Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 16 Nov 2022


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary

The House met at 15:00.

House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before we proceed, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly due the resignation of Mr H S Gumbi has been filled by the nomination of Mr M Bond with effect from 10 November 2022. Where is Mr Bond? You are welcome.

Hon members, I am not done. The vacancies which occurred due to the resignation of Mr C M Fry, Ms S P Kopane and Mr J W W Julius have been filled by the nominations of Mr T A Le Goff, Ms K L Khakhau and Ms W R Alexander with effect from 10 November 2022, respectively. The members had made and subscribed to the oath in the Speaker’s Office. You are welcome to the National Assembly.


Question 806:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thanks Chair, for the nomination ... [Laughter.] ... Hon members, the Auditor- General, AG, is empowered by its own Act to take legal action where practical against auditees. The Act prescribes that the audit fees owed to AG due to distressed auditees may be defrayed to either the National Treasury or provincial Treasuries.

In the past, the National Treasury has settled the auditee fees on behalf of distressed auditees. In the last financial year, National Treasury paid R63 million on behalf of distressed auditees. In the financial year 2020-21 again, we paid R70 million and R140 million to the AG. A budget of R72 million in 2022-23 was allocated for this purpose. For 2024-25, one hundred and twenty-eight million has been allocated for this purpose.

The National Treasury is of the view that the current funding model of the AG is appropriate for its business and that the AG should consider the possibility of billing its clients in advance to ensure that services it renders are paid for. It is also important to indicate that the AG has a stable financial position as the current assets of R1,6 billion are sufficient to cover current liabilities of R837 million when they become due. The resultant net working capital is R817 million and the AG has received cash receipts from auditees of R4,4 billion during the year. I thank you, Chair.

Mr O M MATHAFA: Thank you, House Chair, thank you, Deputy Minister for the response. In welcoming the comprehensive response, particularly the figures indicated, the likelihood is that the defaulting auditees will be in the local sphere of government with Treasury having identified 43 municipalities in financial crisis and deploying resources to remedy the situation. The question therefore is: are there any tracking mechanisms in place to ensure that those municipalities assisted with the audit fees are implementing the recommendations by the Office of the Auditor-General considering that the audit outcomes are one of the six priority areas in the restoration of the financial health of the identified 43 municipalities under financial and service delivery crisis? Thank you very much, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chair, we don’t have adequate capacity as National Treasury to follow up on every audit plan by all municipalities. However, we make sure that those that are disclaimed are followed up including providing capacity-building programmes to them. We also work closely with SA Local Government Association, Salga, to build programmes to support municipalities that have challenges in so far as financial management. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Thank you, House Chair, would the Minister agree with the following statement: the problem is not the funding model of the Auditor-General South Africa, the problem is the nonpayment of the Auditor-General South Africa fees by state-owned entities that are mismanaged and are a massive burden on the fiscus and on taxpayers? If state-owned enterprises, SOEs, were run by fit-for-purpose professionals and not by cadre deployed individuals who are not adequately qualified for the positions, the payment of Auditor-General South Africa fees would not be a problem.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: I think it is a yes and no, yes because these SOEs are not the same. It is true that in the recent past, many of these entities were not managed properly. This Administration has been undertaking measures to make sure that appropriate people are appointed in boards.
Those boards are also making sure that they appoint appropriate managers to manage those SOEs. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAK EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I call them payment delinquents. Its either they don’t want to pay or they don’t pay within 30 days. You can see in this particular case that they expect the books to be audited but they don’t want to pay. I must agree that we do have legislation in place. However, these people repeatedly, year in and year out, are found wanting in that they don’t pay.

You spoke about payment in advance. Perhaps that’s the way to go. Let’s be honest about it, if that happens, someone else is going to suffer. Obviously, in this case, it will ultimately be the people that suffer. What is going to happen - like in

the case of Eskom, when they did not want to pay, Eskom wanted to switch off, there was an uproar. If they don’t want to pay the Auditor-General or if you insist they pay in advance and they don’t want to pay, what is Treasury going to do about it, Deputy Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: As a general point, it is important as society to encourage the culture of payment because this seems to be a culture which is pervasive in our society. There are instances where municipalities – just to illustrate the point about the culture of payment which is pervasive in society, including our state institutions – are not paid by our own government departments and many of them are beginning to take action to enforce payment of what is due to them. Amongst other things, that municipalities are beginning to do is to switch off the services or discontinue providing service – to use your word – to delinquent people who don’t want to pay.

In so far as the AG is concerned, we think that making sure that people pay in advance will help us to identify the risk at an early stage so that we intervene in those municipalities and entities that may claim not to have the money to pay.

That’s one measure that we are undertaking and we are very confident it will bear some fruits. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair and Deputy Minister, the ACDP is deeply concerned about the amount owed to the AG in audit fees. A unique feature distinguishing the AG from other Chapter 9 institutions is its fiscal independence and the financial resources it raises through these fees are supposed to immunise the AG from budgetary pressures and political interference. Clearly, the independence is compromised by the dept. In addition, we now see the AG is increasingly being taken to court by state entities which do not agree with the findings, with the Road Accident Fund, RAF, being the case in point. That delays the tabling of financial statements and adds to the financial pressures facing the AG. Does the hon Deputy Minister share the view that accounting officers should be held personally liable where state funds are wasted on such court challenges, particularly where courts rule against the state entities involved given the financial pressures experienced by the AG? It obviously depends on what the court says about the conduct of the state entity in the case, and would obviously not be applicable in all cases.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: We take a dim view on entities that take the AG to court. It is for this reason that we continuously engage different entities to discourage them from taking the AG to court. All they need to do is to be held accountable and answer to all the questions that the AG ask from time to time. It is counterproductive in our view to take the AG to court. It is for this reason that with regard to the RAF, we had conversations with the department to make sure that that matter is not resolved through court, but through answering what the AG has been asking. Thank you.

Question 809:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon the Minister? The hon the Minister of Communications? [Interjections.] Is she there? Is she on there? Yes, hon Macpherson?

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, Rule 138 (3) specifically says that a Minister may authorise his or her Deputy Minister to reply to a question directed at that Minister provided the Deputy is also competent to be able to do so. Has the Minister in fact directed that or given the Table information that the Minister will not be available?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, if I had that information I would have said it. On the document that I have is that the Minister will respond from the virtual platform.

Ms V PAMBO: Chairperson, the Minister is on the platform. I think she is struggling with the ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Thank you, Mr Pambo.

Ms V PAMBO: The Minister of Communications can’t operate it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntshavheni, please unmute yourself.

Ms V PAMBO: She can’t do it. The Minister of Communications is struggling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, hon Pambo.

Ms V PAMBO: But we can see she is struggling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, please? Okay, let’s take the next question. [Interjections.] We will
... She is there but ... Is the host able to unmute the Minister? Okay, no problem, Minister Ntshavheni, those who can call, please call her. In the meantime ... Hon Macpherson and hon Chief Whip please let me say this, hon Ntshavheni, she will be assisted if she has got problems. In the meantime, we go to the next question. We will come back to her.

Question 833:


hon members, I just want to remind, hon Mileham, that the National Energy Crisis Committee is chaired by the President. So, the closest Minister to answer this question is the Minister in the Presidency. And not unless you want me to give generality of the energy space. So, my answer is, this is a committee chaired by the President and the closest Minister to deal with that question is the Minister in the Presidency.

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chair. On a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Ntlangwini.

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: With all due respect Chair, we put in our questions on time and for the Minister to come here to this House and lament that this question belongs elsewhere, he could have at least taken the courtesy way before the time and tell us that as Members of Parliament that this question doesn’t belong to him and that he will let another person answer it. But for him to simply ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, we heard you. Hon member I think you made your point. No, no, hon member, I heard you. I heard you. Don’t do that. I heard you from the beginning. Hon Macpherson you had your hand up. Oh, the Chief Whip? Yes, hon Gwarube?

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, don’t do that. I heard you from the beginning. Hon Mcpherson, you have your hand up. The chief Whip. Yes, hon Guarube?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, in accordance to the Rules, I mean, possible Oral Questions are submitted 10 days before a Minister is expected to come and answer them.
And so, if the Minister had an issue with the question ...

Excuse me, can we respect one another. If the Minister had an issue about whether on his capacity to be able to answer the question he should have flag that. And now we can’t be in a situation in which members have put in the question that he can’t answer. In addition to this House, Chair, the Minister sits on the committee. This is why the member Mileham has submitted the question. And so, we ask that you rule on the matter that the question was allowed to stand and the Minister must answer.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I hear what you are saying. But let me say at this stage I am not going to dictate to the hon Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy to respond to the question. Wait, I am talking. You are intimidating me, hon Macpherson, because after that ruling I don’t expect any talks on this matter anymore. You want to come in before? Okay, come in because I ask for your opinion and you pointed to your Chief Whip.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Rule 137 says that the question submitted for oral reply must be placed on the Question Paper for reply six days prior to the question day. The Minister and his office knew that this question was coming. They had nothing to say to it. Did not subject to it and now they come to the

House and object it. The fact is that the Minister sits on the very committee that he refused to talk about. So, this question is absolutely in line with his ability to be able to answer. He then needs to be taken to the Rules committee.
That’s what we ask you to rule on. Is to take the Minister to Rules Committee because he refuses to answer the question that he sits on the committee on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank you very much. I think you know the Rules very well. And we said it before that any matter that has got to do with things like that we have Rules for such. So, we know that the Rules Committee is one of the paths that will deal with it. I am closing this matter at this stage and I am saying that I am not going to force the Minister to respond to the question.
No, no I have stopped now. No, no, no, I am done. We will deal with it from the way we know our processes. Thank you very much. We heard all of you. And we will deal with it accordingly. Thank you. Hon members, may I please proceed. No, no, honourable I said it. No, no, we are not going back to this question.

Ms V PAMBO: Chair, we don’t understand what you say. What does we will deal with it mean. What does that even mean.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It means that ... Who is talking now without being recognised? Hon members, we have Rules and we have updated our Rules on this. And we know that what should happen if things like this happened. So, that’s why I am saying the processes will be followed. I am not now going to talk about the processes in here. Please, listen to me when I say that. No, not on this matter. I am closed.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chairperson, hon Faber.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Faber, on this matter I am done.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I have ruled on it. You accept my ruling unless you are coming with a new matter.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I need to know, did you rule on what hon Macpherson says. ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): No, I didn’t respond to you. Hon Faber, I didn’t ask you to come in. You do that again; you will be out of the platform. Okay, no I am not

going ... I set a new matter. You said you have a new matter. Please, proceed.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, on a question of clarity then. Are you suggesting that an Inter-Ministerial Committee chaired by either the President or the Deputy President that no member who sits in that committee can then speak about it? Is that what you are ruling ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): Hon member, we have processes. Come in, Baba.

Mr B A RADEBE: Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): I am coming to you. I saw when your hand was up. I know how you follow each other, even yourself, stop intimidating me. Proceed hon member.

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, first of all, you have already made a ruling. So, it means that your ruling cannot be challenged here. If there are members who have a beef they can follow the appropriate procedure that must be led on that particular regard.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I have to listen to members. I will respond. Hon Kwankwa?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, firstly, I think we should admit that here Parliament is at fault in the sense that generally in the past when you ask a question which was not supposed to go to a specific Minister they will come back and say this question should be directed to a particular Minister. But now Minister Mantashe said he can answer in broad generalities in respect to this question. Maybe, we should entertain that aspect rather than allowing him to deal with this specific question which he believes is not supposed to be directed to him as a way forward.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, you are the last one, honourable. No!

Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, if you may allow me to sit. These mics are not conducive for tall people. Chair, it’s just two things. The first issue, hon Kwankwa, has covered me because the Minister qualified his statement of disowning the question to say but if we want general responses. So, I would either imagine that before you make the ruling you would have come back to the Minister.


Usihlalo ungapha, ngimgcine engala, angazi noma sekukhona ongalana na?


But the second point, Chair, I would request that you are clear in your ruling because if you say you would deal with it that’s vague. I think we need to leave here understanding which aspect it is that you are taking to the Rules Committee so that if there are additions we would like to make on the process you want to embark on we do so. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I thought that was the last hand. I am not taking any more hand. May I please respond to say the last part where you are saying the Minister said he can respond to the question broadly that’s when I didn’t hear because probably you were making noise. So, if the Minister can do that to answer broadly as he said that’s what he can do I will allow him. Thank you.

Question 833:


that hon Mileham doesn’t like the generalities, he likes specific answers. However, let me give him the generalities,

this committee does meet. I don’t keep a record of how many times, when and what, I’m a member of that committee. What action they will take, the first thing is that in that plan of the President you’ll recall that the most important aspect that was put as number one was the issue of addressing a maintenance and servicing of Eskom units. Therefore, didn’t that we put our emphasis on that was those units which about
20 000 megawatts that are not decommissioned, but give us no energy cause a gap between what is connected and what is available.

Therefore, we thought that if we focus energy on servicing those units we would go a long way and resolving the issue of load shedding. The other issue that we added there was that in the medium to long we will have to accelerate the question of generation capacity which we are doing. That’s why we released Bid Window 5, Bid Window 6 is on the way, Bid Window 7 is on the way ... [Inaudible.] ... is Bid Window 6 and Bid Window 7 we have been directed to increase the capacity that will be generated by those Bid Windows. All those actions are what we’re looking at, and every time there is load shedding, you will remember when we met at the time load shedding was at level ... [Inaudible.] ... Now, regularly it comes at level 2. What we are working for is that we must eliminate even level 2

and have no load shedding. We have the capacity to do so if you look at the connected capacity of Eskom compared to what is actually given in terms of Eskom. Thank you very much.

Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chairperson, I would remind this House that when the Democratic Alliance requested for an ad hoc committee for oversight of the National Electricity Crisis Committee of the Speaker she refused. She said that oversight of the National electricity Crisis Committee would be handled by the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources and Energy and the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises which brings me to my question. Minister, when Eskom was asked in a joint sitting of the Portfolio Committees of Public Enterprises and the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources and Energy on 27 September this year about the work of the National Electricity Crisis Committee, they informed the members of this House that they were, and I quote:

Not at liberty to disclose the information from the National Electricity Crisis Committee because it was classified as secret.

Minister, my question is this, at a time when South Africa is facing a critical electricity shortage, what could possibly be

secret or classified about government’s plans to address electricity crisis? Why is this government keeping South Africans in the dark about the work of the National Electricity Crisis Committee?


House Chairperson and hon members. Not unless I live in another country. The President released the plan in details in public, so there can be nothing secret on a document that is announced publicly. Therefore, there’s nothing secret, if Eskom talks about secrecy, I can’t answer for them. However, I know that the President released the plan publicly in an open platform for South Africans to scrutinise it. That’s what I’m talking about and all the efforts that we are putting into that plan are informed by the plan that was announced not a secret plan.

Mr P A VAN STADEN: House Chairperson, I will be asking on behalf of member Boshoff a question to the Minister. Hon Minister, does the Department of Minerals Resources and Energy and or Public Enterprises have a real crisis plan for a perfect storm when 75% or more of Eskom’s generation capacity becomes unavailable? The worst regarding Eskom experience taught us is likely to happen. Thank you, hon House Chair.


that question, hon.

Mr P A VAN STADEN: I’ll ask again, hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, does the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy and or Public Enterprises have a real crisis plan for a perfect storm when 75% or more of Eskom’s generation capacity becomes unavailable? The worst regarding Eskom experience taught us it is likely to happen. Thank you, House Chairperson.


House Chairperson. You know a title is misleading, when you are said to be a Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy and you take a major energy generator called Eskom, you put in another department, people take you as a responsible for suboptimal operation of Eskom. My understanding is that Eskom is having 45 000 megawatts connected, but at best it gives us
26 000 megawatts. Therefore, there is a gap of 22 000 megawatts that are not decommissioned, but not giving us energy. Therefore, with that capacity connected I think there can be no collapse of energy generation. However, we should actually pay attention and focus on servicing the units that

are available in Eskom connected having capacity to give us energy, and they must give us energy.

My view is that if there is still confusion of an entity that is doubtful what it should do because it is under pressure to go green then we’re going to be in darkness. I have said that on my capacity as the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy that sometimes we like what is appearing nice. You know, let me give you two pieces of information. Germany is dismantling a wind farm to expand operations of a coal mine as we are sitting here today. I can tell you that coal miners in the United States are putting pressure on President Biden to invest more on coal production. Here we say that we must leave coal. I am one of the people who says that we can have a transition, but that coal is not about just numbers, is about human being to ... [Inaudible.] ... in Mpumalanga and I can give you the names if you want them. I don’t add Standerton, I don’t add Vereeniging, I don’t add Lephalale, I don’t add New Castle, it’s just the coal belt. It’s ... [Inaudible.] ... it’s your Belfast, it’s your Caroline, it’s your Ermelo, it’s your Hendrina, it’s your Middleburg, is your Emalahleni, it’s Ogies, it’s Kriel, it’s Leslie and it’s Delmas. Therefore, if you just talk recklessly about that you will leave many people in darkness and starving.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.


Kuba singabanye aba (under general), Baw’uMqwathi, ndiyakuthanda kuba ukhankanye ncakasana laa nto wawuyithethe phaya kula nkomfa ...


... of mining and investments in Limpopo ...


 ... uphinda futhi into ubuyithethile. Xa ubuphendula phaya kudliwano-ndlebe, kubuzwa ukuba iza kulungiswa njani le ngxaki, uphendule ngelithi ...


 ... it is a function of good leadership, management and skills. In other words, implying that ...


 ... xa ingenzeki le nto, ingxaki ikwisikhokelo sika-Eskom. Bahleli njani ke ngoku aba bakwisikhokelo sika-Eskom xa besahlulwa kukwenza ezi zinto othi ...


 ... in order for us to be able to tap into the 20 000 megawatts energy which is unutilised?


Bahleli njani, kutheni besahleli phaya?



question because there’s a board in Eskom reporting to the Department of Public Enterprises, it is not reporting to the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. Therefore, that board has a responsibility to correct those weaknesses. All I can give you is just as the scientific answer. Managers can be characterised in different ways. You’ll find managers called alphas who are walking on water, and we have managers called fixers, who dirt their hands and correct mistakes. You’ll find many other characterisation of managers. If you appoint an alpha in a space where you need a fixer, you are going to discredit that manager unfairly because you are misplacing a skill to a wrong area that needs the difference skill and I think that we are grappling with that issue in Eskom and it’s not my call. It’s in the Department of Public Enterprises, there is a board in Eskom.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair and thank you, Minister. Minister, when the National Crisis Committee was announced the Minister of Police said that the greatest threat to energy sector is vandalism and organised crime. The committee also highlighted the importance of renewable energy production in combating this crisis. With these focuses in mind what security measures are being put in place to ensure that various private and state-owned renewable energy projects are protected and don’t suffer the same fate as our first concentrated solar power project at Hazelmere which cost
R25 million to produce and only had a four-year life span. Thank you.


the place of the Minister of Police and answer the security question again, that’s where the mistake is. We must ask questions to relevant Ministers to get appropriate answers, but the reality of the matter is that, you know, when you talk about renewables and many people say that accelerate renewables to rectify the weakness, I agree with that.
However, what I always explain is that if you could give a Bid Window 5 now or you give a Bid Window 6 next week, you’re not going to have no load shedding on Saturday. You are going to wait for 12 months to 18 months for that and to build the

capacity to generate energy, that’s how it works. However, this misleading assumption that if we have more Bid Windows now there’ll be no load shedding, there’ll be no load shedding in 12 months, there’ll be no load shedding in 18 months, and there’ll be no load shedding in 24 months. That’s how it works. Thank you very much.

Question 809:


you, hon House Chair. The Postbank’s mandate is to drive financial inclusion and enable meaningful economic participation of the unbanked and the underserviced people on a cost effective manner. The Postbank also drives the culture of savings and financial literacy within communities as part of its mandate. The Postbank as part of building towards a state bank is expanding its mandate or its services offerings to include lending ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntshavheni, I think you should switch off your video because your network is somehow very weak. You can switch off your video and just unmute. May be the bandwidth will be better.


audible now?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, you are. Please proceed. I will tell you if there’s something wrong.


think is on the side of Parliament, hon House Chair. On my side the network is fully available.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, proceed then.


Postbank’s mandate is to drive financial inclusion and enable meaningful economic participation of the unbanked and underserviced people on a cost effective basis. The Postbank also drives the culture of savings and financial literacy within communities as part of its mandate. And as part of building towards the state bank, the Postbank is further expanding its service offerings to include lending and bank assurance in a cost effective manner. This will allow the lower end of the market to have access to competitive lending and have channel diversification for the bank. And also to support the growth of township and rural economies.

The Postbank will further expand its services to lending of financial support to small medium enterprises, SMMEs, as part of this growing SMMEs support but also township and rural economic development. For example, during the period of the COVID-19 when the banks were given the government guarantee scheme, the banks did not want to take the risk of going to the townships and the underserviced areas and to the SMMEs who were not their clients. But the Postbank will be geared to take such opportunities offered by government to complement the service ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The last part of your statement, I think is the last sentence, we couldn’t hear.

Mr V C XABA: Yes, I confirm.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, Are you still with us? I want the Minister to respond even though she was done. Hon Minister! Hon members, I think I am going to defer the question again and ask the Minister to find a better space. We will start with the follow ups. Proceed.


Chair, the problem is on the Parliament’s side.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, don’t worry about that. I would want you to find a better space where you are. Just like now, you were well-heard. And we still have to continue with the supplementary questions.


do the last sentence and then you continue with the supplementary questions?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please.


Postbank will be geared to complement the work of government through increased access to finance for the poor using the example of the Public Credit Guarantee Schemes that the commercial banks did not take up during the COVID-19, to support SMMEs during the period of distress. The Postbank would be geared to take such opportunities and extend funding to the previously excluded. Thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We can hear you very well. Don’t shift from where you are.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, sorry, my hand is up. I rise on a point of order. The hon Minister has made an assertion that the problem is on the side of Parliament. Perhaps we must request Parliament to check that out because this is not the first time that we have had challenges when the Minister has had to respond to questions, and we have to protect Parliament and the institution, if the fault is not on our side. That is what I suggest. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mthembu, where are you?

Ms A H MTHEMBU: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, what are the ongoing linkages that will continue to exist between the Postbank and the South African Post Office be? How will such linkages contribute to the in future which intends to put SAPO in a healthier state than it finds itself today. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, proceed ... [Inaudible.] ...

No sound – network disconnected.

Question 843:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: ... [Muted.] ... exceeds at the time of the 2021 budget. This is largely due to the commodity boom which cannot be relied on over the medium-term. In 2022 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, revenue collection indeed exceeded projections at the time of the 2022 budget. We felt it is appropriate to allocate this money to narrow the deficit and mitigate some risk associated with the growing debt.

We also feel that it is important to allocate this money for service delivery which had seen additional resources provided for security forces, health, education and local amenities as well as infrastructure investment. Chairperson, any decision to move forward with the sovereign wealth fund needs to take this context into account. As the National Treasury we are of the view that the establishment of the funds should be considered at a later stage and we will continuously report to the House on the suitable models that are appropriate for us to introduce this fund. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Let me just say that even though I have the discretion powers to give you extra minutes, please, try to time to four minutes. Rule

142(3) allows us to give you extra time. However, let us stick to our minutes.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, House Chair. I like just to give a clearer context is that in this Parliament the commitments to establish a sovereign wealth fund was after the proposal made by the EFF, then was repeated by your President and by the overzealous but like largely incompetent Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition that there will be an establishment of a sovereign wealth fund.

That can be done in a fiscally neutral way. Meaning that you can top slice some of the investments which the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, and the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, have overexposure on without touching the fiscus. I don’t know why you could come here to justify the none-establishment of a sovereign wealth fund on the basis of the fiscal incapacity to do so. It looks like generally you are very scared of the financial markets, the financial system and services sector in South Africa. This is because you, yourself, as the Deputy Minister were mandated to establish a state-owned bank using African Bank as a nucleus. You have not done so.

There is a resolution of your own party on the nationalisation of the Reserve Bank. You have not done so. Are you that scared of the financial services sector that all the resolutions that are taken, including on the sovereign wealth fund, you always duck and dive and give all sorts of petty and unsatisfactory reasons as to why you cannot establish these institutions which are otherwise essential for the sustainability and growth of South Africa’s economy? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chair. We make history out of the conditions that are not of our own making. We would have loved to establish the fund. I have articulated the conditions under which made it difficult for us at that time to establish the fund. As I said that we are committed to establishing the fund, we are looking at different options at different modules. As we always do we will come back to this House and give progress report on how far we are in establishing the fund.

Yes, the issue of the state bank was not part of the question but I am not going to run away from it. The Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies, well, we missed part of what she was saying. Nevertheless, one of the things that she was saying is that we are establishing the state bank.

Making the state bank turning Postbank into the state bank. They are in the process of acquiring the license from the South African Reserve Bank. Thank you, Chair.

Ms P N ABRAHAM: Thank you so much. Deputy Minister, the long standing position of the governing party is that a sovereign wealth fund be established to deal with the ... [Inaudible.]
... shares that occur in the Mineral Resources sector and other resources sectors. Raising new sources of revenue is in our national interest and you have often stated this yourselves in order to supplement the fiscus for multiple demands. The reference to an unaffordable permanent commitment suggest that the sovereign wealth fund is off the table for now. Hon Deputy Minister, kindly share with the House the alternatives currently pursued. Thank you so much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, we all know that our fiscus it is highly constrained and the sources for revenue, as we all know, is on the tax side. The most sustainable way of generating revenue to finance what we have to finance as government is through growing the economy. It is out of the growth of the economy that we will have the material basis to generate sustainable revenue including budget surplus that we can use to establish the sovereign

wealth fund. It is for this reason that we are focusing on dealing with the supply side constraint of our economy, the supply of electricity and the telecommunication skills in order to grow our economy.

On the borrowing side, there are challenges as you all know that our public debt is R4 trillion. We cannot continue to borrow. There are limits to borrowing. Borrowing in itself it is not bad if we are borrowing to build infrastructure and support education. That is more sustainable. However, if we are borrowing to recapitalise state-owned enterprises, SOEs, that are not adding value to the economy, we will set the very same conditions that will undermine our sovereignty because we will be forced to borrow more outside. Once we are at that level our sovereignty will be gone. Unsustainable public debt has its own risks as we have always said that it crowds out public investment.

Chair, at the moment we pay R300 billion per year just to service the public debt. Again, what it also does is that it crowds out the private sector because the money that we borrow is the savings that South Africans are making. If there is not enough savings in our economy the private sector business

people will be without any capital to borrow in order for us to grow our economy. Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): For subsequent questions, which are the follow up questions, it is two minutes. Thank you.

Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, Chairperson. A sovereign wealth fund is essentially a state-owned investment fund and it needs capital to invest. Government’s loan debt will increase from R4,7 trillion to R5,6 trillion and debt service costs will increase from R332 billion to R380 billion over the medium term. Debt service costs are already the highest single expenditure item on the budget and crowds out service delivery to the poorest households. The Eskom debt transferred to the national balance sheet will add another R200 billion at least to the mountain of debt that the failing ANC government piled onto the people of South Africa.

In his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the Minister completely ignored the cost of living crisis and instead bailed out the now Transnet, South African National Roads Agency, Sanral, the R30 billion. It has apparently now agreed to finance a state bank by transferring ownership of the

Postbank from the Post Office, making the Post Office even less viable and putting 11 000 jobs at risk. The post office and to the Postbank will be requesting bailouts that the people will need to pay for. Households are unable to save whenever massive amounts of debts to repay and government is the same ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): ... hon member, your minute is long gone, you can see the watch is close to you.

Dr D T GEORGE: I have two more minutes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): No! Don’t raise your hand. What are you saying? I am talking to the hon member. Hon member, do you want to come in? Yes.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, according to the Rules it is

90 seconds for a follow up and two minutes for the member answering the question. So, he has spoken for 60 seconds he still has 36 seconds left.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): No, listen. You are on the wrong one. I don’t know which one you are talking to,

please, say it. It is one minute. Uh, there is no such. Anyway, ask the question, hon member. I have them there.

Dr D T GEORGE: Hon Deputy Minister, are you trying to launch a taxpayer funded sovereign wealth fund skillfully by a state bank for the benefit of a few politically connected ... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): To help you, hon Macpherson, it is Rule 142(5). There is no 90 seconds. I say it all the time, please, let us get used to these things. No, no, no, this side there is a Rule that allows me to give them extra time. There is no Rule that allows you to get extra time. If you want extra time from the questions that you asked is okay. We can do that through the relevant processes of the sub Rules on Rules. Hon Deputy Minister, can you, please ...

Mr W M THRING: ... House Chair.


Mr W M THRING: House Chair, hon member Thring here. Chair, if I could ask then, please, I also looked at the time for the previous speaker. The previous speaker before the speaker that

just spoke now, in terms of the supplementary question, had one minute and about 40 seconds.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): No! no, no.

Mr W M THRING: So, you gave the latitude ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): ... no, no, no. There is a watch here.

Mr W M THRING: You gave the latitude ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): ... and you can check the minutes. It won’t happen and I won’t do that.

Mr W M THRING: I am asking for you to be consistent.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): No! No, no, no. Do not come with things that are not there. They are taking minutes here. I don’t want to make a mistake like that. No! I thought you were ... no, let me not go there. It is fine, hon Deputy Minister, can you respond. I always give members who ask questions extra seconds but I have never gone to that and I

will never do it. That is why I gave him the most and that is why I had to say it. Proceed.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chair. The unfortunate thing is that members are also asking questions which are not the follow up on the sovereign wealth fund and as a result we answer them because we don’t want to be seen as running away from questions. However, I would have to be disciplined that I am not going to deal with the question on the state bank because I did try to answer that.

The intention of a sovereign wealth fund and the experiences in other countries that we have seen like the United Emirates, I think they have always been very useful because those countries they use the surplus budget that they have to deploy that money for other important economic developmental imperatives in their own countries.

I mean, Dubai, the Emirates had turned that desert into something else and they have used the surpluses that they have generated out of oil. We are constrained in our context we don’t have surpluses. Nevertheless, we said that we will have to make plans to make sure that we deal with this. On the

Eskom issue, the Minister has said that he could not announce the details of the liability solution for Eskom.

There are a number of things that we are looking at because the liability solution will be contingent upon the tariff decision that has to be taken for Eskom in December. The debt instruments that Eskom has, but also the conditions that we got to impose ourselves as National Treasury as part and parcel of providing a liability solution for Eskom. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Just to help hon Thring, hon Shivambu as the first person to ask the supplementary question has two minutes. That is where you got lost.

Mr W M THRING: Then, I retract and apologise, hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair and thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, the establishment of a sovereign wealth fund has been discussed for many years and was in fact flouted in 2020 by former Minister of Finance,

Tito Mboweni, when he suggested that we could capitalise a sovereign wealth fund with an amount of about R30 billion with a variety of possible sources such as the proceeds of spectrum allocation, petroleum, gas, or mineral rights royalties and the sale of noncore state assets.

However, these plans seem to be pushed aside when we were hit with the COVID-19 pandemic. Nevertheless, today we found our country in the midst of another pandemic with millions of people being unemployed and living well below the food poverty line and this current crisis once again highlights the need for a basic income guarantee for our most vulnerable.

Currently we are faced with situation that even if unemployment rates come down the number of those unemployed will remain the same over the next two decades. Funding the basic income grant now seems to be the main reason for delaying its establishment. Can a sovereign wealth fund not be used to speed up the process of implementing a basic income grant? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chair once more. To establish a sovereign wealth fund, we need funds. We have always come to this House to articulate how constrained we are

insofar as the funds are concerned. Like I said in the initial intervention I made that we will come back to this House to articulate and to provide progress report on what are the options we are looking at in establishing the fund. Thank you.

Question 810:



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, in Africa you are called a President. [Laughter.]


in the Pan African Parliament. My apologies. Currently, the strategic fuel fund goals 10,3 million of barrels of crude oil, a strategic fuel reserve but it is envisaged that a maximum of 6 million barrels is going to be sold to pay back Treasury the amount that was used to subsidize the end consumer on the price of fuel. So, in simple terms, what will be left will be 4,3 million barrels of crude oil.

The remaining refining capacity in the country is about

200 000 barrels a day and the remaining crude would sustain the country for 20 days. Such a fuel fund is in a process of

increasing the storage capacity for refined car petroleum. We think now because refining capacity has come down and it makes sense and logic to also have strategic stock in refined petroleum. It is expected that they will reach critical storage capacity in the next 24 months after which the period as per the allocation of funds by the national government to procure refined petroleum products. Strategic Fuel Fund would be in a position to hold refined stock in strategic fuel reserves.

Looking forward to the strategic stock of crude oil, the refining capacity now has come down and we are looking at developing strategic stock of refining petroleum.

Ms V T MALINGA: Hon House Chair, since importing crude oil without refinery capacity is unsustainable thus investment in local refineries must be encouraged, what is the status of the department’s attempt to attract private investments to improve the country’s refinery capacity and why is the government reluctant to invest local refineries if there are monetary returns to be made for investors? Thank you very much.


I am not sure what is meant by reluctance because those who

follow discussions will know that we made all the efforts to be part of reviving SA Petroleum Refineries, Sapref, but in the middle of that process Sapref was subjected to the disasters in KwaZulu-Natal. So, that is not a sign of reluctance but a sign of willingness to increase the refining capacity.

We are engaging a number of role players to build a refining capacity in the country. I can say that, though it is not conclusive. One of the issue that we raised with Saudi Arabia was the Saudi Aramco proposal of building a refinery in the country and if we succeed we will build that capacity. We k ow the risk of less refining capacity but if there is that risk you mitigate that risk by increasing storage of refined petroleum. That is what we are working on, so that we also mitigate the question of reduced refining capacity.

Ms P MADOKWE: Hon Chairperson, Minister, we were informed that the sale of the country’s reserves was being done to protect the country’s economy and also South Africans from the rising fuel prices. Despite warnings that the selling would be a temporal remedy and quite risky, leaving us with significantly less strategic fuel stocks which would leave us in very vulnerable spaces, the decision was made nonetheless. Why

after it was promised that the sale of strategic fuel stock would take care of this? Are we still urged to anticipate fuel price hikes?


directed specifically to the end consumer. I agree with you and consumers are part of the economy. That is why we subsidized energy at R1,50c a litre at that point in time. That was not generally the economy but it was the end consumer. It was a correct decision at that time because the end consumer could not afford the price. The issue is, when there are geopolitical developments that impacts on the price of any product, be it petroleum or food, it is something that does not treat South Africa as an island. It impacts on every country. So, the Russia/Ukraine crisis is the most serious factor in the increase of the prices of petroleum. We are hoping that if peace is found will normalise the price of petroleum and that is what we can do.

The last point that I want to add is that we are hoping that we can discover our own oil so that we can be able to refine our own oil and be having a say in the price of that oil.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon House Chair, Minister, what are the resource commitment has the department made towards improving the refinery storage and what are the timeframes that we are looking at so that we are able to resolve this matter speedily? Thank you.


entity in the department called the Strategic Fuel Fund and that entity is the subsidiary of Central Energy Fund. It is focussing on the issue of the movement of fuel in the country and it is well resourced, profitable, financially sound and therefore building additional storage capacity is one of the programmes that are underway currently. We are doing that because we know more storage capacity will always be needed in times of capacity. We are doing that in Saldanah and Mossel Bay next to PetroSA to increase the fuel capacity of storage and we are hoping to increasing it dramatically so that we can have capacity to store fuel.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, your former premier Sihle Zikalala has alluded to the fact that they are in discussion with Sapref and others and as you know many people blame the Russian/Ukraine War of fuel shortage all over the world.
Russia has offered us crude oil and unfortunately we do not

have the capacity to refine it and of course we can pay it with the South African rand and not in the US Dollar. Now, can you take us into your confidence? How far are these negotiations because I am not sure storage alone is a solution to the problem because there will be extensive job losses if these refineries now are shut down, others are contemplating so. So, I do not think it is an issue of storage but also to refine it as well. Thank you.


answer. I said in terms of refinery, it has come down. There are two refineries that are still operational today. We are looking at increasing the refining capacity and that is why we are talking to Saudi Aramco again to revive the discussions we had in March earlier. Coming to Sapref, there were discussions with Sapref until there were disasters. That totally destroyed Sapref and everybody who wants to take Sapref now, when you discuss with them, talks about the geographical advantage of Sapref but in terms of the capacity of the facility there is nothing. Basically, you are buying a facility with no value at this point in time but we are looking forward to increasing the refining capacity.

We also think that storage capacity is going to be very important because if you do not have refining capacity storage capacity helps to store refined petroleum. Therefore, you are talking to the market and the consumption of the product.

Question 809: Reintroduced

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntshavheni, I hope we are now going to go together. We are actually on your second question but I would like to return to Question 809 where you were still responding to hon Mthembu, I am not sure if you remember. I can allow hon Mthembu to come back and post her supplementary question. Hon Mthembu, can you please do that for us?

Ms A H MTHEMBU: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, what are the ongoing linkages that will continue to exist between the Post Bank and the South African Post Office, Sapo? How will such linkages contribute to the Post Office of tomorrow’s strategy ... [Inaudible.] ... to put Sapo in a healthier state than it finds itself today? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.


House Chair, Post Bank and Sapo will continue to share

infrastructure, with the exception of the bank’s infrastructure that is regulated by the Banks Act. In this regard, their relationship will be governed by the co- operation and service level agreements.

In terms of what we are doing to reposition Sapo as a logistics and business targeting in particular the poor and small businesses who will greatly benefit from the small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, financing and insurance, Post Bank will be extended to have a one-stop-centre for them to get financing and insure their packages. If you recall, when you go post your valuable packages there is insurance that is required and all those things. They can then get that insurance there because majority of our SMMEs, in particular the ones who do businesses from rural areas, do not have insurance for their goods that they sell to people when they dispatch them with courier services. It is for that reason that the relationship will work better, and Post Bank, as a bank with expanded services, will be able to extend to the clients of Sapo who will also in turn become clients of the Post Bank. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. You are now very clear. Thank you very much. Hon Pambo?

Mr V PAMBO: House Chair, given the lack of control measures within the Post Bank as reported by the Auditor-General, AG, which have essentially led to bank cards, in particular the South African Social Security Agency, Sassa, beneficiary cards, being stolen and leading to the Post Bank being defrauded, what control measures have been put in place to ensure that Post Bank does not experience this fraud again? Thank you, House Chair.


Chair, hon Pambo will recall that when the AG presented that report to the portfolio committee the AG also indicated that they are working closely with the department and the Post Bank on those improvements, and that there is work that has been done already in terms of the action plan to address those findings to make sure that those controls are in place. Those controls must be in place before the Post Bank is licensed, and the Post Bank is working with the Prudential Authority on those plans.

Hon Pambo will recall that the AG indicated that the extra audit they did on the Post Bank was at the request of the Minister to make sure we strengthen the weaknesses and those controls and that now we have a fully-fledged board as

approved by Cabinet with no objections from the Auditor- General SA and the Prudential Authority. In addition, the Post Bank has started mechanisms to improve their ICT infrastructure which was very old because it was the Post Office infrastructure and not meeting required standards by the Banking Association. Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Minister, considering your own strategy to implement information technology modernisations at the bank and considering that it suffered a series of cyber-attacks resulting in the loss of funds, what infrastructure, in so far as ICT is concerned, will the bank be undertaking to improve its systems to ensure that the bank functions as effectively as other licensed banks? Considering that the responsibility of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, 4IR, largely rests with your own department, and therefore this should be the flagship project of the department to demonstrate your own capabilities and abilities in so far as IT infrastructure is concerned.
Thank you.


House Chair, Post Bank has started to undertake the modernisation process, but before the modernisation was even embarked on there had to be controls that are put in place in

governance. If hon members recall that the hacks, they were not cybercrime but theft, happened in 2020 and 2021 earlier. They were flagged out but they couldn’t be traced by the Post Bank on time. However, now there are enough measures in place to know and detect even attempts to defraud. If you recall, the bank cards are in the process of being replaced to comply banking requirements and the discussions with the Department of Social Development and Sassa have also commenced and I think they have been concluded.

We are aware of the responsibility to make sure that we leapfrog the Post Bank to be competitive in terms of technology, and there is a full roadmap that will be shared with the portfolio committee when it is finalised but in an environment that protects the commercial interest of the Post Bank. Thank you.

Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, irregular expenditure at Post Bank rose by R118 million in the 2021-22 financial year and the state owned entity failed to reach its priority target of acquiring a banking license. According to the Auditor-General the inappropriate spending resulted from services that were procured without contracts in place and non-adherence to procurement processes as well as the failure

of having sufficient consequence management efforts and no internal processes established to deal with consequence management cause the escalation of irregular expenditure.

In the light of the above, does the Minister not think it prudent to remedy these internal administrative and financial inefficiencies before attempting to obtain a banking license? If yes, then how and by when? If not, why not? Thank you.


House Chair, indeed the irregular expenditure rose and all the weaknesses were pointed out as I have indicated earlier when I was responding to the question by hon Hlengwa. Those irregularities were picked up by a special audit that was requested by the Minister from the Auditor-General in terms of the ICT environment but also the governance environment. At the time when Post Bank had to be moved there was a moratorium placed on them because they did not have a fully-fledged board. Until recently, the Post Bank had a board of only three members which did not constitute a full board. In addition, the Post Bank did not have what we call competent officials to do the governance and they did not have a structure that was fully compliant with a banking structure. We needed to then allow the AG to point us to the ... [Inaudible.] ... and also

work on improvements. That is why I have announced that the Post Bank board was appointed by Cabinet and they took effect from 1 October 2022 as part of remedying all those weaknesses that were shared with the portfolio committee and are in the audit report and the annual report of the Post Office as part of the plan to make sure that by the time the Prudential Authority evaluates the license application of the Post Bank everything that is of concern has been addressed and we are on course.

Just to give comfort to the hon members, Post Bank continuously meets with the Prudential Authority to assess the progress. There is an indication of satisfaction with the progress that has been reached so far from the Prudential Authority’s side. We have developed a full roadmap of how we are going to satisfy the conditions as set by the Prudential Authority for the Post Bank to meet the requirements of a bank. Thank you.

Question 822:


House Chair, there has been a total of 258 reported burglary incidents at the SA Post Office, Sapo, branches. I must indicate that as of 1 October 2022, the SA Social Security

Agency, Sassa, grant payments have been taken over by the Postbank, and the necessary arrangements have been put in place to ensure that if there are burglaries or anything that will interfere with the dispensing or disbursing of grants at the post offices, the beneficiaries of the Sassa grants can be redirected to the ATMs and retail partners of the Postbank.
Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Chair, hon Minister, at the heart of the disbursement of the Sassa grants is of course the fact that the majority of South Africans rely on a functional post office and Postbank as you now add the rider. So one of the major issues that need to happen is the issue of access, but at the same time, you are rationalising offices and closing them down. So whilst there are the limitations of burglaries, on the other hand, is the limitation of access to these offices, and the fact that the roll-out of the cards which will ensure that people access funds at the ATMs in itself is a problem.

So what action steps then are you following to deal with the technical glitches that lead to recipients of the Sassa gold cards being unable to withdraw their funds, and what steps are the Sapo taking to prevent technical glitches affecting grant

recipients withdrawing funds, and further, what is the update for Sapo taking the update on their computers and technologies at the branches? All in all, the questions I'm putting are one, It's about the technological capabilities and innovations of the post office ...


 ... manje o-Standard Grade vele bazodonsa ngodizili kodwa ngiyamuthemba uNgqongqoshe ukuthi uzokwazi ukuyiphendula le mibuzo.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hlengwa, no, you don’t do that.

Mr M HLENGWA: I withdraw, Chair. My apologies. I withdraw that. I apologise.


Chair, although the questions were asked as it relates to the Sapo, I'm going to assume that given that it is Postbank that has taken over, the same questions will apply. We have lifted the moratorium on IT procurement because there was also a moratorium that was placed on the procurement of IT

infrastructure until governance was in place to avoid fruitless and wasteful expenditure.

The moratorium on IT procurement, in fact, on all procurement and the moratorium on the Postbank has been lifted for them to be able to procure and upgrade their equipment. I'm happy to announce that there is sufficient progress including moving the Postbank data centre fully to the cloud so that you cannot have the attempts to then hack or breach the security at the data centre, and or whilst in the process, the data centre of Sapo is going to be upgraded to make sure that it also continues to serve as we're discussing the modalities of how that would be done. The upgrade of the technology infrastructure is fully underway, including the replacements of the card. If you recall, the cards were not fully compliant with the requirements of the Banking Act. That's why the technical glitches continue to come through, and as I've responded earlier, the replacement will take place soon.

We'll still share with the portfolio committees details of not only the branch strategy of Postbank but also the roadmap of Postbank being fully compliant with the portfolio committee, including the ICT part, which is the major part of it, and in line with that, will also intend to benefit the post offices

in terms of the upgrades that will take place when we prepare for the Postbank branches.

Therefore, the problems with the Sassa beneficiaries that are related to the cards and the technical glitches are a temporary measure. I don't think it'll take us more than six months to be fully compliant. Thank you.

Mr T T GUMBU: House Chairperson, hon Minister, criminal acts at the SA Post Office such as those of burglary and corruption carried out within are detrimental to the life of the organisation as they impact its ability to optimally render services and maintain feasibility. Considering these financial challenges, what measures will be put in place to beef up security in to curb these acts from continuing as implements its SA Post Office of Tomorrow Strategy?


Ndi a livhuwa.



you, hon Gumbu for that question, as we've indicated in the portfolio committee when Sapo with the improvements of

security has seen a reduction of the incidences of burglaries that have happened and incidences that have been linked to other security glitches that related to the grants.

Even when we are transitioning, even that situation is the same at the Postbank, unfortunately, I cannot give the detail because it may compromise the security of both Sapo and the Postbank and their social grant beneficiaries, but there are full measures that are being rolled out in place to make sure that there is security, both at Sapo and the Postbank.

As it relates to Sapo, we have remained with a challenge of cash flow. We have applied and engaged with National Treasury on a number of questions on the funding of Sapo, given the challenges that the current board and management of Sapo have inherited in terms of an unviable infrastructure, and if you recall, when the Auditor-General of South Africa was putting a report on the Sapo performance for the period, indicated that there is a marked improvement in the performance of Sapo, that it is the depth of the challenges, where they come from, that does not seem to register the progress but there is significant progress when the analysis is done.

We are confident that with the measures in place and if National Treasury can accede to our request to fund Sapo we can save some of the jobs. We know we'll not be able to save all of the jobs but we can also improve the infrastructure of Sapo and can be able to render services as the Sapo of tomorrow. I'm glad to also announce that Sapo has major contracts that, if supported, Sapo will be a viable business. Thank you.

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you, Chairperson, Minister, not counting the 146 branches which have been closed as detailed in the annual report as such, those that are still open are mainly dirty, derelict, and dangerous to work at. Now, as the post office management are desperate enough to fraudulently take their workers’ medical aid contributions to try and make ends meet, where are they supposed to find the money to keep those post offices clean and make them safe, especially as you want to remove the Postbank, perhaps from the premises, and the Sassa grant payments with it? Now, the post office owes
R8,2 billion and received a disclaimer.

So, the new strategy seems unlikely to fly. Now, what have you done, if anything, to save the post offices and their staff across the country or are you only focusing today on the

Postbank being pushed to become a state bank and content to throw the post office to the wolves?


House Chair, it is interesting that when without even bringing up the matter of the state bank, the first preoccupation of my tenure in this department was to bring a plan of repositioning Sapo as a Sapo of tomorrow to refocus it from the letter business to a parcel and logistics business and a trust centre of the country. We did that without any persuasion from anybody but we knew that the post office could be repositioned.

In part of that detail without sharing the commercial details of Sapo so that we don't disadvantage them, we have started to make moves because it's not all post offices that are unprofitable. There are post offices that are very profitable, that are doing very well, but we have started to make moves to say by 1 April next year, each branch manager must be both a cost centre and a profit centre because the workers of the post office must take responsibility of whether they are making, like any other business, whether they're contributing to the performance and financial improvement of the post

office, or they are contributing to the worsening of the post offices.

That's the first move we've done and we've gone out and visited all the branches of the SA Post Office except what they call the retail centres which are the small offices, but the branches of the post offices I have visited since I joined this department as a Minister, so I don't speak from what I receive as complaints. I know the situation in each post office that I have visited. And again, in that space, we then engage to say, given that the Postbank must also take over and have its branches, which are the branches that the Postbank must take responsibility for and upgrade quickly so that we continue to give confidence to the people of South Africa.

And also we are addressing what we call the broken window syndrome because there are post offices that should not be dirty because there should be a broom to sweep them. There is water to mop them. They must be clean and people must continue to go to receive services from them, but in terms of the plan, and I've said, the post office is going to be the epicentre of the country and the trust authority of the country and they've started to position themselves as such and we're working with

them to secure that business of government in ... [Inaudible.]

... secondly, the post office ... [Time expired.]

Mr V PAMBO: Thank you very much, House Chair, Minister, aside from the physical destruction of post office infrastructure which Sapo has no plans of ever fixing, the biggest destruction has been inflicted on Sapo as an institution. In September, it was reported at the portfolio committee that Sapo had been unable to pay creditors, medical aid contributions, pension fund contributions, and the SA Revenue Service, Sars obligations, and that it would remain unable to meet those obligations unless it is recapitalised. What progress has been made towards resolving these financial problems? What steps have been taken to ensure that those responsible for incurring these costs are taken to account and for ensuring that these problems did not occur again? Thank you very much.


House Chair, the matter of the capital recapitalisation of the post office has been a priority on our part. We started to engage with the National Treasury last year in terms of what should have been the allocation, we needed an R1 billion allocation to just assist the post office to move in this

current financial aid. Unfortunately, when the budget was passed, the post office was not allocated. Post that we continue to engage with the post office and the National Treasury on the funding, hoping that the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement will then make a provision for the post office because it has to be recapitalised.

I'm on record saying the post office is not for sale and the failure of the post office is not an option. We have ... [Inaudible.] ... Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. We had engaged with the Minister of Finance and the Treasury team on finding a mechanism to assist or to recapitalise the post office during this period. I am going to the Cabinet next week to table our concerns around the matters of the recapitalisation of the post office which will then come to the portfolio committee.

I want to remind hon members it is Parliament that approves the funding, and the budget of the government and, therefore, we are pleading with the Members of Parliament to ensure that the post office is allocated. The failure of the post office will mean the exclusion of SMMEs and the rural poor from the digital economy and that cannot be an option for us. Thank you.

Question 811:

The MINISTER OF EMPLOYEMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, hon Chair. Thanks for the question, hon Mdabe. Well, as you know we had to fetch the Compensation Fund from a deep dark hole. In doing so we had to come up with all sorts of measures and part of those measures are the audit action plans. The reality is that the Fund is not yet out of the deep hole - not yet. We were very much focused and we are still very much focused on dragging it out of the hole. The implementation of the audit action plan has resulted in the restructuring of the Compensation Fund which included the expansion of the core business areas and the creation of distinct business units.
For instance, through the implementation of this audit action plan, the financial management unit achieved the stabilisation of the finance unit and the capacitation of the unit. The Fund has enhanced the system analysis program, SAP, financial systems to improve the accuracy of a number of areas of the debtors’ records and controls over various revenue processes and these include segregation of duties and development of creditors model in the claims management system to enable the production of the creditors listings to support the amounts in the financial statements. These are basic functions and these basic functions of the finance were lacing in the prior

systems and has resulted in a proper accounting of revenue from the exchange transactions.

Secondly, implementing the system that we call CompEasy to manage the claims management progress in the Fund has resulted in a number of improvements over the submissions, processing and payment of the medical aid claims in the Fund and these include the implementation of the duplicate functionality in the system to prevent payment of duplicates, implementation of the address verification service, AVS, project to validate the banking details and prevent medical invoices containing invalid entries, duplicated entries and invalid claims from entering the CompEasy system and the control over users who represent medical aid providers in order to protect the integrity of the claims in the system. In addition, to the system control, the Fund has added clinical skills which have been missing in the Fund in order to create the capacity to understand the processes and process the medical information submitted to the Fund in support of the claims. These has resulted in the creation of the medical services division with occupational health specialists and supported by the medical practitioners in each province.

We have gone further in the implementation of the audit action plan. We have also looked at the improvement of the citizens’ experience with the Fund. In this regard the restructuring of the Fund has resulted in the customer services function being separated from the claims unit in order to ensure an overall improved management of the service expectations of all the citizens. This include the expansion of the customer care unit, development and implementation of the customer relations management solution on the SAP, enhancement of the call centre tools that citizens use to engage the Compensation Fund. But of course, there are many other areas that have been created, restructured and improved, and without going into details, such as the risk management, anticorruption and integrity management, employer services technology improvement, rehabilitation and so forth. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms S W MDABE: Thank you, House Chair. Thank you Minister for the response. Minister, the development and the introduction of the CompEasy information technology, IT, system was it also part of the implementation of the audit plan? Thank you.


Chairperson. Thanks, hon Mdabe. Yes, the CompEasy was development to, not only enhance the service delivery

improvements efforts of the Fund, but also to address the control weaknesses that had been identified in the prior claims management systems that the Fund has issued. What we have done as part of our fundamental restructuring of the Fund was to look, not just at the structure, but also to look at the systems, the IT system in particular. Definitely, it was meant to do that. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms H DENNER: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Minister, I think the one thing that we have ever probably agreed upon is the fact that, indeed, the Compensation Fund is in a very deep dark hole. We know the audit action plan has been implemented. We know that skills resources have been seconded from the private sector in the form of 20 professionals and the accounting and auditing industry and you have just mentioned a number of other measures that have been implemented like the fundamental restructuring that you have just mentioned in your answer to hon Mdabe. My question to you is, Minister, aside from the outstanding information, for instance, that the Fund is yet to receive from subsidiaries with regard to investments, is the Compensation Fund as it is now ready for audit? If not, bearing the reason that I have just mentioned, why not? Thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF EMPLOYEMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, Chair. Part of what I have talked about this deep hole, and if we look at a lot of disclaimers that we have received, correctly so, have been linked to the issue of the investments of billions with the Public Investment Corporation, PIC. We have written to the PIC and to the chairperson of the PIC requesting the information in relation to our investment. We have even planned meetings them. But we have indicated that because this area was responsible for the disclaimer it would not be wise to just to rush and submit when all these issues and in particular this particular area, has not been resolved. We think that given the agreement we have had and the proposal we have made to the Auditor-General, AG, by the time we made the submissions we would be ready with this particular information. It might be part of that information or it might be the total information which we would have received because we are talking about a number of companies where the investment has been done through the PIC entity. Thank you.

Dr M J CARDO: Thank you, Chair. Minister, the Compensation Fund has been a dysfunction al disaster for the last 20 years mud by maladministration and financial irregularities. Pretty much the only functional link in the occupational injuries and diseases chain is that provided by the third party

administrators. You pay medical professionals upfront and then try to claim in spite of many failed difficulties from the Fund. Why are you so determined to destroy the one part of the system that actually works, and when will you outsource the Compensation Fund’s functions to a private sector service provider who can actually do the job?

The MINISTER OF EMPLOYEMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you Chairperson. Theirs is just to claim money and is not to run the Compensation Fund. They do not have that ability to do that.
All they know is to claim more and more money, and we will never outsource that. We don’t have any thinking of outsourcing that.

We have developed a framework that looks into all the aspects, what we call the heart elements of the strategy of the structure and the systems. We have also been looking at what we call the soft elements including the management style, the skills, the staff and doing a deep skills audit in that particular entity which is very important because we are running an insurance. We are running a financial institution when you talk about the Compensation Fund. We need a different set of these things. This also include us at looking at the culture of the work ethic in that particular institution. We

are identifying the areas that need realignment also determining the new organisational design. We have also identified what need to be changed and implement the changes - what some call change management. That need investment in the change management. Our immediate focus is to establishing the financial controls. We are not talking about outsourcing that. That is part of the privatisation agenda which some of you have always been calling for. We are not there, but we have seconded officials from the private sector who are skilled in these areas to come and work with us in terms of dealing with the challenges which are there. [Time expired.]

Mr S L NGCOBO: Thank you very much, House Chair, and thanks to the Minister. Minister, we have been made aware of incidents in which doctors are either soliciting bribes from individuals who are genuinely injured or accepting bribes from those who are not in for the issuing of the medical certificates that are required to receive any compensation from the Fund. The question is, is the department aware of this, and if not, why, and if so, please provide some details. Thank you very much, Minister.

The MINISTER OF EMPLOYEMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you, hon Ngcobo. Whenever there are allegations of corruption we don’t want to

generalise. We normally request to be given specific information so that we can investigate. There are a number of issues which we are investigating. I can tell you, hon Ngcobo, that in the Compensation Fund we have a forensic audit which is looking at the different areas as we speak. If there are doctors who are doing that we would love that we be favoured with such information so that we can make a quick follow-up.
We are ready to do that.

We have different teams which are helping us in doing that and this includes the Fusion Centre, Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and other institutions. We are also relying on the forensic auditors to deal with the issues. I am happy that one member talked about 20 years of dysfunctionality. To move out of that it is not going to be an event, but it is a process and it is going to take time. We have to be patient, but accountable. Thank you.

Question 837:


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon member and hon members. Government views the safe and security of rural communities in South Africa as a priority. The seriousness of continued acts of violence against the rural communities cannot be

underestimated. It is for this reason that the SA Police Service - working with other government departments - formulated a comprehensive and holistic strategy to support the creation of a safe rural environment and ensure food security.

Rural communities contribute to the welfare and prosperity of the country as an economically viable group. Farmers, farm workers and residents within rural communities are considered soft targets by criminals. This is due to the remoteness of farms, high market value of properties, large distances between farms and villages, and the inaccessibility to the police, as well as basic infrastructure such as roads to support service delivery. Rural police stations are often isolated and responsible to police vast areas.

The extent high levels of poverty and unemployment within our communities also create particular challenges which all of us, I know we are grappling with and trying to address. While I have said this hon members, it is important for me to also appreciate that given our fiscal situation, but also given that farm workers, farmers and rural communities are not the only people who are impacted upon by crime, we will not be able to be in a position where we can pay rebates on security

equipment which are installed by farmers. But also, it will cause challenges of inequity because some of smallholder farmers and rural communities may not even be able to access such security equipment. Therefore, not qualify for any form of rebate. But that does not mean that one does not appreciate that it is having an impact on our farming and rural communities. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr N P MASIPA: House Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]


MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Moh M G Boroto): Moroatshehla, o itebetse. Tswalela mo oleng. Tswelapele Rra.


Mr N P MASIPA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, in September, South Africa experienced one of the bloodiest month of farm murders. Minister, just using the nominal Gross Domestic Product, GDP figure for 2022 of R5,7 trillion, a 2,43% contribution of agriculture to GDP, and an estimate of
40 122 farm units as at 2017 in South Africa. A cost of a farm murder or attack to the economy was estimated at around
R3,5 million per annum. This is on assumption that the attacks result in a permanent loss farming unit. If we then assume

that there is going to be temporary loss of productivity of the farming unit, the loss to the GDP is estimated at 400 000 per month.

On an annual basis your department has been reducing budget allocation towards farmers. Furthermore, there has not been an alignment towards tackling the emerging issues that includes increase crime on farms and high input cost on production.
Minister, would you agree that so far you and the President provided lip service with no financial support towards the farmers while farmers are struggling with high input costs to ensure that South Africans are food secured? Thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon Masipa. I must actually say that from where I sit, it is quite unfortunate the way that you are putting your supplementary question on such an important matter. As I have said earlier, nobody underestimates or rather, downplays the importance of safety and security of all South Africans, including farmers, farm workers and rural community. And I think that it is important that all of us appreciates that.

Secondly, as you have said, there is a contribution that farmers, farm workers and rural communities, most of whom who are residing closer to farms, who works on farms as farm workers, contributes to the economy of this country. The issue of safety and security which is your primary question, I have indicated what the government is doing to address this issue that you are raising. I don’t think that it is correct for you to say the President and the Minister of Agriculture are paying the lip service about the support to farmers. There is a range of support that this government is giving to farmers. One of those relates to market access, in particular when it comes to commercial farmers where in most instances government including Department of International Relations and Cooperation, and including the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, we go all out to ensure that our commodities find their way into various market which bring revenue, not only to the country but also to farmers themselves. Therefore, it is not correct, and I wouldn’t agree that there has been any lip service paid by the South African government towards taking the agriculture and the agriculture economy as an important sector of our country. Thank you very much.

Ms T BREEDT: Hon Minister, farm murders and attacks do not only add to the cost of doing business that ultimately leads

to an increase in food prices, but detrimentally affect food production that leads to further food insecurity. You have now answered in terms of what you will do – in terms of revenue – but what steps will you and your department take to ensure that amidst these farm murders and attacks, our commercial and emerging farmers, as well as our rural communities are protected and that we do not become a further food insecure country as a whole? I thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very, House Chairperson and hon Breedt for the follow-up question. Again, it would really be like repeating a scratched record because the matter of safety and security is a matter that cuts across a number of government departments. But there is a lead Ministry which addresses this matter which is the Ministry and the Department of SA Police Service. As you know, the Department of Safety and Security, working with other departments, particularly my department, the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, have developed a safety and security strategy for rural communities, which includes farms. And I think it is important for us not to at all times highlight the issue of farmers as though they are the only ones that are impacted upon by any violent crime or any loss of life. Because for any

farm to be effective and to be productive, it requires both the farmer and the farm workers. All those people are and should be the concern of all of us, including this government. Thank you very much.

Ms M M E TLHAPE: Minister, the 2018 Rural Safety Strategy recommends that your department develop legislation that will enhance rural safety within the agricultural communities. What engagements have your department embarked upon to ensure social compact within the agricultural sector so as to improve the wellbeing of farm workers and labour tenants, especially in instances where the crime in farming communities is committed by farm owners? Thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon Tlhape. As you know that one of the issues that have been raised in looking at the issue of rural safety and what at times are the drivers of such issues. It relates, amongst other things, to issues of land and how the relationship between farm owners and labour tenants and farm workers is, which relates to issues of tenure security which is, even though is addressed by the Extension of Security of Tenure Act. You find that most of times farm

workers get themselves evicted and the department actually intervenes. And we have strengthened that legislation.

We continue to monitor, to ensure that farm workers are not vulnerable. But we also appeal, not only to what government must do, but farmers themselves, appreciate that farm workers are an important resource in the production purposes.
Secondly, the issue of rural safety as I have said earlier, we are working with the Department of Safety and Security, but in respect of the Department of Land Affairs, we are looking and reviewing our Labour Tenants Act, as well as safety and security. Thank you very much, hon member.


Inks R N CEBEKHULU: ... Mhlonishwa, kuliqiniso ukuthi zikhona izakhiwo ezimisiweyo ukulekelela ukunqanda ubugebengu nobuxhwanguxhwangu emapulazini okuhlanganisa nemiphakathi yasemakhaya noma imiphakathi eyayiyakhe emapulazini ngoba isebenza emapulazini. Inselelo ekhona ukuthi kukhona okuhle okwenziwayo phakathi kwabahlali okanye abasebenzi nabalimi ukubona ukuthi kuyaliwa nobugebengu. Kunesimo ke la khona abalimi beqasha izinkampani zonogada ezihlukumeza abantu basemapulazini uma beyovula amacala emaphoyiseni

bangasizakali. Qhaza lini uMnyango wakho olibambayo ukubona ukuthi abuqhubeki lobu bubi obenzakalayo? Ngiyabonga.


KWEZINDAWO ZASEMAKHAYA: Ngibonge kakhulu Ndabezitha ngombuzo wakho. Uqinisile impela ukuthi zikhona izinzame ezenziwa uhulumeni, ezibonakala zinomphumela kodwa zisekhona izinqinamba njengoba usho nje, la kutholakala abalimi abazama ukuzivikela beqasha izinkampani zonogada ezigcina sezihlukumeza imiphakathi ikakhulukazi leyo ehlala emapulazini. Siye sikwenze ukuthi uma kukhona izimo ezinjalo, silekelele leyo mindeni ngokuthi sibatholele abameli ukuze bakwazi ukuthi balekeleleke bathathe lawo macala bawayise ezindaweni ezifanele nezinkantolo ukuze zithathe izinqumo eziyizo.

Okunye esikwenzayo, ukuqhubeka ukuthi sibe nokukhulumisana nokuxoxisana kanye nabalimi uqobo lwabo, ukuthi kumele kube nokuhlalisana ezindaweni zasemapulazini. Kungabi khona ukucwasana ngoba bonke laba bantu banelungelo lobuninimhlaba. Ngiyabonga.

Question 803:


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you hon House Chairperson and thank you to the hon Meshoe for the question. The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development regulates the manufacturing, distribution, importations, sale and use of pesticide in terms of the Fertilizer, Farm, Feeds, Agricultural Remedies and Stock Remedies Act of 1947 and its regulations.

Protocol for application of pesticide aerially, the conditions of registration of pesticide as stated on the label in terms of set Act are that aerial applicators are required to notify all inhabitants in the immediate vicinity to the area to be sprayed and issue the necessary warnings.

Further the applicators are legally obliged not to spray over or allow sprayed yard to contaminate adjacent areas or water. Section 7 (2) (a) of Act 36 of 1947 provides that no person shall for reward or in the course of an industry trade or business use recommend the use of any pesticide for a purpose or in a manner other than that specified on the label on container thereof or describe on such container or use any agricultural remedy unless he or she is a pest control operator registered in terms of the Act or otherwise in the

presence or under the supervision of a pest controller so registered.

Aerial applicators are acquired to be registered as pest control operators in terms of Act 36. Yes, according to conditions to registrations of control operators and pest control operations regulations, aerial applicators including farmers are required to inform residents or human habitants living in and around the targeted spraying area of the details of the pesticides to be applied, hazardous associated with this product and all the precautions that must be taken to minimise the risk.

You would recall that in the last year, we had challenges with locusts in certain provinces particularly in the Northern Cape, Western Cape, Eastern Cape and the Free State.

We have notified working with our officials how our farmers who are part of the system of ensuring that we deal with these locusts must be able to spray in accordance to the Act but also notify communities.

One of the issues we have also addressed is that where such locusts are closer to residences, whether shops or homes, that

no spraying should be done in the close proximity because that will have some unintended consequences that are not desirable for communities. Thank you hon Chairperson.


Moruti K R J MESHOE: Ke a leboha mme.


Thank you hon Minister. Human Rights Watch produced a short documentary that exposed how Brazil which is one of the largest consumers of pesticides in the world has allowed communities to be poisoned by pesticides that were sprayed near their homes, schools and workplaces without their government doing anything about it.

Affected communities that fear reprisals from wealthy and politically powerful farmers are afraid of speaking out even when they know of symptoms they see in their family members that they are being poisoned.

What is the South African government doing to protect people living in rural communities where spraying of pesticides occurs regularly and what should families that are already adversely affected do to find? Thank you


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon member Meshoe. As I have indicated that there is legislation in our country that actually protects individuals against such hazardous elements.

We also indicated that if you have to do such spraying, under what regulations of Act that relates to the control of pesticides as well as their registrations. The registrations allow us to know are the people who have got such pesticides and for what use.

We ensure that communities are advised first, the farmer or anybody because in some instances pest controllers are not necessarily farmers. Pest controllers are actually asked by people to come and do spraying in their homes for termites or other things.

They are supposed to inform their clients about the kind of pesticides they are using, its dangers and its benefits. In instances where members of the community realise that there might have been an impact as a result of a particular pesticide, we have recourse to come to the state.

I will just quote again what happened last year in the Eastern Cape. When the locust infestation started, the provincial Department of Agriculture le by MEC Peters, went to all community radio stations in the province alerting people as well as advising them about the locusts as well as what are the means that are being used to contain such spraying of pesticides as well as what distance should be ... [Time expired.] ...

Ms N P MAHLO: Thank you hon Chair. To Minister of Agriculture, what are the legislative steps if they are found to be there that resulted to the use of unregulated chemicals in the pesticides used and how have they impacted on the crops production and communities around those areas living in around the targeted spraying areas and how will the department undertake the review of old legislations drafted under the apartheid to ensure that the it is aligned with our democratic constitutional rights?


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon Mahlo. Maybe let me say that at the moment there are no gaps that have been identified in respect of the Stock Remedies Act which also deals with issues of pesticides, fertilizers and farm feeds.

However, when there are such gaps that are identified, there are reviews that are undertaken and amendments are made. So, when communities or individuals believe that the current Act is not adequate to control pesticides along with other farm feeds and agricultural remedies, it is important that those are brought to the department’s attention so that the necessary review is undertaken and amendment legislation is done. Thank you hon member.

Mr N P MASIPA: Chairperson, Eastern Cape farmers have started complaining about the surge of locust outbreaks with the possibility of even getting worse. The battle to control the swarm is expected to increase.

It was previously alleged that national parks do not allow the spraying of chemicals in their parks. Minister, how is your department dealing with national parks in fighting the locust outbreak? Also, which pesticides must the National Institute of Communicable Diseases be notified of in case of exposure to set chemicals? Thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon Masipa for the question you are asking and the statement you are making. Indeed, we

have been observing that there is a surge of locusts in some areas and we are working with the relevant stakeholders to ensure that we control them.

The engagement between ourselves and national parks is still ongoing because indeed, it is important to take into consideration that whatever pesticide that is being used is not only protective to animals but human beings as well.

Hon member, seated here, I may not be able to give you the exact name of the pesticide that we have that we need to notify the relevant authorities as you asked. Thank you very much.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you so much hon Chair. Hon Minister, in 2020 the SA Organics Sector and the GMO-free zones in South Africa have published a report on pesticides drift with specific focus on farm lands, farm yards and other farming areas here in the Western Cape.

This report highlighted the serious health and environmental effects of pesticides drift as a result of aerial spraying. Most of the affected communities are poor close to these

farms. In light of the damning findings, why have you not considered banning aerial spraying of pesticides?

Secondly, country’s augsession of such a transition in order to deal with the effects climate change, why have you not considered introducing stricter regulations and the use of fertilizers in order to transition the country’s food production to organic farming?


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon member Matiase you have asked even though the other question that relates to climate change and the use of fertilizer or not is new and using other organic fertilizers.

The report you are referring to; we are engaging with those relevant parties to also establish what scientific methodologies are used to come up with the determination that they have put in their report. So that engagement is ongoing between them and our officials and where necessary evidence is found, such pesticide will be removed for use in our jurisdiction.

With regard to fertilizers, indeed as part of climate change adaptation, we are working with the industry to ensure that we move towards environmentally friendly use both in terms production of systems and inputs in our farms. Thank you very much.

Question 812:


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon member. The question as asked by the hon Tlhape, the answer to it is as follows. Yes, an endeavour to facilitate better access to finance by black producers as a department, we have worked together with other agencies such as the Land Bank and the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, to have a blended finance scheme that will assist farmers in the various commodities, particularly targeting black farmers.

We also do have other financial support such as the Micro Agricultural Financial Institutions of South Africa, Mafisa, where we assist smallholder farmers and some of those farmers were benefited from Mafisa scheme are those that are in the sugar industry, particularly small-scale sugar producer. We also have the Agriculture Black Economic Empowerment, AgriBEE Fund, that assist enterprise development. So, there are

initiatives that we are undertaking to make sure that this finance is a bit affordable because in the Blended Finance Scheme, we put particular category of those resources into a grant and mix it with loans. This ensures that it derisks the applicants, particularly women and youth who cannot afford the loan that they would ordinarily not qualify for.

The scheme is demand driven. However, of the seven producers supported by the Land Bank during the proof of concept phase 3 transaction was at 43% male-owned and three transactions were women and one was family-owned transaction. As you know that with the difficulties in the Land Bank, we could not proceed even after reviewing the scheme when it started. But we have launched it once again this year and we hope that we will be able to address the challenges of financial support to our farmers. Thank you very much, hon member.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon Minister. The first supplementary goes to the hon Tlhape.

Ms M M E TLHAPE: Thank you, House Chair and thank you Minister for the comprehensive response, especially when it comes to women and youth farmers. Minister, you elaborated on the initiatives within government. Are there any initiatives or

plans perhaps within the private sector that your department has undertaken to support increase in investment to the emerging agricultural sector in order to boost productivity and help create the necessary jobs. Thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon member for that follow up question. Firstly, I must indicate that there is private capital, including our financial institution that goes towards the funding of agriculture in the country. It might be that in terms of the scale of funding to smaller as well as new farmers, it may be limited. You also have got Agda, which is the Agricultural Development Agency which is a combination where farmers and other private sector are also financing agriculture. So, there are private sector schemes or entities that are supporting agriculture.

Through land development support, we as a department are working also with other financial institutions to support farmers particularly those who have been allocated leases on Pro Active Land Acquisition, Plas, Farms. We have been engaged with the four financial institutions – our banks, to actually enter into partnership like we have done with Land Bank and IDC on a blended finance scheme. This will not only expand the

rich, but also will enable accessibility by majority of farmers where they are. Thank you very much, hon member.

Mr N P MASIPA: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the blended finance that you eloquently spoken about only focused on South Africans that are on land that is already surveyed, which was done by the apartheid government – we all know. Before uJohn avul’igate [John opens the gate] for the DA to Union Building, can you please tell this House and the millions of rural villagers living on 17 million hectares of land that is registered under Verwoerd and Native Land Administration as to how are they going to benefit from the blended finance without any tenure security. I thank you.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon Masipa. I think you are also touching on another question which I will respond to but not now as you are trying to nudge me in terms of the registration of communal land in South Africa. But it would also be important that we look at the transitional measures that were put when we transited from the interim Constitution to the final Constitution because it will address that issue which you are bringing through the window.

However, government even today do fund farmers in communal areas, specifically on the blended finance in our engagement with the Land Bank. We have highlighted that issue, and there would be funding farmers who come from communal areas.
Government has a stance, it also funds farmers in the communal areas through a range of support measures, the Comprehensive Agriculture Support Programme, Ilima/Letsema, other provincial departments support which goes towards supporting farmers in communal areas. It is not true, the perception that farmers in communal areas are not supported. Thank you very much.

Mr M K MONTWEDI: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Minister, despite the artificial change in the mandate of the land Bank which has given it an ill-defined developmental mandate, the bank still largely remains a commercial bank and is reluctant to fund black farmers who have no collateral.
Have you considered providing government capital to the Land Bank for the sole and exclusive purpose of financing emerging and established black farmers without asking them for collateral, if not, why not. Thank you very much, House Chair.


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon member. I don’t think the mandate of the bank when it comes to development is still

defined. If you look at the legislation of the Land Bank of 2002, it clearly outlines the development mandate of the bank. Yes, we agree that maybe for a number of years, this bank, its portfolio, has largely focused on established commercial farmers. Its portfolio when it comes to black farmers is still miniscule. If you have been listening to the Chairperson of the Land Bank, Ms Thabi Nkosi, she has actually indicated that the bank’s focus will now – in terms of its weight, look at the support of black farmers, particularly women and youth.
With issues of the criteria in terms of collateral or no collateral – I think the banks understands the situation of our country and therefore would look at other measures of how its secure the credit that they give to farmers wherever they may be. Thank you very much.


Inkosi N R CEBEKHULU: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo, mhlonishwa, ezimpendulweni zakho kuzwakala kucaca ukuthi cishe umnyango ukukhathalele kakhulu ukuphumelela nokwelekelela labo abangene emkhakheni wezolimo ngenhloso yokuhweba kodwa laba abangenayo inhloso yokuhweba awuzwakali ukucacisa ukuthi qhaza lini olibambayo. Uma ngingahlehlela emuva, ngesikhathi lo mnyango uphethwe umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe u-Nkwinti, wakhipha ogandaganda ukuthi bayosiza abantu basemakhaya ukuze balime

ukudla bakwazi ukuzondla. Ngabe umnyango wakho ukhona na okwenzayo ukulekelela lapho ngoba isimo sikhomba ukuthi bayadinga abantu ukondleka ngokudla kunokuba badayise iyimoko. Ngiyabonga.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon member. Hon Minister, you have to wait for me. The hon Minister, you are now recognised.


DEVELOPMENT: I am very sorry, hon House Chairperson. Thank you


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Go ahead. Go ahead.



KWEZINDAWO ZASEMAKHAYA: Sihlalo weNdlu, ngiyabonga kakhulu, mhlonishwa uCebekhulu, Ndabezitha! Empendulweni ebengiyinikeza bengiphendula umbuzo obuziwe. Ngingasho-ke ukuthi kulo mbuzo owubuzayo ukuthi ngabe yiziphi izinhlelo ezenziwa uHulumeni ukuxhasa labo balimi abasemakhaya abafufusayo noma emalokishi ezindaweni la abantu bengakwazi ukulima khona ukuze bakwazi

ukuziphilisa. Njengoba ushilo-ke, uNgqongqoshe u-Nkwinti kwangesiye nje kuphela, lolu hlelo ayelubeka uhlelo lukaHulumeni esisaqhubeka nalo.

Lokhu kuxhasa abantu emakhaya ngezinto ngezinsiza zokulima njengoba sazi ukuthi yenye ingxenye yezinto ezenza kube lukhuni ukuthi abantu baye emasimin. Kuloli hlelo-ke siye senze izakhiwo la sizothi sifake khona lezi zinsizakusebenza esizibiza ngama-Farmer Production Support Units alekelela labo balimi abaseduzane ukuze bonke bakwazi ukuboleka bakwazi ukuzisebenzisa lezo zinsizakusebenza ukuze bakwazi ukuthi basizakale. Kanti futhi imali yokuxhasa, njengoba ngishilo nje, imali esiyifake kulolu hlelo oluthi Ilima-Letsima kumbe abanye ngaphambilini kwakuthiwa Sibuyela Emasimini bekuyingxenye yokuxhasa labo balimi abasafufusa abasebenza ukuthi bakwazi ukuziphilisa ukuze nabo bakwazi ukuhlomula.

Uhlelo olubekwe uMongameli uma sixakene ne-COVID i-Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, i-Presidential Employment Stimulus Initiative, u-Pesi, bekungolunye uhlelo olubheke ngqo kulabo abalima noma abafuye imfuyo encane abasebenza, ikakhulukazi laba abalimayo, endaweni engathi nje ilingana nenkundla yokudlala kumbe ngaphansi kwalokho. Kuyimanje nje sigqugquzela nabantu abahlala emadolobheni nasemalokishi

ukuthi indawana onayo encane endlini musa ukutshala kuphela utshani nezimbali kube kuhle. Yebo, Sihlalo. [Kwaphela isikhathi]

Question 804:


much, hon Chairperson, and thank you Members of the House. Concerning the question raised by hon Shaik Emam, the department is attending to the question of the illegal mining, though in reality is that, we don’t have trained officials who must deal with the illegal mining because, it is a criminal activity. Therefore, the illegal mining falls under the scope of the Minister of Police.

Also, I can add that, the East Rand Police Service has established a team to deal with amongst others, the illicit mining, including the organised crime element of this scourge. However, there are measures that we are taking to complement that work. For an example, if you take the areas listed there by hon Shaik Emam, you will discover that, in the East Rand, already 45 holdings have been closed, and 22 holdings are being closed. Hence, there is a migration that you see, from East to West.

In addition to that, there are measures that are being put in place to deal with the illegal miners underground in derelict and ownerless mines, which among others includes, conducting irregular disruptive operations. For an example, if there are underground miners in a derelict mines, they disrupt possible distribution of food underground, they disrupt electricity and water. In that way, we are dealing with the illegal miners that are underground in an illegal ownerless mine.

Now, in respect of the authorized mines, the mining companies are encouraged to ensure that, they monitor their own employees not to take food underground for the illegal miners. That is why, a company like Harmony, for an example, they have used a strategy of monitoring the illegal mining, by using biometric, to ensure that, they monitor the movement of their own employees and interact with the illegal miners. So, it is an issue that we are attending to, but our efforts compliments the work of the police service. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Through you, Chairperson, hon Minister, this problem, initially, or to some extent, has been created by your department, because mining companies who took the cream of the crop, left them deserted. The mines were not rehabilitated, and this has been going on for a long period of

time. My concern, Minister, is this, there is a fuel pipe plant running right from the East Rand through to the West Rand, explosives are being literally detonated underground of that particular pipe plant, and there is tens of thousands of people living alongside that pipe plant. This poses a great risk.

At one of these days, if those explosives that are detonated touches a few line, there are tens of thousands of people that are going to lose their lives. I agree with you that, it is also the responsibility of the police, but the problem is that, it is the police, together with the Mineral Resources and Energy, who created the problem in the first place, including the other relevant authorities. What I’m asking therefore is, when can we have some appropriate action taken, or are we going to wait for tens of thousands of people to lose their lives?

In the East Rand, it is estimated that, 20 000 people may be living underground at any given time. That is how bad the situation is. I know that you are trying, but that is not enough, Minister. Must we wait for a disaster to happen? Can you please tell us what you’re going to do, as a matter of urgency?


interesting that, when the mining companies mines, hon Member of this House, Mr Shaik Emam, blames the department. Yet, it is the companies that mines and take the wealth. Basically, if I take the message from him, he is saying that, mining companies shouldn’t be allowed to mine. If the mines are ownerless and derelict, it is because those mines have been left by the miners who were mining many years ago, and they have left them opened.

That is what we are attending to, through the rehabilitation process, particularly, the component that is being handled by the department. We are dealing with that as the legacy of bad rules and laws of the past. But we are not leaving them as they are. That is why we have given out a list that, every year, with the R140 million that has been allocated to the department, we are closing on the average, 40 holdings per annum, including three asbestos mines. It will take us as many years to mine, because it took them 130 years as well, to mine.

So, assuming things that you have never been directly involved with, is a big problem because you make all sorts of assumptions. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): I now recognise hon Kula.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: Hon Chairperson, I will take the question on behalf of hon Kula.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please go ahead.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: Hon Minister, given that the illegal mining is mostly a direct consequence of the mining companies that have abandoned mines after the resources have been extracted, leaving behind a major rehabilitation liabilities, and that, more than often than not, the department has limited resources to track down mining companies responsible for rehabilitation.

Is the crisis linked to the illegal mining in Springs and the surrounding areas related to mining companies that closed operation without complying with rehabilitation? What is being done, to ensure that there is financial provision is ring- fenced to use that, if the mining company fails to rehabilitate the environment, the department can access that money and carry out the rehabilitation itself?


for rehabilitation is what has been done by the Mineral and

Petroleum Resources Development Act. In other words, it is the modern day intervention by this government. Before this government, there was no provision at all. So, when we are getting the allocation to rehabilitate the derelict and ownerless mines, we are actually dealing with the legacy.
Having gone through it, currently, the operational mines are having an obligation and duty by law, to make provision for rehabilitation.

That is why, many of them undertake concurrent rehabilitation as their mining. So, our problem is that, we deal with the old mines that were left without operation, and the allocation that we are getting of R140 million is too little. I am happy that the Minister of Finance is here, he may see that the pressure is on us to get more allocation so that, we can increase the volume of work we do.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, Minister. I now recognise hon Lorimer.

Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I will be taking this question on behalf of hon Lorimer.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): ... and you are?

Mr K J MILEHAM: Ah, sorry Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Go ahead.

Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I want to start by noting that, it is never Minister Mantashe’s responsibility for anything, is it? It’s either it’s the President, or Minister Gordhan or in this case, Minister Cele, who should really answer the question. Anyway; anyway, given that this government has decided to address the problem of illegal mining through the Economic Infrastructure Task Team, it would be necessary for that team to have specialist mining knowledge to effectively prosecute mine crime.

What form of structures has the Minister set up to ensure that this task team has easily available access to expertise from the Mineral Resources department? Thank you.


responsibility of the department is mining, not illegal mining, but formal mining. Let me give you the value chain of mining, it is exploration, mining engineering and it is mechanical work. That is the value chain, and that is the responsibility of this department. Thieves are not the

responsibility of the department, it is the responsibility of the police.

Whether they steal ... [Inaudible.] ...even if they steal gold, or they steal maize, or they steal money or they use drugs, that is the responsibility of law enforcement. Now, as the police deals with this matter, we are working with them. Let me give you an example, the Council for Geosciences has developed a gadget that monitors the movement of the illegal mining. The idea in that gadget, is to use it alongside with the police. So, our work is to complement the work of the police when it comes to the illegal mining.

Our focus is on formal mining, that’s why, when we train artisanal miners, we are not training them because we want to convert the illegal miners into artisanal miners. We are training artisanal miners to develop skills to mine marginal deposits of mines. Therefore, they are not the same. I have said to one member in the committee that, if you take the illegal mining, the majority of the people who comes out of the illegal mining, are not the South African citizens. They are the thugs who come into the country to steal in the mines, and that is crime.

Therefore, mining is not dealing with crime. It is not equipped to do that. That’s why it must lean on the police to deal with crime.

Ms P MADOKWE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, the problem of the illegal mining has been ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Madokwe, just pause. Hon Radebe and hon Macpherson, I cannot hear that member who is asking a question, who is on her feet and who will not respond. Go ahead, hon Madokwe.

Ms P MADOKWE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, the problem of the illegal mining has been reported for years, and the government did not do much, until there were violent and life threatening consequences. Some of the challenges or the contributors to the illegal mining are the delays in your department in responding to the reports of the illegal mining by the communities as they start, and also putting in place monitoring of the mining companies that has left these areas unrehabilitated and without securities, not the legacy mines.

So, what have you done to follow up with the regional offices, and also to track these mining companies to make sure that

they do proper closure, rehabilitation and put in place security, and in the place of the illegal mining, rehabilitate the environment and the infrastructure? Thank you.


Chairperson and hon members. There is one issue on which we exchange words with hon Madokwe, hon Madokwe is a great representative of the illegal miners, and she sees the illegal miners as the consequence of poverty in South Africa. But people come across from Lesotho with heavy firearms and they are not South Africans. The gold that they are illegally mining does not end up in South Africa, it ends up in syndicates. That is why we always emphasise the fact that, the illegal mining it is a criminal activity, and it is actually an attack on the economy. Therefore, it must be dealt with like that.

If you report an illegal mining in an area, you report it in the region of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. The region of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy will go to the police and report that incident because, it is a criminal incident. Actually, many of these illegal miners are heavily armed, therefore, you don’t wear your tie and deal with them, because you are going to die.

Since it is a criminal activity, the police must deal with it because it is a serious attack on the economy. Therefore, we must all report it. If you say that, the department should have taken the report, if it is reported to the department, it will be taken to the police because it is a criminal activity.

Question 813:


you very much House Chair, the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment is the leading implementer of the Forestry Sector Masterplan. Working in collaboration with other role players. Most of the jobs to be created fall under the primary production category and others will be created in the downstream processing industries.

The jobs aligned to primary production are depended on the forestation programme and the transfer of category B and C plantations including the recommissioned areas in the Western Cape. Their forestation programme requires a license in terms of provisions of National Water Act of 1998, the National Environment Management Act of 1998 and the Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act of 1993.

The processes of obtaining such licenses are time consuming and must be completed prior to the commencement of the implementation of the newer forestation programme.

The transfer of the plantations has to undergo a consultation with the communities and the affected parties where models of transfer are proposed and agreed upon. These processes have been concluded and the transfer processes can be implemented accordingly.

In terms of the job creation in the first year of implementation of the masterplan, 4644 jobs were created through industry initiatives and 1593 through government initiatives aligned to the Expanded Works Programme. The total number of jobs amounts to 6237.

In terms of the forestation programme, our department has since put in place measures to streamline their forestation licensing processes, parcels of land totalling 30 000 hectares have been collated for development and will undergo environmental impact assessment studies. So that these areas can be licensed and plantations established.

In addition, to achieve the masterplan, target of 151 000 hectares are under cultivation. The department will employ the use of what we call Environmental Management Programme, EMPr, so that the authorisation will not be done in a piecemeal approach but will be dealt holistically. The EMPr will allow for bigger area to be processed and to facilitate the streamlining of authorisations.

For the category of B and C plantations and the exit lease areas in the Western Cape, a catch up plan has been developed jointly with the affected stakeholders and is being implemented. This will accelerate the transfer of category B and C plantations and unlock additional jobs. Thank you very much.

Mr P M P MODISE: Thank you very House Chairperson, greetings to yourself, greetings to the Minister, hon members. Minister, given the importance of the forestry supply, the value chains and the concerns around climate change, how effective is the forestry masterplan in dealing with issues of climate change, mitigation and adaptation plans, in line with the Climate Change Bill? And how will be the implementation of the Climate Change Bill impact the job to growth opportunities within the forestry sector? Thank you very much House Chairperson.


you very much hon member. I think that it’s important to recognise that we are talking about commercial plantations, on a whole we are utilising what would be regarded as alien rather than indigenous species. And obviously many of these species require considerable amounts of water for cultivation.

It is for this reason that when we reviewed the category B and C plantations, we did also give attention to the issue of planting of forest in catchment areas because we recognised that one of the complexities particularly in the Western Cape is that we are likely to ... [Inaudible.] ... exacerbation of drought conditions.

And, in certain sensitive areas we have actually reduce the number of hectares that would be cultivated. In this sense, we are trying to, on a one hand to stimulate the forestry sector and the jobs that it can create and on the other hand balance issues such as the scarce water resources. Thank you very much.

Ms A M M WEBER: Thank you, Minister, thousands of forestry jobs have been lost due to the coordinated land invasion in
... [Inaudible.] ... which according to news reports, were

allegedly facilitated by some local members of the third party. The SA Police Service, SAPS recently told our portfolio committee that the sheriff of the court was in fact actively prevented from intervening in the invasions last year. At the eleventh hour by representatives of the Department of the Public Works and Infrastructure and that this is to allow the invasion to continue.

Minister, do you have any further information regarding exactly the preventative shadow from acting last year? And is your department providing the SAPS with all available evidence regarding those responsible for the co-ordinated land invasions? Thank you.


you very much hon member, as you will recall, when we have discussed this matter in the portfolio committee. Our department had indicated, we have supplied the S A Police Service with all information that we have, regarding those involved in the land invasions.

And I think that our enforcement unit had done some collection of the information. I am not in a position to comment on who may or may not have been involved in these invasions but I can

say that we have handed over all relevant information to the SA Police Service. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you Minister, at this point the time allocated for question has been exhausted, but we will proceed with the last two supplementary questions. I now recognise hon Paulsen.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you so much House Chair, I will take this question on behalf of commissar Paulsen.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Go ahead.

Mr N S MATIASE: Minister, now the Eastern Cape plantations have been transferred to conservation authorities and communities. What is the post transfer support that the department will provide for communities to derive economic, social and environmental benefit? And how will these benefits be monitored?

Link to this, is the whole ownership management and control of wetlands areas and places such UMkhanyakude wetlands authority such as UMkhanyakude ... What measures do you take in place to

ensure that communities around those benefit from wetlands, including forestry plantation areas? Thank you.


you very much and suppose the specifics of UMkhanyakude situation could be regarded as a secret question. But let me say hon members that, fundamental principle of conservation in our country, is that there has to be beneficiation of local communities. And the conservation stand has to find ways in which local communities can benefit from the existence of the conservation stand. Otherwise, we fully understand that there would no sustainability of that conservation stand.

Let me say with regards to forestry that has been handed over to communities. The idea is that there should be partnerships with the commercial grower, who will assist in replanting the plantations and would be in a position to offer an oftec to communities once the forest has fully grown. So that throughout the life circle of the trees, there is support to the new owner growers. And once the process is completed, there’s also opportunities for oftec agreement so that there should be a readymade market. Thank you very much.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very House Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]

... Minister, I saw you this morning on television. Now Minister you will know that ever since you become Minister of this department, I have expressed ... [Inaudible.] ... concern about the existence this branch and the amount of money that we spend to retain this branch. And have always spoken about rapid transfer of property to community.

Now, having said that Minister, yesterday when we dealt with

Budget Review and Recommendations Reports, BRRR, we were looking at some the targets set by the department and the targets achieved for example an economic transformation and the job creation, 66% only were achieved, education, skill and health 43% were achieved social and... [Inaudible.] ... communities 33% achieved.

Now, this is a real uphill battle that you have Minister. What accelerated plan will be executed to ensure that as swiftly as possible we can bring the state-owned forest into the land of communities and commercial farmers will assist them in maintaining the new farms. Thank you.


you very much hon Singh. I think that we have debated

extensively in our portfolio committee underperformance by different branches. And obviously we’ve given significant information to the portfolio committee on how we intend to deal with aspects of underperformance, including where necessary consequence management.

But I think with regards to the forestry area, what I explained in the main question, is that we are now
fast-tracking the parcelling out of land. And we are doing this through ensuring that we deal piecemeal with environmental authorisations and also with water use licenses.

And I’ve also explained how in the Western Cape we’ve got a focused catch up plan. Because I think that we are very concern that this process, as you say has been subjected to considerable delay and obviously this delay undermines the possibility that those who are urgently in need of the livelihood that forestry can provide them with, are not having that access to those livelihoods. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you Minister, hon member as indicated earlier, the time allocated for question has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard. We now proceed to the motion in the Order Paper.


(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair and members of this august House, I move without notice that:

That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a) which provides inter alia that, the debate on a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled for the purpose of conducting Second Reading today on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that this report be adopted by the House. Thank you.

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and United Democratic Movement dissenting).

Question put

Report accordingly adopted.



(Second Reading Debate)

Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, fellow South Africans, the ANC supports the 2022 Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. Having celebrated the birthday of Comrade Oliver Tambo, and Comrade Steve Tshwete in October and November respectively, allow me to dedicate this development at this Division. of Revenue Bill to these revolutionaries, leaders and commanders of Umkhonto weSizwe, the People’s Army.

This is so because with this Division of Revenue Bill, the ANC-led government is continuing with the struggle they pursued. The struggle to liberate our people from the chains of poverty, landlessness and economic inequality. Capture the interconnectedness of racial oppression and economic exploitation. Comrade Oliver Tambo observed, I quote:

Racial discrimination, South Africa’s economic power, it’s oppression and exploitation of all the black people, are part and parcel of the same thing.

In other words, the two cannot be divorced. Despite the negative external supply shocks, which impact negatively on the economy, as evidenced by slowing down of economic growth from 1,9% to negative 0,7%, the country was still able to collect more than budgeted for revenue. This is mainly due to the windfall from commodity prices – hon Mantashe, thank you, inflation bracket creep and enhanced productivity and SA Revenue Service, Sars.

This has allowed government to allocate funds to deal with pressing socioeconomic needs and reduce debt, welcomed development indeed. The Division of Revenue Act of 2021, Dora is making it an additional allocation of R48,8 9 billion to the budget presented to the Minister of Finance at the beginning of the year. Underline hon members, it is something which is added on the money that was already allocated, it is new money. This takes the allocated funds from R1,975 trillion to R2,025 trillion, yes over R2 trillion. These are in-year changes, meaning for this fiscal year.

Also hon members, the fiscal outlook going forward is improving. Over 2023 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, we are starting to see the shifting of resources from national to provincial and local government. While national resources remain stagnant, provincial resources increased by an annual average rate of 2,8% in local government by 6%.

At the same period, we are seeing an increase of the provincial equitable share by 2,4% and provincial conditional grants increase of 4,3%. The local government equity share and municipal conditional grants increase on average by 7,8% and 3,6% respectively. Note hon members that, these increases happened without any proposed reductions in the 2022 Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS meaning that, what the Minister presentation the beginning of the year. This is important because there is no robbing Peter to pay Paul scenario here.

Even the hardest to please in this House will agree that, this is indeed a good story to tell. In fact, the Financial and Fiscal Commission, an independent institution seeing this, commented about improving fiscal position and said, I quote:

This reflects government’s commitment to fiscal discipline, consistent with its fiscal stance in ensuring fiscal credibility and sustainability.

The next question hon members is: Where will this money be used? These resources are located to health education, infrastructure, disaster response among others. This is in line with government’s commitment to a better life for all, by provision of better health and education for its citizens, especially the most vulnerable sectors of our society, women, rural people and the children. My comrades will say more about our interventions on early childhood development allocation.
This is critical as it is the foundation of the society we are building.

Infrastructure spending is critical for service delivery, economic growth, business opportunities, employment creation and revenue collection. Even more important, is the ability of government infrastructure to attract private sector investment, so that both public and private sector can grow the economy.

Unfortunately, gross fixed capital formation, that is a fixed investment by both public and private sector, has either been

very sluggish and even contracting over the years. We are far below the 30% investment to gross domestic product, GDP and essentially the National Development Plan, NDP. We are correcting this situation from our side.

Hon members, over the medium term as hon Godngwana term, I quote:

Government’s consolidated spending on building new and rehabilitating existing infrastructure will increase from 66,7 billion in 2022-23 to R112,5 billion in 2025-26.
This shows a doubling of on this spend within three years. This will be used to build roads, bridges, storm water systems, public buildings.

Underlining centrality and importance of infrastructure, the President, His Excellency Ramaphosa shared with this House that, I quote:

Through innovative funding and improved technical capabilities, we have prioritised infrastructure projects to support economic growth and better livelihoods especially in energy roads and water management.

We are walking the talk and this must be supported by all those who care about our people. What is heartening hon members and fellow South Africans is that, this also involves rural infrastructure projects. There is an additional funding for rural bridges programme. This is the Welisizwe Rural Bridges, a project which is implemented in collaboration with SA National Defence Force, SANDF. This is critical for our children who brave overflowing rivers in pursuit of education.

The Bill makes additional funds to respond to unfortunate disasters that occurred in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and North West provinces. More will be said about the R3,3 billion added to the Municipal Disaster Recovery Grant and R1 billion to the Roads Maintenance Grant.

Hon members, allocation of funds is half the solution. These funds should be utilised. The committee is deeply concerned by failure of some departments, provinces, municipalities to spend money. It is an issue that was also raised by Cosatu.

Hon members, as we think how we will vote on this Bill, let’s remember the little ones who need the nappies and those children who must cross overflowing rivers. People are staying in shelters and teachers and the end the nurses would be

supported by the 2022 Division of Revenue Bill. The ANC supports the 2022 Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I thank you.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill comes this year together with the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. Most of the changes in this Bill are necessitated by disaster respond requirements and technical amendments, required to shift disaster responds funding between municipalities and provinces.

However, the scale of disasters in South Africa are such that R695 million of newly allocated money, has had to be allocated to replenish funding as most disaster have been depleted halfway through the financial year. This raises serious questions about the status and use of the contingency reserve funds. Over the past several years, the contingency reserve funds which are meant for circumstances such as unforeseen disasters were used continuously to bail out filing state- owned enterprises, SOEs. Additionally, R117 million is now allocated to rehabilitating schools damaged by flooding,
R1 billion is allocated to repair roads damaged by flooding and R3,3 billion is allocated to municipalities to repair infrastructure damaged by flooding.

The combination of climate change, combined with the ANC’s failure to invest in infrastructure maintenance, create a toxic mix that will continue to endanger the lives and livelihoods of South Africans.

The Fiscal and Finance Commission, FFC, has noted that the funding for this disaster relief is in the form of conditional grants, but that this is after the fact emergency measure. The FFC has previously implored the government to create a system of performance-based grants that can encourage municipalities to both invest in infrastructure maintenance as well as climate change mitigation. I hope that going forward, the commission’s recommendations are not ignored.

Multiple Disasters Relief Fund, DSF, have raised alarm bells over the years that depleting contingency reserves, year-in- and-year-out for bailouts, will damage the government’s ability to respond to disasters effectively. Yet, here we are, in a set of circumstances where there is not enough money available for disaster relief. It is high time that the Finance Minister draws a line in the sand and ring-fences the contingency reserve fund and allows it to grow year-on-year, so that the country can attend to unforeseen disasters.

The DA calls on the Finance Minister to end the annual abuse of the contingency reserves, so that in the event of future disasters there is funding readily available and citizens do not need to wait months to recover their livelihoods and rebuild.

When one considers the bigger picture, it is disturbing that trends in successive Division of Revenue Bills, continue to drain provinces of money and in the Medium-Term Budget, this is only going to get worse as allocations will only grow by 2,8% while inflation remains stubbornly high.

Provinces are delivery mechanisms for health and education. They pay out teachers and nurses and continuous cuts to provincial allocations are forcing provinces, to cut back on paying salaries. This is not sustainable.

Furthermore, public sector investor capital is lagging and is far below the 20% top target as set in the National Development Plan, NDP. National government squeeze funding for provincial and local government is destroying infrastructure.

Lastly, it must be noted that up and down the country, where there has been no flooding or disasters, hundred of thousands

of citizens are battling to get reliable water supply or electricity. The only disaster they face is the ANC-led government, which systematically destroys infrastructure through corruption and neglect. I quote:

This rot is across the board. It is not confined to any level or any area of the country. Almost every project is conceived because it offers opportunities for certain people to make money. A great deal of the ANC’s problems are occasioned by this.

These are not my words, but the words of former President Motlanthe, which illustrate the first core problem citizens are facing.

However, there is a second problem and that is that at every level and every project is conceived because it offers an ANC politician an opportunity to cut a ribbon. So, projects require an audience to create the illusion of delivery.
However, in the background the bulk infrastructure, dams, substations and water treatment plants, are collapsing because local ANC politicians cannot cut ribbons and national Ministers cannot get the door in crowds and good photo opportunities.

The DA accordingly, cannot support this Division of Revenue Bill, until these two defects: Ending mass corruption and conceptualisation of projects and the failure to maintain and build new infrastructure becomes the major focus of the funding allocations. I thank you.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill, tabled by the Minister of Finance. The Amendment Bill seeks to accommodate unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure roll-overs and other adjustments. We do not reject this Amendment Bill because of these changes, House Chairperson. However, we reject this Bill as we did earlier in this year, because the Division of Revenue in its current form is nothing, but a tool to perpetuate apartheid.

We can say that the National Treasury is using the Constitution and the money Bill legislation to perpetuate racist spatial planning. White areas continue to receive water and electricity. Their roads are clean and well-maintained, while townships and informal settlements are living in a pigsty.

It is shocking that more that 25-years into the so-called democracy, we still have areas dominated by white people only

for them to receive service delivery when our people drink water with animals.

However, let us deal with the misguided Division of Revenue Bill. The EFF has raised this, every time this Bill is before Parliament. The assumption that the local government will raise its own revenue from sale of water, electricity and will charge property taxes, the problem is that more than 50% of our population lives in poverty.

More than 11 million people are unemployed and you have more than 18 million depending on social grants. The only municipalities that have capacity to raise their own revenue are those of metros and maybe a few local municipalities that have some form of economic activities. The rest of municipalities are not viable and will never have the capacity to raise their own revenue.

So, the idea that we can allocate 10% of the revenue collected nationally to municipalities that are dysfunctional cannot raise revenue and do not have the capacity for service delivery is foolish, hon Chairperson.

Now let us deal with the different crisis that are facing our country and the capacity to threaten the country’s social stability.

There are more than 10 million poor households in this country. The Constitution and legislation make provision for all of these families to receive free water, electricity and sanitation. There is a grant that is available for municipalities to deliver these services, but we have households that do not have access to free water, electricity and sanitation because municipalities do not have a budget.

We now know that municipalities are not delivering these services. We know that the National Treasury deliberately, rely on outdated information as far as 2016, to make the budget for the indigenous households not to be increased, that is criminal.

People of Bloehof, in Ward 3, Likona Tamia Local Municipality, live in raw sewerage every day, because the municipality does not have the practical and implement policy for free basic service.

People of Seshego, Minister, you would know, of Ward 13 in Polokwane, do not have water because while the number of the population is increasing, the grant for free basic services is not increasing.

We do not need some changes to the Division of Revenue if we are not going to change how we allocate resources in a more way that is away from the apartheid fiscal policy. We need to change the whole fiscal policy, including the Division of Revenue Bill.

Municipalities must get majority of revenue raised nationally, because they are the coalface of service delivery. However, this is not enough to turn around the collapse of municipalities. We need to expropriate land without compensation, Minister. We still need massive industries to create millions of jobs. We need to abolish tenders, to build capacity in municipalities.

Furthermore, Minister, you and your team must make it a point to go to all of these municipalities as far as Alfred Nzo and KwaZulu-Natal to see that the monies that you have allocated to these municipalities they are being used for the right reasons. For even today, it is still in the news that flood

victims are still not having houses. So, you and your team must make it a point and let us stop the desktop approach to giving funds to our communities. Let us be on the road, being and going, and seeing that these people are receiving the allocations that we are approving as this Parliament. However, we are rejecting this allocation of the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Inks E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, special greetings to the chairperson of the committee, hon Hlengwa. When the floods hit KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape, government announced huge sums of money to assist those affected. After the announcement, many people on social media recommended that these funds not be given to government departments but to organsations such as the Gift of the Givers.

This was an indictment to the ruling party and revealed a clear distrust towards the ANC-led government by the people. It further showed that the ANC-led government is known to be corrupt, embezzling taxpayers’ money, stealing from the poor and most vulnerable. These huge sums of money have been allocated to various causes in the hope that it would benefit the people.

Those funds should be afforded to people, as their democratic right have been crippled and not realized. We hold our breath in anticipation that this money is directed to where it should go, targets are met and that people reap the reward.

The amounts of grants awarded to different projects, as a form of relief speak volumes of the government’s preparedness to counter the effects of occurrences such as the floods.
Government has to realise that people who were affected by the floods in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape urgently need places to stay, as they are currently staying in buildings with no form of security or access to proper services, which they need on a daily basis.

We still hope that the allocation of the bulk of the money invested in infrastructure will be achieved. We have seen, actually, we have been at a disadvantage where money has been allocated to infrastructure, yet we still have poor, fragile and unmaintained infrastructure, with millions of rands going down the drain, because of the government’s inability to responsibly use the money for what it was intended for.

When money is moved, it should not be done without a reflective measure from municipalities. We have all seen and

heard of the dire conditions of schools and houses in our areas, even with funds that have been allocated to them before. It is important therefore that control measures go far beyond just focusing on spending the money.

Quality assurance measures have to be implemented, to ensure that quality services are provided, not substandard work. The lack of such measures create a loophole for corruption and embezzlement of funds by both unscrupulous politicians and officials, which is something that we been privy to.

It is disheartening to note that state-owned entities have again been allocated money, as a bailout, with little to no progress being made from the previous sums of money that they were given

We cannot keep on providing these entities with millions and still have no progress in their functionality. Recognition is given to the importance of the energy and transport sectors in the economy’s progress. However, these entities have not made any form of contribution to the people, yet they are constantly being allocated money as a bailout.

The marginalization of economic recovery and inclusion strategies of informal and township economy in the Bill is not well received. These economies are the … [Inaudible.] ... of our communities and therefore need some sort of support by government, as they support and serve many of our people. We need an environment that will foster high growth and that inclusion in allocation of funds will be the push that they need.

The IFP do support the report and dare not reject it, as this is ...


... into yakwethu, Shenge.


So, I support the Bill.


Me T BREEDT: Huisvoorsitter, een van die hoof fokusareas vir hierdie Wysigingswetsontwerp op Verdeling van billike Aandeel is om addisionele fondse beskikbaar te stel, om te verseker dat die nood in die provinsies wat deur rampe soos die mees onlangse vloede geteister is, aan te spreek.

Dit is belangrik om toe te sien dat die infrastruktuur wat nie net skade gely het nie, maar weggespoel het, so spoedig moontlik herstel en herbou word. Dit is egter van kardinale belang dat daar meganismes in plek gestel word om te verseker dat hierdie fondse nie soos die Covid-19 fondse verkwansel word en in die sakke van ’n paar politiese elite opeindig nie.


The Parliamentary Budget Office, however, made a very important point with regards to disasters. They mentioned that, while the 2022 MTBPS proposes R6,1 billion in disaster relief funding, government should work more on its preparedness and responsiveness to these disasters. Taking the current rate of disasters into account. This is very good advice.


Dit is nou goed en wel dat daar prioriteit gegee word aan hierdie provinsies wat nou dadelik hulp nodig het, maar die ander provinsies en munisipaliteite met hulle onderskeie probleme en uitdagings het nie weggegaan nie en moet nie op die agtergrond geskuif word nie. Die infrastruktuur in hierdie provinsies is in net so ’n slegte toestand, en hulle kan nie

beskostig om nie herstel, instand gehou, en opgegradeer te word nie.


The South African Institution of Civil Engineering, Saice, has published its 2022 Infrastructure Report Card, painting a bleak picture of the state of roads, rail, water and other infrastructure in the country. In this report, Saice found that infrastructure in South Africa is in crisis. South Africa’s overall infrastructure rating was a D, indicating that infrastructure is not coping with normal demand and is poorly maintained.

The picture becomes more bleak when looking at municipal and provincial infrastructure, especially roads, sanitation and water infrastructure.

It was found that the quality of wastewater treatment is declining, increasing the risk of disease transmission in downstream communities. A lack of waste collection may lead to disease, blockage of drainage systems and general decline in urban and rural landscapes. Furthermore, secondary and tertiary road networks are deteriorating rapidly, compromising

road safety. It was also found that most provincial roads are substandard and the situation is deteriorating fast.

A few weeks back, I saw an article stating that South Africa has one million more potholes than five years ago. As a Free Stater, I can attest to this. We do not drive on the left of the road, but on what is left of the road.


Om na die algehele prentjie van munisipaliteite landswyd te kyk, is geweldig kommerwekkend. Sommige inligting beweer dat munisipaliteite wat hulself in finansiële moeilikheid bevind, in die laaste dekade, vanaf 10 na 90% gestyg het.

Verder, het die Ouditeur-Generaal, OG, bevind dat daar landswyd ’n spoedige verlaging in die funksionering van munisipaliteite is. Ons sien dit in ons meer landelike munisipaliteite, waar watertoevoer nie die reël is nie, maar die uitsondering op die reël. Riool in die strate en in die parke is darenteen nie die uitsondering nie, maar die reël.

Salga se aanbeveling dat enige verdere reddingsboei aan Eskom ook munisipale skuld in ag moet neem, is kommerwekkend. Die regering is besig om ’n kultuur van wanbetaling te skep. Die

regering leer tans alle staatsbeheerde entiteite dat hulle doodeenvoudig net bakhand kan staan en die staat sal voorsien. Die belastingbetaler is op die ou einde die een wat vir hierdie kultuur gaan moet pa staan. Dit is onregverdig en onaanvaarbaar.


I conclude, we can shift funds from here and to there. We can rename grants from this to that. We can promise things now and just now. However, what we need now is action, not words. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chairperson, the ACDP notes that the net effect of the 2022 adjustments is an increase in the 2022-23 budget allocation by R48 billion.

The Bill proposes additional funding for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of provincial and municipal infrastructure damaged by the December 2021 and April 2022 floods, which includes as schools, roads, and other infrastructure.

Additional funding is also to be provided for the protection and care of flood victims, which will be used for the provision of formula and disposable nappies, provision of

meals and the payment of shelter-based social workers and social worker supervisors.

The ACDP is, however, concerned that disaster relief funds did not reach flood victims in time. In August, R2,2 billion in flood relief for victims was approved, but very little was paid to service providers. This issue was highlighted by the ad hoc Committee on Flood Disaster Relief and Recovery, which was of the view that much more needed to be done for flood victims, as many were still living in unacceptable conditions in temporary accommodation. This issue is also referred to in the report before us today.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement indicated that provincial and municipal governments are facing pressures from rising costs of basic and social services over the medium term. This is a result of fiscal constraints and funding from other sources being affected by weak economic growth.

The ACDP shares deep concerns that almost 90% of municipalities required support and intervention from national and provincial governments. This is due to cost pressures, high levels of corruption, accompanied by gross incompetence and financial mismanagement.

This is a shocking indictment, as it is a local government level where basic services such as water, sanitation, electricity reticulation, roads and community services should be provided. Sadly, this is not the case in many municipalities, which has resulted in service delivery protests. While National Treasury will be allocating additional funds, many municipalities are in a shocking financial state. This appears to have been ongoing for a number of years. We see continued turnaround strategies, but very little is being done to address dysfunctional municipalities. Municipalities now owe Eskom a staggering R53 billion.

Can these municipalities be entrusted to spend the additional funds allocated in this Bill, in line with the Municipal Finance Management Act? The ACDP has severe doubts, and for this reason, cannot support this Bill, despite its good intentions. I thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, the South African economy continues to struggle, especially from the effects of Covid-
19. Although there are some interventions which have been made by government to try and reignite growth, we want to put it on record that we do not believe that even the Medium-Term Budget

Policy Statement, MTBPS, and other interventions that were made in the past, have been enough to try and reignite the South African economy.

Poverty, as you know, has reached levels not seen for more than a decade while inflation, as we understand it now, has increased to a 13-year high. In fact, if one were to consider some of the key development challenges facing South Africa, as cited by the World Bank, one of the issues that this country faces is that the percentage of the population living below the upper middle income country poverty line fell from 68% to 56% between 2005 and 2010. However, it has since trended slightly upwards to 57% in 2015, and is projected to have reached 60% in 2020, which we have already exceeded.

In other words, measures that have been put in place have not been enough to try and cushion the poor people from the effects of poverty. In fact, what the government has done has tended to deal with poverty in a very fragmented approach, instead of a very comprehensive one. Indeed, we agree with our colleague from the FF-Plus when they say that the state of infrastructure in country is very dire. In fact, she is quite correct in saying, “Even on our roads, we do not drive on the

left-hand side of the road, but we drive on what is left of the road”, which is a problem in our country.

We welcome the review of the Conditional Grant system concerning infrastructure development, building capacity and providing operational support. However, our concern is that even as we review systems, as we change the municipal grants, what does not happen is that the performance is not good and impactful. Earlier, we listened to the Deputy Minister of Finance saying that the Treasury does not have the capacity to monitor the work of municipalities and to check how many of those municipalities have clean or bad credit records.

In fact, we are of the view that it should be the responsibility of Treasury to cluster municipalities according to their performance and continually review performances to make sure that capacity building programs are put in place: In order to ensure that these municipalities are able to spend the grants that are allocated to them; but also roll out services to our people.

It is unforgivable that even now, at the time of the flood relief funding, as it was given, it did not reach victims on time. Regularly, when we went around the country, especially

in affected provinces, we would listen to speeches - nice sounding speeches - in the House, of funding – relief funding
- that had been allocated to victims, but a couple of months later the funding had not actually reached the intended recipients due to the level of bureaucracy that you have on our system, in government rather. It is also ... [Time expired.]

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, South Africa is a country in which disasters will often be a death sentence for many, as a lack of access to basic services is an obstacle to survival. The flooding that occurred earlier this year is testament to that fact, as we saw tens-of-thousands of citizens displaced, key infrastructure damaged and the loss of lives. The GOOD party strongly supports the increase in financial resources towards combating natural disasters, as we cannot prepare for what mother nature throws at us next if we haven’t even cleaned up the mess she left behind.

While this monetary increase is vital, the people of South Africa are once again suffering due to inaction at national, provincial and municipal levels. The initial response to the crisis was to throw money at the problem, with the result being that the municipal and provincial governments were often

at odds with each other over blatant attempts to double dip from the funds and claim insurance.

While we share government sentiment that the climate crisis is real and will only continue to get worse, we cannot ignore that those infrastructure projects in the form of roads, bridges and education facilities, while essential matters little to those whose homes got washed away. These massive figures that are associated with rebuilding of the infrastructure should not ignore the issue of housing.

Shack towns and informal settlements cannot survive any form of natural disaster. As we continue to ignore the issue of spatial development, we continue to place communities at risk, taunting mother nature and daring her to repeat what happened in KwaZulu-Natal. Government must adhere to the idea that if public infrastructure is a priority in its repairs, then the communities where these projects would be built to serve need to be lifted as well.

The KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and North West municipalities who had administered these large-scale community reinvestment projects should be closely monitored, as they also have the potential of being used as model cases for similar renovation

projects that will be inevitably needed throughout the rest of the country. So, let us continue to rebuild this country on the principle of a strong foundation, as there is no greater shelter from the storm than a home.

May the floods have washed away so many dreams earlier this year be the last failure in our system, so that we can come to the next disaster and we are prepared. We support the Bill.
Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson allow me to start off by informing you that the NFP will support the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill of 2022. However, I think there is a question we need to ask ourselves. A lot of these funds are being allocated particularly towards infrastructure. Why is it necessary? Did we need a flood to highlight to us the serious problems we face in this country, as far as infrastructure is concerned, something that we see and which we use on a daily basis?

Now, let us look at eThekwini: R92 million to rehouse those that were living on the riverbanks. Nobody knew that living on the riverbanks in South Africa, particularly KwaZulu-Natal, is prone, until floods, that there will be a disaster. You

allowed them to live there despite the fact that we have millions of hectares of land in South Africa, that we can allocate to our people: To address inequality and the highly unequal society; and address what had happened during the days of apartheid. We chose not to do that.

We have been receiving funding every year without fail, to maintain our infrastructure. We have failed to do that. I hear some of my colleagues saying that we must make sure these monies reach them. Of course it will reach them! It always reaches them, but what they did with the money is something else. So, this money too, is going to reach them.

However, have we ever considered the other problem. Do they have the necessary capacity to be able to deal with the challenges with infrastructure? No, they don’t! If they had it, then we would not find ourselves in a situation where we are finding ourselves today. So, I can tell you that a lot of this money is going to go there, instead of it going for rehabilitation. They may have to use it for new infrastructure, because the infrastructure is so poor that you have not maintained it over the last 20 years, and you cannot rehabilitate anymore. You have to put new infrastructure.

It is exactly the same thing with the schools, where the Minister is now talking about having unisex toilets. She hasn’t got her priorities right: The poorest quality education in Africa right now. Had she been ensuring that a school infrastructure was well maintained, we would not find the situation. We are going to have more and more floods - there is no doubt about it.

Look at what Salga says! Salga says you must offset the debt that Eskom is being bailed out by the Treasury to what the municipalities who are in such poor state owes Eskom. Can you imagine this coming from Salga? So, you can see why municipalities are performing so poorly and the Parliament Budget Office, the PBO, has raised this concern about municipalities, particularly local government, being unable to act decisively and timelessly when there is a disaster.
Certainly, they don’t have what it takes to be able to do that. So, while the NFP supports the Bill, we concerned about... [Time expired.] Thank you

Mr O M MATHAFA: House Chair, hon members, fellow South Africans. House Chair, let me state right from the onset, the ANC supports this report.

The Bill makes 10,1% of the total available noninterest spending allocation with the sphere of local government, with a total addition to local government equitable share of
R5,3 billion, taking the total expanded resource for local government over the 2022 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, to R523 billion, with local government equitable share allocation estimated to reach R306,9 billion over the 2022 MTEF.

The equitable share transfer to municipalities will grow to 9% in 2023-24, 7,6% in 2024-25 and 6,8% in 2025-26; an average of 7,8% over the next three years, with conditional grants growing by 3,6%.

The ANC aligns with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, in welcoming the increase in conditional grants.

Hon Kwankwa and hon Ntlangwini, this is where cushioning the poor happens because these increases, amongst others, are aimed at providing cushion to municipalities from rising costs of bulk electricity, bulk water cost as well as the cost of basic services. The intervention will ensure continuous delivery of free basic services to poor households.

In line with the President’s injunction in April to make floods relief funds available, a proposed R3,3 billion is added to the Municipal Disaster Recovery Grant to fund the repair, reconstruction and rehabilitation of municipal infrastructure damaged by the floods. And these funds will be divided as follows:

A proposed total of R3 billion is allocated to KwaZulu-Natal province’s municipalities: eThekwini Municipality, uMhlathuze Local Municipality, uThukela District Municipality, uMgungundlovu District Municipality and iLembe District Municipality.

A proposed total of R290 million is allocated to the Western Cape province’s district municipalities: Overberg District Municipality, Cape Winelands District Municipality and Garden Route District Municipality.

A proposed total of R34 million is allocated to the Winnie Madikizela Mandela Local Municipality, which was affected by the December 2021 and April 2022 floods which visited the province of the Eastern Cape.

The ANC, further, welcomes the following additions to local government allocations in 2022-23 earmarked for disaster relief:

The shifting of R145 million from the Provincial Disaster Response Grant to the Municipal Disaster Response Grant to capacitate municipalities to render assistance to the affected the most by the floods. Ninety-two million rand is added to the Informal Settlements Upgrading Partnership Grant in eThekwini for the purchase of land for the relocation of displaced flood victims.

Hon Ntlangwini, before you build houses you need to get the land where you are going to build the houses. So, money is allocated for that purpose. So, you can’t build where the victims have been washed away by floods, we are removing them, we are building them somewhere, we are going to build land with the R92 million.

To ensure a speedy response to any disaster that may befall the country in this financial year, R248 million is allocated to the Municipal Disaster Response Grant.

Hon de Villiers, planning through foresight and not after the fact as you claimed when you were here at the podium.

The ANC’s commitment to the probation of an equitable transportation system, thereby fostering social cohesion and connecting municipal residents to economic opportunities is supported by the addition of R461 million to the Public Transport Network Grant.

Another welcome development is the R6,5 billion over the MTEF earmarked to fund municipal projects approved to the sixth window of the Budget Facility Infrastructure, BFI. These projects range from much needed social housing, rural bridges, projects, student accommodation implemented in eThekwini, Johannesburg, Drankenstein, Sol Plaatjie and Nelson Mandela Bay Municipalities.

Hon Kwankwa and hon Herron, one of the pillars of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, is infrastructure development and this allocation speaks to that.

Another R8,1 billion from the BFI, through the Indirect Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant in projects being implemented in Moretele North, Pilanesberg bulk water supply,

uMkhomazi water project, is indicative of the government’s commitment towards the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan and the ultimate economic recovery.

On rollovers, the proposed total of R1 million is rolled over for the Integrated National Electrification Project for municipalities to fund 50 electrification connections in Swellendam and Dikgatlong Local Municipality.

The R2,15 million rollover of the Title Deed Restoration Grant is welcomed. It will see the property rights affirmed to previously disadvantaged communities like the recent of White Blocks in Laudium, ward 61, in the City of Tshwane.

... [Inaudible.] ... Good for time immemorial have been pleading and begging for the finalization of the transfer of the properties.

A proposed total R15 million is rolled over in the Indirect Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant to fund operational payments for the Vaal Bulk Infrastructure Pollution Remediation in the eMfuleni Local Municipality.

Another shifting of funds is the R100 million from the direct component allocation to the Neighbourhood Development Partnership Grant to the indirect component in the Mogale City Local Municipality, KwaDukuza Local municipality and eMfuleni Local Municipality. These ones will be used to fund project preparation, planning and implementation. This is in line with the Minister’s commitment to building capacity for service delivery.

So, the issues of lack of capacity is something of the past because the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, confirmed that R9,1 billion has been spent across 40 state agencies in 2019 and 2020 to help municipalities build capacity and function efficiently targeting the following six areas: funded budget, audit outcomes, Municipal Standard Chart of Accounts, mSCOA, revenue management, asset management and supply chain management, SCM.

Hon Chair, I can confirm that with these interventions, lack of capacity will be a thing of the past in local government through the interventions of National Treasury and the Minister of Finance.

With that, Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, I don’t know what kind of a Minister we have. Why must you wait for mother nature to ... for example, allocate money, R6 billion after the floods? Why couldn’t he allocate that money before the floods and really uplift the communities?

So, the Minister mustn’t smile in this House.

However, Al Jama-ah welcomes the additional revenue of R6 billion allocated to various provincial and local
governments, with the assistance of mother nature, to assist in recovering from the damage caused by the March 2022 floods.

Why there must be a damage when ... you know ... and money is not given beforehand ... before these floods occur?

We are also concerned of reports that much of these relief funds have failed to reach the actual victims. Government should have a proper and efficient oversight on the relief funds to ensure that they reach those that they intended for.

So, I don’t know whether mother nature must strike the Minister and his team with lightning to make sure that the money reaches the proper people.

We continue to see the financial crisis in several municipalities and their failure to execute efficient service delivery.

Government is not doing enough to hold those accountable for wasteful expenditure in local government, which is increasing. There are provincial governments who are behind in their expenditure targets, which will again lead to a fiscal dumping in the last quarter of the financial year. I think they are waiting for mother nature to spend the money. Our economy can hardly afford this.

Government knew that the amendments will enable South Africans to save for nonretirement emergencies via the retirement funds is wishful thinking.

We’ve heard justified concerns that the government’s part on the fiscal ... [Inaudible.] ... is not sustainable. Our first concern should be whether the Division of Revenue Amendment addresses these concerns and will it alleviate the plight of the poor. To really address the needs of the poor we need to look at illicit financial flows.

We cannot allow companies like Glencore to have illicit financial flows and the money meant for the poor goes out of the country without being properly accounted for and taxed. Thank you much, hon House Chair.


Mnr E J MARAIS: Agb Voorsitter, Suid-Afrikaners gebruik steeds op grootskaal ongeskeduleerde krediet soos kredietkaarte, oortrokke geriewe en persoonlike lenings. Salarisse het nie tred gehou met inflasie die afgelope paar jare nie en verbruikers het nou gemiddeld 62% van hul bestuurbare inkomste nodig vir skuld paaiemente.

Die rentekoers het sedert November 2021 — ’n jaar gelede — met 2,75 persentasie punte gestyg. Weens die laer rentekoerse meer as twee jaar gelede, kon meer verbruikers ’n motor of ’n huis of beide aanskaf. Met die verhoogde rentekoers brand baie verbruikers nou vas.

Ons as lede van die nasionale Parlement is verkies om wetgewing daar te stel waarin Suid-Afrika kan floreer en groei, en oorsig uit te voer dat dit geskied. Die vraag is, het ons dit gedoen? Die antwoord is ’n groot nee. Die getal staatsamptenare het toegeneem en hul salarisse en lone het

gestyg. Verhoogde salarisse was ook weens verhogings in die verlede bo die inflasiekoers. As gevolg hiervan, verhoog die moontlikheid dat ons binnekort weghol-inflasie kan ervaar.

Swak ekonomiese groei het werksgeleentheid en wins gekniehalter met baie kleiner besighede wat hul deure moes sluit. COVID en die opeenvolgende ekonomiese inperkings het ook in die afgelope twee en ’n half jaar sedert Maart 2020 ’n geweldige impak op die arbeidsuitsette van mense gehad en daar moes ’n totale verandering plaasvind in terme van hoe om arbeid te verrig en van watter domisilie.

Nader aan ons as lede van die nasionale Parlement en ons toesigrol, staatsondernemings wurg die Tesourier met reddingsboeie op ’n jaarlikse basis. Die term omdraai- strategie by publieke instellings word nou as ’n alledaagse woord gebruik maar op ’n jaar tot jaar basis realiseer selde.

Eskom is en bly die grootste probleem vir die staat. Met ’n skuldlas van ongeveer R400 miljard kan die rentekomponent nie gediens word nie. ’n Beoogde oorname van ongeveer R260 miljard van Eskom se skuld deur die Tesourier is net ’n verskywing van ’n las binne die staat opset. Dit sal wel die balansstaat van Eskom beter laat lyk en Eskom in ’n posisie plaas om sy

rentedraende skuld te diens, maar die skuld is eenvoudig na Tesourier geplaas. Korrupsie by Eskom moet eenvoudig aangespreek en uitgeroei word. Vir Suid-Afrika se ekonomie om volhoubaar te groei, benodig ons betroubare energie vir besigheid en werksgeleenthede vir ons jeug. Addisionele befondsing vir Denel, Transnet en die SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, gee Tesourier hoofbrekings en trek die staat verder af in die afgrond met sy skuldlas.

Publieke instellings moet ’n bydra maak tot die staatskas en

... jaar op jaar ’n reddingsboei van die Tesourier versoek nie. Indien die chief executive officer, CEO, [hoof uitvoerende beampte] en executive committee [uitvoerende komittee] tesame met rade aangestel oor sodanige entiteite dit nie suksesvol kan ... [Tyd verstreke.]


Ms E D PETERS: Hon Chairperson ...

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Peters, please pause. Let’s wait for them until they are ready to listen to you. Proceed, hon Peters.

Ms E D PETERS: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, let me start by indicating that the ANC supports the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill 2022.

The economy is still trying to recover from the deleterious effects of COVID-19, the July unrest and the floods in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. We now know that the
economy grew by 1,9% in quarter one of 2022 and then shrunk by 0,7% in quarter two of 2022. The negative growth was mainly due to external shocks like the Russia-Ukraine conflict and slower international economic growth in our main trading partners.

I am delighted to stand in front of you and say that, despite the economic hurricane, the provinces are getting even more resources to deliver on the needs of our people. I intend focusing on the changes taking place at a provincial level through the provincial equity share and conditional grants.

I heard hon member Hendricks indicate that we need to plan for disasters. I’ve never heard something like that because it is impossible to anticipate that disasters will happen at a particular level. So, I think hon Hendricks, please ...


Ons is mos nie daardie mense wat ... op die grond gooi nie.


We are not Google on the floor.

These allocations are meant to build more resilient communities. They are to intervene in education as an investment in the future of our country. Therefore, this Bill provides a much-needed safety net for those sections of our community that are poor and most vulnerable. These are the people that the ANC worries about, and we will leave no stone unturned to better their lives and sustain their livelihoods. We agree with the President when he said:

If there is one thing we all agree on, it is that the present situation — of deep poverty, unemployment and inequality — is unacceptable and unsustainable.

I know the EFF, DA and FF Plus do not support this Bill because they really don’t care about the poorest of the poor. They only grandstand here and come ... [Interjections.] ...
Yes, hon De Villiers and hon Marais ...


Hulle ken net die mense van Suid-Afrika vir votes [stemme]. As hulle gaan om stemme te werf dan ken hulle die arme mense. Dan ken hulle die mense wat in die plattelande bly. So, dit is belangrik ...


... that we do this. As the ANC, we believe that if we were to focus on infrastructure spend, half of our problems will be resolved. The floods and unrest caused untold harm to railways, roads, bulk infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc. This will allow the private sector to invest if we invest in infrastructure.

Together, we can grow the economy and provide job opportunities for our people. We can do it. We did it in 2010 when we all pulled in the same direction and provided one of the best World Cup tournaments the world has ever seen. We also want to take this opportunity to wish Qatar well, and we are saying that despite Bafana Bafana being visibly absent, we will lend Qatar the vuvuzelas.

An amount of R300 million is being added to the Education Infrastructure Grant ... caused by the April 2022 disaster. An

amount of R7,1 billion is added to the Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant to deal with the deteriorating provincial roads. The sight of our children struggling to cross rivers in their quest for education is painful. This we find mainly in the most rural provinces. That is why the ANC supports the R3,7 billion added to the Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant for the building of modular steel bridges in rural areas through the Welisizwe Rural Bridges Programme. This is done in collaboration with the SA National Defence Force.

In the current fiscal year, the provincial equity share is allocated R49 million. Direct conditional grants increase by R1,948 billion. There is R1,8 billion for the construction and upgrading of the Coega Development Corporation’s bulk infrastructure, which is a big economic boost to Gqeberha and the Eastern Cape.

Over the years, civil society has been calling for more resources to provinces and municipalities. These are levels of government which are closer to our people. I am happy to say that the ANC has an ear to listen. In the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, starting in 2022-23, we are seeing a higher percentage of nationally raised revenue going to these spheres of government which are closer to the people.

In education, a total of R20 billion is added for the cost of employees. Educators must listen because the opposition is going to vote against this Bill. So, you are saying that you don’t care about our teachers; you don’t care about our learners. You pay lip service here. The ANC welcomes an additional R1,6 billion for early childhood development.


Diegene van ons kinders wat by kleuterskole is moet ook education [opvoeding] kry. So ons sê, vir ons is dit belangrik dat ons kinders ook voeding by die skole kry. Daarom is daar R1,5 miljard vir dit tersyde gesit. Nege miljoen kinders gaan elke dag by skole kan eet.


These children will not go to bed hungry whilst the ANC is in government. Our former President Nelson Mandela said: “Giving children a healthy start in life, no matter where they are born or the circumstances of their birth, is the moral obligation of every one of us.” The Bill ...

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Peters, please pause. There is a loud noise on my left and I might even have to add to your time for that. Hon Peters?

Ms E D PETERS: [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Peters? Hon Peters?


Sit asseblief.


Hon members, I’m asking you not to converse aloud because you are suffocating the speaker on the podium. Hon Peters, I know you have increased the volume. Now the volume is really getting to us. Please proceed.

Ms E D PETERS: Hon members, I challenge you to support this Bill which seeks to improve the lives of our people and the working conditions of our health workers. Failure to vote for this Bill is to condemn the multitudes of our people who depend on antiretrovirals, ARVs, tuberculosis, TB, sufferers and those people who depend on public health laboratories.
This one needs no petty politicking. Let’s pull in the same direction for the benefit of our people.

These are some of the conditions that we are putting to these allocations. Members of the executive, if money is allocated

for houses, we want to see houses. This money should be used efficiently and effectively. We require proper accountability from you as Ministers and Deputy Ministers. No wasteful and fruitless expenditure. We expect small, micro and medium enterprises, SMMEs, to participate. In any case, history shows that they are the biggest job creators. Let black companies, women-owned companies and companies owned by young people be part of rebuilding. In other words, let us invoke that spirit of 2010 as we try to make our country a better place by decreasing inequality, poverty and unemployment. Yes, the ANC supports the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, good afternoon once more, this budget is not austere. The local government equitable share increases at an annual average rate of 7,8% and municipal conditional grants increase by 3,6%, the provincial equitable share increases by an annual rate of 2,4% and provincial grants increase by 4,3%. So, this budget is not austere. This budget is pro-poor. The Division of Revenue redistributes substantial resources from the urban economy to fund services in rural areas.

Chair, metropolitan municipalities account for 70% of personal income tax revenue, but receive only 31% of local government

transfers. Similarly, 61 mostly rural municipalities also receive 31% of transfers to local government, but only account for only 5% for personal income revenues. This budget is pro- economic growth, we are investing in economic growth by funding our municipalities on large-scale projects that are catalytic and strategic. R6,5 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF is allocated to several municipalities to fund infrastructure projects approved through the budget facility for infrastructure EFI.

Chair, some of the problems facing local government in delivering public services have been described by several speakers today. We agree with hon Herron and hon Dipuo Peters that this is not just about throwing money into the system, failure to spend allocated funds is also one of the problems of underperformance in our local government. Underspending in the capital budgets, especially conditional grants, it’s a major concern. It is directly related to weak multiyear planning, supply chain management challenges, over optimistic capital budget and engineering skills. Consequently, municipal infrastructure investment is derailed. We will be building capacity in municipalities through implementing a district- based approach to speed up service delivery and to ensure that municipalities are properly supported and adequately

resourced. We will ensure that all municipalities are enabled to perform their functions and their duties effectively and efficiently by mobilising and making available expertise, key skilled personnel and system that can be shared between district and local municipalities as needed.

As observed by speakers today, this budget responds to the negative effects of climate change, including floods and disasters. This budget contributes towards building resilient infrastructure - you may ask me how. We support infrastructure planning to support our climate resilient capacity. We are assisting municipalities with technical assistance to strengthen their capabilities, to integrate climate information into city planning and processes. It’s a budget worth supporting because it is in the interest of the poor, economic growth in dealing with the negative effects of climate change and increasing capacity of local government.

Hon members and Chair, Bafana Bafana is playing tomorrow against Mozambique and Angola in preparation for the CAF next year. As we support this budget, can we also remember and support Bafana Bafana. I thank you.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Business of the House concluded.

The House adjourned at 19:25