Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 23 Jun 2022


No summary available.


Watch: Plenary

Members of the virtual plenary session met on the virtual platform in the NCOP Chamber at 09:34.

The Chairperson of the NCOP took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to remind you of the following: That virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

That the place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town where the seat of the National Council of Provinces is.

That delegates in the virtual sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

That for the purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present.

That delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak. And that delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted, unless they are speaking.

That the interpretation facility is active. And that permanent delegates, Members of the Executive, special delegates and South African Local Government Association, SALGA, representative are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.

That any delegate who wishes to speak must use the ‘raise your hand’ function and any delegate who wishes to raise a point of order, should be in accordance with rule 693 indicating in terms of which rule, he or she is raising.

That he is been informed that there will be no notices of motions or motions without notice, accept the motion on the order paper.

FIRST MOTION - Draft resolution (Chief Whip of the Council): That the Council, notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 31(1) of the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, grants Hon. ER Landsman leave of absence from proceedings of both the Council and committees of the Council in terms of Rule 31(2) until the honourable Delegate is ready to resume his duties.


(Draft Resolution)

There was no debate.

Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with Section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

There was no debate.

Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with Section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before we proceed to the first and second orders, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome all permanent and special delegates to the House. We will now proceed to the first and second orders.

21 JUNE 2022

21 JUNE 2022

Mr Y I CARRIM: Yes, Chairperson, it’s ... [Inaudible.] ... I replaced him. It was a misunderstanding. Chairperson, comrades and friends, we are basically dealing here with two different types of instruments. One is a protocol agreement between our country and the government of Kuwait and the other is a multilateral instrument which is part of several countries.

So, what usually happens is that our government, through the respective department and the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, negotiates these agreements with other countries. Sometimes it’s a bilateral, sometimes a multilateral agreement.

Now, in terms of the Constitution, I think it’s ... 231(2) of the Constitution, you have to approve these, you effectively have to ratify them. The power is limited. You either accept or you reject the agreement. You don’t have the power to amend it.

So, normally what happens is that where there are issues of public interest or interest to some constituency or other in the South African public, what would happen is that the relevant department and ... [Inaudible.] ... the Department of International Relations and Co-operation will consult with those constituencies or advertise in the Gazette for comments. So whatever consultations occur, occurs before it comes to Parliament. It becomes doubly challenging for us on the NCOP side because obviously we are not a federal state. We don’t have agreements between one province here and the state of, say, Kuwait or Britain or whatever. So, you know there is no provincial dimension. So, really it’s a ... [Inaudible.] ...

of ratification. That’s what our committee has done and now we

put it to the House to vote on.

So, very quickly, basically the first one is on base erosion and profit shifting, which is something more familiar to our committee. It’s a multilateral instrument that flows from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, and the Group of Twenty, G20, countries, which we are a part of.

Basically, what happens here is ... By base erosion and profit shifting we mean, let’s say the first part is eroding the base of a country ... tax base. So, what happens is, let’s say a mining company, as often happens in our country, secures
R10 of profits in our country. It doesn’t pay the tax on the R10 of profits. It does ... with very sophisticated loopholes that they seek in our law and with the help, interestingly, of the powerful chartered accountant companies, they actually find a way of reducing their profits in this country to R2 and the R8 extra profit gets processed through the Cayman Islands or Mauritius or one of these low tax havens. So, in fact what basically happens is that the companies do not pay the tax that they have generated in our country. So we lose out in our fiscus ... in our revenue and they pay it in another country

where there is either no tax on that or very low tax. So we lose out and that is why base erosion and profit shifting ... In other words, they shift their profits from one country to another. They shift it to a country where, in fact, they ... [Inaudible.] ... there’s no productivity, there’s no economic activity, there are no profits secured there. They move it there instead of paying their taxes here. Mining companies in South Africa are particularly guilty of this. Chairperson, you will be surprised or perhaps not surprised ... who serves on the boards of these companies.

This has been going on forever. In fact, our party’s regime tried to stop it before we came to power anyway. It’s through the G20 and multilateral institutions ... [Inaudible.] ... developed and developing countries that we can seek to fight this. We constantly change our tax legislation to close the loopholes but these experts who serve as these multinational companies are often very sophisticated, and they find ways and means to avoid paying the taxes they should.

Now, on this one, 137 countries, 23 being African, have committed themselves to this multilateral instrument and they are working together to the extent, you know, we can. Of course, many of these multinational companies’ headquarters

are in Europe and so on, in the developed part of the world. So we have to get their co-operation to tackle their very own headquartered companies.

There are 15 actions adopted in this base erosion and profit shifting multilateral instrument, what we call Beps. Our government signed it on 7 June 2017. By January, 95 countries, including 13 African countries, had ratified it ... at least, adopted it, signed it and two thirds of those have ratified it.

The urgency for us to do this ... is to adopt it ... is to actually ratify it ... is because as a member of the G20 and the inclusive framework on Beps, we have an international obligation to do this, and there is a peer review mechanism being conducted by other member countries and we could earn negative points were we not to adopt it. Mercifully, our committee has adopted it.

Then there is the Kuwait-South African government protocol. This addresses the change from secondary tax on companies to dividend withholding tax. This treaty was signed in 2006. I think I’ll read this because it’s quite complex and I don’t want to get it wrong. So I’ll read it as we adopted it.

The protocol is aimed at updating the existing South Africa- Kuwait tax treaty and enabling South Africa to withhold dividend tax in respect of dividends paid by South African companies to Kuwaiti shareholders, so limiting the loss of revenue to the fiscus. So, here again, it’s a loss of a fiscus to our fiscus and we need to stop that. So, all we are doing is updating the agreement and nudging Kuwait to do the same on their side.

In 2000, South Africa announced changes to the secondary tax on companies to a dividend tax at a shareholder level. The implementation of the dividend withholding tax was dependent on the renegotiation of 10 tax treaties that had a zero withholding tax rate on dividends, changing the zero rate tax to two withholding tax rates based in shareholding, that is from 5% to 10% tax rates. These were tax treaties ...
Australia, Cyprus, Ireland, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Malta, Oman, Seychelles, Sweden and the UK. The South African-Kuwaiti protocol is one of 10 protocols negotiated because of the change from the dividend to the dividend withholding tax.

The negotiations were concluded in 2007. South African officials had spent the past 10 years requesting Kuwait to sign the protocol. They wouldn’t. On 1 April this year ...

last year, Minister Naledi Pandor visited Kuwait and they finally did sign it. Nine protocols were negotiated as part of this project and they are in force now, except for the South Africa-Kuwaiti ... [Inaudible.] ... protocol.

The urgency regarding the entry into force of the South Africa-Kuwaiti ... [Inaudible.] ... protocol is due to the fact that on 19 January 2019, the Netherlands Supreme Court issued a judgement in favour of the taxpayer on the application of the most favoured nation clause in the South Africa-Netherlands tax treaty. On 12 June 2019, a South African court in Cape Town issued a similar judgement.

So, basically, the delay in implementing this part of the protocol has led to a substantial and continued loss to our fiscus because dividends paid to shareholders ... [Inaudible.]
... the Netherlands are not subject to dividend withholding tax. Basically, this revolves around ... Say for example a multinational company is conducting business here and in another country, the issue arises around where do you pay the tax and how can you avoid double tax, and if you do have a double tax which country gets what share of the tax. So, that’s basically around what it is processed. It’s a protocol that we have to implement and that we need to take further,

and therefore, we as a committee ask that the House do so. In fact, what happened was that, as I understand it, the DA has voted in favour and the two other parties in our committee, the EFF and FF Plus, have withheld. They reserved their right on this. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Debate concluded.

Question put. That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report of Select Committee on Finance — Multilateral Convention to implement tax treaty related measures to prevent base erosion and profit shifting, dated 21 June 2022, accordingly agreed to in accordance with Section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put. That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report of Select Committee on Finance — Protocol amending the Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the State of Kuwait for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income, dated 21 June 2022, accordingly agreed to in accordance with Section 65 of the Constitution.


(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

Vote No 8 — National Treasury — put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 18 — Health — put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.


Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you, hon Chairperson; Deputy Chairperson; the Chief Whip of the Majority; hon Parliament members; special delegates; all participants on the platform and fellow South Africans, good morning. Hon Chairperson, I am honored to Table before this House, a report on the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B8 – 2022] on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations.

The committee unanimously adopted the Report, while the Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and the Economic

Freedom Fighters rejected the Bill. Upon the tabling of the Bill by the Minister of Finance on 23 February 2022, the committee received a thorough briefing on 25 May 2022 from Financial and Fiscal Commission and Parliamentary Budget Office on the Bill.

Public hearings were conducted on 01 June 2022 wherein the Congress of South African Trade Unions, COSATU, made submission. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for an

amount of R500 million to be added to Vote 18: Health, to procure COVID-19 vaccines and an amount of R18,1 billion to be added to Vote 8: National Treasury, to purchase equity from the SA Special Risks Insurance Association, SASRIA.

Hon Chairperson, having done this process and engagement, the Committee observed some issues and made the following recommendations: That the Department of Health together with the National Treasury through the Office of the chief procurement officer, should ensure that the allocation of R500 million is spent for its intended purpose and that a proper environment is created to ensure that future funding

is utilised effectively to procure locally produced vaccines. The committee is of the view that supporting locally produced commodities including pharmaceutical products will bolster the economic recovery plan and create business, investment opportunities and jobs for South Africans; hon Chairperson and hon members the other recommendation that we have put forward is that,

The Department of Health should ensure that the local production of vaccines is expanded to other pharmaceuticals so that South Africa can become a supplier to the rest of

Africa rather than continuing to import from overseas. The Committee is of the view that this will assist to bolster the economy and the local vaccine factory which is in danger of shutting down due to a lack of orders. Parliament will continue to monitor the progress in this regard; that the Department of Health and the Congress of South African Trade Unions, COSATU, should expedite the discussions on the possibility of producing antiretroviral drugs locally. The committee supports this initiative and believes that this can go a long way in bolstering economic recovery and fighting poverty, unemployment and inequality – the triple challenges

that we are facing as a country. A progress report on this matter should be tabled in Parliament in the next budget cycle;

Hon Chairperson and hon members, we further recommended that the National Treasury should implement without delay steps to expedite the disbursement of the R18,1 billion allocated to the SA Special Risks Insurance Association, Sasria, which will help businesses affected by the July 2021 unrest. National Treasury, together with the SA Special Risks Insurance Association, Sasria, should ensure that there are clear plans to improve communication with beneficiaries, simplification of

the application process and that physical inspections for verification purposes are conducted more speedily. The SA Special Risks Insurance Association should ensure that proper systems are put in place to ensure that monies are only paid to the deserving beneficiaries and eliminate any possible corrupt elements. Parliament will continue to monitor the progress in this regard;

We further recommend that the SA Special Risks Insurance Association needs to ensure that programmes of mass mobilisation for consumer education purposes are developed and implemented to address the fact that many businesses in townships, informal traders and rural businesses are not benefitting from its services. Such mobilisation programmes are critical to create awareness and ensure that risk in business is minimised; and

Further, we recommended that the National Treasury should ensure that proper and vigorous assessment is conducted to ensure that the SA Special Risks Insurance Association’s financial sustainability remains viable, given the larger amount of claims that need to be paid emanating from the July 2021 unrest. Parliament should be provided with a

progress report on this matter in the next budget cycle and will continue to monitor the progress in this regard.

Hon Chairperson, hon members and fellow South Africans, as I conclude, I wish to thank all committee members who have committed and participated, provincial committee members who availed themselves; committee stakeholders; media; the general public as well as the committee support staff. The committee recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted without amendments. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Ke a leboga.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. As the EFF, we have consistently warned that the Parliament processes are outdated and need to be reviewed. At the moment, the parliamentary programme and calendar only serve to ... [Inaudible.] ... executive Bills and adopt reports to cover up government’s incompetence, and to adopt Bills to allocate money when government and state entities have already spent the money. We

need a process to deal with the Money Bills, so that we do not pass Bills, when money is already spent.

What is said here today is that the R7,7 billion spent on vaccines was negotiated in secret, and as Members of Parliament, we were denied access to the so-called negotiated terms of the purchase. What is also not being said here is that, even when there was the Sputnik V from Russia, and Sinovac from China, those were going to cause illness.

The incompetent Cabinet of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, misguided by the South African Health Products Regulatory Authority, Sahpra, and controlled by the white capitalist establishment was hell-bent on the Western vaccine.

What is also not being said today is that the Department of Health was incompetent and the government reactionary. As such, the EFF rejects the Second Adjustment Bill. Thank you.


Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, ...


... is this Appropriations Bill transparent and in the best interest of the country? It is a fact that one will never have an Appropriations Bill that will be approved by all political parties, not as long as the appropriations were made to be in line with the current NEC’s proposals and the current NDP under ANC rule.

This debate is repetitive to a great extent, since political parties were given the opportunity to discuss it in committees, in both the NA and the NCOP, and it has already been debated in the NA.

The question stands, does the ANC, the Minister of Finance and National Treasury implement and adjust the Appropriations Bill according to proposals made by civil society, entities and committee members, or do they only take note of the concerns, for the sake of ticking boxes?


Gedurende die publieke deelnameproses wat hierdie debat voorafgegaan het, was ’n groot persentasie van die deelnemers besorg oor die massiewe salariskomponent wat in hierdie toedelings verskans is.


The Bill makes provision for the compensation of employees, to be used within the same Vote for transfers and subsidies of severance packages, and goods and services be used within the same vote for compensation of employees.

For example, in the 2022-23 appropriated funds, the total amount appropriated is about R1 billion and R75 million, of which R179 million is appropriated towards compensation of employees and only R81 million towards goods and services. A total of R1,06 trillion was appropriated among the 41 votes.


Die regering was die outeur van die Covid-riller, wat daartoe gelei het dat miljoene werksgeleenthede in die slag gebly en staatsafhanklikheid die nuwe normaal geword het.

R44 miljard is bewillig om vir die volgende 12 maande, R350 almoese per maand aan sowat 10 miljoen persone uit te deel. Een uit 10 Suid-Afrikaners gaan elke nag honger slaap en hierdie R350 Judas-fooitjie word deur die regering uitgedeel as troos vir die toekoms wat hy hul ontneem het. Daar is gesê dat die regering staatsafhanklikheid geskep het, die

ondenkbare gedoen het, om deur honger, vrees en afhanklikheid, ’n onderdanige kieserskorps te skep, wat na die tyd, ’n beter lewe aanhou en aanhou soek, en dit weens omstandighede wat die regering met krokodiltrane geskep het en in plek hou.

Die regering moet fokus om die probleem op te los, nie om hul ideologie deur te voer en te vervul nie. Dieselfde geld vir die Presidentiële Werkskeppings-insiatief van R9 miljard. Dit word onder andere aan persone betaal om klaskamers uit te vee, geleenthede wat die jeug aan tafel laat sit, die kos ruik, maar nie kan deelneem nie, want hulle word nie vaardighede aangeleer nie, kry geen kwalifikasies nie, hul stem word gekoop deur Judas.


Chair, the report echo’s the fact that 71% of the total budget is allocated for transfers and subsidies, mainly social grants, conditional grants, transfers to public entities, university subsidies and NSFAS. The largest share of the allocation is for compensation of employees.


Ek sluit aaf, die regering veroorsaak dat werkloosheid toeneem, hou nie tred met die polulasieaanwas nie en skep

steeds nie ’n rasneutrale omgewing, wat ondersteunend tot werkskepping is nie. Die vraag is, wanneer gaan hierdie Judas aan die kaak gestel word? Ons kan hierdie nie ondersteun nie.

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. It continues to support the fight against Covid-19. It proposes an additional allocation of R500 million to the national Department of Health to pay for Covid-19 vaccines and related logistical costs.

This proposed allocation is in addition to funds already allocated to the Covid-19 vaccination programme, and the allocation for 2021-22 at R8,8 billion and total allocation from 2020-21 to 2022-23 at R15,3 billion.

The ANC appreciates the R15,3 billion, over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, which includes R11,6 billion for the procurement and distribution of vaccines and all logistical costs related thereto, R3,5 billion for service delivery costs, R250 million to the Sisonke Trial, which will be a testing vaccine booster combination.

It will evaluate immune responses to a prime boost vaccination strategy, to see whether the different vaccines strategies, as well as the time between prime and booster dosages influence immune responses.

This will further build our capacity to develop vaccines and build internal resilience, and to develop our industries, to export to the world. It gives R50 million for educational purposes, regarding the vaccines and developments of the virus.

Vaccines have proven to be highly effective, are essential in ensuring that we are all protected against the emergence of new waves, and it prevents serious illness and a high death rate.

The Bill further appropriates R18,1 billion for the state to purchase equipment from the South African Special Risk Insurance Association, Sasria.

As the ANC, we believe that this is a wise decision by government. It is not a bailout; it is an investment in a company that had, until recently, made a healthy profit every year.


The devastation to businesses from the July unrest has caused untold hardships to workers and communities who benefitted from their services. The number of claims to Sasria shot up to
20 000 in 2021-22, as compared to 3 000 in the previous year.

A total of R22 billion was needed to recapitalised the company. We support this Bill because we support sustainable livelihoods. I thank you.

Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Consideration of Votes and Schedules)

Vote No 1- The Presidency – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the Presidency, in its overview purports itself, “... At the apex of the system of government in the Republic of South Africa”. However, the Presidency cannot be an apex when the President is dictated by cadre deployment and political horse trading. This results in no fit for purpose appointments, no political will or drive for a sense of achievement – simply, no excellence because there are no consequences.

This government celebrates mediocrity, and clearly given, the state of our country rewards catastrophic incompetence. We don’t need to look far for examples of this. The poverty Cabinet has earned their name: No trains; no power; no water; no safety; and yet, no heads rolling.

The only reasoning I can fathom is that the President does not want to contribute to what is the highest unemployment rate in the world. And, why would we expect any different when the Presidency is the only Ministry without a standing committee? This is what happens when there is no oversight.

This put us in the predicament that we currently face, where the line between Mr Ramaphosa, the Head of State and the

businessman has become blurred, with the revelations coming out about his Phala Phala farm. Now, Parliament has no mechanisms to get to the bottom of it.

It is no wonder the Zondo Report made forming this committee a recommendation, but whether this report becomes a paperweight or is taken seriously by the governing party is yet to be seen. The DA objects to this vote.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Presidency Budget Vote. As the EFF, we reject the Presidency, as today, the President of South Africa, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, stands embroiled in criminal allegations levelled against him, which include allegations of burglary, theft and money laundering on his Phala Phala farm.

Mr Ramaphosa also stands accused of engaging in terrorist and vigilante methods of interrogation and defeating the ends of justice, bribing those who are victim of his criminal actions. We reject the budget of a President who engages in acts of kidnapping and bribery, in attempts to cover up large sums of money hidden on his farm.

The allegations levelled against our Head of State, show that he is of a character which undermines the rule of law and does as he wishes, without any consequence, as he believes that he is above the law. The Presidency and the ANC-led administration has since 1994 failed the people of this country.

Our unemployment rate remains high. The levels of crime in our country our just as shocking as they have made walking in the townships of this country a nightmare for all law-abiding citizens, particularly women and children.

As such, we call on Mr Cyril Ramaphosa to step aside with immediate effect, as there exists no leadership in his office. Instead, he puts the integrity of our nation at stake by remaining in office. The EFF, once again, reiterates that we reject with contempt, the Presidency Budget Vote. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: The African National Congress is informed in its response to the Vote on the Presidency not by the rumour-mongering, intrigue and skullduggery that follows the phenomena that we have to listen to on a daily basis. In the NCOP, our response to any vote of funds and whether we support it or not has to be informed by evidence of what has

been achieved against a Constitutional Mandate and facts that demonstrate this.
The work of the Presidency, as outlined in its strategic plan, annual report and annual performance plan, reflects that the constitutional mission of consolidating national unity and establishing a shared national purpose and vision, is being taken forward despite what our detractors to the national project have to say.

In spite of all the challenges the nation faces, the Presidency has remained focused and steadfast in delivering on its respective programmes within the context of driving the medium-term strategic plan. The evidence of an overarching role of co-ordinating the work of government and building a social compact among social partners, in order to achieve the national development objectives, has been brought before select committees. We therefore have the evidence of progress and challenges assessed against each budgeted programme.

The Presidency has performed its coordinating role guided by the Constitution and the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act. On an annual basis, the President accounts to the NCOP, and we have that opportunity through debate, to engage on the

work of the Presidency. Therefore, the responses we have received inform us of progress and development.

The progress that the Presidency has been able to engineer towards a relatively stable and co-operative democratic political system has minimised mobilisation along racial and tribal lines, although it exists. The Presidency has promoted co-operative governance and enhanced co-ordination and integration across government, and continues to instill a shared and common determination in all three spheres of government to fundamentally improve the lives of all South Africans. The ANC supports Vote 1 – The Presidency. Thank you.

Division called.


The Council divided.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 2 – Parliament – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson the EFF reject the Parliament Budget Vote. Section 55(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996 stipulates the role of Parliament in overseeing the activities of government. Yet, this Parliament fails to fulfil its constitutional mandate of representing the interests of our people. This Parliament also fails in its primary responsibility of holding the executive accountable, for challenges faced by our people.

Across all provinces, our people continue to face challenges in accessing basic services such as health, water, sanitation, electricity and refuse removal. The country’s roads remain death traps for thousands of our people who rely on using our roads. Every single year, taxi violence becomes a norm in this country, especially in areas such as KwaZulu-Natal. This House has also failed to amend the Constitution to allow for land expropriation without compensation. It has failed to amend the National Health Act 61 of 2003, to allow clinics to open 24 hours a day. Just to mention but a few.

As such, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for Parliament, which sits by and watches and does nothing to change the condition of our people. Chairperson, the EFF does not object to service delivery, but we object to lack of service delivery. The EFF rejects this budget. Thank you, Chair.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you hon Chairperson once more for giving me the opportunity. The Budget Vote of Parliament is about whether Parliament has the necessary financial resources, to carry out its constitutional responsibilities informed by its strategic plan, its policy priorities, and the annual performance plan. On the budget, we have stated before that the current funding arrangement is unsustainable. We have been seized with this debate since 2011 and 11 years on, we are reaching the moment where a fundamental change in this regard has to happen.

Chairperson firstly, Parliament must be part of determining its own budget, both content and form. It must be able to financially determine its internal priorities and alignment of its needs. This process must be one in which the budget of Parliament is internally constructed and cost hinged, around the strategic plan of Parliament and the policy priorities that it has set for the sixth term. In addition, hon

Chairperson, the constitutional responsibilities that it has to perform must be factored into the draft budget.

Secondly Chair, the current issues that create the shortfall in the budget of Parliament must be addressed before the 2023 February Budget. Therefore, it remains in the line items in the budget of Parliament to which Parliament has no say over, and is the cause of the shortfall in the budget of Parliament. These are items that have been parked in the budget of Parliament instead of being located where they belong.

Hon Chairperson and members, this ... [Inaudible] ...travel entitlement of former members of the executive, loss of office gratuities and political parties’ allowances. Hon Chair, hon members and fellow South Africans, the structure and composition of the Parliament ... [Interjections] ... and the budget reductions all require major interventions between now and the 2023 budget. The Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management and Parliament must be seized with these matters going forward.

As I conclude Chairperson, as the ANC we are pushing for a resolution of these matters with the National Treasury, to enable Parliament to have a budget that addresses the actual

needs of the institution, members, and the people of South Africa. As the ANC, we support Vote 2 - Parliament. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs –


Declarations of vote:

Mr I M SILEKU: Chairperson, the Auditor-General and Ratings Africa confirm that local governments in South Africa are, with the exception of those in the Western Cape and a few others, systemically and irrevocably failed.

In the Free State, there is the real fear that many municipalities are bankrupts and that they do not have sufficient income to pay their bills. They are forced to use equitable shares to pay salaries. Hence they fail to provide basic services and ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have become inaudible, hon Sileku. Move closer to your mic and speak into it. I will ask

the Table staff to assist you as far as they can. Please proceed, hon Sileku.

Mr I SILEKU: They fail to provide basic services to the ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You seem to be having a problem, hon Sileku. We will try one more time. Please proceed.

No, you are inaudible. We will come back to you. Let’s move

on to the next speaker.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We reject the budget of a department that has, for more than two decades, failed ... [Inaudible.] ... intervention of provincial governments in municipalities.

Under the leadership of this department, local government has collapsed, with only 8% of municipalities deemed to be functional.

With each passing year, municipalities have descended deeper and deeper into a state of chaos. If we do not change the

Division of Revenue Bill, our municipalities will never be financially sound. Instead, we will continue to see hopeless disillusionment and frustration marked by service delivery protests, violent crimes and corruption. Instead of solving problems related to poverty, eliminating inequality, and reshaping our society, our municipalities do not have capacity, resulting in everything being outsourced through tenders.

The ANC has failed to take a firm political decision to impose strict financial controls, quality management and good governance.

The EFF government in municipalities is the only government that will benefit our people, especially the previously disadvantaged groups. The EFF will expose corruption and maladministration. It is only the EFF that has a believable and practical plan on jobs, land and capable municipalities. The EFF does not support this ... [Inaudible.] Thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Chairperson, the IFP has been vocal that constitutional institutions created to strengthen democracy must serve the people of South Africa. These institutions cannot be another forum to line the pockets of officials. We

need to physically see results and their projects must benefit the people of South Africa.

The Commission for The Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, the CRL Rights Commission, has a critical duty in terms of our Constitution. It is undeniable that our beloved country is facing political and social turmoil and the CRL Rights Commission’s mandate to promote unity within cultural, religious and linguistic communities is essential. Now, more than ever before, it is critical that the commission must function optimally. Its constitutional mandate cannot be compromised.

The IFP therefore remains very concerned that 65% of the commission’s budget is allocated to internal administration, instead of service delivery. How is it that close to
R30,5 million of the commission’s budget of R47 million is spent on internal administrative overheads? We cannot accept this.

Furthermore, the IFP remains highly concerned that, despite our alarming unemployment rate, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs seems to have no ambition

to ensure that the Community Work Programme in fact fulfils its mandate.

We remain highly concerned that, despite this programmed budgetary allocation, this programme does not serve rural communities. Again, the department is only paying lip service to the people of South Africa.

The time for lofty promises is over. We need to see delivery. We need to physically see the commitment in action. We cannot continue to tolerate any excuses. Thank you.


Mnr S F Du TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, ’n boom word geken aan sy vrugte. Watter vrugte dra Minister Dlamini-Zuma se boom genaamd, Plaaslike Regering?


The purpose of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is to improve co-operative governance across the three spheres of government, in partnership with institutions of traditional leadership, to ensure that provinces and municipalities carry out their service delivery and development functions effectively.


I put it to you, Chair, that this department has failed dismally in this purpose. The tree is known by its fruit! The latest Auditor-General report indicates that 64% of the
municipalities incurred irregular expenditure to the tune of

R20,45 billion.


In effect, 28% of municipalities will, in the near future, not be able to operate as a result of lack of funds and poor


The overall decay of this department and the majority of

municipalities can literally be smelled from afar.



Die hoofoorsaak van hierdie verval is politieke onstabiliteit,

korrupsie, swak bestuur en kader-ontplooïng.


Aanvanklik was munisipaliteite ge-algamigeer, en dit was nie suksesvol nie, maar het eerder tot verdere agteruitgang gelei.

Daarna is daar op Artikel 139 gesteun, waar munisipaliteite onder administrasie geplaas is, waarvan daar nie ’n enkele suksesverhaal was nie.


Nou druk die Minister vir die sogenaamde distriks ontwikkelings model.

The district development model. This is the final attempt at

centralising instead of decentralising municipalities: an initiative to get greater control of the little funds that are
left – in the name of better governance.


During the State Capacity presentation on 6 May 2022 it was mentioned that lots of plans have been produced but without
sufficient planning having happened behind them.

The tax base in municipal areas will get smaller and smaller. Less funds will be available to subsidise indigent individuals, since government and minister Dlamini-Zuma do not have the political will to ensure that consequence management is implemented and the rights of the people, the taxpayers, are protected.


Geen nugter-denkende persoon sal in enige dorp belê as die infrastruktuur besig is om in duie te stort en openbare onrus

asook afwesige basiese dienste kenmerkend in sulke areas is nie.

Dit is tyd dat die boom verwyder word. Verandering moet dringend plaasvind. Ons kan hierdie níé ondersteun nie.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Chairperson, the ANC fully supports the Budget Vote of this department.

We support it because we believe that this department has the daunting challenge of ensuring that it fixes the municipalities. It is for that reason that we say that we support this department because the challenges that lie ahead are quite enormous.

The ANC is under no illusions that the task that is performed by the department to ensure that basic services are delivered to the people, that there is optimum good governance, and that there is safety within the communities for our people ...

Therefore, with the budget and what is encapsulated in the annual performance plan, it is what the department must stick to. It is what the department must resolve to ensure that, at the end of the day, our municipalities are fully functional

and all the problems, whether political problems within the councils, that councils are not functioning effectively, whether these are governance and administration problems, whether these are financial problems within our municipalities or even basic services, that problems are resolved.

Therefore, through our oversight function, we will ensure that we hold the department accountable and it reports accordingly. We have said that the situation at municipal level is not okay. It must be fixed. We are determined, through the leadership of Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, to ensure that all of these particular issues are attended to.

As I indicated, it is precisely for that reason that we must support the department. We must ensure that it has the necessary capacity, especially the financial capacity, to deliver on its mandate.

Through our work and through the partnership that we have, and through our oversight role, we believe that the department can go a long way in terms of accomplishing those developmental objectives of local government.

To stand here and have some brinkmanship and ... that will not help, because the biggest challenge is to fix rather than lament, as most of the political parties are doing here.

On that score, as the ANC, we support the work that the department is doing at municipal level to fix our own municipalities. Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, may I read the DA’s declaration of

vote on behalf of hon Sileku?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, we can return to hon Sileku. You may proceed.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you. Chair, the Auditor-General and Ratings Africa confirm that local governments in South Africa are, with the exception of those in the Western Cape and a few others, systemically and irrevocably failed.

In the Free State there is the real fear that many municipalities are bankrupt and that they do not have sufficient income to pay their bills. They are forced to use their equitable shares to pay salaries. Hence, they fail to

provide basic services to the people and this at the core of the rolling mass protest action in South Africa.

The same scenario is playing out in the municipalities in the North West and other provinces governed by the ANC. Afrikaans:
Die nasionale en meeste van die provinsiale regerings het munisipaliteite nogeens gefaal.


The Department of Co-operative Governance claims that they can restore effective and sustainable municipalities, but years of gradual municipal implosions prove this to be a fake message.

The Zondo report tells us exactly how national state capture filtered down to the municipal level, and still the Department of Co-operative Governance is not on a path to restore the integrity and functionality of local governments.

The ANC did not change its ways, and not even the Zondo report can stop thugs and cadres from exploiting municipalities.

The ANC is making a mockery of the President’s assurances of

corruption-free government. A few months after the municipal

elections, the ANC and its political allies are already ruining the municipalities of which they gained control in 2021. This is visible in Theewaterskloof in the Western Cape, where they suspended five brilliant administrators, and replaced them with incompetent cadres. They allegedly spent R3 million of security guards without providing proof that their lives were in danger. They allegedly manipulated a tender to benefit a former ANC compatriot, Mr Marius Fransman.

The ANC promised change and clean governance, but they are looking at Theewaterskloof and others with folded arms.

The Department of Co-operative Governance cannot save the local governments because the cadres are still calling the shots.

The DA therefore cannot support Vote 3, as it is irrelevant, bereft of plan, and not worth the paper on which it is written. Thank you.

Division called.

The Council divided.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 4 - Government Communication and Information Systems - put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M NHANHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The DA has been calling for a portfolio and select committees that will perform oversight duties on the Presidency. Resistance to this sensible course has led to GCIS and its entities trying every trick possible to avoid appearing before committees of Parliament, under the pretext that, the Presidency, and by extension, its entities, are not accountable to Parliament.
About two months ago, the Select Committee on Communications and Digital Technologies, experienced this resistance first hand, from Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA.

The select committee asked the MDDA for briefing on matters involving community radio station. I am told that, MDDA refused to appear before the committee. They argued that they

were not part of the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, and therefore, not accountable to the select committee. Some of us were not surprised by this bizarre behaviour, because all is not well at the MDDA. Corruption, maladministration, nepotism and staff victimisation, are a norm at the MDDA.

The MDDA is today an employment agency for politician’s children. People get employed despite the fact that, they either don’t qualify or meet job requirements. Staff members lives in constant fear of victimisation, and whistleblowers get shown the door. Good people are harassed at the MDDA. It is perfectly acceptable at the MDDA for a board member to be also a Managing-Director of a community radio station, despite a legal opinion sought by the board Chairperson advising to the contrary.

The board in GCIS are sitting on a carving general report, with damning filings against their findings in senior management at MDDA. It is a feeding friends at MDDA. The board is supposed to hold four ordinary and eight actual board meetings in a year, but they go far beyond that, in order for them to claim more board fees. The CEO, who by the way was a person of interest in the Zondo Commission, as an enabler of

state capture, unliterary converted a fixed five-year-term of the CFO, to a permanent appointment in contravention of regulations governing the public sector.

The GCIS must go back to the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, so that road entities such as the MDDA, can be held accountable and be exposed for what they are worth. The DA in good conscience cannot support this budget. Thank you.

Mr Z MKIVA: Good morning, Chairperson, and good morning members, I greet you this morning. Hon Chair, the 1994 democratic breakthrough, not only symbolised the abolition of the racist apartheid system, which thrived on the exploitation and discrimination by one race against all others, it also symbolised a new hope wherein all the people of this country could co-exist and equally enjoy the hard-earned fruits their labour in what the late, Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, termed the rainbow nation of God.

However, the socioeconomic challenges confronting our country undermine our young democracy. Dehumanising poverty and unemployment, crime, gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, and continuous acts of racism which we have been witnessing,

particularly, in schools and universities across the country, such as the one that occurred recently at the University of Stellenbosch, which gives a clear indication that, our democracy is under a serious threat, Chairperson. Therefore, this gives greater meaning to the mammoth task of Government Communication Information System, GCIS, of providing a comprehensive communication service to the nation.

Through GCIS, government is able to facilitate the involvement of all citizens in the governance, reconstruction, development, nation-building, and reconciliation of our country. Hon members, through its allocated funding of
R719,9 million for the 2022-23 financial year, I would like to urge the department to continue leading the nation in the battle against COVID-19, driving the vaccination rollout programme and other health programmes, while also sharing information about various opportunities, especially for the youth, women and persons with disabilities.

Information must be packaged in a way that reaches even the deep rural areas of our land. Social cohesion initiatives and education that is geared towards ending GBV and crime in general, as well as protecting state property that are essentially assets of the South African citizenry, is also

vital to take the country forward. In supporting this Budget Vote, I wish to welcome, on behalf of all language communities in South Africa, the allocation of R32,3 million to the MDDA, as it is going to help the entity carry out its mandate of promoting new indigenous languages and contributing to community development and the alleviation of poverty and inequality.

The MDDA should continue to play a critical role in ensuring a flourishing, sustainable and robust local media sector, a sector which supports nation-building and defends and strengthens our democracy, social cohesion, as well as good governance. I thank you, Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

[Take in from Minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put


Declarations of Vote:

Ms C VISSER: Chairperson, an accountable budget should speak to the services of the department that the department is obliged to deliver and immeasurable scale of satisfaction of those utilising their services. The Department of Home Affairs is failing citizens with every service they are constitutionally obliged to deliver. Referring to hell affairs, to any recorded service needed from this department. In fact, it seems that the department is even incapacitated to restore efficiency considering the period of regression and collapse.

Fraud and corruption became endemic and nurtured within a system preventing sound financial management and the regression of service delivery to South Africans. South Africans are therefore subjected to the meltdown of ANC governance within the Department of Home Affairs. The DA objects to this vote. I thank you.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed Budget Vote for the Department of Home Affairs. This department has failed at the regulation of immigration, registration of births, marriages and deaths, the issuing of

identity documents and passports. This department stand as one of the most dysfunctional departments in government and its known for nothing but the disheartening excuses; with the majority of offices across offices suffering from chronic problem of systems offline almost all the time.

The Johannesburg and King William’s Town offices are forever offline. When offices are operational, the service received from staff is often appalling. In the past five years, committee budgets and recommendation reports have all lamented the symbolic state of Home Affairs. Yet to date, none of these issues have been resolved. There exists lack of leadership at Home Affairs and Mr Motsoaledi has no capacity to lead the Department of Home Affairs.

As the EFF we therefore reject the budget of the department which offers poor services, lack of information, lack of guidance, unprofessional staff and never ending technical problems. We reject this department which deprives our people of access to basic services. Chairperson, we reject the budget of hopeless state department which year after year remains the laughing stock of civil servants. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms A D MALEKA: Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 5 of Department of Home Affairs. All South Africans are dependent on the department of home affairs because of its sole mandate to secure and manage official identity and status. The Department of Home Affairs services are divided into two broad categories, civil services and immigration services. The Department of Home Affairs is mandated to manage citizenship and civic status, international migration, refuge protection and the pro-relation register.

It is a fact that South Africa has a problem of porous borders and the fragmented border management approach has not assisted. Porous borders can lead to problems of trafficking of women and children, smuggling of drugs, stolen goods, counterfeit goods and contraband. Counterfeit and illicit goods trade cause an immeasurable harm to our already strained economy and the local economy suffers the most. The consequence of porous borders is the undermining of securing of the nation and its economic development. No economy can flourish in an insecure environment.

In 2013, Cabinet agreed on the establishment of the Border Management Authority, BMA. Much progress has been made on the implementation of the Border Management Authority. The BMA

model will be implemented at land and sea port of entry. The BMA will create a platform for proper co-ordination between different government departments. We welcome the department’s fight against corruption through the counter corruption branch and encourage it not to relax its effort in ensuring a safer country.

The department set up a series of roadblocks in an effort to address the challenge of undocumented immigrants near the Beitbridge Border Post. This is also welcomed. The ANC government remains unequivocal on that everyone who enters the country lawfully is welcome. Everyone, citizens and foreign nationals that are in the country must adhere to the laws of this country. South Africa is a legitimate and sovereign state. The ANC supports Budget Vote No 5. Thank you, Chairperson.

Division called.

The Council divided.


Mr M Z SEKOATI: Chairperson, Sekoati voted in favour. I was offline.



go bona morena.


Where were you?

Mr M Z SEKOATI: I was offline, Chair.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, on point of order. I feel for the colleagues who are offline. But if they are offline during the time of the vote then they cannot be included Chair. I am sorry for them that they were offline but if they are offline then unfortunately it is just like being outside of the House.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It was just before we moved on, but the point that you are raising is noted.
Voting continues

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, it is the hon Motsamai I just wanted to say that I have raised my hand for ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: For what Motsamai?

Mr K MOTSAMAI: For voting against.



Motsamai, ya go sia terena.


Remain vigilant all the time.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, before we continue, I just want to make a correction. In the beginning you said that if a delegate is disconnected during the vote, then his vote should be ascertained and counted. I just want to correct what hon Brauteseth was saying when he said the vote shouldn’t be taken into account. It was part of the first announcements that you made. I just want to correct it. I don’t want you to respond, just put it in record.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Noted.

Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – put. Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you, Chairperson. The Economic Freedom Fighters rejects the budget for International Relations and Co-operation. The Department of International Relations and Co-operation should be setting strategic course for a country to grow the economy, but it is not in this case. In light of the present situation of deep poverty, unemployment and inequality in the country aggravated by the coronavirus disease, Covid-19, pandemic the department has no economic diplomacy initiatives that they can share to the nation. Our National Development Plan is not linked to the aspiration of the African continent. Hence the economic diplomacy could not be used to promote the country as the trade and investment destination in attracting foreign investment and also boost the tourism sector.

The international responsibility of any International Relations Department is to build the country’s role to be influential partner in the continent and the global actor. It is established, Chairperson, that towards the end of the century Africa’s ... [Inaudible.] ... population would have reached 1,3 billion which is double the population of Europe and the department does not have a clear programme or plan for the youth in the economic activities. With that said, Chairperson, the EFF rejects this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I am speaking from a phone so please excuse me at times. Our point of departure is that foreign policy is an advancement of domestic interests. Our agenda of building a better Africa and a better world is intended to ensure that development takes place in a peaceful environment, and that development should appreciate the imbalances of different countries of the world. Our country and the world are emerging from a period of global lockdown as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic which disrupted economic activities globally. This means that our country and the world are in a process of the reconstruction and recovery of the economy.

For our part as South Africa, we have agreed on the government programme of the Economic Recovery and Reconstruction Plan, ERRP. The successful implementation of the ERRP requires that our government should develop means and ways to support both domestic and foreign investment in our economy. It also means that the South African businesses should take advantage of the continental integration initiatives such as the Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement to expand our businesses into the continent. The Department of International Relations and Co-operation, therefore, becomes critical in facilitating both domestic and foreign investment. In this regard, we commend the department for prioritising, among other things, economic diplomacy. Our diplomat posted abroad should ensure that economic diplomacy becomes a major area of performance and as Parliament we will ensure that reports on economic diplomacy are presented before us.

We also wish to urge various players in the diplomatic field, especially in our provinces and municipalities to communicate a coherent message of our country abroad. We are one country
... [Inaudible.] ... We commend the department for having provided diplomatic support to South Africans abroad in the face of the global pandemic and the lockdowns in many countries of the world, and we urge the department to continue

supporting our patriots abroad as well as the critical role played by the department of facilitating investment both in our country and by our businesses abroad. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you, Chairperson.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 7 – National School of Government – put.

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you, Chairperson. The development of skills, knowledge, and capabilities is essential in the project of building a developmental state that is able to provide direction to the market players and all sections of society towards the resolution of the triple challenges of poverty, unemployment, and inequalities. The National School of Government, Chair, serves as an institution that is at the centre of the professional training and development of these human resources. The training and development programmes of the National School of Governance not only place at the centre the acquiring of high technical skills for managers, but it is also characterised by inculcating the ethos such as the Batho Pele principles which guides public servants to offer high quality services to communities.


The creation of senior managers in government is one of the qualitative outcomes of the curriculum, this will be done by: One, creating an appreciation of the public service as a special career, deepen understanding of the mind-set, attributes, values, skills, and knowledge required to serve in the senior management service, and complete the public service recruitment process by ensuring that entrants to senior management service have appropriate competencies for their jobs.

The qualitative impact on local government should be another strategic focus, this is off paramount importance because the sphere that is at the coalface of service delivery is not only undersiege from the lack of human resources but also from compromised supply chain management systems which causes the wastage of financial resources, the rolling out of supply chain management programmes is a decisive intervention. The development of human resources and proper systems should also place innovation at the centre of the public service. This will build competitive advantage in the state and will allow it to provide direction to the markets.

In closing, Chair, we commend the National School of Government for their partnership with other institutions of knowledge production. This will develop its institutional capacity for the transfer of tacit and codified knowledge and will improve its innovative capacities. The ANC, Chair, supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, Deputy Chair. The Treasury Department’s Budget Vote cannot be supported. The country’s debt burden is currently unmanageable and this is clearly demonstrated by the debts service costs. They now for the years of state capture crowding out the ability to meet the ever going needs of the population that have become victims of poor government policy and failed execution of government projects.

Warnings to focus all possible windfalls into reducing debts fall on deaf ears as the executive demands political motivated expenditure to cover vanity projects and hide failure.


Yet, Treasury has admitted their inability to find a solution to the failing and the failure of the local sphere of government. The vote purpose is that Treasury exist to: support economic growth and development, good governance, social progress and rising living standards. This is not being achieved. The inflation cycle has turned against us and the cost of living is skyrocketing in the midst of terrifying unemployment. Yet, the governance particularly at local government level remains poor.

There is no solution to strangling Eskom and water board legacy debt. There is too much corruption. There are no solutions. And each time we start to scratch we find a new concern in the Treasury’s entities. Following the pension fund investigation by the Public Protector, colloquially known as the Mostert report, we have a new case now bought against the Financial Conduct Authority, FCA, on pension matters,

The Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, is in dire straight and the Land Bank even worse and have just becoming embroiled in investigations into heavy handed repossessions of farms where they claimed to be that they are there to help farmers.


The Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC, has managed to create an expansive compliance programme ... [Inaudible.] ... opening space for the fly-by-nights and not picking up any of the state capture transactions erroneous payments to NSFAS students or large cash transactions related to Ankole cattle sales. Raiders hangs over us if we do not take serious actions by the end of October. Uber managed to make headlines for all the wrong reasons and the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, is also in the news for suspending its Chief Operating Officer without giving us reasons, one of the control vast investments on behalf of government employees and the unemployed to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF,

All in all, Treasury, you need to start cleaning up your own room. The most concerning thing to come out of Treasury though is the back track on the zero base budgeting project claiming that it is too tedious and difficult to task, thus allowing the vanity projects of the departments to continue. When we should be watching every cent that we spend, Treasury has ducked out of its best chance to save South Africa over the long term to a proper reset. There are indeed many bright minds in Treasury and they must be acknowledged for the hard

work that they do. They must try to do more. The DA therefore, object to this vote.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Thank you, Chairperson, colleagues and friends. Firstly, I’m not sure that what Mr Ryder says does not actually deal with National Treasury responsibilities. It’s not the Presidency or the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency. It’s actually a specific department. So, for example, he talks about National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, that falls under tertiary education. He talks about various other things like, for example, the debt burden and so on.

National Treasury’s responsibility is to manage it. Yes, it’s true. But, it is many, many other departments, in fact, all the departments at all three spheres and levels of government particularly the provincial and national which has to actually manage the economy better. Some of the issues are beyond our control. No matter how well you can have apartheid governing, a country like ours is a developing country. We had to struggle like other developing countries that we have, not least of course developed countries, but ours, as a country itself against Covid.

I mean, that’s not something that the National Treasury has created. Against the Ukraine war, the background of that is not what National Treasury has created. These are international circumstances as indeed the economic down turn that follows in its stead, Chairperson.

So, on the broader issue that he raises, they deal more with the inadequacies of other departments but collectively government as a whole. And National Treasury is not some big brother so to speak and I use the gendered word in a particular sense because of power relations between men and women. It’s actually merely one department of government, that has to manage a budget of R30,9 billion, much of which involves transfers to the provincial and local sphere.

Really what we should look at, and he is right, that the institutes that fall or the public entities that fall under Treasury. The Financial Conduct Authority, FCA, the Land Bank and the PIC. We had the PIC before us, Chairperson, only two weeks ago. They explained the progress that is being made. The explained the progress that has been made and as far as that all parties agreed, at least at the meeting it seems like that, to the fact that they have been making progress. Except that on the one matter that he raises that too is being

addressed, there is an enquiry taking place, there are legal and other processes to address it. The PIC has moved from a space where it was extremely challenged to progress. And it has done so. In fact, it came to the committee last week and said that most if not all of the party recommendations that the PIC had to effect, have indeed been effected. No party challenged that. There is no evidence to contrary. So, there are making progress. But yes, they should be making greater progress.

Finally, on Zero based budgeting. There are strengths and weaknesses to it. It is not a panacea. Parliament itself ultimately must account for the failure of any of these things that need to happen. Our committee has to actually exercise greater oversight. So, the problem isn’t just that of Treasury, it’s our committee and Parliament as a whole.

There are other committees that are affected. Many of the institutes in Parliament do not in fact fall under the Portfolio of Treasury. So, can’t we all get together and be more effective in our oversight. That’s a lesson that would lead to sovereignty, not ... [Inaudible]... Dennis Ryder in much of what he says. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 9 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put

Declaration of vote:

Mr I NTSUBE: We rise on behalf of the ANC to support the policy vote. Planning, Monitoring, and Evaluation in our state were given impetus by the National Development Plan, these were identified as pillars which will assist the state in tracking and assessing the impact of policy interventions and programs.

In the process of monitoring and evaluation we collect data that helps in the shaping of strategic planning, design and implementation of programmes and projects, and the allocation of resources in a poignant manner. There is a need for government to assess its progress in the medium-term and ensure that departments are aligned to their strategic and annual performance plans. Furthermore, within the framework of cooperative government monitoring and evaluation are critical oversight tools used by national government to assess the impact of provincial and local spheres of government in fulfilling their constitutional responsibilities.


The development of a policy framework on integrated planning to achieve the institutionalisation and harmonisation of the planning system aimed towards improving results is a welcomed development. The finalisation of the Integrated Planning Framework Bill is a priority, as this bill provides for, amongst other things: The establishment of an institutional framework for a new predictable planning paradigm and discipline within and across all spheres of government.
Support effective monitoring and evaluation of government programmes aimed at improved service delivery and positive impact on society and provide for the continued existence of the National Planning Commission.

We look forward to the department releasing a mid-term review report of government performance in the medium-term strategic framework 2019 to 2024 which will help us to bolster the evidence that is generated though the monthly, bi-annual, mid- term and sectoral reviews with rapid evaluations of key government programmes.

It is also critically important for the department to codify the experiences of government in the course of implementation, this can be done through investment in research and

digitisation, and this must also be stored in a large scale tertiary hub that links up with research outputs of various sectors.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the ANC support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 10 – Public Enterprises – put

Declarations of vote:

Mr M NHANHA: Deputy Chairperson, where are we now?


[Interjections.] ...

Mr M NHANHA: Where are we?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nhanha, you also cannot speak to me as if I am a child. Ask me properly. We are at Vote 10 — Public Enterprises. I believe that you want to make a declaration of vote?

Mr M NHANHA: Yes, hon Deputy Chair.


Mr M NHANHA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, you can’t do the same thing and expect different results. The existence of the Department of Public Enterprises is an embarrassment to our country. It boggles one’s mind as to how the governing party sees hope and something new that this department will do. We all know the mandate of this department, yet all and I literally mean all state-owned entities under its wings are a failed cause. South African Express went under the hammer, South African Airways limps from one turn-around strategy to another government bail-out, the once world renowned Denel has lost valuable intellectual property and skilled personnel for greener pastures because the company is not paying their salaries, Alexcor senior executives and board members are accused of theft and under-pricing of diamonds mined at Alexander Bay, the Richtersveld communities is yet to see the benefits emanating from the diamonds, yet a handful is living large at the expense of the poor, the Eskom story — I will not even get into it.

State capture aside, the Department of Public Enterprises must shoulder the responsibility for the state of our SOEs. The DA does not support this budget. Thank you.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Chair, in response to the debate on the Public Enterprises, hon Minister said, and I quote, “To fix a broken institution takes time, courage and bold leadership.” Deputy Chair, with regards to time, I think it is safe to say that the people of South Africa have given this department more than enough time and patience, not to mention money, to fix this broken institution. But as the result of lack of courage and bold leadership, that time was wasted and the patience has run out.

Secondly, the hon Minister must admit that it was the ANC-led government that broke this institution and not the past or the opposition or whatever excuses they come up with. The fact remains, it is the ANC-led government that threw this department and institution into the ground. You cannot be shocked at no one as ... [Inaudible.]

Deputy Chair, as we sit here today we are again suffering under loadshedding of the years of promises that this department will do anything in this power to resolve the issue

at Eskom to ensure the supply of sustainable power, and the same promises were made with DENEL and Eskom and so forth. Hon Deputy Chair, the people of South Africa they aren’t fools; they don’t believe in empty promises anymore. They and we, as the opposition, know that this budget will not be implemented in the best interest of South Africans as the ANC has shown us over the years. The Freedom Front Plus will not be accepting this budget. Thank you.

Mr A ARNOLDS: Deputy Chairperson, we rejected this Budget Vote when it was debated earlier, and we feel that we need to reemphasise our position on the uselessness of the Minister and his department. As the EFF we note the directionless leadership of the Minister and his department and all state- owned entities which are failing due to political interference, corruption and mismanagement, to name just a few.

Instead of ensuring that SOEs are well-run, effective and efficient, the Minister’s only mission is to privatise SOEs to benefit white-owned companies. Mr Jamnadas has destroyed Eskom beyond its initial state of being an Eskom which provides energy to our people. One of our most prised SOEs has become the joke of the country with blackouts every other day.

Mr Gordhan has single-handedly destroyed the South African Airways and has even gone so far as to sell it to people that are not known, not even to Treasury. DENEL too has been stripped to the bone under the nose of Mr Jamnadas. Under the leadership of this department our country’s state-owned entities have gone down the drain and are instead used for cadre deployment and jobs for pals. We have witnessed SOEs in the hands of an incompetent government of loadshedding and mismanagement. The promise of job creation by the government to SOEs has resulted in massive job losses and retrenchments. As the Economic Freedom Fighters, we condemn the incompetence and corruption of the ANC and we reject this Vote. Thank you.

Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports Policy Vote 10 of the Department of Public Enterprises. This policy Vote is fundamental to enabling the state-owned enterprises to fully realise the priority interventions of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan. For instance, this policy Vote seeks to support the restructuring of Denel’s core capabilities from five divisions into three which are engineering, manufacturing, and maintenance, in line with the priority intervention of revitalising the defence and aerospace industry as the catalyst to economic growth and industrialisation through localisation. The policy Vote will

definitely crowd in the critical skills that Denel requires to jumpstart its restructured business model and subsequently execute the contracts worth R11 billion currently at its disposal.

The work of the Presidential SOE Council is dependent on the success of this policy Vote. As of now, the Presidential SOE Council has made valuable recommendations that have helped greatly to restore the SOEs to health, as well as make them more efficient, competitive, accountable, and sustainable. For example, Transnet has developed strategic partnerships with private sector players to limit the multiple inefficiencies that constrain economic activity in the ports and rail networks. Moreover, these strategic partnerships will enhance private sector investments in infrastructure to augment capacity, equipment, and productivity in the ports and rail networks. More importantly, progress is already underway as most of these strategic partnerships are set to be concluded before the end of the 2022-23 financial year, which is a good sign that establishing public private partnerships, as pronounced in the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, is not elusive.

Furthermore, this policy Vote will beyond doubt support the restructuring of the South African Airways to ensure that the national airline continues to explore additional services and lucrative markets for sustainability in line with the ANC-led government’s goal of having a financially viable national airline that can be profitable.

In conclusion, Deputy Chairperson, the select committee is committed to ensuring that the strategic partnerships forged between the SOEs and the private sector do not leave the labour unions behind because such partnerships are intended to create more jobs rather than automate work. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson, the African National Congress supports this Vote. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

[Take in from minutes]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 11 - Public Service and Administration - put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Hon Chairperson, the EFF reject the Public Administration proposed budget. We reject this propose budget for the same reason we rejected the previous proposed budget.

Even if the ruling party refuses to admit it, the EFF was correct about the current state of collapse and incapacity of public service.

The EFF has always told you that South Africa is a developed state yet we currently stand as an incapable state which does not have the capacity to respond to a pandemic like the Covid-
19 pandemic or floods in KwaZulu-Natal.

The state has no capacity to rebuild roads in eThekwini municipality, to deliver water to the affected areas such in Umlazi, Phoenix, Pinetown and other affected areas. And because of the incapacity of the state, our people in KwaZulu- Natal are still waiting for water, electricity, sanitation and health care services weeks after the floods.

For the public service to be of service to its citizens, it must have its own capacity and this is going to start by building state capacity and in sourcing of workers. We must train public servants to be dependable and the National School of Government must build its own capacity.

Unless we recognise public service according to this implementable proposal, the EFF will not support this budget. Thank you very much Chair.

Mr K M MMOEIMANG: Thank you Chair. Allow me on behalf of the ANC to throw our weight behind the support of the Public service and Administration Vote 11 because of the difficult role that the department is playing in terms of establishing norms and standards in public service across all spheres.

Secondly, we need to ensure that the department fast tracks the finalization of the Public Service and Administration Amendment Bill as well as the Public Service Amendment Bill.

The department also has to ensure that the regulations at both provincial and local government level are adhered to. We also support this this vote because of the commitment it has around lifestyle audits in the public service, particularly to ensure

that these lifestyle audits ensure transparency and curb the plight of corruption. We welcome the implementation of this in our provincial governments. However, we also note that other provinces are a bit slow in terms of the movement of this aspect.

Hon House Chair, we are working tirelessly to fight corruption in local and provincial government and hope that all governments and municipalities will cooperate. The department should ensure uniformity in terms of implementation of lifestyle audits in the public service across all arms of state.

More so, local government is the sphere closest to our citizens and corrupt practices in the public service prohibits effective service delivery which South Africans need such as access to water, electricity and proper sanitation.

During the NCOP provincial week, provinces illustrated their intentions to ensure that there is better service delivery.

We also commend the department for launching the Public Service Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Units to improve ethical and anti-

corruption policy and to strengthen ethical infrastructure, discipline management and synchronization of all three levels of public administration.

Hon Deputy Chair, corruption and poor performance prohibits South African’s access to better service and the ANC government is fighting corruption in all its manifestations. We therefore support vote 11.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 12 - Public Service Commission - put

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote NO 13 - Public Works and Infrastructure – put

Declarations of vote:

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Chair public works infrastructure has become none for the bottomless where money goes to disappear for the past decade and it is highly unlikely that the so called new anti-corruption forum will bring about any

changes because funds being spend on this forum could have been spend on infrastructure to better the lives of South Africans but instead this department has fallen to a point where by corruption takes priority over the needs of South Africans.

Deputy Chair, during the budget vote debates, countless examples of this department’s failures were voiced only to be dismissed by the Minister who rather shifted the blame to everyone and everything rather than taking the responsibility and admitting the failures of the department. Surely not a prime example of leadership.

Deputy Chair, as I’ve said before, how can we in good conscience support this budget for new infrastructure and so forth when the current infrastructure cannot even be maintained? No budget will solve the incompetence of this department, more money on the problem won’t solve it. It will only be to more corruption. Therefore, the FF Plus rejects this budget. Thank you.

Ms M L MOSHODI: The ANC supports the Appropriation Bill for Public Works & Infrastructure Vote 13. This vote is occurring

at a critical conjuncture when the country requires reversing the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment.

The department and its entities have a critical developmental role to play in ensuring local development in provinces and cities. The department is playing a critical role through making land available for the housing of recent victims of the floods in KZN and parts of the Eastern Cape. It is part of the technical teams which are involved in assessing the rebuilding of affected infrastructure in those provinces. The economy of those affected areas and provinces must be restored.

Hon Chairperson, Infrastructure South Africa will engage in a number strategic infrastructure projects such as the development of small harbours in provinces on the coast. This project created direct and indirect jobs and will contribute to the livelihood of small fishing communities. Recently these small fishing communities were granted licences for fishing which ensures the economic viability of such communities. Over the next three years, the department will ensure the building of bridges in different provinces which will improve the lives of ordinary South Africans and contribute to economic development.

Hon Chairperson, there must be development of the entities which report to the department during this financial year. PMTE, processes, methods, tools and environment, must optimise the government property portfolio and ensure the development of a property register. The repurposing of the IDT, Independent Development Trust, as an agency of development is critical for delivery of infrastructure projects.

Hon Chairperson, the EPWP, Expanded Public Works Programme, programme has employed nearly 1 million people per annum and over the MTEF, Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, it will reach its target of employing 5 million people. This is certainly an important achievement in alleviating the plight of the poor and unemployed.

This programme has been budgeted in this financial year and must be taken forward. Part of the programme which requires to be developed is the skills development programme which is geared towards creating artisans and entrepreneurs.


Ha ke qetela Modulasetlo, ntumelle ke re ...


... the Select Committee will ensure that there is implementation of programmes and projects through effective oversight which ensures that social transformation occurs. As the ANC we support vote 13. Thank you hon Chairperson.


Ke a leboha.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote 14 - Statistics South Africa – put

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 15 - Traditional Affairs – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote 15 for Traditional Affairs. The majority of our people subscribe with institutions of traditional leaders and as such government should give full recognition on the role of traditional leaders. Government should therefore work hand in

hand with traditional leaders on diverse issues which include rural development and the abolishment of cultural practises which promote and tolerate gender discrimination.

This department has failed to take any initiatives to this regard and there has been no tangible evidence which demonstrates its interest to do so. We therefore, rejects this budget of the department which fails to give full recognition to traditional leaders in this country. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the IFP remains highly concerned about the little action taken to involve traditional leaders in the formal government structures. The Constitution recognises the role of the traditional leaders and section 213 of the Constitution specifically states that national legislation may provide a role for traditional leadership as an institute at local levels on matters affecting communities.

Traditional leaders speak on behalf of millions of South Africans and they cannot play second ... [Inaudible.] ... in the developmental agenda. Government continues to make lofty promises on the need to involve traditional leaders, yet we see very little action taken to fulfil these empty promises.

The IFP has consistently called for the strengthening of co- operation between traditional leaders and formal government structures and we will continue to demand such co-operation.

We need to see clear commitment and actual involvement of these traditional leaders and not just empty promises. In the President’s speech on the Presidency Budget Vote, he emphasised that the Presidency sought to engage with the traditional leaders to address specific challenges including on the issue of land but again failed to provide any detail on a such an engagement. We submit that the government is simply paying lip service to this commitment.

The IFP furthermore remains highly alarmed by the recent reports of murders of the traditional leaders in KwaZulu-Natal and we call on government to stop ignoring the reality of the situation and to take action. These brutal killings of traditional leaders require urgent intervention and action from government. The safety of these leaders and the communities they serve must be a priority. The IFP will continue to demand justice to these senseless killings and we will continue to demand government to fulfil its duties to traditional communities and their leaders. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.

Ms A D MALEKA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 15 of the Traditional Affairs. The historical mission of the ANC is the liberation of black in general and Africans in particular. We seek to achieve this by building a non-racial, nonsexist and democratic society. The role of traditional institutions must be located within the society transitioning from the reigns of the colonial apartheid towards a democratic society. Significant strides have been made since the promulgation of the Traditional and Khoisan Leadership Act 3 of 2019 which provides for the recognition of the Traditional and Khoisan establishment of provincial and local houses of traditional and Khoisan leaders and the development of Customary Law.

Traditional institutions are a microcosm of indigenous communities and often what we see in these institutions becomes a reality of these communities. It is in this context that we seek stability in traditional institutions through the resolutions of succession disputes in royal families. The benefits of this it lays the greater social cohesion in our communities.

Traditional leaders have a greater role to play in building social cohesion in our communities and fighting against social

ills such as gender-based violence, femicide, alcohol, substance abuse and xenophobic tendencies. Traditional leaders have a greater role in the socioeconomic transformation of our society.

In some rural and indigenous communities, they still shape development around issues of land use management, spatial planning and water use management. The ANC as an organisation that was founded as a voice through the traditional leaders is at the forefront of ensuring that their perspectives are heard and our municipality councillors is central in the reversal of the apartheid spatial planning which relegated the apartheid spatial planning to the periphery of the mainstream economic development.

Deputy Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the perspective to develop the Customary Law. This is important because despite centuries of colonial apartheid which attacked and supressed indigenous knowledge systems and African would use in continuously to reflect many facts of the African life. This will give further impetus to the transformation of our legal system and its institutions. The ANC supports the Budget Policy Vote.

Vote agreed to

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Vote No 16 - Basic Education - put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chair, South Africa has one of the most unequal school systems in the world with 85% of schools attended by learners poorly funded and dysfunctional. Keeping the children of this country in unrelenting, inequality, poverty and indignity. Recently, we have heard from the Minister of Higher Education that 94% of learners who starts Grade 1 did not reach or enter the Higher Education system.
Additionally, four out of ten learners who start school do not finish school and they have reported 54% dropout before they even complete matric.

The Department of Education has no retention mechanism in place and this will continue to exacerbate the more than
3,3 million youth not in employment, education or training. The

department seems unable to eradicate pit-toilet in schools.

Schools infrastructure across the country remains dilapidated and in perpetual construction despite millions spent every financial year on infrastructure. Teacher vacancies remained high despite millions being spent on Funda Lushaka bursary.
Classrooms are overcrowded and schools are certainly not safe spaces for the majority of learners in this country.

Additionally, the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill poses a huge threat to the education system as it endeavours to remove power to schools governing bodies and centralise power to politicians and officials. It will place a heavier administrative burden on teachers. It removes the powers of the community to determine the language policies and does not adequately consider the online home schooling.

Repeated failure of the Department of Education to address these issues is not only a matter of accountability, but also has dire consequences for the future of millions of young people as well as the future of this country. The DA objects to this Vote. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Chair, as I’ve said before, I welcome the fact that the department acknowledges the importance of developing the skills needed in South Africa

from a young age. By acknowledging the problem and increasing the budget, unfortunately, doesn’t solve the problems that basic education is facing. The realistic steps need to be taken, unlike the proposed the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill that seeks to terminate the functionality and inputs of school governing boards and communities and placing it in the hands of the Department of Education.

Deputy Chair, we have learnt from the past that politicising education is not in the best interest of our learners. The youth of South Africa doesn’t need politics, they need decent schools and infrastructure. They need quality education and a safe environment. They need a curriculum and standards that will empower them to uplift themselves in the future. But instead of addressing those needs this department rather focuses on politics. Deputy Chair, it is clear that this department is failing in each mandate to provide access to basic education for all and it is also clear that this department is putting political agendas before the needs of our youth. Therefore, we as the Opposition, the country as a whole has no faith that this department will utilise this budget in the best interest of our youth. The Freedom Front Plus rejects this budget. Thank you.

Ms S A LUTHULI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects this Budget Vote as we did before. The Department of Education has time and time again proven their incompetency in educating our people. Challenges relating to infrastructure in our schools, overcrowded classrooms, a shortage of teachers, all still remain a problem with no tangible plan in place to ever see the end of them. In KwaZulu-Natal, schools with pit toilets and classroom structures that have asbestos still exist. Till today, there are schools in KwaZulu-Natal that are without water and electricity, which makes the teaching and learning a difficult task.

In the Eastern Cape, mud structures still exist and there is no hope or light for these schools. Assistant teachers are still struggling with receiving their salaries. There still exists a large shortage of mathematics and science teachers, especially in our rural schools which remained ignored and forgotten. In KwaZulu-Natal schools that were affected by floods months ago still have not received any assistance. The department has no plan to ensure that provinces align its plans to national priorities and capacity and for those reasons, Chairperson, we reject this budget. Thank you.

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Deputy Chairperson, we support the Budget Vote 16 on Basic Education because schools are critical institutions which play a critical role in the development of children and the youth. As an Apex priority of the ANC government, education receives the highest budget allocation in provinces except for Gauteng and the Western Cape. To address poverty, unemployment, and inequality, building human capabilities has significant benefits in empowering citizens for self-liberation.

Provincial Departments of Basic Education working with the national department worked closely with provincial and national Department of Social Development to conclude the Early Childhood Development migration from Social Development to Basic Education. As the African National Congress, we are confident that this migration will lay a solid and firm foundation for our education system as this phase of cognitive development for children has a lifelong impact.

Through this Budget Vote, the department will continue to provide support for key policies which alleviate poverty to create equal opportunities for poor and vulnerable students, such as the Nutrition Programme which ensure that no learner learns with an empty stomach and the Scholar transport

programme which in the main supports learners in rural provinces, who without would have to walk kilometers just to get to schools. The success of learners in our education system is impacted by various factors which the department has developed policies for various needs.

The critical aspect which the national department working with provinces should continue to strengthen is the efficient and effective implementation of programmes to meet those objectives. We are not amused by opposition parties which reject the appropriation of votes to provide services which are also a public good. This rejection is a clear indication that they do not appreciate the role they need to play in ensuring that the department delivers on its mandate which responds to the right to education. We are confident as the ANC that we are indeed in a trajectory of improving our education teaching and learning outcomes. I thank you, Deputy Chair.

Division called.

Question – put

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, just on a point of order.


Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Cele cannot vote on behalf of hon Bebee if hon Bebee is not on the platform. It cannot happen.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t think I want to repeat that is already in the beginning. The Chairperson made the announcement as to if someone is kicked out how it’s going to be dealt with. So all what the Table is doing is to make sure that they actually determine whether it is like that or not and then they take the vote into account. I have already requested Advocate to look into that specific issue. I think we have addressed it earlier, hon Aucamp.

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you, Chairperson, the point is just that hon Bebee was not on the platform when the division was called and when the 15 second bells rang she was not on the platform.

Ms Z L I CELE: Hon Chairperson, hon Bebee was on the platform. She got a problem with load shedding.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I have order in this House? The first time when this thing arises, I requested Adv Phindela to look into that issue. If at all he cannot confirm that she was on the platform, then he will filter in or filter out. It is not necessary for members to fight. The checks and balances are in place. We have addressed that issue. Can I say that is how I ruled on this issue. The Table needs to make sure and they are capable of doing that. They need to make sure whether the person was kicked out during voting or not and then filter in or out. Can we accept that?

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, yes we can. I fully agree with you and we abide by your decision on that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. We will now ask those that want to abstain from voting. Hon Labuschagne, are you abstaining from voting? What is happening? Is it a legacy hand? If it’s a legacy hand, we will then ignore it. Its Basic education and there was a call for a division, let’s just get the results. So there it is now.

AYES: 32: Bartlett, M; Camealio-Benjamin, V; Carrim, Y I; Cele, Z L I; Dangor, M; Dube-Ncube, N; Dliso, L; Dodovu, T S C; Gillion, M N; Govender, M; Koloi, L. Lekganyane, N M; Lucas, S E; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Maneng, N; Mkhatshwa, P V; Mkiva, Z; Mncube, B; Mmoiemang, K M; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Mthethwa, M E; Mvoko, M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ntsube, I; Nyambi, J A; Rayi, M; Rosho, M Z; Sekoati, SC; Shaikh, S; Thabete JL.

NOES: 21: Aucamp, W A S; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Du Toit, S F; Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, SB; Londt, J J; Luthuli, S A; Mathevula, B; Michalakis, G; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai, K; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Sileku, I; Smit, C B F; Visseer, C; Zandamela, S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 17 – Higher Education and Training – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms S A LUTHULI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Higher Education and Training. We reject the budget

of the department which continues to fail the needs of our students. We reject a Minister who has constantly demonstrated hatred for black student across the country.

Year in and year out, students in the institutions of higher learning embark on deadly protests over the same issues such as the following. Lack of access to institutions, racism, high tuition fees, and accommodation fees. This department also ignores the needs of staff components at this institution. The University of Johannesburg for instance has no consideration for people with disabilities in their staff complement while white males and females are still over represented at the profession level.

At the University of Free State, accommodation provided is not suitable for gender non-conforming students and staff. At the University of Stellenbosch racism remains a problem. The challenge faced by the students at Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges, such as access to accommodation and safety go by ignored.

To this day, the department has not conducted any meaningful work in transforming the higher education space. As such, the EFF reject this budget. I thank you.

Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. The ANC rises to support the Higher Education and Training Budget Vote
17 which responds to our skills development needs and higher education and training. Through this vote, the department will be able to support all poor student to access universities and colleges. The introduction of the fee-free higher education policy has resulted in a rapid increase of the budget, but then this has led to a skewed distribution mainly to universities.

We welcome the work done by the Ministry in developing a policy to support students from the missing middle strata who cannot sustain affordability of higher education despite not being poor. This places to the fore the importance of regulating university fees, as this inversely impacts the budget allocation and vulnerability of the missing middle strata.

The Economic Reconstruction Recovery Plan, development strategy is an important policy to align our skills development with immediate economic needs to support economic development and economic growth. The skills and development needs mismatch have resulted in many graduates being

unemployable or in saturated skills sectors leading to unemployment.

The department should continue to address the skills economic mismatch to ensure students acquire education and skills which will enable them to be integrated in the economy and education training, which adapts to the changing world.

Through the Sector Education and Training Authority, SETAs, the department has expanded training opportunities for students and graduates. The department should continue to support the SETAs to ensure good corporative governance and mass massification of training opportunities to address the problem of youth unemployment, particularly for youth, not in education or employment and training.

Hon members, a rejection of this Budget Vote is a rejection of fee-free higher education. It is a rejection of skills development opportunities. The ANC supports this Budget Vote as it responds to the commitment of the ANC manifesto of expanding access to higher education for the poor, because we know that education is a weapon for liberation. I thank you, hon Deputy Chair.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 18 - Health – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M R BARA: Deputy Chair, the Department of Health is going through a lot of challenges that require urgent attention from the Ministry. Firstly, it is important to note the outcry that Dr Tim de Maayer had speaking out against the poor conditions at the hospital which has directly caused the deaths and disability of children. He is working at Rahima Moosa Mother and Child Hospital in Gauteng.

The scanner in Christian Hospital has been broken for three months now. Toilets, not operational because the local reservoir was running low. Dr Tim de Maayer ended up being suspended but was then reinstated because of huge pressure put by colleagues, the South African Medical Association and other entities. Is this how the government protects those that expose the rot in this country? How do we expect to fix issues when those who expose them get punished?

There is a growing concern with emergency medical services staff, where ambulances are stripped and staff robbed. Some were robbed at gunpoint while trying to resuscitate a patient in Mpumalanga.

I want to call on the Ministry to find ways of providing protection to people who put their lives on the line in helping others. The department needs to forge working relations with the Department of Community Safety and police to ensure the security of the staff while at work. The Special Investigation Unit, SIU, probe found 2 803 of 5 467 deals worth R14,3 billion were improper. This is during the covid-19 period.

It would be of high importance that we get a sense of how far the investigations have gone on this matter. It cannot be that there is no thorough progress on such a huge irregular expenditure. As the DA, we have always made a call to do away with covid-19 restrictions and celebrate that South Africa can now go back to normal and focus on fixing our economy. We need to build a system that will respond to the aftermath of the pandemic and equally deal with other health matters in the same breath as we did to covid-19.

We need an integrated, all-inclusive health care system that will cater to other health challenges such as HIV/Aids, Tuberculosis, TB, and mental health holistically. This budget will not do that, Deputy Chairperson, the therefore, the DA objects to this vote. Thank you, Chair.

Ms S A LUTHULI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF reject the budget Vote on Health. We are here today, three years since the covid pandemic struck us and exposed that we have no public health system to speak of in this country. Over 80% of people in this country do not have medical insurances and are therefore dependent on public health. This budget today indicates that there is no appreciation of the depth of the roots in the public health system.

We have South African Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, which is in a constant state of lies and deception. SAHPRA is dead set against approving vaccine developed by companies from Russia and China. They are gambling with the health of our people in their pursuit for functional scientific preferences.

Under the leadership of this department, infants are dying, new mothers are dying and patients are starving in hospitals.

We have a shortage of doctors and nurses while thousands sit at home unemployed. Hospitals are burning and equipment in tertiary hospitals isn’t being serviced or replaced when damaged. Women continue coming to hospital with healthy pregnancies and leave with disabled children, because you have run our public health care system to the ground.

This budget is a business as usual type of arrangement by a government that has no clue of what we are dealing with. The EFF will never legitimize this department and its lazy Minister. For those reasons, Deputy Chairperson, we reject his budget. I thank you.

Ms M N GILLION: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC rises to echo its unequivocal support for the Budget Vote 18 as presented by the hon Minister Phaahla. Since the advent of covid-19, the department’s health interventions, has been aiming at curbing the spread of the while reducing these cases.

Globally, covid-19 has claimed over 6 million lives. And while the end of the pandemic, as we’ve known it approaches, the importance of efficient health system has never been more pronounced. As the ANC, we are persuaded by the principles of bringing about equity and justice in healthcare. We have as

such pronounced under the necessity of universal health coverage in the form of the form of National Health Insurance, NHI, Bill that is before the National Assembly Portfolio Committee on Health. It is impossible to achieve full justice without the equal opportunity to access quality health care by all South Africans, regardless of the class.

The past few years have seen government and various stakeholders robustly deliberating on the different perspective as it relates to the finalization of the NHI Bill. It is as such one of the responsibilities to provide leadership and direction on the topic. The point of departure being the necessity to advocate for the required reform in the health sector, towards the attainment of equitable access to health care in its lifetime.

Providing healthcare services is essentially about integrated health systems, health infrastructure and finance. Therefore, the proposed Budget Vote prioritizes for strengthening primary health care as the first point of reference, for access to the health system, working with provincial departments and expanding health infrastructure across the country and preparing for the implementation of the NHI rollout. This is

in the light of its expected ability to pull financial resources and allocate resources in an equitable way.

Acknowledging the impact that the pandemic has had on the health system, we are encouraged because it has also presented an opportunity for the department to expand its reach through access to improve the health facilities and the uptake of clinical and non-clinical health care workers. The ANC support Budget Vote 18. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 19 – Social Development – put

Declarations of vote:

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, close to 200 children died of malnutrition in the first few months of this year. They were forced to eat sand to fill their stomachs this despite the role of the R350 social relief of distress, SRD, grant. Additionally, millions of beneficiaries have not seen
... [Interjections.]


get a response?

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Deputy Chairperson, we can hear hon Christians.


there is something wrong with the connectivity.

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, close to 200 children died of malnutrition in the first few months of this year. They were forced to eat sand to fill their stomachs this despite the role of the R350 social relief of distress grant, SRD, grant. Additionally, millions of beneficiaries have not seen a cent of this money as the system remain flawed unresponsive to the needs of the poor and the vulnerable.

Payments were made to ineligible individuals due to the inadequate internal controls to perform validations and prevent payments being made to persons that were not entitled to the R350 SRD grant. The department is yet to finalise sanctions against its staff who unlawfully benefitted from this grant.

The department is not serious about curbing the scourge of gender-based violence and femicide and this scourge continues unabated despite millions being spent on programmes we have not seen.

Foster care and adoption programmes remain in crisis as red tapes leaves many vulnerable children unattended.

The HIV budget has been cut by R1 million despite the fact that we are nowhere near winning this battle.

The older persons programme has been reduced by R1,1 million even though care for the aged is a huge problem in the country.

The substance abuse programme has been substantially reduced despite the war against drugs continuing to rage across the country.

The nonprofit organisations, NPOs, remain underfunded and approximately 7 000 social workers have still not been employed despite the plethora of social issues in the country.

The food basket has increased to R4 609,89 and citizens are unemployed, poverty stricken and starving. This despite millions being spent yearly on grants and programmes aimed at alleviating these miseries.

The social assistance programmes of this department remain flawed and unable to deal with the social issues facing the country. The DA objects this Vote. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.

Ms M N GILLION: Deputy Chairperson, the efficient implementation of the social relief of distress and other social assistance packages have assisted poor and low income households during the period of the COVID-19 pandemic by protecting them from food insecurity and poverty. As the ANC government, we have shown through such interventions that we

remain determined to prioritise the livelihoods of the majority who have been further marginalised as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.

With almost over one-fifth of South African households relying on social grants as their main source of income, the posture of government in this respect should be undebatable. As the ANC, we remain resolute on our commitment to improving people’s livelihoods through poverty alleviation and building a caring and self-reliant generation. In order to achieve this, it is important to ensure that there is synergy between the different spheres of government in delivering services to the people.

The Budget Vote as presented by the Minister commits to enhancing efficiency in order to ensure that delivery in the provincial is not compromised, especially as this relates to pay point sites in our localities.

Guided by the Batho Pele principles, adherence to the strategic objectives of the Department of Social Development and the key interventions highlighted in the Budget Vote, we believe that the process of accessing social grants will be improved. Provinces are instrumental in ensuring that social

security services such as social work and efforts to address social ills in our communities. A rejection of the Budget Vote as presented is in our view a disregard of the reality that ours is an unequal society where millions rely on social services to support their livelihoods.

Indeed, these social services as delivered by the department are an affirmation for many that the South African government cares. The ANC adopts the Budget Vote 19 as presented by Minister Lindiwe Zulu as it seeks to address the socioeconomic challenges that widen inequality by providing social protection for the economically marginalised and impoverished South Africans. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms S B LEHIHI: Thank you, Chair. Chairperson, the EFF once again reject Budget Vote 20 on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities. We reject the department which does not response to many challenges faced by women in this country and failed to take on any coordinated approach of working with Social Development, with Home Affairs so as to fight femicide in this country.

This department has failed to respond to challenged faced by people living with disabilities across all provinces in South Africa and despite promises of inclusion of persons with disabilities as priority groups. Women and persons living with disabilities continues to experience a number of challenges such as poverty and lack of inclusion in the labour market.

The situation is worse for the poor. Black persons living with disabilities in rural areas of Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal as they often have to contend with issues regarding access to healthcare as they faced more barriers

The story of disability in South Africa remains one of social oppression. This department has failed to women of this country. It has failed young people and it has failed differently abled. This budget is the ignorant of the great urgency needed to deal with the problem of young people and young women in particular. We reject this budget ...


... Modulasetulo. Ke a leboga.

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Thanks, hon Chairperson. Gender-based violence and femicide has reached crisis proportions in our country, every year we pay condolences and bury women that have been murdered by men. We need to put an end to gender- based violence in our country and effectively implement the National Strategic Plan on gender-based violence and femicide in all spheres of government particularly at the local sphere, as it is the sphere closest to the people. Provinces are to ensure that the NSP is incorporated into their planning and that programmes address the scourge of gender-based violence and femicide, these are to be infiltrated in ongoing provincial programmes and campaigns.

We must continue to advocate for the rights of persons with disabilities and not be silent on issues pertaining to persons belonging to the LGBTQIA+ community.

As our youth is faced with high levels of unemployment, we must also pay attention to the manifestations of crime, substance abuse and mental health that can be seen as consequences of our socioeconomic challenges amongst youth. Our Youth are ravaged by crime and drug abuse, provinces and local government are to ensure that facilities such as rehabilitation centres, recreational centres, and hubs that assist persons battling with mental health are in operational. These facilities and services assist victims who have fallen to crime and drugs that are detrimental to our youth, therefore such facilities rehabilitate and assist in driving forward our social transformation agenda. Acknowledging that we have high levels of unemployment in our country, provinces should continue to foster ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): As you conclude.

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: As I conclude, hon Chairperson, the department should continue to undertake programme that promote women and youth empowerment and the vulnerable. The ANC supports Vote 20. I thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 21 – Civilian Secretariat for Police Service – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, Chairperson. The EFF reject the Budget Vote for Civilian Secretariat for Police Service. The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service mandated to act as the adviser to the Minister of Police in the request for service delivery and resources of the SAPS. It performs advisory functions on various matters which include, policy and the strategy policy performance, community mobilisation on the crime prevention.

However, this department has demonstrated time and time again that it has no compliance to perform any of its core functions. As a few years ago the Minister asked for the SA National Defence Force involvement in fighting crime in Cape Town. But because that investigation was not lead by a proper intelligence it failed to deal with the daily murderers in Cape Town. We reject this Budget as this department has failed in providing the Minister with a police advice.

It has failed in monitoring and auditing the police. It has failed to mobilise key role players to prevent crime, combat and investigation crime, maintaining a public order and manage all operation functions. As such, we reject this vote. I thank you, Chair.

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you very much, Chairperson of the House. The Civilian Secretariat Police Service, CSPS, drives its authority from section 208 of the Constitution which provide for the establishment of a Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service to function under the direction of the Minister of Police.

The core function Chair, of the CSPS are to conduct oversight of the Police Service and provide policy strategic support to the Minister. Further, Chair, is to ensure that the SA Police Service, SAPS, are efficiently and effectively in their legal responsibility.

The Budget Vote 21 Chair, will enhance the work of the CSPS to monitor police and that it will make sure that the police were given rights to the positive outcomes. The budget Chair, this Budget Vote 21 enhance the department to continue to resource the family violence, children protection and Sexual Offences

Investigation Unit and supporting the top 30 police stations with a higher level of gender-based violence.

The Budget Vote 21 will enable the police to respond promptly to effectively to the victims of gender-based violence and create a friendly and safety environment for the victims.

The Budget Vote 21 will ensure, Chair, that the CSPS continue to monitor and evaluate the police and drive the crime and anti-prevention campaign.

The Civilian Secretariat shall continue conducting community satisfaction survey on the police visibility mainly and get other issues that community wants to be raised about the police.

In conclusion Chair, this is done to ensure effective and address the lack of trust in the police by the public and improve police service delivery. In a night shell Chair, this entity exists to provide support to ensure that SAPS is efficiently and effectively in its operation and that the mandate can only be fulfilled if the Budget Vote is welcomed. The ANC Chair, therefore, support and welcome this vote 21. I thank you, Chairperson.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 22 – Correctional Services – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, House Chairperson, the EFF once again rejects the proposed budget on Correctional Services.

We reject a budget of a department which is responsible for the shoddy conditions of our prisons. Inmates and detainees experience extremely overcrowded prisons, inhumane living conditions, shortage in educational service and shortage of educational staff, as well as social workers and ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motsamai, then let’s go to hon Maleka. It is clear that hon Motsamai has disappeared. Hon Maleka.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Motsamai is back House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motsamai.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, House Chairperson, I don’t know what happened. I just got cut off. Thank you, House Chairperson, the EFF once again rejects the proposed budget on Correctional Services.

We reject a budget ... [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: But he was on the last paragraph.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Oh, the last paragraph.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let’s allow you to conclude. Let’s allow him to conclude. Can he be allowed to conclude? Hon Motsamai.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, House Chairperson, the Department of Correctional Services has failed in almost all aspects in restoring focus on rehabilitation at our prisons. We reject the Budget Vote. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, House Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 22 – Correctional Services. This Vote contributes in the rehabilitation and social reintegration of offenders back into the communities.

Pronouncing the vision for the country, the ANC’s Ready to govern stated that prison service for the country must play its part not simply as restraining convicts but in rehabilitating them.

The ANC asserted that adequate resources should be made available for the humans, accommodation, education, training and job placement of convicts.

Chapter 3 of the Whitepaper on Corrections details that corrections is a societal responsibility and envisages that members of the public will support internal rehabilitation programmes. The objectives of the rehabilitation as summarized in the Whitepaper are: To focus on correction of offending behavior, and enhancing human development and promoting social responsibility and positive social values amongst offenders.

Through self-sufficiency and sustainability model, the department has contributed towards the social relief efforts. The Department of Correctional Services workshops have been capacitated with the latest technology to enable them to produce inmates uniform, staff uniform and shoes in large quantities. Through the model, National Treasury has approved 100% retention revenue generated by the Department of

Correctional Services and these funds will be reinvested towards programmes contributing to self-sufficiency.

The ANC has been and remains the advocate for self-sufficiency and skills development. Through skills development, meaningful contribution into the economy is possible. Rehabilitating offenders and equipping them with the necessary skills after incarceration will contribute to a safer South Africa.
Moreover, effective rehabilitation will contribute to reduced incarceration ... [Inaudible.] ... it must be safe. Both the inmates and officials must be able to feel safe. The ANC supports this Vote.

Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Defence – put

Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 24 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate - put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID. The IPID continue to face one of their biggest challenges which is lack of implementation of their recommendations by the police.

This department has failed to repair broke relationship with the SA Police Service. South Africa experienced a number of reported cases of police violence even though ... [Inaudible.]
... an IPID oversight.

The body that is responsible for making sure that the police are accountable for their acts of violence. Suspects are brutally beaten, punched and kicked even when they were no resisting ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motsamai, your network.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: ... put pressure to meet police targets, police officers often resort to illegal method of operating and such actions cannot be condoned under any circumstances. We reject this Vote. I thank you, Chair.

Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, Budget Vote 24 as presented.

The Budget Vote has a significant role to play in enhancing the Police Service in their fight against crime in general and corruption in particular. The IPID gets its mandate and authority from the relevant legislation, which the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act, which empowers the IPID with the powers to investigate any complaints, alleged misconduct or even offences committed by the members of the SA Police Service. The IPDI is charged with the responsibility to investigate our police members.

Budget Vote 24 will enhance and strengthen investigative capacity and further improve the quality and effectiveness of investigations. The South Africans will benefit from the Budget Vote as this will uncover all the wrong things done by the members of the police ... [Inaudible.] ... justice so that the public can gain trust in the police and appreciate that no one is above the law.

Budget Vote 24 will enhance the Police Service to fight against corruption in the Police Service. It will make sure

that there is strong compliance of the SAPS to the IPID recommendations and further make recommendations to the Minister of Police. Budget Vote 24 will enhance the ongoing fight against gender-based violence and femicide amongst the police women and men in blue and giving attention to murder cases, rape cases, and most importantly, rooting out corruption.

The ANC welcomes and supports Budget Vote 24. I thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 25 - Justice and Constitutional Development -put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget on Justice and Constitutional Development. South Africa’s democracy is entering a very dangerous period, during which the very concept of justice and the rule of law will be severely challenged and undermined.

We are already seeing glimpses of a justice system that is employed by the rich and the powerful to advance their interests while silencing the poor and the vulnerable, and this phenomenon is more pronounced under the Ramaphosa regime than it has ever been since 1994.

We reject the budget of a department which showed lack of support for the office of the Public Protector. Advocate Busisiwe Mkhwebane, despite some of the mistakes she has made, doesn’t deserve to be treated in this way by a democratic government.

As the EFF we want a criminal justice system that is able to investigate and prosecute criminals without fear of favour. We want a Human Rights Commission that is deeply rooted in the idea of justice, particularly for the dispossessed majority.

We want our courts to be left independent to interpret the law without undue influence of the rich and the powerful. All of these are qualities are not found in the current leadership.
As such, we reject this vote.

Ms S SHAIKH: The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and other entities and institutions receive their

budget allocations under the Justice and Constitutional Development’s Budget Vote. Our courts remain critical for enforcing and defending of rights of people and dispensing justice. They have played a pivotal part in protecting the rights of women.

The backbone of the fight against gender-based violence are the Sexual Offences Courts and Thuthuzela Care Centres which were introduced to focus on the speedy adjudication of cases. We welcome the efforts made by the Department of Justice and the entire JCPS cluster in the fight against fraud and corruption. It was reported that a total of R36 million has been allocated, in 2022-23, to invest in ICT in institutions that includes the Investigating Directorate, Public Protector of South Africa and SA Human Rights Commission was made.

A total of R426 million over the medium term to intensify the fight against corruption and ensure sufficient capacity for the investigation and prosecution of criminal cases emanating from the State Capture Commission has been set aside. Among others, this will allow the Independent Directorate to appoint an estimated 90 staff members in a permanent capacity. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Question put.

Objections noted.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 26 - Military Veterans –put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 27 - Office of the Chief Justice –put agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 28 - Police -put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, it is always nice to have you in the Chair. I need not repeat here what I have said during the budget debate about crime in this country being out of control. The public knows it; and the ANC knows about it.
Isn’t that ironic or perhaps sad that the very people with the majority vote in this House know that this budget won’t bring down crime.

They’ve expressed such concerns in the committee discussions, although not explicitly. No, they toe the party line. They will never say it explicitly. But they know: This budget does nothing – the same as other years - different to bring crime down.

Another 67 murders per day! Another 153 rape victims per day! It is now the third year in a row that ANC members bemoan the fact that Ipid’s budget is effectively decreasing, keeping the crooks in their SAPS positions. They know there are too many generals and blue light VIP protection units. They know there are too few specialised cyber, drug, stock theft and rural safety units and forensic expertise!

They are concerned in the same way as the President is on occasion shocked. Yet, will they have the courage, the guts and the backbone to vote against a budget that is by their own admission not ideal for bringing down crime? Or will they toe the ANC party line again, at the cost of innocent people being raped, sucked into the gangsterism underworld or get murdered... [Interjections.]

Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hey, hon Zandamela. Sorry, hon Michalakis. Hon Zandamela, you can’t be disrupting a declaration of vote. What is the problem? Hon Zandamela, this is a declaration and let us allow hon Michalakis to continue without any disturbance. All the parties will have an opportunity to do their declaration. Sorry for that inconvenience. Can you continue, hon Michalakis.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, House Chairperson. I would gladly repeat any part of it, but let me start where I was interrupted. The DA cares deeply about the safety of the people out there. We have put an alternative on the table that will bring down crime with the right budget. This budget we are voting on is not going to do the job and the members in opposition know this.

I hope they will have the courage today, to for once, put the people who voted them in, above the ANC party line. If they can’t muster that, then for the sake of the thousands of victims out there: Abstain, so that we can vote it down for you! Thank you, Chair!

Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair!


Mr S ZANDAMELA: You just left me; you didn’t give me an opportunity to speak. I wanted to correct something: We did forward a notice to the Table that EFF has got a declaration in the Office of the Chief Justice, but you did not call us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): However, we are not dealing with the Office of the Chief Justice now. You were supposed to do that when I put the Budget Vote on the Office of the Chief Justice. Now, we are dealing with ... [Interjections.]

Mr S ZANDAMELA: We forwarded to the Table that we have got a declaration in the Office of the Chief Justice and we support the office ... [Interjections.] ...but it is incorrect that you are now recording that EFF doesn’t support the Office of the Chief Justice. We do support the Office of the Chief Justice but you didn’t give us an opportunity to present our declaration. [interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): There is no objection even from your part. I said all parties support – It is agreed on. You were not following, hon Zandamela.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: But the declaration, House Chair! We had a declaration ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You wanted to do a declaration, but we are not dealing with that Budget Vote now. Can you be alert, hon members? Let us be alert! [Interjections.] Let us be alert! Now, we are dealing with the Budget Vote for Police. For EFF, it is hon Motsamai who must present. Hon Motsamai!


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the budget for Police. As the EFF we note with deep concerns how police performance and conduct has deteriorated over the past two- and-a-half decades, with priorities remaining unchanged.

Under the watchful eye of the SAPS, South Africa has over a period of two decades, witnessed an increase in crime statistics. Our police officers are simply not well trained to do their jobs. Their training does not speak to the challenges which officers face on the ground.

It is as a result of this aimless policing that today we witness mass shootings every single weekend in Khayelitsha, in Cape Town. Our police stations are housed in poor infrastructure, they lack technology, and the vans in each and every police station are stationary because they just don’t have tyres. The capacity of the SA Police Service to do anything has been dramatically eroded.

The people of this country need satellite police stations that will open 24 hours, seven days a week and in every ward in the country where there is no police station. We need to recapacitate community policing forums and encourage formation of crime watch in the streets and community hotspots. We reject this Budget Vote.


Mnr F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, soos altyd word die eerbare pogings van die dames en manne in blou hoog op prys gestel en erken. Dankie, aan elkeen van julle, wat met hart en siel in die stryd teen misdaad veg.


Chair, have the SAPS lost the war against crime or are members

acting on instructions from the proverbial ‘man with the hat’?

The latest crime stats are a reflection of the truth – the softer version of the reality in South Africa. On a year-to- year basis, murder increased by 22,2%; attempted murder increased by 2,8%; and burglary increased by 13%!

Most South Africans are in dire need of police protection! I say most South Africans, because the VIP Protection budget was bolstered; whilst the SAPS budget is insufficient and does not address the current demands in the department.


Wat verder kommerwekkend, is die feit dat daar onderspandering in die Polisiebegroting was. Hoe kan dit wees? Is dit moontlik? Ons ondervind op ’n daaglikse basis dat daar onvoldoende hulpbronne by die meeste polisiestasies is, ’n tekort aan personeel en uitdagings met oorlaaide speurdienste.

Hoe is dit moontlik dat ’n Minister, wat weet dat hy een van die bekendste figure, maar ook een van die mees berugte figure in die land is, kan toelaat dat daar onderspandeer word? Hoe is dit moontlik dat hierdie Minister kan toelaat, dat nasionale roetes deur protesgangers versper word, soms vir dae.

Dit maak nie saak of hierdie paaie deur individue of vragmotorbestuurders versper word nie, gewone burgers se regte word deur sulke aksies geskend.


The Minister must explain why the SAPS allowed about

200 trucks to Block the N12 at Bloemhof in the North West province for three days, an economical highway, an interprovincial vain. Millions of rands were lost as a result thereof.

How is it possible that selective law enforcement is taking place in the country? Situational awareness and mere monitoring is costing the economy millions of rands!

It is said that a mistake repeated more than once is a decision. How many mistakes, Minister, are in fact decisions? How much longer must the economy be held hostage by disgruntled law-breakers?


Ons hardloop uit tyd uit, Minister. Suid-Afrika is in ’n kruidvat situasie. Ons kan nie hierdie begroting ondersteun nie.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chair, according to section 205 of the South African Constitution, the core functions of the SA Police Service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime; to maintain public order; to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property; and to uphold and enforce the law.

Further, the budget states amongst others that the department will focus on improving community safety and reducing violence against women and children. As the IFP, we welcome this commitment by the SAPS and are in full agreement that ensuring community safety and reducing gender-based violence and femicide are top priorities. We have and will continue to vocal advocates among our communities and we remain committed to building a South Africa where people feel safe at home, at school and in the workplace.

The IFP has consistently called for police visibility to be enhance. In order for this to happen, there need to be sufficient votes on the ground. We therefore must again raise our concerns about lack of policing capacity. President Ramaphosa, in his 2022 State of the Nation Address, promised more police officers. The budget then confirms that the department’s intention is to rejuvenate and improve policing

capacity through the appointment of 12 000 entry-level constables.

However, less widely publicised is the fact that 10 000 will replace personnel who have left the SAPS. The provision over the medium term has therefore only been made for an additional
2 000 police officers. It is important to note that South Africa, currently, has 1 154 police stations. Simple mathematics will reveal that this equates to the majority of police stations only receiving one additional officer. How much of an impact can this make?

According to the Portfolio Committee on Police, “The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations, aka the Hawks, is severely under capacitated,” and “The DPCI functions with a 48% workforce”. These serious capacity issues must be addressed with urgency if the SAPS and the Hawks are to fulfil their essential mandates.

Also, if the SAPS Gender-Based Violence, GBV, and Sexual Offences Action Plan is a key priority for 2022-23, it is concerning to note that, “Popcru recommended that police stations must be resourced with the Rape Testing Kits, RTK,

and police officers trained on how to use them.” Why has this not been done yet?

The budget must be properly utilised to ensure commitments - such as the one to end GBV – become the lived reality of citizens, and not just empty promises. I thank you.

Ms S SHAIKH: The Budget Vote 28 of Police has a significant role to play in the fight against all sorts of crimes in South Africa. In that spirit, ANC welcomes and supports budget vote
28. The vision of creating safer communities will move towards being a reality and realisation will only come through the Budget Vote 28. The budget will enable the police to intensify the fight against gender-based violence and reduce the DNA backlog.

Chairperson, gender-based violence and femicide continue to haunt South Africa, and Budget Vote 28 will further enhance the department of police in the fight against gender-based violence and femicide through various campaigns and programs.

The fight against crime in our society will never be won only through the police, but there is a need to mobilise different sectors of the society to play an active role from business to

civilian organisations and faith-based movements. All these different groupings will require resources to mobilise, train, and equip them and the budget will enable this to happen and the ordinary South African stand to benefit the most from the Budget Vote.

The funds allocated will play a critical role in crime preventative measures and proactive policing. The budget will increase the resources for the police to improve policing through more recruitments and the use of technology as a strategy for policing. The use of technology requires resources to acquire the necessary tools, and a budget is imperative in that regard.

The primary objective of the SA Police Service is to create a safe and secure community for all South Africans and that can be a reality if we welcome the Budget Vote. Thus, the ANC welcome and support the Budget Vote 28, which will benefit all South Africans as crime affect everyone. I thank you, Chair.

Division called.

The Council divided.




Mr S F Du TOIT: Hon Chair, on a point of order: The hands for support were not taken down. They are still up. So, we can’t go to abstentions yet!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, we are against now; we are done with the support. I said they should lower their hands. [Interjections.

Mr S F Du TOIT: But then, if that is the case, then the whole ANC is supporting, and is against and is abstaining! [Interjections.]

The SECRETARY OF THE NCOP (Adv M Phindela): Hon House Chair! Hon House Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Secretary to the NCOP, Adv Phindela, yes!

The SECRETARY OF THE NCOP (Adv M Phindela): It is the Secretary of the Council here. Can you please allow us to lower the hands which voted in favour, and we will indicate when to go for the hands against?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay! Can you please lower the hands in favour?

Mrs C LABUSCHAGNE: It looks as if they are asleep, hon House Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): And, I have pleaded with everybody, including the staff and hon members, that let us all be alert!

AN HON MEMBER: We are alert!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let’s lower the hands

... [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: The hands are not lowering! [Interjections.]

ANOTHER HON MEMBER: No, they are supporting us! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay! The hands are lowered now. Let us have ... [Interjections.]


AOTHER HON MEMBER: Hon Mkiva’s hand is still up!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): All against should please raise their hands!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Against, please raise your hands!

Mr Z MKIVA: My hand is not lowering, Chairperson. Can you ask them to lower my hand? I am not sure whether it is because my hand is that of a black person, or not? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Voting continued:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The count is completed. The Table will lower all the hands, to prepare for the next vote. Delegates who abstain should please raise their hands?

The count is completed. The Table will now lower all the hands. Voting is now closed! The Table will submit the results.

The results are as follows: ... [Interjections.]

Ms C VISSER: Sorry, on a point order, Chair. It so happens to me - the fourth time now - that as soon as they clear the hands, they cut me off. So, I am voting against the Budget Vote. Please see that my hand is at the right place.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay!


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 29 - Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development - put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon chairperson. Am I audible?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Very audible.

Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you very much. Hon Chair, we have a farming community who are resilient, innovative and who have endurance of steel in this country, but our farmers are feeling anxious, deserted and under-appreciated. I can only imagine how afraid they must feel when they see in the news another neighbour, friend or even family member, that has been brutally attacked and murdered on the farm, having to fear for your family every single day, while struggling to navigate for survival in a country where a farmer is not appreciated and even labelled as an enemy.

The truth is, they are an easy target and this government is unable to protect them, and in some instances, I even question their motives as it can come across as deliberately failing our farming community. I want to tell our farming communities

out there, whether commercial, upcoming or subsistence farming, don’t despair, a DA-led government is awaiting us in 2024. Your contribution to this country and its people, will be appreciated once again, and you will be supported and protected by your government under the DA. We as the DA cannot not support this failing and shrinking budget. I thank you.

Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. We once again reject this department which has poverty eradication as one of its priorities, yet, this goal, is yet to be realised, because the ANC-led government is not serious when it comes to delivering on their promises and has not put in place any tangible plans for its realisation.

Today in our country, the poor and landless continue to suffer more, with no access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food. The department has failed to build and support fresh produce markets for access by small-scale food producers. Conditions of farmworkers under white farm owners have worsened, especially in the Western Cape. Farm workers are still worse off than any other sector of the economy. Most workers receive low wages, poor housing facilities and health indicators are substandard.

Farm workers remain marginalised and in a particularly vulnerable position exposed to human rights violations and abuse. As the EFF we reject this report and the failure of an ANC corrupt government which is only known for looting and stealing from the poor. Thank you.


Mnr S F DU TOIT: Dankie, agb Voorsitter.


Food security is the talking point on the local and international front. Government should stop focusing on race, especially when it comes to food security and safety. I enquired from National Treasury on the number of initiatives that there are, to assist commercial farmers in the current financial and environmental circumstances. The answer was that the National Treasury must operate according to government’s National Development Plan, NDP, and its ideologies. The assistance is given to upcoming farmers.


Voorsitter, die kort en die lank is dat vele inisiatiewe ... [Onhoorbaar.] ... en nie op parallelle ontwikkelings-

inisiatiewe, waar kommersiële boere ook daarby baat nie.

Ongelukkig speel kleur ’n rol.


Chair, I am aware that the Landbank fall under public enterprises, but the Landbank used to play an integral role in developing the Agricultural sector. The current state of affairs is that the Landbank could be on the same trajectory as SAA, appointing new boards, sticking to ideological approaches that results in further financial distress for the bank as well as the customer. The Landbank turned away UP to 50% of its paying customers due to financial constrains as a result of race based approaches, and it will be assisted by R5 billion allocation.


Voorsitter, die regering moet aandag skenk om die huidige boere te ondersteun. Insetkoste soos die prys van brandstof en kunsmis sal dringend verlaag moet word om volhoubare kwaliteit produkte te lewer en werksverliese te verminder of te voorkom, en ook om voedselpryse bekostigbaar te hou. Dit is geboekstaaf dat die VF Plus op meer as een geleentheid ’n beroep op die regering gedoen het om te verseker dat boere, hul gesinne en werkers juis beskerm moet word.

Ten spyte van die onlangse reën in dele van Suid-Afrika, benodig heelwat boere steeds hulp na afloop van die onlangse reën, oorstromings en droogte. Hierdie is onvoldoende befondsing wat vir belangrike kwessies beskikbaar gestel is.


Protecting a farming community, and then you protect a country.


Dankie, Voorsitter.

Ms T C MODISE: Thank you very much House Chair, and good afternoon colleagues. Hon Chair, the ANC supports Vote 29 as
one of the fiscal instruments that government uses to finance of policy objectives on agriculture, land reform and rural
development. The ANC is very much aware of an urgent need help grow and broaden our economy for inclusive participation and
ownership. The dispossession of land from the black majority, Africans in particular, is one of the causes of poverty, unemployment and inequality in our society.

In order to ensure that we adequately deal away with the legacy of colonialism and apartheid, the ANC will continue to

ensure that land is redistributed to those who work on it. The Land Beneficiary Selection Policy will not only ensure that priority in land allocation is geared towards women, youth and people living with the disabilities, but will equally ensure
that allocated land is put to productive use and thus

contribute to our national food security. It is worth noting that, amongst other things, one of the reasons why certain
claims are made by the DA and the FF Plus, is because they know that some of our local farmers are hoarding food, such as
many farmers in the Free State, and this is influenced by the economies of scale within the sector.

In order to dismantle agricultural monopolies, this Vote will provide support to emerging commercial farmers by ensuring
that land is made available to them. We know that most of our emerging farmers do not have access to land and many cannot
all be accommodated at the municipal commonages. Hon Chairperson, this vote will see the finalisation of the
Agriculture and Agro-Processing Master Plan, as well as the Hemp and Cannabis Master Plan and these are policy initiatives meant to unlock grow and unleash our agricultural productivity potential and to create the much needed job opportunities as the sector is labour intensive.

In conclusion, hon Chairperson, there are no valid reasons and therefore no reasonable premise for members of this House to object to this progressive Vote 29 for the Land Reform, Agriculture and Rural Development. We have an electoral
mandate and the responsibility as the ANC to ensure that the

developmental needs of our all South Africans are met and their interests advanced. The ANC supports the vote, hon House Chair.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

[Take in from Minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 30 – Communications and Digital Technologies - put

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 31 – Employment and Labour – put

Declarations of vote:

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon House Chair, South Africa’s economy is producing jobless growth, and given their economic growth projections, it is forecasted that the highest unemployment rate in the world will see another increase in the medium term. Moreover, with inflations said to increase over the coming months, higher living costs, together with limited job opportunities will be detrimental to South Africans in general, and low income households in particular. Under the expanded definition, which includes discouraged job seekers, the unemployment rate declined to 46,2% from 46,6%, but you know that things are pretty bad when this is good news.
Unemployment has a negative impact on consumption, savings and investment, bringing about a nation that is at wits end as unemployment means hardship and starvation.

Therefore, we must ask, “Is the ANC the right party to reduce the catastrophic levels of unemployment to which the answer is an emphatic no.” Minister, you must admit that the country is in a crisis and a different approach to economic growth is needed. The ANC comes up with economic reforms to revive the economy, but these reforms have not shown up in any data. Your plans for economic recovery are completely misplaced. We do not need to see Bills like the Employment Equity Amendment

Bill being enacted, as this will exacerbate the unemployment and poverty calamities. It seems to be a question of three steps forward and four steps back. We need to see these appalling economic policies removed and replaced with workable policies which will enable business to grow and getting investors to flock to South Africa and to stunt the skyrocketing unemployment rate. The DA objects. Thank you very much, House Chair.


Mnr S F DU TOIT: Voorsitter ...


 ... the ANC’s goal of achieving economic transformation by the year 2030 will not be achieved and their goals and objectives needs to be relooked. We have the human capital in South Africa to let the economy thrive, race-based policies and regulations just needs to be scrapped as soon as possible. The unemployment rate is at an all-time high. It currently stands at 34,5% and the youth unemployment rate in the North West province, stands at a staggering 70% - that is 70!

Statistics SA confirmed that the quarterly Labour Force Survey found that in the first quarter 2022, the unemployment rate

for those aged between 15 and 24 years of age was 63%. It translates to about three out of 10 people.


Die feit dat die huidige onderwysstelsel veel te wense nalaat, dra by tot die lae syfers vir indiensneming. Die oorsaak van die werkloosheidsyfer strek veel verder as slegs die daaglikse ekonomiese omgewing waarin ons onsself bevind. Die kwaliteit en kundigheid van leerders en student speel ook ’n rol. Ons moet nie na begrotings in silos kyk nie, want dit vat hande met mekaar.

Werkgewers kan weens die hoë insetkoste nie noodwendig bekostig om enige verliese te hê, weens onbekwame persone sonder enige werksondervinding nie.

Die uitdaging is dat werkgewers hierdie kandidate ’n geleentheid moet gee, om hul vaardighede te ontwikkel, ondervinding op te doen en terug in die besigheid te ploeg. Ek benadruk dit weereens, dat geen aanstelling op ’n ander evaluasie as meriete mag plaasvind nie.

Die regering se huidige projekte vir werkskeppings help nie noodwendig om vaardighede te ontwikkel nie, maar eerder om

tydelike werkers in diens te neem, met die troos van vergoeding, sonder dat hul kundigheid bevorder word.


Race-based policies must be scrapped to enable the economy to grow. The FF Plus cannot support this Vote. Thank you.

Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, the budget of the Department of Employment and Labour has increased from R3,81 billion in 2021-22 to R3,95 billion in the 2022-23 financial year. One of
the most important entities of the department - the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, recorded its highest number in last scale retrenchments in the 2020-21 financial year, which represent an increase of 54% from 729 to
1 124. Indeed, we accept that there were tremendous difficulties faced by many companies during the various stages of national lockdown.

However, there is evidence that some reckless employers tend of see retrenchment of workers as an option of this resort rather than ... [Inaudible.]. These are people who find a home in the DA and the FF Plus. The CCMA has been weakened by budget cuts. In spite of this, the CCMA remains an instrument available to social partners that are capable of working

beyond its mandate in resolving labour disputes. For this reason, it must be allocated sufficient resources. Some employers in South Africa are exploiting a lack of clearly articulated policy framework in the management of labour migration. What these employers re doing generates anger amongst South Africans who are jobless.

We are pleased that the department is developing the National Labour Migration Policy and see this as an intervention to address the inadequacy of existing policy framework. It would help in provinces like Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal where tensions are running high, especially in coal mining corporation and farms. In light of populist mobilisation target in foreign nationals, we call on the department’s inspection and enforcement services to continue its megablitz inspection targeting the hospitality and agricultural sectors. Where these problems are most prevalent, the inspectorate must place compliance on the National Minimum Wage Act, the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Basic Conditions of Employment Act, Unemployment Insurance Act and Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act. This approach must also serve to advise educate and provide technical information and support to both workers and employers about the services offered by the inspectorate. The Department of Home Affairs

and the SAPS must form part of the inspection to ensure that as many companies as possible are fully for compliance with our national laws. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

Division called.

The Council divided:

[Take in from minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting)

Vote No 32 - Environment, Forestry and Fisheries - put

Declarations of vote:

Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, we rejected this Budget Vote when it was debated earlier, and we feel the need to state our position on the uselessness of this department. We reject this budget as corruption in the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries and entities under the Minister’s management continues on a daily basis. The massive irregular expenditure wasteful and fruitless expenditure, flouting our

supply chain management legislation and over payment of invoices remains a problem.

The country is bleeding from corruption and the poor are suffering the most under the government. Taxpayers money is not spent in a responsible manner. Under the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries communities staying in and around forests and natural resources are not benefiting at all. Small–scale fishers who are in need of environmental justice are not enjoying the benefits of South Africa’s resources. Small-scale fishers from the Western Cape, Northern Cape, Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal face numerous challenges in applying and accessing fishing permits, and their livelihoods stand on the serious attack as many struggle to feed their families. The Minister’s failure to oversee the resources of South Africa effectively and responsibly will go down in the history books of this country. We reject this budget and we condemn the ANC for taking the country backwards. Thank you, chairperson.

Ms T C MODISE: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC rightly support Vote No 32 of the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. This Vote will see the tabling of Climate Change Bill and pieces of legislation will ensure the implementation

of the comprehensive legislative framework around climate change with mitigation and adaptation measures to be adhered by the provincial and local government. Through the implementation of climate change response by provincial and local municipalities within a national adaptation strategy and plan, and this will include assessment of country vulnerability to climate change and related sectors at cross sectoral and geographic level.

We are content with the allocation of resources to Sanparks and we are hereby putting emphasis on the important contribution our national parks make towards the growth of the economy - its contribution to tourism and conservation and protection of our environment. We are concerned about the number of domestic black visits to our national parks and this is important to ensure that all South Africans alike have equal access to our natural habitat and environment. The Vote understand the concept of sustainable and use and exploitation of our natural resources such as marine living resources and will allocate fishing rights to small-scale fishers.

We take note that fishing rights allocation process is transformative policy within the fisheries sector. We acknowledge that a lot of progress has been made in terms of

the forestry branch. And we call upon the department to ensure the speedy transfer of forestry land to rural communities in order to better their livelihoods.

In conclusion, as the ANC we call upon the City of Cape Town to reasonably adhere to the heads of agreement with Sanparks and ensure the transfer of all land under agreement for the inclusive benefit. As South Africa belong to all who live in it and including the Table Mountain. Thank you very much, House Chair.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 33 – Human Settlements – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Human Settlements. We reject the budget of a department which gives poor quality housing to our people.

This department is known for nothing but poor workmanship, incompetence and lack of ethics, which contributes towards providing the poor with substandard houses. Underlying this is

the fact that the victims of this injustice are mostly the invisible, whose voices hardly find expression in mainstream media and other news avenues.

Year after year houses in the Western Cape get flooded during periods of heavy rainfall. These are places where children with disability live, places where no human being should live.

In KwaZulu-Natal and elsewhere in the country our people are struggling to deal with natural disasters because the government has not provided secured homes for them.

Till today, House Chair, the department has failed to tell us what exactly is their intervention in KwaZulu-Natal, following the devastating floods in that area.

There also exist a serious demand and plea from communities to make land available with service stands where people who can afford to build for themselves, no these one-roomed Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses. But our people will not realize that dream because friends and comrades of the Ministers and Members of Executive Council, MECs, are the ones being awarded tenders to build RDP houses,

hence service stands is not yet an option in the ANC-led government. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, this government continues to fail dismally in the provision of access to adequate houses for those in need.

The right to housing additionally ... [Inaudible.] ... the right to dignity and to basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation.

The application process has been plagued by corruption and fraud and it’s again the most vulnerable in our society, the elderly, children and people with disabilities who suffer the most.

According to the development action group, the national housing backlog currently sits at an estimated 2,6 million and close to 12 million are awaiting decent accommodation.

In the Western Cape alone more than 600 000 people are currently on the waiting list for housing. This shocking reality cannot be ignored.

I must reiterate the IFPs most serious concerns surrounding the issue of blocked projects. It is, furthermore, illogical that no indicators, budget or timeframes are linked to the department’s three-year plan to unlock these projects. This is a critical failure and reflects poorly on the department’s attention to urgently attend to these projects.

Digitization of housing beneficiary list and the issue of title deeds remain another serious concern.

Chairperson, our most vulnerable, the elderly and child-headed households must be prioritized as beneficiaries in housing allocation. The department has most sacred duty in this regard.

With these concerns the IFP supports the vote. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chairperson, I rise to support the budget and the vote itself because at the ANC we understand that housing remains a biggest that’s facing our country, that our country being mainly be in poor and squalor conditions. That after 28 years there’s still a long way to go to ameliorate the situation that our people find themselves in.

And it is for that reason that we support the endeavours and the efforts of the department to ameliorate this situation to ensure that our people have access to affordable houses, that our people have access to subsidies that must enable them to have roof over their heads, that our people have title deeds, but in addition that, that they have a land tenure system that will ensure that promote investment where they live.

As the ANC we understand that this can be only achieved when there is coordination between all sectors of our society, both private and public sector, but at the same time all spheres of government, at local government level, at provincial government level and national government level; working together in unison to ensure that we achieve these particular objectives.

As the ANC we know that this road is very, very long, it needs us to be patient, it needs us to collaborate with our people and continue to build houses because over the 28 years, despite what other parties are saying, the ANC has made an indelible contribution in terms of making sure that it housed the people, in terms of making sure that people have access to water where they live and we salute this particular endeavour of the ANC.

And we are saying our government must continue along this particular liaise, it must accelerate the process of ensuring that at the end of the day people have houses. And these other ones will continue to complain, they will continue to close their eyes and plug their ears and not understand and not see that the ANC is doing its level best to house our people.

And on that score, hon Chairperson, as I indicated, we salute this budget, we support it and we say to the Minister, work very hard, coordinate with all the sectors so that all of us must succeed. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Agreed to

Vote No 34 – Mineral Resources and Energy – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, South Africa has the most amazing people who can joke even in the direst of situations. South Africans are extremely patient and accommodating. The potential of this nation is endless with the diversity of people who have different views and have this inherent creativity and innovation.

However, we must acknowledge their frustration and irritation with the constant electricity blackouts that disrupt their lives, their work, their businesses and even studies.

We can only imagine how demoralised they must feel when they struggle to make ends meet or just survive. To be hit in the face with a petrol price now passing R25, looming towards R30 per litre. Taxi fares are going up, food has become unaffordable and keep rising.

All South Africans want is the ability to live a peaceful life, getting home where the lights are on, able to make some food that was affordable and in line with their income. Is that too much to ask from this government?

The DA will place ordinary South Africans first and ensure affordable energy security as a baseline for economic growth and a job renaissance. 2024 is around the corner!

The DA cannot support this oppressive budget. I thank you.

Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 34 of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. This budget vote will advance the priority interventions of the Economic

Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, including amongst others the restructured electricity sector and the transitional regulatory arrangements required to make this possible.

For instance, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy in line with the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan’s priority intervention of supporting electricity industry reforms to achieve energy security has amended and tabled the Electricity Amendment Bill and the Electricity Pricing Policy to establish a dynamic and competitive electricity market in the country.

These amendments will certainly provide greater certainty to market participants, thereby increasing investments in the generation capacity from the Independent Power Producers, IPPs, which is necessary to offset the growing energy demand as well as allow municipalities to procure electricity directly from the Independent Power Producers.

The budget vote is geared towards ensuring that mining in a sunrise rather than sunset industry. To be franker, the department will improve the turnaround time of mining permits, rights and licenses through the procurement of the new

Information and Communications Technology, ICT, infrastructure and system.

More importantly, the fast-tracking of the mining permits, rights and licenses will accelerate radical transformation and mineral beneficiations in the mining industry so that the industry can be reflective of South Africa’s demographics.

Furthermore, the turnaround time of mining permits, rights and licenses will, of course, incentivize investors to invest in the exploration of the newly discovered mineral resources considered critical in the transition towards the green economy and this in turn will create more job opportunities in mining communities in the former Bantustan provinces like North West, Mpumalanga and Limpopo.

Furthermore ... as I conclude, Chairperson, the select committee will continue monitoring the work of the department to ensure that the policy priorities of the ANC-led government are realized. I thank you.

Division called


Agreed to

Vote No 35 - Science and Innovation – put.

Agreed to.

Vote No 36 – Small Business Development - put

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 37 – Sports, Arts and Culture – put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson the EFF reject the Budget Vote for Sport, Arts and Culture. We reject the budget of the department which failed to protect its artists during the COVID-19 period and its restriction, even when it promised them some assistance. This department will always be known as a department which deprived artists the opportunities of putting food on the table. Stadium closed for a whole two years, and most of our artists lost their means of income and lot more.

Chairperson today many creatives stand to lose their homes because they have been unable to make a living over the past couple of years. That department has not lifted a finger to assist. Instead Chairperson, the budget was that was allocated to assist them was looted and never achieved what it was meant to achieve.

In sports, there has been no coherent programmes of sport development led and co-ordinated by the department across all sporting codes, dominated by African people. Football is still led by the corrupt Danny Jordan, who has not initiated a single development programme in the country. We therefore reject this budget as it does not develop sports and arts in anyway. Instead, it poses a way for the ruling party to once again misuse and abuse funds. I thank you.

Ms M N GILLION: House Chairperson, building a nation is a bedrock our democratic South Africa was founded on, which espouses our shared values as espoused in the Constitution. The department has an important role to play in ensuring that the identities of all South Africans are recognised and embraced, as part of the diversity that defines a vision of a national democratic South Africa. The heritage landscape has a symbolic value, and the cultural dominance in the heritage

landscape requires the department to implement programmes, that will transform our spaces and forge social cohesion through the inclusion of marginalized identities and history.

In relation to sports, we have continuously observed the level of inequality between men sports and women sports. This is worsened by the commercialisation of sports, which supports male sports more. The lack of sporting facilities in rural and underdeveloped areas is another factor, depriving many South Africans to grow participation in various sports at a competitive level and at a recreational level.

The ... [Inaudible] ... as a health and economic benefits of a sports active nation are good and should be harnessed through these programmes of this Vote. Digital innovations have created new economic opportunities for creative artists in arts and culture. We need to support our artists through our cultural diplomacy efforts and to support their development.

Another critical area in this budget is the creative and cultural economy, which makes a critical contribution to job creation. The trade aspect of the creative and culture aspects of the sector requires focus can transformation, to offer the

world the diversity of our nation and to ensure equitable economic ... sorry Chairperson.

As I conclude Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 37 of Sports, Arts and Culture so that it continues to play its role to develop, preserve, protect and promote sports arts, culture and heritage. Thank you Chair.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 38 – Tourism - put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson the EFF object the Budget Vote of Tourism. We know that COVID-19 had a huge effect on the sector. But what this period demonstrated is the inability for the leadership of the sector to reimagine tourism during times of global difficulties, such as a period we are now emerging from. There is no leadership in this department. The department has failed to even meet their own targets for the first and the second quarter of this financial year.

The Tourism Recovery Plan offers nothing of substance, other than giving Temporary Employee Relief Scheme, TERS Grant to an undefined category of employees. The department merely spent 19% of its budget for ... [Inaudible] ... development during this period. Despite the great need for diversity diversifying our tourist value proposition in the country, they achieved eight of their 19 targets for tourism sector support. It is difficult to understand why this happened because the entire tourism sector is on its knees as a result of COVID-19.

The Tourism Equity Fund has been embroiled in court shenanigans because of the challenges from racists who are fighting the prioritisation of black people to benefit from the fund. We do not know why the department has not appealed this decision of the Supreme Court of Appeal in the Constitutional Court. As the EFF will reject its Budget Vote. Thank you very much Chair.

Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much hon Chair. Over the last two years, we have all witnessed and watched the tourism sector bear the brunt of COVID-19. The 2021 July unrest and the recent floods in KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and North West have set our country back by a mile. While these events might help proved how susceptible the tourism sector is to natural

disaster and pandemics, they have also shown us that tourism remains one of the most resilient sectors of our economy.

South Africans love to travel and people often were amazed at what our country offers. The sector is showing signs of recovery and this is evidenced by increasing income in almost all categories of accommodation, food and beverages, as well as transport. The Tourism Sector Recovery Plan has provided a firm basis for this recovery, and we believe that the budget allocation of R7,6 billion in the medium term will enhance the work of the department and its entity, towards a sustainable and more inclusive tourism sector for a better life for all and the betterment of the lives of many women, young people and persons with disabilities who look to this sector for their economic emancipation.

Hon members, unemployment in our country has reached crisis levels. Therefore, it is incumbent on all three spheres of government to channel their resources, towards projects that will provide job opportunities for our people. We must welcome initiatives such as the one of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Environmental Affairs, which has allocated R1,7 million in the in grant funding to KwaDukuza Local Municipality.

The municipality was a first runner up to the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Environmental Affairs 2021-22 Natural Resource Management Municipality Competition for Mavivane Transformative Riverine Management Programme. This project will demonstrate the important ecological, social and economic benefits of rehabilitating river catchments in shielding the municipality, vulnerable citizens and businesses from escalating disaster risk and costs associated with climate change.

We are encouraged that through this project, new ways to mitigate change disasters will be discovered while in the process, more than 300 people will gain employment. For this reason and more, we support the Budget Vote 38 – Tourism.
Thank you very much.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 39 - Trade, Industry and Competition – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Trade, Industry and Competition. We reject this budget

because nothing tangible has ever come from this department which is continuously in a planning phase, with a series of task teams that continue to research the reports compiled by them.

Instead of finding solutions to challenges faced, this department continues to adopt neoliberal policies that cannot create jobs and stimulate economic growth. The department has allowed South Africa to be the dumping ground of low-grade goods. International trade policies still allow goods that could be manufactured locally, such as chicken, to be imported.

The department fails to support small-scale sugar cane farmers by acquiring a milling machine. This indicates that the department lacks the understanding that through small scale farming, massive jobs can be created. We reject this budget as it does not contribute to job creation in a population where the youth remains unemployed.

We reject this department which has no aims of development, improved social equity and empowerment. It must be put on record that as long the government does not own means of production, such as land and minerals. Nationalise the banks

to be able to finance projects for the general masses of our people. The economy of this country will remain in the hands of the white people, and it will not grow! The EFF rejects this Budget Vote.

Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, I rise to welcome the three-pronged approach to addressing the challenges facing the country as articulated in Budget Vote 39 of the department and the Minister of Trade Industry and Competition. The focus on industrialisation, transformation and building a capable, ethical and developmental state is key to unlocking the potential of the SA economy. The approach of integrating the work of all three spheres of government through the district development model strengthens the capability of government to achieve its strategic objectives.

The emphasis on developing and providing support to special economic zones and revitalisation of industrial parks are key components of the ANC led governments approach to develop local, regional and rural economies. The success of the SEZs, like the Tshwane Automotive SEZ, ought to be replicated in particularly rural and underdeveloped provinces, such as Northern Cape, Eastern Cape and North West amongst others.

We welcome the approach taken by the TDIC to intensify its support for these provinces. It is from these under development provinces that we will have black industrialist emerge who will create the necessary jobs for the millions of unemployed people. This will structurally transform our economy through increased black, women and youth participation in the mainstream economy.

The budget further supports the success of the reimagined industrial strategy which is central to achieving the objectives of reducing unemployment, poverty and inequality, focusing on a central master plan in the development of globally competitive industries. These master plans are part of a concerted effort with the private sector to reinvest in the economy and create opportunities for SMMEs to participate in the productive sectors of our economy.

Some opposition parties in Parliament are rejecting this Bill. They prefer that our country should remain underdeveloped, poor poverty and grossly unequal. They do not want the vast majority of South Africans to participate in the mainstream economy – through the provisions of labour. These opposition parties are unpatriotic and unsympathetic to the poorest of the poor.

Those of us who were sent here to by the poor and working class will not waiver in the face of all these challenges. We will continue to struggle towards the transformation of our society for the benefit of all. In conclusion, I want to now thank you, hon Chairperson.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 40 – Transport – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 41 – Water and Sanitation - put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms C VISSER: Hon Chair, water is life. This is not a slogan reserved for environmentalists. It is a basic requirement to sustain all life and a needed commodity in a developmental state. Without water, mankind and plant kind will quickly become extinct.

We cannot undo the damage already done by bad governance caused by unaccountable leaders prioritising cadre

appointments in key positions and allowing fraud and corruption to become endemic in every aspect of the Department of Water and Sanitation’s management and administration, leaving many communities still without water and sanitation.
The department destroyed our streams, estuaries, rivers and dams, damaged our environments and is subjecting our communities to disease and an undignified life without enforcing legislation applicable in the National Water Act and the National Environmental Management Act. Water pollution is not just harmful, it is deadly. Mahatma Gandhi said:

The earth, the air, the land and the water are not an inheritance from our forefathers but on loan from our children. So we have to hand over to them at least as it was handed over to us.

Annually, budgets are presented with promises to develop infrastructure to improve the quality of life of South Africans, providing them with imaginable hope. But year after year, their hopes for a better and dignified life evaporates. The voice of the people begs to be answered. How can we trust you with any budget? We need water. The DA objects to Budget Vote 41. I thank you.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair, the EFF rejected this Budget Vote when it was debated earlier and we feel the need to reemphasise our position on the uselessness of this department. The department has failed to build water infrastructure capable of meeting the water demands of our growing economy. The people of Giyani, Dr J S Moroka, Thembisile Hani and Bushbuckridge have been without water for years despite the investments made in those parts of the country by the department.

We also bemoan the fact that the water boards that have been used as playgrounds for the ruling party’s patronage politics which have been factories for producing the most corrupt activities must be revamped and refocused on building water infrastructure and delivering water services. The pollution of our river systems, spillages of effluent and dysfunctional water waste treatment works and water treatment plants are daily occurrences in different parts of the country.

Today, there are still thousands of people in KwaZulu-Natal without reliable access to water after the devastating floods in that province. Two months later, there is no solution to that problem to make sure that people get water, Communities have resorted to getting their water tanks because they have

no water in the middle of this very cold winter. I thank you, House Chair.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Chair, almost every single bulk water supply service project since 2007 have either not been completed or was completed years after the plan, and in some certain projects have never even left the planning table. On the one hand, we hear that South Africa is a water-scarce country but on the other, for example, the Mangaung Metro admitted in February this year, that there was an average water loss of 46% of the total distributed and this was due to dilapidated infrastructure.

So clearly this department is not capable of providing the necessary infrastructure for the future when it cannot even maintain the infrastructure that was inherited. This whilst most South Africans still have no access to clean water in violation of their basic human right. This department under the ANC government has failed to ensure that every person in South Africa can enjoy their basic human right. ...
[Inaudible.] ... So instead of blaming everything and everyone from the weather conditions to global warming and even the past, this department must rather get its house in order with qualified and honest staff and officials to do what they are

paid to do. And that is the ensure water and sanitation for all. While the stench of raw sewerage hangs over the whole of South Africa, and the taps are empty in large parts of the country, this department cannot be trusted and this budget cannot be supported. Thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Water and Sanitation is one of the most important mandates in our country, to ensure the provision of safe and consistently running water to all communities. In fact, without water, there is no life. Unfortunately, vast quantities of the country’s water services are under stress, dilapidated and insufficient.

Our dependency on water does not lend itself to an unresponsive and slow response to the needs of our communities by the government. It means that we are to be proactive and continually improve service delivery in this regard. One of the major challenges of late has been seen in the province of KwaZulu-Natal and parts of the Eastern Cape, where flood damage exposed the inadequate attention to water infrastructure.

However, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape are not the only affected provinces. In Gauteng, it is reported that water leaks due to poor infrastructure result in the loss of more than half of all water. This loss is estimated to sit at approximately 500 million in one municipality. In the Eastern Cape, specifically in Nelson Mandela Bay, it is reported that there is a consistent reduction in dam storage capacity of water. It is bringing about an imminent Day Zero where residents will not be able to access any water.

The truth of the matter is that there was no maintenance plan for water reticulation infrastructure and implementation across the country. Short-term solutions only placed superficial Band-Aids on the problem. We need a greater commitment from this department and aggressive strategic plans to address the water shortage over long-term projects.

These projects must be informed by forwarding planning and exceed expected population demand. For example, in KwaZulu- Natal, there are losses of reticulated water of about 54%. The eThekwini council estimates that a comprehensive plan to fix and upgrade the reticulation process which includes everything from the pumping system down to the pipes requires a budget of about R1 billion per year, over 10 years.

This is only fixing the existing supply of water. We need to expand our water security far beyond what we need to immediately address sufficiently any unexpected demand. But the job is not done at this point either. Whilst we need to address our water losses and projected expansion plans, we need to unlock the potential of water being used as an income- generating tool.

The reality is that water is becoming a commodity around the world, and the rich countries are seizing the opportunity to become major providers of water. Likewise, if we plan sufficiently and act with urgency, we may be able to provide water solutions that drive business development, urbanisation and food security. A bright future begins with clean water.
The IFP supports the Vote. I thank you, Chair.

Mr E Z NJADU: Good afternoon, Chairperson, the ANC is in support of Budget Vote 41 - Water and Sanitation. Our responsibility in this House is to ensure that the department undertakes its work according to the prescripts of the law of our country. Ours is to ensure that the department realises the rights to sufficient water and adequate sanitation of our people. We stand here today to commend Minister Mchunu for decisively intervening in the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan

Municipality where the residents of the municipality are facing a possible Day Zero.

Our country is water-scarce. Therefore, we must encourage our people and businesses to take every reasonable step to conserve and use water economically. We welcome the initiatives by some local municipalities to decisively diversify their water sources to include groundwater. The department has announced in the Budget Vote that it will develop a regulation to guide municipalities in the extraction of groundwater and management of groundwater water use. We further acknowledge the policy intervention of the department to increase the storage capacity of our dams by raising dam walls in the various parts of the country. This initiative will not only result in water availability to communities but also has the potential to stimulate economic growth through increased agricultural activity, leading to job creation.

The department has acknowledged that there are challenges in the various water service authorities which are the coalface of providing quality drinking water and adequate sanitation infrastructure. The department has committed to giving the necessary support to water services authorities through

various interventions such as technical support and expanding its scope to support reticulation projects.

Lastly, the commitment by the department to ensure compliance with the Blue and Green Drop Programmes will go a long way to ensuring access to clean water and adequate sanitation. As the ANC, we declare our support for Budget Vote 41. Thank you very much, Chair.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES: 33: Bebee, L C; Camealio-Benjamin, V; Carrim, Y I; Cele, Z L I; Dangor, M; Dube-Ncube, N; Gillion, M N; Koloi, L; Lekganyane, N M; Lucas, S E; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mamaregane, M L; Mamarobelo, T; Maneng, N; Mkhatshwa, P V; Mkiva, Z; Mncube, B; Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Mmoiemang, K M; Moshodi, M L; Mthethwa, M E; Nchabeleng, M E; Njadu, Z; Ngwenya, W; Ntsube, I; Nyambi, J A; Rayi, M; Rosho, M Z; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S; Thabete, JL.

NOES: 20: Arnolds, A; Aucamp, W A S; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Du Toit, S F;

Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, SB; Londt, J J; Luthuli, S A; Mathevula, B; Michalakis, G; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Sileku, I; Smit, C B F; Visser, C; Zandamela, S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members and Permanent Delegates, I wish you a very good afternoon. I am honoured and humbled to be given this opportunity to table before this House, a report on the Appropriation Bill [B8 – 2022] on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations. The committee adopted the report, while the DA, FF Plus and the EFF rejected the Bill. Upon the tabling of the Bill by the Minister of Finance on 23 February 2022, the committee

received a thorough briefing on 25 May 2022 from Financial and Fiscal Commission and Parliamentary Budget Office on the Bill.

Public hearings were conducted on 31 May 2022 wherein, the Equal Education, Cosatu and the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants made submission. Having engaged on the process, the committee made some observations and recommendations on the following issues:

That the Presidency should table its monitoring report to Parliament on a quarterly basis detailing the performance and the expenditure of the Presidential Initiative Programme. We believe that this will assist Parliament to conduct oversight and closely monitor the implementation of the programme and ensure that corrective actions are taken timeously to ensure value for money.

Hon Chair, the Cabinet, together with the Treasury and the provincial Treasuries should pull the process in place through appropriate intergovernmental channels to resolve the issue of the national and provincial departments that owe municipalities. Notwithstanding the fact that accounting officers are responsible for cash management and following Treasury regulations and following Treasury regulations to pay

creditors within 30 days. A progress report should be tabled in Parliament by National Treasury in the next budget cycle.

We also recommended that the SA Police Service, SAPS should put proper systems in place to ensure that the allocated budget of just more than R100 billion for the 2022/23 financial year is spent effectively and value for money is achieved. That SAPS should expedite the process of constructing the three new police stations in Limpopo, the North West and the Northern Cape in the current financial year, as per the commitment.

The committee urges SAPS and the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to address any issues related to unnecessary delays, project management and lack of expenditure and performance. Most importantly, Treasury should continue to engage with the two departments to ensure smooth implementation of infrastructure projects and improved expenditure patterns. Parliament will continue to monitor progress in this regard.

We also recommended that the transferring officers of the Departments of Human Settlements and Cooperative Governance should expedite the process of requesting funding from the

Provincial and Municipal Housing Emergency Grants and the Provincial and Municipal Disaster Response Grants, respectively; to be released by National Treasury to deal with the effect of the floods in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape, as we have heard in the reports the previous weeks. We also made a recommendation that the Treasury should assist in expediting the process to ensure that the R1 billion available through these grants is released to assist the affected communities. Parliament, the KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape Provincial Legislatures should continue to monitor progress in this regard.

That the Competition Commission should expedite its research work related to uncompetitive behaviour among the producers of agricultural inputs. We believe that this exercise could assist government in bringing stability to the prices of fertiliser and fuel. But most importantly, it will help to ensure that there is value for money for the R7 billion allocated for the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp over the 2022/23 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.

The committee is of the view that maladministration, dysfunctionality and failure to spend allocated funds

effectively, should not be allowed to continue at the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas, and that Treasury and the Department of Higher Education and Training should monitor the situation closely and intervene where necessary to ensure that students from the poor working class are not disadvantaged by administrative inefficiencies.

Whilst the Committee welcomes and appreciates the submissions made by civil society organisations, it would like to encourage Saica, Cosatu, Equal Education and any other organisations to continue reaching out to various levels of government, including Parliamentary sector committees, to ensure that there is follow-up on specific sector policy issues.

The Department of Basic Education should ensure that proper financial management systems and plans are put in place for the R8,5 billion earmarked for the National School Nutrition Programme, NSNP to ensure efficient spending. This should eliminate any poor expenditure and poor quality of nutrition being provided to learners. Moreover, the department should also monitor closely how food is being provided to learners and whether value for money is achieved in this regard.

The Department of Health and the Mpumalanga Provincial Health Department should expedite the investigation into the complaints that patients at KwaMhlanga Hospital are required to collect medications from a pharmacy right next to the mortuary. Once the investigation is completed, the report should be shared with the committee. Parliament and the Mpumalanga Provincial Legislature should continue to monitor the progress made in this regard.

Whilst welcoming the R2,7 billion earmarked for the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, the committee believes that this allocation is inadequate given that connectivity in rural areas remains a big problem, affecting schools and other important public institutions, including the functioning of rural businesses and communities and that will include our food stalls.

That the Department of Co-operative Governance should ensure that proper financial management systems are put in place for the R111,6 billion earmarked for this vote. The department should ensure that the challenges facing municipalities, particularly those in financial distress, are addressed. The department should further ensure that the issues around national and provincial government departments owing

municipalities are addressed through the relevant channels, as well as the issue of municipalities owing Eskom. Parliament will continue to monitor and raise questions on this matter if it remains unresolved.

On my concluding remarks Chair, please allow me to thank all committee members irrespective of party affiliation, provincial committee members, committee stakeholders, media and the general public as well as the committee support staff for the commitment they have shown. The Committee recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted without amendments. I thank you very much.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr D R RYDER: House Chair, we are once again asked to approve a budget that has been set by the same poverty Cabinet that has brought us to this point where South Africa has record unemployment, rampant crime, poor education outcomes, failing local government, inadequate electricity supply, overcrowded prisons, an ill-equipped Defence Force, a demoralised and failed Police Service and a health system comprising burnt down hospitals and overworked staff. I can go on to each

department. Every measure that this government is responsible for shows inadequacy and failure.

Fellow members, we have all agreed in our various committees over the last few months and in our debates over the past few weeks that key projects need additional funding. Yet, here is this executive budget giving us more of the same. The best confirmation of this is the substantial increase in the appropriation to VIP protection, while ordinary South Africans are left to fend for themselves in increasingly desperate times as hunger and hopelessness take hold in a time of political instability. We are headed for another perfect storm, and yet the response is to stick to what has already failed, to double down and not revisit our spending.

However, it is no wonder, when our President can afford to lose a few million US dollars in a robbery and not bother to report it and when our Ministers are given wonderful houses and cars with security details to keep the ordinary people away from them. They are too out of touch with the realities on the ground.

We were promised an infrastructure-led recovery. That is not what we see here in this budget. We see wastage. Rather than

considering 100 metre flagpoles and fancy statues, let’s build catalytic infrastructure that works for our people. Name a new infrastructure project after a stalwart if you want to honour them.

We behave like victims of the budget when we have the power to influence it. Parliament must hold the executive to account.
We can do so by rejecting this poverty Cabinet’s poverty entrenching budget. The DA rejects this Appropriation Bill and we urge all other members in this House to do the same. And, if you ... [Inaudible.] ... woza [come] 2024. Thank you.


Mnr S F DU TOIT: Dankie, agb Voorsitter.


In this adjustment Appropriation Bill, money is spent that was not earned but taken.


Op die oomblik spandeer die regering geld wat hulle nie verdien het nie maar deur regiede wetgewing inwin. Betaal aan die keiser wat die keiser toekom, maar dan moet die keiser dit verdien en die koers moet billik wees.


Maybe it is because government did not earn taxpayers’ money that they so easily spend and allocate funds to the wrong priorities. Government is currently exercising selective oversight. Legislation dictates that taxes that are due must be paid and collected, or else. Legislation also dictates that no corruption, maladministration and fraudulent supply chain procedures can take place. Is that what’s really happening?

Report upon report on wasted funds, stolen money, misappropriated funds and irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure is received and debated, and then the investigations and redeployment starts. In the meantime, the humid air in KwaZulu-Natal is filled with clouds of smoke and anarchy. Millions is looted, lost and trampled. Reports confirm that politics is behind the turmoil, and again it is taxpayers’ money that must pay for this ANC’s power play.

Government then comes to the fore as the so-called saviour, availing R18,1 billion of taxpayers’ money towards the SA Special Risk Insurance Association, Sasria; an event that could have been avoided ... money that could have been allocated to build the country, and to alleviate hunger and poverty.

Money spent on COVID vaccines, vaccination programmes and COVID employment initiatives is concerning. It was noted that the actual expenditure of contracts entered into by the Department of Health to procure enough vaccines was
R7,4 billion and not R6,6 ... as initially estimated. Again, taxpayers had to pick up the bill.

Did taxpayers get value for money when all these funds were spent and only 30% of the population was vaccinated ... people that chose to be proactive in their approach? Chair, 70% of the population that exercised their right not to get vaccinated is still here, with natural antibodies.


Die geldbeurs raak kleiner, kommoditeite raak duurder en ’n groter deel van die bevolking raak afhanklik van die staat. Toedelings en die begroting kan nie meer net aan kaders oorgelaat word nie. Die VF Plus dring aan op verantwoordelike finansiële bestuur en gevolg bestuur.


Earn what you spend and be responsible. Hon Dikelede, with the greatest respect, I didn’t want to touch on the current disaster in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape, North West and

Northern Cape, but since you mentioned it, a request was posed to municipalities to tend to these disasters in their specific areas by reprioritising funds. No-one mentioned that three of these municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal were and are currently still under administration. You are focusing on the oversight role that the legislature must play. What oversight role can be played at the end of a financial year when there are no funds available and there is no service delivery in those areas. It wasn’t even there before the disaster struck, but yes, government must observe and play its oversight role. It is absurd the way in which things are being handled. You mentioned the R1 million that was promised that might be available after September 2022. Nowhere is mention being made of the R24 billion that might be needed to assist only in KwaZulu-Natal. However, we can discuss that on another day.


Die Minister van Finansies het ontken dat enige munisipaliteite aansoek om hulp vir hierdie rampverligting gedoen het.


As Margaret Thatcher said ... [Inaudible.] ... is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. This is something that the ANC must remember. Thank you, Chair.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Chairperson. The EFF rejects this budget. The Appropriation Bill ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... used by the Minister to allocate money to national departments ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, please!

Mr M S MOLETSANE: ... and its entities. All these budget cuts have a negative impact on our people. Our society is facing serious gender violence. It needs well-capacitated people to fight gender—based violence, GBV, but these budget cuts impact negatively on them.

The National Prosecuting Authority’s budget has been cut by almost R4 million and is expected to deal with high-profile cases. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, is closing more

and more payment points. People are expected to spend money

that they don’t have.

As the EFF, we don’t object to service delivery, but as the EFF, we object to the budget cuts. We need to do away with rubber-stamping the Treasury budget, and look at the needs of the people and change their lives. The EFF rejects this budget. Thank you, Chair.

Mr E Z NJADU: Sihlalo [House Chairperson], as the ANC, Appropriation Bill B7 - 2022, the key question for the NCOP, is how the allocations of the Appropriation Bill are going to assist the programmes of national departments and their entities in carrying out programmes in provinces and the local sphere of government to achieve economic and social recovery, jobs and relieve poverty.

The Appropriation Bill provides immediate support for the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, job creation and social protection. Allocations are aimed at funding economic relief measures to the most vulnerable while also supporting programmes that are contributing to South Africa’s economic recovery. These are facts.

The appropriation supports work on the challenges of unemployment, inequality, poverty through three pillars, namely: achieving a more capable state, driving a strong and inclusive economy; and building and strengthening the capabilities of South Africans. The Appropriation Bill also finances the Strategic Framework and its programmes, all of which we have oversight on as the National Council of Provinces.

The fundamental problem with opposition declarations is that they pick up on the latest topical issue, throw it into a declaration and think that it makes sense when the objective of the declaration on the Appropriation Bill is to speak to the mandate of the Bill, and whether what has been appropriated has in fact met the mandate.

For the NCOP the Bill allocates resources across the national sphere of government, 71% of these allocations going to transfers and subsidies. These are transfers to provinces, municipalities, public corporations and other nonprofit making entities. So, when the opposition says we reject the Appropriation Bill what they are saying is that provinces should not receive the necessary funding. The challenges of implementation, is the responsibility of our oversight which

we have to make sure happens and not blame the Appropriation Bill.

In reality, the Appropriation Bill is the lifeblood of ensuring our people receive services, support and provide the financial for comprehensive social protection. The stability of our provinces is tied up with the Appropriation Bill which covers all conditional grants. Sihlalo ngaphambili [House Chairperson in front], the ANC supports the Appropriation Bill B 7 – 2022. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N J Nyambi): Thank you, we now allow the 15 seconds to delegates who are outside the virtual platform to join the House.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The Council divided: [Take in from minutes.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with Section 75 of the Constitution.

The House Chairperson (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, allow me to take this opportunity to give it to the Chair of the NCOP, Ntate Masondo who started the business to deal with the concluding remarks and conclude the session of today. The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Ntate Masondo, hon Masondo.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Nyambi. At this point I will take this opportunity to present a statement on decorum of the House. Hon delegates I, therefore, wish to address you on the events that transpired during the sitting of 31 May 2022. I have since received correspondence from hon Michalakis expressing his dissatisfaction with the language used against him by some members of this House. I’ve also received the report from hon Ngwenya relating to the events. I’ve also been informed that there was an attempt by the Chief Whip in the subsequent sitting to deal with the matter in the House. Despite the efforts by the Chief Whip hon

Michalakis apparently remained aggrieved. I’ve also read the

transcript of the proceedings for that day.

Having read the transcript of the proceedings for that day, Deputy Minister of Human Settlements, Pam Tshwete, is on record apologising. This was confirmed by hon Ngwenya who was presiding on that day. Nothing more, therefore, need to be said in so far as the Deputy Minister is concerned. Hon Michalakis’ main complaint is that the statement directed to him was discriminatory. However, Ngwenya on the other hand is of the view that the conduct of some delegates undermine the authority of the presiding officer and portrayed her as lacking capacity as a presiding officer. The allegation which hon Michalakis repeats in his complaint, I do not think that any use of purpose will be served by attempting to ... [Inaudible.] ... the statements against each other, I shall, however, deal with some of the utterances in the cause of this statement. Although delegates enjoy the privilege of freedom of speech in the House and in its committees this privilege as we all know is, however, not absolute.

In terms of section 71(1)(a) of the Constitution freedom of speech may be exercised subject to the limitations imposed by the rules. As such, the privilege is subject to, amongst

others, the following Rules: Rule 61(1)(a) which prohibits delegates from using offensive or unbecoming language in the Council; Rule 50 which compels delegates to give precedence to the officer presiding during the proceedings; Rule 51 which authorises the officer presiding to order a delegate that is addressing the Chair to stop speaking if the delegate, despite warnings from the Chair persists in irrelevant or repetitive arguments; Rule 69 which set out in detail the procedure to be followed in raising points of order; Rule 69(7) which prohibits delegates from raising points of order in response to the ruling given by a presiding officer; Rule 69(12) in terms of the presiding officer’s ruling on the point of order is final and binding and may not be challenged or questioned in the House; Rule 69(13) which authorises the delegate who is aggrieved by the presiding officer’s ruling on a point of order to request that the principle or subject matter of the ruling be referred to the Rules Committee; and Rule 69(14) which authorises the Rules Committee to deal with the referral as it deems fit provided that it confines itself to the principles underlying or subject matter with the ruling concerned, but may not in any manner consider the specific ruling which is final and binding.

On the ruling, therefore, we have on several occasions ruled in this House that delegates are entitled to the privilege of freedom of speech there in the Council and its committees in accordance with Rule 45 of the Council Rules. Freedom of speech is one of the privileges accorded to Members of Parliament, the world over, to allow members to freely express their views and represent their constituencies without any external interference. It accords to both individual and a collective body of members. On a number of occasions in ... [Inaudible.] ... of Sixth Council presiding officers have ruled that no delegate may verbally abuse another delegate or cast personal aspersions or reflect the integrity of another delegate except by way of a substantive motion. If such allegations whether made directly or indirectly were to be generally allowed in debate in the House, there would not only seriously undermine delegates in the performance of their duties, but also impede the effectiveness of this House for function as the Constitution intended to. This approach is in keeping with the practice in other parliamentary jurisdictions.

I, therefore, wish to appeal to delegates not to abuse their freedom of speech and to refrain from making remarks which are offensive and clearly unparliamentary in terms of the rules.

Such remarks are neither worthy of the dignity of the House nor conducive to orderly an effective debate. In keeping with the decorum of the House, delegates are required to afford each other mutual respect by referring to an addressing one another in a respectful manner. I wish to caution delegates to not only familiarise themselves with the rules, but to ensure that they conduct themselves within the spirit and letter of the rules

Although the Deputy Minister apologised, statements made within the context of statements were clearly unparliamentary. Accusing the presiding officer of lying, questioning the capacity of the officer presiding by asking in the chat room “What are you doing in the position of the Chair?” were clearly intended to undermine the authority and impugn the integrity of the presiding officer. And arguing persistently with the officer presiding is in flagrant disregard of the rules.

In conclusion, there’s a clear procedure to be followed if a delegate feels aggrieved by the ruling of a presiding officer. It is worth repeating that any delegate who felt aggrieved by the ruling was at liberty to follow the procedural outlined in Rule 69(13) delegates are, therefore, not without remedy. I,

therefore, call upon all delegates to co-operate with the presiding officers to uphold the decorum of the House at all times irrespective of the circumstances and to conduct themselves within the constraints of the Constitution and the rules.

In terms of this statement we hope that today we shall have provided some guidance and that, indeed, all of us collectively will seek at all times to protect and maintain the decorum of the House. On that note, I thank you very much, and looking forward to us in co-operating and working together as we move into the future. Having done so, hon members, that concludes the business of the House. Therefore, I wish to thank all permanent and special delegates for availing themselves to be part of this sitting. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The Council adjourned at 16:39.