Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 09 May 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 9 May 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch: Plenary
The Council met at 14:02.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to the virtual and hybrid meetings and sitting, in particular Rules 21, 22, 23 of Rule 103 which provides as follows: That a hybrid sitting constitute a sitting of the National Council of Provinces, that delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces that for purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present. That delegates must switch on their videos
if they want to speak. That delegates should ensure that their microphones on their gadgets are muted and mics always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak. That all delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system. That delegates who are physical in the Chamber must use the floor microphones. That all delegates may participate in the discussion ... [Inaudible.] ... rule attached to the chartroom.
In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active. Permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives from the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.
So, permanent and special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation gadgets on their desks to access the interpretation facilities.
Hon delegates, in accordance with the Council Rule 2291, there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice. Allow me at this point to indicate as follows: That before we proceed to questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Ministers from the Economic Cluster, specifically the Minister in the Presidency responsible for Electricity, the Minister of Tourism, the Minister of Transport as well as the permanent delegates, MECs and all special delegates to this House. Welcome Ministers. Thank you very much.
Furthermore, I would like to remind delegates that in terms of Rule 229 of the Council Rules, the time for reply by the Ministers to a question if five minutes. So, hon Rayi the time for a reply by Ministers is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question is the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time to ask a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question. This is just to remind hon members, so that we are all are at the same level and understanding on the issue.
Hon members, the first question is Question 87. This question is on the severity and of frequency of load shedding. The question has been asked by the hon Rayi and it is directed to the Minister in the Presidency responsible for Electricity.
So, I will ask the hon Ramokgopa to please come forward and speak from the podium on my left. Hon Minister.
QUESTIONS
CLUSTER 4C – ECONOMICS (Electricity, Tourism and Transport)
Question 87:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon
Chairperson, good afternoon to members of this House. Thank you very much for the questions. I just need to state that all of our actions are within the framework of the Energy Action Plan as announced by the President in July of 2022. The Energy Action Plan has five outcomes. The first one is to ensure that we fix Eskom and improve the energy availability factor.
Essentially the efficiency of the units that are installed at Eskom. The second one is around accelerated efforts to galvanise the private sector investments in the space. This is reflected in our efforts to remove the ceiling with regard to embedded generation. The third one is around the accelerated
procurement of various energy sources outside thermal power. Here we are talking about the multiple bid windows as managed by the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy. The fourth one is the accelerated roll-out of rooftop solar to ensure that there is a behind the meter interventions. Over a period of time we can introduce a dispensation for feed-in-tariff which will relief pressure on the fiscus. The fifth intervention, is around the reforms and those reforms have to do with the dismembering of Eskom into three entities namely; generation, transmission and distribution.
For purposes of providing relief in relation to the winter period the following actions consistent with the Energy Action Plan will be rolled-out. The first one is around the exploitation of our open cycle gas turbines to provide immediate relief and off course it comes at great costs and that cost is about us burning the diesel at Grootgeluk and also Ankerlig. I think that the computation of the cost should be juxtaposed with what is the cost to the South African economy if we were not to make this intervention.
Then the third one is around an accelerated procurement of emergency power and in this instance we are foreseeing that
the existing technologies that makes it possible for us to connect to the grid as soon as possible present a pristine opportunity for us to be able to resolve load shedding.
The fourth one is around demand site management. Households on average consume about 16,1% of installed capacity at pick they will consume up to 35%. We know that Eskom had run this programme in 2010, it was able to yield about 3 000 megawatts of saving just to put into context is saving three stages of load shedding. So what we are seeking to do is to create a financing and reverted facility to make it possible for poor households to benefit from this exercise.
There is also the pursuance of opportunities to deliver energy from the neighboring countries where they have access capacity. We are convinced that there are opportunities on the Mozambique side. The Minister will be ceased with that responsibility. On the massive roll-out of the rooftop solar: Yes, like I said we are creating a dispensation to allow for poor households less affluent to access this facility in addition to the incentives that have been offered by the Minister of Finance, so that there is an equitable distribution of this renewable energy sources such as the
battery storage. We will be also working with the private sector entities in particular, your big developers so that we can be able to install the rooftop solar on their roofs because the present an immediate opportunity. Like I said we are also working on an initiative to ensure that there is a feeding in tariff.
The last on the red tape the point we made here is that is the concerted effort in government to ensure that we address the issues of the red tape and in fact we have the red carpet for investors. This include among others the introduction of the red tape Tsar in the Office of the President to ensure that there is an orchestrated and organised approach for us to be able to address all of the red tape across all of government, but also in addition to that there is just Operation Vulindlela that looks at addressing some of the constrains in the system on issues around the environmental impact assessment truncating that process and the issues around water used licenses. Those are receiving attention to help us to be able to address the energy situation in the country. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon Rayi, welcome back, your question.
Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, firstly I would like to take this opportunity to thank all hon members and the staff for their prayers. It is good to be back, God is good.
Hon MEMBERS: All the time!
Mr M I RAYI: Hon Minister, congratulations on your appointment as the Minister. My question is: The improvement of the availability factor is one of the important mechanism to assist in ending load shedding.
What processes are in place to increase the energy availability factor and what is the progress thus far?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon Member,
just to say the energy availability factor really talks to the improvement of the efficiency of the plants and the reliability. Just for the record, Eskom has about 14 coal powered stations plus one that is nuclear and a number of picking plants in the country. Coal contributes about 80% of
generation, so it is indispensable to the resolution of the energy crisis in the country. The current efficiency levels of these plants is sitting at 53% and the Eskom Board has approved the strategy that turns to improve the performance of this installed capacity in the current financial year to 60%. So if you add another seven percentage point. If you come to think about it one percentage point increase equates to close to about 450 megawatts. Just to give you a sense the entire municipality of Nelson Mandela Bay, I think consume about 520 megawatts so that we have the appreciation of the proportions and the scale that is involved there.
So if you use that computation, so a seven percentage point is an increase is equivalent to about 2 800 megawatts. It can in terms of the current parlance of how we understand the issues of the unmet demand, this amounts to about three megawatts to three stages of load shedding.
So, what are we doing to address it? The first one is to ensure that we are able to ensure the dispensation that has been created by the Minister of Finance that makes it possible for Eskom to be able to invest in the maintenance of the assents including the repurposing of these plants. So, that
R254 billion of fiscal relief will make it possible for us to invest in these power plants because the nature the kind of underperformance is primarily on the back of under-investment.
The second one is to ensure that we redesign the procurement dispensation in the context of the crisis. Some of the delays that we are experiencing in returning the units to operation once they have been removed what in technical terms we call outage sleeps. They account to close to 2 800 megawatts. About three stages of load shedding.
So, we are failing to meet the promise to return these units on time. That is on account of the fact that Eskom has got to go through the third party to be able to procure the parts.
What we want to we are introducing is that Eskom must go directly to the original equipment manufacturer. In that way we are able to truncate the process and return the units back into operation.
The third one is around improving the coal quality. There is over 1 000 megawatts that is locked as a result of the poor coal quality that is the calorific value of the coal that undermines the burning rate and therefore the efficiency and
also increases the emissions levels. We are designing a dispensation that will make it possible for Eskom to be able to crack in with quality coal so that we are able to unlock that 1 000 megawatts plus.
The fourth one is to address the issues of rampant corruption. There is a work stream number six at which is the National Energy Crisis that is just focused on the fight against corruption as when we encounter it we escalate it. We are impressed about the kind of progress that we are making.
The last one amongst the many is to ensure that we increase if you like, the incentives and we are able to retain the kind of skills that are require to bolster our efforts to improve the performance of these plants including drawing in private sector expertise in to work with management at Eskom at the plant level. Thanks, Chairperson.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Welcome to the NCOP hon Minister. It is your first time around and you have graced this House. We respect it. Minister, you have indicated that you have many plans. One of these plans is to combat load shedding in the short-term is to ramp up the use of open cycle gas turbines to fill the
supply shortfall. Projections are that such a strategy will utilize all of Eskom’s full proposed diesel budget for the financial year. Unfortunately you are a one man Ministry, with no budget currently, with a lack of staff.
Can you tell us where will Eskom get the money into fire up its open cycle gas turbines, OCGTs, for the rest of the financial year when its diesel budget gets to used up during the winter months? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon member
Boshoff for your warm words of welcome. I just want to say that we only have one plan and multiple interventions. I think it is an important point to make. The question around the open cycle gas turbines, you are absolutely correct. If you look at how is going to be financed in the 18% plus increased that the National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, has approved for Eskom that is R8 billion that is dedicated towards the purchase of diesel. In the R254 billion that is the fiscal relief that the Minister of Finance has extended to Eskom there is R22 billion that is directed towards the purchase of diesel, put together that is R30 million. You are absolutely correct at the rate at
which we are burning the diesel, we are going to exceed that money.
So the question to be asked is not whether the fiscus can afford it, but the question to be asked is: Whether the South African Economy can afford it?
Let me just journey you on the cost of load shedding on the South African economy. The SA Reserve Bank projects that just one stage of unmet demand translate into R300 billion lost in the South African Economy and a contraction of about 5% in the gross domestic product, GDP. We know that in 2022 we lost an upwards of 650 jobs as a result of load shedding and the projection is that at the current rate of load shedding we are on cause to lose about 850 000 plus jobs.
We know that farmers cannot produce. If you look at the total revenue of farmers in the country, 23% of that is generated from activities that requires the supply of quality and uninterrupted supply of electricity. If that is unmet, farmers have to make upfront capital cost in buying generators and that increases the operational costs. That is by no accident that the cos of food is going up, I think over 11%.
The people who are disproportionately affected as a result of food price inflation are the poor. If you look at the size of the basket in rand value term relative towards what they are earning is prohibiting. So, it is important that we are able to protect that. We had a discussion with the major retailers in the country those are organised under the umbrella of the consumer council. One of the big retailers in the country indicates that they had to spend upwards of R500 billion per anum just on procuring diesel. The operational costs they are going to pass that to the National Consumer Council soon.
So, what is the point I am making? We have a choice between saving that whatever additional billions required to run the open cycle gas turbines and save the South African economy or we choose not to spend those billions and allow the South African economy to collapse. In my view the maths is simple the computation with regards to the choices are simple our principal reoccupation is about saving the South African economy, especially the poor that are disproportionately affected by load shedding. The rich affluent middle class can buy invertors, solar, batteries, but the poor excluded. Small businesses in the townships, small scale farmers cannot afford
the cost of upfront capital cost requires to maintain these operations that are going to collapse.
We know that small businesses employ up to 60% of the active population labour market in the country. So, those are the choices that are facing us. You are absolutely correct hon member Boshoff that comes at the cost to the fiscus but there is a bigger cost to the South African economy. Our primary intention is to protect the South African Economy. Hopefully over time our efforts will yield the results. We should be able to get the load shedding out of the way. Thank you, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Apleni.
Mr M J MAGWALA: hon Chairperson, I will be taking the hon Apleni’s question today, hon Chairperson. Greetings to the House and to you hon Minister.
It is hon Magwala, Minister.
The Minister has previously stated that it would be impossible to end load shedding this year. Yet, when the EFF held a
shutdown calling for the end of load shedding, Eskom suddenly suspended load shedding citing an improvement in generation capacity.
Why is the Minister not able to do what it was done over the shutdown for the millions of the poor South Africans who would not be able to afford to keep the lights over the upcoming winter? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you, hon
member, Magwala for the question. Just to say that the resolution of the demand that far exceeds supply is a detailed engineering science. It has nothing to do with the multitude of people taking to the streets. It has everything to do first with the demand. As we know what gets to be referred to as a shutdown essentially people stay away from work has meant that and of course coincided with the long weekend. So it means our pick is not the same. The pick attenuates because we do not wake up at the same time in the morning and exploit, if you like the issues around appliances and thereby increasing demand. So, the pick comes down. If you look at the performance of the six units a week before that principally it said units were able to improve the energy availability
factor. If you come to think of it demands came down and also generation went up. Therefore there was sufficient supply in the grid. That is why we were able to avert a situation of load shedding. Remember that load shedding is a technical exercise that the system controller uses to protect the integrity of the grid so that so that it remains within 50 heads. You do not have a situation of undersupply of electricity. That is when demand exceeds generation what we call low frequency and we also protects it from high frequency when generation exceeds demand so what it does in an instance where demand exceed generation it imposes a condition that denies those who want to use electricity. The electricity they require so that they are able to stabilise the grid and in common parlance we refer to that as load shedding. So it is a science that the system operator applies. It has nothing to do with the action of people outside, what we are generating and what the demand is about.
However, the point that must be driven home and where I agree with you I think the sooner we are able to end load shedding the better. We would want to end load shedding yesterday, but if you look at what are some of these technical consideration. I told you the efforts we are making with regards to the
winter periods so that we do not have elevated levels of load shedding essentially undermining the continued increase of the severity of load shedding.
Over a passage of time we know the following: The first one is that the three units at Kusile are going to come back. These are units that had failed as a result of if you like the flu guess disulverisation component that there is a release of the significant amount of the slurry that set on the 10 meter chimney. It compromises structural integrity of the chimney.
We had to close those units.
The Minister of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, is giving us an exemption to have a special dispensation temporary measures for us to put those units back without necessarily meeting the emission requirements. What have we done? We have engaged all the big players who are able to construct the units at the quality that is required. I think that two major players in the country and contractors, those are manufactures and those are been engaged. They are working on a shift of a 24-hour and cycle and three shifts. So, the day only has 24 hours. They can do three shifts that is why we can only return the 2 100 megawatts of the three units in Kusile in December.
We know that on an accelerated path with regards to emergency procurement we have potential of getting another 2 000 plus megawatts. We know that on the demand side management, we can claw back about 2 500 to 4 000 megawatts. That is why we are confident that over a passage of time we should be able to get back the 6 000 megawatts deficits if we look at the summer conditions. As we ramp up these efforts we should be able to protect the economy against the pick demand come next winter of 2024. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, we all no load shedding this winter will be the worse than ever experienced. We also know that this will have devastating effects over ordinary households but especially the business sector. Companies such as Vodacom are forced to spend hundreds and millions on fuel on generators to keep their business in operation. Hon Minister I do realise you are tasked to focus on increasing generation capacity. However, while this is happening, you must still protect our business sector. So my question will be, besides all the promised plans to increase generation capacity: Are there any plans to subsidise or at list supply fuel at discounted rates to enable them to still
operate during load shedding and to do so profitably? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon De Bruyn
thank you very much for that question. I just think for the record I must state the following: Some of the efforts that we have taken was to engage with the energy intensive users and also engage with the major players in the South African economy and also players that are significant within the eco system of the energy generation and consumption in the country including organised business and also organised labour on the generation side.
I did have an engagement of the chief executive officers, CEOs, of all the major telcos in the country, Vodacom, MTN, Cell C, Rain and Telkom included in that conversation. The intension was to see how best we can ameliorate their condition relative to load shedding. They did indicate that as an aggregate sector they are spending close to about
R5 million per anum just to make sure that they protect their data centers towards their cellphone towers so that they reduce the rate of dropped calls. The point I am making is
that there is a laser focus approach to engage with the various players in the industry.
Just last week Thursday I was in Gqeberha. First I went to Buffalo City to meet with Mercedes Benz, one of the major OEMs in the country. The day after I went to meet with the VW and also to meet with Isuzu in the Nelson Mandela Bay. These entities together with Ford, Nissan and Toyota. We have met. I met them under the auspices and Hamsa now I am going to meet them at their fence because we want to find a technical solution on working with them on how we can protect the jobs. Remember that these Original Equipment Manufacturers, OEMs, contribute about 4,9% to the GDP. If you look at the entire value chain they employ up to 430 000 people in the country.
If you just go to Nelson Mandela Bay alone VW and Isuzu together with those manufacturing companies that they are associated with their value chain they consume between anything between 65% to 70% of energy in that area.
So, it is important that we have a laser focused approached so that we are able to safe jobs. We are doing a number of things including going to work with the telcos just finding alternative energy solutions including battery storage to
making it possible for them to have quality uninterrupted supply of energy outside the generation that is Eskom.
The second one is to look exactly at that proposal that we are making. Remember that the taxes that sits in the cost of fuel did not anticipate that people would be buying fuel to meet the failure of the state to deliver electricity. There is the Road Accident Fund. I mean these people are using this just to power if you like energy demand. We think that there is a justifiable cause and a compelling reason to look at that favorably. We are computing that to go to the National Treasury so that there is some degree of rebates. You cannot be charging Road Accident Fund the levies associated with the construction of the road infrastructure when in fact they are running generators. It increases the cost of operation. In some sectors they will pass that to the consumer and that will result in inflation. Absolutely correct hon Boshoff. We are working on that. We have met with all the major farmers, we have met with the private health providers in the country and of course we are computing the once in the state and see what the dispensation that can be created so that we get to address the situation. The taxes in the fuel I want to repeat, are meant for you and I when we use the road. There is a cost for
using the road. While these ones are just shoaling the economy. I think the state must rethink that. So, I am with them on this one. We rea putting together a case and making it tomorrow also in Cabinet. I thank you, Chairperson.
Question 81:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: The point to
be made here is that it is the President that determines the assignment or functions and responsibilities consistent with the relevant provisions in the Constitution. We know that the Minister of Public Enterprises is the primary shareholder representative in state-owned entities, SOEs, and in this instance it has to do with Eskom. He addresses, amongst the many, just working with the board as the accounting authority, just a broad strategy orientation of Eskom and the need for Eskom to align with government policy and its interest going into the future, so that there is a symmetry in what Eskom is doing and how we see development happening in this country. So essentially, he represents the interest of the shareholder.
The other significant player in this space is the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, Minister Mantashe. There the relationship with Eskom has to do with the fact that, firstly,
the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy is the primary custodian of the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, which is really an articulation of three things. Firstly, is the projected energy demand, and it articulates where we are going to find the sources to meet this energy demand. Then it computes the unit costs of these sources. Then it puts them into an aggregate and determines what we call the energy mix. We also know that what the IRP does is to ensure that we remain on track in relation to the decarbonisation agenda. If you look at its computation, it is that the share of renewables is projected to increase exponentially going into the future whilst the share of thermal power is going to be attenuating, essentially just reaffirming our position with regard to the nationally determined contribution and also the net zero parts. We are not deviating from that. So, that is what Minister Mantashe does.
So, when the President appointed the Minister of Electricity, the mandate was to do two things - to address the severity of load shedding and essentially to bring it down to lower stages of load shedding and then also the frequency. We know that in 2021 we had about 75 days of load shedding, in 2022 it grew
almost threefold to 2 002, and now at the rate at which we are going we are likely going to surpass the 202 days.
I told you much earlier what is the cost to the South African economy. So essentially, the focus is on the generation side and that’s why the Minister of Electricity has got a technical inclination, just an appreciation of what it takes in technical terms to ramp up the production at that level, to understand the value chain and apply a degree of science in how you resolve these problems. You don’t resolve them by hunch or emotion. There is a science that is involved and you accumulate it over a period of time. The Minister of Electricity is more that competent to do exactly that. Of course, he co-ordinates with these two other Ministers.
The point to be made here is that once the President makes his determination on the roles and responsibilities, that will become clearer. However, we are not folding our arms. We have already said these are the interventions that are required to provide some degree of relief going into winter and that is supported by science. I excavated what those features are on the demand side, management, the issues around how best do you improve the energy availability factor and the issues around
improving, if you like, the kind of skills that are required, the issues around supply chain. What are these big components that have a long lead time, so we need to plan for outages?
Outage planning must be improved so that we are able to obviate the situation of outage slips. Outage slips is essentially our failed promise to return the units at the time that we promise to return them.
As I stand before you today, there are 2 800 megawatts of outage slips. That is essentially three stages of load shedding. That is on account of the inability of the station managers to return the units at the time that they had promised.
The issues of overlaps will of course be avoided once the President makes that articulation. I am more than confident that the President will do that as soon as possible as he applies his mind, which is rightfully his constitutional obligation. We are hard at work to ensure that we are able to address this situation. We are co-ordinating our efforts.
Minister Mantashe, Minster Gordhan and I, and also to some extent Minister Godongwana for purposes of fiscal relief ... the kind of conditions that are attached to the fiscal relief
and those should allow us to address the energy situation. Thanks.
Mr D R RYDER: Minister, you will agree with me that three Ministers giving instructions to one entity is pretty much an untenable situation. The Minister of Public Enterprises once told us to join the dots. If I look at all of the entities under Public Enterprises and see the failure of each of them, when I join the dots it produces a big arrow pointing directly at Minister Gordhan. It’s clear as well that Minister Mantashe is reluctant to give you any authority in the area that he controls and his hold over the President is much stronger than yours. However, you sir, are the one who has been appointed as the Minister of Electricity, with the focus on solving the load shedding crisis, as you have told us.
Minister, will you advocate for Eskom to be shifted into your department or into the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, or do you not want Eskom now that it has been hollowed out by corruption and state capture? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Firstly, just
to indicate that I’m not a junior Minister. There’s nothing in
the Constitution that attaches hierarchy to Ministers. Secondly, my presence is not ornamental. I bring a significant amount of technical skills, in addition to my political prowess. I think that should be placed out there.
Secondly, I’m not aware of any hold that any Minister has on the President. The President is his own man. Of course ... the President of both the country and the governing party, and the President will, as and when he deems it fit, make those determinations. I am not the one to prescribe to the President on whether this or that entity should report to me. The President will make that determination as he sees fit. The President did extend an invitation to Minister Gordhan, Minister Mantashe and me ... under one roof so that we get to co-ordinate, if you like, what our interventions are, working together. I think our primary focus is to resolve the load shedding question. We understand that there is some degree of urgency. In fact, it’s an emergency situation. It’s an existential problem of economic proportions. So, I think it’s something that requires our collective attention. Like I said, we are transfixed on the resolution of this problem.
So, the President will make that determination as to who must be responsible for which function, but I did say that where we are at the level of co-ordination, I have been given scope to engage and work with Eskom on the technical side ... the revitalisation of these units that are underperforming. We have presented a plan that is thoroughly considered, that is cost sponsored by Eskom. We took it through the structures of the National Energy Crisis Committee, Necom, sponsored by Minister Gordhan, Minister Mantashe and myself, just to illustrate the degree and level of co-ordination at that level.
We will wait for the President to make that determination, but I think the country is a bit impatient. The country is justifiably aggrieved about load shedding and we are addressing that with the degree of urgency that is required.
Like I said, I think that we are dealing with an emergency situation that requires an extraordinary effort that is co- ordinated. The whole of government must make an effort and we are doing that, working with the three Ministers. At the right time, the President will make a determination with regard to the allocation of responsibilities. Thank you.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: House Chairperson ...
Sepedi:
... ke dumediie mohl Tona, ke be ke boe ke go leboge ...
English:
... hon Minister for your response to the question. Hon Minister, is there anything that is currently hampering the Minister in executing your responsibilities, and what is the level of support from other departments and entities? Thank you.
Sepedi:
TONA YA MOHLAGASE KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE: :Ke a leboga
mohl Mamaregane ka potiiio yeo le e botiiiitiego. Ke nyaka go le botia gore rena re le boetapele bja naga. Re le Ditona tie tharo – Tona ya Mohlagase, Tona ya Dikgwebo tia Setihaba le Tona ya Enetii - re iomiiana mmogo go kgonthiiiia gore re rarolle bothata bjoo bo re emego ka pele. Re a tseba ka Setlokwa ge ba apa ba re: “Tau tia hloka seboka di iitwa ke nare e hlotia.”
Moetapele wa rena, e lego Mopresidente Ramaphosa o kgonne go re hlalosetia boraro bja rena gore maikarabelo a rena e swanetie e be go kgonthiiiia gore re iomiiane mmogo go rarolla bothata bja kgaotio ya mohlagase bjoo bo amago gampe le go gatelela kgolo ya ekonomi ya naga ya gaborena. Ke ka moo re bonago bontii bja batho ba gaborena ba sa iome. Re bona dikgwebo ditoropong tie dinnyane le tie dikgolo di tswalelwa. E ra gore bontii bja batho ba gaborena - maloko a setihaba, ba bolawa ke tlala ka lebaka la seo re se bitiago “load shedding”
– ke ra yona kgaotio ya mohlagase. Re na re le baetapele re a kweiiia ka botlalo gore se ke sello sa batho kamoka. Re swanetie go tiea dikgato go rarolla bothata bjo. Ge bjale re tsena maregeng, re tlile go rarolla bothata bjo ka matsapa a mmalwanyana.
Lamathomo, re tlile go kgonthiiiia gore ntlo ye nngwe le ye nngwe yeo e nago le mohlagase re iomiiane le bona gore ba iie fase kelo ya bona ya tihomiio ya mohlagase gore nyako ya mohlagase e be fase gore ge re o fehla mohlagase woo, o kgone go thekga ekonomi ya rena.
Labobedi, re tlile go kgonthiiiia gore re kitimiie tieo re di bitiago “emergency procurement” re humane mohlagase ka nako ye
nnyane gore ekonomi ya gaborena e gole, le batho ba gaborena ba se ke ba ba le marega a ioro. Laboraro, re swanetie go kgonthiiiia gore re iomiiana le boetapele bja Eskom gore go fehlwa ga mohlagase ditiiing tia Eskom tie lesomenne go kgone go ioma ka botlalo ka tsela yeo di dirilwego ka gona. Re a tseba gore gonabjale ge ke bolela le lena, tihomiio ya tiona ke 53%. Re nyaka go e iia godimo e be 60% go bontiha gore re rarolotie bothata bjo.
English:
So, I want to say, hon Mamaregane, that we are working very closely as a close-knit collaborating co-ordinated ... transfixed on the resolution of this problem. So, the issue around friction or turf wars is something that exists in the public domain. It’s a construction of other players in the public domain. Minister Mantashe, Minister Gordhan and I are focused on the resolution of this matter.
Of course, we will get guidance from the President on how best we should ... these constitutional or legal responsibilities will be assigned. As the President applies his mind, we are continuing with this effort because there is a greater level of appreciation that the economy is hemorrhaging, we are
losing jobs, the gross domestic product, GDP, is contracted and our ability to deliver basic services in our quest to achieve universal access is going to be severely undermined by load shedding. And, anything that we envisage of a future South Africa gets to be throttled by our inability to provide electricity at the right quality and quantity, such that it is uninterrupted. So, we are transfixed on the resolution of that problem. Thanks Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, since taking office, being directly under the Presidency and in accordance with his defined role to solve the issues of load shedding and the accessibility to electricity in South Africa, would you say that currently you are technically working to minimise load shedding or to stop load shedding? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Yes, we are
working on that. I think the point to be made is that there is a leg in how you begin to see these efforts. I said at the inception of the question and reply session that I’m simply working within the parameters of the Energy Action Plan as unveiled by President Ramaphosa in July 2022. So, I’m not introducing a new plan. We are simply accelerating and adding
momentum, but also expanding on some of the implementation that is required so that we are able to see the results.
I made the point that, conservatively, in the country we have about eight million geysers, and if you come to think that households consume about 16% of installed capacity and at peak they could be consuming about 35% ... and about 35% of that peak consumption ... 30% of the 35% at peak consumption is largely your geysers. That is why we are accelerating the need for us to be able to install gadgets ... telemetrics to ensure that we put them on the geysers and we are able to remotely control the use of geysers. We know that even if there is a period of three to four hours of no electricity, that is fed into the geyser but the water still remains warm. So, like I said, we think that we can claw back anything between 2,5 ...
2 500 megawatts to 4 000 megawatts. However, by my own admission, we will not be able to reach all eight million geysers, if you like, in the next six months. It’s going to take us a bit of time to address that, but what we are going to do is to first focus on areas of concentrated consumption. We know that the greatest number of households in the country are located in Gauteng with the highest density. By that I mean that if you go to Gauteng, compared to other
jurisdictions in the country, you’ve got the highest presence of, if you like, density housing. So, once you get into this area of density housing, you are able to attack, if you like, a number of units and then you should be able to address that situation.
It’s my first time in the House and when I came to the House the Chief Whip said I must maintain the decorum of the House. I’ll not respond to that but I’m more than competent to obliterate any effort to undermine my standing here. I’ll not allow it and it won’t start today. Apologies for that, Chair.
... [Inaudible.] ... it’s to say that we are able to resolve that question. Gauteng is responsible for 10 000 megawatts of the installed capacity of 44 000 megawatts ... is concentrated in Gauteng. It gives us the highest return. If you look at the Pareto Principle, it ... that you make 20% effort for 80% return and that is why we are making those efforts going forward.
I know that the great levels of frustration and clamouring comes from the fact that they can now see that we are going to resolve load shedding. Remember that load shedding was going
to be the principle armour going into the election to undermine the governing party. We will be able to resolve it and when people are ... [Inaudible.] ... the area of disquiet then they begin to do that, as we forgive you for the interruption. So yes, we are going to make that effort going into the future. As I said, no amount of harassment will undermine our ability to resolve load shedding. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. You know, I have this gavel here. Order, hon members! Now, there’s no need for me to use it all the time. Hon Motsamai?
Sesotho:
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. A kore ke o nke Letona:
English:
In the light of crippling power cuts that the country has had to live with, which steps of intervention has the Minister taken in order to manage the conflict and power struggle which exists between yourself and the Minister of Energy? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: I responded
most comprehensively to the question earlier on. I said that the idea of the existence of an apparent conflict is a public narrative that has been constructed somewhere. I indicated what constitutes our duties and responsibilities.
Let me repeat myself. Firstly, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy is a mandate holder from a policy point of view. So, what he does is as the principal custodian. On the electricity side ... of course, the portfolio is bigger than electricity. It has to do with energy and minerals.
However, on the small component of electricity, Minister Mantashe is the principal custodian of the IRP. He will determine what is the mix of the energy generation. So, there’s battery storage, there’s photovoltaic, PV, there’s hydro, there’s nuclear and there’s thermal power in the form of coal-fired power stations. So, he makes those determinations, consistent with the IRP. As and when we look for new generation, we go to the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy to say it’s time now to release the next bid window. How he releases the bid window is the share of the power that will be generated by various technologies. He looks at what the IRP says and says that the following will come
from renewables, the following will come from wind, the following will come from nuclear, and so on and so forth. He runs that process, and they get to a stage where you have a preferred bidder status. Once you get to that preferred bidder status, that person or the developers will be working with the Minister of Electricity to ensure that we are producing the electrons to ensure that we are able to evacuate the electrons.
What is the point I am making? It is that the principal policy holder remains the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, and at an execution level with regard to sources of generation is the Minister of Electricity.
Minister Gordhan is the principal custodian of state interest in the various SOEs, what we call the shareholder representative, looking at issues of governance, issues of oversight, the overall strategy of Eskom, whether that is consistent with our aspiration of a developmental society and the ability for us to achieve universal access. Of course, there will be concurrence. Of course, the executive authority is the board and Minister Gordhan oversees that.
However, at a practical level, every day on the issue of generation, is the Minister of Electricity. The point you are making ... is what I acknowledged earlier on, which is that once the President makes that pronouncement it makes accountability easier so that when I come here those questions will be pointed directly at my domain of responsibility as it would have been determined by the President. Thanks Chair.
Question 88:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Chair, thank
you very much to hon Moshodi in her absence. Of course, I did make the point that if you move from one station to the other,
... [Inaudible.] ... makes that observation on what I call the diagnostic analysis, we were able to examine what are the attended factors as you move from one station to the other on the challenges of load shedding. I do say that they are variable from one station to the other.
However, I want to just surface what are the transversal issues and some of which I have stated there earlier on. So, the first one - like I have said that - is the underperformance of the various units. We have about 81 units in this 14 coal-fire powered stations. This has to do with the
multiplicity of reasons. The first one, I did say is about the lack of outage planning resulting in outage slips, our inability to retain the units back on service as we had promised. That has to do with the fact that when we take out the units in relation to plan capability loss factor or if your like plan maintenance, you find that the spares are not available. They are not ready in the workshop and therefore it takes an inordinate amount of time for us to return the units.
Nevertheless, we also know that there is a relationship with the speed with which head office releases funds for the various power stations to procure the parts so that they are available as and when they pull out the units. I made the point earlier on that that accounts for a significant proportion of load shedding, up to stage three of load shedding. The second one is to ensure that we begin to address the issues of coal quality especially in what we call the cost plus mines. What is a cost plus mine? These are mines that services power stations that are constructed at their mouths as they are essentially closer to source and generally the coal is delivered through a conveyor belt.
So, we don’t have the opportunities there of cartels undermining the quality of the coal. However, what we know is that with the cost plus mines Eskom has an obligation to invest in the expansion of those mines so that we get to mine new areas that give us good quality coal. If you go to the existing cost plus mine, we have over mined an area and as a result of that we are drawing out poor quality coal. That quality coal does a number of things. Firstly, the calorific value is down, if the calorific value is down it’s undermining the band rate, if the band rate is down it undermines the efficiency of the plant and, therefore, you are not able to realise the install capacity of the plant. So, there are losses that are associated with the unit being on load.
Then, of course, what it does damage the components especially our boiler tube resulting in boiler tube leaks. Therefore, you have to close the unit to fix the boiler tube leaks. So, there is a multiplicity of areas of failure as a result of poor coal. I did make the point if you improve the quality of coal you can unlock an additional 1 200 megawatts of additional energy, as a result of improving the efficiency. What are we doing to address that? It is to ensure that we are able to trucking coal in the interim from sources that give us the
coal of a calorific value that’s within the design parameters of that unit and we are able to exploit them to improve their efficiency and it also has implications on reduced emissions level.
On the procurement side, the first one I mentioned what are we doing about it. I did say we are removing the middleman because we are faced with the crisis as a country, we go straight to the original equipment manufacturer and they are the ones who will give us the equipments including the installation of such equipment. The third area that we are addressing going into the future is to address the presence of the cartels corruption there. Like I said, we have ... if you like, work stream number six that is saying;
The Minister of Electricity at the National Electricity Crisis Committees focused on just fighting crime, corruption and safety is led by reputable and highly decorated general in both the State Security Agency, SSA, and also the SA Police Service, SAPS. I think three months into their life we have brought down if you like the number of reported incidents from
60 to 25. At the time that I checked the last time I think there were about 14 arrests and we are beginning to see the
results. We will leave that to the experts we will focus on the issues around the technical aspects.
The other one is to ensure that we are able to draw from the private sector expertise. Nothing replaces experience. So, it is important that we are able to support the existing management with the necessary experience even from retired engineers and technical people. They will be able to transmit and transpose their experience and the effects could be seen in the improvement on the energy availability factor and also in helping the existing management to be able to meet their
... if you like ... their performance indicators. Thank you, Chair.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, hon Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and good afternoon, hon Minister. The starting point is to welcome you for making an appearance in the National Council of Provinces, NCOP. Indeed, the responses that you have given covers me sufficiently as you have correctly pointed out that in your response you were able to do that. However, there is one additional point that I just want to deposit to the Minister. The Minister would have the discretion as to whether to respond now or to respond later.
The issue of the capacity of the high voltage line that evacuate power from the independent power producers, IPPs, in the Northern Cape where it is needed has been identified as an area of concern. The second point relates to the lack of battery storage facility in the Northern Cape to be able to store this power that is generated throughout the day. It is an area that I suspect also could be a contributory factor to the issue of load shedding. Is the Minister in a position to also lobby his colleagues to ramp up the capacity of the high voltage line and also the battery storage facility in the Northern Cape so that we don’t have to be in this situation? I know that there is also been an issue around the politics of the skewed construction of the high voltage line from Upington to the Western Cape instead of beefing up the transmission line from Upington to Gauteng. Like as I have said, the Minister can respond, failing which we can get that in writing. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Well, thank
you very much. Just to say that if you were to look at the profile of a generation and demand in the country you will see that, of course, there are multiple sources. There is what we call base load essentially is thermal power, if you like,
fossil fuel and it is also a nuclear power. That is what gives you base load and gas. Then there is photovoltaic, PV, there is the storage technology such as battery and also pump stations. There is pump storage and then there is the photovoltaic.
So, if you look at the profile, photovoltaic gives you a start to generate the electrons from about 8:30 in the morning and it ends at about 4:30 in the afternoon. Essentially, the photovoltaic is absent at the period of the peak, it doesn’t help actually to resolve the issues of the peak demand. It is important that for you as you roll out the photovoltaic you must pay to some storage capacity and that storage capacity in technologies that we know is battery storage and also pump storage. Also, what do we know about battery storage? We know that their design life, of course, technology will continue to improve, their design life is about 20 years and you need
R50 million per megawatts to construct that battery storage.
What do we know about pump? Although pump takes you up to 8 years to construct, what pump does is a few things. The first one is that it gives you about ... is R30 million per megawatts. We also know that the life of the pump storage is
about 70 to 80 years. So, this is 20 years. Also, power storage performs another function in addition to the need for each to produce during a peak, it provides what we call water balance. At the period of what you called day zero here in Cape Town, the reason how we have been able to move water from areas of surplus to areas of deficit was because we were using pump storage.
Those are the things that are not articulated in the public domain. What is the point I am making? Battery storage. There is photovoltaics, PVs, for each to best approximate what we call the base load, it will have to be paired with battery. We know that everywhere in the world there is no single country in the world, it doesn’t exist where base load is on renewables. Renewables exist and thrive on the redundancy of thermal power and nuclear, that’s the first one. Now, if you look at the configuration of transmission in the country is at 70% over 70% of the load consumption is in the north. Also, over 88% of thermal power production is in the north and that is why we have concentration of grid in that area.
As I speak to you now the Western Cape, Eastern Cape and also the Northern Cape, there is no grid capacity there. There is a
lot of renewable power projects that are producing power but we cannot evacuate those because of the absence of grid capacity. Eskom tells you it takes them anything between 5 to
8 years to build that grid capacity. The computation that they have done to improve that grid capacity, you need R210 billion to do that. If you were to do an atlas of the radiation level, is concentrated largely ... good quality sun is in the Northern Cape. We have got real estate that is why it is the renewable energy complex and that must be matched with our ability to provide grid so that you reconfigure and reorientate grid capacity so that you move or evacuate electricity from the south coast to the north areas of consumption.
That is why our planning is very important. If you look at the last Bid Window, 3 000 megawatts of renewable energy from wind could not be allocated because there is no grid capacity. That is why part of our efforts is to ensure that we are able to build the grid capacity going into the future. Thanks you, Chair.
Mr M A P De BRUYN: Hon Minister, does the long term measures to turnaround the Eskom situation includes measures such as
ensuring staff competency and salaries linked to staff competency? With future appointments, will it be done based on merit, skills, knowledge and experience rather than race-based and political policies? Will the policy of less managers and more technicians be adopted to ensure the sustainable generation of electricity? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you very
much, hon De Bruyn. I did make the point earlier on that part of the transversal problems in Eskom is the hemorrhaging of skills. Your good and experienced engineers have left the field and part of the reason is that - as they share with us – there has not been any significant improvement in the incentive.
As an anecdote I was talking to one of my former classmates at the university, I did civil engineering and he did electrical engineering, he is one of the senior managers there. He gave me a personal account of what has been the improvement in relation to the incentives. If anything, they are poorer today. If you look at the location of many of these power stations they are in remote areas, small towns and the kind of quality of life that people desire can’t be found in those
areas. As a result of the removal of those incentives, your quality engineers and technicians have left that area. That is why we have got significant amount of failures.
A report that was commissioned by Minister Gordan in 1819 says the following amongst others on the issues of headcount and skills, it says that at the plant level is where you really need boots on the ground. These are old-fashioned power stations. If you leave out Kusile and Medupi, old power stations need an engineer to move from one component to the other just checking its performance. Of course, Kusile and Medupi are highly automated. That is why the ratio of megawatts to employees is significantly lower than in this power station. However, what did that report says hon De Bruyn amongst others is that the headcount at the station level has gone down by 35%. There are 2 000 vacancies of engineers there. You will never get that right.
It then also says the following that at Megawatts Park head office, the work is done on the ground. The head office headcount increase is 48%. So, you can see that the equilibrium is not exactly that which is desired for you to be able to build a plant. So, what is the point we are making?
Absolutely right, you need to go back to those engineers to come back and help us to correct this including other players in the private sector. They are likely going to be white because of the dispensation of the historical dispensation.
They must come back. There are also quality black engineers that are there.
Our primary focus is to resolve this problem but, of course, transformation is indispensable to the resolution of the South African social conflict. It is important that as we come out of this crisis, we have created a sufficient base of quality qualified experience black engineers, not necessarily the exclusion of the white engineers, that is the point I am making. I think we have a duty as a country to illustrate that South Africa belongs to all who live in it and, of course, at that level the proportion of engineers and technical people must be reflective of South African society. We will build that over period of time. I think it is an admission that we must make and work together to ensure that we get it right and have these young engineers to continue to do their work.
That is why the point I emphasise when I was with the managers was that we are not casting aspersions we want to work with
them and ensure that we get that experience to help us. Nothing would substitute the experience. I think there’s great acceptance in that black and white we should be able to work together to resolve this problem. Nevertheless, we have a duty to produce a pipeline of qualified black professionals to work also in those spaces so that we get the economy going. For me that’s a perfect illustration. I
It could be a template of how we get out of a crisis working together whilst achieving the transformation objective but admitting that, of course, there’s going to be a greater proportion of these people who will be helping us who are coming from a certain section of society because they have the experience and they have worked these plants. They know just by the sound of it, they will tell you that this component is about to fail. That is something that we want to work on and without undermining the transformation targets, but also we want to sustain the South African economy. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Minister, do the factors which the Ministers speak of also included the extreme levels of corruption and sabotage which are found at Eskom which are driven by senior ANC members of the executive whose main goal
is to destabilise Eskom and electricity supply in South Africa? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you very
much for that question. Obviously I am a novice, I don’t know how it works here. I have cut my teeth as a council. I am not about to cast aspersions I know there is no evidence before us that suggests that there are senior members of the executive from the governing party who are responsible for this and I think the member has a duty to the House and the country, most significantly, just to paint out on who these people are so that they can be brought to book, locked up and then we get the economy going.
Nevertheless, let me go to the material point that you are raising. Yes, indeed, I can confirm that when we went to Kusile and Medupi, for an example, we were advised by the managers there that there is premature failure of units. As they pull out those units trying to fix them they found that those were not original components in the unit. The only reason that they can confess to, the most rational and possible reason is that people use inferior quality compromised components just to line up their pockets when, in
fact, they claim that these are original equipment. That is why you are seeing regular failure of these units. Even at the young plants like Kusile and Medupi, if you come to appreciate, these units are designed to have a design life of about 50 to 60 years.
These units are hardly eight years old and they are failing at a rate that in some instances, far exceeds the much older units. Of course, you can put it down to corruption. As I speak to you I think there are a number of cases that are before the courts and let’s allow the courts to make that determination. The second part, what we are doing is that there is a need for us to undermine opportunities for corruption going into the future. I know that chairman Makwana had a competent board of Eskom, men and women who have distinguished themselves as true patriots in South Africa with high and exceptional academic qualifications and major experience. They are only there at Eskom just for one purpose, to help us to resolve the energy crisis and get the economy going.
I know that the Eskom board working with the Minister Gordan they are instituting actions to ensure that we are able to
address opportunities of corruption. Minister Gordan was sharing with us that already they are beginning to do lifestyle audit - just if you like - a correlation between what is your known-earning capacity and the kind of lifestyle. If those don’t match I think it raises signals - or if you like - it alerts on what needs to happen. The law enforcement agencies they are using such a kind of an instruments to ensure that we are able to undermine corruption.
However, we must also incentivise the good performers. I mean, there are a number of stations that have been lifted out of the doldrums from conditions of poor performance by men and women. I must say that they are critical mass of the people at Eskom, these are honest South Africans. They really want to ensure that we resolve this problem. They have nowhere to go, they don’t possess two passports, they will not go anywhere outside the country and they are invested in the success of this country black, white, Indian and Coloured. That is why it is important that we don’t paint everyone with the same brush but we are able to isolate those rotten elements they must be pursued relentlessly and they must be placed where they belong.
We must continue to provide the kind of incentives and support to help the men and women - the many of them - who are committed to the resolution of this problem. Yes, I agree and I think chairman Makwana, the existing chief executive officer, CEO, Calib, currently are working on that and, of course, supported by Minister Gordan. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M NHANHA: Thank you very much, Minister. Let me also join my colleagues in congratulating you on your appointment. I wish you good in your unenviable task ahead. Welcome to the National Council of Provinces. I must confess your frankness and knowledge of the subject matter at hand as ... [Inaudible.] ... Minister, I get your efforts to avoid the total grid collapse. However, after your road shows around the generation units in South Africa, can you comment based on your diagnostic analysis how close our country is to a total grid collapse, and if such a collapse is imminent what urgent steps are you taking to avoid such a catastrophe? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you very
much for that question because I think it accords me the opportunity to restate an important point that is in the interest of South Africa and her people including the industry
and big commerce. Let me say the following, we have a dispensation where in terms of the philosophy of how you run this plant there is what we call the reserve margin, it is
2 200 megawatts that is kept at every given time by the system operator there in Gauteng.
The intention of that 2 200 megawatts ... even now we are at stage 6 of load shedding, he could engage that 2 200 megawatts, we would go to stage 4 of load shedding, but he will never do it. He will never do it because the intention is to protect the grid. We know what are the cost associated with the total blackout. So, I want to say to you and the country and those that are watching that we are highly unlikely to have a grid collapse or a blackout because of that 2 200 reserve margin. That person will never take any instruction from a Minister of Electricity or from the Department of Public Enterprises, DPE, Minister. He or she will never take instruction even from the President of this country, he will never do it because the interest is to protect the grid.
However, like any organisation you plan for the worst case scenario. That is why also in that worst case scenario - and I said to you - it is highly unlikely to happen because of these
safeguards that we have put into place. We have two stations that will do a blackout start. That is a comfort that I want to bring to the country. What do we know, hon member? We know that at any given time, if you look at the trend level over the past year or so, Eskom can guarantee us about 26 000 megawatts.
If you look at summer conditions, that the 26 000 megawatts have to meet a peak demand of 32 000 megawatts. That is why the delta is 6 000 megawatts to close that delta we then run the open cycle gas turbine then you get lower stages of load shedding because the 26 and 32 the difference is 6 000 megawatts. If you want to use the more linear configuration you should restate stage 6 load shedding. That is why at summer conditions we are at lower stages. In terms of Eskom’s winter outlook, they are projecting that to be 34 000 megawatts. That is at peak demand and that unplanned probability loss factor, the worst case scenario would be about 18 000 megawatts.
Therefore, it means that the delta between 26 and 34 it’s about 8 000 megawatts and that is why we are running these open cycle gas turbines. The point that I made to hon Boshoff
is that, yes, it comes at great cost but if you don’t run them, we could be at higher stages of load shedding. If we are at stage 6 today it could be much higher stages of load shedding and we are running those open cycle gas turbines so that the stages of load shedding do not exceed stage 6. Of course, we desire to bring it to lower stages of load shedding.
Nevertheless, the long and short of my answer is that it is highly unlikely. I think in engineering terms you don’t exclude any possibility but I’m just telling you that it’s exceptionally highly unlikely that we have a grid collapse because of the safeguards that have been built in there. The fact that we retain a 2 200 reserve margin to ensure that the systems integrity is not compromised. Thank you, Chair.
Question 86:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you very
much, Chair and thanks to hon Mathevula for the question. Yes, I do acknowledge. The increase in demand that is more than the allocated transformer results in the overload of the transformer and it can cause transformer failure. This is very apparent in many of the locations where you have illegal
connections essentially burdening the transformer beyond what the capacity of the transformer is about. This can undermine the performance of the transformer and in many instances it results in the failure of the transformer.
We know that there has been significant underinvestment by municipalities in the main. I think underinvestment is on the redistribution side. Remember, Eskom generates. Of course we have created other players so Eskom is no more a monopoly, but it is a market player because there are renewable energy players in that field. You generate. This says that you create the high ways to transport electricity - that’s transmission - and then you create the off ramp - that is distribution. What the municipalities do is that they redistribute that which you have distributed off the ramps and they get it into individual households. But in some instances Eskom also does distribution into individual households. Really, the split between Eskom and municipalities is about 50-50.
What we know is that there has been significant underinvestment in the redistribution of infrastructure by municipalities because of their own objective conditions. The fact is that there’s been a deterioration of the South African
economy. Their ability to collect has been undermine and as a result the fiscal mix metrics of municipalities has been deteriorating and they have cut back on discretionally funding which essentially is infrastructure.
The other thing with regards to the responsibility for the repair and the proper maintenance of transformers, this responsibility like I said, sits with the distribution arm of Eskom and also with the municipalities. I did make the point that from the municipality side the deterioration of the fiscal metrix has made it very difficult for them to reinvest in these assets, and not just the transformers, but also the reticulation line. And you know that from Eskom part, part of the problem has to do with the fact that the balance sheet could not accommodate any investment in new capital requirements, but with the relieve of R254 billion that the National Treasury has provided, it has opened a window for Eskom to make additional investment.
On the generation side it is around maintenance and the repurposing of that plants and transmission including distribution. I hope that the issues around the failure of these transformers will get attention. Thanks.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.
English:
Minister, electricity is an important part in the everyday life of our people. However, our people in the rural parts of Limpopo often have to go days without electricity due to transformers’ failures caused by aging, overloading, improper maintenance schedules and insufficient security measures in substations in our areas. Which measures has the Minister taken to improve security measures in areas such as Mageva Village and Ward 24 in Giyani so as the decreasing transformers’ failure? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you very
much, hon Mathevula. I can relate to that question also to my ancestral home, Botlokwa Mokomene Ga-Ramokgopa. I do experience those as a personal anecdote. But I guess that it’s an experience across the length and breadth of the country especially in those rural municipalities. I think the issue is deeper. First, I agree with everything you are saying to say that this is a perennial failure of these infrastructure.
Remember, a lot of these municipalities in rural areas are
essentially poor. They are grant dependent and when they receive those grants they are not conditional grants. Of course they are grants that they can use, but the need is significantly higher than what the grant is about. I guess what municipalities do they turn to focus on infrastructure that is in the eyes of the people, that is, getting water reticulation and making sure that you are able to patch potholes, build new roads, they ensure that you are provided with fencing at the graveyard and so on and so forth, at the neglect of the distribution infrastructure.
We know that a lot of people who have been successful in the urban centres do return money to their rural areas. They are making significant improvements. You go to many of these villages and I am exposed to the ones in Limpopo. You can see the kind of investments that are made there. You can see that the proposition of the growth, of course the demand on electricity supply is not the one that can be matched by the ability of the municipality to grow the reticulation and the distribution infrastructure. They are overburdening or placing a lot of demand on existing infrastructure such as transformers and that results in the failure of these transformers. Because municipalities are not sitting on
unencumbered cash and their capital base is constraint, they are not able to make those investments at the speed that is desirable to ensure that we don’t deteriorate the quality of life of people in the rural areas. And that creates a disparity - an inequitable distribution of these resources. The democratic dividend is not equitably appreciated across the country. The rural poor essentially are excluded and they are at the periphery whilst the feeding frenzy in the urban areas because of their financial muscle, their ability to provide for communities. I am not subtracting from the fact that there are islands or seas of destitute even in those metropolitan centres. But it is more pronouncing the rural areas from an infrastructure provision point of view.
Hon Mathevula, the answer I want to give is that essentially, that is not the domain of the Minister of Electricity, but I would not be naïve and say we pull back. I think it is important that working with the municipalities we are able to design instruments that make it possible for us to protect the electricity infrastructure.
If you come to think of it, some of the proposals we are making, issues around demand side management and roof top
solar have got unintended consequences. What are those unintended consequences? It is diminishing the revenue base of municipalities. In some municipalities their revenue generation capacity from electricity can be up to 60%.
Generally, the first people to put up roof top solar is the paying people because they have money and they have the muscles. So the municipalities will be left with those ratepayers who are essentially indigent and therefore cannot pay for their services and the expectation is that we must provide them with free basic services whilst we have diminished the ability to generate new revenue. That’s why when we make this intervention it has to be an honest conversation that is required with the National Treasury. I know that they are up to it. Tomorrow we are meeting the national executive committee of, NEC, of the SA Local Government Association, Salga. How can you create a dispensation - as we resolve the immediate crisis of electricity - of a bigger problem of collapsing all municipalities? They are unable to fix such infrastructure. I take the points you are making and they will receive considerations.
Mr M NHANHA: Thanks once again, Minister. Minister, in your response you mentioned sufficient underinvestment by municipalities, and I get that. I am sure you will agree with me that rural communities are the hardest hit by load shedding, load reduction and protracted. Our take is due to lack of maintenance. Will you, in your capacity as the Minister of Electricity, advocate on behalf of Eskom for some budgets to be ring-fenced so as to priorities maintenance in rural areas? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you,
Chair. I fully agree with you. There is a disproportionate allocation of resources. In my previous life as head of investment and infrastructure, we did a computation of where the investment is going in the country. We took the total amount of investments that have been made since 1994. The year 1994 is key because it marks the victory of the democratic project over a system that was universally categorised as a crime against humanity. All policy choices beyond 1994 are choices of a democratic government. We took those investments and superimpose them on the South African map. Guess what! A concentration of those investments are in three areas. They are in the metros of the Gauteng province - Tshwane,
Johannesburg and Ekurhuleni. In KwaZulu-Natal they are in EThekwini. In the Western Cape they are in Cape Town. These five municipalities account to over 67% of all the total investments made in this country. The Eastern Cape, Northern Cape, Mpumalanga, Limpopo and the Free State put together don’t even come closer to what has been invested in Gauteng.
So, what is the point I am making? This is an inequitable distribution of the democratic dividends. That’s why you have the movement of people coming out of the rural areas searching for economic opportunities. These are economic migrants. They are all over the place and that’s why there is exponential growth of informality. You go to the townships here in Cape Town, you go to Tshwane and all over there is a concentration of the rural workers who are coming into these places seeking for opportunities.
One of the issues that we are proposing - underline the word proposing and we hope that we will prevail - is that as and when you roll out the solar photovoltaics, PV, I did say that your opportunities are concentrated in areas of consumption, don’t introduce measures that are going to exacerbate the inequitable distribution of this intervention and create a
situation where renewables are for the rich and the urban areas. That’s why we are advocating that we want to put together a financing facility that will make it possible for rural households to access this opportunity because they are already covered through a grant for the indigent and they are not connected to the grid and you must give them a solution behind the meter to ensure that they enjoy the dividends of a democratic South Africa.
As it is communities where I come from, my rural village, there is no uninterrupted supply of water at a stand level. They don’t have that appreciation. They still push wheelbarrows to go and fetch water. I think it is important that we address that as hon Mathevula was making a point about the experiences in the rural areas.
We want to use the instrument of the crisis in part to address these inequities. Because they are going to be see-through of demands with regard to PV. You can’t concentrate all assemble and manufacturing in your major metropolitan centres. You can locate it also in the rural areas so that it is a point of attraction. It’s a magnetic field of employment so that you are able to ensure that you are creating employment closer to
source of that people who are looking for employment. We are looking to re-engineer the crisis. We are seeing the opportunity in the crisis. But of course I am not trivialising the current situation. As I speak to you people are in the dark, as I speak to you people don’t have employment and as I speak to you people don’t know where to get their next meal as a result of load shedding. The speed with which we address this is important while simultaneously addressing those issues. Thanks, Chair.
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and thank you to the Minister. The Minister has responded to the follow- up question I wanted to ask. I just want to emphasise the issue that he is raising with regard to the issue of investment. We have just met the Minister of the DTIC. Also, last week we met with the Department of Transport. We raised similar issues of marginalisation and the concertation of economic development in three areas. I really appreciate the fact that he is also raising the same issue. Thank you so much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: I am sure the Minister will note the point.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I would like to know if government has set targets on the turnaround time for the maintenance and repair of transformers in rural areas, and what measures are put in place for those areas that have been without electricity for more than 24 hours? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you,
Chair. Thank you very much for the question. It is the point I made earlier on when I was responding to hon Mathevula. The responsibility resides with Eskom as Eskom reticulate to the end consumer and it also sits with municipalities. I did indicate what the underlying problems are. Essentially, the problems are your structural problems as a result of a diminishing revenue base and therefore their inability for capital outlay, and what that does is that the causalities are people in the rural areas.
It is important, like in the point I was making earlier on, that in the design of this solution, once you are resolving load shedding you must also resolve what I call energy famine. In my previous visit I went to the Vhembe District
Municipality where we were doing an aggregate of what their capital requirements are because we were designing an infrastructure - a requirement for the country. We want to just trying to get what is the pipeline of an infrastructure project. In the rural areas we were moving from one district to the other. We went to the head offices of the Vhembe District Municipality. I had a casual conversation with the security gourd because we were early. I talked to him and said, you know this load shedding is just frustrating us. He said, oh, you are lucky. I said to him, we are now at Stage 4 load shedding. He asked what is Stage 4 load shedding? I tried to explain in simple terms that essentially it is the number of hours that we don’t have electricity in a day. He said, you are lucky as at least you have something. We have never had electricity. So, there are many communities in the country that can’t relate to these things called load shedding. You are load shed because you can at some point have electricity. They have never experienced this.
The point we are making is that in the course of resolving the unmet demand you must ensure that those who have never had any electricity connected to the grid must have that electricity. We do accept that the roll-out of that infrastructure is
expensive. If you go to the rural areas, especially the areas of KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape, the topography is prohibiting. At least in other areas of the country like the North West they are sparsely distributed. You must connect to that house and the line is longer. It could be 500m, and another 300m just one household. You can see it is expensive. But if you are able you make interventions behind the meter because they don’t have the meter. All I am saying are the interventions that don’t require them to connect to the grid and we think that it is at solar at the basic minimum. Provide that opportunity. Of course overtime you can build inverters. But they don’t have the money. You can introduce any set of incentives like what the Minister has. And to his credit he is really attempting to incentivise. But that incentives presupposes that people either have encumbered cash or their risk profile is such that they can raise the money from the commercial banks, finance the capital cost and retrieve the incentive later. Very few people in the rural areas are sitting with R50 000 that is idling. Just for PV and therefore those incentives are not incentives to them because they don’t have an opportunity to access that incentive because they don’t have the means. All we are saying is that design a facility that will make it possible even for the rural areas
to access that. In the course of that you also create jobs in those areas because you need installers that are credited. We will train them. They will climb from one roof to the other installing and you are reviving a new economy and they need to maintain it over a period of time. That’s the point I was making about opportunity in the crisis and I am not downplaying that fact. As I speak to you people are going hungry as a result of load shedding. Thanks, Chair.
Question 85:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon Chair, I
made a point earlier on when I was asked about some of the key issues with regards to the underperformance of Eskom. I made a point about corruption. Let me put this in the context of how this finds its way in the public domain. I was asked a question when I was at Kusile Power Station. The question was, what caused these three, unit 1, 2 and 3 to fail? They only reason that - and they said, is that corruption? I said no.
The unit failed because as the requirement to reduce the emission levels of power stations and because Kusile and Medupi Power Stations are new stations, they have placed an onerous requirement for them to reduce the emission levels.
The only technical solution that is known in the world that helps us reduce the sulphur contents in the emissions is the component called the Flue-gas desulfurization, FGD. As the emissions go the exhaust they mix with the flue-gas desulfurization unit. What happens in there is the chemical process. It releases through the chimney the emissions that are free of sulphur into the air and therefore you have reduced the sulphur content. What the operators did not know was that the chemical process in the component of the flue-gas desulfurization was not performing at optimal level. Instead of releasing small particulates, it was releasing slurry and the technology of that system could not alert them that in fact you are not releasing small particulates, you are having slurry and the slurry got to be built on the walls of the chimney which is about 210 metres high. Over time, the accumulation of that slurry was like 2000 tons. Two million kilograms of slurry sat on the chimney and it undermines the structural integrity of the chimney. As a result of that they had to close those three units because the chimney was about to collapse. As you close those units, you are taking out
2 100 megawatts. You are taking over two stages of load shedding.
I said to the journalists, that is not corruption. It is an engineering process that is happening there. Then, the headline, “Ramokgopa denies that there is corruption.” It is science. At least the journalist could have been decent and said, I do not understand the merits of this science. Please explain it in Xitsonga. Then I would have explained it in my language or Afrikaans and then there’s a headline.
Then you go to Thuthuka Power Station, where corruption is rampant and I made a point that in this power station corruption has resulted in the following. When you make that statement, it does not make headlines. What makes headlines is that statement that you make there, two days ago. So, the point I am making is that we are working on the basis of evidence. You cannot say when I am going to make sense of the problem, prescribe to me that when you go to this power station, you must make these findings. There is no science there. I mean, you are just pre-empting. I do not think that it works that way. You are going to miss the point in resolving the question. It is a technical problem, let us resolve the technical problem. I did say in the beginning you can show that during construction that there was corruption and it is getting to be addressed through those channels. And
then, the question says, can you confirm. No, it is not true that there is corruption. I have just explained. Thank you, very much Chair.
Mr M NHANHA: Well, hon Chair, Minister, let me welcome your position that you actually do realise that corruption is rampant at Eskom, hence work stream number 6. In your response to Question 88, you mentioned multiple failures and you also included corruption. On that one, I and you are squared because I was really taken aback that in the pre-state capture era, the national utility was the pride of our nation with a healthy balance sheet. We sold access energy to neighbouring countries in the SADC Region and we had lights at our homes.
We all know what is contained in the Zondo Commission Report and the amount of money we lost to the Mackenzie’s Trillian of this world. Now that you have made an admission that there is corruption at Eskom and you were quite dismissive when somebody mentioned two members of the Cabinet that are implicated in cartels that are looting Eskom, are you in a position to share with this House who is supplying fuel to Eskom to run the Open Cycle Gas Turbine. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Thank you,
very much for that question. What we know as fact is that the so-called report implicated two senior Cabinet members in corruption was not substantiated. What we also know is that, it involves the apartheid era agent to try and construct a narrative that says there are acts of corruption. So, it cannot be substantiated. I am just saying that we all have a duty including the hon member to report this to the police. I did say this before. Those that are found with their fingers in the cookie jar must be arrested, irrespective of their positions.
So, let us say – I will get to that, let us not just rely on an apartheid era agency who were trying to construct a narrow position. Having said that, you and I are squared up, as you say. I am just saying there is a point we have been making consistently that in fact, there are acts of corruption. These are undermining our ability to provide electricity in this country. I can confirm to you that on our engagements with the senior management of Eskom, the state entity that is providing fuel at Gariep, one of our picking plants and also the majors, if you like, is BP and I think it is five of these majors who
are providing at Ankerlig. That is the information that has been given to us. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Yes, Chair, I am hon Apleni today. Thank you, Minister for answering that question and confirming that greed and corruption stands at the centre of Eskom collapse. You know this to be true, the ANC-led government has just voted against the establishment of the committee to investigate corruption and crime cartels operating thus far. The Minster and its President have always repeatedly failed to bring any meaningful solution to the electricity crisis. How will the Minister resolve of any challenges in Eskom if he cannot recognise corruption practises which are inherent in this situation? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Well, just to
make a point, that yesterday I was listening to the account of the Head of the SIU, Lieutenant General Godfrey Lebeya, making the point that the former CEO of Eskom contrary to his claim, only reported these acts of corruption the day before he appeared at Scopa. So, I do not know if you are minding the information. When the principal advocate and sponsor of this
idea only gave it to the attention of the SIU a day before. I am talking about the account of General Lebeya.
Off course, you are making a point, hon member that some of this corruption is inherited. I guess you heard what you just said, it is inherited and is historical. I really do not want to downplay the point you are making. I absolutely agree with you that it has undermined our ability to provide the quality consistent electricity. The fact that we spent 10s of billions of rand in Kusile Power Station. As I speak to you today, Kusile Power Station is not yet completed and this is meant to give us 4 800 megawatts. I did say that there were issues with regards to construction that have undermined the performance of Medupi Power Station.
As they take away these units, they find out that there is premature failure that they compromised quality of material components. That take out 800 megawatts. Just to put it in context, it is like four units in Hendrina Power Station, you know the old power station. Each unit was producing about 200 megawatts but there in Kusile Power Station, just one unit, produced 800 megawatts just shying off one stage of load shedding. So, I agree with you, it has undermined our ability
to address this and that is why it is important that we are able to address it.
I think that the point ought to be made is that we have a collective duty in instances where we are able to uncover areas of corruption. That as we get to make point in the House, we do register them with the competent law enforcement agencies. I think that is going to help our agencies to be able to fight corruption from wherever is to be found. I think it is important that we do not have eyes and ears, eyes rather, we must just make it in the interest of the country. I know that when the ANC voted against that their reasons were advanced. But, that does not replace our collective responsibility to ensure that we are able to report acts of corruption to competent bodies that have got the necessary legislative mandate and the powers to address that. That is why every time I go to the power stations and issues of corruption got out to me. All I do is to escalate them to work stream number 6. I have accepted that because I have not studied criminal law. I have no clue of what that is but if something is brought to my attention, I am not going to downplay it. All I have to do is to escalate it and making it known to the people who brought it to my attention that I have
brought it to this body or this person. I will, from time to time, in my capacity as someone who worked very closely with Nicomp, chaired by the President, prepare a report to the President, as I lead that function, gets feedback from work stream number 6.
I think we must not just talk about fighting corruption. We must be seen fighting corruption and in this way it is going to undermine its occurrence across all of society. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M A P DE BRYN: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister has covered my question with the responses and I think we are all in agreement that corruption is one of the main issues at this stage. I think the biggest question still is, when will we see those individuals guilty of corruption behind bars? We need to make an example of those corrupt individuals. When can we expect this to happen?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon De Bryn, I
think I am in your corner there. I think taking action and people going to jail or the necessary sanction, is going to deter, going into the future. I am sure you know that there
was one of the managers at Thuthuka, on diesel theft or something and was found guilty and there was necessary sanction. But I think the point you are making is that in this pond there are bigger fish. Like I said earlier on, I do not think that I have the competency and mandate to do that. The point I am making to the House, is that as and when these things are brought to my attention, I escalate them. I think there’s one or two that were brought to my attention when we were at Thuthuka.
We also go back to the general managers and tell them that these are some of the actions that have been taken, these are the people at the law enforcement agency that are attending to this matter, so that we do not create an impression that it gets reported on and we are idling about the gravity of the situation. So, hon De Bryn I fully agree with you, the sooner we are able to set the example the better for our quest to undermine corruption and its delirious effect on Eskom in this instance. On prosecuting, it is a primary mandate on generation. Thank you Chair.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chair, let me thank the Minister for the comprehensive response. Indeed you have indicated in various
spectrum that corruption wherever it rears its head it must be confronted and those that are responsible must face a full might of the law. There is obviously an important work to be done in dealing with the crisis electricity. The question that I want to ask hon Minister, particularly in addition to the fact that you have committed yourself that as you do your work, once corruption rears its head, you will try to refer it to the relevant authorities. Now, the question I want to ask is that, these unfortunate incidents are they isolated or is it a general norm. The reason why I am asking this question is the fact that there are capable men and women in this area and field that are committed to ensure that indeed electricity is restored. Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon
Chairperson, I fully agree with the hon member to what he said. The first part is to the men and women who are very diligent, patriotic South African professionals who are jealously guarding their reputation in profession but also intending on growing the economy and protecting it by ensuring that there is a consistent supply and provision of uninterrupted quality electricity in the country. Just to give them the assurance that we are behind them and the
significance protection in instances where they get into situation or position where they had to share very compromising information about some of their colleagues for their alleged acts of corruption. I think we need to give them that assurance.
Yes, you are right, the manifestation of corruption, like I said, takes various forms from one station to the other. In other stations you can link to the period of construction and that has got a legacy effect on the performance of the plant. In some instances, it is really concentrated on the procurement environment of parts and major components. In some instances, it is issues around the trucks of coal in that it gets to be compromised somewhere between the source and where it is supposed to be delivered. Eskom is doing a bit there by employing some degree of technology to make sure that we are able to track and trace the coal from the source as it arrives.
Basically, you can imagine those of you who have gone to the coal power station, when it is transported by road. You can see many rows of trucks into the power plant. Humanly, it is impossible for you to examine each and every truck load and
that is why Eskom is resorting to some degree of intelligence to address that situation. So, the point I am making is that the manifestations of corruption takes different forms as you move from one area to another.
I do agree, off course just the strengthening of government framework at the station level, the issues of lived values, at levels of production, addressing the issues of incentives to ensure that you deny any opportunity for people to think otherwise of supplementing their income and undermining and aggressively addressing, if you like the cartels that work or exist there whose solely intention is to line their pockets at the expense of the country, especially the poor. So, I am saying that it is a concerted effort and as you made the point, I think work stream number 6 is hard at work.
When I come back here I will give you the latest updates at that time on the work that is being done there so that I may be able to give assurance to both the House and the country that everything possible is being done to address the scourge of corruption. Thank you, Chair.
Question 89:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon Dangor,
thank you for that important question because I think in the public domain the stance that we have taken gets to be misinterpreted as a deviation from our commitment to the achievement of the nationally determined contributions. Those are voluntary national targets that we set ourselves to ensure that we decarbonise the economy and move to a fossil-free economy.
We are committed also to achieving the next zero path, of course, being a net zero economy by 2050. And there are intermediate targets around 2030 of what needs to be achieved. So, we are committed to all of those and we have set timelines for that.
Having visited the power stations, just factoring the reality of the South African economy, I did at the onset of this session try and articulate what are the economic implications of unmet energy demand on the country and I did indicate by surfacing a number of indices that is devastating to the South African economy.
This proportionate impact on the poor has got the potential, if not the sufficiently and speedily address, to collapse the economy of the country. And there are multiple sources that have made studies and modelling, and are able to indicate what those numbers are. So, you don’t have to believe me, there are multiple sources that have made the point and you can see the outlook of growth of the South African economy, at least on account of the SA Reserve Bank, SARB, we’ll grow by 0,2%.
What do we know? What we know, hon Chair, is that between 2018 and 2020 we have decommissioned units that were giving us, collectively, 2 900mw (megawatts). So, we have removed, from the grid, units that have a collective megawatt output of three stages of loadshedding. And we know that in terms of this agenda of decarbonisation, between now, 2023, and 2027, the intention is to remove another 5 200mw. So, it means that between 2018 and 2027 we would have removed 8 200mw.
Essentially, an additional eight stages of loadshedding.
So, the next question we answer is: Where and how are you going to replace that which you are removing from the grid? And we know if you look at the renewable energy agenda, bid window 1, 2011, until bid window 4, 2014, the evidence is the
following: That from request for proposal to financial closo, when the Minister goes out and invites proposals to the point where there’s an offtake that you have agreed on the tariffs, it takes about 18 months. And from that period of 18 months to construction it takes 24 months. In total that cycle takes you
42 months. Something about three and half years for you to complete that process.
And what else do we know? We also know on account of Eskom that to build new line, essentially, additional grid capacity to accommodate the renewable energy project, it takes them anything between five to eight years. So, if you work on those timelines, assuming tomorrow you go out on a request for proposal, you would close that process in three and half years. Essentially you close it by 2028. And then for you to evacuate the electrons you need another five years, 2029; and I did say that between now and 2027 you would have removed
5 200mw.
The point we are simply making is that we did not argue that we are going to transition into darkness. The point we are making is that you can’t transition in the dark, the lights must be on, the economy must be sustainable as you
decarbonise; that’s the point we are making, having committed to that agenda.
Just to give you an example, the fourth best performing power station in Eskom is Camden. And in terms of that agenda, we must close three units now, by July. Essentially we’ll be adding ... one unit is around 140mw. You’re adding 420mw in addition to what we are already missing. The point we’re making is that rethink the decommission schedule, extend it, we are doing a bit of modelling to see what are the implications on emissions, climate change, what are the cause that are required. But what we know, as I stand before you, the country can ill-afford to remove those megawatts because we need them to sustain this economy. And in fact, we want these units to perform, going to the future. That’s the point we are making, we have engaged with the number of players. The banks; we made an effort to ensure that we explain this position to them. I met with the ceo, Chief Executive Officer, of the banks. I met with the principal sponsors of the Just Energy Transition Investment Plan, JETIP, programme, the major western powers, to explain South Africa’s situation, not to ask for permission but explain it because they are our partners and we are the owners of the Just Energy Transition
Programme. The workers and communities need to know that, what do we mean by just. Otherwise you are going to decimate the economy of Mpumalanga and it’s important that we balance the equation. Thanks, Chair.
Mr M DANGOR: Hon Chair, let me welcome the National Minister of a central state, we are not a federal state.
Hon Minister, thank you for your elaborate response to my question. Does the delaying of the decommissioning schedule mean and what is the impact on the energy plan? Thank you very much, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon Dangor,
what it means is it gives us an immediate relief to ensure that we have megawatts on the grid and we are able to evacuate the electrons and essentially bring down the severity of loadshedding. Of course, that is predicated on the assumption that we are going to be successful in improving the energy availability factor and we have every reason to believe that we are going to succeed in that cause. I think it’s important that there has to be that appreciation.
And, of course, I did say that we are doing modelling with regard to implications of emission level as a result of the delayed decommissioning. We are doing studies in relation to what that translate, into climate change. Of course, we know that a lot of communities in KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and the North West were devastated by extreme occurrence of extreme weather conditions and that can be put down to climate change. I think any rational scientist will know that there’s a correlation between the emission levels and also the interference of the chemical balance of the atmosphere, resulting in the incident of extreme weather conditions.
We have every intention to ensure that we address that situation, we are able to improve the energy availability factor. And its relationship with the energy action plan, hon Dangor, I did indicate that the first outcome of the energy action plan says we must fix Eskom and improve the energy availability factor. So, this has got a direct relationship or correlation, with our quest to ensure that we improve the energy availability factor of Eskom units. Because the more you take it out, the more you undermining our ability to extract, sweat this asset to be able to serve the South
African economy as we look to decarbonise; we decarbonise under conditions of our own making.
Loadshedding is not conditions of our own making, imposed on us, of course, through acts of inaction, omission or commission, but it’s important that we have an appreciation that we are here and, therefore, we need to do something extraordinary to address this situation and that’s why we fell it prudent that in the course of taking this action, we have to communicate with our key partners so that there’s greater levels of appreciation on what South Africa is doing. We looking to protect the energy sovereignty of this country and ensure that we protect the interest of the South African economy and her people. Thanks, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, I would like to know: In the process of decommissioning will there be a need of reskilling of current workers? If yes, has government started to work on a plan? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon Hadebe, I
think just to answer that question, first, is our definition of what is just. In our view is that there mustn’t a one-
dimensional articulation of what is just. So, just is not about the protection of the environment and species, but it’s also about the interest of the people and the economy.
I always use the example of Mpumalanga. If you look at the footprint of this coal-fired power stations, for obvious reasons, they are concentrated in Mpumalanga. So, the Mpumalanga economy is what I call ‘the coal economy’.
Essentially, it’s the coal mines, people work in the coal mines, they reside there, they spend their money there.
There’s yellow plant that you use to mine the coal. There’s a plant that you use to transport the coal in instances where they are not there, connected by conveyer belt.
There’s an industry parallel to that, of mechanics and all of that, people who sell the parts, who service that part of the economy.
Then there’s a mine ... there’s a power station itself, engineers, technicians – you call them – security guards, cleaners and the like, they are likely to be residing in those communities, they buy from those shops there, they spend their money there and then there are the mammas at the corner shop,
corner street, who sell fat cakes and the like, winter morning, they service these people.
And, again, there’s also issues around the components that are supplied in order to maintain this. So, the economy of Mpumalanga is really about coal. If you close all of that you have decimated that space. Our view is that when you make that transition, firstly, there’s an existence of grid capacity. I did make the point earlier on that there’s no grid capacity in the Northern Cape, Eastern Cape and Western Cape. So, your earliest opportunity to evacuate any renewable energy sources on to the grid is in Mpumalanga.
But remember the ratio of people who work in the renewable energy space and those who work in coal is one to three. For every three workers in the coal value chain, you only get one. It’s important, you’re displacing two employees. So, it’s important that part of the training takes that into consideration. If you are saying ‘I’m going to manufacture the panels’, it only makes sense that the concentration of that manufacturing capacity must be located there, the entire value chain, battery storage and the like. If we have the size of
the capacity that we want to build into the future, should be located there.
Part of the things that we know is that concentration of the platinum group of metals, which is a major input into the production of the many technologies that are going to support the production of panels and battery storage.
Ninety percent of the known deposits in the world are between South Africa and Zimbabwe. So, you must be able to beneficiate here. Your major development institution must create a financing facility to allow black people to move into that space. And as you said, as industry must be set in those areas that are most affected by this; and that’s the just that we are talking about. We don’t want to protect the environment at the risk of people’s lives, immediately, of course, it’s got climate, it’s got implication of people’s lives, going into the future. It is that entire calculus that requires our attention, hon Hadebe. Thanks, Chair.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Minister, which measures have you taken for South Africa to make use of clean coal technologies, because
we will not be able to immediately abandon coal as a source of energy? I thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Ntate [Mr]
Motsamai, you are absolutely right. I think we’ve got major deposits of coal. And also if you look at the integrated resource plan, it does make provision for coal. Of course, each share of the energy mix will be coming down, for obvious reason, substituted by exponential rise in the share of renewables.
It’s important that for you to be able to undermine the emissions level, that you look at cleaner technologies of exploiting that coal.
The example I gave earlier on, I forgot to mention that, that unit that’s called the fuel gas desulphurisation unit, that unit alone costs R40 billion. So, if you’re going to install that unit in all the 14 coal power stations, just imagine, it’s R40 billion times 14; so you need R560 billion just on retrofit.
But then there are also technical problems. The old coal-fired power stations are not designed to accommodate that unit. So, that’s not your solution, but yet you still have the honorous requirement of bringing the emission levels down.
What are the options we have? You’re absolutely right there, hon Ntate [Mr] Motsamai, is for us to look at those solutions. And I think the point I’m making is that we must look at all options before us. So, there are others who want to make us believe, to say that ‘if it’s not this solution then there’s no other solution’. I think it’s very myopic, I don’t think it helps to resolve our challenges. Let’s look at all these technologies, irrespective of where they come from, any part of the world, as long as they help us to ensure that we decarbonise, also protecting some of these assets that we are sitting with.
These are significant endowments. These are godly endowments; they are being given to us. We want to exploit them but we have an obligation to decarbonise; so, it’s important to see how best you are able to accommodate new technologies to help us to achieve both, but accepting that there’s an exponential
rise of the share of renewables and then we are going to meet our net zero path by 2050. I thank you, Chair.
Mr M R BARA: Minister, I think you seem to be ready for the task ahead and I know that it’s a huge one, and South Africans are looking upon to deliver on this one.
Minister, how will you manage the delegate balance of striving for Just Energy Transition, JET, funding and keeping the electricity supply stable, considering that there might be a significant lag time between receiving the funding and the first watt being fed into the national grid? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR ELECTRICITY: Hon member, I
fully agree with you, it’s a delicate balance. Firstly, it is to say that the ownership of the Just Energy Transition Partnership, JETP, programme is a South African initiative supported by partners, so it’s not something is owned by some other partners; it’s a South African initiative. In fact, what South Africa does now, in the context of the crisis that it’s confronting us, is to say that there’s a need for us to look
at rescheduling of decommissioning timelines of this coal- fired power station.
You’re absolutely right, earlier on I did make the point on the time it takes for us to get the electrons out of the renewables on stream, vis-a-vi our ability to be able to replace or add new generation capacity to help us to resolve loadshedding. So, I did make the point that from financial request for proposal to financial close, average 18 months; construction 24 months; so, it’s two to three and half years for you to get renewables on stream to start producing. But because you are producing in areas where there’s no great capacity, of course, if you don’t get to match the location of this renewable project with where there’s grid capacity, if there’s misalignment, then you need to build new lines. And Eskom says it will take them anything between five and eight years at a cost of about R210 billion. So, it’s about matching those, and in the cause of doing that, protecting the South African economy and also being unwavering in our decarbonisation agenda.
That’s the modelling I spoke about, the emission level implications on climate and also the issues around costs. but
even before you do that, we know now, as I speak before you, that you can ill-afford to decommission those three units that come there, and in fact, ill-afford to remove most of them by 2027 because we are removing 5 200megawatts and the speed with which we are able to bring others on stream, it’s such that it will not be able to match the decarbonisation schedule and that’s the balance that we are trying to strike.
Of course, a big part of the JETP has to do with the fact that there must be significant improvement in grid capacity and grid strength; and that’s why that’s why that conversation is important. And of course, National Treasury did make the point, as part of the condition of the R254 billion fiscal relief to Eskom, that they will not be able to borrow. But, of course, if you go to the JETP programme you are essentially borrowing. So, those are conversations that are happening internally because we have come to have an appreciation that you have to build a grid.
If you were to ask me, standing here, and say ‘Ramokgopa, what is the biggest risk facing the country?’, I know it will be odd coming from me; of course, generation is our immediate problem and we are trying to resolve it. But the biggest
challenge facing us, potential risk, is at the level of the grid because of its integrated nature, there’s a single point of failure. It fails there, then you are going to have a blackout.
I’m sure you saw the situation in Botswana, was it a day or two ago? Collapse of the grid, essentially on the transmission side. And I did say earlier on, we will not have that, on the generation side, because we are keeping that reserve margin.
But there’s less protection on the grid side and that’s the point of failure. And, yes, I think part of these efforts is to ensure that it doesn’t degrade our ability to end loadshedding, get the South African economy going, ensure that we lessen or minimise the number of job losses. We are able to ensure that nudge the South African economy into recovery, we give the investor community the assurance that South Africa is still the right place to invest in. but that assurance will come if they start to see that there’s progress in limiting loadshedding.
That’s why it’s important that as we enter the winter period, mention those four actions that we are putting in place to provide some degree of relief so that you don’t go to higher
stages of loadshedding, they are effective, we get out of the winter period.
I did share with the House and the country, what are those measures that we are putting in place, Kusile, Medupi, demand side management, emergency power. I’m confident that we will be in a position, to not only reduce the severity and the regularity frequency, but defeat loadshedding. Thanks, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Afternoon colleagues, Chairperson, House Chairperson and Ministers. Let me also join and thank the Minister for being in the House. We go straight to Transport. Fortunately the Minister is in the House, so let us invite her to the podium. You are welcome, hon Minister.
The first question is Question 79 asked by hon Mmoeimang. Hon Minister?
Question 79:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson and hon members of the National Council of Provinces, the reply to the question is as follows: The investigation which was commissioned by National Treasury is still ongoing. Further actions, if any, will depend on the outcome of the investigation referred to in
my answer that I just gave. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Mr K M MMOEIMANG: House Chair, good afternoon to the Minister, and a special word of appreciation and congratulations on your appointment as a Minister of Transport. I would also like to appreciate your response to the question and I understand from your response that the investigation is done by Treasury. Are there any internal controls, learning from what is happening, put in place to detect and stop maladministration so that such doesn’t happen again moving forward? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Indeed we do have internal controls. The first one is the use of the Division of Revenue Act, DoRA, conditions framework. Secondly, developing guidelines on a number of areas that are related to Integrated Public Transport Network, IPTN. We also have bilateral with the cities every quarter where we receive and study reports from cities. We also monitor expenditure against progress on the ground, for instance, on the main question that was asked we were able to detect maladministration on the basis of what was happening on the ground. We also do listen to whistle blowers. So, yes, we do have systems in place to ensure that
we detect maladministration in the IPTN programme. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: House Chair, to the Minister, welcome to the House. It is good to have a new Minister in the House. As I serve on your committee that deals with transport I’ll get to know you very well. The situation in Rustenburg is very similar to the catastrophe in KwaZulu-Natal that I represent, where the Department of Transport has racked up R27 billion in irregular expenditure. This was reported in detail by the Auditor-General, but there seems to be little, if any, action taken to date. Like Rustenburg, what will you do to clean house in KwaZulu-Natal?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Like I have indicated, we do have these measures that enable us to detect any maladministration, and I have mentioned them. For instance, in Rustenburg we transferred an amount of R4,1 billion for IPTN. We went there to check and we found that there was nothing much on the ground equal to the money they had spent. We were also informed by the workers that they were not being paid by the major contractor. That is how we picked up these things. We instituted an investigation that is still ongoing. It is the
same thing if it happens elsewhere. If we get information from the hon member that they believe that there is some maladministration that is happening, and it is our money for that matter, then of course we will ensure that we investigate that.
I must indicate that as the Department of Transport we transfer money to provinces if it is, for instance, road and road infrastructure, but if it is for IPTN then we transfer to municipalities and make follow-us on whether they deliver.
Hence there is this investigation in Rustenburg and there is another one in Mangaung. If there is anything in eThekwini we will definitely investigate that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. The third follow up question is from hon Du Toit who is on the virtual platform. Hon Du Toit? Unfortunately he seems to be unavailable, unless, hon Visser, you can come to his rescue? If we do not have anything then we will move to the fourth one from hon Mokause who is also on the virtual platform. Hon Mokause? You can stand for her if you have the question. Mathevula standing in for hon Mokause.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: House Chairperson, to the Minister, these tourism funds seem to neglect entrepreneurs from rural communities and township communities. What plan did your department put in place ... [Interjections.]
The House Chairperson (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mathevula, we are dealing with Transport.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Oh, it’s Transport! Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, hon Du Toit is available on the virtual platform. Let us allow him to ask his question. Hon Du Toit?
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, to the hon Minister, according to you, what measure of responsibility does the provincial legislature and provincial treasury have in this scandal that took place over a 14 year period, and what role did your department play in the planning, rolling out and monitoring of the projects? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I hope I heard the question well. If the question is about why it is the National Treasury that
is investigating, it is because the National Treasury has the resources and it is easy for them to appoint the investigating team. That is why we went to the National Treasury and ask that they appoint an investigating company for us so that this can happen as quickly as possible. Otherwise if we are following our processes we would probably still be procuring and that is why both Mangaung and Rustenburg are already being investigated. The Mangaung one is in fact finished because there is a report on my table, and this one will be finished before the end of June as per what the National Treasury told us. I hope I heard the question, House Chair. Thank you.
Question 63:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, the question is on repairs of roads that were damaged in KwaZulu-Natal during April 2022 floods. May I again indicate that funding to repair infrastructure damaged by April 2022 floods was pronounced during 2022-23 budget adjustment and that was October last year. An amount of
R731 million from Sanral toll and none toll portfolio has since been transferred to the province to restore access following progress can therefore be reported.
All short-term interventions that include to make roads safe, provide deviations, and traffic accommodation and minor failures repairs have been completed. Progress on major repairs is as follows: UMhlanga River Bridge has been completed and now opened for traffic. Both uMhlali and Tongaat River Bridges are on tender stages. The KZN entered into a memorandum of agreement with Sanral to fast-track the repairs of the damages to infrastructure. Regarding the waiver of toll fees that was granted by Sanral at oTongaat and uMvoti Toll Plaza on the N2 whole route that was suspended to assist communities, whose alternative routes were damaged as a temporal measure has now since been reinstated. So indeed the toll collection resumed on the 1st of April this year.
There are also provincial roads that were damaged. Those they include M4 between eThekwini and Zimbali, R104 from Stanger to Maphumulo and P107 and P102 towards Stilimele to Stanger towards KwaDukuza also experienced serious damages and work is underway to repair all these affected sections of these roads,
17 of them which are part of the provincial strategic network.
Both M4 and 102 are now open to traffic. Only P107 and P104 are still closed. However, the contractor is now on site for construction of P107. Construction at the majority of sites
has also started and expected to be completed in August this year. On the other provincial road network and district levels, 95 are completed and 45 are at tender stages. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, I really want to encourage you to come and visit KZN because what you have been told I’m sure by your officials is not reflecting reality on the ground. As I stand with you today, Minister, I can tell you that the N2 at uMgababa just the Northern of Mkomazi is still not functional not fixed. I can tell you R102 near uMkomazi right by uMkomazi Bridge is still not fixed. I can tell you that the road between Westbrook and Ballito is still not fixed. That was a reason for the closure of that Toll Mvoti Plaza which by the way the House will be interested to know. Sanral lost R500 million in that period but still the road is not fixed and also Minister you have been incorrectly informed. People going off and onto the highway at that point do not have to pay. It’s only the straight through traffic that is paying. Sanral is still leaching the funds there simply because they cannot fix that section between Westbrook and Ballito.
Then, we’ve got a really big important that House Chair has been with me, and saw MR551 that is the road across Shongweni due to Mpumalanga near Hammarsdale is still not fixed. It is still not fixed to this day. Its cutting off the people of Mpumalanga near Hammarsdale. They have to travel all the way around and it cost them three times the amount of the taxi fare because that road is still not fixed. In fact, we even had a tragic case of MEC Peggy Nkonyane who was almost killed in a terrible accident which as a result of potholes and wash- away caused by the April floods. That happens some time back, we almost lost our dear MEC as a result of these damages.
The point is Minister is that there are funds available, engineers available, the right staff available to get this done. But at the provincial level, politicians seem to be getting in the way. I need to know, Minister and we will come with you. Me and the House Chair we have been there ourselves. What would you do to urgently intervene to try to sort up this mess, once and for all? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I think I did mention that P107 and P102 experienced serious damages and work is still underway to repair those two. But
also other roads experienced serious damages. You need designs and engineers to go and look at those roads and come up with designs. Go out on tender and to have them repaired. What I actually said is that when the disaster was declared we looked at those means and ways of saving to ensure that people are able to walk and are connected to amenities. Of course, we then attended to those roads that were easy to repair but bridges that require major repairs, of course, which also will not want to do whatever haphazard or shoddy work they then need and require extensive investigation, designing and all that. That is why there will be bridges that have not been repaired or possibly roads that have not been repaired.
However, you are specifically mentioning roads, if you can actually give me those specific roads. I can look at those and attend to those if there’s a need. Otherwise, for those that require major repairs you’ve got to get money, people that can do that. You have got to design and so on and so forth. That is the process you are undertaking. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe uMnyango wakho ubonakala iminyaka neminyaka ubadicilela phansi abantu baKwaZulu-Natali. Izikhukhula zalonyaka owedlule we-2022
zisibonisile ukuthi imigwaqo yethu ayiphephile kangakanani KwaZulu-Natali. Ngqongqoshe umbuzo uthi: Yisiphi isizathu osibonayo esenza ukuthi kubekhona lokusilela emuva ukuthi imigwaqo ilungiswe kuze kube manje, nanokuthi iyiphi ipulani onalo ukuthi le migwaqo yenziwe ngokushesha? Nokuthi yisiphi isiqiniseko ongasinikeza le Ndlu ukuthi lamakontileka asemgwaqeni kuyimanje nalawo asazoba emgwaqeni ngabe akulungele ukwakha le migwaqo futhi ayazi yini ukuthi kumele enzeni?
Ngqongqoshe, ngiyazizwa izimpendulo zakho ukhombisa ukuthi unolwazi lokuthi kukhona imigwaqo eseyiphelile. Thina esihlala kwaZulu-Natali akunjengoba nje uNgqongqoshe esho. Ngiyabonga.
English:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much. Water and roads are enemies.
IsiZulu:
Umgwaqo namanzi yizitha. Yingakho nathi sithe la uma kuba nezikhukhula kwahamba imigwaqo emisha. Akuqali manje ukuthi kwenzeke lokho. Ngikhumbula kahle ngiyakwazi KwaZulu-Natali ngonyaka we-1982 kwahamba amabhuloho amakhulu oThukela.
Kwaphinda futhi kwenzeka lokho, kuyaqhubeka kuyenzeka. Isizathu esikhulu okufuneka sisibuke ukuthi senze ukuthi amanzi angabi maningi emgwaqeni. Ngiyacabanga ukuthi yizinto esizenzisisayo lezo. Sizamile ukusheshisa. Khumbula into yomgwaqo iyabiza akuyona nje imali encane. Ukulungisa umgwaqo nokulungisa amabhuloho kufuna imali enjengemali. Yebo imali ebakhona ngaleso sikhathi iyakwazi ukuthi senze abantu bakhone ukuthi mhlawumbe bahambe baye ezikoleni, nasemakliniki.
Siphuthuma lokho. Uma sekuqhubeka sekufuneka kwakhiwe amabhuloho nomgwaqo ngempela osezingeni elifanele kudingeka kulandelwe izindlela ezithize. Kufike onjiniyela bazobuka ukuthi kufanele kwakhiwe kanjani ukuze uma kwakhiwa mhlawumbe kwakhiwe umgwaqo oncono kunalowo obukade ukhona. Kusho futhi ukuthi siphume siyengaphandle siyofuna abasuke bazowakha lowo mgwaqo. Yingakho kube sekuthatha isikhathi nakho futhi kufuneka siyithole nemali ngoba sisuke singalindele ukuthi kuzohamba amabhuloho ngaleso sikhathi. Uma kukhona umgwaqo la abantu banganelisekile ngokuthi bathi ulungisiwe ungalungisiwe unganginikeza umniningwane Ngingajabula kakhulu ukwazi lokho sihambe siyobuka.
English:
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson, and hon Minister, there are a number of roads still undergoing design processes. What is a reason for it to take this long and when is the construction expected to begin on these roads? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: It’s because, of course, for those who need to procure you need to go on supply chain processes. You’ve got to get engineers. You’ve got to design the bridge. You’ve got to go out on tender and to build the bridge and that is why the delay. You need also to get the resources for such bridges because you would have not planned to build or to construct that bridge. So you need to get resources. I must indicate that good as we have Sanral for instance that we thought we are going to use but Sanral cannot use its resources for instance on roads that are not national roads.
It can assist, but it cannot use its own resources because that is against the law. So we have to get other resources from elsewhere. It can be from the PRMG grant and then of course, repair the road or build that bridge. There are quite a number of other issues that are at play when these things happen. That is why we are happy that at least we are at the
stage where we think in the near future we will then be able to start at the construction. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Minister. Hon Minister, is your department put mechanisms in place to monitor if the money allocated to provinces is actually used for the desired purpose? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Indeed, we do, like I indicated earlier on the DORA framework sounds specifies what money is for, and that money cannot be used for other things. Secondly, if we are talking about PRMG for instance, before we transfer money we ask provinces to give us their business plans. Then of course, we look at that on the basis of that, we then transfer money but we don’t just transfer all the amount. We also check on whether the province is spending that money but also it is spending the money on what is in their business plan. Of course, I must indicate that when it comes to roads, provinces are road authorities in their own right. That is in the Constitution. So yes, we monitor. Yes, we follow up on our money but sometimes even ourselves we may not necessarily be very happy with the outcome of what is happening. It is a fact of life that in the past 10 years we actually have transferred
something like R 106 billion to different provinces. There are many factors at play that probably make the roads not in a state we would want them to be. However, we do transfer money and we do monitor how the money is spent. We can do better. We are looking at how else are we going to ensure that we monitor the spending of money. Sometimes we come after everything has happened and we would want to find means and ways of being proactive in what is happening to the extent that we have even engineers who can go to sites and roads that are set to be under construction using our PRMG.
Question 78:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much. The question is on restoration of Passenger Rail Services SA. Can I indicate that Prasa is currently offering commuter rail services in four regions, namely KwaZulu-Natal, shouting Western Cape and the Eastern Cape for mainland passenger services whose lines are operated on a monthly basis and during high peak periods? That is between Johannesburg to Queenstown and Pretoria and Musina.
On 9 March 2022, the Department of Transport concluded and implemented protocol known as IP with government departments
involved in the relocation of illegal occupants in the railway reserves along the central. An intergovernmental steering committee was created in order to bring together all relevant stakeholders to play their respective roles to expedite their relocation.
The committee comprises of departments and entities from all three spheres of government. That is the Department of Transported, national level department of transport in the province of the Western Cape, the Department of Human Settlements, the City of Cape Town Municipality as well Prasa in targeting to have the relocation of communities completed as soon as possible, in order to resume services on the remaining sections of the central line.
Currently, the central line is operating from Cape Town to Nyanga. as the intergovernmental committee is addressing the long-term plan of permanently relocating communities from railway reserves on the line. Of course Prasa is pursuing temporal measures to enable it to commence with rebuilding the vandalised infrastructure along the line, to make it possible to extend services on the central line in the Western
Cape. These Services operate between Nyanga Junction Station and Kapteinsklip Station and these are already operating. We want to extend them to Khayelitsha and Philippi. I thank you very much.
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you Chairperson. Minister: What is the role of the community and commuters in trying to resolve the problem of relocation and the securing of the infrastructure against vandalism? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, I must indicate that we are engaging, particularly Prasa is engaging communities and they are doing that in a structured approach. For instance, on the 8 September 2022, government held a signing ceremony for the social compact. I must also indicate a person that there has been quite a number of meetings between the group-CEO, a professor manager in the Western Cape and of course the HDA and the people. That in fact, institutions that signed that social compact and the members and the communities in these areas are more than willing to relocate.
The challenge that we are facing is the land to which they need to be relocated. If they can be relocated today, Prasa will continue with the building of that rail infrastructure and I am sure that we will restore the rail services in that area. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister: Why did your department not act immediately in the removal or the eviction of the individuals when the squatting took place, in spite of the fact that you just stated that land was an issue; and was this failure to act timelessly to remove these people and repair the rails a political decision or a departmental flaw? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Transport does not own land. The land that Prasa owns is called rail reserves and they are not meant for human settlement. If we are to relocate anyone, then of course the relevant departments, including the municipality, for instance, in Cape Town and the Province itself, they have got to give us land so that those people can be relocated.
In the absence of land, they remain in our reserves and of course they make it impossible for us to continue with what Prasa is there for -its core business to provide passenger rail through to the people of South Africa, including ensuring that the infrastructure is in good condition. Their signalling is what we are waiting for. People that must assist us with land must say again so that those people can be relocated.
They are more than willing for now to be relocated.
As present, we are saying even if they are real located to a temporary area and then after that move to a permanent area we will be happy because we are ready. Prasa is ready to continue with that project, particularly on the central line. Of Course, it will be in other areas where we have people that are occupying a rail reserves. It shouldn’t happen. We should not have people there. Thank you very much
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Minister. In light of the potential benefits of decentralising railway services, such as fostering local economic development, improving accessibility to remote areas and encouraging regional ownership: How does the Ministry of Transport justify
its decision not to pursue the decentralisation of railway services? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Two person on the issue related to the evolution of railway services, the rail policy is clear on what should happen and I think we are busy with the strategy in that regard. Therefore, we can’t just do something like that willingly. There definitely will be people and municipalities but we may want that, but find that they are not able to provide such. So, yes, we are looking into the red policy. It was adopted by Cabinet and it actually tell us exactly as to what it is that need to happen if we are to devote real services.
I must also indicate that the question at hand on the relocation of people, actually, is not dependent on whether rail services are devolved or not. It is just people that informally occupy rail reserves make it impossible for us to run the services be it plaster or anybody else for that matter.
So, ours for now is to ensure that those people are relocated and I think this is why we are happy that we have
representatives of provinces here and we actually have been reliably informed that there are land areas to which these people can be relocated. We would beg and request members who are here to ensure that they talk to the provinces, in particular the Western Cape here, so that we can relocate those people and continue with the infrastructure development. I am saying and emphasising this point because with any delay, there is cost involved. Delay in infrastructure built is not free; it is costly. So, we want to find ourselves being able to go ahead with this project so that we are able to fund it. Otherwise, the cost will escalate. Thank you very much
Mr K MOTSAMAI: I will take it. Thank you, Minister. The communities of Mangaung are traveling daily between Botshabelo and Bloemfontein since the residence of both towns request the government to introduce rail transport to reduce traffic conjunction of the N8 national road. How far is your department to implement this request of Mangaung residents? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I think I would want to look at the request. Otherwise, like I have indicated, for now we are providing commuter rail services in four regions - that is
KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng, Western Cape as well as Eastern Cape. If you look at what we are planning to do during this financial year. We also have not accommodated Free State for now, but if there is any request we can look into the request.
I am not promising that we are therefore going to provide the services, but if there is a request, we can always entertain the request and look at it to consider what is possible. I am not sure whether you are talking about a new rail being built or constructed and rail services being offered to the people in the area. I am not sure about that. Otherwise, for this financial year, definitely there is interest. Thank you.
Question 74:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, Question 74 is on the increase in road fatalities. Can I indicate that the country's road safety programme is informed by scientific data as well as provincial dynamics, and it is not a one-size-fits-all approach? The programme is determined provincially in a process that is co-ordinated centrally by the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC.
Informed by available road crash information, provinces develop plans to address fatal crashes in their specific areas of operation and this information is incorporated into the 365 days Integrated Law Enforcement and Road Safety Programme. The same process is undertaken when developing heightened plans for peak travel periods, such as the Easter weekend, as well as the festive season.
The integrated plans are discussed and evaluated at the National Road Safety Steering Committee attended by all HODs or their representatives, including members of the SA Police Service as well as Metro Police chiefs. The deployment of law enforcement officers is further informed by statistics, intelligence, and as I've indicated, scientific research that has been conducted in collaboration with academia and other bodies of knowledge such as the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR.
This intelligence has informed us about where the hazardous locations are in the country and what kind of actions or operations are required. For example, a particular hazardous location may require visible policing and another hazardous location may require a static roadblock to be erected. The
department ensures that there is consistency in conducting these operations, and the same is the case with educational awareness programmes. Furthermore, the 365 days plan is not a one-size-fits-all. Chairperson, I thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, one of the leading causes of road fatalities in the KwaZulu-Natal province is the unacceptable road surface and structural condition and the number of unroadworthy vehicles on the roads. I would like to know, what responsibility will the government and the department bear when road accidents occur as a result of the government's slow response in fixing and maintaining the road infrastructure. Lastly, what improvements will the department make to ensure a higher and more frequent inspection rate of a vehicle's roadworthiness? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, and thank you very much, hon Hadebe, roadworthiness is done every day. Traffic officers are out there to ensure the vehicles that are on the road are worthy to be on the road. Also, you will know that if you buy a second-hand car, you still have got to go and have it tested
and then it is allowed to be on the road, but can I say statistics do not confirm what you are saying, sir, 96% of road accidents are as a result of human factors. Coming from the Easter weekend, for instance, 96%, it is only, as a matter of fact, from what you are saying, it is only 4,5% that is a result of, one, engineering factors and environmental factors combined, and if you look even at those if human factors were to be taken into consideration and seriously, even those would be reduced.
It is a problem where people do not abide by the rules of the road, where people drink and drive, where people use cell phones when driving, and where people don't buckle up, where people speed, that we have so many fatalities. As a matter of fact, in South Africa, if you look at the hazardous sites that I'm talking about, they are not in the main in the potholed roads. They are on our national roads. Those beautiful state- of-the-art world-class routes. That is where we then say we have hazardous locations.
It is on the N2. On the N1. It is on the N4 to Mpumalanga, N1 to Polokwane, where people die the most, and if you look at those roads, there are no potholes whatsoever but what people
do, they drive as if they are the only ones who own cars. They don't buckle up, they drink and drive and so forth. So yes, it's a fact that we've got to ensure that all the vehicles that are on our roads are roadworthy. We do that. We have traffic officers on our roads. They are visible. They check on speed, but of course, it's about the 96% human factor.
Mr M R BARA: Thank you, House Chair, Minister, one of the primary reasons for fatal accidents in South Africa is the overburdening of the existing road infrastructure by trucks. This explosion in the trucking industry is primary due to the failure of the freight rail system under the watch of your government. What agile interventions will you make to start the shift of freight transport back to rail and bring the trucking industry to heal in terms of safety standards? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, the mushrooming of trucks on the roads in South Africa has a history and as a matter of fact, it is not this government that is responsible for that. In 1986, the apartheid government put in place a commission that was led by a man called De Villiers to check and investigate whether it is fine and proper for the
government to continue to invest in rail. At the time, the apartheid government was spending something like R6 billion and R6 billion at that time was a lot of money. That man, who is not very intelligent, informed the government that it is not necessary to invest in rail. By 1994, the apartheid government was already spending something like R600 million, from R6 billion, because it took that report to be the gospel truth.
Combined with that then the apartheid government deregulated the transportation of goods on the roads. So, on this side, you are not investing in rail infrastructure. On the other side, you are deregulating the transportation of goods. The combination of that brought what we are seeing today, the mushrooming of trucks on the roads because you have got the rail infrastructure that was not renovated, that was not refurbished over years in South Africa. We came into government and I think for quite some time we did not then decide to reverse that decision and that is why we are where we are today.
So it is not this government that is responsible for stupid decisions. It is that commission that said the government
doesn’t invest in the rail infrastructure and the rail infrastructure deregulated. That is what happened in South Africa. That is the history of railways in South Africa. You can just go and Google that. It is there. That is what happened. However, we agree with you that the number of trucks, particularly on the road between Durban and Johannesburg, that corridor, is too high and the N3 can no longer accommodate that, and that is why we are saying we have got to move with speed towards ensuring that we move freight from road to rail but there is history to that. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Baba u-Nyambi, Ngqongqoshe womnyango, ngiyajabula ukuthi uyavuma ukuthi amaloli abonakala emaningi kakhulu emgwaqeni kodwa Ngqongqoshe eKwaZulu-Natal sinamachweba amabili amakhulu namatasa kakhulu, elilodwa lisesifundeni i-King Cetshwayo elingaphansi kweThekwini Metro futhi amaloli ahamba kulowo mgwaqo maniningi ngale ndlela exaka usathane okungezinye zezimbangela zezingozi esizibonayo emigwaqeni.
Futhi, Ngqongqoshe, imigwaqo yethu ayizange iklanyelwe amaloli asindayo amangaka. Ngakhoke eziphi izinhlelo ezikhona zokuthi sisheshise ukuthi amaloli ancishiswe emigwaqeni ukuze sikwazi ukuzigwema zonke lezi zingozi? Ngiyabonga kakhulu.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo weNdlu, khona kufanele ngiwuphendule umbuzo kodwa kahlehle uma ubuka ngokuthuthwa kwempahla, ubufanele ukuphendulwa ngomunye umnyango. Thina kwezokuthutha ...
English:
... we are the receiving department of probably the failure of rail freight to operate so that we can then remove the freight from our road to rail. What we are considering now as a way which we think it is within us, is also to consider some cargo that is air-friendly. It's not a lot but we are looking at air cargo so that we probably can remove some, but also we are talking to our counterparts, that is Transnet, to say, for instance, the Durban-Johannesburg corridor, today as it is, we are informed that even without anything, it can still accommodate not less than 20 to 30 trains without you doing much on it and with thinking that if possible, that should be considered and be done.
Because it doesn't matter the extension and expansion that we are doing on the N3, but the number of trucks is way too much for those roads, way too much for the N2, coal should not be on the road. I agree with that. It should not be on the road. It is not road-friendly freight. It is rail-friendly freight and it should be on rail. I know for sure that there are measures that are being taken to ensure that more trains are being bought or procured so that we have more on that corridor between Ermelo in particular in Mpumalanga and Richards Bay. I fully agree with you.
This is putting a lot of pressure on our roads. The SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, will not be able to keep up with the pace of renovating and renewing and reconstructing and maintaining roads every year because of the number of trucks in those corridors. I agree. Thank you.
Mr M DANGOR: Thank you, hon Minister, for the response. How does the implementation of an integrated national safety plan assist in the intention of the department to address fatal crashes on the roads? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, if I were to talk to, yes, the issue of a safety plan, firstly, it is an integration that lifts elements that include ownership and buy-in to the plan by all the role-players. So that is an important principle and it is also a common understanding that when you are part of a programme you will do everything in your power to make sure that whatever you do collectively succeeds and also results are being achieved.
The intention of implementing a plan to address fatal crashes by the department is to ensure that everybody is responsible for the prevention of road crashes and, therefore, we say all hands are on deck. I say this against the backdrop and background that if we don't do anything, we going to have quite a number of accidents happening. Having said that, it must be borne in mind that the government or the department working alone will not be able to fight and prevent road fatalities. It is for this reason that we do have this national safety plan that includes all the role-players so that together we can then prevent accidents from happening.
There are quite a number of reasons why we have accidents. In provinces, for instance, you'll have stray animals being the
cause of accidents. You've got many other reasons that are responsible for accidents and that is why we need ourselves, we need communities, we need the private sector, and we need everybody to form part of the plan and that is what the national safety plan is all about. Thank you very much.
Question 65:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Question 65 is on presence or efficacy of the Road Traffic Inspectorate, RTI. Can I therefore state that the Department of Transport has 365 days Arrive Alive programme, and it has also an action plan which I have already referred to. It is known as the National Road Safety Strategy. In fact, it implements the National Road Safety Strategy, NRSS. The National Road Safety Strategy itself is anchored on the UN Decade of Action for Road Safety which commenced in 2011, and ended in 2020. However, the UN decided to extend it to end in 2030. This is aligned with our local National Development Plan, NDP, timeframes and our National Road Safety Strategy. South Africa is a signatory to the UN Decade of Action for Road Safety.
Three hundred and sixty-five Arrive Alive plan is anchored on five pillars of the UN Decade of Action for Road Safety, as
well as our NRSS, and those are road safety management, safer mobility, safer vehicles, safer road users and post-crash responses. In our case, the plan is integrated, collaborated, and collective. In the main, it is also looking at stabilizing and then reduce the high rate of fatalities. That’s what the UN said that it expects countries that they will first stabilize road crashes, and then reduce after that. We believe that we can achieve that difficult as it is.
Ours is anchored on education, training and awareness of all road users, law enforcement of road traffic rules, safer infrastructure using modern technology to curb fatalities and road safety management as well.
The crash that happened on the N3 as it is also questioned in KwaZulu-Natal is indeed regrettable. It was the only major crash reported for the past Easter weekend.
To enforce road safety programme in April 2023, we have augmented the traffic law enforcement officers by 257 graduates who qualified with the National Qualifications Framework, NQF, Level 6 qualification for traffic officers, and we are hoping that this too is going to add on the numbers
of our traffic officers on the roads. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon House Chair, Minister, once again, I must agree with you. You responded in an earlier question and said the problem on our roads is driver behaviour. You are quite correct; it is driver behaviour. Another question my colleague, hon Bara, touched on is trucks. We know that there is massive driver behaviour problem with trucks as well. So, the thrust of the question is that ... and once again, like the roads you discussed earlier in KwaZulu-Natal, and I really need to encourage you to come to the province because the reality in the RTI in KwaZulu-Natal is that there are reports that they are understaffed, underpaid and unable to claim overtime. As a result, we seldom see them on the roads in the evening. There is also a reality, Minister, as there are no breathalyser devices in KwaZulu-Natal. None at all. So, it is very difficult to shut down drinking and driving. So, the question that I have for you is: Will you admit that certainly the RTI and transport in KwaZulu-Natal is lawless, that the provincial department has failed, and that it is time for the MEC to resign or do you think it is just a better idea that
you hand over to a DA government who actually know how to run transport? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, I think the question is politicking. I don’t appoint MECs, and I think the MEC that we have in KwaZulu-Natal is new, and I don’t think it is fair to say at this moment that he is doing well or not.
MEC Hlomuka is new. As a matter of fact, I was with him during the Easter weekend, and he was also in other parts of KwaZulu- Natal ensuring that the road safety programme is being implemented. I think we can strengthen that in the province because historically KwaZulu-Natal was one of the province that was very strong on law enforcement. I would drive from Mpumalanga when I go to Volksrust. I will stop and check everything about my car because I knew that there are traffic officers who will stop me. And indeed they will be there. I think we can improve and we can do better. I think that’s what went into many people’s minds. We can still do it even today. They will be there as a matter of fact. I think knowing ... because I drive in KwaZulu-Natal. If you drive past Ladysmith, there will be traffic officers. They will be doing their good work. They don’t take any bribes; they issue notices as they are supposed to do. That also will happen at the Estcourt
bridge under Loskop road. They will be there again doing their work. Sometimes day and night, and if you proceed along the road, before you reach Mooiriver, you are likely to find others. So, yes, there is some good work that is happening, but I think we can improve. Our take is that we actually declare traffic policing an essential service so that we can then have 24/7 services in this regard. We are discussing this and negotiating even with everybody, including the unions. We believe, if on the roads people die, then surely the services that have to prevent and protect people on the roads are supposed to be an essential service. That is what we think we should achieve as soon as possible. Of course resources are required. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, with the subject of the question being the presence and the efficacy of the RTI, are there any measures or prescripts in place to ensure that these officials need to comply with to ensure their mental and physical health throughout the duration of their employment? How often are they assessed to ensure that they are both mentally and physically fit to perform their duties? If not, what are the relevant details?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, I think I am finding it difficult to hear the exact question from hon Du Toit. If it is about members of the traffic policing being fit and proper, we think they are. Remember, when they are trained, they have to meet the requirements. Their requirements and criteria are not just criteria that are set by anybody, but it is in the legislation, for instance, the issue of age, that it should be a person who is under 35- years-old. That of course we have to recruit and people must be fit and proper. You will know that sometimes people will exercise, they will run, and do this or that before they are taken. That is happening indeed.
With the new curriculum that we are rolling out, which is NQF Level 6 curriculum, we believe that we might actually be training people that are much better prepared to do the work. We are hoping that they will also not be tempted to take anything, whether it is called tea or whatever, they will not be tempted to do that. We think the three-year training will give us a better cadre of traffic officers that will do their work with honesty and integrity, but who will be fit for purpose. We think we are going to have that.
I am not very sure, House Chair, I am struggling to hear these questions. As a result, I am not very sure that when I respond to his question, I am responding to the question. I just hear one word, and I take it that it is probably about the question. I apologize if I am not responding to his question properly.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Du Toit!
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, if the Minister is struggling to hear, I can repeat this in English again or Afrikaans or I can try Fanakalore. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Or come to the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Du Toit, the Minister got your question properly.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe womnyango, kuyangijabulisa ukuthi ukushayele KwaZulu-Natal futhi ngempela
amaphoyisa omgwaqo kule mizila oyishoyo abonakala emaningi futhi ewenza umsebenzi wawo. Angiqondile ukuthi ngizwakale sengathi imibuzo yami yonke isekelwe emalolini kodwa isivinini amaloli ahamba ngaso KwaZulu-Natal kubonakala sengathi kuzomele ukuthi umnyango wakho ukubhekisise ukuthi wehliswa kanjani lo mkhawulo wejubane labo ababonakala begijima ngalo nakhoke nje ukuthi phela amaloli maningi.
Mhlawumbe umangase uNgqongqoshe asitshele kule Ndlu ukuthi yiziphi mhlawumbe izinto angazenza ukuthi lezi zincomo esizenzayo akwazi ukuthi azisheshise asinikeze mhlawumbe izikhathi esimisiwe salokho. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga mhlonishwa uLuthuli, okunye kuyenzeka vele, siyaba nawo amaphoyisa omgwaqo ama emigwaqeni ahlole isivinini futhi leso sivinini kungaba ngeseloli kungaba ngesemoto encane. Futhi uma sibuka emigwaqeni yethu kunemikhawulo yejubane. Ngakhoke yebo ayabakhona amaphoyisa omgwaqo akwenzayo lokho. Kodwa njengoba ngisho, ngeke kuma-kilometre ayishumi njengamanje sibe nephoyisa lomgwaqo. Yingakho kokunye sisebenzisana ngisho nezinkampani ezikhona ikakhulukazi ezamaloli.
Ngikhuluma ngezinkampani eziseNingizimu Afrika esizaziyo nezinhlangano esizaziyo esihlalayo nazo sizicele ukuthi nazo aziqinisekise ukuthi abashayeli bazo uma bephuma, okokuqala, bayakwazi ukushayela. Okwesibili, bayawazi umkhawulo wejubane futhi okwesithathu, bayakwazi ukubuka isimo esisemgwaqeni okungukuthi sithi hlisa isivinini noma ngabe kuthiwa umkhawulo wejubane lakho sithi shayela ngo-60km kodwa isimo uma sithi yehlisa kufanele ukwenze lokho. Ngiyavuma kufanele ukhathazeke ngoba usuka KwaZulu-Natal ngamaloli ngoba maningi, name ngiyakuvuma lokho. Noma ukhuluma ngo-N2 oya e-Richards Bay, maningi amaloli ahamba lapho ehambisa amalahle. Noma ukhuluma ngawo eya eThekwini, esuka eThekwini ehamba eya e-Gauteng, maningi. Futhi iqiniso ukuthi uma iTheku njengoba sifisa ukuthi kwenzeke kuthuthuke izinkonzo zalo khona sifuna vele ukuthi amazwe alethe izimpahla eThekwini. Kusho ukuthi izimpahla ekufanele zihanjiswe kulowo muhubhe ikakhulukazi zizokwanda kakhulu.
Lokho vele kusho yona le ebesiqale kuyo ukuthi kufanele sihambe ngokushesha ekutheni izitimela zisuse izimpahla ekufanele zingabi bikho emigwaqeni zingene ezitimeleni. Amalahle asuke emgwaqeni angene ezitimeleni. Lokho ngiyavumelana, kufanele vele kube nokukhathazeka. Kahlehle
akukhona ukukhathazeka kwakho kuphela, kuwukukhathazeka kwethu nathi kuMnyango Wezokuthutha ...
English:
... because our state-owned company, Sanral, which is still doing some good job, if nothing is done about that, it may impact negatively on it because it may not necessarily have all the money. It is expensive to construct the Sanral roads. The constructions that are happening, for instance, between Pietermaritzburg and Durban right now as we speak run into billions of rands, not anything less than R19 billion, and not starting that road from scratch but to ensure that it is upgraded, maintained, to carry, and that some lanes are added. We will not be in a position to continue adding lanes. Yes, I agree with you that we have to act, and act now. We can’t delay. It is necessary that it happens. That’s why we are engaging our counterparts in Transnet to say ensure that at least because we have enough evidence that even with the rail infrastructure as it is now, you can increase the number of trains. Let’s just do that, and then of course revitalize and modernize that corridor. Thank you very much, House Chair
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, House Chair Nyambi for the opportunity and also let me express my gratitude to the Minister for the manner in which she has responded. Hon Minister, except for the deployment of traffic law officials, what else does the department do to curb accidents in the accident prone areas? Are there any public awareness campaigns? Are there any engagements with critical stakeholders to ensure that we bring hope to the road users and commuters that indeed, as the ANC-led government, there is work that we are doing? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon House Chairperson, it is true that we do awareness campaigns. We go to schools. Wherever we go when we are having events as the Department of Transport for whatever nature, it could be when you are attending an aviation event, we bring the issue of road safety as well.
Yes, we are working together with schools and the private sector, for example, Distell has come on board with us. We actually spread the gospel of not drinking and driving. We have other private sector companies that are working with us. They allow us to go to their garages, for instance, along the main routes so that we stop whoever who is buying on those garages and talk to them. So, there is quite a lot that we are
doing in as far as that is concerned. Of course, like I said, we would want to see the traffic policing being declared an essential service so that we can have those 24/7, that is during day and night. After all is said and done, we still have to enforce the law so that people know that when they don’t behave on the road, they will be found and there will be consequences.
We are also trying to introduce issue of technology in dealing with road safety so that these messages are sent out. We are talking to other modes of transport, for instance, that when you are in an aircraft and you are about to leave the aircraft, the message that says ...
IsiZulu:
... Sawubona. Uhambe kahle.
English:
It immediately also says, now you’ll be a road user, and please make sure that now you abide by the rules of the road. So, there is quite a lot that we are trying to introduce, but what is important is for the people of South Africa to work together with us, because if we do it alone, we will not win
this war. The fact of the matter is that any South African who drives on the road has undergone training to drive, wrote an examination and given a certificate in the form of a driver’s licence. It is only then that you are set to go and drive.
Therefore, we can’t say somebody who is on the road and driving does not know what to do on the road. I am not talking about people who probably might buy driver’s licence but I am talking about what is happening on our roads. We are begging again that we continue all of us - even members who are here - to preach the gospel of road safety wherever we go, in our churches and everywhere. We and our children ... particularly because in South Africa the statistics is telling us that people who are dying are young boys, who many of them are from institutions of higher learning, who are fortunate enough to get employment, who are breadwinners, are able to buy a car, and die on the early mornings of Saturday coming from whatever they were doing during the night. A family or a mother who for the first time got R5000,00 from this son, will now have to bury the son. It is a message for all of us to our children first, to our communities, and neighbours to say thank you very much. We congratulate you for the ca, but remember you are not the only who has a car on the road, there are about
13 million cars on the road in South Africa and so many
drivers. You are joining those. Therefore, please, abide by the rules of the road. So, yes, this is the message that we are sending out. Thank you, House Chair.
Question 80:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, the question is programme to repair potholes. I just want to state, Chairperson, that the road needs study of 2010 revealed that the provincial road network has reached its design life and in fact, it is developing different networks failures, including potholes. I am talking about the road network in South Africa.
Between 2011 and 2012 a road construction summit was convened to address the issues identified by that study. Afterwards, there was a need to identify fund dedicated for the maintenance of the provincial roads called ‘S’hamba Sonke’. To this end, the Department of Transport has since invested more than R100 billion to rehabilitate provincial roads, including potholes eradication. My predecessor, Minister Fikile Mbalula, actually had to upscale the refurbishment and potholes eradication programme that was launched on 8 August 2022. As a sector the country has to date through a consented effort by the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, Sanral, and provinces
closed about 1,2 million potholes. Within the limited funding at our disposal the PRMG, which is Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant, cannot address all the challenges of failures of the aging road network and its potholes. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon House Chairperson ...
Sepedi:
Ke boe gape ke leboge ...
English:
...for your response to my question. Hon Minister, please highlight some of the successes of the ‘Vala Zonke’ Pothole- Fixing Programme. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I must indicate, Chair, that our roads are in a bad state some of them. But following the launch of the programme on 8 August as I have mentioned last year amongst some of the noticeable successes of the programme are the following: The development of the close working relationship by national department with provinces and municipalities to address the poor state of roads in the
country. The profiling of the road network and of course bringing together of various road authorities to work in a harmonious and harmonised way. Development of centralised platform for members of the public road users to report potholes through the mobile APP, which we actually established and therefore, members of the public when they see a pothole those who have actually downloaded this APP they then give us the information and the location. And where we are able to locate the pothole, we then send that information to the road authority.
Work is in progress to verify and upload the road network data and of course, we are hoping that we are going to have this done as quickly as possible. The ‘Vala Zonke’ approach to potholes is fostering collaboration across all spheres of government and coordinating of expertise and resources to fill all potholes by creating a well-engineered sort of approach.
And I think this is what we have achieved through that strengthened enlightened approach in closing of the potholes. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, we often see that when a pothole is repaired that at the first heat of rain it opens up again.
I would like to know under what conditions does the department determine that potholes or road raptors require full road resurfacing instead of a filling in the pothole. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: It is true, hon Hadebe, that in fact even yourself you can see a properly patched pothole. If it is just around you will tell me. It means it is not properly patched pothole. If it is just around you they will tell me. It means it’s not properly patched. It has got to be cut properly and then filled properly. That is if you close the pothole. That’s what they have taught me.
So, even yourself as an ordinary member if you are not an engineer you can always say that this pothole definitely first rains it’s going to be washed away. Just by the shape they say. That’s what they have taught me. That’s that.
But also, I must indicate that, yes, some of the roads you can’t even patch them. Their state is such that you need just to remove everything and start from scratch. That requires money. The problem of course like I have said is if you construct the road but you don’t have budget for the maintenance of that very road. Then of course it doesn’t live
its life. It gets eroded easily. It develops potholes easily and if you don’t act well on time because I am told a pothole is a symptom of a problem. If you don’t act on time, then of course the following is that that road will require more resources and that’s where we are.
But let me just mention that our road network in South Africa is 750 000 kilometers. That puts us at number 10 in the world and if you look at the countries that are ahead of us are big economies. You are going to talk about your US, your India, your China, your Brazil, your Russia, they follow that shape, your France, your Canada, your Australia, your Mexico and at number 10 is South Africa.
If you look at the next country after South Africa in the continent is Nigeria at 195 000. That’s almost equal to our paved network because our paved network today we are at
159 000 kilometers. The country as big as Nigeria is at
859 000 kilometers. So, if you were to take 859 000 kilometers to Nigeria almost all their roads will be paved. It’s not like that in South Africa. So, yes, we have got a long road network. We are not going to wake up the following day and have all our roads paved. Of course, we would want to have all
our roads in a good state particularly those that are paved and properly maintained. But we only have R13 billion for this financial year spread to nine provinces. Its not for one province, spread to nine provinces. And those nine provinces each one of them has to attend to its network. Some its paved. Others, paved as they are they require maintenance. They require rehabilitations. Others, graveled as they are they also require maintenance.
We also have been told about at least a durable materials called Nano and we are testing that on gravel roads. We hope that it’s going to assist us to have even if it is gravel road but those roads to be durable so that they can live longer than what is happening but also in a good state of life.
We are not going to wake up and have all our roads paved. It is a matter of fact, only 21% of our roads are paved. That’s are tarred black top. The rest 79 is gravel road. It’s not South Africa alone even the countries that I have mentioned 6,8 000 000 kilometers, 2,5 is gravel. I am talking about big
economies; 2,5 000 000 kilometers is grave.
We are trying our level best being a developing country. I fully agree with you we have to maintain our roads. We have got to close potholes. We have got to make them and our people when they don’t have water, they must not burn our roads. It should not be known that if you drive along Witbank when there is no water in the township and N4 will be bent and be dark.
It can’t be correct because that is too costly. Roads are very costly. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Minister, one of the many frustrations that motorists faced on South Africa own roads is the danger of potholes, which often leave to deadly crashes. Yet, this department has been slow in providing long term solutions on foxing potholes as well as we have not seen much progress even with the ‘Vala Zonke’ Programme launched last year. When can residents of Limpopo expect proper and safer roads in Limpopo province and how often will the Minister inspect the work done on fixing potholes? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Limpopo province has paved and gravel roads and I think because they have an entity that is responsible for the road maintenance, if you look at the kilometers in terms of the paved roads there is some
improvement not where they supposed to be but there is some improvement.
But when you look on the gravel roads in Limpopo they atre indeed in a bad shape. And that is exactly what we think we need to attend to. There will be gravel roads that probably can be paved. But there will be gravel roads that will not be paved because of the resources that they have like I have said is R13 billion that has to be shared to the nine provinces of South Africa. So, Limpopo is not going to get anything less than a R1 billion even less than R1 billion, for instance, for this financial year. Is it enough for the road network that the province is having? Not at all. But of course, at least Limpopo is budgeting from its equitable share some money for road maintenance. But even that combined is it enough and adequate for the roads in Limpopo? Definitely no.
However, I fully agree with you, we have got to ensure that we patch potholes. We have got to ensure that where possible we maintain roads. We have got to ensure that our gravel roads that we cannot pave at the moment but they too are maintained because some of the paved we are talking about are provincial, major roads that are connecting towns, connecting big human
settlements to towns, connecting people to heritage sites. So, there are major roads that if properly maintained can contribute in the economic growth of that province and that part of the country.
Yes, I fully agree with you. However, we don’t have enough and adequate resources. If we were to have them, believe you me, the following day we would have 100% of our roads paved. We don’t have the resources. You pave it unfortunately even after paving it. Even the work that we are doing on our national road, we still have to have a budget for maintenance. So, its maintenance, its construction and gravel road. With the money I am talking about even if the R13 billion was meant for one province it will still not be enough.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Minister, any properly qualified engineer will tell you that the resurfacing of roads is vital to prolong the lifespan to prevent potholes. The Free State government won’t know this because they only have one properly qualified engineer. I exposed this recently.
Now the official data available shows that in 1994 in the Free State the budget for resurfacing and re-gravelling immediately
plummeted when the ANC took over and in a state of unrealistically low for the last 29 years under the ANC.
Hon Dangor today reminded us earlier that we are not a federal state. So, you can’t only blame the provinces without the national government.
Can you as Minister please tell us how has this the severe cutting of the budget for resurfacing roads over the last 30 years? How has this happened under the watch of the ANC? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The advantage that the government before 1994 had is that all the budget was meant for some people. So, all that they needed was just to ensure that there are roads in Bloemfontein and nothing in the townships.
I just want to remind you in Botshabelo there will be nothing. It will be just gravel roads. I just want to remind South Africans that we had one International Boxer in South Africa called Dingaan Thobela. He would go around and say I am the
rose of Soweto. I come from the dusty streets of Soweto. He will say that because Soweto as it was. The township Botshabelo township as it was it was graveled. So, you are talking about the budget. It was meant for you, sir. Never for me. I never drove on a gravel road in my area. It was not meant for me.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: So, you didn’t use the provincial road, Minister?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: ... [Inaudible.] ...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: You never use the provincial road before 1994?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The fact of the matter ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order! Order! Hon Michalakis? Hon Minister? Hon Minister? Hon Minister? Hon Michalakis, you were respectfully allowed to raise your question. Now let’s allow the Minister to respond.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The fact of the matter is that we are balancing needs. You paid nothing for me for my education. This government is paying for all children in South Africa.
So, it was possible for you to have as much budget as you really needed because it was meant for you and your children. Despite all that you still have your leader who is a Grade 12 with all the chances that he had to go to school and get whatever qualifications. That is a fact. You still have a white leader who is a Grade 12. I have a Grade 12 despite the difficult that I had and money that was not allocated for my education.
So, we are balancing needs as this government, remember that. So, it is not only about roads. It’s not only about it. It’s about schooling, is about food, is about children, is about clinics, is about everything for everybody. That’s what we are doing as this government. Thank you very much, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members as we ... Hon members order. As we allow the hon Minister of Transport to take her beautiful seat ... Order, members. Order, members. Hon members, two quick things. The first one, hon Minister Chikunga, Minister of Transport, on behalf of Ntate Masondo
and Mam Lucas, the leadership of the NCOP, we would like to thank you for availing yourself to take this important session question. You were physical in the platform. One cannot take that for granted. That’s what we encourage for members of the Cabinet and thank you for coming and taking questions.
The second issue hon members ... Can you listen carefully. The second issue, I am not going to be inviting some hands or discussion. Discussion will be organised by Whippery then taken to Ntate Masondo and the Deputy Chair as leadership of the institution but there is no transmatch.
When we organised for the Economic Cluster it was supposed to be Electricity, Tourism and Transport, three departments. But for unforeseeable circumstances that are beyond the control of the other Ministers she thought she is going to be on the earlier slot.
Today, there is Tourism in Durban. So, the Tourism indaba is in Durban. So, the plan had to come earlier so that she can have the later engagement. So, for that reason it’s impossible to have the session. But because she had all the responses written it will be us deciding whether we reschedule or we are
going to rely on whatever best way to handle the situation. But that makes now to take this opportunity to thank all Ministers, MECs, special delegates, councilors present even on virtual platform and hon delegates. That concludes the business of the day. The Council is adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 17:56.
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