Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 14 Sep 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch: Plenary
The House met at 15:00.
The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUSTIONS TO MINISTERS
Cluster 3 - Governance
Question 473:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, and hon members, the answer is, yes, there are improvements in the performance of some of the municipalities mentioned that are placed under administration, particularly the Amahlathi Local Municipality. Amahlathi Local Municipality, this is what happened; A functional audit committee was established; The financial delegations were instituted; Negotiations with creditors were undertaken; A financial turnaround plan was adopted by the municipal council; Improved legislative compliance was registered in the annual report and financial statements were prepared and submitted and meetings were held according to the schedule of ordinary municipal council meetings. As a result, there have been improvements also in their audit outcomes from qualified audits in 2018-2019 to unqualified audits in the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 financial years. In Walter Sisulu Local Municipality, the improvements noted included the filling of critical vacancies such as the municipal manager, the chief financial officer and the general manager of corporate services. There have been improvements in the functionality of the human resource component and the supply chain management policy was developed and implemented for the running of the procurement management process. Regrettably, there were improvements but this did not translate into sustained improved audit opinions.
In Enoch Mgijima, the Eastern Cape provincial executive in August 2018 placed the Enoch Mgijima Local Municipality under administration in terms of Section 139(1)(B) and (5) of the Constitution. Unfortunately, the intervention did not yield positive results, particularly as it related to the implementation of the financial recovery plan. The Cabinet then invoked Section 139(7) of the Constitution read with Section 150 of the Municipal Financial Management Act of 2003, wherein the Cabinet imposed a financial recovery plan and assumed the responsibility for its implementation. The national Cabinet representative was appointed to lead the intervention team in April 2022.
To complement efforts by the National Treasury, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs appointed a task team to support the efforts of the national Cabinet representative. It is still early to tell if there are any improvements yet as work is ongoing and may take time to address all the issues. The Raymond Mhlaba and the Dr Beyers Naudé Local Municipalities, contrary to the view of the hon member, the Raymond Mhlaba and Dr Beyers Naudé Local Municipalities were never placed under administration.
And the second part of the question, the answer is no. The department has no intention of putting more municipalities and administration. In any case, the responsibility to intervene in a municipality is vested with the provincial government in terms of Section 139(1) to (5). It is only when the provincial government fails to intervene in such dysfunctionality that the national government would consider putting such a municipality under national intervention. Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, hon Minister, these municipalities are under administration as they are unable to adequately fulfil their executive mandate and legislative obligations. I would like to know, what are some of the consequence management implementations that have been recommended for those officials who have been found guilty of mismanagement or poor governance? And what is the government’s commitment to ensuring that the recommendations are carried through? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon member Buthelezi, obviously if an official is found guilty, depending on what he or she is guilty of, there are consequences. And if you were to mention specifics, then we could deal with that. Thank you.
Mr B M HADEBE: Minister, experience has shown that the answer to an underperforming municipality is not resolved by placing them under administration, rather deal with the root cause of underperformance and show appropriate support to match the diagnosis. What will your perspective be in this regard?
Secondly, has the root cause analysis which necessitated these interventions in such municipalities been dealt with? Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga. Sithokoze, mama.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZOMDABU:
Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa uHadebe, labo omasipala abanazo izinkinga ezifanayo ngakhoke ngeke usho ukuthi nansi into ekufanele uyenze kubo bonke. Yebo, ngiyavumelana nawe ukuthi kufanele sibheke ukuthi umsuka wenkinga yini kumasipala nomasipala. Umangabe-ke sesifuna isisombululo, leso sisombululo sibheke enkingeni. Ngakhoke siyavumelana lapho. Kodwa-ke esikubhekayo manje ukuthi kufanele ukuthi singalindi njengoba sibahlaziya omasipala, sibambisane nezifundazwe ukuthi yini ukusekelwa okunganikezwa kulowo masipala uma kubonakala ukuthi unenkinga ngaphansi kwesigaba u-154. Kodwa uma kuhlula lapho-ke bese kuyiwa kusigaba u-139, kungabi u-139 ekuqalwa ngawo. Ngiyabonga. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Motshekga, please! Hon Macpherson?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry, Chair, according to the submission to the table, it is hon Brink next.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh! I'm on the lower one. Sorry. Thank you for that. Yes. Hon Brink?
Mr C BRINK: Chair, Minister, it would seem that intergovernmental interventions by the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs are a little bit like President Ramaphosa trying to fill potholes on a dirt road in Delmas, it is just a mess. Has the Minister considered whether and how the national government, including the national government policy such as preferential procurement and BEE, in fact, contribute to the systemic failure of certain municipalities? Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZOMDABU:
Ngiyabonga, into engingayisho nje ukuthi njengamanje siphezu kokuthi sibheke ukuthi kule minyaka engu-21 yomasipala kabanzi senze isibuyekezo sibone ukuthi yini esebenza kahle, yini engasebenzi kahle, yini efuna ukushintshwa, yini engafuni ukushintshwa. Yilokho-ke esikwenzayo njengamanje. Ngiyabonga.
English:
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Chair, it is a fact that some municipalities are even worse off after they have been placed under administration and such municipalities do not comply with Section 138 of the Municipal Finance Management Act. And in the light of what the President said at the SA Local Government Association, Salga, meeting, if you want to see real state capture you must look at local government and that municipal capture leads to wasteful expenditure and bad service delivery. Would the Minister then instigate an independent forensic investigation into those municipalities that do not improve after intervention? Because the intervention team must surely then be part of municipal state capture Thank you, Chair.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZOMDABU: Leyo
ye-state capture ikhulunywa iJaji uZondo, hhayi mina. Uyena obhekene naso. Ngeke ngibhekane-ke ne-state capture mina la ngizobhekana nomasipala.
Question 463:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, if we look at the Auditor-General’s report it does not paint a picture of very deterioration as stated. If you look at the outcomes between 2016 and 2017 and 2020and 2021 financial years, the most recent consolidated general report of the local government audit outcomes reflects an improvement on unqualified audit opinion. In 2019-20, 128 municipalities obtained unqualified audit opinion for both unqualified audit opinions with no findings and with findings.
In 2021, 141 municipalities obtained unqualified audit opinions both unqualified with no findings and with findings. So, this may be not where we want to be but it is not a deterioration. It is an improvement.
Of course, political parties must send ethical leaders to municipalities. The ethical leadership had both political and administration is critical in the stabilisation of municipalities. The local government audit outcomes and cost state of local government report concerns the correlation between failures in governance as a main driver of poor performance and undesired audit outcomes. To address the challenges, the Municipal Support and Intervention Framework has been developed by the Department of Co-operative Governance, and Traditional Affairs convinced by the provinces, by the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and National Treasury to provide guidance on the development, implementation and monitoring of the municipal improvement plan.
On 20 September 2022 which is next Tuesday, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will be launching the Local Government Anti-Corruption Forum and the Local Government Ethical Leadership Initiative in collaboration with key stakeholders. The Local Government Ethical Leadership Initiative project aims to facilitate a national dialogue on ethical leadership in municipalities culminating in the development of a code for ethical government for municipalities. That’s how the principle in practices in ethical government and leadership in local government.
The B part of the question, the stability of municipal administration is an important component both in building capacity and in creating a conducive environment. To strengthen institutional capacity, the Minister promulgated the local government municipal staff regulation which prescribed minimum competency requirement for staff below the senior management which should be viewed as a game changer in the professionalisation of local government.
The department also intend rolling out the protocol staff establishment project in municipalities to address challenges in the organograms in the municipality. The department has through the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, place civilian and electric engineers in provinces to assist municipalities in planning and in executing of infrastructure projects. The focus of these engineers is on poor performing municipalities and those that lack technical capacity to deal with a service delivery. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think I should also remind members about the time for questions in that the first question that is being replied to by the member of the executive is four minutes. And all the supplementary question is two minutes. That’s Rule 142 and 7. And then the second supplementary question ... Do you want to say something? I am still talking on this. The first supplementary question, the member is allowed to use two minutes and subsequently other members who do followed up is one minute.
So, I don’t want to sound rude without reminding you because I am going to stop you even if you are not done. So, to be safe, please move away from preambles especially those doing the supplementary questions. Hon Mcpherson?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Thanks Chair and thanks for reminding members of about the times because 142 (3) states the Minister response must be four minutes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: The Minister has spoken now twice for more than four minutes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Not twice. It is only now
Mr D W MACPHERSON: And if the Minister can speak slightly close to the microphone members will be able to hear because members are struggling to hear.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. No, I remember as a Chair, its four minutes. And for supplementary is also two minutes and one minute for those asking. But don’t forget that sometimes the discretion works. That’s why I am reminding members now. Hon Mpumza?
Mr G G MPUMZA: Minister, one of the key witnesses that give rise to the Auditor-General’s findings is the poor performance
and at times of complexity of the Municipal Public Accounts Committee. What is the view of the Minister that needs to be done both to protect and strengthen Public Account Committee?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: To strength the oversight some of the intervention were made through the new provision of the Municipal Structure Amendment Act which empowers Municipal Public Account Committee amongst others to consider issues raised by the Auditor-General subsequent to 2021 local government election and the establishment of apex the department in collaboration with National Treasury, Salga and other provincial counterparts embarked on induction programmes and workshops for impex. Furthermore, the department establish impex national forum which comprise of the Department of National Treasury, Salga and Auditor-General’s office and provincial counterparts to engage on support and monitoring of the functionality of impex. Thank you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, the problems experienced by municipalities have been highlighted every single year by the Auditor-General. For example, there is a long standing section
106 report for Nala Municipality in the Free Sate that has never been actioned.
The Auditor-General has repeatedly identified the same problems for municipalities such as Amahlathi and Makana in the Eastern Cape. Why has there been no remedial action taken based on the findings of the Auditor-General on many of these dysfunctional municipalities over past 10 years? Why have the same people who caused the problems not dealt with? Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon Mkhaliphi, you just mentioned the municipality of Amahlathi and earlier I explained what we have done in Amahlathi and even told this House that they have got an unqualified audit. So, I don’t know why you are mentioning it as one of those municipalities where nothing is happening.
Thank you. Hon Brink?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson? May I make a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Mkhaliphi.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: The Minister, I mentioned three municipalities including Nala, Amahlathi and Makana but why the Minister is specifically responding on Amahlathi. Can the
Minister, Chairperson, answer the question as has indicated. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Yes, if hon members want details about each municipality, they must tell me before I come to the House. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Presently, the Minister is not responding and can we proceed. Yes, hon Nasier?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I think I have responded to you on that. What is it now.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, the question specifically asked standing section 106 report for Nala municipality.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes. No, no, we heard the Minister. Please sit down. I heard what you are saying.
Mr M N PAULSEN: It means she doesn’t know what is happening.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please, take your sit.
Mr M N PAULSEN: She does not want to respond.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, take your sit, hon Paulsen, please. The hon Minister has responded and as always I will remind you that sitting in this chair I don’t have any right to tell any member of the executive how to respond. And you know what you can do with the dissatisfaction. Please, let’s allow this process to go on. Hon Brink?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhaliphi, is that a point of order that I have ruled on.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chair. This is not on, Chairperson, we come here prepared but now if the Minister ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I hear you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I hear you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Its wrong, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I hear you but unfortunately we can’t resolve that in the House. You know the processes that can be taken. I have ruled on that matter and I am not going back to it. Thank you very much. Hon Brink?
Mr C BRINK: Chairperson, when it comes to audit outcomes the Minister’s own Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has quite a bad record with string of audit disclaimers unqualified audit as well as billions in irregular expenditure still hasn’t been addressed relating to the Community Work Programme. Does the Minister consequently find it difficult to preach good audit outcomes to municipalities?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I am not yet a disclaimer since I arrived in this department. Yes, I find disclaimers in the department. So, I do not find it difficult to preach good governance and audit to municipalities. But let me explain, there are 257 municipalities and if you are going to as a follow up question
just raise any municipality, I don’t have all that information in my head about all the municipalities. It’s not that I don’t want to answer, hon Mkhaliphi. She can ask a question specific on the municipality in a written question or oral I will answer. But I can’t be expected to know all 256 and answer every municipality that pops up in the House during question time. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, don’t do that. Hon Shaikh Emam?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, given the poor status of some of the municipalities particularly the high levels of corruption and looting ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order, hon members.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... I have requested a list from your Deputy Minister sometimes last year particularly on KwaZulu- Natal for all the tenders that were awarded, who they are, who the directors are, what is the value, whether they were finished in time. But what I want to ask to you today Minister, will you consider putting a mechanism in place at
local municipal level that all tenders that are awarded are advertised in the local community newspapers, the value of the contracts, who the directors and owners of these and whether you are getting value for money? That will go a long way, Minister, I believe it will try to root out corruption particularly at local government level.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I will discuss that with my colleague because as you know Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, is not under my jurisdiction, it is under Treasury. So, I will take the matter to him and we will discuss and see what is possible. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those who are dealing with these cameras, please, assist us. I had an opportunity to be on virtual during the sitting yesterday. This does not go well where you find that there are two pictures, a person is speaking and another picture is behind. It’s just a mix up.
So, let’s check those cameras. We have seen that many a time.
Question 492:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
(Dr M C C Pilane-Majake): House Chair, Dr Schreiber, thank you for asking the question. The deployment committee of the ANC is not an organ of state. Its policies do not constitute law. Consequently, neither the Minister or any executive authority is obliged to implement ANC-recommended strategies outside government policy. Due process always prevails in the event that there is unlawful and unconstitutional conduct on the part of the Minister or an executive authority.
To date, no complaints have been received from any aggrieved party alleging that they have been prevented from openly competing for a position in the public service, or that having competed, they were overlooked as a result of adherence to the so-called deployment policy. Therefore, there has never been any need for disciplinary action against any official affecting the nonexistent or so-called deployment policy of the ANC. Personnel or staff in the public service is recruited through public service regulations – recruited and appointed through public service regulations. I thank you.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Hon Chairperson, clearly Chief Justice Zondo disagrees with everything that you have just said, Deputy Minister. Allow me to quote directly from the State Capture Report:
Within the current constitutional and statutory framework, it is unlawful and unconstitutional for a President of this country, or any Minister or Deputy Minister or director-general or other government official to take into account recommendations of the ANC deployment committee
As you know, the DA has run to court to abolish cadre deployment corruption, in line with this finding by Chief Justice Zondo. However, what has this government done? We have seen it again here today. Instead of supporting the DA’s efforts to implement the findings of the State Capture Commission, President Ramaphosa has chosen to defend cadre deployment by opposing our court case. He has even gone so far as to try and discredit the State Capture Commission, which cost taxpayers over R1 billion, by claiming that its findings are, “... not binding.”
Hon Deputy Minister, you own Department of Public Service and Administration has also joined the President in defending cadre deployment in court against the DA in defiance of the State Capture Commission. Do you, therefore, agree with the President that there is nothing wrong with cadre deployment; and that that the Zondo Commission’s findings are not binding?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Dr M
C C Pilane-Majake): Chairperson, it is unfortunate the way the member actually misread the contents of the Zondo Commission Report. It was based on the misinformation that you have actually provided, giving an impression that the ANC interferes in recruitments and appointments of staff within the public service. This is why the Zondo Commission says this is not allowed.
Of course, it is not allowed, no matter how loud that you actually said that it is not allowed. You keep on repeating it because you think it works in your favour to give South Africans an impression that the ANC goes into government, buzzes everybody out and actually appoints only ANC members, which is not the case.
Nobody has actually ever asked to produce a membership of the ANC when they come looking for work in government. This is what the situation is all about. In terms of the matter, ... [Interjections.] ... before the courts, again you actually misrepresent what the affidavit is all about.
The affidavit is not actually saying that we are cadre deployment; it is actually defending the matter that you have
actually put before the courts, so that they can actually go and make proper representation and not allow you to go and misrepresent government and the ANC in the courts.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please, I nearly asked the Deputy Minister to sit down because you were not prepared to listen to her, you were making noise. Mama Kibi, please start!
Ms M T KIBI: Hon Chair and hon Deputy Minister, what we know is that appointments are made with due respect to qualifications and a match between competencies and job functions required in the public service. However, the matter of capability is a much harder requisite skill to achieve. In dealing with appointments, how is capability tested to ensure correct appointments are being made?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Dr M
C C Pilane-Majake): Hon Chair and hon Kibi, it is in the interest of public service to appoint skilled, capacited and experienced public servants in order to manage to carry out the mandate of the public service in an efficient and effective manner. This is why recruitments, appointments,
assessments within public service are actually properly guided by policies of the public service in government. Thank you.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, from a principled point of view, a party that wins elections should have the leeway to appoint to positions people who are familiar with its policy positions and are trusted. These people must, however, possess the skills and intellectual capacity-provided leadership, as you have said, and not the appointment merely on the basis of their political party membership, even though they are corrupt and incompetent.
What have you done to tighten the process of the appointment to ensure that these who get appointments, regardless of their political beliefs, are competent and incorruptible? Are you satisfied with the outputs from the National School of Governance in training civil servants despite the poor quality of the curriculum there?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Dr M
C C Pilane-Majake): Hon Chair, hon Motsepe, I wouldn’t be in a position to assist you if you continue to be suspicious of what is actually been done in government. We all know that within the constitutional democracy that we are operating in,
everybody’s rights are protected. Where rights are being violated, everybody has got a right to challenge the violation of that particular right.
So, there is no political party that can ever come into government and actually manage to just appoint only their members. This is also the situation with the ANC. We are not appointing our members; we appoint South Africans because we know that once we win elections, we don’t represent only members of the ANC, but we represent South Africans.
In terms of the National School of Government, I hear you doubt the ability and skills of the people who are actually providing services within the National School of Government. Let me just remind you that the National School of Government also is not actually run by ANC cadres.
It is run by South Africans who are skilled, who have experience, who have got capacity and who are supposed to actually capacitate all public servants, regardless of which political party they come from. This is why we are actually looking forward to manage to build a capable developmental state, with the kind of public servants whom we will be in the position to have after the training. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): One more reminder before I call the next follow-up question: It is on Rule 142(7) that you cannot ask more than one question on a follow up. Hon Shaik Emam!
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, The truth is that all political parties only employ people from their own parties in official positions. That is a fact, but all political parties – all of them. Hon Deputy Minister, there is an ideal example of someone in Parliament – in this particular House – that has been appointed. He doesn’t have the skills, does not have the qualification and does not have the experience - earning R2,2 million.
There is no position in the structure currently. The audit outcomes clearly indicated he did not have the experience and the qualifications but he still got the job. Somebody in this Parliament committed suicide and your Public Service Commission found him guilty –wanting – in terms of his conduct with his employers here. Yet, Parliament has now extended his contract for another year.
Now you tell me, Deputy Minister: Is this correct ... [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Dr M
C C Pilane-Majake): Hon Chair, hon Shaik Emam, what I need to actually remind you is also a separation of powers. If you talk about matters within Parliament, from Public Service and Administration, we wouldn’t be in a position to manage to actually deal with them because Parliament is an independent arm of state. We actually focus on government departments. I thank you.
Question 464:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: The department facilitated the development of comprehensive national gender-based violence prevention strategy. It is the first one of its kind. The strategy is significantly aligned to Pillar 2: Prevention and Rebuilding of Social Cohesion and of the National Strategy on the Gender- Based Violence and Femicide.
Furthermore, the National Strategic Plan, NSP, on Gender-based Violence addresses the challenges of poverty, gender-based violence and focuses on economic empowerment of women in Pillar 5. The pillar recognises the clear link between gender- based violence and economic dependence and seeks to ensure that obstacles to women’s economic autonomy are effectively
addressed. The pillar sets out to transform the structural makeup of the South African economy by systematically increasing access control, ownership and productive resources to women. It strengthens the participation in the world of work in order to address the economic drivers of gender-based violence across local, provincial and national spheres of government and ...
We would do this working together with ... enhance also the partnership that is growing, working with national Development Plan, the District Development Model, DDM, and all people in our country. This is ...
Xitsonga:
... indlopfu ya hina.
English:
We have to eat it in chunks, but the reality is more women are killed by their own ... [Inaudible.] ... in our country.
Ms N V MENTE: May I rise on a point of order, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mente, yes. What is your point of order?
Ms N V MENTE: The Minister is speaking very far away from the microphone. We can’t hear anything about this important question about gender-based violence. Even if she can start from the beginning. We are struggling to hear her.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Yes, I can see that the microphone is not directly with her, that’s why I had asked that she change seats so that she can stand directly next to the microphone. Okay, I will allow the Minister to sit down. It is better when you are seated, ma. Just proceed from where you ended.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Does the Chair want me to start from the beginning?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. Start where you ended.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Or would you like to start from the beginning?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I have finished answering, unless there are supplementary questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Ooh, were you done? Okay, thank you. I am sorry. I thought maybe it’s me who disturbed you with the point of order. Hon members, please, please. The noise is too much.
Sepedi:
Mme Phiri, tiwela pele.
Moh C M PHIRI: Modulasetulo, nna Tona ke go kwele. Karabo ya gago e hlalosa gore go na le tlhokomelo ye kgolokgolo ya go hlohloletia le go lekanya maatla magareng ga mafapha, kudukudu ya badudi le mafapha ao a tswalanago le tia malapa. Potiiio ya ka go wena Tona ke gore: “Ke efe tshephiio yeo o ka re fago yona ya mmakgonthe yeo o ka yago go e hlagiia go Kabinete yeo e ka tswalanyago mafapha a kamoka. Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.
TONA KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE: BASADI, BASWA LE BATHO BAO
BA SA ITEKANELAGO: Ke a leboga leloko. Ke re ...
Xitsonga:
... indlopfu ya hina leyi.
English:
We have never had such pandemic ...
Ndebele:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): BabuZwane, akhe uthi i- mic leyo uyithi kancane - arha ke. Ragela phambili.
English:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We are working with all government departments, particularly with the interministerial committee, IMC, and report monthly to the President as to the development in this area that we are working in. In a collaborative fashion, we signed memorandums of understanding, MOUs, with other departments such as Basic Education, Agriculture and many others where we deemed it is necessary, to augment the work that is being done by the IMC. Indeed, dealing with gender-based violence and femicide-rated social ills, we need
to look at the family structure as the centre of education and development. Family stigmas and beliefs must also be addressed. The interventions that are family focused aimed at changing behaviour should be a priority for development and involvement of community mobilisation.
According to the gender-based violence and femicide legal provisions, one is obliged to ... [Inaudible.] ... sexual offences.
Sepedi:
Ge o e kwa mokgoii ...
English:
... whether it’s a nextdoor neighbour ...
Sepedi:
O re nthuieng ...
English:
... it says no one must be left behind. Meaning, if you hear nthuieng [help me] of a woman ... [Time expired.]
Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, your colleague, Minister Bheki Cele said that a woman is lucky to be raped by one man instead of multiple men. The root cause of gender-based violence remains how men view women and their view on gender-based violence. Minister, you are meant to be at the forefront of ensuring that gender-based violence is being fought against at all levels, in all circles and spaces you find yourself in, and should speak such patriarchy, including those within your own party. Do you agree with Minister Cele’s view? Have you used your position in Cabinet to raise this in order to show that no matter who you are, you cannot say such insensitive things? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Every opportunity we get, if we need to have a peaceful and safe South Africa, it has to start with
... [Inaudible.] ... for it takes a village to raise a child. We cannot raise boy children separate from girl children. We mustn’t orientate them separately. They are all our children and we endeavour to raise them together.
We have also worked with all the five Ministries by forming the IMC to deal with this problem, but the root cause of this is what do the families, communities and the totality of
society say about this menace. We fought COVID-19 together and we only hope that we would be bringing after two years of negotiating with different stakeholders - government and nongovernmental, but also the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, Cabinet, and we are now coming, with permission of Cabinet to the National Assembly to do away with this scourge.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Mam’uKhawula?
Mr K CEZA: Thank you, Chair. I will take the question on behalf of Mam’uKhawula. Minister, we struggle to understand your role in the context of the struggles of women in this country. Women are economically marginalised, and yet you have no programmes of any kind to empower women economically. Women are the daily victims of protecting themselves and this is given to the police alone while you sit and fiddle your fingers. We want to know, Minister, what post-trauma programmes has your department put in place for women who have been sexually violated in this country. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: There is a call centre which we share with
the five Ministries in the IMC appointed by the President and we share the information with the President every month. Like I said, if we are to change this thing that is new to us, we will have to start with the family and orientation of our families and do away with drugs and all linked things that come our way and heightened them up during hard lockdown for it was necessary.
So, we have to come back together and finally, after having consulted all the constituencies, we will move to forming gender-based violence council. It has passed through the other stages, but it will also come to Parliament so that it can be debated and be finalised. We don’t want to leave anyone behind and we will work together as it is our problem – all of us. It is not a problem for women and girl children who are being killed, but it is a problem of socialisation for all our people. We call upon men, particularly those who are of nontoxic masculinity to come to the fore and work with us.
From all walks of life where one has been to, we find that ... [Time expired.]
Mr K CEZA: Chairperson, sorry. Chairperson, I would like to say that the EFF is available for breathing classes and voice projection.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is that a point of order. Bab’u Ceza, that is not a point of order. I am sorry. That is not a point of order. Please let’s not bring frivolous points of order in the House. I have the IFP that should follow but I don’t have the name. Who is taking the supplementary question?
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I will take it on behalf of the hon Hlengwa. He is having load shedding problems. I am here to follow my question if you agree and I am going to follow up on my question on the issue of post-trauma as asked by the hon EFF member. Far too often, hon Chair and Minister, we focus on the victim. We focus on what happened to the victim and what kind of counselling should be made available to the victim.
But little do we realise - and we should be realising - the impact on a family, especially on children within a household who see their parents abused through drug and alcohol abuse. What kind of psychological and social support does your department offer to the family unit, especially to children that may be traumatised from any action of gender-based violence within a household, because we are neglecting those children who are affected by this gender-based violence. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We are working with five Cabinet Ministries in the IMC ... [Inaudible.] ... but this matter needs all of us. It must start from the family to the community and to the society at large. It has to be that we are all concerned with this because the enemy is not from without, but from within.
Question 486:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Chair, with reference to the gender-based violence helpline, in 24 hours we receive many calls which, firstly, would be calling on ... asking for help, asking for
... dealing with dangerous situations that they would be in, to also finding how they should be assisted. We are still working with the ministries of Social Development and Public Works to get adequate places of safety for women in distress. We think we are turning the corner but nevertheless, from ... [Inaudible.] ... to Matatiele to Mpumalanga and to all corners of our country, the lamentation is one.
At one stage ... maybe ... I don’t know ... I don’t want to say it’s traditional ... that if one cries next door ... [Inaudible.] ... but now you will be found liable if you hear
...
Sepedi:
... nthuše hle ...
English:
... but you do nothing about it. We are also moving towards the 16 Days of Activism against ... women and children and girls. We need to work together. This is not a matter for the department or some selected departments but for all of us. If we’ve conquered or we are conquering COVID-19, we should be able to deal with this man-made calamity that is facing us today.
This is a ... [Inaudible.] ... cry. Unemployment, which ... [Inaudible.] ... by the two million people who lost their jobs during COVID, plus the fact that as a young nation we were just emerging from other challenges. So, we think that the Gender-Based Violence and Femicide, GBVF, Council, as and when it is launched as it went through the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, through ... it’s going through Parliament through to Cabinet, would allow us ... it will finally get to the hon members of the House ... to say, how do we deal with it once and for all. It is not a problem of women; it is a problem of society at large.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Order Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Mkhaliphi, what’s your point of order?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, who is the Deputy Minister ... to the Minister for Women in the Presidency?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hu-uh! Order, hon members! Hon members ...
IsiZulu:
... nami ngizophendula.
English:
Hon member, unfortunately, that’s not a point of order. We proceed. Hon Herron, please continue.
Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, I’m not sure that the Minister answered the question. I don’t know how many calls are received in 24 hours on average, but in any event, we agree that the scourge of GBVF is a whole of society problem and that the helpline is an important tool in helping us to address the scourge and to provide some assistance to those
who need it. As a party, we have taken it upon ourselves to amplify the availability of this service through a campaign that we call, Don’t Shut up, Speak up! We are running campaigns on social media and paid for radio advertisements where Good leader, Minister De Lille, is calling on communities to speak up.
However, Minister, when you test the number, sometimes the number is not answered. On occasion when it is answered, the call centre operators are very empathetic and very sympathetic, but the one thing that is perhaps missing is that they are unable to respond to an emergency. If someone is in a situation that constituted a threat to their life or their body, the person on the other side of the call is not able to put that person through to the police or to social services.
So, I’m asking the Minister if it’s not time that we enhance this service, firstly, in making sure that it’s operational but also that it connects to the police and to social services, so that people can be connected to shelters or can get emergency help when it is needed most? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We cannot agree with you more, safe to say that we will never have enough ... disintegrating of families
and putting them in places of safety. We need to make South Africa work and defeat this enemy like we defeated apartheid, working together. None of us should be left behind and none of us should feel ... not being taken ... [Inaudible.] So, this matter is still going to come to Parliament and Parliament would also help because it’s not a challenge of women; it’s women and girl children, and unfortunately ... the last survey, even school children are crying for safety. It’s not a matter for Minister Bheki Cele only but all of us because it’s a man-made problem. We will never have enough shelters but we must also be on the door to help survivors. We should not call them victims forever because that doesn’t help.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Prudence? That’s what is written here. P B Prudence.
Ms G P MAREKWA: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, indeed, in what you are saying, the fight against GBVF needs all of us as South Africans. It cannot just be the department and the police. My question to you, hon Minister is, since the setting up of the GBV Command Centre, has the department conducted an analysis of the nature of cases that are received by the centre? Secondly, how is the national strategic plan doing in its progress towards its defined objectives?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. I hope you took note of 142(7) ... not more than one supplementary question. However, it’s up to the Minister if she wants to respond to both. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Chair, thank you to the member for the question. However, I also want to reiterate that it is going to take all of us to really fight this menace that became worse with COVID. We need to work towards the socioeconomic inclusion of women, so that women don’t stay in toxic relationships for the mere fact of being looked after, when the next thing would be to take them cold out of that kind of situation.
So, our mandate is not only to save women from being hurt but also to open up doors, as the President said, for them to also have a meaning ... to help themselves ... open doors for women to become full participants in the ... [Inaudible.] ... of our country. And that equal jobs ... and of equal value is equal to the remuneration that they get at the end. That has been a problem, even in the civil service.
So, come one come all. We will send the invitations. In October, we will have ... [Inaudible.] ... in partnership with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and in December we will have 16 Days of Activism ... [Inaudible] ... It’s open up ...
IsiZulu:
... amasango ...
English:
... so that women do not stay in relationships because they will be looked after.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Marekwa, my apologies. In the guide it’s Marekwa while in the summary it’s Prudence. Sorry. We now proceed and call on the hon Sharif with her supplementary question.
Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister,
153 women being raped in South Africa every day is evidence that your department continues to fail women in South Africa. In order to have a whole of society approach, how many nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, or civil organisations is the national helpline on GBVF working with to ensure an
effective response to GBVF? How many NGOs and civil organisations do they work with?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much. Women fought side by side with men for a free South Africa. They are not to sit on the floor to collect crumbles but be, as they did, at the centre of where things are going wrong. So, rape ... It’s not a woman raping a man but otherwise.
We also have to work, and we are working with the department of education. We are using the District Development Model. We are looking at all other avenues that we can ... an innovation
... to make sure that women take their rightful place. However, ... where we are sitting, the black woman’s face is a replica of what poverty is in South Africa. So, if we work together and acknowledge that these are not visitors, they are and they have been part and parcel of this South Africa we celebrate today throughout the world, even our Constitution, or starting with our Constitution.
Ms N P SONTI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the reality is that any woman who is a victim of abuse does not know about the existence of this hotline because you have done nothing to
publicise it. Beyond the hotline, women need physical spaces where they can get assistance and advice. Have you engaged with the Department of Social Development and the Department of Police about creating physical safe havens for abused women in the country? If not, why have you not had those engagements?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Again, I will refer you to 142(7) but it is the Minister’s prerogative to respond.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Well, I’ve said it before but I’ll repeat it again. The call centre is shared between the interministerial committee, IMC, appointed by the President, but in particular, it is the Social Development Ministry that pays civil society organisations. We even use radio stations for all other languages ... to know what to say or what to ask when they are in distress. So, we all need to work together to do away with this menace.
Question 465:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, a diagnostic report on the state of planning in the national and provincial
spheres of government was commissioned. It outlined the following:
A number of recommendations which include amongst others capacity building, planning, monitoring and evaluation in government, interlinkages between the spheres of government and the finalisation of integrated development planning framework. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME as our department did develop a policy framework for integrated planning which promotes and improve integration, a harmonisation of planning across the planning system, including national, provincial, local government. and state-owned enterprises.
Further, provides analysis of draft strategic plans and annual performance plans of all spheres, in particular national and provincial. Free rounds of assessing these annual performance plans, APPs do take place. We also as he department developed and piloted an annual performance plan rating tool, to assist national departments in improving the quality of their APPs.
The development of APPs is guided by a revised framework on strategic and annual performance. It issues circulars, provide guidance to ensure that departments plan in line with priorities.
We also have produced a budget prioritisation framework to guide budgeting and allocation of funds in line with the agreed annual plans. In partnership with National School of Governance we have developed a three-day training course, that focuses on theory of change for planning in the public service. The department also holds a number of fora to engage on this phenomenon. Amongst others is National Technical Planning ... [Inaudible] ... Practise for Private Entities, National Steering Committee for Integrated Planning. Thank you Chair.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz S T MANELI: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo.
English:
Minister, on a regular basis the department and National Treasury interfaces with national and provincial departments, in an assessment and some assessment of performance. What kind of findings from these assessment sessions will assist Parliament oversight focus on performance and accountability? Thank you Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much hon member. I am advised that at some stage that exercise did come
to a stop. But having said in giving the opening answer, we are we are processing and it’s a policy that is going to land here in Parliament and translating the legislation and integrated policy framework, which will take care of the objectives that exercise that ...[Inaudible.]
Mr Z N MBHELE: We all know that the ANC’s litany of governance and delivery failures is caused primarily by the culture of chronic, weak accountability for poor performance and misconduct in the public sector, which itself is rooted in the ANC’s cancer of cadre deployment that has infected virtually every department and organ of state. It is only when public officials and political office bearers face the threats of being fired for chronic underperformance and maladministration, when we start seeing a turnaround. The enforcement of this has to start right at the top cascading down to every level of governance.
Minister, when will we start seeing recommendations by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME for the dismissal of dead wood in the public sector and in particular, the enforcement of this hotline by the President by him firing poorly performing Cabinet Ministers ... [Time expired.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much hon member. I am yet to find after an interview, a recommendation to appoint a candidate on the basis that he is a member of the ANC. I am yet to find that in the documents of government, I am yet to find that. Secondly, I am yet to find all these officials from director-general down having been appointed because their curriculum vitae say, you are from Luthuli House. I have not come across that. However, an impression that, there are no excellent pockets in this government would also be misleading. You’ve got performing financial institutions under the leadership - Industrial Development Corporation, IDC yes, SA Special Insurance Risk Association, Sasria which was able to pay insurance is run under this government. Had it not been properly run, it was actually organising in the manner you say it, would not have had the capacity. We have a Treasury ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon McPherson, firstly I don’t know why you are standing because the Minister is responding. Ja, now stop talking.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: All I am trying to say is, we’ve got a number of excellent institutions in this government. Now, well you can make your size. The point I am
making is that, if you take that into account, surely as a demonstration of a government that wants to get things better, as I am talking to you now, I am telling you about a number of interventions whether they are diagnostic or otherwise, all these interventions are intending to turn around government.
Just recently, we have actually announced Vulindlela structural reforms, which have been widely accepted in South Africa. All I am saying is that, if it satisfies you to believe that this government is going down, you must leave that as your comfort. But, people are going to demonstrate as you move on, ... [Time expired.]
Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much hon Chairperson. Minister, the biggest weakness of the government wide monitoring and evaluation system is that, it does not give feedback to performance improvement of the underperforming Ministries and departments to task. Neither do you have authority to modify their performance. With this in mind, should it not be better to live the monitoring, evaluation and reporting to the departments themselves and to hold them accountable for their own failures? Because as it is the Ministry it is in an unnecessary decoration. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Maybe one of the issues we are going to do - they say you can take a horse to the river, but you can’t for it to drink. The hon member is asking a question whether indeed we deal with issues of underperformance or any recommendation. I am saying, you should read the records that we circulate in the state, you will find that we do. Secondly, you will understand that, the separation of functions dictate that somebody else should evaluate you at the risk of you judging yourself from the egotistic point of view. So, we still believe the separation of these functions remains correct, but our commitment to continue improving.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, hon Maneli who is an ANC member to boot, has clearly identified the shortcomings that are revealed within departments in her question, when an oversight committee scrutinises that department’s budget. Now, you’ve spoken about the diagnostic report that was commissioned. You’ve spoken about plans produced. You realise that there are shortcomings in the departments. What does the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation do to ensure that, the shortcomings within the department are brought to the attention of the department firstly? Can you give us a one example of a direct intervention by Department of Planning, Monitoring and
Evaluation that have helped the department improve accountability and their performance? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you hon Singh. As I am talking to you now, we’ve got a special session in the area of infrastructure to improve systems alignment, and to make sure that project preparation capabilities are improved. As we speak now, one of the challenges in infrastructure is the inequitable distribution of capabilities in preparation for projects.
As we speak to you now, a number of projects that have passed the test are mainly in the metro municipalities and the national level because of the equitable distribution of that. Those are some of the examples of our interventions. I’ve already said that, we have circulated documents. We actually do half yearly assessment. With that half yearly assessment, we actually analyse performance and under performances, and follow that with what we call remedial actions. Thank you hon Singh.
Question 495:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chair, and thank you Dr Gondwe for asking the
question. Lifestyle audit process, commenced on 1 April 2022. The department will circulate on 31 October 2022 letters, the templates to the national and provincial departments, to provide further progress regarding conducting and investigating lifestyle audits.
Feedback to the Department of Public Service and Administration is expected to be on or before 1 January 2023, taking into account timeframes for financial disclosures. This is the first year of implementing lifestyle audits. Currently, 51% of national departments and 17% of provincial departments have already conducted lifestyle audits. I thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Over to you, Dr Gondwe. Yes, hon Macpherson.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, we did notice the Table that Dr Schreiber will take a follow-up question on behalf of Dr Gondwe. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Oh yes, I’m sorry, it’s here. Over to you, Dr Schreiber.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you, Chair. Chair, I just first need to slag if the Deputy Minister is not aware about cadre deployment, she could ask her colleague sitting next to her, Dr Dlamini-Zuma ... [Interjections.] ... attended on 11 May 2020. Chair, on this question of lifestyle audits, and specifically when it comes to Cabinets, the President in his first state of the nation address debate in 2018, promised that, lifestyle audits will be conducted also for Ministers and Cabinet Members, with much fun-fare, and yet, here we are over four years later, and now we hear about 2023.
After nearly a full term in office, not one Cabinet Member in this government has been subjected to a lifestyle audit.
Instead of new dawn, we’ve got new dololo [nothing.] But perhaps this is all because the President himself doesn’t actually want to undergo a lifestyle audit. After all, such an audit may uncover millions of dollar stashed in the furniture at Phala Phala. There is one government in this country that immediately implemented lifestyle audits upon assuming office, a government that says what it means, and does what it says, that government is the Western Cape government, led by the DA Premier, Alan Winde.
Not a single other province has conducted a single lifestyle audit on a single Cabinet Member, but the Western Cape has finalised its audits over three years ago. Hon Deputy Minister, given that the DA-led Western Cape has succeeded in conducting lifestyle audits when the ANC-run national government and all ANC-run eight provinces failed, does this confirm that the DA runs more cleaner and effective governments than the ANC ever could? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson. I’m not sure, why hon Dr Schreiber is actually persisting on engaging on cadre deployment when we are now on lifestyle audit. I guess that, whatever I might have said to you earlier on, must be very painful. But in terms of lifestyle audits, you’re actually saying that we’ve done nothing, regardless of what I did indicate that the process has started in April 2022.
We have already started, and I have indicated that nationally, it’s 51%, and for the provinces, it’s 17%. This is what I said earlier. Now, you want me to repeat it, and somehow, to some extent, you want to actually say, it’s only the Western Cape that is only doing it. Are you a government within a government that is actually running independently? The Western
Cape is supposed to be getting cues from the national government.
We are happy that the Western Cape is responsive, equally so, with other provinces and departments, in terms of what is required, they are really doing lifestyle audits. Thank you, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We proceed to Mme Kibi. It says here T B Kibi, or did they change it?
Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you very much, House Chair. I will take this follow-up question on behalf of Mr James Tyotyo. Hon Deputy Minister, the take up of lifestyle audits across the country without any provincial exception, can only be described as extremely poor. Whilst appreciating the complexities of conducting such audits, what are the underlying reasons for this, and what is going to be done about it? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. I’m sorry, they gave me an outdated list. The new one is having Mr James Tyotyo’s name, you are right. So, I’ll just put this one afar. Proceed, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, hon House Chairperson, and thank you hon Mgweba for the question. Reasons that hamper the initial implementation of lifestyle audits are as follows: The ethics officers are designated in terms of Public Service regulations, and not appointed. As such, some departments rotate them on an annual basis, with the movement destabilising these offices. The Forum of the South African Directors–General, FOSAD, that is sponsored, is actually looking into the matter.
Lifestyle reviews entail the verification of information submitted via e-disclosure systems, and identifying any unexplained wealth, detected in the process. When anomalies are detected, referrals are made for investigation. The legality of lifestyle audits where questioned, to the extent that implementation thereof was delayed, especially with the confusion around the constitution of lifestyle audits versus the requirements of the Protection of Personal Information Act.
This legal position was clarified and further, awareness sessions were conducted with ethics officers and provinces. Public Service Regulation 22, provides for lifestyle audits to be legally conducted as part of the department’s risk
management process. There is no absolute rights to the protection of personal information, and no absolute ban on processing personal information because, in terms of section 36(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, it makes clear reference due, limitations to rights.
The Protection of Personal Information Act provides that public body is exempted from conditions for the lawful processing of personal information where strict compliance is slightly ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.] Thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, have you engaged with SA Revenue Service, SARS, in the process of conducting these lifestyle audits, to ascertain that people are living within their means? In cases where it is found out that, people’s lifestyle exceeds their earning capacity, what steps will be taken to ensure that, those who finance their lifestyles through corrupt means are prosecuted? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you very much. I have actually indicated that, where there is unexplained wealth, referrals are made and
investigations are actually conducted, and those investigations will include every public institution that we may possibly utilise, including SARS. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. May I with your permission leave my cell phone audio off? Thank you. Deputy Minister, rising from your response, the ACDP shares with you that, the lifestyle audits were introduced in April 2021, by 4 May 2022 were prepared for the corruption. Then Public Service recommend those various departments that, they should have complied. Obviously, there is still a long way to go.
I wanted to ask you about this issue that, was there investigation conducted and whether they will be in co- operation with SARS? You have already responded to that, and I appreciate that. But one of the issues I would like you to touch on is, one of the problems that the public servants violate the Public Servants Act by conducting business with the state, often with gross meditated prices, or conduct remunerated work without the requisite of the organisation ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.] Will this be investigated?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, hon House Chairperson. It wasn’t really easy to hear hon Swart, but what I think I heard is that, he wants to know, what will actually follow after the investigations?
Primarily, what needs to happen is, after the investigations, then criminal charges will be laid or disciplinary processes will take place within the departments. So, there will be due processes. That is what will happen, in a nutshell, hon Swart, in order for us to complete the process. I thank you.
Question 484:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you House Chair and thank you to hon Mkhaliphi. The answer is no, I have not been informed of such investigations at Umzwabantu Local Municipality in Kwa-Zulu Natal, but I have sent an enquiry to the province after receiving the question so I will be following up with them. I have not received a response as yet. Thank you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you Chair. Minister, that is not true, I will also unpack it for you. The situation Umuziwabantu Local Municipality was sent to your office via e-mail to your PA, personal assistant, chief of staff and admin and the date is 17 June 2022.
It is not possible that all these people did not forward it to you. One forensic investigation advised council to suspend MM, municipal manager and other managers but ANC councillors protected corruption. This was sent to your office and I am so surprised that you are publicly saying you did not receive it because it was sent on the above date.
I wanted to know if your office was informed about “ABC” councillor who resides outside the jurisdiction of Umuziwabantu Local Municipality because this person by the name of Ms Nonhlanhla Luthuli is planted by the Umuziwabantu municipal manager, Mr Gumede.
So I just wanted to know, what are you going to do to protect the Umuziwabantu community against this illegal action by the “ABC” councillors?
Secondly, could you kindly ask your staff members because I want to know why you did not reply to the email that was sent to you in June because the corruption that is taking place there Minister you also know very well that people die when they fight corruption in municipalities. You are the last resort as the Minister to intervene on such matters. Could you kindly respond faithfully this time Minister?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhaliphi, before the Minister responds, you are aware that you asked a question that is not a follow-up to the initial question which is in the rules and it directly says that you must ask a question aligned to the initial question. Hon Minister, please respond.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No Chair, I specifically asked a question that is a follow-up to the original question which is about Umuziwabantu. Stop protecting Ministers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are correct but the office and the staff are not relevant here. Hon Minister proceed.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you House Chair. First off all I would just like to object to the insinuation. If the hon Mkhaliphi has
... [Interjection.] ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, you are correct, I am the future Minister of your portfolio. Correct MaDlamini!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhaliphi, you don’t do that. You are out of order hon Mkhaliphi. You cannot respond while the Minister is responding.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Please send me the e-mail and the PA to whom it was sent. I have not received that information. Thank you.
Sesotho:
Mof D R DIREKO: Ere ke o lebohe motsamaisi wa dipuisano. Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, moo bobodu bo leng teng bo tshwanelwa ho tlalehwa ho ba molao eseng bo tlo tlalehwa ka mona jwalo ka ha ekare Letona ke karolo ya teng.
Mme Letona, re ya utlwa hore motsotsong wa hona jwale, ha o tsebe hore ho na le diphuputso tseo di ntseng di etswa masepaleng ona, jwale ke ne ke botsa hore na ho ka nka nako e kae hore o re fumanele hore na diphuphutso tseo ntseng di etsuwa di qadile neng mme di se di le hokae motsotsong wa jwale? Ke a leboha.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Did you get the interpretation hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: No, this thing does not work.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): But, are you okay with the question?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you try again, please?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I got the last part about the time frame.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is the question.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Oh, okay. Well, I could say a week. Yes, let me give them just this week and then next week I will ensure that they will have responded.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you Chair. It is a fact that a forensic investigation was done at the Matlosana Municipality
in 2016 by Open Waters Forensic Investigations. It was already reported to the provincial Exco, executive committee, in 2016 for findings of over R1,8 billion irregular expenditure of tax payers’ money.
The FF Plus applied for a PAIA, Promotion of Access to Information Act, application to the North West province for the report and was refused. In light of this, the forensic report should be reported to the Minister. Would she then explain why there was no action taken due to information of fraud and corruption being highlighted in this report and would she make the report available to myself? Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, we are talking about Umuziwabantu and not Matlosana. Thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much hon Chair. Thank you to the Minister for assurance that she is taking up this matter. Also, thank you to hon Mkhaliphi for bringing to the attention of Parliament the corruption in this municipality which is also called is very serious. Will the Minister advice Al Jama-ah and the EFF of her findings and the action she has taken after getting a response?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I will send the answer to Parliament. Thank you.
Question 466:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I
thank you, House Chairperson. Introduction of the guide to managing discipline in the public service was adopted in April 2021. Accounting officers are - in terms of the Public Service Act of 1994 - responsible to ensure effective and
appropriate disciplinary action against employees found guilty of financial misconduct. The challenge is being responded to in two ways. One, ensuring fully implementation of legislative requirement to disciplinary action. And two, the provision of technical support by the Department of Public Service and Administration through the Public Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms M M NTULI: Thank you, House Chair and thank you Deputy Minister for your response. But Chair, furthermore, I would like to ask a follow up question. Surely, a period of three years lapsing before an employee who has been found guilty of financial misconduct can apply for a post in government is far too short. This is having ... [Inaudible.] ... given a number
of cases that the Public Service Commission has reported ... [Inaudible.] ... a year and does not serve as a deterrent.
What informs such a minimalist approach? Secondly, is the Public Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit mandatory in case of financial misconduct assisting? If not, why not? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are aware that you have asked more than one question, prerogative of the Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson, and thank you, hon Luthuli for the question. In terms of the South African law, the believe is that any person can be rehabilitated and reintegrated into society once they have served their sentence. As such, a period of three years is deemed appropriate to prohibit a person who was found guilty of financial misconduct to be reappointed to the public service. However, this does not mean that a person will necessarily be reappointed to the position that poses high risk such as the one in finance environment.
To address such risk, in 2020, the Department of Public Service and Administration revised Gazette 83 form to the
extent that the application form for this position would actually manage to give information in terms of the transgressions that have happened in the past. It is since then a requirement that applicants disclose all past misconducts. This information is considered during the appointment process. If it is not disclosed, the person should be dismissed. With the assistance of PA-EID-TAU or what we call Public Administration Ethics Integrity Disciplinary Technical Assistant Unit, cases of financial misconduct are found not to be mandatory, as it is not prescribed as a mandate of the unit in terms of section 15 of the Public Administration Act of 2014. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you very much, Chair. this question obviously relates to financial misconduct and one of the key ways in which that can be addressed – in addition to what the Deputy Minister has highlighted – is of course the lifestyle audit, to see how all this fits together. So given some of the statistics we have seen around disciplinary cases not being finalised, only 28% of cases in provincial departments have been finalised this year, and given the financial misconduct of a R100 million that this has caused South Africans, I think we need absolute clarity on this question of addressing financial misconduct and specifically on lifestyle audit. So,
I would like to know has the Deputy Minister or any other current Cabinet member personally undergone a lifestyle audit? Yes, or No? Thanks.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson and Dr Schreiber for the question. Basically, this question has got to do with financial misconduct and I see that you are going back to the previous question in terms of the lifestyle audit. It’s very interesting and indeed it is something that you need to develop interest in, because we are actually really serious about fighting corruption. And this is why earlier I said to you that the process only started in April 2022. So, we are busy with the process and for now what you are expressing ... you are interested in understanding as to whether the executive will also undergo lifestyle audit. Yes, that is in the pipeline. It will happen. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Motsepe ... Order! [Interjections.] ... There shall be order in the House. Hon Motsepe ...
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Deputy Minister, departments are reported to have irregular and
wasteful expenditure every single financial year. And, quite a number of officials do conduct business with the state, illicitly or explicitly. What steps have you undertaken to ensure that you improve the skills capacity of public officials to manage public finance better and being the stumbling blocks towards ensuring that no public servant conduct business with the state? And Deputy Minister, don’t be irritated, please answer the questions. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you for the question, hon member. Basically, what you are asking is that you want to find out as to whether ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The mic closer, please.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: We
are actually taking the whole issue of financial misconduct very serious. Measures are put in place to ensure that we deal with matters of this nature in a very effective and efficient manner. And hon member wants to know how do we then train public servants in order for them to know how to handle finances. Yes, we do that and you would understand that finances normally be under the Chief Financial Officers who
put proper financial control measures. But at the same time, we do continue with ongoing training within public service depending on the competencies of every public servant, including issues of finances, which are matters that are also dealt with by the National School of Government.
But what you need to also note is that as a country, we have a good legislative framework that assist us to know how to deal with finances. We have Public Finance and Management Act that clearly articulate how the finances of this country must be handles. What is important is to enforce compliance measures to be sure that the finances of the country are utilised properly in a way that monies of this country will continue to develop and advance this country. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. What are
... [Inaudible.] ... measures of government monitoring this department in order to root out corruption? What meaningful role could the Public Service Commission play, and what are the turnaround times for these cases? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, House Chairperson, and thank you, hon Sithole. The
Public Service Commission continues with its role of monitoring across the board in terms of what is happening in government, including issues of financial management and misconduct. The Public Service Commission would therefore rightfully ... [Inaudible.] ... that would help to guide processes within government. Indicate as to where we need to focus attention on and we continue to try and respond to whatever reports are submitted by the commission. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 467:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, House Chair and thanks to hon Msimango for the question. The interventions are implemented, are being considered by the department to ensure the municipalities will effectively utilise the grants are: in line with the Division of Revenue Act, propose various financial disciplinary measures to ensure that grants are effectively utilised. Transfers are withheld, should expenditure and implementation progress not be substantial to warrant a further transfer. Transfers are only paid when progress has been made on the previous transfers through the support and monitoring given by the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, MISA. Technical personnel on an average
expenditure of 90% municipal infrastructure allocated has been maintained. So MISA supports, through the technical support in the whole value chain of needs as well as support where projects are checked for quality prior to the authorisation of payments. This cost reimbursement model being implemented in
18 municipalities in 2022 and 2023, but in the previous case, MISA has assisted 25 municipalities that were underperforming, who are now performing very well. Unfortunately, MISA is a very small unit. If it had more engineers, it would assist even more municipalities, but with the engineers and the planners that it has, it is assisting municipalities because we do know that the communities suffer if the MIG is withheld because the infrastructure is not for the municipalities, it’s for the communities.
isiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ngqongqoshe usulahlekelwe yi- mic. Ikudenyana kunawe.
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Ngiyaxolisa, kodwa bangizwile ngabe bakhalazile. Ngakho ke, ngizosondela.
English:
House Chair and then ... yes, that’s the answer. Thank you.
Mr X N MSIMANGO: Thank you very much, hon House Chair and thank you again, hon Minister for a detailed response. A follow-up question will be: Could the conversion of a portion of municipal allocation in terms of the Division of Revenue Act from direct to indirect grant be a solution to protecting capital projects and what are the risks in applying such a conversion? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I agree that the conversion could be a solution to this problem. The risks could be that, for instance, if the transferring officer, which becomes the accounting officer during the conversion takes over the contract, with the contract irregularities, because if you are taking over a contract that is already existing, you could be taking over the irregularities that happened before. And this could cause delays and maybe cause project overruns, but I can’t say these are risks that are there for every project. I think every project will have to be looked at in its own merit. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you very much, Chair, my question relates to the abusive of conditional grants by municipalities. What
action will the Minister take in instances like the Rustenburg Local Municipality, where billions in conditional grants were spent to set up a Bus-Rapid Transit system, without a Bus- Rapid Transit system actually being produced?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Obviously, where something like that happens, between Treasury and ourselves, we will have to take action. As I said earlier, where the wrong has been found then we have to act.
Thank you.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Thank you, Chairperson, given the commitment made by the President to allow independent power producers to provide electricity and that many municipalities generate revenue from the sale of electricity to residents. What plans does the government have for municipalities to become self- sufficient whilst providing affordable services to its local residents? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you, as-far-as I know, the Department of Energy does allow municipalities to generate at least 100 megawatts without necessarily going through all those processes. So, it is up to the municipalities to take on that offer. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Die laaste een om ’n vraag te vra is agb lid Van Staden.
Mnr P A VAN STADEN: Baie dankie, Huisvoorsitter.
English:
Hon Minister, would you agree that one of the reasons for understanding is a fact that municipalities do not have the necessary qualified staff to implement projects successfully for the benefit of communities, but rather cadres that have been employed to the detriment of local communities? Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Chair. First of all, let me just say that when we implemented the wall to wall municipality, we made a wrong assumption that every municipality is able to generate its revenue, based on the previous apartheid municipalities that were serving white people who were able to pay. So, a lot of municipalities are correct, don’t have staff that is professional like engineers and planners not because of any reason but because they are serving indigent communities that are not able to pay and they
are not able to collect revenue. So, the answer is that the division of revenue the funding model must change. Thank you.
Question 468:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you Chair and hon Hlongo. The Women Economic Assembly will soon be with us. However, before I get to that, the department’s effort towards accelerated initiatives ... [Inaudible.] ... women’s unequal economic and social position. The following milestones have been achieved: The department has in August to September 2021, implemented radio talk shows. The weekly schedule for the radio talk shows which had been divided as follows: Week one, business registration; week two, Sars compliance; week three, SAPS compliance; week four, local content; week five, youth policy; week six, youth unemployment; week seven, Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, with disabilities; and last, week number eight, co-operatives with disabilities.
The envisaged outcome of these interventions is to increase participation of women-owned business in the public procurement space as well as in the general economy. When the Women Economy Assembly, WECONA, was launched by the President on 06 October 2021. A multistakeholder pledged to activate the
public private sector value chain, particularly, the commitment and actions in terms of the six industries, that is: energy, agriculture, agro-processing, textiles, automotive, steel and tourism.
The department is in collaboration with the Department of Trade and Industry and the National Treasury are working on the establishment of women empowerment fund. Let me hasten to say that in the rural areas and in the townships the best collection and sustenance of management has been a women’s ... [Inaudible.] ... through societies. The department supports the process of developing the National Treasury’s draft policy paper on financial inclusion to the mainstream economy of the youth and persons with disabilities in the economy.
In relation to the sanitary dignity programme, the department in collaboration with the Department of Small Business Development are currently implementing a project plan on putting in place the best possible approach for women-owned businesses to take up manufacturing opportunities within the sanitary dignity programme value chain. To this end, the National Task Team through a National Task Team business case is being developed and exploring opportunities of establishing
women-owned and managed small-scale manufacturing hubs or factories across the provinces ... [Time expired.]
Ms A S HLONGO: Thank you Minister for the response. Is there evidence that across the sectors of our economy we are actually witnessing greater inclusion of women? And if so, which sectors reflects this? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Well, women are ... [Inaudible.] ... into doing what they have been capable through the ages even during the hard and difficult times of the struggle to maintain families. What we need is the value that they put in that it be appreciated and be rewarded, but also to empower them by not making it difficult to access finance and financial inclusion. We also continue to look at how we could support the Department of Small Business Development trade on SheTrades. Taking advantage of the African Continental Free Trade Agreement, we have signed memorandum of understanding, MOUs, with several departments including agriculture and ... [Inaudible.] ...
We also think that they need more land, post settlement and post enterprise ... [Inaudible.] ... and co-operatives
development, skills development, market access and procurement. To this end the internationally undertaking of series of interventions that will ensure economic participation of women, youth and persons with disabilities in the mainstream will be taken into consideration. Very soon the hon members will be receiving invitations to attend the WECONA
2 of the women. We are doing this in partnership with the
District Development Model, DDM. [Time expired.]
Mr S NGCOBO: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, your department’s track record shows that you have failed to prioritise the development of important pieces of legislation. You have failed to fast track the development of the Disability Rights Bill and you have failed to prioritise the development of the Wage Bill which is aimed at empowering women. Even your own party, Minister, does not take women empowerment seriously which explains why its highest leadership structure is always dominated by men. My question to you, Minister, is: When will your department finalise the development of the Wage Bill? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Well, the failure of that which you are referring to is of the failure of men and some women in South
Africa. As I started, I said we are facing the second pandemic of women being slaughtered on daily basis, not by themselves but by the people who should be loving them. So, when we move further, the economy in this country has been driven by men and as women try to push in they are facing enormous challenges. This is not a departmental thing it is a matter that we should put shoulders to the wheel as a community and as a country to open doors for women to participate in the economy of this country. That is how we will deal with unemployment. That is how we will give space to disabled people and our youth.
Ms N P SONTI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, most of the women who have benefited from affirmative action and Black Economic Empowerment, BEE, transaction in the country since 1994, are white women. They benefit because they have a long established link to white-owned businesses. Have you considered tightening these policies to ensure that government support specifically black women? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: The answer to that is, yes, if we were to stop working in silos, that we start with the National Development Plan that links to the District Development Model,
DDMs, and then Government Securities Fund, GSFs, and take women serious not only as those who give birth to our children but give equal value for equal participation in the economy, you would see this country roaring once again in the economy. So, there is no failure of a project that was started by women supported and they are not putting their best. You empower a woman you empower the nation.
Mr N SINGH: It’s going to be me again, hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you. Load shedding is still a problem. Hon Minister, you see, when we talk about women empowerment I agree that it is not only white women that have benefited but there are number of black women that benefit. However, just like with Black Economic Empowerment, BEE, we must not allow just a few women to benefit from preferential procurement, etc.
Now, I would like to know whether the concept of self-help and self-reliance exist within the philosophy and policies of your department because even at the most rural levels, if you give women certain opportunities, basic opportunities like sewing
uniforms; planting vegetables and selling them at market they will progress to be big entrepreneurs one day. Does the philosophy of self-help and self-reliance exist within your office, so that we give a hand up and not a hand down? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, Chair. The spirit of resilience and self-reliance is what brought us men and women in this Parliament ... [Inaudible.] ... women. You strike a woman, you strike a rock. That is why I said that you empower a woman, you empower the nation.
So, if we indeed go out and support projects that women are championing and not continue with the financial exclusion of women, we will go a long way. So, I really agree with you when you say we need to empower more women, particularly, with the SheTrades slogan that has been started by the Department of Small Business Development in our country. Thank you.
Question 488:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank hon House Chair and thanks to hon Brink for the question. The answer is no; I’ve not assessed the validity of
assigning any statutory power and of function to members of the provincial executive councils or municipal councils in terms of Section 99 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1990. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you House Chairperson, the reason for putting this question is, particularly that the Western Cape provincial government and the City of Cape Town have undertaken a set of remarkable initiatives to fill the policing gab in that part of the country, including the deployment of law enforcement officers. Using their own budgets in places like Delft and Gugulethu and Bonteheuwel. And this has already pushed the crime stats in those areas, down. So, given that Cape Town and the Western Cape clearly have the capacity to do for communities, what the South Africans Police Service at national level, can’t. Will the Minister support the assignment of the policing functions, as requested by the Mayor of Cape Town and the Premier of the Western Cape to the provincial and local government? Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Angeke ngisho. Angeke ngisho.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ngqongqoshe ungabaphenduli ubayeke banje. Ungabaphenduli laba.
English:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Hon Brink for a starter we’ve received no such request. Secondly, it is the responsibility of the province to do what it can, to look after the people in the province. So, it’s doing what it should be doing. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: It’s weak, it’s weak Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Brink, you don’t do that, you don’t do, you are out of order hon Brink. Hon
Xaba-Ntshaba.
Ms P P XABA-NTSHABA: Thank you House Chairperson, greetings to the hon Minister and the House at large. Hon House Chair, Minister should we not be considering ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon members ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nkz M G Borotho): MamuXaba-Ntshaba, awume kancane. Ungqongqoshe uphakathi kweNdlu futhi, umama ufuna ukubuza umbuzo nibanga umsindo, sizomuzwa kanjani. Qala ekuqaleni mamuMkhize bebabanga umsindo lapha akakuzwanga.
Usesekhona? Yebo.
[Interjections.]
IsiNdebele:
Jamani! Eyi!
Ms P P XABA-NTSHABA: ... House Chairperson thank you, hon Minister should we not be considering and strengthening the constitutional principle of co-operative governance as opposed to seeking powers of assignment or is the member not dreaming of desires of provincial and local devolution of powers for a particular province? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Pretty ...
IsiZulu:
Injalo, injalo.
English:
I think what hon Brink must do first is to co-operate with the District Development Model, DDM, before wanting powers for themselves. Thank you. There will be no secession, there will no province that will become a country. We will all be one unitary country ... [Interjection.]
Mr C BRINK: Useless, useless, you run a useless department, a useless department.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Information and communications technology, ICT, I have warned hon Brink. Hon Brink repeatedly switch on the mic ... order, order hon members! ICT, please assist me and remove hon Brink from the platform. Proceed hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: ... yah, just to assure the members, it’s not going to happen. We are one country with three spheres and we will remain like that. There will no secession. Thank you [Interjection.] it doesn’t matter we have one country, no matter how much you wish... [Interjection.] [Inaudible.] ... the outcome of apartheid ... [Inaudible.] Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Schreiber, hon Schreiber no, no we don’t do that. It’s a warning, you do that again, I will throw you out. Hon Mkhaliphi.
Mr K CEZA: I will take it on behalf of hon Mkhaliphi House Chairperson, House Chairperson, thank you very much. The DA is asking the question because they have aspiration of federalising the Western Cape Province. In principle, they are no different from their right wing counterparts, eating for secession of the Western Cape Province. The real question Minister, is whether or not South Africa should reconsider the viability of provinces at the moment? Has your department based on assessment of service delivery challenges not formed an opinion about the need to abolish provinces, sorry, in order to empower the local sphere of government to deliver services to our people without much ... [Inaudible.]? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon House Chairperson, what we are doing now, as I said earlier, we are doing a 21-year review of local government. We need inputs from all of you. Make your input. Thank you.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Thank you, House Chairperson, what have been the challenges surrounding the delay of councils not being assigned these powers as yet, and what is the department doing in ensuring that they are closer to being deemed as viable?
Thank you House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, the question is; have I assessed the possibility of assigning powers? I have not. So, I don’t know what answer the hon member wants, because we have not assess that viability and we have not even received any request to that effect. Thank you.
Question 481:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chairperson, thank you. Yes, the department has developed an efficient system for monitoring progress on enforcing accountability and of compliance with the reporting on implementation on the National Strategic Plan, NSP.
Sepedi:
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M G Boroto): E iie fase gannyane, mma.
TONA KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE: BASADI, BASWA LE BATHO BAO
BAO BA SA ITEKANELAGO: Ke e iie fase gannyane?
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M G Boroto): Ee.
TONA KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE: BASADI, BASWA LE BATHO BAO BAO BA SA ITEKANELAGO: E godimo? Ke iie...
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M G Boroto): Fase. Ee.
English:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: This includes assessment of reports submitted by the Department of Social Development and the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure.
In that 2021-22 financial year, both departments reported that
12 buildings: Six in Gauteng in the Western Cape, renovated by the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure, were handed to the Department of Social Development to be used as interim housing measures.
In partnership with the Saartjie Bartman Centre for Women and Children, the Department of Social Development, is finalising
the establishment of Khuseleka One Stop Centre model in the Western Cape. The sheltering plays the fundamental mitigating role in responding to and addressing the gender violence.
The two-year reflecting report on the implementation on the NSP is in progress. The report will provide in depth information on the progress and all that we need, but we still have a long way to go. We still have a lot of work to do.
The response of the Gender-based Violence and Femicide, GBVF, has a strong focus on tackling structural drivers of the GBVF.
The report will also detail progress in terms of the five pillars on economic empowerment of victims and survivors of the GBVF.
While we focus on response, care and support turning to GBVF type is prevention and rebuilding on social fabric is critical. In order to do so we have to develop a comprehensive National Gender-based Violence Prevention Strategy for us to advance towards evidence-based efforts. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Ms N P SONTI: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, the statistics of rape as reported by the Police is alarming more so considering the fact that many of the rapes go unreported.
Most of the women who are raped in their homes and by their relatives have nowhere else to go and they are vulnerable because of the socioeconomic conditions. We have been highlighting the need for shelters since we came to Parliament, eight years ago.
Why has your department not seen the need to ensure that at least in each and every community in the country, there are shelters for abused women? Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chairperson and Mama Sonti, I just want to reiterate that we are not a one department looking at the issue of GBVF. We work with other members of the Inter Ministerial Consultation, IMC and we share the accountability. There are those who are responsible for prevention and economic empowerment and so forth.
The closest to us has been the social development because when victims you know come, we need to make them want to live and become survivors and move on.
So, we are calling upon all stakeholders that this is our responsibility. We are also calling on Members of Parliament and all civil society organisations and our people that the best security is how we raise our children; how we do not look the other way when there is trouble next door.
When you hear mokgoii o hlabja [sound of an alarm] next door saying nthuieng hle [please help], if you do not respond, it means you are a collaborator.
Ms J S MANANISO: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, while understanding the role and financial contributions of social development in funding, civil society organisations providing sheltering services and for the GBV response fund, the state of safe homes and shelters have come under some sharp criticism through our oversight work.
What re the challenges in this regard and what has been done to resolve this? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We will never have enough money or resources, particularly when we deal with the pandemic that is self-made. We just need men with positive masculinity to come to the party and help us make South Africa of Mandela shine again.
Countries poorer than South Africa – we will make the difference we all desire.
Mr L MPHITHI: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, women are being raped every single day in South Africa. It seems that there continues to be an issue to access to shelters and safe houses across provinces and municipalities.
Noting the utterances of Minister Cele, who stated that women are lucky to be raped just once: What type of interventions has your department used to work with other departments through a transversal approach to ensure that women of this country have full confidence that they are able to escape their abuser and find safe houses or shelters when they are required? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon member, women are victims at the time they are victimised. From there our responsibility as a society is to as they survive put mechanisms in place to make them better survivors.
We are happy to share with you that private sector also come to party on providing shelter. It is not that much, but what is important is, we need to change our mind sets. For women are not raped by other species. In many cases they are people who are supposed to be their loved ones.
One day when I was having a debate at night as Minister of Police is a member of our IMC and he asked me a question that haunted me for a long time. He asked me if I was asking indeed that we should have a policeman standing next to the bedroom of each and every household which is not possible.
So please, South Africans, do not look the other way. Let us not leave any one behind. Let us work together.
The Bill for the National Council for GBVF will soon be coming to Parliament. I am sure it will find you ready. Make sure that once and for all, we cannot say we have turned the corner
as far as covid is concerned, but we are unable to deal with this. [Time expired.]
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Mam’uHlengwa.
Mr N SINGH: It is going to be me again. I have changed my surname to uMashasha.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Uzobhadala. Uzohlawula. Qhubeka!
English:
Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson. Ngizobhadala [I will pay.] Hon Minister, just following up on your last answer that women need to be better survivors.
Now how can women who have been raped become better survivors when they know that the perpetrators of this heinous deeds are roaming free, have not being arrested or that even when they go to the police station, there are no sufficient rape kits for them to be tested?
Now, it must concern you and in your IMC have you ever offered assistance from the budget of your department to the Police Department to obtain more rape kits because we understand in the Eastern Cape there is a great shortage to help these women know that the perpetrators of these heinous crimes are put behind bars through proper evidence?
Would you be able to work on that aspect, hon Minister? Thank you. [Time expired.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We have walked this painful journey. We have even taken this debate to all sectors of our community up to National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, back from Nedlac, to Cabinet. Now, from Cabinet we hope we will soon be bringing it in weeks’ time to Parliament. So, that we own this and that we mean business.
We need you hon Singh, and we need all of us to put a stop to this carnage.
Question 469:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation introduced
the practice of developing and implementing improvement plans with remedial actions. The challenges identified in each medium-term strategy framework by annual reporting cycle. The formats prescribed by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and used by the national government departments, produced by annual reports from the medium-term strategy framework and the National Development Plan explicitly traps the implementation of recommendations.
The practice of reporting progress is taking route with remedial actions reported in each biannual report. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has observed that the pattern of repeating the same recommendations across several reports in departments has decreased. In the past, some recommendations have to be repeated because there were no
... [Connection problems.] or remedial actions to address areas of weakness. This has substantively decreased and the implementation of remedial action has improved and shown movement around those areas where recommendations are made. Challenges arise with improvement plans that require funding and that must be included in the Annual Performance Plans, APPs of the department. Challenges in developing plans related to the recommendations of the annual reports arise because
there is a porting side which does not always align with the budgeting of the APP development side.
Consequently, not all recommendations can be certain in the current AAP nor can be budgeted for midyear only in subsequent year can department includes these in their budget bids and therefore their APPs. Where the recommendations do not require extra funding, those department implement and attract through the biannual report system. Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms T MGWEBA: Hon House Chair, I will take the follow up question on behalf of hon Malomane. Hon Minister, from the biannual results obtained in the implementation of government priorities in the medium-term strategy framework and the National Development Plan, NDP what scenario emerges assessing the capabilities of departments to implement these priorities and if there are capability challenges what is being done about the identified challenges? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, let me thank hon Malomane through hon Mgweba. A capable state has some required human capabilities, institutional capacity, service processes and technological platforms to deliver on the NDP through a social contract with people. The emerging scenario is that
South African state cannot be described as a fully capable state even partnerships established as social contracts are not optimised. An example who would be a partnership between the state and the NGOs and delivering social welfare services, the constitutional mandate of government. This partnership is underfunded as per the finding of the National Association of Welfare Organisations and Non-Governmental Organisations, Nawongo Court Judgements. However, challenges in implementing are not always related to capabilities of different departments. Some of the challenges are because of slow action. Five departments difficult as in collaborating across the departments and across spheres of government and the part dependency that result from these. For example, where legislation is needed to unlock the implementation it is not the capability that is a problem but a slow pace of developing the very legislation. The Executive arm of the state, Cabinet, for instance odes not exert influence on the legislature to speedily process draft legislation because of the independence of the arms of the state. Thank you, hon member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): This time you were just too low. Just sit and get closer to the microphone. We could not hear you very well.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon House Chair, Minister, you will agree with me that your improvement plans do not work at all. There are so many scandals of government and its ANC cronies who are being protected given all other plans. Imagine, 28 years in government and you still look for plans to improve departments. The CEO of Thembisa Hospital has still not been grilled in the fishy payments. Minister, why is it that you could not have protected Babita Deokaran who suggested a forensic order against 217 companies with your so-called improvement plans? Instead, Babita Deokaran died at the hands of merciless thugs. I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, maybe there is a story that somebody who has no eyes, got the eyes of a cat and when he was asked what he has seen, he saw rats. I hope your case is not the case of the eyes of a cat because progress report in South Africa with regard to dealing with corruption is there for you. People are in courts and the executives. We continue to reinforce the justice system by putting more money. The unfortunate story of the lady, Deokaran, is speaking about, is the story which is in the hands of the court now. I do not want to pronounce a lot of things about it. It is the most unfortunate story because there are laws in South Africa for protected disclosure and they improve. Yes,
we are committed if there are gaps but having said that, I would request you to remove the eyes of the cat so that you see everything and not just the rats.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!
Ms R N KOMANE: Hon House Chair, government’s priorities were meant to have been geared towards halving poverty by 2030 as per your purely NDP. It is clear that you will not attain that goal. In fact, the country has moved backwards since this Ramaphosa administration took over. Is monitoring and evaluation of government still guided by the so-called NDP? If so, have you revised any of those targets set in that document? What have been the main reasons for the failures of government to halve poverty and to eliminate inequalities?
Thank you, very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Komane, you asked straight questions but I will leave it to the Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, in the NDP goals there has been significant achievements in terms of socioeconomic indicators. Be they access to education, access
to ACT, access to housing, access to water and a number of those socioeconomic indicators. But, we agree with those who say we are slower. Our pace of implementing NDP is slow and 2030 is around the corner and that is why there is a number of interventions. When we adopted the seven interventions in 2019: a capable state, economic transformation, skills development, social wage, spatial planning, social cohesion, the better Africa and the better world, is an attempt to improve our pace in improving our performance on the NDP.
National Development Plan is a relevant plan because it has got particular goals with regard where should it be in terms of employment, in terms of investments, ratio to GDP and Gini Coefficient. Because it commits us to those goals and we have been able over years to put together medium-term strategy framework which on annual basis it is followed by the national annual strategic planning instruments. So, it remains relevant. You cannot be here, have a plan and then leave it midway. Thank you, very much.
Mr N SINGH: I think KwaZulu-Natal will take it, hon Chairperson again. Hon Minister, in your responses you said there is no action by some departments in showing these improvements. Now, you see, the buck stops with the head of
the Executive, the Minister of the department and not the department itself. Now, to what extent are these reports that you receive on the evaluation of the departments given to the President himself as the head of the Cabinet to consider when he is appointing his Ministers or when he is removing his Ministers? Are these reports placed in front of him? What I hear is quite stressing about the non-performance of some of the departments. Hon Minister, it is not the legislature that is found wanting in processing legislation. Many times we get it very late from the Executive and we have to meet certain timeframes that are set by the courts. So, I just wanted to ask to what extent is the President receiving those reports? [Time expired.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, I am suspicious that hon Singh has actually thrown all the IFP members into load shedding so that he is the only one who is asking questions.
IsiXhosa:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Andisayi kuphendula mna.
English:
Mr M N PAULSEN: Then House Chair ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON {Ms M G Boroto): No, no, you are not recognised hon Paulsen. Proceed Minister, your time is running.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Singh, if you read our biannual report, I have already said that it exposes underperformers and explain the underlying reasons for underperformance and propose remedial action. That report gets tabled before Cabinet twice a year. But I do want to make a point that one of the things that is going to help government do better is a seamlessness between Parliament and the Executive. One of the key theme, that is why we are introducing it in the integrated framework which look at co- ordinating all systems to ensure that Parliament and the Executive, in terms of performance, language use and the theory that is applied, we have got a common understanding of what is mutually expected between us. We are moving along that path and we will get there. Thank you, very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON {Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon members, may I allow the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to say something before we move on?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, I just want to clarify what hon Mkhaliphi said and what I said because the information I got at the point was that we were not aware but when hon Mkhaliphi insisted that we knew, I then went back to my office to check. This is the response, the question about uMuziwabantu Local Municipality and the answer that I got now is that we indeed received communication on the forensic investigation and we have responded by referring the matter to the KwaZulu-Natal province. So, I want to apologise for the earlier answer. This is the answer that I got after following up but I will ask for the report because what we got was not the report. It was just the information that there was forensic that was done. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON {Ms M G Boroto): I believe hon Mkhaliphi is still on the platform but you will know. Hon Paulsen and the Chief Whip of the Majority Party allow me to proceed. Time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed on Hansard.
The House adjourned at 18:03.
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