Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 04 May 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
THURSDAY, 4 MAY 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES HYBRID
Watch video here: Plenary (Hybrid)
The House met at 14:03.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The Chairperson announced that the hybrid sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY ECONOMICS
Cluster 4B
Question 48:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thank you, hon Chair and all on the Deputy Chief Whip of the NCOP as well as Deputy Minister and all members of the NCOP. Our reply to this question is: We wish to confirm that the Department of
Public Works is currently collaborating with all departments, specifically the Department of Defence, the Department of Home Affairs, including the Border Management Authority and the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development to finalise a multiparty memorandum of agreement that will support a synergised approach towards the integrated border management solution.
This will be aligned through mandated roles and responsibilities in terms of the governing legislation, in Particular, the Defence Act. The Department of Defence is the one that is responsible of securing and patrolling our borders. Therefore, we are, of course, aligning the work and the co-ordination in this regard. I must also haste in to report that during this financial year, we are going also to renovate and improve services in all points of entry in our country, especially the Beit Bridge, the one linking KwaZulu- Natal and Mozambique, the one linking South Africa and Lesotho. Therefore, the question of ensuring reliable and safe infrastructure on the South African borders is the work we are undertaking with speed and we recognise the agency of this task at hand. Thank you Chair.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: National chair and special were offense to the Minister for his Maiden appearance in this section of Parliament in terms of question and answer session. Hon Minister, thank you also for responding well to the question post. However according to the media reports, Beit Bridge border post is one of the most critical entry points for illegal immigrants into South Africa, against the backdrop of the failed border fence during the lockdown.
What other measures or plans are in place for future strengthening of security infrastructure at that border to mitigate against the crossing of goods and people? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks, hon Mmoiemang for the follow-up question the position and future plans on the development of sustainable and reliable security infrastructure a on South African borders as I've said it's the work we are undertaking cognizant that the Department's degree is the responsible arm in the implementation of infrastructure development there is an integrated plan by the government in terms of provision of reliable infrastructure and ensuring that we provide a quality infrastructure that is fit for peoples it is for that reason that we have taken a view that the Department of Defence as a lead Department should lead us in terms of identifying the kind of offense that is needed if they need fence I must say seem to report that we cannot fence the whole of the borders but we will fence those areas that the Department of Defence will identify that they cannot be a patrol but in terms of Border management there is the Border Management Authority that was established by the department of Home Affairs and it is the one that is in is an integrated arm composed of SAPS, the SANDF, Sars, Home Affairs and all of them are working together with the Department Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development.
So this came into being, the agents came into being on the first of April and we have had an engagement with them, especially at the Beit Bridge for a post. The services that we are now providing, we want to ensure that we introduce what we call the total facility management, so that the standard in our border post will be effectively efficient. The people must have all facilities including offices where department works they should be in proper conditions but also people who are commuting those who are traveling must be assisted with speed and therefore the service must be at a good level like what you see when you go to airports and that’s what we will be moving towards achieving. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Minister, the Border Management Agency falls under the Department of Home Affairs. Given the woeful state of despair of most Home Affairs athletes in South Africa: How can South Africans have any faith in your department in implementing the infrastructure required to secure the borders of our sovereign Republic, especially as the last effort by your predecessor resulted in the glorified washing line at a cost of R40 million? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Chair, I think the first is the approach we are taking while taking an approach that once we are given a project, we assign one entity that will ensure the development of that. What has been one of the weaknesses in the department when we undertake your construction project, you will find that there will be separate and it is doing different things. That led to a prolonged period and lack of proper Services what we are going to be doing now is to introduce some kind of a 10 key process, where one operator comes in. That operator can bring other people to assist, but ensure that the work is finished on time is quality and within budget. We are serious on that and we are going to prove. I must say that Home Affairs is one of our client departments and we know that they have been complaining that not only on border posts, but even in some offices, the infrastructure and services are not at a required level. We have not disputed that, and that is why we are engaging with them to get detailed specifications and deliver at a level that is expected. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair, through you, hon Minister, It is really good news to hear that the infrastructure will be attended to, but what we want to know is: What are the timelines that are attached to this?
Obviously it won’t be done overnight, but what we have seen in the country is that government has been starting to stop loadshedding since 2008 until 2023. It hasn’t been addressed to its fullest capacity. Also, once the necessary repairs and upgrades has been done to this critical infrastructure: What timelines will be attached to ensuring that it is being kept and maintained on a regular basis? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thank you Chair. The timelines will be dependent on each project for instead let's take the case of Beit Bridge once the Department of Defence tells us that this is the scope this is the kind of offense we need we will then be able to see in terms of project management will implement this project within six months or a year and we're going to ensure that speed on implementation is what we first track. We have committed to ensure that we deliver on time within budget and quality should not be that we deliver things that are not reliable you will also know hon member that some of our entities deals with the compliance in terms of the standard of a construction material. So, we would want to know that when there is a guarantee when there is a guarantee that this infrastructure whether it is an office or it is what if it is guaranteed for
20 years it must live for that 20 years not less so quality timelines at determining effects on our process thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, South African border posts are well known to be notorious for their slow processing times as a result of overburdened infrastructure staff shortages and inefficient technology: In which ways will the proposed infrastructure assist in managing our current borders more efficiently; and how are you going to make sure that SPD staff component is allocated to all these border posts? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks. As I have indicated that in all projects we are now assigning project managers who are going to ensure that they are handling the project from the start to the end without delay we have already reviewed the way we have been working and each project will have an overall person who will be in charge of that and intervening on time but secondly as I've indicated in terms of the quality of uh equipment that should be used it will be prescribed by the user department because what we provide should be compliant to what the user department will want if they need a facility that will among others accommodate software or any kind of equipment we should prepare for such facility and we are ready for doing that while I want to while I want to agree with the question that in terms of the previous years, our border post have not been on good standards but I also want to assure this house that we are going to turn around that situation and we are going to do it with speed and we're going to do it for the South Africans to have access and speed the services in our border post thank you very much.
Question 59:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Chair,
the issue of facilities such as police stations is quite important to us. Firstly, we should accept that all police stations should be at a higher level and good standard because they provide one support to the Department of Police Service. Secondly, they should also be able to cater for services that people need. Our work in ensuring that SA Police Service, including the Department of Justice which uses magistrates get proper infrastructure.
The property in question when it comes into a specific question about Amanzimntoti, we can say that the department is the custodian of the national development of the infrastructure, holistically. The property was allocated to two user departments which is the SA Police Service and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. The client department allocated to that, have not formally returned to indicate that they have a problem with the police station in Emanzimtoti. As per allocation, the client is
responsible for safeguarding and protecting this infrastructure unless it is brought back to us.
We will be engaging with the client on the future of the property in question and if it needs be, as the department, we will take over the custodianship or the maintenance of this building. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chair, I have visited quite a number of the police stations and my experience is that half of the generators at the police stations do not work and they do not get service by your department. This is a real problem and I think you are aware of it. But also the police spent hundreds of millions of rand, from their own budget which they should use to prevent crime, on actually buying diesel for these generators. This is a slippery slope but also like the rest of us, they are completely in the dark sometimes what to what the department is doing especially once load shedding kicks in. I have recently visited a police station in Mpumalanga Hermann in my constituency where it is a satellite police station. The real police station is 10 kilometres away but with these satellite stations, the police are not willing to set one or
two police officers at that satellite police station in the evening, in the dark on their own.
So, the consequence is that these satellites get closed and the community has to travel 10 kilometres away to the nearest police station. These are all things that fall within your control of your department. So, I firstly, want you take note of the problem. If you are not aware of it but I think you are. But my question is, has any effort been made to get police stations off the grid or at least partially by installing some form of solar power or inverters? I know it is going to cost a lot but it is going to cost less than what you are paying for diesel and for generators. So, if not, why have you not done this? If so, why is it such slow process? Surely, with regards to the police stations and so forth, they should be prioritized. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Well, thanks, indeed, the hon member is correct that these facilities such as police stations, hospitals and clinics should be a priority. You might have not noticed that we have issued the request for expression of interest for those who want to assist the government on providing alternative energy to our government buildings. This is going to take place shortly and it will cover all the buildings of government where we are going to install alternative forms either in a form of solar or any other form.
So, what you are suggesting is what we are implementing and we will be rolling it out this year so that it is fully implemented. The second part is maintenance. You find that once the department works or take over the building, they do not maintain. We are in engagements with Treasury to ensure that we set aside allocation for maintenance so that we are able to maintain all facilities to ensure that they are at a good standard and they are always able to provide the necessary service that is expected for South Africans.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Minister, the police stations that are not properly maintained have a direct impact on the safety and security of our people. Is the Minister aware that there are police stations, like in Paul Rooss in the Free State which have to work in the dark during load shedding as their generator is not working because it is not maintained? What have you done with that? If so, which time frames have been put in place to repair all generators and which maintenance
programme has been initiated to manage maintenance? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: I think this
question has been already answered however, I will repeat it. We are aware of the plight of the police because we must appreciate that SA Police Service members deserve to work in proper conditions that enable them to do their work. Now, I have said that we are going to be installing forms of energy either through solar or battery or whatever that is fit for the purpose of our police stations. So, that was the first answer and hon member I believe you would have heard if you were listening. The issue of maintenance is being solved with the Treasury so that we will have allocation reserved only for maintenance.
We call on all communities to protect all government buildings because once government facilities are allocated to communities, they do not necessarily belong to government but belong to the community as the people of South Africa.
Mr M DANGOR: Hon Minister, as the standard procedure of the Department of Public Works only acts on the basis of
infrastructure needs, plans and budget by client departments, what is the situation in this regard in terms of the allocation of the SA Police Service and the infrastructure needs to address the infrastructure needs backlogs in police stations across the country? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: This is true
that Government Immovable Asset Management Act t 19 of 2007 mandates the Department of Public Work to oversee the development of all government properties. That includes ensuring that they are properly maintained. The budget depends on the client department because we cannot do work without the department telling us what to do. So, it depends on the project by project. To be precise, to the hon member, about
122 police stations are at a procurement stage now for construction, repair or renovations.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, I would like to know what does load shedding have on the functionality of the police buildings especially the ones that are responsible for processing criminal identities and biometrics. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: In relation
to the identification of criminals, I think that is the aspect better placed for SA Police Service. Safe to say, the impact of load shedding is across. Once there is a load shedding in a city, it affects all buildings and services. That is why we are ensuring that we attend to it with speed. I applaud the members of the Council to pay much time on the issue of load shedding but I am sure that, in fact, all of you are well aware that His Excellency President Ramaphosa is making strides to address to address the issue of load shedding with various options whether you talk of ensuring that we build the capacity of the current existing stations, focus on renewables and focus on alternative forms such a solar. So, that is the work – But as I have said for government buildings which we are responsible for, we are embarking on the programme of installing facilities or energy solutions.
It is not just energy alone. It is energy and water as well as recycling solutions so that we provide a comprehensive service to the people.
Question 49:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRUSTRUCTURE: Thank you,
hon Chairperson. The disciplinary hearings relating to the Minister’s advisor and then director-general, DG, were managed by the Presidency and the former Minister. And with regards to the DG, he has since retired from the public service. We are unable to follow him with disciplinary actions but, we believe that the state’s law enforcement will be able to follow on the case if there are criminal elements that pertains to his conduct and participation in this project.
With regards to the former Minister’s advisor, she is no longer in the employ of the department. The hearings for three senior officials is ongoing. However, this has been affected by prolonged postponements and legal challenges to the report and the proceedings. Nevertheless, we are committed to ensure that we deal with this matter.
The disciplinary hearings against the National Bid Adjudication Committee officials was concluded. All the charged members were found guilty and sanctions or final warning, written warning, and suspension without pay have been imposed by the chair of the disciplinary process. A suspension
without pay sanction were served during the period of November 2022 to January of this year.
The hearings of the two other senior members were held on the 30th of March 2023 and are still ongoing. The delays are due to high court application for the review of the report, which was extended by the two officials in this regard. I must say that the hearing of one executive manager was postponed until the hearing at the court is finalized. As the department, we have since filed an application for the review of the ruling on the issue of the postponement so that the case takes place as soon as possible. Thank you.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Thank you, hon Chairperson.
IsiZulu:
Mangibonge Ngqongqoshe ohloniphekile impendulo yakho.
English:
Hon Minister, your effort in recovering the loss of public funds through these corrupt dealings is really appreciated. What steps is the department going to take to address
potential gaps in the internal procurement processes to ensure that we don’t have future recurrence of this?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Chair, I
think the first part is with regard to the Beit bridge case, which through the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, the matter was taken to the tribunal court, and it was ruled that the companies involved should pay back the money, which is about R14 to R16 million. So, we are in that process. The two companies involved are trying to appeal that ruling, but we are also opposing their appeal. We are doing so because we believe that that will set an example that people should not inflate prices and they should not act corruptly.
But in terms of proactive measures as we go forward, one of the things that we would want to undertake is that there is an OnPoint Audit, so, we build our internal audit capacity to ensure that when the procurement is taking place, the internal auditing unit is also following all steps and ensure that at the end, all risks are addressed. So that is the proactive measure that we are going to put in place.
Continuous trainings for our officials will also be done. But also those projects that are of high level will have to be prioritized so that they are audited before even the commencement of construction without causing delay on projects.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, what steps have been taken by your departments to ensure that the disciplinary process and inquiries is not delayed any further that might result in illegal or unnecessary legal fees and delayed justice? If you can elaborate on that, please? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks,
though, I have answered that. The hearings get postponed and delayed by the very same officials, because they would want to defend themselves in this case. Firstly, they are trying to delay it by challenging the report, which have been subjected to appeal. But also they would always put a number of reasons to delay disciplinary processes. And in this case, we are trying to ensure that the disciplinary process is expedited by ensuring that the chairperson and the prosecutors are hands-on and are given tight control of cases. So, we are going to
ensure that all disciplinary cases are expedited and handled with absolute resolute so that they are also finalized within the short space of time. This affects and causes instability in the department to have people who are either suspended for a longer time or who are facing disciplinary actions. That’s why disciplinary actions must be quick and finalized within a reasonable period. Thank you.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, you started off with your response and the first few examples that you listed, the retired person, they no longer with the department and the delay after delay ... [Inaudible.] ... officials who involve themselves in nefarious activities. They didn’t jump ship when they were found out. In this case, the primary person involved in the Beit bridge “washing line” farce was Minister De Lille protégé Melissa Whitehead. The Auditor-General has reported that there is no evidence that any disciplinary action has been taken against her. Whitehead has since left the Public Service, same as you said at the beginning. That they have either retired, they no longer in the department or it is the delays, delays and more delays.
What efforts is this department doing and what are you involved with to pursue these ex-employees on a civil basis to recover the lost funds, but also make sure that we get to a situation where these individuals are red flagged and not cropping up in other departments and continue with these type of activities that is wasting millions of taxpayer’s funds and it’s going to line their own pockets or advantage friends and families and not to the advantage of the people that should get it, the voters. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: I would
firstly agree that it has been a habit for a number of officials that if they are found wanting in one department, they will then jump the ship and go to other departments.
Unlike in local government, because in local government it’s easy to report that this official was found doing wrong in that municipality. I think that’s what, at a national and provincial level, we must be able to correct and improve. If someone committed crime or corruption in one department, that person must not be allowed to get employment in another department without finalizing the disciplinary process. But I think that is the issue we must take up with the Department of Public Service and Administration.
The second and the specific issue to the former advisor. I don’t remember in the report saying that the former advisor, should be charged, personally not on disciplinary cases, but in terms of paying back the money. If it is, so we will be prepared to launch a civil claim and try to recoup the money. But I think it was those two companies that were said they should pay back what they accrued from that project. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you so much, Chairperson. You will agree with me that the tender process is wasteful. It actually encourages corruptions within the public sector and all the government departments and entities. In your responses, you have mentioned all the steps taken regarding the Beit bridge matter.
What are the measures that your department are willing to put forward in making sure that you do away with this extravagant, tender processes within the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure? And making sure that everybody who has been involved in this saga is brought to book, even if it means they need to be struck off the roll of all those who are going to biding moving forward.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thank you,
Chairperson. I’m not sure whether we can say we will do away with the tender process completely. But I think what we can do, which is what we are doing, is to build the capacity of the state to implement on its own where it can. You will find that there are a number of projects and as a government department, we use our implementing agency which is Independent Development Trust, IDT, as well as Kuga and the Development Bank of South Africa. So as long as those entities also depend on tendering, we will always have these gaps.
As we go forward, we need to consolidate the capacity of the state to implement in some cases. As I have said, for instance, in two areas, we are implementing changes. Let me deal with one, just as an example. When it comes to leasing, government buildings for offices, we are taking a view that we should no longer go out for a tender. Instead, we must ask those who want to invest to invest in renovating our own buildings, repurpose those buildings, maintain and operate for a particular time, and then hand over those buildings to government. Because these are our properties rather than renting from the private sector. That is the approach we are using.
When it comes to maintenance, we are introducing a concept of the total facility management where one contractor would be able to oversee the whole maintenance of a facility. Instead of having one, doing one thing and the other doing another thing. We believe that will save resources. But it will also cut a lot of tenders that are done at a level of government.
It is better if that is between the private sector and not government. Because people have tendency of inflating prices if services are given to government. So, what I can promise is building the capacity of the state to implement, as well as to monitor. But also ensure that there is value for money in whatever project that is undertaken. Thank you very much.
Question 40:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks, hon
Chair. In this question we can indicate that our infrastructure projects take place in communities and redress various social and economic conditions that prevail in various communities. Central to the work of the department is the urgent need to speed up the implementation of infrastructure projects to achieve economic and social transformation. Our programmes contribute in reversing spatial exclusions and lead
to the empowerment of women, youth and other vulnerable groups especially disable people. There are over 60 strategic infrastructure projects that are gazette and they are spread across the length and breadth of our country. Amongst this is the development of the mixed use housing development, the development of our national roads and the development of small harbours which most of them are in rural areas. But the construction of roads such as N2 from KwaZulu-Natal going to the Eastern Cape, that addresses the plight of the people in rural areas.
As the department we are also moving and forging ahead with the implementation of the Welisizwe bridges which are dedicated to cover rural areas. We are building four per province per quarter to ensure that people in rural areas do not suffer when rivers are full. So, we do have a plan and it is in place. It is being implemented to ensure that rural areas also benefit from the infrastructure development programmes.
The Department of Water and Sanitation is working on ensuring that water infrastructure is provided in rural areas as well. Whether you will talk of the uMzimvubu Dam and the best
example is the uMshwathi Dam that has been completed and is providing water to rural communities. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr N M Hadebe: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, recently the annual 5th South Africa Investment Conference was held and investment pledges were made. Are there plans or mechanisms in place to ensure that investments will meet tangible improvement in infrastructures specifically? If not, why not; if so what are the relevant details.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thank you,
Chairperson. Hon Radebe, once the investment conference is concluded, each department examines the list of the pledges made and co-ordinate those that belong to each sector. The Department of Economic Development will co-ordinate investment that relates to economic development. The Department of Public Works and Infrastructure will look on ensuring that all pledges in as far as infrastructure development that would have been made are implemented. This is the mechanism to push private sector and public sector to ensure that there is collaboration and implementation of all projects. Be it in rural areas or urban areas, the speed and the focus is the same. I must say some of the projects may look like they are
in urban areas, but at the end they impact on rural areas as well. We have done a lot to ensure that we cater for rural communities.
In terms of water infrastructure, I think the Minister has been in a number of provinces such as North West and the Eastern Cape in particular to ensure that the issues of water challenges are addressed. So, we are working throughout the country to ensure that key infrastructure is delivered. We do so knowing that the infrastructure development has a multiple effect. Once you build a road or you bring water that will improve services or social conditions of the people. It also attracts others to invest. We take value in ensuring that infrastructure is taken to all areas including rural areas.
The Deputy Minister of Communications is here I am sure he may also allude to the work that the government is doing in the soft infrastructure connectivity even in rural areas. Thank you.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, whenever communities come to government with request they are often met with the same reply. That reply is, there is no
budget. It is a poor reflection therefore that your departments get given budgets, but does not use it effectively. Regrettably, it is not spent for what they received it for. Can you shed some light on the reasons why your predecessor underspent her budget? Also, tell us what you as the new Minister will do to make sure that the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure budget is fully utilised and effectively spent in the next budget cycle. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks,
Chairperson. Maybe it is better to answer for from now going forward. I always approach history as a source of lesson. You learn from history to inform you what you must develop to improve and go forward. So, I do not want to compete with history, but I will draw lessons from history.
What we are going to do going forward, firstly, is to ensure that we have business plans and proper preparations for projects in advance. As you may see most of the departments affected by the spending is that they start the financial year without business plans for everything to be done. Then, they start planning and procuring during the second and the third quarter of the year. Come the last quarter of the year, they
would still be implementing, and maybe at some point without even finalising the procurement stages. It is important that as we have in the pipeline in terms of infrastructure - I have said that we have 122 police stations that are in the procurement stage - be proactive and say by this time the procurement stage must be done. Secondly, the implementation kicks off.
I have also alluded to the point that we have reviewed the project management approach which have been used by the department. Instead of having a single contractor designing and another one doing quantity surveying and all of that, have some form of a 10-key approach and have one single contractor who will bring all these specialities that are required - bring them together and implement.
I must also say that that does not mean that there should be no subcontracts, but subcontracting should not be on specialised skills. That is why we say that this approach, the 10-key implementation framework, is useful. I am sure all of you who have studied construction or property development will agree with me that if you sit the whole project to one contactor and say implement, it is better than managing
different contractors. That is what will expedite the implementation.
We have identified what caused project problems. The problems were caused by disjoined approach within the department. Those who are planning plan their own planning and design, they have their own procurement system and they also procure for one little thing. Now we are saying, if you are constructing, whether it is a hospital, you must just procure once and have one service provider who will oversee the whole project. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A Luthuli: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe womnyango, mina nawe sizovumelana ukuthi ukuze sibone leli lizwe likhula kuzomele ukuthi kubekhona amasu azobekwa ukuze izindawo zasemakhaya nezindawo ezisemadolobheni zibonakala zithola amathuba afanayo, uzovumelana nami ngoba nawe uqhamuka ezindaweni ezisemakhaya ukuthi kunegebe phakathi kwezindawo zasemakhaya nezasemadolobheni esilibona kakhulu.
Ngikuzwile futhi uthi njengoba nje ungena kulo mnyango uzofunda emaphutheni adlule nasendleleni abekade benza ngayo
edlule ukuze uqhubekele phambili kodwa umbuzo wami ubuza ukuthi, uyakubona yini ukuthi esikhathini esidlule lo mnyango ububonakala sengathi uhamba kancane ekwenzeni isiqinisekiso sokuthi alikho lelo gebe engikhuluma ngalo phakathi kwezindawo zasemakhaya nezindawo ezisemadolobheni. Ngiyabonga.
English:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: No, I think,
firstly, ...
IsiZulu:
... umnyango uwuwo angikaze ngingabaze ukuvuma ukuthi kubekhona ukusilela emsebenzini obuwenziwa ...
English:
... and I identified ...
IsiZulu:
... ukuthi yini ebikhanda izinkinga, mhlonishwa uLuthuli.
English:
I then also presented what will be a solution going forward. That solution is to ensure that we build a capacity to project
manage all infrastructure projects and ensure that when we plan, we plan in advance and then undertake the implementation guided by the scope of work, the effective planning and the effective execution, and then monitor the implementation. And also it to ensure that there are consequence management. Where people are not working there should be decisive actions that are taken. Thanks.
Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Minister, you referred to history, and history is important. The history of the spatial development of the apartheid system still exists and informs what we have today. Having said that, part of that history is the spatial separation. I now speak to the question of railways, and in particular railways. When are we going to see and look at repairing some of the railways that have been damaged and vandalised? Do we have a process and a plan to take it forward? I understand hon Nhanha is upset because he comes from the apartheid system. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Thanks. It
is a fact that the spatial planning that is in place still resembles that of the apartheid system, but a big work has been done. Firstly, to ensure that people reside nearby
workplaces. The plans are continuing to ensure that we meet that.
Secondly, there is no place now that is secluded for a particular race. That’s why as a department we have said we are going to release land. This includes land that is in cities including buildings within cities so that people would be able to stay in those areas. I may say we have started in uMsunduzi to release some land. We have done so in Mpumalanga and in North West. The actual hectoring or hectors that have been released can be given to the hon members. It is the work that we are implementing.
I am happy to hear that there are those who are asking, when are we going to do this. We are doing it now. It is just that some of them are not exposed because they still stay on their own. They believe that they must protect their own suburbs for themselves. They don’t travel across and that’s why they would not want to appreciate the development that is starting. In some areas you now have houses including low cost houses within 20km from towns. That was not happening during the apartheid era. Thank you, hon Chair.
Question 61:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Chairperson,
I think the question is whether in light of the recent Deeds Office ... the buildings that the department leases, I'm not sure whether that is question 60 or 61 so that ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s 61!
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Okay! Hon
Chair, just a minute so that I answer the relevant question. Oh yes! Hon Chair, with regard to government employees leasing from the department, the department has an existing registry which details that there are also 43 debtors, which are government employee leases with a total amount owing of just above R3 million. We are working to ensure that all of those who are leasing from the department are also paying. The department continues to ensure that we undertake an audit of government buildings that are leased by anyone and ensure whether it is leased by the employees in the department or externally, those people are able to pay and will follow on that.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chairperson, we understand that the Minister is new to the portfolio and we welcome him into the portfolio but it's quite clear that he's not on top of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure assets, and I'll tell you why. In late February, I directed a question to you relating to the Amanzimtoti Police Station, despite the fact that you're supposed to respond within two weeks, I only got the response today and it was directed towards Hon Michalakis, not myself, but thanks for the answer anyway.
So this confusion now makes us wonder why you were moved to the Department of Public Works in the first place, and so the question I have today is, are you a governance crusader who's going to track down unoccupied properties, like the Amanzimtoti Police Station is, and make sure that people pay rent, or are you just a miniature paper tiger taking instruction from your Taliban bosses in KwaZulu-Natal? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Chairperson,
I don't know what makes the hon member to be so agitated and to be bringing things that are not relevant here, and I think the issue of the police station of Amanzimtoti I did talk to
it and I can repeat if you still want, but I spoke about it. We are undertaking an assessment of all government buildings that are not utilised that we have rented for departments, but departments have not occupied, and we would want to ensure that we deal with those issues within a short period.
If we see that this department requested a property, we secured the property, but they have not taken occupancy, we will solve that with speed and ensure that the property is utilised, but also if properties are damaged, we are put in place measures to ensure that they are also improved. I see that the problem of proactivity is there. Now you only understand that people take orders from somewhere. It is not all of us. It might be you who get orders from your liberals who dictate what you must say and when. Some of us are not in that space, we are able to think and implement, and I must tell you that this question of thinking that either blacks or Africans are not able to read and ensure that things are handled. No, it's not the case. We are the same, black, white, coloured Indians. We are the same. We are all human beings, and no one’s better than the other. I don't take instructions from anyone. I take instructions from the manifesto of the ANC. It is the blueprint that tells us where to go. Thank you.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, Hon Minister, it was reported a while back that in certain cases there were officials that haven't honoured the lease agreements for as long as 18 years. In many instances, these properties were given to family members to stay in for free. Now, my question, hon Minister is, will these individuals be held accountable for the outstanding payments regardless of the amounts and or if they still work for the government or not and how will this be prevented in the future? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Chairperson,
this is quite an important issue. Yes, all of them will be followed, and yes, all of them will have to pay. All actions will have to be taken and on that one, we're not going to compromise. It also includes, if I may allude, those who have illegally sold government properties. We are engaged in a campaign Operation Bring Back and we would want to ensure that all properties of the government are brought back to the government. If you sold it illegally without processes, we're going to find you and we'll bring back that property. So we are going to be decisive in that regard.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe, siyaqonda ukuthi kube khona uphenyo olukade lukhona, ngakhoke umuntu uthanda ukwazi ukuthi ...
English:
... what is the outcome of the countrywide investigation of state-owned properties which was launched over claims that government employees ...
IsiZulu:
... abonakala bengazihloniphi izibopho zabo zezinkontileka zokuqashisa?
English:
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Chairperson,
there was an investigation that identified 43 debtors who are government employees owing the amount of just above
R3 million, and all of them are now subjected to the process to pay back that money, and we are clear on that across the country, we've done that, and that is the process of ensuring
that the government recouped the money that those employees owe to the state.
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and good afternoon to you and good afternoon to the Minister, Deputy Ministers and all hon members, it's good to be back. Hon Minister ... [Interjections.] ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: From where? Where are you coming from?
Mr M I RAYI: I'll tell you when I see you. ... we welcome the fact that when you were made aware of the challenge you immediately ordered the property and asset management unit of the department to conduct a comprehensive analysis on the occupation of the state-owned properties occupied by employees across all the provinces to establish how widespread this problem is in the country. You further committed yourself that once the report is complete, you'll table it in the Ministers and Members of Executive Councils Meeting, Minmec, where all the provinces are represented. I just want to find out whether that has already happened, or if not, what are the timeframes on which this process of analysis will take place. Thank you so much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Thanks, hon
member, and thank you for the question. Yes, it is true that once we were alerted of this challenge, a countrywide investigation was undertaken and we must also say that the commitment to bring the report to the NCOP is still standing. However, we're at the stage of ensuring that the report is finalised properly, but all of those who have to answer are given space to respond, and once we complete that, we will be able to bring the report. Thank you, Chair.
Question 50:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Moshodi
and all members, the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure conducted a condition assessment in 2014-15 financial year. The report revealed that there are some properties that are unlawfully occupied, land is invaded and others are unutilised.
As a result, we have initiated a program called Operation Bring Back. This program will be re-energised and will focus on the following:
Firstly, investigate all unlawful occupation of state-owned properties.
Secondly, recover the lost immovable assets.
Thirdly, regulations of illegally occupied properties with qualifying individuals.
Therefore, we are going to undertake this work going forward, under Operation Bring Back.
We must also add that among others there are those who are occupying land illegally because they want places to reside, but there are others who occupy our properties and others go to an extend of renting them out. And that’s why we are applauding The Hawks, that they are part of this work and they have assisted us a great deal in ensuring that those who either rented out our properties or sold them are prosecuted.
We are working hard to ensure that all illegal occupations are attended to in the country. I thank you, Chair.
Sesotho:
Mof M L MOSHODI: Ke a leboha, Letona, ka ho araba potso eo ke e botsitseng ka bokgabane bo boholo. Modulasetulo, ntumelle ke botse Letona potso ya tlatsetso.
English:
As the hon Minister may be aware, some of these buildings include office space and residential properties.
My follow up question to you, hon Minister, is: Why is government not donating some of these buildings to the community-based organisations, for better use, and auction others to private entities, for future use of their own choice?
Ke a leboha, Modulasetulo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Chair,
maybe in terms of this question I can report that the hon member is correct. Hon Moshodi, we fully concur with you. Firstly, some of these properties could be repurposed and provide other services.
As part of our contribution against gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, we have identified properties in various provinces. In the Eastern Cape there are three properties that are owned by the department. We are in the process of ensuring that between us, national, and Public Works in the province, we work on an agreement to give them so that they will house non-governmental organizations, NGOs, that deal with gender- based violence.
In the Free State there is the Koffiefontein house that was refurbished and handed over to the NGO on the 8th of December 2022.
In KwaZulu-Natal there are two properties, one is in Howick and another one is in Melmoth, and we are working on handing them over to the province so that they would be utilised by the NGOs.
In Limpopo we have five properties that are being renovated so that they would be given over to the provincial Department of Public Works. And the province, working with social development, will use these for the purposes of supporting NGOs.
In Mpumalanga the initial was ten properties that were confirmed by the Department of Social Development. Five of those are in Badplaas and one is in Lydenburg. And, therefore, we are working together to ensure that we accommodate NGOs.
There is one in Northern Cape that is being assessed and it will also be handed over.
In North West one property was identified. But we later established that it is illegally occupied. Whilst we were working on that we got another property which is in the border of Gauteng and North West, which will be given to the NGOs.
The suggestion you are making is quite profound and progressive. We will push to ensure that all government properties are effectively utilised.
In addition, some of the properties will have to be utilised to generate income for government and, therefore, if we identify a property we will be able to call for expression of interest for those who want to either renovate or utilise those buildings. But pay back, pay the government so that we are able also to generate income. Thanks, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, still on the issue of audit of government buildings, I would like to know: Whether your department has already started the process of evicting illegal occupants from government buildings? If so, what is the position in this regard, if there’s any success? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Chair
and Hadebe, yes, we have started the process. It is a matter that you deal with case by case and the lessons differ. In some cases, you will find that you get people who will challenge the process and it has to go to court, it will take time. In some cases, legal process will need us to detail the number of people who are there, possibly their names and all of that, and in some cases it becomes difficult to get the names of those people.
But I can assure the hon member and the House that we are working in fighting illegal occupation of state-owned properties and we are going to do it across the country and ensure that those properties are also utilised effectively.
Hon chair, I must also indicate that, as I’ve alluded before, some of the properties you’ll find that they are not just
occupied by people who are just in need, but it’s people who can afford and it has become some form of business and that’s why we are going to be hard on these cases. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Minister, following the audits: Which processes have been initiated to reclaim hijacked, abandoned and dilapidated buildings, in a way which does not criminalise homeless people who’ll be affected by this process? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Chair, the
member is saying what process are we using to identify illegally occupied properties?
Now, that is illegal. And illegal, once you start and say illegal, it involves criminal activity.
Now, he said the process must also not criminalise them. Well, I think the first thing is just to say an illegal action has been undertaken and then you deal with that. But the way that avoids criminalising those people is co-operation. Because if they co-operate, it’s easy, we don’t through the prolonged processes of court and we’ll be able to say ‘no, you’ve been
using this piece of land for the stay or for this purpose’ then we will be able to have an agreement on that. But if they resist, we have to use legal means and, therefore, ensure that they are taken to court and we then have to go with them challenging and, therefore, they will be criminalised. It is a process that is not dependent on us.
But we must also plead that the issue of land is one of the contentious issues in the country. It is important that we all follow processes and we must not encourage illegal occupation. We must not encourage illegal occupation. As government we must deal with people who occupied properties illegally. So, we need all of us to be together in the same frame of mind on that. Thank you, Chair.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Minister, we’ve touched on this briefly today. And first of all thank you for the good humour in which you took the last question. I think you know just a bit of KwaZulu-Natal jabbing and repartee; anyway.
Chairperson and Minister, this is the problem that we have in Amanzimtoti, it’s a client department, they have a property that they’ve allowed to become unoccupied, as per the answer I
received from you today; and now it’s basically become your problem.
Is it not best practice for your department to, firstly, put client departments on notice, that they are responsible for the securing of the property by a way of security services but also by a way of security measures? And that if your department needs to step in to regularise the situation, as you described, that they must come up with compensation for that to your department?
Are we not really in a situation where client departments like the SA Police Service, SAPS, in Amanzimtoti, have a building, just allowed it to be unoccupied, allowed it to be overthrown, and in this case become a haven for criminals and sex workers and that, and then basically dump in your lap, and should there not be some further responsibility in that regard? And if you agree with me, what measures will you take to heighten that sense of responsibility by client departments to avoid the kind of thing that hon Moshodi has raised? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFTRUSTRUCTURE: Hon Chair
and hon member, I think the first thing is to ensure that the
level service agreement is tight, to ensure that once the department submits a request for a property, that property is well defined and they tell us what kind of property they need, explicitly, and then we deliver on that. And there must be a tight agreement, that once we are done, once we report that we are done they take occupation, and if they don’t take occupation at that time they will start taking full responsibilities, including financial responsibilities such as maintenance and security.
You are quite correct, but in this case, given the engagement and the level service agreement that have been in place, as the department we will engage with SAPS on that property. We will ensure that if they no longer need the property, we take it, so that we are able to allocate it to others who may use it. But, then immediately ensure that it is safeguarded and well-maintained.
It is an embarrassment when government buildings are becoming the nest for all sort of things that you have mentioned. And, therefore, both the agreement between ourselves and the user department needs to specify that kind of responsibilities and mandates.
Lastly, in this specific matter we will ensure that we communicate with SAPS as soon as possible. Thanks, Chair.
Question 42:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Good afternoon, Chairperson of the NCOP, the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, the Chief Whip in absentia, the Minister of Public Works, hon members of this august House and fellow South Africans.
In response to Question 42, I have been advised by the department to respond as follows: Key deliverables of the programme relate to the registration of indigence, distribution and installation of decoders as well as switching off analogue transmitters. Over 1,5 million households have since registered and qualified to receive government’s subsidised decoders. The registration process ended in September last year as published by the notice in the Government Gazette. Those who have registered and qualified are being issued with government decoders which are installed for free.
The conclusion of Broadcast Digital Migration, BDM, is dependent on the switching off of analogue transmitters. Following the review of the BDM model in September 2021, there was significant progress that had led to the analogue switch off in five of the nine provinces which are Free State, Northern Cape, North West, Limpopo and Mpumalanga. Having been successfully switched off and thereby receiving television broadcast on the digital platform only, the Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies is currently finalising consultations with the industry on its submissions regarding analogue switch off. He will thereafter publish a notice in the Government Gazette informing of the final date for the conclusion of what we call dual illumination.
Household migration is underway in the remaining four provinces of KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, Western Cape and Gauteng in order to enable the analogue switch off. I thank you, Chair.
Ms T P MAMOROBELA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, greetings to the House and hon members that are here and our part time delegates. Hon Deputy Minister, based on the experience and lessens from the initial phase of the rollout of the project,
has any risk analysis of the potential delays been undertaken? If not, why not? And if so, what are the plans to mitigate such risks? Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Was it clear? Did you hear clearly?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, I think I did hear what the hon Mamorobela was saying. We have identified the risks and they mainly relate to a number of things. The first is that qualifying households come to the Post Office to register to get their set-top boxes, they get to be approved, and when the installers go to those households they find that the address is either wrong or they have relocated. So, that is one of the risks that is delaying in the finalisation of the installation.
The other risk that is there is that we are utilising Sentech as our installation entity to install the set-top boxes, and because we are rolling out this project throughout the country, you would find that there is a situation where we
don’t have the necessary number of qualified installers to be able to do the installation in a particular province.
Another issue that we have also experienced in the past, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal, we had a situation where after the floods the installers were not able to reach particular households because those households were affected and they had to be relocated. So, those are some of the risks that we have experienced, but we have put measures in place to mitigate these risks. As I was saying, we are only left with four provinces to conclude the analogue switch off. Thank you.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Deputy Chair, thank you to the Deputy Minister, and I am glad that you understood the previous question because I couldn’t understand a word that was said there because the quality of the audio is so terrible. It is time we all come back to this House, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much for the explanation. I am surprised to hear that qualifying households could go to a post office and apply for a digital box because most post offices in the country are currently closed anyway. The fact of the matter is that the switching off of the analogue signal is past the
ANC’s 15 year deadline — 15 years, Deputy Minister. That deadline was set to liberate South Africans from the previous century.
Why is it from analogue to digital? Why do we need digital? We need digital because we need bandwidth. If we have more bandwidth, mobile operators can lower data costs because they have more space to operate within. We need digital so that people can actually watch clear TV screens and get better images. That is to show some respect to South Africans. When will the ANC, the Minister and the ANC-led government actually start showing respect to South Africans by adhering to their own deadlines? Fifteen years? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Maybe let me start with the SA Post Offices, Sapo, that are have been closed. Yes, indeed Sapo is experiencing some difficulties and we are going to deal with that in the next question. However, there are still many offices that are open where members of the community who qualify can go and apply to receive the set-top boxes. Even though the deadline was 15 September last year, most of South Africans did go to post offices and apply to get their set-top
boxes and that is why we have received a large number of applications and we are following on them.
The second part of your question is on the 15 years deadline that has been missed. Indeed your motivation is correct about why there is a need for us to move from analogue TV distribution to digital because it offers a lot of benefits to the country, but there has been a number of delays.
After the International Telecommunication Union, ITU, took the decision that in 2015 all countries that belong to region 1 must migrate from analogue TV distribution to digital, and the entire Africa belongs to region 1. There have been various efforts to migrate but these efforts have been hampered by a number of things, one of which is litigation. In actual fact, even now when we were supposed to have switched off last year we got to receive another litigation which ended up being adjudicated by the Constitutional Court. The Constitutional Court gave some directives to government for which we are complying with all those directive.
So, the delay has largely been through litigation by some of the broadcasters in the sector. Had it been for ourselves we
could have long migrated from analogue to digital. But of course at the initial phase of the migration there were some discussions in the country on the appropriate technology platform to use. You remember the discussion about whether these set-top boxes must have some certain technology, the chip sets and all that. So, that also caused a delay, but we are on course, hon member, I can assure you that the Minister will announce the final date of the switch off which is going to happen very soon. Very soon is an operating word. Very soon the Minister will do that.
There are some consultations, as I said in my main response, that the Minister is conducting particularly with the stakeholders because this is a very litigious environment.
Those consultations have to happen, and once we are satisfied that we have consulted sufficiently, the Minister will then issue a date for a final analogue switch off. We are only left with four provinces and we are wrapping up installations. Very soon we should be ready to switch off.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair, to the Deputy Minister, the country’s broadcasting digital migration process has taken quite a long time without any effort from the sitting
government to speedup this process. There have been countless delays, countless court orders and changing of deadlines to switch off. Which measures have been put in place to make sure that even after the implementation of this project, people living in rural areas are able to access this type of resource just like those living in the urban areas without any disruption? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Indeed there have been delays as I was explaining in response to hon Badenhorst. The delays were not as a result of government inaptitude. As you were saying yourself that there have been court orders after court orders. These court orders have been delaying us to complete the broadcasting digital migration. We are on course to finalise this because we have been delayed.
Part of the reason why we need to be cautious as we are moving forward is so that we don’t get to experience litigation again because of technicalities around consultations and so forth.
That is why the Minister if consulting to get the final consultation process and then the Minister will announce the date of the analogue switch off.
Post the analogue switch off, the policy has been that because this is a caring government and we do not want to leave anyone behind, all the qualifying households will be supported by government to be given free set-top boxes so that they are able to be part of the migration. We have been all out communicating with members of the public that if you have this old TV set and you are qualifying please come register so that government can provide you with a free decoder. That has happened. September last year was the final date and we have received lots of applications which we are busy installing on.
We also said that post the analogue switch off date, those qualifying households who, for whatever reason, missed the deadline of September can still come and register. We are going to make sure that they are connected and they are part of the digital migration. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, since last year and even before then, submissions were made to your department by free to air broadcasters and they have requested that broadcasters using frequencies below 600MHz that haven’t been sold off to Telocoms operators, be granted
the opportunity to continue using these frequencies for a reasonable period of time to allow their viewers to migrate to digital devices. Now my question is, will the Minister, unlike his predecessor, consider the request of the free to air broadcasters to ensure that there is a just and free transition from analogue to digital? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Thank you very much, hon De Bruyn, for your question. What you are referring to is the spectrum. The allocation of spectrum is done by the regulator which is the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, ICASA, and it is done through a public process. Sometime before last year the regulator went out to issue invitations to apply, ITAs, to release the spectrum through an auctioning process.
After some litigation it was then resolved. Last year in March that spectrum auction finally happened and a number of bands were made available to the mobile network operators. They submitted their bid and that available spectrum was allocated to the mobile operators.
We are aware of the proposal of the free to air broadcasters to also be allocated spectrum, but as you know, spectrum is
not allocated by the Minister, it is allocated by the regulator which is ICASA. Part of the Minister’s engagements are with the free to air broadcasters, because as you know they are the main litigants in this case, to explore different options. I do not want to stand in this public platform to pre-empt what will be the final way forward between the Minister and the free to air broadcasters, but they are being engaged. I just wanted to emphasise the point that spectrum is
not allocated by the department or the Minister but it is done by the regulator. Thank you very much.
Question 52:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Hon Deputy Chair of the of the House, in response to the question by hon Visser the reply is as follows: It is common knowledge now that SA Post Office, Sapo has been experiencing severe financial challenges for several years. Unfortunately, with all the government’s interventions to date, the Post Office still continues to battle to financially recover. The severity of the financial position has been compounded by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, coupled with changes in the postal sector landscape and the prevailing operating environment which has evolved.
SA Post Office has in the recent financial years including the current one, continued to battle to generate enough revenue to fully meet its monthly financial obligations when they become due. It kept on maintaining operations under severe liquidity challenges, with anticipation that government funding will be will be made available to assist maintaining operations, invest in ... [Inaudible] ... and implementation of the Post Office of Tomorrow strategy.
The severity of the financial challenges continues to intensify to an extent that Sapo has been unable to fully settle its creditors’ obligations, which include unpaid statutory obligations such as the medical aid fund.
Unfortunately, no funding was made available in the recent past years except the intervention which is much welcome, that we received from Treasury of the 2,4 billion allocation which is of course accompanied by conditions.
The nonability to fully settle unpaid creditors including the medical aid fund, was a direct result of the severity of the cash flow situation at Sapo. The department is currently assisting the Post Office to mitigate against the provisional liquidation with the objective to save the entity This is
vital to afford the department and Sapo time and space, to effect the programme, to enhance revenue and manage costs while implementing the Post Office of Tomorrow Strategy. Thank you hon Deputy Chair.
Ms C VISSER: Hon Deputy Minister, with reference to the SA Post Office being placed under provisional liquidation and R700 million towards staff medical aid contributions not being paid, which somebody in public administration must be held accountable for. Who is accountable for maintaining such an illegal conduct, and what are the consequences in this regard? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): The SA Post Office has been going through serious difficulties. In fact, if you check their financials and their balance sheet over a period of time, you would realise that for almost 17 years it has been battling the transitions that have been happening in the postal market sector. For 17 years there has been changes drastically in the market. This is not only in South Africa, throughout the world. In fact, when you interact with postal operators throughout the world, they are experiencing the same problem
the same difficulties, that the traditional role of the Post Office which was the distribution of the letter post has been drastically affected by the technological development. So all the post offices are struggling throughout.
In respect to Sapo, there’s been various interventions in the past to try and mitigate against that. But there’s been an inability to fully turn around and to embrace the new market conditions. That is why there is a Post Office of Tomorrow Strategy which seeks to respond to this change in market conditions. With regard to and of course as a result of that, the expenditure has been exceeding the revenue and there has been an expectation that at some point, there will be intervention to recapitalise the organization, because they also have got an important role of providing universal access to postal services which most of our people in the rural areas are dependent on. That intervention has not been coming until recently. It meant that they had to operate in those severe liquidity challenges and they have not been paying their creditors, until we are finding ourselves in a situation where there is this liquidation.
Obviously in the totality of what has been happening in the Post Office at some point, there will have to be scrutiny and those not only these ones, but even the previous ones who are out there, making all sorts of pronouncement that they can save it. In fact, if you look at some of their records and the record of the Post Office during the time that they were in charge, that is when the decline was accelerated. We will have to take a complete look at all what has happened to the Post Office at some particular point, but what we assist with currently is to save the entity and to make sure that the final liquidation is not granted. Thank you hon Deputy Chair.
Ms T C MODISE: Hon Deputy Minister we are indeed humbled by your commitment and your efforts to rescue this critical important service point to the majority of our people, especially the poor in the working class. As part of the future sustainability of Sapo, are there any anticipated plans for the restructuring and re-engineering of the service offering to maximise the competitive edge and self- sustainability in the medium to long term? If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Indeed, we have got a plan to reposition and to reorientate the Post Office so that it can respond to the change market conditions which I have spoken about.
Cabinet recently approved what we call the Post Office of Tomorrow Strategy, where the Post Office will be restructured and will be repositioned. There are about four strategic anchors that are anchoring this this Post Office of Tomorrow Strategy. First of all, we would like for the Post Office to be the leading logistics provider in South Africa and indeed, even in the continent. We would like it to have partnerships with the existing operators in the market. We also want to transform the Post Office to become the e-commerce hub, not only of the country but of the continent and to participate in the e-commerce market, the personal parcel space and all of that.
We also want the Post Office to be the trust centre, to be the leading authentication authority especially during this time of digital identity and the digital economy. But we also want to transform the Post Office to become the logistics business hubs, particularly in in areas where most of our people are not able to access areas where there are these facilities. We
want to use this expansive network of the Post Office to create the logistics hub in our communities. That is the intention of government. That is the intention that we want to transform the Post Office to become. If you look at what we want to do, then it will be able to get it reorientated so that it doesn't become an only machinery that is concentrating on the letter post. Thank you very much hon Deputy Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Minister, with most post offices now being closed, it leaves many underprivileged people stranded when it comes to services. I would like to know; what plans does the department have to provide the services that the Post Office was able to offer to underprivileged communities? Thank you hon Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Indeed, as I was saying, we plan to turn the Post Office around through the implementation of the Post Office of Tomorrow. For us to succeed in doing that, we require funding for this Post Office. We’ve had engagements with National Treasury. They were getting to appreciate the strategic importance of the Post Office as a service point to our communities. That is why Treasury has agreed to offer the
R2,4 billion that was announced by the Minister of Finance which has since been made available.
Unfortunately, we got hit by this provisional liquidation which is sort of changing our forecast now to save the organization whilst we attend to these legal issues because we had intended that, as soon as the money is made available we had already developed plans. There were conditions imposed by National Treasury. We had already worked on how we were going to comply with those conditions. And so we are now seized with this provisional liquidation. Hopefully we will deal with it. and after that, we will then continue with our plans to reposition the Post Office so that those branches are not closed.
We are aware that the branches are closing ... [Inaudible] ... of these severe financial challenges that it is experiencing. But we can certainly say that as soon as we have dealt with the liquidation, we will make sure that those branches are reopened. But of course there are a number of branches where there had been a duplication. For instance, as you know that in the past the Post Office moved into the malls, you find a situation where there is a mall and there is a Post Office
there, but when you drive out there is another Post Office. This one we are renting, that other one belongs to the Post Office it is not rented, but they moved out they moved into - so that strategy did not work. We are going to go back into the properties owned by the Post Office and make sure that as the strategy gains momentum, we will open those branches.
Thank you very much hon Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): We have
been informed that all the follow-up questions on this Vote for the EFF will be taken by hon Mokause. So now it is hon Mokause.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Minister, you will agree with that wasteful and irregular expenditure has led to the closure of numerous SA Post Office’s branches around the country and to date, no one has been held accountable for this deliberate collapse of branches of the SA Post Office. Which investigation has been carried out into the looting of the post offices and how many people were charged so far for the mismanagement of funds in this entity? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): I will respectfully disagree with you that the closure of the Post Offices is as a result of wasteful and irregular expenditure, it is not. If we were to ascribe the closure to that reasoning that would not be taking into account, the totality and the complex nature in which the organization is existing. I have just explained that, the Post Office has been operating under severe liquidity challenges as a result of the change market condition and the decline in the revenue. So, it has not been able to turn itself around and it has experienced a situation where because there was a need to keep the business afloat, they had to operate in an environment where the expenditure exceeds the revenue. That is why we find ourselves in this situation.
Of course yes, there is irregular expenditure which is reported by the Auditor-General. It is a matter that we are seized with. In fact, when we came in in October of 2021 when were appointed, we insisted that there must be consequences. So, there is a Financial Misconduct Committee in the entity that follows up all the instances of irregular expenditure that has been reported. There had been consequences as a result of that. If the member wants us to provide the details,
we can provide the details of what has been done by the entity to deal with matters of wasteful and irregular expenditure.
Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Question 43:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Our reply is as follows: The actual position taken by the shareholder which is the government through the Ministry regarding the provisional liquidation of Sapo, is to put measures in place to save the entity from the liquidation.
In this regard, we have been working tirelessly with Sapo, considering various options to find an optimal option within the legal prescripts and confines of the provisional liquidation to save the entity from the liquidation.
In line with the overall objective to save Sapo from the liquidation, the Ministry together with Sapo have engaged various stakeholders including the National Treasury in considering various options to save the entity from the liquidation.
The services of the senior legal counsel have been sourced to provide advice and guidance on the optimal option in dealing with these matters. The plan is to get the matters resolved before the 1st of June final court date so that the entity can continue to operate as a going concern.
The department will be in a better position to make pronouncements in due course through the Minister, after all the legal procedural matters and consultations have been completed to effect the decision of an optimal option to mitigate against the liquidation.
For now, it is vital to assure the public that their ongoing concerted efforts to ensure that the optimal option to mitigate against the liquidation is put in place with the objective being to save the entity. This will ensure that the impact of the provisional liquidation on the ordinary South Africans making use of the Post Office’s services is mitigated against.
We are mindful that prior to the liquidation provisional order being issued, Sapo was already in a difficult operating environment due to the severity of financial challenges. As a
matter of fact, notwithstanding the provisional liquidation order, the entity continues to be operational and ensure that the provision of services is not affected. This includes the payments of social grants on the postal banking services.
Sapo has also assured the department that while the optimal response to the liquidation risk is being worked upon, there are ongoing regular engagements made between Sapo and the liquidator to discuss a number of options to ensure that Sapo’s provision of essential services are not negatively affected.
We call on the public to remain calm whilst the plan is being put in place to save the Post Office. Sapo continues to be operational whilst optimal mitigation of the liquidation is being put in place.
The continuation of the provision of services including the social grants and postal banking services is of utmost importance hence all efforts are being made to ensure that the entity is saved from the liquidation because it is vital to guarantee continuation of the delivery of services. I thank you Deputy Chair.
Mr I NTSUBE: Deputy Minister, the loss of critical benefits like medical aid and contribution to the pension fund is something serious and requires the department’s attention. As you indicated that you will be announcing measures that you are going to be taking to ensure that you save Sapo from this liquidation, in the immediate, what are some of the measures that you are undertaking for you to ensure that you reach the medium and long term measures to resuscitate and save Sapo from the liquidation? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): As you know that the liquidation is currently a legal matter before the courts. We have retained the senior counsel’s services who is advising us on what options are available to us to save the entity. We have had a number of consultations with the legal counsel. Cabinet is also engaged on the matter.
There has recently been a brief into Cabinet on what needs to be done legally to save the organisation from this provisional liquidation. We are looking at a number of options. In fact, there is a preferred option but I am not at liberty as there are a number of sensitivities.
There are creditors involved who must also buy into whatever approach that will best result in them not being worse off. We are engaging in those discussions and as soon as they are concluded, we will make the necessary pronouncement.
But, in as far as some of the contributions, our intention was that part of the money we are going to receive from Treasury was to settle the outstanding creditors, particularly the medical aid, pension fund contribution, what we call statutory including SA Revenue Services. Settle partly some of that but also to find a strategy so that the business continues as a going concern and over a period of time it gets on its feet and is able to settle all the creditors entirely.
But as I said, in the fullness of time, we will have to come back and interrogate what actually happened now but in the past as well so that there can be serious consequences for whatever that might have happened which is wrong. Thank you.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Minister, you have covered my question on your responses to Question 52 regarding the turnaround strategy for the Post Office but I will still ask this. Deputy Minister, with the new board that has been
appointed for the Post Office, how will the new board, this department and all relevant officials for that matter be held accountable to ensure a successful turnaround of the Post Office and this does not repeat itself again? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Hon de Bruyn, with regard to the board, we have just extended their mandate by three to six months depending on how soon we are able to ensure that we go out and advertise and get people to respond and run through the process until we go to Cabinet.
The intension of the extension is to allow us a process to properly appoint the board as you know it’s an appointment that is done in consultation with Cabinet so, it might take some time, probably six months.
So, we have not appointed a new board. This board is being seized with assisting the shareholder to turn the Post Office around. This is the board that was responsible for the development of the strategy that I spoke to you about which is anchored on four levels which I had explained. We have been working with them.
The problems of the Post office predate the board and it has been happening before this current board was appointed. We have been working with them and they are coming up with a number of suggestions on how we can take the process forward. Our relationship with them is not adversarial but more complimentary, we are working well with them.
As you said, I have already explained the elements of the strategy are when talking about the Post Office of tomorrow. Thank you very much hon Deputy Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Minister, thousands of social grants with Cash Paymaster, CPMs, across the country were unable to receive their social grants through the SA Post Office at some point, with reports that some are not being paid at all and having travelled far from rural communities to access Post Offices.
This Minister rendered the recipients extremely vulnerable. What are your interventions from your department to ensure that these acts of inhumanity are not repeated by this entity?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Hon Mokause, the social grants payment has been seeded over from the SA Post Office to the Post Bank.
That session happened last year in October. So as we speak now, the Post Bank is responsible for the social grant payments.
However, the Post Bank is still utilizing the Post Offices in some areas for the cash pay points. But as you now that the bulk payments that happened are no longer through cash pay points. I think it’s an insignificant amount now yet it is very important. The bulk of the payments are taking place through other merchants by the Post Office.
If the Post Office branches are closed, that impacts on cash payments. But, there are measures that have been put on place by the Post Bank to mitigate against that area. Although it gets to be experienced, it is not at a wide scale level because there are other measures that have been put in place to ensure that the social grants are paid by the Post Bank.
Thank you very much.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy Minister, you have on one side given a bit of an answer because my question or reply is similar to the previous speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, despite assurances that millions of beneficiaries whose Sassa cards are expiring will be paid through the new cardless system, Sassa and the Post Office with the newly established Post Bank does have a dismal record of paying, you cannot deny that. Apart from vague promises, what procedures and protocols have you put in place to ensure that these beneficiaries receive their grants?
Please keep in mind that promises keep being made that access to grant funds through partner retailers will be done yet, as the DA we are on a daily basis inundated by complaints from beneficiaries who are unable to access their grants through retailers or banks.
Many bank beneficiaries spend up to half of their grants on transport to and from pay points only to return empty handed because these retailers are not established in the areas where they live. They have to travel kilometres to get to these banks or retailers because they don’t have like you say Boxer or Shoprite where they live. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Although I did not hear some portions of your question properly especially when you talk about dismal failure, I don’t know what dismal failure you are referring to. I did not hear that but I will attempt. I’m afraid I am not the one presiding so; I would not say please repeat. But let me attempt in the manner in which I understood your question.
Firstly, your question speaks to the expiry of the Sassa card and how we are dealing with that. Secondly, it refers to the distance that the beneficiaries have to travel to receive their payments. I did not hear the third one, I heard those two.
Hon Boshoff, as I said, this question about the Sassa cards is about Post Bank because the Post Bank is now responsible for the social grants payments. But let me answer it nevertheless.
The Post Bank is regulated by the Reserve Bank, through a division of the Reserve Bank called the Prudential Authority. The Prudential Authority has identified risks on the normal cards that were used by the beneficiaries that were issued
then by the Post Office. They have requested a replacement because of the security risks in that.
The Post Bank had embarked on a process of replacing those cards and those cards were expiring in the process. I am sure you noticed that there was an announcement by the Payment Association of South Africa that there will be an extension of those cards that are expiring until the end of this year. As we speak now the expiry date of all those cards has been extended until the end of this year. The Post Bank had embarked on a process of replacing them.
In addition to that, the Post Bank has introduced an innovative system where a beneficiary can be paid without a Sassa card. They have made that announcement; it is on the website. I think this past weekend they were running an awareness where they were advertising. So, there are other means of collecting payment without necessarily having a Sassa card.
Secondly, regarding the distance, there are a number of social grant payments that are done with merchants, retailers and banks in partnership with the Post Bank. Another form of
payment is through the cash pay points. The cash pay points have proven to be a very difficult one, which is something that we have been encouraging that over time we must move away from that because it means you must physically go and collect cash from the banks, by the cash in transit companies and do the pay-out. The risk associated with that payment method is quite high.
Nevertheless, we are still continuing to engage with that through the Post Bank. Those who are unable to get to the retail merchants ... I’m sorry my time is up ... they should be able to go to the cash pay points. I hope I have adequately answered you hon Boshoff.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I know you have because the other issue was around the spread of these merchants that are not necessarily accessible to other communities. The other one was about travelling long distances, I think you have responded.
But, the issue that I want say is that even if you say it is spread amongst, it will be necessary for those responsible for social grant payments and those responsible for the Post
Office to sit down and see how the accessibility of pay-outs can be reconciled.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P MAPULANE): Indeed, Deputy Chair, as we are responding we are also taking advise because the idea is to continuously improve on the method and the systems that we use to pay the social grants. Any idea is welcome. To mitigate against the availability of the merchants, we have the cash pay points at particular intervals where we do payments through the Post Bank.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In any case, I think this a discussion for another day because when this merchants issue started, we were against that specific issue. But, the issue of merchants is not necessarily your competency. Hence I say it is a discussion for another day but we will follow up on that. Thank you Deputy Minister
Question 38:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGIES: Today’s session, hon Deputy Chair, it’s really on the Post Office and the liquidation and what we’re doing.
Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair, and thank you to hon Magwala for the question. Our response is as follows, that the actual position that was taken by the shareholder regarding the provisional liquidation order for SA Post Office, Sapo, is to put measures in place to save the entity. In this regard, we are working with Sapo. I think we’re repeating some of the points because these questions are almost the same. We are working with Sapo to consider various ways to find an optimal approach within the legal prescripts and confined of the liquidation proceedings to save the entity. In line with the overall objective to save this entity, the Ministry has engaged the various stakeholders to see as to how we can respond to the situation and save the entity. Just to avoid repeating most of the things that I’ve said, I think it is important for us to assure the employees of the entity and the public that there are ongoing tireless efforts to ensure that the proper option and solution is found to mitigate against the liquidation with our objective to make sure that we save the entity.
It is our understanding and our belief that it is in saving Sapo that jobs can be protected within the confines of the legal prescripts and Sapo’s implementation of a Post Office of
tomorrow. The security of employment is of utmost important especially during this time. Well, all efforts are being made to ensure that the entity is saved from liquidation. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair, through you to Deputy Minister, the Post Office has been unable to keep up with the technological advances in communication which is at the centre of its failure to generate revenue. Retrenchments of workers, Deputy Minister, cannot be the solution. I hope this time you’ll agree with me. What are the plans that have you put in place to stabilise the finances in this entity and making sure that there are no job losses in this entity? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGIES: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, and thank you, hon Mokause. Indeed, hon Mokause, technological advances and adoption has had a significant impact on the business of Sapo. There we agree. I think you have correctly characterised what the problem there is. Therefore, because of the introduction of the internet people are no longer sending letters through the post, they just send an email. Therefore, technology has had a big impact on the business of Sapo. We
agree and that’s why we’re saying initially that Sapo has not been able to recover from the introduction of technology, and hence we’re saying that we have now come up with Sapo of tomorrow strategy which moves away from the letter post as a traditional role of the Post Office. Therefore, the strategy will be implemented over time which will seek to respond to the technological advances and the challenges that are posed by technology.
With respect to the retrenchment of workers, the Post Office for a while has embarked on a process of what they call the voluntary severance packages to try and mitigate against the number of employees that they have. If I may just give you a picture now that just over 60% of the operational expenditure of the Post Office consist of salaries - over 60% is just salaries. If you look at the revenue versus the expenditure, the revenue that the Post Office was able to generate just in the past financial year was not itself sufficient to cover just the salary portion of the operational expenditure.
Therefore, it’s heavily burdened by the salary expenditure. So, as to how the Post Office resolves it, the details are then on the Post Office of tomorrow. However, we know that they’ve been trying to reduce that through the voluntary
severance package, VSP. However, the post office has also been trying to get VSP, hon member.
It looks like the hon member is thinking of something else ... [Interjections.] ... jaa, the hon member is thinking of other things other than the voluntary severance packages. Therefore, as I was saying that they’ve been introducing the severance packages, but also recently they had started the process of
189 of the Labour Relations Act. However, I know that they’ve also been trying to introduce innovative ways to get their employees to become involved as entrepreneurs to render the services that the Post Office has been rendering.
Yes, the solution is not for the Post Office to collapse and get the people to lose their jobs, but the model as it is unsustainable, hon member, I can tell you that. We can look at the books of the Post Office are unsustainable to continue to have a situation. And this situation by the way comes from the strike of 2014 that crippled the Post Office whereby over
8 000 employees had to be absorbed, just around there, and which was put a lot of heavy burden on their salary budget. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair.
Mr M R BARA: Deputy Chair, through you to Deputy Minister, I’m worried because I get a sense that you’re already convinced that there’s no other way except people losing their jobs.
That’s what I’m reading from what you are telling us. However, having said that the Post Office just received a bailout from the Treasury which is another failed state-owned entity.
Deputy Minister, DM, traditional postal services around the world have experienced challenges, but have adapted. We see no such plan for the Sapo an ideal chance to bring the Postbank into the Ministry was squandered when government forced commercial banks to establish Mzansi accounts. A chance to validate the Post Office by making it the payment point for SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, has been missed.
Courier services are by far the first choice for most people with international online sales companies refusing to deal with Sapo. Now, my question is, what are you doing to reinvent the Post Office to make it relevant and ensure that the 6 000 jobs can be saved for the sake of the employees, but also in a way that will be to the benefit of all South Africans? Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGIES: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, and thank you for the question, hon Bara. What I was doing, hon Bara, I was giving you the facts that this is the factual situation where we are that the situation as it is when you look at it is unsustainable. You cannot have a business whose sole existence is to pay salaries. There must be a particular portion that is there to finance its operation. Therefore, I’m just saying that the model as it is, is unsustainable. How the Post Office deal with it, of course, will be advised by the board, but we have been told that they’ve tried to introduce this voluntary severance packages. They’ve tried to introduce a system where they encourage most of the workers to provide services as entrepreneurs to buy, you know, the scooters and all of that to make business from the Post Office because they’re already have experience in that. Therefore, they are trying innovative for this.
Now, recently, they’ve introduced the section 189 process of the Labour Relations Act, so, that’s what they are doing. All what I’m saying is that on a factual basis when you look at the figures and when you look at the numbers, it’s unsustainable. As I was saying in the past financial year that
the total revenue not just from one service, the total revenue of the Post Office was not sufficient to even cover the salary budget. Therefore, that is the factual situation as we have it.
Now, with regard to, yes, the majority of the postal operators as I was saying is not unique to South Africa. Somebody was saying in the 17 years of ANC government, no, no, it’s not unique to South Africa that’s very myopic in approach. If you are to aggregate the problems just here at home is globally, they’ve been experiencing such challenges. Some Post Office, like the Post Office in Japan, for instance, have been able to survive owing to it been privatised. It has been completely privatised and is somehow manage, we can’t say that we still have to look at it what are the finances saying, but it’s trying to survive.
However, the question for us is whether in our case that option is the most optimal option. I can tell you that it is not and the reason why I’m saying this is because most of the postal networks, and most of the branches are located in the poor areas. Therefore, in terms of our legislation, the Post Office is obligated to provide services, even if the provision
of service they don’t derive any revenue out of it. So, this is what we call universal obligations that were imposed by the Act.
Now, if we were to privatise, for instance, will the private sector render a service where they’re not able to make revenue? No, they won’t. Therefore, what will happen to the service that is required in uMkhanyakude, in Vhembe and in Sekhukhune because you need that service to continue to be rendered? That’s why you must keep some form of public ownership of this entity so that it is able to continue to provide the service that we require in those areas. With regards to the saving Sapo, I’ve already indicated that we have got a strategy building the Post Office of tomorrow, which we are convinced that properly implemented will be able to save that organisation. Thank you.
Mr Z MKIVA: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson, for the opportunity. Hon Deputy Minister, my question is quite linked to the previous question as stated that the loss of 6 000 jobs under the current economic condition will be too much a loss for a country. I’m sure the Deputy Minister will agree that this requires hard choices and decisions by government. In the
light of this, Deputy Minister, has the National Treasury been brought on board regarding this and, if so, what is their position in terms of saving the situation? Thank you very much, DM, and thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGIES: Deputy Chair, through you to hon Mkiva, thank you for the question. Maybe let me start with the last point you made about National Treasury. Yes, National Treasury had been engaged. As I said that we are beginning to see things from the same perspective between ourselves and National Treasury. That’s why over a period of time we have been engaging with them but they were not convinced that we can save the Post Office until recently when we engaged with them they’re beginning to agree. That’s why there is this initial capital injection of R2,4 billion, which was announced during the Minister’s Budget Speech. Therefore, ourselves and Treasury are beginning to see things the same way.
Of course, they asked us to come up with a survey which is called a postal review market where it looks at the trend and all of that and they’ve given assurance to government whether we are able to save the Post Office as is currently. So, we
have done that, we’ve concluded it and we’ve sent it to them and they agree with us. They’ve given us this money. Of course, we’ve always been saying that there will come a point where when assistance come it will be too late because the bleeding would have been too much. It’s like waiting for the paramedics, you’re bleeding and at some point if they delay they might find the patient dead. Unfortunately, they almost came at a point where it was critical that they must come in and we’re happy and we’re very appreciative of the intervention and we have got a plan to utilise the
R2,4 billion that they have provided us.
With regards to job losses, I think somebody was saying that we need to lose 12 000 of 14 000 jobs or can you lose a lesser number in order to save the larger number? Now, those are some of the hard choices that you have to make when you are running an entity like that. As I was saying that when you look at the numbers they are unsustainable and something has to happen, and we do acknowledge that we are living in this current difficult economic conditions. Government is always called upon to make this hard choices, but I’m not here to make an announcement about what’s going to happen. All what we are assist with currently is to save the jobs that are there at
the Post Office and we’re doing everything in our power to save the jobs, any further pronouncement about what is going to happen to attend to this unsustainable salary bill it’s something that I’m sure at an appropriate time the Minister will make an announcement and we’ll take it from there. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, through you to hon Deputy Minister, it has been long held by the governing party that the state-owned entities, SOEs, will create jobs. Yet, there’s a factual information which shows, in fact, they have been a drain on the country’s purse where the money could be better spent on infrastructure development. Can the Deputy Minister give an answer on whether the department would consider working with the private sector to ensure that the SA Post Office will become financial stable and be able to expand its job creation initiatives? Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair, and thank you, hon Hadebe. Now, you know, the idea of having state-owned entities it’s an idea whose origin comes from an appreciation that the state needs to play a role in the economy, particularly a
developmental role in the economy because not all areas and not only to address the market failure where the private sector won’t be able to provide a service if it’s not beneficial for them, but also to make sure that there are certain services that are provided by the state.
Therefore, the philosophy is that the state will always have a much bigger appetite, particularly risk appetite to make sure that where the private sector is not able to invest the state comes and invest. So, that is the idea around the SOEs and that’s the idea which from ourselves as the African National Congress we believe in that because we believe in a developmental state. The state that has got the ability and the capacity to intervene in the economy. Whether the department will work with the private sector, any option available, as government and as the department we’re willing to explore in any case the Post Office of tomorrow talks about partnership. Already it’s very strong, there is a strong slant on partnership, which is embedded in the strategy that we must work with the already existing postal operators to create partnerships. Some of them are not able to take their parcels and their letters to the far-flung rural areas. We have got the infrastructure to do that, so, we can partner with the
private sector. On the e-commence space we can partner with the private sector. Therefore, indeed, hon member, we are open for that. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.
Question 57:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Chair, yes indeed we are moving away from the Post Office. We have interrogated the issues sufficiently. Our response to the question is that ... Now, it looks like ... Is it Question 57?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You did
respond in the first ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Is it Question 57?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Question 57
is more or less the same as the question from ma Mamorobela.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, it’s on the broadcasting digital
migration, BDM, and I think it’s been dealt with before. So I don’t know whether to repeat the response, hon Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Ryder,
do you want him to repeat the response that he gave earlier on the issue of analogue and digital ...
Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chair, I think that this points to a problem in the questions office. The fact that the questions office allowed two almost identical questions to come onto the paper is something that needs to be interrogated because it’s not the only instance that this has happened in. So, whilst I think that the Deputy Minister has given us substantial feedback, I do have some more probing questions that I would like to ask as a follow up, if I may.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, what
you are saying is that it’s fine that he doesn’t respond again but you want to ask a follow-up question?
Mr D R RYDER: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can we
continue like that? Thank you, hon Ryder.
Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Minister, the initial target for the digital migration was to have 80% of users migrated in time for the 2010 World Cup. That was the target — for the 2010 World Cup, 80% of users. It’s 13 years later and we are still getting excuses from the department, from your predecessors and the predecessors in the Minister’s office, talking about litigation and technical challenges, etc. So you can’t stand here before us and blame legal action. It’s been 13 years. Who makes the laws? Who is allowing the legal issues to hold this thing back? We make the laws here in Parliament.
So, Deputy Minister, in reality this is a genuine cost to the economy as we’ve held back the release of that 4G and 5G bandwidth. The fact that it may have been auctioned off, there still remains capacity in play that’s been used by television broadcasters.
There have been 12 Ministers since 2009. Even hon Yunus had a go at it. Twelve Ministers since 2009. So, if there is such a shuffle, it points to a bit of a prioritisation problem by the
President and the Cabinet. So, Deputy Minister, we want to know now who do we blame? Do we blame the previous Ministers? Do we blame the director-general? Do we blame the President? Or is the ANC just incapable of running government? Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Deputy
Minister, you may respond to the issues that are relevant to the question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, I can assure the member that we are more than competent to discharge our mandate and we are doing it very competently.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): I have explained about the delay. I have explained to the member about the delay but the member insists that those delays were not delays. I am saying that there had been litigation. Firstly, there was a discussion about the relevant technological products to use, which took some time.
You would remember the discussion about encrypted set-top boxes not being encrypted, which was the discussion in the industry.
After that was resolved, there was litigation. Now, the hon member wants us to come here and say there is no litigation. As you know, there was a Constitutional Court matter. Your colleague talked about the free-to-air broadcasters who want a particular band of spectrum. Okay? I’m sure you just have to compare notes because they are the ones who have consistently litigated on the BDM.
Mr D R RYDER: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, using their own rights as corporate citizens of this country.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Deputy
Minister, continue to respond to the question that was legitimately asked.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Okay. So we do accept that there is a delay. That’s why there is renewed focus from ourselves that we need to finalise the BDM. We have started. We have switched off five provinces and we remain with four provinces.
We agree with you that the cost of what we call dual illumination, meaning that we broadcast both digital and analogue, is too much. We can’t afford it. This is an argument we have been saying to the free-to-air broadcasters that it is very, very expensive to continue keeping these two systems.
Sentech is no longer getting parts. It’s very expensive for them to continue to provide analogue services. So, it’s more reason for us to migrate. So, we are pushing that but we are being held back by some of the people whose colleague from the same organisation represented their perspective here this afternoon. So we will finalise this.
With regard to the bands, I have already explained that it is the process of the Independent Communications Authority of SA, Icasa, to allocate spectrum and if the free-to-air broadcasters and other broadcasters want to participate in
that market, they will engage the authority, which is Icasa, on this matter. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, are you on the same question asked by ma Mamorobela?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I don’t understand why you allow the mistake made by the questions table to come here, and actually allow a squabble like the one that happened now between the Deputy Minister and the DA. That question was asked and that question has passed. What the questions table did was to allow a similar question. Why didn’t they allow another question and not two similar questions to be on this Question Paper?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, it ... [Inaudible.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It’s not our incompetence. It’s your questions table which is making such silly mistakes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, does it mean you don’t have a follow-up question? If not, let us continue.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not going to make as if your Table Staff or your questions table is competent enough.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): We are all
the NCOP. It doesn’t natter ... [Inaudible.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is a similar question. Why do you allow a similar question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You are a
member of the NCOP. It’s your table also.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Why? Why do you allow that thing to happen?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): It’s your
table too. Don’t take yourself out of the story. I don’t know what the issue is.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, I’m taking myself out of the story because they allowed such a silly mistake to happen. It’s a silly mistake.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Mokause, you are a member of the NCOP. It’s also your questions table. If you don’t have a question, we will continue. We are going to hon De Bruyn.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It doesn’t mean that we don’t have a question. You cannot repeat the same question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You don’t
have a question. You don’t have a question.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It’s the same question. It’s the same question and it can never be allowed in the NCOP. Why do you do that?
Why?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can someone please close the microphone? Can you mute hon Mokause so that we can get to the next question? Hon Mokause just wants people
to know that she was here because she will not come next week. Hon De Bruyn?
Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, on a point of order: The comment that you’ve made to hon Mokause is unwarranted.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): She ...
{Inaudible] ... like that.
Ms M DLAMINI: But I’m talking to you now. That was an unwarranted comment to make to a Member of Parliament because we do not keep a record of who from other parties comes into the House or does not come into the House. I’m asking you to withdraw that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): It’s not a
point of order and I ... [Inaudible.]
Ms M DLAMINI: It is a point of order. You cannot dismiss us like that. You keep dismissing the EFF. You always dismiss us, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Don’t
generalise. Who? What? No.
Ms M DLAMINI: You are dismissing me now.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You are
wrong. You are wrong.
Ms M DLAMINI: Don’t be dismissive. You are dismissing me like you were dismissive towards her now on the platform.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I am
presiding and I say it’s not a point of order.
Ms M DLAMINI: She is a member who has been duly elected to be here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): It’s not a
point of order. Can you please sit down, hon Dlamini? I am presiding and I am saying it’s not a point of order. Hon De Bruyn, can we have the follow-up question please?
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Minister, has there been any collaboration between your department and other departments, like for example Trade and Industry, to reduce the number of analogue devices that are being imported into the South African market since the planned analogue switch off ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Deputy Chair, I can’t hear the member.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon De
Bruyn, speak into the microphone please.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Sorry, I will start from the beginning. Deputy Minister, has there been any collaboration between your department and other departments, like for example Trade and Industry, to reduce the number of analogue devices that are being imported into the South African market since the beginning of the planned analogue switch off? If not, why not, because it seems at this stage that South Africa is the dumping ground for old technology, and this while we are planning to switch off analogue technology. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, we are talking to the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition on this particular matter, and not only on this but also with regard to the mobile devices, particularly the 2G and 3G. You know that there is an intention on our part to discontinue those gadgets. So, we are talking to them. There is already a Gazette that has been issued by the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition on that. So, there is communication between ourselves.
We don’t want our country to be the dumping site for old technology and that is why we are engaging with them. The point that we keep saying is that we have to migrate from analogue to digital because digital offers a whole host of opportunities and so we truly have to be in the era of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. We cannot continue to remain behind.
So, the short answer is, yes indeed, we are engaging with them. There has already been a breakthrough in terms of the devices. They have already issued a Gazette. Then we are also engaging with them on the ... The problem is that there is still pushback from the free-to-air broadcasters around this
need to migrate. Of course, we have to continue to roll out the set-top boxes because most of our people still have those small televisions which are not receptive to digital signals. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair.
Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson of the session, and also thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister, thank you for the comprehensive response to this question.
IsiZulu:
Cha! Nongazwile, uzwe kahle, noma bethi uyaphindaphinda nje kodwa uzwe kahle ngokuphendula kwakho.
English:
Has the department identified and addressed all potential factors that might lead to possible future delays?
IsiZulu:
Yilowo mbuzo nje, Sekela Mongameli wami, ngoba nje ngifuna ukuthi njengoba bethi iyaphindaphinda, thina ...
English:
... we do have follow-up questions. Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: That is not a follow-up question. You are just repeating what I said. It’s not a follow-up question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order, hon
Mokause!
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It’s not a follow-up question. Don’t take my question and say you have a follow-up question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order! In
the end you become the EFF when you abuse us like this. Can you please ... No, she becomes the EFF when we start asking her not to be out of order. Then others stand up and say I am abusing the EFF when its Mokause who is abusing us. [Interjections.] Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Yes, indeed, there are mitigations. We are determined. I think the message that we would want to leave with hon members here is that we are determined to finally
switch off analogue TV broadcasting so that we can move to digital. We are left with four provinces. We are doing everything else in our power to make sure that we ramp up installation in those. The indication that we are already getting is that there is significant progress that we are making in those areas. We are finally going to roll out the set-top boxes, and migrate.
As I said, the reason why we are giving these set-top boxes for free ... There is no obligation. It’s a policy decision taken by the government that we must not leave anybody behind because we are a caring government. Everybody must get this so that they are part of the migration. So, we are rolling them out. We will soon be finalising it and the Minister will be announcing the final date of the analogue switch off.
Mr M NHANHA: Deputy Chairperson, on point of order: I am aware that I’m probably not the best person to speak on the matter. I probably don’t have the authority to do so.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): And your
point of order is?
Mr M NHANHA: I’m just getting to the point. Please be patient with me. [Interjections.] I’m getting to the point. There is an issue of questions that have been duplicated. I would really want to request the leadership of the NCOP, including the Whips of parties, to look into this.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can you
allow us as the presiding officers to deal with the issue? Hon Ryder raised it very competently. I think it’s an issue that we will deal with. So, can we continue?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You know, Deputy Chairperson, you are such a
... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas):
[Inaudible.] ... it depends on how you raise an issue.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are such an ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can we
continue with our Question Session? We now have Question 44 as asked by hon Ngwenya and we will request the Deputy Minister to respond thereto.
Question 44:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Deputy Chair, hon Ngwenya, our response is that we have been informed by the SABC that the main challenge identified in the last financial year was the inability of licence holders to afford payment of licence fees, which were owed and that are in arrears, amidst the rising costs of living. This resulted in reduced compliance rates from loyal paying customers and those who are in arrears.
Although the SABC pursued monthly instalments and settlement offers, which were relatively successful at the end of the fiscal year, a reduced appetite towards this opportunities month on month has been observed. In addition to this, there was a high level of dishonoured debit orders.
Two main processes to address this will be implemented in this financial year. As you know, of course, the board has just recently been appointed and it still needs to be finalised by the board. The one is that, following a legal opinion that was obtained by the SABC, it will implement a prescription to TV license fees debts that are older than three years. This debt
will be written off to make it affordable for licence holders to repay lesser debts.
The SABC is finalising the appointment of a supplier to introduce a loyalty awards programme. The programme aims to encourage and solicit payments, retain customers by offering rewards for compliance with legislation. However, there are two major challenge that must be addressed to sustain this revenue stream in the long term.
The department has commenced with the required process, working with the SABC to remove this challenge. One of the challenges is the outdated TV license legislation. The existing legislation is not aligned to the developments of the broadcasting debt collection industries and places limitations on improved and effective collection. This challenge will be addressed through the proposals that are contained in the SABC Bill.
The second is the inadequate technologies to support operational activities. The layout and technology in place in the debt collection industry are far advanced compared to the
TV licences. This requires extensive capital setup and annual costs.
Therefore, a business decision has been taken to outsource TV licence operation to a supplier that has the required updated technology and infrastructure that will enable improved customer service and revenue collection, until a funding model has been established. Thank you very much.
Ms W NGWENYA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, in light of the poor revenue collection by the SABC, I want to check whether the board, in consultation with the Minister, has considered alternative revenue collection and credit control models for sustainable cash flow? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Deputy Chair, hon Ngwenya, yes, indeed, this is one issue that is on the table of the new board. As we are saying, there is a proposal by the executive of the SABC to get the board to approve these service providers, who will deploy their technology to make sure that they accelerate the process of collecting licence fees.
There is also the loyalty programme that the executive has proposed to the board, to create some incentive for people to pay their TV licences. In the department, going forward, we think that the TV licence regime that we have is not a viable option of funding the SABC. Currently, we are sitting with a debt of over R44 billion that the SABC is not able to collect.
So, we need to introduce a new mechanism that will be introduced through the legislation – the SABC Bill that will come before Parliament, to try and introduce a new mechanism of funding, especially the public mandate of the SABC. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, as there has been a long-standing problem of unpaid TV licences, many citizens feel as if they are not getting the services they pay for as part of the licence fee. Will the department offer different rates to business, students, the elderly, and youth in order to make the licence fee more affordable to all citizens? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Hadebe, I would
not want to talk to the details of the proposals that the executive will bring to the new board. We must allow the board to engage with that and to make their decision and pronounce it publically.
However, there are two elements to it that the SABC executive is looking at. One is introducing the loyalty programme, to make sure that we give incentives to people who pay the licence fees. The second one is to get the company that has the required technology to do these follow ups. So, they are looking at that.
I am saying that there should be a long-term intervention to address this, because as you know, this thing is embedded in the legislation. It is in the Broadcasting Act. So, we are limited in terms of what you can do. So, the Broadcasting Act of 1999 prescribes how you must collect the TV licences.
I am saying things have moved. There has been an introduction of new players in the market. As you know, the broadcasting landscape has significantly changed and so you need another mechanism.
I am not sure whether introducing different rates will be permissible in term of the current legislation. I doubt that it will be. However, as I say, the SABC is looking at those issues. In the long term, the SABC will help us. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, with all the difficulties of unemployment that South Africans are facing, they also find themselves owing TV licence fees, having not kept up with the payment of their TV licences. And not that alone, the TV licences have actually brought some of them to credit bureaus. Is the sitting government willing to wipe away the TV licence debts to ensure that South Africans do not find themselves being listed at the credit bureau, due to owing TV licence fees? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Deputy Chair, hon Mokause, I think, if you listen to our original response to this question, it addresses particularly those issues. The rising costs of living have resulted in a situation where most of the people are unable to pay for TV licence and part of the proposal that is before the SABC board is to come up with a mechanism to make sure that we introduce the loyalty programme.
There was also an opinion obtained to look at the possibility and the legality whether it will be legal or not, if we scrap the previous debt. The SABC is looking at that and this is the proposal that has been put before the new board. [Interjections.]
Mr M NHANHA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, I hear you have mentioned incentives and bringing in companies with the necessary technologies. However, I am sure that you will agree with me that the solution to the crisis within the state broadcaster lies within addressing its own financial inefficiency, by confronting the years of mismanagement, referring to it as historical debt. Like the public resistance to the famous e-tolls in Gauteng, the public might react to the ANC’s decision to stand firm on its plan for the SABC to eliminate TV licences and rather introduce a new tax law, a household or a public media levy to restore the systematic financial management, considering wasteful expenditure and inflated salaries, following the historic collapse of considering an e-toll footprint for TVs. Now, how will you ensure this levy will be accepted and/or implemented in the public domain? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES
(Mr M P Mapulane): Hon Deputy Chair, hon Nhanha, the hon member talks about the previous financial inefficiencies. You will recall that in the NA in the previous Parliament, there was an inquiry into the SABC. The inquiry came to the conclusion that certain things were done which was not supposed to have been done. I am not going to sit here and defend what happened in the past, because we all know what happened in the past. Even this Parliament got involved to deal with that.
After that there was a new board, the CEO, management that was appointed to turnaround the SABC. They came up with a turnaround plan. They presented it to Parliament. Parliament agreed with them. There was a bailout, as you know, that was given to the SABC. There were three things that the bailout sought to do. One was to address the historical debt, because the SABC was in debt. Two was to invest in a critical infrastructure. Three was to get compelling content, because, especially in TV, you know that the market is quite competitive. There are new players in the market. There are even the over-the-top, OTTs
Whether that has succeeded or not is something that the board will report on. The board has been steering the ship of the SABC. We told them to look at these issues, whether you have succeeded or not succeeded.
However, the fundamental question about the SABC is the public mandate versus the commercial activities. The SABC gets over 80% of its funds from commercial activities and yet, it is expected to fund the public service mandate, which is more to fund. So, the idea at the point when the Broadcasting Act was enacted was that everybody who owns a TV must pay for their TV license, so that we can recover the public service mandate.
However, this has not been successful. As I say, the SABC owes almost R44 billion.
Now, what is the intervention? In our view, the intervention is through the SABC Bill for the public service mandate of the SABC. We need to protect the SABC as a public asset, so that it can continue to provide public service responsibilities that must be funded by the public.
The modalities are contained in the SABC Bill that we will bring to Parliament, some of which will include the household
levy that we have spoken about, but there are other funding mechanisms. At the end of the day, after Parliament has processed it, it might come out differently from what we proposed.
However, we think that something must be done to protect the SABC, especially the public service mandate of the SABC. Currently, it is going to continue to experience the financial difficulties. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, thank you for the extensive responses that you have been giving. You will not be able to satisfy us all the time. Before we go to the next set of questions, I just want to repeat that there was an occurrence where a member called order and we ruled on that specific point. I just want to remind members that, in terms of the Rules, as soon as there is a Ruling, no member is allowed to again call an order on a ruling that was made by the presiding officer. I am not making it personal; I am just reminding members, because we are experiencing such kind of occurrences more and more.
Ms M O MAKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order: You are such a “squabblist”. You must vacate that seat. You are just squabbling there. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, it will now be Public Enterprises that will ... [Interjections.] We will now call the Deputy Minister of Public Enterprises ... [Interjections.] ... question session. In the same vain, I will request the Chairperson to continue with the presiding of the House.
Ms M O MAKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order: You are such a “squabblist”. You must vacate that seat. You are just squabbling there. [Interjections.]
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, on a point of order: You know, I am not one to distract the order of the House, but I rise on a point of insult. I have been insulted by an hon member. I stand here today as a Member of Parliament.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let us hear the content.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: I would like to give you the context. I stand here today as a Member of Parliament, as the rest of you. Last week and this week ... [Interjections.] ... Last week and this week, we have listened to Ministers who have had the decency to come and answer personally. Now, today, we get the Deputy Minister on the virtual platform. I feel insulted. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. Hon members, I am wondering what this point is all about. It has been a long, long day. I am sure all of us will agree. Without compromising the debate, can we ensure that no unnecessary delays are caused by us as individual MPs and persons. So, I am pleading that we move with a bit more speed.
Question 45:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): Hon
Chairperson of the NCOP and evening to all hon members, in the House and those in the platform. I am joining the 28 other members, who are on the virtual platform. And we did submit apology for the Minister, who has travelled and also myself, I had to be delegated a function whilst I had another event I
was attending in Mpumalanga. So, therefore is not by any chance, an undermining of the House.
The response to hon Mkiva is that the assignment and roles and responsibilities in terms of shareholder oversight of the state-owned entities, is the responsibilities of the President, who at the time will then determine the implementation of the related policy developments.
The President is on record to have said that he is still applying his mind and at an opportune time he would then be giving guidance to some of the functions and responsibilities that he has assigned to the Ministers. So, he will obviously at that particular point in time do so. He does so guided by the Constitution, section 97 and 98 which from time to time, he might remove certain functions from a particular Minister or ministry or department to another department at his own discretion.
And therefore if you go on those sections of the Constitution, it’s how it’s put and I think, when I deal with another questions around the state-owned entities, it will further explain other work that is being done by the Presidential
Advisory Committee on state-owned entities in terms of the restructuring of the entirety of the SOEs at that particular point in time. Thank you very much.
Mr Z MKIVA: No, thank you very much Chair, let me express my appreciation ... [Interjection.]
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Before hon Mkiva ... [Interjection.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mkiva, just a minute, just a minute ... [Interjection.]
Mr C F B SMIT: ... thank you, hon Chairperson... [Interjection.]
Mr Z MKIVA: Yes, I am on the platform but I see that there’s a disruptor on the floor.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... hon Mkiva, please wait for a minute. Let’s hear this point of order. What’s the point of order?
Mr C F B SMIT: ... hon Chair, does the other hon member know that I am standing on a point of order?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What’s the point of order?
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, I am really disturbed you know with the Deputy Minister. I don’t know if he didn’t get the official background for Parliament, because it very disturbing to look into his picture ... [Inaudible.]
... behind, thank you Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I make a plea one more time, let’s try and save as much time as possible. And we can only do that by conducting ourselves in a manner that is fairly positive, that is to ensure progress, hon Mkiva.
Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, thank you for direct explanation Deputy Minister. My follow up question is in relation to the policy. Are there any official policy documents to give effect to the transfer of Electricity Supply Commission, Eskom, to the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy in particular? If not, why not? And if so, what are the relevant details that
are in place, Deputy Minister? Thank you very much Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): Hon
Chairperson, thanks to the follow up by hon Mkiva. Currently, we are ... and I think I will be arising also on another question that is related. That there’s an enabling legislation that has been developed and it’s now towards going to Parliament for tabling and I think, that will then guide as a policy at a particular point. That looks at the entirety of all SOEs, including Eskom.
And obviously this matter will also be responded to by the Presidential Advisory Committee on State-Owned Entities, who also are making certain proposal that I will highlight later in the other question I think that is also related. But, policy is being developed and certainly it will be coming to Parliament for processing. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Minister, ever since the appointment of the new Minister of Electricity, there has been a widespread reports of disharmony of responsibilities with Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy and Public
Enterprises. Can you as the Deputy Minister inform this House, on what has been the major sticking points in the allocation of responsibilities across the three portfolios? And do you, all the Ministers have any solutions to resolve the impasse?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Chairperson, well obviously you don’t give what are the details in the impasse. However, what I know is that the three ministries are being engaged by the President, in terms of his application as I earlier alluded, in terms of responsibilities, that will then go to the new ministry. And the President said he still applying his mind and at a given time, he will definitely be coming in.
The three Ministers are working together. Yes, obviously there will be areas of an engagements, and that sometimes they spillover into the public sphere but they are working together well, they do engage in meetings and there’s no fights that are going on in there. But probably, obviously once responsibilities have been assigned clearly, defined clearly, whatever is the misgivings or things that probably people are reading in the public will disappear, because everyone will
know what is a responsibility of each in terms of policy, functions and whatever the President is going to be deciding and announcing.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Minister, the possible transfer of Eskom, will result in the shifting of financial responsibility to another department. I would like to know what impact would this have on the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy’s budget, if it were to take Eskom as an entity and if the Deputy Minister view the transfer as a relief on the part of the Department Public Enterprise. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Chairperson, well I wouldn’t say it’s a relief hon Hadebe, we were already working very hard to ensure that Eskom comes back as a functional entity, fit for the purpose, after the many things that have happened around it, including the state capture, which we cannot undermine its impact on why it ended up where it is today.
And, also the unbundling of Eskom, we have already started engaging on as public enterprise with the transmission company already established and I am busy now with the distribution
and going towards generation. So, we are working to ensure therefore that Eskom it’s a functional entity. So, there’s no relief element but if it does go, that’s the wisdom and the dictate of the President and wherever it goes, we are still one government, will work and cooperate on whatever goes to the new ministry and whatever remains in the Department of Public Enterprise. So, let’s not predict that element until it’s done.
And the President will then be doing that as I said, that in the transfer of functions section 97, it does give a constitutional guidance and also the legislation that is there, will also be used to unsure that happens harmoniously without any impact that might be negative around the transfer of functions. Thank you very much.
Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the crisis in South Africa is a crisis of the ANC leadership, which is unable to assembly a capable team of people to bring about the necessary stability to Eskom. How will these developments differ from the others which the ministry has attempted before? Also, we would like to know, how come the Minister of Public Enterprises never
come to the NCOP when he is expected? Is he undermining this House? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you, hon Dlamini, the Minister I think has an apology. I hope it was read earlier at the beginning of the meeting. He has travelled because of a particular issue in Transport network, Transnet, which is the locomotive that unfortunately were part of the investigation during the state capture, 1064 of them in the country but we can’t use them. And yet the locomotive industry needs them so that it can enable the economic activity.
So, he is not on holiday, he has travelled to China, to find a way of resolving that issue. That is why is not here in the House today. But, I don’t know when you say he’s never appeared in the NCOP, I don’t have information about that. And I think the accusation might not be as correct but obviously we will follow up on that issue.
The issues of the people we deploy in the boards and also the people we deploy in management; they are competent South Africans. You can look at their credible curriculum vitae,
CVs; that are so impressive, but as you said that sometimes, something else would then occupy space and disrupt them or even affect them. Like the issue of the state capture. And I think if was not the state capture, some of the state entities would not be where they are.
And in the Department of Public Enterprise as you know, out of the six entities, five of them were almost crippled by the state capture. So, the issue of corruption, state capture is a very serious issue, is not a question of leadership, is not issues of governance, yes governance do come here and there, but we think that South Africans are competent and the teams that are put in, we hope will then steer the ship and ensure therefore that all state-owned entities do deliver on their mandate, the developmental agenda of this country, where as a developmental state, we are able then to ensure that there are a catalyst in the economic growth, economic enabling and the transformation of the economy. And providing the services that they ought to do. Thank you very much.
Question 54:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Chairperson, the department has a comprehensive framework that
deals with fraud and corruption issues. There is an approved governance framework that includes, amongst others, whistle- blowing policy, whistle-blowing procedure, and whistle-blowing hotline with various mechanisms of reporting malfeasance, for example, through anonymous calls, SMS, emails, and WhatsApp.
The whistle-blowing policy is supplemented by the fraud and corruption prevention strategy, policy and implementation plan.
The department also has an ethics and expenditure control committee which reports to the executive committee on a quarterly basis and whose duties is to monitor and discuss investigative progress made on reported cases. The committee will subsequently provide guidance and make consequence recommendations to the executive committee on whatever needs to be done.
All the reporting platforms used by the department for potential whistle-blowers have an anonymous reporting option, and the whistle-blowing policy makes it clear that the department will preserve confidentiality and provides guarantee to the whistle-blower that their identity will not be disclosed under any circumstances whatsoever.
Through various awareness initiatives, employees are informed of their right to confidentiality when reporting malfeasance and their protected right as outlined in the Protected Disclosure Act of 2000. The department has therefore taken it upon itself to put in place the necessary measures to protect whistle-blowers whose identities or that of their families has been compromised.
The second part of the question is: How many cases were brought to their attention? A total of five whistle-blowing cases were resolved both internally and through the Office of the Public Service Commission.
The last question says speaks to steps taken in each case. One anonymous case was investigated and uncovered a mild form of sexual harassment which warranted corrective action.
Corrective action was applied in addition to awareness of the sexual harassment policy to Department of Public Enterprises, DPE, officials. One other anonymous case of unethical conduct in relation to the recruitment process was investigated by the Office of the Public Service Commission, a disciplinary process against the official is still unfolding. Three anonymous cases of irregular appointments were investigated,
and the department is currently in the process of implementing the recommendations contained in the report. We hope more of such reports will be uncovered so that we could act on them.
Thank you very much.
Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, it is a pity that the Minister is not here because this question was largely directed at him, but I will try and adapt it so that you can try and respond.
In February 2023, the former chief executive officer, CEO, of Eskom Mr Andre de Ruyter made startling revelations about the extent of corruption in the utility. He further even made more damning allegations of the involvement of two members of the Cabinet involved in criminal cartels stealing R1 billion per month and he brought this to the Minister’s attention. The Minister is on record confirming that indeed Mr de Ryter did bring this to his attention. For the longest time in the select committee meetings and other platforms, I have given the Minister the benefit of doubt, believing his assertions that he was anticorruption and that he will continue the fight against state capture. At the tail end of former President Zuma’s tenure, Minister Gordhan was an inspiration to many of
us for the bravery he displayed in calling him out. I am afraid hon members, like many South Africans, all of that confidence has evaporated.
The Minister’s failure to act on such allegations constitute complicity. Now, Deputy Minister, did the Minister not act on these allegations because they implicated senior members of the Cabinet, and instead chose to prioritise the unity of the ANC? Why should South Africans ever believe his commitment in the fight against corruption? He once told us to join the dots. All those dots now point to him. Will he ever consider resigning? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
just want to point out that as the ANC, we do have programmes and we are very serious about fighting corruption and wherever it happens irrespective of who is involved. And I think that posture will continue to be. We know investigating corruption takes longer because it is a collusion of two people or a group of people that get involved. Until there is fallout between the two or the two groups or syndicates, it is only when revelations will come to the fore. It does not mean that we will then cover anybody or protect anybody. I think the ANC
policies on these speak for themselves. South Africans believe in us as the ANC that corruption is something that we will not tolerate.
However, on the issues that you are raising in relation to the former CEO of Eskom, having raised the matter with the Minister of Public Enterprises, and also the Minister not acting or acting, we don’t know. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, is taking care of the process of the matter itself, and the former CEO has appeared. The Minister was supposed to appear this week and has requested postponement of the hearing so that he could also personally appear before the Scopa so that he could answer for himself.
He will be able to answer some of the issues you are raising within parliamentary systems that are there. The Scopa has an appointment with the Minister, and that’s when he will answer. So, any consideration of anybody resigning before they answer for themselves, I don’t think it’s a matter to be entertained on this platform, but let’s wait for those responses. Thank you very much.
Ms M DLAMINI: In light of the important role which whistle- blowers play in raising the alarm against unethical acts and
practices in government departments, which measures has the Minister put in place in his department to ensure that their disclosures result in prosecutions, and that they are protected from harm?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): Hon
Dlamini, as I was responding to the question in its length, I did indicate the policies and systems that are in place that provides for anonymity through the SMSes, emails, and WhatsApp. I am not going to repeat them. I also spoke about the fraud and corruption prevention strategy with its policy and the implementation plan that the department has. In addition, the department has ethics and expenditure control committee, which I also alluded to earlier. I then gave examples of reliance on the Protected Disclosures Act as and when the need arises. I have alluded to a number of a few cases that are there. I think those systems are watertight and we think we don’t need to put any extra measures, definitely to encourage more whistle-blowers to come forward. No one in the department has been exposed because of the tightness of the systems. Therefore the staff at the Department of Public Enterprises are free to report so that we can stamp out any
form of corruption or wrongdoing that might be sighted. Thank you very much.
Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks, Chair, we are comfortable with the responses of the Deputy Minister. There is no need for us to raise any thing.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, on 11 February 2023, Minister Lamola said, and I am quoting:
We are working hard to tighten the laws to protect whistle-blowers. We are confident that the media will be an important partner in this process, and we need to work together to ensure that the government and companies implicated by whistle-blowers are held accountable.
It goes further to say that:
The media can also continue exposing those victimised good citizens and blow the whistle on corrupt and unethical practices.
Now, Deputy Minister, have you noticed any changes or have you received any proposals from the Department of Justice or Minister Lamola since 11 February 2023 that suggests greater protection for whistle-blowers? If not, will you commit to engage with the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services on this Matter? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, hon Du Toit, we are aware of those particular changes that the Minister has proposed and the processes are unfolding at the Cabinet level towards them being acceptable by the Cabinet. At a given time, the Minister will come out to say since February 2023, this is now finalized and these are the measures that going to be put in place to protect the whistle-blowers. Indeed, whatever were the gaps realized, including some of them being exposed and killed in certain parts of our country, obviously necessitated the Minister of Justice to then begin to react by proposing those measures. We therefore hope that there will have to come a time when those measures will protect everybody and ensure that whistle-blowers are not exposed, harassed, and intimidated as is the case or killed for that particular matter because our measures were not as tight. Hoping
therefore that at the point when the Minister announce, we will know. As to when, that’s what I will have to follow up through the Ministry so that we are able to say that this matter is urgent. I think we also have to move faster because a lot of complaints from whistle-blowers are known and have been published, and it is our concern all of us as South Africans that they are not as highly protected. Thank you very much.
Question 46:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Through you, Chairperson. Eskom is currently experiencing high levels of generation plant failure, which is resulting in load shedding in South Africa. Despite this, Eskom remains the dominant power utility in Southern Africa and Africa as a whole, due to its sheer size, relative to the other power utilities and technological advancements.
Similarly, the transmission and distribution systems of Eskom and the municipalities in South Africa are more expansive and supply orders of magnitude which consists of more customers than any other African country. I think you all know that, the expansive programme of the former President, Nelson Mandela,
of connecting every village, every household, every informal settlement and every house in South Africa, is at 95%.
Therefore, these customers are as expansive as in any African country. If you go to the other African countries, the situation is not the same as here. Generation strategy as Eskom unbundles from a vertically integrated utility into independent entities, is to support South Africa’s economic growth and its objective. However, I am not going to read everything on the table, to indicate as the table is summarising.
Concerning the installed generation capacity and the electricity demands in some of the countries in the Southern African Development Community, SADC. We have looked at few countries like Angola, Botswana, DRC, Eswatini, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe as comparison to South Africa. Obviously, because of the magnitude of the customers that we have in South Africa, and having expanded the network to reach almost everybody, we have a capacity shortage of 3 585.
However, when you look at other countries, it is only Angola, Tanzania and Zambia who have an access capacity. Angola with
2 000, and then Mozambique is at 106, Tanzania at 128 capacity and Zambia at 388. The rest of others have constraints which are lower than what is in South Africa. Just to give an example, Botswana is 39 capacity shortage, which is why they will not experience the similar challenges as we have in South Africa. It’s just that it’s a way we have to run about it because, it’s a question that has been submitted to Parliament, and it will then indicate on that graph.
Eskom has significantly reduced its export to its neighbouring countries due to the power constraints being experienced in South Africa. This is a source of frustration to those countries that I have indicated upon. They have shortages and have relied on us, but we are no longer able to supply, several of which have traditionally dependent on Eskom, for a significant fortune of their power requirements.
Despite this, Eskom remains the pre-eminent utility in Africa, and it is well respected at the technical level, by its international peers. An indication of this, is a large number of study tours undertaken by power utilities to Eskom on an
annual basis to undergo training and obtain and obtain technical support. As I conclude, Chair, the current performance of the conflict is significantly low.
Eskom’s recovery plan aims to improve the reliability and the predictability of the fleet, so that, along with the Just Energy Transition, JET, it will gradually decarbonise the generations, so that Eskom will again be able to support South Africa’s economy and growth objectives. Thank you very much.
Ms L C BEBEE: Through you, Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, thank you for your comprehensive response to my question. Hon Deputy Minister, are the partnerships between Eskom, the other SADC and other African countries in the energy sector, and how are they assisting South Africa in terms of addressing the current energy crisis? Thank you very much, Deputy Minister, I know that you’ll answer me correctly so that everybody can hear what you are going to say.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Through you, Chairperson, thank you very much, hon Bebhee. Yes, we have what we call the SADC pool purchase. Those countries that have access, would then sell whatever is the
excess into the pool. Any country that needs to buy from the pool, will then be able to go and purchase. Furthermore, as you can see the graph, there are only four countries that have access in the SADC region.
Their excess is very little, in comparison to what we are asking as South Africa. Our energy availability factor is almost at 4 000 in demand, and those countries can only pull together less than 4 000, as you can see, hence our own challenges of load shedding, whilst we are going through rebuilding and also ensuring that the reliability and the energy availability is there.
Therefore, SADC remains available for us. However, whatever we get from them is not enough to help us out of the situation.
Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Through you, Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, given the current challenges at Eskom, whereby it is alleged that a criminal syndicate is operating behind the scenes to force Eskom supply chain to procure from certain suppliers. I would like to know, how is the department plans to bring about
the end of this racketeering, and restore Eskom to its once market leading position? Thank you, hon Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
think I welcome the question, hon Hadebe. It is true that those criminal syndicates do exists. The police have established a specialised unit that is deployed, particularly to Mpumalanga where majority of the coal mines are, so that they can be able to go deeper in effecting arrests, and ensuring that the criminal syndicate is ended. It is there, in many forms and varieties.
For an example, I met with an original equipment manufacturers who were telling me that, the syndicates have come to them and said, don’t allow Eskom to come directly to you. They will be an in-between between them and Eskom. For a part that costs R10 000, they will then charge Eskom R300 000, or for a part that costs R1 000, they would charge it R19 000 or R20 000, for that matter. So, even the figures that have been inflated in the name of localisation, are bearing and scary, as a result of where the syndicates operate.
I then asked the original equipment manufacturers, why are they not just ignoring them and sell? They said that they are threatening their lives. They visit them even in their houses and ask them if they want to die, and if they want to die, so this is it. Therefore, we hope that a lot of these reports can reach the police. I have also encouraged them really, to report them to the police.
Also, as the last response, we are looking at Rotek. Rotek is a company that is owned by Eskom. It used to be doing maintenance for Eskom, and it has been doing well all these years. Now it is just sitting there, idling, because something happened during the state capture when certain officials of Eskom resigned and formed their own company. It then became a service provider outsourced, and no longer using Rotek.
Therefore, we are now beginning to engage on how to repurpose Rotek and begin to go into this particular issue to see if these contracts cannot be terminated.
If not, then Rotek must be ready to be a choice of a service provider internally, and not be outsourced to the other people who are charging these extra amounts. Therefore, we hope that, with the police there, and us activating Rotek, we can tighten
up the screws so that the maintenance of the infrastructure is done internally and professionally. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Through you, hon Chairperson, with the Treasury having barred Eskom from new investments and new generation as part of the debt takeover announcement in the February budget, the market dominance of Eskom in generation of both local and regional electricity needs it’s all but over. Why then is the government continuing to rely on an outdated integrated resource plan that proposes new investments in nuclear build programmes and gas operated electricity generation? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
think you would know that the 2019 energy mix integrated energy strategy does call for all use of available energy sources that can be made available. That includes gas, nuclear, renewables and also coal, until the transition is managed towards low carbon type of systems. So, we are following the policy of government. This is not nothing new, it is a strategy that was adopted in 2019.
So, don’t look at it as if it’s new. Probably, the focus has been on one source of energy, probably coal, and we have neglected the others. As you know that we have one nuclear plant in South Africa, Unit 1 and Unit 2 of Koeberg, they are now under maintenance, and soon, they will be coming up the streams refurbished for additional few years, once those repurposing has happened. So, we will be looking at all use of gas whilst definitely transiting, but transiting within managing the crisis, so that load shedding ends.
However, at the same time, transiting knowing that we have obligations that we have signed. We need to go to the renewables. Even when we have transited, the renewables will still need a low base nuclear and coal. We will then have to look at the technologies that are available out there. The theme coal technology will then have to be looked at, so that we are able to be compliant, and so that the low carbon emissions is the target that we are still able to reach.
Furthermore, we should be taking on the load shedding, and still be able to provide services for South Africa, and for its economy to grow. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe womnyango, uyabona yini u-Eskom ubonakala ulahlekelwa yizizumbulu zezimali futhi awubonakali uzokwazi ...
English:
... to repay its loan without the government’s support, and it is still unable to guarantee secure supply of electricity to the country ...
IsiZulu:
... nokwenza lokho kwenze umnotho ungakuboni ukukhula. Uyawabona amanye amazwe esingakwazi ukuhlangana nawo ukuletha uzinzo emandleni lapho lo mnyango ubukeka uhluleka ...
English:
... to service the basic needs of the South Africans?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Through you, Chairperson. I think that all programmes are adhered to, to ensure that we fix what went wrong in Eskom, and including, the old power stations that are just about to go out of service because of the decommissioning. We are also
looking at other alternative methods that other nations have also looked at, when they were hit by this type of crisis, like India. We are taking lessons from them. It is a crisis that we are acknowledging, and it’s a crisis that we know it exists.
Furthermore, we can assure that all these programmes will definitely yield results soon, where we are able to reduce the load shedding intensity from where it is, to lower levels until we are going to end load shedding. I am not going to put timeframes here. The Minister of Electricity and Eskom have met, and now they have reconciled their timetables, and I think that they have already articulated on them. We will definitely be able to get out of this crisis soon, and the South African are being assured of that.
Yes, it’s a painful process and a painful exercise, including the monies that Eskom needs. We will then be looking at that, as we are unbundling Eskom. We will be sitting down with new companies to see where the money is needed, where the money is going, and be able to perfect the service delivery in South Africa on energy availability. Thank you very much.
Question 41:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): The
Presidential State-Owned Enterprises Council, PSEC, is mandated by the President to determine the viability of state- owned entities, SOEs, by determining which SOE should be repurposed, consolidated or disposed of, and assist in stabilising SOEs in crisis. The PSEC has not made final recommendations as yet on which SOEs should be repurposed, consolidated or disposed of, as your question asks. Once that information has been finalised, it will be indicated.
The PSEC has developed criteria to determine which SOEs should be repurposed, consolidated or disposed of. In assessing the status and viability of SOEs, two of the core considerations that need to be determined are, firstly, whether or not a particular SOE is strategic; and secondly, whether or not a particular SOE is in crisis.
Four conditions need to be met for an entity to be deemed strategic. The conditions are as follows. One, the function provided by the SOE is not adequately or appropriately provided by the private sector, and if indeed there is such,
then obviously it will then be determined whether it continues for repurposing or whether we are disposing of it.
There needs to be a natural monopoly in the industry or sector. The SOE operates in it. Disruption of the SOE’s activities will have a high economic impact. Five, the SOE’s function is critical for developmental purposes, for the developmental agenda and for state security.
On the other hand, in determining whether or not an SOE is in crisis, both financial and nonfinancial considerations are assessed. Financial indications that point to an entity being in crisis include, the entity carrying an unsustainable debt burden; two, the entity being unable to make payments on their debts when they are due; and three, the entity having a negative cash flow or negative equity over a sustained period.
The nonfinancial indicators that point to an entity being in crisis include, the entity having experienced serious governance breaches, the presence of procurement corruption within the entity or the entity continually being ineffectively managed, thus continually exhibiting operational nondelivery.
The PSEC is in the process of evaluating all these SOEs in line with the criteria to determine whether they should be repurposed, consolidated or disposed of. Any further announcements on the PSEC’s final recommendations will be made by the Presidency. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Minister, knowing that state capture has been taking place for years and years, and seeing the impact of state capture and mismanagement in all SOEs and on the economy, why would you say has government taken so long to get to the decision of considering which of these SOEs to privatise, and when will the PSEC be finished with their report? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
think they are so advanced towards concluding, which is why from the preliminary report we are able to deduce as to what they are doing. However, they are outstanding on the recommendations going forward.
As I will also be dealing with it in another question — they have also recommended the establishment of a holding company — I will then give the details on it because there is a question
directed to it, to indicate that work is almost at conclusion. As soon as they are done, the President will definitely announce. However, the President is also on record as having said that by the time this work is done, after elections the Department of Public Enterprises will be no more because in its place there will be a replacement, not of a department but whatever is recommended by the PSEC, which will then be able to tell us ... how to do. We are taking lessons from China, including Singapore and South Korea, that also did the very same thing of re-evaluating their SOEs and then repurposing them. In repurposing them, they are now back to life and they are really responding to the needs of the country. Thank you very much.
Mr M NHANHA: It’s interesting that my microphone was fixed quickly when I made that statement. Anyway, Deputy Minister, President Cyril Ramaphosa has made comments to the effect that SOEs will be transferred to line ministries and the Department of Public Enterprises will be removed as a stand-alone executive authority, and you have just confirmed that.
The problem is that transferring SOEs to line ministries is simply kicking the can down the road. We cannot afford further
experiments aligned to an already failed ideology. Deputy Minister, I have on numerous times in the past in this House called for the dissolution of the Department of Public Enterprises. Thank goodness that sanity seems to have prevailed.
Again, in the past I have made the point in this House that it is about time that government counts its losses, exits business and allows business to do what they know best, and that is to run profitable businesses free of the ANC-aligned elite.
Why does the Minister not act swiftly to hasten the exit of government from business and allow business to take over SOEs? After all, the Deputy Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies, who came before you, reluctantly admitted in this House about two hours ago that the privatisation of the Post Office in Japan has worked. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): The
ideological failure is not a correct statement. The developmental agenda, particularly of us as South Africa, is fundamental. There are areas where the markets are failing. I
think we just have to agree and accept that where markets fail, the state has a role to play in the economic activity and intervene by way of ensuring that SOEs protect the vulnerable, the poor and the working class. Therefore, I don’t agree with your ideological posture which you said is failing.
Let’s take a country like South Korea. They still have SOEs and they are doing well economically, where the state continuously provides certain services. However, if you take them to the private sector they will be too expensive for the ordinary masses. I don’t think you are calling for all services to be provided for by the private sector, because the private sector chases profits and in the end they will not be able to protect the ordinary ... and then those ...
Malaysia is another country, including Singapore and even France and Germany in Europe. Go there and study their models. They still have those SOEs that provide particular services. I don’t know which ideological element you are now beginning to criticize, and say it’s wrong and old, whereas other people still believe it and South Africa ought to believe in it. The developmental agenda has not been fulfilled in South Africa,
and we will continue on that course and in that direction. Thank you.
Ms T P MAMOROBELA: Chair, I am satisfied with the response by the Deputy Minister. For now, I don’t have a question on that one.
Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, can we take the question of hon Lehihi?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, but you are late. I am already on Question 55.
Ms M DLAMINI: Can you please allow us? There is only one Chairperson. I don’t know the others ... why there’s a choir. Chair, can we just quickly take ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt.
Ms M DLAMINI: The poor performance by almost all SOEs should not surprise South Africans, as this Minister, along with the ruling party in its entirety, has deliberately weakened the
state in a dramatic fashion and killed off any aspirations for a state-led developmental programme in this country.
Deputy Minister, which recent steps of interventions have you taken to ensure that the private sector will not occupy SOEs? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
think when the report by the PSEC comes on board around repurposing, we will be able to indicate where the repurposing will happen and then be able to assure you that, obviously as I said earlier, the developmental state agenda is continuing and will continue, and some of the SOEs, whilst they are repurposed under a new environment, will therefore ensure that they perform to the maximum with efficiency. Then things that had occurred, such as state capture, will not be allowed as the systems will have been tightened.
So I think the commission is doing well and I think once the report is released by the President it will provide indicators on which one will definitely be protected from the private sector. I think I have already alluded to that work. Let’s just wait for the report to be released. Thank you very much.
Question 55:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Nhanha, the answer is very short. The Minister heard from the media about the poisoning of the chief executive officer, CEO, of Eskom. He then approached the Board to ask them if they were reported on the matter and what they have done. The Board of Eskom then informed the Minister that the CEO had indicated that he will conduct a private investigation on this matter. So, unfortunately we do not have that report as to what is revealed in the private investigation and he is no more in Eskom. I do not know whether he will be making it public at the given point. Therefore, we cannot answer to that question, but the Board had given us that answer at the time when the Minister acted.
Mr M NHANHA: Deputy Minister, I do realise that Andre de Ruyter is no longer in the employ of Eskom but I will add the tail end of my question tell you where the danger lies despite the fact that he is not at Eskom anymore. As you now know that the information now points to the fact that Mr de Ruyter was poised by coffee from a coffee machine that was recently serviced and the deadly poison is apparently now known. If
this is true and there is such sufficient information that could lead to an arrest, why is there so little progress? What has the Minister done to ensure that his colleague, Minister Cele does not sit on his hands and give this serious case the serious attention it deserves? Here comes the point I made earlier. How can any serious candidate for the position of Eskom CEO have confidence that he or she won’t be targeted by doing the right thing to root out corruption and turning the utility around? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, it seems like hon Nhanha knows some things that we do not know and I am not going to be responding to speculation as such. I don’t even know whether Minister Cele has a case, he knows, hon Nhanha there and because Andre de Ruyter had even refused to be vetted throughout the term of office and said he does not trust the state apparatus. Now, when the matter of poisoning happens he also refused and said he will go private and I will go to the private sector. So, let him release the report so that if indeed there are people known who have done that wrongdoing, then let the report indicate and we will then see if the Minister is sitting on the report Minister of Police if there is any Minister sitting
on the report. For now, I think it is just speculation, hon Chair. I have already answered that question that he decided to go private because he seems not to be trusting the state. Thank you.
Ms M DLAMINI: Thank you, whether the Deputy Minister is of the opinion that the attempted poisoning of the former CEO of the Eskom was staged in order to capitalise on fear. If so, why?
If not, why not? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, hon Dlamini, because we do not have the contents of the outcome of the report. However, any poisoning is serious obviously on any South African by anybody and that needs to be condemned and then discouraged so that if probably it was these syndicates that are operating inside and outside of Eskom maybe wanting something that he was blocking. Any other person that comes in, we need to ensure that they are protected so that we root out corruption. We root it out so that Eskom is free of corruption and we are able to have the service offered by Eskom being provided for electricity availability, but obviously that matter will be dependent on what is contained in the report.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, I would like to know whether the department regards Mr de Ruyter as a whistle-blower? If yes, what protection is the department giving to Mr de Ruyter and other possible whistle-blowers in combating the criminal elements at Eskom? Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, hon Hadebe, I would not know whether Andre de Ruyter is a whistle-blower or not. He has appeared before Parliament already. He has given a report which is questionable also under circumstances. He is refusing to reveal certain information that he has been asked to reveal and so he is keeping everybody in the dark. A whistle-blower will go out and really reveal any wrongdoing by someone without fear but obviously with an understanding that should be any threats on him, he will definitely be enjoying whatever privileges of whistle-blowers that we have, and with the strengthening of whistle-blower protection that the Minister of Justice will be announcing. As a South African, definitely the state is obliged to do so. But for now, I do not know whether he is a whistle-blower or not. I just hope what he
says is an allegation. He can reveal the name, the people and the syndicates. Thank you.
Ms W NGWENYA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister in light of admission by the former head of the Eskom that he reported the matter to the police. Was there any expectation from him for you to act further and if so, what exactly was he expected to do and what did you do? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela):
Thank you very much, hon Ngwenya. When the Minister wanted to act, he was in the employment of Eskom. Rightfully so, the Minister acted, and the Board came and said that they decided to give the case to a private investigation. I do not know whether he has already opened the case based on the information that he might have got from the private investigation. So now it is out of our control because he is no longer part of the employ. But he decided not to use internal processes. So, if a person denies your internal process and does not want to recognise them, does not want to use them, it becomes a very difficult issue for a Minister then to come in and deal with the issues that are found in the
report. However, we do not have such a report up to now. Thank you very much.
Question 47:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): Hon
Chairperson, the President indicated at the state of the nation address that PSEC, which is a Presidential State-Owned Enterprises Council has recommended that South Africa adopt a cenralised shareholder and I think a did allude to it in the previous question.
The central shareholder model for the management and oversight of the SOEs, which itself once is in place is going to be replacing the Department of Public Enterprises as earlier alluded. In furtherance of this model PSEC has recommended that South Africa should create a holding company called Holdco to house strategic state-owned companies. Those that we say they remain strategic and they ought to be protected and they will all go to that holding company and then they will be commissioned. That will then oversee the company and only reporting and accounting to the President.
The main benefits of a centralise shareholder model for the SOEs management on oversight are: Firstly, separation of the state ownership functions from its policy making and regularity or supervisory functions to help avoid or minimise potential conflicts of interest.
Secondly, minimising of the scope for [political inteference and bringing greater professionalism to the state ownership role by puling specialised capabilities and scares resources.
Thirdly, promotion of greater coherence and consistency in applying corporate governance standards and in exercising state ownership role across all SOEs.
Fourthly, to manage state assets in a way that protect shareholder value. And lastly, to achieve greater transparency and accountability in SOEs operation through better oversight and performance monitoring. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms T C MODISE: As a Deputy Minister is aware there has been some policies suggestion on the need for reconfiguration of the governance and the operating model of the state-owned enterprises. What is the position and the progress in this
regard? And how investigate reconfiguration going to enhance efficiency, transparency and accountability and a good governance in the state-owned companies? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): As
I said hon Modise in the previous questions that there is a legislation that will be able to speculate effectively on some of the issues that you are raising of good governance of operating models, efficiency, accountability by the holding company that is going to be established. And that legislation will also indicate how the Holdco will be functioning and accounting even to Parliament itself and accounting to the nation. And this legislation will be coming in to Parliament and I think at the point when it comes in probably it might be tax 76 hopefully I hope so that both Houses can also look at it whether it does answer to some of the issues we have seen and experienced. The bad ones in particular and whether the good ones are kept in the legislation and further good ones are being proposed. That will really give a relief to everybody and assurance to everybody that now we are in the right direction with state-owned entities that are going to be focusing on the developmental agenda and the aspirations of the country towards achieving that goal. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Minister, thank for the answer. But I think what happen now is you responding to our questions it’s a fact that it is clear that the Deputy Minister and the Ministry has failed in their mandate to play an effective oversight role over the SOEs. The fact that the holding company will be created to play that oversight to fulfill that role make your role null and void. And Deputy Minister if you can perhaps tell South Africa if you agree with the fact that it’s the Minister and the Deputy Minister fault that SOEs have failed dismally in South Africa as a result of failure of playing an effective oversight role and leaving SOEs for almost 30 years to hang itself to the extent where they need to close down some of them. Thank you, sir.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela) I
wouldn’t agree with you that any Minister or Deputy Minister has failed in this instance. Let’s look at the external factors that you are avoiding and you do not want to confront and they are there in the reports. Go and read the state capture by Zondo Commission. It will reveal all that has really gone wrong in some of the state-owned entities to a level where they went to us collapsed. And we are here reviving them, preparing them and ensuring that by the time
the Holdco come there will be fit for the purpose and will be inheriting something that is now on the positive growth and obviously we still have to deal with a lot of challenges and the people that they have wronged and did wrong things in those activities.
So, you can’t blame a Ministry and then you can’t blame the Deputy Minister or a Minister in this particular instance. It’s unfair and I don’t know what assessment did you do to then arrived at that particular conclusion because you are not even providing it here except just remarks as you did.
And I will then not agree with you but those external factors are serious. And then beside state capture and corruption there is an issue that is confronting the neglect in the maintenance generally of the state-owned entities but that maintenance is becoming very expensive with vandalisation of the infrastructure, the theft of the cabling and the scrap matters being the beneficiaries with the law that has even scrap matters for six months to prevent it from now but it continuously unabated. South Africans no longer have fear of just stealing. And is a societal issue. And I would not then blame society and say all these things are happening because
society is quite. But we ought to then work together as a country as people to really and sure therefore that going forward all those things do not happen and we are able to prevent it from happening and we are able to have state–owned entities that are fit for the purpose that are able to realise our aspirations. Thank you very much.
Ms M DLAMINI: Deputy Minister, almost all South African state- owned companies are characterised by growing debts, dysfunctional management, no consequence management and this has been going on for almost the decade and a half now. All these indicative of a deep problem of political incompetence on the part of the ruling party. Does the Deputy Minister - and we will protect this answer, agree that the only solution left to truly enhance efficiency is to remove the ANC government from power as it is responsible for the rapid degeneration of state-owned enterprises? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): I
will not agree with you. The ANC remains a relevance body in society. A tool that South Africans still need to really peruse the agenda of ensuring a better life for all. And the ANC is still there to ensure that whatever wrong doing that
might have happened by a few individuals not everybody in the ANC were able to deal with that. The implementation of the Zondo Commission is what you will then begin to see some few months going down the line. And then we will then ensure therefore that we can see that we are acting on any person in the ANC who might have done wrong doing. But then to brush everybody in the ANC as like everybody who has stolen it’s not correct and is not what we want to tell South Africans to be. The ANC therefore, will not agree with your conclusion.
Yes, there have been challenges. We do not hide because we cannot mask the truth. We need to tell the truth where wrong things have happened. And we are able to do so. And also the dysfunctionality is created by individuals we trust and put in and later they then turned to do certain things and they got captured along the way. And obviously those individuals will face the music if indeed identified and then pointed to have done that.
The other debt obviously there has been under budgeting of the state-owned entities. If you compare to what other nations have done when they were in trouble other nations repurpose them as already indicating in this report of the PSEC that the
President will BE publishing it once its finalised. And in the repurposing they were able to reinvigorate and repurpose them and then they are now hard of the enabling participants in the growth of the economy in those particular nations. And they themselves had faced similar challenges and there would be a period when such happens but what is it that you do with whatever has happened to correct and ensure therefore that everything is line up for a better future and a brighter future. Thank you very much.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Deputy Minister, it might be useful for you to also note in this House that Minister Zikalala has not attend any portfolio committee meeting in Parliament since his appointment on 6 March and we are very concerned about it. We might have start asking for prove of life for this Minister but anyway let’s get back to the business of the day.
The reconfiguration Deputy Minister that you are talking about of governance model of the SOEs will be an exercise in futility. As long as the state continues to fit the Bill for their inefficiencies has the department develop a private public partnership policy for state-owned enterprises that
excludes the ANC align elites and their families? And if so, what are the details, please. Thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (Mr K O Bapela): You
do not develop a law or a policy to exclude certain part of a group of a nation. What that policy does is a policy for all the people of South Africa and anyone can participate in it. And therefore, definitely there are finalisation towards a policy that will then guide on the Public-Private Partnership, PPP. The Minister of Finance will also be bringing some amendments on the Public-Private Partnership that will enable the opening of whatever bottlenecks that are there for investment to flow in on the PPP models.
But also there is another policy-bot. They are also looking at it to strengthen it so that we can allow for the participation of the private sector. We really need private sector at this moment and we are also learning from other nations that are similar to us - developing nations that have succeeded when they repurpose not to fail. They are repurposing to win and we are also going to repurposing for a win and then we will definitely win to ensure that state-owned entities are the pride of the nation and they are beginning to rise from whatever has happened in the past. And one has very much confident that we will definitely pass this path towards the brighter side of all the things to happen. Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Just to remind members, I know that members know the Rules. But just to remind members that we must not abuse point of order. Let’s have a bit of improvement in so far as this is concerned. Now if you look at the Rules: Rule 69 on a point of order says the followings: Firstly, a delegate may raise a point of order at any time during the proceedings of the House by stating that he or she is rising on a point of order. The second point is 692 says that a point of order must be confined only to a matter of parliamentary procedure or practice or a matter relating to unparliamentary conduct as defined and must be raised immediately when the allege bridge of order occurs. The third point is 693 that the delegates raising the point of order must refer to the exact Rule. I am rising on Rule 15 or whatever and so on or at least the principle or subject matter on which the point of order is based. I hope that this will assist for a long way towards assisting members to manage these things properly.
Hon member, I would like to take this opportunity to thanks the Minister, who was here with us, the two Deputy Ministers, all permanent and special delegates for availing themselves for the sitting. And lastly, hon delegates there had been no other business. That concludes our business for the day. The Council is now adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 18:56.
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