Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 23 Mar 2023


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary (Hybrid)


The House met at 14:52.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The Speaker made a statement on a suspected fire, within the vicinity of the Chamber, which resulted in the delayed start of the sitting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, we are having a delay in the start of the sitting because of the fire on the first floor.

The fire department has been called to ensure that everything is fine before we can start with the sitting.

Hon members, it seems the problem is not resolved. Since we have the Deputy President in our midst, we will excuse him to go. We will call him when all this has been resolved.

Hon Deputy President, you are excused. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members. I wish to give a report on the suspected fire that was detected in the Good Hope Building. I am informed that the capacitor in a light, overheated affecting the light cover which consequently caused the smoke in office number 31. As a result, the smoke detector was triggered further triggering the fire alarm system.

I am informed that there was no further damage as a result of this. So, the situation has been resolved. We sincerely apologise to all of you, hon members, for the inconvenience. Thank you.

Order, hon members.


Yima kaloku lungu elihloniphekileyo uPaulsen.


Wait, hon Paulsen! Hold on, hon Paulsen!

The first item – jer! We have not even started, man! The first item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Deputy President of the Republic.

There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose as supplementary questions. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer.

In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness amongst others has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so, due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the Deputy

President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Members asking supplementary questions or raising points of order may remain seated when doing so.

The first question has been asked by the hon S Luzipho, to the Deputy President. The hon the Deputy President.

Shall we say congratulations hon Deputy President, this is your first Question session and answer.



Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Maiden speech. Hon Speaker, somebody send me a message on my phone from Johannesburg and said, “We hear that Paul is on fire in Cape Town.” [Laughter.]

Hon Speaker, government has on numerous occasions acknowledged the negative effects of load shedding to all citizens and the economy.

This acknowledgement has found expression in the President’s decision to appoint a Minister for Electricity in His Office, specifically to respond to this function. The Minister is tasked to work with the board in implementing the national energy plan. In addition to this intervention is the declaration of National State of Disaster to ensure that there are measured interventions.

Another special focus of the new Ministry is to work with the National Treasury and respective municipalities to facilitate payment of outstanding monies owed to Eskom. As outlined in the Budget Speech in February this year, the National Treasury is working with Eskom to provide a sustainable solution to the crisis of municipal debt.

Government has previously adopted a plan to unbundle Eskom into three functional units, to increase accountability and competencies of the various functions. The Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy is on record on the decision to create another energy entity to augment the current energy supply.

During the 2023 state of the nation address, President Cyril Ramaphosa flagged the problems and outlined interventions to

unlock our nation’s potential. This includes reducing load shedding to facilitate economic growth, job creation, and fighting poverty and inequality.

The means towards ending load shedding include the following: Firstly, to fix Eskom’s coal fired power stations and improve energy availability factor; secondly, enable and accelerate private investment in generation capacity; thirdly, declare the State of National Disaster and establish a Ministry in the Presidency focussing on accelerating the implementation of the already agreed plans towards reducing and ultimately ending load shedding in the shortest possible period.

Fourthly, to provide budget to boost the roll-out of roof top solar by businesses and also households, and lastly, allocate budget to reduce Eskom’s debt burden.

Madam Speaker, as of the end of December 2022, municipalities owed Eskom R56,3 billion and the debt is rising. It is clear that we need a debt-relief strategy that will acknowledge the inherent risk of unviable municipalities.

In this regard, Eskom will provide incentivised relief to municipalities whose debt is unaffordable. However, the relief will come with conditions that will ensure that there is no repeat of debt build-up over time.

Some of the conditions will include the installation of prepaid meters, to correct the underlying behaviour of nonpayment and operational practices in the affected municipalities. Municipalities must use the money they are allocated effectively and efficiently for the intended purposes. If this is not the case, there should be consequences.

In addition, the National Treasury is preparing a Municipal Finance Management Act, circular dealing with the relief strategy regarding municipal debt owed to Eskom, which is expected to be released later this month, with the implementation expected to start on the 1 April this year.

Under the National Treasury, the Multidisciplinary Revenue Committee, is continuing with its main task of ensuring that all municipal debts are co-ordinated, tracked and resolved on an ongoing basis.

In this regard, hon Speaker, accounting officers are required to settle all contractual obligations, and pay all monies owed, including intergovernmental claims, within 30 days of the submission of an invoice, or on a specific period agreed with creditors or suppliers.

Hon members, the culture of nonpayment, not only by municipalities but by all organs of state and individual household customers is concerning. We cannot overemphasise the need to discourage a culture of nonpayment for public services.

In addressing the utility’s financial challenges, government has announced further measures on Eskom.

A debt relief of R243 billion will be implemented over the next three years. Government’s intervention of explicitly taking on this debt is aimed at reducing fiscal risk and enhancing long-term fiscal sustainability.

This debt-relief consists of two components: Firstly, Eskom’s debt service requirements of R184 billion. This represents Eskom’s full debt settlement requirement in three tranches

over the medium-term. Secondly, is a direct takeover of up to R70 billion of Eskom’s loan portfolio in 2025-26.

This will allow Eskom to focus on its operating cash flow on much needed maintenance and capital expenditure, while at the same time, reducing Eskom’s debt by R168 billion.

Further to this work, the government is continuing with the medium to long-term plans of adding additional capacity to the grid. We are committed to clean energy solutions, including investing in renewable energy solutions.

Amongst others, this includes the implementation of the integrated energy plan and the amendments to electricity legislation to make it easier for private developers to generate additional capacity. This includes speeding up the implementation of over a 100 projects expected to provide over
9 000 megawatts of new capacity.

Hon Speaker, it is our hope as a government that all these measures will facilitate and chart the way towards energy security, resulting in inclusive economic growth and job creation. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr S LUZIPO: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, even though they are paying their electricity bills through the relevant municipalities ...

The SPEAKER: Hayi bo! Sorry. Hon Mashego! Can you please mute your system!

Mr M R MASHEGO: I did!

The SPEAKER: Please mute, baba, please!

You may proceed, hon Luzipho.

Mr S LUZIPO: Hon Deputy President, even though they are paying their electricity bills, through the relevant municipalities, small-scale mining businesses including smelters and others in the sector are heavily affected by both electricity cuts and load shedding.

Would the government take into consideration such situations with regards to its intervention in capacitating municipalities to ensure a long-term solution to the electricity crisis for our industrial development objective?

Thank you very much, hon Speaker, and congratulations hon Deputy President. I know you will rise to the occasion. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Luzipo, one of the reasons why government is encouraging municipalities to ensure own generation is also to be able to supply those other sectors. So, changes have been made to the regulations on new generation capacity. That will allow municipalities to independently procure power that will then result in them be able to supply small businesses in their areas, smelters and, etc. Government will also strengthen the municipality capacity to be able to function properly to be able to generate this additional revenue.

That is what we are encouraging. We do hope that if municipalities do that, they will be able to assist those sectors. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Mr S N SWART: Hon speaker and maybe as the ACDP also firstly, congratulate the hon Deputy President on his appointment.
Arising from his response, we appreciate the efforts to reduce the municipal debt and of course the Deputy President alluded

to other interventions to reduce load shedding which we all agree has had a devastating impact on household, businesses and on the economy as a whole. Today we heard one estimate of our economic growth to be 0,1%, which is far too low.

Now arising from your response hon Deputy President: What technical interventions were used to reduce load shedding to zero over the past weekend given that during the December holidays when demand was still very low were still very high levels of load shedding. The ACDP is concerned that possibly an instruction might have been given to keep the lights on at all costs, in response to the cause for the shutdown. Which if this is true it would place the whole grid and risk of a total block out. Would the hon Deputy President please comment on that? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Swart, thank you for acknowledging that government is on the right track with the interventions. Our interventions is to ensure that we can reduce the challenges of load shedding. We will do everything as government to ensure that there are no technical interventions that will result in us having the problem of load shedding increasing. For whatever we do now is to give

Eskom the ability to be able to increase electricity and ensure that we do not compromise the grid.

So, I can assure you that everything is being done by government and Eskom together, to ensure that we keep the lights on. Thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy President, I see there is a memo from the ANC that says that the Deputy Presidents wear purple ties. You look like the cat by the way, now with that purple tie. Congratulations.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry. I could not hear that?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, do not worry. Hon Deputy President, the issue here for us is that there turns to be too much focus on the business sector or rather the effects of load shedding on the business sector which is important and I accept.
However, in view of the fact that only 77 hospitals were exempted from load shedding, out of 400 public health care facilities countrywide. That resulted in many patients losing their lives as there was not enough staff members available to

resuscitate or patients who depend on lifesaving equipment. Health care workers as you know are forced to make a terrible choice over who lives endure who dies. And they are forced to endure such traumatic and strenuous conditions due to the failure of government to resolve load shedding.

Is the government considering to compensate families who were affected by death as a result of load shedding, hon Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker and the hon Kwankwa thank you for the question. The approach of government is to ensure that places like hospitals obviously are able to continue to do their work so that they can save lives.
However, supplying electricity is a very technical complex problem. That sometimes it is very difficult for Eskom to exempt hospitals in particular areas because you are supplied by the same power station. As a result, when this was raised, the chief executive officer, CEO, of Eskom did allude to this challenge that sometimes they find it difficult to exempt hospitals because of that in case. So, when they switch on and off the entire supply area, but we obviously are concerned like yourselves that we should not lose lives. That is why our

approach as government is really to deal with the bigger problem so that we can eliminate the problem of load shedding so that we do not have this problem that you are raising.

Obviously government has to be careful about issues of compensation. You know load shedding is affecting many other people. So, ones we commit to compensating a particular sector, there would be nowhere to stop. Everybody is going to make demands. I am sure even you, hon Kwankwa, you might come and say something broke in your house because of load shedding so you need to be compensated. I am just saying we just need to be careful not to open a can of worms. There are many people affected. In fact, government may not afford to be able to compensate everybody who is affected, one way or the other by load shedding, so, I would not like to commit government to that. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, the problem with Eskom is corruption, lack of skills, sabotage, theft of diesel, coal and cables, lack of maintenance and increase in demand and evergreen contracts that still exists
30 to 40 years. That is the first problem. The second problem because I see the question is twofold is the ability of the

municipalities to pay Eskom. Municipalities currently, have created an environment for corruption and looting.

In order to solve the Eskom problem would you consider a holistic approach to deal with all these challenges at Eskom. For you cannot leave one or two of them and expect to solve the problem.

More importantly on the issue of local government, municipalities will never have the capacity to pay. Would you consider ensuring that there is a transparent and a credible process of procurement, so that the looting and stealing stops so that they will have enough money to pay Eskom and others?
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker and the hon Shaik Emam, indeed hon member, the issues that you are raising are the issues that we are currently addressing working with Eskom. Government will continue to ensure that we do not compromise on dealing with corruption. It does not matter whether it is Eskom or any other entity. We have put the issue of dealing with corruption on top of the government agenda.
So, you can be assured about that.

The issue of maintenance is very important because even though there is pressure throughout the world that we must move to cleaner energy, etc, we want to ensure that the power stations that we currently have continue to be properly maintained to generate electricity. So, we should not compromise on maintenance and we have said so, very loudly for Eskom.

With regard to skills, yes indeed, as you know that the Department of Public Service and Administration has come up with a new policy to ensure that there are adequate requisite skills in government. As government we are not going to allow agencies or government departments to deploy people without the relevant skills. So, that is the priority for us.

Municipalities to pay Eskom is a priority. As I said earlier that R56 billion is owed to Eskom so, we are talking to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We are going to be working with her to ensure that this does not continue.

I also did say earlier that in some of the areas we have already started encouraging the intervention of prepaid metres. So that municipalities do not continue to be put in a

situation of owing Eskom. Remember, what happens is that municipalities do not pay Eskom because they do not get paid by those who are supplied with electricity. So, if they put prepaid metres they will be able to collect revenue and be able to pay Eskom.

So, hon Shaik Emam, we are attending to all those matters. Thank you very much.

Question 2:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Section 92(2) of the Constitution stipulates that members of the Cabinet are accountable collectively and individually to Parliament for the exercise of their powers and the performance of their functions. Therefore, members of the executive have a constitutional obligation to avail themselves to respond to questions for oral reply, appear before relevant portfolio committees and attend plenaries as scheduled by the Programming Committee of Parliament.

In August 2021, the Speaker of the National Assembly proposed new mechanisms to monitor outstanding responses to parliamentary questions by members of the executive. In terms

of the new mechanisms, the Speaker writes to the Leader of Government Business in Parliament on a quarterly basis informing him or her of outstanding replies by individual members of the executive. To this end, the Leader of Government Business in Parliament has further introduced monitoring mechanisms where members of the executive with more than 10 outstanding responses to questions for written reply are requested to inform the Leader of Government Business in Parliament in writing about the reasons for not answering questions and the remedial actions to be taken. This information is then presented fortnightly to Cabinet where the members are present. So, we present it there. I will tell you more later what we also do.

Since the implementation of these mechanisms there has been notable progress with regard to unanswered questions. In fact, in 2019, there were 405 questions that lapsed. However, by the end of 2022, only 83 unanswered questions that lapsed. I am not saying that is a good thing that we should be judged on, but I am saying that we can see the magnitude of how that has been reduced. We need to do much more needs to be done to deal with that.

We equally appeal to our programming whippery also to ensure that scheduling should avoid coinciding with Cabinet meetings and other government engagements. We have to co-ordinate that between the Programming Committee and the work of the executives so that members are able to attend. Hon Speaker, I must say that the development and finalisation of the legislative programme which we proposed will deal with how we manage executive Bills and the weaknesses that arise.

As part of the government’s efforts to address this challenge, the President has now delegated the Minister in the Presidency responsible for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation to develop a framework that will investigate strengthening efforts of monitoring effective implementation of the legislative programme and the fulfilment of parliamentary responsibilities by the executive, that is Minister Maropene Ramokgopa. A draft framework and its implementation plan has since been developed and it is due for consideration by the relevant Cabinet committees.

Hon Speaker, moving forward our main priority will be amongst other things, to closely monitor the development and the introduction of priority Bills to Parliament with special

focus on legislation with Constitutional Court deadlines but also for those pronounced by the President during the state of the nation address. I thank you very much, hon Speaker.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy President, I certainly hope that the adage a new broom sweeps clean is applicable to you too as our new Leader of Government Business. As key parts of your role, Deputy President, is ensuring that Ministers attend to their responsibilities in Parliament. As you have stated that the unanswered questions have come down to 83 and I would like to propose to you that, that simply is not good enough. We have seen a complete decay of the institution over the years and Ministers routinely don’t attend question sessions in the House or send their deputies who are often ill-suited to respond to questions.
Even now, Deputy President, we only have one Minister in the House.

This absence is often attributed to Cabinet responsibilities despite the fact that Parliament has moved its programme on Wednesdays to start at 3:00pm to accommodate Cabinet meetings. More disappointingly, Ministers have often given inadequate answers to questions making a mockery of the oversight

function of Parliament. Repeat offenders are slapped on the wrist for unanswered questions with no real consequences.
Deputy President, the South Africans have sent us here to represent them.

We cannot do our work if the executive is hostile to Parliament. What will you be doing to ensure that perpetual offending Ministers are dealt with and face harsh consequences for not fulfilling their roles and they are not answering questions?


already said that there will be consequences if members of the executive do not respond to questions. Obviously, the Speaker has powers to reprimand members who do not comply. I think the Speaker did it recently. I know that other members felt that was harsh but it had to be done and will continue to be done to ensure that the executive is held accountable to Parliament. So, we will not compromise on that. We will continue to remind the executives that they have to answer questions and if they don’t there will be consequences.

Let me also indicate that already as part of the work of the Leader of Government Business, the issues are reported to the Cabinet every time the Cabinet sit. So, when the Cabinet sit we report about the work of Parliament but also about questions. We do indicate to Cabinet who has not answered questions and remind colleagues to do so and that is almost every fortnight. It is not something we do after six months, every fortnight there is a programme on the agenda of Cabinet that deals with this matter to ensure that members of the executive are held accountable for answering questions. We do want Ministers to be accountable and we will show that, that is the case.

I was reminding some colleagues that when former President Kgalema Motlante was Deputy President, he would report to the Cabinet. Of course, he was the Leader of Government Business and I was the Minister of Arts and culture then. What President Motlante would do was that he would present the report, but the issue of unanswered questions would not be taken as read. He would read them and say: Minister Mashatile, two weeks ago you had six unanswered questions and we see you still have the same.

All the Ministers by that time, we all worked hard to ensure that we have zero because there was peer pressure. He would go through all of them and say that, Minister so and so, you have
16 unanswered questions. So, nobody wanted to be in that situation, every time we went to Cabinet all of us would check first what was happening with questions. All of us wanted to ensure that when President Motlante comes, he must say: Minister Mashatile, now I can see you have zero. That is what we will do.

Every time Cabinet sit, I will report and say to my colleagues, you have so many. [Interjections.] ...

The SPEAKER: ... mute, hon member, please.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I think when we handle this matter that way Ministers take it serious that they have to answer questions. This is part of our democratic system of accountability. Hon Ministers, you know, we will report how many. [Interjections.] ... no, yea, yea, they will do their job. They will do their job. Thank you very much for asking that question. We are dealing with it, firmly on the agenda.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Firstly, hon Speaker, let me take the opportunity on behalf of the IFP to congratulate you, hon Deputy President. Today is the day welcome but also a baptism of fire but I will not ask you a fiery question. Hon Deputy President, you did mention what the Constitution says about accountability of members of the executive. I am sure that you will agree with me that members of the executive include the head of the executive in the provinces being the premier and in national government being the President. Soon we will be dealing with the budget votes from Budget Vote 1 to Budget Vote 40 or so.

Now, when you were premier in Gauteng you had an oversight committee that oversaw the work of the premier, Budget Vote 1 Will you support the creation of a committee to oversee the President’s Budget Vote 1 here in the National Parliament because it is part of accountability and oversight, hon deputy President? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Singh. You are right. When I was premier of Gauteng I think we had something like that, I can’t remember what we called it at the time. However, you know that Parliament is different. We were

dealing with a very peculiar environment at the time where we required to engage number of other stakeholders. The Parliament operates differently from provinces. Remember that provinces get most of their resources from national government and as a result our accounting mechanisms are different. So, I think for now the mechanisms to hold the President accountable are adequate. I think the opposition parties know that the President can come here to answer questions. You know that he is really at your disposal to hold him accountable. I think let’s continue that way. [Laughter.]

Mr M S CHABANE: Thank you, Speaker. Congratulations again to the Deputy President. Thanks for having responded comprehensively. It must be acknowledged that members of the executive do continue to attend various portfolio committees and standing committees and are able to do responses on the issues that are affecting various departments. They do provide oral replies. Where Ministers are unable to attend a session to the House, the communication is provided to the Presiding Officers and the Deputy Ministers take responsibility to respond on behalf of various departments. There has been an improvement in the area of questions or written reply as you indicated, Deputy President.

Noting the Speaker’s reprimanding, how will the Deputy President in his capacity as the Leader of Government Business further improve and strengthen the participation of the executive in the parliamentary work? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker and hon Chabane. Obviously, this is an area which we should continue to improve. I agree with you that I said that the number of unanswered questions has gone down and the Ministers are responding. However, we do want to perfect it and as a result we are looking at a number of innovations. When I was the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: ... hon Nzuza, would you, please, mute your system.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I was saying, hon Speaker, that when I was the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture, I used to answer questions delegated by the Minister. Is my microphone off? Oh, sorry, I thought maybe my microphone is off. I was saying that when I was the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture, I used to answer questions delegated by the

Minister. I think we should use that unlike to allow questions to lapse, Ministers must delegate Deputy Ministers to deal with questions ... [Interjections.] ...

The SPEAKER: ... hon members, please, don’t do that, please.


Ministers must delegate Deputy Ministers to deal with questions so that we don’t create this backlog. It was done before and we must continue to do it. I agree, hon Chabane that, yes, they are answering but we must continue to improve. As I have said that the issue of this matter being on the Cabinet agenda every two weeks, is one of the mechanisms that will ensure that we keep our eye on the ball. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you, hon Speaker. I will take the question on behalf of hon Maotwe. The Deputy President, the Leader of Government Business, the mandate is to ensure that the executive is accountable and is responsive to the questions that are put by the Members of Parliament. You are inheriting what is extensively ... [Inaudible.] ... which lacks agility because of your predecessor who occupied it. I

hope you are bringing some excitement in the office by ensuring that Ministers and not only Ministers but the President himself is accountable, is responsive, respect this Parliament and answers questions without coming here just to waste time and to evade questions. What is it that can come out of your office to ensure that there are consequence management for Ministers, Deputy Ministers including the President to ensure that they are responsive to the questions that are put to them by Parliament? Thank you, hon Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon member and hon Speaker. Yes, I think we all agree that members of the executive have subjected themselves to accountability by this House. No doubt about it. The President has subjected himself to accountability by this House. Now, hon member, uh ... okay, so, hon member is not Maotwe, ne? (isn’t it)

The SPEAKER: ... is hon Matiase.


earlier that the lapsed questions in 2019, where 405 and they then reduced to 82 by 2022 and that was under the stewardship of hon Deputy President David Mabuza. So, he did well. I think

it will be unfair to say that he did not do well, from 405 to

82 he did well. I think we should appreciate good work when it’s done. Obviously, we want to take it from there. From where hon Mabuza left it we must take it to its ultimate where we want to reduce this to zero. It will take a bit of time. Let me tell you why it will take a bit of time, hon Matiase. The big departments most of them have got agencies. [Interjections.] ...

The SEAKER: ... oh man, J J! J J, please, mute man! Hon members on the platform, please, man. I don’t want you to be taken by surprise when we mute all of you. Please, you are disrupting the House. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Matiase, I was saying that the bigger departments or the big departments have agencies or what we call state-owned enterprises linked to them. So, some of the questions that Ministers have to answer they need information from those agencies. Sometimes when they experience delays they have given me those reasons. Obviously, we are not going to relax and say that it’s a problem we can’t resolve. We have to resolve it.

Nevertheless, I just want you to understand that the Ministers don’t just deliberately not answer questions they also face a lot of challenges when you have a lot of agencies to provide with information. We will have to find a way on how we assist Ministers with a lot of agencies to be able to have a system, probably give those agencies a deadline. Deadlines like: If we ask you for this information, we want it by this time. This will enable them to answer questions. Otherwise, thank you very much for the question. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Question 3:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon Mente, the President has expressed his commitment to co-operate fully with all investigations. The government supports this position without reservation.

Given the fact that investigations are still ongoing, it would be ill-advised to opine on whether or not the government’s efforts to combat crime and corruption have been undermined.
We simply do not have sufficient information to reach informed conclusions at this stage.

That said, there is one important issue that stands out and merits mentioning, even at this stage. The fact that public institutions can, without let or hindrance, investigate the affairs of no less than a figure such as the President of the Republic speaks volumes about the strength of our democracy.

The government remains committed to fighting crime and corruption. As hon members are aware, the Phala Phala matter is being probed by more than one public agency, following the break-in and theft at the President’s Phala Phala farm.

We take this opportunity to reiterate our support for the institutions concerned, and emphasise that they must be allowed to complete their work. I thank you!

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, one of the key reflections made at the Zondo Commission was that, when Parliament was required to stand up at the height of the Gupta corruption during the Zuma years, this House simply used its majority to shield the executive, at the time, from accounting. We see this tendency again, where your party uses its majority to try and burry the allegations of money laundering that took place at the President’s Phala Phala

farm. In the long term, what do you think will be the impact of the ruling party using its majority to circumvent parliamentary accountability? Do you support the fact that a mere majority can undermine findings of a credible independent panel led by a former Chief Justice? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Mkhalipi, you’ve got it wrong. We are not shielding. Let me repeat what I have said. The President has expressed his commitment to co-operate fully in all investigations. So, there is no shielding. I think sometimes, there is a zeal to find the President guilty, without going through due processes. It is not correct. We are a democracy. We have independent institutions that we have set up. Nobody is interfering with them.

Let us not be impatient. Let us allow these institutions to do their work properly. The President is co-operating. He is not interfering and I can assure you that institutions are doing their work without fear or favour. Thank you very much.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I will take the question. Congratulations, Deputy President. Maybe, just take this opportunity to take the nation and this House

into confidence about the status of the Phala Phala farm declaration, ranging from Sars to what we have here in Parliament with section 89, as a parliamentary process. Thank you very much.


Mahlaule, yes, indeed, as I said earlier, there are agencies that are dealing with this matter. Hon members would know that Sars, the Public Protector, the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and you even here at Parliament are busy looking into this matter.

So, there are processes that are unfolding. In fact, the Public Protector issued a preliminary report, not final, and asked those who have made allegations to comment. So, it means the issue is not yet done. It is still undergoing its own processes.

Recently, Sars also indicated that they looked at the affairs of the Phala Phala farm and found that, in fact, the President with the Phala Phala farm is compliant, in terms of attending to tax issues.

So, this process is unfolding. As I have said, there are all those institutions that are busy. I want to suggest to hon members that we allow these institutions to complete their work. Once they have completed their work, you will have an opportunity, as this august House, to deal with what is a complete report, rather than running around speculating.

I think that is the main focus. We will get the report and deal with it. Let us respect the institutions that we have set up by our democratic Constitution. They are doing a good job. Let us respect that. Thank you very much.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, when the story of the Phala Phala farm scandal broke, the DA called for an ad hoc committee to investigate this matter. We voted for a section 89 panel to conduct an impeachment inquiry. All these things were done, including tabling the resolution yesterday that you and your party voted down. Every attempt to have Parliament conducted its constitutional obligation has been blocked by your party, rendering Parliament toothless, because of the ANC’s majority and commitment to shielding the President.

No one is interfering with institutions and their work. Courts have held in this very House that Parliament does not have to wait other institutions to finish their work before we act. As the Leader of Government Business, what do say about Parliament’s role in terms of investigating the President, in spite of the fact that there are concurrent investigations that are taking place? What about our constitutional obligations? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon member, I think that is how democracy works. The majority must have its way. [Interjections.] No. Democracy works that way. Maybe when you have an opportunity to govern, you will understand.
You do govern in the Western Cape. Yes. So, I am told and I actually don’t know that, but I am told that it is what you do in the Western Cape.

I am not blaming you, because at some point, you must take a decision against us in opposition, when you believe that your cause is correct. When the ANC believe its cause is correct, it would use its majority to push those decisions.

By the way, remember that winning positions and decisions is something you win out there during the elections. So, when you campaign and win, you already won here. If you lose there, you have already lost here. It is as simple as that. It is democracy. It works like that all over the world.

I am happy, if, you vote against us in the Western Cape, because we are a minority there. There is nothing I can do. There is nothing wrong. You are quite right. So, there is nothing wrong here, as well.

So, let us allow the NA or may I say Parliament, as a whole. However, let us talk about the NA now. Let us allow the NA to take decisions in a democratic way. Democracy means majority rules. That’s it. Thank you very much.

Question 4:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you House Chair. Hon members know that under the leadership of former Deputy President Mabuza, the Inter-Ministerial Task Team on matters of Traditional and Khoi-San Leaders conducted extensive consultations with the Traditional and Khoi-San Leaders across all provinces as part of the full appreciation of the critical

role these leaders play in assisting the state to develop our communities.

This task team was established by President Ramaphosa in February 2022 to address all issues of concern of the institution of Traditional and Khoi-San Leadership. The issue of promoting investments and economic development in rural areas is indeed critical as highlighted in the question by the hon member.

Hence in the light of this, the task team resolved to establish a work stream that focuses on advancing land ownership, tenure rights, and fast tracking socio economic development in these communities.

The Inter-Ministerial Committee on Agriculture and Land Reform also continues to be instrumental in fast tracking land reform or the land reform agenda as it relates to economic development of rural areas or rural communities.

Hon House Chair, some progress has been registered in this area of work and much more needs to be done to ensure that our

people in rural areas reap the economic benefits of our democracy in ensuring support to our farming communities.

A number of rural infrastructure projects have also been delivered by government in various villages across all nine provinces. Amongst others, this includes mechanisation, infrastructure upgrades, irrigation schemes as well as community facilities such as pre-schools, community halls and agri-parks.

This has also included the construction and rehabilitation of farmer production support units such as animal handling facilities, animal clinics, dipping tanks, boreholes, fencing and other related infrastructure. Subsistence farming in various parts of the country are supported by the presidential economic stimulus initiative to obtain production inputs through a voucher system which allows them to continue to grow their crops, feed their livestock and in turn sustain their livelihoods. Hon House Chair, to date, 107 farmers have been registered as subsistence farmers that have benefited from the presidential economic stimulus initiatives.

Hon House Chair, at the local government summit that was held last year, it was resolved that the proposals made by the Institution of Traditional Leadership in the form of what is called InvestRural Master Plan should inform socio economic plans at local level.

The InvestRural Master Plan seeks to convert rural development challenges into opportunities for investment covering critical areas such as infrastructure development, agriculture, service delivery, financial inclusion and rural enterprise development amongst others.

In addition, the invest rural strategy has now been mainstreamed into the integrated rural development strategy of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development.

Furthermore, a number of skills development programmes have been implemented through the National Youth Service Corps, attracting and empowering young people from various traditional communities such as those from Barolong Boo Seleka in the Free State province.

Both the Inter-Ministerial Task Team on Traditional and Khoi- San Leaders and the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Agriculture and Land Reform will continue to strengthen partnerships with the institution of traditional leadership to collectively address issues of investments and economic development.

Following the Communal Land Administration and Tenure Summit that was held in May last year, the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development commenced with the process of developing the Communal Land Tenure Policy. This policy will address issues of land ownership thus contributing to socio economic development in rural communities.

Hon members, this task of addressing issues of development in areas under the jurisdiction of traditional leadership is a collaborative effort between national government, provinces, municipalities and traditional leaders themselves.

As government we will continue to engage the Traditional and Khoi-San Leaders to collectively find workable solutions to addressing the issue of socio economic development in their areas. We cannot fail in this task because rural areas are an integral part of identity as the people and our country cannot

achieve its full economic potential if these areas continue to be on the periphery and are excluded economically.

Hon House Chair, once the President asked me to deal with this matter, I asked my office to arrange a meeting with the House of Traditional Leaders and Khoi Leadership so that we are able to deal with the many issues that they have been raising. So, we will be meeting them in the next few weeks. Thank you very much hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen and hon Mlenzane, please.


Mof D R DIREKO: Ke a leboha motsamaisi wa dipuisano ya hlomphehang. Mohlompehi Motlatsi wa Moporesidente, Mong Mashatile, mahlohonolo ke ao.

Ntlafatso ya moruo e itshetleile ho funeheng ha lefatshe, mme ho fapana le metse ya ditoropong, metse ya rona e ka tlasa boetapele ba marena e sebedisa ho fumaneha ha lefatshe bakeng sa ho aha matlo, temo le dikgwebo. Ke ka hoo tshireletso ya tumelo ya lefatshe e leng bohlokwa hobane e thusa ho hohela

matsete le ho fumantshwa ha ditshehetso tsa ditjhelete dibankeng.

Jwale, ke kgatelopele e feng eo mmuso ee entseng ho netefatsa hore re matlafatsa tshireletso ya tumellano ya mobu o kopaneng hore re tsebe ho hodisa moruo wa rona wa metseng ya marena? Ke a leboha.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Ke a leboha kgaitsedi le ha e le hore Setswana ha ke se utlwisise. [Laughter.]


I should have used interpretation. If I heard you correctly, I think the question was, what efforts are we making to work with Traditional Leaders out there to improve the economic situation of their areas. Am I correct?


Ke nnete ke ile ka bolela qalong hore ke tlo kopana le bona. Ke itse Moporesidente o itse mosebetsi o mong waka ke hore ke kopane le marena, re bontshane hore re tlo ntlafatsa ditulo tseo ba leng ho tsona jwang.

Ke a tshepa hore ka kopano eo, ba tla be ba ena le ditletlebo tsa bona tseo ba tla di beha fatshe hore re bontshane. Mmuso wa ANC o batla hore ditulo tsena tsa mahaeng moo marena a leng teng, le tsona e be ditulo tse tla tswella pele.


In other words, we want to see improvement in the rural areas working with Traditional Leaders. Nobody must be left behind. The rural areas in particular at times seem to be forgotten and maybe that is why the President said that one of the things he wants me to do is to go and work with Traditional Leaders so that we do not leave them behind.


Kgaitsedi, kannete ke mathela teng. Ke a leboha.

Mong N P MASIPA: Dumela Motlatsi wa Moporesidente.


More than ten million hectares of land in rural parts of South Africa are still owned by South African Bantu Trust and Native Land. Deputy President, your ANC government has treated our

people as second plus citizens denying them the right to own properties.

Would your government support the DA’s proposed Land Justice Bill that will see communal land residents who upon request to register their individual title deeds or communal property association and in so doing stimulate economic development enclaved in the investment? I hope you got the question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, I got the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You may proceed Deputy President

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much hon Chair. Hon Masipa we definitely have no intention to deny our people land. I have not had the opportunity to read the DA Justice Bill, maybe you will give me a copy so I can have a look at it.

Our government’s approach is to release land and not the other way around. We want land to go to the people but in an orderly

way and that is what we are doing. We will be discussing this matter in a meeting with traditional leaders.

If they say to me that the ANC is denying them land, I will listen to them and understand why that is the case because as far as I know, we are releasing land. We want to ensure that our people have access to land and that they can farm.

This commitment to work with rural areas is not just sloganeering. We are going to that hon Masipa and if you have the impression that we are not releasing land but denying people land, let me have those facts because I will be working there with them.

I would like to say to Traditional Leaders out there, we are coming to you to ensure that you have access to land, you can farm, produce food, and be able to improve your rural communities. So, we will do exactly that. Thank you hon Chair.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much hon House Chair. House Chair, I do constituency work in about 50 villages in the rural areas. [Inaudible.] ...village in Mbhashe Municipality near Coffee Bay, Chief Sishengu has asked me to ask for your

assistance as leader of Parliament to speed up the promotion of investment and economic development in her rural area where my constituency parliamentary office is working to convert it into a fishing and sward village with tourist appetite than Coffee Bay if roads are obviously fixed.

The chief wants a system with 15 rural tourist huts for accommodation. It will each be run by 15 women and a cold-room to store fish for a local cooperative which the Deputy Minister Capa gave because you cannot sell your fish the same day. All this is in preparation for President Cyril Ramaphosa who asked in a Parliamentary session to be invited to catch some of the fish.

We would like to know as leader of Parliament, you can assist these rural chiefs and there is also the queen of the Nama in the Cape Flats who are desperately looking for assistance?
Thank you very much hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before you respond hon Deputy President, let me remind those of you asking follow-up questions that the timing is still the same. So, I am very

lenient on you. Hon April on the virtual platform, your hand is up, why is your hand up?

Mr H G APRIL: Thank you Chairperson, mine was just to say when the members speak, we cannot hear them properly, the sound is very low when members speak from the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, can the Information and Communication Technology, ICT, look into that, please? Hon Deputy President, we will look into that. You may proceed.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much hon House Chair. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order, hon members, what is wrong now? Can we allow the Deputy President to respond?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you much hon House Chair. Hon Hendricks, thank you very much for your proposals from ... if I heard him correctly, I think he spoke about

Mbhase and Coffee Bay. Let me say to hon Hendricks that indeed we want to assist rural communities.

The reason why we want to have this meeting with Traditional Leaders is because some of them have already got proposals, some of them are already embarking on economic initiatives which as national government working with provinces and municipalities must assist them to succeed.

So hon Hendricks, those proposals can definitely come to us. I do hope that once we have had the meeting with the Traditional Leadership, we will take those proposals into account. Thank you very much hon Hendricks. Thank you hon Chair.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you Chair. One of the major issues affecting communities living under the authority of Traditional Leaders is the question of access to land, particularly for women.

Former President Kgalema Motlanthe in his report to Parliament in which he reviewed legislation passed after 1994 described the manner in which Traditional Leaders were handling access

and rights to land of people living in areas under their control.

What engagements are you planning to have with Traditional Leaders to resolve this crisis? Do you agree with Motlanthe’s characterisation of Traditional Leaders as tin-pot dictators? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Mkhaliphi, as I said earlier on that we are indeed arranging this meeting to engage with Traditional Leaders. We will definitely look into the issue of women having access to land. I think it’s a noble thing that women should also have access to land.

I will be engaging with them and we will deal with this issue of access to land as well as other issues that they may be concerned about. Thank you very much.

Question 5:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, thank you, hon Majozi for your question. House Chair, the district development model has in the main been design to ensure the delivery of services to communities in an integrated manner.

In our view the district development model or DDM in short, is the golden opportunity to partner all spheres of government and civil society, to address critical challenges confronting the people at local level. Including attending to service delivery hotspots across the country, through the implementation of the whole of government approach.

The Presidency working with the Department of Cooperative

Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, and all relevant

role players will continue to fast tract the resolution of existing service delivery challenges by developing and
implementing targeted action plans involving all spheres of government.

In the coming year an aligned to responsibilities as assigned

by President Ramaphosa to the Deputy President. This work includes championing responses to problems identified in
specific municipalities, for resolution.


Beyond providing political leadership, together with colleagues in the department of CoGTA, National Treasury, Planning and Monitoring and Evaluation, we will zoom into the

issues of good governance as they have been consistently flagged by the Auditor General.

We will receive and strengthen intergovernmental relations to

assist municipalities, whose governance protocols are weak, resulting in a lot of financial leakages. And, in some
instance, collapse of the provision of basic services to the communities.

This calls on us to become more proactive and as such compel us to create any warning and quick response mechanisms to
areas where there are service delivery failures.


Part of the solution has to be building adequate capacity in municipalities, both at district and local level for them to
be able to discharge their service delivery mandate, more effectively.

Indeed, what fundamentally will assist us to turn around the situation will be the whole implementation of an improved district development approach by implementing the district development model. I Thank you, hon House Chair.

Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, thank you, hon Deputy President for the response on behalf of hon Majozi. Now, we know that the Presidency budget speech in 2019, identified:

The pattern of operating in silos as a challenge which led to lack of coherence in planning and implementation and has made monitoring and oversight of government’s programme difficult.
The consequence of this has been non optimal delivery of services and diminished impact on the triple challenges of
poverty, inequality and employment.

Now, the district development model deals on the White Paper on local government of 1998 which sought to ensure that:

Local government is capacitated and transformed to play a developmental role.

Now, the DDM hon Deputy President is not a new concept that came up last year. It is something in the 1997/ 2000 which we tried out in KwaZulu-Natal. Where we worked with provincial government, national government and local government, but we had our fair amount of challenges. But is good that this model is being brought back on the table. Now, I am also glad that you mentioned the Auditor General because good governance is

certainly a pipe dream, in many, many of our municipalities and that is something we see from the AG’s report.

Now, my question hon Deputy President would be; considering that national government departments, owe municipality almost R23 billion. I would like to know how would address the issue of non-payment as it directly impacts the local government’s ability to collaborate with other spheres of government? So, that is my question hon Deputy President. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before the Deputy President respond, please stop disturbing people about time. I have Rule 142(5), you must read it, it tells us how many minutes each person has. So, we know what we are doing.
Proceed hon Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, hon Singh indeed, the district development model intends to ensure that we don’t work in silos. So, we want to integrate, we want national government, provinces, municipalities to even combine not only their plans but also resources.

Because, often you find another arm of government keeping resources in a particular way, other one going in a particular way, in the same district. So, this time we are saying let’s integrate.

I see that this is something that is really at the bottom of your heart. And I am sure you will be working with us, as we rollout. We are rolling out now, we are going to all the provinces, throughout the country, to ensure that this must be the way of life.

No government department must operate in a silo. We bringing them together, we bringing municipalities together, national government ... because in the past, you will find a national government department launching a project in the province and the province is not even there, and people complained “what is this Minister doing”? So, the district development model is going to end all that. To ensure that we pool in the same direction.

The issue of monies owed by national government to municipalities, indeed, we are already engaging with the national government on this question. And our message is very

simple; (a) the municipalities. That’s the message to national government. Because we can’t as national government ask others to pay if we don’t, so the buck stops with us.

National department must pay municipalities, otherwise we cripple them. Then we are going to stand on national platform and say, “oh municipalities are unviable, they are dysfunctional” so, we must lead by example to make and strengthen municipalities by amongst others paying them and we will do so. Lot of money of course but over time, we will make sure that municipalities must receive what is due to them.
Thank you very much for the question.

Ms N T MKHATSHWA: House Chair, thank you very much to the Deputy President, DP and welcome DP. DP as the ANC we truly do believe in the idea of the district development model to have one district with one plan and one budget in ensuring that we are able to address the inequalities that have been referred to in terms of unemployment, inequality and poverty.
Particularly for young women and persons living with disabilities ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister Ndabeni, please mute. Proceed hon member. I hope that the Deputy President was able to catch the part where there was noise.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: If you may repeat that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You may repeat, you are allowed. Please reset the clock.

Ms N T MKHATSHWA: Thank you House Chair, we had welcomed the DP and thank you very much for your earlier responses. So, I was saying as the ANC we truly do believe in the district development model being a golden opportunity for us maximize on the resources that government has, to ensure that we address issues of inequality, poverty and unemployment.
Particularly for youth, women and persons living with disabilities.

I think it has to be a multiple-pronged approach amongst ourselves in ensuring implementation of the district development model. As Parliament, we are playing our role in holding departments to account on how they are contributing to

the fruition and realisation of the district development model.

I can speak about science and innovation and how there are so many innovations and research that does to speak how we can address the social cohesion to the society that need to be implemented across departments and at the various spheres of government. That is our contribution to ensuring the realising the issue of district development model. Can you take us through what other initiatives and plans you have as the Office of the Deputy President to enhance the implementation
... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... to realisation of the district development model. I Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, there ‘somebody disturbing me that side. Hon Mkhatshwa, most definitely I agree with you, that we have to have a multi-pronged approach in strengthening the district
development model. You have indicated involvement of women, people living with disabilities, basically involving everyone.

And our approach as we government is to ensure that when we roll out district development model. We don’t just roll it out

as a concept but as something that is practical on the ground. Last week, I was saying to the team in my office that when we deal with service delivery challenges and we go out as the President said we should, we should operate in that fashion.
We are not going to go out in any province as national government. When we go out in any province as national government. When we go out, we must meet with the provinces, we must meet with municipalities and whatever we do pull in other stakeholders.

Because, remember when we deal with development, stakeholders are not just the three spheres of government. There are traditional leaders out there, you have nongovernmental organizations, NGOs. Let’s find a way of involving everybody in this approach. You have sport bodies; everybody has a stake in ensuring that development takes place.

So, we are going to continue to innovate. I know that it’s a model that everybody says we should continue to improve. So, we are going to do that and ensure that we don’t leave anybody behind, everybody must get involved. Thank you very much hon Mkhatshwa, thank you House Chair.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, Deputy President, if one evaluates the last 25 years of local government, one sees that there has been a tendency to make municipalities bigger, thus we have less municipalities than we had in 1998. I think we are about five times less, if one goes and look at the number of municipalities we have currently.

We also have a lot of functions that are budgeted for and money is appropriated through the Division of Revenue Bill, towards district municipality. But district municipality does not function. They don’t do anything and they are actually just institution that pays salaries. More than 80% of the budgets are dispersed with regards to salaries.

The bigger and bigger municipalities get less service delivery as provided to communities. If one looks at the goal of the district development model, it actually addresses ... [Interjection.] ... don’t you think we should follow the recommendation of Fiscal and Finance Commission and make municipalities smaller again and let service delivery closer to the people? [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chairperson, thank you very much hon Wessels. No, we did not make municipality bigger and bigger, we have just aligned them for better coordination, that’s what we did. And I will tell you why. If you look at some of what you refer to as smaller municipalities, they did not even have a revenue base, operate on their own.

So, in truth they were not real municipalities. I will give you example, in Johannesburg in the past, lot of small municipalities - so, Sandton was a municipality on its own and it had factories in Wynberg, Bramley and all those surrounding areas, I not am sure if you know Joburg but if you move to Alexandra. Alexandra was a municipality as well and it had no single factory that it could lay before any revenue. But we have a mayor of Rev Sam Buti, may his soul rest in peace, dress in nice mayoral robes no revenue base, nothing. But he was called a mayor of a municipality and those of you who know Alex from 2nd avenue to 22nd avenue, just houses. You know it, so you agree with what I am saying. He agrees.

So the point I am making ... no, no, you must understand. You said you want questions to the Deputy President answered. So,

hon Wessels I am saying therefore that the district that we created was for coordination. We didn’t expect district to be delivering, they were coordinating the municipalities. We didn’t kill the small municipalities, but we coordinate them in those districts. And it really improved the operation of those municipalities. So, if you argue that we just need to have smaller municipalities separate ... some of them won’t be able even to remove garbage.

They have no revenue base. So, I think must proceed with the issue of district municipalities, to coordinate municipalities and where possible continue to amalgamate some of them, as we have been doing, so that they become viable. There’s no need to say you have a municipality when people just wake up, go there, wait for their salaries, there’s nothing they can do.
So, our approach is correct. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

Ms E R J SPIES: House Chairperson, Deputy President I find your responses indeed, very different in comparison with the Deputy Minister Tau last week. Deputy President, a great majority of the district municipalities in this country is dysfunctional. They are a strain on the fiscus, have no real

income of their own and only take money that could be going to local municipalities or provinces.

These municipalities impose water, waste, ... [Inaudible.] ... service levies on citizens, which should be included in the services from the equitable share. District municipalities cannot get their salaries both under 50% without outside intervention. How can they reasonable be expected to deliver the services they claim are circumscribe to the Constitution? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, let me ask the member, if you may hon member favour me with the list of some of those municipalities you have observed. I would like to look at them. Yah, I would like to look at them because we have made clear that we want municipalities to function and be viable. We are doing our own assessment as well, but if you have done so, give me that list, I will sit with my team, look at it. Because we will be visiting some of the areas. It may that is the area that you have identified.

But, let me put it this way, the commitment of our government is to have viable municipalities. Whatever we do now, we are

going to intervene to ensure that municipalities are not constituted by people who go and collect salaries. It must be an institution that serves communities, remove garbage, clean the streets, deal with potholes and deal with those issues that bring better live for people.

If people are just going to an office to collect salaries, then they shouldn’t be there. It means kahle kahle awukho umasipala uma sekunjalo [in reality it means there’s no municipality, if it’s like that]. So our commitment is to have viable municipalities. Thank you very much, hon member and thank you, House Chair.

Question 6:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, we are gravely concerned about the current state of our local government, not only in Kopanong Municipality, but across the whole country. The situation calls for immediate interventions by all spheres of government, as a practical illustration of the District Development Model that we have just spoken about, to improve service delivery of services at local government level, as we have referred to earlier. In line with this year’s water week, which began on 20 March and will end this

Sunday, with the focus and I quote: “Accelerating Change”, the government on its part is embarking on a number of turnaround efforts. Amongst these is ensuring the necessary speed in initiatives that are aimed at ensuring that all citizens have access to reliable water services, and embarking on necessary water conservation measures.

Furthermore, the 2021 state of local government report identified Kopanong Local Municipality as a service delivery hotspot, and as a dysfunctional municipality. When the disaster occurred through the collapse of a dam wall in Jagersfontein in September 2022, government moved with speed to ensure that the situation does not get worse than it already was. We are pleased to report that water supply in the Kopanong Municipality was restored to full capacity as part of the rapid response intervention by the Department of Water and Sanitation, and the Water Board, that’s the Bloem Water Board.

The Department of Water and Sanitation, in partnership with Bloem Water, has put in place the following tangible interventions to ensure availability of water in Kopanong Municipality: First, two 18 000 litre water tankers were deployed to Jagersfontein in the morning of 12 September 2022,

and were operational in the area for three months; secondly, re-operationalisation of the water treatment works in the area has been completed. A backup generator has been installed for supply of electricity to the plant due to power being affected by the collapse of the sludge dam; power restoration was conducted by Centlec, a local electricity distributor, on 14 September 2022, which enabled water treatment works to operate at full capacity.


USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Awuwa, ningayifederisi indaba, naseyinje!




We apologise, hon Deputy President, these are the problems we encounter. Hon members on the virtual platform, I take this minute to say please check your gadgets and mute them. You are really disturbing us. Mute your gadgets.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, this intervention assisted to restore bulk water distribution to other areas except at the time for Charlesville in the Jagersfontein and Fauresmith towns, respectively, and this was due to a pipeline which was damaged by the flooding. On 13 October 2022, a new bulk pipeline was laid by the maintenance team of Bloem Water in the area of Charlesville, to supply the community with bulk water from the treatment works. On 21 October 2022, the last portion of the pipeline supplying Charlesville which was damaged in the disaster was repaired and commissioned to supply the whole area with bulk water storm from the treatment works. A series of water quality tests were conducted by both Bloem Water and the Department of Water and Sanitation throughout the three months since the disaster happened. On 14 September 2022, 45 000 litres of water tanker from Coca Cola Beverage Africa was deployed to Charlesville to augment water supply to the community.

Regrettably, Bloem Water have since informed the Kopanong Municipality that it will not be able to continue supplying water at full capacity due to nonpayment of the outstanding debt. Until now, the municipality has not honoured payment of the current account nor provided a realistic payment plan

covering the historic debt to Bloem Water. This has finally led to a decision by the company to once again restrict water at 30% to all nine towns in the Kopanong Municipality. As government we remain committed to intervening in resolving the impasse. In this regard, the Department of Water and Sanitation is playing a co-ordinating role in ensuring that all stakeholders such as Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, Bloem Water, the office of the premier, and the municipality, are planning together to find permanent solutions in restoring water and wastewater infrastructure.

Cogta and Water and Sanitation are in consultation with the Free State provincial government to invoke section 139 of the Constitution, to be read with section 63 of the Water Services Act, 1997, which will be a targeted intervention on the water and sanitation affairs of the municipality. Improvement in the delivery of services at local government level, including the provision of water and sanitation, is a critical aspect of our development agenda. It is for this reason that we are planning to conduct a series of outreach programmes with special focus on service delivery challenges at local government level including in Kopanong Municipality. This is aimed at turning

around the situation for the betterment of our people. Therefore, we have been planning this. The President has asked us to go to areas where there are challenges and hotspot to work with provinces municipalities to resolve the ... [Inaudible.] ... we have included Kopanong Municipality as one of the areas we will also visit in the coming weeks. Thank you very much, House Chair.

Ms H DENNER: Thank you, Deputy President for the answer. Deputy President, I’m not sure who gave you your information, but the situation in Kopanong has been deteriorating for seven years. This municipality was a disaster before the disaster and before it was declared a disaster. People have been struggling with adequate supply of water in this municipality for seven years. This is a forgotten municipality. I don’t know if the ruling ANC just forgot about the Kopanong because you don’t know how to fix what you broke. However, the Constitution guarantees the residents of Kopanong access to adequate water supply. They are not currently receiving that.

Now, I’m hearing things about outreach programmes and committed to intervening, playing a co-ordinating role between stakeholders and planning together and whatever. Thank you,

Deputy President, for the beautiful words, but these words won’t put water in the taps of the residents of Kopanong. What will be done to ensure that this municipality is able to honour its payment agreement of the outstanding debt of
R600 million to Bloem Water in order for them to lift ... [Inaudible.] ... of 30% water supply to the people of Kopanong, because these people are suffering, Deputy President, and outreach programmes will not help them. They need water. Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Denner. Thank you for informing me that the situation has been deteriorating for many years. Just maybe bring you to speed is not just good words. I have already appointed a team that by now probably might be already be in Kopanong before I arrive, because we have decided that we need to ensure that when the President said go and intervene I don’t want to be on jolly rides. Therefore, I’ve appointed a team to go to these areas before I arrive so that when I arrive there must be a solution. I’m not going to an Imbizo ...


... ukuthi hhayi bantu bakithi nikhala ngani.


No, I already know the team and must tell me this is what we must do to address this problem before I arrive. Therefore, this is not beautiful words. It is words of action. We are going to Kopanong. However, the crack team is already there to ensure that they can tell us what the problems are and we won’t do it only in Kopanong. The President said go to all the hotspots where there are challenges, and where there are problems we know.

In short, hon Denner, we will be going to Kopanong, and we will attend to the challenges because we know that water is very important for the survival of people. We use water to drink, to cook, and to wash. Therefore, for us is a priority and we are going out there to fix the problem. Thank you very much.

Ms G K TSEKE: House Chair, and ...


... ke go leboge ...


... Deputy President of the country. I think this year the ANC has declared this year as a year of decisive action to advance the people’s interests. I think that is what we are doing to address the people’s challenges. Deputy President, recognising that all various departments and all spheres of government such as Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Water and Sanitation and the Free State province are considering a section 139 and section 63 of the Water Services Act respectively. What are the critical interventions required to support Kopanong Municipality and other municipalities facing similar challenges to be financially viable? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon member Tseke. Hon House Chair, as we go out to deal with service delivery challenges in municipalities, we all have to be cognisant of the fact that we want viable municipalities.
Therefore, we must assist them to survive long after we’re gone because it doesn’t help to go into the area and you assist people as soon as we have left they collapse.
Therefore, we are looking at long term. When we get there we are not just saying to Kopanong that okay, now we have resolved the problem of Bloem Water and you supply water and

we leave. We must look at what are other challenges that will make this municipality survive. Municipalities don’t survive when they don’t have an economic based, when they don’t have revenue and waiting for national government to give them grants. We must help municipalities to survive and to have an economy based.

Therefore, we will do that in Kopanong as we will do in other municipalities. Our intervention team is collecting all the data and we will know everything before we get there.
Everywhere we go we want to know everything about the area, what are the possible solutions because our mission is to resolve the problem for the betterment of our people not for the short-term or the long-term. That’s why I’m going to these areas sooner rather than later because if I go later they’ll say that I’m campaigning for elections. So I’m going to go now, not later. I know hon Mkhaliphi will say, awe, he’s campaigning now. No, I’m going now. I’m going now long before the campaign starts. Ja, although I know that some others are already started campaigning ...


 ... thina asikaqali. Sizolungisa izinto ngaphambi ngokuba siqale.


Hon House Chair, thank you very much. We will attend to the problem of Kopanong. Thank you, hon Tseke.

Mr L J BASSON: House Chair, through you to the Deputy Minister, what actions if any ... I’m sorry, Deputy President, my apologies. Deputy Present what actions ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! He said my apologies and continue to speak. Proceed, hon Basson.

Mr L J BASSON: Deputy President, what actions, if any, did your government take to address the root cause of the tailings dam disaster in Jagersfontein and prevent similar incidents from occurring in the future? And what are the long-term plans to ensure that our community have sustainable access to clean drinking water in Jagersfontein? And then, Deputy President, if we are really want to assist the people in Jagersfontein the department must withdraw the water licence in Kopanong and

what is your view on that so that Bloem Water can deliver water directly to the community? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before you respond I hope you know, hon Basson, that you are allowed to ask one supplementary question and you asked three. However, Deputy President, is up to you to respond. Thank you.


there’s a team that we have send out and I’m going there we will know what plans we must put in place. Therefore, I won’t say now. Check me when I come back and I’ll tell you what the plans are. We are going there, yes, long before elections.
Thank you very much.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Deputy President ... [Interjections.] ... can I be protected

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Ignore.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Okay. Deputy President, the Kopanong Municipality is an indication of the general state of municipalities in the country. When I was listening to you,

you said that you have already have a team that has been sent to this municipality. And earlier on you said that you must be provided with the list of all dysfunctional municipalities. Do you have plans or you don’t have a plan because you’re talking about hotspots? You’re talking about a team that has been established by yourself before you even come here, to do what. What is the timeframe? Can you just be clear so we can walk along with you? This is a very serious issue. This is a very serious issue, please don’t howl at me. So, do you have a plan or you don’t have a plan, Deputy President, because we have experience of water crisis, we have experience of potholes in the roads, and when you come here you tell us plans, but your plans are not clear. Can you just be clear and tell us what the timeframe of your team is, and which other municipalities that you are attending to as you said that your President ... [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, I think hon Mkhaliphi was not listening to me attentively. I will repeat and you’ll get it properly. I said that I have appointed a team that must go out to municipalities where there are service delivery challenges hotspots ... [Inaudible.] ... and Kopanong will be included. Therefore,

they’ve already gone out. So, you don’t do plans just sitting in the office, you need to be informed what the challenges are, right. Therefore, I could have sat at the Union Building and come up with plans. No, we need to know exactly all the details because these areas are not the same. These municipalities are not the same so you can’t come with just one blanket solution. All we can assure you is that we will be there on the ground. We will be working with municipalities and provinces. I did say earlier sooner rather than later. I think I said that. Sooner rather than later.

In other words in the next few weeks I’ll be on the road and the team is gone already, few weeks I’m on the road. So, once we have moved in we’ll have plans, we’ll have timeframes because we don’t want to have plans and timeframes ...


... tsa maaka ...


... we want real ones because I can please you with timeframes that I’ve drawn sitting in the office. No, I want real ones.
No, no, the ANC doesn’t do that, we’ll give you plans that are

real, that are going to ensure because at the end of the day is about our people. We don’t want to lie to our people when we say that we can fix this this way we are going to do it. However, otherwise thank you very much for the question. Thank you, hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Deputy President. Thank you very much. It was your first ... [Inaudible.] ... question session, and we really appreciate you coming and answering in the House. Thank you. Thank you, hon members.


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Ngakho ongasukumanga uzoxoshwa, Sihlalo?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We proceed. Hon Mkhaliphi, order! Hon members, order! Hon members, please, we must proceed. We have a lot of work ahead of us for today and hon Mkhaliphi, you know that you can’t press that microphone and speak. You know that very well, please don’t do that. I will now ask the Secretary to read the First Order.


There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the House adopt this report. Thank you.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.


(Second Reading Debate)

Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon House chairperson, let me take this opportunity to greet the former chairperson of Standing Committee on Appropriations, the deputy president of the National African Congress, the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa.


Niyayibona ke indlela ihamba kuphi. [Uhleko.]


Hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Comrade Pemmy Majodina, hon Ministers, Deputy Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the African National Congress supports the 2023 Division of Revenue Bill and we hope all political parties will do so for the sake of about 60 million of country whose lives are dependent on this Bill. The Bill divides national raised revenue among nine provincial governments and 257 municipalities to enable them to deliver services to South Africans.

The passing of this Bill is critical to enable government to pay teacher, nurses, and police. It allows government to provide food to more than 9 million children at school, who would otherwise go the whole day without eating anything, and literally all the services that government provides.


Siyacela ukuthi laba abaphikisana nohulumeni kaKhongolose bangasebenzisi lo Mthetho ukuvimba ukuthi abantu baseNingizimu Afrika bancedeke.


We are therefore saying, think twice before you reject this Bill for many to South Africans, especially black people, the victims of more than three and a half centuries of deliberate exclusion from decent education, health, infrastructure and so on. The passing of this Bill is very important for their sustenance.

It is important to note that the 2023 Budget increases allocations for all three spheres of government. This happens despite the very challenging economic conditions in the country and globally. Revenue that is distributed is
R1,689 Trillion, 49% of which goes to national government, 41,2 to provinces and 9,7 to local government. In line with the call by South African Local Government Association, Salga, Financial and Fiscal Commission and Parliamentary Budget Office, there is gradual movement for more resources to local government. For instance, in 2025 national government allocation decreases to 48,3 while local government allocation

increases to 10,1% over the MTEF direct provincial allocations increase by R92,7 billion to R2,17 trillion. Local government allocations increase by R14,3 billion to R521, 7 billion over the same period.

This Bill is deliberately redistributive. Although metropolitan municipalities account for 70,1% of personal income tax revenue, metros only receive 32,6% of local government transfers.


Sithi siwuhulumeni oholwa nguKhongolose sifuna izimali ziye kohulumeni basemakhaya ngoba yibo abaseduze nabantu okulula kubona ukusheshe bafike lapho kunezidingo khona. Sekela Mongameli abantu bakithi bayasizwa sikhuluma ngezigidigidi zezimali kodwa zigcina zingafikile kubona. Siyacela ke kubaphathiswa, amakhansela, abaqondisi jikelele ukuthi izimali nezidingo zifinyelele ngesikhathi kubantu bakithi.

Ave kuyichilo futhi kuyihlaso ukubona imali iphindela kuMgcinimafa ekupheleni konyaka, kuthiwa ayisebenzanga kodwa abantu bebulawa yinkengane, bedla imbuya ngothi.


South Africa is a unitary state, hon Steenhuisen, it allows the people of our country to share nationally raised revenue. There is a tendency of the beneficiaries of the sweat and blood of our fore fathers and mothers to want to monopolise this revenue. We, as the ANC, are deliberate in redistributing essential resources from urban areas to fund rural services.
Less we forget Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and other affluent areas were direct recipients of migrant labour system after which our people were dumped in the arid labour reserves, the so called homelands. With this Bill we are correcting that mess.


Silungisa amahliphihliphi kaJan van Rebeeck, amahliphihliphi kaVerwoerd no-Voster noBotha noMongameli wokugcina wedlanzana labamhlophe uF W De Klerk.


In fact, hon members, we must reject the selections tendencies of the DA.


Ningacabangi ukuthi asiniboni, senithi nifuna amaphoyisa manje. Amaphoyisa aphethwe uhulumeni kaZwelonke, uhulumeni okhethwe ngabantu, uhulumeni oholwa i-African National Congress.


The consideration model was correctly defeated at the Convention for a Democratic South Africa, CODESA, do not bring it through the back door. The President, His Excellency has been at pains to stress the need for higher growth rates for South Africa. That he did when he presented the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP. In that plan he identified spending on infrastructure as what will pull the economy by its straps out of stagnation. He said, I quote: Infrastructure has immense potential to stimulate investment and growth, to develop other economic sectors and create sustainable employment, both directly and indirectly.”

The Bill allocates resources for health, schools, bridges, dams, roads infrastructure. An example is the Welisizwe Rural Bridges Programme Of R3,7 billion. The sight of our children crossing overflowing rivers with their books on their heads is painful one.

Hon members, this massive infrastructure programme we are embarking upon ... [Inaudible.] ... properly implemented, must achieve inclusive economic growth, low debt and less debt service costs, broad black economic empowerment which must be achieved by using public procurement.


Uhulumeni ka-ANC usikhiphile le samba semali ukuthi kwakhiwe amabhuloho ukuze izingane zethu zikwazi ukufinyelela ezikoleni.


Again, hon members, before you vote no to this Bill think of the little children who go to school hungry. Think of those young ones who must cross overflowing rivers. Before you vote no think about interventions on early child development ...


... omuntuza.


Before you vote no to this Bill, think of the teachers, police and nurses who wake up every day to teach and serve people of South Africa.


U-ANC uyawuxhasa lo Mthetho. Ngiyabonga.

Mr A N SARUPEN: I would like to say to my second favourite Chief Whip – the Chief Whip of the ANC that ... this platform is high enough for me but in the old Chamber I needed the step. Mr House Chair, let me start by responding to some comments from the hon Buthelezi. When he speaks of redistribution from urban to rural centres, the 1990s called and they want their policies back. Because in 2023, 66% of all South Africans live in 13 major urban and secondary cities. We have to start remembering that when we make policies that there are as many urban poor as there are rural poor and they must not be left behind in policy and legislation either, and that we must treat people as people and individuals as equal.

The Division of Revenue Bill that we are debating here today, that regrettably the hon Buthelezi didn’t get ... [Inaudible.]
... is meant to equitably – and the key word is equitably -

divide revenue between national, provincial and local governments. On 19 October last year, the Ekurhuleni Metro prepared a council item that was made for fascinating reading, and it goes as follows: Because of load shedding, the metro now spends R3,5 million in generators to keep critical functions going. Cable faults cause the municipality
R200 000 a day because of load shedding. Switchgear failure because of load shedding costs the municipality a R100 000 a day. Theft and vandalism of energy infrastructure during load shedding costs the municipality R350 000 a day. Additional overtime to theft repairs, to energy equipments as a result of load shedding runs to R75 000 a day. Keeping water and waste water treatment and sanitation infrastructure functioning during load shedding costs the municipality R595 800 a day.

In addition to this, load shedding costs the municipality as much as R350 million a day and lost revenue. This illustrates a critical point for me that the municipal funding model is broken. The financial model is based on the 1998 White Paper on Local Government and the model presumes that municipalities would be able to raise 90% of its own revenue based on property taxes and reselling, particularly energy, which for the last 20 years was critical to keeping local government

functional and to allow cross subsidisation of services of particularly the poor. This model, as I have said, is now broken. When the municipality can’t resell electricity for 12 hours a day, it loses a third of its revenue and its budget become unfunded.

So, the old funding model no longer works and it is causing a service delivery crisis across the country. It is broken because the national governments have failed to ensure consistence energy supply and saddled us with load shedding. It’s broken because the national governments did not invest in sufficient water infrastructure and climate change mitigation leading to a water supply crisis across the country.

Even if we were to correct the situation right now, which in the medium term I’m afraid is not likely, high value consumers and industrial customers have move to alternative solutions.
It is solo or self-generation which means that water and energy it’s no longer the municipal cash cow that it used to be, and municipalities only have ... [Inaudible.] ... it comes to consumers left. Again, financial model is broken. Despite this the Division of Revenue Bill will only increase allocations for municipality by inflation. It will grow from

R96 billion in the current budget year to R103 billion next year and to R109 billion the year after - as I said, it’s only 5,9% per annum over the medium term. National government’s spending of course will grow at a significant magnitude over that time from R1,3 trillion to R1,55 trillion over the three- year period.

Provinces where critical services like education and health care is administered and delivered will only grow 2,8% over the medium term. So, what we are seeing in the Division of Revenue Bill is the effect of national governments prioritising municipality and projects and bail outs and high level of debts over service delivery. It is unsustainable and it is causing a crisis at local and provincial and regional provincial governments.

Section 214, subsection 1 of the Constitution requires that revenue is equitably divided between the three spheres of government. The intenders of this Rule and the Constitution wanted to ensure that all powerful national governments cannot starve local and provincial governments of the resources they need to fulfil their mandates. It is intended to prevent the exact situation that is unfolding before us. Unfortunately,

national government is not providing equity for revenue anymore to provincial local governments in light of the fact that the financial model is broken. This time, ahead of the next Division of Revenue Bill, to do a comprehensive review of the funding model for local governments or the ... [Time expired.] Thank you, House Chair.

Mr M N PAULSEN: I have to lift this microphone quite a bit. [Laughter.] House Chairperson, allow me to begin by greeting the EFF president and commander-in-chief - Comrade president Julius Malema, officials of the EFF, members of the student command team, fighters and all South Africans. Let me also echo the sentiments of the commanding chief and wish fellow Moslems a Ramadan Kareem, may this auspicious month be characterised by Islam’s core values of compassion, mutual respect and humility. The president of the EFF held the press conference today and extended his gratitude to the SA Federation of Trade Unions, Saftu, ATM, PAC, the Land Party and Areta, the African Radical Economic Transformation Alliance – and the progressive forces which supported the national shutdown.

No fear mongering, no state-sponsored intimidation and no amount of whiteness will stop our people from voicing their frustration. The people of Langa, Delft, Khayelitsha, Gugulethu, Mitchells Plain – the Cape Flats, here in Cape Town and from everywhere came in numbers to demand electricity, to demand jobs, to demand an end to gender-based violence and crime and to demand food security – we salute them. The Coloured working class people have sent a strong message to the ANC and the DA that they are not voting for them and should be treated with disdain and isolation. They are sending this message and eventually more and more would realise that they too stand to benefit from economic emancipation. The EFF rejects the austerity Division of Revenue Bill of the illegitimate government under the incapable leadership of Cyril Ramaphosa.

The Division of Revenue Bill is legislation that is proposed in the National Assembly ... [Interjections.] ... by the Minister of ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Paulsen, would you just take your seat. Why would you want to intervene, hon member? [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, the member on the podium has referred to the President on first name terms. It’s against Rule 82 ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Paulsen, we refer to each other not on first name terms or surname only. We refer to each other in respectful terms. Will you do so.

Mr M N PAULSEN: I said Cyril Ramaphosa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member ...

Mr M N PAULSEN: Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please continue.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Last week on 16 March, the National Assembly held mini-plenaries and in one of the mini-plenaries we debated the current fiscal framework, municipalities and constitutional mandates. We know that the people will always be against radical and bold steps towards new ideas, especially when those ideas are based on better logic – but we are glad that the tide has started to turn on this issue. From

the debate we agreed that the current fiscal framework, in particular the Division of Revenue Bill and the equitable share formula is not working. We agreed that the municipalities cannot collect meaningful revenue if we have
11 million people unemployed and 18 million dependent on social grant. We agreed that municipalities cannot deliver water, electricity, sanitation and roads with the current budgets.

We also agreed that the current Division of Revenue Bill perpetuates unsustainable migration toward metropolitan areas in search of jobs and better livelihoods. If you want to change dysfunctional spatial planning and depopulate the cities of Johannesburg, Durban, Cape Town and other highly populated cities, we must start with the fiscal framework and the Division of Revenue Bill.

What is to be done? Let’s agree on new assumptions to develop a new approach to the Division of Revenue Bill. Let’s allocate the majority of resources to the municipalities as they are responsible for the delivery of services. Let’s appreciate that municipalities are not private companies selling goods and services to our people and that they are not there to make

profits. The current backlog, for example in the Western Cape is 35 000 houses to house the homeless people in Cape Town, and more than 24 000 outside the metro. We would require an excess of R100 billion to clear the backlog. But we need to adopt an EFF’s approach to housing and infrastructure delivery. Because, just like this ANC government, the DA in the Western Cape outsources these projects to the friends and funders. We could eradicate poverty while addressing the housing the housing shortage if we develop the state’s capacity to insource housing and infrastructure development.

Lastly, all municipalities must build internal capacity, drive local industrialisation and prioritise infrastructure development. And this is dependent on a progressive Division of Revenue Bill that is not driven by austerity. Thank you very much.


Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Sihlalo weNdlu ohloniphekile, ngibingelele nakusihlalo wekomidi uMvulane namaLungu onke eNdlu ehloniphekile, thina njengeNkatha Sihlalo akuningi engahle sikuphawule kulo mbiko wanamuhlanje okwehlukile esabelweni sezimali ekade sisidingida kanye nesimo sezwe

sezimali kanye nolwabiwomali. Ukuhlinzekwa kwezimali kwizingqalasizinda kube yisenzo esiphusile ohlangothini lukaHulumeni kanye nokuqaphelisisa isimo senhlekelele izingqalasizinda zethu ezibhekene naso nesidingo sokwakhiwa kabusha kwezingqalasizinda.

Isifiso sethu njengeqembu leNkatha sisodwa, sithi, sengathi zonke izimali lezi ezabiwayo ... [Akuzwakali.] ... ahlukene ziyafikelela kubantu futhi zifeze lokho ezihlinzekwele ukuthi zikwenze. Sengathi singabe sisakubona esijwayele ukukubona kuHulumeni ne-ANC esidume ngakho ukwebiwa kwezimali nokukhwabanisa. Ngendlela efanayo siyathokoza kakhulu, Sihlalo, ukubona uMnyango Wezemfundo unikwa imadlana ethe xaxa ikakhulukazi ezinhlelweni zokukhuliswa kwezingane zethu kanye nokuthwalwa kwazo ezikoleni. Kodwa, Sihlalo, kuyofanela ukuba zonke izingqalasizinda zemfundo zibhekisiswe ngoba yizona eziqinisekisa izinga lemfundo esililindele njengezakhamuzi.

Siyazi ukuthi izwe lethu alimile kahle kwezomnotho nokuthi ngeke likwazi ukuqoqa inkece elingene uma uqhathanisa nezidingo zalo kodwa ngobadlana nje esinalo singenza lukhulu uma kuphela ilizwe liphethwe ngabaholi abaqotho nezisebenzi ezizimisele ngokuphelele enkonzweni yesizwe.

Lo mkhuba onengayo nesesiwuthatha njengowamkelekile wokuthi imnyango ibeke izilinganiso ehluleka ukuzifeza
...[Akuzwakali.] ... izinkece, ibe nemibiko yezimali eziyichithayo engenayo imithelela emihle kufanele kube yinto yesikhathi esidlule sibhekane nakho silwisane nakho ukuze yonke iminyango kaHulumeni isebenze ngendlela efanele.

Inzukaskeyi, Sihlalo, enkulu kunazo zonke wudaba lomasipala abaphihlikayo nabahlulekayo ukufeza imisebenzi ngendlela efaneleyo. Sonke siyazi ukuthi omasipala banguHulumeni osekhaleni kubantu bakithi nabafikelelayo kuyo kuqala uma benezinkinga.

Thina njengeqembu leNkatha siyakholelwa ukuthi isikhathi sesifikile sokuthi sibhekane ngqo nezinkinga zomasipala, kulungiswe uzinzo lwezepolitiki komasipala futhi kuqinisekiswe futhi ukuthi bonke omasipala bethu banamakhona afanele ngoba uma ubona iminyaka oHulumeni basemakhaya abanayo kufanele ngabe iminyaka isichaza ulwazi olunzulu ezisebenzini zikaHulumeni.

Lesi simo, Sihlalo, sikhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi ingqikithi yenkinga yethu ayiphathelene nje nomasipala nayo yonke

iminyango kodwa kakhulu ibheke ngqo eqenjini elibusayo okuyilona engathi liyahluleka ukuphatha. Sengiphetha, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ngifuna ukusho ukuthi, iqembu elibusayo Ilona eliyinhlekelele ezweni lethu hhayi zonke izinkinga esibhekene nazo.

Yinye kuphela into ekufanele ukuba siyenze, ngiyavumelana kakhulu nosihlalo wekomidi uma ebingelela isekela leqembu elibusayo aphinde abeyiSekela Mongameli wezwe wase ethi yiyona inyathuko le ekufanele kuhanjwe ngayo. Ngiyavuma Shenge ngelenyathuko kodwa esibhekise enhlekeleleni yoqobo.
Sesibonile ukuthi iqembu esalithemba lehlulekile, iqembu esalethemba alisithandi, yingakho ngisho imali ebhekele ukusiza ezindaweni zenhlekelele beyisusa komasipala ngoba abanendaba, baphila kude nezimo zoqobo abantu abaphila ngaphansi kwazo.

Sithi kubo bonke abantu baleli lizwe, abazi ukuthi isikhathi sesifikile ukuba iqembu elibusayo injobo ilingane umsinsila. Siyawuseka lo mbiko.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the hon. Buthelezi the chairperson of the committee, mentions Jan van Riebeeck as one

of the villains that are the creator and the cause of the suffering and problems facing South Africa. Now one must be honest when we talk about the crises facing ordinary South Africans.

Let’s look at the Division of Revenue, and the Hon Buthelezi is correct, it is very important, because it’s the livelihoods of a lot of people out there. The Division of Revenue provides for equitable share to municipalities to provide free electricity to 10 million poor households, but does the Hon Buthelezi know how many households receive free electricity?
Only 2 million.

Is that the fault of Jan van Riebeeck or is it the municipalities? No, it’s municipalities spending an equitable share on their stomachs. Its ANC cadres deployed in those municipalities waste equitable share that should go to the poor people. [Interjections.]

Mr H G APRIL: It’s Jan van Riebeeck’s fault!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon April, on the virtual platform, you were not recognised

and you switched on your microphone and you participated in the proceedings. May I caution you that if it happens again I will ask for you to be removed from the platform. Please continue, hon Wessels.


Ek dink nie die agb April herken meeste van die tyd homself nie. Minder as 32% van voorwaardelike toekennings, wat uit hierdie verdeling van billike aandeel aan munisipaliteite betaal word, is maar bestee teen die einde van Desember 2022. Dit moes toe al die helfte gewees het. Met ander woorde, daar gaan ’n onderbesteding op voorwaardelike toekennings wees.

Slegs 28% van kapitaalbegrotings van munisipaliteite is teen

31 Desember 2022 bestee. Met ander woorde, ’n groot onderbesteding. Daardie kapitaalbegrotings moet gebruik word om infrastruktuur reg te maak. Daardie voorwaardelike toekennings moet gebruik word om dit waarna die agb Buthelezi na verwys, te doen, maar dis onderbesteding aan die een kant en aan die ander kant word die geld gesteel.


It’s most probably also Jan van Riebeeck’s fault that there are construction mafias that operate in our municipalities and that is the reason for the fact that we are on the verge of a total collapse of infrastructure in South Africa. From our train systems, our public railway, to our roads, to our water treatment plants of which only 36% are functioning, 36%. Only 36% of water treatment plants in South Africa are functioning. But that is Jan van Riebeeck’s fault, 1652 and 2023.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. The ANC has completely lost the plot because they live in the past and they don’t see the suffering of the people. They allow their cadres to steal money and line their pockets for construction mafias to exploit municipalities, hard-earned tax money that is distributed to municipalities and government departments is stolen, misappropriated, and misused, over expenditure and no quality is rendered to the people out there. That is why we cannot support this Division of Revenue. This Parliament should do what it is supposed to do and make the Division of Revenue better but the committee of the Hon Buthelezi, failed. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can the hon Mashego please switch off your microphone? [Interjections.] It is a bit late now. I think you can discuss outside of the Chamber. [Interjections.] We are moving on with the debate. You should have taken a point of order at the time it happened.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chairperson. The ACDP has studied the report and shares concerns about the below inflation average increase of only 2,8% over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, in respect of provincial share of the national raised revenue. Provinces, as we know, do not have significant taxation powers and transfers through this Division of Revenue Bill account for about 97% of the provincial revenues. Free or low cost social services are provided by provinces including public basic education and healthcare, and this is placed at risk with this lower than inflation increase.

Chairperson, Treasury’s 2021-22, state of the local government finances report that 169 out of 257 municipalities at the end of the financial year, were in financial distress. That is the 2021-22 report. And the ACDP finds it alarming that this report notes a continued deterioration as only 66 of the 257

municipalities were in financial distress in 2010, a significant deterioration. Many municipalities failed to adopt funded budgets resulting in them not being financially sustainable. And we appreciate that the Deputy President said this is a grave crisis. So, what is being done to alleviate this crisis?

The situation has resulted in a collapse of services as other members have referred to. Potholes are rarely fixed, water and electricity cuts are regular. Municipal salaries in certain cases are also not being paid. Rate payers can rightfully feel that they are not getting value for their money. Service delivery protests are rife and often accompanied by violence and destruction of much needed infrastructure. This perhaps explains why increasing number of households are not paying municipal bills, as hard pressed households and businesses fail to pay municipal accounts. Revenue declines and municipalities in turn owe water boards and Eskom billions.
Eskom is owed a staggering R56 billion debt as referred to earlier by the Deputy President.

The Deputy President indicated that there will be more turnaround strategies. These in the past have showed little or

no improvement in the municipal financial situation. And clearly, the municipal funding model requires an urgent review.

Lastly, we share the concerns about the Municipal Emergency Housing Grant Framework, which has now been shifted to the National Department of Human Settlements. We support the report in this regard that Parliament must report on the rational for this shift. In view of the distress state of municipalities, regrettably, the ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair. Good will support this Bill. However, the largest crisis facing our nation is the continued economic environment that perpetuates poverty and unemployment. And unfortunately, we failed to tackle the right to social security appropriately. The stats being used in relation to poverty are outdated, and we are currently living in a post lockdown South Africa that is trying to recover. A thousands of jobs have been lost, life of those who live below the poverty line has worsened, and our country urgently needs new data as well as a new approach.

We will continue to call for ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I ask the information technology, IT, to disconnect that member who has intruded onto the system now. Hon Herron, you can continue.

Mr B N HERRON: Can I continue?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, please.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you. We will continue to call for the transformation or transforming of the Social Relief of Distress Grant, SRD Grant, into a basic income grant and to increase it to at least meet the food poverty line of R663 per month. A basic income grant will provide some dignity to our citizens with a relatively small income to meet the most basic human needs.

Our senior citizens can spend a lifetime contributing to the building of this country and contributing to our fiscus through income tax, debt, and other levies, are serious risk of falling below the upper bound poverty line as the cost of living rapidly rises. No citizen that has played a part in

building our country should have to worry if they can even exist in it. For these reasons, Good also calls for an urgent re-evaluation of the pension framework and that we start to restructure our budgets, so that we can raise the old age pension to a dignified level that at least our senior citizens from a pre precarious life.

Finally, House Chair, the solar energy initiatives linked to tax rebates and incentives are not nearly incentivizing enough non-inclusive, as the options provided, are not really accessible to any mid or low income South African.

While Good has always advocated for incentives in financing to invest in renewables, the measures raise the question of renewables for who. These incentives are a bonus for the rich, but do not address the energy crisis in our country. And this is a conceptual failure for utilizing the private sector or homeowners to alleviate load shedding. With a poverty pandemic and a load shedding crisis, we would have liked the budget to be more directly responsive to these existential crises. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson. I’m glad that the Chief Whip is in the House ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon, Shaik-Emam, will you just take your seat, please? Hon member, why do you want to be recognized?

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chair, Can I kindly request that the IT make the hon members on the Virtual Platform audible because I couldn’t hear the hon member?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): We will pay attention to that. Thank you. Hon Shaik-Emam, please continue.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... thank you, House Chairperson. I’m glad that the Chief Whip is here in the House. I would urge the Chief Whip to ensure that there’s paramedics on site because hon Radebe has been beating his hands so much supporting and clapping for the Deputy President. He might damage his hands and I’m a bit worried about that.

However, Chairperson, I would like to respond to the Freedom Front in particular. If you say something to the members of

the House and to the country, please say it with some truth. Let me just put you out of your misery.

The debt to gross domestic product, GDP, in 1994 was almost 46%. So, what does it tell you? You virtually handed over a bankrupt state. That is what you did in 1994. You messed up this country so bad. You violated the human rights of so many other people in this country, just for a handful to benefit from it. And after 29 years, we still have great difficulty in coming to terms with all the atrocities that were committed before 1994. So, I hope that you will take that into account.

Chairperson, I noticed a lot of emphasis on how much of money we are allocating to this department and that department, for this programme and that project. What we do not hear is what we get in return for the money we are allocating. And I think my current Chairperson of Standing Committee on Appropriations, and former Chairperson of Standing Committee on Appropriations will recall that we have raised the issue of value for money time and again. I think that’s where the emphasis must be. We are facing financial constraints, and the world is facing financial constraints. We need to emphasise on

ensuring that we get more for less. That’s what I think we need to do.

But very importantly, I want to suggest today, particularly to the Minister of Finance and National Treasury, I think it’s time that all police officers in the country and all health care workers ... We have forgotten the role they played during the covid. How many of them died? I think we should exempt all police officers and health care workers in South Africa from paying taxes. And I think that’s the least we can actually do for those that serve us and serve us so well. That’s another point that I wanted to make.

I want to go back to the issue of local government. The levels of corruption must be dealt with. If you don’t deal with that, you are never going to get the delivery of services. My time has run out. Thank you very much. We will support this Bill.

Mr O M MATHAFA: Hon House chair, Deputy President Mashatile, Chief Whip Majodina ...


Maaforika Borwa, Maloko a Palamente, dumelang.


To our Muslim brothers and sisters, Ramadaan Mubarak, In Allah



Ke rata go simolola ka go re lekoko la ANC le dumallana le pegelo e e leng mo pele ga rona.


House Chair, today’s debate takes place on a significant day in history, South African liberation day. On this day, in 1988, gallant heroes of the ANC’s uMkhonto weSizwe, MK, the Soviet Union, Angola, and Cuba decisively defeated the South African apartheid government forces, backed by the USA and many countries around the rest of the world.

The victory by progressive forces at Cuito Cuanavale led to quick and successful negotiations for Namibia’s independence in 1990 and the end of South Africa’s apartheid Administration in 1994, allowing the region to progress towards regional development and integration. Hon Shaik, these are some of the unnecessary decisions and battles by the National Party that bankrupted the state in the 1990s.

House Chair, provincial allocations are very important for the prosperity of the citizenry of the Republic. Provinces are responsible for providing social services like basic education for 13,4 million learners, and healthcare for 50,8 million South Africans without private medical insurance. As such, as the ANC, we welcome the increase in the provincial allocations from R695,1 billion in 2022-23 to R720,5 billion in 2024-25, growing at an annual average of 2,8% to R754,7 billion in 2025-26.

Over the 2023 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, a total of R1,8 trillion is allocated through the provincial equitable share, and the total R400,9 billion allocated through conditional grants. The above allocates proves the narrative that this is an austerity budget falls.

Hon Paulsen, that’s why the Division of Revenue Act, Dora, is responding to urban migration.


U engedzea ha tshivhalo tsha zwikolo zwi ?o?a vhagudisi vho ?ikumedzelaho na u ?iimisela. Rannda dza bi?ioni dza fumbili dzo avhelwa u lambedza vhagudisi mi?waha miraru i?aho. Hu ?o

dovha ha engedzwa R1,5 bi?ioni ya thandela ya u ?ea vhana zwi?iwa zwikoloni vhane vha e?ana 9 mi?ioni. Dzangano ?a DA na ?a EFF o vouta a tshi hanedza muvhigo uyu. Vha khou vouta vha tshi hanedzana na muvhuso kha fhungo ?a u ?ea vhana vha
9 mi?ioni zwi?iwa vhane vhunzhi havho zwa ?ivhea uri vha ?itika nga zwi?iwa zwi wanalaho muvhusoni. Ngauralo, ndi ngani vhone vha tshi nga nanga dzangano ?ine ?a hanedzana na u ?ea vhana zwi?iwa zwikoloni nga 2024 ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, can you take a seat, please? The interpretation services is not consistent. The interpreters get on to the system and they just keep quiet for a while whilst the debate is continuing. We cannot conduct the debate in that manner. I have asked the table staff earlier to alert them that they are not audible for lengthy periods of the debate. That must be attended to immediately. Otherwise, we won’t be able to proceed.

Hon members, I beg your indulgence, let’s not trade exchanges with one another because the sitting is still on. Proceedings haven’t been suspended. My apologies to the member on the podium.

Hon members, order. Now, this exchanges are unacceptable while we are still in session. I am going to suspend proceedings now for a few minutes, and the bells will be rung for a short while so that we can afford the member the opportunity to continue.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There is 11 official languages, and also sign language is soon to be introduced. It is unacceptable that the sitting of the National Assembly must be suspended. Whatever technical reasons or people not being in the interpretation booths ... we will get the report and ensure that corrective action must be taken. We cannot sabotage a sitting of the National Assembly when things are supposed to be done and it is not done. Once again, my apologies. I now request the hon member to continue with his speech.

Mr O M MATHAFA: Let me take the EFF out of their misery. I was saying, hon members, why would voters continue to vote for you when you reject a report that contains an allocation of

R1,5 billion intended to provide meals at school for 9 million learners.


Ri a zwi ?ivha uri u shaeha ha zwi?iwa zwa pfushi na n?ala zwi shela mulenzhe hani kha u litsha tshikolo nga vhunzhi ha vhana. ANC yo ?anganedza zwavhu?i R300 mi?ioni nga ?waha wa 2023-24 sa ndambedzo ya u khwinifhadza zwifha?o zwa zwiimiswa pfunzo na mbadelo dzo pfukaho nga ?hafamuhwe 2022.


In the public hearings, the Budget Justice Coalition, BJC, welcomes the 51% and 24% increase in the early childhood development, ECD, Conditional Grants for 2024-25 and 2025-26. The BJC further states that in the subsidy component of this grant, after accounting for the unallocated amount, the increase could enable the number of subsidised children to grow by around 20% over the MTEF. Thus, the R1,6 billion allocation for ECD is a step in the right direction to assisting the 1,66 million children under 6 years as per the 2021 ECD Census access quality and subsidised programmes in their early stages of development.

The BJC is also pleased with the R300 million and R400 million in 2024-25 and 2025-26 respectively, put aside within the subsidy component for a nutrition support pilot for early learning programmes, an indication that the ANC government through the Department of Basic Education, really cares about ensuring good nutrition and other improved outcomes for children in early learning programmes, ELPs. The committee accept that a focused drive on identifying and assisting unregistered ELPs must be undertaken. Inkosi Buthelezi you can agree.

Lastly, to bolster the Department of Basic Education’s capacity, an additional R228 million is allocated to the Department of Basic Education’s budget over the MTEF for the once-off provision of ECD resource packages in 2023-24 and to improve the department’s capacity to support and provide oversight of ECDs. The BJC’s plea is that the ECD resource packages be designed to support implementation of the National Curriculum Framework for children from birth to age four, and that it will be targeted where the need is greatest using data gathered.

With these interventions, hon Wessels, everyone can see that the recent narrative that it was better during the apartheid times is just a misguided and denial to accept that a government led by native Africans, particularly the ANC can invest so much in its future, as Comrade Oliver Reginald Tambo once remarked:

The children of any nation are its future. A country that does not value its youth and children does not deserve its future.

On bridges, in line with President Ramaphosa’s injunctions, the Welisizwe Rural Bridges programme will be able to deliver
81 bridges over the MTEF, taking the total to 95 from the current 14 for this programme. This programme will receive R1 billion for 2023-24, R1,3 billion in 2024-25, and
R1,5 billion in 2025-26, a total allocation of R3,7 billion thereby opening access to many opportunities for rural communities. When the EFF, FFPlus and the DA rejects this report, it simply means that they are happy with the Eastern Cape situation of our people crossing rivers stuffed in drums. Again, I ask, how do voters entrust them with the future if

the parties are voting against monies that a supposed to alleviate them in situations that they find themselves?

Three hundred and seven million allocation for carry through costs is proposed for the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal to repair the damaged provincial roads from the 2022 floods.

On Health, we welcome the R31,1 billion allocated for compensation of employees in the equitable share for carry through costs of the 2022-23 public-service wage increase. R10,2 billion for 2023-24, R10,4 billion in 2024-25, and R10,5 billion in 2025-26.

The R629 million over the MTEF for the building of Limpopo Central Hospital through the Budget Facility for Infrastructure, BFI, funding within the Health Facility Revitalisation grant component of the National Health Insurance, NHI indirect grant is also welcome.

These budget interventions will be some of the reasons for the ANC re-election by the majority of the people of South Africa in 2024. I thank you, House Chair.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Apologies, Chair. Hon Chair, today we deliberate on the proposed adjustment to the appropriation of funds from the national revenue funds for the requirements of the state. Practically speaking, the Division of Revenue Bill split national revenue, rid taxpayers’ money between the three spheres of government, meaning, tax revenue is distributed municipally, provincially and nationally to deliver services to our citizens. It therefore goes without saying that the more tax revenue reaches citizens, the better basic services they can get.

The more we help impoverished and vulnerable South Africans, because most of all they are the ones who rely on the most fundamental of basic services. Chair, this is exactly why endless state bailouts of state-owned entities should be of great concern to every single hon member of this House.
Incessant bailout of SOEs occur at the expense of vulnerable South Africans. It’s quite simple, the more we spend on bailing out state-owned vanity projects, the less revenue could be used to deliver basic services.

In the last 10 years, a staggering R331 billion was spent on SOEs bailout. Even more shocking, 55% of this was spent on the

disastrously run Eskom. So just think hon members, if that money was spent on schools, on houses, on hospitals, how much better would have been for our citizens? How many lives could have been improved? Even the Finance Minister has acknowledged that SOEs persists as a burden on the national fiscus, and its daily operations have become dependent on government bailouts.

The question then needs to be asked, if this is the reality, why does the governing ANC persists on squandering valuable taxpayers’ money on SOEs? Especially considering that instead of helping, each bailout has contributed to the decline in financial and operational performance of major SOEs.
Inefficient corporate governance, outdated business models, crippling cost structures, have taken route in each of these SOEs. These bailouts are like giving drugs to a drug addict and hoping that he becomes better. State bailout just enables a further lack of motivation to improve SOE management. They do nothing to improve the performance of SOEs.

Chair, in 2024 voters must ask themselves, are they prepared to accept the ANC’s addiction to SOE bailouts or do they want to break this cycle of tax abuse. Hon Chair, our people deserve better. The government should not be allowed to

continue to bailout SOEs and further feed this addiction. But this change of this behaviour would require the government to take a stand. Make tough decisions and prioritise the needs of citizens. Chair, it’s time for SOEs to go cold turkey from the addiction of SOEs bailouts and invest our taxpayers’ money where it really matters - in basic services. It needs a government that prioritises its obligation to serve the people of South Africa, not to cater to its addiction to power and corruption. A government that cares enough about the people to rather invest in basic services than invest in SOEs.

The time for change is coming and the DA is dedicated to leading that change. A vote for the DA signifies a vote for fair distribution of tax payers’ funds that will provide better quality services and benefit all citizens, especially the poor. But Chair, you don’t have to believe me, just look at the list of municipalities with clean audit and that will tell you what government the Auditor-General deem to spend money responsibly. It is of course no surprise that last year
22 of the 41 audit, came from just one province - the DA-run Western Cape. In 2024, a vote for the DA is a vote that ends bailouts. A vote for the DA is a vote for responsible use of taxpayers’ money. It is a vote for service. A vote for

dignity. Because the DA-led government, will not tolerate further addiction of state-owned bailouts. Thank you, Chair.


Mr X S QAYISO: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo wa dipuisano, ke dumedise Motlatsa Mopresidente le maloko a Komiti ya Tjhelete. Ke balta ho totobatsa taba ena ya hore ANC e tsehetsa Bili ena.


On building a nonracial, nonsexist, united and prosperous society, I quote the words of the first democratic President, President Nelson Mandela:

To deny any person their human rights is to challenge their very humanity. To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanise them. But, such has been the terrible fate of all black persons in our country under the system of apartheid.

I don’t know why hon Wessels ...


... o lla ha kanakana?


Our country is still divided along racial class, inequality and unequal opportunities. This is a result of systemic differences entrenched by colonialism of a special type. The ANC has the responsibility to break down the barriers of division to create a country where there will be neither whites nor blacks, but just South Africans, free and united in diversity.


Empa hon a le ba bang ka hare ho rona mona ba tshwanang le DA, hammoho le baetsana ba yona ba ratang hore batho ba rona ba dule ba le ka hare ho leraba la tlala le bofumanehi. Ba rata hore batho ba rona ba dule ba le ka tlasa tshotleho ena eo ba leng ka hare ho yona, ebile ba tshehetswa ke bana ba ratang ho bapalla kalaneng, hore mponeng. Ba ipitsa hore ke baetapele ba setjhaba.

Mau Tse Tung, o a re jwetsa hore ...


... who are the people.


O kekebe wa re batho ba ntseng ba eme hodima kalana mona, ba ipoledisa hore ba eteletse pele batho – setjhaba sa rona – ebe ba hana hore ba amohele hore batho ba rona ba fuwe tjhelete hore ditshebeletso di be teng.

Ba hana hore batho ba rona ba ahelwe dikolo, bafumantshwe ditshebeletso ka hohle, hobane ba tseba hore bona ba se ba kgotse. Ke buwa ka bona ba pelaka bana, ba a e tseba taba eno yah ore ba se ba kgotse! Ke ka hoo Monghadi Wessels a sa buing a ngongorehile, a bua ka taba ya hore re bua hamper ka ntataemoholo Simon Van der Stel kapa ena eo a buileng ka ena! Jwale, re keke ra e makalla taba e jwalo!


The 2023 Budget increases allocations for all three spheres of government to assist with urgent spending pressures. Over the medium term, direct provincial allocations will increase by R92,7 billion to R2,17 trillion. This increase consists of R76,9 billion added to the provincial equitable share and R15,8 billion added to direct conditional grants

Provincial government receive two forms of allocations from nationally raised revenue – that is the equitable share and conditional grants. Provinces are responsible for providing social services, including public basic education for
13,4 million learners and healthcare for 50,8 million South Africans who cannot afford private medical care. Most recipients’ access these services free of charge. These are interventions on behalf of the poor that are not always available in many parts of the African continent and the world


Re tshwanetse hore re e amohle taba eo hobane ke hona fela Afrika Borwa moo batho ba rona ba kgonang ho fumantshwa ditshebeletso tsa mahala ka bongata bo bokana.


Over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period,

R31,1 billion is added for employee compensation in the provincial equitable share for the carry-through costs of the 2022-23 public-service wage increase. Of this amount,
R10,2 billion is added in 2023-24, R10,4 billion in 2024-25 and R10,5 billion in 2025-26. With the full appreciation that education remains at the centre of our development, an

additional R20 billion goes to the education sector over the medium term.

In the health sector, R23,5 billion is added over the medium term. This funding will be used for antiretroviral therapy and to address backlogs in tuberculosis and other healthcare services, mitigate wage pressures, and fund laboratory services, medicine and other goods and medical supplies. In 2023-24, R7,5 billion is allocated, followed by R7,8 billion in 2024-25 and R8,1 billion in 2025-26.

The poor and working class are direct beneficiaries of this allocations, opposition parties are opposing this Bill because they simply do not wish for the poor to have access to quality health care services. This is a basic human right that all South Africans should enjoy, regardless of your social standing in society. The ANC, through these allocations, is prioritising this to the people of South Africa.

The President, has in the state of the nation address, stressed the pivotal role that infrastructure plays in creating an inclusive economy as part of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, which places infrastructure

investment at the centre of the recovery of our country. In giving practical expression to this the Bill proposes a total amount of R10,8 billion to the Provincial Road Maintenance Grant.


Tjhelete ena e kana e tla thusa hore ho kgonwe ho lokisa ditsela tse senyehileng ka hare hon aha ya rona. Ditsela tseo ke buang ka tsona, ho etsa mohlala, ke tsela tse kenyeleditseng...


... R708 Road from Marquardt to Clocolan; the R30 Road from Allen ridge to Bothaville; and the R711 and R74 Roads from Fouriesburg to Clarens and Olivier Hoeks.


Molemo wa hore ditsela tsena di fuwe tjhelete hore di lokiswe ke hobane bas a tsebeng hore basebetsi ba bangata ba sebedisa tsela ena haholoholo pakeng tsa meedi ya rona le Lesotho le Freistata, hore ba kgone ho ka jara thepa ya bona le hore ba kgone ho ka theohela, le ho fihla ka nako e nepahetseng mosebetsing hore ba kgone ho ka sebeletsa le ho fepa malapa a

bona. Ba sa tsebeng ke o jwetse, ke sebaka seo e leng hore hape ke sitsi moo nama e kgubedu e hlahiswang, dibakeng tseo.

Ntho e re tshwenyang jwaloka komiti ke ho se sbedise tjhelete ka tsela e nepahetseng, mme tjhelete ena e qetelle e kgutliseditswe morao. Ke yona taba e re ngongorehisang haholo jwaloka komiti, ebile re le Palamente, hore re batla ho etsa boipiletso bah ore matloleng a rona, le lefapha la tjheletse, le etse ka bohohle hore le bone hore tjhelete eo le e abetseng mafapha a mmuso e a sebediswa bakeng sa melemo ya ho ntlafatsa maphelo a batho ba rona ka kakaretso.

Although our economy is faced with structural challenges characterised by high levels of concentration and structural unemployment, the fiscus, as is evident, is being used to redistribute wealth and ensure greater participation of the vast majority in the economy. The interventions are also anchored in creating a prosperous and united South Africa.
This, we believe, is evident in the investments made in education and broadly through infrastructure investment in our provinces, to create an inclusive economy where all South Africans have the necessary opportunities to participate in the life of our economy.

There are those, like the EFF, who want all to derail progress. The ANC is at work and delivering to the people of
... [Interjections.] ... for who they are. We have a responsibility of defending the gains of our democracy. We are the democracy that has the rule of law as its cornerstone.

As the ANC, we have a proud history of being the true liberators of people. So, those who stand against the people remain our enemies, together with their grouping who are in opposition to their people. [Time expired.] So, the ANC supports this Bill. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chair and hon members, good evening. This Bill proposes that we should spend
R6,4 trillion over the next three years to meet the needs of all South Africans. This amount will be shared by the three spheres of government as proposed in the Bill. I want to agree with hon Qayiso that judging by the increase in the provincial and local government equitable share and grants, this Bill cannot be defined as an austere budget. An austerity budget will reduce public expenditure on a massive scale. Instead of cutting the provincial equitable share allocations as an austerity budget would do, the provincial equitable share

increased by R76,9 billion between 2022 and 2023 Budget. Instead of cutting the direct grant allocations to provinces as an austerity budget would do, the direct provincial conditional grants grew by R15,8 billion between 2022 and 2023. Local government allocations increased by R14,2 billion.

The growth in allocation to provincial and local government reflects the importance we place on frontlines services such as health, education and municipal services. This Division of Revenue Bill is highly redistributive. It redistributes revenue collected from the wealthier parts of our country and allocate more to both the rural and urban poor as hon Buthelezi, the chairperson of the appropriations committee, said.

Hon Wessels, as a South African you have a right in showing whatever shortcomings the contemporary South Africa is facing. But it is incorrect to deny that the poor rural and urban areas were historically constituted by the colonial apartheid. We cannot be colonial denialists. These poor urban and rural areas spaces in which poor people mainly the black working class live, did not fall from the sky. We created these areas with the support of the colonial state and this democratic

state through this Parliament, seeks to contribute towards changing this legacy.

Chair, the importance of the local government cannot be overemphasised. The challenges that our municipalities face are well-known. Our municipalities face ever faster growing pressures from the rising cost of bulk services especially electricity and the growing number of households requiring services. The next three years the allocations to local governments continue to grow faster than those to provinces or national governments. This is what also makes this Bill equitable.

House Chair and hon members, Eskom is owed R57 billion by municipalities and it is becoming clear that some of these municipalities won’t be able to pay this debt owed to Eskom. As the Deputy President said this afternoon, we are currently finalising the conditions under which these municipal debts can be restructured or waved. In order to contribute towards the energy crisis solution, the integrated national electrification programme grants will from 2023-24 begin to fund the installation of alternative energy technologies such

as the rooftops solar panels and other energy serving devices in low income or poor households.

In as much as our national contribution to the emission of carbon dioxide to the world, it is less than 1%. We are very vulnerable to the effects of climate change. We have recently experienced natural disasters in many parts of our country and as the National Treasury we provide technical assistance to support the capabilities of municipalities to combat climate change. We have already done so to a number of metros such as Johannesburg, Buffalo City and Ekurhuleni. Seven of the eight metros have received project preparation support for capital projects that will enhance the climate change response.

I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Appropriations for their thorough yet speedy consideration of this Bill. This oversight is a vital tool in ensuring that the government is held accountable for how we allocate and use public funds. The hon Shaik Emam correctly reminds us that it is not just about the allocation of money, but what value do we get for this money. As public representatives in this House, provincial legislatures and municipal council, we are responsible for adopting and implementing this on our respective budgets. Once

this Bill is enacted we all have an important role to play in monitoring and overseeing its successful implementation so that we get the value for money. We therefore ask this august House to approve the redistribution of funds collected largely from the wealthier parts of our country and allocate it to where there is need for government services across rural and urban areas. I thank you, hon members.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party, Freedom Front Plus and United Democratic Movement dissenting).


(Consideration of Report of Standing Committee on Appropriations)

There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the report be adopted by this House.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon Paulsen, do you want to change the position of your party?

Mr M N PAULSEN: No, I don’t.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising?

Mr M N PAULSEN: House Chairperson, on a point of order. There is an individual in the House and we don’t know who he is. I want to know why we need an unelected person to sit in the presence ... He’s not a staff member here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There are security arrangements in place for the person of the Deputy President, and there are appropriate arrangements. Hon member! Hon member, I’m not having a dialogue with you. I’m not having a dialogue. I’m informing you that it’s part of the Deputy President’s security detail. That is it. So, with those

objections ... So, you are not changing your party’s position, hon member. Thank you very much.

Mr M N PAULSEN: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat now. Thank you. Take your seat. Thank you. Okay.

An HON MEMBER: ... [Inaudible.] ... since it’s none of his business.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let’s forget about this little bit of excitement at the end. There were objections and with those objections the report is agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.


(First Reading debate)

Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chairperson ...


... besengibingelele ngaphambili. Mhlawumbe ngaphambi kokuba ngiqhubeke ngibonge kuShenge weIFP, nelungu elihloniphekile uShaik Emam weNFP ukuthi baxhase uMthetho lo obekade siwudlulisa. Siyabonga.


The ANC supports the 2022-23 Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Let me perhaps just say to hon Wessels that there is no doubt and there is no denial that our problems as black South Africans started with the arrival of the Drommedaris, De Reiger and De Goede Hoop. That’s when our problems started.

This month we are celebrating human rights and commemorating the lives of our martyrs who were mowed down by the apartheid police in Sharpeville on that fateful day, 21 March 1960. Let us remember all those who laid down their lives so that you and I can gather here today, irrespective of our race, gender or belief in a democratic Parliament.

The preamble of the Constitution reads, “We adopt this Constitution to heal the divisions of the past and establish a

society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights”.

The ANC supports this Bill because it attempts to eradicate apartheid-created divisions, as contained in many legislations like the Group Areas Act, Land Acts of 1913 and 1936, Job Reservation Act, Bantu Education Act. The list is endless.


Ukukhumbuza labo abanenkumbulo emfushane.


To honour the fallen heroes and properly celebrate Human Rights Day, it is important that we carry the vision of our mothers and fathers forward by ensuring that we heal the divisions of the past. Our people are still crying that they still do not enjoy their economic rights. The economic rights of our people must include the right to our land and the right to our gold, diamonds, platinum, uranium, fauna and flora.

Unfortunately, in our country, blacks still represent poverty and whiteness is synonymous to opulence. It is no accident that our country is the most unequal in the world. The Freedom

Charter is unequivocal in proclaiming that the people shall share in the country’s wealth.

Human rights are also about economic rights. It was O R Tambo who showed the indivisibility of the two when he said:

Racial discrimination, South Africa’s economic power, its oppression and exploitation of all the black peoples, are part and parcel of the same thing.

The two cannot be divorced. Yesterday, I listened to the DA and FF Plus during the debate on human rights. What was very clear to me was that they still see black people and women as hewers of wood and drawers of water. Not a single one of them considers the economic rights of black people and women as a human right.

So, what does this Bill do? It appropriates R23,302 billion as follows: the SA Airways, SAA, gets R1 billion; the SA Post Office gets R2,4 billion; the Land Bank gets R5 billion; and R14,6 billion is allocated for the 2022-23 Public Service wage increase. More information and rationale for our intervention in this Bill will be showed by my comrades.

We make a general comment about the interventions that we continue to make in state-owned entities, SOEs. We are saying that we are taking a broad view when we recapitalise them. The role that they play in the economy of our country cannot be overemphasised. They have a very broad developmental agenda which cannot be outsourced to the private sector. The fallacy which is turned into a gospel truth should not be accepted.
There are some among us who argue that privatisation is a panacea to all our economic problems. That is not true.

In case we forget, many economic disasters that the world has experienced were started by private-sector greed. Lest we forget, until the global economic crisis of 2008-09, our economy was doing well. The risk spread all over the world and our economy was not spared. In South Africa, Steinhoff and Tongaat Hulett are the latest monumental failures, with dire consequences to our economy and jobs. A total of R200 billion was wiped out of Steinhoff.

The approach of the ANC is therefore supreme. We say, let us deal with each and every case on its merits. There are companies which are best run by government and others by the private sector. That is the approach even in the most

capitalist countries. Public goods are best delivered by the public sector. We all know that the private sector’s objective function is to maximise profits.

We are also putting conditions on these interventions. It cannot be a blank cheque. We must also be careful of moral hazard, where these institutions say whatever they are going to do, they do not have a choice, they will bail us out. We may protect the companies but let those who mismanage them face the consequences.

This Bill also provides for R5 billion to the Lank Bank. A minimum of R3 billion is for blended finance, which means that a portion is a grant and the other is a loan. An amount of
R2 billion is to cure the default position of the bank. The importance of the Land Bank to the economy of our country cannot be overemphasised. This will help the sector which has supported economic growth and employment over the years. We stress that the bank should help emerging farmers more and more, so that more employment opportunities can be created. We call on the Minister of Finance to ensure that the conditions attached are followed to the letter. If not, there should be

consequences. The sector should also be supported through the bank because it is critical for food security.

We are saying that these interventions should assist with industrialisation, localisation, economic inclusion and the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP.


Uma uthi awuxhasi lo Mthetho, uthi wena abalimi abafufusayo abangasizwa. Uthi wena iposi lingasizwa, abantu basemakhaya abazibonele ukuthi baphuma njani. Uthi abahole kuphi imali yempesheni yabo? Uthi iposi asiliyeke life ngoba wena uneposi lesilungu i-Postnet. Lo Mthetho uthi akufakwe izimali zothisha, zonesi nezinye izisebenzi zikahulumeni. Uma uphikisana nawo uthi lokhu kungenziwa, batsheleni abantu baseNingizimu afrika. UKhongolose uyaweseka lo Mthetho.

Mr A N SARUPEN: House Chair, I noticed in this debate that hon Buthelezi, my esteemed committee chair for whom I have the highest respect, started his debate by making reference to yesterday’s debate on human rights. If he wanted to participate in that debate he should’ve spoken to his Chief

Whip because today, we are very specifically debating the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill. So, I think we should keep the focus where it belongs.

We are at the tail end of the current financial year. I’ll get it from you afterwards. We are at the tail end of the financial year, and as we reach the end of this financial year, this Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill tells us what the government’s last priorities of this financial year are.
And what are their priorities?

An HON MEMBER: Bailouts.

Mr A N SARUPEN: Bailouts. That’s right. An amount of

R1 billion is allocated to SA Airways, SAA, R2,4 billion is allocated to recapitalise the Post Office and R5 billion is allocated to the Land Bank. I see my friend hon Papo is not happy with me today. That’s okay.

Priority number one ... The key priority for this government is bailouts. This is the strategic choice that they are making with the fiscal overruns and the money they have left. We have children dying in pit latrines. We are told there’s no money

to build proper ablution facilities but there’s a billion rand for SAA. We have the highest youth unemployment rate in the world for which there is no end in sight, but there’s
R2,4 billion for the Post Office. There is more money for VIP protection than there is for land reform, but there’s money for the Land Bank. Is this all morally correct? Are these really the choices that the government should be making? No.

The second strategic choice in this adjustments budget is an allocation that the hon Buthelezi did not speak about at all, which is an amount of R300 million through the Department of Home Affairs to fund political parties. Now, this funding is allocated proportionally to parties represented in the Assembly. So, a full R172,5 million will go to the ANC. Again, when children are dying in pit latrines, is it really a good idea to give R300 million to political parties at this point? However, we know that the ANC is in a financial crisis and we hope that when you get this money you’ll pay your staff their salaries, you’ll pay their pay as you earn, PAYE, you’ll pay their medical aid. I think your staff will be very grateful if you did that. And, don’t forget to pay your suppliers too.
It’s very important. Once you ram this immoral allocation through Parliament, you can do all that.

The third strategic choice in this budget is R4,5 billion allocated to recover the costs of the 2022 public sector wage bill. The public sector wage bill has ballooned far beyond inflation and projection from the last several years and will now reach R700 billion. This level was initially projected to be reached only in 2025.

The Minister of Finance himself stood here and said that unaffordable public sector wage settlements are a threat to the fiscal health of the country. So, my words are the words of the Minister of Finance. It has been a consistent trend in every budget, year in and year out, that government’s wage agreements exceed the planned compensation budgets. How much more can the government cut in services to fund these unaffordable increases? How many more services need to suffer so that 30 000 millionaire managers in government can get a 10% salary increase? Look, a very bold policy choice now needs to be made and that is to freeze the salaries of the top earners in government to increase funding for the police, health care and other frontline services. If anything, we should be prioritising who get increases and where hiring happens. We need more police officers, we need more nurses, we need more teachers, we need more doctors, and that’s where we

need to pay increases and we need to hire more staff. We can fund it by eliminating the unnecessary elites in government at the top. That is the trade off that needs to be made for government in its current difficult financial position.
Protect the poor, protect services but not elite millionaire managers.

However, the big problem with cadre deployment is where do they all go into these elite 30 000 millionaire manager positions? This means that it becomes politically impossible to only give increases to people who serve a specific function because the entire civil service demands the same increase.
And this political decision, as difficult a decision ... is a consequence of cronyism, where comrades get jobs in government and will not be happy if they don’t get the same increases as everyone. All in all, this adjustment budget shows that the government is committed to bad choices. The DA will not be supporting it. Thank you.

Ms K N F HLONYANA: House Chair, let me start by greeting the commander-in-chief who will be the president of the Republic come 2024. Let me also greet the commissars, fighters and ground forces of our movement.

The EFF rejects the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill. The Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill proposes additional funding to the SAA, the SA Post Office, the Land and Agricultural Development Bank known as the Land Bank, and for the provision of Public Service wage increases. Ordinarily, we would welcome additional funding to state-owned entities, SOEs. However, the current ANC-led government has no political will or appreciation for the strategic role of SOEs.

On the one hand they are allocating R1 billion to SAA to pay debts and on the other hand they have sold it to the friends of the Minister of Public Enterprises, Mr Jamnadas Gordhan, for only R51, meaning that they are selling public assets.

On the one hand they are busy selling the SA Post Office’s assets, particularly Post Office land and buildings, at a fraction of the true value and refuse to use the Post Office to build a viable state-owned bank. There is no turnaround plan that is going to come from government, led by Mr Cyril Ramaphosa. They want to collapse the Post Office completely. The Standing Committee on Appropriations should’ve condemned the retrenchment of 6 000 Post Office workers but because it’s

a copy and paste job, we are told that the committee welcomed this.

The allocation of R5 billion to the Land Bank is a waste because the bank in its current form is failing to contribute progressively towards the transformation of the agrarian economy in South Africa, and food security.

We welcome the R300 million allocated for political party funding through the Department of Home Affairs. We also welcome the additional R4,5 billion allocated to the Public Service wage increase and call on public servants to remain resolute in their demand for better working conditions.

We encourage all trade unions who represent our policemen and women to stand up for the benefit of all men and women in blue. Our police deserve better working conditions. The danger allowance for the police has been R400 for more than 15 years now and you increase it by R300? You’re playful. There is nothing that informs this increase. Our police officers must know that Mr Cyril Ramaphosa’s government does not appreciate you at all.

The EFF condemns the misguided willingness to accept and endorse the National Treasury’s unconstrained conditions attached to additional funding, provided to entrench its austerity neoliberal agenda. Eskom was told, we are giving you money but you must close power stations. The Post Office is told to sell its buildings, which in the majority are in rural areas and are its greatest assets. The Land Bank is given more money because it continues to fund white farmers who are failing to pay back old loans. Denel is told, we will give you money if you sell your assets. The SAA is given money to pay its debts because it’s favourable to the corrupt Takatso deal.

We must reject this and do our job as Parliament as we are empowered by the Money Bills Act, and do what is right for our people. We must always ask ourselves how is this appropriation Bill going to change the lives of our people, because if we do that we will reject the majority of the neoliberal nonsense tabled by the National Treasury here in Parliament.

While I still have my 36 seconds, let us note that as you are allowing people who should not be in this House, do not cry tomorrow when the president of the EFF also brings his personal security services as well. House Chairperson, that

gentleman should not have been in the House and you should not have allowed ... [Inaudible.] ... but because you are busy ... [Inaudible.] ... of the ANC, you have allowed this gentleman, who should not be in the House today. {Inaudible.] ... he should not have been here. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members. Hon members, order! Hon members, there is absolutely nothing
... Hon members, there is nothing wrong with us debating our issues here but rowdiness is totally unacceptable. Drowning out the speaker is not acceptable. Shouting at each other is not acceptable. I always want to remind members that the debates that are conducted here are actually done for the purpose of making our communities aware of what we are doing in this Parliament. However, I do not think it is proper that they should be given the opportunity that we are presenting them with now ... that of rowdiness. Please, let us not allow that, hon members.

An HON NEMBER: Here is a point of order, Chair. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have noted you. Hon Gwarube?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, this issue by the member who was on the podium ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The issue that was raised by the member on the podium is actually an apt one and I think the Chair before you didn’t explain this properly. I rise on Rule 58 with regard to the access of nonmembers on the floor of the Chamber. It is not understandable and it has not been explained to us why it is that there is a nonmember in the House ... in the Chamber, as a member of the security forces who is possibly armed, in the Chamber. So, can we please understand what arrangements have been made and why this rule has been contravened?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. I’ll take advice on that and come back to you. Hon Tseki?

Mr M A TSEKI: Thank you very much, Chair. I have realised that the opposition likes my beard.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Come again, hon member. I wasn’t listening.


Mong M A TSEKI: Modulasetulo, ke ema feela hore ke lokise taba eo re tshwanelang ho e lokisa ka hare ho Ntlo ena ya rona ya ketsamolao. Ho na le ditho tse pedi ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, could you please address me?


Mong M A TSEKI: Ho na le ditho tse pedi tse hlahisitseng letshwao la mokgatlo wa bona marangrang, e leng Mong Shivambu le Mong Thapelo. Ke kopa re ba tlose batho bao ba babedi. Ba beile letshwao la mokgatlo wa bona marangrang.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. I’ve heard you. Hon members, you are kindly requested not to display your party logos on this platform. Please don’t do that.

On the issue that was raised by the hon Gwarube, I am informed that the member is not necessarily in the House. [Interjections.] Hon members, please allow me to deal with this. Can you please allow me to deal with this? I was saying that the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, hon Gwarube, raised an objection concerning a person who is ... supposed to be in the House. Now, I am making a ruling on that. I am responding to that. The person who is being referred to is sitting in another part of the House, which is not the House but the gallery part of it. So, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He is sitting in the gallery part of the House. Hon Boroto?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): House Chair, I think the issue here ... This is not happening for the first time because that area ... Huh-uh, I’m speaking. That area is demarcated. That is why you always see the service people sitting there because it is not part of the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): So, what we can do is to make sure that a partition is made, like that one where we have a rope. I think that is the mistake that we are making. However, that part is not part of the House and we have to continue. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Kwankwa?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, since that side is not partitioned, it means that the only part which constitutes a public gallery here is this one. Otherwise we are going to have problems if we have that arrangement there and we don’t have the same arrangement here. Remember, we can also partition that side and bring in our own bodyguards and say we have extra chairs. How are you going to deal with that? Those gentlemen are not seated appropriately ... No, seriously ...


... musani ukumosha. Niza kwahlula ... [Ngokungavakaliyo.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please listen to each other.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Oh, sorry, I can’t even hear myself because



... siyangxola.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Noted, hon Kwankwa. Hon Radebe?

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, with due respect, Rule 192 is very clear. When you have made a ruling, it cannot be challenged on the floor. Let them take it to an appropriate structure. As we are speaking now, that member is not speaking in the debate and is not in our seats. You have made a ruling. It cannot be challenged from here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Singh?

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, it’s quite clear that where the gentleman is sitting is a grey area. At the moment it’s a grey area, right? With the number of new Members of Parliament that come into this House, we do not know who is who. What clarifies and demarcates members of the House and anybody else is that red rope there. So, perhaps you must end this debate by asking the gentleman to sit behind that red string there and that ends the matter so that we continue. Later on you can get a red string there if required. Otherwise ... [Inaudible.]
... to midnight, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Singh. Hon Mkhaliphi?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, we have indeed had a long day. Ask the gentleman ... Oh good, he is moving. Yes, because if you hadn’t intervened — thanks, Ms Boroto, because you are the one who is reasonable in terms of the whole situation — we were going to bring our defenders of the revolution, DORs. We have DORs in the EFF. So, we were going to bring them into the House if it’s allowed. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. Hon Chief Whip, please, please, please. Hon members, please. The problem is sorted. Shall we continue, please? Yes, Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, we are not being petty or pedantic when we raise these things. These things are incredibly important. We have somebody who is part of and an extension of the executive, and who is possibly armed, sitting on the floor of the House. So, it’s not fair that when we raise issues in the House that we are howled down as though we are pleading with you to do our jobs. You are setting a bad precedent. Only now we are told that the demarcation starts here and ends there. So I’m glad that it’s resolved but, House Chair, please understand that the decisions that you take are precedent setting and we should be careful about what we do in this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. It’s noted. Hon members, shall we continue?

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Point of order, Chair. My apologies but I raised my hand. I would like to suggest that the Whippery sit

and have a discussion about having have a cordoned off place where we have a designated area to address the ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon McGluwa, the matter is resolved and the inputs of the members have been taken into consideration. This matter will be dealt with appropriately at the right platform. Shall we continue? The hon Inkosi Buthelezi?


Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Siyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo weNdlu ehloniphekile, sisaphinda sima lapha futhi ukuzocula iculo elilodwa, Sihlalo, ngenxa nje yokuhluleka kweqembu elibusayo ukuqinisekisa ukuthi zonke izinkampani zikaHulumeni zenza umsebenzi ofanele lona ezasungulelwa wona. Asikwazi ukuqhubeka sizikhohlise, Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngokuthi le mibandela nje engathi shu okuthi izimali zikhishwa ngaphansi kwayo iyofeza ukuba ... iqiniso sonke esilaziyo yileli lokuthi yiphupho nje elingasoze lenzeka.

Lezi zinkampani asoze zasinikeza imiphumela esiyifisayo ngale kwezizumbulu zezimali ezinikezwa zona. Kufanele ngabe

sesifundile manje. Kufanele ngabe sezifakelwa izimali lezo zinkampani lezi ezifeza imisebenzi yazo neziqinisekisayo ukuthi lokhu esamiselwa khona kuyenzeka. Ukubona izinhlelo zokukhulisa umnotho zihuduleka ngemuva kubonisa kahle kamhlophe ukuthi lo Hulumeni lona akayigqizi qakala indaba yokusiza abantu bezwe lakithi. Izwe lethu lisenhlekeleleni lilele ngesisu. Ukuthalalisa iqiniso. Ukuthalalisa nokuqinisekisa uhlelo lezomnotho emakhaya kukhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi abantu bakithi abahluphekayo ngoba khona nje abasoze balibona ilanga. Mhlawumbe umbuzo omkhulu okufanele sizibuze wona, Sihlalo, ukuthi, pho sizokwenzani la? Noma sizocula nje iculo elilodwa ukuze simake irejista yokuthi sikhona. Uma lo Hulumeni ungekaboni ukuthi usenzela phansi, kusekude phambili futhi ngeke silubone ushintsho.

Ngibona ukuthi sesimnikeze amathuba amaningi uHulumeni ehluleka futhi usufunde ukuzigada nokuzikhukhumeza phezu kwabantu abamkhethile, akasalaleli noma kuthiwani. Kwalesi senzo nje esiqeda ukukhuluma ngaso la eNdlini sisho khona ukuthi ...


... this ANC is very arrogant now. It doesn’t want to listen.


Ngicela ukuphetha, Sihlalo, ngaleli elithi, abantu bakithi angibakhumbuze ngezigomagoma ezimbili zaleli lizwe nezingoyise yentando yabantu le esikuyo. Umnumzane u-Tambo washo lamagama,


 ... “a corrupt ANC will be far worse than apartheid.” And the first President of this Republic Dr Nelson Mandela said:

if the ANC does to you what the apartheid government did to you then you must do to the ANC what you did to the apartheid government


Isikhathi salokho, Sihlalo, sesifikile, yiso lesi. Abantu bakithi mabenze lokho abakufundiswa umholi wethu u-Mandela ukuthi uma abantu sebegxaza ngale ndlela mabakhonjwe indlela. Iqembu leNkatha, Sihlalo, liyawuseka lo Mthethosivivinywa kodwa ngaphansi kwemibandela.

Ngiyasho namanje ngiyaphinda ngithi, uma le-ANC ingakafuni ukulalela nezwe alifunde ukuthi injani. Yonke le mali

ekhishwayo uku-bailout lezi zinkampani zikaHulumeni ezihlulekayo ... [Akuzwakali.] ... ezemisebenzi ezingayenzi okungabe zakha inzuzo ezingayenzi.

Sesifundile manje siyazi ukuthi yibo kanye laba abathatha lezi zimali bazifake emakhukhwini. Lama-bailout nje, Sihlalo, awakwazi ukufeza lokhu akhishelwa khona. Sebelungiselela isikhathi esiya kuso, ngoba sesiyanazi, nisikhohlise. Ngakhoke bantu bakithi, kwakhuluma umholi noMongameli wokuqala wathi, uma laba sebenza lokhu abakwenza labaya bangemuva umgwayimahele, nathi asibagudle lapho ngaleyo ndlela.
Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, contrary to what certain members in this House at this podium have said tonight, the denialists are on my right. The denialists that deny the real causes of the failures, poor service delivery is on my right. Those that deny the effects that state capture has had on this country are on my right. Denying the ongoing endemic corruption that’s taking place daily, they are on my right. Denying the ongoing wasteful expenditure that these Appropriation Bills and Budgets allow to happen.

Denying the constant mismanagement that takes place daily at government departments and state-owned entities and all levels of the government. Denying the poor economic growth and the causes thereof and denying the causes of the budget deficit.
Denying the causes of failed, bankrupted, looted state-owned entities, and once again, this Bill appropriates monies towards those failed state-owned entities. The ANC has lost its will to govern. You are holding onto power for the sake of power, not to serve. Your policy directions are confusing. You create policy uncertainty. This Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill is indicative of the last contractions of a government near its end of life. Scapegoating is very easy.
It’s easy trying to find a scapegoat, but it is more difficult taking responsibility. It takes courage and political will to admit your failures, to identify the causes of those failures and to also have the conviction to do what is necessary to correct what went wrong. To take consequences against those who have transgressed although they are in your political party and you are dependent on them for political positions.
That takes will and courage.

This ANC government has lost that. You only search for scapegoats. You are only interested in populism and this

howling of Orania and all kinds of things just prove it. You don’t even know what you are talking about but you blame the past and you don’t take responsibility for what is happening in this country. People are suffering and this Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill is not addressing not the real crises in the country. It shows the poor and misguided priorities of this government

To say I, you, that’s the problem. You are not taking responsibility as the governing party of 2023. That is what the people out there are expecting, but luckily the people out there are not falling for the scapegoating and populism anymore. They feel the suffering. They see who lives in luxury. They see where the money is being spent and they see that this ANC government has lost its will to serve them with leadership. Let’s get rid of them in 2024.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP has read and taken note of the report. The Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, noted the allocation of R4,5 billion to national departments to assist with the carry-through costs associated with the 2022-
23 public service wage increase and cautioned that unaffordable wage bill settlements remained a key risk to the

fiscus. Now the ACDP agrees and questions how the recent wage bill settlement will be funded as it came in higher than the percentage budgeted for.

The ACDP is – like other speakers - concerned about the continual and further bailouts in this Bill, the R8,4 billion in bailouts for SAA, the Post Office and Land Bank create a moral hazard and this can result in a lack of incentive to take steps and guard against risk where the SOE is protected from the consequences of its actions and knows that it will receive more and more bailouts. The FFC states that continued bailouts for underperforming SOEs create perverse incentives and are fiscally unsound. Preconditions and conditions required for bailouts, including financial and operational reporting have to be implemented.

As far as the SAA’s R1 billion bailout is concerned, it must be remembered that this is in addition to the R16,4 billion already granted to SAA to complete its nearly two-year-long business rescue process, and this might not be the last bailout for the SAA because the National Treasury on its budget document states that, “additional funding will be considered to allow the strategic equity deal to be

finalised”, and an amount of R2,4 billion is bandied around as there is an R2,4 billion outstanding required allocation from the government for this private equity deal to be finalised.

Lastly, the R3,8 billion in unspent funds on the Social Relief of Distress grant within the Department of Social Development is a matter of concern. One trusts that this is due to an improved means testing system, and not that fewer needy people have been able to access the grant. The decrease in the number of people accessing this grant does not, however, seem logical, given the high levels of unemployment and worsening socioeconomic conditions. There is a need for an urgent review of the qualification criteria and the registration processes, as suggested in the report, in order to ensure that all qualifying persons are not excluded. I thank you.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Isoloko ingalayiti le nto xa kuza kuthetha mna. Sihlalo siyabulela kakhulu ngeli thuba. Ingxaki apha iqala kule migaqo-nkqubo nale miqathango siyibekayo kula maqumrhu karhulumente kuba ivele ibe wokowoko ngathi yindlu kanomyayi, kufufumaniseke ukuba senza into enye. Ukuba le migaqo-nkqubo nale miqathango ibingqingqwa besingasoze simana

ukuza apha size kuteketa sinika abantu ebesibanikile imali kwakhona ngaphandle kwemiphumela.

Nala masela avele aphume kuba nanku noDe Ruyter wenu esithe simqeshele ukuba makalawule u-Eskom, wafika yena wadlala upolisa bamb’isela. Le simqeshele yona akayenzanga, uleqa abantu ababileyo, uleqa nazo nezithunzi eleqa nesakhe isithunzi. Emva koko ndiyazibuza ukuba le posofisi yenu yile ibinengxaki ye ...


... cash send backlog amounting to R350 000 and payments backlog of R489 000 not so long ago ...


... le ngoku siphinda siyinika imali. Eyona nto indibhidayo



... this government of yours is becoming elitist.


Niqale naza kusikhumshela apha ...


... about solar panels and inverters ...


... ezingenakho ukuba sezilalini.


I asked myself about the partnership between the Department of Transport and PostNet where the latest documents are sent, ...


... ingaba kula mntu useMnqaba ukhona uPostNet phaya? Ingaba abantu bayabhiyoza bathi ...


... the system is working efficiently? We destroyed the post office that was servicing ...


... abantu bakuthi, sayibulala kwaphela. Sihlalo, le nto ifana nale nto - ndiza kuphuma emxholweni ndingusopolitiki andizi kuthetha ngalo mxholo wenu. Apha abantu basuka bafunwa


... the tax clearance by SA Revenue Service, Sars.


Umntu akhwele ukusuka eQoboqobo naseDikeni esiya eMonti. Xa efika kuthiwe kuye ...


... no, you must send a text message, you can’t just come here without an appointment. That person spends another R150 going back, R300 down the drain, no network, load shedding and they cannot even access the phones. The other thing that we want to ask is, what these private equity partners with SAA are for.
What are they going to do?


Siza kumana sikhupha imali sinika la masela? Ingaba bazele ntoni bona apha, bazele ukuza kufunxa kurhulumente?


Firstly, we bailed out SAA to the tune on nearly of

R100 billion and we sold it for R6 billion. Does it make sense? It is completely illogical. How was the valuation done?


Nazo iingxaki ezikhoyo. Inkonzo yophapho i-Emirates yaqala ngowe-1985 ...


... with two aeroplanes that they borrowed from Pakistan. Look at where they are. We started in 1934 and we’ve destroyed SAA. All that we are doing is to bailout these entities but the problem ...


... esingayenziyo kukungakwazi ukulungisa ...


and turn these institutions around and make sure that ...


... ooDe Ruyter aba sele engathi ligqwirha elintorayo elihamba lithetha ngaphandle, beze apha ukuze baphendule kule Palamente bayeke ukuba ngamagwala bathethe koomabonakude, bengazange baphendule apha. La masela.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, you know it goes back to what I said earlier on ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order hon members.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: The amount of money that we make available for many of these state-owned entities, the question is, what do we get back in return. I was speaking to the Minister of Finance recently and he said, actually there is no revenue that comes from any of these state owned entities, and that should not be the case. If a business can be successful in private hands, then why can it not be successful in public hands? I think what we need to do is go back to the drawing board. Yes, public private partnerships do work but I think what is very important if we allow these state-owned entities to run independently, we won’t have this problem.

Now, before I go in, you know, I asked repeatedly on behalf of the NFP on the issue of SA Airways and the question is - and I know Chief Whip will be looking at me because she shook her head the last time as well, that we still Deputy President don’t have an answer why we took our entire fleet of

aeroplanes that were freehold and sold it to somebody who then leased it back to SA Airways, SAA. Up to this very day, we don’t have an answer as to what happened to our fleet. Maybe we need to go back and find out what exactly has happened to our aeroplanes.

Actually, SAA was recognised as one of the best airlines in the world, and there’s no doubt about that. But coming back to another very important point that I want to make. When we debate here, we do a lot of attacking and a lot of insulting, what we are not finding is solutions. In order for this country to exist and to survive and be successful, we need to come together. I have heard a few things earlier on today by hon Sarupen and I think he’s correct. He, according to him, has identified a lot of weaknesses.

I have said before and I want to say again hon Steenhuisen, why not in the interest of the 60 some odd million people in this country that you do not sit down with the ANC, find common ground, address the challenges we find in this country so that - and I agree with you that, some of your municipalities and things are very well run. We can’t run away from that fact. But why not come together, sit down with the

ANC in the interest of the people of this country and take it forward? That is what we want. If you got the solutions, let’s discuss the solutions and find common ground and take South Africa, forward.

I believe and we believe as the NFP South Africa will be a much better place, if the two of you can get together, put your differences aside and work together for the common good of this country. That is my plea to you if we want to make South Africa a place for all of us to live in and successfully. Thank you very much.

Ms M D MABILETSA: Deputy president, Chief Whip, Deputy Chief Whip ... [Inaudible] ... hon members, ke a leboga [thank you]. I just want to start hon Sarupen. I’m just reminding you that economic rights are human rights. That is why we are here for then we’ll talk about them every day. That is why it is Mary Robinson, former United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, who once said:

We must understand the role of human rights as empowering of individuals and communities. By protecting these rights, we can help prevent the many conflicts based on poverty,

discrimination and exclusion that continue to plague humanity and destroy decades or development efforts. The vicious cycle of human rights violation that led to conflict which in turn led to more violation must be broken. I believe we can break it only by ensuring respect for all human rights.

The democratic dispensation as ushered in by the ANC government in 1994, has since adopted a Constitution which is intentionally acclaimed as the most progressive in the world. It gives clear prominence of human rights through the Bill of Rights and is said on building a society based on democratic values, social justice, and fundamental human rights as enshrined in the preamble of the Constitution. To this effect, the Bill of Rights provides that:

Everyone has the right to have access to— (a) health care services, including reproductive health care; (b) sufficient food and water; and (c) social security.

Hon members in his budget speech, the Minister of Finance indicated that the global recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic has been slow while our economy grew by an estimated 2,5% in 2022, and unemployment decreased by 0,2% from 32,9% to 32,7%

in the fourth quarter of 2022. Poverty, unemployment, and inequalities persist.

The Social Relief of Distress Grant, SRD Grant: It is against this backdrop that the ANC wishes to reduce there is concerns around them administration or the R350 SRD Grant, we note with concern that, with the First Adjustment Bill R1,8 billion was unspent due to the lower than anticipated take up of the SRD grants caused by the stringent grant eligibility criteria that had been applied. The Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill reduces the effort the SRD Grant by a further R3,7 billion as a result of improved targeting.

The ANC implores on National Treasury to review their criteria to ensure that these funds are dispensed to those who need them most, the many impoverished and underprivileged in our society. While our government is gradually addressing challenge of unemployment, the SRD Grant needs to intervene to ensure that one is able to put bread on the table. In the same vein, we went to we want to implore on our government to revisit the allocation among of R350, and consider increasing this amount to meet the rising cost of living brought about by high inflation amongst other things.

As the ANC we implore National Treasury and government to seriously consider a Basic Income Grant. These views are not unrealistic or populist. We are ... [Inaudible] ... aware of the severe constraints on the budget, reduced fiscal space and the huge costs that the state will have to bear. But, given the consideration in this country at present and the limited growth rates and job creation, not to not to provide a Basic Income Grant could lead to social consequences that will cost them state and society far more.

The Basic Income Grant can be introduced in an incremental measure, while it takes into account the limited fiscal space. The unnecessary trade-offs will have to be made. The tax proposal by the various stakeholders in the hearing of the funding of the Basic Income Grant also needs to be considered.

The SA Post Office: Hon Chairperson, as iterated in this House before, the ANC believes that state-owned enterprises have a developmental role to play and must equally help the state in generating the much needed jobs in effort to poverty alleviation and reduce unemployment. We remain saddened by the state of the SA Post Office, particularly the frequent closure of branches and then looming retrenchment of 4 000 employees.



While we acknowledge that the SA Post Office is in a dire state, with liabilities outweighing its assets by R4 billion and a debt of R8 billion, the cutback is rather drastic and does not add value to the country’s development goals.
However, we welcome the R2,4 billion towards recapitalisation of Sa Post Office. We implore on the National Treasury to enforce strict tracking and tracing mechanism to ensure that the entity meets the conditions of its grant. Thank you

Ms W R ALEXANDER: Hon House Chairperson, today, we are here to discuss proposed changes to how we allocate money from the SA Reserve Bank for the state needs. Before we delve into that, I want to reflect on the past budget promises. In the limited economy, state-owned enterprises, SOEs constantly have a need for more and more money and as a result the future of the SOEs has been discussed at nauseam. These talk shops have focused on which SOE should be retained or consolidated in order to reduce the constant demand on the South African resources and take away the much needed service delivery for the citizens.

It could be argued that the SOEs play a critical role in our economy but my question is, at what cost? For instance, Eskom

debt continues to rise. This debt service costs us at an average of R330 billion a year. There is more than the ANC-led government’s pains on basic education, policing or healthcare and yet the government does not seem to regard this now daily power outages as a single biggest risk to the economy in South Africa. In fact, it is sabotage itself.

The Minister has talked about tough love actions in Eskom but we are yet to see this. The Minister also talked about supporting Economic Reconstruction and Recovery to the bounce back systems for our small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs. For this endeavour was initially for us supporting business industries due to COVID-19 they are now plagued with daily load shedding which cost this country a billion Rand a day. When it comes to SMMEs, they no longer have the reserves to tighten their belts anymore.

We cannot properly support SMMEs if this government does not provide affordable reliable power to the businesses. The bottom line is that the country’s GDP could grow from the 0,3% as predicted for this year to a 2,3% if the ANC-led government just buckle gun and fix the energy crisis. It is clear that the government wants to take bold steps to improve state

capacity and to reduce the scope of procurement corruption. Unfortunately, corruption that plagues Eskom does not paint a positive picture for the future and more worrying the new Minister of Electricity naively claims that the problem with Eskom’s grid is merely technical and has nothing to do with corruption.

The national budget has further stressed to strengthen the judiciary system which the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is to receive an additional
R1,1 billion and the Office of the Chief Justice to receive an additional of R39 million. The reality is that the Johannesburg High Court has now returned to online hearings due to load shedding, the virtual reality. This is because the departments have failed to provide the courts with the reliable energy supply to provide generators.

As we are here to discuss the Appropriation Adjustments, perhaps we should be considering re-appropriating the Minister’s home generators to the high courts. South Africa has become all too familiar with broken promises. We need willing government to fix this country and not this constant

reshuffling of the dead chairs of the Titanic of the ever growing of the Presidential Cabinets. Thank you.

Mr Z MLENZANA: You know Deputy President, when you have got a cohort of people who are hell bent to fabricate the whole truth, they even begin to confuse themselves. You know this one who was here ...


 ... ndiyaqala nokumbona mna. Bendingamazi nokuba uyazixoxa izinto zemali ...


 ... hence now she begins to contradict hon Sarupen. Hon Sarupen was saying that, it is good if we do not leave anyone behind.


Nimvile nani?


He has been there, let alone that he was instructed in the caucus to tow the party line. That is another matter. Let me

start by saying that the ANC supports this Bill. We commemorate the Human Rights Month and remember the sacrifices that accompanied the struggle for the attainment of freedom and democracy in South Africa. The freedom we enjoy now was certainly not free and was not given on a silver platter but fought for.

Chief of the Opposition you are not listening but you know nothing about freedom. That is why you are not listening.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mlenzana, the point of order comes from me. Please address me.

Mr Z MLENZANA: I imagine those who are fumbling and abusing these human rights that we fought for when one person would stand up and tell South Africans that he is in charge and is actually holding the whole of South Africa with its scrotum. Imagine, only to find out that he does not ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members.

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: We are allowed to heckle but not to drown the speaker please.
Protect the speaker from the houtkop from Paulsen.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, allow the speaker to continue with the debate. Thank you. Hon Paulsen, please as you do so, do not drown the speaker.

Mr Z MLENZANA: South Africans must hear this one. When there is somebody who is saying he is holding the whole of the South African electorate with their scrotum because he is in charge. This is regardless of the knock-on effect to the growth domestic product. There is just one thing which I want to pass through linked to these human rights.


Uyayazi ukuba i-DA ayifuni nokuyicinga into yokuba siyilwele le nto?


Look at this R300 million that we are appropriating to the Department of Home Affairs allocation so that our own people can begin to exercise their right of voting. Now they begin to

spin the reasoning behind that. Why? Because they know that they will scream here. At least today, they have smuggled one person of our colour.

But our people in Khayelitsha are sober this time. Our people in Philippi are sober. Come 2024, you are not going to see a situation where you will continue ...


... nibane nisithi apha ...


 ... you have got clean audit, though it is only clean audit on paper there. I do not want to be bothered by you today. On the SA Airways, I just want to mention one thing only. When you are fighting the SOEs ...


... ndingabavumela ke aba ...


 ... because they have got an historical enmity on SOEs. Let us go back, dig and start with the Genesis, as to why there

were SOEs. They were started by their forefathers but now that it is the ANC that is in charge, they do not want us to continue with SOEs. Now, they are talking about closing the SOEs for the benefit of what we do not know. The only thing of what we have to appeal when we are appealing to the Treasury and the Minister of Finance is that, yes, let us not wait appropriating these companies, particularly these SOEs and do it willy nilly, Chief Whip. Let us be able to have critical conditions which are put in place. For instance, there is this saying that says better our people go sluggish in their homes than working. We are saying that, look at, for instance, the negotiations that have to be engaged and what we want is that, have a win-win situation with the strategic equity partnership but as we do that make sure that the value and the price paid by the strategic equity partner is market related at also based on the scientific evaluation which the Minister of Finance and Treasury should agree with. This is what we are saying. We are also saying that there should be constant reporting both here in Parliament brought, of course not by government but specifically by the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises.


Kufuneka niyeke le nto yokuzondana nesiqu esinye ...


 ... as if government is one Minister. Lastly, we are saying government should hold at least 51% of the equity.


Kodwa asoze ndixole ndingadlulanga kokaWessels ohloniphekile.


I think you need to be taught what cadre deployment is ...


... le ubane usenza ingxolo ngayo, ungayazi nokuyazi.


Unfortunately for you, you are a far right extremist whose passion is antiworking class, antipoor and anti-oppressed. That is you. In fact, I do not know your age. If I knew it, I would say you are a verkrampte. That is typical of you.
Anything that is progressive, you are anti to it. Why? Because you hate democracy with passion.


Ngoku sijongise imibombo ePasikeni. Ukuba eli qonga beliyiPulpithi bendiza kuthi, yithini nisiya kuxoka ebantwini, nibe nisazi ukuba ...


 ... there will always be Fridays where people would falsify, misrepresent and where people would say all these things which are awkward about people who are doing good things. But there comes a Sunday. Our Sunday, Chief Whip, the 2024 General Elections. For instance, some were saying they are going to have a shutdown only to find out that there was a shot down instead of a shutdown. Why? Because they went around intimidating South Africans. Let me tell you this ...


 ... abantu baseMzantsi Afrika banengqondo, banamehlo okubona neendlebe zokuva ...


 ... no more shall you play with emotions of the people of South African. No more shall you blackmail the people of South

Africa. [Interjections.] One day, I must come here and engage you on the red that you are wearing. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can I make you aware of this thing. Just imagine our communities, sitting at home and watching at us. What are they saying with the kind of behaviour you are seeing here? You have been requested on numerous times to not drown the speaker. Please do not drown the speaker. It is allowed for you to heckle but please do not drown the speaker. Hon Makhawula, please!


Mnu Z MLENZANA: Xa ndiza kuhlala phantsi, Sihlalo weNdlu ...


 ... this behaviour that we see here is exactly the behaviour that was actually portrayed in Britain. They used to sing:


Zayinyathela ngeenyawo iMarxism.


Why? Because they were counterrevolutionaries and they wanted to smuggle the interests of the West. As we speak now, we have got those who are only red on attire ... [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, House Chair, and good evening once more, hon members. Let me start by cautioning what members should call for. I heard hon member Alexandra from the DA making an illiberal demand, and the demand is that the public must expropriate generators of the public representatives. Hon Alexander, be careful what you are calling for because it may not end only at the expropriation of generators which will not have any significant difference in the bigger scheme of things. So, you need to be very careful what you are calling for.

Let me reiterate what we have consistently said as National Treasury in this House, and also in the committees of the House, and in all public platforms. We have always said that bailing out inefficient and ailing state-owned entities is very bad because it redirects public resources to inefficient and poorly run state companies. The government has spent more than R308 billion towards bailing out failing state-owned companies. The bailouts include the SAA, and as a result of

this bailout, frontlines services, infrastructure, were reduced by R257 billion since 2013.

Now, by allocating R1 billion to the South African Airways towards the finalisation of the business rescue process, we are trying to end the chapter of bailing out SOEs. The
R1 billion is allocated to assist with the SAA’s outstanding historical debts. Unless members are saying that we shouldn’t be paying this debt, which will ... [Inaudible.] and it has huge financial consequences. The government has significantly reduced its contingent liability exposure to SAA and it is expected that the South African Airways will no longer require government guarantees by the end of 2022-23.

It must also be noted that SAA will remain undercapitalised, even subsequent to the disbursement of the required allocation for the condition of the business rescue plan. It is for this reason that strategic equity partner is being introduced to inject funding into the airline and ensure that there is no further requirement for funding from the fiscus. The completion of the business rescue plan will enable the government to introduce a strategic equity partner.

As I have said, the introduction of the equity partner will bring in private capital into the airline and ensure that there is no further requirement for funding from the fiscus. However, there are conditions to this allocation. The conditions that we are placing to the South African airlines are basically three. The first one is that all government guarantees to SAA will be cancelled. Secondly, their identified equity partner should provide proof of funds to buying the equity stage at SAA. Thirdly, the National Treasury should review the agreement between the strategic equity partner, the shareholder – that is the Department of Public Enterprise – to ensure that there are no future obligations on the fiscus. This will ensure that the chapter of bailing out SOEs is basically closed. Of course, it is a process.

On the Land Bank; the Land Bank remains in financial distress and a process to finalise a liability solution with the lenders is ongoing. The allocated R5 billion to the Land Bank is to ensure that the Land Bank finalises its debt solution, but also provides loans to farmers. That is, money must be used to pay lenders that the Land Bank owes, and provide loans or finance through blended financing to farmers. Again, there

are also conditions that are attached to Land Bank ... [Inaudible.].

These conditions include, amongst others, that the Land Bank should provide concrete assurance and evidence that the
R5 billion is ring fenced or protected from any legal action against lenders. Secondly, that the Land Bank should use a minimum of R3 billion for the blended finance - that is equity debt grant - to support farmers. But the R2 billion should be used to pay the lenders. This is important to ensure that the Land Bank continues to contribute to both transformation and food security as a condition for economic growth and development. I state these objectives; economic growth and transformation in the same sentence because some in the opposition benches present transformation as something incompatible with economic growth. Transformation contributes towards economic growth because it will increase the numbers of farmers by supporting black people who were historically and currently disadvantaged.

By increasing the number of farmers we are also increasing agricultural product, including food. Increasing food production will also assist us in dealing with the cost of

living arising from the rise in the food prices. We therefore expect the department to work with the Land Bank to support both black farmers and white farmers to increase food productions. Thank you, House Chair. We ask the House to adopt the Bill as presented. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

Debate concluded.

Question put

Agreed to.

Bill read a first time



(Second Reading)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, the last item on the Order Paper is a Decision of Question on Draft Resolution in the name of the Leader of the Opposition for the establishment for an Ad Hoc Committee on alleged corruption and unabated operations of criminal networks and cartels at Eskom.

Hon members, I wish to remind you that this Draft Resolution was debated in a Virtual Minis-Plenary on Thursday, 16 March but that a decision thereon can only be taken in the full plenary, which is this one. I now put the motion. Are there any objections?

Ms N V MENTE: House Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon Mente.

Ms N V MENTE: Yes, House Chair. We would like to move a motion of the amendments to the Draft Resolution of the Leader of the Opposition.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Mente. Order, hon members. In terms of Rule 121 a

member may propose an amendment to a Draft Resolution provided the amendment does not extend the scope of the Resolution or is ruled out of order for any other reasons for the presiding officer. The Rules also determine that when an amendment is moved a signed copy must be delivered to the Table, which has been done. Proposed amendments to Draft Resolutions must be put for decision for sequence with the last amendment first and the original with or without amendment unless the presiding officer determines otherwise. I now put the amendment to the motion of the hon Leader of the Opposition as moved. Are there any objections?

Ms N V MENTE: House Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member?

Ms N V MENTE: Yes, for the ease of reference of those that are in the House and that may not be favoured with the copy of the motion as moved may I read the insertion to the motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Allowed, hon member.

Ms N V MENTE: Thank you very much, House Chair. I move to insert in paragraph 6(a) after the word Eskom the following words: including inquiring into all coal contracts, all evergreen contracts and all contracts between Eskom and smelting companies. I so move, House Chair, as signed. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. Apparently, the motion is admissible. It is admissible with amendments. I now put the motion with amendments. Are there any objections?


ANC objects.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I put the amendment.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The amendment is not accepted. Yes, hon Gwarube.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, you had put the amendment to the House and you have asked if there are no objections. That point there were no objections. Now you are putting the question to the House with a Draft Resolution with amendment included. And now the ANC has raised the objection. I think it is important for the record and I would like to call for a division please, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member. A division had been called. The bells will be rung for five minutes.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

The House Chairperson (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, the Speaker had determined that, in accordance with the Rules, a manual voting procedure would be used for the division.
Firstly, to establish a quorum. I will request the Table to confirm that we have the requisite number of members’ physical present in the Chamber and on the virtual platform to take this decision. Party whips will then be given an opportunity

to confirm the number of their member’s present and indicate if they vote for or against the question. A member who wishes to abstain or vote against the party vote may do so by informing the Chair. Order? Order, hon Mahambehlala. Having confirm this we will have the requisite quorum. We will now proceed.

The question before the House is that the Draft Resolution in the name of the Leadership of the Opposition for the establishment of Ad Hoc Committee on alleged corruption and unabated operations of criminal networks and cartels at Eskom be agreed to. Those in favour of the motion of the Leader of the Opposition will vote “yes” and those against the motion of the Leader of the Opposition will vote “no”. Voting will now commence. The doors to the Chamber will remain locked and members are not allowed to enter the virtual platform until voting is concluded. Whips could you confirm the number of your members present in the Chamber and on the virtual platform and indicate if they vote for or against the question. Are the party whips ready to record the votes of their members who are present?

AYES – 115: (DA – 63; EFF – 33; IFP – 8; FF Plus – 6; ACDP – 2;

UDM – 1; NFP –1; PAC – 1).

NOES – 201: (ANC – 201).

Question not agreed to.

Motion, as amended, accordingly negatived.

The House adjourned at 20:27.