Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 03 Nov 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
THURSDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF VIRTUAL (OR HYBRID) NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch: Plenary
The Council met at 14:03.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The Chairperson announced that the hybrid sitting constituted a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
ANNOUNCEMENT
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to remind you of the following: The virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. Delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. For the purpose of the quorum, all the delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be
considered present. Delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted.
All delegates in the chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their card to register on the chamber system. Delegates who are physically in the chamber must use the floor microphones. All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room and note that the interpretation facility is active and that permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and Salga representatives are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.
Allow me to announce that the information provided to me is that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice in terms of council Rule 229. In accordance with Rule 229, there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.
We will now proceed to the question session but before we proceed I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister for the Social Services Cluster especially the
Minister of Human Settlements, Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture and I am told the Deputy Minister of Water and Sanitation.
Further, I would like to remind delegates that in terms of Rule 229 of the Council Rules, let us just note the following, it is really standard and to remind Ministers and all participants in the process that they should please note that the time for replies by Ministers to a question is five minutes, only four supplementary questions are allowed per question and that a member who has asked the initial question would be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking supplementary questions is strictly two minutes. The time for reply to supplementary questions is four minutes. Supplementary questions must emanate from the initial question. we always want to emphasise that the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.
We will try the best we can to deal with Ministers in the order stipulated in the guide. I will now call on the Minister of Human Settlements to respond to Question 180 and this question has been raised by hon M. Bartlett.
Again as a reminder, five minutes for response to the question. Hon Minister?
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS CLUSTER 2C - SOCIAL SERVICES
Question 180:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson. Good afternoon to you, hon members and thank you hon Bartlett for the question.
The lessons learnt from the recent disasters indicate that the current recovery strategies as well as capacity to assist provinces and municipalities are currently inadequate.
Consequently, the department has decided to create a permanent disaster response unit with the requisite skills in the department. Secondly the emergency grant management framework is being reviewed to ensure that both the application and the approval processes are streamlined because we are picking up that this is part of the problem. Not only that the metros but in small municipalities where you find that when they do applications there is no capacity for some time assessments
that are accurate. So we are mainstreaming in terms of the work so that application processes can be responded to.
The other area which remains a constraint is around construction based response solution which unavoidably inherently has bottle necks. Part of the problem that we had to experience in KwaZulu-Natal was availability of land especially in the eThekwini area.
Land development planning processes, business forums who disrupt the work that has commenced, objection by neighbouring community for example when we wanted to relocate some of the communities from the mass care centres as we put temporary units then you find that communities will say not in our neighbourhood.
The other area which has been a difficulty especially in KZN is intimidation of officials which during the disasters when we were recalculating and evaluating the mass care centres, we lost one of our officials who was killed within the eThekwini area.
Looking at some of these challenges in terms of relocation of people but also because they were sitting in halls especially
in eThekwini. We had to take a decision that revised how we intervene in terms of disasters and that’s why the rental assistant scheme and transitional emergency accommodation is currently being implemented.
We had to go to Cabinet to request this approach to be adopted by ourselves. We also did a voucher system that was meant to assist us as part of speedily responding to the partially damaged houses.
This was actually one of the areas that could assist us and as we evaluate the work we see that this was quite efficient in responding and we could be able to move a lot of people back to their houses because we would be able to give them vouchers that they were able to repair their roofs, windows and all that.
The ability to develop capacity to respond adequately to emergency housing is an ongoing process by the department as well the provincial Department of Human Settlement and within municipalities.
We consistently have this engagement at MinMec where in the coming month we will be in OR Tambo District visiting one of
the areas that was hit by disasters hence the entirety of MinMec which includes the Minister, the Deputy Minister, the MEC’s from all other provinces, the councillors who are responsible for human settlements so that we can be able to take lessons out of that and see how we can be able to improve the efficiency and ensure that we can be able to respond timeously to the people who are affected.
Another issue that we are looking at in terms of our capacity response is participation in disaster management committees that have representatives of other departments and ourselves, addressing mitigations strategies for emergency housing but also part of the issue that we are looking at is to look at alternative building technology that would want to utilise.
We have agreed with the MEC in the Free State to say can we test this in terms of Free State where we respond to the disaster and implement it through the turnaround time which we find quicker however we are still responding to the issue of the quantum that is a bit higher so that we can be able to respond within a turnaround time that is quicker.
As Human Settlements we are saying that the minute there are disasters, people are on the streets, that is why we have put
mechanisms in place to say you do not have to wait for the disaster to be declared in order to request intervention and this is the conversation that we have at MinMec and ensuring that even councillors and municipalities which are not part of MinMec especially the local municipalities and districts know what needs to be done and creating a seamless approach in terms of the response. Thank you very much Chairperson.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you very much hon Chairperson. Good afternoon and thank you very much hon Minister.
Hon Minister, thank you for the response to this important question. How is department in collaboration with other sector departments planning to use a District Development Model as a catalyst for upskilling the local government to respond more effectively against floods and other related natural disasters? Thank you hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson and hon Bartlett. Indeed, the District Development Model presents an opportunity for us to have seamless coordination as well as response time.
It is not yet perfected as I was reporting. It is one of the areas that we are engaging upon. We have assigned officials in the department to districts so that they can assist us in supporting those districts.
One of the areas that we are now learning is that being able to communicate through the district champions so that they can assist us where we are unable to.
Firstly, to inform the councillors and those who are within that area in terms of the process of the application but again in terms of feedback hence we are utilising the OR Tambo as I said we be in the OR Tambo District.
Myself and the MEC in the Eastern Cape decided that let us utilise OR Tambo as a pilot to be able to implement the respond to disasters seamlessly especially because this is an area has been seeing disasters over the years, more than three disasters a year repeatedly and government’s turnaround has not been adequate that is why we are utilising it as part of the intervention but also putting in place the monitoring and evaluation.
What we have done is utilise our war room as part of the areas that go around and look at areas that will not be able to go to and compile a report we are sharing now with our MinMec so that there can be lessons learned.
I do agree that the DDM presents a model that will be able to assist in resolving some of the challenges that we are coming across. Thank you very much Chairperson.
Mr M NHANHA: Thank you very much Chairperson and good afternoon to the hon members and the Minister. Minister, despite your government’s proven false narrative that you are caring government, in KZN since June this year, people who were affected by floods are still housed in community halls and most of these people live under inhumane conditions. How do you reconcile your narrative of being a caring government and the fact that people in KZN still live in inhumane conditions? Do you still consider yourself as a caring government, if so, when does the Minister envision this situation to be resolved? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much house Chairperson. Let me acknowledge the concerns by hon Nhanha in terms of the turnaround time. I think I am the first to
acknowledge that the time we took to respond could have been better and lesser hence we are talking about lessons learned.
The nature and magnitude of the disaster were massive which is one of the challenges. I believe that we can still consider ourselves as a caring government.
One of the things that hon member must remember is that in terms of KZN, we can safely say we had disasters in eThekwini, Harry Gwala, iLembe, King Cetshwayo, Ugu, uMgungundlovu, uMkhanyakude, Amajuba, uMzinyathi, uThukela and Zululand.
If you look at the number of these areas in terms of intervention, we have been able to close the mass care centres across. Currently in eThekwini, out of 120 mass care centres, there are 70 left in terms of the target last counting and this is also because when we saw it was taking long to remove them from the mass care centres, we then took a decision to say let us intervene and provide an alternative and this is what I am talking about when I respond to the issues around the rental assistance scheme that we have started to do so that we can move them out of the halls into those areas.
The other issues that we have is not only because of government not wanting to intervene. If we look at KwaZulu- Natal, especially eThekwini because that is where we have challenges and that is where we continue and are hoping that by the end of the month we would have removed everybody in the mass care centres.
Part of the problem in eThekwini is that we could not return people or build temporary units where they used to be because the landscape had moved.
Secondly, we had to find land and when we found land, part of the challenge is that communities would say we do not want temporary units here. So, the not in my neighbourhood issue started. We took long in terms of negotiating trying to convince people to allow us to build those temporary residential units.
The other challenge that we faced was the disruption by businesses or what we call Amadelangokubona in our project. At some point we had to stop the operation of the disaster because we had an official who was killed coming from one of the areas at the mass care centre.
These are some of the challenges that we have experienced. When I acknowledge that we could have responded quicker but some of these areas are remote hon Nhanha and are out of our control and this is why we are talking about lessons learned.
That is where we now move into the issue of building that exist where we rent them and move the people there while we are building so that we can relocate them. Thank you very much Chair.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you House Chairperson. Minister, a capable state reduces vulnerability to natural disasters, yet currently municipalities across provinces in South Africa are poorly equipped, drainage systems are not working, there exist poor workmanship on public infrastructure such as roads, bridges even houses build by this government. Corruption runs rampant, increasing vulnerability. Which measures of intervention have been taken to strengthen government so that it is able to respond timeously to social disasters without stealing from the poor? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. We do not mind hackling if members can just remember that for as long as it does not interfere with our rights and the rights of the
speaker to be heard. So we will move on to the fourth supplementary question by hon Du Toit.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I have not responded to hon Arnolds.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, sorry. Minister first.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson and I note the question by hon Arnolds. Firstly, hon Arnolds, I am not responsible for the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs as a Minister, it is Minister Dlamini.
From our side when we talk about capacity, it is that support mechanism. We do it on the basis of Human Settlements nationally as provinces do it on their behalf. Local government’s capacity would be the responsibility of working together between the municipalities along with the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
Where we are able to intervene directly is based on the metros where they are able to request support in terms of capacity.
When we talk about the DDM intervention we are saying we will
inform them on how the process works but we cannot intervene because that will be another line Ministry.
Regarding the issue of stealing from the poor, when we look at this disaster that we are referring to, there has not been a report that there is money being stolen in this current intervention.
What we did to protect the financial and fiscal policy as well as the money allocated was that we introduced what we call real time audit. Real time audit assisted us to be able to look at how we are spending, where we are spending so that money is not missing. Though in terms of days on implementation, the real time audit actually added more time in terms of us delivering but the good side is that there has not been a single report that says money has gone missing.
A generic narrative around stealing, specifically about the April disasters in KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape does not have that record of any money being stolen. Thank you House Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you hon Chair. Hon Minister, as you know state capacity is the government’s ability to accomplish
policy goals either through generally or reference to specific aims. A state that lacks capacity is defined as a fragile state in a more extreme case a failed state.
Some may call South Africa a failed state for obvious reasons and your department had goals and specific aims before April 2022. Minister, did they include addressing the failure of local municipalities and legislatures to adhere to legislation pertaining to the building of houses in suitable areas and what engagements did you have with traditional authorities to ensure that Spluma legislation will adhere to as a proactive inter-ministerial effort? Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson and thank you hon Du Toit for the issues that he is raising.
I think the first issue around engagement, we do continue to engage with traditional leaders around the implementation of Spluma. You would note that the IMC, Inter-Ministerial Committee which is another Minister but just to indicate because I was part of that indaba with traditional leaders and Khoi leaders where we agreed in that meeting that the implementation of Spluma will happen because over time this
was not acknowledged and recognised which indeed as government we would have loved to say this should have been done earlier so that we can be able to deal with the issues that relates to where people are.
We continue to engage with traditional leaders as part of capacity so that we can support because they do not have the ability to do engineering work where they can see whether they are placing people in a suitable land for human settlements or not. Those engagements are ongoing.
As part of the work that we do, you could not in terms of the law and the Constitution as it protects their rights and legal standing therefore we could only do that through collaboration.
Work continues through the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Land that is assessed by the Deputy President in this area and from our side we continue to engage because it is not our line function. Thank you very much Chair.
Question 172:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson and thank you hon Sileku. The Auditor-General of
South Africa identified material irregularity expenditure of R2,3 million and below are the details that I want to just to highlight:
Competitive bidding process not followed of almost
R1,5 million. - The matter was researched to the internal audit unit to conduct a determination test, as required by the National Treasury Framework. The internal audit unit found that, no losses were incurred and that the transaction was not related to fraudulent, corrupt or other criminal conduct.
However, the internal audit unit recommended that the department must take disciplinary action against the official implicated, and subsequently issue the official with a final written warning. The department is in the process of implementing the internal audit recommendation.
On appointment in the unadvertised post which amounted to R237 000 - The matter was referred to the internal audit as well in terms of the process that is required by the National Treasury Framework. It was also found that no losses were
incurred and that transactions were not related to fraudulent, corrupt or any other criminal activity. But, internal audit recommended consequence management to be implemented against
the employee by the department. The case is currently with the labour relations unit within the action which we have been able to implement currently.
Expansion and variation of orders that exceeded 15%. - The matter was referred as well. The internal audit is still in the process of reviewing and doing the determination test, as required by the National Treasury Framework. This area of work has not been concluded, once it is concluded we’ll look at the recommendation and implement it.
Prepayment and advances with no contractual agreement in place for most around R11 million. - The Auditor-General raised material noncompliance, due to the fact that the department made a prepayment to Government Communication and Information Systems, without any contractual obligation as required by the prescript, including which it means that, they needed to sign an agreement.
The department – I afterwards facilitated a process of having a Memorandum of Understanding, MOU in place as recommended by the Auditor-General, AG. The draft MOU was received by Government Communication Information System, GCIS and vetted by legal. The memorandum is awaiting signature and approval by
GCIS. This is work that is being done and also consequence management is being effected on the employee. Thank you very much Chairperson.
Mr I M SILEKU: Hon Minister, one would want to appreciate your long explanation in terms of consequence management. But let’s just go to one of the irregularities that were raised, especially one that says payments were made prior to services being been received. That for me, is a very serious allegation, especially when you deal with supply chain management. Everywhere in the country, you’ll find that people don’t follow due process especially when people pay without services being rendered.
I appreciate that you say there is a process in terms of consequence management. What I would want to hear from you Minister, would you think that if someone has actually paid somebody out having not received the service, do you think that a written warning meets the - ...
IsiXhosa:
... mandithi, xa efumene ...
English:
... a written warning ...
IsiXhosa:
... ingaba simfanele eso sigwebo umntu owenze into ayaziyo ukuba akufanelekanga ukuba ayenze. Le nto sele isisiqhelo ukwenzeka kuba apho kulawula i-ANC, siyayibona le nto rhoqo apho abantu benza izinto besazi ukuba baza kusuka babethwe nje ezandleni ube umcimbi uphelile. Enkosi Mphathiswa.
UMPHATHISWA EZENTLALO YOLUNTU: Enkosi kakhulu lungu elihloniphekileyo uSileku.
English:
Maybe let me start by explaining that, the money that was paid was not to an external service provider outside government.
The money was paid to Government Communication Information System GCIS. So, it was within government and that is why the reprimand was seen as sufficient by both internal audit and external audit.
I want to assure the hon member that, in terms of the portfolio especially where I lead, we do not just ...
IsiXhosa:
... betha abantu ezandleni.
English:
We do take consequence management. There are several officials
...
IsiXhosa:
... apho xa sifumanisa ukuba benze okungalunganga sibachaze emapoliseni ngokwethu. Bakhona abanye esithe saya ngokwethu
...
English:
... to report them to the Special Investigating Unit, SIU and also to the Hawks.
IsiXhosa:
Uza kubona ukuba kweli Sebe lezeNtlalo yoLuntu, siyakwazi ukuba xa umntu emoshile okanye enemali ayibileyo asilibali ukuba ngabantu bakuthi aba kulindeleke ukuba bafumane iinkonzo.
English:
So, I can show you here ...
IsiXhosa:
... asizange sabetha umntu esandleni qha kuba sisithi yinto encinci. Sithatha ngokuba imali ayilahlekanga naxa kuphicothwa iincwadi kutshiwo ukuba imali ayilahlekanga, le nto asilulo urhwaphililizo bayijongile bayihlola.
English:
They said, the only problem was that, when they sent the money to the GCIS there was no memorandum of understanding. This is between the state and the state entity. Enkosi kakhulu. (Thank you very much.)
Mr M DANGOR: Minister what are the key issues emanating from the report of the Auditor-General that relates to poor internal controls and risk management, and those that relate to the patterns of corruption. How is the department adressing these issues? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson and thank you very much hon Dangor. I think one of the issues that came as an area that needed to strengthen controls, is around our supply chain management, SCM processes, whereby for example, when we use the central database system, sometimes it doesn’t give us the right people
in terms of the services. For example, in the areas of appointments, we’ve had this difficulty. We’ve agreed with the team at that time, we did not even have the human resources head.
Now we have a chief director for human resources, who is paying attention in this area so that it doesn’t recur especially on advertised posts. One example, we had to say we will terminate a service of a service provider who used a wrong email address and when candidates responded, then only after a complaint we realised that this was a problem. This was somebody who was on the central database that utilise. So, we have now started to clean up the databases that we use in order to be able to get quality services.
If you look at the variation as well, we’ve put internal control in terms of authorisation by both the chief financial officer and the director-general. As I said, in terms of contractual agreements within entities of the state, because previously others thought that when you do ...[Inaudible] ... might not be a need for an MOU between the department and for example ... which that has been rectified and we believe that, that we will improve in terms of our audit outcomes. Thank you very much Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, a lack of adequate enforcement of action plans on nonperformance challenges, have resulted in a lack of appropriate interventions and actions into irregularities. Consequence management must be applied to prevent the recurrence of irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure.
The department has committed to ensure tools are in place to monitor the effective progress in provinces. Please provide details of these tools and how they will be implemented with particular regard to the context, specific issues phased within the different provinces. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson and thank you hon Hadebe. What we have done firstly is through Minmec ...[Inaudible] ... Auditor-general team that gives us the audit in terms of the sector, the areas that we need to improve. That is part of what we now have agreed at Minmec, that we will do joint monitoring of the areas which are sector wide audit issues. So, that too will assist us to improve in terms of compliance and also making sure that we do not find ourselves in trouble.
The other area for example in terms of Minmec, we have agreed as a sector, both in terms of the province and municipalities that are receiving grants from us is that, we will ensure that for example, if officials didn’t pay invoices within 30 days, they are facing consequences management, for example, having to explain themselves in written warnings given to them, or even possible dismissal. So, these are some of the tools that we are implementing.
But again, in provinces what we are doing, where we found that there’s been weaknesses in terms of planning, for an example in Limpopo we’ve had conversations with the MEC. We will be able to support the MEC with technical capacity which previously we did to be able to assist in advanced planning to reduce the issues that will be raised by Auditor-General.
Similarly, with other areas we are paying attention. One of the areas as one that has been raised by the Auditor-General team, is around the issue of transfers to entities by their provincial department, for example, the transfer to the Housing Development Agency, HDA without having to have an agreement upfront. So, that has been ... [Inaudible] ... the MECs across the provinces and together with Housing Development Agency Board. Thank you very much Chair.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Minister, in last year’s report the Auditor- General reported lack of consequence management for financial and material irregularities. The Auditor-General also raised concerns both during the 2019-20 and 2020-21 financial years, reported about internal control deficiencies in your department, this despite promises of strengthening controls. Now, which steps has the Minister taken in ensuring that these are addressed effectively? How will you improve oversight and performance? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson and thank you hon Arnolds. We have already started to ... [Inaudible] ... all the areas where there’s been irregularities and material irregular expenditure, and the areas and what we have done about it. This report will also be presented to the Auditor-General’s team in terms of consequence management.
Secondly, around monitoring of management issues that have been raised by the Auditor-General, it is a quarterly matter that we deal with, both in terms of the department but also with the entities. I have since joining the portfolio, requested when we meet with the entities’ boards that they should be able to do when they do their quarterly performance.
Report as well on the implementation on audit issues, so that we do not lose track of the issues that have been raised and also we can avoid recurrence.
There is ... [Inaudible] ... audit between the last audit and this one that we had just received, the 2021-22 financial year. Therefore, we are quite comfortable that we continue improve as per our commitment to the Auditor-General team.
Thank you very much hon member.
Question 181:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Dodovu. Just to confirm that, as per the national department, we do not owe any municipal rates and services ... [no audio] ... that we are supposed to pay. So, there isn’t any ... for us to put in place.
However, we thought that we should expand as well, in terms of our entities. The Community Schemes Ombud Service, CSOS, does not owe any municipal rates and taxes on outstanding services. All properties are rented and services are duly up to date.
In terms of the National Housing Finance Corporation, NHFC, it does not have any outstanding municipal rates and services.
All properties are rented and services are duly paid.
We have the Cape Town Community Housing Company ... the Upington Municipality ... land purchased there, and the rates and taxes that we have are almost around two million. Cape Town ... in terms of ... municipality ... in terms of the Cape Town Community Housing Company ... These are some of the companies that are dormant which we are closing that currently
... because of the buildings that belong to us that still have to be sorted out.
In terms of the Property Practitioners Regulatory Authority, PPRA, it does not have any municipal rates and services outstanding and does not owe any services.
With regard to the Social Housing Regulatory Authority, SHRA, it does not owe any municipal rates and services. The Housing Development Agency also does not owe any municipal rates and taxes.
In terms of the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, it doesn’t owe any municipal services, rates and taxes.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and thank you very much, hon Minister, for your response. At the same time, hon Minister, you would agree with me that one of the serious problems facing municipalities is the inability of these municipalities to collect rates and taxes, and if they were going to collect these rates and taxes, it would improve service delivery, promote economic development and ensure that it addresses the basic services of our people.
Now, in the light of this and the fact that departments continue to not pay municipalities as they should, don’t you think that those that are responsible, especially the heads of departments, must be held accountable as part of consequence management to ensure that the monies that they owe to municipalities are paid?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Dodovu. I agree that the payment of services is quite critical and important, not only just payment but payment on time, so that we can have sustainability and the financial viability of municipalities.
Indeed, where you find government departments not paying ... As you can see we are saying that we are paying attention to
that, not only as the department but also our entities, in order to ensure that we do not contribute to the nonfunctioning of municipalities or making those municipalities not financially viable.
We note the areas that you are paying attention to, even including one of the conversations that we had, which is around how we build indigent homes within these municipalities and ... they will be required to provide services to them, such as free electricity and water, because those people cannot afford to contribute. So, part at what we are looking at is to be able to say, can we change the policy now so that by 1 April 2023 we could be able to implement the houses as we build RDP houses to have solar panels. That is one of the ... work that we are doing so that we can try to assist in order to ease the burden on municipalities.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, the initial question’s subject line is, payment plan for municipal rates and services. My question speaks directly to it. With the Deputy President confirming that discussions had taken place between government, traditional leaders, kingships and traditional councils with regard to private ownership of so-called traditional land in so-called traditional areas, and that the
transfer of ownership of land to individuals will soon take place, I want to know which entity, person or grouping has up to now been responsible for the payment of municipal supplied bulk services, specifically water, to these traditional areas? Or, is it treated as a free basic service? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Unfortunately, I don t think that is within our responsibility. We, as the Department of Human Settlements, pay for the services. As he says, the primary question is, do we owe? We do not owe. Both ourselves and ... entities are paying. I think the hon member can ask the Minister responsible for traditional leaders on matters that relate to traditional leaders’ authority.
Setswana:
Mme S B LEHIHI: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo.
English:
Minister, there currently exists a challenge of nonpayment for municipal services in South Africa. Therefore, municipal debt management is critical. What measures has the Minister taken to ensure that the little funds available, which are dedicated to service delivery, are not mismanaged by municipal officials?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I think this question is also not meant for me. I’m responsible for human settlements. If I start crossing the line, I’ll be taking Minister Dlamini- Zuma’s job. Thank you very much.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you for that answer, hon Minister. I just want to double-check. When you read the report you said that your department owed nothing, but I think there is one entity that you mentioned that still owed an amount to the City of Cape Town. Can you please repeat what that entity is, what is the amount that’s outstanding and what will be done to ensure that, that outstanding amount is settled so that you then have a clear book whenever you have such a question again?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much. This is the Cape Town Community Housing Company. These were old community housing projects that ... not necessarily fully owned by government but were partially developed by government and owed by communities. So, we are resolving it to try and ensure that this ... because they are sitting under one of the old entities that we need to close. They are currently dormant in terms of operations but ... resolving the matter, possibly hoping that we can have a write-off with regard to this one in
terms of debt from the municipality. It is about two million. Thank you very much.
Question 156:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson ...
[Connection problems.] – they do indicate that the department in the province remains committed to prioritising the completion of the Rocky Park IRDP project. It is also important to note that the municipality has approved a new configuration on the schemes. As a result, only scheme 8 will remain demarcated for the CRU instrument and the rest of the schemes, that is from one to seven, have been converted to social housing. Currently, the project is sitting at R154 million for the Community Residential Units, Cru and R16 million for no-income units.
The current cost for the assessment of scheme 8 to date is estimated at R921 million and this will be confirmed once the supply chain management processes for the appointment of the implementing agent has been concluded by the provincial department. The cost should be sufficient to undertake the assessment work on scheme 8 to completion. Upon completion of the assessment work, the appointment of the implementation agent will also be done by the department and the department
will advise. Therefore, this will inform the revised plan in terms of the social housing instrument as it prescribes a unique financial model that the CRU instrument needs to use. The grant and debt funding requirement will be determined at a later stage and once an accredited Social Housing Regulatory Authority, SHRA, has been appointed and a financial guiding test has been evaluated.
It is estimated that the assessment work on scheme 8 will be six months taking into consideration all due SCM processes. The timeframe for the development of the schemes 1-7 cannot be determined at this stage as there is a need to comply with the Social Housing Act. The Department of Human Settlements needs to embark on an SCM process for the appointment of the ... [Connection problems.]
After the project has been taken over, remember that the project was initially under a municipality that could not perform and was taken to a provincial level. It was found out that the payment of R51 million made by the KwaDukuza Local Municipality in the project which was not provided for in the project agreement. The province has instituted an investigation in this regard to be able to determine the issue around the payment. Once this is completed, a report will be
provided to the Minister so that she can receive an updated matter on this one. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, the community has been exasperated by the almost 10-year delay have now illegally occupied the unfinished houses which has resulted safety challenges. I would like to know whether any efforts have been made to monitor the illegal occupation of the units? If not, why not? If so, are those occupying the units, the original beneficiaries or just other members of the community and if they are not original beneficiaries of the unit will those occupying the unfinished units be evicted from these units and are there plans to accommodate these individuals? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chair, I think the first issue is to discourage members of the community from illegally occupying whether land or buildings because it does create a problem. One of the issues is that an assessment is currently been undertaken to ascertain whether those already in the houses are the ones that appear in the beneficiary list. If not, they will have to be evicted so that the rightful beneficiaries occupy those houses. I do acknowledge when we asked the province and they alluded to this as the
lack of management by the municipality and as the remedial action, they took the project from the municipality to ensure that they can oversee it. So, the recovery of the project properly is one of the issues that the province is paying attention to and also the broader programme that we do of unblocking blocked projects. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
IsiXhosa:
Mr I M SILEKU: Mphathiswa, mna ndingumhlali waseRocky Park.
English:
I was so excited when this project started in 2010. It is more than a decade now and I am still waiting to be allocated a house as I am in the database. What has happened in this particular project is that we have seen people moving in, in unfinished houses. We have seen people waiting for their units. We have seen the residents of that particular municipality toyi-toying to the councillors and to the department but no progress at all. It is unacceptable that, for 12 years after we started the project, we are still waiting and there seems to be no progress at all.
I just want to add on what hon Jola was saying in terms of proclaiming that we are a caring government. If you believe, in terms of putting people first, I would have expected that after your appointment as a Minister, I think a year ago, that the first thing that you would go to this particular project and to the beneficiaries to apologise for all the mistakes that had happened to this particular project and commit yourself that you will be attending to them.
My question to you, Minister is, have you been to this particular community? If not, why not? If you did go to this community and beneficiaries, what have been your commitments as a relief to their struggle? Thank you very much Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson ...
IsiXhosa:
... ohloniphekileyo uSileku akanalo ilungelo lokufumana indlu. Andimazi ukuba uyilinde njani indlu yakhe phaya eRocky Park kuba umvuzo wakho ungaphezulu kowabantu abaselungelweni lokuzuza izindlu zikarhulumente (RDP houses) kwaye ungaphezulu kowabantu abafumana izibonelelo (grants) ...
English:
... in terms of support for what we call the missing middle.
IsiXhosa:
Uyabona ke xa uthetha ngolu hlobo kuyacaca ukuba siza kuba nengxaki kuba kucacile baninzi abantu abafana nawe abasenzela uluhlu lube ngumtyangampo. Kufuneka siyilungise ekuhlaleni into yokubhalisa kwabantu bezazi ukuba abakho selungelweni lokuxhaswa ngezindlu zikarhulumente. Yiloo nto kanye ekufuneka siyilungise kuqala ukuze abantu bayazi ukuba le nkxaso karhulumente ijolise kubantu abanemivuzo emincinci nabahluphekileyo. Loo nto yenza ukuba sikwazi ukubanika inkxaso eyiyo kuba xa siza kuxhasa abangengabo iza kuhlupha loo nto leyo.
Makhe ndibuyele kula mbuzo obufuna ukuqonda ukuba ingaba i-ANC ngumbutho obakhathaleleyo abantu kusini na. Ndiyile kwiKomiti yeMicimbi yeSebe sandwendwela amaphondo onke nangona ndingakhange ndiye ngokwesiqu eRocky Park. Ndisaqhubekeka nokutyelela amaphondo ndijonga ukuba iinkonzo zinjani. Zikhona iindawo esifika kuzo sifumanise ngenene ukuba kudala behleli abantu belindile. Umzekelo, ndafika e-O R Tambo ndadibana nabantu abathi kudala belinde ukufumana izindlu kuba izindlu zabo zemka ngowama-2010. Apho ndaqala ngokucela uxolo kubahlali lokuba bekungafanelekenga ukuba yenzeke ngolo hlobo.
Ndaye ndagqithela kumagosa asebenzela isebe, ndawayala ukuba igama lam ayingo- “I’m sorry” ndayibethelela into yokuba nabo kuza kufuneka basebenze ngokukhuthala ukuze ndingahambi ndixolisa kwezi ndawo zonke. Kuza kufuneka nabo bathathe uxanduva ...
English:
... publicly, whoever was responsible. That is why I am saying that in this project ...
IsiXhosa:
... siza kuthatha isigqibo sokuba abantu abanoxanduva ... [Lost connection.] 01:38 – 15:00 – niyathetha neSalga niyiNCOP. Xa uthetha neSalga iye ifune ukuba oomasipala ibe ngabo abaphuhlisi/abakhi (developers). Ingxaki yethu yeyokuba abanye oomasipala siyabanika ntonje baphinda basiphoxe. Xa sibaxutha ilungelo lokwakha bayakhalaza bathi isebe likazwelonke alifuni kubanika inkxaso. Ngoko ke ndiyathanda ukuba sisebenzisane sibuye silungise iindlela zethu.
English:
We are not doing this thing on Rocky Parky only.
IsiXhosa:
Ukufika kwam, ndisuka kwelinye isebe ndifumanise ukuba ...
English:
... there are 1,9 million units that are not completed across the country. We then took a decision, on my budget presentation, to allocate money to unfinished projects that would unblock and start completing them and this would happen in a three-year term. We are having a site of these projects that are unfinished but we are not discussing them today. We are discussing Rocky Park but there might be many of them that exist and we now putting a plan and mechanism that we will be able to work on. Thank you very much, Chair.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe woMnyango siyakuqonda ukuthi kwawena uyasho kule Ndlu namhlanje ukuthi iphrojekthi yaseRocky Park akuyona yodwa engaphelile, maningi. Kepha uma sikhuluma ngeyaseRocky Park kuyihlaso Ngqongqoshe ukuthi kuze kube yimanje ayikho into eqondile eshoyo ukuthi le phrojekthi izophela nini ngoba isidonse iminyaka eminingi.
Umbuzo ke Ngqongqoshe ukuthi imalini ebekelwe iphrojekthi, yimalini esiyisetshenzisiwe, zingaki izinkampani eseziqashiwe ziqashelwe yona le phrojekthi lena eyodwa, nanokuthi kufuneka ilindelwe nini ukuthi iqedwe le phrojekthi. Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLALISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo
ohloniphekile, ngibonge ilungu elihloniphekile umama uLuthuli. Angiqale ngokuthi ngithe uma ngiqala ngiphendula lo mbuzo ngasho ukuthi imali esisetshenzisiwe ngokomlando sithi yizigidi ezingamakhulu amahlanu nantathu (R153 000000) leyo ebeyibekelwe amaCRUs futhi izigidi eziyishumi nesithupha
(16 000000) bezibekelwe amayunithi ahola kancane. Loku engikushilo ukuthi uma sesibheka kuze kube manje ikakhulukazi u-scheme 8. Angithi ama-scheme akhona aqala ku-1 ayophelela ku-8. Lapha esesibheke khona u-Scheme 8 iyona ebukeka ihamba kahle, kuqinisekisiwe ukuthi kuzodingeka R1 921000 ukuze kuqedelelwe ngoba uma uthatha iphrojekthi kumasipala uyimikisa esifundazweni kufuneka ukuthi labo asebekhethiwe banqanyulwe kuqalelwe inqubo kabusha. Yikho lokho okwenziwe ukuthi le projekthi uma sekufuneka iqalise yathathwa yisifundazwe. Manje njengoba usho ukuthi iyothatha isikhathi esingakanani.
English:
The assessment team promised to finish the assessment work within 6 months specifically for scheme 8. Another thing I requested is that the project has long been there and is one of those we are paying attention to. At least the one we are talking about ...
IsiZulu:
... seyiqalile ukulungiswa futhi iqalile ukuthi ibuyiselwa esimeni ukuze sizokwazi ukuyiqeda. Ngiyabonga.
Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: There is no feed that is coming through from the translation services. If you can tell someone to have a look, please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Which one is particularly not working, hon Ryder?
Mr D R RYDER: There is nothing. I have tried all the channels, no translation coming through.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I will ask the Table to assist you. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Mnu E M MTHETHWA: Bab’uMasondo siyabonga Dingiswayo ...
English:
Hon Minister, has any study been undertaken to understand the reason behind the delay of this project? If not, why not? If, so, what are the relevant details?
IsiZulu:
Ngibese ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ubuye wasifundisa lapha ukuthi nqobani abantu okufanele bathole lezi zindlu.
Ngiyasibonga lesi sifundo ngoba mhlawumbe uhlu lwakho lude kangaka yingoba kunabantu abapake ngokungalungile kuleziya zindlu. Uqhubeke ufundise Ngqongqoshe. Nawo ke umbuzo wami. Ngizolalela laphaya kwi-laptop yami.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLALISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Mangibonge lungu
elihloniphekile Mthethwa lo mbuzo onawo. Yebo, njengoba sisho isizathu sokuthi kube nezinkinga futhi nephrojekthi ingahambi kahle ukuthi umasipala uye wahluleka ukuthi uyibheke kahle.
Umasipala uyewahluleka ukuyiphatha, wahluleka ukuyihambisa ngohlelo lwakhona. Kube nezinkinga eziningi phansi kumasipala. Siyazi ukuthi omasipala bethu ngesinye isikhathi abanye baba nezinkinga ...
English:
... of capacity on planning ...
IsiZulu:
... nokuthi benze ukuthi iphrojekthi isuke kahle futhi ihamba kahle. Yingakko ukuze siyilungise iye yathathwa isifundazwe lapho. Isifundazwe siyesangethembisa ukuthi sizokwenza
ngokusemandleni aso ukuthi le phrojekthi iphele futhi ihamba kahle ukuze abahlali bazothola izindawo zabo. Ngiyabonga Kakhulu.
Question 173:
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLALISWA KWABANTU: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo ...
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga.
English:
In October 2021 I announced that all projects and incomplete projects within provinces and municipalities need to be identified and evaluated to ascertain reasons for the projects being blocked or incomplete. A blocked or incomplete project impacts the household as that household is not able to occupy the house. As a result, the department is continually ... approved but not allocated a house. I directed that a strategy and plan be implemented by each of the provinces which ensures that the blockages and constraints in the projects are addressed. This I have directed be done in the next three years, as I said earlier on, the national department in conjunction with the provinces has identified approximately
3 522 projects that are currently blocked. Some of the reasons for the blockage include the following; Developers and contractors who have abandoned sites due to various reasons including the liquidations of their companies and some of them including saying that they do not see profit because if you are to build a Breaking New Ground, BNG, the profit margins are very low.
You've got to manage your workers properly; You've got to manage your material very properly otherwise the project becomes unviable. Hence, we're seeing quite a number of contractors living sites, especially the small and medium ones. Whereas with the big companies, they're able to cushion themselves because they buy in bulk, especially material ... area is around planning and environmental approvals that are outstanding within municipalities. Then the lack of bulk and linked services. What we found, hon chairperson and hon members are that in some of these projects you’d find that the top structures are complete, the house is complete, you've got a house that is roofed with windows, doors, everything but it's not linked to bulk, it does not have services, and, therefore, it's difficult to be able to allocate those people. And part of what we have done as well in responding to this is to be able to increase the quantum ... the allocations per
province for bulk infrastructure. Instances of land, houses and or stands having been illegally occupied where, for example, you have a land identified for human settlement, and as you start to be able to build for people, then it is illegally occupied. Others you find that it's houses that have been built, then they're illegally occupied and it takes a long time to be able to get them out of those houses and evict them so that we can get the rightful owners.
And sometimes even if you evict and you want to get the rightful owners, then the rightful owners are intimidated and they start fearing to go into those houses being intimidated by those that had illegally occupied and are refusing for their rightful owners to take them in. So you find those houses ... then we end up sitting with them, maybe protecting them, putting security so that they're not continuously illegally occupied, and they remain unoccupied. Then duplication of projects as well as duplication of approved beneficiaries in some of the municipalities. What we have found is that in instances where municipalities, because the list of allocation is sitting with municipalities, you find that when you give them to say them as allocate, they then remove people who are supposed to qualify. They put their people, and this I must say, happens across party lines. It's
a concern that I've been raising, including some of the political parties when they take over municipalities, for example, they arrive and stop projects from happening. This I had to deal with even including issuing a media statement calling against councillors who had just been elected in November 2021 who arrived in municipalities, found contractors on-site building, and then chased them out and that's why we end up with some of these incomplete projects.
Then the last one is poor contract and project management by contractors. So this is one of the things that I want to highlight for the current financial year, we have targeted 496 projects ... [Inaudible.] ... approximately 1 191 sites will be serviced and 2 107 houses contracted. The total amount of funds allocated in this financial layer to unblock projects is approximately R426 million. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu I M SILEKU: Mphathiswa mandibulele ngengcaciso ethe vetshe.
English:
So, one of the issues that you have not mentioned is the issue of land invasion and the illegal occupation of units.
Unfortunately, we have seen it happen a year before 2016 when some of our colleagues ... specialise in pushing people to do the wrong thing saying they must invade the land and they must occupy the structures without being the beneficiaries because they wanted votes. So we are going to 2024 and is this going to happen again? And where the same parties are going to do the same thing and then it's going to have an effect ... it's going to have an impact in terms of the housing projects.
So Minister, what I want to know is how prevalent is the challenge of land invasions and illegal occupation of structures in relation to the blocked projects? And how is the department going to respond to this challenge specifically to prohibit such actions from happening again, especially in poor municipalities where I come from in Theewaterskloof where government land has been illegally occupied and there's no development, and people have lost jobs opportunities because certain parties and some of them are even in your Cabinet don't act against their members and some of them were wearing red. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, hon Chairperson, hon Sileku, I did indicate that part of the problem is land invasions and also issues of invasion of buildings. We must,
all of us, it's our responsibility to condemn those who do it but I've said to some of my colleagues, maybe one of the things that we must do is to get the person who's leading the evasion to be arrested. Perhaps that will be an issue that deters people because sometimes these people are vulnerable communities and some of them collect money. Where you'd find when you go to this illegally occupied land, they tell you that I paid R1 500 ... I paid R5 000 to be able to get in here.
So we must say to the people, if you can find somebody who's leading an illegal invasion of land, please give me the details I would like to go and open ... and call the Hawks to assist me because this is just a disruption of planning. It is something that must not be tolerated or accepted at all. Thank you very much.
Mr A ARNOLDS: House Chairperson, which steps of intervention has the Minister taken to protect officials that are doing oversight in provinces where there are construction mafias or where they are being threatened when they are doing their work when it comes to unblocking projects? Please provide details, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Arnolds, what ... [Inaudible.] ... a decision, firstly, was to say where there are instances where members of our department or anyone else is threatened, they need to report so that we can request the intervention from the security cluster or the Minister of Police. It's unfortunate because in some of the areas we are provided support ... [Inaudible.] ... as you say, the colleagues who are working on the disaster in KwaZulu-Natal had to face quite a number of challenges including that of one person being killed. We reported to the police and requested support.
So in other instances, you'd find that as members go onsite, what we do is provide security with them so that they can be able to ... so, because these are sensitive matters that require protection of individuals and workers, I would not detail in which areas do we have them protected so that we do not continue to compromise their safety. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair, hon Minister, for all your efforts and the security and what you are currently doing with regard to the blocked housing projects, when do you anticipate will the current blocked housing projects be unblocked? Is there a timeline? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Du Toit, yes, we have given ourselves a timeframe of three years in terms of unblocking the projects and we have allocated funds per financial year so that we can be able to conclude that and that is of the projects that we have identified that we are hoping that we should be able to have control in the systems and ensure that we do not continue to have blockages of projects as we go forward.
Otherwise, it means this timeframe would've to be extended beyond what we are saying in three years. We just want to make sure that we improve on project management and also oversight of our projects so that we are able to deal with the current figures and backlog that we have. Thank you very much.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Chairperson and thank you very much, Minister, for your responses, in the initial response you raised the challenges around the unblocking of the blocked projects. How many of the blocked housing projects are, firstly, due to contractual disputes between the contractors and the government? Secondly, due to poor workmanship? and thirdly, the depletion of resources before the projects could be completed, and what is the plan of the department in this regard? Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: My apologies, hon Chairperson, I started speaking without unmuting, I do not have specified ... which one fall within which ... what I know
... I can give figures per province in terms of the blocked projects because you find one in this province has this ... so we have not clustered them. We just put them together and identify these are the problems that are causing that.
So not specifically ... what we are seeing was to try and see in terms of the trend over years, for example, if you look at the Eastern Cape, just between 2021 and now we have found that in 2021, 51 would've been having a problem, and the changes then need to move to 83, and then it fluctuates as we intervene. So I do not have the figures, my apologies, Chair, specifically because we did not focus on saying these projects and cluster them to say overall we just said, Okay, what are the major problems? And then we started identifying them in terms of all the other areas and then say, provinces let's unblock these projects. Thank you very much.
Question 182:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, the national Department of Human Settlements implemented the Upgrading of Informal Settlement Programme and the Informal
Settlement Upgrading Partnership in terms of grants that we are providing, aimed at ensuring the provision of basic services in informal settlements.
In the current financial year, there are at least
1 181 informal settlements provided with basic services by both provinces and municipalities through the Informal Settlement Upgrading Partnership Grant.
In the upgrading of informal settlements, an incremental approach was adopted. As we do this work in terms of the upgrading of informal settlements ... is that ... [no audio]
... services to permanent engineering services that are provided on each site.
Challenges that have been experienced in the upgrading of informal settlements include capacity to plan and manage infrastructure projects, pipeline planning, social facilitation where we find quite a number of communities not co-operating when we want to engage with them. For example, you would have informal settlements situated in an area where it’s not supposed to. Let me take the Western Cape situation. You have a community that is situated in an informal settlement called COVID-19. The other one is in ...
[Inaudible.] Engagements were held with them, indicating that they needed to move. They refused to move until they were able to see the floods. Those are some of the challenges in terms of informal settlements.
Now, you are required to have social facilitators to come and engage communities. I can safely say that if you are to engage social facilitators, they will not have fewer than
250 meetings before you can even get a go-ahead and an agreement. As partnership, we have agreed to have what we call a social compact in these communities, where they must sign and agree to the implementation process upfront so that when we are working down the line they do not renege.
Informal settlements ... formalisation allocates addresses to informal dwellings as part of a crime prevention strategy.
Additionally, the department is investing in the programme to provide ... [Inaudible.] ... social amenities such as early childhood development centres, community information centres and where feasible, business incubation centres. This approach is informed by the fact that communities spend an extended period in an informal settlement during the upgrading process.
Lastly, the livelihood of communities residing in informal settlements and access to economic opportunities that are ... dividend of the upgrading process ...
So, the incorporation of economic opportunities ... as we do this work ... making sure that the locals benefit but also understanding that our responsibility is not just providing a house but ensuring that there are social amenities within those communities. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, has the government considered stricter control measures against the illegal occupation of residential land as part of mitigating
... the proliferation of unplanned settlements? If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Maleka. As I said earlier on, we continue to be worried about the illegal occupation of land and buildings, especially of houses that we are building for the most vulnerable communities.
What we have done in terms of the law ... The law actually gives municipalities the power to be able to evict when this
occupation happens, especially of land. From national ... it’s difficult to see that land has been illegally occupied in a particular municipality but the local authorities are closer to the space and should be able to assist us to ensure that, within their legal framework ... to evict people. From our side as the national department, we continue to advocate this because we bear the brunt of this illegal occupation of land and we bear the brunt of this illegal occupation of buildings and all that, because eventually when we want to develop and when we want to do ... and we are requested to provide support in terms of these informal settlements, with most of them originating from the point of an illegal occupation of land
... Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, the Integrated Urban Development Framework, IUDF, and the IUDF implementation plan identify informal settlement upgrading as a targeted priority. A key action in the IUDF implementation plan is to identify priority informal settlements in targeted municipalities, package development interventions and facilitate social compacts for the upgrading of the priority informal settlements.
I would like to know whether the department can provide a list of the priority informal settlements and if details of the development initiatives have been implemented in these settlements to facilitate their upgrade? If not, why not? If so, please provide details.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Hadebe. I think we will be able to provide that. I do not have the figures now because this is a statistical question which is following ... which I did not
... it’s not written. I will be able to provide ... I do know the round figure. As I said, for this financial year we are targeting 1 181 informal settlements. We will be able to provide the details to hon Hadebe in terms of where these informal settlements are ... [no audio] ... the figures and the areas, per informal settlement, to say that with regard to this one, this is where it is located and in terms of the phases of the upgrading, this is where they are. We will be able to supplement that. I do not have that information but it is available in the department.
Mr D R RYDER: Minister, the number of informal settlements is growing daily due to land invasions and I think you’ve covered this in your response and also in the first follow-up
question. You also spoke about the law that the municipalities have, but in many instances municipalities are actually prevented from stopping land invasions due to the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act, the very law that you indicated that they have. The onerous conditions that the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act places on municipalities, both implicitly but also through the interpretation of the Act by the courts ... municipalities are then faced with the prospect of either providing services to these settlements at great expense and in difficult circumstances caused by the unplanned settlement or leaving the people without services.
Minister, will you support the DA’s efforts to amend the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act to enable municipalities to act and to stop land invasions, and then provide service delivery in a planned and structured manner? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Ryder. With regard to the first issue, I don’t think that the current law does not allow for municipalities to be able to evict. One example, if you are to study ... there are certain municipalities that have done
well. During COVID we saw an expansion of what we call informal settlements. If you go and look in the City of Ekurhuleni — it was Mayor Masina there — you would see that they have been able to curb and prevent the illegal occupation of land. So ... [Inaudible.] ... tools and there is a legal framework. We just have to do it.
Where I disagree with the DA government is in terms of the process. It is where they had to lose in court ... the City of Cape Town in the manner that it was done. This was within the framework of the UN Commission on Human Rights and also in terms of our international statute. So, whatever we do when dealing with the illegal occupation of land or if we are to deal with evictions, it must be done in ... [no audio.] ... dignity. As a country, we have committed ourselves to ensuring that we protect human rights, especially in terms of how we do things. So that’s why part of the problem with the proposal that comes from the DA is that it appears inhumane. I had a conversation, even with some international colleagues, where we looked at what is being proposed, and because we are dealing ... Remember, just recently ... a few weeks ago, I had the director of UN Habitat in the country and we launched the global action plan to eradicate informal settlements and slum dwellings, and part of the global ... especially civil society
was very vocal about protecting human rights when we do legal evictions. If we are to do it within the framework that is required and enhance the areas where there are gaps, I would definitely support. However, not currently ... what was done by the City of Cape Town, which even led the Department of Human Settlements to say that we do not support it in the manner that it’s being done. Hon Ryder knows what I’m talking about.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Minister. Hon delegates and fellow Members of Parliament, in particular in the NCOP, we have now come to the end of questions to the Minister of Human Settlements. I’m sure you would agree with me that we should thank the hon Minister for availing herself to answer the questions. At this point we will move on to questions directed to the Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture. We are trying to make some arrangements so that he is not inconvenienced — because he is travelling — wherever he is in the Northern Cape. The first question that is directed to the Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture is Question 177, which is a question on the audit of sports, arts and culture facilities. This question is from hon M E Nchabeleng. Hon Minister?
Question 177:
The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, thanks to hon Nchabeleng. I just showed my video here Chair, and I switched it off because of poor network signal. I hope that will be accepted on your side. Hon Nchabeleng asked a very important question and I must say that at the peak of COVID-19, every sector of society was impacted negatively. More so, in the creative and sporting sector. The provinces have not indicated vandalism during this period. Provision and maintenance of sporting facilities, as the hon member would know, is the exclusive responsibility of a province and local government, as outlined in Schedule 5 section (a)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, as you may realise, I am connecting from a car. There is network challenge in the village. Minister, thanks for the response to my first question. My follow up question is that has the department considered the public private partnership model of ownership and management of some of the profitable sporting arts and culture facilities as part of upscaling their efficiency and profitability? If there is such a programme, can you share some highlights with us? Give us the relevant details. If there is no such a plan, what alternative plan do you have to
make these facilities self-sustainable? Thanks a lot, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon Nchabeleng - through you Chairperson. As we said hon Nchabeleng, we will be led, in this instance, by people who are constitutionally responsible for the facilities, especially sporting facilities. I would talk more to the facilities related to arts and culture. Some of those facilities like museums which are within the purview of the national government, that has not attracted the PPPs and as a result, they are solemn and exclusively under the care of the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture. Even though I know that there are some of these facilities belongs to different spheres of government. I think as far as the sporting facilities, that really is the domain of local government and provincial government. Thank you so much.
Mr M R BARA: Thank you Minister for your response. But my follow up is related to the fact that vandalism of sports facilities has been a major problem during lockdown. Breaking in club houses, basins ripped off the wall, roof panels torn out and equipment stolen has been some of the results of it. In one sport complex in Kraaifontein, cables worth R300 000
were ripped off. There are many areas that have been negatively affected as such acts of vandalism and theft in different communities. Minister, have there been arrests or repercussions for those responsible for such infrastructural damages and heinous acts of theft. Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon Bara.
As I have said, there hasn’t been any report to the department, even if it’s a point of just informing, because this is the area that really belongs to local government. It means that whatever challenges they had, they knew that they were going to be able to deal with it. So as in so far as we are concerned, no such vandalism was reported, because even if they were to be reported, I think it would have been from a point of view of just informing us. Just for the sake of us knowing. Understanding that this area is not the province of the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture. Thank you, Chair.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Minister, I heard you when you said that part of the infrastructures in municipalities is not your responsibility. Most of these infrastructures in municipalities are the ones that are facing lots of challenges. I just wanted to know that as national department, what do you do when you find such infrastructures which are
neglected by municipalities, especially in rural areas and townships?
The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: House Chair, thank
you to hon Mathevula. No, as we said, we can only say something in instances where we have intervened. For instance, in communities to have through the municipal infrastructure grant having certain facilities. We can only intervene there. But remember that the ecosystem of local government has its counterpart at a national level, which is Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs. So it’s definitely isn’t something which the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture would be immersing itself in from that point of view. Thank you so much, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, I would like to know whether you can give details as to how load shedding has affected the state theatre in the facilities of the theatre, and whether you can provide details as to whether Eskom has exempted any theatres from load shedding. If not, why not? If so, please provide the relevant details. Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Let me follow that up. It’s totally a new question, Chair. Definitely not related
to ... but because the member has asked, we will follow up at the right time in that particular question. Thanks so much, Chair.
Question 169:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: To hon Bara, no. No
staff members of my department nationally were involved in the alleged misused of funds allocated to Winnie Mandela Museum in a place which was formerly known as Brandfort but Winnie Mandela today, no.
Mr M R BARA: Minister, the money that was allocated was allegedly misused in service providers appointed fraudulently. Now what measures have you put in place to curb such fraudulent activities to ensure that such projects and many more are not seen as cash cows? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: As I said, Chair,
thank you, through you there is nothing. The department I am leading is not involve in any way. We have no knowledge on the alleged misused of funds, nothing whatsoever. Our interaction and in building of that particular museum is squeaky clean.
So, maybe this question belongs somewhere. But the department
I am leading and members of that department were not involved in any alleged misused of funds, whatsoever. Thank you, Chair.
Ms M N GILLION: Greetings to the Minister. Hon Minister, whilst we respect the Constitution of principle of presumption of innocence until proven guilty by the court, we equally salute the law enforcement agencies for bringing some suspects associated with this project to book. The question is therefore, Minister, based on the lessons of this project what is the future plans of the department to prevent the recurrence of this abuse? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks, hon Gillion. As I responded to the earlier question by the hon Bara its going to be difficult to engage with this question as I said maybe the colleagues and hon members may want to talk to the province of Free State but at the point when my department got involved to the end, there is no misused of funds, which actually took place, and therefore, it would be a difficult one for me to answer because it’s really not directed to the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, which I am leading nationally. Thank you, Chair.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chair ...
Setswana:
Ke a leboga, Tona.
English:
Minister, to date, seven corrupt government officials have arrested for defrauding the state money, which was meant for the Winnie Mandela Museum. Does the Minister agree that looting of state funds is part of the culture of the ANC government as the ruling party never seems to acknowledge its looting? I thank you, Chair.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMIDLALO, UBUCIKO NAMASIKO: Hawu,
liyashumayela ilungu elihloniphekile, lishumayela impela. Lungu elihloniphekile ungashumayela okushumayelayo kodwa uma sibuka umbuzo obuziwe, lo mbuzo ukhuluma ngendaba yemali ekhwabanisiwe. Manje uma ikhwabanisiwe le mali, ngikubeke kwacaca bha ukuthi asithinteki ndawo njengoMnyango kaZwelonke. Lena ke ayishoyo, angiyazi ukuthi iphuma kuphi kodwa ke wonke umuntu unelungelo lokubeka umbono wakhe. Engingakusho ukuthi uhulumeni uyalwa nenkohlakalo la ivela khona, sonke isikhathi uyalwa nayo. Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, I will be taking hon De Bruyn’s question since he has got a challenge with connectivity. May I proceed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, you can proceed.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, it’s come to my attention that the department has requested the Masilonyana Municipality to cover the cost of two employees and security for the museum. Since the municipality is already cash strapped why is it expected for them to carry the cost of employment and security for the museum when it is the department responsibility? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: No, hon member, it’s
not department responsibility. It’s a museum in a township and it is belonging to that particular township, the local government there and the province. All what we did as the national department when they couldn’t build the museum we build it. So, we are not going to be asked to do more than what we did. Where we did even if we say ourselves we did well by intervening, we were intervening there. It belongs to that spheres of government. Thank you.
Question 178:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon Chair and thank you hon member. Schedule 5, Part A and B of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa leads provincial recreation and amenities as well as provincial sports facilities as functional areas of exclusively provincial legislative competence and local government. In 2016-17, the then Department of Sport and Recreation started with implementation of a ring-fenced municipal infrastructure grant, MIG, funding programme to local municipalities for construction and upgrading of sport and recreation facilities.
This was after the department initiated the process of ring- fencing a portion of 5% earmarked for sport infrastructure in the municipal infrastructure grant. I must pause here, Chair and ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Ooh, it my time over? Is my time up? [Interjections.] I am saying that I must pause and make a point to the hon member that part of the challenge with sporting facilities is that that which needs to be allocated to sport at the local government level get taken for
other things which people see as important than sporting facilities. That is why this move of ring-fencing this 5% to ensure that there is no misuse of this for building sports facilities.
Unfortunately, this practice compromise delivery of sports facilities, especially in previously disadvantaged areas like townships and rural areas, hence the perpetuation of the racial inequalities and urban rural divide. But since the implementation of the ring-fenced MIG programme for sports facilities in 2016-17, the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture has so far managed to allocate 193 sports infrastructure benefiting a total number of 178 local municipalities. That is over and above knowing which competence is this. And the budget spent between 2016-17 to 2022-23 is R1,98 billion. All these projects are implemented in the townships and the rural areas as this is also part of fundamental requirements of the MIG conditions. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon Minister. The first follow-up question is going to be asked by the hon Ntsube. The ANC- hon Ntsube?
Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. The Minister I appreciate the response. But as a matter of fact, sporting, cultural and artistic sectors have self-regulatory bodies that all claim commitment towards transformation to ensure that participation will reflect the demographics of this country. Are there institutional systems and structures within the department to monitor transformation in this sector, if not, why not, and if so, Minister please furnish this session with the relevant details. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you so much hon Chair and thank you hon Ntsube. The point you are raising is a fundamental one – the point about transformation. You would recall hon member that the monitoring and evaluation of transformation is closely scrutinised under the banner of Eminent Persons Group, and this monitoring is premised on a two-pronged approach to transformation. One is what the hon member is referring to, which is self-regulatory, and two, the one of quota system. What happened in the past is that transformation was only monitored through a quota system and a lot of protest and so on were raised particularly on this.
This two-pronged approach also gives the federations to do their own homework. And if you can ask me, I will tell you that this has not yielded much fruits we would have wanted to see in terms of transformation. As a result, some of the steps which are being taken is to try and force transformation here. As you know that there is financial support that federations get and so on. One of the areas of wielding the stick is the issue of withdrawing some of this. But I agree with the hon member that self-regulatory bodies alone have not also yielded any positive fruits. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, I would want to ask whether the department has been able to monitor the employment of local staff from the various municipalities to perform the functions in line with the upkeep of the facilities in their areas. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon
Hadebe. No, we have not done that, hon member. We would at all material times try to stay in our lane as it relates to issues of the staff and so on, particularly at the local level. Where we come in handy is when we give conditions for what we would have paid for - for instance, the ring-fenced municipal infrastructure grant itself. There are a lot of conditions we
put and one of those is to ensure that when it comes to sport and sport development, there is a portion earmarked specifically for women development in sport in all the major sporting codes in our country. But so far as the employment of the staff is concerned, we have not been party to that. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon Minister. The third follow-up question is going to be asked by M O Moletsane of the EFF.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you House Chairperson. It’s the hon Mokause.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay. Continue, ma’am.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Minister, do the plans which you are referring to include the reintroduction of sport in rural and township’s primary and high schools. You would agree with me that sport has actually collapsed in primary schools and high schools. So, to tackle these challenges from an early age, at least sport would have to be encouraged at that level of schooling. If so, please provide this sitting with the timeline of this particular ... [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, Chair and thank you hon Mokause. Chair, the hon member is asking a very fundamental question – which is school sport. School sport is the bedrock for sport development in this country. It is supposed to be the feeder to national federations. So, if school sport is not operating maximally, then you get the kind of outcomes which you have noticed in some of the national federations of sport. So, it is a very important point. It’s because of this that the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, together with the Department of Basic Education agreed on a memorandum of understanding to ensure that school sport is reviving schools and is working.
As we speak, school sport is taking place in the country. I would agree with the member again that perhaps not at the level where we would be proud of, but we see some pockets of excellence. For instance, this week the under-16 from this process distinguished themselves, both boys and girls at Edendale Technical High School, for instance, in one township in KwaZulu-Natal, Umgungundlovu has excelled to the level of the continent. So, they are now under Fifa and they will be playing in the continental competition. I am just citing this as one example that even in townships you will have those excellences. But when it comes to school sport, where things
have been happening is 10% within the schooling system and that has been happening at the highest level. It is your former private schools and former model C schools and so on. The emphasis which we are making now is to say that we should be deliberate about this – particularly in township and villages’ schools. That is why we have the sport ambassadors to compliment what is there because what is there currently has not reached the level where we see a beehive of activities in our schools. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): The fourth follow-up question is going to be asked by the hon D C Christians of the DA.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, you historically white and urban areas had better sports facilities and resources. However, 28 years down the line, many unfinished inferior and dilapidated sports facilities are still to be found across the country despite your department having allocated millions of rands and tenders to the improvement of these facilities. Many of those projects that you mentioned earlier, Minister, are not completed or are completed below specifications. Why do tenders continue to be allocated to cadres who are unable to complete construction of
sporting facilities? What is your department doing to rectify these processes? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Nyambose?
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair and hon
Christians, thank you for the question. The infrastructure where the department has been complementing what is a constitutional responsibility of the local sphere of government. Those facilities have been kept and I have mentioned their numbers here across the country and they have been kept well. When we hand them over to communities, one of the things we raise is the fact that they should be taken care of, which is happening.
The broader area of facilities ... you will be surprised hon member that local government itself has been able to build good sporting facilities over and above what you are saying - in some instances where we have inferior levels of sporting facilities in our communities. I think that the more consciousness we are deepening in society, particularly in local government that sport is important as the public would need to be focused on and not seen as an add-on, the better.
Part of the problem is this culture of thinking that the area of sport, arts and culture is just an add-on. And people do not understand the importance of this space that it is in this space more than anywhere else where you will successfully forge social cohesion in our society – where you will forge a nation. Therefore, undermining and looking down upon facilities which are aimed at uniting our people is not beneficial for anybody. Thank you, Chair.
Question 162:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Yes. Thank you very much, Chair and thanks to, hon Dlamini. To answer him, the department disbursed relief funds over two financial years being relief to the creatives giving the challenge brought about by COVID-19 pandemic. The department is not aware of any pending payments for that intervention. An amount of 59 793 individuals benefitted in the three phases of the relief funding. More than 30 000 people’s jobs were secured during that period. A total of 1 061 enterprises benefitted. A total of R804,6 million directly benefitted creatives and athletes. I am saying, Chair, boldly so, that I know that we didn’t reach everybody but this is no small measure in ensuring and showing that this government cares for its athletes, for its
creatives. Contrary to the unpopular believe that government is doing nothing for this sector a lot has been done.
As I speak now the department through its agencies is dispensing the third phase of Presidential Employment Stimulus programme, PESP, to both creatives and athletes in this country. So, I think, Chair, we can safely say that this government cares and it’s not a slogan. People will talk out of ignorance not knowing what the government is doing. Thank you so much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon Minister. The first follow up question is going to be asked by, hon Dlamini, EFF.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson, is hon Mokause.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Minister, if the department working on ways to archives work done by local artists and where can this be accessed by the public if there is work archives. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: I am sorry, Chair,
perhaps I would really plead with the hon member on the question again if she can repeat herself because I heard its archives but I didn’t get her well. Thanks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay. Hon Mokause, can you please repeat your question?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Minister, is the department working on ways to archives work done by local artists? If there is work archives where can we access this as public? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Oh, no, I hear now,
Chair, even though it’s a new question. But let me respond this way to the hon member, we are engaging artists from different domains be there in performing arts, be there in the area of arts and craft and so on and so forth. Firstly, with performing arts, we get into the space of music, for instance, and meet different genres of music and lead us thereof with an aim of emphasising this point the member is rising of archives and keeping records for different genres. To date, we have met with the leadership from Reggae, from traditional music, from hippo and so on and so forth. And the result thereof is that already we have built a museum and open it early this year of
hip hop and we will be doing same with other genres but when it comes to areas of arts and craft, for instance, we direct our artists to the Art Bank, which is located in the Free State, Oliewenhuis. This is where we encourage all the artists that they don’t have to use their garages for their art work or the boot of their cars. They just have to approach the Art Bank and be able to display their art work there so that those who want to purchase them purchase them, those who want to loan them loan them and so on and because many artists are benefiting out of that, Chair. Thank you so much.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Minister, the truth is that your department has led down the artists in this country. At the beginning of this year artists were still waiting for payments and some have lost their livelihoods as well as their homes. The problem is obviously administrative as well as lack of caring. What mechanism have you put in place to ensure the third phase of relief funding is received timeously per artists and how will you ensure that your system do not fail the Sport, Arts and Culture industry again? Thank, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you so much, Chair, and thanks, hon Christians. Hon Christians, you are displaying a lack of grasp of what has happened. In fact, you
attempted to be part of the narrative which has no truth in it. I have just shared with you the extent to which we have gone as the department to ensure that we ease the pain and relieve the burden amongst artists and athletes during this very difficult time.
I will challenge you when you say there is somebody who could have been done better than what we have done giving the resources which we have coming closer to a billion rends just for relief is no small measure. Securing and protecting job losses in the sector is no small measure. The people who would have been benefitted including their organisations and enterprises, you can’t say that that’s a small measure.
There would be hiccups in any situation where you have to disburse funds for a number of reasons. You have to ensure that this person who is supposed to benefit is not benefiting in other government grants so on and so forth. It’s a lot of things which is involved here. But in the final analysis the department has been very concerned with the livelihoods of the artists and athletes and to the extent of what we have in our disposal we did our best. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): The third follow up question is going to be asked by, hon De Bruyn, FF Plus.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, Du Toit will handle the question. Thank you. Hon Minister, referring to the COVID-19 Relief Grant payment you mentioned how many people benefited from funds that were paid out. Where any of the avail funds lost due to theft and losses of payments to unqualified beneficiaries? And if any grant monies were actually lost on the account of the above, which measurement were in place to recover the said money and how will officials be held accountable? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, Chair, and hon member, Du Toit. This lie, hon member, was peddled. Is part of information peddling. Was peddled so much during the period of COVID-19 of money theft, R300 million disappeared. How can R300 million disappeared and you don’t know where it is. No, the money went into the pockets of the artists and the athletes. That’s where the money is if it’s still there. That’s where it went. And if hon member could have taken time just to look at the outcome of the process we have put in place of forensic investigation the member would be knowing by now that there was no money which was stolen.
Nobody stole money. Money went to the pockets of the artists and athletes.
What would have happened is that the people who were there, the officials, for instance, of National Arts Council over allocated funds to people who were applying. That was the scene which happened. And when the new board came and corrected that people got their money. This R804,6 million I am talking about it didn’t disappeared in thin air. It is in the pockets of artists and athletes. Thanks, Chair.
Ms N NDONGENI: Hon Minister, what is the position of the with regards to the dependants of the artists who unfortunately passed on during the COVID-19 pandemic whilst awaiting their relief grants? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks you, Chair and thanks, hon Ndongeni. No, hon member, nobody was guaranteed anything. Not a single person. People applied and their applications were looked into and those who were supposed or made it through the applications got their money. And those who did not qualified for this or that reason did not get their money. So, there was nobody and no one was geared towards getting something. It was a matter of application. Now
application its either succeed or not succeed. Thank you very much, Chair.
Question 171:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon member Bara, there is significant progress made regarding the preparations of Netball World Cup, 2023. The following is progress on key delivery areas: the Netball World Cup board has been set up and incorporated in terms of the Companies Act; the local organising committee headed by the tournament director is in place and other key human resource appointments have been effected at an operational level; the Cape Town International Convention Centre, CTICC, has been secured as the venue and seating out plans have been finalized; training venues have been identified; accommodation and transport plans for teams have been confirmed; accreditation and security plans are progressing well with the assistance of the State Security Agency, SSA, and the SA Police Service; walkabouts with city services and provincial Emergency Medical Services, EMS, has been concluded; the first net joint presentation was done through relevant role-players; a marketing agency has been appointed and is finalizing the following plans: international, domestic and public relations plan; the
official World Cup logo was unveiled in June 2021; the official ball has been revealed and named Kganya in July 2022; the official mascot, Letsatsi, was launched at Africa regional qualifiers in Pretoria in September 2022; the timing, scoring and results system has been procured and evaluated including the umpire alert system; local technical officials have been trained through Champion Data capture system in preparation for the World Cup; the first tier broadcast sponsors have been secured; World Netball has sent applications of qualified countries for commitment to participate in the event; and player agreements have been circulated to teams by World Netball for commitment to this event.
Once all the teams have confirmed with the World Netball, then South Africa will start communicating with the teams on operational matters. The draw will take place on 30 November. The first phase of ticket sales will go on sale in December 2022, which will be the hospitality and tour packages.
Netball South Africa series, in January 2023, where South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and England will be contesting has been confirmed as a dry-run for World Cup.
Trophy Tour is confirmed to begin in KwaZulu-Natal in May 2023. The plan is in place to tour selective provinces.
Pricing and ticketing has been discussed and finalized with World Netball, 2023, board.
In addition, we have ensured that part of the campaign, which is Netball Friday, everybody is given a T-shirt. Members of Parliament were given T-shirts and I hope all of us are still wearing our netball T-shirts on Fridays, starting with the Chair – I hope she wears hers on Fridays as part of Netball Friday - Thank you, Chair.
Mr M R BARA: Thank you, House Chairperson, Minister, not all of us have seen the T-shirts, let alone wearing them. We don’t have them and therefore we have nothing to wear.
Minister, thank you for the information and update. Obviously, that’s an indication that we have not heard that information in this House. My one question is: has your department forged any kind of partnerships with other government departments to promote local cultural events for international audiences to showcase the diversity of the country during the Netball World Cup? If yes, which initiatives have been targeted for showcasing? Thank you, Minister and House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon member and thanks Chair, I must double check what the hon member is saying because my information was that all Members of Parliament were provided with the T-shirts.
The hon member is asking an important question. What I didn’t mention ... [Interjections.]
Mr J J LONDT: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, hon member, what is the point of order? [Interjections.]
Mr J J LONDT: House Chairperson, may I go ahead?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, hon member.
Mr J J LONDT: House Chairperson, since you are chairing this meeting, I think it is important that you take it upon yourself to make sure which member got that tender or got the responsibility to make sure T-shirts are there because obviously somebody chowed another tender.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, that’s not a point of order. Can you please continue, hon Mthethwa.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, as I said,
Chair, I would have to be told a different story, but I understand that all Members of Parliament got T-shirts for the World Cup. The hon member said I must check this. He asked an important question of what needs to be done. What I didn’t mention is that Cabinet discussed this matter and has been seized with it since we were bidding to host some four or five years ago. After winning the bid, Cabinet has set up an interministerial committee which meets regularly to look at and monitor progress on the preparations for the Netball World Cup.
I must say that this is a historic event because it is taking place in South Africa, and for the first time on the African continent since its inception in 1963. It definitely has to be a perfect opportunity to show the world what we can do.
The different departments and portfolios are coming with a lot of different suggestions including tourist attraction areas and many others. It is point which is being addressed by government to ensure that when people land in South Africa
they are able to be exposed to other parts of the country and not only the Western Cape in Cape Town even though the tournament would be in Cape Town. Thank you, House Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, thank you. May I take the question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes ma’am, you can.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Minister, considering the high youth unemployment rate in this country, which measures have been put in place to specifically include the youth in any employment opportunities over the duration of this World Cup? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair, I think we must understand the event itself is an event which is going to be in an enclosed space, which is the CTICC, and because of that, whatever would be happening, would be around the precincts of the CTICC. The level of employment which will happen there is going to be minimal. It is not going to be massive like we would have seen during the Fifa World Cup where we moved from one province to the next, from one stadium to the next, as it were. So, people
will be confined in the Cape Town International Convention Centre. It is the people around there who would benefit because we are not going to have a lot of other people except those who would be guiding tourists, and so on, would be the ones benefitting, but I don’t think and the nature of this tournament can be compared to other tournaments which are big in nature and involve a lot of people. Even people who would be there will be a very small number as compared to the stadium we have for football. Thanks, House Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, I want to know whether the Minister can be able to provide an update on the efforts between the department and Netball SA with regard to keeping the sport safe and clean especially when it comes to matters like doping in light of the preparations for the 2023 Netball World Cup? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, House Chair and thanks to hon Hadebe, South Africa as part of the World Antidoping Association, as well as our own South African antidoping body. It is something which is being followed up all the time especially when there’s going to be big national and international events like the one which is going to take place. Generally, the South African Institute
for Drug-Free Sports, SAIDS, is very much on the ball in so far as this is concerned, particularly from the conscientisation in the education of our athletes. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Ms M N GILLION: Thank you, House Chairperson, hon Minister, I have listened to you answering the question asked by hon Mokause, and also taking into account that it won’t be such a big event such as Soccer World Cup 2010. My question on this is: regarding your policy interventions for the Netball World Cup, how will you ensure that increased ... [Inaudible.] ... especially women, youth and people living with disabilities will benefit out of this event, Minister, learning from the lessons of the 2010 World cup? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon Gillion, through you, House Chair, hon member you would recall that even with Fifa World Cup ... these world bodies are the ones that lead particularly in what would be the benefits - I am talking about real benefits of tournaments - The answer to your question would be similar to the one I shared with hon Mokause that there is a situation where as much as possible, the local organising committee would be pushing all the things that are important to us including
tourism and general employment in other sectors where possible during the tournament. As I said, this is not going to be a massive thing. If you understand the Cape Town International Convention Centre, its size, and so on ... perhaps revenue would come through other means like subscribing on broadcasting of the tournament itself. Thank you, House Chair.
Question 179:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, yes, the
department has the mechanism to ensure that young girls from the disadvantaged backgrounds who have the potential to become great sports, arts and culture stars receive the necessary support.
The department’s financial support to the big 4 federations, that is cricket, football, netball and rugby is solely for girls; that’s women’s programme.
The department also ensures that the business plans submitted by national federations for annual grant funding reflects programmes for girls or women. And in addition, programmes directly implemented by the department such as schools sport, ensures that there is minimum 50% participation of girls. In most instances the participation of girls is more than that of
boys. The schools sport programme is one good example of how the department’s interventions are benefitting the girls.
The approach is that in all codes, for every boys’ team there must be a girls’ team during national championships. This means that intra and inter school leagues in the requisite one to three schools, which are rural and township schools, participate as various teams and are selected to represent their circuits, districts and ultimately the national schools sport championships.
The platform of the championships ensures that excelling young girls are also exposed to talent scouts and selectors from participating federations. Talented learners are identified and supported through the academies of sports in the provinces to further develop and manage talent.
As part of national schools’ sport championship there are qualifiers for Confederation of African Football, CAF, Pan African Schools football championships, which is in its second year and under the auspices of Federation of International Football Association, Fifa, where under 15 boys’ and girls’ winning schools represent South Africa.
Like I said earlier on, Chair, Edendale High School from Pietermaritzburg, KwaZulu-Natal, won the under 15 girls title and will be representing South Africa for the second time in a row at the CAF Pan African Schools Championships later this year.
In addition, women in boxing programme is one of the programmes that aims to focus on the needs and development of talent and leadership of women in boxing.
To further ensure that women of all ages, especially from disadvantaged backgrounds that have potential to be great have opportunities and to address the inequality in sport participation, the department is formulating the women in sport policy. In fact, that policy has gone through all the federations, has gone through the provinces, is now within government’s technical processes and is soon going to be passed by government. Thanks, Chair.
Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Minister, in the light of shared responsibilities of sports, arts and culture between the three spheres of government: Is there an integrated national plan to mobilise the support of the three spheres as part of upscaling government’s support towards young girls who are aspirant
artists, sports and cultural professionals? If not, why not? If yes, what are the relevant details? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, well, as
we said ... hon member Mokause did ask this question earlier on and we did say that schools sport is the bedrock for successful sport development in the country.
The three spheres of government collaborate in ensuring that this bedrock is really nurtured to ensure that it produces good results as we move forward. So, for us it’s important and it has shown that our cooperation at all levels is paying dividends. Thanks, Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Minister, young talented children from rural municipalities often encounter exploitation of talent and are forced to move closer to metropolitan areas in order to gain access to bigger opportunity.
Which recent measures of intervention has the Minister taken in bridging the gap of access between young and upcoming sports stars and artists?
And which steps has the Minister taken to ensure that those artists have access to basic documentation such as payslips so that to prove employment and qualify for buying their intended goods? As it is also for this reason that they are not even registered with the Department of Labour for Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, deduction. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, as we
said, the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, which we insisted that it be rein fenced, is mainly aimed at ensuring that sport prospers, particularly in rural areas.
You’ll notice, Chair, that this grant is only directed to district municipalities, not to metros; precisely for the reason the hon member has raised.
Also, the targeted approach of the schools sport itself is aimed at getting that very talent, raw talent, in our communities through schools’ sport as it were.
The issue about the plight of the creatives. Chair, I must say that what the hon member is raising is correct, it talks to the less regulatory environment of the creatives.
That is why, Chair, we pin our hopes on you as National Council of Provinces to really look into this process of passing both the Copyright Amendment Bill and the Performers Protection Bill because these talk to the regulation of the industry itself, it talks to issues of royalties, it talks to collecting agencies and so on. But also, it goes to the heart of actually protecting the creatives and their work because what we have today in the country is a gap to fill that. So, that it why it will always be seen to be lagging behind ... the industry lagging behind. And remember that it’s a sector which has multifaceted points of entry.
These Bills, for instance, the principal department for them is the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, DTIC. But we have an interest as the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture. Communications is also part of it.
So, I would add, Chair, that let’s really look into these two very fundamental Bills which are supposed to be responding to all what the creatives have gone through in this country for a long time. Thank you, Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, referring to the support for disadvantaged individuals: Does the Department of Sports, Arts
and Culture benefit from the national lottery’s fund? If so, how much per year and how much of these allocated to the promotion and development of disadvantaged individuals?
And how much is lost due to corruption and maladministration of projects such as the Limpopo Stadium where only R598 000 of an R11 million grant to be build a stadium was spent for the intended purpose? Thank you, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, the specific matter I wouldn’t be able to venture into it. But I must say that the government has been, including working with other stakeholders, ensuring that, that which needs to go to communities do go to communities.
If you look at football, for instance, in this country, Premier Soccer League, PSL, every team or any team that wins the league is given an opportunity to choose a school of their choice to deliver the sporting facilities there. And this is one programme we have been working with Nedbank in the public/private partnership together with the teams, which would have won at that particular level.
I think there is a lot of positive will out there to want to see people, particularly from disadvantaged communities, prospering. We still would want to get more from the corporate citizen to be on board like Nedbank is on board, we would need more to come and work with government. Thank you, Chair.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Minister, women are underrepresented in all sport in the country. An example is at professional levels where the nation’s main sports such as cricket, rugby and football have yet to consider establishing domestic leagues for women. This is mach contrast to England and Australia where rugby and football administrators have set professional leagues for women.
Data on the number of women and girls participating in sport are also not readily available from your department despite the requirement that all sport bodies submit membership statistics to the Department of Sport. Nor has the department set out detailed plans on how it intends to ensure equal opportunity in sport for women.
Female athletes need more funding, media coverage and opportunities in order to be on equal footing with their male counterparts.
Now, Minister, what policies and processes does your department have in place to ensure that adequate media coverage, funding and opportunities are made available to young girls in the country? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, no, what
the member is saying is not entirely true. If the member has been following development in sport, the member would know that there is something called Hollywood Bets League, for women’s football.
The department, together with SA Football Association, SAFA, started this process in 2019 and the league is growing to ensure that women participate in the league.
Hon member, you know, part of the reason why other sport codes would be ahead of some is primarily the sponsorship. In the absence of sponsorship, it becomes difficult. Let me make an example, if you look at Banyana Banyana, would be supported financially by Sasol, over years, but other corporate players are not coming to the party and that would be in contrast to men’s sport codes as it were.
So, the issue of professional leagues is important, that is why we are investing in it so that we are able to produce and reproduce this huge talent we have here in the country.
On the issue of the media, again, Chair, it’s a question of exposure, the kind of products which are aiming at is a bankable products of women’s sport so that they are also able to attract a lot of people who support it and so on.
The equal opportunities, generally, it’s what I was referring to earlier on when I said we have crisscrossed this country, we have engaged with all the federations in ensuring that we pass the policy, women in sport policy, and this policy is aimed at levelling the playing field of women in sport, they get opportunities like their male counterparts because in the absence of that we’ll find women always lagging behind. So, for us, our intervention, be it from the point of your training, of administration; even of salaries, it’s what this policy is talking about, that let’s move towards that line of gender parity across the board, particularly on sport.
So, those things, Chair, are programmes which are being implemented as we move forward to ensure that at the end of the day women are actually successful.
The future of sport, Chair, I may say, is women in sport. And we have seen with ... take Banyana Banyana, for instance, most of the players of Banyana Banyana play in big leagues in Europe, in the Americas and so on, because their talent has been spotted beyond the national borders of South Africa and therefore, it’s easy for the best of the teams in the world to take them as theirs. And that helps us as a country because it talks to social progress of women in sport and also attracting other women and girls to say there is a place in sport as women. Thank you very much, Chair.
Question 183:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me greet the hon members in the August House. Yes, our department is making progress in upgrading the country’s bulk water resource infrastructure to cope with the demand of water. The Department of Water and Sanitation is in the process of planning and implementing a range of major projects to augment the National Water Resource Infrastructure.
The department is also in the process of establishing the National Water Resource Infrastructure Agency to finance the large scale investment in the National Water Resource
Infrastructure that are required to ensure that South Africa has sufficient bulk water supply now and into the future. This will ensure that the challenge with the municipal water and sanitation service delivery are not exacerbated by a shortage of bulk water as it has happened in the cities such as Cape Town and Nelson Mandela Bay amongst others.
Chairperson, let me indicate that the department is funding bulk water infrastructure through the regional bulk water infrastructure grant ... [Inaudible.] ... facilities achievement of a package for access of bulk water and sanitation through successful execution and implementation of the bulk water project of regional significance. There are several key projects which actually are being implemented.
The Vaal River system project is but one which actually is being augmented by the expansion of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project with phase 2 being currently implemented. This will assist in making sure that Gauteng Metropolitan as well as agriculture in the lower Vaal get sufficient water. eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality will also benefit from Umkomaas water project as well as the raising of the Hazelmere Dam. Here, we are talking about Polokwane, which is among
others, where the Oliphants River water resource development is one of those projects which are being implemented.
Chairperson, while we are expecting and anticipating that there will be some rainfall which will assist us in the Nelson Mandela Bay, the department is also planning balancing the dams in the Sunday and Fish River transfer schemes. We actually believe that from the Orange River it will be able to assist us in making sure that there is water security in the Nelson Mandela Bay. Chairperson, I thank you.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Chairperson and thank you very much to the Deputy Minister for the in-depth response with regard to the upgrading of bulk water resources. Deputy Minister, given the fact that the capabilities both in terms of financial and technical resources are uneven between rural and urban municipalities: Is there any plan to assist the low income and rural with the maintenance of the bulk water resources infrastructure? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, hon Shaikh. Let me indicate that we have two grants in the department, the regional bulk water which actually are the grants that we make sure that as there are
challenges in particular of the rural municipalities, we assist in refurbishing and in the rehabilitation of bulk water resources in those challenged municipalities. I need also to indicate, hon Shaikh, that of course, that which we are giving to these municipalities it is never enough.
As the department, we are also working with the water services authorities in most of the provinces so that we can be able to make sure that we help, particularly in maintenance; in monitoring and operation of their schemes. Hon members, we believe that, as we do that it is in the interest of making sure that the economic and social issues in the rural communities are being addressed. Thanks you, Chairperson.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, we have seen water supply breakdowns in Gauteng, Nelson Mandela Bay and recently in Gamagara and in so many other provinces and municipalities in South Africa. Your department blames the water boards and the municipalities and the water boards and the municipalities blame your department. Ultimately, the buck stops with you and the Minister. The responsibility rest with you. What is the first practical steps that your department will be taking to ensure that bulk
water supply capacity keeps pace with the increased demand? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, hon member. I need to indicate that since the advent of Minister Mchunu, what we have done as a department was to look at the operations, how they have been and we said that it will no longer be that situation. We looked at the bulk infrastructure and water services infrastructure, we looked at these grants as being operationalised by the national department.
We are working very closely with the water boards to make sure that the capacity that they are having and the money that they are having should be able to assist where the intervention is required. We are also working with the water services authority throughout the country to make sure that the interventions that we are making are not intervention that will be at high level. If I were to give examples are that; we are working very close with the Mopani District and we are working very close with the Vhembe District.
This is to make sure that the challenges that have been there of projects being incomplete, of projects not delivering water
where it was supposed to go, we work with those. Also, whether it is in Gauteng or whether it is in the Nelson Mandela Bay. I can indicate that the Minister has been in the Nelson Mandela Bay when there was a projection of a zero in the Nelson Mandela Bay working, to ensure that the Impofu Dam and all the dams in that particular will work in such a way that there will never be the day zero. He even had to go to an extent of getting those who were working on day zero from Cape Town, to come and assist in the Nelson Mandela Bay.
Therefore, I would want to indicate that there is no longer a situation where there is silo operations in the department. We want to make sure that most of the municipalities, with the work and the assistant of the board, that there are strategic people who gets appointed, who can be able to work with the municipalities and with the board to can be able to deliver services and in particular, in the rural areas. Thank you, Chairperson.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Xandla xa Holobye. Holobye, vanhu va Giyani va ri ndzi mi byela leswaku ku fikela sweswi va ha pfumala mati. Kutani-ke, ndzi ta eka xivutiso xa mina.
English:
Is there any sufficient capacity within the department to fix the leaking pipes especially in the rural municipalities? This is because most of the challenges in this municipalities are leaking pipes which municipalities delay in fixing. Are there any plans that you have to assist to make sure that when the residents report leaking pipes they are fixed on time? Thank you.
Xitsonga:
XANDLA XA HOLOBYE WA MATI NA NKULULO: (Man D P Magadzi):
Inkomu, Muchaviseki Manana Mathevula.
English:
Chairperson, let me indicate that I have already said that we working with the boards and we are working with the water services authority. Therefore, when we know that there are leaking pipes and we know that in a particular municipality like Giyani, there is 40% of water that is lost, the department working with the water boards, will really work very hard to make sure that those leaking pipes once reported, they are being fixed. However, I also need to indicate that there are several municipalities that have projects of making sure that ... because this is nonrevenue water, hon members,
we make sure that municipalities are able to recover the little that is leaking.
There are other municipalities that actually have leaking pipes to the tune of 60% of the water that is not going to the municipality but the municipality is paying for such water.
So, working together with the municipalities we always make sure that we also capacitate them. This is because there has been challenges of lack of capacity particularly in the water services authority municipality. Therefore, when we capacitate the municipality we know that we will not be able to come back again to look at the challenges that have been found in this municipality. Thank you.
Xitsonga:
Muchaviseki, ndza khensa.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, considering that the rural areas have been at a huge disadvantage when it comes to accessing water and worn down water resource infrastructure, what specific measures is the department taking in ensuring that the upgrading of water resource infrastructure in urban areas is not at its expense
and rather also advancing the rural communities to access water? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me indicate to the hon member that in the rural areas we are highly challenged but there is a programme that the department is embarking upon for making sure that where there is no surface water there are boreholes which are being done in the rural areas. There are hon members who make sure that there are reservoirs where we can be able to have this water reserved so that the rural areas can be able to get sufficient water.
However, I need to indicate that for all of us to be able to have water it is a long road. We want to also indicate that the demand throughout the Republic is massive and therefore we will work very closely even including the private sector to work towards our communities as they are yearning for water which is a right enshrined in the Constitution. We are able to work in such a way that little by little our people are able to access water. Nevertheless, the demand is massive I need to indicate, Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Question 174:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Chairperson, let me thank the hon member for having raised this question. Let me also indicate that the process of establishing water service improvement programme by the department has several key elements. One of the elements which comes from the Water Services Act is that the department updates more and more comprehensive national norms and standards. We believe that for the water services authorities drawing on the existing monitoring information including the drop report working with the National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, reports, no new or additional requirements is necessary for us to be able to add on to the municipalities.
The other is that the department will be publishing national dashboard which will be able to extend the norms and standards of water services. I also believe that we will be developing the rolling regional support and intervention plans based on the evidence of the regulatory dashboard by regional office and in consultation with the provinces, regional offices, the provincial government and municipalities in particular we are talking about the district development model where we work with institutions definitely as the department we will be able to go a long way.
The other one is the support and intervention plans as from time to time we draw working with variety of institutions including our water boards and private sector. Some of the things we will be able to put forward to our communities. I also need to indicate that the department is working very hard fulfilling its regulatory function with regard to water and sanitation services. The following are some of the things that we have put in place, namely, the blue drop, the green drop and no drop incentive based on the regulation processes described earlier on as I was talking. These assessment and compliance systems that I have been putting in place and the standard issued by the department will assist in terms of the Water Services Act.
We are also monitoring compliance with water use entitlement thorough audits. This includes issuing directives, criminal enforcement where there is a need and civil action where there is immediate threat of human life and where there is immediate threat to properties and the environment that can be damaged.
I need to indicate that in terms of the Water Services Act, municipalities are required to obtain authorisation for the abstraction of water and the discharge of waste and must comply with the condition of such authorisation. In terms of
the Water Services Act performance is monitored based on the use of resources, effective management of water and waste water networks, financial sustainability and municipal capacity and planning compliance. Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you, hon Jomo for this opportunity. Hon Deputy Minister, good afternoon. Since the National Water Resource Strategy is binding on all authorities and institutions exercising powers or performing duties under this Act, why are some municipalities, industries and mines allowed to decant their toxic effluents into our streams, rivers, lakes and dams threatening the health of our nation and failing to protect water ecosystems? Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, hon member and thanks for the question. Let me indicate that in my response I have indicated to your good self hon member that part of the things that we are doing as the department is to make sure that where the law has been broken we institute including calling the SA Police Service to be able to make interventions. These are the things that we believe we want to live up to the ideals of the Constitution in particular making sure that lives are protected. We make
sure that the environment is also protected and therefore where we find municipalities or mines or any other person having act, we always make sure that we institute as per the Act what is required for us to be able to protect as I have already indicated. I believe that we take this as our responsibility, and we also want to include the community so that they can be able to be part of us to protect everything that is around us because the impact not only affects the health, but it also affects our socioeconomic standing.
Therefore, this is why it is very important that we deal with these challenges as we work with the communities.
The strategic importance, hon member, is that we must call our hands together and have educational campaigns which will be able to assist our communities to know and have knowledge that in the eventuality there is effluences that goes into the river, not only does it impact on the environment or livelihoods, but it also impacts on a number of things. You have seen in KwaZulu-Natal. There is a situation which we are talking about now. The effluences are running into the sea.
That impacts not only the Department of Water and Sanitation. We are talking here about fauna and flora in the sea. We are talking about tourism. that we know that the more tourist come into the country the better we are able to deal with
joblessness, poverty and unemployment. I thank you, Chairperson.
Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your spot on response to this question. I want to check, is there any plan to reconfigure the current financing policy for the municipal water infrastructure supply and maintenance to ensure the assistance to low income municipalities? If not, why not, and if so, what are the relevant details?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, hon Maleka and thank you for this informative question. The department is working with the National Treasury. We are busy updating water services records and framework and we are also working with the water services authority to make sure that water services plans are there. But of strategic importance is that we align the services with the legislations within the framework where we are operating because that is very, very crucial for the interventions that we are making. The department has requested the Treasury to consider including this as one of the requirements. We are requesting the Treasury to say we need at least if they can be able to have 5% of the municipal infrastructure grant, Mig,
grants to be used for the maintenance in the municipalities. The operations in the municipalities will make sure that what we are doing is not about water only, but we make sure that water and sanitation infrastructure get considered. We are dealing with investment and improvement in refurbishing of infrastructure in our municipalities. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, part of the National Water Resource Strategy is improving raw water quality. In the Free State, for example, there is not a single waste water treatment plant facility that is 100% functional. In most cases they are completely dysfunctional and is a major contributor of the pollution of rivers and streams that we are depended on for our fresh water supply. You mentioned in your answer to the previous member that your department assist when municipalities have urged. When will we see tangible interventions from your department in the Free State and the North West provinces since municipalities air and pollute on a continues basis? How would the pollution of fresh water resources from municipalities be addressees as part of the national water resource strategy? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, hon Du Toit. Let me indicate to your good self that there are several interventions in the Free State province, in particular in the Machabeng Municipality and other municipalities where there have been challenges of water and sanitation. We are working very close with those municipalities and those water service authorities. I can indicate that the Office of the Premier in the Free State is working very close with us so that we are be able to deal with the challenges. For sure, hon member, you are aware that my colleague, Deputy Minister Mahlobo, is hard at work in Kopanong Municipality where there was a tragedy of the dam that has polluted the area.
Addressing pollution is part of the work that we are doing with a number of municipalities. Definitely, it is not something that you would say I came in and I addressed it and this is okay. Remember, we are in several provinces. We are in Mpumalanga in Gert Sibande District Municipality where there are challenges of pollutions which pollutes the Vaal River as it goes down stream. In Gauteng we are in Tshwane Municipality. Rooiwal is one of the challenges that we are looking at.
The department is also repairing and dealing with the challenges of vandalism of the assets in many of these municipalities. Therefore, a plea would be to our communities that as we are working let’s preserve what the government has really done in our commutes so that we can be able to work towards bettering the lives of our people. What is also important like I indicated earlier on is that it is not only us having to address pollution. It is to educate our communities to say the most important thing that we should be able to do is to work together.
I need to indicate that in some communities where I went we have our churches that uses our rivers. They were complaining that the rivers are polluted and therefore they cannot be able to finalise or do the church rituals as is expected of them. I can quote things that we come across when we go to the communities. These are that when we work together we can be able to deal with the challenges. In one of the areas as we were dealing with the challenges you get children’s pampers thrown in the river. You get bottles thrown into the river and so many other things. Therefore, it becomes very important that for us as we work we should be able to make sure that it is important to remember that we need to supply our communities with water that is clean. We should be able to
work together with our communities to ensure that there are sustainable resources and to this, our rivers should not be contaminated. I thank you, Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, it has become a norm across all provinces for our people to go for days, weeks, months and years without a single drop of water coming from their taps. Worse Sedibeng, worse Ditsobotla and other municipalities as a perfect example. Sedibeng Water and other service providers are not paying attention to maintenance and efficient water supply. Does your government understand the frustration that our people are faced with without water and the complete collapse of sanitation with drains running through their streets, without even a single drop of water? Have your department been in any oversight on these particular areas where there is no water and sanitation and where drainage systems have completely collapsed? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me indicate that, indeed, the hon member has singled out Sedibeng. Probably, I will also single out Sedibeng and say, Deputy Minister Mahlobo together with MEC Maile have been working very hard with the
district municipality in that particular area to make sure that water and sanitation as you have clearly stipulated are being resuscitated so that people can be able to have proper water.
They are also working together with Rand Water in that particular area to make sure that there is maintenance and refurbishment of the pipes in that area. I am talking only about Sedibeng, I can talk about Meyerton and I can talk about Vereeniging. That particular area of the southern area of Ekurhuleni is where Deputy Minister Mahlobo together with the executive mayor of the district are working very, very hard to make sure that things are dealt with in particular. We are talking about water. They are dealing with water issues, but they are also dealing with about eight and more water treatment works in that particular area to bring that to normality so that people can stop seeing the effluences in their towns and townships. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms O M MOKAUSE: House Chair, I am rising on a point of order. The Deputy Minister has completely deviated from what I asked. Yes, I have mentioned Sedibeng and I have also mentioned the North West province, Ditsobotla Municipality from where this question originated. She is mentioning all these areas without
mentioning the areas that I have mentioned from the North West. Can she respond on that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The unfortunate part is that we allocate minutes for the Deputy Ministers or Ministers to respond. Now, the Deputy Minister has exhausted the minutes in terms of the response. That is why we move to the next question. Even if I sustain your point of order it is going to be difficult to deal with it.
Ms O M MOKAUSE: House Chair, I have put on a stopper. The Deputy Minister has responded three and a half minutes. She still has about a minute and a half to respond to my point of order. Can you allow her an opportunity?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You cannot challenge me.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am not challenging you. As Members of Parliament we put on stoppers as well. It is not only you there.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am saying that I do have time. The Deputy Minister is still going to respond to
questions and if ever there will be time she will deal with your questions. She has said what you have raised was not covered in terms of your entire question. And I agree with you by the way. But your stopper is moving very fast. You cannot challenge the one I am having.
Question 184:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
House Chairperson, let me indicate that as a department we are implementing several measures on most loses that occur in municipalities. One of the measures that we are implementing, as already indicated, is water services improvement programme in terms of the Water Services Act. The department is developing and updating more comprehensive norms and standards for water and sanitation services. The department has also published a national regulatory dashboard showing the extent of compliance ... [Interjections.]
Mr M DANGOR: Can we all please have some order, we are trying to listen to the Deputy Minister?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can we have order in the House, please. You are protected, hon Deputy Minister, can you continue?
Mr J J LONDT: It’s just hon Dangor woke up now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, can you continue?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): No, House Chair, can we call a point of order? That is an insult to hon Dangor and that hon member must apologise. Hon Dangor has been part of the disciplined members of the House. He is calling a point of order to members making noise. Can hon Londt withdraw that, House Chair, I am asking through you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Londt? Hon Londt?
Mr J J LONDT: Yes, House Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You know very well and hon Dangor is even sitting alone there and he was just raising the issue of the noise so that all of you can hear when the hon Deputy Minister is responding to questions. So, kindly withdraw what you have said about him, please.
Mr J J LONDT: House Chairperson, unfortunately you are not in the House but you can check Hansard to see if it is true or not, but I withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you for the withdrawal. Let’s continue, hon Deputy Minister, responding to the question of hon Mthethwa.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, House Chairperson. I was indicating that we have a water services programme within which there are more comprehensive and updated norms and standards for water and sanitation. The department has also published a national regulatory dashboard showing the extent of compliance with the national norms and standards for water services for all water services authorities.
We have also drawn monitoring information, including from the drop reports, Northwest Territories, NWT, and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, reports where we believe that municipalities will be able to report within this framework. The department is also in a process of developing and rolling out regional support and intervention plan. We are also focusing on the worst performing municipalities so that
we can intervene in that regard. These will assist the department and we will have evidence, particularly through the regulatory framework, which is managed at our regional office.
In consultation with provincial government, our municipalities are working together with us. We are also focusing on working with the District Development Model, DDM, so that we have a situation where we believe that we will be able to get very good results.
In the meantime the department is supporting and intervening in municipalities at an unprecedented scale. Currently we can say that the department has 30 municipalities in the country where we are looking at their performance. The department has also escalated the water partnership offices in collaboration with the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, and South African Local Government Association, Salga, to provide support to municipalities by putting in place a public/private partnership and to reduce non-revenue water amongst other programmes that we are looking at.
We also, as a department, have allocated regional bulk infrastructure and water services infrastructure grant to municipalities to assist them in dealing with challenging
infrastructure. The department is also encouraging municipalities to invest in infrastructure that will assist them to reduce non-revenue water such as having bulk meters in their areas. Hon members, our hon Minister is also ready to make sure that as we are dealing with these challenges we also work in investing in and refurbishing the infrastructure so that municipalities can be able to have good investment in what we are doing. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: House Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. Deputy Minister, thank you very much. I hear all the programmes that you have and I also hear that you will be investing in infrastructure but my point is in the bulk water resources. My question is what is the state of readiness within the department and other water services authorities to maintain this bulk water system infrastructure in sustaining your programme that you were talking about, Deputy Minister? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
We are working very hard to make sure that we work with the municipalities as we execute the bulk infrastructure. One of the things that we are doing as a Department of Water and Sanitation is making sure that water users authorities are
knowledgeable on the things that we are doing. It is no longer a situation where we will invest and move out and then when the infrastructure needs maintenance and operation the municipalities are found wanting. We are also working with the irrigation board to make sure that we maintain government water infrastructure and skills which in the main are being used by the irrigation board. This is an agreement that we made and we are working very hard to make sure that we update them and improve all the infrastructure and in particular the water schemes that are there within the irrigation board.
This information is based on the asset register that the department has and we believe that in addition the department has to undertake the assessment of auditing the water infrastructure and making sure that across the country we are knowledgeable of the infrastructure that is there and we are able to audit that infrastructure, we know its condition and where we need to make an intervention particularly in revamping this infrastructure.
I also want to indicate that municipalities which are water services authority do not have sufficient capacity and that is why even earlier on I had indicated that we are working with municipalities to capacitate them. We work with them so that
as we develop the bulk infrastructure we also make sure that we leave capacity in them so that in the end they can be able to remain supporting what we have invested in their area. Our intervention is to make sure that municipalities that are challenged we are able to deal with them and municipalities that have good records we work with them to spread the investment that we are doing in these municipalities. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chair, to the hon Deputy Minister, what new water demand management strategies has the department in ensuring that municipalities are held accountable in decreasing water loses which reduce the amount of water available for consumption? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
House Chairperson, let me indicate that we make sure that we audit most of the municipalities by looking at what has been given as water user, how much are they getting, how much is being lost and indicate that to them and the particular areas where water is being lost. For example, as the water goes to the reservoirs and ultimately the communities, we are able to identify where the municipality is losing water and therefore guide each other.
One of the things that we are seeing is that in many municipalities we have more water demand than the supply that neither of the water services authority can be able to give to that municipality. This is a struggle to many communities in getting water. In essence, the demand is more than what we are able to supply. In some municipalities, like I indicated earlier, they lose even more than 60% of what their request was. These are things that we are dealing with working with the municipalities.
I need to indicate that Minister Mchunu has been hard at work in making sure that there is transformation happening in order to increase water supply, particularly to the rural areas, and also make sure that we manage the resources that we have as over 70% of water is used for irrigation. These are some of the things that the Minister is working around to bring about transformation and that will enable us to increase water supply and supply water to our communities. Another thing that we must always remember, even as we go to our constituencies, is to talk about issues of climate change particularly in South Africa, it is dry in the west and in the east there are floods. These are some of the things that we need to talk about in our communities and educate them about the challenges and issues of climate change. I thank you, House Chairperson.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge wena ohleli esihlalweni, Sekela Ngqongqoshe woMnyango uma ngabe KwaZulu-Natali ushayela ezindaweni ezinjengaseMlazi, Lamontville, nakwaMashu ubona amanzi nje egobhoza emgwaqeni nasemigwaqeni emikhulu lokho okwenza ukuthi amanzi amoseke, ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemalokishini. Yiziphi izinhlelo uMnyango wakho onazo ukuqinisekisa ukuthi lokumoseka nokuvuza amanzi agobhoza emigwaqeni kuyancipha ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemakhaya nasemalokishini? Ngiyabonga.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
House Chairperson, indeed there’s a lot of water wastage in many areas. When one travels within the towns and other areas there is always water flowing. One of the things that we are doing is working with municipalities, traditional leaders and everybody who is a leader in a community to say when they see the water flowing in a particular area it is very important to quickly either inform the municipality or inform the relevant leadership in that particular area so that they can be able to look if a pipe burst or what exactly is happening so that we are able to deal with the challenge as speedily as possible.
Remember, often times this is water that comes from our reservoirs, and it has been in the water treatment works, has
been cleaned and there’s money that is involved on chemicals and people who are paid for this work.
We always engage with the municipalities as soon as there is a burst pipe. I must remind you hon members that most of our towns and municipalities have very old and asbestos pipes that easily burst with water pressure. Not only are we working with municipalities in making sure that there is no water flowing in the streets, but we also make efforts within the department with the grants that we are giving to the municipalities. As I indicated earlier on 5% of those grants must be invested in infrastructure. One of the things that we impress on municipalities is to make sure that infrastructure that is not in a good condition is looked after.
We also work in partnership with the private sector and Salga in dealing with some of these challenges that one has spoken to. I believe that one of the things that we are doing is to increase as much work into the municipality so that we can be able to attend to fixing the broken pipes and also maintaining those that need to be maintained. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Deputy Minister, whatever plans you and the Minister or your predecessors have has failed and we can see that clearly. Every time that a leak is not repaired or commercial loses take place we don’t only lose water but we also lose money. That is money that those people cannot afford. What will the consequences be? That is what we have to ask ourselves. Is it not time, hon Deputy Minister, to place conditions on the water board and on the water services authority licenses to take the current level of water loses and introduce a phase target for reduction of those losses over a period of three years? If they do not do that, risk losing their licenses.
There must be consequence management for them, and if we are not going to implement something like this they will just carry on. Do you agree that this is a good plan? Thank you, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
House Chair, the plan that the hon member is putting forward, if he can be able to give us an idea of what he is thinking going forward in terms of people who causes water losses and money in communities and we will look into that plan and look at its feasibility so that going forward we are able to know what we are talking about. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 176:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, Chair of Chairs. Engagements are going on with respect to Water Services Authority regarding the need to provide alternative energy supply mechanism that can minimise the impact of load shedding to ensure the citizens’ constitutional rights to access to clean drinking water. Some municipalities have been able to exempt some of their water and sanitation facilities from load shedding. However, this is often not possible because it would require exemption of the whole load shedding which in turn would result in Eskom’s load shedding requirements not being met.
Chair of Chairs, let me also indicate that the department supported by the water boards in their roles as water services provider for Water Services Authority have taken different approaches to manage the impact of Eskom load shedding on their ability to produce reliable bulk water supply services to users, including other things such as engaging with the provincial government leadership and Eskom to negotiate and facilitate the exemption of water infrastructure from frequent load shedding. The department together with the water board are filing application to Eskom for exemption for the Eskom regulation NRS048/9. Some applications for exemption have been
successful, while some have not been due to technical reason advanced by Eskom and some are still waiting for the outcomes of the application.
Entities such as Bloom Water, Rand Water, Umgeni Water, Lepelle Northern Water and Magalies Water are operating water infrastructure that is exempted from load shedding and are mostly able to continue with the operation. Therefore, where affordable some of the entities have produced backup generators to continue with the operations even when there is load shedding. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, South Africa has been victim to load shedding since 2007, and government has been aware of this growing number of households since 1994, since you initiated numerous initiatives like Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, housing projects, Township Economic Development, and etcetera. Since 1994, the Inter-Ministerial Indabas took place and numerous election campaigns were championed by the ANC focusing on access to water, a basic rights.
Minister, knowing all this and knowing that water supply in municipal areas is the responsibility of local municipalities,
will you look into the possibility of connecting areas like, for instance, the Groot Marico Water Reticulation Plants and the Zeerust Waste Water Treatment Plant to the renewable energy plant of Mr Patrice Motsepe where electricity is generated from the sun? Is that a possibility? Therefore, that could be please be provided with a detailed list of the municipalities that were successful in being isolated from the grid. Thank you, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, House Chairperson. Let me indicate to the hon that definitely, I will not be able to say here now that we will be able to provide you with the list. However, we’ll go back and be able to look into what is available or the list because I can’t say of the ... [Inaudible.] ... that now I’ll be able to provide you with a list of the municipalities that have been removed off the grid. But, I also need to indicate to yourself, House Chairperson and hon member, that the question as is definitely, it’s long that load shedding has been with us and we are hard at work like I indicated that we are working with Eskom, we are working with the board, and we are working with the Water Services Authority to planning as to how do we now deal with the situation because, indeed, load
shedding impacts negatively onto water supply in many of our communities.
Therefore, I will combine this together with the first response that I have indicated that we definitely will be able to supply you with the list. However, let us not forget that as the load shedding was happening, and as Eskom was having precarious situation, the population in the Republic of South Africa was not stagnant. Therefore, the demand, whether it’s water and whether it’s electricity, has been growing by day.
These are some of the challenges that we are working on because take it that all these things need planning and all these things as we implement population growth, water supply is a moving target that as the department we need to deal with.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you. One of the biggest risk facing South Africa is when we do not have the different levels of load shedding, but a total blackout where we are without power for several days, there will be no pumps working to ensure that there’s clean running water reaching the homes. The sewage system will also come to a complete standstill which the resulting consequence will put every single resource from health care to security under tremendous pressure.
Now, if you’re planning to fail, hon Deputy Minister, then you plan to fail. I am aware of one province that has a disaster plan in place for such a scenario sketched above. As the Deputy Minister for this department I am sure that you are well-aware of how many of the nine provinces actually have a disaster plan in place for a scenario sketched above. Can you indicate to this House and to South Africans, how many of the provinces do have up-to-date plans and can you commit to providing those plans to the Security committee by the end of the month?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Wow, thank you very much, hon House Chair. Let me indicate to the hon member that, indeed, the plan for the provinces that have got a disaster plan will be provided as soon as it’s available. However, like he has indicated and given us timeframes we, definitely, will be able to supply hon member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, you muted yourself towards your conclusion.
Mr J J LONDT: She muted because she doesn’t know the answer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, you were saying that you will provide it within the timeframe as raised by hon Londt.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Definitely, Chair of Chairs, I was indicating that the hon member has given us an indication as to when we should be able to supply him with the response. Therefore, indeed, that response will come to the hon member as indicated. I thank you, Chair of Chairs.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, Deputy Minister. You were muted towards the end and now we got it very clear.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chair of Chairs. Deputy Minister, it is our view that adequate water supply should be treated as an emergency in South Africa. Therefore, as such all water plants should be spared from blackout and backup power is often not enough to keep ... [Inaudible.] ... the reasoning that you are giving to the National Council of Provinces today that some are exempted from power blackout it is not true.
Deputy Minister, you must go and do a research and come and give us proper answers in the NCOP. Which timeframes have the
Deputy Minister put in place to ensure that all water plants in South Africa are spared from these blackouts? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, Mme Mokause. Definitely, what I indicated earlier on is that all the water boards that actually have been exempted by Eskom for them to can be able to continue supplying water when there is load shedding. However, remember that we’ve got Water Services Authority that the board supply water to the Water Services Authority. Therefore, when there are challenges with the Water Services Authority it becomes very difficult for the municipalities to can be able to receive water during power outages as we are indicating.
Sometimes it becomes even difficult for the municipalities when there are power outages for water to can be able to reach expected water users.
Therefore, I think one of the things that for sure Eskom should be able to do and as we are working together with Eskom we should be able to say yes, water boards have got this kind of initiative that we have done with Eskom, now let’s go to the municipalities so that it can be able to provide services to the water users which are our communities. I think that if we can be able to succeed in doing, hon member, definitely,
will be able to deal with the challenges of water outages as and when there is power outages in our communities, because when there are power outages it means obviously, the water will not be able to reach our communities. These are the things that as hon member has raised the question. I need to thank you for that. These are the ideas that we should be able to start working with the boards and working with the Water Services Authority. However, engaging Eskom also at the same time to say that there is a precarious situation down the line, and, therefore, let’s work together so that our communities can be able to get the water. I thank you, hon member and I thank you, Chair of Chairs.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, in the light of escalating crisis, theft and vandalism of the public infrastructure, is there any integrated security plan to protect the backup generators and other related infrastructure? I thank you, hon House Chairperson and thank you, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, hon Bartlett. Let me indicate that there are several plans that have been put forward by the Minister and several other municipalities where theft and vandalism are
being dealt with. However, we are working, hon member, with the municipalities. We are also working with the boards and most of the boards have got securities in place which can be able to assist in dealing with the infrastructure. But, that is just only for the board. We also now are starting to work with the municipalities to say that let’s have security systems in your water treatment plants, and in your waste water treatment plants also so that it doesn’t affect you because when there’s vandalism it impacts negatively.
On the waste water treatment plants, it impacts negatively on the water treatment plants. Therefore, that is why we are always making sure that all the implementing agents must assist the municipalities in the main with the plans so that our communities don’t find themselves in a situation where every now and then the municipalities repair and invest and then other people will come and take what has been invested in, there’s vandalism in particular. I would say that part of the phase that we have seen is that there are some people who actually are making sure that they make it their duty to can be able to harvest, to steal and to vandalise what the municipalities have invested in or what the boards have invested in. We are working very, very, very close with the law enforcement agencies so that we can be able to protect.
However, part of the things that we are encouraging the municipalities to do is to look at security systems that can be able to protect the investments that we are making. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 175:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me indicate that the wastewater treatment plants, the department issued water use authorization to regulate the discharge of the effluent from the plants in terms of the National Water Act. Some of these plants might be operating as a continuation of the existing lawful use or may be authorized in terms of the general authorization, brought through water use license.
The department also regulates use of water by ensuring that rectification measures are taken against unlawful users of water, including the municipalities, the department has from April 2021 to date issued 120 notices and also 58 directives against the municipalities that were found to have used water without authorization. In addition, Chair of Chairs, two criminal cases were also registered with the South African Police Service for use of water in different manners. That what is permitted under the National Water Act. These are some
of the things that the department has done to make sure that the right things are done by all of us. And if you don’t do the right things, the law will follow you. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you, hon Chair. Minister, hon Deputy Minister, I did not hear you nicely. So I might want to have a clear answer in terms of my follow up question into what you have been saying. And my question will be what is your short to long term plans as a department to improve the quality of effluent of every wastewater treatment plant to be to the legislated sense, general legal limit within South Africa to a level that will not harm the environment and natural resources. Secondly, what will be the consequences to those municipalities not complying with regulations, as it’s currently happening in the country? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon member, I need to indicate that one of the things that the department is doing is to look into a how do we deal with the grey water? How do we make sure that we deal with the effluents? There are several municipalities that are now starting to look into the utilization of the effluent by
making sure that they work with the grey water so that there can be the reuse of the grey water.
In this instance, hon member, I will indicate that at the beginning of the year, the Minister signed an agreement with the mines in the area of Mokopane together with the Mogalakwena Local Municipality so that they can be a utilization of grey water in the mines.
These are some of the things that we are looking into to make sure that we deal with the challenges of underutilization of the grey water. And I would say that in the long term, we believe that the infill will be a utilization of the grey water reuse of the effluents in such a way that we are able to contribute towards the economy of the republic.
Hon member, I have already indicated that there are several noncompliant municipalities and noncompliant institutions. I have already indicated that those that do not comply ... We are working with the law enforcement agencies so that there can be compliance. I’ve already indicated that there are two which actually we have already reported to the police so that they can be able to do the right thing. If you don’t comply
... The other thing that we are doing is that we are using the
No Drop, Blue Drop and Green Drop, so that we can be able to check our municipalities and institution that really comply with what is expected in terms of the law. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair of Chairs, hon Deputy Minister, the reality is that South Africa wastewater management currently stands in a dismal state posing significant risk to the environment, the ecosystem and our people who rely on these services. Which urgent measures of intervention have been put in place to ensure compliance and which timeframe has been put in place in this regard? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon member, indeed, as you have put it forward, the situation in particular of our wastewater treatment is in a dire strait. Let me indicate hon member that we are trying to enforce compliance. We are also making sure that we work with the Department of Environment, forestry and fishery in making sure that we protect our ecosystem and in making sure that there is compliance particularly on issues that affect the environment and the ecosystem, so that we are not found wanting.
Hon member, you would recall and remember that part of the work that we are doing, we are working with the municipalities and a variety of institutions. We are working together with different with different institutions and different departments. Because if we don’t do that, we will find ourselves administering water services that impacts negatively on to the lives of the people. And we are being assisted by a number of companies. I have already indicated earlier on that working with the South African Local Government Association, SALGA, in particular is one of the things that we are doing so that as we deal with the challenges in particular in the municipalities, we are ensuring that where there are shortcomings SALGA comes in. Where there are problems of pollution we work with all the municipalities, we work with the Department of Environment, to ensure that we are able to deal with some of these things.
Hon House Chair, I have already indicated that part of the things that we are doing in essence is to make sure that there is reuse of the water that we are having. But we are also making sure that our purification plants can be able to, as they dispose the water into our natural resources. This is the water that actually has been dealt with properly so. Because I always believe that if we don’t have water that has been
properly dealt with downstream is going to affect a number of people.
We are also making sure that this is not only being done by the department and water boards we are all collectively involved in making sure that the effluents and when they get discharged, they get discharged in a proper way. They get discharged, having been cleaned properly so. Because remember, it doesn’t affect the ecosystem and air only, it will also affect the health of the people in this regard. And also taking into cognizance, the fact that when we discharge, the not so good effluent, it definitely also+5- impacts on the climate and the condition that we find ourselves. I thank you, Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chair, I rise on a point of order. In the Deputy Minister’s response, she is trying to point out all the role players, but she doesn’t come to a point where she is answering which timeframes has been put in place in this regard and which urgent measures of intervention are in place. She is just mentioning a lot of things here and she is not answering the question itself. This is extremely out of order and you are allowing all these Deputy Ministers who have been
speaking here today to do that. It is unfair for us Chair of Chairs. You are not doing justice to this sitting.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokause, I am presiding and I am not answering questions. The Deputy Minister has however responded to your question. We will now move to the third follow up question asked by hon Hadebe.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chair of Chairs. Hon Deputy Minister, you have partly covered what I was going to say in that you working with other parties like SALGA to implement and to improve the enforcement in so far as compliance is concerned. My question is what consequence management measures will be taken to oversight entities as well as the municipalities who have been found to be at fault in so far as operating wastewater treatment plants without licenses?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, hon Hadebe. Let me indicate that there are several consequence management issues that we are taking. Earlier on I spoke to the fact that as the department we look at No Drop, Blue Drop and Green Drop, which we are able to look at the municipalities and say, you are found one wanting with respect to this regulation that we are putting forward. Therefore, put
systems in place so that they can be able to follow norms and standards of what is expected of them. And when there is no compliance we then institute ... [Inaudible.] ... on that, there are several that have been put forward that they don’t comply with the regulations and these are some of the things that we do. In the end, when you do not comply we will eventually make sure that we take you through the law enforcement agencies until where we bring in the South African Police Service to be able to deal with the situation. If you as the municipality or whoever is not following what we are anticipating of them ... That is why we are saying the municipalities or the institution that are at fault. Every time you always make sure that we follow the regulations until such a time that they can be defaulted, one way or the other. So, these are the things that as a department we are doing.
But there is always consequences management in everything that we are doing. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Chair, I will ask the question on behalf of hon Dodovu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You can take it, hon Mthethwa (Nyambose.)
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you very much. Deputy Minister, the Constitution enjoins the three spheres of government to co- operate with one another in good faith in pursuance of the common national development agenda. In this regard, Deputy Minister, what is the plan of the Ministry to pursue and where possible assisting the municipalities to comply with these relevant waste water treatment issues. I thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Thank you, Chair of Chairs. The department is implementing Water Supply and Sanitation Improvement Project. In terms of the water services. The Department of Water and Sanitation is developing updated and more comprehensive and updated norms and standards for water and sanitation services. The department has also published the national regulation dashboard showing the extent of compliance with the national norms and standards for water services for all ... [Inaudible.] ... on this existing monitoring information including from the Drops report, the National Treasury and Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, reports.
The department is in the process of developing and rolling out regional support and intervention plans based on the evidence in the regulator dashboard managed by our regional offices in consultation with the provincial government, municipalities and the district development model structure that we are working very close with. In the meantime, let me indicate Chair of Chairs, in supporting the intervention in the municipalities at an unprecedented scale the department is currently having thirty municipalities in the water services. Thank you, Chair of Chairs.
Question 185:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon Chair of Chairs, let me thank hon Dangor for the question that he put forward to the Minister. Let me indicate to the House, at large, that the project is being reorganised to be gently implemented with the commercial sector. We are here and we are talking about the mining sector in that particular area and it is anticipated that it will be completed by 2030.
The project will be implemented with 50% from government and 50% from the commercial sector funding, to the benefit of the communities in and around Sekhukhune and Mogale City Municipalities, together with Polokwane Municipality.
Let me also ... [Inaudible.] ... project, we have omitted them and we actually also believe that the design phase has definitely been completed and we believe that we shall be going out on tender. In the Western Cape, let me indicate that the augmentation of the Berg River Voëlvlei is expected to start in 2024 and we believe that this will assist the City of Cape Town.
In KwaZulu-Natal, we have a project of Umkhomazi, where construction will also start in 2025 and we believe that this will assist, in particular, the rural districts.
The Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, TCTA, is, in this instance, involved in working with the board in that particular area, so that we can work towards the infrastructure development. I also need to hasten to indicate that we are awaiting the National Treasury for a decision, so that we can assist with the physical infrastructure contribution.
The Mokolo and Crocodile River Water Augmentation programme, which is in Phase 2 is also one of the projects that we are looking at and we believe that the project will be commissioned in 2028. We are looking forward that it will deal
with the challenges, particularly in Lephalale and those areas in the west of Limpopo.
With regard to the Mzimvubu Water Project in the Eastern Cape, a complete date has not yet been determined, as the implementation model is still being considered. Initially, the lack of potential commercial takers prevented this to be classified as an off-budget project.
On recommendation of the National Treasury, the department issued a request for information to explore alternative funding and an implementation model. A proposal was recently submitted to the National Treasury to consider the Mzimvubu Water Project.
The Vaal Gamagara Phase 1 was completed in July and Phase 2 will commence in the 2023-24 financial year. Regarding the rehabilitation of Vaalharts-Taung irrigation scheme, the masterplan has been finalised to provide insight into the rehabilitation and the upgrade requirements. An anticipated project target date will be determined once the feasibility study has been completed.
Rustfontein, which is one of the other water treatment works in the Free State, is not being pursued at this stage.
Alternatives are being explored to enhance water security in Mangaung, together with the metro. The scope of the Orange Reed is still to be determined. While Rustfontein is a project listed in the Bloem Water, the Mangaung metro is to be engaged on alternatives to enhance water security.
Let me say that these are some of the projects that we singled out for the information of members, but there are other projects that, as and when the members require, we will provide information around that. Thank you.
Mr M DANGOR: Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, based upon the ongoing project and monitoring and evaluation, has the department identified any critical factors that may create delays for the completion of these projects? If so, what are the plans to mitigate such delays? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Ambassador Dangor, let me indicate that there are critical factors that have caused delays in some of the projects and the completion dates had to be postponed. Amongst others, we
have weak infrastructure procurement and contract management in the department. This needs to be addressed.
The accounting officer has put in place a new infrastructure supply chain management policy and infrastructure procurement strategy. This will make the department’s infrastructure procurement efficient and effective. The department is also putting in place revised contract management standard operation procedures and we believe that we will be able to train several people in project management, on how to apply this, so that we can deal with critical factors that delay the projects. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, after load shedding, water scarcity is a major challenge facing the everyday life of the people of South Africa. As the condition of water and sanitation infrastructure in this country continues to deteriorate, bulk water resource infrastructure is clearly not coping with the increased demand and it is only poorly maintained. Which measures has the Minister put in place to ensure that the projects put in place are well maintained and will not need to be revisited in a short space of time? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon member, we are working very hard with the municipalities, so that we can assist them by capacitating people who are working on the operation and maintenance of the investment that the municipalities, together with the Water Services Authority have put in place.
I also need to indicate that, when we do this with the municipalities, part of the what we put in place, besides capacity building is to make sure that the municipalities put measures in place to have money, whether from MIG, from Water Services Infrastructure Grant, WSIG, from the Regional Bulk. Infrastructure Grant, RBIG, so that they can deal with the challenges of infrastructure that deteriorate.
Let us not forget that most of the municipalities are hard at work in making sure that they supply services to their communities and in many instances, this impacts negatively on their budget, because they want to expand the services to some of the communities that do not necessarily have the services.
So, maintaining the projects is one of the things that we are encouraging is to have some money to maintain the investment that they have made. And at the same time, we are also
encouraging them is to work together, so that we can assist them with the infrastructure that is not in a good condition.
Indeed, you are very right that it is important that, as we invest in infrastructure, it must be well maintained. In many instances, as I have indicated earlier, we have made sure that we work with most of the municipalities to ensure that there are contractors that are appointed, to assist in maintenance. We work with many municipalities with capacitating the municipal workers so that, when we leave, we don’t leave a vacuum, but we leave a municipality that has workers that can deal with the investment that has been made by the municipality. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, the Minister duly responded to a written question posed earlier this year by hon De Bruyn regarding the maintenance and shut down of the Lesotho Highlands Tunnel that is planned for 2024, stating that, if all goes well and targets are met in time, the maintenance should take about six to eight months. That is appreciated. Seeing that every bulk water project is currently behind schedule, how is your department planning to ensure that bulk water supply to the areas that are going to be affected are being maintained or are finished on time?
I appreciate the fact that you answered just now that you are in direct communication with municipalities and assisting them. I want to make use of your offer or proposal for everyone to work together to get infrastructure in a good condition and I want to know, Deputy Minister, will you agree to visit both the Makwasi Hills and Ditsobotla municipal areas in the North West as soon as possible, to see for yourself in what dire state the water infrastructure in these municipal areas are and intervene as a matter of urgency? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon Du Toit, thank you for the invitation, we will definitely look into the invitation to Makwasi Hills, and engage you as and when we go that part of the country in the North West. We traverse the whole country and in February, we had a summit wherein we collated all the information from every province to decide what we would like to see happening. And at the end, we see our annual performance plan as an indication of how we would like to see some of the things happening.
That is why, part of the things that I have indicated to you has been that, what we found, as we were engaging with the community, is that we are challenged with respect to procurement issues. We are challenged on a number of issues
that relate to infrastructure and that is why we are a little behind. We need to indicate that there is some intervention that the Minister has been able to make in some areas. We believe that some of the projects are now on track. We can say to our communities that these are the things we have been able to do.
We want to ensure you, hon member, that some of the interventions have been sustained and we are still working on some of the interventions. We definitely will be able to say that some challenges are a thing of the past.
Regarding the Lesotho Highlands Tunnel, which the Minister spoke about, there is enough evidence indicating that the Sterkfontein Dam is on track to supply sufficient water that is available, while we are dealing with some of the issues on the other side of South Africa. However, it is work that, I would say, we are on track with and definitely, like I indicated earlier, Phase 1 has been dealt with and we are now at Phase 2. We believe that, as we are working, we definitely will be able to update on some of the issues. I thank you.
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, as you correctly pointed out at the beginning in the first part of your answer,
there are several massive capital projects that are planned to ensure that water securities are looked after, because that is going to be the next big thing facing the country, in addition to the electricity crisis we are facing already.
You have also now indicated what plans you have put in place, to ensure that we do not have massive backlogs in the rollout and the implementation of these projects. In the Western Cape, we have the Clanwilliam Dam that was planned in 2014, at a cost of R2 billion. Unfortunately, that is now already R676 million over budget and the completion date, believe it or not, would have been this year, but that has now been delayed by a further six years. So, can you commit and can you put yourself on the line to say that these projects with all the measures that you have already put in place will not be dealt with further delays, and that you will stake your reputation or what is left of that after this question session today, on the completion of that project?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Ms D P Magadzi):
Hon member, let me indicate that this is one of the projects that the Minister, together with the Premier of the Western Cape have been working hard on, to make sure that the years that we put forward to the community of the Republic ... It
cannot be, as you have indicated that it has been many years and delays.
I need to indicate that I don’t necessarily have the real figures by nation or the real numbers with respect to the years, because the Minister and the Premier of the Western Cape have been working on it. It cannot be that, to date, we are still working backwards in this regard.
However, but let me indicate that, going back to the drawing board, I will be able to give you the outcomes of what Minister Mchunu and the premier have been able to work on, so that you can have information on what is happening in Clanwilliam.
I was trying to look at my notes and unfortunately, I cannot quickly have sight. I need to indicate that this project is one of those projects that the Minister has been able to work with the premier. There are several commitments, but I cannot, off the cuff, say what has been happening and that is why I plead with you to allow me to go to the backroom, so that I can give you proper information. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon colleagues, Deputy Minister of Water and Sanitation, hon Magadzi, let me take this opportunity to thank you for availing yourself to answer questions in the NCOP. We also thank representatives and special delegates from different provinces and the representatives of Salga.
The Council adjourned at 19:01.
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