Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 18 Oct 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 18 OCTOBER 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch: Plenary
The Council met at 14:00.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The Chairperson announced that the hybrid sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS CLUSTER 2A - SOCIAL SERVICES
Question 116:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces. Greetings to members and greetings to everyone in this meeting. Question
116 from hon Ndongeni asked the Minister of Basic Education on Adult Basic Education and Training whether:
With reference to survey report by Statistics SA and other nongovernmental details furnished, there are any programmes with community-based organisations and or nongovernmental organisations, NGOs that are in partnership with her department, in the rollout of Adult Basic Education and Training. What programmes and,
what is the funding policy in the department in her department for the community-based organisations and NGOs?
Chairperson, if we can all recall since 2009, the Department of Education was split into two, into the Department of Higher Education and the Department of Basic Education. Then the Department of Basic Education remained with the basic education, I will say now from zero to plus 17-18, to matric or Grade 12.
So, the higher education part of Adult Basic Education and Training, Abet moved to the Department of Higher Education. I believe that - yes when it was still with the Department of Education, we did have NGOs and funding model but now, there is no funding model, no funding whatsoever. It would constitute an unfunded mandate to continue with this task,
because now it belongs to Department of Higher Education. Thank you, Chair.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you Chair, good afternoon. Hon Minister, based on the monitoring and evaluation by the department, what are the general challenges faced by the provinces in terms of the management of the transition of the early childhood development, ECD, from Department of Social Development to the Department of Basic Education? The second question is: How has the national department assisted the provinces in this regard? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the original question was about Adult Basic Education and Training. Now, the follow up is on early childhood development. But, I would respond by saying, we are working as a sector. The sector constitutes even the provinces. So, the migration of ... [Inaudible.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Minister, we are back to adult education. Minister, 10,7% of females and 9,3% of males in this country cannot read with understanding, and this makes it very difficult for our people to access jobs, government services and etc. Reading and writing is a basic requirement for most
jobs and so the failure by your department is harming people’s chances of creating a better life for themselves and their families.
Minister, you have clearly failed to make an enabling environment to address the imbalances of the past. Will you step aside and make place for the DA to do a better job on this one?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chair and thank you for the follow-up question. Reading and writing is a basic skill. You cannot distinguish or separate education from reading and writing. That is the basic, basic, basic. When we speak education, we speak reading and writing. Whether you go to university wherever you go, you must be able to read and write. So, that’s our core business. Whether it’s the DA that comes in or any other political party that comes in, that will remain the core business of reading and writing.
We have programmes that talks to reading and writing as a department and as a sector in general. That’s why we even allocate times in all the schools in the morning, after the research results indicated that some of the learners at the
age of 10 are unable to read with meaning. They read but they don’t read with meaning.
That is what now we are focusing on. We are not working alone while working with NGOs and community-based organisations, CBOs and all including the Presidency when he encourages the people of South Africa to be a reading nation. So indeed, we are prioritising reading and writing as the department. Thank you Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair, the Minister has in the past, viewed criticism made by community-based organisations, nongovernmental organisations operating in South Africa and specialists in education, as anti-South African government. In that dismissive approach by the South African government, the Minister missed out on progressive guidance and collaborative efforts on many issues pertaining to Adult Basic Education and Training.
Have relations between these important bodies and your Ministry been mended by Minister? If so, has the Minister also collaborated with those organisations, which are deemed critics of the ruling party? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, as the
Department of Basic Education, we are open for criticisms, whether negative or positive. Even if the criticisms are negative, we turn them to be positive because you can’t just criticise without a basis. So, we believe in the notion that, there is no smoke without fire. We search around as to what are the basis for these criticisms.
As the Department of Basic Education like I indicated earlier on that, Adult Basic Education and Training lies with the Department of Higher Education and Training since 2009, it is more than 22 years now that Adult Basic Education and Training was moved from the Department of Education.
On the basic education itself, we work with all stakeholders we work with civil society. We hold quarterly meetings with all civil society, we are using the National Education Development Trust to bring all of them together under one umbrella. We consult them, we listen to them, and they guide us also, like we take guidance even from the select committee and the National Council of Provinces. Thank you Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces. Hon Deputy Minister, considering the
varying inconsistent commitment in terms of funding sources for the ... [Inaudible] ... programmes, by the external funders which has affected the effectiveness of the programme, what has the department done to ensure that the programme has its own sufficient funding to ensure that the rollout of the programme is as effective as it should be? Thank you Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I will go back to the initial response that, Adult Basic Education and Training is with the Department of Higher Education. So, we would not have any funding model as things stand because whatever we do on adult basic education, it would be an unfunded mandate. So, we are not working. We don’t have stakeholders that are working with the Department of Basic Education on any provision of Adult Basic Education and Training. Thank you, Chair.
Question 119:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (Dr M R Mhaule): Thank
you so much, hon Chairperson of the NCOP. You will recall that the programme of Asidi started a bit longer, but in 2018, we were given resources to implement sanitation appropriate for Education, which we termed, Safe program. At that time, we
identified more than 3 000 schools that were using pit latrine toilets, and then we had 3 000 projects.
However, when we started to implement the project, we were not implementing alone, there were others, like a private sector that would donate and they were working together. So, the one that is implemented by Department of Public Works and Infrastructure in the Department of Basic Education. We implemented 3 000 ... [Inaudible.] Two thousand three hundred and forty-nine schools have been provided with sanitation through the Safe program.
So, 310 new schools have been built, 1 249 schools were provided with water facility and 46 schools were provided with sanitation facilities. Three hundred and seventy-three schools were provided with electricity through Asidi programme. So, the R13,2 billion has been spent on infrastructure backlog at school since 2011 to date.
That is why when I answered this question, I started with the Asidi programme, because the question is focusing on Safe. So, it will be not correct to say the R17 billion were spent on Safe. The entire total was spent on both Asidi and Safe
programmes. The total spent now is R13,2 billion, on both Safe and Asidi programmes. Thank you chair.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister. it has recently been reported that deadlines to resolve school infrastructure backlog have been removed from the latest Gazette. Deputy Minister, please just give us a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer: Have pit latrine toilets been eradicated in schools; and if not, how serious is your department about doing so?
Thank you
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (Dr M R Mhaule): It is
very difficult to answer this question, because I have been given a choice to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’. So, whether I say ‘yes’ or I say ‘no’, I don't find myself having reply to this question. However, Chairperson the deadline ... Yes, we say it has been resolved because we can't lie to the nation, saying on this date we shall have eradicated all pit latrines. This is a moving target! Just like when we visit areas, you find mushrooming communities where we sometimes offer to establish schools using mobile classrooms.
So, those things will be there, but in the case of the 3 000 schools that I mentioned when we started with Safe, that one -
come end of March 2023 - we shall have eradicated in all those schools that were brought to our attention at that time.
However, there are some schools that will be coming. Especially, you will find that a school has been given waterborne toilets and the community does not have water. When we try to drill boreholes, there is no water on the water table.
So, it becomes so difficult. The school sometimes will provide itself with pit latrines to address those toilets that are not user friendly, because they are waterborne toilets of the school. Thank you very much.
Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks, Chairperson. With the utmost respect, I would like to ask you not to switch my video on due to network problems.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed!
Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you very much. Hon Deputy Minister, what are the specific challenges faced by rural provinces in relation to the rollout of water, sanitation and infrastructure to schools; and, how is the national department assisting such provinces?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (Dr M R Mhaule): Chair,
when we speak about the Safe projects the provinces that are benefitting... [Inaudible.] ... and Limpopo. To us, as a sector, we see these three provinces as the most rural provinces; not to say that we are not working with other provinces. On smaller pockets, we do work with Northwest, Mpumalanga, Free State and other provinces. So, we are more of the rural provinces than the urban provinces. That is how we assist in the sanitation appropriate for Basic Education.
Thank you.
Mr M A P De BRUYN: Hon Chair and Deputy Minister, in September this year, or rather last month, a seven-years old child in the Free State had died at school. [Inaudible.] in the window of the bottom of the toilet, in which... [Inaudible.] ... inside. Deputy Minister, I would like to know: How many cases of injury or death were reported over the last three years or similar cases at school throughout the country as a result of the lack or the substandard infrastructure; and who is being accountable to these injuries and losses of life?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (Dr M R Mhaule):
Chairperson, issues of learners who are getting injured on pit latrines or whatever or in the premises of schools are issues
that will call upon the media into that space. So, it attracts everybody: That it cannot happen that a child may get into a pit latrine without anyone - all of us in the country - having noticed.
So, we remember we had the Komapi story and we all know about that Komapi story - same as the issue in the Free State. In the Free State, yes, I remember, when it came to surface. We were told that a child fell into a pit latrine toilet, but when we went to the province to check exactly what happened, we found out that the children were playing on those mobile sanitation facilities. Then as they were playing, then one child got injured. Like in any event, children will get injured if not monitored. So, in this case, it has nothing to do with the situation of the facility. The facility is intact and it is good. It is just that learners got injured - one learner - got injured when they were playing with friends.
Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson of the Council, it is hon Mokause. Minister, under normal circumstance - whether is a temporary facility or whichever facility is erected at the school - safety must be a priority! For you to come and answer here that the children were playing is completely out of line,
because your department should have made sure that safety is at the centre of every facility.
Now, the issue of lack of infrastructure in schools remains unaddressed in many parts of the country. Which precautionary measures have been put in place to ensure that the budgeted R17,5 billion is not looted or squandered by the ruling party at the expense of the children in the North West province, Mpumalanga, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape province, who are subjected to indignity by the ruling party at the premises of government schools? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (Dr M R Mhaule): Chair,
the safety of the learners and safety of our educators or our teachers is a priority. That is why, even as the SGBs, there is a subcommittee that is called, Safety Committee, a committee of a school that looks at the safety of learners and teachers on a day-to-day basis.
I am not saying that learners, when they play, they should just get injured. If that was the case, we would be receiving reports that learners are injured on a daily basis in our schools. The fact is that one report that we got from the Free State tells that it does not happen to all provinces and all
schools that every day there is a child that is getting injured.
So, on lack of infrastructure throughout the country, Chair, I may not agree 100% with that statement because we do have school infrastructure... [Inaudible.] ... operationalised by structures that were built or communities structures that were put by mobile classrooms. In our budget, we do have a plan to address those facilities in every province, to describe what we are going to build each year.
The R7,5 billion is a combination of Asidi and Safe programmes. On Asidi programme, there are so many schools that have been handed over to communities, base being built by that Asidi programme. So, yes, it is not enough, but we are addressing these challenges on a daily basis. Thank you chair.
Question 117:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chairperson of the Council. Yes, there are a lot of schools that owe municipalities and the reason is that we have been in constant engagements with Salga, the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs as well as NER to check as to how schools are billed. Schools are billed like businesses
that make profit yet schools are not generating any profit, they are just community centres that provide education to learners.
This is an ongoing matter, we are engaging, we consulted provinces to check exactly how much they owe municipalities and Eskom. Chair, only three provinces have given us numbers, the Eastern Cape gave us a number of 403 schools that owe an amount of R29,6 million, Gauteng with 210 schools amounting to R49,1 million and Western Cape owes about R53,7 million.
We have spoken to provinces to request them to assist their schools. The Gauteng province told us that they have already paid R20,1 million on behalf of all the section 21 schools that were unable to meet their debt obligation. So, partial section 21 schools are paid for by the Gauteng Department of Education and all the Gauteng section 21 accounts are now up to date. The remainder of the debt especially those that do not fall under the section 21 category, the department says they are engaging the schools to ensure that they pay.
The Western Cape Department of Education said that debt balance older than 60 days currently amounting to R16,9 million is closely monitored. They say they are
monitoring their schools because they say their schools are able to pay. So, we will be going back to them to get a report.
The schools in other provinces buy directly from Eskom so they may not owe municipalities especially those in rural areas.
Thank you Chair.
Ms M N GILLION: Thank you Chairperson and thank you Deputy Minister for the response on the question. I think it is still a worrying factor hence my follow-up question is as follows.
Is there a policy or regulation that ensures that schools pay their municipal accounts and if not why not and if so what are the relevant details? Thank you Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chairperson. It should not be a matter of a policy necessarily but a matter of people paying for services. When we give the section 21 schools a budget, there is an inclusion of government services, water and electricity. So what we need to do is appreciate what hon Gillion talking about the policy that we check if provinces have such policies that will enforce schools to pay because they get a budget from the provincial
government and like I indicated, that budget has a tag for paying government services so they must pay.
Schools in rural areas are able to buy electricity from Eskom because most of them use prepaid electricity so they do pay. So, there is no school where you can pass by and find that that school is dark whilst there is electricity.
We will find a way of ensuring that all our schools do pay but notwithstanding the fact that I indicated that the billing is too high. They bill schools just like your Pick ‘n Pay or whatever business. We are engaging with the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Salga in this regard. Thank you Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Minister, considering that quality education is one of the country’s most vital tools in eradicating inequality and potential economic growth, what is the department doing to ensure that the debt of this provincial department to municipalities does not continue to compromise the already declining quality of education capacity and more so the budget allocated to schools in these municipalities? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chairperson. We are encouraging schools to pay. Municipalities at times towards writing the final examinations threatens to switch off electricity at our schools. That is why the provinces are paying on behalf of the schools. When I was still in the province myself, I remember very well that we paid for all the schools so that there can be no school whose electricity gets cut because of non-payment.
Municipalities should also not suffer because they buy this electricity from Eskom and sell to its users which part of them are schools and schools must also pay their dues to municipalities.
I said schools that are on prepaid do not owe Eskom and there are no power cuts or no disturbance of quality education at those schools and it does not affect the economic growth of our country because Eskom or the municipalities will get what is due to them and our children will get quality education because we need electricity for our children to get quality education. Thank you Chair.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you Chairperson. With regard to the implementation of harsh measure by the municipalities of
disconnecting water at schools to recover outstanding debt, Deputy Minister, why should school children suffer due to departments not paying for services?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, thank you for the follow-up question by hon Arnolds. Chair, it will be one school out of a 100 or 1000 schools that will get cut but it has never happened that electricity or water will be cut at a school for a period exceeding a week. It has never happened. We are always alert on such matters and we always work with provinces to ensure that in the event a school is owing we are informed before the municipality cuts electricity. So, before they could cut, we have already intervened.
Unless members have instances where they know that this particular school has been going without water because the municipality has cut, municipalities do not just cut, they inform us prior and we intervene and deal with our own in- house issues after we have intervened with the municipality. Thank you Chair.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you Chairperson. Deputy Minister, there have been reports of water and electricity cuts at
schools owing municipalities millions of rands due to amongst others dwindling school fees payments.
This situation is aggravated by schools currently being ranked quintile 5 meaning that they receive drastically reduced funding from the Department of Education despite the school population profile showing that learners come from severely disadvantaged economic backgrounds.
Minister there has been repeated calls for the Department of Education to review the quintile system in order to assist impoverished and indebted schools, what is the date of finalisation on reviewing the quintile system at schools and when will the select committee receive the finalised report on the review of the quintile system? Thank you Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chair. I do
not think I should provide an answer to this question. I want to promise the member that we will submit a written response to it.
What I know about the quintiling of schools, especially quintile 4 and 5 when we were still quintiling the schools operating within an area that more of the school population is
under privileged, the SGB, school governing body refuses saying that they want parents to pay school fees and would say they have agreed with parents that they do not want to go down.
In the event parents are paying, the amount that government is paying to those schools will never be equal to those classified as no fees schools because most of the parents living there are unemployed and if they are employed, they get something below the minimum wage.
Our communities in South Africa are not the same and yes our budget is pro-poor but at the same time we do subsidise those schools and if there are learners whose parents are not working and they report the matter, they get exempted and we pay.
Chairperson, the challenge which those parents, especially the school governing body would not us to bring them to section 21 because they want fees to be paid on a monthly basis.
So, with the department, we give them trenches per quarter which is four times a year and not on a monthly basis. Thank you Chairperson.
Question 111:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the Department of Basic Education is implementing the Integrated National Reading Sector Plan across the nine provincial education departments. The provincial departments report to the department twice in a financial year on the progress made in implementing activities in the school that supports reading. So the provinces have already submitted the ... [Inaudible.] ... reports on the implantation of activities to improve literacy and numeracy. So the provincial department have also developed reading strategies which outlines how literacy levels will be addressed in improving the early grades of the foundation phase.
The improvement in reading with meaning is part of the Department of Basic Education’s Annual Performance Plan. It is in the APP now as we speak, and it is monitored by the departmental officials on a regular basis and we account even to the select committee, as well as the portfolio committee in the National Assembly. So the department, in collaboration with languages curriculum officials in provinces and districts, finalised the guidelines for teachers on reading methodologies.
On the recovery of annual teaching plans for language to provide guidance on the teaching and assessment of reading, the department is working with the NECT, National Education Collaboration Trust, to prepare for the implementation of home language structured learning programmes in the foundation phase in quintiles one to three schools. These School Nutritional Programmes, SNPs consists of a variety of resources such as readers, big books, phonics programmes, which will help improve literacy.
With the loss of teaching time during COVID-19 pandemic, the curriculum was trimmed to focus on core content areas. These however, did not entail trimming any of the reading and writing like I indicated earlier on that reading and writing is the core of education. So the department is addressing the overcrowding in classrooms by building additional classrooms and appointing more teachers. Yes, sometimes building a classroom takes longer, then we get mobile classrooms which we are no longer promoting. Now we are promoting the construction of classrooms to add to the schools. Thank you, Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Minister for the answer, although the answer speaks to what will and might happen in future with regards to engagements that are currently taking
place for something that might happen. Deputy Minister, according to an article by IOL that was published on the
8 September 2022, it indicated that:
Eight out of 10 Grade 4 learners in South Africa can’t read or write for meaning.
It is a recent article. According to the Southern and Eastern Africa Consortium for Monitoring Educational Quality, the teacher-learner ratio as well as the classroom size, has a definite impact on learning standards of learners. Deputy Minister, when and how will this issue be addressed to ensure that learners receive decent education instead of only access to education to ensure that illiteracy is eradicated and children are given the opportunity to read and write for meaning? We want action Deputy Minister, not only plans on a yearly basis. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, my answer
started by saying that the Department of Basic Education is implementing. I never said the department will implement. I said the department is implementing the Integrated Reading Sector Plan across the nine provinces. That is what I said. It is not futuristic; it is what is currently happening. Even two
weeks ago I was in the Eastern Cape to launch the region programme because that study, the ... [Inaudible.] ... study that was done is not September this year, it is a result of previous years, and we chose to participate in the study. It told us then that eight out of 10 of the Grade 4 learners or age 10 are able to read but not reading with understanding. You can recall that even in the state of the nation address, the President indicated this matter. He got it from the Department of Basic Education and that is why the President himself came up with the reading strategy and now it is what we are implementing – reading – reading - reading for meaning. Now because we are still participating, we will the results are much better that they were in the previous years. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M R BARA: Chair, let me take hon Du Toit’s question a bit backwards so that we understand that this has been a long sitting problem that is not been resolved. Long before COVID- 19, illiteracy amongst learners was a crisis as reported in 2016 that South Africa was placed last out of 50 countries in terms of reading comprehension and literacy. The truth is that the current educational system is failing our children. Has the department determined why this continues to remain a crisis 26 years after democracy? Does the department have any
evidence of data that provides the indicators or reasons literacy amongst learners remains in crisis? And if not, shouldn’t it be a priority for the department to determine those indicators? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, with honour and respect, I didn’t hear the first part of the question because there was a technical glitch. I just saw everything frozen, not on my side. I don’t know what happened because my network is constant and consistent. Can the hon member, with due respect Chair, come again?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will ask the hon Bara to repeat the question.
Mr M R BARA: Yes, that’s round two. Deputy Minister, long before COVID-19, illiteracy amongst learners was a crisis as reported in 2016 that South Africa was placed last out of 50 countries in terms of reading comprehension and literacy. The truth is that the current educational system is failing our children. Has the department determined why this continues to remain a crisis 26 years after democracy? Does the department have any evidence of data that provides the indicators or reasons literacy amongst learners remains in crisis? And if
not, shouldn’t it be a priority for the department to determine those indicators? I hope I am clear now.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, let’s hope so.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: It’s very clear.
Chair, I don’t know where does the 26 years of democracy comes from because most of the people that are sitting there, those that are in the NCOP and National Assembly, are a product of the education system of South Africa if we can just go back to statistics. We don’t want to go back there to say how many learners reached matric before democracy. If we don’t really appreciate that the system is growing, I don’t know what we will ever appreciate as South Africans. And these studies are indicators that there is no law that pushes the department to go and benchmark ... [Interjections.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yah, what is the point of order?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, can I ask the Deputy Minister a question please? Will she take a question?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you just repeat the question please.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Can the Deputy Minister just answer the question and say she doesn’t know what she is talking about and answer, except making a political speech and telling us what we should ask and not ask.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, you know that is not a point order. Deputy Minister, please proceed.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I proceed Chair
because I am in this department and I was there even before democracy. I was a teacher since 1980. I know what was happening before democracy and I know what is happening now in democracy. So, if we want to argue political statements; education and politics are two different things. We are speaking about education of the children of South Africa, and we are making sure as the system that the children of South Africa get the best education in the whole world.
That is why our children are competent everywhere they are taken in the whole world. There is nowhere we have seen children from South Africa having been returned because they
cannot comprehend. The issue of reading and learning is the programme of the Department of Basic Education and its provinces, and we are prioritising that as hon Bara asked. Hon Bara, we are prioritising reading and learning. Reading for meaning. Reading with understanding. Reading with comprehension. That is what we are prioritising. Thank you.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy Minister, which intervention has the Minister put in place to ensure that those learners who drop out of school, as a result of literacy challenges faced, are reintegrated back into the system as many of them do not return back to school? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the dropout is not only as a result of reading or writing. There are so many contributing factors to learner dropout, but we have programmes. In the past we used to have a programme called ... [Inaudible.] ... and now we have a second chance for those learners who would still want to obtain Grade 12 to be given an opportunity and we have institutions where they are taught and assisted by teachers. So, we are helping them.
We don’t want ... every child in South Africa is an asset. So all children, regardless of status, are an asset in South
Africa and we have a responsibility to mould them to reach their responsible adulthood. So the two programmes I have mentioned is what we are doing and we are also working with higher education that those who have passed grade 9, we channel them to Tvet colleges. That is what we are doing and other higher education institutions for skills development. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for always being there when we need her. I just want to check if there is any policy to redirect and integrate some learners who fails matric without any hope of future success to the other basic education or technical vocational education and training streams to enhance their future prospects of employment. If there is such a policy, will you give us the details of what that policy says, hon Deputy Minister? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The learners who cannot make it to Grade 12, they are automatically redirected to higher education institutions that are developing skills and also the Tvet colleges. There is a tendency now that with Tvet colleges learners will think, and some of us of course, will think that Tvet colleges are for those that have matric only. Tvet colleges are meant for those that have passed Grade
9 so that when they do level one, two and three, that’s when they acquire their matric and other institutions of higher learning which are under the Department of Higher Education.
In the Department of Basic Education, we have established the three stream model that we should not ... [Inaudible.] ... our children to go to academic route to matric even if their skills are not directing them there. That’s what we have now and what we are doing. In all the nine provinces that programme is running. Yes, it is not yet where it’s supposed to be but we are working on it to guide them. That’s why we spoke of general education certificates that when our learners pass Grade 9 they must get a general education certificate which will direct them to their individual careers of interest. That is what is being done. Thank you, Chair.
Question 120:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you,
Chairperson, the Question is: Why schools are finding difficult to implement legislation policies and programmes that are aimed at eradication and education of drug use? Drugs and substance abuse among youth is a nationwide problem affecting a number of schools and communities. Schools are required to implement the National School Safety Framework,
which is a guiding framework that empowers schools, to identify security issues and threats such as drug abuse, establish mechanisms such as school safety committees and reporting channels which include the province and police where necessary. In this way, schools are capacitated to respond promptly and proactively to any threats or security issues. In addition, schools are also required to implement the National Strategy for the prevention and management of alcohol and drug use amongst learners in schools which empowers them to establish school-based support teams, establish referral systems for leaners addicted to drugs and implement drug testing. Moreover, schools are also required to implement the protocol between the Department of Basic Education and the South African Police Service, which allows all schools to be linked to their local police stations and the police station will delegate the police officers to form part of the school safety committee. School based searches and seizures of illegal drugs and weapons can be undertaken by the police regularly, and these are the frameworks that we have, which we expect School Governing Bodies to adhere to this, so that we curb the rate of the drug and alcohol abuse by the young ones because we are looking at them to be responsible citizens in the near future. Thank you, Chair.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, House Chairperson and Deputy Minister, the truth is that all those strategies that the department has in place is not being implemented effectively at schools. So, reports are rife that children are becoming drug dealers at schools. It is evident that crime is on the increase in schools with physical attacks and assaults as well as regular reports of the rapes by the learners under the influence of substances. With these added threats of young children becoming drug dealers and the knock-on effect of an increase in crime at school. What is the department doing, seeing that these strategies that the Deputy Minister has mentioned is not working effectively and additionally the security, especially, how is this managed in schools? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: House Chair, the
programmes that I mentioned earlier on are informed by the legislation, the South African Schools Act of 1996, the Regulations for Safety Measures at Public Schools of 2001 and the Policy Framework for the Management of Drug Abuse by learners in the public and further training institutions 2002 to address drugs and substance abuse. The Department of Basic Education is not an expert to deal with drugs. That’s why I say we work with the SAPS. So, it’s a choice of other schools
who will not want to work with the SAPS. But the schools that I always visit there is a police officer attached to that school, to deal with issues of drugs and any substance abuse. On the issues of safety and security of the school, school safety committees are also working with the police stations, the community policing forums. Most of the schools in townships and villages, the entire village under the leadership of the school governing body take it upon themselves. Yes, there are pockets of learners who may continue to do these things. Remember, we have 13 million learners and it can only be done by five learners. Then, it becomes a big thing. If we are able to protect 12 999995 learners, it means something is being done and we need to commend the SGB’s. We need to commend the Department of Social Development because they work together with the Department of Basic Education. We need to commend the school governing bodies for the good work they are doing for protecting our children in schools. Thank you, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, how effective has the Department’s National Strategy for the prevention and management of alcohol and drug use amongst learners in schools has been, when it comes to tackling substance abuse in schools? Were all the schools
introduced to the strategy, if so, what were the integration action plans and the outcome thereof? If not, why not? How consistent was the funding to this strategy nationwide to ensure an enabling environment for learners who have become addicted to alcohol and drugs to access treatment, care and support services? Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, Chair. As I
indicated, this is a collaborative work, it cannot be done by the Department of Basic Education alone. We do it with the Department of Social Development, Department of Justice and Correctional Services, the Department of Police and even Cogta. So, we are working with provinces, there’s a central drug authority. The department strengthened the provisional substance abuse forums which enable the province to work with the local stakeholders, to address the scourge of drugs and substance abuse in communities and be aware of reliable referrals systems for leaners addicted to drugs, for example working with the Department of Social Development we refer them to rehabilitation centres but the department through the inter-provincial meetings encourages the provinces to seek funding to address the second part funding. Funding from other stakeholders such as multilateral institutions to assist with the procurement of drug testing devices other province like
North West, Mpumalanga province have procured these drug testing devices, but they are working together with the SAPS. Remember, issues of drugs and all these social ills are emanating from the communities. They don’t just start from schools. We always say and now it has become a song that a school is a cosmopolitan of the community. It replicates what our communities are doing. Our children emulate what they see happening in communities. So, we work together with community leaders. It’s not a matter of including members of the National Council of Provinces, we need to work together because we cannot put politics in these matters. These are the matters of the future of this country where we need to lead our children to be responsible adults. Thank you, Chair.
Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, in the light of the increase of substance abuse by the learners as the broader community societal problem. Are there any plans by the department together with other sector departments and communities to increase community awareness about the destructive effects of substance abuse? If no, why not? If yes, what are the relevant details? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, Chair, I
indicated issues of partnerships. The department works with the Department of Social Development, Department of Justice and Correctional Services, Department of Health, Department of Communication and Digital Technologies because there are issues of cyber bullying. We cannot deal with that outside the Department of Digital Technologies and the South African Police Service on rolling out the interdepartmental campaign on the prevention of violence, bullying, corporal punishment, gender-based violence and femicide, teenage pregnancy and drug and substance abuse in schools. What I am talking about is not something that is going to be done, is something that we are doing. We have been to many provinces and we request, even MEC’s in the provinces to take the processes down to districts. I was in the Free State with the Free State MEC for education who has covered all the five districts of Free State rolling out these awareness campaigns. It doesn’t end there, as a campaign. It is taken by the districts and the circuits and we are working with all stakeholders, religious-based organisations, councillors and community leaders. We are working with everybody. When we come into that space and we leave them and say continue with this good work. We are working with our Quality Leaning and Teaching Structure, QLTS, that is based in the Department of Basic Education and it has
replicated in provinces, districts and circuits. This structure is able to bring all community-based organisations to come and work with the Department of Education. We believe that working together we will be able to fight this scourge. Thank you, Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, MaNgwenya, its Mokause. Deputy Minister, we have seen a lot of killings at the level of the school due to drugs and alcohol abuse. Bullying being at the centre of all these actions due to drugs and alcohol. What other ways do you have as a department to assist learners who get involved in all these actions except expelling them from schools? Deputy Minister, are you in talks with the business like the alcohol outlets which are trading extremely closer to the school community? Do you have police working with the school community or do they just respond when there are incidents at the schools? Thank you
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, hon Chair and thank you, hon Mokause. As I was responding to this question, I have touched on all the issues hon Mokause indicated. When we say there’s a cop, we know that we have more schools than police stations. We have more schools than police officers. So, in a policing area, we get one police
officer. We find that that one police officer is managing about five schools in the area and they are very effective because they work with their own community policing forum. If that police officer is not there to respond immediately, then the community policing member is there in the school. When we visit these schools, we always find these people there. They are working with the school community and as a department, we also support the izimbizo spearheaded by the SAPS that when they go there, we encourage even parents to go and learn how to address all the social ills. Chair, I don’t want to speak about statistics here because we are winning. On teenage pregnancy, we are winning. On drug abuse, we are winning. We don’t expel learners from school. We work with Social Development, we refer them to rehabilitation then they come back and we include them in the system. We also work with Correctional Services where we get inmates to come and address our learners to tell them not to repeat what they did. There’s one incident in the North West, where it was really touching where a good maths learner had to drop out and be arrested and he has got two life sentences. But now he is a teacher of mathematics. He qualified at the prison, now he is a teacher of mathematics, teaching all other inmates and they pass with 100%. Then, it tells that if we can work together as a
community and society, we will win this battle. Thank you, Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Can we take over and chair this session now because it looks like the ANC has gone to bed. Can we take over, Chairperson?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, no, it’s the
Chairperson not the ANC. The Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, Chair.
IsiZulu:
Ugesi uhambile ngapha manje kuphazamise i-network yami. Ngizocela uhlale ungigadile ke.
English:
Deputy Minister, sorry for that.
IsiZulu:
Akuyona intando yami, yintando kagesi. Sinesifo sikagesi eNingizimu Afrika.
Nk M O MOKAUSE: Ugesi we-ANC. Ugesi we-ANC
Question 118:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: House Chair, the main aim of the Second Chance Matric Programme is to offer young people, who had failed to meet the requirements of the National Senior Certificate, NSC, and/or Senior Certificate examinations as well as those who wish to upgrade or improve the NSC or the Senior Certificate examination results, a second chance to obtain a qualification. Thereby improving their quality of life and their life chances.
The programme offers face-to-face support, online support and wide range of learning support material. The programme facilitates the development of Learner and Teaching Support Material, LTSM, that is based on diagnostic reports in order to ensure that the support material focus on common areas of poor performance emanating from previous examinations. The LTSM are governed or own-printed and government-own printed and distributed to learners at no cost whatsoever.
Since the inception, the programme has supported more than
400 000 learners to pass the outstanding subjects or subjects towards achieving a National Senior Certificate or just a Senior Certificate.
The programme has facilitated the development of the Mind the Gap study guides for home language, high enrolled Further Education and Training, FET subjects, SA Sign Language, 14 vocational subjects, low enrolment subjects and vocationally oriented subjects.
The programme, Chairperson, plays and important role in retaining learners beyond the formal schooling programme. Learners who are disappointed by their failure or poor performance at the end of their schooling career are able to continue with their studies at their own pace. They are able to register for one or two or more subjects and write the examination in May-June or October-November.
The face-to-face centres keep learners motivated as they prepare for their examinations. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, I feel that the Minister in her elaborate answers has actually answered the two questions I was going to ask. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, hon Nchabeleng.
The next follow up question is going to be asked by Ms B Mathevula.
Hon Mathevula!
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Deputy Minister, which measures have you put in place to alert students who did not meet the requirement of National Senior Certificate? And what is the success rate of this programme, especially in rural areas? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: House Chair, we are doing this, not at a national level, is done at a provincial, district, circuit and school.
The school does where these learners belong, that’s where these learners could not succeed in their Grade 12. So, the schools have contacts of those learners. So, we are working directly with principals of schools and other teachers at a school level; they are the ones.
We could have not reached the number, 400 000, if this programme is not driven on a right direction. Thank you, Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Minister, would you agree that if all South African schools had sufficient qualified education at schools the dropout rate would be less and less individuals would be taking part in the Second Chance initiative?
And also, Deputy Minister, would you agree that if the progression policy that is currently implemented in schools would be altered, rather holding a child back to enable him or her to achieve and to proceed to the next level when they’ve acquired sufficient qualification for that it would be better and we wouldn’t have so many individuals taking part in the Second Chance Matric Programme? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: House Chair, all
teachers in the system are qualified. It doesn’t matter whether the teacher teaches at a rural area or urban areas, we have one ... [Inaudible.] ... that prepares our teachers. They all come from the 20 universities of the Republic of South Africa. There’s no university that is training rural teachers and a university that is training urban teachers; all these teachers come from the same ... [Inaudible.]
But the level of comprehension, even ourselves in the NCOP, we are not like horns of a goat or ears of a donkey that we can
just be the same, people are not the same. That’s why we use differentiated approach in dealing with the learners because some comprehend fast, some get it slower, and we are able to accommodate all of them.
The progression policy is meant to help the learners because if you keep the learner for a long time in a particular phase, that learner becomes disgruntled and will not even catch what the teachers are ... [Inaudible.]
Chair, that is proven that when we give these children a second chance by progressing them to the next grade they do very well. We have distinctions coming from learners that are progressed, we have Bachelor’s.
So, every year when we announce results, really, these issues are outlined that learners who were progressed passed, and they pass very well. Thank you, Chair.
Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Minister, this will be the last question that you have to answer today. You may be relieved to hear that, the rest of us ... [Inaudible.]
Deputy Minister, it’s been reported that in a portfolio committee meeting in August of 2021 by the Department of Education that learners with special needs are not accommodated in the Second Chance Matric Programme due to the lack of resources.
Deputy Minister, do you agree that learners with special needs should be accommodated in the Second Chance Matric Programme? Will they be accommodated in 2023? And has the issue with resources being resolved? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, ja [yes] ...
err ... that it was reported in August 2021 that learners with special needs are not accommodated on this programme.
All learners in South Africa are learners. And learners with special needs differ, so, we don’t put them in one basket to say they are learners with ... there are those who won’t even go to matric but we channel them to skills in our private schools. Then there are those that will opt for matric and those ones will be given that opportunity.
Remember when we were speaking about the ICT devices, then our partners would just choose any school. But now we said to
them, please come to us, let’s work together because we want these tailor-made devices for our learners to go to special schools so that they are not disadvantaged because they are children like all South African children, they deserve all what the children of South Africa have, and they must have equal opportunities as all South African children that are having.
So, I don’t agree and I don’t disagree with this statement, I will further check as to what led to that statement being made because where I’m sitting, Chair, the children of South Africa, we give them equal opportunities. Thank you.
It could not be the last question because this was a follow up question number three, we still have number four.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, hon Minister, for reminding me, I have jumped hon Radebe. The follow up question is going to be asked by hon Radebe.
Hon Radebe! Hon Radebe!
You’ll find that imkhiphile naye [it has kicked him out also].
Deputy Minister, it was hon Ryder. Deputy Minister, your first question was asked by hon Nchabeleng, and the second one was hon Mathevula, the third one was hon du Toit and the fourth one was hon Ryder. That’s the end of your question, hon Minister.
Question 113:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, I want to indicate that National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas has implemented the following internal controls and risk management strategies to avoid the provision of bursaries to non-deserving students by implementing a variety of steps to prevent what we call DDP. The steps include the following:
Determining the financial and eligibility of the Nsfas beneficiary by using the combination of the parent, spouse, legal guardian formation as confirmed against data received from the Department of Home Affairs and data received from the SA Revenue Service, Sars. Financial eligibilities determine automatically when Nsfas processes a new application whereas the financial eligibility of continuing students is determined on an ad hoc basis.
The academic eligibility of Nsfas beneficiaries is determined as follows: For continuing students, compliance in regard to eligibility criteria is determined using academic results received from the Department of Higher Education and Training, for Tvet College students and two, the institution at which the student studies for university students. For all new applicants and continuing students, compliance regarding the N plus rule is determined using the Education Management Information System, Emis data for the university N plus rule and Nsfas funding data for the Tvet College M plus rule.
A review of the financial eligibility of the 2022 continuing students was conducted and Nsfas found that more than 35 000 students were not financially eligible. The results of this review were presented to the Nsfas board for a decision regarding further steps that needs to be undertaken. A review of the academic eligibility of 2022 provisionally funded students was conducted after the receipt of the updated Emis data for the 2021 academic year.
To date, Nsfas has found that more than 25 000 students have been found to be funding eligible based on the latest Emis data and 80% of the students have achieved their undergraduate qualifications as per heads. However, I wish to say, hon House
Chair, academic results that Nsfas received from some institutions do not indicate that these students have achieved their undergraduate qualifications. Therefore, the funding of these students has been put on hold and the results of the review presented to the Nsfas board for a decision regarding further steps that need to be taken.
Mr I NTSUBE: Hon House Chairperson, Minister, in terms of the internal audit by Nsfas, are there any of the students benefiting unduly only on the basis of material misrepresentation in the applications or are these the cases of material breach of policy by Nsfas officials processing the application? What steps have been taken of officials who might have been found guilty of the breach of this policy? Thank you very much hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Ntsube, through you, hon Chair, I wish to say that in terms of the forensic work that has been conducted over the last financial year, we can confirm that evidence of students benefiting unduly only on the basis of material misrepresentation do exist when they apply for Nsfas funding. We mainly receive these reports by our hotline where
individuals with knowledge of these cases report directly to Nsfas, via the Vuvuzela Fraud and Ethics Hotline.
The 35 000 continuing students that have been identified as financially ineligible were initially found to be financially eligible by declaring that they are self-sufficient. Now that we have found that these students are not eligible, they are no longer being funded. I wish to say, in addition, I have asked Nsfas that, in instances where they find students or parents guilty of being funded by not telling the truth, they must actually be reported to law enforcement agencies so that action gets taken.
From now on wards, we are not only just to discontinue funding but we are going to hand them over to law enforcement agencies. The internal audits and forensic units have not now identified instances where Nsfas officials intentionally breached any funding policy to provide funding to qualifying students in the last financial year. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr M R BARA: Hon Chair, my follow up question to the Minister is that a Special Investigating Unit, SIU to investigate maladministration and fraud at Nsfas has recently been
announced by the President to recover any financial losses suffered by the state through corruption and negligence at Nsfas. The unit will also investigate related unauthorised irregular or fruitless and wasteful expenditure incurred by the Nsfas or the state including the causes of maladministration as well as improper conduct of the employees of the Nsfas. Minister, Nsfas in its current form is failing dismally. Is it not time to admit that the scheme has failed administratively and that a new model for student fund disbursement needs to be explored? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, first of all, I would like to say, Nsfas has not failed and it is the success story of the ANC-led government since it was established. We are actually will be celebrating
30 years of Nsfas this year and it is functioning optimally.
It has got challenges, of course of needing to update its own systems so that it can be able to quickly catch students who are actually cheating. But already by virtue of having picked up 35 000 students who were cheating, it means that Nsfas is indeed functional.
Already Nsfas has had discussions with the SIU. We welcome this investigation by the SIU and we hope that this
investigation will also help us to prioritise to find and expose those who are actually defrauding Nsfas. The fact that there are these challenges does not deserve that Nsfas should then be regarded as a failure. National Student Financial Aid Scheme is supporting the children of the working class and the poor in this country and hundreds of thousands of whom are playing a very important role in South African society today. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon House Chair, Minister, since the statistics are available, of the students who benefited unduly, then surely you know how much money has been spent on them. Minister, what is the total amount of the money paid to the students who benefited unduly? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, clearly this is a new question which was not implied in the question that was asked. I do not have those figures but I am happy to provide an estimate of how much money as it cost us in terms of students who are actually defrauding Nsfas. I did not bring that information because it was not in the original question. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, in addition to the numbers that have been benefitting from Nsfas, it was reported in 2019-20 financial year that there is a total of
440 000 irregular students reports of ghost students. Have any criminal cases been laid against the persons who benefited from those ghost student grants? How many irregular student reports of ghost students have been identified in the last financial year and what is your department doing to address this better? Thanks, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, if I understand hon De Bruyn’s question, the
440 000 ghost students that he may be referring to may be the fact that 440 000 students were funded legitimately by Nsfas but what was not done which was the matter that was supposed to have been done by our former director-general was to actually to write and to arrange that I do a gazette authorising such expenditure. That did not happen and I dealt with that matter. That money did not go to ghost students but its money that actually went to legitimate students except that we did not do the gazette which was the problem. That is why the Auditor-General flagged this as a wasteful expenditure or unauthorised expenditure which is something that we
subsequently engaged with the Auditor-General to explain exactly what we are saying.
We have heard about the students who do not deserve to be funded, as I have said, we have discovered 30 to 35 000 earlier this year but these are not 440 000 ghost students. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Question 121:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
House Chair, we are sharing with the Deputy Minister. Can I hand over this one to be answered by the Deputy Minister, Manamela?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No problem. Hon Manamela.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Yes, yes, I’m here. Thank you, House Chair. Let me try this, okay. The Higher Health is the implementing arm of the Higher Education and Training that is meant to address gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, in Post-School Education and Training, PSET, institutions, which includes
universities, Technical Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges, and community colleges.
It has put a range of interventions in place to deal with gender-based violence, which includes, capacity and skills development and training in topics such as gender-based violence and femicide sensitisation, and procedural guidelines on how to handle sexual and gender related misconduct on campuses. Since last year, over 7 706 hotline and support staff were trained to support students. The department in collaboration with Higher Health has further launched several protocols, minimum standards, checklists and guide lines to assist these institutions to put mechanisms in place for reporting and providing support to survivors.
Higher Health has also established a range of services for victims, survivors and perpetrators across campuses, and these includes, prevention mechanisms through the GBVF self- screening risk assessment, toolkit for students to identify any risks detection and vulnerability to take measures to further assess their needs and provide assistance, a 24 hour piece set crisis hotline, Future Bids, which is a radio programme, clinical care for physical injury and prevention of pregnancy, HIV and other sexually transmitted infections,
professional psychosocial care of advice counsellors and psychologists, and also peer support through gender-based violence and femicide support of groups.
Higher Health has also launched a call for extra mural curriculum on civic education with a full model on gender- based violence and femicide, gender equality and gender diversity, and it is also building a student champions across all campuses through their peer to peer educator network to reach out to communities, to community members and support them in understanding gender-based violence and breaking the stigma. Secondly, to say that we are successful is not easy, we can still do much more. However, our success is reflected in the following numbers afforded in 2021.
First, 124 964 students were enrolled and capacitated via the Higher Health Gender-Based Violence and Femicide. Secondly, on curriculum, over 80 500 students and staff have been assessed, using the Higher Health Gender-Based Violence and Femicide risk assessment, audit and toolkit. The stigma has been broken, as we have for the first time in 2021 seen over 8 600 students reporting gender-based violence and femicide to be assisted by Higher Health Gender-Based Violence and Femicide
support services in the form of clinical psychologists and registered counsellors and other support structures.
The rate of cases still remain a product of mainly, intimate partner violence, domestic violence and circumstances outside of communities. A no tolerance on gender-based violence and femicide on campuses remain imperative as much as support to all survivors of gender-based violence and femicide. It also remains a pertinent part of all our interventions. Thank you, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Ngwenya and thank you, Deputy Minister, Manamela. The first follow-up question will be asked by hon Christian.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your answer, and thank you very much for your detailed answer on all the policies and processes that have been rolled up. I am concerned about the implementation of those policies and processes. Now, to get to my question, Deputy Minister, there have been reports of underreporting on gender-based violence, and I particularly want to go to the Tvet colleges. The problem stems from unsafe and institution housing, as well as
the young adults moving away from home, and not have been properly equipped for the life at university.
Deputy Minister, no new accommodation facilities have been built for the past 30 years at Tvets, a huge portion of National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, bursaries, go to student accommodation, yet, students are left vulnerable, year after year, and higher education continues to fail in securing safe and stable accommodation for students. What are the budget plans in place for both safe accommodation at Tvet colleges, which Tvet have been earmarked, and what are the timelines in order to keep our students safe from gender-based violence? Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, House Chair and to hon Christian, I think the first point is that, the question of gender-based violence and femicide is not necessarily only the result of students staying off campus. There has been incidents wherein students who stay on the campus, have been affected by gender- based violence and femicide. The second point is that, it also remains the choice of student as to where in some of the instances, they want to reside.
Some students prefer to stay off campus and to use the accommodation allowance that has been allocated to them for a whole range of other reasons, obviously, because of the challenges that we face with in terms of student accommodation. The third point is that, there is no system in the world that provides 100% student accommodation to all the students who needed it. I think, the case applies and circulates to us, given the challenge in terms of resources and all of that.
Lastly, or maybe not lastly, there has been a huge investment that has been poured into student accommodation, particularly at the Tvet college levels, and those, based on the need that has been identified at specific colleges and all of that.
I think that our major priority in terms of Tvet college infrastructure, has the expansion of the Tvet college sector. In the overall, our intension is to ensure that students, wherever they stay, remain safe, be it in communities or on campuses, because the reality is that, in whatever happens, campuses are the product of society, and generally, there has been a challenge of gender-based violence in our society in general. Also, I think that, it is where we really have to nip the problem on the bud.
Finally is the fact that, which I think we have to acknowledge, the policies and protocols that have been introduced have been rolled out and implemented in all of our Tvet colleges and all of our universities. Most of these institutions have ensured that these policies are complied with, or are in line with their already existing internal policies intended to strengthen security, intended to build consciousness, intended to also assist the students to unlearn some of the practices that they come into the campus with, which have assimilated generally from their communities, so that, we ultimately achieve our objective of zero tolerance towards gender-based violence and femicide, I mean zero, in all respect. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, in terms of the reported cases, how much is the substance abuse contributing to the gender-based violence, and what is the plan of the department in addressing this challenge? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Look, I think as I’ve said, firstly, we’re faced with the situation wherein students, and generally, in our society, we have built the confidence in which, those who are
victims of gender-based violence and femicide are now able to speak out. So, we are able to such an extent understand the gravity of the problem. Like I said in the initial response that, more than 8 000 cases have been reported in the year 2021, which may project this as a new and huge crisis.
But in reality, we have ... [Inaudible.] ... we referred training to the peer to peer in engagement. We have somewhat built a momentum where institutions have to confirm them inside. Secondly, we have a whole range of ... [Inaudible.]
... and also partnership with government to help us ensure that our campuses are secure. We are quite confident that, the policies that we’ve put in place are beginning to yield the necessary ... [Inaudible.] ... in terms of ensuring that students graduate alive and also students graduate safe and sound. Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. You have to make sure that your network is proper all the times. The third follow-up question is from hon Hadebe. Hon Bungane, on the virtual platform.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chair, hon Minister and the Deputy Minister. It was reportedly found that the
Ministerial Task Team on GBVF in universities established that, not only in universities, have sufficient means to deal with GBVF. What steps are being taken to capacitate the universities with resources to adequately deal with the GBVF by the department? Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: This is exactly the one and the important resource that we are providing to the universities, Tvet colleges and community colleges, which is the establishment of Higher Health as an agency that has now extended its scope to include the issues of gender-based violence. We provide all institutions with psychosocial support in instances where these cases exist, we also support them with whatever material that they need to help build consciousness.
The reality is that, at the end of the day, institutions with resources allocated from the national fiscus will have to ensure that, in complying with protocols and policies that were put in place, had they put in resources to ensure that we are able to deal with gender-based violence, so that they build internal capacity in that regard for them to be able to do so. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, gender-based violence is a long standing issue in institutions of higher learning. Which interventions has the Minister undertaken, if any, against the challenges of underreporting of gender-based violence incidents, which often makes it difficult to determine the true prevalence of gender-based violence in institutions?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: as I have said that, we have put in place policies and protocols, and as a result of that, we have imposed an obligation on all institutions to set up structures that will be friendly for anyone on campus who believes that there are victims of gender-based violence. I think that, that is why we are beginning to see the rise in terms of the reporting of a number of cases on our campuses.
With this, we are not suggesting that, because of the number of cases that have been reported, they necessarily may not be underreporting. But we think that, the rising in terms of numbers, signifies the kind of impact that the kind of interventions and protocols that the Minister through Higher Health has imposed on these institutions. So, we are really beginning to see the results.
Question 114:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair. The next two questions will be answered by myself, starting with this one. The department started undertaking national cohorts studies including a specific study on the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS- funded students in the 2016-17 financial year. Cohort studies are the study of first-time interim undergraduate students who are trapped over a 10-year period to determine the percentage of students that have dropped out form their studies or who have completed their studies. The national cohort studies consider any student who receives NSFAS funding at any point in time during their studies. The report published in February 2022 covered the year 2000 to 2019 national undergraduate cohort for public higher education institutions. The results were as follows, there was ... [Inaudible.] ... of the national generally cohort grades, the dropout rate was 32,4% and the throughput was 61,2%.
I am very pleased to say that NSFAS students in terms of this cohort rates, the dropout rate is at 28,8%, much less than the general cohort studies and the throughput was 71,3%. What this shows is that NSFAS on average, because of the bursary support, are performing better than non-NSFAS-funded students,
which is very important in further underlining this government’s achievements on this.
It should be noted that at least four years of data will be required for three-year qualifications and five years of data for four-year qualifications. The current study underway will be published in March 2023 and will include students on the new bursary scheme and provide information on three-year qualifications as four years of data will be available for the new bursary students from 2018. It should be noted that NSFAS has not conducted any research to date regarding the dropout rate of NSFAS beneficiaries. This has nothing to do with aspects of NSFAS policy ... Excuse me hon Chair and hon members ... with continued funding for all academic years prior to 2022.
The artificial dropout as a result of this policies make it extremely difficult to determine whether the students in fact dropped out of their studies or whether the students has continued with their studies as self-funded students. NSFAS beneficiaries who studied at university as of the academic year will also be covered as I say, when we then the new cohort studies results. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. The first follow-up question is from the hon Nkosi.
Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, has the survey been conducted to determine the causes of the dropouts, if not, why not and if yes, what are the relevant details? Secondly, what are the steps taken by the department to mitigate against the drop out of students who are the beneficiaries of bursaries? Thank you, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Nkosi. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, I am not sure of my connectivity, that is why for this I have just decided to switch off my video. As indicated, the department tracks the national data through the Higher Education and Training Management Information System, which allows for high level cohort development to be identified.
There is a significant field of research that focuses on student success in higher education, particularly within institutions where researchers focus on the factors that lead to students’ dropout.
There are also significant number of specialised support unit limits that provide institution-wide support to support teaching and learning innovation. We do not have this information as a department in terms of ... [Inaudible.] ... is located in the institutions what we are collecting thus far from 2016-17 is just a throughput rate and the dropout rate.
In terms of the role of the department, we provide specialised funding – I need to say – though our university capacity development drive to support student’s success initiatives and learning and teaching innovations because we are of the view that it’s not enough to merely have students getting NSFAS, it is also important to give institutions funding to actually have strong student’s support in order to improve the pass rate and throughput rate. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you Minister. The second follow-up question is from the hon De Bruyn on the virtual platform. Hon De bruyn?
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, your department has made it clear in the past that NSFAS is not a loan but rather a grant. Minister, with a large number of
students receiving NSFAS, there are dropouts without financial implications. Would you and your department consider the new approach where students’ dropout be liable for at least a certain percentage of the funds they received in order to firstly motivate the students to achieve their goals and finish their studies and secondly to bring into the notion by some that NSFAS can be just a paid holiday. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon House Chair. I wish to say to the hon De Bruyn that we have not taken a decision that students who dropped out must pay back the support that they have actually received. We have not taken such a decision. We are however at the moment undertaking through a ministerial task team an extensive development of a comprehensive student funding model which will also require some policy changes. Where there are such policy in future may require that students who drop out or fail must actually pay will be considered within that context, but so far we have taken no such decision.
Hon De Bruyn is also willing to propose that as a suggestion as we are now in a process – we have started a process I have announced in the media to actually put forward the 18 recommendations from the ministerial task team with we had in
student funding. If the hon De Bruyn feels strongly about that matter is welcome to put that as a proposal as we develop these new sets of the funding regime. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you Minister. The third follow-up question is from the hon Dlamini. Hon Dlamini?
Ms M DLAMINI: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, after students who dropped out, how many of those were a result of late NSFAS payments? Has there been any assessment check if the funds are sufficient to cover all costs needed, such as accommodation, study materials and meals, seeing how the economy is already moving at a rapid pace for consumption of basic needs? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Dlamini. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you, hon House Chair. I think I have partly answered the question from the hon Dlamini. I said that the information we are collecting is so far only on statistics. For instance, how many students are receiving NSFAS have passed and how many have dropped out. As I have said, we have not started
compiling the reasons for that. Some of the institutions are actually compiling the reasons. So, I am not in a position therefore to say what are the different reasons for dropouts, whether amongst those reasons is failure for NSFAS to actually pay on time. Yes, there are challenges in institutions for NSFAS sometimes not being able to pay on time, but those are very few instances as opposed to generally the ability of NSFAS to both pay the institutions for tuition fees, accommodation as well as pay students’ allowances. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. The fourth follow-up question is from the hon Aucamp. Hon Aucamp?
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you House Chairperson. Hon Minister, South Africa as you rightly know is one of the highest university dropout rates which is between 50% to 60% of first year students not returning for their second year. These figures are increasing year-on-year, which is very alarming. What is your department doing to provide support to those students at higher institutions of learning to minimise this effect? Furthermore, are these students who drop out being tracked and supported to ensure that they do not become
statistics of the Neet dilemma - not in employment, education or training. Can you please answer that? Thank you, hon Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Aucamp. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you, hon Aucamp. Thank you, hon House Chair. I don’t know where are these figures that the hon Aucamp is talking about. The averages that I have pointed out is that the dropout rate is at 32,4%, not half. As much as we are not happy that 32% is still high and for NSFAS students’ to drop out is down at 28%. That is now tracking over a 10-year period since the year 2000 – and that is the throughput rate for NSFAS is actually 71,3%. I have also already said that in addition to giving students NSFAS allowance, we are also giving institutions funding for students’ support.
We have a comprehensive programme which we call University Capacity Development Programme. We also have a programme to work closely with our Technical and Vocational Education and training, TVET, colleges to make sure we strengthen students’ support services. Amongst other things by the way, higher
health that the Deputy Minister was talking about also looks after the health and wellness of the students which is also a contributory factor to dropouts so that the money that government spends is not wasted by having high dropout rates. All these measures are beginning to show that we are actually now making a big difference as shown by the low rate of student dropouts who are NSFAS beneficiaries and we hope that this will also improve as time goes on. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. Members in the House are reminded that there is organised tea outside.
Question 129:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, I hope that those online are also invited to that coffee outside the House. [Laughter.] One employee was investigated on allegations of directly and or indirectly doing business with the state, and one investigation has been concluded. On question (a)(ii) there is none, the case is at a disciplinary stage and it is not yet finalised because the disciplinary enquiry under (c) is pending. That is in the Department of Science and Innovation.
In the Department of Higher Education and Training, yes, in the current financial year the department has taken disciplinary actions for fraud and corruption against 10 officials in the department; two for fraud and corruption and seven for fraud. Under (a)(ii) it’s one for fraud, under (b) eight has been dismissed and three months suspension without pay for one employee. On (c) it is 30 days, 47 days, 49 days,
80 days, 83 days, 90 days, 149 days, 178 days and 148 days.
Please take note that the days referred to are working days. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Mr A ARNOLDS: House Chairperson, thank you to the hon Minister for the response on the question. Minister, the process of disciplinary management in the public service is often smeared with challenges and alarming concerns such as lengthy disciplinary cases, misuse of precautionary suspensions, salaries paid to officials while they sit at home on prolonged suspensions and ineffective enforcement of consequence management. What positive preventative measures have been implemented in institutions of higher learning? Please provide details.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
House Chair, thank to hon Arnolds. I want to say that the
Department of Science and Innovation follows guidelines informed by the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for the Public Service Resolution 1 of 2003 which deals mainly with discipline and does not make provision for investigation processes. However, what is important is that the adopted practice for investigation in public service as a whole is 60 days, and we have put mechanisms to be able to call to account those who are unable to finish processes within 60 days.
In the Department of Higher Education and Training the resolution that also regulates discipline is not as explicit regarding the timeframe for conduction the investigation.
Nevertheless, I have also put in place similar measures that all investigations and disciplinary measures must be completed within 60 days, and that disciplinary hearings should be completed within 90 days.
We try our best to enforce this within our departments because we share precisely the same concerns as the hon Arnolds. You cannot be having endless disciplinary processes, but sometimes the delays are due to due processes with employees appealing and exercising their right. That, unfortunately, sometimes is the price we pay for the democratic South Africa which is not a banana republic. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon House Chair, to the hon Minister, at Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges the main types of corruption reported are procurement and employment irregularities as well as abuse of authority. There have also been reports of theft of resources, bribery and extortion with municipal officials where college executives and administrators are most often implicated. Institutions are being destroyed by these challenges, and it appears that the higher education system has been captured. Hon Minister Blade Nzimande, it appears that your blade has become blunt in the fight against corruption in your own department; you have failed to cut out corruption. You have failed the higher education sector as total collapse is imminent. Will you agree to step down amid this crisis and admit that your blade has become blunt? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, thanks to the hon member despite a very uncomplimentary follow up. I do not expect that from the opposition in any case. I just want to dispute and dismiss what he is saying that I do not follow up disciplinary matters. Where there are disciplinary issues, cases of corruption, fraud and so on, I always make sure that we actually do take action. Now, it is not very helpful for the
hon member just to posture here in an opposition’s fashion and say that I don’t take steps. I challenge you, hon member, to come with complete evidence and say that there is such and such a case that was brought to my attention or reported and nothing was done about it. Then we can talk, rather than this posturing by the opposition.
Why should I step down just because of oppositionist posturing in the House? If you have evidence bring it to my attention and say here and here you didn’t act, Minister. As far as I am concerned, I have actually acted and I have made sure that the Director-General of the department is able to oversee that where action needs to be taken is actually taken in terms of the law and in terms of the procedures as I have spoken about some of them. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chair, to the hon Minister, I would wish to ask whether the Minister is able to provide an update on employees to have been found conducting fraudulent activities; whether the Minister is able to provide details on how the department will try and retrieve a share of the monies lost through fraud and corruption; and further, if the department has sought to reimburse the department through the retirement fund of the individuals? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, I would request to Bhungane to submit this as a written question that I can actually answer because this is new and not what I was asked about in the original question. On specific incidences of fraud, the latest that I have taken action on is in the National Skills Fund. I have now reported the matter to the Hawks and we have also opened cases and started charging staff inside the department who are implicated in this. If hon Bhungane wants to have detailed information, can he please ask this question specifically as a written question? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. The hon Minister is correct, let me also remind hon members that follow up questions should always be linked to the original question. The fourth follow up question if from hon Gillion. Hon Gillion?
Ms M N GILLION: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister for your responses to the questions.
Minister, mine is very simple, and I think you did give an indication on this question. My follow up is about your standard turnaround time for investigation processes and finalisation of disciplinary cases in the department. I also
want to say that the ANC still has confidence in your leadership in this department and we don’t support this stepping down from the opposition. Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chair, let me thank hon Gillion for the complimentary remarks which are indeed true. As the ANC we are committed to fighting corruption, and in my department I don’t take anything that doesn’t deal with that.
As hon Gillion has said, I have already hinted on some of this to say that I have given an instruction to my department that all disciplinary processes and investigations for misconduct must be done within 60 days as per the procedures followed in the public service and that the disciplinary hearings themselves must be completed within 90 days. As I have said, disciplinary hearings, however, may take longer than 90 days to conclude in some cases with the following factors contributing to time limit being exceeded: Provision of medication certificates, the absence of trade union representatives and the delay by the presiding officers in issuing either findings or outcome reports due to other commitments in their areas of responsibility as there are no fulltime officials appointed to preside over disciplinary
cases. We normally rely on outside people who act as chairpersons or conveners of such disciplinary processes. On our part and my part the rules are very clear; 60 days for investigation and 90 days to complete disciplinary processes. Thank you very much, hon Gillion and hon House Chair.
Question 122:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, House Chairperson, following interactions with the councils of the three institutions and the outcomes thereof, the following has occurred: Firstly, that at the Central University of Technology, CUT, the Minister has appointed an independent assessor, Prof Norman Duncan, according to the reference as outlined in the Government Gazette, 47281, dated 10 October 2022, the terms of reference focused on a range of issues relating to governance and management concerns at the institution.
Secondly, with regard to University of SA, the Minister has appointed Prof Mosia as an independent assessor, according to the Government Gazette, 46904, published on 13 September 2022, and the terms of reference were also duly gazetted. They relate to a range of serious allegations relating governance and management challenges at the university.
Lastly, the same applies to Mangosuthu University of Technology where the Minister has appointed Prof Lourens van Staden as the administrator taking over the role of the university council for a period of up to 24 months. The terms of reference are also outlined in the Government Gazette, 47280, which was made public on 10 October 2022. Thank you, House Chair.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, in a media release, this year, from the Minister in June, he expressed his concern about continuing instability in post-school education institutions. Now, maladministration and instability in higher education institutions are on the rise. The recent study also showed that the most pressing issues were poor leadership, management skills, and challenges facing lecturers in various aspects of teaching and learning, amongst which, were blatant shortcomings in their capabilities to meet the competencies required for effective learning. How is Higher Education ensuring that qualified management is appointed at institutions of higher learning and that adequate resources and training are available to lecturing and managing staff to improve the overall management of institutions? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, House Chair, I think as we have indicated that the major challenges are basically the institutions that we have outlined and to indicate that we remain a committed department and Ministry to ensure that we attend to whatever issues or crises that may emerge at institutions higher learning.
We are quite excited that there is general stability in most of our institutions and that in instances where there are cases that were reported either at the department or in the media, if the Minister believes that there is a necessity for intervention, such intervention will be made.
It remains our responsibility to ensure that all our institutions in the post-school education and training sector remain stable and provide learning and teaching to all South Africans and that the governance of those institutions remain competent and that intervention is made where necessary. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, House Chair, my question has been covered by hon Christians. Thank you.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, how many institutions of higher learning are currently under investigations by the department for serious allegations of maladministration and poor governance? What are the relevant details in each case? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, hon member, there are three institutions where interventions have been made as I have indicated. I have indicated what the reasons are and those institutions are the CUT, Unisa and Mangosuthu. Other than this, there is no investigation taking place in any of the institutions that may have been necessitated by a directive either from the Minister or from the department.
We monitor all the institutions for governance challenges. We also consider information that is brought by the public that we may be aware of and that through the formal reporting of public institutions on an annual basis and council assessment
... the Minister is also guided by the Higher Education Act in terms of when and under what circumstances the interventions can be carried out. It’s only those three institutions and based on the points that I have made on the initial response.
I think further can be sought in the different Government Gazettes that I have mentioned.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, the task team report paints a picture of evasive incompetence, a culture of noncompliance, lack of consequence management, management failures and financial mismanagement. The implementation of the report recommendations needs urgent attention. By when can see – you have mentioned the appointments – stability in these institutions, which is very important also with regard to the students that are going to be affected by the institutions? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, House Chairperson and hon member, I think as specified the terms either of the assessor or that of the administrator, which is in the case of Mangosuthu University of Technology. I clearly stipulated and on a continuous basis the assessors or administrators provide the report to the Minister and the department so that we are able to monitor the progress that has been made with regard to creating stability in those institutions. I think we can confidently say that with the introduction assessors/administrator in these institutions, we have seen
some relative stability. We will continue to monitor what is happening in those institutions. If there is a need of any form of further intervention, it will be done. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 115:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: House Chairperson, the forensic investigation firm completed the investigation wherein different categories of findings were made. Some are grave in the sense that they recommend further criminal investigations and some require disciplinary measures against internal officials in the National Skills Fund. The Minister has forwarded the report as it is, as received from the forensic investigators to
the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa. The department is in the process of submitting the report to the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education, Science and Innovation. I must add that certain measures have been put in place to put the recommendations of the report in motion.
Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thank you, hon House Chair. According to the assessment of the department, has any confidential report regarding the investigations into the National Skills Fund
been leaked to the media or the external interested parties? If it so indeed, what measures or a plan is the Ministry putting in place to mitigate against such leakages from recurring? Thank for the elaborated answer, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Thank you, hon member and also House Chair. There is evidence that the confidential report that was submitted to Scopa was leaked to the media. For instance, the article by Mzilikazi wa Afrika states that a Member of Parliament who has leaked the report to the Sunday Independent asked to remain anonymous, sand it aid:
Nzimande was trying to keep the report confidential to protect certain individuals.
In fact, it is important that we point this out that the report was shared following the request by the Scopa. It was leaked after it was submitted to Scopa. The Minister intended to safeguard the report until all internal due processes in implementing the recommendations of the investigation report were concluded.
But above assertion was not considered and the Minister’s instance on the confidentiality of the report during the Scopa meeting was part of the mitigation measures against the leak. Following the leak, the Minister on 09 October issued a media statement out rightly dismissing insinuations contained in Afrika’s article since there is nothing to hide. The assertion about confidentiality of the report was solely intended to ensure that due processes are followed in this regard. Thank you so much, House Chairperson.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.
English:
Deputy Minister, which challenges has the Minister faced since the establishment of the National Skills Fund? Please, provide details of corrupt elements faced and measures taken to combat such. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Well, there are no details that I have in hand in that regard. All that we were asked to furnish the NCOP with is as it relates to this particular investigation into the National Skills Fund. Outside of that there has not been or
cannot be any other incident that relates to allegations of corruption or maladministration. This case that arise from this question are themselves being attended to. So, to my knowledge there has not been any incident that relates to the member’s question relating to the National Skills Fund, NSF, corruption outside of this particular case. Yeah, that’s it. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chair. The question is, it is reported that the National Skills Fund is responsible for R1,3 billion in wasteful expenditure. Whether the Minister is able to provide details on the steps being taken to trace and retrieve a share of this money, and what steps towards consequence management are being taken against officials at the entity? If not, why not; and if so, please, provide details. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: House Chair, as I indicated the recommendations of this report are being implemented. We are going to ensure it - those officials at the National Skills Fund and also any other party that is mentioned in the report. If they fail to provide reasonable explanation in terms of what was done, actions will be taken. So, there is no intention in any way to try and hide
either the report or to shield certain individuals or to ensure that people who might have committed crime against the state basically gets away with that. In terms of recouping monies that may have been lost in the process, the necessary legislations and policies will guide us throughout this process.
Mr M R BARA: Thank you, House Chairperson.
IsiXhosa:
... siyayivala ngoku ...
English:
Deputy Minister, the Minister was recently chastised by Scopa’s chairperson for trying to hide the report showing gross misconduct and mismanagement of funds which was almost R5 billon not accounted for in the past two financial years. How many of those implicated were charged? At what point will the process be done and dealt with and we see the outcomes?
What is the future relevance of the National Skills Funds? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
INNOVATION: Let me start with the last question - the last
part of the question. The Minister has appointed a ministerial task team on the review of the National Skills Fund. That task team has made various recommendations in terms of what needs to happen as it relates to the National Skills Fund so that we avoid some of the issues that have emanated relating to alleged financial mismanagement or any other form maladministration. But at the gist of that, obviously, has been to really review the structures, governance, bureaucratic arrangements and the manner in which the National Skills Fund has been executing its mandate. A commitment has been made to ensure that we look positive at the recommendations that came out of the ministerial task team and ensure that those recommendations have an impact on the way in which the NSF will be functioning into the future. That’s the one part.
The second part is that, there has been no intention either on the part of the Minister or on the part of the department to hide the report. The reason why we requested Scopa to exercise confidentiality, as it relates to the report, was that the report was handed to the Minister and the department raw as it was. It required certain processes to be followed in order for certain individuals who were mentioned in the report not to learn about the allegations against them in the media and all of that. But also it was to protect the process in such a way
that due processes or undue processes should not be used as a defence by those who have been pointed by the report as having had committed whatever allegations that were levelled against them. So, there is no intention to hide the report. There is no intention to defend any individuals. As I said the processes in terms of consequence management and all of that are already being followed. They are already being initiated by the department. We will continuously inform Parliament and everyone who has an interest in this matter in terms of this whole case is going to be unfolding. At the end of the day, without any fear or favour without trying to sweep things under the carpet, everyone who has been implicated by the report will ultimately face the music.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, the question brought in by hon Christian has been brought to my attention that Rule 231 wont kick-in because it was properly attended to and the written reply was sent to the affected member. Hon delegates, I would like to ...
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on a point of order. Rule 231 says, if I may read it:
If the responsible Cabinet member has not replied in writing to a question within 10 working days of the day for which the question was set down for written reply, and the member in whose name the question stands so requests, the Secretary must place the question on the Question Paper for oral reply.
The answer to the question that we are talking about now came this afternoon, half an hour before the plenary. It cannot be withdrawn because there is no Rule in this book that gives the secretary the right to overrule the Rule because the question was already on the Order Paper and it is a question that has been replied on the day of the plenary. If we are going to start a precedence for Ministers to wait until the day that the question is in the House, we are really on the wrong way.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, I understand the Rule very well and as you have read it, and it is the correct Rule. And that’s what I know. But as a presiding officer I am bringing to the House that it has been brought to my attention about what happened. If ever there is anything wrong in terms of the number of days, I thinks that can be attended to properly. But it cannot be that I am just doing it for the sake of avoiding it. I will always respect
the Rules of the House. That is why I am saying that if there is anything which was in terms of the procedure not done properly we need to have a way of how we are going to deal with situations of this nature. I totally agree with you.
Allow me, hon delegates, to thank the Minister, hon Dr Nzimande, the Deputy Minister, hon Manamela, permeant delegates, special delegates and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives for availing themselves to this sitting to answer questions in the NCOP.
The Council adjourned at 16:54.
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