Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 15 Mar 2023

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 15 MARCH 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: Plenary (Hybrid)

 

 

The House met at 15:00.

The House Chairperson (Mr M L D Ntombela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

NEW MEMBERS

 

(Announcements)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business, I wish to announce that the vacancies which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignations of Ms K D Mahlatsi, Mr F A Mbalula, Ms D P Magadzi have been filled from 10 March 2023 by the nominations of Mr M D Monakedi, Ms A P Phetlhe, and Ms T V Tobias, respectively. The vacancy which occurred, owing to the

resignation of Dr M Tshwaku had been filled by the nomination of Mr Y Tetyana with effect from 10 March 2023. The members have made and subscribed to the oath with the Acting Speaker. I welcome you, hon members.

QUESTIONS - CLUSTER 3: GOVERNANCE

 

Question 176:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Members, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, the guide of the members of the executive seeks to limit expenditure on travel and other costs. The annual cost in respect of each Minister, Deputy Minister, premiers, and members of the executive council will vary depending on the nature and the extent of their respective duties.

The total annual costs incurred in this regard will be within the preview of the relevant department. Thank you, House Chair.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: House Chairperson, whilst clearly, the Deputy Minister doesn’t know how much the ministerial handbook actually costs South African taxpayers every year, allow me to enlighten her. According to the responses received so far to parliamentary questions submitted by the DA, the perks for Ministers and Deputy Ministers contained in the handbook costs at least R1 billion per year. This includes R7,9 million for free water and electricity, R105 million for luxury vehicles, R144 million for salaries, R387 million for staff, R528 million for VIP security, and we are still waiting for a number of questions to be answered.

What’s more, is that these perks all appear to be illegal. There is not a law on the books that allows for a ministerial handbook to even exist. The DA has already reported this matter to the Public Protector, and if we win on this issue, ANC Ministers will owe the people of South Africa billions of rands in ill-gotten benefits.

Since the ANC recently held a whole year dedicated to Charlotte Maxeke, allow me to remind you of her words:

This work is not for yourselves. Kill that spirit of self and do not live above your people but live with them.

Deputy Minister, can you name the law that enables the ministerial handbook to exist? And if there is no such law, are you proud that the ANC uses an illegal handbook to defy the legacy of Charlotte Maxeke? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

House Chairperson, I just like the way you have the ability, hon Schreiber, of making analysis of things. The way you are subjectively analysing doesn’t help the people of this country to understand how government is actually run. You have to know how to compare apples with apples. When you have to come with an equation, it must be an inclusive equation. What you failed to do is to actually manage to articulate the kind of work that the Ministers are doing in order for you to look at the tools of trade that are given to Ministers, and therefore come to a conclusion that they do not qualify for these tools of trade.

Let me tell you something about the ministerial handbook. It is a policy document that was adopted even by the previous government. It was okay when it was the Ministers of apartheid that benefitted ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: ...

the Ministers of DA, because it us, it becomes so difficult for you to understand.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Deputy Minister

...

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: ...comfortable in our positions. Also, what you need to do is to know how to compare the three arms of the state. Sometimes you don’t even look at what is happening in the judiciary, the kind of perks the judiciary has, and compare. That’s why I am saying compare apples with apples. Don’t be selective.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members. Hon Members of Parliament, Mr Schreiber, you posed a question to the Deputy Minister, but your interjections could not allow her to be able to answer as she would have wanted to. Even if you are not happy with the answers that she is providing, there are other processes that you need to follow. Mr Schreiber, you are not listening to me, you are doing what you did to the Deputy Minister. Please, if you are not happy with the answers, you know what processes to follow. But please, let us not disturb the flow of the debate. [Interjections.] The answers that are being provided here are not necessarily provided to us as Members of Parliament, they are also provided to the public at large. So, let’s give them that opportunity to get to know what is taking place in our Parliament. Thank you very much.

Ms M T KIBI: Hon Deputy Minister, what are the working conditions of executive members, and why do they require a certain level of support as described by the ministerial handbook? I thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, hon Kibi, members of the executive have a constitutional mandate and statutory obligations in respect of their fundamental roles and responsibilities. As members of the executive, they are required to, amongst others, ensure that matters within their functional areas are properly managed, being accountable to Parliament, the President, Cabinet and the country at large.

Tools of trade provided to members of the executive enable them to meet with ease the demands in line with the positions they occupy. I thank you, House Chair.

Ms H DENNER: House Chair, I must say I am quite shocked that the Deputy Minister is comparing perks with perks whilst there are people starving in this country. Speaking of lifestyles, the promise of lifestyle audits for public sector employees have been made numerous times, and there are some departments, when we ask questions regarding lifestyle audits, there are some departments that say they have started rolling out lifestyle audits. The perception is that lifestyle audits are not a priority for the department. So, I would like to know from the Deputy Minister: Is lifestyle audits a priority for the department? Is there a time set by when lifestyle audits of all departments must be finalised? Will the results be made available to the public? How will this be handled as a priority by this department in order to ensure that fraud and corruption is curbed in the public service? Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I

think the member is already on the second question of

lifestyle audits. She wants to know if we are prioritising lifestyle audits. Yes, we do. I will expatiate on this when we deal with the second question, being Question 164.

Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson, if I may take the question on behalf of Inkosi. Thank you, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the other key focus area here is the need for the reconfiguration of the executive as the President has been alluding for the past few weeks. Now, the Deputy President has been quite involved in this process. So, what I want to check Deputy Minister is: Whether you produced as a department a report on the review of the reconfiguration of the executive, and have you submitted such report to the President because there’s a lack of clarity as to whether you have actually done that, and if you have, when did you do it? Did you submit it to the President? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you very much, hon Hlwengwa of the IFP, when you talk about the size of the executive, it is something that is not within my competency. You understand very well that it has to do with the President. You also mentioned the micro configuration of government and whether such a report has been

submitted to Cabinet. Yes, it has been submitted to Cabinet. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Question 149:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much, House Chair and hon members. Having declared the national state of disaster and after consultation with relevant Cabinet members, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs published the regulations in terms of section 27(2) of the Disaster Management Act on Tuesday, 28 February 2023 as short and medium-term interventions. The regulations aim to protect and provide relieve to the public and to deal with the destructive nature and other effects of the disaster by amongst others minimising the impact of load shedding on livelihoods, economy, policing functions, national security services, education services, health, water services, food security and so on, reducing and managing the impact of load shedding on service delivery and support life serving and specified critical infrastructure, providing measures to enable the connection of new generation and supply and providing measures to improve Eskom’s plant performance.

As a matter of emphasis it is important to state that co- operation from the spheres of government would be crucial in executing the disaster management regulations as stipulated earlier. All institutions across government for the duration of the declared national state of disaster within the available resource will adopt energy serving measures to contain the effects of load shedding, ensure continuous operation of health facilities, water infrastructures and other essential services, release and mobilise resources including human resources equipment, etc, release their personal for the rendering of emergency services and provide for this purpose subject to affordability.

The regulations therefore empower relevant Minister to issue directions to argument the regulations for the purpose of giving effect to the objects of the disaster regulations.
Thank you, very much.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, Chair. Deputy Minister, electricity crisis is not new and it is also not a natural disaster. When the country experienced the first electricity blackout in 2007, Eskom had issued warnings that because of the electrification of the majority of the households that

were previously excluded during apartheid, the supply of electricity surpasses the demand and it was being overtaken. Medupe and Kusile were supposed to have been completed long time ago. Eskom deliberately reduced maintenance spending and consequently power stations are breaking down causing load shedding. Deputy Minister, is the President not abusing the Disaster Management Act by making you and the Minister of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs sign a deal with incompetent management of Eskom? And will the use of the Disaster Management Act not open a space for industrial scale corruption like we saw with the COVID-19 corruption?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much, House Chair. I think that we need to engage objectively with what the impact of load shedding is on the various aspects of the society.
Indeed, when we have load shedding that affects hospitals it puts lives at risk. Indeed, when we have load shedding it impacts water reservoirs, it impacts people’s access to basic resources such as water. Indeed, when farmers stand up and complain that in fact this could impact their farming activities and therefore impact on food security in the country, the impact of load shedding is therefore a disaster.

Objectively, I think hon Mkhalip, it is important that we engage with what the impact of the load shedding is on society, on communities, on the economy, on lives and on livelihoods and then say, was it relevant for the President to make an announcement as declared by the Minister of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and I would argue that, in fact it was correct.

The question is, how do you ensure that you mitigate against the maleficent when such possibtly occurs? That is the matter that both the executive and Parliament should continuously apply amongst based on the previous reports around possible maleficent and abuse of legislation that seeks to deal with the impacts of load shedding on society. Thank you very much.

Ms E R J SPIES: Thank you, House Chair. Deputy Minister, can you provide us with the details of the engagements held with all relevant stakeholders at provincial and local level including premiers, MECs, directors-general, DGs, of provincial departments, mayors and municipal managers to discuss concerns and contingencies with regard to the recently declared state of disaster, and to guide them on avoiding

financial liabilities when accessing funds for assistance? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you, House Chair. In the short period that I have been here there are few things I can confirm. The first of course is that the letter was received from the hon the Premier of the Western Cape requesting that a state of disaster be declared to mitigate the impact of load shedding on society. To that I can confirm. I can confirm that in the few weeks that I have been here, there has also been a confirmation of the fact that there was a meeting of the President’s co-ordinates, the council that involves all premiers, the SA Local Government Association and relevant Cabinet Ministers to engage with matters related to load shedding. Were there engagements? I certainly can confirm that and I’m sure that the hon member would appreciate. To the extent that she requires details, I would need to do a little bit of more research. Thank you very much.

Mr F D XASA: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, addressing load shedding crisis requires multiple role-players and electricity users are critical in resolving

the problem. What role could citizens play in supporting the national disaster intervention to reduce energy demand to lower load shedding? Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you once again, House Chair. Whilst appreciating that in fact the energy crisis is primarily as a result of challenges on the supply side based on the underperformance of Eskom’s generating capacity and of course the low energy availability factor, we also have to appreciate that, in fact, we can collectively make a contribution on the demands side to mitigate both the impact of load shedding on communities, but also to mitigate the impact on the environment and the reduction of slew to emissions by instituting a number of initiatives that we can undertake as business and as households. This would include the reduction of consumption particularly through switching off geysers and load management within households and business, working on our municipalities on home on load reduction efforts, installation of energy efficient installations such as light emitting diode, LED, lights and other appliances in our households, preventing illegal connections and reduce the pressure on the grid. But also take

full advantage of the measures as announced by the Minister of Finance in the Budget Speech that indicated tax incentives to install amongst others solar installations in our households and also efforts to assist lower income households by government initiatives to reduce load within our respective households. Thank you very much.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. House Chair, arising from the response by the hon the Deputy Minister, the ACDP like so many others, is deeply concerned about the ongoing load shedding and the devastating impact that it has had on households, businesses and the economy. We appreciate the steps that you have said are to be taken to reduce the electricity usage. However, what would be catastrophic would be a total black out of the grid, and have forbidden that the day shouldn’t happen. We see however that the state of the disaster regulations permits various Ministers to exempt certain areas from load shedding. Hon Deputy Minister, what steps would be taken, working with the Minister of Electricity, to ensure that the exemptions from load shedding are not granted in situations which increases the risk or can directly lead to a total electricity blackout of the grid?
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Swart. I think I would agree with the hon Swart that in fact the impact of load shedding has been devastating and continue to be devastating to the households, to the economy, etc. The reason, in fact, primarily amongst others that the decision has been taken to institute or to declare the national state of disaster is to mitigate the possible impact of a total blackout but also to the impact that load shedding has had on the economy and on society.

Therefore, in terms of the regulations that have been published, it has been identified that Ministers could be able to take decisions and issue directions that would declare certain areas as exempted from load shedding but also to ensure that we mitigate the impacts such that we do not get ourselves to a stage of total blackout. At least in a number of engagements we have had and I participated in so far, I have been convinced that the objective is there to ensure that at no cost should this country get its point of a total blackout. I can comfortably say that the efforts currently underway certain mitigate against it. Thank you very much.

Question 157:

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY for PLANNING, MONITORING

AND EVALUATION (Ms P S Kekana): Hon Chair, you are saying the Minister on the virtual platform? Question 157, doesn’t relate to the Minister for the Department of Planning, Monitoring and evaluation, DPME. It is for the Minister in the Presidency. It is not in the Department of Planning, Monitoring and evaluation. It is Minister Ntshavheni. We are different. I am responsible for the Department of Planning, Monitoring and evaluation with Minister Marupene, the Minister in the Presidency will be dealing with that. Thank you, Chair.

An HON MEMBER: But we just need answers only.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY for PLANNING, MONITORING

AND EVALUATION (Ms P S Kekana): They are saying Deputy Minister Sonto is on virtual who will deal with it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister Ntshavheni, is it Ntshavheni? Ntshavheni.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Hon

House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hello, hon Minister. Will you take the question?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni):

I will take the question, hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, hon Minister, please, go ahead.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Maybe just to indicate that the financial disclosures and lifestyle audits are the prerogative of the President as he is the one who appoints Ministers and he also appoints director-generals. However, just to say the issues around financial disclosures and lifestyle audits are managed in terms of executive ethics code that is applicable including the disclosures to the National Assembly and the disclosure to the executive for their interests. Nevertheless, that question will be dealt with by the President. When we received it we have started engaging with the President on whether he will want to include that in the performance agreements. Thank you

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon T H James. I think a mistake has occurred today, hon members. I think a mistake has occurred today. The security guys were not informed to come to work and apparently there is a lot of work to be done today. For the first time it looks like it will be from both sides and history will be made. The hon James. The first supplementary question will be ... [Inaudible.] ... by the hon James.

Mr T H JAMES: Thank you, hon House Chair. What measures are in place to continuously monitor and evaluate the performance of Ministers and accounting officers in accordance with the performance agreements?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, House Chair. May I request that I keep my video off to manage bandwidth?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, go ahead hon Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, House Chair. The President continues to engage with Ministers on their performance and in terms of their performance agreements and in line with the quarterly reports and their annual reports that are submitted to both the presidency in the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and also through Parliament portfolio committees and select committees. With those evaluations he then discusses at the strategic planning sessions and the Cabinet and we are required to improve. However, this question in all earnestly puts me in a very difficult spot because it is a question that must be responded to by the President.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, I think we will all agree that the current mechanisms we got in place clearly is not working in terms of lifestyle audits. The heads of department, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and others are not complying. We know this is impacting on how we carry out our mandate. What additional measures would you put in place to ensure that there is greater compliance by all relevant authorities on an ongoing basis to ensure that they comply and, of course, indeed ensuring that we are then able to hold them accountable?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, House Chair. Currently, the Planning Commission, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, are working on reviewing the policies and the implementation so that they can be a universal implementation including on the financial disclosures and lifestyle audits.

If members would recall, all heads of departments and government officials are required to submit financial disclosures by a particular period and they are not allowed to do business with the state. In that regard the Planning Commission; the Department of Public Service and Administration; and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation are working on reviewing the policy to include the lifestyle audit on that matter. They will then submit to the President for the decision in terms of implementation. Thank you.

IsiZulu:

Mnu Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.

English:

Minister, given the importance of financial disclosures and lifestyle audits as tools in the fight against corruption, the recent allegations of political meddling and corruption at Eskom made by the former chief executive officer, CEO, André De Ruyter, emphasise the urgency and imperative to clamp down on the unacceptable noncompliance by some senior officials and Ministers in this regard.

However, in light of Mr De Ruyter experience that when you report the involvements of a senior ANC politician in corrupt activity at Eskom through Minister Gordan, he was told and I quote: “You have to be pragmatic and to enable some people to eat a little bit.” Will the Minister agree and concede that this government’s anticorruption effort actually cannot ever and will not ever succeed because they would essentially target and expose someone of their own Cabinet colleagues?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Mbhele knows that he is politicking. On the allegations of Mr De Ruyter, he was advised by both Minister Gordan and the government to open a case against those he alleges are corrupt, either in the ruling party or who are Cabinet members. This is because you can’t just make

allegations, you must submit the evidence and that there should be prosecution. It is for that reason that the governing party opened a case against Mr De Ruyter for sitting with allegations or for knowing allegations of corruption and not acting about it because it is imperative on all South Africans to report instances of corruption when they become aware. That will ensure that law enforcement takes place.

As government we have set up the fusion center to deal integrative with corruption and also forms of maleficence and we are winning that battle. The compliance, I then need to clarify that: The financial disclosure provisional applies to officials from the director-general to the lower levels and those in the state-owned entities. However, there is no such requirement for Ministers and that is why the President through the work that has been done by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, the Planning Commission and the Department of Public Service and Administration is awaiting a review and a proposal of an implementation system for the lifestyle audits.

In that regard, the President last year explained to the House that he will announce soon a date at which the financial

disclosures of Ministers$ and lifestyle audits of Ministers are done. The financial disclosures of Ministers currently are managed through the executive ethics code and also because the majority of us are members of the National Assembly we are also disclosing as other Members of the Parliament. We are disclosing to the National Assembly in terms of the provisions that are provided for by the National Assembly. Thank you.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: I will take it, hon House Chair. Mr Cyril Ramaphosa ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... order, order, hon members. You are disturbing the speaker.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Listening is a skill, comrades. Mr Cyril Ramaphosa announced when he assumed office in February 2018, that he would conduct lifestyle audit for Cabinet Ministers and senior officials. It has been five years since he made the empty promises. Is the President unable to introduce lifestyle audits for Ministers and Deputy Ministers? This is because there may be situations where in people have millions of US$ in their mattresses and sofas that they use to finance their luxurious lifestyle. The whole thing of waiting for commission

of inquiry into state capture given last year as an excuse, was just a delaying tactics. Listening is a skill, just listen comrades.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chair! Can I raise a point of order, Chair? My member was drowned by the ANC howlers. We did not hear her. Can you offer her an opportunity again? This is very important, Chair.

IsiZulu:

Sihlalo, ngicabanga ukuthi ubuginisile, kufuneka ubize ama- bouncer.

English:

These people are misbehaving.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Mkhalipi. Let us allow the Minister to respond.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, hon House Chair. I wish hon Mkhalipi was not fed the question and she had asked herself properly then she could understand what it means because part of the reason I couldn’t

understand what she was saying is because the question was incoherent. Nevertheless, that as it may, the President announced the lifestyle audits ... [Interjections.] ...

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... Chair, Chair! Order, order, Chair. I think the hon Minister can’t respond like that. She can’t tell the Member of Parliament that she’s incoherent!

An HON MEMBER: You can’t tell the Minister how she should answer the question ... [Inaudible.] ...

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... if the Minister ... [Inaudible.] ... the question she must say so. She can’t say to a Member of Parliament that she is incoherent. That is out of order, Chairperson, I take exception. Can you, please, protect us, Chair. Firstly, my member was drowned by the ANC; secondly, is the Minister ... [Interjections.] ...

An HON MEMBER: ... is that your member or a Member of Parliament? Is that your member?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members, order. I think, hon Mkhalipi, I also have to take this liberty

to protect you from your own self because before you make an input you await the response of the Chairperson. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you want to get an answer for but the manner in which you go about it. You have requested that your member be given an opportunity to repeat the question. We can only discern that from what the Minister is saying. If the Minister could not hear what she was saying she would not be able to answer. Hon Mkhalipi, let us give your member a chance again to ask the question.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much and please don’t ... [Interjections.] ... may you, please, don’t ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... order, order, hon members. Order, hon Mkhalipi. Order, please. Go ahead, hon member.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Mr Cyril Ramaphosa announced when he assumed office in February 2018, that he would conduct lifestyle audit for Cabinet members and senior officials. It has been five years since he made the empty promises. Is that President unable to introduce lifestyle audit for Ministers and Deputy

Ministers? This is because there may be situations where in people have millions of US dollars in their mattresses and sofas that they use to finance their luxurious lifestyle. The whole thing of waiting for a commission of inquiry into state capture given last year as an excuse, was just a delaying strategy. I thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms K P S Ntshavheni): Thank you, hon House Chair. I had heard the question. I had heard the question the previous time the problem is that the question is incoherent in how it is formulated, but that as it may, the President is not delaying the introduction of lifestyle audit for Deputy Ministers and Ministers. Hon members will recall President appoints Ministers and Deputy Ministers from the Members of Parliament. Therefore, when the introduction of lifestyle audits for Ministers and Deputy Ministers takes place, we must find the mechanism of extending that to Members of the House of Parliament. We know that there are those who wear overalls on top of Guccis and Louis Vuittons who are fake maids and garden boys.

So, the President has to make sure that whatever it is applied when he changes or reorganises the executive those Members of

Parliament who then become available to be appointed they also have gone through the same, so that we do not have a problem of dubious characters coming in because they cover their fancy clothes and their stolen monies including the Venda Building Society, VBS, Bank loot under their red overalls. Thank you, hon House Chair.

An HON MEMBER: Your members of the ANC looted with VBS not the EFF members.

Question 188:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much House Chair. The District Development Model, DDM’s implementation evaluation was commissioned and conducted in the three pilot sites of eThekwini, OR Tambo and Waterberg to identify potential misalignments between implementation and the intended outcomes of the DDM programme.

The evaluation also aims to draw lessons and experiences and document case studies of emerging good practices in the three pilot sites. The department aims to further enhance the evaluation process through the following mechanisms:

Firstly, to test the assumptions of the DDM and the findings in terms of relevance, effectiveness, efficiency, sustainability, risk management and communications. Secondly, to ensure implementation of guidelines issued by the National Treasury and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, Department of C-operative Governance, DCoG, and their provincial counterparts to entrench joined planning and to the institutionalisation of the DDM across spheres of government.

A circular guiding the implementation of DDM was issued in January 2021. This process was followed by the review of one plans to an intergovernmental one plan assurance panel which constituted DCoG and other sector departments. A circular to further guide the development of one plans was then issued in August 2022 based on the recommendations requirement.

The review process ensures that sector departments improve their participation in provincial, metro and district director general, DG, and process and that the offices of the premier and provincial Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs strengthen their DDM coordination goals

and responsibilities. Currently 31 out of 52 districts have reviewed and updated their one plans. Thank you very much.

Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Minister, considering that the District Development Model is a practical intergovernmental relations mechanism aimed at enabling all three spheres of government to work together, I would like to know which other practical mechanisms the department has in place for all three spheres of government to work together to exchange best practices which could especially be beneficial to the 66 dysfunctional municipalities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): The District Development Model is anchoring the intergovernmental relations process to the extent that it is about the decentralisation of intergovernmental relations.

Noting that in fact various other mechanisms of intergovernmental relations have been instituted by government. This includes the President’s Coordinating Council, Minmecs and other forums to ensure that we are able

to share experiences across government and ensure that there is coordination of efforts within government as a whole.

But coming back to the District Development Model, the idea was how do you check that coordination from a national and provincial scale to the lowest possible level to enable coordination by all three spheres of government and to ensure that these practices are also shared with various other municipalities throughout the country. Thank you very much.

Mr X N MSIMANGO: Thank you very much House Chair. Deputy Minister, earlier when you were responding to one of the questions, I realised that hon Mkhaliphi is very happy because you got to this. My question is, introducing the new system takes time to mature as a new way of functioning hence the department started with pilots. Based on the current experience, what measures are the department taking to ensure all sectoral departments and entities are obliged to a one plan approach?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much hon Msimango. Section 47(1) of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act

on things empowering provisions for the Minister of the Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to either develop guidelines, frameworks or regulations that will outline and frame the general conduct of intergovernmental relations in the republic.

Section 47(1)(b ) of the same Act is therefore used to frame the development and gazetting of a set of regulations that will provide the legal framework for the institutionalisation of the District Development Model across all spheres of government as well as the implementation of the DDM through the development and the implementation of districts to match one plans.

The department will gazette the set regulations for public comment in the first quarter of the next financial year and thereafter final regulations for implementation by all. Thank you very much.

Ms E R J SPIES: Thank you House Chair. Deputy Minister, the District Development Model is clearly not the answer to the challenges faced by local municipalities. This is becoming clearer by the day. There are dysfunctional municipalities who

actively resist Section 139 intervention like Abaqulusi Municipality who recently took the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to court for extending the intervention.

The municipal manager blatantly told the Cooperative Governance Portfolio Committee last week that they do not need an administrator. Minister, how will the DDM prevent dysfunctional municipalities from engaging in long court battles whilst the community suffers due to no service delivery?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): The District Development Model was not designed as a mechanism for intervention in municipalities. It is a mechanism of intergovernmental relations and a mechanism for coordination and the development of one plans.

Now, I have been out of Parliament for almost two years but there is a Monitoring, Support and Interventions, IMSI Bill, that is before Parliament and that Bill is intended to ensure monitoring, evaluation and intervention by both provincial and national government in municipalities.

That specific legislation is intended to deal with exactly the point that you are raising and it is a piece of legislation before this Parliament unless members did not know. It has taken me a comeback after two years to simply remind you.
Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I agree with you, that is not the purpose of the District Development Model. However, the dysfunctional state of the municipalities particularly in KwaZulu-Natal and I am glad that the member mentioned Abaqulusi amongst many.

You should take Nongoma, people have had no water for years. If you look at Ulundi, a vehicle that is driving around with an IFP badge on it, the problem in these municipalities is cadre deployment, corruption, looting and tender fraud. This is what the problem is. There are bags of cash moving from person to person. How is your department going to deal with this?

That is why as the NFP we suggested that, will you consider a credible process where all tender procurements are advertised, who got the job, who they are, who are the directors, what is

the value, what is the itemised billing on a monthly basis in those communities to try and reduce or eliminate the levels of corruption and looting that is taking place? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): I have heard a few statements made around Ulundi, Abaqulusi and so on. And of cause hon Hlengwa and his colleagues are saying it is possibly incoherent but it might be true. I am not here to say objectively whether it is true or not.

When the District Development Model was conceptualised, one of the first things we undertook in the department was the profiling of all the municipalities in the country and that profiling included institutional, financial, fiscal spatial economic and other profiles of the municipality.

A good and able appropriate action to be undertaken in the respective districts to an extent that the issues are about maleficence and governance. There are interventions to enable us to intervene and to the extent that national government has to intervene even ahead of provinces who have demonstrated an appetite to do that in instances where national government

must intervene in terms of Section 1397 to enable national government to respond to those issues.

We continue to urge provincial governments to take the first step in terms of intervention and seek concurrence from national government. It should only be under exceptional circumstances that we as national government take the first step in terms of intervention.

That enable us to effectively manage intergovernmental relations to ensure that subsidiarity remains. The government closest to where activity takes place should be able to intervene and in the instance of municipalities, provincial government should be the first point of call to intervene but as I said, to the extent that we have to do it, if the province does not, we certainly do have the appetite to do that. Thank you very much.

Question 159:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much, House Chair and hon Mpumza, we have noted the unprecedented increase in the number of municipal councils post the 1 November 2021, local

government elections that have gone into coalition governments. This was also the first time that the elections in four metropolitan councils of the City of Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, Nelson Mandela Bay and the City of Tshwane produced hung councils.

The Constitution vests legislative and executive authority in the municipal council, and the effective exercise of these functions is crucial for a capable and developmental local government. As the highest decision-making body, the council must steer the municipality, determine a strategic direction, and take crucial decisions. In practice, coalition governments have often been unstable in many instances and these terminate before the end of the council.

Instability in local coalitions can have a severe impact as it may compromise the municipality's ability to adopt policies and bylaws, make senior management appointments, pass Integrated Development Plans, IDPs and budgets, et cetera. We acknowledge that we have a unique system of local governance within South Africa and in enhancing it is important that we find a solution that will be responsive to our uniqueness.
Therefore, as the department, we are urgently planning to

convene all interested stakeholders, and in particular organise local government, provincial governments, municipalities, themselves, and other stakeholders to engage in a discussion about how to stabilise coalition governments.

The starting point is to enable co-ordination and collaboration amongst those that constitute these coalition governments, but our experience suggests the most appropriate mechanism would suggest that we need a regulatory mechanism to ensure stability and stable governance in the municipalities. Now, there's a member that says, kick the ANC out of them.
Well, maybe I should say, and I'm getting distracted, but maybe I should say that you should look at those who do not constitute the biggest part of the municipalities that seek to dictate what happens in these municipalities and identify where the crisis has been in terms of leadership and the management of coalitions and history will tell you that in fact, and this is contemporary history, will tell you that it's not the ANC, it is you and your friends. Thank you very much.

Mr G G MPUMZA: Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, coalitions are composed of different political parties with different

philosophies and ideologies. What is the state of basic services provision in metropolitan municipalities such as Tshwane, Johannesburg, and eThekwini under coalitions relative to the pre-coalitions period? Thank you.

IsiZulu:

USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA OF CO-OPERATIVE

GOVERNANCE NEZINDABA ZOMDABU: Uthi uBaba u-Mpumza, mhlonishwa uMkhaliphi, kwenzenjani ...

English:

... I’m reinterpreting the question ...

IsiZulu:

 ... kwenzekaleni komasipala abakhokhela le mifelandawonye? Baba nezinkinga.

English:

What are the type of problems that are being experienced in municipalities, and part some of these problems related to amongst others the passing of the budgets, the adoption of the Integrated Development Plans, the appointment of senior management, and the signing-off of projects due to the

nonfunctionality of councils? But these problems have exacerbated to the extent that they impact service delivery. I'm going to make a practical example of at least an experience I had, in 2016, the City of Johannesburg had a surplus in excess of R4 billion, by 2017, that city was in deficit. It was complete mismanagement, misgovernance, and a redirection of resources in the wrong direction.

The Auditor-General’s reports are there to demonstrate practically that is the situation. The result has been, at least in this municipality, a practical experience of the degeneration and deterioration of services in these municipalities. Now if you come to the municipality of Tshwane, the ... [Inaudible.] ... experience has been a situation where the Auditor-General's findings have been very scathing on those that led the municipality since 2016.

But then the evidence is there with the number of mayors that have been there since these coalition governments in the City of Tshwane, and you can ask that to the party that has been leading these coalitions and the crisis that they've given to the people of Tshwane, and the list goes on about these problems created by your leadership of these municipalities.

But if you want us to do that, evidence is there. We can produce audited statements, both performance audits and financial audits to demonstrate how misgovernance by the DA has collapsed these municipalities. Thank you very much.

Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, coalition governments often need to marry opposing ideologies. I would like to know what has the Minister done to liaise with all political parties in order to develop an agreed-upon strategy to maintain a minimum standard of service delivery should a dispute between coalition partners arise. Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chairperson ... in fact, they're normally about coalitions in South Africa, is that sometimes they put blue and red in the same room and create purple coalitions and experience has been that some of the decisions being made in these municipalities are incoherent, and this has been experienced practically in these municipalities where in fact, the lack of ideological coherence suggests that what brings the parties together is more subjective than objective. I think it is our collective responsibility on us as political

parties to find partners around whom we cohere ideas, ideologies, orientations, and a whole range of objectives.

Simply put together, a coalition because you don't like the ANC, demonstrates that it has produced what we have experienced which I spoke about earlier. As indicated in my response earlier, the department has made a decision to convene all stakeholders and parties, and this should be extended to political parties to develop a framework to govern coalitions. It is our responsibility to ensure that even political parties develop appropriate frameworks around which these decisions can be made. I can at least speak on behalf of one political party that is currently developing a coherent framework on that matter. Thank you very much.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Chairperson, in the light of the fact that coalitions are the future of our country, and with the fact that councils are being bought for votes where secret ballots are brought in voting. Is the Deputy Minister of the view that the challenge can be addressed through the regulation on how and when a secret ballot can be used, and to try and address the bribery as to protect the citizens of South Africa that

voted for a specific representative in the community? Thank you, Chair

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chair, I certainly agree that regulations and a framework should be developed to govern and manage coalitions, but we must worry about the conduct of certain political parties. For a party that calls itself democratic to request its members to not vote with an x but with a number is an affront to democracy itself in those respective municipalities, and that conduct should never be encouraged. That conduct is an affront to democracy, and at least if you wish to conduct yourself that way, remove the word democracy from your name.

We're also finding a situation where certain political parties are requesting their members to undergo lie detector tests so that they can determine whether these members utilised their conscience to arrive at a different decision where the person that has been identified to lead is deemed inappropriate and a member makes a different decision. These members have been subjected to lie detection tests.

Now, that also is an affront to democracy and the choice of members, but I certainly agree that we need regulations, but if you would want to deal with the conduct of political parties, look on that side of the room and not on this side. Thank you very much.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, as you know, Al Jama-ah is taking the lead in a co-governance arrangement in the City of Johannesburg, and it has been working well, and the last thing we would want is the interference of the Deputy Minister or the Minister in this arrangement. Does the Minister agree that he must not interfere or the Minister must not interfere in co-governing arrangements? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chair, the Ministry has not been involved and will never be involved in coalition arrangements. Those arrangements are made by political parties. We are currently looking at how we facilitate and regulate so that we can create stability and certainty in our communities by ensuring that in instances where there are coalition governments, we don't experience what we currently experiencing.

That destabilises services to people and the integrity of the institutional and financial standing of these municipalities.

That's our intervention, but we are not there as a department or as a Ministry to co-govern or to also oversee how coalitions work. That is a matter between political parties. Thank you very much.

Mr B A RADEBE: House Chair, I request that we deal with Question 162 because the Deputy Minister is held outside by something urgent, please. Immediately after Question 162, you come back to that one.

Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair, I think what happened is wrong, and you were very polite to delay ... [Inaudible.] ... remarks to allow the Deputy Minister to come back, but we are all here for the purpose of this session. It can’t be that someone when is their time to respond and they are not here, and they haven’t briefed you or taken the courtesy to brief the Whips of the other parties. Thank you.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: House Chairperson, can we be taken serious here. This session is not taken serious, House Chair.

Sometimes the Deputy Ministers on the platform don’t want to answer questions. Now, the Minister is here and we are not taken serious. Can this session be taken serious, and we are here to work. So, she’s here now and she must answer the question. She must not walk up and down, up and down. This is not Miss South Africa here.

Mr B A RADEBE: House Chairperson, with the uttermost respect, the Deputy Minister who is supposed to respond to this one is Minister Tolashe. She is outside because there is something happened and she had to go outside urgently. That is why we are making a request to you as they are here that get to the next question, when she comes back she will answer that. She has not run away. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson, can all this song and dance be discussed by the Whippery. We all acknowledge that it’s wrong what has happened. However, House Chair, what will happen is that all these points of order and interjections, they’ve eaten to question time ...

IsiZulu:

... kuzofika ihora lesithupha bese usuyavala bese sokuba udaba olunye.

English:

... can it be dealt with that? If you’re supposed to be here you’re here and that is it. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, thank you very much. You have made your points of order. Apparently, there is misunderstanding as well ... could you please, please! Apparently, there is misunderstanding as well, the Minister who is supposed to give answers is not here. There seems to be a mistake that it’s Deputy Minister, Pinky Kekana, and it’s not necessarily the case. Therefore, a request has been made and I consider the request. We will go to Question
162. I also note to what hon Hlengwa has said. Thank you very much. Question 162 has been asked by the hon B Hadebe to the Minister of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. The hon Deputy Minister!

Question 162:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chair and to the hon Hadebe, the

Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs through the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent is supporting municipalities to implement the strategic directives of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy as the sector leader on energy matters. The Department of Mineral Resources and Energy gazetted the amended schedule 2 of the Electricity Regulation Act 4 of 2006 on 12 August 2021, increasing licensing thresholds where energy generation to 100 megawatts which was later amended to no limit in terms of megawatts generation in an effort to deal with power shortages, to expedite the process and allow municipal participation in electricity generation. Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, is conducting renewable energy feasibility studies on five districts that will outline various sources of energy availability to reduce the dependency on the grid.

The renewable energy feasibility studies are on the eastern sea ports: that is the district of O R Tambo, Alfred Nzo, Ugu and Harry Gwala including the Amathole District. These studies are at an advance stage of development and they are expected to be completed by the 30th of June 2023. Misa is also supporting municipalities to participate in energy efficiency

demand-side measures. Therefore, this programme is provided through a grant being administered by the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. The grant is aimed at providing efficiency measures on various municipal infrastructure by replacing high energy components by energy efficient components. For example, light emitting diode, LED, lights, installation of variable speed drives on water treatment plant and waste water treatment plants. The support by Misa technical professionals being provided is through the development of business plans conducting technical audit for municipalities and also managing the municipality appointed service providers that are implementing these measures.

Misa is also providing support to municipalities to implement solar high-mast lighting and not be dependent on the grid for public lighting. Misa is further developing a proposal to be completed by the end of May for the nongrid electrification programme to be earmarked for rooftop solar panels on health facilities, schools and other public facilities, particularly in rural areas. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr B M HADEBE: House Chair, we welcome back hon Deputy Minister. It’s like you’ve never left. A crisis and a problem

can be a basis to create new opportunities and to rethink local government’s self-sustainability in the interest of the people. Now, Deputy Minister, I’m just giving you an opportunity to elaborate further. What are the short and long- term opportunities for local government and residents to invest in energy for their sustainability and as a revenue- generating means for local government? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chair, through you to hon Hadebe, thank you. Municipalities have an opportunity to speedily conclude feasibility studies and speed-up the implementation of all local generation of electricity from renewable energy sources. Feasibility studies identified the readily available energy source mix which when coupled with adequate battery storage systems can result in reliable grid that residents and businesses can all access. In the short- term residents and businesses alike have an opportunity to invest in rooftop solar panels and sell excess energy back into the grid. Municipalities also have the opportunity to create tariffs to allow for buying and selling of electricity.

Furthermore, municipalities have an opportunity to attract solar panel manufacturers to develop plants within their jurisdiction in order to benefit local residents through job creation. In the long-term, there’s an opportunity for municipalities to enter into public-private partnerships for energy generation in order to provide long-term energy sustainability within their jurisdictions. The development of power generating plants in municipalities through public- private partnerships, PPPs, should provide opportunities for local residents to participate. The energy mix with renewables will reduce air pollution and carbon dioxide, CO2, emissions. Thank you very much.

Ms G OPPERMAN: House Chair, through you to Deputy Minister, the President openly stated that he is not responsible for load shedding leaving municipalities to deal with the state of disaster. In light of this, can you provide examples of successful energy demand management interventions that have been implemented by local municipalities with support from the department other than the 90% of Western Cape municipalities and the City of Ekurhuleni that allow small-scale renewable energy to feed-in to the grid and compensate households of businesses that feed excess energy back into the network.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Hon House Chair, my comments earlier covered a lot of the questions that are being asked. However, I’d like to give you a few examples now that you have chosen to select the issue of the Western Cape. I’d like to say to you that, in fact, by 2016, Johannesburg, Joburg, was already at the stage where were not load shedding up to level 2. That was in 2016 already. You can only guess who collapsed it. You can only guess what happened in 2016 that collapsed it. The City of Johannesburg implemented, amongst others, ripple control measures to ensure the management offside, off-geysers and to reduce load. The City of Johannesburg implemented programmes related to the management of smart meters and through smart meters reduce consumption. A partnership that was entered to with the residents, I spoke earlier about the programmes that we have developed to support other municipalities.

However, I thought it is important to share these examples because these are examples of decisions political that have impacted on communities negatively. You can shout all you like but the evidence is there to suggest that these programmes were stopped after 2016. Thank you very much.

Mr K CEZA: House Chair, through you to the Deputy Minister, the challenge is not the demand. The problem is that the ANC government under the leadership of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa is failing to generate enough electricity that will meet the demand. Municipalities are facing a different challenge. There are more than eight million indigent households who do not have access to free basic electricity and municipalities say that they do not have the money to cover everyone. Our question to you, Deputy Minister, is that, are municipalities deliberately failing to give indigent households free basic electricity as a way to reduce demand energy? If not, why are there so many indigent households without basic electricity?
Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chair, indeed, to the hon Ceza, I think it is important to restate what is, in fact, a fact which is, but the equitable share model allows or a contribution towards free basic water and electricity to indigent households. Municipality is based on their capability and financial resources tend to extent this based on their own resources, but as a basic principle this government has made a conscious decision to ensure that indigent households then

access to basic services to the extent that you’ve municipalities that are not complying with equitable share ... [Inaudible.] ... it is important that we deal with the source of the problem which in certain instances has to do with basic ability to generate revenue in those municipalities with basic ability to ensure that we pass balance budgets and we’ve a phenomenon called unfunded budgets which, in fact, is an anomaly on its own.

It is there where we are intervening as a department. It is in the identification of the problem diagnosing the problem and resolving it for how it is. However, it is certainly not as a result of a lack of commitment from this government to deal with the issue. Now, as to the interventions by the President, the President has made a number of announcements with regards to intervening in load shedding. This includes of cost establishment of a Ministry of Electricity, the Minister of
Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs declaring National State of Disaster, the publication of regulations to manage the state of disaster, investments through tax incentives and other capital initiatives to reduce the impact of load shedding and to reduce energy demand from households and businesses, a commitment to create a platform for trading

with municipalities that allow feed-in tariffs and these regulations have already been passed by National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, that will be enable those who generate electricity, particularly through rooftop solar to be able to ... [Inaudible.] ... access energy into the grid.

These are both fiscal and regulatory measures including, of course, institutional decisions that are there to mitigate the impact of load shedding and to reverse what we currently all agree is a crisis. However, we can’t place the blame on municipalities, we have to focus on supporting them and on ensuring that they are able to execute their executive obligations diligently and efficiently. Thank you very much, House Chair.

Ms S A BUTHELEZI: House Chairperson, through you to hon Deputy Minister, one way of reducing the energy demand is through investing in alternative electricity such as diesel, generators, and all sonar panels. Considering that these alternatives are expensive which means that disadvantaged South Africans will not be able to afford it. I would like to know what plans the department has in place to prevent further

inequalities between municipalities consisting of communities that are able to afford alternative electricity and those who cannot. Thank you, House Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Hon House Chair, through you to the hon Buthelezi, firstly, I think that we all agree that different measures need to be instituted to deal with the advent of load shedding. Therefore, this includes, amongst others, investing in households, domestic and business initiatives that allow for generations and the reduction of consumption from this households. Now, what are the measures that have been announced? I take us back to the announcements by the Minister of Finance. The first is an announcement that said that we will ensure that households those that can afford are able to excess a tax incentive to enable them to invest in rooftops solar.

The second is an initiative or direct public investment in poorer households to ensure that they have excess to rooftops solar. The third is to find a way in which we’ll continue how to align, this is even beyond what the Minister has allowed or announced recently. However, this is a situation where

municipalities are enable to generate electricity themselves and enter into our purchase agreements with private sector role-players that are investing energy sources. This we have seen being implemented in various municipalities and provinces in the country. I’m sure given a time and opportunity one can share the detail of some of these projects, the design of these projects and how these are being executed. This is simply to ensure that we reduce the pressure that there’s on the grid.

I should say that as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs we will remain concerned about the impact these measures will have. This is on the ... [Inaudible.] ... we are dealing with the upside in terms of ensuring that we reduce the pressure of load shedding and that we eliminate load shedding. On the other hand we accept that this will negatively impact the revenue of municipalities because they generate surpluses from the electricity they sell and cross-subsidised other services in municipalities.

Therefore, you need a fiscal response for how you will mitigate now. The impact, this is going to have on local government itself because you can’t solve one crisis like

creating another crisis. We must be able to balance this and ensure that this is executed, cognisant of the need to protect the economy, cognisant of the need to ensure reliable energy supply, but also cognisant of the need to ensure that we strengthen our local government system and its ability to deliver services to our communities. Thank you very much.

Question 178:

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Hon Chairperson of the House, thank you for the question. In reply to the question, in line with this mandate of regulating the socioeconomic conditions of women, youth and persons with disabilities, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities and youth development - These instruments guide stakeholders across sectors in designing programmes and projects that transform the socioeconomic conditions of the youth, enabling them to access sustainable livelihood opportunities. Some of the key interventions are being implemented by various departments, working closely with the private sector, development partners, and civil society.

Direct to the department, the National Youth Development Agency and the Department of Small Business Development provided 7 530 young people with financial enterprise support and 30 735 young people with nonfinancial enterprise support. The ... [Inaudible] ... National Youth Service Programme led by the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities together with the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA and the Jobs Fund confirmed a total of 46 695 placements in services in organisations around the country.

These young people are working in public schools and early childhood development centres. The private sector-run Youth Employment Service created nearly 82 000 work opportunities for young South Africans, injected thereof over R4,6 billion into the economy which is almost 58% of Youth Employment Service, YES young women, 88% comes from grant recipients’ households and 91% have dependents. Thank you very much hon Chair.

Ms N K SHARIF: Deputy Minister, the question asked to you was very specific yet you gave a very general answer, but that’s okay. Youth unemployment continues to rise unabated under this government. The National Youth Service is one intervention

that is meant to combat this, but these interventions continue to fail, given the fact that youth unemployment increased to 61% in the fourth quarter of 2022. Out of the 169 000 new net jobs created in South Africa, 167 000 of these jobs was created by the only province of hope, the Western Cape in the last quarter of 2022.

So to break it down, in the exact same time period the last quarter of 2022, the ANC government increased youth unemployment to 61% while the DA created 99% of new net jobs.

Deputy Minister please tell us, when will your government start taking notes from the DA and admit that your government is failing to create jobs for young people? Will the National Youth Service, NYS be scrapped, or will it be reinvented like all the other interventions the ANC sucks out of their thumb? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): I can’t be
educated by the minority party unfortunately. You must win elections before you teach everybody else on how to govern. On that line and in line with its mandate of regulating the

socioeconomic condition of women, youth and persons with disabilities, the Department of Women Youth and Persons with Disabilities has been able to develop national policy, legislation and framework for youth development. These instruments guide stakeholders across sectors in designing programmes and projects that transform the socioeconomic condition of the youth and enable them to access sustainable livelihood opportunities.

In line with what I’ve just mentioned, the Presidential Employment Stimulus programme which created 1 million opportunities, of which more than 80% of the beneficiaries were young people and 60% were women. The Department of Basic Education Schools Assistance Programme, which placed 287 000 young people in schools across the country, which those young people are earning the national minimum wage and accessing meaningful employment.

In conclusion, the National Youth Development Agency and the Department of Small Business Development developed this. I think I’ve made mention of the 7 530 and the 30 375. Thank you very much Chair.

Ms A S HLONGO: Deputy Minister, what impact can that department highlight on its role in transforming the socioeconomic conditions of youth, to access sustainable livelihood opportunities? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): The Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities works with different government departments, civil society and private sector organisations to respond to the needs of women, youth and persons with disabilities. Recognising the level of violence and social ills and that many youths require support, there’s a greater intersectoral collaboration and responsive partnership between the departments and other different line function departments in the Social and criminal justice system cluster, as well as the civil society organisations.

The department advocates for and refer young people to the victim of gender-based violence and in need of psychological support to the relevant organisations for further assistance. In case of youths who are victims of violence, they are linked to the Department of Social Development, Health, Justice and Constitutional Development and SA Police Service to access

psychosocial service which protects or promote their physical and mental health, as well as their psychological wellbeing.

The victims are also referred for empowerment services offered by social workers in government and nongovernmental organisations. There are also help lines accessible to victims such as Department of Social Development Command centre and SA Police Service, SAPS domestic violence helplines, which are providing the assistance by qualified social workers and police officials to assist victims and survivors of gender- based violence, GBV.

There are also helplines that are run by the nongovernmental organisations such as counselling service by SA Health Depression and Anxiety Group, Marie Stopes Clinic and Sonke Gender Justice for rape crisis, termination of pregnancy or GBV. These psychological social service are available to individuals, their family and the communities. Thank you very much hon Chair.

Mrs N P SONTI: The National Youth Service Programme ...

IsiXhosa:

... yohlulekile. Into eyenza le nkqubo ingasebenzi ingaphumeleli kukuba ayikho intsebenziswano phakathi kwe-NYDA kunye neengxaki zabantu abatsha. Ulutsha lujongene nokungabinawo amathuba emisebenzi, ingxaki yeziyobisi nobundlobongela njengezinye zezinto ezibaleseleyo kulutsha lwethu.

I- NYDA kwakhona yohlulekile ekuqinisekiseni ukuba iyafikeleleka kuwo wonke uMzantsi Afrika, ijonge kakhulu iidolophu. Thina sithi le-NYDA kufaneleke ukuba ibenazo iiofisi kuyo yonke indawo nakubo bonke oomasipala, kodwa oko akwenzeki.

Ingaba uMphathiswa uza kuqinisekisa njani ukuba ulutsha phantse kuzo zonke iindawo luyinxalennye yale NYDA? Nditsho kwiindawo umzekelo ezifana neNkandla, iNgwavuma kwaZulu-Natal ngaphandle nje kokuba bezizamela ukuze bajongane neendawo zabo. Ndiyabulela.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): The Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities has established ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order hon members, will you please allow the Deputy Minister to respond.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): [Inaudible]

...persons with disability are part of the machinery at a national and also provincial level. Through the office of premiers in nine provinces, the purpose of the machinery is to play and monitor progress on the mainstream of implementation plans for persons with disabilities. The President has further established the Presidential Working Group on Disability, made up of members as individuals, nominated by the sector from different organisations and expertise in disability to advise and guide government in implementation of programmes for persons with disabilities.

The department collaborates with sectors on advocacy programme consult, plans and monitor ... [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, we can’t hear the Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): You can’t hear me if you’re making noise. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon Deputy Minister. Hon Mkhaliphi.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair can the Deputy Minister ...

IsiZulu:

... akhulume eduze ngombhobho wokukhuluma ngoba angimuzwa nokuthi uthini? Umbuzo wethu lo, sifuna ukwazi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon member. Deputy Minister, would you like to repeat that because you still have a minute and 13 seconds.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Chair, the hon member is making noise. How is she going to ...[Inaudible]... me? She can’t hear me because she is making noise even now.
Thank you Chair.

Mrs N P SONTI: But it is me who was asking. You must answer me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! Order hon members! I have always been asking the House to be quiet.

IsiXhosa:

Nksz N P SONTI: NguMphathiswa onjani lo unomsindo kangaka?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Primrose Sonti, hon Primrose Sonti ...

IsiZulu:

... kwenzenjani manje?

IsiXhosa:

Nksz N P SONTI: Ndibuza uMphathiswa, ulwile kakhulu.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: With due respect, I don’t know why the ANC members are saying I’m making noise and that’s why I didn’t hear. How can I make noise when I’m sitting alone? I’m saying with due respect. Chair ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, can you allow me to deal with this.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, with due respect ...

IsiZulu:

... ngithi angimzwanga bengifuna ... nginentshisekelo kwimpendulo yakhe.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay thank you. Please allow me to deal with this. Hon members for the mere fact that these responses by the Deputy Ministers and Ministers are not necessarily meant for the House, but are meant for our communities out there. Could we please make sure that during the responses, those people out there can hear what we are saying, what the Ministers say and the Deputy Ministers are saying. So I will allow the Deputy Minister to repeat that answer. I am sure I will not go back to this situation again hon members. Hon Deputy Minister, could you please briefly respond again to that question. I think it should not be the order of the day that we should go through this.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Hon Chairperson, I hope we’re not going to be abused like ... [Inaudible]
...where people come and make noise and still want to hear the content. I hope we’re not going to be abused like we are being abused now, where people come in the House, make noise like children and claim that they can’t hear the content. How can you hear the content when you are making noise like a child?

The Department of Women Youth and Persons with Disabilities has established the National Disability Rights Machinery. The organisation of the persons with disabilities are part of the machinery at a national and also provincial level. Through the office of premiers in the nine provinces, the purpose of the machinery is to play and monitor progress on the mainstreaming of implementation plans for persons with disabilities.

The President has further established the Presidential Working Group on Disability, made up of members as individuals nominated by the sector from different organisations and expertise in disability to advise guide government in implementation of programmes for persons with disabilities.
The department collaborates with sectors on advocacy

programmes consult, plans and monitor mainstreaming of programmes for persons of such. Thank you very much hon Chair.

Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Minister, the National Youth Service Programme is directed at addressing South Africa’s chronic youth unemployment challenge through disadvantaged communities. Considering this, I would like to know how the department has been addressing youth unemployment, while struggling to implement the National Youth Service Programme. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): The department works with different government departments, civil society and private sector organisations to respond to the needs of women, youth and persons with disabilities, recognising the level of violence and social ills, and that many youths require support. There is greater intersectoral collaboration and responsive partnership between the department and other different line functional departments in Social and criminal justice system cluster as well as civil society organisations.

The department advocates for and refer young people who are victims of gender-based violence and in need of psychological support to the relevant organisations for further assistance. In case of youth who are victims of violence, they are linked to the Department of Social Development, Health, Justice and Constitutional Development and the SA Police Service, to access psychosocial service which protects or promote their physical and mental health, as well as their psychological wellbeing.

The victims are also referred for victim empowerment services offered by social workers in government and nongovernmental organisations. There are also help lines accessible to victims such as Department of Social Development Command Centre and SA Police Service, SAPS Domestic Violence Helpline, which are providing the assistance by qualified social workers and police officials to assist victims and survivors of GBV.

There are also helplines that are run by the nongovernmental organisations such as counselling service by SA Health Depression and Anxiety Group, Marie Stopes Clinic and Sonke Gender Justice for rape crisis, termination of pregnancy and

the GBV. These are the services that are available to individuals as well as the families. Thank you Chair.

Question 164:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Chairperson, I thank hon Ntuli for the question.

As from April 2021, lifestyle audits were made mandatory for all public service employees. This includes top government officials from level 13 to level 16 — that is, director- general level.

Great progress has been made in terms of the number of audits completed. The Department of Public Service and Administration encourages 100% performance of lifestyle audits for all national and provincial government departments.

Compared to the 2021 financial year, there is an indication that great progress has been made in the current financial year, 2022-23, with 71 of the 114 provincial departments across all nine provinces conducting lifestyle audits, as compared to only 47 provincial departments conducting lifestyle audits in the 2021-22 financial year. This marks an

increase of 21% – from 41% to 62% compliance – for provincial departments in the 2022-23 financial year as compared to the previous year.

The participation of national departments has, however, decreased as three fewer national departments than last year – that is, 24 as compared to 27 – conducted lifestyle audits in the 2022-23 financial year.

To encourage 100% compliance, the Department of Public Service and Administration conducts training interventions and technical assistance for all government departments.
Departments are also provided with a guide on how to implement lifestyle audits in the public service. As part of an enforcement mechanism, non-compliance letters are sent to non- compliant departments.

In terms of Rule 22 of the Public Service Regulations of 2016, lifestyle audits fall within the scope of management, by heads of departments as they mitigate risks for departments.
Decentralised audits have created an additional layer of assessment of financial information.

Ethics officers are now in an excellent position to conduct lifestyle verification ... [Inaudible.] ... on financial information of employees as it gets submitted. As the ethics officers are au fait with their environment, they are in a better position to make a call on the final outcomes of lifestyle audits, especially regarding unexplained wealth.

Departments were given clear and specific timelines pertaining to conducting lifestyle audits, as expressed in the guide on implementing lifestyle audits in the public service. The lifestyle audits process has been synchronised with the financial disclosure framework so as to ensure availability of information when audits are conducted so as to lessen the workload for ethics officers. Thank you.

Ms M M NTULI: House Chair, I thank the Deputy Minister for the response.

Deputy Minister, we would like to ask a follow-up question to allow you to elaborate on what process can be used to institutionalise vetting and lifestyle audits as a consistent practice in the public service for an ethical public service as we are seeing administrators and persons taking the figures

that are procurement related and to identify public servants involved in maladministration. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

House Chairperson, I thank hon Ntuli for the follow-up question.

The Department of Public Service and Administration does not have a mandate on vetting public service employees. That is a competence of the State Security Agency. Such responses should be handled by the said department.

Since April 2021, it has become compulsory for national departments, provincial departments and government components to conduct lifestyle audits on all public service employees. The Department of Public Service and Administration provides implementation support to the departments, including senior administrators and procurement personnel, on how to implement lifestyle audits, especially when conducting lifestyle reviews and lifestyle investigations.

To institutionalise lifestyle audits, each year in October to November the Department of Public Service and Administration

issues a circular and a report template to departments to facilitate the implementation of lifestyle audits in the public service. The reports are submitted at the end of January each year and the information is used to produce an annual report on the compliance of government departments with lifestyle audits in accordance with Rule 22 of the Public Service Regulations of 2016. This report is presented to the portfolio committee in Parliament where non-compliant departments are identified. The Department of Public Service and Administration is currently consulting with National Treasury, the Department of Co-Operative Governance and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, to adopt regulations for lifestyle audits under the Public Administration Act of 2014 so as to extend this requirement to all spheres of government. Thank you.

Dr M M GONDWE: Deputy Minister, it has become abundantly clear that seven out of the eight ANC-run provinces are ignoring the President’s announcement in relation to mandatory lifestyle audits for public servants, because they are afraid of what they will uncover. Now your department wants to rope in the SIU to conduct lifestyle audits on behalf of non-compliant government departments such as the Presidency and National

Treasury. Is this, coupled with the ongoing management discipline crisis in the public service, not indicative of the fact that the Department of Public Service and Administration is completely failing in its mandate to enforce compliance with norms and standards within the public service? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

House Chair, I’m not sure from where the hon member of the Democratic Alliance is getting her statistics because the report that I’ve just presented indicates that, in terms of the provinces, 71 out of the 114 provincial government departments have actually complied. I have actually indicated even the percentage, to say 62%.

Now you are coming here. You report to say that eight of the provincial government departments that are under the ANC do not comply. So, what is important is really listening to the responses in a manner that you can meaningfully engage, rather than grandstanding and coming with information that is actually not true. And basically, you’re talking about the norms and standards. [Interjections.] We have actually...

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, you have asked a question. Allow the Deputy Minister to respond. Please!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: We

have that framework for norms and standards. It’s completely

... [Inaudible.] It has been adopted by ... [Inaudible.] We now have ethics officers in all government departments. This is how serious we are in ensuring that we fight corruption. And we are actually not just paying lip service to this; we are very serious about it. You can actually see it if, of course, you develop eyes. You can see it in the kinds of provisions that we actually make to ensure that we enforce. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): The third supplementary question will be asked by hon C Motsepe.

Ms S M MOKGOTHO: Thank you, hon Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Are you hon Motsepe?

Ms S M MOKGOTHO: House Chair, my name is hon Shirley Mokgotho. I’m ...

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay. Just wait. If you are standing in for her, please do indicate because I’ve got hon Motsepe ...

Ms S M MOKGOTHO: I was going to indicate but you interrupted me before I could I could state that to you.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. You may proceed.

Ms S M MOKGOTHO: Thank you, House Chair.

Deputy Minister, has a lifestyle audit been conducted on Mr Cyril Ramaphosa and Ministers in the Presidency? And why are we not starting with the President to demonstrate the integrity of the process? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

House Chair, I think this is a question that has actually been asked before when the Minister in the Presidency was actually responding. You mentioned this question, and the Minister actually said to you, the whole issue of lifestyle audits on the executive, including Members of Parliament ... Remember, members of the executive are Members of Parliament, so these

lifestyle audits are not actually going to be isolating only the executive ... even yourselves, as Members of Parliament
... we are going to have to conduct those lifestyle audits. That was the response that was actually given to you because, you know, within this constitutional democracy, we need to be fair. Let’s not actually persecute others under the pretence of oversight; let’s actually do processes that are inclusive. Indeed, as a country we are fighting corruption and this is the route we have to take. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order! [Interjections.] Hon Mkhalipi ...

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: He

is part of the executive!

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Deputy Minister, don’t engage. [Interjections.] No, hon Mhkaliphi, I hope you have done that for the first and last time! The last supplementary question will be asked by the hon R M Cebekhulu.

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Chair, I will take the question.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, you may proceed.

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you.

Deputy Minister, we all understand that ... [Inaudible.] ... audits are done to determine whether the lifestyles of employees are commensurate with their known income. And we know for a fact that ... we have learnt, in fact from the ruling party, that monies which are received from corrupt activities are smuggled through friends, family and some trusts. How can you trust that this exercise on which you have embarked is credible and should be trusted by the public, taking into account the fact that your own party is involved in clandestine activities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Chairperson, I don’t know what type of a question this is. Things have been formed in somebody’s head, and then they come and they present them as a parliamentary question to say that the members of the ANC have families where they hide monies in trusts. Really, I would not be in a position to assist you in that regard because we get paranoid, we see everything as wrong. We actually manage to even create stories about things

which do not exist. I am not in a position to actually manage to engage on that. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Are you rising on a point of order, hon Gwarube?

Ms S GWARUBE: House Chair, the Deputy Minister cannot ask Members of Parliament not to pose questions to her because she simply does not have the answers or does not have the desire to answer them. The reality is that this is the platform that we have through which to hold the executive to account.
Whether or not she thinks the stories are made up is neither here nor there. This is the time that we get to ask Ministers questions that are important to this House and to the people at home. I think her posture in this regard is really uncalled for.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Gwarube. Your point is taken and noted. The Deputy Minister has responded. We shall proceed, hon members, with Question 184. [Interjections.] Hon members, if you want to raise a point of order, do indicate as such, and I will take it kindly. Thank you.

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, ...

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): And you know, hon members, if the Deputy Minister or a Minister has responded and you are not satisfied with the answer, you know what to do. The Deputy Minister has responded. Hon Buthelezi?

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, with due respect, I don’t think you are correct to say that the Deputy Minister answered. She said here that she cannot answer my question. So don’t mislead us.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon member. I’m happy that you heard her correctly. But she said something, and we may proceed. [Interjections.]

Thank you, hon members, we shall proceed ... [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon Mkhaliphi ... hon members, the point I am making ... point of order ... the point I am saying ... she has responded to say that she is not in a position to answer. I am not going to engage with you. We shall proceed. Hon Mkhaliphi, you hand is raised.

IsiZulu:

Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Sihlalo, angicabangi ukuthi uyayisiza leNdlu njengoSihlalo.

English:

A member last week spoke about the accountability of the Ministers. And then we also spoke about this matter on the programming committee. It cannot be that the Deputy Minister comes here and refuses to answer and, as the Chair, you also said, no, she has said something. Why are we here then? No, Chair, please assist us. We are here to work, and we need Ministers to account.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mkhaliphi, allow me then to proceed to say that the hon Deputy Minister has responded to say that she is not in a position ... I am not in a position to force her to respond with more than what she said. Thank you.

Question 184:

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation) Ms P Kekana: House Chair, hon Mbhele, the budget underspending is actually to consultancy and advisory

services for research projects, which is at the tune of R12,3 million and the difference of R5 million from the R17,3 million is allocated to various cost drivers, expenditure items, outside consultancy and advisory services as asked in that oral question.

So reasons for the delay is procuring consultancy and advisory services for research projects. They have been mainly due to non-responsive bids and bidders that failed to meet the minimum qualifications. So, people could not meet those qualifications and that’s why we could not spend the
R12,3 million.

On what dates were the bids solicited? The Integrated Planning Bill phase, the bid was advertised on 01 June 2022, closed on 01 July 2022. The review on medium term, strategic framework and development of the national annual strategic plan, NASP, the bid was advertised on 01 June 2022 and closed on July 2022.

On development of the centralised data management and analytical system the bid was advertised on the 30th of May 2022 and closed on the 30th of June 2022. On provision of

services and support to deal with all other things including the local government management improvement model. The bid was advertised on 01 June 2022 and closed on 30 July 2022.

The last one, on panel of service providers, invitation to serve on DP, an e-panel of researchers. The bid was advertised on 20 May 2022 and closed on June 2022. Thank you very much.

Mr Z N MBHELE: House Chairperson and thank you, Deputy Minister for the response and the clarification. The challenge is that we are operating in the larger environment, whereas the DA we’ve been calling and advocating for the Presidency to proactively facilitate and drive the pursuits of strategic public-private partnerships as a key pillar of the economic recovery and growth. And the Deputy Minister might be aware that the Nedbank Chief Executive Officer, CEO, Michael Brown last week Tuesday, indicated willingness and readiness from the business sector, to work alongside government in accelerating and delivering key strat reforms.

As we know that it’s in line with what we heard from President Ramaphosa, to say that the Presidency is supposed to be the nerve centre hub of coordinating, planning and implementation,

as well as what still seems to be a spots commitment to finalise social compacts as a framework for the whole of society approach to address our challenges.

And the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME in particular through the kind of work that should have happened through these procurements is being to play a central supporting role, for that research information analysis and recommending integrations.

Therefore, Deputy Minister these instances of understanding are delays to that progress. And the indicate a seemingly business as usual approach where supply chain is moving at a snail pace and there’s delays and bottle necks and long time frames.

And we really can’t afford this at the time of acute national crisis, where we need smart, speedy solutions. So umbuzo wami uthi [my question is] would agree that things are moving too slowly and we need to pick things up, in what is new and different that would be done to drive things forward? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation) Ms P Kekana: House Chairperson, the bigger part of your question was an input and agreeing. And I like the fact that you are agreeing with the President on reaching out to social partners in making sure that we have
public-private partnerships, something that we want to drive, that’s one.

But two, you will remember hon member that we have seen the hindrances, especially on supply chain and procurement, the ease of doing business. And one of the interventions that the President need was to get somebody who can also deal with some of these interventions and the bottle necks in the form of Mr Sipho Nkosi, that was the first intervention.

The second intervention which I think you will also be closed to, it’s our association with institutions of higher learning, especially as the department of planning with target and evaluation. In as much as we have delays on this project in particular, to enhance and make us to deal with research that can inform some of the government programmes in the form of Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, annual performance plan, APPs and all those things.

In as much as we acknowledge those delays, we have brought in State Information Technology Agency, SITA, quickly to help us because the bidders could not meet what we wanted, what our researchers wanted. So, we did not want to go out for apples and then get tomatoes. That was the issue, so we are trying as far as possible and we are working with our own Department Science and Innovation, including universities to say how best do we deal with some of these things. To make sure that:

1. Where are we in terms of our National Development Plan, NDP.
2. What are the challenges on resources? [Time expired]

Ms J NOTHNAGEL: House Chair, multiple of departments have a problem of underspending due to the various challenges. Some are self-created, whilst others are due to external factors.

Others, the department monitors underspending in government, in the public service and what are the common cause or factors of underspending. I thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation) Ms P Kekana: Thank you very hon House Chair

and hon Nothnagel. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation monitors the performance of departments through various monitoring programmes. One of these programmes is the institutional capability improvement framework, the ISAP which monitors the performance of departments across four key performance areas, especially around planning and programme performance, financial management, human resource management as well as governance and accountability.

And a key element within the financial management, key performance area, KPA is expenditure management which looks at the management of unwanted expenditures, such as unauthorised irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure, which also include underspending.

And in addition, the DPME monitors the achievements of the departments targets as articulated in annual performance plans, APPs, versus their budget expenditure. This is done through DPME’s electronic quarterly reporting system.

Some of the main reasons of underspending in the departments include, poor planning, bad procurement practices and lack of

project management capacity, which results in delays and lack of implementation of APPs.

So, as the department we are in the process of strengthening, monitoring in these areas especially in the financial areas, because we are worried about departments that surrender money every financial year. Thank you.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: House Chairperson, there was some misguided report by the propaganda machinery of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, that wanted to claim that his decision to appoint a Minister of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation was there since 2009.

The Ministry of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is not new, but why is the department relying on consultants instead of hiring full time government employees to do the work? Are these consultants part of the people who are hired by the money that business gave Mr Ramaphosa? And why is government working like a charity when we pay taxes for employment of staff? Is this not state capture? That is why this department must be abolished. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation) Ms P Kekana: Thank you very much House Chair and thanks to our hon member there. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation it’s a very critical and strategic department and can’t wish it away. Because, it is about integrating, planning and implementation of programmes across the three spheres of government.

If you look at what the DPME is bringing across the three spheres, comes as a result of this department, in line with what the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs CoGTA is doing. So, the relationship between the two is something that will help the planning and the implementation of government issues are concern.

The second issue, this is one department that has highly qualified people. If one member of the EFF sits in this committee will tell you that we have specialist in various frontline sector monitoring programmes, doctors and everybody and we are proud of these black South Africans and white and yellow South Africans, who serve in the state.

We are using consultancy yes, on other areas precisely because there may be other capacities that we need to strengthen, because one of the things that you don’t need to do and maybe just for free.

Our department over and above dealing with what the NDP and the MTSF is doing, we also can’t turn a blind eye on what Statistic South Africa Stats SA is picking up out there, on what other rating agencies are saying. So, whatever that comes, that talks about the brand South Africa, this department has to be alive to it and say how do we respond to some of things that affect us, indirectly. Thanks. [Time expired.]

Question 153:

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson, noting that in the 2022-23 annual performance plan, APP, the department committed to monitor and enforce accountability, report on intimidation of the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide by government and stakeholders in line with its mandate through the following interventions: The submission of

monthly progress report that are collated and analysed by the department and quality assured by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and the Presidency and use to produce annual reports.

On a monthly basis, the department presents this progress report that outlines gaps, challenges and areas of improvement across ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Dennis? Hon Dennis? Information and communications technology, just ... [Interjections.] ... Mr or Ms Dennis, please. Thank you. You may proceed.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Should I proceed, Chair?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): You may proceed, ma’am.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): On a monthly basis, the department presents this progress reports that

outlines gaps, challenges and areas of improvement across the six pillars of the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide to various government departments clusters as a standing item. These reports are used by the department as a tool to monitor and enforce accountability of accounting officers and afford them the opportunity to access progress made by their respective departments in the implementation of the allocated National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide targets. And they are supposed to take necessary corrective measures.

The last two National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide annual reports produced by departments include the score cards that further reflect level of sector department performance across the six pillars of the GBVF-NSP as recommendations for implementation. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon Sonti on the virtual platform.

Ms N P SONTI: Thank you, Chairperson. The conviction rate of sexual offenders is atrociously low and a cause for concern. This primarily because 40% of sexual assaults survivors are children. More than 80% 0f children are sexually assaulted by people they know and in most cases, family members. This means that majority of children who survived sexual assault are still living in close proximity to their perpetrators. What is the department doing in the interest of protecting sexually assaulted victims? Why are children exposed to the danger of a failed justice system?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you, hon Chairperson, as a member of the society I agree totally with the hon Sonti. I agree with her, totally. And I am part of the organisation that deals with the matter outside Parliament. I really would want to say to her that we need collaboration from everybody else – from this House, our organisation and the NGOs where we would be able to further influence the policy direction and make sure that we close the gaps that are haunting all of us. Indeed, this is not acceptable and it is a scourge. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon C M Phiri.

Ms C M PHIRI: Thank you, House Chair. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members in the House, order please. Hon members, order. Hon Phiri, you may proceed, ma’am.

Sepedi:

Moh C M PHIRI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Ke tiee sebaka se ke tamiie Molekgotlaphethiii yo moswa, Motlatiatona Tolashe.

IsiXhosa:

Hayi ungaphezulu kwabo.

Sepedi:

O ba swere, mme. Mopresidente ke mmethela matsogo.

English:

My question will directly be about, Deputy Minister, the National Strategic Plan that has recently made development and accelerated the fight against gender-based violence and

femicide with various social partners. As this is not an issue of government but a problem of the society as well, my question will be: “What is the progress and impact of implementation of the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide so far by various social partners and government as well?”

Sepedi:

Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Ke re matsogo go mme yo. O swere thipa ka bogaleng.

English:

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The National Strategic Plan on Gender- Based Violence and Femicide has six pillars that the department has been monitoring since 2020 amidst the context of a deeply retrenched gender-based violence and femicide pandemic. There are pockets of progress concerning the gender- based violence on the national agenda and making a priority on the COVID-19 context where the gender-based violence and femicide once recognised by the President as a second pandemic requiring prioritisation. While a summary is presented

detailed information is available of the reflecting report on the implementation of the National Strategic Plan on Gender- Based Violence and Femicide for May 2020 to September 2023.
That can be accessed from the departmental website.

The report identifies varying levels of achievement, challenges, constraints across the pillars even we have made strides. We have managed to institutionalise the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide to ensure that this scourge’s programmes are embedded in the planning, budgeting, monitoring and evaluation cycle of government.

The second one is the policy that elevates the prevention of gender-based violence and femicide using evidence-based informed programme, and challenges patriarchal attitudes and help seek masculinity working collaboratively through the implementation of the 100-day challenge. The legislative reforms that seek to enforce accountability and combat impunity commitment to improve shelters of the victims and survivors of the gender-based violence and femicide accomplished through repurposing government ... [Inaudible.]

Increased advocacy has set aside 40% target using public set up procurement. Some department has made good progress - we can boast, to ensure realisation of this target. We welcome partnerships of ... [Time expired.] Thank you, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you so much. The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon N K Sharif.

Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you very much, House Chair. Deputy Minister, the monitoring and evaluation interventions that you mentioned is not working. After so many years still not getting this right is not only embarrassing, but it will be a mark on the failing legacy of you, your predecessors and of this government. According to you, Deputy Minister, if monitoring interventions are working the way that they supposed to work, then you would be able to pick up on what issues there are on the ground in police stations, in the Thuthuzela Care Centres, TCCs, the DNA lab or even the sexual offences cases, for example. So Deputy Minister, if this is the case, why haven’t you or your department or even the interministerial committee that is supposed to be combating gender-based violence and femicide dome anything to fix the

myriad of gender-based violence and femicide we are facing in this country. I thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. For the first time, the President of the Republic and of the ANC, during the most difficult time of years – during COVID-19, he accepted the fact that the gender- based violence and femicide is a scourge, and that was for the first time. We realise and recognise the difficulties that exist. We all stay in those communities and we recognised that there are weaknesses. However, already in the Eastern Cape, a lab has been established, and I think that a very big breakthrough. It might look little, but for all of us as South African women and pour children, it is a step in the right direction. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The last supplementary question will be asked by the hon M D Hlengwa.

Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, how has the department made use of digital

technologies in the fight against the increase in sexual assaults cases? Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Already we have registered a very strategic partnership with institutions like Telkom and other wherein we are trying our best to make sure that what we know and recognise in the world of technology we can do better, hence we are moving forward with those partnerships in order to realise the society that is gender-based violence and femicide free. Thank you, Chair.

Question 166:

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Question 166 is asked by hon V P Malomane to the Minister of Public Service and Administration. The Deputy Minister.

Ms N P SONTI: Chair!

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No! No! Allow the Deputy Minister to respond and then you will make your follow-up. Thank you.

Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson!

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No! Hon Sonti Primrose, allow the Deputy Minister to respond to a written question and then you will do a follow-up thereafter.

Ms N P SONTI: I don’t have a follow-up. I just want to ask you something now.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay. Deputy Minister, you may take your seat. Proceed, hon member.

Ms N P SONTI: Thank you, House Chairperson. House Chairperson,

...

IsiZulu:

 ... bakuphi oNgqongqoshe abakhulu? Kungani sonke isikhathi kuphendula oSekela Ngqongqoshe. Kungani? Bakuphi oNgqongqoshe? Ukuphi umama uZuma? Ngifuna umama uZuma lo esivote naye.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Sonti. Hon members, order! Hon members, let us assist the member. We have been informed in the Chief Whips Forum, as well as in the

National Programming Committee that there is a Cabinet sitting and they would request that the Deputy Ministers respond.
Hence, all political parties are aware with that arrangement. For your benefit, I thought that I must just explain that. The Deputy Minister, you may respond.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, House Chairperson and thanks hon Malomane for the question. It is the responsibility of the heads of departments and not that of the Minister of Public Service and Administration to discipline the employees who contravene the code of conduct as contained in Rule 19 of the Public Service Regulations of 2016. If employees are not disclosing the required information such as companies on the eDisclosure system annually, upon detection, progressive discipline is implemented. The ultimate outcome of a continuous non- disclosure of companies’ misconduct is normally dismissal and is subject to disciplinary enquiry.

The Minister of Public Service and Administration has a mandate in terms of Pubic Service Act section 16A and B to write letters to the executive authorities of those employees who are not complying, to request them to take disciplinary

action and to report the steps taken against non-compliance employees. It is in the purview of the Minister of Public Service and Administration to request executive authority of heads of departments who do not comply to take necessary disciplinary steps against them. I thank you, House Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The first supplementary question will be asked by hon V P Malomane from the virtual platform.

Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you very much, House Chair. I will take this question on behalf of hon Malomane. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister. Are there senior management of the public servants who have been identified to be doing business with the public service? And how does the state procurement process ascertain financial disclosures? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, hon Mgweba for the question. Through Treasury Central Supplier Database information that is matched with personal salary information, employees who are conducting business with government are detected. As of 31 November 2022, the Department of Public Service and Administration identified

six members of senior management and 50 employees who are below senior management to have allegedly been conducting business with the state.

On a monthly basis, the Department of Public Service and Administration receives data from the National Treasury covering all and new registrations from the Central Supplier Database for that month. This information is compared with persal, which is Personal and Salary System, to identify public service employees on the list of new registrations. The data also contains information from the chief procurement officer regarding the payment received by these public service employees when conducting business with the state. When employees are identified to be conducting business with the state, the Department of Public Service and Administration alerts the relevant government department and request the department to investigate and to provide progress report.

Once it is confirmed that the employee is conducting business with the state, the department is required to open a criminal case as it is a criminal offence in terms of section 8 of the Public Administration Management Act. With the assistance of the task team consisting of the SA Police Service and the

National Prosecuting Authority, these cases are prioritised. I thank you, House Chairperson.

Setswana:

Ngaka M M GONDWE: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo wa Ntlo.

English:

Deputy Minister Pilane-Majake, no tangible action has been taken against more than 3000 public servants who illegally received grants. No action has been taken against more than
300 public servants moonlighting as councillors. Now, the same report by the Public Service Commission has revealed that a total of 379 senior managers within the public service, including HODs, were engaged in other remuneration work outside of the public service and only 203 of these senior managers – that is a little more than 50% - provided proof they obtained permission prior to engaging in such work. Deputy Minister, when will enough be enough? When will we start seeing tangible action been taken against public servants who are defrauding the state, and brazenly flaunting public service prescripts? When will we see action?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, hon Gondwe for the concern. It is a concern that we equally have in terms of consequence management, to be in a position to completely deal with each and every one of the public servants that actually contravenes the law. We are continuing to build systems that will, in the future, manage to actually cover all that have contravened the law. Thank you.

Ms S M MOKGOTHO: Deputy Minister, we have evidence that regulation 19 of the Public Service Regulation of 2016 is not working because there is still an opportunity to appoint people in public service who have business interest. The government failed a simple thing of checking if people who are being employed in senior management do not have some form of ownership in the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, CIPC. Deputy Minister, is it not time that we just make it clear that if you work for government, especially at senior management, you cannot be in business, whether with the state or not? Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, House Chairperson. I think the question is

concerned about whether we continue to appoint people who have contravened the law. We have a new system that manages to detect whoever has had some kind of criminal activities in the public service when they are applying for a new job. So, they wouldn’t be in a position to enter the public service anymore.

One other thing is that when it comes to senior management that continues to do business with government, I think that I have indicated as to the kinds of mechanisms and systems that have been put in place to be in a position to detect them. The E-disclosure is one of them. We also use – through Treasury – the Central Supplier Database system that is matched with the persal system monthly, to see if there are any new registrations in terms of the senior management in government that are actually doing business with government. I thank you, House Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The last supplementary question will be asked by hon R N Cebekhulu.

IsiZulu:

Mnu E M BUTHELEZI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngicela ukuwuthatha umbuzo weNkosi.

USIHLALO WENDLU OLIBAMBA (Nk R M M Lesoma): Uvumelekile.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: But House Chair, I think that before I ask a question I should say that its very unfortunate that Ministers and Deputy Ministers will expect that by simply opening their mouths, that amounts to answering questions, which is not the case. I don’t that I should remind the Deputy Minister of their own policy of setting aside and who have been asked to step aside as a result of their involvement in ... [Inaudible.] ... activities. And she stooped too low, I must say. I don’t think she is proud of herself.

My question, to the Deputy Minister. I am going to ask Deputy Minister; I would like to know if any of the members of the senior management services who did not disclose their companies, were repeat offenders?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: May

I ask that hon Cebekhulu repeat the question, please.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): It’s hon Buthelezi. You may, Ndabezitha.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much. Maybe Chair, I should start my introductory words because even those I doubt she understood what I said. What is wrong?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No! Hon members, order! [Interjections.] I request that you ask the question. [Interjections.] Hon members, he has been requested to repeat the question. Can we do that.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you, Chair. I am very grateful that you have dealt with that disaster down there because I can easily handle the disaster that just spoken now. I serve with him in the portfolio committee. I would like to know, Deputy Minister, if any of the members of the senior management services who did not disclose their companies, were repeat offenders?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Deputy Minister, you may. But I would request members, before you respond ma’am, that let’s allow that when the question is asked, all of us listen. Equally, listen also to the response. You may proceed, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:

Thank you, hon Buthelezi and thank you for the aspersions that you are actually casting before you asked the questions. I think that it is something that needs to be noted by this House. Your question is whether there have been any senior management that are repeat offenders, in terms of doing business with government. We have not been in a position to detect such cases. Probably, it could be because of the fact that action is always taken against those that contravenes the law, and they are then kicked out of the system. So, there isn’t any senior manager that has ever been detected to be a repeat offender in terms of doing business with government. I thank you, House Chairperson.

Question 191:

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): Hon

House Chair, may I request not to switch on the video because of connectivity challenges?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Yes, you may.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung):

Matters raised by the Financial Action Task Force related to

South Africa are addressed through ministerial committees, including the Fusion Centre that is an integrated law enforcement centre to ensure successful prosecution against corruption criminal acts. The government uses inter- ministerial teams to deal with crime. The challenges have just been significant, however, government is to register a noticeable progress. This includes fusion centres, comprising of National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, Hawks, Special Investigating Unit, SIU, South African Police Service, Saps and financial intelligence centres.

Fusion Centre is established to improve efficiency in financial investigations related to corruption, fraud, abuse of power and maladministration. Each partner operates with its own legislative framework and mandate focusing in expertise, skills and experience of the law enforcement and other competent authority partners into a single hub. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, South Africa has been grey listed because of illicit financial flows out of the country which is 50% of the gross domestic product, GDP. Is the Minister or Deputy Minister prepared to look at the

research that shows that 50% of our GDP goes out through illicit financial flows? Assuming that is correct, what will the Deputy Minister do about it to stop the illicit financial flows out of South Africa, money that can be used for socioeconomic development? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): House

Chair, government is responding to combat unethical behaviour and criminal acts so that South Africa moves from grey listing. As I mentioned, fusion centres are established to improve efficiency in financial investigations related to corruption, fraud, abuse of power and maladministration.
Thanks, House Chair.

Ms T MGWEBA: House Chair, thank you to the hon Deputy Minister. Grey listing can impact the country’s reputation concerning its ability to combat financial crimes such as corruption and money laundering as well as terror financing which are deemed below international standards. What is the government’s plan to strengthen the country’s capacity and capability to combat organised crime and threats of terrorism which are complex to combat? Thank you very much, House Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. The Deputy Minister? Hon Deputy Minister, are you still on the platform? Hon Deputy Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): House

Chair ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order! Hon members, order! You may proceed, ma’am.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): House

Chair, that is why I mentioned that fusion centres comprises of the National Prosecution Authority, the Hawks, SIU, Sars and financial intelligence centres. Thanks, House Chair.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: House Chair, it is actually a joke that parties like Al Jama-Ah, who fail to keep the government accountable, ask such questions here. The Minister in the Presidency earlier on spoke about coherence. This question is not coherent and shows how out of touch the member of Al Jama- Ah is. This question wants the Minister to respond to measures if South Africa is on the grey list, but we are already in the

grey list. The question says ‘if’ but we are already grey listed.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon member, what is the question to the Deputy Minister so that she can respond?

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Now, hon House Chairperson, the first thing

... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order! Hon McGluwa, one second please so that I can give you a chance. Hon members, the Deputy ... [Interjections.] ... Hon Deputy Minister in the House ... [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.]

Afrikaans:

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Ek eet julle lekker nou.

English:

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members? Hon members from both sides? Hon members, allow hon McGluwa to ask his question so that the Deputy Minister can hear. Allow her

because she will not be able to hear when all of you are heckling. Hon McGluwa, direct to the question, please.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Must I start again?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, no — the question.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Deputy Minister, the task team listed problems such as the lack to prosecute those being criminally charged, and also the lack to identify financial criminals. Now, my question is what are you doing to convince South Africans and also the international task team — because you are speaking here to the international task team — that South Africa will get out of this as soon as possible?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Your time is up. [Interjections.]

Mr A H M PAPO: Point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Hope Papo?

Mr A H M PAPO: I want to rise on a point of order so that we don’t have a precedent where a member critics a question of another member before asking their question. Can I ask you for a ruling on that matter because it can create a wrong precedent in the House? It can create a very dangerous precedent. You must make a ruling on that matter, presiding officer.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon members, order! Hon members, can I ... Hon from the IFP and hon member from DA, and also hon Mgweba from this side, moving forward I will ask all of you to leave the room if you make noise. You are not allowing me to hear what the member is saying, and I will request you, hon members, to respect this House and respect ourselves. It is a humble appeal. Hon Papo, you may proceed.

Mr A H M PAPO: [Inaudible.] ... to make a ruling, maybe not today, of when a member makes a critique of another member’s question instead of asking the Minister or the Deputy Minister a question. There is no clause that allows you to critique a question of another member instead of asking your question.
That can set a wrong precedent in the House where instead of

asking a question you then make a critique of another member’s question. It is the Minister who must say if the question is relevant or not, not another member.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Papo, we shall do that and revert. He has requested me to make a ruling, not now, we will come back with a ruling. Thank you, hon members. Hon McGluwa, you have asked your question, let us allow the Deputy Minister to respond then.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): House

Chair, as I mentioned ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members? Hon members, order! You may proceed, Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): Thank

you, House Chair. As I mentioned, we have existing government structures in place to deal with illicit financial flows like Sars, Hawks, SIU and financial intelligence. Thanks, House Chair.

Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, I will take hon Komane’s follow up question. A Cabinet under the leadership of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa does not have the integrity to co-ordinate tasks to counter corrupt criminal acts and unethical behaviour when the President has millions of US dollars that enter the country without declarations to Sars and the South African Reserve Bank. This is the reason why the country is grey listed. Does Mr Cyril Ramaphosa have legitimacy to speak against unethical behaviour and financial crimes? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms N E Motaung): House

Chair, I do get the point you are raising, hon member. I may not have readily available response to provide. Please allow me to go back and look for a proper response and revert to the House. Thank you, House Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Hon members, order! Hon members, you may recall that during the security cluster Q&A time the Ministry was unable to respond to questions. We will now allow for 30 minutes to go to those questions. We will do that at 18:05.

Question 169:

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, in line with the performance reporting template all government departments report on employment equity targets on a quarterly basis and includes discussions around challenges and experienced by departments to recruit, support and retain persons with disability in the workplace. Departments are urged to develop and implement reasonable accommodation policies that employ people with disabilities and empowered with reasonable accommodation required to enable them to thrive in the work environment.

Chairperson, the departments are encouraged to ensure that all other employees, including employees in senior and middle management attend training and sensitisation on disability inclusion. All employment equity data collected from government departments is analysed and included in the annual progress report on the White Paper on the rights of persons with disabilities, which is processed to Cabinet for approval.

Chairperson, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disability co-ordinated an economic summit for people with disabilities. The focus of the summit was on employment and

participation of persons with disability in the mainstream economy. Access to opportunities for participation was identified as a major barrier. To this end, Chair, the department engages with employees to date the Department of Home Affairs, Forestry, Fisheries and Environment and others as when the employment of people with disabilities resumes to ensure that the requirements for entry accommodate persons with disability.

Chair, the department shares advertised posts with the organisation for persons with disabilities and also advocates for department through the disability rights machinery to share adverts with the department’s disability forums to increase the reach to persons with disabilities. Lastly, Chairperson the department continues to raise awareness and advocacy across government and within the private sector including communities on employment of persons with disabilities. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Ms T S MASONDO: Thank you, House Chairperson, and hon Deputy Minister, I have a follow-up question about that. How is the department ensuring its work with organisations organising people with disabilities? How is the department supporting

them improve the livelihoods of people with disabilities? Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Thank you, hon Chairperson, as I have indicated in my earlier response that the department has established a disability rights machinery. The organisations for people with disability are part of that machinery at a national and also at the provincial level and through the office of the premiers in the nine provinces the purpose of this machinery is to monitor on the mainstreaming of the implementation plans for persons with disability. The President has further established the Presidential Working Group on disability made up of members, individuals nominated by sector forums, different organisations and expertise in disability to advise and guide government in the implementation of programmes for persons with disabilities.
The department collaborates with sector and advocacy programmes, consults, plans, and monitor mainstreaming of programmes for persons with disability. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S NGCOBO: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, your department has failed persons with disabilities in the country. You have failed to fast-track the development of the Disability Rights Bill despite numerous request from the portfolio committee for your department to priorities the development of this piece of legislation. For the past financial years, programme four in your Annual Performance Plan which deals with the rights of persons with disabilities has been performing poorly failing to meet targets and underspending. Can the Deputy Minister tell us, why the department has been failing to finalise the Disability Rights Bill and when will this Bill be finalised? Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Hon Chairperson, thank you very much, in my earlier response, I made mention of the fact that a summit has been organised by the same department to make sure that we address what the hon member is articulating. Indeed, Chairperson, at some point nothing was said about disabled people, their rights and the fact that they must be brought into the economic mainstream.
Chairperson, in addition, the White Paper on the Rights of

Women and Persons with Disability which is in the process to the Cabinet for approval.

IsiXhosa:

Ndiba nditshilo Sihlalo oBambeleyo. Ndiyabulela.

Ms N V MENTE: Can I take the question?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, you may.

Ms N V MENTE: Its network problems, can you just accept that as it can apply to your difficult party too.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): I have given the permission to do so, mam.

Ms N V MENTE: Thank you, the question reads thus. Minister, we cannot continue asking the same question about the discrimination of the people living with disability while it continues. The discrimination against people living with disabilities is not only when it comes to job opportunities.
People living with disabilities cannot access services in clinics, Home Affairs offices and municipal buildings. The

only way we will be able to stop discrimination against people living with disabilities is to put penalties. Minister, should we put monetary penalty to companies that do not meet their targets and should we not move to discipline senior managers with the intention to suspend them if they do not meet the target? Thank you for the opportunity.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Hon Chairperson, thank you very much, from the onset we cannot agree with people who are not performing. However, we need not be punitive because the laws of this country outlines what needs to be done. So you must not be emotional about the matter. In agreeing with the challenges that we have, I have already alluded to the fact that, Chairperson, there is a process that is now before the Cabinet. If you can look around, the buildings are being transformed for them to meet the requirements. The matter that hon member raised is indeed a societal matter, which means then that we are all responsible for that. We might not recognise the progress that has been done, but indeed for where we are seated Chairperson, there is progress. Thank you very much.

Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, whether the department has sought guidance from organisations that represent people with disabilities or relevant ... [Inaudible] to bring vacancies instead institutional to the attention of possible workseekers with disabilities if not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN YOUTH AND

PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES (Ms N G Tolashe): Hon Chairperson. Thank you, mama, I should emphasise the fact that the matter that mama is raising, hon member Hlengwa, is quite an important one. This is why, hon Chairperson, we are working with all the sectors within the disability society. We work with the deaf, the blind even those who are physically challenged. This is the process that is unfolding, and this is what we are going to achieve, Chairperson, working with the private sector and all other stakeholders. Ngiyabonga. [Thank you.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, we are almost at 18H05 it is a one-minute left. We then shall proceed. The rest of the remaining questions will be responded to in

writing to hon members that have asked questions. We shall then now as I said earlier on allow 30 minutes for Q and A for hon the Minister of Defence and the first question that would have been asked Question 5, which has been asked by hon R N Cebekhulu to the hon Minister of Defence, Military and Veterans.

Question 5:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, we do want to confirm that, indeed, Admiral Gorshkov as well as the Russian tanker, Kama, docked and participated. We do want to add, so that I don’t have to deal with this question again, that China actually brought three vessels. They brought in their destroyer, their frigate and their replenishment ship. We want to confirm that we participated in that exercise and that we only contributed the Special Air Service, SAS Mendi and our personnel.

Now, this was all done under Operation Mosi. The first Operation Mosi has taken place in 2019 and this was a second one, Mosi II, which has been in the planning, budgeted for and was on schedule.

We also want to confirm to you and this House that there was no hypersonic or missile tested or fired, because that was not the intention of the exercise. This exercise actually benefitted the SA Navy more and not just the SA Navy, because we brought all four arms of our services to participate there. It benefitted us in South Africa more than those who brought their vessels here, because the exercises were in two parts.
We have dealt with the challenges with inshore, closer to home. We have also dealt with the deeper ocean exercise.

So, we want to say that this was an exercise amongst and between three militaries that do have agreements, that have exercised together before. This was also the militaries whose countries are sovereign states that can take a decision to continue with these exercises. Thank you.

IsiZulu:

Mnu M HLENGWA: Sihlalo, egameni le Nkosi ngicela ukuwuthatha lo mbuzo.

USIHLALO WENDLU OLIBAMBA:(Nk R M M Lesoma): Yebo,

ungawuthatha.

Mnu M HLENGWA: Khululeka sisi Pinky, ngingumntwana wenkosi. Yinto yakwethu le, yinto yamakhosi.

English:

Hon Minister, at the heart of this matter is that South Africa continues on a business as usual trajectory, in a moment of business unusual in the international community, so far as Russian relations are concerned, because of the invasion on Ukraine. Is it therefore prudent for South Africa to continue behaving in a manner, which seeks to undermine the Human Rights violations, which are taking place in Ukraine, actually joining military operations, when Russia is at war? So, for us it seems as if there is a heightened level of insensitivity to the challenges that currently prevail, notwithstanding the very neutral position that South Africa has taken on the Russian-Ukrainian war. Fair enough, it is your position, but then does this not compromise that position, because it then seems South Africa taking a side and seems you being biased?
So, whatever you want to achieve as an outcome is compromised by the fact that the partner in this exercise is currently invading another independent country. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, no, in fact, we are not neutral at all. We took a stance, as this country, to go for dialogue, to go for mediation, to go for reconciliation and rebuilding. We have taken that stance. The Head of State of this country continues to call on both the Russian President and the Ukrainian President. They continue to engage, so that we can find that.

We are not neutral at all. We are saying that we cannot continue to be used as Africa. We are a sovereign state. Are we neutral when we insist on peace and peacebuilding? Are we neutral when we continue to call upon two warring people? We are not taking sides. We are not saying this one is wrong and this one is right.

We are not neutral at all, because precisely the people who have not seen blood spilt, who have not felt the pain will easily take sides. Some of us still have scars, psychologically and otherwise. Therefore, we would not want to see children in any country being exposed to what the children of Soweto, the children of Vryburg were exposed to. That is why we insist that peace talks must ensue.

It would actually be hoped for this Parliament to remember that this Parliament is leading the parliamentary group that is on the same agenda that is led by the Speaker of the NA here, together with Namibia and another country, to try, as Africa, and as African Parliaments and states, to say, you must talk.

You are saying that we are contributing. We are not contributing. We did not send troops. All those countries that have sent troops to either side, are the people that you should be pointing a finger at. We are not sending troops. We continue to advocate for peace and for reconciliation. Thank you.

Mr T N MMUTLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, this matter of military exercises to exchange expertise and tactic has drawn a lot of public interest. Many times, there are inconsistencies around this matter. When other countries are engaging in similar exercises, there are no concerns, particularly from the extremists and right-wing parties in this House. For example, when the Americans were in our shores to undertake a joint military exercise with the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, in July last year, there was

never a question. Just for the benefit of all of us, can the Minister elaborate on the purpose of these exercises and how they are carried out between countries, including military to military relations. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, it is true. Now, in the recent months, we have had exercises with counterparts, we have had exercises with the United Kingdom. We have had exercises with China, with Nigeria, with Cote d’Ivoire, with Ghana, to mention a few. We have had exercises, in the recent years, with Brazil, with the United States of America. We will continue to have these exercises.

We must also ask ourselves, who benefitted from tis exercise? It is the South African National Defence Force, because through the budget cuts over the years, we have not been able to recapacitate, we have not been able to update our technologies. When these exercises take place, we are able, because then the troops are exchanged. We are able to then expose the members of the SANDF to the latest technologies, but we are also uniting the men who do battle. I am deliberately using the word “men” because most of times, wars

are not instigated by women. Once you have leaders of defence forces across the world knowing one another, exchanging, meeting, you begin to reduce distrust, begin to be able to talk to the fellows on the other side. So, it is beneficial for South Africa. It is beneficial for this reason.

You will also remember that our coastal responsibilities span across the two oceans. They go as far as Angola. We have been approached by the AU and the UN to expand up to the area of Ivory Coast. We go up to Tanzania on the other side. So, we are very busy.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, we both know that our navy could not prepare for this exercise, as reflected by the reports from you own department, with no Operation Corona and proper patrols, due to the unavailability of vessels. We have no capabilities that could have benefitted from the presence of the Admiral Gorshkov. The Minister of Finance implied that international consequences were not properly considered. The only logical purpose seems to be a propaganda platform for Russia’s war against Ukrainian civilian targets. This will damage access to our most important trade and investment opportunities and exacerbate

our economic hardship. Minister, what were your objective considerations when you allowed this exercise to proceed, knowing very well our own limitations, the expected international backlash and the negative economic consequences? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, hon Marais would have been the first one to tell us that we have incurred expenses, if we have cancelled the exercise, because it was planned for. It is also not absolutely true that we contributed nothing. Yes, it is true that our vessels have been held at the dock. They have not been... That is precisely why the men and women of the SANDF who are a capability, and a resource for this country, needed to get an opportunity to be involved and to learn and to exercise with those that the ... [Inaudible.]

Now, it is also true that, when we look at it, who are we talking about when we are saying are damaging the chances of growing our economy? The Americans? We are in touch with the Americans. They have offered us their aircrafts. We intend to go and fetch it. It has nothing to do with the bilateral relations between two or three nations.

It has to be understood that we do need to grow the economy and that is why we are running around re-establishing and making arrangements for the South African defence industry to wake up, so that we can then make sure that we get from the defence an injection into the economy of South Africa.

So, I would not agree that the exercise was futile. I would agree, that as a sovereign state, we can listen to what the other powers are saying. What the hon member should be saying is that perhaps, the insistence of a little corner country run by blacks, insist that it is sovereign, insist that it would have a voice, insist that it would not stop, will honour its responsibility and its bilateral relations with the US, the UK, with Germany, with everybody else, but will be able to say that we are sovereign. Thank you.

Question 1:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, the response to this question is no. We will not issue regulations that will exclude the genuinely qualified military veterans. Hon members will remember that in December, we send the regulations for these pension to Parliament and we have since publicised them. We have since received comments

from a variety of military veterans from associations across the country and individuals. We are looking at the merits of the comments. We are also taking them case by case to make sure that finally the views from all the constituency of Defence and Military Veterans is taken on board.

We would then want to reiterate that the current pension benefit that as defined in the 2011 Military Veterans Act is a noncontributory benefit. It is meant to cushion destitute military veterans who had never had an opportunity to contribute to any kind of pensions during their lifetime because of their circumstances.

Now, the challenge that has come to us is that you do have former members of the Transkei, Venda, Bophutatswana and Ciskei, TVBC, and the Cape Cop Collards who have also come to us. We are also aware that there are some members the old SA Nation Defence Force, SANDF, who are destitute. So, we are saying that we are taking all these inputs together case by case and we would within our powers will make sure that the military veterans are not changed and are looked after.

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you for the response. I think we will all agree that it is a disgrace that in terms of the Military Veterans Act of 2011, the provision was then made for these benefits and two as the Minister puts it, be a cushion for those who cannot afford and those who are in those position. However, it is still a shame that up until this date those pensions are not being paid and there is no budget for those pension benefits.

Hon Minister, and then my question therefore is: I hear what you are saying that no statutory forces or military veterans excluded. What is worrying is that the regulations published and signed by yourself, on 7 December 2022, does have item 22a2 that does say that the only military veterans eligible for these benefits under these regulations are nonstatutory forced if one goes and look at this definition of a military veteran in terms of the Military Veterans Act of 2011, it is however seen that the military veterans are defined as statutory and nonstatutory, including all sides of the South African liberation war and who served under the union of the Defence Force and who became members of the SA National Defence Force.

I would then want to ask the hon Minister if she is saying that nobody would be excluded that are destitute and deserve this benefit that she will then amend the draft regulation as was signed and published by herself? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chairperson

and the hon Wessels, indeed we are looking into the Military Veterans Act of 2011. You may be aware that we are looking at the amendments to that effect. I have also just said that that Act and the pension that we are looking at as the noncontributory.

Now when people were integrated in 1994, and these were compiled and people, there was an understanding that all the fighting forces that we were integrating that were bringing their people with their packages into the now new SA National Defence Force. The understanding was that anybody who came from the former statutory forces TVBC and SANDF will be coming in with their former contributions and that those would then continue within the now new ones. Those who came from the former nonstatutory had nothing and had not been any. They had been putting their lives on the line. Therefore, primarily you

would then start saying: How do I equate these military veterans?

However, when we started distributing houses, we did become aware, at least in the North West that there were other soldiers who did not come from the former nonstatutory who needed housing and they were given houses. That is why we are saying, we need to be looking at this. However, we also must say that one of the things that we are looking very carefully at in the amendment is that we would not go away from policing the means test. In other words, it does not matter whether I am from the nonstatutory if I can afford, if I can live I must not occupy a house that can go to somebody who really needs it. That is why we will continue to do that. However, we will be relooking at this. [Time expired.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, may I take the question on behalf of the hon Legwase.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Yes you may.

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister; may you update us on the development around the Amendment of the

Military Service Act in clarifying the issue of the definition and benefits of military veterans? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, it sounds like a new question, however, let us go for it.

Hon member, it is true that we are looking at that. And just as by the way because I must also come back to a little point which I forgot to respond to.

It is that in fact when I became the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans I was assured that there was a budget line for this particular pension. That is why we were very clear that we can backdate this pension.

Now, we are also looking within the department that I lead. However, I can say that the department is thus far dysfunctional and therefore, the distribution towards the people who really need the benefit has not gone according to them. That is why you would have found that they are busy trying to fix that. It is housing, health services and education that we think are the most crucial towards the

military veterans. So, we have been looking at that and the budget seeing at the budget how we can prioritise and reprioritise. We are also looking at the skills set that sits within the department that has been making us unable to go out there to reach out to the community that we are supposed to search.

You will also notice that we are also taking a stand as the department, the Deputy Minister and myself, when it comes to the Department of Military Veterans. We are hoping to come back to Parliament and say indeed the processes that we have started to fix the department is on track. However, even as we fix, we want to ensure that the veterans do not suffer.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, your draft military veterans regulations dated 7 November 2022, excluded statutory forces on the Department of Military Veterans that appear and it is not in compliance with the intentions of the Military Veterans Act to provide pension benefits to all military veterans. Such exclusions may be challenged in the court of law and further delay the rolling out of pension which is already delayed by 11 years since the enactment of the Act.

Hon Minister, when will you officially withdraw these regulations and replace them with the constitutional one and the Military Veterans Act compliance and roll-out the pension benefits to the military veterans? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

Chairperson, I have said that I have been taking inputs from the inputs from the public, both military and nonmilitary. I am not going to withdraw those regulations that we send here. For I have said that we will update them. Depending on what we found out from there. We have already been picking and hearing from the Cape Cop Collards. We are making sure that whatever it is we will put as the final regulations will actually meet with them.

However, when you take a decision that you are going to spend, you must also be very clear that you have the resources to cover those issues. So, should not we be taking a look at those who are desperately in need of the pensions and proceeding to give them that? So that when you take a bigger chunk you are able to continue. So, if we withdraw it means we really want to delay. We want to proceed with what we have and give the military veterans who are destitute and have nowhere

to stay their benefits. We want to say that we will continue and do what we think it is in the best interest to the men and women who really need this. We are also and I am reiterating that it is not all military veterans those who can afford will not pass the means test and therefore they shall be excluded whether they come from the nonstatutory or the statutory forces of the past. They will be.

Now, a member of the SA National Defence Force who retires now and has been in the SA National Defence Force, that is where I will be going, because I want to know what their contributions for the years that they before they come and join SANDF for instance or in the Bophutatswana Defence Force - what happened to their contributions and what happened to their leave? For you cannot ... [Time expired.]

Question 21:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson,

the question wants to know what our plans are. Maybe the reason we want to grow the South African defence industry is because without it, the SA National Defence Force is in disarray. Our capabilities are down. We cannot depend on Treasury to give us all the money that we need.

Our IP has flown. However, even if our IP had not flee, we do need to bring in more resource and more money as a country into the defence industry for innovation, for upgrades and for whatever needs to be done.

We know that a healthy South African defence industry contributes even more than the other parts of the economy towards the fiscus. When you look at the records of the LCACC, the volumes of trade, even if it is a small etiquette, usually contributes more.

So, we are running around the world. We are creating partners between countries. We are also running around the world company-to-company that ask us to mediate, and we do so. We have also said to the South African defence industry, whatever it is a product that they have, as we go across the countries, like all the other Ministers of Defence, we shall carry their pamphlets and we shall be their marketers.

We have also said that whatever they produce, we shall be their guinea pigs as the SA National Defence Force. We shall be their face. We shall use the South African products because

with a rand that circulates around South Africa, we can create more jobs.

So, we are interested in creating more jobs. We are interested in attracting young people into the defence industry – not only to carry arms, but to actually think about the weapons of the future in the defence of this country.

If the defence industry does not come to the party, the quality and the fight about sovereignty that I have been talking about means nothing because a country that cannot defend its integrity and sovereignty is nothing.

Mr V C XABA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, I agree with you that capable defence industry is a key part of any country’s sovereign capabilities. It provides the ability to sustain equipment, the service and the level of strategic independence. The challenges facing Denel threaten not only the defence industry, but also the defence capabilities.

We note and welcome the turnaround strategy that the Denel Board has developed to restore Denel and ensure that it assumes its catalytic role in the defence industry. In view of

your positive response and a call for the realignment between Denel, on one hand, and the Department of Defence and Armscor, on the other hand: What progress has been made in responding to the call to migrate Denel from the Department of Public Enterprises to the Department of Defence?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, I have

tasked Armscor to come up with a strategy that will not only unite, but also sharpen the skills within Armscor itself, and also be that salesperson on behalf of the defence industry. We have also said to them we want a survival strategy for the South African defence industry. We have said that more money must go into research and development.

We have started talking to the CSIR also to come to the party also, so that we bring all the legs together. We have also been challenging universities that are in technology in the country to work together so that we become this strong network that will create a survival net of all our resources. We are also working on a proposed property Act, so that we now begin to protect the IP of the South African defence industry and the defence force. The SA National Defence Force also has credibility where it has contributed.

We have approached Cabinet. I am not sure whether...

Sesotho:

Ke a bora?

English:

Okay! We also raised the issue of the migration of Denel, so that it just stops being a business entity and begin to do what it was established to do. Denel was not set up to be just any other business entity and to be treated like that. It was a strategic group of companies under the umbrella and supervision of Armscor and the Department of Defence, making sure whatever happens, the SA National Defence Force was well catered for. That is where we want to take it!

However, under Denel and for what we need, we are also looking at project Hoefyster and so forth. [Time expired.]

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chair, Minister, we have defence industry companies with advanced technological and defence pre-mission equipment capabilities, all of who want to assist us to rebuild our defence capabilities, to grow our economy and to create jobs. Some companies with majority shares owned by

military veterans can do an excellent job to maintain and upgrade our old pre-mission equipment. Some are suppling the world with the most advance technologies and pre-mission equipment. What are the reason that you have agreed to a MOU with a Chinese company, Poly Technologies, PolyTech, in Dubai, when the same if not better, are available from our own defence industry? What is your message then to our defence industry who are desperately in need for similar support from you?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Marais, in

Dubai we met South African defence industries. In Dubai, we sorted out the differences amongst the defence industry, with Armscor, amongst themselves and with ourselves. In Dubai we teamed up! I want to put it here categorically that there were times when I actually forced companies, which were interested in doing business with SA National Defence Force, which refused to sign up with Denel because of its past history, to do so.

Therefore, merging companies and creating partners with other entities out there is also a source of expansion for the South African defence industry. We will soon be invited to go and

look at India and to start a plant in partnership with them. Should we say no because we are protecting an industry here, or should we take an industry from South Africa and go to partner is with another country? That is the exercise that we are doing. We are not going to throw away the industry here at home. We need it to survive as SA National Defence Force.

We also need them to grow to feel the challenges. You are right: I, actually, was in one of the vehicles which went. I marvelled at the improvements other countries have done after the IP had flown out of here. South African out there: Are they addressed? I addressed South African companies who are allowing us not to have the OEMs. Therefore, before we end financial year – we aim to have the South African Defence Industry Indaba by the end of March, where we can begin to get everybody back again, focusing, fighting together, seeing opportunities, and ... [Time expired.]

Question 50:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson,

hon Shelembe has asked if we have been informed about the housing that has gone to people who should not be getting that. I have not been formally informed. I am aware that the

department of housing in the Free State came across cases of alleged, I’ll use the word, hijacking of houses meant for military veterans. We are tightening up the screws.

One of the things that we have started doing, even within the department itself, is to insist that no member who is in the employ of the Department of Military Veterans — him, her or the relatives — will actually get any housing from us. They are meant for military veterans there.

We are also going to clean up. However, we are also very clear that only the people who have their bona fides cleared up and who have their records known to the department can access the housing. So, we are going to deal with housing fraud and if any member of staff in the Department of Military Veterans is found — they were told last week — they will face a disciplinary committee, DC, and they will exit the department.

So, we are going to clean up in terms of that and we intend to make sure that the houses are of a standard that befits military veterans. We will make sure that the military veterans themselves do not abuse this benefit, because we are also aware that some people have received a second and third

house. So even as we want to deal with ensuring that military veterans are covered in terms of housing, we do not want the military veterans themselves to abuse this benefit. Thank you, ma’am.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Minister, the Military Veterans Act and its regulations clearly stipulate that a military veteran who has been convicted of rape, murder, robbery, theft or high treason committed after
27 April 1994 and sentenced to imprisonment for a period exceeding five years without the option of a fine, is disqualified from receiving any benefits provided for in the Act and its regulations.

Now, Minister, given that the Department of Military Veterans has already allocated houses to military veterans who were not vetted, what action are you going to take should it happen that those unvetted military veterans do not qualify to benefit from those houses?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Shelembe is

right. Unless a military veteran has applied for and had that

record expunged, they do not qualify. This also applies to the regular forces.

What we have not been consistent in doing in this country is to go after rogues, whether they are in the military or in public administration. We do not intend to allow them to continue. That is why vetting is important for us so that we exclude those who do not qualify or who no longer qualify, and so that we can then deal with issues of fraud.

As I stand here, I do not want to say this is the action that we will take, where we find that a member is occupying and should not be occupying. We will look at the legalities and we will take appropriate action. However, I can assure you that with our eyes open, conscious that the person is committing a crime of fraud, we shall not allow it.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Hon Chairperson, may I kindly switch off my video, with your permission?

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Yes, you may.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The process of providing benefits to military veterans will always be a complex one. However, hon Minister, the positive progress registered in providing benefits to military veterans, as led by the then Deputy President, is noted.

My question is as follows. What measures will be put in place to update the military veterans’ database to ensure a seamless process of providing benefits to military veterans?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson,

the vetting process led by Gen ... [Inaudible.] ... is in place. What happened is that, that process was deliberately disturbed but it has to continue. What we need to do is to enforce the requirements ... that all the veterans meet the standards. It does not matter whom I know and whom I relate to. If I do not qualify, I do not qualify. That is the end of it.

We want to make sure that the veterans get their benefits. If we have a budget line, we must just stick by why we are going to go back to Treasury. Treasury has given us an allocation for pensions. Let the members get allocations. Treasury says

that we must now ... We are beginning to look at the beneficiaries — the wife, the descendants. We are beginning to do that so that we can cover the veterans as far as we can.

We are questioning some of the benefits that are coming to the fore. I would rather build houses for military veterans than give them iPads. I would rather see them filling their stomachs, looking dignified and looking after their children if they are deceased, than see them carrying expensive foods. Therefore, we are looking at that.

We are also making sure that communication between the veteran himself or herself and the department is dynamic, and that is why training has been allocated. Reskilling has been given to those military veterans who are young enough. If reskilling enables these military veterans to get beyond the restrictions of the capped amount, then it may free us to look after an even bigger group of veterans, because they will exit this.

We have also gone into partnerships with other departments, like Agriculture and so on and so forth, to make sure that we can actually line up opportunities and ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, order! I request members to stand and wait for the Chair and the mace to leave the Chamber. That concludes the business of the day and the House is adjourned.

The House adjourned at 18:50.

 

 

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