africa. That is what we intend to do in the legislation that we are amending.
Mr M HLENGWA: Chair, Minister of course, the other consequences of load shedding has been the adverse impact on small businesses, some having to close down and others, there have been massive job losses, job cuts and so on. Now, that being the case, it happens in an environment where the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF itself is not functioning in a manner which inspire public confidence, nor is it meeting its responsibilities to the best of its ability. So, the question is, what interventions is your department having to assist the affected workers who lost their jobs working with the UIF, notwithstanding the challenges to the very least, facilitate ease of process for those people who have to bear the brutal brunt of what load shedding has done. Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon member, we are
working with the Department of Labour and Employment, specifically the UIF to make sure that we can train those that lost their jobs, not only during COVID-19 period, but
throughout the years. As things stand, we are awaiting an agreement that is looking at training about 7200 people that will in turn be entrepreneurs in different sectors such as the beauty industry that we see the high levels of foreign influx, including South Africans who are not compliant. We are trying to formalise.
One of the members mentioned the fact that Minister Nzimande was able to launch the hairdressing course that is funded by National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas. We are doing the same thing for the beauty industry because you can see women in South Africa and men love looking good and this is why when commercialised, our people must not be left behind. Amongst other things is the issue of film production in every township or village, every weekend there is a funeral that is photographed and pictograph. So, we are saying let us tap into that to make sure that we can skill these people that lost their jobs and turn them to be entrepreneurs. Those that want to. The fact that you are not employed, it does not mean automatically you can be entrepreneurs, but those that want to work for entrepreneurs they feel free to work for them. So, those are the interventions that we are bringing across the different sectors and the different segments of our economy.
Thank you, House Chair.
Question 302:
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: In June 2023, 33
informal and micro enterprises in Matatiele were supported with tools and equipment. The provision of these tools of trade was done by our department, in partnership with local stakeholders and in particular, the municipality of Matatiele that is ANC-led. Key to this partnership is the understanding that together with the local Small Enterprise Development Agency branch, we support beneficiaries to receive nonfinancial business support, including marketing, business and financial skills development, access to opportunities within the municipality and beyond.
We are working with municipalities to ensure that we have them understand the importance of having good local economic development, LED strategies that must in turn be able to respond to the challenges first that are faced by the municipality, but also be able to identify economic agro- drivers in their respective areas, so that when we all plug in from province and national, we are responding to a plan that the municipality has developed and becomes all the support that we are talking about this financial year.
The previous financial year 2022-23, we have provided 226 skills development and other business development support interventions to small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs and co-operatives in Matatiele Local Municipality alone. Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda has reached to 267 SMMEs and co-operatives through entrepreneurship awareness sessions in Matatiele. Ninety-eight small enterprises have been trained on basic business skills. Twenty-five of these have been approved for the wholesale and retail Sector education and Training Authority, Seta programme. We are training them on entrepreneurship. We assist them everything that talks to retail and we are able to provide them with stock management training and the stock itself.
In addition to the above, Seda has provided support to nine formal businesses through the Flood Relief Programme to the value of R6 million. Informal businesses and financial support that was provided by Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa supporting SMMEs within Matatiele just between last year and now.
IsiXhosa:
Siza kuqhuba siye nakwabanye. Ukuba asikafiki siyeza.
English:
Thank you, House Chair.
Ms A M SIWISA: Minister. I hear that this is what you’ve done in Matatiele. But Matatiele is not the only rural area where there is a problem about SMMEs and women that want to venture to be entrepreneurs. An example that I am going to make is women in Umhlabuyalingana. There are women that are doing baskets. They don’t get the platform nor are they being recognised.
It goes to such an extent that; some people are exploiting them because these women would sell their baskets for close to R50, and then there are people that are coming in and buying them and go to Ethekwini. Some of them are even coming to Cape Town and they are going to sell these things for more money which goes close to R500.
So, what are we doing about women that are in Umhlabuyalingana, that are sitting there? The most stricken place of poverty, and these women are only relying on that. What are the plans of the Minister to ensure that those women are also getting the support that women or other entrepreneurs are getting in Matatiele?
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEZOPHUHLISO LWAMASHISHINI ASAKHASAYO: Lungu
elihloniphekileyo,eneneni amakhosikazi aseUmhlabuyalingana kubalulekile ukuba nawo afumane la maqithiqithi siwenzayo silisebe. Kodwa ke lungu elihloniphekileyo okungeyiyo inyani kukuthiamakhosikazi aseUmhlabuyalingana awazange asibona okanye alubona uncedo lukarhulumente.
NgoAgasti kulo nyaka sikuwo, uMphathiswa lo ume apha uthethayo ebesuka phaya negqiza lakhe siye kunikezela ngezixhobo zokusebenza kumakhosikazi nabantu abatsha balandawo. Kwaphaya eUmhlabuyalinga sakhile isakhiwo sabathengisi ukuze bakwazi ukuthengisa endaweni noko enesidima kwaye banganethwa xa kufuneka besebenzile.
Irenki yeeteksi le uyibona phaya isakhiwa kwaye izakuba kuza kufakwa nodederhu lweevenkile nayo incediswe lisebe eli sithetha ngalo. Zonke ke ezi zinto zezaseUmhlabuyalingana.
Andikathethi ngoMzantsi Afrika wonke apho uza kufika kwezinye iindawo sesinalo igalelo njengoko senditshilo.
Kodwa ke ngenxa yobuncinane bohahlo lwabiwo-mali asikafikeleli kuye wonke umntu. Abo sikwazileyo ukufikelela kubo sifikelele
kwaye sizakufikelela ngenye imini nakwabanye. Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Mama [Mrs] Maneli. Hon Maneli. Okay, the Whip will take it. Thank you.
Mrs G K TSEKE: Chair, let me take the question of hon Maneli. Minister, what are the objectives of the National Informal Business Upliftment Strategy Programme and what have been the deliverables from this programme for micro enterprises and co- operatives in different parts of the country? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: The National
Informal Business Upliftment Strategy seeks to do two things which centre around the upliftment of informal businesses and micro enterprises, and further render support to local chambers and local business associations and municipal local economic development forums and the offices that are the municipalities. We are focusing on those words it is important that we get bodies organised so that they can influence and inform the policies that we were making and be able to join government in the work that they do.
The programmes that I am referring to that I said the National Informal Business Upliftment Strategy, Nibus is centralised around, is the one that I spoke about earlier, the Informal Micro Enterprises Development Programme, IMEDP the one that provides equipment to the micro businesses. It goes up to
R10 000 as things stand but we have made a request again to increase it to R30 000 to all the informal businesses that qualify.
The second one is the Shared Economic Infrastructure Facility. As I mentioned that most of the businesses are complaining that they can’t afford rentals. Others are saying the places that we are trading from are not decent enough. So, we then said, let us join hands with the municipalities and the private sector to make sure that we can build decent structures, wherein these businesses can be housed, and those are the objectives of the Nibus. Thank you, House Chairperson.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M HLENGWA: Yini, Nithuswa yini? Ngingumkhulumeli weqembu. Kungumsebenzi wami ukwazi yonke into ngeqembu leNkatha.
Ningesabi. Ningesabi.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ihambile imizuzu yakho, thina asinendaba.
Mnu M HLENGWA: Hhawu ...
English:
... discretion ...
IsiZulu:
... mfowethu hhawu.
English:
Mr M HLENGWA: Minister, obviously government’s current standing operating procedure is the District Development model, DDM and much of the work that you do requires co- operation with municipalities. Of course, we all know that the state of health of the municipality in Matatiele is a problem. There have been calls amongst others for it to be placed under section 139 because of financial management which is questionable.
What work are you doing to assist that municipality so that your programmes don’t get lost, in so far as ensuring that you respond to the governance challenges there, otherwise it
becomes fruitless and wasteful expenditure to rely on people whom down the line will not be able to sustain the initiatives that you so eloquently explained. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Earlier on I made
reference to us working with the LED offices at the municipal level. This is because they are critical stakeholders the work that we do because small businesses trade at that level. Now, you are correct to say most of the municipalities have a challenge in relation to driving local economic development, which is why we then partnered with the respective departments in terms of higher education, training and science and innovation, including Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF to say there is lots of unemployed graduates in our country. Can we take them and place them in the municipalities in order to assist us with the challenges that are faced by municipalities.
The local government Seta is also looking at given us a number of graduates that must go and be mentored by the people that are there. Of course, we have also approached the National School of Government to design a programme that may assist them in understanding what it is that they have to do. It is true that most municipalities are struggling especially in
terms of financial management. This is why Minister Thembi Nkadimeng does not sleep ensuring that they are working everyday with the Minister responsible for National Treasury to identify the gaps, so that they can be able to complement whatever skills are lacking in that level because the municipalities are the call phase of development out of the people that we serve.
This is why we are saying when we put the District Development Model, DDM it was meant to bring all the intergovernmental stakeholders to make sure that we work in a coherent manner.
As a result, we’ve appointed DDM co-ordinators ourselves to make sure that they can co-ordinate all of that work, not only to focus on one local municipality or one stakeholder. I hope you are satisfied with the answer. Thank you so much.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Unelisekile. [Uhleko.]
English:
There was no fourth request for the fourth supplementary question.
Afrikaans:
Nee, dit werk nie so nie.
English:
Now hon members, the time allocated for all questions has expired. The outstanding replies received will be printed on Hansard. May I request members to stand and wait for the Chair and the Mace to leave the Chamber. That concludes the business of the day.
The House is adjourned.
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