Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 30 Mar 2023

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
THURSDAY, 30 MARCH 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVIINCES
Watch video here: Plenary (Hybrid)

The Council met at 14:00

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: At this point hon members, I would like to take this opportunity to note the recognition of Her Excellency ?Xuu Esau, fondly known as Ouma Katrina on her recognition as someone who has made a contribution to the preservation of the N|uu language. This recognition and honour was given to her by the University of Cape Town. Having done so, hon members, let me remind all of us that the rules as well as processes apply in this hybrid sitting of the NCOP.

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

The hybrid sitting constitutes the sitting of the NCOP. That delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the sitting of the NCOP. That for the purposes of the court, all delegates who are logged in the virtual platform shall be considered present. That delegates must switch on their microphones if they want to speak. That delegates should ensure that their microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted.

That all delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system. That delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones. That all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chatroom.

That the interpreting system is active. That permanent delegates, members of the Executive, Special Delegates and SA Local Government Association, Salga representatives on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpreting facility on the gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpreting services. Permanent delegates and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpreting gadgets on their desks to access the interpreting facilities.

Furthermore, in accordance with Council Rule 2291, there will be no Notices of Motions or of Motion without Notice. Hon members, before I proceed to Questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome hon President and the premiers who may be present. We have just emerged from a sitting where we had a number of issues and engagements. So, if the premiers are around we welcome them. There are also MECs and members of the provincial legislatures here, especially the Mpumalanga delegates in the House. We welcome everyone.

Further, I would like to read the rules relating to questions. The time to a reply hon President to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed, as members know. A delegate who has asked an initial question will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask the supplementary question. The time for asking supplementary question is two minutes and the time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question. I now call on the President to respond to respond to Question 1. This question was initially asked by hon S J Mohai but hon Nyambi will stand in for him.

QUESTIONS TO THE PRESIDENT

Question 1:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon members and ... Should I press that? Sorry. I repeat, Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon members and delegates present, it is an honour to be amongst you once again and thank you for the welcome.

Government is committed to fighting poverty and this we have demonstrated in a number of ways, initiatives and interventions. We are committed to providing support to those who are poor and also those who are unemployed, and we see this as a core responsibility of the government. The implementation of the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, grant that was introduced during our most difficult period, COVID, has been one of the important achievements of this administration. It has lifted millions of South Africans above the food poverty line at a time of great economic disruption due to COVID-19 and it has made a significant difference in the lives of a number of people in our country.

Social grants support economic growth from the bottom up, enables business activity and strengthens social solidarity and stability. According to research that has been published, approximately 50% of purchases that are made by grant

recipients ... buy food. Informal traders in various parts of the country have reported to researchers that the SRD grant stimulated customer spending, provided capital to purchase stock and enabled new businesses to be initiated. As we have announced, the grant will be maintained until March 2024, while the economy continues to recover from the impact of the pandemic.

Various options are being explored, taking into account affordability, financing options and the efficacy in addressing poverty. We are looking at how we move beyond the SRD grant. There have been calls for the basic income grant to be introduced in our country, which will support a number of people, and that is being considered. There is concerted effort within government to link current beneficiaries to various economic opportunities such as skills development, sustainable livelihood programmes and job creation initiatives.

Some of the economic opportunities include the Expanded Public Works Programme and the Presidential Employment Stimulus in addition to partnerships with the private sector, to increase opportunities for the unemployed to access other sources of income. South Africa already provides extensive social security support through grants that reach more than 46% of the population.

As we work to build the economy and create employment, we remain committed to finding appropriate mechanisms to support all those people who need assistance from the state within our available resources. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, Chairperson. President, thanks for your elaborate answer. Hon President, as you have repeatedly said, the fight against hunger, poverty and unemployment cannot be won unless we grow the economy and create employment. This brings into sharp focus two interrelated questions, hon President.

Firstly, what policy measures have or is government considering to put in place to incentivise the acceleration and sustainability of growth of small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs? That is the first part.

Secondly, is there any integrated government-wide system to monitor and track the beneficiaries of the SRD grant who get absorbed into various sectors of our economy?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Chairperson. Of course, we have often said that in the end what will deal more effectively with poverty, inequality and unemployment in our country is the creation of jobs and growing investments.
However, in the course of doing so, government itself is embarking on a number of initiatives to support small and medium enterprises, as well as to support small farmer people throughout the country, particularly in the rural areas.

We are setting up a fund, which I announced during Sona, where we will get the private and public sectors to contribute money towards. We already have a number of other assistance measures, including funds, that are dispersed. The good thing is that a number of provinces have been embarking on a number of initiatives themselves through the allocation that they get, to support small and medium enterprises.

I can think of a number of provinces like Gauteng, KwaZulu- Natal, the Eastern Cape and a number of others, that have started many initiatives to support small and medium enterprises. These are incentives. In the end, the support to small and medium enterprises is not only in the form of money or funds. It is also in the form of opening up markets, giving them opportunities and opening all those opportunities for

them to be able to trade, to produce and to sell their products.

Through the SRD process, we are obviously looking at the future; a future that will enable us to track those who are beneficiaries and where they end up. As we said, as it is now, the fund was introduced during COVID and it was really as an immediate assistance measure. As we move forward, we should be able to put tracking systems in place that will be able to see how those people who are being assisted are able to get skills, are able to become entrepreneurs and are able to get permanent jobs.

All those processes will be put in place properly. Right now, that system isn’t in place because this is a new grant, and as we move forward looking at a future where there will be more permanent assistance, we should be able to do so. Thank you.

Mr M R BARA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr President, on Tuesday in this House, the ANC used its majority to force through the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill, giving more money to public servants, to political parties and to failed state- owned enterprises. A substantial portion of the money to fund this came from savings made in the Department of Social

Development, specifically monies that were budgeted for the SRD grant, and not paid out.

Mr President, your ANC government is taking R3,7 billion from people living in poverty to fund their elaborate state structures that feed the ANC and its top deloyees. Mr President, how will you in good conscience sign this Bill into law?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We always sign Bills in good conscience because those Bills that finally come to the President’s desk are Bills that have gone through the National Assembly and the NCOP. So, in that regard, the President does not take any chances. He does so on good advice from members who are elected to represent our people here. So, with regard to that, we do it in good conscience. If however, we find that a Bill is either unconstitutional ... we send it to the Constitutional Court. So, that is the answer to your question, dear delegate and member. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon President. We will proceed to the supplementary question by hon Moletsane of the EFF. Is he ... virtual ... or is he not in the sitting? With it being the case that hon Moletsane is

not here, we will proceed with the follow-up question by hon Hadebe of the IFP.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, hon President, with reference to the International Monetary Fund’s, IMF’s, projection that spending on temporary welfare grants could contribute to the Republic’s budget deficit widening to 6,5% of gross domestic product, GDP, in the fiscal year, would the government regard it as sustainable that these welfare grants continue to be offered, given the warning by the IMF?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. As I have said, we are considering a number of options and we are considering a number of views. The views that we take into account obviously come from our own people and from organisations that represent our people. Of course, we will also listen to the views that are expressed by financial institutions as well. So, all these matters are currently under consideration.

Our people are living in poverty, our people are unemployed, and as I initially said, that is a primary consideration that we need to have in mind. At the same time, so as not to be

reckless, we have to look at everything that we do within our affordable means. We need to look at that. So, it’s a balance that we then need to have. Caring for our people has been demonstrated by this government over and over and over again. That is why so much of our budget goes to the social wage, if you like.

In considering this temporary assistance measure, we have taken that into account and as we look into the future where we’ve got to support the people who are poor and unemployed, we will also take into account a whole number of factors, including the level of the deficit that we have to look at and also whether we have to borrow more money or not. So, those are matters that are being discussed at the moment and we will find an answer. Happily, we will probably find an answer with the participation of everyone here, including yourself, hon member. Thank you very much.

Question 2:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. In the state of the nation address on 9 February this year, we committed to the full implementation of the National Framework towards Professionalising the Public Sector. Among other things, the framework has been introduced to ensure that only

ethical, qualified and competent individuals are appointed into positions of authority.

The framework lays down clear requirements for recruitment and selection processes, mandatory induction for new public servants and performance management. It also prioritises continuous learning so that the skills and capabilities of public servants are always improving. The framework will help to do away with undue interference, the violation of public procurement rules or the favouring of certain private sector interests, as happened during the era of state capture. The framework will also bring greater stability in the senior leadership of the public servants.

Whatever internal processes - when it comes to the appointment of people - what you categorise as cadre deployment – just like the DA’s practice of vetting candidates for employment in DA-led municipalities which continues to happen. Whatever internal processes political parties undertake, we are clear that the merit principle must apply in public sector appointments, based on legislated prescripts and in line with the minimum competency standards.

We are taking steps to professionalise the public service across all spheres of government. To ensure the right people are in the right positions, that they are held accountable, and that they are empowered to provide the best possible service to the people of South Africa. To support this effort, we are undertaking skills audits in all infrastructure and service departments. These audits will help us understand where critical skills do exist in these departments to effectively deliver infrastructure and services.

The National School of Government will work with other organs of the state like the Human Sciences Research Council to conduct these audits. The adoption and implementation of the framework gives renewed momentum to the drive that commenced with the start of this administration to build a public sector that is ethical, professional and efficient.

The framework should be welcomed by the country’s public servants as an important tool for their own progression as they work on the frontline to deliver through the promise of a better life for every South African. This is how, they too, will be able to put our people first, through the Batho Pele principles that is widely accepted in government service.
Thank you very much.

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you hon Chairperson and good afternoon Mr President. Hon President, in the report of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into State Capture, in short, the Zondo Commission, Chief Justice Raymond Zondo said that cadre deployment is unconstitutional and illegal. In part 6 of the report, Chief Justice Zondo stated that there is no reason for the ANC’s deployment committee to exist. Your own Cabinet last year decided it would stop the implementation of cadre deployment.

Now hon President, in light of your answer now as well as of the Zondo report, and your own Cabinet’s decision in this regard, would you now agree that cadre deployment is unconstitutional and in line with your oath of office to protect the Constitution, would you withdraw your opposition to the DA’s application in the High Court in which the DA seeks to get the court to declare cadre deployment unconstitutional? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The case that you are talking about is a party political case. It is not a case against the state. So, the DA has launched a case against the ANC and those matters must be left between the court, the ANC and the DA. They should sort it out. As I

have said before, and which I have repeated now, and by the way, I do want to remind you that, as I have said at the Zondo Commission, I did outline what political parties do, and I also did outline what the DA also does.

As I have said just a minute ago, the DA in places where they lead government, they go through their own appointment process. They do that, they vet candidates and so forth. So, there is nothing wrong with a political party doing that, provided, as I have said, appointments are based on merit.
Merit has to be the determining factor. If the person is able to do the job, and to do the job better than any other candidate, I would say, precisely what the DA does, there is really nothing wrong with that.

If there are other considerations, that we are appointing you because you have a pretty face or we are appointing you because you belong to a particular political party or belong to a particular group, then there is everything wrong with that. Appointments must be based on the ability to do the work. That is why we have introduced this framework, to professionalise the public service and to make sure that the right people are appointed in the positions that they were occupied to serve our people. I hope that satisfies you. We

leave the other matter between the DA and the ANC out of this debate. Thank you, Chair.

Setswana:

Rre M K MMOEIEMANG: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo wa Ntlo ya Bosetšhaba ya Kgaolo ya Diporofense.

English:

Thank you President for indeed reminding the House that the professionalisation of the public service is an ongoing policy agenda of government in pursuit of constitutional imperative of building an ethical, capable and developmental state. And that professionalisation, as I have correctly pointed out, is an ongoing programme as it is correctly captured in section
195 of the Constitution, which binds the public sector to certain values. But more that than President, even the National Development Plan has identified the development of technical and spatial professional skills in public service as one of the critical solutions required for a capable and developmental state. Now the question that I want to pose to the President is that, in line of commitment by national government to professionalise state, what measures are in place so that there is synergy across all three spheres of

government and across all three arms of government? Thank you, Chair. Thank you, President.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. This is a framework that we decided to introduce and it has a number of elements. One of those is to start off with a skills audit. Just to find out what skills we have in the state.
Following that, we will then we able to upskill people, to skill them a lot better than where they are now. This we have found to be something that is so welcomed by public servants because everyone wants to advance in their job. They want to do their jobs better.

But beyond that, we are also working on the framework so that we integrate the processes of, say appointments for interviewing processes, auditing of skills throughout the length and breadth of government. All the spheres of government need to be properly synchronised so that when the framework fully kicks in, we have a uniform system that will be able to give line of sight to everyone who is in the public service precisely what is expected of them as we professionalise the public service.

Professionalising the public service is really in the end to ensure that we upskill those who are in the public service so that they can give our people proper service. That is why we are starting with the frontline desk people in infrastructure and services and then we are going to extend it to much broader. It will take time like you correctly say. It is not a one-day event. It will take time. We have 1,2 or so million workers in the public service, but that is something that we are implementing with a great deal of earnestness and seriousness. Thank you very much.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chairperson. It’s the FF Plus. [Laughter.] Hon President, with reference to the approval of Cabinet on 19 October last year, to implement the National Framework Towards the Professionalization of the Public Sector and the policy directives to do away with cadre deployment, hon President, what known damages as a result of cadre deployment was recorded and what was the impact thereafter that led to this decision? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I didn’t hear the full question towards the end, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just repeat the last part of the question.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: My question was, what was the known damages as a result of cadre deployment was recorded and what was the impact thereof that led to this decision by the Cabinet last year?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you. Governments all over the world always seek to improve the level of services that the public servants offer to their people. So, we are not embarking on a new journey in professionalising the public service. Through the audit process that are outlined, we are going to be able to find out whether people are well deployed or are in the right positions and they have got the right skills.

As it is now, we have often said that we want to improve the capability of the state. Improving the capability of the state is a statement that tells us that our capability has gone down and we therefore need to improve the professionalisation of the state so that people who are working in the state can serve the people of South Africa better. So it is informed by what we have observed over the years that we have to improve

the way that we serve our people. As I have said, many governments go through that. They renew themselves. They upscale services that public servants should give to our people.

We have admitted that there have been positions which were occupied by people who are not as skilled as they should be. Who are not efficient as they should be. That we have admitted. That has not served the people of South Africa well, and that is why we have embarked on a professionalisation of the public service with a view of improving the level of services that the public servants will offer to the people of South Africa. So it is a wide ranging process. It is not only limited to certain areas.

An audit process which is giving us the opportunity to look at the weaknesses that are inherent in our government systems is something that should be welcomed by everyone because it is going to enable us to lift the level of services to the people of South Africa, and it is also going to be beneficial, as I have said, to public servants themselves because as we find that people are not as proficient and as well skilled as they should be, we are not going to throw them out. We are going to retrain them, upskill them, reskill them so that they are able

to perform the duties that they should perform for our people. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Question 3:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon members, load shedding - as I have often said - has an impact on nearly every aspect of our lives as South Africans. At a social level, at an economic level and in many other ways and it impacts on areas that are so important. It affects everyone from large firms to small businesses, households and our people generally. Making it more difficult to work, to study, to produce goods and it impacts also on health.

Our primary focus is on reducing the severity and frequency of load shedding through a range of interventions that are being co-ordinated by the National Energy Crisis Committee. Earlier this month I appointed a Minister of Electricity to lead this effort. Among the priorities announced in the state of the nation address, is to address the impact of load shedding on different sectors of society and the economy. This includes ensuring the continuity of basic services, particularly, to the poor in our country.

Work is underway to ensure that critical facilities are excluded from load shedding where the network configuration allows for this and where it is feasible to do so without increasing the risk of higher stages of load shedding. These include areas such as commuter rail infrastructure, bulk water systems and facilities that are essential to the production of energy. Many of our public health facilities including hospitals and community health centers have backup power supply systems which include generators. This should reduce disruptions to service provision.

Furthermore, the Department of Health has been working with Eskom and municipalities to do everything they can to exclude health facilities from load shedding where possible. As many as 77 hospitals have been exempted to date. Eskom has identified a further 46 hospitals which can be excluded from load shedding with additional infrastructure. The two parties continue to work together to establish possible solutions to be implemented to exempt more hospitals. We will continue to explore ways of preventing the disruption of basic services and reducing the impact of load shedding as we work to achieve energy security.

Ultimately, Chairperson, the best way to address the impact of load shedding is to reduce its severity and frequency. This is why we continue to implement the energy action plan to fix Eskom power stations, to reduce demand and to add new generation capacity as quickly as possible. This work is underway. The Minister of Electricity has visited a number of power stations and he has been having deep discussions and not only with managers but with workers, as well as trade unions and engineers. Through this, we should be able to see literally the light at the end of the tunnel. I am hoping that this is an initiative that will lead to less load shedding.
Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chairperson. Good afternoon, President. Hon President, while we welcome the medium to long- term intervention of government in addressing the electricity crisis as you have outlined them, the life experience of our people demonstrate that electricity crisis, especially daily power outage and blackouts in many communities are not necessarily due to load shedding but disruption of power supply due to illegal connections, vandalism and destruction of critical electrical infrastructure by criminal syndicates. Here is my question, President, the fundamental question that therefore arise is: What plan is government intending to put

in place to force partnership between the law enforcement agencies, private security sector and communities in order to mount an effective and integrated security of the critical electrical infrastructure?

Xitsonga:

Ndza khensa.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Xitsonga:

Na mina ndza khensa.

English:

Many efforts are underway to deal with precisely the problem that you have outlined, illegal connections; vandalism and destruction of our infrastructure by either an individual, as well as syndicates. We have set up teams in our law enforcement agencies that are currently working at all this. Quite a lot of progress is being made to pinpoint some of those who are through syndicate activity involved in all this. Vandalisation also happens and illegal connections. This requires - as you correctly say - partnerships that we should

forge between our law enforcement agencies together, yes, with our communities, as well as, yes, private security entities.

However, more importantly the communities are the eyes and the ears of our people as a whole. They are the ones who often know who is involved in illegal connections and who is involved in vandalising our infrastructure. So, those efforts are underway and we are making breakthroughs. A number of people are being arrested now as we speak. Our SA Police Service is making very good progress in this regard and we will continue to unearth those types of syndicates that are involved in the destruction of our infrastructure.

We are not sitting back and doing nothing we are involved through our various agencies from intelligence to criminal intelligence, as well as the SA Police Service working together with a number of entities including the private sector and Eskom itself. So, we are making progress. What you are saying about building those partnerships is absolutely essential because it is through these partnerships that we are making more and more progress as we move forward. Thank you very much for highlighting this.

I have often raised the issue of illegal connections as well and I have often urged our people to be on the lookout for those people who do illegal connections because quite often our transformers are damaged because of illegal connections. In the main, people ... [Inaudible.] ... who gets involved in this and sometimes some of them do participate because they want to bypass the whole process of having to pay for electricity. I often urge our people to be more focused on doing things the right way. If people cannot pay - or for instance - for electricity there is the indigent process that is in place that can enable people to get electricity subsidised by the state. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency Mr President, water utility authorities across the country have warned that the high levels of load shedding are having an impact on water supply operations. Some areas may have low or no water pressure as a result. This is due to the fact that many areas require water to be pumped into a reservoir and with high levels of load shedding these reservoirs are unable to be sustainably filled. I would like to know: What is government planning to do to reduce the effect of load shedding on these pump stations? Thank you, Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. There are discussions that continue between Eskom and the water supply entities and also local government with regards to ensuring that load shedding does not necessarily at the end impact negatively on pump stations. There are some local government entities or local governments who have already set up generators to ensure that when there is load shedding it does not stop or interfere negatively with their processes of the waterworks pump stations. Others don’t have that capacity and that is why we are focusing more on reducing load shedding and also getting Eskom to try to exempt some of those areas where pump stations are negatively impacted. So, it is an involved process.

Fortunately, our Minister of Electricity has taken this on board and it is something that he is also focusing on. You raised an important point and I know a number of municipalities have already started dealing with it themselves by having alternative power generation for those waterworks and those who are not able to do so, we are working on an arrangement with Eskom. Nevertheless, ultimately - as I have often said - reduction of load shedding and final elimination of load shedding will be the answer. I am confident that we will get there. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon President. We will now proceed to the third supplementary question from the EFF. The EFF.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair! Chair, on a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It doesn’t seem as if ... Okay. On what point are you rising, hon member?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I would like to rise on a point of order and ask if I might take this opportunity as the EFF is not here without jeopardising the opportunity of the fourth question because nobody has. There are four questions, only three will be asked. There is a follow up question that I would like to ask the President on that.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No. Hon Nyambi. It is a difficult one because it is not a point of order, hon member. The question of what do we do when a particular political party is not present at a sitting like this should be discussed in the Whippery and sorted out there which hon Labschagne would agree to.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, yes, it should have been discussed in the Whippery but it was not discussed in the Whippery previously and there is an opportunity. With all due respect, the Rules of the House says: Three follow up questions can be asked. What could be wrong in asking the President a question? If the President is willing to answer it, I can’t see any reason for not asking the question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What I will do is to allow one or two members to make their comment. Hon Nyambi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chair, I am rising to say that this is a hybrid sitting. We agreed that we will accommodate people on the virtual platform and we have allocated follow up questions to different political parties. The problem that the hon Labschagne is raising will create a nightmare to us here in the House because which party will get the 4th question? The party has rightly so been allocated to EFF, just because they are not in the House and in terms of the ruling that you have made it is in order. It will not create problems. Let us not compromise the decorum of what we have started in the House and continue with the questions, please.

Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I think winning that, go back to the Rules. The Rules states that, the President or any Minister will come and answer four follow up questions. If we go back to preCOVID-19 time, we would select from the House. The Chair would select from the front, we would be given an opportunity to make that follow up question. I do understand that this is a hybrid sitting and there is an arrangement that we came to whereby there would be a preallocation. However, if that preapplication is not working, we should go back to what normal procedure is and what the Rules say.

So, I believe that if the Chair is given space to chair the meeting then the Chair has the right to choose who should be given that follow up question in the absence of the allocated party. There is nowhere in the Rules that says that a question must be allocated to a party if the third party is not here
... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yeah, no. Thank you very much hon Ryder. Hon members, it has really become established practice that questions are allocated to parties. So, I would urge and make a ruling that this matter be referred to the Rules Committee or the Whippery for further ... [Inaudible.] ...

Thank you very much. We would then proceed to the DA. Hon Christian.

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Chair. Hon President, it was recently revealed that the government has spent R7 million from 01 June 2019 to date, procuring and installing alternative power supply systems such as; generators, inverters and solar systems at the official residences of Ministers and Deputy Ministers. Can the President, please, inform the country why is government prioritising the provision of uninterrupted power supply to Ministers and Deputy Ministers while hospitals, water treatment facilities and sanitation facilities have come under strain due to persistent load shedding? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Chairperson. I would not characterise that as giving more priority to those other residences or places that you are referring to. Our hospitals
- as I was saying - and our various other entities or places that provide essential services are being prioritised through what I said, Eskom, it is dealing with it. We have realised that in the end the services should be provided on an uninterrupted basis particularly the hospitals and other entities. It is not a question of saying that we will do this

first to the exclusion of the other. As I said in my original reply, a number of hospitals have actually been exempted or excluded from load shedding, more up to 46 are now being looked at.

We expect that even many more are going to be looked at. It is not one over the other, it is a process that is looking at particularly how load shedding impacts also on those who are in hospitals. Now, I was talking about water works as well.
So, it is not making a choice over and above the other. That is precisely what is happening. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Question 4:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The size and configuration of the executive, that is the Cabinet, should be guided by the needs of the country.

At this moment in our country’s history, when we have urgent and pressing developmental challenges and needs, when we have to undo the devastating legacy of the past, we need an active, capable and developmental state.

We need a state that has the resources, the capability and ability to tackle challenges like poverty, joblessness,

homelessness, illiteracy, lack of social infrastructure and a significant burden of disease.

At the same time, account needs to be taken of available resources. Where it is possible to rationalise Ministries, departments and other state entities without affecting outcomes, we should be able to do so.

At the start of this administration in 2019, we reduced the number of Ministries from 34 to 28.

We combined a number of Ministries. For example, we combined trade and industry with economic development, higher education and training with science and technology, environmental affairs with forestry and fisheries, agriculture with land reform and rural development, among others.

We need to recognise that a country’s needs change over time and we need to learn from our own lived experience.

The two Ministries I announced earlier this month respond to specific needs that our country has at this time.

As I explained in the state of the nation address, we need a Minister to co-ordinate and drive our response to the electricity crisis. This is a temporary position and the Minister will remain in office for resolving the energy crisis.

The second new Ministry, for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, arises from an appreciation that we need a dedicated focus on ensuring that government effectively implements the programmes that underpin our priorities and is able to fix problems as they arise.

Now, neither of these Ministries requires the establishment of new departments. The Minister of Electricity, will work with the relevant departments and entities to co-ordinate the implementation of the Energy Action Plan, and the Minister of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation will be responsible for the existing Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation.

We are forging ahead with the process we embarked upon, at the start of this administration to build a capable state with entities that add value to government’s programme of action.

In all this work, we are informed by evidence, experience and availability of resources. We agree that we need an efficient and lean government, but if we become fixated by head counts, we may lose sight of the point of having a capable state in the first place. So the capability of the state is what informs the approach that we have taken. We do believe that it is going to yield good results. Thank you very much.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chairperson and hon President, thank you for the answer. Hon President, having Ministers and Deputy Ministers, director-generals, DGs, deputy director-generals, DDGs and managers in the same department and still these departments are not functioning effectively is a cause for concern.

One then has to think for the people that have been appointed in these positions if they are capable?

You referred to us having a capable state. That is the question because South Africa is in a dire state.

The appointment of the Minister of Electricity you yourself alluded to the fact that he will act as very expensive my addition “Project manager”. That is also a great concern.

Mr President, in your initial answer you said that initially some of these departments were merged or consolidated. I want to know if you would agree to a further merger of some of these departments. For instance, merging basic education with higher education to ensure that it is less departments. For we have a lot of separate departments at this stage. To do this in the interest of efficiency as well as a cost-saving measure to the country because at this moment we do not have the capable state. Thank you, hon President.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I think there should be appreciation for the fact that in 2019 as I said we had 34 departments. We have reduced that to 28. However, we have added two new Ministries. In doing so, I did make it clear that we are continuing with the reconfiguration of the state. We are going to be looking at the functionality of the state in totality. Looking at whether there should be further merges of various state functions.

Now you state an interesting one that basic education which should be merged with higher education. Now basic education has some 12 million young children and 25 000 schools. Higher education having been merged with science and technology, has also been made much bigger as we have about 25 universities.

Now their remit is quite different. They need to focus on the work that they have to do. However, it is interesting that you raise it because you are adding to the dialogue that we are continuing to have. As I have said that the reconfiguration of the state is a process we have embarked upon now and yes, we will be moving more and more to a leaner government, but a much more efficient, capable and effective government.

We have admitted that yes the capability of the state is a big problem and hence we embarked on all these processes including the framework of professionalising the public service and looking at how their government departments can be more effective. Everyone who is in the state sector is involved in beneficial work and serving our people. We want them to do much more. However you put in an idea, I want to think about it. Although, I do not think it will work so well though. I would like you to put more ideas forward. So, next time when I come in you can put more ideas or you and I can have a cup of tea and talk about it. Thank you very much.

Mr D R RYDER: Hon President, this time I will be nice with you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: But you’re always nice.

Mr D R RYDER: Mr President, good afternoon. Mr President, the recent Cabinet reshuffle saw a continuation of the shift of Ministers into the Presidency. Now, Mr Ramaphosa the centralisation of power into the Presidency, is a little bit concerning. Not of course because we do not trust, but it can only be three possible reasons really that you are doing that. The first is, that you do not trust your Cabinet to work according to your expectations and so you need to keep a close eye on them.

The second possible reason is that you do not trust the Leader of Government Business, Mr Paul Mashatile. I will admit that that probably shows good judgement.

However, the last option Sir is that because you fear scrutiny. The Ministers that are been brought under your Presidency and your umbrella does not give any portfolio committee in the National Assembly or the select committee in the National Council of Provinces any oversight over these Ministers and the work that they do. This is especially worrying. When we see the Minister of Electricity who is now operating without an oversight, especially at the time that is worrying like at this moment.

Now the question to you Mr President is then either option one, two or three? Thank you, hon Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, how about option four? Option four is to make the government work much more effectively. That is the option that I have gone for. To make sure that we work more effectively and serve the people of South Africa much better than we have.

It is not a process of centralising power. No. It is not that. It is not even driven by that it is not even driven by the fact that I do not trust Ministers. I trust all my Ministers. I also trust the Leader of Government Business, my Deputy President. That is why he is appointed to that position. It is just about the oversight issue. There is oversight. Part of what I am doing now is precisely that. I stand here and you ask me questions and I answer written questions as well as aural questions. So, there is oversight. So, there is nothing that is taking place hidden under some table. It is a process of creating a much more capable state.

The results will show. For we are through having the various tasks in the Presidency, ensuring that we work more effectively give you a very good example, one of the issues

that I sought to have introduced is the District Development Model. Through the District Development Model, which maybe your party does not agree with, we are having more integrated government. Government has for many, many, years worked in silos and we are breaking down the silos and through these various processes in the Presidency we are breaking down those silos. The good example is the Energy Action Plan. It brings together every department so that we can get rid of load shedding.

The Minister of Electricity is working with various departments as he executes his task. So, this is working and it will continue to strengthen our government. It is about strengthening government and ensuring that we have a capable state. That is what it is all about and nothing else. Thank you very much.

IsiNdebele:

Kkz D G MAHLANGU: Angithokoze kuwe Sihlalo. Ngilotjhise ngokuzithoba nokuhlonipha khulu kuMongameli weSewula Afrika.

English:

Hon President, in our view, the key deciding factor about the configuration and size of Cabinet are critical tasks of the

National, Reconstruction and Development agenda at any given time. We welcome your appointment of the Minister of Electricity and the planning, monitoring evaluation to address the damning challenges of the electricity crisis and the fragmented planning across sector departments and spheres of government.

Hon Chairperson, having said that can the hon President elaborate on the key indicators against which the continuation or the discontinuation of the Ministry of Electricity will be determined especially in the light of the President’s announcement that this is a temporary arrangement, or project focussed arrangement. I think this is towards your fourth option, Mr President. I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, indeed it is about the fourth option which I think the hon Ryder also finally agreed to. The focus of the Minister of Electricity is really to, as I said to ensure that we reduce and finally eliminate load shedding. That is, its remedy. And already he has hit the ground running. He has been to many power stations. In the end when we would have increased our energy available factor and higher level load shedding is history, then of course we have other plans for him as well going

forward. For as I said this is a transitory Ministry that is focussed on load shedding.

Now we want load shedding to be gone in months. So that our people can go back to the state of having energy and power in their homes, factories and all over. So that is the main focus to reduce and finally to eliminate load shedding. Now he is busy with a number of processes working on a number of plans to ensure that we get to that state.

Obviously it will take some time. We are heartened by the level of understanding that you are articulating that yes this was a necessary step. Initially, not everyone agreed with the notion of having a Minister of Electricity, but with time people are beginning to see the real need because we are focussing on this major problem. I did say this was the key priority that we need to look at as we come to the end of the administration. So, I do believe that it will work. In terms of our fourth option, that is precisely what we are focussing on. Thank you very much.

Question 5:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson and hon members, in 2019, South Africa underwent a mutual evaluation

of its anti-money laundering and combating of the financing of terrorism system. The evaluation was undertaken together with the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, which is a global body that aims to tackle global money laundering and terrorist funding. Since the publication of the Mutual Evaluation Report in October 2021, the government has been working with its various authorities to address the deficiencies that were identified in the report.

The Financial Action Task Force acknowledged in its February 2023 Plenary media statement the significant progress that has been made by South Africa to address most of the 67 recommended actions identified in our mutual evaluation. Such progress included the passage of two key Acts at the end of December 2022, namely the General Laws Anti-Money Laundering and Combating Terrorism Financing Amendment Act and the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorism and Related Activities Amendment Act. As a result, our agreed Action Plan has now been reduced to eight focus areas. These areas relate largely to the effectiveness of our authorities in implementing the various elements of our anti-money laundering and combating the financing of terrorism system.
The Cabinet has established an interdepartmental committee to

continue the work to ensure that the country addresses all outstanding deficiencies.

The committee is supporting the relevant authorities to, among other things, demonstrate an increase in the investigation and prosecution of serious and complex money laundering and terrorism financing, an increase in mutual legal assistance requests to other countries, an increase in the use of financial intelligence by law enforcement agencies, and the effective implementation of targeted financial sanctions.

A period of time is needed to demonstrate improvements on the outstanding deficiencies that have been identified. It is estimated that the country needs at least six months to demonstrate whether the recent amendments adopted by Parliament in December 2022 are effective. It is our hope that South Africa will make sufficient and good progress by next year to be removed from the grey list. It is our intention that we should be removed from that grey list and we are working hard towards that end. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, hon President, at one point you said that this greylisting is an opportunity for us to get our house in order, but Mr President, you are part of the problem

because you accepted dirty dollars that got into this country illegally. So how do you with any credibility, stand up here on, nationally and internationally, and explain to us how we are going to get out of this greylisting when you are part of the problem?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the processes that are underway are involving a number of agencies and institutions to look at the matter that you're referring to, and I think we should wait for that process to be concluded, to come to the type of conclusion that you're alluding to because I have publicly said I'm willing, prepared to co- operate and have done so and some of those institutions have even said so.

So let us wait for that whole process to be done with and to be concluded before we reach the conclusion that you are alluding to, and I will continue to say, it's no dirty dollars and I have said in various statements that this has been a result of the transaction as a farmer that I am who has sold game and that process is being thoroughly looked at and I think having opened myself to co-operate with those institutions, we should wait until all those institutions come to a conclusion. Thank you.

IsiZulu:

Nk L C BEBEE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo weNdlu ohloniphekile, ngibingelele kuwe, Mongameli, baba, hhayi, Mongameli, umphendule kahle umhlonishwa obekupheka ngemibuzo, siyabonga lapho.

English:

Hon President, as we would know that South Africa has never failed in its international obligations and are, therefore, confident the same will apply with the necessary steps to be undertaken to set the conditions for delisting of South Africa as the President has outlined. Now, the question, baba [Sir] President, what steps has the government considered to mobilise the key stakeholders that are critical for the resolutions of the key actions for delisting constantly communicate with our people about the progress moving forward?

IsiZulu:

Ngiyabonga, baba. [Uhleko.]

English:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, ...

IsiZulu:

... ngiyabonga, mama. [Uhleko.]

English:

Let me say, the process that we have embarked upon is quite a comprehensive and extensive process. It involves a number of government institutions because once we started this process and did the evaluation together with the Financial Action Task Force, we realised that there were gaps, and hence we moved with speed to come to Parliament to have those two Acts or amendments be affected. Now there are those others that we still need to do. We're moving with speed and it involves various government entities and we've made a great deal of progress because of those that are left, only eight, and we are working on them. It involves the Treasury and the Treasury is leading the process.

The Presidency is also involved in making sure that we move ahead with greater speed and the various other institutions including the Fusion Centre. So we will be able to give a line of sight to our people as it affects many of our people to detail precisely the measures that we are taking and the various steps because our intention is to get out of the greylisting so that everyone can know that we have addressed all these issues that have to do with money laundering as well

as the financing of terrorism because we do treat what the FATF has put forward to us with a great deal of seriousness as we are a signatory of these international bodies including the FATF. So we want to comply. We want to achieve precisely what they have said to us. So steps are being taken and they're quite extensive and so I'm sure that within the stated period, we should be able to achieve the goal that we have set for ourselves. Thank you very much.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, Your Excellency Mr President, it is reported that one of the key factors that led to South Africa's greylisting by the Financial Action Task Force is the lack of prosecutions for high-level financial crimes, such as state capture. Your Excellency, are you able to give details on what is being done by the government through the Hawks and the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, to help get South Africa off the greylisting and comply with international standards for the investigation of financial crimes? Thank you, hon Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, yes, they did highlight, the FATF did highlight the issue of slow prosecutions as they had expected that there would be a heightened number of prosecutions particularly flowing from

the Zondo Commission. The National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is at work on this matter. The Hawks are kept busy on this matter, and indeed the Investigative Directorate is also busy on this matter. They are working full-time, and we've also capacitated them. We've also given them a number of resources. They have been able to also recruit a number of skilled people within their ranks so that they can be much more effective.
One of the problems that they had was a lack of more skilled people, and they approached us as the government and said they need resources and the Minister of Justice was able to advocate for more resources for them. So that has been done and they're now busy, busy with various investigations and preparing various prosecutions.

Over time they have also been involved in recovering money that was lost. The money that was illegally paid has been recovered and they continue to do precisely that. So progress is being recorded and a number of prosecutions are also underway but obviously, they want to see more prosecutions and those will be coming in due course. Thank you very much.

Question 6:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, hon members the red tape reduction team that we set up in the Presidency,

led by Mr Sipho Nkosi has prioritize dealing with red tape that constrains economic activity. This includes reviewing the regulatory burden on informal enterprises and traders that operate in townships and rural areas. In addition, various initiatives are underway across government to improve the ease of doing business.

The Department of Small Business Development established an interprovincial task team to address the issue of interprovincial red tape. This process has identified substantial gabs in dealing with red tape reduction at the provincial level and has worked closely with provinces to address this.

The absence, in some provinces of formal structures and functions, programming and interventions require high levels of collaborations and coordination between multi stakeholders which is always not achieved.

The Department of Small Business Development has identified 29 pieces of legislations that negatively affect small businesses across the three spheres of government which are currently being prioritize for action.

The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition and Invest SA undertake capacity building for various public entities at a provincial level on an investment promotion and aftercare services.

We expect hon Chairperson, that every department and every level of government should be involved in the process of reducing red tape, as a key enabler to growing our economy. And it this level of consciousness that we are raising across government, that as a developmental state we should focus more and more on reducing red tape, various constrains that impede the growth of our economy and the creation of jobs.

Sometimes we seem to have these red tapes measures just for the sake of formality and losing our focus on being able to be a developmental state and having the ability to create jobs and ensuring that our economy grows.

So, this is a task that is underway. And having appointed a person, from the private sector who is helping us to focus on reduction of red tape. I do believe that having identified and continuing to identify the number of areas that constrain the ease of doing business. We will be able to make more and more progress. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Ms M L MOSHODI: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon President for your detailed report. My follow up question hon President is, you have identified a red tape as a critical factor, that undermines the ease of doing business and economic growth. As we welcome your bold step of appointing expert to assist government in addressing this red tape. Hon President, my question is what are the key successes that government can claim, especially since the appointment of Mr Sipho Nkosi?
Thank you, hon Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the process of getting rid of red tape is quite complex. Because it intertwined with things such as laws, such as protocols, such as rules and a whole number of processes, it’s a maze. And what we have been able to succeed in doing for instance, is to identify these 28 pieces of legislation that impede the ease of doing business. And also being able to say we now need to address those and ensure that, they are either amended or attended to.

Now, the process of even coming to Parliament, is an elongated one. It takes us forever, almost up to three years to amend laws or to pass laws. And we have been involved in this process and it’s been a great benefit to have this type of

facility in the Presidency. Because it enables us to look right across the whole sphere of government at national, provincial and local level.

And if you just imagine the strictures and the constrains at local government level alone. Where small and medium enterprise actors are not able, you know to operate, to trade and to do a whole number of things. Where they need to get permit after permit, after permit, before they operate. You then begin to realise what an involved task it is.

Now, we are saying people shall should act illegally but we are saying that we should enable people who want to be in business, to operate businesses and employ people. We should facilitate that process. We should enable them to be able to do that, rather than constrain them and standing their way because of this permit, that permit or that rule.

And I have given a number of examples in the past, where just ordinary people in our communities, want to either sell their products or whatever and they are constrained, they are told that you need to have this permit, you need to have this permission and all that.

So, successful countries are able to remove many constrains. And they just unleash business activity that leads to employment. That is precisely where we want be, without people transgressing the law. And I do believe that we would get there. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, Chairperson, hon President with regards to the removal of the interprovincial red tapes reduction, that pertains to the rural and township economic development in those areas. Hon President what would you say are the implications would be for an example the number of food stands and outlets and regulations thereof by the Department of Health for example? And would this department still be able to regulate the influx and the number of businesses as result of the reduction of the red tapes? Thank you, Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, yes the Department of Health and obviously other departments play a key role in all these. For instance, with provision or sale of food, clearly the Department of Health has to be involved and we obviously need to ensure that regulations that deal with the provision or the sale of safe nutrition to our people have to be complied with.

But it should have not lead to so many permits that have to be obtained before a person can trade. So, they have a role to play and the other problem of course that leads to red tape is the time it takes to obtain those types of permissions.
Sometimes it takes an inordinately long time before anybody can get a permit. And we are saying, those permits that are necessary, such as for instance health for food need to be processed much quicker and we are finding that permits, licenses turn to take far too long to be obtained.

And that is what kills business, that is what impedes business. And we want to be an entrepreneurial state, that can act quickly, where it is per entry to get a license or permit you should be able to apply and get it quickly. We are not saying those should be gotten rid of, the necessary ones should still be in place.

So, timeous action in as far as removing red tapes is one of the key determinates. And if we can get that right and get our public servants to be able to process these things quickly, we should be able to unleash business activity in our country, which can lead to job creation.

Many people have money to invest and because it takes so long, they then start redirecting the money that they would have invested to other activities which may not be job creation type of activities. So, quick action on our part will enhance the ability of businesses to invest. And that is what will even make us more attractive to other investors, whether local or offshore. They will say that we do things quickly.

We have made great success for instance in the registration of companies. It used to take a long time to do so. We have made great success for instance in obtaining water licenses, it used to take almost a year, even up to three years. We can now process those licences within a short space of time. That is precisely what getting rid of red tape is. Is not saying don’t go and get a water license, we say let it be issued taking everything into account as quickly as possible. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, good afternoon hon President. And thank you being in the House today. And I hope your Ministers will follow suit. Hon President before I ask my question. At the end after the question, will you clarify whether we are developmental state or an entrepreneurial state. Hon President in a debate on the

same topic as this question on 16th of March, this year. The point was made that the Western Cape Province, red tape reduction unit resulted or yielded positive results, namely savings and benefits amounting to R1,083 billion between 2015 and 2019. Are these results achieved in other provinces? If not, why not? And why is it that the Western Cape is the only province striving to ensure an ease of doing business?

And before you answer, I can tell you why. You have just said there’s lot of money wanting to be invested and I am telling that money is being invested in the Western Cape, because where we govern, we govern well. Thank you, Chairperson.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson, I think this notion of the Western Cape, trying to excise itself out of South Africa should really stop. What we do as government and I want you to listen carefully. What we do as government, we do for all provinces. We don’t single out one province and say this province is the darling province of all provinces.

When we saying we want to create climate for investments to flow in, we do it for all provinces. We doing it for all

provinces, and wherever we go, we say come and invest in South Africa and we identify ... [Interjection.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, why don’t you allow the President... [Interjection.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... on what point are you rising?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of privilege. I want to know; will the President answer this question? If I can ask him a question on the response that he gave now? Thank you. I just want to know if going to give the Western Cape the
20 000 the police officers they were ... [Interjection.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Of course that question is ruled off, it doesn’t really assist the process. And in fact, is not even a point of privileges, it’s really something else. Hon President please respond.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: In exactly I think a week or so, we will be holding our fifth investment conference. At that investment conference we will be inviting investors to

come and invest in all of South Africa. That’s our mission and that’s why I said, I like to remove this notion that the Western Cape is different from other provinces. Because it isn’t.

And when we mobilise investments, when create a climate that is conducive for investment, we do it for all provinces. You asked a specific question; are other provinces doing the same? It may well be that they have not really counted the way that Western Cape has, but I know for a fact, all our provinces are doing a great deal of work in reducing red tape. You go to the Northern Cape, they have already attracted a R100 of billion in a new sector of our economy, a renewable energy. They are now going for hydrogen and Gauteng has been perfecting the township economy. They have even pass a law. We have done and it is something that the Western Cape should learn from as well.

Because we would to see the townships here in the Western Cape brimming of businesses that would have been created, here.
KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and North West, you name all our provinces. They are doing a whole range of different things.

I am going at the President’s Coordinating Council, PCC, meeting where I bring together all provinces. I am going to be asking the provinces to showcase what they are doing. So that each province can learn from the other.

The Western Cape also has to learn from what other provinces are doing and do them as well as they can. So, all of South Africa is what we promote, including the Western Cape. The Western Cape’ s ability to attract business, just like the Northern Cape is due to our efforts as a national government. So, it’s all very well to say well, the Western Cape is doing much better.

Of course, we are pleased but we want all provinces to know that as national government we support them all. And we support them equally. Thank you very, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon President, as you take your seat ... as the President takes his seat. Let me take this opportunity to thank the President for attending this important NCOP sitting and for having answered the questions. I would also like to thank Premier Lusufi for being with us until the end. This appreciation also goes to Members of the Executive Council, MECs, all permanent,

as well as special delegates for availing themselves. Hon delegates, there being no other business, the House is now adjourned.

The Council adjourned at 15:51.

 

 

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