Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 23 Aug 2022
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 23 AUGUST 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch: Plenary
The Council met at 14:04.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ICT SYSTEM NOT FUNCTIONING 100%
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, good afternoon. Before we start with the sitting. I’ve been informed that there is a little bit of a challenge with the system, the Information and Communications Technology, ICT, system. So, as far as it’s possible, members are requested to operate the mics manually.
And to the speakers that will be at the podium, if, at all, there is a challenge, we will allow you to respond right from your where you will be seated. That is what we will be doing.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let me, before we proceed, make the following announcement:
The hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
Delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
For purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present.
Delegates, when they are speaking, must switch on their videos and they should also ensure that the microphones on the gadgets are muted and must always remain muted unless they are speaking.
All delegates in the chamber can connect to the virtual platform as well by inserting their cards to register on the system.
The delegates – I’ve already said that – in the chamber must use the floor microphones and all delegates may participate in this discussions through the chatroom.
The interpretation facility is supposed to be active. I’m saying supposed to because we have experienced problems the last times.
Permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and SA Local Government Association, SALGA, representatives on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on the gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the services.
Permanent delegates and members of the executive committee, exco, in the chamber should use the interpretation gadgets on the desk to access the interpretation facilities.
Hon delegates, in accordance to Council Rule 229(1) there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.
Before we proceed to the Questions, I would like to take the opportunity to welcome the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, hon Lamola, and the Minister of Police, hon Cele.
Further, I would just like to make the following remarks with regard to the Questions session: The time for reply by Ministers to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. And a member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking of a supplementary question is two minutes and for the reply is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.
That is the remarks that we wanted to make and we will now start with the Question on the Question Paper and that is to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services.
CLUSTER 1A PEACE AND SECURITY
Question 59:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the final report of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the allegations of state capture, corruption, fraud, in the public sector including organs of state, well known as the Zondo Commission, contain a number of recommendations which can broadly be classified as criminally related where it refers to investigations and prosecutions, administrative-related where they deal with capacity, practices and other steps to be taken. And legislative, where they propose the amendments of legislations or the establishment of certain entities in terms of the law.
I wish to bring to the hon Chairperson’s attention and hon members that government is hard at work in developing the implementation plan for submission by the President as per the court-determined deadline of 22 October 2022. This process is being coordinated by an Inter-Departmental Task Team established by the Presidency.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has established an internal task team to consider the reports of the Zondo Commission and its recommendations. All the recommendations have been analysed and fully set of those which fall under my mandate have been identified.
The roles of the entities falling under my mandate are set out below.
With regard to the criminal-related recommendations, the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, together with the Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigations, DPCI, established an integrated multidisciplinary task force to coordinate the response to such recommendations and findings. It includes senior representatives of the DPCI as well as the heads and additional representatives from the Asset Forfeiture Unit, AFU, the Investigative Directorate, ID, the National Prosecution Services, NPS, and the Specialized Commercial Crimes Unit, SCCU, within the NPA.
The task force’s focus is to ensure a coordinated response to the work to be undertaken, to look at resources and assist in expediting the investigations and the successful prosecution of the matters.
The Independent Directorate takes the lead in investigations and prosecuting the state capture matters.
In line with its mandate, the DPCI and Offices of Directors of Public Prosecutions are supporting the investigation and prosecutions of matters dealt with by the ID or are bolstering the capacity of the ID to expedite the investigations and prosecutions.
All the entities forming part of the task force are working in collaboration with each other. The task force is also driving coalition of dedicated resources in appropriate cases.
The AFU is also involved to ensure that the proceed of crime are seized.
The Special Investigating Unit, SIU, constituted a committee chaired by the Head of the SIU to consider all the Zondo Commission’s reports in the following order:
Identify matters that are highlighted by the reports and are covered by already issued proclamations and those that are not covered by issued proclamations, which require further investigations.
Identify matters where civil litigation for cancelation of contracts and recovery is underway and those matters where the SIU will institute civil litigation.
Holding officials, executives, directors to account based on evidence and findings.
Making referrals to the NPA where evidence point to criminal evidence.
Referrals of evidence to state institutions to disciplinary actions.
Collaborate with other law enforcement agencies on common matters.
The SIU is now part of the task force established by the NPA.
Blacklisting of companies and directors and referrals to other regulatory authorities.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development will play a key role in so far as the implementation of policy and legislative recommendations are concerned.
Highest Chairperson, I’m now responding to both Questions number two and three asked by hon Dodovu.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has the necessary resources to deliver on its mandate, but the National Prosecuting Authority and Special Investigation Unit do not have.
Although the NPA has made important progress and responding to state capture cases within its current budget allocation, it requires additional resources to respond in a full and effective way to the current and future workload stemming from the Zondo reports.
Enhancing the capacity and skills of the NPA to effectively prosecute corruption is a national priority.
The nature and extend of the alleged corruption described in the Zondo reports highlights the need for bold and innovative approaches to enhance the capacity and skills of the criminal justice entities including the NPA.
The level of sophistication and complexity of the crimes requires the same level of sophistry and complications from even within the NPA, meaning skills for skills.
In this regard, the NPA was allocated an additional R1,1 billion over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period to respond to these challenges. Sixty-eight percent of the allocation will be used to enhance the anticorruption capacity of the NPA through additional staffing in units such as the ID and the AFU.
In addition to more skills and capacity, we will be providing the required tools of trade needed to deliver on their important mandate.
Critical to the success of the strategy to address corruption is the appointment suitable senior counsels to support the prosecutions and high-level complex matters in terms of section 38 of the NPA Act.
There’s also been a steep increase in the need for expanded witness protection, security of staff members is also a
priority, including to appoint them in terms of the NPA Act itself.
Capacity and skills enhanced also require a collaborative approach with multiple partners in the private sector that can assist with sophisticated responses required for such complex crimes with required attention to be paid to the independency of the NPA and its prosecutorial decision-making powers. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Minister, your response is quite comprehensive and it is inspiring that you have put up all the necessary processes, systems and structures in place to respond to the recommendations of the Zondo Commission. This is highly, highly welcomed and we are satisfied that you are willing to confront this particular report in the way that will inspire confidence to the people of South Africa, and thank you for that.
But what stands out, hon Minister, is the fact that this approach will require collaboration and skills that are necessary and the collaboration with the private sector will be very much important.
How will you do this without really compromising the independence of those particular institutions that you mentioned in your response? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Dodovu,
as the government of the Republic we are committed to respond to the Zondo Commission’s recommendations and it is, in this regard, that we will ensure, even for the NPA, that whatever work and collaboration or partnerships they have to enter into or find themselves needing in terms of skills or resources, does not compromise the independency of the NPA. Because the independency of the NPA is sacrosanct, is the oxygen through which the NPA is able to breathe justice to the people of this country.
So, we have ensured that whatever processes that requires collaboration should be done through the National Treasury’s prescripts, it should be done within the required and within the required safeguards that will also ensure independency, and that safeguards includes the department, the National Treasury and also the NPA, in a manner that must comply with the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and all the relevant
prescripts including the National Prosecuting Authority Act. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, it is widely accepted that the NPA currently does not have the resources and you also mentioned that, financially and human to effectively deal with the matters resulting from the Zondo Commission.
It is also widely accepted that South Africans in general, and I’m sure all of us in this room, would like to see those guilty of state capture being dealt with effectively and speedily.
Will the Minister support the establishment of a chapter 9 integrity commission as proposed by accountability now, if it can assist in expediting these matters, and if not, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Chair, the NPA – as I’ve said – does have the resources, but the resources are not enough. The two are different, that they don’t have nothing at all, it’s not true. What I’ve said is that it’s not enough, the resources that they have. Hence they
will need collaboration, they will need to work with all of us including the National Treasury and the various role players in the public and in the private sector to ensure that they have the resources and also the skills required to prosecute these matters.
And with regard to the creation of a chapter 9 integrity commission institution is something that – as I’ve said – the Zondo Commission’s recommendations are being considered by the whole of government. And when the President reports to Parliament he will be able to report on some of these issues and I can state now that this integrity commission that is being proposed is not one of the consideration that we are looking into.
But we are looking into what then becomes a multidisciplinary structure that is able to conform with the United Nations Conventions on Corruption and the Constitutional Court judgment on the Glen Vista matter including the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry, so that they have sufficient safeguards in line with the Constitution and the laws of this country and ensure that the NPA is able to
execute its mandate without any fear, favour or any prejudice. Thank you.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Hon Minister, to date which cases have been referred to the NPA and will be taken to court for prosecution?
How many criminal cases have been opened this far? And which measures have been put in place to ensure that there are no delaying tactics used by those against whom findings have been made? Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, there are already matters before courts emanating from the commission including the SIU investigations. There’s a lot of them, which at a go now I may not be able to mention but the ones that comes to mind is the asbestos matter, the Astina one, and the other matters that are before our courts including the Bosasa matter.
So, there are those matters in front the criminal justice system that are already rolling, which shows the commitment of the law enforcement agencies, the DPCI and the National
Prosecuting Authority in ensuring that justice prevail and that there is accountability.
The issue of delaying tactics, as hon members are aware, once the matter before court it is now for the presiding officer to case manage the matter and ensure that the matter is finalized as expeditiously as possible. And most of these matters, it is in the interest of everyone, the victims and the accused parties, that the matter is expeditiously finalized. And I do believe that our judicial processes and the criminal justice system is well-placed to handle these matters in an expeditious manner. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, according to recent media reports the Chief Justice has cautioned that litigation could potentially delay the findings of the state capture commission report and its recommendations, which is a real concern considering the critical need to restore faith in the National Prosecuting Authority to prosecute corruption and the need to urgently address corruption.
What is the Minister’s view on this reality that litigation may be used to delay the commission’s recommendations?
And will the department do to ensure that despite the right of those implicated to legally challenge the findings that the recommendations are not delayed or never implemented? Thank you, hon Minister and the Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, no amount of litigation will delay the work of the law enforcement agencies.
The DPCI and the NPA had to gather evidence independently from the commission and that’s why you will remember that at some stage the President had to allow them in terms of the regulations of the commission to gather evidence and use that evidence in their own investigations.
And you will also remember that in some of the findings of the commissions the commission still refer some of the matters for investigation by the DPCI and for prosecution by the NPA.
So, any litigation on the findings of the commission, of review in our civil proceedings, does not impact on the work that the law enforcement agencies have already done in gathering evidence in investigations and in their decisions.
So, they will soldier and do the criminal league of the investigations and that of the prosecutions. We will have to handle and deal with any matter that emanate with regard to the review, we do believe that justice and the civil proceedings will be able to handle such civil proceedings but they will not in any way hinder the work of the DPCI and also of the NPA in prosecuting and dealing with any matter that emanates from the state capture’s commission of inquiry. Thank you.
Question 62:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy
Chairperson, the SA Board for Sheriffs, the Sheriffs Board, is the regulatory authority to investigate any complaints against a sheriff. The board may establish disciplinary committees or appoint an independent and impartial person, as and when necessary, who shall be vested the function relating to a charge of improper conduct assigned to the board.
If the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development or the Minister receive information that the sheriff acts illegally or unethical, the matter will be referred to the
board for it to be able to investigated and when necessary for appropriate action to be taken by the board against the sheriff.
The board shall - unless an admission of guilt fine has been determined and paid - enquire into a charge of improper conduct by a sheriff. When the board finds the sheriff guilty of misconduct, it may, for example, question or reprimand a sheriff, cancel the fidelity fund certificate or impose a fine.
If the board is of the view that a sanction of removal should be imposed, it will submit a recommendation to the Minister for the removal of the sheriff. The Minister may then remove the sheriff from office, or if the Minister is of the view that a removal is not an appropriate sanction, impose upon the sheriff such a penalty as the board may have imposed.
In terms of section 50 of the Sheriffs Act of 1986, the Minister may also suspend a sheriff from office at any time before the sheriff is charged with improper conduct or after he/she has been so charged. The Minister may at any time also cancel the suspension of a sheriff, but the cancellation shall
not prevent the sheriff from being charged with improper conduct in accordance with this chapter.
In practice, therefore, any complain against a sheriff will be reported to the SA Board for Sheriffs, which is an independent regulatory authority, which will approach the Minister if recommendation is made: To suspend; to remove; or to reinstate the sheriff concerned, as required by the Sheriffs Act.
Although section 52 of the Sheriffs Act of 1986 give the Minister certain powers to authorise any person to charge any sheriff with improper conduct, and, to inquire into the charge, make a finding and impose a penalty. This provision has not to date been used as the board performs this function.
In terms of section 58 of the Sheriffs Act of 1986, the Minister may, further in writing, direct the board to furnish him, within the period specified in the direction, with such information as the Minister may require in connection with the functions of the board of the financial state of affairs of the board or of the fund. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Hon Minister, a sheriff in the Free State, one Mr Mosekile, currently, has multiple criminal cases pending against him. I think your department is thoroughly aware of this case. I have made them aware as well.
The Sheriffs Board messed up his first suspension and now they refused to reinstate disciplinary steps against him, despite the fact that there are criminal investigations against him.
The public, whose property he misused and also stole, cannot claim from the Sheriffs Board. All the while, we sit with an unethical and possibly a criminal sheriff that seems to be untouchable.
My question is: Will you suspend this sheriff if the facts that I am giving you are true? And secondly, what will you do to ensure that there is an increasing accountability on the part of the Sheriffs Board for rogue sheriffs, so that we do not sit with a situation like this in the future? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy
Chairperson, there should be no holly cows amongst the
sheriffs. If there is any form misconduct, then the code of conduct must creep in. So, the hon member has asked a specific matter, which I have got no facts or information on.
I will have to look at it to give a reply as to whether we can suspend him or ensure that the board continues with disciplinary processes. Yes, it is something that I think the hon member has mentioned. We will have to look into the facts of this specific matter.
However, a form of a general rule is that any violation of the code of conduct must be meted with the processes that are encapsulated in the code of conduct for violations and suspensions, as I have mentioned, and all processes must unfold. Obviously, each case must be dealt with on its own merits and we will look into the one that he has mentioned.
Thank you.
Ms A D MALEKA: Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you for the responses. Hon Minister, what mechanism is the department using in order to communicate with the public on how to raise their grievances with the SA Board of Sheriffs? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon member,
this in an important question as we should keep in mind that sheriffs are sui generis as their statutory appointments. They generate their own income, appoint their own personnel, must open their own trust accounts and are not employees of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
For these very reasons, the department, on its website – www.justice.gov.za – under Frequently Asked Questions, also
created an index that deals specifically with questions about sheriffs, such as: Who is a sheriff; what does the sheriff do; who regulates the sheriff’s actions; and what do you do if you have a complaint against a sheriff.
It will link you to the website of the SA Board of Sheriffs - which is www.sheriffs.org.za – where the process to follow, by
an aggrieved person, will be explained and you will be able to print the forms that you have to complete in order to lodge a complaint or a grievance with the board against the sheriff.
This is also communicated to the public and communities during imbozos and other engagements with them. We agree that much
more should be done to make the public aware of the role of the sheriffs and the process to follow should they want to lodge a grievance against a sheriff.
It is also important that sheriffs form part of the roleplayers who participate in community engagements. The SA Board of Sheriffs, in its last annual report for the period of 2020-21, stated that there has been an increase of 103,9% with searches on their website, with the most viewed being:
How to locate a sheriff?
During the reporting period, the board also received 438 inquiries: Of which, 254 were formal complaints; and 251 of these complaints have been resolved. All disciplinary hearings were partly heard during the reporting period, with the same delay, due to Covid-19 restrictions.
Since 2017, a total of 10 criminal actions have been initiated by the SA Board of Sheriffs against sheriffs, one of which has resulted in criminal convictions and the rest are still pending. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chair, hon Minister, with reference to the Covid-19 relief for sheriffs, where the previous board approached the Minister to approve payment of relief funds, as an initiative to benefit all the members of the profession, to which were ceded in terms of section 16(h) of the Act to utilise funds of the SA Board of Sheriffs for these purposes.
I wish to ask: Whether any form of corruption and/or fraud existed in these payouts to the beneficiaries thereof? If the reply is yes: How did the board or you as the Minister intervene in these matters? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, not that I am aware of. It has not been reported to us or in any of our space. So, from where we sit, we were requested to allow them to provide a relief which was much needed for the profession that was not working at the time.
We do believe that the relief did play its role to relieve the sheriffs from financial constraints and difficulties that they were facing during that period. We also do believe that it helped to save the sheriffs’ profession. If there was any
corruption, it has not been reported and we are not aware at this stage. Thank you.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy Chair, Minister: Can the sheriff that has been suspended or expelled, due to being found guilty by the board, be able to appeal the sentence and be reinstated to operate again?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes,
indeed, the Sheriffs Act do provide processes, but once the decision has been taken by the board, that sheriff cannot operate and cannot be issued with a fidelity fund certificate to continue operating. That is aimed to protect the public. It is only when the person wants to reapply where issues of rehabilitation, fitness and proper will come into play. Once the sheriff board has taken a decision, that person must be removed from the roll of sheriffs and practicing sheriffs.
Thank you.
Question 60:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, Deputy Chairperson. The Constitution of South Africa guarantees all citizens a number of fundamental human
rights, including the right to have access to courts, which is enshrined in section 34 of the Constitution. This right is commonly referred to as the right to have access to justice.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development leads a number of ongoing projects to increase access to justice services in previously marginalised communities. This includes court infrastructure projects, which have seen, amongst others the construction of the first High Court of the Mpumalanga province. Additional court infrastructure projects have also been prioritised in a number of places such as Cape Town, Plettenberg Bay in the Western Cape, Booysens in Gauteng, Ugie
... Dimbaza in the Eastern Cape, Fraserburg in the Northern Cape and Welkom in the Free State.
The Office of the Family Advocate deals mainly with legal custody battles, disputes and cases of mediation and child abductions that plagues South Africa ... often results in children becoming victims. For decades, the Office of the Family Advocate has worked at creating offices ... access to justice for vulnerable children who cannot protect themselves, free of charge. The department has established an Office of the Family Advocate in every province, as well as satellite offices to enhance access to Masters’ Offices services. For
estates worth less than R125 000, the families of deceased ... can now access every magistrate’s court, of which at present there are more than 400 countrywide, to request assistance with the issuing of letters of authority and to wind up estates. The magistrates’ courts personnel would then communicate with the Masters’ Office personnel and communicate back to the families concerned. This therefore obviates the need for grieving families to travel long distances to any of the 15 Master’s Offices countrywide and can access such services at their nearest magistrate’s court.
Regional courts have greater jurisdiction in that they can hear civil matters where the claims are below R400 000. They hear more serious criminal matters, as well as divorce matters. If a claim is more than R400 000, it can only be heard in the High Court, unless the parties concerned ... to the monetary jurisdiction of either the district or the regional court.
The Magistrates’ Court Act of 1944 makes provision for the Minister of Justice to, by notice in the Government Gazette, create regional divisions, increase or decrease the limits of any regional division and appoint one or more places within
the regional divisions for the holding of a court to hear civil disputes in terms of section 29 of the Act.
In terms of section 29(1) and 29(1)(b) such civil matters include, among others claims for the delivery of transfer of property, actions for ejectment, actions arising out of credit agreements, other actions where the claim of value in disputes does not exceed the jurisdiction amount of the regional court, as well as divorces and any matter arising thereof.
I have subsequently, with effect from 1 December 2020, established a court for each regional division for the purpose of adjudicating civil disputes contemplated in section 29(1) and 29(1)(b) of the Act. The places so listed for the holding of court for the adjudication of civil disputes are set out in Government Gazette 43861, copies of which are available upon request.
The regional courts are vital to ensure access to justice. Enhancing access to justice means taking the courts closer to the people, which in turn minimises costs and inconvenience when matters are to be heard. By establishing these civil seats, we are making justice more accessible to the people.
Legal Aid SA services infrastructure comprises of 64 local offices, 64 satellite offices, six provincial offices and one national office, across the nine provinces. In addition, we concluded agency agreements for remote rural areas and co- operation agreements entered into with university law clinics to assist to increase access to justice in both criminal and civil work. We also have advice offices in rural areas, where we visit high volume access points, eg clinics, SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, offices and traditional structure offices to increase our access to justice.
The rationalisation of the magisterial districts project ... This project has been implemented in all nine provinces. It entails the reconfiguration and redetermination of costs, jurisdiction and boundaries in accordance with the Constitution. Prior to 1994, magisterial districts were determined in a manner that created a separate, inferior justice system and courts for people living in the defunct homelands, self-governing states and black townships. The old area demarcations compelled communities in these areas to travel long distances at huge costs to obtain legal redress and to access justice related services at courts in the
secluded areas. Through the rationalisation of the magisterial districts project, communities ... new inclusive magisterial districts are created in line with the new municipal boundaries determined by the Municipal Demarcation Board, which you now call the local sitting of the municipalities.
For example, through the rationalisation of magisterial districts project, the people residing in Diepsloot, who were previously compelled to travel to Pretoria Magistrate’s Court located in the City of Tshwane to access justice services, can now access justice services at the Randburg Magistrate’s Court located within the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality.
The rationalisation of the areas of jurisdiction of the divisions of the High Court, item 16 of the sixth schedule of the Constitution, provided that as soon as practically possible, after the new Constitution had taken effect, all courts, including their structure, composition, functioning and all relevant legislation, must be rationalised to establish a judicial system for the new 1996 Constitution.
The legacy of spatial injustice impairs access to courts for communities that reside in the areas that form part of the
defunct homelands and self-governing territories, as well as remote rural areas. Some communities are still forced to travel long distances at huge costs to obtain legal redress as a result of high costs, which still exercises jurisdiction over the defunct homeland system. For example, the people of Odi and Moretele are still compelled to travel long distances to access High Court services in Mahikeng, leaving the closest High Court in Pretoria. The people residing in the areas of Cathcart, East London, King William’s Town, Komga, Queenstown and ... [Inaudible.] ... are still compelled to travel long distances to access High Court services at Makhanda, leaving the closest High Court in Bhisho. Similarly, communities residing in the areas of Barkly East, Elliot, Indwe, Maclear and Ugie are compelled to travel long distances to access High Court services at Makhanda, leaving the closest High Court in Umtata.
In order to address this challenge, in June 2021 I appointed a commission on the rationalisation of areas under the jurisdiction ... judicial establish ... chaired by the retired Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke, to address some of the anomalies posed by pre-1994 spatial injustices.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): As you
conclude, hon Minister. It’s very important information but I’ve allowed you as far as I can.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed ...
Thank you. I’ve concluded, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you.
Members, it was very important information. That is why I allowed the Minister to go a little bit over the time. Hon Mthethwa, do you have a follow up ...
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Yes. Thank you, hon Minister, for your response to my question. I know you got to take me to town with your example. The response indicated that there are serious attempts ... made to address matters of access to justice for all. Minister, what do you think about involving constituency offices that are all over the country in disseminating this information that is very helpful to the general public?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much for the question. Indeed, constituency offices are
very important and we do believe that they can play a role in educating the public, in disseminating information and in providing relevant information to the public, for example with the newly rationalised magisterial courts. In certain communities they may still not be aware that they have to travel to another area for a particular service in this particular court. The constituency offices can help to guide and give information to the public.
The constituency offices could also enable the members of the public to participate in the rationalisation processes of the High Courts so that the people in Mabopane don’t have to travel to Mahikeng. They make their inputs, and when the final report of Justice Moseneke, as I’ve said ... we are able to readjust that jurisdiction so that people are able to just go to the High Court in Pretoria instead of going to Mahikeng.
So, these are all issues that I do believe the constituency offices, as part of our constitutional democracy, have a very, very important role as they are close to the people and they can play an educational role. Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Minister. Members, before the Minister or anyone proceeds, I am really putting a dispute to the Chief Whip. It’s unbearable the way ... it’s cold in this ... I’m really putting a dispute ... [Inaudible.] Sjoe [wow], I thought it would really be better by now but it’s really ... They can rather switch it off. [Inaudible.] Thank you. Members, I’m not funny but really, I can’t take it anymore. Now it’s off. Okay, I withdraw the dispute. Can we now go to the next follow up
... and we will request hon Hadebe of the IFP for his follow up ...
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, in terms of a recent written response by the Minister’s office in relation to practical steps taken to improve the capacity of courts to deal with civil matters, it was held that the department will try to ensure that all civil courts are capacitated with human capacity when the need arises and that dedicated civil clerks have already been introduced and implemented in big courts.
What mechanisms does the department currently have in place to monitor and evaluate whether the current human capacity at
each court is adequate, and how often are these systems monitored to ensure that it responds to the needs?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Chair. I thought that because it’s cold we were going to be released. Thank you for the question. The department is implementing a system where the regional heads will be playing a bigger role in monitoring all the courts across the country and also ensuring the functionality of the regional civil courts and the district civil courts, as you have said, including with the necessary capacity that will enable people to access justice, and also to ensure that they are functional and that the necessary resources which are needed are put in place to enable the functionality of such courts. From time to time we do receive complaints and we respond to such in a manner that helps capacitate the courts to function.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you
very much. The next follow up ... will be by hon S'lindile
Luthuli of the EFF.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thanks Chair, I will take the question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You may
continue, hon Zandamela.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Don’t let
the Minister confuse you, Zandamela. Don’t allow the Minister to confuse you. [Laughter.]
Mr S ZANDAMELA: No, no, no, I’m not confused, Deputy Chair. [Laughter.] I’m not confused. Minister, do the measures include setting up satellite offices in rural areas, as we are aware that there are no offices in rural areas? If there is, in which rural area has such a provision been made?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Did you get the question, Minister?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: No, I could
not get the question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I also
couldn’t hear what ... [Interjections.] Hon Zandamela, can you
just repeat the question please? Can you just repeat the question?
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Okay. Do these measures include setting up satellite offices in rural areas, as we are aware that there are no offices in rural areas? If there is, in which rural area is such a provision made?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Minister. Did you get it?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, thank
you, hon Chair. As you are aware, we do have satellite and mobile offices in some parts of the country but we are not expanding on that programme because of the costs involved, the logistics and issues that affect infrastructure. So, at this stage we are only operating the ones that have already been in existence. However, to ensure this issue of access ... as I’ve said, we have now rationalised all the courts to be in line with the local sitting of local municipalities and the boundaries, and we do believe that this will have revolutionised the places in which people can be able to access the courts in their nearest areas. We will continue to
assess and evaluate the process and monitor whether indeed it has responded to the challenge of access. If not, then we will be able to review.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you and hon Cele for being here. I hope I pronounce his surname correctly this time. Hon Minister, the last time there was a review of the upper limits that the magistrate’s courts, regional courts and small claims courts can deal with in civil matters, as well as the upper limits of section 18(3) — deceased estates, was in 2014. Understanding that reviewing the upper limits will not deal with the case backlog in lower courts, which in itself creates a problem or is a problem that requires a different and urgent solution, in the past eight years, inflation has meant that many cases that could’ve been dealt with by the lower courts which are closer to the people, were not handled by the lower courts. When will the department look at reviewing these upper limits again, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
We do review the upper limits from time to time and we continuously monitor the escalation in inflation and also the various factors that contribute to such. So, at this stage we
will come back to that again because there are also many factors that have affected the upper limits — COVID 19, the challenges of access to our facilities and all that, which also necessities that review. So, we continuously do so and we will be able to make an announcement at the right time. Thank you, Chair.
Question 71:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Deputy Chairperson. The Minister is not constitutionally empowered to pardon or remit sentences of offenders. In terms of our Constitution, only the President of the Republic is empowered by section 84(2)(j) of the Constitution to pardon or reprieve offenders. During the COVID-19 disaster period, a total of 14 500 inmates, consisting of 13 218 males and 787 females, low risk sentence offenders were through the COVID-19 Special Parole Dispensation placed in the community correction system to continue serving their sentences.
As a response to the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic declared by the World Bank Organisation, the Department of Correctional Services developed and implemented a response strategy which entailed prevention, containment, treatment and
recovery. Despite such comprehensive measures put in place, the department was confronted by glaring impossibility of maintaining physical distancing in its facilities due to overcrowding. This necessitated the exploration of other avenues to minimise foreseeable threats as advised by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights in line with the UN Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, also known as the Nelson Mandela Rules.
In managing and combating the spread of COVID-19 in correctional centres, the department recommended the placement of low risk sentence offenders on special parole by the President of the Republic. The President in terms of section 84(2)(j) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996, read with section 82 (1) (a) of the Correctional Services Act, 1998, authorised the consideration and placement of certain categories of certain offenders on parole. Certain low risk sentence offenders whose minimum detention period were not more than 60 months as and on 27 April 2020 qualified for the Special Parole Dispensation. Only offenders who had undergone relevant rehabilitation programmes aimed at addressing their offending behaviour, qualified for the placement.
It is important to mention that lifers and offenders who are serving sentences for the following offences were excluded from this dispensation; sexual offences, murder, attempted murder, sedition, high treason, sabotage and terrorism, gender based violence and child abuse, offenders declared as dangerous by the courts in terms of section 28 (6) (a) of the Criminal Procedure Act, offenders satisfied as mentally ill and detained in accordance with the Mental Health Care Act of 2002, offenders with further charges were bail was not fixed or fixed but not paid, escaped or absconded and are still at large on the date of announcement, offenders out on bail pending appeal on the date of the announcement, violations under the Domestic Violence Act of 1998, armed robbery with aggravating circumstances and armed robbery.
Any other crime directly linked to any of the above mentioned crimes, housebreaking with an intent to steal and rape, assault of a child, any attempt inciting, soliciting or conspiracy to commit any of the above crimes, and conspiracy to commit murder. These were the excluded offences. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Minister, its common knowledge that the successful conviction rate of criminals is currently very low in the country. In 2020, South Africa had about 155 000 prisoners, and after the release or pardon of these prisoners in May 2021, it was reported that at about 129 of these individuals were rearrested as alleged reoffenders after their initial release. Would you agree Minister, that the scourge of crime in the country could be contributed to a great extent, to the fact that these inmates that were not completely rehabilitated, released into civil society? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, we
do have challenges in our rehabilitation programmes because of overcrowding in our facilities. But the department does its best to ensure that inmates undertake skills of rehabilitation that are aimed to change their reoffending behaviour, and the majority of them, when released, they comply and they become positive role models in society. And a few of them do commit crimes and sometimes very heinous crimes that even catches headlines. This is the number that the department needs to focus on because a few is still too many if they commit any type of criminal offence.
Those that have gone through our rehabilitation programmes should be good citizens in the public. But the department has realised that the majority of those that reoffend are those that have been in our facilities on short term. Those who have not been fully rehabilitated by the rehabilitation programme. It is for that reason that the department is now also going to target those on short offences, including remand detainees who also come in for a short period of time - two weeks - three weeks - and then reoffend again. So, we are also going to target them and we will launch a programme to respond directly to these remand detainees. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr M NHANHA: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Good afternoon, hon members. Minister, the Head of the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services, JICS Judge Edwin Cameron, wrote that it would take you 409 days to clear the backlog of parole applications on your desk if you were to work for seven days a week on the lifers’ profiles. That is if you work through 11 profiles a day, and they still continue to pile up. How do you envisage working through this backlog?
And, can you recommit here today that you will continue to consider these applications on a case-to-case basis and not
follow the blanket approach just because you are under pressure? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Indeed, that is exactly what I am doing. I am following a case-by-case basis and I am considering each case on its merit, and I consider applications from time to time. I try to ensure that in my diary there is time allocated to attend to these applications. And indeed, the Judge is correct. The files are a lot. They triple in every month after the sitting of the National Council for Correctional Services, NCCS. They add into the huge pile of files that I have to consider.
Indeed, I consider them on a case-by-case basis in line with the Correctional Services Act. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Setswana:
Moh S B LEHIHI: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo.
English:
Are there any offenders who were released and rearrested again or who have violated parole conditions? Which measures were taken to ensure proper rehabilitation is rendered in correctional services and that community integration is
conducted in a way that offenders do not commit the same or similar offences upon release?
Setswana:
Ke a leboga Modulasetulo.
English:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Indeed, as I have said earlier, some of those released did reoffend. And as you are aware, those who were released in line with the Special Parole Dispensation were released during the COVID-19 difficult period, in terms of consultation and engagements. Most of the consultations were done telephonically with the victims, but the department endeavoured to engage all their victims, their families in terms of the Victim Offender Dialogue, VOD to ensure that they are aware and also that they participate in this parole process.
The other ... [Inaudible.] ... that the department usually use is the VOD with the public and community meetings where the community at large also participate. Unfortunately, during this period of covid it was very difficult to convene such
meetings as you are aware that public gatherings were prohibited. So, the department had to innovate and engage directly with the victims and some of their role players in the ... [Inaudible.].
It did yield fruits, but the real challenge also come when the inmates gets released into society. Where communities sometimes reject them because of the offences they have committed. This kind of stigma affect the inmate in a manner that sometimes they request to be brought back to our facilities or they end up reoffending in some of the situations because they either can’t participate in economic activities or even in the social life of their communities.
But our programmes of rehabilitation are aimed to address exactly that. So that the inmates are able to integrate in society and to play a meaningful role, either economically or socially. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Minister. By now you have answered my question. However, for the sake of emphasis, has any few persons who were in the community correctional systems that were sentenced for violent crimes, recommitted crimes after they were released? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He said as a matter of emphasis because you have been responding to that one.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, indeed
as I have said earlier on, in terms of this Special Parole Dispensation, those that were convicted of violent crimes were not released. But as I have said, those that served these short sentences or remand detainees, they are also the most people who we have seen in terms of our assessments of stats, who recommit crime. Most of the crimes that they commit are allegedly recommitted for economic nature. Gang activities within communities may also have contributed to reoffending.
Some crimes were committed under the influence of drug use or alcohol.
Some reoffenders were given second chance to continue with the supervisions. Some offenders also participate in some gang related activities, as I have said, including drugs and other behaviours that are not in line with societal norms in communities. But we continue to put them in programmes as they come back to our facilities of rehabilitation that are aimed to change their reoffending behaviour. As I have said earlier
on, this continues to be a working progress. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister that you have dealt with Question 71. Before we continue, I have been reliably informed that you have a visitor in the person of Mayor Swart of Bitou Municipality. Welcome Councillor Swart. He is in the gallery, but I don’t want you to look up because I don’t want people to have pain in the neck. [Laughter.] We will now continue as we come to Question
63 asked by hon G Michalakis.
Question 63:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, I will not have a challenge of a pain in the neck because I am tall.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, you are tall and at least you have that advantage.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: For the
2022-23 financial year, for the Master’s Office branch, declaring of the backlog dating back to 28 February 2022 and
older is included in indicator 5,9 as one of the turnaround strategies to be implemented.
During the first quarter the Master’s Office determined the backlog and created the baseline lists of masters outstanding. During the second and the third quarter, the Masters Office will attend to these matters by working overtime in order to reach out our indicated target of 100% of the determined backlog cleared by 31 December 2022.
It would however, be noted that this target can only be achieved in an enabling and stable work environment. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, you know what they say; you either have a pain in a neck or you are one. So, it is one of the two and I would rather have one in my neck.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was very worried to the fact that you said nothing since you came here.
[Laughter.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS: No, I never disappoint, Deputy Chairperson. Do not worry.
There is a backlog, hon Minister of 12 000 pieces of posts that still need to be processed according to one of your written replies and contracts for copiers were stalled for six months after lockdown. Also according to your reply.
We cannot forever blame covid and the hacking of the Masters Office information technology, IT, system. The system deficiency at the Masters Office have also been highlighted as one of the contributory factors to the thread of grey listing by the Financial Action Task Force, FATF.
Hon Minister, what is your message to those families who could not access funds due to frozen assets and estates that cannot be finalised due to the mess that the Masters Office created by the Masters Office in your department?
When will these people who currently cannot access the much needed funds and when will they be able to access those funds to pay their bills? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: It is not
correct that this was created by the Masters Office. As you have said, this backlog comes with the COVID-19 challenges including the hacking of the system.
The Masters Office is working very hard to respond to these challenges and to deal with the backlog. They have committed that they are attending to all these matters through their systems that are now back online which are now able to function and are now responsive to the issues.
We want to send the message to the families and those that are participating in the Master’s processes that indeed those challenges are being attended to including the organised profession that is participating in the space.
With regards to the grey listing, we are in the process of submitting a Bill to respond to the Trust Control Property Act that has been flagged as the main reason that needs responding to. That is being attended to. Soon it will go through the processes of Parliament and we are convinced that we will be able to respond to that process of FATF in terms of the grey listing. However, we are also dealing with other challenges
relating to that in terms of the mutual legal assistance, extradition requests and so forth, that that are responding to our compliance with those international regulations. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, what steps have been taken by your office to discuss the urgent service delivery issues at each Masters Office in the country in light of the extensive backlog? Has there been meetings with the Chief Master at each office?
Furthermore, in terms of media reports earlier this year, it was heard that overtime pay has been approved for all offices of the Masters Office until 20 December 2021 in a bit to address the backlog?
Can the Minister confirm that such overtime pay has been paid out? Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes. Thank
you. Thank you. Indeed, there has been meetings with the Chief Master including the Deputy Minister who has been visiting some of the Masters Offices, at times visiting them
unannounced to check whether some of the resolutions of the meetings are being carried out by the Master’s Offices across the country.
Challenges remain, but we continue to monitor and wanting to see improvement. That we are beginning to see it, but not in a pace that is satisfactory. We have registered that with the Chief Master. We have encouraged that employees should indeed work overtime to address some of these challenges and the backlogs which there has been some engagements, but I am not aware that there has been that agreement in terms of the overtime period up until December 2022. I can just confirm it with the Chief Master. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you for the response. The Masters Office is playing a very important role and it assist us a lot. However, I just want to find out if there is any strategy in place to make sure that there will be no backlogs in future? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, indeed if the Chief Master will be able to clear
the backlog by December 2022, we will be able to ensure that we do not go back to the life of a backlog because of the technology that the Masters Office has now installed which will enable efficiency and expeditious processing of some of the filled requests and also the shift lines and improving engagement with labour in the space. We do believe that we will be able to find a way that we do not again clock this huge backlog that we incurred from the COVID-19 period. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, does the Masters Office have adequate staff to do the work that is required to eradicate backlogs and are they skilled enough to do the work? If so, please provide the details.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, we
believe that they do have the staff required to handle the work hence the discussion as I have said earlier on was about maybe them looking to working overtime which was still the discussion with the Chief Master to deal with most of these backlogs.
Yes, they do have the skill. Most of them are qualified law graduates who have been trained in the Masters Office and who have also been trained by the Justice College. They have the requisite skills and most of the experienced practitioners out there were once employees of the Masters Office having gone through that process. They do have the requisite qualification. What we need now is ensure the functionality of the online system, the digital systems, the modernisation efforts, to enable the functionality of the Masters Office properly. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sorry hon Minister; I can see you are not well, but this system it is totally off, but is totally so cold. So, I am sorry for that. I can see you are not too well. So, but also when you speak of the Masters Office, we are so interested because it is really many of us that are affected by issues of the Masters Office.
We now move to Question 61, asked by the hon V Ndongeni. Over to you, hon Minister.
Question 61:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, we want to indicate that the mandate of victim empowerment is with the Department of Social Development.
However, as part of social reintegration efforts, the Department of Correctional Services contributes to the rehabilitation and preparation of offenders back into society through implementing programs which empower victims of crime and the broader community.
Our offenders and parolees are involved in community projects under the community corrections where they, amongst others, build houses for the community members, renovate schools, school furniture, and various other community projects, which directly or indirectly benefit victims of crime and indigent families. The Department of Correctional Services is responsible for the creation of an atmosphere conducive to restoring the relationships between offenders, victims, families, and communities through the restorative justice programme, hence the victim-centric approach is adopted. A restorative justice programme is being implemented whereby victims are afforded an opportunity to participate in parole placement considerations, victim-offender dialogue and victim- offender mediation. During the preparation of victims for
participation in Victim Offender Dialogue, VOD, ... [Inaudible.] ... the needs of the victims are identified and they are being referred to the relevant stakeholders for further assistance.
We must also note the alignment of the self-sufficiency strategic model and rehabilitation programmes. Therefore, inmates assigned to the Department of Correctional Services workplaces and offender training facilities are prioritised for accredited skills training interventions. For instance, inmates assigned to farms are trained in vegetable production, meat cutting, dairy production, just to name a few.
Inmates assigned to maintenance divisions are identified for building and plastering as well as painting. Inmates in production workshops are identified for the government making shoemaking, welding and carpentry. The Department of Correctional Services will start with the introduction of three learnerhip programmes such as welding, electrical ... hairdressing in September 2022 as part of the implementation of the self-sufficiency and sustainability programme also aimed to rehabilitate the inmates and offenders. Due to the vegetable gardening skills acquired whilst incarcerated, our
parolees and probationers have established vegetable gardens in some of the schools and communities where they assist in maintaining those vegetable gardens and victim benefits directly or indirectly from this vegetable produce. As indicated during our budget 2022-23, we indicated
R54,14 million is allocated for the implementation of the Self-Sufficiency and Sustainability Framework.
Self-sufficiency is one of the key strategic deliverables in the strategic plan of the Department of Correctional Services. A total of 45 identified victims have benefited from the socioeconomic support facilitated by the department for the first quarter of the 2022-2023 financial year. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chairperson, thank you, hon Minister, for the comprehensive response to my question. Hon Minister, self-sufficiency is very important in the integration of former offenders and parolees. My question is, is there any intention to increase the number initially earmarked for offenders? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Deputy Chairperson, indeed we continue to increase the number of offenders participating in our programmes for skills development. We are also working with stakeholders to consider parolees that have acquired skills in our programmes ... we are encouraging the private sector to consider them for employment opportunity programmes.
However, we are encouraging our parolees to consider entrepreneurship and they become employees by also sharing the skills they have acquired. For example, some of our parolees, have been able to start their own bakeries. They bake, for example, Mr Kgalane Thobejane from Limpopo acquired baking skills during incarceration at the Central Correctional Centre under Kgosi Mampuru II in Pretoria. Upon his release, he managed to establish a bakery business. He has employed two community members who are assisting him in baking bread and scones.
So we believe that with that kind of skill and this ... him now operating his businesses, the chances of him reoffending are almost zero. So we are looking forward to increasing the number of people who benefit in this way because as and when
they become engaged and involved in activities, it reduces the opportunities for reoffending. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.
Mr T APLENI: Deputy Chair, Minister, are there any records of inmates who through the self-sufficient strategic model have acquired skills, managed to establish their own businesses or get employed? If yes, is the government supporting them to establish their businesses? And for those who are seeking employment, would their criminal records not affect their search for work? If so, which measures of intervention have been put in place to assist them in securing employment? Thank you very much, Minister.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy
Chairperson, yes, indeed, there are records of the inmates who have acquired the skills. And there is also a record of those that have become successful outside the correctional centres. Like the name, I mentioned earlier. And also the second one that comes to mind is Mr Ands Magai, he obtained agricultural skills during incarceration at Polokwane Correctional Centre. He owns a successful farm. He has since employed two community members who assist him in running the business by ploughing and selling vegetables to the community at large.
And we have got a lot of them who are doing this great work; women who are ... also some of them running hairdressing salons; men barbershops. A lot of them are across the country. Indeed, they do face challenges in being employed because there is a stigma and a misconception in society that once you have got a criminal record you must never be employed. It is a challenge we are confronting as correctional services and also the Department of Justice is also confronting the perceptions, particularly in the private sector. We do understand when they do not get employed, particularly on matters that relate to sexual offences and so forth, particularly if they have been entered into the register. But the message must go out there that having a criminal record does not mean that you cannot be legally employed anywhere. They can be employed. They can participate meaningfully in the economy, particularly if they have acquired the skill. And we are also calling for society to welcome them, particularly those that have proven and shown that they want to now be positive role models, in the economy and also play a role in the positive contribution to their societies and their communities. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chair, hon Minister, the shortage of prison wardens and overcrowding in prisons poses its own problems with regard to implementing self-sufficiency strategic models. As you are aware, most of the prisons, especially in rural areas, do have sufficient land available and even neglected gardens that are not utilised or have not been utilised for years. When and why, Minister, were self- sufficiency models at prisons not monitored since 1996 to ensure that prisons are self-sufficient and not a burden to taxpayers, and, whom it is to be held accountable for this? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy
Chairperson, I can confirm that all that land that you have seen lying fallow, we are now ploughing. You can go anywhere now in the country, it is busy. There is activity. There are no longer any inmates who are not doing anything now. They are at work. You can go as members. I hope as you visit these prisons you will be able to see them on your own. I can say now, from this financial year, we will no longer be outsourcing eggs and there is another product, if I am not mistaken, is milk, that we will also no longer be outsourcing.
So already we are beginning to build that capacity and you can see and you can touch it. And that is why I am encouraging hon members as you move around the provinces to visit these prisons and see for yourself that indeed the self- sustainability model is working. And we are also very clear that as we outsource, we will outsource only what we cannot do in our facilities. And we are very clear that we are also not going to be price-takers because we now know what cost us to produce a loaf of bread. We are also bringing back a lot of bakeries in KwaZulu-Natal. We are putting up a bakery that will function in those areas. And in many areas where we do not have them. So, correctional services inmates are now back at work.
IsiZulu:
Bayasebenza!
English:
And they are going to eat what they work for. I can assure the hon members that our intention is that, by the time we finish this term, at least we must be back at almost 50% of this process of self-sustainability. And what I am saying is not some movie or something, you can see it because I know most of you visit ... do a lot of constituency work. So when you have
time, just go to one of the prisons next to where you stay, and you will see what I am saying in real action. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. There is one last follow-up that is the hon Ms H S Boshoff. I want to conclude by calling you but I can see the way you are cold you are already standing.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Like you, I cannot speak because I have been told I look like Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, we will have a little giggle about that, about my nose and the hairdressing saloons because there is a difference between a saloon and a salon but that is a discussion for a later stage. [Laughter.] Minister, you yourself indicated that the excess crops grown will be donated to needy families. We have, however, not experienced or seen this. Be that as it may, could you indicate to us what portion roughly of the money that the department claims to have saved has been reallocated to these rehabilitation programmes? And your department has also claimed to have saved R94 million in the 2020-2021 financial year, yet we see little increase in
rehabilitation spending. Minister, you have to agree, what is more, important than rehabilitation?
Afrikaans:
Dankie, agb Adjunkvoorsitter.
English:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy
Chairperson, when there was a disaster in KwaZulu-Natal, we delivered food parcels from this self-sufficiency programme the hon member says she has not seen. They made a meaningful contribution in the ... [Inaudible.] ... by a huge bulk which they could use for a very long time. That came from the inmates. In Oudtshoorn, they have adopted a school where they help with various vegetable gardens. In Limpopo, in the Far North Vhembe area, there are also a lot of schools. And you find these schools across the country where the inmates have played a role and also the parolees to maintain vegetable gardens. In Knysna, there is a school. So, across the country, you can see and touch what they have done. So, whoever does not see, deliberately shut his or her eyes not to see what is in front of them, but it is happening. And I just hope that you can just give yourself time and go and see it so that you
do not rely only on the reports but see it for yourself. And with regards to. the money that is being saved through this self-sufficiency programme, we are reinvesting to buy the machines that are needed.
Correctional services in the past used to produce its own uniform for the inmates and for the wardens, the prison officials but the machines were from 1983, outdated. They could no longer perform at a maximum function. We have now, through that money, bought the new machines in the Witbank Correctional facility which is now going to produce the uniform for the inmates and also for the wardens. And we do believe that with time we will no longer have a shortage of uniforms for both of them.
And we have also appealed to organised labour because this skill was no longer there, we are reintroducing it to the centres. They must accept that sometimes they will receive a skewed type of uniform like the Chinese struggled at the beginning, but with time they will perfect this art and in the next year or two, we believe that the uniform will be of good quality. And organised labour has agreed to sacrifice and be used as a guinea pigs during this period. But we believe that
will be able to perfect it with time. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. Members, we have now come to the end of the questions to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. I would like to thank the hon Minister for availing himself to answer questions and hon Minister, I am the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP. [Laughter.] Just to remind you of that. Members, I think we can just take a leg stretch. Just stand up because really I think we are stiff because of this cold.
Question 56:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. Working conditions are quite hostile here, but we will soldier on. In the wake of the rape of eight women who were part of the crew shooting at the music video by men believed to be the zamazamas, the Minister of Police held a crime combating imbizo in Kagiso, July 2022. During the imbizo, residents of the West Rand accused the local SA Police Service of corruption in terms of colluding with the zamazamas. However, to date no residents or community members
of the West Rand has come forward to lodge a formal complaint against any member of the SA Police Service, SAPS, with regard to corruption in relation to collusion with the zamazamas.
When the member of the community lodges a formal complaint with regard to corruption involving members of the SAPS, the matter will be investigated.
The SAPS anticorruption unit has been tasked to investigate the alleged collusion of SAPS members with the zamazamas.
Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister for your response to my question. It is encouraging to know that the anticorruption unit is investigating the allegations even though there have been no formal complaints. Minister, will you be able to assure the House that there will be serious steps taken if the unit establishes that there are police officers who have a case to answer? Thank you very much Minister and Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks hon House Chair and thanks hon Shaik. Yes, indeed, as we investigate and the police find that there is prima facie they will continue to take matters
forward in two ways. One, is to refer the matter to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, if it needs be. But also if there are other criminal activities it will be taken to other areas of investigations like the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, to pursue and find out if there are no members of SAPS that have committed criminal activities. Thanks, Chair.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon House Chairperson, my question is to Minister Cele. In the Free State’s Gold Fields, the zamazamas are charged for trespassing instead of illegal mining and they receive police protection in this way. It cannot be concise that these accusations are hollow if it comes from residents of two different parts of the country. Will the Minister understand to do a similar investigation into collaboration between the SAPS and the zamazamas in the Gold Fields? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister Cele will answer now. We believe that members that are here can also enlighten members of the community that should they see things that they suspect that they are criminal activities, go to the nearest police station to open the case.
It is very difficult for the police to investigate cases that are not opened. So, if it is opened then it will be followed and they can work with those communities. If they don’t get any joy they can elevate their matters to the provincial level, either to the MEC, provincial commissioner or the National Commissioner and the Minister himself. That’s why I would encourage that they open cases so that there can be investigations specifically on this matters. Minister Cele thanks you.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa Mutshamxitulu. Holobye, ndzi nga si nghena eka xivutiso xo sungula, vaakatiko va ka Dzumeri va ndzi rhumile eka n’wina. Hikwalaho ka leswi mi nga kona eka ntshamo wa namuntlha, ndzi ta kuma nkarhi wa ku mi vutisa xivutiso hi mayelana na xitichi xa maphorisa xa le ka Dzumeri
- Dzumeri Police Station. Yi tirha 24 wa tiawara hi maphorisa mambirhi na movha wun’we. Loko va huma ku ya hlamula swivilelo va pfala xitichi. Loko vanhu va fika va kuma leswaku xitichi xi pfariwile. Loko ku ri na ku cincana ka manghenelo ya vatirhi va fanele ku yimela maphorisa lama ma sukaka eGiyani
...
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mathevula, your question must be linked to the original question. If you have another one you can deal with it in a different manner. Ask your follow-up question.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Yes, I understand, Chair. That’s why I said to the Minister, can I please also pose this question. I take this opportunity because ...
Xitsonga:
... va kona naswona va nga kota ku ni hlamula ...
English:
... because the community is watching today. Through you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Address your follow-up question.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Through you, Chair, can I finish and then finish the initial question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, you can finish. Finish your follow-up question.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Holobye, loko va cinca mikarhi yo tirha movha yi suka 38km kusuka eka Dzumeri Police Station hikwalaho va pfala xitichi. Loko vanhu va yisa swivilelo va kuma leswaku ku pfariwile. Vanhu va tekeriwa swa vona hi nkarhi walowo wa ku ncicana ka vatirhi naswona vanhu va dlayiwa hi nkarhi walowo. Hikwalaho, hi kombela ku pfuniwa hi n’wina. Loko mi swi kota mi nga endla vuangameri ku ya vona ndhawu leyi leswaku yi njhani kutani vaaki va kota ku pfuneka.
English:
So, now I am going to the initial question of the zamazams. Does the Minister agree that the police...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: On a point of order, House Chair. It is incorrect for the members to do as they wish here. There are questions that are placed before the Ministers and we should be focused in raising questions as the Order Paper dictates. If members do have other issues you have correctly pointed it out, House Chair, that they can do so in a written
way and Ministers do respond to these situations. Let’s be focussed in how we deal with questions in the House. Thanks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am sustaining the point of order. But I allowed her to deal with the follow-up questions. I will leave it to the Minister if he is interested in commenting in the first one because it is not linked to the original question.
You are left with 50 seconds, hon Mathevula.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, does your department agree that the police lack capacity to fight the zamazamas or any other sort of criminal element in this country as the police respond to issues when they are in a spotlight or in front of local newspapers as the case with the zamazams? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks, Chairperson. I would have loved to know the first question. Which police station is that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It’s Dzumeri Police Station, Minister!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I don’t have an answer per se, but after this I will pursue it with the National Commissioner and the provincial commissioner on the matters you have raised because they are quite serious. it would be good if the police respond to that one.
The second on that the police have no capacity in dealing with the zamazamas, I am not very sure. Otherwise we would not have had more than 2 000 zamzamas that were arrested as we speak.
Those zamazamas do not get to prison toyitoying, but somebody sent them there - somebody arrested them and sent them there.
Regarding the question of the zamazams, the police have created a special team on July 2019 that began to deal with the situation of the zamazamas, especially at the Welkom area. The zamazamas went underground not just getting gold or diamond, but they began to divert water and electricity that was meant for the community. The police had to act. We have established this special team and it has been operating in the
Free State ever since. But there are other teams that have already have been established.
It is much broader than we think. There are 6 000 shafts that are underground and the zamazamas are all over, starting from the east to the west of Gauteng especially. All former Transvaal provinces are giving trouble including the Free State and the Northern Cape. Together with the Department of Minerals we are trying to work to reverse those issues. An amount of 6 000 of these open shafts are quite many for the police to deal with them simultaneously. Some of the zamazamas walk from the east in Springs to the west in Krugersdorp - walking underground. Sometimes you do have operations that pursue them down there. They sometimes find them and sometimes they don’t. But I think the police are creating the capacity, if it is not yet there, to respond to those matters. Thanks!
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, accusations of collusions are very serious as they have the potential to create distrust between citizens and the police. Considering the nature of these collusion accusations, how often our operational audits are performed on the pocket books of officers at the police precinct, and what are the actions
taken against those in contravention of those standard operations? Thank you, Chairperson and hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, on the question specifically raised, we did answer that we are investigating on that. But there are other allegations that have been made by communities. Indeed, as one says those have been investigated by the anticorruption unit within the SA Police Service and other investigating units like the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid. Indeed, there are members of the SA Police Service that have been dismissed either through internal processes or have been charged by the courts of law. Some of them were found guilty and given relevant kind of outcomes by the courts of law. Thanks!
Question 66:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, no, it is not appropriate for any police officer to lash out at an innocent citizen, in public or private. The conduct of members of SAPS is strictly governed by legislation, as well as by specific internal directives, policies and national instructions. All
SAPS members are required to sign the Code of Conduct of SAPS, which includes an undertaking that members will act impartially, courteously, honestly, respectfully, transparently, and in an accountable manner, and exercise the powers conferred upon them in a responsible and controlled manner.
Where a member is alleged to have acted in an improper manner, an investigation will be conducted, which may result in the member being charged with misconduct, in terms of the SAPS Disciplinary Reregulation 2016, and/or criminal charges against such individual. The contravention of the prescribed code of conduct is regarded as misconduct in terms of the regulations of the SAPS and it has serious consequences.
The circumstances of each individual incident must be investigated and considered to determine whether any action should be taken against the member involved and if so, what action ought to be taken. The sanction that is applied in respect of the member will be informed by the aforementioned investigation.
Allegations of a criminal conduct by SAPS members may also be referred to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, for investigation, in terms of their statutory mandate. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, Minister, you are supposed to set the example. Why did you find it appropriate then to do this, exactly this, in such and undignified manner when interacting with Mr Ian Cameron? According to what you have just said now, in other words, the police officers should not follow your terrible example and if you were a police officer, action should have been taken against you by now. Do you realise that you have lost the little trust and credibility amongst South Africans that you had left after the riots and the lockdown madness of last year and 2020, after this incident? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, Mr Ian Cameron is not just not an ordinary member of the public. In 2018, ... He was a campaigner. In 2018, he went to Australia where he was campaigning against South Africa and giving the wrong
information that 1 000 farmers are killed in South Africa every year. He was responsible for the AfriForum safety desk.
So, he is a campaigner and some form of a politician. So, that is how he acted, not like and ordinary member of the ... I am keeping the answer here.
However, besides that, there was no problem listening to Mr Cameron. The problem was that he said ... And again, he got the opportunity to say whatever he wanted to say to the Minister. And the Minister sat there and listened to him for quite a long time. The problem was that when there was a response, he could not take the response. He stood up, banged the table and all that. He could not listen and he disrupted the meeting. That is why he was taken out of the meeting. He could not have a big stomach to take what was said after he has said everything to other people.
As for the credibility lost by South Africans, I am not very sure where you go around with me and you listen to what people say. I will leave that to the South Africans because surely,
you are not mandated by South Africans to represent them and decide whether there is still some form or not. Thank you.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon House Chair, Minister, thank you for the detailed response, especially the latter part that he has given us because we were also confused and its was good for the public to clarify that. Minister, mine is on the signing of the conduct of the SAPS. Is there any training that is given to the police to try and keep this behaviour?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, indeed, after the basic training that takes place, as we speak, at the colleges, police are trained on other documents that are important in South Africa – the Constitution, the Human Rights documents, the Code of Conduct. Besides that, they do have ongoing training of other matters.
One document that they would have been trained on is a document called, Diversity and Dignity in order to understand the other extra kind of life orientation. For instance, that document will train them on things like LGBTIQ-plus and how to
treat people like sex workers and other people. That is ongoing and there is training on that and other documents. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, Minister Cele, it is a fact that thousands of farmers have been killed in South Africa since 1994 and this a crime that is still taking place in the country, as we speak. I want to know whether it is a crime to bring this fact under the attention of the international arena. From you answer, one could say that the moment someone advocates for the safety of individuals, that person could not be seen as a normal citizen anymore. That is what you basically implied with your answer. I want to know, as you mentioned, police officials must adhere to the code of conduct, the code of ethics and the Batho Pele principles, do you think your actions, your attitude, your utterances during public meetings are in line with the SAPS Code of Conduct and if not, what remedial steps will be taken in this regard? Do you value the lives of ordinary South Africans enough, to allow someone to advocate for the life and the safety of individuals? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I did not hear the first part of the lecture, but on the second part about the members of the SAPS that must follow the code of conduct and that there are structures to take them on, if they don’t follow it, is the same for the members of the executive. You take them to the codes and the ethics of the members of the executive, which one political party has done. It has taken the Minister to that body. Maybe, it is time that we wait for the outcome of that body. You cannot do both, take the Minister there and then before you get the results, you come back to pre-empt what the results would be.
That has been done already, So, let us wait for the outcomes of that process. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: House Chair, Minister, are you not of the view that such an outburst from any police officer or Minister on a public platform demonstrates unethical behaviour, ... [Inaudible.] ... action, if not, why? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I have answered that actions are taken for members of the SAPS. And then are ways and paths to be taken if there is suspicion that an executive member has
not behaved properly. There are processes that should be taken and then we must wait for the outcomes of those processes.
Thank you.
Question 57:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, the South African Police Service Education Trust, is currently not fully functional. Since the resignation of the South African Police Service Education Trust, SAPSET Board members, the outstanding fees for 2020 and 2021 could not be paid. The board is the only structure authorised to approve the processing of payment. Hence the outstanding payment could not be processed.
The South African Police Service is currently in the process of resuscitating both the SAPSET Board and the executive committee. In order to activate the processing of the payment in the interim non-financial support is still being provided to the affected children. Seven learners who are SAPSET beneficiaries have been assisted financially with the help of Tracker who paid the tuition fees directly to the higher institution, where they are currently studying. That will be the reply for now, House Chair. Thanks.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you very much hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, thanks for the response to the question.
Minister, it’s obvious that the non-function of SAPSET is having a negative impact on the education of the children, especially police officers who died on duty. When is the department intended to finally set up the SAPSET Board and the executive committee and what assistance is the department currently giving to qualifying children who cannot pay for their studies, I thank you, hon Minister? Thank hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, indeed is a painful take that such thing can happen. We are trying to work on especially on the board. At one time the board had very imminent South Africans, it was chaired by Father Smangaliso Mkhatshwa, and the Judge Yvonne was part of it, Yvonne Chakachaka was part of it, very imminent South Africans that were part this board. Unfortunately, there is issue that ... or allegation that there were not treated very well by the predecessors of some national commissioners, so they had to withdraw. But, at the present moment, we are working hard, we have approached again other imminent South Africans to be part of that board, to be able to allow this good body to function.
But when it comes to executive that is made by the South African Police Service Members, we expect it, that come September they will be able to be inaugurated and be able to continue with their work. But fortunately there are quite several people that are coming forward because they want to part of this good work, even outside the board, because the money cannot be utilised if it’s not sanction by the board. So, they will come and they are requested some of them to deal directly with the institutions of the higher learning.
Thou we concede that there are problems, hence we are trying to fast track the creation of the board. So that those students and those children that they lost their parents especially on the line of duty, they are assisted going forward, thanks.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, I would like to know how long is the period that the trust supports the children of the deceased officers and how is this period determined? Thank you House Chairperson and thank you Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: We believe that it should not be a very long time hon member. As we say that the executive has
been put in place, but the board is... people they volunteer there, but you also try their best that you get South Africans of imminence. South Africans that will be trusted by the rest of South Africans. Because they deal with quite a sizable amount of finances there. So, it’s good if you get people that will be trusted. We hope that it won’t be long before we create both the board and the executive. But, the executive we are about to and we hope it should a short time. So, this good work that is done with the orphans of the Members of the South African Police Service that are dying on duty, their lives continue especially in terms of achieving education. Thanks.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thanks, House Chair. Minister, the funding provided, is it sufficient to meet the needs of the children until postgrad? Thank you House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: If you could repeat the question House Chair, I don’t think got it ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is the fund more than enough to meet the needs of the kids? The fund provided, is it more than enough to meet the needs of the kids?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, no definitely the funds at the present moment, funds are not enough, because the funds should be fundraised from the different bodies. And, for those funds to be well kept and to be functionally, the board should be functional. But for now funds are not enough that’s why requests are made from outside bodies to assist here and there. But to say we are just rolling we have enough funds, it could not be said at the present moment. Thanks House Chairperson.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you House Chairperson. Minister in May this year it was revealed that almost 500 children of slain cops have not received bursary money, from the South African Police Service, SAPS. Now, there is clearly financial maladministration, since allocations could not have been made to beneficiaries, if there was not money to do so in the first place. Now between the allocation and the payment, it seems the money has disappeared. Has an investigation been lodged into financial affairs of the trust, if not why not? And if so by when can we expect report Minister? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well House Chairperson, the Deputy National Commissioner was dealing with the matter General
Vuma, was looking at the question of non-availability of funds, or the suspicions that there was embezzlement of funds, but one has not received the full report coming from there.
Again the question of not having the board, as we are working hard that the board must come life, is having the negative impact. Because these companies, quite several of these companies... by the way this money is raised from the ordinary corporates in South Africa who wish to put and assist and help the police officers. So, they are very jittery to come and put the money where there is no board. In which one will agree with them. But, the board which we hope that in a very near future, will be. We will able to go back to these companies or the board itself, will go back to these companies. To say here we are, put some monies, but the investigation surely will have to find out what were the outcomes and whoever has committed any embezzlement of the funds will have to bear the consequences of that. Thanks.
Question 46:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the SA Police Service, SAPS, did not wait for the incident such as the rape of eight
women for the police to respond. During 2019, an increase in the illicit mining activities was experienced in the Northwest, Limpopo, Gauteng, Free State, Mpumalanga and Northern Cape provinces. A multidisciplinary approach to the establishing of the mining industry was adopted by the establishing of integrated task teams.
In 2020 and 2021, illicit mining incidents including damage to infrastructure, continued to show an increase. Various subcommittees were established at the national level to focus on illicit mining, including stabilization and normalization, integrated resources training, and development integrated work, study investigations and legislative review subcommittee was formed.
Since July, 2021, special stabilization operations were initiated and implemented in the affected provinces. The SAPS have now established economic and infrastructure task teams that address illicit mining and other related crimes, including damage to critical infrastructure in 18 prioritised district municipalities. The SAPS has also mobilized national specialized policing capabilities to the Free State,
Northwest, Limpopo and Mpumalanga provinces. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the police were again found sleeping on the job by failing to rid the community from the terror carried by the zama-zamas in Krugersdorp. Why did the Minister not respond to the complaint as it was logged by the residence before it happened?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, as it has been said before, indeed, there were issues raised by the residents, especially of Kagiso, West Rand and East Rand. There have been operations, as I have said even before what happened in Krugersdorp and Kagiso. In places like Randfontein and Mohlakeng there were operations before this incident. Maybe indeed, specifically in Kagiso, there has not been a response before this happened. But many people have been arrested even before this day happened in Krugersdorp.
Chairperson, as I have explained again, there were operations, it might not be in Kagiso per se. But there were operations as I have said in Free State, but also in Northwest, I am sure
many of the members did see one of the top operations run by the SAPS especially that elite unit called the Special Task Force where they went to shut down the mine that was illegally operating with all the big machines. We even arrested what would be termed as the owners of that illegal mining there and there were luxury cars there. The police together with the private companies worked together in very successful operations, specifically Kagiso. But broadly, police have been really acting on this matter of the illicit mining. Thanks.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much hon House Chair. I want to know if the Minister is still of the opinion that the woman that was raped once is lucky. And I would like to know if you are going to make a public apology to all women that have been raped and sexually assaulted in this country for the ill- informed, idiotic and hypocritical statements that you made?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I think it is the seventh time I’m trying to respond to this one and I’ll respond again.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: You have to apologize.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I’m not going to apologize for the things that I did not know. Let me repeat what I said on that particular day. Let me repeat what I said. I had an interview after I have gone to Krugersdorp and after I had seen the eight women that were abused, they were eight of them and I met six of those women, young and traumatised. So I went to visit them together with their parents.
Then I was told that some women were raped by ten men, another woman was raped by one man and the other woman was raped by eight men. Another woman was raped by six men and another one was raped by four men. And we were told that this one was raped by one man.
It is on that score that women were raped by ten men and this young woman was lucky if that was a luck, that’s a statement. You go and listen to the statement! There was no statement made that the young woman was lucky. There is no such statement. The statement says, if that was luck, because it was a full understanding that could not have been lucky and it could have been worse. And, indeed, for a single woman to be raped by one man or ten men, is all the bad. That’s the statement. If that statement is picked out context, I will not
apologize for something that is moved from the context, to accommodate a certain political party’s narrative and also making a campaign out of that. So I am not going to be part of that campaign and I repeat, I have never said that the woman is lucky without qualifying what I said. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, are there any Ministerial oversight or agreement in place to ensure that illegal immigrant miners are arrested and are indeed processed and deported? Not like the arrests that took place in Orkney in the Northwest province in October 2021, where more than 500 miners were apprehended. Some of these individuals shot with live ammunition at police officers, they were medically examined for dehydration and then released. It is said that only 35 of these suspects were arrested for attempted murder causing an explosion and malicious damage to property and conspiracy to commit crime.
Minister, the question is, when will the special unit that you referred to in your previous answer that tend specifically with regards to the zama-zama issue be deployed in the greater Kenneth Kaunda region that includes Matlosana and Orkney in the Northwest provinces to address this zama-zama issue?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I think I have said that the multidisciplinary teams have been established. It could not be all over the country. We are dealing with six provinces and it cannot be all over the six provinces simultaneously. They have acted on these matters and as I have indicated Free State was the first province to have this specialist from July 2019. We have put some of them at the places again like Krugersdorp, Mohlakeng and they’ve been having some successes including Orkney, where there was a big operation that operation also run by the Special Task Force of the South African Police and the National Intervention Unit.
I’m sure the hon member did see that operation in Rustenburg that took place to shut down that mine.
I have said that we are creating 18 of these special units to be operating on different districts where the matter has been raised. As soon as we train them, because it could be a dangerous work they’ll have to be trained, they’ll have to know their topography and the geography under underground, and recruit people that will be able to work closely and with a full understanding how the life goes on there, and will be set to do their work.
But that does not mean that work is not happening at the present moment. As I have said that many are arrested but also some people have been rescued underground including women that have been taken underground there, to be sex slaves, they have been rescued by the members of the South of African Police.
They illicit economy that is going on there, selling everything. We have cut the supply of those things going underground. So the work is continuing and the improvement is made in terms of enhancing the work to deal with the illicit mining. Thanks.
Mr M DANGOR: Minister, the task team that is working both in Krugersdorp and other areas, is it harmonized between the police, the mining sector, home affairs and other departments that are involved. Is there a thing that harmonizes that looks at these matters to actually resolve those matters collectively? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Indeed, there are quite serious talks between the Department of Minerals and Energy, the SA Police Service and the
Department of Home Affairs. To say it’s harmonized in the level where they created the multidisciplinary team from the different departments, I wouldn’t say so. But there are different components of work that are supposed to be done by different departments. For instance, the closing of these shafts and the rehabilitation of the mines that falls under the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, DMRE.
But also, dealing with the illegal immigrants who come to do illegal mining here that would fall within the DMRE and the Department of Home Affairs at the present moment.
With these operations, you find that there are 14 and 15-year olds that are found by the police in these shafts and they are arrested in these illegal operations. When you ask them where they come from they tell you that they come from Maputo. From Maputo there is no 14-year old that would know that there is place called Krugersdorp.
Therefore, the people working on the border and the police, the home affairs will have to work on that strong suspicion that there is illegal human trafficking and all that. But in indeed, it has been agreed and the departments are working
together to create a very harmonized way of responding to this matter, including the National Prosecution Authority, NPA, justice and everybody to say, this will have to come to an end. Thanks.
Question 68:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The Gauteng Province received an allocation of 2 128 entry level SA Police Service Act of 1995 employees, for the 2022-23 financial year and is currently staffed at 99,33%. In addition, the Gauteng Province received
478 posts in the current post promotion, phase one for 2022-
23. The total overall shortage of 214 posts currently exist in Gauteng Province.
The National Treasury contracts are RT46 for repair and maintenance and RT45 for tools and spare parts, are in place to expedite the repair and maintenance of vehicles and to improve vehicle availability and the turnaround time for repairs and maintenance. All outstanding vacant posts in the SA Police Service, SAPS garages are currently being processed for the advertisement and filling of post to address turnaround times, in those garages that do not have adequate personnel including artisans specifically. The SAPS ensures
that a sufficient budget is allocated for the procurement and the provisioning of critical physical resources and equipment to all members eg, uniform, firearms, bullet resistant vests and handcuffs. Thank you very much Chair
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you House Chair and thank you, Minister. Minister, I think you would agree that was the crime stats that were reported last week, combined with the staff shortage and the resource shortage we should be looking wherever we can to find ways to co-operate with whoever is willing to co- operate with us in the police service, to ensure that we can get the job done.
Now, Minister, let me start by congratulating SAPS for their willingness to become involved in the new joint operations centre in Mossel Bay, where emergency services, disaster management teams, sea rescue, local community police forums, CPFs and SAPS are now able to share real time information, share resources and share intelligence in the fight against crime. It is a big step in moving together towards community co-operation. But it is an isolated and unique instance Minister. We cannot forget that under your watch, the
reservist programme which is there to support the police has been totally hollowed out against all logic.
Minister, will you commit to immediately opening up the system, to allow volunteers to step in as reservists and do the work that the full time police service seems unwilling to do? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, thank you Chair. I would agree with the hon member; the congratulations also go to the rest KwaZulu-Natal. There was a very beautiful working together of all the combination of bodies that we have mentioned, together with SA National Defence Force, SANDF, SA Police Emergency Services, and all other private security companies. They worked very well in KwaZulu-Natal. We have agreed that maybe that is a way to go that, as we are speaking to them coming from different provinces, I saw that the Western Cape congratulated theirs as they came back and also Gauteng. So, that has been happening. I think it is a little bit broader than what you have you have raised. So, we thank that.
Chairperson, the question of the resources of the SA Police Service, for some reason has gone down. One has said this time
and again that, in the year 2010 we had 195 000 members of the SA Police Service all combined. Today as we speak, we have
176 000. We are 20 000 down. We thank at least the President and the Treasury that have availed the resources to train
10 000 as we speak, that will be released come 15 December, and then next year there will be another 5 000. We are still making the appeal to make another 10 000 so that we have
20 000 at least in two years, which will be equal to 2010 and not coming close to 2022.
But the question of the reservists being eradicated under the present system is not very correct. People that are in colleges we speak Chairperson, 3 000 of them have been taken from that process. That is why they are staying shorter in the college because they have been trained before they understand. We expect them to pay to have the pass out long before December, because at least they know the game. So, it is not really correct. Most of them, have been taken to college to be made fully fledged police, though we had to relax some restrictions especially age, driver’s license and all that but because they have been there as volunteers, they have been given that opportunity and that opportunity is not closed.
The problem that happens here is that, there are very strict regulations on how you join to become to become the reservist, they know. But, as soon as they become the reservists, they want to break those regulations. For instance, one of those regulations is that, once they are reservists they demand to be employed permanently which then bypasses the strict regulations that puts you in the system. So, we will urge those members that they come as volunteers to stay within that lane, rather than come as volunteers and then they change the demand and the goalposts as soon as they are in. But that system is absolutely kept by the SA Police Service and is not about to be eradicated. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, considering the budget constraints, what measures are in place to build the capacity of police officers with regard to treating survivors of
gender-based violence? Thank you Chair and thank you Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well Chair I’ve just said that, we are
20 000 down. The training that is taking place at the college will help because the specialised units must recruit from the police that are basically trained. For instance, from the
10 000 that is at the college as we speak, 4 000 already has
been earmarked to go and join the public order policing. You will know that Farlam himself, the experts under Professor Africa and the President twice, has called this question of the public order policing to be improved. That is what we are doing.
But when it comes to gender-based violence issues Chair, we have increased the capacity of the family violence, child protection and sexual offences, FCS. We have trained about 900 of the members of SA Police Service to specialise at the level of the police station, to be able to take the statement as the members of the community come there to open the cases rather than tell them to go back, and that is said time and again.
The code of conduct including how to behave when they are coming to open the case of gender-based violence and abuse of children and elderly is there. Those are trained to make sure that they take the matters forward.
More so Chairperson, we have made sure that things like buccal samples don’t run short again at the police station level. The top 30 stations that have more crime when it comes to the gender-based violence have been given extra resources. For instance, we put about 100 million extra for those stations to
share that money so that things like training, things like buccal samples and all the kits that are necessarily supposed to be there if it needs be, they don’t follow the red tape of procurement, they just go and procure these things so that we don’t run short of this matters again.
Chairperson, the question of the DNA even today before one came here was in laboratories. We are quite satisfied that matters are on track. For instance, we have reduced the backlog here in the Western Cape laboratories. We promised that we might finish the backlog come September. It might be October because we are 25 000 down coming from 136 000 down. We are on track to deal with the matters that deal with the question of the gender-based violence chairperson, the abuse of children and, and the elderly. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N NDONGENI: Ndosi, hayi namhlanje uphendule kuyacaca ukuba siyakubhatala. Nook uza kakuhle ngoku.
English:
Thank you hon Minister for your response. Hon Minister, except for Gauteng, what is the allocation for new entry level SA
Police Service Act of 1995 employees for the 2022-23 financial year? Thank you Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, unfortunately I did not do mathematics, I did arithmetic at school, I am not very good with numbers. But the allocation ...but ... is your dead brain, that is the answer [Laughter.] But the allocation will be according to the strength of the provinces. Chairperson, we’ve got three provinces that give us nightmares when it comes to the crime statistics, it is Gauteng, Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. The Eastern Cape comes now and again, it comes in and comes out. Maybe again, one must take the opportunity to congratulate the Mpumalanga Province for their crime statistics. They are totally green totally green. Mpumalanga Province is totally green now on what they did this time.
So, this 2 000 you see in Gauteng, if I am not mistaken, for Western Cape it is 1 200 and KwaZulu-Natal is 1200. The rest of the provinces will share the rest of the numbers. But that does not necessarily mean that, all the members that came from that province will go back to the province, because even as we speak now, the provinces are having different strength. This
province which is the Western Cape by the way, is one province that has been given a lot of extra resources. This is the only province that has for the last 18 months, got 200 extra police from different provinces under the command of Colonel Mashamba, who comes from Limpopo himself. For the last 18 months, we sent those here. This is the only province, that being the Western Cape, that has the fully fledged antigang unit of 161 members and 47 cars dedicated to them. Others do have, but not fully fledged.
When we last trained in 2019, we trained 5 000 recruits in the Republic of South Africa, 1 200 of them were sent to the Western Cape and the rest of the country divided among themselves 3 800. So this province has been looked after very well when it comes to policing. Even those police officers that come from other provinces to work here, 200 quarterly, they come here with their own cars from the different provinces to come and work here. So, it is one of the well looked after provinces, Gauteng we are trying to because of
... and KwaZulu-Natal, most resources will be on those provinces because for us to deal with the crime and reduce the crime we have to deal with those three provinces. Thank you very much.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: House Chairperson, first of all I would like to say thanks hon Minister for the good work at Ekurhuleni of Thatha-Zonke Anti-Crime Unit, they are doing very well.
Minister, noting the ... [Inaudible] ... played by the police reservists supplementing police officers, why has the Minister not relied in the police reservists to assist the police in fighting crime? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, that question is same with the neighbour of hon Motsamai. [Laughter] Chairperson, we do rely on the reservists, but we have taken an extra minute to say maybe it is unfair to keep them reservists all the year. I have just given the figure to say, from the reservists we have taken almost 3 000 and sent them to colleges. They will come out as fully fledged police rather than reservists.
But those places will be filled again with the volunteers yes, that will be there. At no stage that the SA Police Service will do without your reservist.
The only thing that we request is that, as they are recruited to be reservists, they shouldn’t go and use that position to go the extra mile and demand extra. For instance, let me put
it this way, the age limit for you to join the SA Police Service is 30 years, but with the reservists we allow them to go a little bit higher, and all that like driver’s license, and all that. So it is a question of flexibility with the reservists, but they are recruited, the stations recruit them. They are allowed. There is no policy that says there shall be no reservists. We will continue to work with them. They are quite a good multiplier of the numbers when it comes to visibility and the policing. Thank you.
Question 58:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The first answer is yes, and 1b is multidisciplinary task teams have been established in all nine provinces consisting of members from the SA Police Service, the SAPS, Hostage Negotiation Capability, Special Task Force, Detective Services and Crime Intelligence. Cases that are received by the SAPS are investigated by Detective Services Organised Crime Investigation Capability in the respective provinces. When an incident is reported, the Joint Operational Centre activates all stakeholders to ensure the prompt conducting of preliminary investigations. Leads are followed up pertaining to the identification of possible suspects with the aim to track, trace and arrest the suspects and to locate
the victims. Yes, there have been positive outcomes from April 2022 until July 2022, 29 cases have been received and nine arrests have been made with some prominent successes by the SAPS on this one. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you, hon Minister for your response to the question. It is encouraging to hear that the police are taking note of this developing criminal activity. Hon Minister, some families pay the ransom in trying to get back their family members.
IsiZulu:
Umbuzo wami Ngqongqoshe uthi: ...
English:
... How does this hamper the police in executing their duties and what would be your advice to people when they are faced with this predicament? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair. This is a very much traumatising experience, I can imagine. Hence, the police have put a very able unit to deal with these matters, led by Major-General Level from the Crime Intelligence who is
dealing with these matters. I am sure members themselves have really noticed some successes of late of this one. The only problem these things will get the very prominent space in the media and otherwise when they happen, but when they are resolved nobody makes a big story about them. The latest is a six-year-old boy, ... it doesn’t sound like the work was done. Two days after he was abducted or kidnapped, police arrested somebody in Gauteng when they were doing their work and it was on that score that the matter was broken and that the boy was brought back to the parents. There is somebody - that person was arrested two days after that had happened. Another one, is the prominent person. I think, it was Mr Rajah, who was kidnapped for 111 days. When the family was on its way to pay R25 million ransom, police broke the case and he was found in Khayelitsha and that family did not pay that ransom and all that - the good work the police did. So, there are serious successes that the police are doing on these matters. Maybe the police are not telling the world about these successes, but there are successes.
Another thing is that we try very hard to work very closely with the families when these things happen and send negotiators because they are traumatised. The force and the
hard approach are the last thing that happens. However, what we exactly do with families, we say to them, ... maybe it will be good to say, we do deal with families. But to come here and say exactly that we do one, two, three, might begin to jeopardise those skills that are used by the police to deal with those matters. However, we do work with families very closely and we do have successes, big successes as the police on these matters. Thank you very much, Chairperson and I’m glad to say that.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, with reference to the kidnappings of business persons, their families and or relatives, were there any cases found that the kidnappings were staged by so called victims in an attempt to commit insurance fraud? If yes, how often does it happen?
Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Again Chairperson, with due respect to the hon member, some of these things remain very sensitive. To
... come and say ... that people are kidnapped for insurance. Yes, in a nutshell, that happens, but to give extra details on those matters that, this is what they do, this is what they do
- firstly, one would be creating some copycat. Secondly, one
will be giving ways that are used by the police who are working on these matters to try and stop them, as law enforcement agencies to limit those things. But to the question that do people try to kidnap people for insurance and all that, I can say, yes. Even relatives sometimes do. On the matters that remain unresolved, it will not be very wise and scrupulous to say some cases ... but in some cases, they happen and when the police respond you find that families completely refuse to co-operate and other families request to be left alone and one will not be forcing families. Others when one tries to pursue the matter, they leave the country and one never knows what happened, they leave the country without helping the police to able to resolve those matters.
Maybe it is good to end there for now. To the main question, yes, there are some of these activities that are abused not just for ransom, but for insurance. Some are done by the relatives of what would be the victims. Thank you.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, I must say that with the echo that’s in the House some of the members’ really do sound like empty tins coming here through the television screens. But on a serious note, hon Minister. There are reports of more and more extortion related kidnappings
happening. Many of them happening here on the Cape Flats as well and it’s true that currently a lot of the management as you said yourself is centralised and managed from a national level. Hon Minister, don’t you think that it is worthwhile letting provincial governments to play a prominent role in addressing these challenges in an area where they are a lot closer to the ground and ready to react in real time? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: That is correct. These kidnappings, hon member, are rarely provincial. It’s very rare that they are provincial, are usually nationally and internationally. So you might find that you miss the target when you make these units very provincial, but that does not mean that at the extortion level, you can’t work with the province. Again, by the way, the first extortion unit was created in this province by the premier, the city and the national office. Even today that unit still exists. Premier is represented by ... I have forgotten the name of the gentleman that represents him. We work together with him. That’s one body that me and JP work together on, that has been here for some time. It has some good stories to tell, but the problem with the Western Cape, it went in very minute small level, this extortion. The
extortion where they will go to a person who works in your house, a helper, and they would ask the helper, how much does she get paid. She would say she gets paid R500 and then go to you, as an employer and say they want tax for them ... to pay tax because you have somebody who is employed. But we have had successes even in here. I am sure you are aware of a young man who has been arrested called Bara here in the Western Cape with 31 charges. He has been quite running some several of those issues. Among those 31 charges, there are 19 dead bodies that are counted on those charges. He is a young man of 30 years. I’m told he is a teacher by profession and I don’t know why would he own about eight taxis. But the problem now is that also after that guy was arrested, they marched. I’m not going to say which townships. There was a march by the community demanding that he must be released by Cele. They were saying Cele, you can’t arrest that person, which means they are not just doing these things, they are consuming communities. They are also buying communities of which all of us will have to work with the communities, to say they will have to be part in working with the law enforcement agencies to deal with those matters. We are responding to that. We are working at the provincial level, but I want the members to understand that it is very rare, especially on the big ...
like Mr Rajah and the last six-year-old boy for the fact that on the second day somebody was arrested in Gauteng, not in the Western Cape, was one of those who were responsible. It is an issue that we need to look overall nationally and internationally rather than sticking on the provincial level. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister, that was your last question. That brings us to the end of the question. Hon Minister, let me take this opportunity and thank you, Minister of Police and Minister of Justice and Correctional Services for availing yourselves to answer questions in the NCOP. That concludes the business of the day and the House is adjourned. Thank you very much.
The Council adjourned at 16:59.
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