Hansard: NA: Mini-Plenary 1

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 15 Sep 2023

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
MINI PLENARY 1 - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) FRIDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSIONS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: NA: Mini-Plenary 1

 

The mini-plenary session met on the virtual platform at 14:00.

The Acting Chairperson Mr M G Mahlaule took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

VIRTUAL SITTING RULES

 

(Announcements)

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to remind you that the virtual mini plenary is deemed to be in the precinct of Parliament and constitutes a meeting of the NA for debating purposes only. In addition to the rules of virtual sittings the rules of the NA including the rules of debate will apply.
Members enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the NA. Members should equally note that anything said in the virtual platform is deemed to have been said to the House and maybe ruled upon.

All members who have logged in shall be considered to be present and are requested to mute their microphones and only unmute when they are recognised to speak. This is because the mics are very sensitive and will pick up noise which might disturb the attention of other members.

When recognised to speak, please unmute your microphone and where connectivity permits connect your video. Members may make use of the icon on the bar at the bottom of their screens, and which has an option that allows the member to put up his or her to raise points of order.

The secretary will assist in alerting the Chairperson to members requesting to speak. When using the virtual system, members are urged to refrain or desist from raising unnecessary points of order or interjections.
Lastly, members, I wish to remind you that we are meeting in a mini plenary session and therefore, any decisions will be taken in a full plenary session of the Assembly.

THE CONSIDERATION OF THE REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND OVERSIGHT VISIT TO NORTHWEST PROVINCE FROM 27-31 MARCH 2023.

Ms V S SIWELA: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon members in our midst, I hereby rise to table a report of the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development having undertaken the oversight in the North-West Province from the 27-31 March 2023, adopted on Wednesday the 24th of May 2023. It reports as follows: It has got its introduction, which outlines all people and all areas tight, as well as entities which were supposed to be in that particular programme. It has got its own background, which includes all participants as well as entrepreneurs from different categories as it has been outlined in detail in the report. It also includes observations by the portfolio committee, which is also in detailed during the four days tour, and it also includes recommendations by the portfolio committee. We have once put it into the ITC, we are requesting that the report be considered by the department, Chairperson. I thank you.
IsiZulu:

Mnu M S MABIKA: Angibonge Sihlalo, wale Ndlu kuliqiniso elingephikiswe ukuthi ukuvakashela kwekomidi e-North-West, kwasivula amehlo nokwenza sabona ukuthi mkhulu umonakalo osezweni lonke kunalokhu esakubona ngoba kwakhona e-North-West la esasivakashele khona asivakashelanga zonke izindawo lapha uMnyango ufake khona izimali.

English:
The visit also proved to the committee that they need to join the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, and Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, into one entity is urgent, because keeping them as separate as they are right now, is not getting the department and anywhere. These two entities are supposed to be working hand in hand in assisting small businesses, which in most of the cases is not happening. For instance, you find that a small business gets assisted by Seda in developing a business plan, and only to find that the same plan is rejected by Sefa for funding purposes.

IsiZulu:

Bese uxakeka ukuthi kanti yini lena efunwa u-Sefa, uma ngabe u-Seda angayazi ...
English:

 ... even though they belong together. The committee discovered several discrepancies by Sefa where they claimed to have paid grants of R10 000 to small businesses, but when we got there as the Committee, not even a single one had received such. Instead, they all got R350 000, and officials were found wanting in trying to explain as to what happened. Also, the committee continued to engage with small businesses that were ought to have been given some loans by Sefa through intermediaries, and it became clear that the intermediaries are abusing the intended beneficiaries by charging them exorbitant interest fees, such as 25%, something which clearly benefits them there most. So, the issue of intermediaries becomes one important and urgent that the department should look into. Sefa in its current form looks like spending money for the sake of spending without a proper monitoring strategy. For example, the committee visited Kings and Queens where millions have been spent by Sefa through ... [Inaudible.] Match Finance. But when we got there, we were told they were last seen about a year ago, meaning Sefa did not make any follow up until when the committee visited. The question is: How many of the Kings and Queens are out there in the whole country that are not servicing their loans without being followed by Sefa.
In a case of ... [Inaudible.] ... that got R110 000 direct landing from Sefa. Sefa did not know that the machines that they bought were moved to Gauteng, which clearly shows the lack of monitoring by Sefa. Some of their clients that we visited were not available, like the one that was said to be in Mozambique when it was known that the committee was coming. Nyami Berries could not be found on site. So, we could not trace an amount of R54,4 million on the day. All these left us with more questions than answers as to how many of the similar issues are all over the country.

IsiZulu:

Sihlalo ngokwalombiko nangokuhambela kwekomidi e-North West kusivezele ngokusobala ukuthi ukuze umnyango wenze le nto ekufanele uyenze ukuthuthukisa osomabhizinisi abancane ziyadingeka izinguquko ngokushesha ukuhlanganisa ukusebenza kuka-Sefa no-Seda ...

English:

 ...if we are to see this department improving the lives of small businesses in the country. I thank you.

Isixhosa:
Nk B MATHULELWA: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili. Sasikade sinorhulumeni wengcindezelo. Namhlanje sinorhulumeni worhwaphilizo.

English:

On the 27–31 March 2023 we identified the following areas of concern regarding Sefa’s, loan programmes, implementation.
Spaza shops, support programme. All beneficiaries did not receive their full amount of R10 500, Chairperson, at interest rates charged by intermediaries - middleman.

Verification of clients funded by Sefa’S intermediaries

...[Inaudible.], post investment support to Sefa direct landing clients. It’s very disgusting to hear that in the tabling report on Wednesday 13 September 2023, Sefa is admitting that some of the Micro-Finance Intermediaries, MFIs, and Retail Financial Intermediaries, RFIs, are not registered and licensed by the national credit regulation. This is illegal and borders on criminality.

Furthermore, Sefa appears to be aware that all Spaza shops did receive only R3 500 instead of R10 500, and they did it deliberately, Chairperson. Since they are conflicted with criminality in all their activities, how can a sum money be
reported and recorded that it was given to companies later can be topped up because they said they have topped up. How can they top up? Where does the top up come from? It takes the portfolio committee to go on oversight, to only learn about it. If oversight was not conducted there were no top ups that we’re going to happen, Chairperson.

IsiZulu:

Esakubona e-North West kokungahlonishwa nokuhwaphilizwa kwezimali zosomabhizinisi abasakhasayo, izimali zabakhokhi bentela egameni losomabhizinisi abasakhasayo Sihlalo. Imihla ngemihla kuzo zonke izifundazwe. Kuyoze kusize uhulumeni we- Economic Freedom Fighters ngonyaka ozayo uma sesilithatha leli zwe. Yingakho sinxenxa bonke abantu baseMzansi Afrika ukuthi bavotele i-Economy Freedom Fighters. Ngokudayela nje
*134210024# kuphela ukuze umuntu abhalisele ukuvotela ngoba sikhathele uhulumeni wohwaphilizo weqembu elibusayo uKhongolose. Ngakho sithi u-Sefa nazo zonke izikhulu aziboshwe futhi zimiswe kuyo yonke imisebenzi ngesikhathi kusacwaningwa kubhekwa ukukhwabanisa lwazo. Kuyacaca ngokusobala Sihlalo ukuthi akuwona owase-North West kuphela ngoba u-Sefa yena uqobo ngoLwesithathu kuleliviki engikhuluma ngalo uvumile ukuthi bayakwazi lokho bazingezile izimali. Esakuthola ukuthi abantu azange bazinikezwe. Okusho ukuthi wonke lo Mnyango
kaSefa unobukhwabanisa futhi bayadinga ukuthi bajeziswe ngokusemthethweni futhi kumiswe ukuthi banikezwe izimali zabakhokhi bentela. Njengoba benze lokhu kumele kube khona ojeziswayo futhi kuyabonakala wonke uMnyango ka-Sefa uyathinteka. Ngakho siyacela ukuthi abasuswe nakuwo uMnyango Webhizinisi Elincane. Kume u-Seda okwamanje enze yonke imisebenzi. Njengoba thina siwu-EFF sithi uMnyango Webhizinisi Elincane mawuzenzele umsebenzi wawo ungathathi umsebenzi uwunike ama-NGO.

English:
Thank you very much.

 

Mr F JACOBS: House Chair, greetings to all the hon members on the platform. Yes, indeed, we were part of this report as the chairperson of the committee outlined. We have also received a report from the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa on remedial action. I think, as all the parties were involved, were saying that we do not want to play party politics, but we did find irregularities in the North West visit and we wanted accountability and transparency on the issues that were picked up.
The first issue that we picked up, Chairperson was the lending interest rates. Now, given that we are a development finance institute, the micro lenders, we asked that they are working under the Credit Regulatory Act No 34 of 2005 to ensure that they do not charge exorbitant interest rates to our people and that was ensured that the report came out to that effect. Sefa is negotiating with intermediaries to ensure that they comply with the National Credit Regulator, NCR. There is a credit policy now that will ensure that there will be no excessive profits being driven.

On the issue of the R7000 for the spaza shops, I think we were all collectively not happy that the money was not given, but the report now indicates that all those people were paid. As of 30 June, more than 6600 spaza shops lines received their grant to the value of R69 million that was dealt with. Another issue around the credit policy we have picked up was a concern about one intermediary, Ezemali Micro Loans, and the owners were using the Department of Home Affairs’ email address. We asked for consequence management around that. There are charges and cases being laid and to affected. With the case around Kings and Queens on the misappropriation of more than R30 million, a charge sheet has been laid. We are awaiting the
Ernest and Young Report and members of Sefa staff that were affected have been suspended.

I think from outside we are collectively agreeing that we do not want corruption, we do not want greed, but these are isolated incidents and we are asking the department to give us a report to ensure that governance is being improved. They also ensured that they would provide regular reports for us as the portfolio committee. So, with that, Chairperson we note the report and we accept the findings of this report and as the portfolio committee we have approved the report for the submission of the House and the ANC supports this report and seeks the recommendation for the House and approval of the report and all the remedial actions. Thank you, Chair.

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO SELECTED MILITARY BASES AND DMV HOUSING SITES IN BLOEMFONTEIN AREA FROM 23 – 25 NOVEMBER 2022

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Hon Chair, hon members, ladies and friends, comrades,
IsiXhosa:

... molweni,

English:
... good morning...

 

Afrikaans:
... goeie more...

 

English:

... and Salaam to you all. I thank you for your presence here this morning, and especially those of you who participated in the respective joint oversight visit to the nine provinces.
Your presence and participation in the joint oversight visit, as well as the proceedings of today is an indication that our parliamentary democracy is alive and well. The bigger challenge for us is to ensure that we find ways to address the challenges, legislative gaps and inefficiencies in the implementation of legislation. These oversight visits and the respective observations and recommendations are an important first step in ensuring that we fulfil our mandate as Parliament as well as witnessing first-hand how the respective spheres of government interface and work co-operatively to implement their respective mandates, programmes and projects.
Allow me therefore, Chairperson to thank the entities and stakeholders that participated in the oversight visit. All of you played a valuable role and have ensured that these oversight visits achieved its primary objectives, including comprehensive oversight on executive action in implementation of the legislation aimed at improving the living and working conditions of farm workers, farm dwellers and farmers. The government’s commitment towards improved living and working conditions in farming communities, including work done by different stakeholders in the agricultural sector and impact assessment of legislation affecting farm workers, make recommendations for legislative amendments.

These objectives are clear reflection of the historic challenges that this sector has faced. Whilst we have achieved much over the past three decades, these oversight visits clearly reflect that while significant milestones have been achieved and there has been a significant shift in the power relations in the sector, much remains to be done. As His Excellency President Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela reminded us as follows:

As long as there is one single human being suffering anywhere in the world, our struggle is far from over.
Our struggle, in terms of expanding South Africa’s agricultural potential, addressing security of tenure and conditions of employment on farms is far from over. We owe it to ourselves and posterity to ensure that we contribute in a positive way through effective implementation of the legislation, as well as holding those tasked with responsibility of implementation of policies, programmes and projects accountable for many of the deficiencies and contradictions that we encountered during these oversight visits.

Since 1994 we have introduced wide-ranging policies and legislative instruments in improving the living and working conditions on farms. Despite a plethora of legislative and policy formulations and interventions, farm dwellers, as part of the vulnerable people in South Africa continue to encounter several challenges, including tenure insecurity, threatened livelihoods and violation of their human and labour rights. It is vital that these challenges are adequately addressed when the recommendations of this oversight report are finalised. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Chair, the EFF calls for these investigations. The title of this report itself reveals a lot
about lack of political will, courage and vacillation by those in government who possess state power and yet do not know how to use it on behalf of the most vulnerable in society.
According to the 2017 census of agriculture, there were 40 000 commercial farming units in South Africa most of which are owned by white people.

Having concluded the joint oversight of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and that of Employment and Labour, we have come to understand quite clearly that most of those farms are not only places of agri-businesses. They are also spaces or places where some of the most vulnerable groups, communities or individuals in society live. Some of them, especially labour tenants, have lived there for generations.

Vulnerability of most farm workers, farm dwellers and labour tenants is demonstrated by prevalence of unlawful evictions from farms, constructive evictions through cutting of water supply, limiting the number of livestock households can keep an abuse of human rights and physical assaults, murder of farm dwellers and farm labour tenants, malicious damage to property on farms and assault of farmworkers or farm dwellers.
Available data about income inequality and poverty dynamics in
farming areas using the South African Multidimensional Poverty Index shows that there is a high level of poverty in farming areas when compared to urban areas and traditional areas, whether you look at health, education, living standards and economic activity.

Hon Chair, this brings me to the question about the failure of government to address challenges in farming areas and of farm workers, farm dwellers and labour tenants. Continuation of unlawful evictions and threats of evictions, as well as constructive evictions is a form of violence and brutality meted against farm dwellers and labour tenants. An example of this is a case of a widow outside Newcastle in an area called Mandeni, who, together with the entire family, were assaulted by a group of farm owners. Cases were opened but nothing came out of those cases.

Landlessness arising from failure to acquire land for labour tenants and farm dwellers makes these vulnerable people continue to be second class citizens without full tenure rights on their own land that their families occupied for generations before the arrival of the current white owners. Hon Chair, woman’s rights abuses, we have heard about in Mpumalanga, Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Free State are
worst forms of farm violence and brutality in a democratic society. These atrocities are commissioned and committed by a combination and collaboration between farmers, private security companies in connivance with police and magistrates. Human rights violations and poor living conditions is an assault on their dignity and rights of farm workers and communities. This has got to end, hon Chair.

We are making proposals on the amendment of Extension of Security of Tenure Act, No 62 of 1997. Amendments of section 8(2 and 5) and section 9(2 and 3). We further make proposals to strengthen section 8(2 and 3) of Extension of Security of Tenure Act, No 62 of 1997 in order to ensure that there are stronger tenure rights protection, especially for women and children who are survivors of occupiers and who have fallen victim of farm evictions.

Hon Chair for the misery to end, for these vulnerabilities, to end, for the suffering to end, farm workers, farm dwellers and farm labour tenants need courageous leadership and government. The EFF offers such leadership. We are happy that this investigation has been done and now presented before Parliament and its findings made public. However, we know that the ANC-led government which people told in Tshwane
Metropolitan Municipality in so many attempts and telling hon Mandela and his ANC delegates that...

IsiZulu:
...niyabesaba abelungu...

 

English:
... repeatedly. We know that ANC leaders lack courage and are indeed scared of whites, and they would rather pretend to be dead. We appreciate that these discussions have come and we call on our people that are here that 2024 will come and they have got EFF. Thanks, hon Chair. [Time expired.]

Afrikaans:
Me T BREEDT: Voorsitter, die gesamentlike oorsig oor die werks- en lewensomstandigehede op plase het baie van die huidige problem, wat die landbousektor vandag nog kwel, aan die groot klok gehang. Wat dit egter ook na vore gebring het
was die onvermoë van die ANC om te regeer, dat hul sedert 1994 nie beloftes nagekom het nie, en dat hul beleidsrigting die inwoners van Suid-Afrika gefaal het.

Die mosie wat gelei het tot die oorsigbesoeke en gevolglik hierdie verslag is reeds in 2020 deur hierdie Huis aanvaar.
Daar was egter geen haas of erns met hierdie mosie en die werk wat daaruit voortvloei nie. Die einddatum moes gevolglik die heeltyd aangeskuif word.

Daar was wel tientalle vergaderings waar die gesamentlike komitees bespreek het wat gaan prioriteit neem, hoe ons te werk moet gaan, watter departement watter plase gaan identifiseer en wat ondersoek moet word.

Dit moet egter genoem word dat die VF Plus en ander opposisie partye verskeie kere talle slaggate en leemtes in die beplanning uitgewys het. Dit is wel om gerieflikheidshalwe deur die regerende party geïgnoreer en is daar bloot voort geploeter met vooropgestelde idees en uitkomste.

Die proses is in ’n kiesafdelingsperiode ingedruk en die res van die proses moes afgejaag word. Die verslag is ook amper deurgedruk, sonder dat lede die geleentheid gehad het, om die 140-bladsy verslag te lees.

Wat verder kommerwekkend was, is die Departement van Arbeid se deurlopende onbetrokkenheid by die beplanning en identifisering van plase wat besoek moes word. Daar is ook nie een plaas deur hulle identifiseer, waarheen ons nie verdwaal
het nie. Dan maak die pleidooie van boere en werkers en die probleme wat identifiseer is sin.

Arbeidsaangeleenthede het bewys dat die Departement van Arbeid nie beheer het oor wat hul doen nie. Sekere boere het vir meer as twee jaar gepleit dat die departement hul met basiese wetgewing en vereistes moet help en was tot op datum nie besoek nie. Ander weer word onregverdig onder die vergrootglas gehou en word tot een keer ’n maand besoek. Daar is ook geweldige uitbuiting van plaaswerkers en ook boere deur arbeidsmakelaars.

Grondhervormingsprojekte is ook besoek. Deur die bank het die regering hierdie begunstigdes gefaal. Ons het in die Vrystaat by een projek gestop, waar die begunstigdes al vir meer as 10 jaar probeer om met die regering se hulp, addisionele grond te koop, maar geen hulp ontvang nie. By ander weer, is die begunstigdes net in kennis gestel dat iemand anders nou hul grond gaan bewerk.

Vele sosio-ekonomiese probleme is ook identifiseer. Een groot leemte het ontstaan, as gevolg van die sluiting van plaasskole. Leerders gaan nie gereeld skool toe nie. Die gebroke skoolvervoerinisiatief van die staat het kinders
gefaal. Dit maak dat leerders nie gereeld skool bywoon nie en dit dra dan by tot die geweldige hoë uitvalkoers op skole, maar ook tot ander sosio-ekonomiese kwale soos dwelmgebruik en tienerswangerskap.

Wat tydens hierdie oorsigbesoeke duidelik was, is dat, indien daar nie oor grense heen samewerking gaan geskied nie, gaan Suid-Afrika se landbousektor deur die bank armer wees. Ek dank u.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, my understanding is that one of the purposes of this oversight visits is to establish the working conditions of particularly, farm workers. Now, I hear some of my colleagues commenting and perhaps criticising what is actually happening on the farms, but I think we need to differentiate between farm owners and farm workers. Not every farm worker can become a farm owner. I say this, you know, with the number of farms that, in terms of our land restitution processes that were taken and given to others, and the response or the results out of that, whereby many of these farms have become redundant. This must also be taken into consideration.
Now, one of the things that we have identified as a problem - and I think we must be objective in our thinking - is that when it comes to accommodation on farms for farm workers, we know this is a business and that at some stage and time, farm workers will retire or they will be deceased. They have family members and quite often there are large families and farm owners cannot be expected to continue turning their farms into a residential unit.

So, as the NFP, we found a solution that when you employ a farmworker, we believe what should happen, together with the local municipalities and authority where they are, the farm owners must enter into an agreement. They must put them on a waiting list for a house and at the same time, contribute a small amount to the municipalities on a monthly basis. So, when they retire on retirement, they can move from the farm into their own homes built by the municipality, who provided the land, but also with contributions from the farm owner, which will make it a win-win situation.

If you fail to do that, it means that you will not be able to farm at some stage, because you will turn this entire thing into a residential project. We need to be mindful of that.
We must also be mindful that these farmworkers are human beings. Often, you find the electricity and water supplies have been disconnected, because farm owners need them off the farms and they are not willing to move, correctly so because they have spent their entire lives there. So, there has to be some beneficiation process, which must be initiated by government, with local authority and the farm owner. We believe this will go a long way in solving the problem.

The other thing we want to raise is the issue of ... Remember, many years ago, farm workers used to be paid with the dop system that created alcohol fetal syndrome, which means we have a massive alcohol problem in the country. And that is why we are calling for a fund to be created with contributions from farm owners and things, so that we can deal with the high levels of alcohol consumption in South Africa. These are just our recommendations. The National Freedom Party will support the report tabled here. Thank you very much.

Mr S W MDABE: Chairperson, ... [Inaudible.] ... present on the platform. I think it is important that we put in context ...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Hon Mdabe, can you try and switch off your video?
Mr S W MDABE: I will switch it off. It is important that we put into context why Parliament had to agree on why these two Portfolio Committees on Agriculture, Rural Development and Land Affairs and the Portfolio Committee on Employment and Labour had to conduct this oversight. It was on the living and working conditions of farming communities, on 4 November 2020.

The ANC strives for equity in access to power and resources, while working to realise farm workers’ full potential in the agricultural, forestry and fisheries sectors and the society at large. The ANC seeks to ensure farm workers’ increased and significant involvement in management, as well as in regional, local and national decision-making bodies and procedures, as per the values of the Freedom Charter.

They envisage to safeguard farm workers’ rights, support the development of their organisations, broaden the scope of extension work, to enhance their knowledge and skills, encourage farmers to employ better labour practices and attend to their needs for safe housing services and access to land for independent production.

Our oversight noted that there is still an inadequate institutional capacity to monitor and respond to threats of
evictions, and actual evictions could be among the principal factors that underline most illegal evictions. Institutional weaknesses can be observed in the collapse of practical intergovernmental co-ordination forums and in their responses to evictions.

We further noted the poor co-ordination and co-operation between law enforcement, other government entities and municipalities. Hence, farm dwellers find themselves living along the roadside, after evictions or spending over a year living in emergency shelters. Going to court without legal representation and magistrates’ court granting eviction orders without probation reports or not subjecting their orders to review by the Landscape Court has been a major challenge.

Hence, it is very important to monitor the relevant government entities, so that farm dwellers receive necessary assistance on time against illegal evictions and all other challenges that they are facing. The ANC supports the report. Thank you.

Debate concluded.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE AND INSTITUTIONS IN GAUTENG PROVINCE FROM 19 TO 22 APRIL 2022

Mr X S QAYISO: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, the collaborative efforts and dedication of the members of the committee members, who diligently performed this oversight tour to address urgent concerns regarding the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, operations, difficulties, and its crucial role in delivering security services for the nations are reflected in this report.

The primary purpose of the oversight visit was to allow the committee to engage with the South African National Defence Force leadership, organised labour, and other key stakeholders on various issues of interest affecting the SANDF and conduct physical inspections on SANDF facilities where it was considered necessary by the committee.

Given the recent continued baseline reduction on the budget allocation for the SANDF, the committee wanted to assess the capacity and ability of the SANDF to protect and defend the sovereignty of the Republic as envisioned in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
The oversight visit highlighted the concern about the continued reduction in Defence budget, which has the potential of possible implosion of the domestic defence, manufacturing capability, which would necessitate South Africa to be dependent with potential negative externalities to the sovereignty of the state.

We cannot gamble with our sovereignty in this manner. There is no country in the world that can underfund its military. We should not be taking this path. The budget cuts have had a negative impact on the department, such as delays or lack of training and retention of the existing military personnel, the lack of attraction and recruitment of highly skilled military personnel, the reduction in the morale and commitment among the existing military personnel and slow procurement of maintenance of tools of trade, including ammunition, military gear, vehicles, and planes. This could have dire consequences for the country.

We have further noted with concern violations of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, in relation to procurement in the SANDF. There is a need for institutionalised consequence management for the compliance with our laws. The SANDF is entrusted with a huge responsibility for protecting the
citizens of our country and securing the future of generations to come. The institution should not be part of the problem that we seek to eradicate.

Based on what we have observed as a committee on oversight, we made the following recommendations:

That the Department of Defence and the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure should expedite the transfer of maintenance responsibilities from Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to the SANDF in areas where there is existing capacity within the SANDF, in line with the committee’s recommendation that we made in 2018 after the oversight visit to the defence facilities in the Free State Province, that the Department of Public Works, Works and Infrastructure explore alternatives on constructing new sites to host government departments to avoid paying hefty amounts of lease contracts, as a starting point, the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure must conduct government land audits, both nationally and internationally for the construction of government owned buildings, that the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure should provide the list of all the incomplete projects and all government institutions who are defaulting on paying rent and for the
other services in government owned buildings, that the Department of Defence should embark on a public education programme to create awareness to the surrounding communities and that the committee should engage the Department of Water and Sanitation to encourage initiative of creating public awareness.

We, therefore, as a committee, submit this report and recommendations for consideration by the House. Thank you very much, House Chair.

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: House Chair, I’m affected by the failures of the ANC of loadshedding, House Chair, so I will request to keep my video closed as that. House Chair, as the EFF we support the committee report.

House Chair, last year the Committee on Appropriations conducted an oversight visit to the South African National Defence Force. It is concerning that this vital report is only now coming to the House for consideration. Given the significant issues in the Defence Department. This department and its entities are crucial for our nation’s sovereignty.
There is a concerning lack of political leadership, particularly given the Minister’s background.
Key issues we identified include:

The potential decline of domestic defence manufacturing, risking our nation’s sovereignty, if we become import dependent, delays in recruiting and filling crucial military roles insufficient training and retention of crucial military personnel, challenges in attracting and retaining skilled military staff, reduced morale among the military personnel, slow procurement, and upkeep of essential equipment, including ammunition and military gear.

Organised labour highlighted corruption, nepotism, and financial mismanagement within the South African National Defence Force. It was distressing to learn, for instance, that
46 generals earned over R1 million annually, contrasting with low wages of many South African National Defence Force employees.

During our visit to Detonics, Numerous, Electronics, Denel, we noted severe issues due to political interference. Shockingly, Denel’s organised labour reported on nonpayment of worker salaries resulting in decreased morale. The inability of these state-owned entities to attract and retain ... [Inaudible.]
... employees, leading to the loss of intellectual property to better paying competitors is deeply concerning.

Additionally, the committee raised concerns about the lack of female representation within the senior management of South African National Defence Force. While the South African National Defence Force acknowledges challenges in coordinating with the safety and security sector education and training.
For staff development, they are committed to ongoing discussions on this matter. At Waterkloof Airbase, the committee was briefed on damages from a recent fire and its implications. Nonfunctioning fuel arms due to the fire present significant risks.

We urge the South African National Defence Force to collaborate with the National Treasury, to secure funding for necessary repairs, safeguarding our nation’s reputation.

In conclusion, however, we accept the report. We urge Parliament to prioritized committee report’s recommendations, ensuring timely action, and avoiding delays of this report.
Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr Z MLENZANA: Good morning, House Chairperson, and greetings to the platform. Let me start by saying the ANC supports the adoption of this report. The South African National Defence Force is a critical component for the development of our country. We need to consistently strengthen its ability to respond to any eventuality, particularly in a globally volatile geopolitical environment.

To safeguard the national democratic society, we seek to ... [Interjection.]

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Hon Mlenzana, can you hold on a bit? The hon Peter Mey from the FF Plus, you are disrupting the sitting. Can you please mute your microphone, hon Mlenzana, proceed, please.

Mr Z MLENZANA: House Chairperson, I was still saying, we need to consistently strengthen the state’s ability to respond to any eventuality, particularly in a globally volatile geopolitical environment. To safeguard the national democratic society, we seek to build and defend the gains of our democracy.
The ANC took a decision at the dawn of democracy that the Defence budget should not go below 2% of the gross domestic product, GDP. But currently the Defence budget has decreased 0,7 ... [Inaudible.] ... the government must then increase the resources available for its SANDF, so that each and all of its services can operate optimally, and the Defence Force can effectively carry out its national and international tasks and
... [Inaudible.]

We welcome the constructive contribution that the SANDF seeks to make in support of small and medium enterprises, SMEs in ensuring food security through Project Koba-Tlala, that is eradicate hunger project. The project is aimed at decentralising procurement of goods and services to the lowest practical level in order to engage locally with communities and through its spending capacity, to provide a catalyst for the development of small, medium and micro sized enterprises and small scale and emerging farmers. This will come at a much cheaper cost for SANDF and will have the effect of ensuring sustainability of emerging farmers.

Lastly, or second lastly, the Department of Defence has in house capacity to undertake maintenance of all its infrastructure in a sufficient and cost-effective manner. The
work between the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and Defence Department must be intensified. The Defence Force should be seen to be working for the people of South Africa where all have limitations in responding to disasters and infrastructure challenges, including maintenance and ... [Inaudible.]. The SANDF should be reliable partner in attending to all these ... [Inaudible.].

And lastly, House Chairperson, we have further noted with concern the physical state of Detonics, Numerous, Electronics, Denel, and its failure to honour its salary obligations with employees. The entity must be assisted through financial and human resources to implement the turnaround strategy. The work of Denel and ... [Inaudible.] ... generals are actually interdependent both are at the heart of protecting the gains of our democracy and maintaining our sovereign. I thank you, House Chairperson. As I said before, we support the adoption of this report. Thank you.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Thank you very much. That concludes the debate. Hon members, may I suggest that every one of you who knows that they are going to speak, be in an area where the background does not make noise to an extent where it disturbs the sitting of Parliament.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO GAUTENG AND FREE STATE FROM 29 TO 31 MARCH 2023

Mr B M MANELI: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon House Chairperson, hon members, fellow South Africans, the mandate of this portfolio committee, like all parliamentarians dictated to by the Constitution to be that of legislating, conducting oversight over the executive and facilitate public participation. In exercising its oversight function, the committee oversees the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, which is DCDT, Government Communication and Information System, GCIS as well as the entities reporting
... [Inaudible.] ...

 

The committee conducted oversight in Gauteng and the Free State on the 29 to 31 March 2023, focusing on the two departments, the South African Post Office, Sapo, South African Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, MDDA and SITA. The Broadcasting Digital Migration, BDM programme was the main focus given the May 2023 proposed analogue switch off date which was reported to the committee. In this oversight, the committee held several engagements and site inspections, as detailed in the ... [Inaudible.] ... The engagement with
Department of Communications and Digital Technologies and its entities revealed challenges of funding and skills retention challenges in the FPB and ICASA, which the Ministry committed to work on with the entities.

The Post Office was in a dire state at headquarters and many of the branches closed due to financial challenges, even with the allocation of R2,4 billion bailout. However, it must be noted that our visit to the Post Office, which is the Halfway House Post Office, confirmed the need to see the Post Office as confirmed by the people who were on the queue for services, and these were people drawn from all races that you can think of. Indeed, the oversight also confirmed that the GCIS plays an important role in government communications. Even its staff complement, which is quite youthful, also confirmed that there is a need to equip that department working in order to incentivize the creativity that is brought by young people.

As we proceeded to ... [Inaudible.] ... SITA, the same could be said that indeed SITA showed a reflection of young engineers that have been brought on board, in particular like young engineers in the committee, ... [Inaudible.] ... and of course, those are people who are also working hard in ensuring that SITA develop its own voice as a way of responding to the
challenges of digitising the state, as well as ensuring the security of Parliament seem to think that is what the committee wants to ... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you. [Time expired.]

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): The next speaker is hon Bodlane.

Ms N W A MAZZONE: Chairperson Dyantyi, its hon Mazzone. Hon Bodlani is doing a public hearing, so I will be doing her report on her behalf.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please proceed, hon Mazzone. Hon Mazzone, we will come back to you. The EFF.

Mr S TAMBO: Thank you very much, House Chair. The EFF notes the Report on Oversight visit to Gauteng and Free State by the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, which revealed a critical lack of planning with regards to entities within the department. The oversight visit firstly revealed that indeed the SA Post Office is in a state of collapse with at the time of oversight R5,5 billion in terms of liabilities and the negative asset value of R6 billion. The revenue generating capacity of the SA Post Office is yet another cause
for concern as Sapo has had a consistent client revenue generation, meaning that it does not have the capacity to settle its mounting debt. A major concern we hold as the EFF is that Sapo 1,183 branches of operation, yet does not own 48% of those properties which was revealed in the oversight visit. As a result, Sapo owes R255 million to landlords for conducting a public service as a government entity, a disappointing revelation that actually shows that government is a tenant on its own land.

Current Post Office Amendment Bill, which is in the face of public hearings, will hopefully resolve the many crisis confronting the Post Office in its attempts to expand the mandate of the Post Office and ensure that government departments utilise the Post Office services and co-operate with informal traders in its operations. The EFF seeks to caution Sentech which the portfolio committee received complains about the high pricing of purchasing of frequency and there seemingly harsh approach which has led to the shutting down of community radio stations. Community radio stations are the backbone of communications in the public sector and information hubs for the poorest of our communities. A collapse, particularly ahead of the watershed 2024 national and provincial elections, is not only to the
compromise of communications, but serves as an undermining of South Africa’s democratic project.

Further to this, the EFF is concerned by the slow pace of the installation of set top boxes in our communities ahead of the massive and highly delayed digital migration. The briefing reports results on ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... which entails that South Africa runs the risk of utilising analogue technologies that are not appropriate for evolving global technology infrastructure is a cause for concern that must be addressed speedily to avoid the undermining of access to information to millions of South Africans. The EFF supports this report. Thank you, Chair.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Mazzone, please proceed. My apologies.

Ms N W A MAZZONE: My apologies to you Chairperson. Chairperson, as the sixth Parliament draws to a close, the Portfolio Committee on Communications and Digital Technologies took its first oversight visit by visiting Gauteng and the Free State. As we note in this report, it is important to point out that the committee of the fifth Parliament did not conduct any other oversight visits. This illustrates how the
past and recent years; this committee has relied on officials and a plethora of Ministers to perform what they call deaf top oversight.

The committee’s objective was to assess the implementation of the digital terrestrial television programmes of the department. In a parliamentary question asked by the DA, Minister Gungubele revealed that since the inception of this expensive ANC pet project, the department had spent almost R1,7 billion to date on the Broad Digital Migration. The R1,7 billion spent, yet the goal for the analogue switch-off
keeps changing. On our visit of the government issues set-top boxes indicated, they did not find value with their installation, and it comes with limited channels and poor content. As such, the communities prefer to rather pay for private satellite services.

The rush to meet the elusive International Telecommunication Union, ITU deadlines saw a roll-out of set-top boxes which was done without due diligence, resulting in runaway costs while enriching service providers. This department is well placed to be a springboard for the South African economy so we can compete globally. However, engagements with the department and its entities revealed worrying reports which poses a hindrance
to realising equitable access to ICT to all South Africans. Allow me to list but a few: an urgent need to review the ICASA funding models so that ICASA can continue to build sustainable collaboration efforts for the benefit of all South Africans.
The need for the department to develop adequate regulatory frameworks for the Film and Publication Board. The need for the State Information Technology Agency to improve ICT services to communicate with government departments.

As stated in the report and to the SA Post Office officials, Sapo spends a massive 17% of its budget on staff costs, yet ordinary South Africans do not get returns on this huge expenditure with Sapo branches closing daily. During the community visit to the Sapo offices, workers revealed that Sapo does not have cleaning services, putting its workers at risk. In fact, workers reported to the DA that they were asked to clean toilets in preparation for our very visit. The DA notes with great concern that Sapo owe over R5,4 billion to creditors and R3,2 billion to the Post Bank. I would like to remind us all that Sapo is a ticking time bomb and no amount of bailouts will restore this dead horse.

We will be failing in our duty as Members of Parliament if we do not address the report to the Department of Communications
and Digital Technologies and not address the elephant in the room, which is the Sassa grant payout debacle. This week was a new low for the government as thousands of beneficiaries were left stranded due to the failure by the Post Bank to pay social grants. If the Post Bank does not get its act in order and if the Post Office services does not get its act in order regarding the partial financial state that it finds itself in, the most vulnerable of society will remain the most vulnerable of society, and we as a committee would have failed in our duties.

But Chairperson, it is not fair to blame just members of the committee because we have tried over and over again to warn Minister Gungubele that this problem is coming. In the middle of October, the Post Office will be back in court to receive its final verdict regarding its liquidation status. If the liquidation status remains, then Sassa will be in complete disarray, given the fact that 40% of Sassa recipients count on the Post Office to get their social grants. Six hundred and seventy-five and counting post offices have closed within the last three months. This is an unacceptable situation that the committee finds the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies in. We will most certainly be calling for a most urgent investigation into both Sapo and the South African Post
Bank given the mass resignation of its board and the resignation of its board Chairperson only yesterday, with very little being said by the Minister and very little action being taken by the department. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M R MDAKANE: Thank you, Chairperson of the House. The ANC remains committed to building and growing an economy that serves all South Africans. To this end, we have focused all our efforts on ensuring that the digital economy supports economic inclusion by breaking down various due information.

Hon members, it is important to note that the oversight to the provinces mentioned was very good. It is important that we participate in the economy to leverage technology to create a more inclusive society wherein everyone is able to live a dignified life.

Our national Development plan vision, the information and communications technology, ICT, will be underpinning the development of a dynamic society, a knowledge economy that is more inclusive and prosperous. It is against this backdrop that we welcome the department’s commitment to connect a total of 40 000 sites as part of its broadband rollout programme.
Indeed, through a strong public-private partnership, this
target will be met and well executed. It is our observation that the department as a whole and its entities are working very hard to ensure that all South Africans have access to the digital economy.

Hon Chairperson, we must also acknowledge the opportunity this oversight visit provided us to understand the challenges faced by communities in the areas we visited. We had the opportunity to speak first-hand with the implementation agents and the union that represents them at the department and its entities and to engage with the communities and various organizations to get their views on the work of the department and the participatory element of the work that we do as a committee in this Parliament of the people of South Africa.

Hon members, we note and welcome the positive feedback that we received from the community radio stations. We also noted the challenges faced by these community radio stations in these provinces, and also throughout the country. However, we are encouraged by the department’s commitment that connectivity is key to developing an information society.

We are very happy that members of the community participated in their numbers and they were able to express their views
when they are interacting with members of Parliament now as members of the committee. We understand the challenges faced by these communities that we interacted with during this oversight visit. We are of the view that we will work together with the department to encourage it to ensure that they fulfil the commitment that they have made to these communities. It will continue connecting these communities and ensure that they are able to have access to the information that they need.

Not only in the clinics we visited but also in the libraries of these societies, we observed that many young people use these libraries as a place where they can access wifi to do their homework. They are able to communicate with each other as young people and provide each other with the information they need to access opportunities. The ANC supports the report as presented by the chairpersons of committees. Thank you.

The mini plenary rose at 11:12.

 

 

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