Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 10 Jun 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
FRIDAY, 10 JUNE 2022
Watch: Plenary
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSION OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 10:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members. May I have your attention, please. Thank you very much. Hon members, I noted that yesterday it took us exactly an hour and ten minutes before we could start with the business of Parliament. Echo!
Can you hear me now? Is there still echo! There seem to be a problem with our information technology, IT, systems. I am sure during recess all of those things will be dealt with.
However, hon members, I noted with a heavy heart I should say, that it took us an hour and ten minutes before we could start with the real business of the day. Now, there are certain Rules I want to draw your attention to, which you are quite familiar with. That is; on points of order, Rule 92(1) A
member may raise a point of order at any time during the proceedings of the House in terms of the procedures prescribed in Rule 66 by stating that he or she is rising on a point of order. That is the first thing I would like to remind everybody on.
A point of order must be confined only to a matter of parliamentary procedure or practice or a matter relating to unparliamentary conduct as defined and must be raised immediately when the alleged breach of conduct occurs; that is Rule 92(2). Now, please, note this; no other member may raise another point of order before the presiding officer has ruled on the first point of order, that is Rule 92(7). No member may raise a point of order again, again, on a similar point of order if the presiding officer ruled that it is not a point of order or that the matter is out of order, which is Rule 92(8).
Members may not disrupt proceedings by raising points of orders that do not comply with the Rules. A presiding officer’s ruling on a point of order is final, binding and may not be challenged or questioned in the House, this is now Rule 92(11). Now, hon members, I am reading all this because I
would want to ensure that there is no disorder in the House today. Hon members, it makes it very difficult for the presiding officer when everybody is up on their feet and raising their hand whilst the presiding officer is yet to deal with the first point of order. It makes things difficult.
I want to all of us that with all the differences that we may be having, it is important for us to maintain the decorum of the House. I am appealing to all of us, hon members. It is important that we maintain the decorum of the House! On that note, hon members, I hope that I am understood and that hon members will conduct themselves like real hon members should.
I thank you, hon members, for your attention.
Hon members, in the interest of safety for all present in the Chamber, may I remind you to keep your masks on and sit in your designated area. Thank you. The secretary will read the Order of the day.
RESUMPTION OF DEBATE ON VOTE NO 1: THE PRESIDENCY - REPLY BY
PRESIDENT
(Appropriation Bill)
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker of the National
Assembly; Deputy President, David Dabede ... [Interjections.]
...
Mr S TAMBO: ... on a point of order! ...
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... who is on the virtual
platform ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... on a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes. There is a point of order, thank you.
Mr S TAMBO: Thank you, Speaker. I rise in terms of Rule 92. I
think in terms of also being compliant ...
The SPEAKER: ... bring your microphone closer.
Mr S TAMBO: In terms of being compliant with your request that there must be order in the House I will request your patience and indulgence as I read what premises my point of order.
The SPEAKER: Yes.
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Mr S TAMBO: So, I will begin by quoting the Constitution,
Schedule 2, so that you have a better understanding of what
point of order I am rising on and I am taking extracts from
that and it reads as follows:
In the presence of everyone assembled here and in full
realisation of the high calling I assume as President of the
Republic of South Africa, I, solemnly affirm that I will be
faithful to the Republic of South Africa, and will obey,
observe, uphold and maintain the Constitution and all other
laws of the Republic; and I solemnly and sincerely promise
that I will always –
• promote all that will advance the Republic, and oppose
all that may harm it;
• protect and promote the rights of all South Africans;
• discharge my duties with all my strength and talents to
the best of my knowledge and ability and true to the
dictates of my conscience;
• do justice to all; and
• devote myself to the well-being of the Republic and all
of its people.
(In the case of an oath: So help me God)
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Speaker, I read this Oath because the President of the
Republic of South Africa has been charged with Combating of
Corrupt Activities Act ... [Interjections.] ... contravening
... Speaker! Can I be protected ...
An HON MEMBER: ... no, there is no charge ...
An Hon MEMBER: ... leave the House ... you must leave the
House ...
An HON MEMBER: ... no charge ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon members ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... Speaker, am I protected ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon members, there is a point of order. Hon
Mazzone ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... on top of my order, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: ... no!
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Mr S TAMBO: You said an order can’t be raised on top of an
order. This is an order. Can I, please, be allowed to finish,
please.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, Tambo ... hon Tambo ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... this is disorder that you are causing ...
The SPEAKER: ... no, I will not cause disorder, I can assure
you. However, hon Tambo, with all due respect, I actually gave
you time to read your point of order ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... no, but my point of order was not finished, I
have not finished, Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: ... and you have quoted from the Constitution ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... now, my point of order is coming ...
The SPEAKER: ... okay, say your point of order then.
Mr S TAMBO: Yes. The President of the Republic of South Africa
has been charged with contravening Combating of Corrupt
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Activities Act, with contravening the organised crime Act due
to money laundering ...
The SPEAKER: ... now, there rise as a point of order, hon
Mazzone ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... and we are saying, we don’t want to be
complicit, to be complicit with the legal activities that ...
[Inaudible.] ... allowing the President to address us ...
[Inaudible.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are actually ... hon member, you
did not finish your Rule 92. You said, you want to do this in
terms of Rule 92. You then went on to read that aspect which
is very important to all of us who are here, we were all sworn
to that from the Constitution. However, you did not finish
your Rule 92(1) of that which actually says; a member may
raise a point of order at any time during the proceedings of
the House in terms of the procedure prescribed in Rule 66 by
stating what he or she is rising on, which is what I was
reading earlier on.
It then says; a point of order must be confined only, only, to
a matter of parliamentary procedure ...
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Mr S TAMBO: ... Speaker, is it parliamentary to be addressed
by someone who is charged with money laundering?
The SPEAKER: ... no, allow me ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... is it parliamentary to be addressed by someone
who is charged with money laundering ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon member ... now ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... kidnapping, bribery ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon member ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... torture, concealing a crime, laundering money.
How is that parliamentary?
The SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... you are repeating the same mistake today under
Jacob Zuma and it will come back and bite you.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, in terms of Rule 85, no member ...
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Mr S TAMBO: ... you are repeating the same mistake today by
defending someone who has been charged with criminal
activities ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon member, in terms of Rule 85; no member
may impute ... hon member, don’t do that ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... up until the end ...
The SPEAKER: ... I am talking, I am on the floor, hon Tambo!
Mr S TAMBO: ... [Inaudible.] ... to be complicit, you want us
to be complicit ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon Tambo, I am on the floor, I am on the
floor! ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... [Inaudible.] ... illegal activities ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon Tambo! Hon member, I am on the floor ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... [Inaudible.] ... no, it is wrong, you must
know what you are asking about.
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The SPEAKER: Hey, you will not disrupt the House, I can assure
you ...
Mr S TAMBO: ... I am not disrupting the House I am saying you
are asking the President who has been charged with gross
misconduct to address us ...
The SPEAKER: ... hon Chief Whip ... [Interjections.] ... you
are not going to disrupt the House, hon Tambo. You are
actually disregarding my authority. Yes, Chief Whip, hon
Mazzone.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, if I may rise
on Rule 65 of the Rules Book, read together with Rule 77 ...
[Interjections.] ... it does not matter what the President has
done at any given time. The relevance of the President being
here today is to respond to questions and motions that were
posed to him yesterday. So, that’s the relevance. Then, in
terms of the section 77, we talk about gross disorder. When
the Speaker of the House tells you to take your seat or has
explained to you that you are standing on an incorrect point
of order, you have a duty which you have agreed to and it
stands in the Rules and guidelines of Parliament, to take your
seat and then remain quiet.
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So, Madam Speaker, I would like you to please rule on Rule 65
read together with Rule 77 because I believe that both points
of order were irrelevant and they are now causing gross
misconduct in the House.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon ... [Interjections.] ...
hon Tambo ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr S TAMBO: Speaker, may I address you?
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo, you are not going to address me. Sit
down. Take your seat. You are not going to address me because
you have not allowed me to address you, hon member. You have
not. So allow me to address you. And my point is to you, hon
member. As you raise your point of order, you should not in
any way make reflections upon the President or any other
Members of Parliament. And this is what you are doing. Your
point of order, when you started, I allowed you to speak
because you said you wanted to speak on Rule 92. You went on,
you read the Constitution which was very good. And I allowed
you, I allowed you time. And after you have done that, you are
now making reflections on people in the National Assembly.
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And I am saying, I cannot allow that because that is out of
order. That is out of order.
Mr S TAMBO: May I clarify, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: You are not going to clarify that.
[Interjections.]
Mr S TAMBO: No, but you have made a ruling that I think is
inconsistent with what I was saying.
The SPEAKER: And in addition ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr S TAMBO: In terms of what I was going to say, Speaker, you
have not followed what I was saying.
The SPEAKER: No, I followed what you are saying.
[Interjections.]
Mr S TAMBO: We wanted to take our time.
The SPEAKER: Hon Dlakude?
Mr S TAMBO: Speaker!
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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: But Speaker, can you also note that we are
also here in Parliament as well on the virtual platform? We
have called order here.
The SPEAKER: Okay! Okay, hon Mkhaliphi. Hon Tambo ...
[Interjections.] ...
Mr S TAMBO: I took my time to explain the Constitution and
there is no limit to a point of order.
The SPEAKER: You took your time. And I took my time to explain
the Rules to you.
Mr S TAMBO: The people at home need to understand what we are
saying the President has done.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo!
Mr S TAMBO: We need to explain to the people of South Africa
that the President has laundered money.
The SPEAKER: You are causing disorder in the House.
Mr S TAMBO: Why are you limiting us from that?
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The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo, you are causing disorder in the House.
And I am warning you now because when I address you, you
should not talk while I address you in terms of the Rules.
Yes, hon Dlakude?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Speaker ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: It is a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I stand on a
point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, it is a point of order, right? It
is a point of order but you are not going to scream. You are
not going to scream.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: But how do you know it is a point of order?
How do you know it is a point of order, Speaker? How do you
know that?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I
have a point of order. I am standing on Rule 69, point of
order Rule 69 (c) and (d) that reads:
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Rpeatedly undermining the authority of the Presiding Officer
or repeatedly refusing to obey rulings of the presiding
officer or repeatedly disrespecting and interrupting the
Presiding Officer while the latter is addressing the House;
No member may persist, “in making serious allegations against
a member without adequate substantiation or following the
correct procedure.” The issue that the hon Tambo is raising,
hon Speaker, has not been tested anywhere. The President has
not been arrested. The President has not appeared before a
court of law. The President has not been charged anywhere. So
can we please not put the cart before the horse. Let us allow
the proper processes to be followed.
Let us allow the law enforcement agencies to do their work. As
Parliament, we are not trained to do that. The President
agreed that he will subject himself to any process. So let us
allow that. It is the Rules saying that, hon Speaker. Thank
you very much.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Dlakude. Hon Dlakude, thank you.
[Interjections.] No, no! Hold on, hon members. I am not going
to have anyone disrupting this session, not again. Not again.
Hon member Tambo, I am now giving you a formal warning. You
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will not do what you have done again. We now proceed with the
business at the time.
Mr S TAMBO: May I ask a question, Speaker? [Interjections.]
Did you make any ruling? But, Speaker, can I be protected? I
want clarity.
The SPEAKER: You are protected, hon Tambo.
Mr S TAMBO: The previous speaker says I have violated your
ruling. Can you clarify if you made any ruling in terms of the
utterances I have made?
The SPEAKER: You have violated the Rule because as I was
addressing you, right, you continued to speak. I have given
you an opportunity to address me in the same way that I came
in here and addressed all the hon members, I gave you an
opportunity. And even though I gave you an opportunity, when I
tried to stop you now when you were making reflections on
Members of Parliament, you continued to speak. And I said it
cannot be.
So I am now, correctly so, giving you a warning. Hon members,
I now have hon ... [Interjections.] ... Uh-uh! Uh-uh! Hon
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Ntlangwini, you and I have had a chat. You are not going to do
those things that the two of us have spoken about. Hon
Mkhaliphi, on the virtual platform?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Speaker, I have a point of order. Thank you
very much for recognising me. Hon Speaker, I think you are
very unfair to hon Tambo. You are disturbing him while he is
following the Rules, he is quoting Rule 92 (1) which he is
protected by and when he is articulating his point of order
and quoting the Constitution, you allow hon Mazzone, I do not
want to say, hon Mazzone, Ms Mazzone, you do not disturb her
... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhaliphi ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... but I am still speaking, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: In terms of the same Rule 85, “No member may
impute improper motives to any other member, or cast ...
[Interjections.] ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: But I have not finished. That is your
problem, Speaker
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The SPEAKER: No, wait! Allow me to speak.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: To speak on what because you have not heard
my point of order?
The SPEAKER: ... personal reflections ... [Interjections.] ...
That is what the hon Tambo has just done. And this is what I
am trying to stop you from doing.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, it is just that you are impatient. You
are not listening to us. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon Mkhaliphi.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, just give us a chance, Speaker. Do not
be like your predecessor Baleka. You must not be impatient.
You must preside over this House. Do not be impatient. We are
making points of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhaliphi, I am now warning you. Hon
Mkhaliphi, I have warned you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: On what now?
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The SPEAKER: I am saying to you I have ruled on hon Tambo’s
statement, now you are challenging, both yourself and the hon
Tambo, are challenging my ruling.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I wanted clarity. I am not challenging your
ruling. I am saying ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: No! You are.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, just listen for a second, Speaker. ...
while he was on the platform, you allowed Mazzone to disturb
him while he was articulating in terms of the Constitution.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mazzone!
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: So you, Speaker, now you do not respect the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa? Are you allowing
a President that has violated the Constitution ...
[Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon, I am now giving you a second warning. I am
giving you a second warning.
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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Just clarify that small part. South Africans
want to know you have thrown out the Constitution of the
Republic, Speaker. Just clarify that little part, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: You are out of order and because you are out of
order, and you have refused to listen, I am now removing you
from the platform.
Mr V PAMBO: No, no, Speaker, you cannot do that. It cannot be
that the only intervention is a warning.
The SPEAKER: Let us proceed. Hon Pambo!
Mr V PAMBO: Speaker, please listen to us.
The SPEAKER: Hon Pambo, I have not recognised you. And by the
way, I did say that no other member may raise another point of
order before the Presiding Officer has ruled on the first one.
Mr V PAMBO: I did not call for a point of order.
The SPEAKER: No! You are not going to force me to recognise
you. There are other hands in the Chamber here.
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Mr V PAMBO: No problem. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Pambo. Omphile Maotwe! Omphile, the hon
member, do not do that. Hon members, just treat us with
respect here in this Chamber. There must be mutual respect
among us members. Do not scream at us. [Interjections.] Hon
Mente, I recognise you.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Please recognise us. That is all we are
asking.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mente, I recognise you. Hon Omphile, I have
not recognised you and I am warning you now. I am warning you
and I am going to throw you out. Hon Mente?
Ms N V MENTE: Speaker, I have a point of order. I am rising on
Rule 92 (1), Speaker, one, I think you should also be cautious
about what you say because now you are intimidating us. You
have just thrown out, hon Mkhaliphi when she did not say
anything but sought clarity. Yesterday you did the same thing
and men were manhandling hon Babalwa Mathulela, men. They were
sexually harassing hon Babalwa Mathulela.
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The SPEAKER: Hon Mente! Hon Mente, I have made a ruling. I am
not harassing you. I have made a ruling. Hon Mente, with all
due respect, I have made a ruling and you are not going to
challenge my ruling. [Interjections.]
Ms N V MENTE: We are not challenging your ruling.
The SPEAKER: I will now proceed. You are doing exactly what
you did yesterday. You are again trying to prevent the
business of the House from continuing. I am recognising other
points of order. [Interjections.] Yes, you will come after hon
Mmamoloko.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Speaker, I have a point of
order. I rise in terms of Rule 6 which gives the Speaker the
responsibility to frame a ruling which cannot be challenged
until a sitting of the Rules Committee can make a
recommendation to the House. I want to say, hon Speaker, since
you have framed a ruling at the beginning of the sitting ...
[Interjections.] ...
IsiZulu:
Ngizokuphendula wena.
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English:
... meaning once you have done that, no other member is
allowed to stand and make reference to a matter that you have
already ruled on which relates to the President and the Phala
Phala farm. So what we are requesting, Madam Speaker is that
because of the framing and the Rule that gives you that
framing responsibility the only time any member can rise on
that matter is after a sitting of the Rules Committee. Meaning
that no other member during this proceeding can stand on that
point of order and that you can immediately make a ruling to
even take them out immediately without having to listen to
that member. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Hon Kubayi, you are correct. There is that
provision, however, hon members, for now, there is no basis
for me to use that Rule. I will use that Rule when the time
comes for it to be necessary for me to do so. For now, there
is no basis for that. Hon members, I will take hon Shivambu
from the virtual platform.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, I have a point of order. There is no
Rule that permits you – none whatsoever – to suspend the Rules
of the National Assembly. The Rules of the National Assembly
are permanently and perpetually applicable as long as there is
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a sitting of the National Assembly. There is nowhere in the
Rules that gives you the power
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I have not suspended the Rules of
the National Assembly.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Now the point of order that I am raising ...
[Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: There is no point of order, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please listen. Can you please listen?
The SPEAKER: I am listening. You should listen too.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is, yesterday you called
those rascals called the Parliamentary Protection Services to
sexually harass Members of Parliament.
The SPEAKER: I called you rascals? What are you talking about?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Listen first. Listen first. Be patient.
The SPEAKER: You are out of order man.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You called in the security guards yesterday
...
The SPEAKER: You are out of order.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... you called in male security guards
yesterday to come in and harass Members of Parliament
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I am warning you now.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please listen?
The SPEAKER: I am giving you a warning.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: A warning for what?
The SPEAKER: Because there is no point of order.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But listen first. Listen to the point of
order first.
Mr S TAMBO: Speaker, I have a point of order. You are ill-
treating people who are on the virtual platform.
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The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Tambo.
Mr S TAMBO: But you are ill-treating people on the virtual
platform.
The SPEAKER: I am not ill-treating them.
Mr S TAMBO: Because you do not give them time to finish.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo!
Mr S TAMBO: No, it is wrong.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo, take your seat.
Mr S TAMBO: We are part of the National Assembly.
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Tambo.
Mr S TAMBO: It is wrong what you are doing. It is wrong.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Tambo.
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Mr S TAMBO: Allow the hon Shivambu to finish his point of
order. No man.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo! Hon Tambo!
Mr S TAMBO: The people on the virtual platform you are abusing
them.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo, take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon
Gungubele?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Speaker. I
thought in terms of the same Rule 6 your indulgence is backed
that the basis for its execution has always been there. A
number of these members ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr V PAMBO: Pointing fingers, Speaker is unparliamentary. He
must not be pointing fingers at us.
The SPEAKER: Okay withdraw this ...
Mr V PAMBO: Withdraw your finger!
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... in terms of Rule 6. They
have continued to undermine the frame for the very ...
[Interjections.] ...
Mr V PAMBO: Gungubele is pulling a middle finger at us as
Members of Parliament, Speaker?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... is actually undermining
Rule 6. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon members, thank you.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hold on!
Mr K CEZA: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: May I clarify something to all of you, all of
you. I am sitting here I am a presiding officer. I’ve got the
rules here. And at some time, I have to consult with the table
officers because they are more familiar with the rules than
all of us here. And I take their advice very seriously. I am
saying therefore, it is not yet the time for me to use Rule 6
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because there are rules under which we are still basing my
facts on ... [Interjections.] ...
IsiXhosa:
kanti siyaya ...
English:
... we are going to finish this debate. I can assure you.
IsiXhosa:
Siyaya...
English:
... somewhere. The ultimate will be that the President will
read his response and we will then finish and adjourn the
meeting. You are not going to do what you did yesterday in
fact ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr K CEZA: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: You did not raise your hand.
Mr K CEZA: I did.
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The SPEAKER: You do not appear on my system you just barged
in.
Mr K CEZA: I did hon Speaker. Can you be patient with us
Speaker please?
The SPEAKER: Hon Primrose, hon Msane, you are not going to
barge in I am addressing the assembly.
Ms N P SONTI: Hon Speaker,
IsiZulu:
Ngicela ukukhuluma bandla?
The SPEAKER: This is my second warning to you ...
IsiZulu:
... phinda futhi...
Ms N P SONTI: Hon Speaker,
IsiXhosa:
Ndicela ukuthetha?
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The SPEAKER: Hon Primrose, I have now removed you from the
system.
Ms N P SONTI: For what?
IsiXhosa:
... Ndicela ukuthetha.
Mr K CEZA: I rise on a point of order Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Ceza.
Mr K CEZA: I want to remind you what the Constitution is
saying on section 10, the Bill of Rights. It says that
“Everyone has a right to dignity and that dignity must be
protected.” I want you to clarify to us which dignity did you
protect yesterday ...
IsiXhosa:
... xa abantu bebebanjwa ngaphantsi, bebanjwa ngamabele. Iza
kubanjani le nto enqileni sisayilungisa ...
English:
... in a patriarchal society like ours?
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IsiXhosa:
Iza kuba njani Somlomo? Sicela ucacise apho. Makhe sidlule nje
apho kuqala.
The SPEAKER: ... I am now giving you a warning for the second
time ...
IsiZulu:
... phinda futhi. Phinda futhi.
English:
Mr V MPAMBO: How are we expecting to participate when you are
threatening us like that?
The SPEAKER: Don’t do that. Hon Ponani, what are you saying?
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: I rise on Rule no 68. That speaks
on irrelevance or reputation Speaker. “The Presiding Officer
may order a member addressing the House to stop speaking if
that member despite warnings from the Chair persists in
irrelevant or repetitive arguments.” Since we started at 10h00
the hon members have been ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much hon Ponani. Take your seat.
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Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: Thank you, Chairperson.
The SPEAKER: I will now recognise you, hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thanks very much Speaker. Speaker, you
can’t be doing that. You don’t allow our members to finish
their points of orders. I mean, how do you anticipate what the
member is gonna say? You are not a Sangoma. Let our members
finish making their point of orders. You are not even allowing
me to finish ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Wait a minute. Hon member, if an hon member right
from the beginning in his or her opening statements ...
[Interjections.] ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... You can’t!
The SPEAKER: ... No, hon member I can.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: You can’t.
The SPEAKER: Sit down, hon member. You are done, sit down.
Thank you. Hon members, we continue.
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Ms N N CHIRWA: On a point of order!
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, wait a minute.
Ms P MARAIS: Speaker, the problem that we are having here is
that you are threatening people that you are going to remove
them. You can’t just remove people. Yesterday people were
removed and they got hurt because ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Take a seat hon member! I am the only one who is
presiding here ... [Interjections.] ...
Ms P MARAIS: ... No, you are bias, Speaker. ...
[Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: ... Okay you continue; I am warning you. Take a
seat.
Ms P MARAIS: ... No, no, no, Speaker you are not doing right
...
The SPEAKER: I am warning you for the second time. Take a
seat!
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Ms P MARAIS: ... not like that ...
The SPEAKER: Honourable ... Alright
Ms P MARAIS: Why are you saying that?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, will you please leave the House! Hon
Marais leave the House. Sergeant-at-arms will you please
assist hon Marais to leave the House ...
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker!
Ms N N CHIRWA: Point of order Speaker
The SPEAKER: Hon Marais leave the House!
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon Marais leave the House
Ms N N CHIRWA: Point of order Speaker
AN HON MEMBER: Hhayi bo Speaker
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The SPEAKER: Sergeant-at-arms will you please assist hon
Marais to leave the House
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker!
Ms P MARAIS: ... the men are touching our private parts. You
must bring women to remove us not men. We will make a case
against you, ...
Mr S TAMBO: Inaudible.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon Dlakude.
Setswana:
LELOKO LE LE TLOTLEGANG: Ijo! Jaanong nna ke dirileng, ka gore
ga ke a bua sepe?
English:
Ms D DLAKUDE: Thank you very much hon Speaker.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: My hand has been up for over 20minutes now
Speaker.
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Ms D E DLAKUDE: Thank you very much hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you very much hon Marais. You have
raised something very important that I was not aware of. I
wasn’t aware that the Parliamentary Protection Service touched
your private parts. As a woman I would not allow that but I am
appealing with you to leave the House.
Ms P MARAIS: You are a woman but you are allowing men to touch
our private parts.
The SPEAKER: No, leave the House.
Ms P MARAIS: ... you must be ashamed of yourself.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: I am now calling the parliamentary protection
service to remove you.
Ms N N CHIRWA: You are being disingenuous in this moment by
saying you did not know.
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Ms O M C MAOTWE: Speaker, we are not going to be touched by
men here. No security is going to touch our women.
Setswana:
Mr P M P MODISE: Le maaka. Le ditsotsi lona.
Ms T P MSANE: That is why you become rapists because you deny.
Ms N TAFENI: Don’t be emotional Speaker. Protect.
The SPEAKER: I am not emotional.
HON MEMBERS: Inaudible.
Mr P M P MODISE: These ones are not males. Out! Out!
Ms N CHIRWA: My hand has been up for 20minutes. Point of order
Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes.
Ms N CHIRWA: I am rising on Rule no 26(2). As Speaker, amongst
some of your responsibilities. You have the responsibility to
uphold the dignity of the House. And we are conveying a
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message to you telling you that EFF women MPs yesterday were
sexually harassed. We are telling you for the fourth time now
and you have ignored these constant calls alerting to you as a
Speaker who is a woman. That women in this House were sexually
harassed by the security you called on them. And you are doing
it again by ignoring us and also acting very harsh to women
MPs in this House. How many men have stood and disturbed you?
You don’t throw them out. How many men have been disturbing
you online, you didn’t throw them out? When it’s a woman, you
mute them and take them out and you call security on them
because you are anti-women ... [Interjections.] ...
AN HON MEMBER: Women must behave.
Ms N CHIRWA: ... because you are doing us a favour.
The SPEAKER: Hon Chirwa, I have now warned you twice. And I
just want to say something. I think for the sake of the
integrity and the dignity of this House. Hon Chirwa, you said
one, hon Marais raised my attention to the fact that she
doesn’t want to be removed here by a man because they sexually
harassed them ...
IsiXhosa:
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Thula ke ngoku thula.
English:
And I have said women should come in and remove her ...
[Interjections.] ...
Mr V MPAMBO: Speaker, “Thula” is tantamount to saying shut up.
You can’t say thula.
The SPEAKER: ... to accuse me on allowing for sexual
harassment of women, you are wrong.
Ms N CHIRWA: We going to ask you for the last time Speaker.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: It’s your fault, Speaker. It’s your fault.
The SPEAKER: I have now warned you. Please leave the House.
Leave the House, hon Chirwa.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: But Speaker you can’t do that. You can’t do
what you are doing Speaker.
She’s got the right to raise a point of order. And she is
raising a very important issue. Why are you throwing her out?
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Ms T P MSANE: Even us, from the Virtual platform we are not
recognised.
The SPEAKER: Let me just finish with hon Chirwa.
AN HON MEMBER: I have been raising my hand but you don’t allow
me to raise my point of order.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much hon Chirwa for leaving the
House. What are you doing Tambo?
Ms N CHIRWA: You see; you are doing it again. You call a man
on me again!
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo!
Ms N CHIRWA: You are doing it again Speaker calling men to
come and handle us in this House. You are not upholding the
dignity of this House.
The SPEAKER: You are obstructing the House.
Ms N CHIRWA: You are not doing us a favour by allowing us to
speak in this House. We are telling you a very important issue
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that we are being sexually harassed under your watch. And you
are letting it happen. As a woman Speaker in this country, you
are not lenient to women MPs. You kick us out very quickly.
You mute us on the Zoom platform but you do nothing to the men
in this House ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Tambo and hon Chirwa I am removing you now
... [Interjections.] ...
Ms N CHIRWA: ... you are trying to cover up because I am
telling you that you are lenient on men. Now you want to
remove Tambo. What did he do? He did nothing. You said they
must remove me ...
IsiZulu:
... Ungenaphi uTambo, Somlomo?
English:
... It’s because you can see that what I’m telling you is the
truth. You are lenient on men and you are very disingenuous
... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: ... physically intervened ... [Interjections.]
...
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Ms N CHIRWA: ... your legacy will be that you allowed gender-
based violence to happen to women MPs under your watch. That
will be your legacy. The very same way it was the legacy of
Baleka Mbete, protecting a man who himself is accused of
torturing a woman on his farm. You are not different from him.
IsiZulu:
Niyafana ncamashi ...
Ms M C DIKGALE: Take her our hon Speaker.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Heyi, phumani nobabini phumani.
English:
Ms N CHIRWA: This is your legacy.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Phumani.
AN HON MEMBER: Phumani.
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: And your legacy is disrespect ...
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IsiZulu:
... wena Naledi.
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Ungenaphi ke wena? Ungenaphi?
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni!
IsiZulu:
Ngubani nguChafeni?
English:
Will you help me with the names? The one who was pouring water
now.
AN HON MEMBER: You are perpetuating the harassment of women.
Shame on you Speaker!
IsiXhosa:
ILUNGA ELIHLOPHEKILEYO: Thetha thetha.
The SPEAKER: Any member who is interfering with the removal of
those who are instructed to go out ... [Interjections.] ...
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Ms O M C MAOTWE: Speaker, why are male security officers
touching female MPs?
AN HON MEMBER: You will account with this Speaker you will
account. You will account for this chaos you have started. You
are repeating what Baleka Mbete has done. Shame on you!
AN HON MEMBER: Speaker, you are doing all this to protect a
money launderer ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Mathulelwa!
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: But you also can’t ... [Inaudible.]
... to insult the Speaker.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Which insults? What is an insult?
An HON MEMBER: ... down on record Speaker.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... that men are touching women’s breasts
and bums. And our private parts? You call that ...
[Inaudible.] ...
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The SPEAKER: Hon members, as I read your names, hon Tafeni,
hon Mkhonto and hon Mathulelwa those hon members must leave
the House ... [Interjections.] ...
IsiZulu:
MS B T MATHULELWA: Benzeni, Somlomo.
English:
What did they do?
The SPEAKER: Rule 73(5), for obstructing the removal of
members from the House. Hon members, leave the House.
Ms N V MENTE: What did she do?
The SPEAKER: Hon members, leave the House.
AN HON MEMBER: Which rule are u using? Which rule?
AN HON MEMBER: You will account for this Speaker. You will
account!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, will you now leave the House.
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AN HON MEMBER: It is Cyril who must leave the House. It is the
money launderer who must leave the House.
The SPEAKER: Sergeant-at-arms, will you please take out hon
Mathulelwa, hon Mkhonto and hon Tafeni.
IsiZulu:
Ms N V MENTE: Benzeni, Somlomo.
English:
What did they do?
The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhonto is out, hon Mathulelwa and hon
Tafeni.
AN HON MEMBER: Point of order Speaker!
AN HON MEMBER: The Marikana murderer must also leave the
House.
AN HON MEMBER: You are not a woman Speaker you are a male.
The SPEAKER: ... because you poured people with water. You
opened a bottle of water.
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AN HON MEMBER: The murderer of Marikana people must also leave
the House.
The SPEAKER: I said they must leave. Invite the Parliament
Protection Service, PSS, to remove them. Ladies, ladies.
Invite the women from the PSS to remove the women.
Mr V PAMBO: Today you remember that women must only be removed
by women. Only today!
The SPEAKER: Hon members lower your hands because once I have
made a ruling on a member I have to make sure that the member
... [Interjections] ...
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngeke sizehlise izandla, lalela into
esiyishoyo thina. Ngeke sizehlise izandla khululeka nje.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I now suspend the business of the
House ... [Interjections] ...
Ms N V MENTE: You dare kick Babalwa again!
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The SPEAKER: I now suspend the business of the House. And hon
Whips you please come together here.
AN HON MEMBER: You must suspend Cyril. Suspend the money
launderer.
AN HON MEMBER: You must suspend all the EFF.
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections] ...
AN HON MEMBER: Amandla!
The SPEAKER: ... we are suspending business of the House and
Whips will you please consult.
Business suspended at 10:49
Business resumed at 11:53
The SPEAKER: Hon members, order. Thank you very much. Let me
start by apologising to you for adjourning this sitting in the
manner in which we did. All of us expected that by now we will
be done with our work. However, in terms of the powers vested
in me, I had to apply Rule 77, because it allows me that in
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the event of the grave disorder at a meeting the presiding
officer may adjourn a meeting or may suspend the proceedings
for a period stated by him or her. That is what we have just
done.
Hon members, I am going to allow parties to speak and each
party will have a minute to do so.
However, I want to start by saying what happened here this
morning is totally unacceptable. All of us as Members of
Parliament: The first thing in your orientation or induction,
whatever it is, the first thing you are taught, amongst others
is that this part at the centre where the Mace is kept, is a
sacred part of the Chamber. You may not walk there for as long
as the Mace is there. You may not even cross the floor from
the one side to the other for as long as the Mace is there.
Now, what happened this morning was totally unacceptable. And
I mean unacceptable, hon members.
However, allow me to give each party a minute to speak. The
hon Tafeni, the fact that I am speaking with you present here;
keep it in your mind that I have not forgot that I asked you
to leave this House. So, once the parties have spoken because
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you decided to come back and you are occupying your seat,
remember you will still go out. The hon ANC Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, thank you
very much. Indeed, you have practised what is written in Rule
77 that when there is grave disorder, the House can be
suspended. We fully support your intervention.
As political parties we met. I presided over the meeting as I
usually do when there is a Chief Whips Forum. We have agreed
that on the Order Paper, there is one item. The response by
the President today, here. We are saying he is going to
respond in this Chamber, today, at this hour. Whatever that
has happened in the previous session, before adjournment, must
be investigated and proper steps must be taken.
We cannot be taken for granted here as Members of Parliament,
when we have agreed in the Chief Whips Forum and the National
Assembly’s Programming Committee, NAPC, the procedures that
Parliament is going to undertake. Therefore, as the ANC, we
are saying the President is going to address us here, because
yesterday parties have raised their concerns and have debated.
They expect the President to respond. The South Africans are
expecting the President to respond.
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We cannot come here and talk about the charges that are
nowhere to be found at this moment. When that time for charges
comes, it will be a different ball game all together. We now
want to proceed with the sitting. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker and hon
Members of Parliament, what we have seen in this House today
should never happen again. Not only do we as Parliament
deserve better, but the South African public deserve better.
We are 400 representatives of almost 63 million people. Sixty-
three million people count on us to make their lives better
every day. What we saw today was a show of embarrassment that
will cost the world and we will be laughed at on the world
spectrum. It can never happen again.
To be a Member of Parliament is an honour. We have to take
that honour very seriously. I do not want to talk about what
happened because I think it is disgusting and ...
[Interjections.]
Mr V PAMBO: Speaker!
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... I think it will be dealt
with in an external forum, but what I want to appeal to
everyone is for calm, rationality and focus on our work.
Mr V PAMBO: Speaker, on a point of order.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: So many people ...
The SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon member, if I may
remind you, I did say that if hon members on the virtual
platform raise a point of order, do so by raising your hand,
the table staff will see your hand on the monitor and will
draw my attention to you.
Mr V PAMBO: Hon Speaker, can you please ask the hon Mazzone to
try to speak with a shop steward’s voice or speak closer to
the mic because it looks like she is trying ...
The SPEAKER: Alright. Closer to the mic. Thank you very much.
Thank you, hon Pambo. Sit down, hon Mazzone.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Speaker.
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The SPEAKER: In this instance and then you will be closer to
the mic. Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: To be a Member of Parliament
is a great honour. We all know this. The 400 of us represent
63 million South Africans. We do not have the luxury of
causing chaos, especially at the time where our country finds
itself in a situation that is in.
Section 36 of the Constitution, limits our rights and it says
no one’s rights may outweigh someone else’s rights.
My party and my party leader took part in the debate yesterday
and it is our constitutional right to hear the response of the
President. The President has a constitutional right too, to
respond to what he was asked and messages that we send to him
yesterday.
I ask that we hold the decorum of this House and we start
acting like the 400 representatives that the South Africans
voted into Parliament. I would like to publicly like to thank
the DA caucus for being well behaved. I would like to thank
every other member in Parliament who sat down, did not get
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involve in physical altercations and I would like to say and I
hope going forward we never see this violence again.
We have come from a violent background. Let us teach our
children that violence begets violence and we only need of
good governance and of good behaviour to children who are
watching Parliament. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, I please beg your indulgence so
that we are able to hear each other clearly. Yesterday the
Public Protector of South Africa was suspended by a sitting
President. There is no conviction that has been passed by any
competent ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I do not want us to fight.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am giving context. Please listen to what I
am saying.
The SPEAKER: No, no my brother, no, no! You are completely out
of order!
We are now talking about what happened before I adjourned this
House and how we must move forward.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am giving context. Yes, the way forward
that we are putting as the EFF, the President, yes, he is not
yet being convicted, but there are serious allegations against
him. He must therefore not be permitted to speak here in this
Parliament.
We did the same thing in the previous administration. You know
what have been the benefits of this decisive and necessary
action.
So, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa must not be allowed to speak today
there. In the same way that the Public Protector is suspended
he must step aside as well, so that he can be able to answer
to all these allegations of money laundering and torturing
women. In the same way.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Shivambu. You have made
your point.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You allowed the previous speaker to speak for
two minutes. I was counting.
The SPEAKER: No, it was one minute. You are at minus 23
seconds now.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: In conclusion Speaker, we have open the case
against you as the Speaker and security rascals of Parliament
who have assaulted our members and are currently in hospital.
You are going to be held accountable for calling violence on
Members of Parliament. We are going to take action against you
in the same way we were charged in Parliament for touching a
white person. Now we are acquitted. You are going to be held
accountable for instructing rascals, to assault Members of
Parliament in a way that is unconstitutional. So, that you
must take note off. Cyril Ramaphosa must not speak today.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Shivambu. You have made
your point. I have noted what you have just said today.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: And you are still not going to speak that
Cyril.
The SPEAKER: I now invite the hon member from the IFP.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Speaker and hon
President. I am sorry I am going to sit so that you can all
hear. Firstly, I believe that there are many platforms and
forums where we could address some of the issues that are
being raised here other than this.
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An HON MEMBER: The conformist is speaking.
Mr N SINGH: Whether the hon Malema wants to call me a
conformist or not it is his right. I am allowed to express
myself on behalf of my political party. As far as we are
concerned we have gathered here the last two days to deal with
Budget Vote No 1. We received the remarks by the President.
There were remarks by all political party leaders. We expect
the President to respond to whatever was said yesterday.
However, having said that hon Speaker, I think also at the
Chief Whips Forum agreed that we need to investigate some of
the actions that took place in this House – the injuries that
might have taken place to members of the Protection Services
and to Members of Parliament. This is something we want to
assure this House that will be done. We believe as the IFP
that the President should respond. We want to listen to his
response very, very carefully. Notwithstanding the fact that
other issues will be taken up as we proceed. Thank you.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Speaker, can you please ask the information
and communication technology, ICT, to allow president Julius
Malema to enter the platform. He has been put on hold.
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The SPEAKER: Why is he out of the platform?
Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, no, no, he had network issues. So, he is
trying to log back in, but the ICT is not allowing him in.
Please.
The SPEAKER: Alright. Thank you very much. The hon Malema did
address me earlier on, but ICT, will you please make sure that
he is back, maybe he is cut off. However, I do not think there
is a deliberate decision which was taken for him to be out of
the system. The hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you, hon Speaker. I just want to
correct you. It was not the hon Malema - for Hansard purposes,
it was the hon Vuyani Pambo. Can you just allow the hon Malema
to log on? Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Alright. I am sorry the voices are confusing me.
Will you please allow the hon Malema to come in? The hon
member of the FF Plus.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, hon President and hon colleagues,
this is Parliament. We are the members of the National
Assembly. Four hundred of us and in terms of the Constitution
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we represent the people of South Africa. That is who we are.
Each one of us represent 50 000 people out there, the
electorates and we should behave accordingly. It is a huge
responsibility.
Now we may differ from each other in terms of political
positions and in terms of points of view, but the Constitution
clearly stipulates that the National Assembly is the highest
legal authority on the national level in South Africa. Today
we are busy with oversight giving the President an opportunity
to be responsible for his budget and also to do oversight and
allow the President to reply.
Whether we sit here until nine o’clock tonight, the President
will speak. That is the Constitution and that is what is
expected from all of us. When we became Members of Parliament
we all swore an oath in terms of schedule two of the
Constitution. In which we all undertook to uphold the
Constitution and the law of the Republic and to do our job in
terms of the best of our ability. Some of us should do better.
Thank you, Mam.
Mr S N SWART: Hon Speaker, the ACDP would like to agree with
you that what happened yesterday and today is totally
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unacceptable. While we appreciate that there are a number of
questions that need to be asked and answered by the President,
we should allow him to account to the nation and to respond.
So, we are fully supportive of him responding today.
The nation is looking to us for leadership at this time, given
the large number of challenges facing us when we have COVID-
19, flooding and even when there was Parliament fire. They are
now looking to us and the President for leadership.
Speaker, we need as leaders to apologise to the nation on how
we have conducted ourselves. I also apologise for gestures
from my side that were unbecoming.
Each of us need to maintain the decorum of this House. If we
do not do that then rightfully, the citizens of the country
will start questioning the legitimacy of Parliament and start
referring to us as children or as a circus. That we cannot
allow. We need to be able to exercise our oversight correctly
and each party needs to able to participate in that process in
terms of the Constitution and in terms of the rules. I thank
you, Speaker.
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Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Speaker and hon members, all the Chief
Whips of the political parties met. A decision was taken there
that the President must be allowed to speak, so that he can
respond to problems, questions and everything that was raised
yesterday and the way forward as you proposed. We therefore
agree with that. Thank you.
Mr S M JAFTA: Hon Speaker, the AIC is here. Yesterday, we took
almost eight hours debating the Budget Votes. Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes, we are listening to you. You are audible.
Mr S M JAFTA: Oh yes. I was saying, yesterday, we took almost
eight hours debating the Budget Vote on The Presidency. All
the political parties had a chance or an opportunity to say
whatever they feel about the President. Almost all political
parties demanded answers from the President about the
allegations that have been put against him. We are therefore
expecting the President to respond today and listen what he is
going to say about the allegations. We can therefore not
disallow the President to respond to the questions that we
posed yesterday.
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As the AIC, we feel the President must be given the
opportunity to respond as per the decision taken by the
Whippery. Thanks very much.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Speaker, Speaker what we saw
yesterday and today is deeply disturbing to see the people’s
House degraded in the way we have seen it.
The Rules provide for the removal of the member from this
House is not intended to provide an opportunity to provoke a
forced eviction. The member that’s asked to leave this House
in terms of the Rules, should do so without being forced.
We should not see the disgusting violence that we saw this
morning. I am sorry to hear that there are members that are in
hospital, but from where I was sitting, I saw members of this
House assaulting parliamentary staff, and that’s not
acceptable.
Speaker, we are here to conduct the business of the people of
South Africa ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order.
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Mr B N HERRON: Speaker, we do not represent our personal
grievances ...
The SPEAKER: Order members.
Mr B N HERRON: ... we are here to serve the people of South
Africa ...
Ms Y N YAKO: On a point of order.
The SPEAKER: There is no point of order for now.
Ms Y N YAKO: Speaker, he is lying. There is no such happening.
The SPEAKER: No, withdraw that. You said he is lying.
Ms Y N YAKO: I will not withdraw, he is lying. Why did he say
we assaulted the staff? We didn’t.
The SPEAKER: Hon Yako, will you please withdraw what you have
just said.
Ms Y N YAKO: I will not withdraw, Speaker.
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The SPEAKER: If you are not withdrawing, feel free to walk
out. Please leave the Chamber.
Mr V PAMBO: Speaker, how is it that always, the only option is
to kick people out of the House?
The SPEAKER: Hon Pambo, wait. I am using the Rules of the
House. Hon Yako, please leave the House.
Ms Y N YAKO: Speaker, he is misleading the House. He is lying.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, will you please withdraw.
Ms Y N YAKO: That is not what happened.
The SPEAKER: You are refusing to withdraw?
Ms Y N YAKO: I will not withdraw.
Ms T P MSANE: He is misleading the House.
The SPEAKER: Yako, I am coming back to you. I will allow GOOD
to finish.
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Mr B N HERRON: May I conclude, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Please conclude.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Speaker, we are not here to
represent our personal grievances ... [Interjections.]
Ms N K F HLONYANA: You may be concluding, but you are a liar.
Mr B N HERRON: ... we are here to serve the people of South
Africa ... [Interjections.]
Ms N K F HLONYANA: You are lying.
Mr B N HERRON: ... and the crisis is urgent. The people of
South Africa rely on us to provide leadership and solution,
and not chaos and disrespect. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker, in this House, we
have different processes that we follow. One of the things we
are dealing with now, is the budget process. The purpose of a
budget process is to ensure that we have allocations of
resources so that we can deliver the services to the people on
the ground.
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Now, 63 million people in this country are watching the
decorum and dignity of this House go to an all-time low. They
have entrusted us as the highest decision-making body in this
House, to act in the best interest with respect to the dignity
and the highest morality. What we are doing here is that
everything else, but acting in the interest of the people.
The NFP is very clear about this and that the process must
continue. If we are unhappy about anything, we have other
opportunities and processes that we can follow. This
particular sitting must take place. It must continue.
There are allegations. Allegations will be dealt with. These
allegations ... [Inaudible.] ... that get many people not only
in this House, but all over the world. We just cannot live
only on allegations. Allow the process to continue. Allow the
President to continue so that we can take South Africa
forward. I want to plead with anyone in this House that have
the interest of the people of this country to please allow the
process to continue. [Time expired.]
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you, Speaker, I think I heard hon
Mazzone commending members of her caucus for being well-
behaved. Well, I think I should commend the 50% that ...
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[Inaudible.] ... of the UDM in the House; for those guys for
being well-behaved.
Look Speaker, I think let’s firstly give a bit of context. If
we were to look at it, this is President Ramaphosa’s pay back
the money moment, if we were to look at the political
strategies employed in the House. It is not up to us or up to
the UDM to try to be political analysts and analyse the
position of other political parties whether we agree with them
or not. What is important is that I have been in the media in
the past two days, speaking on behalf of my party, saying that
we expect the President to come here and account. My leader,
did raise a few in his speech that he would like the President
to respond to because this is the opportunity to do so. In
other words, what we expect is that once you have allowed
other parties to ventilate whatever views they want to bring
forward, it is important that this process proceeds so that
the President can respond to the inputs that have been made by
the party leaders.
I also want to say that; I think the use of violence is
regrettable. It is something that as this House, we need to
once more investigate again. Look into it and see how we can
prevent it from happening again in future.
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Speaker, there are a lot of videos circulating around. I was
also sent a video of EFF MPs who were still being manhandled
outside. They were evicted from the House, but outside of the
precinct, they were still being beaten even though they pose
no threat to the security – what do we call them again?
Parliament Protection Service, PPS.
I am trying to say we need to look at people who have evidence
of all the violence that has happened in the House. They need
to be submitted so that we look at this thing properly as we
map the way forward and try to do it properly. I said all
videos that have to do with violence. [Time expired.]
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, hon Speaker, hon
Speaker, we would like to thank you for your leadership, for
your fairness, and for the decorum of this House. However, it
is unacceptable that Parliament should be a precinct for
gender-based violence. I know there were issues about males
touching the private parts of females, but for Al Jama-ah it
is also ... if females touch the private parts of other
females.
We need to revisit the Rules. There should be no sign of any
violence in the parliamentary precinct. The Speaker obviously
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needs to have certain powers to deal with these issues. The
Rules Committee – I am going to instruct Mr Singh who
represents the smaller parties – we need to relook at the
Rules as to give the Speaker other powers other than removing
people from the House, which is an infringement on their
dignity, and to remove them forcefully; it is unacceptable. We
are setting a wrong example to learners in classrooms and to
municipalities all over because Parliament sets the standards.
Al Jama-ah would like to call for a revisit of the powers that
the Speaker has and to give the Speaker even stronger powers.
Definitely we don’t want the nation to see physical violence
and physical removal from the House. Thank you very much, hon
Speaker.
Mr M NYHONTSO: Thank you, Speaker. The last speaker should
have been hon member from Al Jama-ah. This thing of calling Al
Jama-ah before PAC ...
IsiXhosa:
... iza kude iqheleke ...
English:
... Speaker, apologise.
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IsiXhosa:
Kudala ndiyibukele.
English:
The SPEAKER: My apologies, hon Nyhontso.
Mr M NYHONTSO: Be that as it may, Comrade Speaker, we have
raised issues last night with the President, issues that I
believe are relevant for my constituency. I therefore expect
the President to come and respond to those issues, in
particular, the plight of military veterans. The President
must speak and respond to our issues. Thank you, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: I thank you, hon member. Hon members. Order.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, can I correct something here? It’s
hon Malema.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, yes.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Singh said that I said he is a conformist.
I never said that. I was not even on the platform; I was
listening on TV. It is incorrect to just put me into things I
was not in, please.
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The SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you very much, hon Malema for drawing
our attention to that. Hon Singh.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I do apologise to the hon Malema.
There was no name on the screen and it sounded like him, but
thank you very much. I hope he will accept the apology. Thank
you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Singh. Hon members,
order. Hon members, as we proceed, allow me to indicate to you
that we have taken serious consideration into the issue which
was raised here by hon Chirwa. Hon Chirwa was throwing it at
the Speaker, that the speaker is committing gender-based
violence. I would like to say that we were not aware of what
is happening if it did happen. Therefore, what we will do now
is to conduct an investigation post this debate. Fortunately,
there are videos everywhere and there are even cameras outside
so that we are able to get the exact information about what
happened as people were being taken out.
Equally, I want to commend hon Ntlangwini about yesterday,
because when she was asked to leave the House, she understood
exactly and she walked out. As the parliamentary ...
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Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Speaker. No, now you
are patronizing us. What you are doing is wrong.
The SPEAKER: Okay. No need to patronize.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Never divorce me from my caucus. Never do
that. You have been patronizing me the whole morning. Don’t
ever do that.
The SPEAKER: I withdraw.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Don’t do it.
The SPEAKER: I don’t want to patronize the ... [Inaudible.]
... of the EFF. Thank you, hon Ntlangwini. Hon members, on
that note, we will investigate the matter as it happened. Hon
members, we are 400 members here, we are representing 14
political parties, which implies that we are representing
millions of South Africans. As we proceed, I want to start
with you, hon Tafeni. No, wait. I want to start with you, hon
Tafeni and remind you that the members who I had requested to
leave the House, have left the House. You were supposed to
leave the House. For now, you have not done that. I am now
requesting you to leave the House.
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Ms N TAFENI: Thank you, hon Speaker ...
IsiXhosa:
... ndifuna ukuqonda Somlomo ukuba undikhuphela ntoni na ...
English:
... because during the time ...
IsiXhosa:
... ndikhwija umntu ngamanzi ...
English:
... it was a man ...
IsiXhosa:
... endibethe ngengqiniba apha ebeleni. Bekufanele ukuba
ndenze njani mna? Ingaba bekufuneka ukuba nam ndiphindise
ngengqiniba kananjalo? Ndithatha amanzi ndimkhwija ngawo
kungenxa yokuba undinyhukula ngengqiniba kuba efuna ukutsala
uBabalwa. Yeyiphi ke ngoku into ebekufanele ukuba ndiyenzile
Somlomo?
The SPEAKER: All of that will be investigated, hon Tafeni. But
what you did ... [Interjections.]
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IsiXhosa:
Nks N TAFENI: Undikhuphelani kaloku ungekaphandi kuba
liDindala leNdlu oyena mntu ubalulekileyo apha kuwe. Aba bantu
bakho basibetha ngeengqiniba uze uthi wena xa ndizama
ukuzilwela uthi mandiphume phandle. Ngoba kutheni?
English:
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni, I am pleading with you to leave the
House.
IsiXhosa:
Nks N TAFENI: Bendizama ukuziphindezela, Somlomo.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni, I am requesting you to leave the
House.
Ms N TAFENI: For what?
The SPEAKER: For what happened before we left here.
IsiXhosa:
Nks N TAFENI: Ingaba yinto ebisenziwa ndim okanye ngala
maDindala eNdlu akho owabize ngokwakho?
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English:
Mr V PAMBO: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... just allow
me ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, we are asking you to protect
women.
The SPEAKER: Yes.
Mr J S MALEMA: What is this thing that you are doing that you
allow men to touch women’s breasts the way they ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: ... and women are defending themselves. You are
punishing women for defending themselves.
Mr X NQOLA: Hon Speaker, you are going to degenerate this
thing ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, If I may read section 73 of the
Constitution and of the Rules ...[Interjections.]
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Mr X NQOLA: Hon Speaker, we must not allow people to
...[Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: ... and allow me to start with one which says, if
a member refuses to leave the Chamber when ordered to do so by
the presiding officer in terms of Rule 70 or 71, the presiding
officer must instruct the Serjeant-at-arms to remove the
member form the Chamber and the precincts of Parliament.
Ms T P MSANE: But Speaker, she is telling you why she is not
leaving.
The SPEAKER: Secondly, if the Serjeant-at-arms is unable in
person to effect the removal of the member, the presiding
officer may call upon the Parliamentary Protection Services to
assist in removing the member form the Chamber and in the
precincts of Parliament.
Ms T P MSANE: Speaker, you must protect women, protect her.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The Rule says if the hon member is resists
attempts to be removed from the Chamber in terms of Rule 1 or
2, the Serjeant-at-arms and the Parliamentary Protection
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Services may use such force as maybe reasonably necessary to
overcome any resistance. This is no directive in the process
for them to touch your private parts as you have indicated.
Ms T P MSANE: But they did. They touched her private parts
Speaker, they touched her.
The SPEAKER: And the last ... [Inaudible] ...says, no member
may in any manner whatsoever physically intervene in, prevent,
obstruct or hinder the removal of a member from the Chamber in
terms of these Rules. I have read those Rules and I really
want to make a plea to you that, you observe the Rules which
we have adopted in Parliament.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order. Point of order.
[Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have noted the hands of hon
Ntlangwini and hon Dlakude, but before I recognise you, I
still want to plead with you, hon Tafeni and hon Yako to leave
the House.
AN HON MEMBER: Speaker, we are on virtual, can we also be
noted please.
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IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Ndifuna ukwazi eyona nto undikhuphela yona ...
[uwele-wele.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Just leave, them we are going to meet in
court. Leave!
IsiXhosa:
Nksz Y N YAKO: Somlomo uza kusenza abantu abakrwada singekho
krwada. Asikho krwada sime apha nje.
English:
We have a right to speak. Please do not dictate in this House
please ...
IsiXhosa:
... ndiyakucela musa ukuyenza le nto uyenzayo.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni and hon Yako will you please leave the
House.
AN HON MEMBER: For what, Yako was not even in the House at the
time?
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The SPEAKER: Hon member from the virtual system ...I am ...
IsiXhosa:
.. ngubani?
English:
Who is that?
Am HON MEMBER: Mente.
The SPEAKER: No ...
IsiXhosa:
... asinguye uMente.
Ms A M SIWISA: Why must they leave hon Chair? Why must they
leave when they were protecting themselves? Why must they
leave?
Mr A H M PAPO: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... Ok hon Papo you are going to help
me? Please help.
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Mr V PAMBO: No, Speaker ...[Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker.
Ms T P MSANE: ...[Inaudible] ... get out from the floor.
[Interjections.]
Recognise us, we want to speak, we are in the House.
The SPEAKER: Hon ...[Interjections.]
Mr A H M PAPO: Yesterday you made a ruling that
...[Interjections] ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: But, Speaker, my hand was up before Papo,
what is this? [Interjections]
Mr A H M PAPO: I am appealing that, that platform be muted.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: What is this?
Ms N V MENTE: You are not voted by ...[Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon members, the platform yesterday had to be
shut down because there was disorder and people were causing
disorder from the platform.
Ms M R MOHLALA: But, it was you who was causing all that.
The SPEAKER: I thought that today we would allow you hon
members ... [Interjections]
AN HON MEMBER: On a point of order.
The SPEAKER: ... to not only listen but also participate, but
if you are being disruptive, I will have no choice but to
close the platform.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order Speaker.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member! Yes, hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Speaker, I don’t know why
...[Interjections] you are treating our members like this on
the virtual platform. They are part of the House. They can
raise points of orders anytime they see fit to raise points of
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orders. All the members that are interjecting at times, you
don’t look at the ANC members that are interjecting. You are
quick to see EFF members and you want to kick us out of the
House. You have not even given hon Yako, we are still going to
talk to you. You said to her, “I have noted down your hand, I
am going to attend to you” Why are you not allowing her to
speak? Now, you also want to chase her out. Don’t handle us
like that. don’t ...[Interjections] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini ...[Interjections]
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker! [Interjections]
The SPEAKER: Table staff, switch off the platform. Table
staff, I direct you to switch off the virtual platform.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: I direct you to switch off ...[Interjections.]
Ms N V MENTE: No!
Mr K CEZA: That is not democratic Speaker.
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An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon clerks of the ... you have not switched off
the virtual platform. You have not. Mute everybody. Thank you
very much.
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, hon Tafeni starting with you I
requested you to leave the House.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Ndiphuma kuba kutheni Somlomo?
The SPEAKER: You know why. I don’t want to get into that
debate right now.
Ms N TAFENI: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.
The SPEAKER: The same ...[Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Nksz TAFENI: Bendizikhusela ekubeni simele ukukhuselwa nguwe
kula madoda asinyhukutyhayo. Bendizikhusela kula madoda
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andinyhukutyha ibele. Ngendenze njani mna? Ndenze into
engalunganga ngokuzikhusela?
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni, you are ...[Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Unokuwabiza eze kundifunqula.
The SPEAKER: Hon ... I am not going to do that.
Ms N TAFENI: Oh!
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni! Hon Tafeni! Hon Tafeni! Even
yesterday you did this, and today the reason we had to adjourn
the House was because of what you did. In fact, we adjourned
the House and had to go and discuss because you decided to
cross the floor and stand there, and actually fought.
Ms N TAFENI: Not me. Not me.
The SPEAKER: [Inaudible] ... Apologies, apologies, I have
mixed you names, what you did was throwing water. You
interfered as we were ...[Interjections.]
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IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: [Ngokungavakaliyo] ... ndayichithela ngamanzi
kuphela. Ndiphumela ukuchithela indoda endibethe ngengqiniba
ngamanzi?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I am not going to exchange with you.
Serjeant-at-arms will you please assist the member to leave
the House.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Ngoba? Yeyiphi le nto ingalunganga mna
ndiyenzileyo?
The SPEAKER: Because you interfered with the process when
someone was being removed from the House.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Ingaba oyena mntu wenze okulungileyo ngulo
undibethe ngengqiniba Somlomo?
The SPEAKER: When we have investigated that, we can talk about
it.
IsiXhosa:
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Nksz N TAFENI: Ndicela ukuhlala ke ude uphande kuba apha
uMongameli uyaphandwa kodwa uthi makahlale athethe. Kutheni
ungenakho ukundiyeka mna ndihlale. Kutheni ungenakho
ukundiyeka mna ndihlale?
The SPEAKER: No, you leave the House hon member. Leave the
House.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Andifuni nokuva indoda ecaleni kwam, ndicela
uhambe tata.
The SPEAKER: Okay!
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: [Ngokungavakaliyo] ... wonke umntu ophandwayo
makaphume kule Ndlu.
The SPEAKER: Hon ... how do you allow it?
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker. I have for the
past two if not three hours respectfully been raising points
of orders, and you ... [Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: I am waiting for the ...[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker.
The SPEAKER: ...the Parliamentary Protection Services must
assist and remove ...[Inaudible] ... please.
Ms Y N YAKO: Speaker, they have a member of your Parliamentary
Protection Services who is abusing us. Her name is Beauty and
...
IsiXhosa:
... uyasikriwitsha [Uwele-wele.]
An HON MEMBER: Speaker, are you going to recognise me or you
want me to just go on and speak? Speaker!
Ms Y N YAKO: You have a member of your security, her name is
Beauty and ...
IsiXhosa:
... uyasibetha ...
English:
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... because she is doing it deliberately, she is not doing her
job anymore; she is being personal, so she cannot come in here
...
IsiXhosa:
... yena.
The SPEAKER: Who is that?
Ms Y N YAKO: Beauty, here name is Beauty. She is the security
person is ...[Inaudible]
... because uyasibetha.
An HON MEMBER: Speaker, you can’t dictate as to who must
arrest you.
Mr J S MALEMA: Madam Speaker, I think you have just
acknowledged that you chose the wrong person.
The SPEAKER: If I could say something to you, hon members.
Please, please, and you all know this. The fact that I ignore
your hands, is not that you are being ignored. We have to
finish with one person. [Interjections] Hon members!
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IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: [Ngokungavakaliyo] ... la madoda mawasuke.
Mawasuke la madoda, mawasuke. Mawahambe la madoda. [Uwele-
wele] Andizi kufunqulwa ngamadoda mna.
The SPEAKER: Hon members.
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Kutheni kusiza amadoda Somlomo?
The SPEAKER: Hon Tafeni ...
IsiXhosa:
Nksz N TAFENI: Ndicela la madoda asuke apha
The SPEAKER: Will you please step out hon Tafeni. Hon Tafeni,
step out! [Interjections.] Which one? Hon members, hon
members, I have requested you, hon member... Hon member
Tafeni, please leave and Parliamentary Protection Services, my
instruction to you is that, no male member should move the
parliamentary ... [Interjections]
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Kwa uBeauty ... [Uwele-wele.]
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An HON MEMBER: You can’t tell us who must remove who.
The SPEAKER: No member must interfere ... [Interjections]
An HON MEMBER: You can’t tell us who must remove who.
Ms P MADOKWE: [Inaudible] ... because of this woman. This
woman has been strangling us ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Okay! I am waiting ... [Interjections. I am
waiting for hon member Tafeni to leave the House. Actually
...[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: You can’t prescribe.
The SPEAKER: All you need hon members is to escort, that is
what we have been requesting. That you just go ...
[Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: They are beating and strangling us Speaker.
An HON MEMBER: Speaker!
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The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Thank you, hon Tafeni is
gone. I am coming back to you, hon Yako, will you please rise
and please leave the House. Hon Yako, you asked why? It is
because you said ...[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker.
The SPEAKER: ... somebody is lying and I said please withdraw
and you refused.
An HON MEMBER: No, on a point of order Speaker.
Ms Y N YAKO: I said he misled the House. I said he misled the
House ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member Yako, you said the person is lying.
You said it twice.
Ms Y N YAKO: You did not give me the chance. You did not give
me the chance. I just said, he has misled the House.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I said withdraw lying. Up until now,
you have not withdrawn. No she was given time hon ... Hon Yako
will you please take the floor and withdraw now.
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Ms Y N YAKO: Hon Chair, I withdraw the word lying, ...
[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order Speaker.
Ms Y N YAKO: ... he misled the House.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much hon Skwatsha. I understand
how you must be feeling that the Speaker has ruled. But one
thing I am not going to have, is this House collapsing on my
hands before the President has finished his speech.
Mr M K MONWEDI: On a point of order Speaker!
The SPEAKER: We can maybe after this hon members, hon Papo we
can discuss this matter. Thank you very much.
Mr M K MONWEDI: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon ... but I have not given you the floor.
Mr M K MONWEDI: Ja, but I have raised a hand for the past two
hours.
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The SPEAKER: I have not given you the floor.
Mr M K MONWEDI: So, when are you going to give the
opportunity?
The SPEAKER: Switch off your microphone and raise your hand.
Mr M K MONWEDI: When are you going to give an opportunity?
The SPEAKER: Switch off that microphone. Thank you, thank you.
Hon members, we are now continuing with the debate.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order Speaker.
Ms Y N YAKO: Chair, you said you were going to recognise me a
long time ago.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Thank you very much Speaker. Speaker, you are
not going to treat me in this House the same way you are
treating members that are on the virtual platform, by
illegally closing them out of these proceedings. You are not
going to do that. What happens on virtual platform, must also
happen here.
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Now I want to rise Speaker to say to you, why are you so
inconsistent in terms of how you apply the Rules? Why are you
not identifying those that are disruptive? If people are
disruptive in the virtual platform and tell information
technology, IT to remove them as you identify those that are
disruptive in the House. It is not consistent Speaker and what
you are doing is unconstitutional. We are members of
Parliament; we must come here.
It is not only some of these people that are representing
their constituencies. We also come from constituencies that we
happen to represent. I want to Speaker to open the virtual
platform to allow all members of Parliament to raise any issue
that they would want to raise and identify, identify such
elements and tell IT to mute them or remove them from the
platform. I have got a few points that I want to raise, but I
am raising this now.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much hon Montwedi, you have made
your point and I am taking it into consideration. Hon members!
Yes, hon Mandela.
Inkosi Z M D MANDELA: Thank you, hon Speaker. I just wanted to
point out and draw your attention that you should study
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Hansard, as to what hon Ntlangwini was saying to the security
personnel. You would find that it was a really gross violation
of the Rules of the House. She actually used a language that
is unbecoming. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Okay, thank you very much hon member. Hon members
on the virtual platform, this ... [Interjections] ... hon
members, hon Ntlangwini please. Hon members, the following
members are the members ... you are right hon Montwedi. These
were the members who were disruptive on the virtual platform,
hon Maotwe, hon Mente. They are raising points of orders and I
will allow them to do so. What I will not allow is for people
to scream from the virtual platform, because they are then
causing disorder in the House. That is what I will not allow,
hence we have closed everybody from the virtual platform.
Now. I am going to allow these members to raise the issues
they want to raise. However, if what happened yesterday
continues, I will switch off the virtual platform. Hon Maotwe!
Hon Maotwe, you don’t want to speak anymore?
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Hon Speaker, I’ve been wanting to assist you
for a very long time and you have not been recognizing us.
Firstly, let me deal with the issue of hon Mandela, who stood
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up there. He said we ... and you must investigate this,
Speaker, and throw him out of the House himself, he said that
people must be moered [beat up] in the House. So, he’s
actually saying that in that same House of yours, that you
call hon House, we must fight each other. Can you please
investigate that, Speaker, and help us and remove hon Mandela
because that is very unparliamentary and it can’t be allowed.
Now, the second ...
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Maotwe ...
Ms O M C MAOTWE: ... that was one ... Speaker, allow me to
finish. Now, Speaker, we are saying to you, the President of
the Republic, there are serious allegations against him ...
The SPEAKER: That’s not a point of order, hon member.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: ... he can’t come to the hon House to address
us as hon members because he’s not honourable. He must step
aside and allow the law to take its cause ... [Inaudible.]
over the state and therefore ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe!
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Ms O M C MAOTWE: Yes, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe, thank you for listening. Hon Maotwe,
that is not a point of order. It is not a point of order.
Please take your seat, now, and allow me to recognize the next
...
Ms P MADOKWE: Speaker, am I ever going to be recognized,
myself, here in this House? my hand has been up, I don’t know
how many times you said you are going to recognize me ...
The SPEAKER: I will recognize you later.
Hon Mente!
Ms N V MENTE: Speaker, number one, you call bouncers on
members of the EFF and you don’t pay attention to what those
bouncers are doing, right under your nose, in front of your
eyes, in a full view of all members of the House, who come
here to mislead the House to say we are unruly. Those bouncers
came in, dragged commissar Phiwaba. Commissar Phiwaba was
never asked to leave the House, they came in, they ...
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The SPEAKER: Hon Mente, the issue about the bouncers has been
raised and I’ve taken that into consideration and there will
be an investigation of this matter. I did say that, hon Mente.
[Interjections.] I wasn’t aware that this is what people are
subjected to, we’ve agreed, we are investigating it, hon
Mente. And therefore, please, the issue of the bouncers, for
now, let’s park it until that investigation is conducted.
Ms N V MENTE: Can I finish my point of order, please?
The SPEAKER: Yes!
Ms N V MENTE: Can I finish now, please?
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Mente!
Ms N V MENTE: Bouncers that you are saying is going to be
investigated. We agree with you. and we have already laid
charges against you and those bouncers that have been
manhandling women and even sexually harassing them. One of
them was even kicking a woman right in front of your eyes; you
didn’t call them out. You did not do anything. Simply because
... [Inaudible.] ... protecting ... [Inaudible.] ... a person
who’s got the money ...
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The SPEAKER: Hon Mente, you have raised the matter and we’ve
taken that into consideration.
Hon Msane!
AN HON MEMBER (Male): Speaker, one of your problem is that you
are impatient. You don’t want to listen ...
Ms T P MSANE: Speaker, you need to allow us to finish, right?
First of all, you are pre-empting what we want to say. The hon
Mente is giving you what happened, currently, in your House,
and you are refusing to listen to her.
Secondly, you want to kick out hon Yako. You want to kick hon
Yako because she is giving you a scenario of what happened in
the House. You cannot pre-empt what the EFF members want to
say to you. You can’t. It’s incorrect. I ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Msane, don’t belabour the point. The point
has been raised and we’ve agreed that this matter will be
investigated. Don’t belabour the point ...
Ms T P MSANE: ... no, but allow us to speak, hon Speaker ...
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The SPEAKER: ... we are wasting time, hon members. we are
wasting time ...
Ms T P MSANE: ... allow us to speak, hon Speaker. You are
treating us like your stepchild and us on the virtual platform
must be given a voice. You are not giving us a voice. You want
to mute all of us mutually. It can never be ...
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Msane.
Hon Tshabalala!
Ms J TSHABALALA: Hon Speaker, I greet the hon President. One
thing, seated here as a Member of Parliament we want to say to
yourself that we bow to your order, this is your House. All of
us were bound by the rules. We’ve been observing some rules
transgressions. In so far as applying the rules to the latter,
we want to implore you, Speaker, to be consistent. We want to
implore you, Speaker, to apply the rules to the latter. You’ve
made a ruling around this matter. Speaker, you’ve also, as the
Presiding Officer, and the rules allow and give you the right
as the Speaker of Parliament, on the matters in so far as
frivolous points of order, on a matter that you would have
ruled. You have ruled on that issue, investigation would be
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happening, I don’t think the Speaker should allow any other
point of order in so far as that matter.
Secondly, Speaker, the control of the microphones, Rule 80,
it’s quite evident and it’s quite important that it saves and
I’m going to read: In the event of a member not showing due
respect to the authority or not obeying an order to ruling or
direction of the Presiding Officer, Presiding Officer may
disable or switch off the microphone being used by such member
and order that, that be done. So, Speaker, I also draw your
attention to that and be consistent around it because you
can’t take points of order on the same matter that you’ve
already ruled.
Lastly, Speaker, on the Rule 79: Recognition of members to
speak. You need to be consistent around it because the rules
empower you not to allow persistently the same members who’s
going to speak on a matter.
And the last point, the last ruling that you made, as we
respect it, Speaker, when you ask a Member of Parliament to
say ‘Can you withdraw?’ and they didn’t withdraw, you still
give them indulgence and give them ... after you’ve ruled
yourself. So, I want to draw to your attention that let’s not
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contradict this House. You are correct, this House cannot
collapse on your hands but it’s very clear where we are seated
the members who are causing and are distracting the House, you
need to take your powers and do what is due to them. Because
all of us as members and leaders of political parties have
said the President must proceed and the President must
respond. No member should not be able that, hon Speaker.
But in the way that we are going, I’m really getting worried
that we fall in the hands and the trap of these plans that we
are seeing here. Please take order in your House. Thanks.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member. You’ve said it
all.
Hon members, all ... [Interjections.] ... what did she say?
Didn’t you listen? ... [Interjections.] ... Didn’t you listen?
Montwedi! Montwedi! Can you just ... for few minutes, just
give us the respect we deserve because I’m giving you the
respect you deserve, please. Just for once.
Hon members, I think we’ve reached that point where points of
order which are related to issues which I’ve already ruled on,
I will not accept. And no one can accuse me of being unfair or
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being this, of being biased. I’ve actually noted points of
order on all sides, in fact I think some of the people are
very impatient with me right now. But I wanted to give
opportunity to everybody to express themselves so that
tomorrow as you go to court, because you are very much
preparing to go to court, from what I have been told from the
virtual platform here, at least you must have facts and not
fiction about what happened here today.
I’m no more allowing for points of order from both ... all
sides, from all political parties ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): When are you going to recognize me,
Speaker? ...
The SPEAKER: We are now continuing with the response of the
President ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): ... or in the EFF you only see
Montwedi? My hand has been up, Speaker.
Speaker, can you please not silence the voice of women in this
parliament! My hand has been up; can you please recognize me?
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The SPEAKER: Mr President. The hon the President ...
Ms E N TLANGWINI: On a point of order, Speaker. The hon ...
[Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... her hand was up ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): ... the same thing that we’ve been
telling you about, Speaker, you are doing it again.
Perpetuating gender-based violence and you are silencing women
in this Parliament.
Ms E N TLANGWINI: Point of order, Speaker. The hon Phiwaba’s
hand was up ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): ... after the longest time ...
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Point of order, Speaker. Point of order
happens to be Rule 92 of the rules of this House. I want to
know if ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi!
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Yes, Speaker.
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The SPEAKER: Will you please switch off your mic? Hon
Montwedi, I have now ruled on this matter that I will not take
any more points of order. And that if a person has a
challenge, a problem, with my ruling, you may want to
challenge it later. For now ...
Ms E N TLANGWINI: No, no. Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi, please switch off your mic!
Mr M K MONTWEDI: But you must recognise me, I want to raise a
point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Montwedi. Hon member, switch off your mic!
Hon members, I have now ruled. After three hours, that I am
not taking any more points of order and I hate to say this,
the points of order which are being raised are similar points
of order and clearly there are points which are meant to
collapse the business of the day. And I am saying, hon
members, I am not going to allow thus.
I am not allowing it, hon Montwedi. I am not allowing you,
bhuti [brother].
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AN HON MEMBER (Female): Speaker, you cannot pre-empt what we
want to say in this House ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi, I am not allowing you ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): ... my hand has been up for the
longest time, you recognizing ...
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I want to know if you are running this House
in terms of the rules of order or you are running this House
in terms of what you think must happen? Points of order is
Rule 92 in terms of the rules of this House. And are you
saying you are disregarding a rule of the House? Is that what
you are saying? Is that what you are saying? I just want
clarity from you on that one issue, Speaker, to say, are you
saying you are suspending Rule 92? Is the Speaker saying ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, what you are leaving on Rule 92 is
your sub-rule, 7, 8 & 9. Which is what I read here when we
started. That no other member may raise another point of order
before the Presiding Officer has ruled on the first point of
the order, that was number 1, sub-rule 7. No member may raise
a point of order again or a similar point of order if the
Presiding Officer has ruled on the matter. Number 8, members
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may not disrupt proceedings by pointing points of order that
do not comply with sub-rule number 9.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I hear you loud and clear. I want to engage
you on that one, Speaker [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You not going to engage me ... [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I want to engage you ... [Interjections.]
[Inaudible.] ... you are misleading yourself or this House,
Speaker? [Interjections.] It’s not what it says. What you have
read has not said point of order must be disregarded ...
[Interjections.]
Ms E N TLANGWINI: On a point of order, Speaker. Why are all
members muted on the virtual platform? Please unmute our
members on the virtual platform.
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi ...
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Speaker, can you please stop this guy to stop
these gestures. Can you please ask him to stop with this
intimidating gestures of his, please ... [Interjections.] he’s
been doing it since this morning.
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The SPEAKER: Hon Cachalia, please. Hon Montwedi ...
Ms E N TLANGWINI: Speaker, can you unmute our members on the
virtual platform?
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi, would you please leave the room!
Ms E N TLANGWINI: Hon Speaker, can you unmute our members on
the virtual platform?
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi, would you please leave the chamber!
AN HON MEMBER (Female): On what grounds is he leaving?
Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Montwedi, would you please leave the House!
Mr M K MONTWEDI: For what? What have I done? For what, for
speaking? For speaking?
Ms E N TLANGWINI: Speaker, President wants to speak on the
virtual platform.
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Mr M K MONTWEDI: ... no, you are not going to do that. you are
not going to create a comfort for the President because I
raise issues here ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): Speaker, you cannot just kick us out
like that. You don’t want us to speak, you don’t want us to do
anything ...
Mr M K MONTWEDI: ... there are rules that have to be respected
...
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, I’m rising on a different because
you keep on muting us here on the virtual platform and I,
personally, as a member of this Parliament, who enjoys the
privileges of being a member of this Parliament, I’ve not done
anything to be muted ... to deserve to be muted on this
platform. I think this approach is wrong. And for Members of
Parliament who are sitting there to allow this, is actually
undemocratic. You’ve got 291 members of Parliament on virtual
platform who just get muted for no apparent reason and the
leadership in that Parliament doesn’t rise to say, not
everybody should be treated the same. It doesn’t matter how
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impatient you want to become; each member will have to be
treated as an individual. And if there is a transgression, let
that transgression be communicated to that individual member
before they are booted out or muted, Speaker. I’m pleading,
please. We should not be muted for doing nothing. We have not
done anything.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Malema. The reason why I muted
everybody, it’s not just your members who have been muted, I
muted all the members on the virtual platform because it had
become difficult for me to control the virtual platform,
people were barging in, people were heckling from the virtual
platform and it became difficult to exercise control or even
my authority on the virtual platform. And therefore ... and
unfortunately, when people talk simultaneously, when they
address us at the same time and screaming and heckling, it
makes it difficult to identify who, from the virtual platform,
is doing that; and I think this is what happened. You are
correct, it is not everybody who’s on the virtual platform who
has conducted themselves in a manner which is unbecoming. But
the situation is such that, here inside the chamber, here, it
has become difficult from where we are to deal with people who
are on the virtual platform, hence the people on the virtual
platform were muted. Unfortunately, hon members have not been
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raising their hands, the clerks of the National Assembly have
not been indicating that there are people who are raising
hands from the virtual platform. All I hear are people
screaming at me, saying we hear ... and responding to speakers
who are here on the floor, who are talking to the issue we are
trying to deal with. So, hon Malema, I ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): On a point of order, Speaker. I don’t
think it’s correct for you to say we just screaming, we’ve
been raising our hands for a very long time ...
The SPEAKER: You see, hon member? ...
AN HON MEMBER: ... my hand has been up for more than an hour
and ...
The SPEAKER: ... this is exactly what I am referring to, this
is exactly ...
AN HON MEMBER (Female): ... yes, because you don’t allow us to
speak, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Dlakude!
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I
rise on Rule 69 again, which reads as follows–
Members may not engage in grossly disorderly conduct in
the House and its forums, including deliberately creating
serious disorder or disruption, repeatedly undermining
the authority of the presiding officer or repeatedly
refusing to obey rulings of presiding officers or
disrespecting and interrupting the presiding officer
while the latter is addressing the House, and persisting
in making serious allegations against a member without
adequate substantiation or following the correct
procedure.
Hon Speaker, you adjourned the House and we met as the Chief
Whips Forum with yourself and we agreed that the House will
proceed, even if it calls for the virtual platform to be
muted. So, those who do not want to listen to the President,
hon Speaker, may peacefully leave the House. Those who do not
want to be addressed by the President, the nation out there is
waiting to listen to what the President has to say, we are
waiting to listen to what the President has to say. So, any
other thing may be put aside, then we proceed with the
business of the House. The Constitution of the Republic of
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South Africa protects all of us; we cannot be held at ransom
by one party that caucused their position to disrupt this
House. We cannot. Hon Speaker, thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Dlakude. I will take the last two
points of order. The first one is ... I am sorry that I
haven’t heard your surname, you have been trying to get my
attention and you are sitting next to hon Ntlangwini.
Ms P MADOKWE: Thank you, Speaker. Can you please give it to
the Deputy President; I don’t want to speak anymore.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You see; this is my problem. I am giving you an
opportunity ... [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: But Speaker, the Deputy President’s hand
was up the whole time. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon Ntlangwini ... [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... no, but their hand has been up and this
is what I have been telling you the whole morning. That is
what I have been telling you the whole morning ...
[Inaudible.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini? Hon Ntlangwini, you are honestly
disrespecting me now. [Interjections.] Hon Ntlangwini, you are
really out of order. You are really out of order. Okay ...
[Interjections.] Hon Ntlangwini, I have ruled. You are not
chairing. This is what causes confusion and you are adding to
the confusion. [Interjections.] Hon Ntlangwini, I am saying to
you I have now ruled. I have ruled.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No guys, I have ruled; I am not taking any more
points of order. [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order, Speaker.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the whole morning we have been
dealing with points of order, and I allowed it because I don’t
want people to accuse us of being impartial. [Interjections.]
... No, no! I have now ruled. No more points of order. Will
you please mute the virtual platform and we proceed? There is
no debate ... [Interjections.]
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Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order, Speaker.
[Interjections.]
Ms Y N YAKO: No, Speaker, there is no law like that.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I will now allow the President to
proceed. [Applause.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Speaker. You can’t be
doing that. The Deputy President’s hand has been up the whole
time. You said you are taking two hands, and you have noted a
hand from the EFF and we are rightfully giving it to our
senior the Deputy President whose hand has been up the whole
morning ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, will you please leave the House.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... why are you not recognising him to
speak? They are hon members of the House; they must speak.
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The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, please leave the House.
[Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No, they must speak; they are members of
the House.
The SPEAKER: Please leave the House.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: It’s not going to happen.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, please leave the House.
[Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Montwedi, I had said leave the House. Hon
members, please leave the House.
Ms Y N YAKO: On a point of order, Speaker? [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Sorry Speaker, you were saying what?
[Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon members, what you are doing ...
[Interjections.]
Ms Y N YAKO: ... you are being very inconsistent right now ...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I don’t ... [Inaudible.] ... be a presiding
officer here. I want to be a presiding officer; I don’t want
to be political. [Interjections.] I have done that.
[Interjections.] Hon Ntlangwini, leave the House. Serjeant-at-
arms, will you please escort hon Ntlangwini and hon Madokwe
... Montwedi, to leave the House. [Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: Now, why am I being escorted out?
[Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Point of order, Speaker? I am going to leave
as ... Can I raise a point of order quickly, Speaker? Leave
the House for what, Speaker? For asking you if you have
suspended the Rules? [Interjections.] Is that why you are
saying I must leave the House? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have asked you to leave the House.
[Interjections.]
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Mr M K MONTWEDI: For asking you if you have suspended the
Rules, and I must leave the House? [Interjections.]
Ms Y N YAKO: On what grounds are the members being kicked out,
Speaker? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I am following every step to the latter before
people are thrown out, right? I am the one who signs, every
day, litigation papers when we have to go to court, right?
Allow me to do things procedurally, okay? By the time I take a
decision that a person must go I must have followed every step
given to me by the clerks of the National Assembly, okay?
[Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
... musani ukundenza igeza apha ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Unmute the hon members on the virtual
platform; they are Members of Parliament ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I am not unmuting them ... [Interjections.] Will
you please go! Please go!
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Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Unmute them! Unmute them, they are Members
of Parliament! What you are doing is illegal.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I want to rise on a different Rule, Speaker
... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Call the parliamentary protection services ...
[Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: ... I am rising in terms of Rule 77 ...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: ... to get the people out.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I’m rising in terms of Rule 77, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: As of the hon Ntlangwini, only women should
approach hon Ntlangwini, and I want to emphasise that people
must just be escorted out. If there is interference again, hon
members, you all leave. Those who are involved in the
interference and try to prevent us from getting the two people
out they will leave the House.
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Mr M K MONTWEDI: I am rising in terms of Rule 77, Speaker.
[Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: On what grounds are the two members being kicked
out, Speaker? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: [Inaudible.] ... did you speak because you
shouldn’t be here ... [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I shouldn’t be here? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, exactly. [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: I am elected to be here. Are you saying I
shouldn’t be here? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I said you should go out! Leave. [Interjections.]
Mr M K MONTWEDI: You never said I must go out.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Leave! [Interjections.]
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Ms P MADOKWE: He deserves to know why he is being kicked out.
Why is hon Ntlangwini being kicked out? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Deliberately, deliberately ...
IsiXhosa:
... phuma, phuma, phuma. Montwedi ohloniphekileyo, nceda
phuma phandle. Phakama, phakama ...
English:
... stand up so that they don’t touch you, and walk out.
[Interjections.] Wait. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.
Hon Ntlangwini, you may as well follow here. Remember you
shouldn’t be here, please. Please, I said leave the House.
Leave the House, hon member. Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon members. Hon Mandela, I said I am not
taking points of order, remember?
Inkosi Z M D MANDELA: Yes, respectfully, Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Mandela, I am reminding you that I said I am
not taking any more hands. [Interjections.]
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Inkosi Z M D MANDELA: Yes.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mandela, I am not taking hands anymore.
[Interjections.] Okay ...
IsiXhosa:
... noko uyamazi negama uza kumxelela.
English:
Thank you very much. Hon members, we now proceed with the
President.
Ms Y N YAKO: On a point of order, Speaker. On a point of
order, Speaker! [Interjections.] I cannot. I cannot. We
cannot. No.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Phuma, phuma ...
English:
... hon, come and escort the member out. I mean I have been
talking to you the whole morning and now you are saying “this
man”. How can you say to an hon member “this man”? Out! Out,
hon Yako! [Interjections.] You are deliberately disregarding
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the authority of the Chair. Hon Yako, I repeat, you leave ...
[Interjections.] You are not going to leave? I am now calling
the parliamentary protection services to usher you out.
[Inaudible] ... services, will you please usher hon Yako out?
IsiXhosa:
Phuma sisi.
English:
Out, sisi. Walk out, the two will escort you. They will escort
you. [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Phuma mntwana wam, phuma.
English:
I thank you, hon members. Thank you, shut the doors and we
proceed. The hon the President. [Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: Speaker, can the people on the virtual platform
please be unmuted?
The SPEAKER: I have ruled. I have ruled on the matter, sisi.
[Interjections.]
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Ms P MADOKWE: All of the are Members of Parliament and they
deserve to be given the opportunity like all of us.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, they can hear. From where they are they can
hear. All they cannot do is to speak back. [Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: They want to points of order and they want to
participate in the House. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I won’t allow them to heckle now anymore.
[Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: Allow them to participate like all of us are
allowed to participate ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have ruled. I have ruled, sisi. Will you please
the Chamber? I have ruled. Please leave the Chamber.
[Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: Are you then saying ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madokwe, will you please leave the Chamber?
[Interjections.]
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Ms P MADOKWE: Are you saying ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madokwe, will you please leave the Chamber?
Serjeant-at-arms, will you please assist her to leave the
Chamber. [Interjections.] Hon members, the opportunities I
have given to all those who were raising points of order have
been abused. In the course of that people have not just abused
the opportunity but they also abused us who are sitting here.
I just think that, hon members, it is enough.
IsiXhosa:
Phuma sisi. Uthini?
English:
You are not going to leave? I now ask the parliamentary
protection services to usher you out. [Interjections.]
Ms P MADOKWE: But can you please unmute the members on the ...
[Inaudible.]
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Phakama sisi, phakama. Ngubani igama lakhe?
IsiXhosa:
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Ms P MADOKWE: Bendicela angandiphahli ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madokwe, you are delaying us, please leave.
Please leave the room. Okay, please leave the room.
[Interjections.] No, no hon member. Hon member, you are not
going to choose who takes you out. [Interjections.] Out, sisi.
Thank you.
Now hon members, may I just address those of you who are still
here ... right? [Interjections.]
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Point of order ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Exactly that! There is no point of order, I have
closed all points of order. [Interjections.]
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: On a point of order, Speaker.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have ruled. I have ruled. [Interjections.]
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon Ringo Madlingozi, I have ruled, and if you
want to overrule my ruling, you are also following.
[Interjections.]
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madlingozi, I have ruled! Are you overruling
me? Are you challenging my ruling?
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: It’s is very much not ... [Inaudible.] ...
that you kick people out. You can’t do that. You have to open
up for them. They are ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madlingozi ... [Interjections.]
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: They are supposed to be listening and
participating also in Parliament. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Madlingozi, please, please, please leave the
room. Please leave the room. Please leave the Chamber. We want
to make progress, please leave the Chamber. Serjeant-at-arms,
will you please take hon Madlingozi and usher him out, please?
[Interjections.] Hon Madlingozi, thank you very much.
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[Interjections.] No, no you are not speaking; you are not
addressing us. Leave the House.
Thank you very much. Hon members, if there are those of you
who are not prepared to listen to what the President has to
say you may as well leave now. You may as well leave now. If
you are not ready and you are going to interrupt and destruct
us from what we have come here to do, you are not ready to
listen, you may as well leave now. Those who have sympathy for
those who have been asked to leave the Chamber, you better
leave now because there will not be another point of order; I
will not listen to you. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
This procedure of points of orders has been abused, hon
members. You have abused it for three hours, and in the course
of that you are abusing us, you are abusing people who are
watching the parliamentary session, you are abusing South
Africans. We cannot continue ...
IsiXhosa:
... nditsho kuwe ...
English:
... and you are not going to switch that on because I have not
allowed you to speak. I have not allowed you to speak.
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[Interjections.] It is not a hand; it is a point of order. I
have ruled, there is no point of order. [Interjections.] There
is no point of order. [Interjections.]
Mr A MATUMBA: It is before the ruling that you have made that
there is no point of order, it is before that ...
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Sendigqibile ukuwisa isigwebo ngoku.
English:
Hon Matumba, will you please leave the room? [Interjections.]
Hon Matumba, will you please leave the room? Please, leave the
Chamber, tata.
Mr A MATUMBA: Chair, we have people who are muted on the
virtual platform ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Serjeant-at-arms, please usher him out.
Mr A MATUMBA: Chair, it ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The parliamentary protection services ... hon
Matumba, I have noted that you pushed the Serjeant-at-arms. I
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have noted that. [Interjections.] I don’t know and I don’t
want to know, but I am saying what I have seen. You have
pushed the Serjeant ... [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
... balungile, balungile ...
English:
... take him out. Out, hon Matumba. [Interjections.] Hon
members, I want to repeat this. The opportunity I have given
to hon members to make their points of order has been
seriously abused. I want to say this to all of you because I
realise that some of you are very impatient and do not
understand why I am doing all this. It is important for me to
follow every step so that people who want to take this session
to court do not succeed for the sake of the people of South
Africa ... [Interjections.]
Ms C N MKHONTO: Speaker? [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: ...isiphakamoso sonqwanqwado sivaliwe ...
English:
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... I have ruled. [Interjections.]
Ms C N MKHONTO: Can you please recognise me, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: I have ruled.
Ms C N MKHONTO: Can you please recognise me, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Sympathy. You want to leave with the rest ...
IsiXhosa:
... hamba sisi.
Ms C N MKHONTO: I am not sympathising with anyone. Can you
please unmute all those Members of Parliament who are on the
virtual platform, Speaker? Unmute them, Speaker, they have a
right to talk in Parliament. They have constituencies which
they are representing here ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhonto, please ... [Interjections.]
Ms C N MKHONTO: On a point of order, Speaker. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhonto, please, may we usher you out please?
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Ms C N MKHONTO: I am not leaving, Speaker. You are infringing
on our right, Speaker. We have a right to talk; we are
representing constituencies here. You have muted Members of
Parliament who are supposed to be ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, in terms of the Rules, the
parliamentary protection services will now usher the colleague
out. Hon Mkhonto, out. [Interjections.]
Ms C N MKHONTO: Point of Order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you. Hon members, thank you
very much and thank you for your patience. Our patience has
been stretched to the limit, but one thing you should always
keep in your minds, as you raise your hands to raise points of
order, the person who sits here has the responsibility to
protect, Parliament has a responsibility to follow every rule
to its finality. Every day, the Speaker of Parliament signs
documents to defend Parliament from being litigated. So,
please bear with me. Thank you.
Hon members, order. Mr President, our sincerer apologies.
Apologies first for the chair – the bunk you are sitting on is
quite hard. Our sincere apologies also for your patience.
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Please bear with us. This is how it is in Parliament, and this
is all we could do to make sure that you respond to issues
people of South Africa have raised with you yesterday. Thank
you very much.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 1 — The Presidency:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I know that I’m in a very
dangerous position between yourself and your lunch and this
speech.
The SPEAKER: And the planes. I know that people are wanting to
leave. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Indeed, and the planes as well.
Thank you.
Speaker of the National Assembly, Deputy President David
Mabuza, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, 14 is the
number of times I have appeared in this Parliament since 2018
to answer oral questions put by members of this House, and may
I also say the NCOP. As Deputy President between 2014 and
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2017, I appeared 22 times in this House. Eighty-four is the
number of oral questions I have replied to in this Parliament
between 2018 and 1 June this year, out of 84 submitted to the
Presidency. As Deputy President, the number was 114 out of
114 questions submitted. Those were all answered. One hundred
and fifty-nine is the number of questions for written reply
answered by this President since 2018, out of 160 questions
submitted. ... one left.
Three full days is the number of times I as the sitting Head
of State — which in a number of places is unheard of — have
testified at two major commissions of inquiry since 2018.
Other heads of state never submit themselves to that level of
inquiry. Even when I told them I’m going some of them asked
me, what is this? Why should you as Head of State even begin
to subject yourself to such a process? The first was in
August 2020 at the Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of
State Capture and the second in April 2022 at the SA Human
Rights Commission hearings into the July 2021 uprising or
unrest. This, hon members, is the track record of this
President in meeting obligations to be accountable. This is
the evidence of this President, as well as my commitment to
account to Parliament and to the people of South Africa,
because we are a government elected by the people for the
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people, and we are accountable to the people of South Africa
for all that we do.
As I said yesterday, the people of our country must come first
in all that we do. As public representatives, we are elected
on the promise to improve the lives of our people and we are
obliged to keep that promise. It is the reason for this
government and this Parliament’s existence as well.
So, before I get to this foremost priority, I want to reassure
and indeed remind this House that accountability is a
responsibility I have never shirked or shied away from. When I
was elected, I promised that I would come to this House
regularly and answer your questions, and I have done so
faithfully. At times there may well have been problems with
programming but I have always said that if I don’t come now I
will come at a later stage.
The robbery that took place at my farm in 2020 is the subject
of a criminal complaint and the law must be allowed to take
its course. In other words, due process must be followed.
Madam Speaker, I have listened very carefully to the views of
a number of members of this House who have raised thoughts,
suggestions and proposals on this matter. Some of the views
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have been to counsel me and yet others have been laced with
insults. I will not respond to insults. I should however say
that the counsel and suggestions that have been made raises
points that I indeed should consider in the face of the advice
I have, that I should not respond to speculation, conjecture,
allegations or even so-called revelations. I will give all
these matters consideration against the backdrop of the advice
I have that this matter should be ventilated in the proper and
appropriate forums. I repeat that the law must take its course
and due process should be the order of the day in this. As a
result, I will not be responding to all these matters that
have been raised around this right now. I will take into
consideration the counsel that has been put forward.
Hon members, the Presidency occupies a unique place in
government. It is indeed the front office of government and
represents South Africa on the world stage, on our continent
and in a number of international forums. The Presidency co-
ordinates the functions of state departments and
administrations, as opposed to other government departments
that are tasked with implementing national policy and
legislation that derives from this Parliament. Above all, the
Presidency and the President is the custodian of the
Constitution, and the President is duty-bound to uphold,
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defend and protect the Constitution as the supreme law of our
country.
For all these functions to be fulfilled and the respective
responsibilities to be met, the Presidency must both build and
lead a capable, ethical and developmental state. We therefore
welcome the inputs that have been made during this debate, bar
the disruptions that we have witnessed. We welcome the
thoughts and ideas, and also the support that Parliament will
render to the Presidency to enable it to better fulfil its
mandate.
The recent meeting with the Presidency and political parties,
which as I said was initiated by Gen Bantu Holomisa, on the
issue of the crime and security situation, is an example of
the way in which we can harness the energies and thoughts of
this Parliament to address the most pressing problems our
society faces.
The finest example, however, is the regular engagements
between the Presidency and parties represented in this
Parliament at the onset of COVID-19 in 2020. That very first
meeting in March 2020 set the tone for the co-operation that
would follow. The united front presented by political parties
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and their rallying behind the national response, gave
reassurance and confidence to a fearful, terrified and
uncertain population at the time it was most needed. It was
the combined effort of the parties represented here that made
our people feel confident that we as a nation could address
COVID-19, which many other countries were failing to address
effectively.
In the ensuing months, more engagements and consultations
would follow around the lockdown and other measures. These
consultations were meaningful, deep and effective. As much as
some political parties had different perspectives from those
of the government, we were however united in our determination
to deal with COVID-19 in order to save lives and protect the
livelihoods of our people.
We can say with certainty that this strong collaboration and
partnership played no small part in the success of our
national response to the pandemic. It was a joy to see leaders
of political parties going out to their constituencies and
encouraging them to take up the measures that had been
proposed — washing hands, wearing masks and when the
vaccination process started, they were out there leading the
charge. We are grateful for that level of co-operation. One
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wishes it can continue as we tackle the more challenging
aspects of our lives.
This is what social compacting is all about. It is about co-
operation, building trust and forging consensus. It is about
building and nurturing spaces in which all voices and
viewpoints are heard and considered. It doesn’t only refer to
government, business and labour, but all of society. As
political parties, you are elected representatives of the
people of this country. You are here to speak for them and
represent their interests.
This debate has drawn attention to what I yesterday termed the
real bread and butter issues that our people are preoccupied
with. That is what they want to hear us talk about. As the hon
Herron rightly put it, our priority at this time is to achieve
a just and prosperous South Africa based on spatial, social,
economic and environmental justice.
In my reply to last year’s Presidency Budget Vote, I said that
we were determined to stay the course on our reform programme
in order to restore our economy, to attract new levels of
investment, to create massive jobs, to boost wages and to
increase opportunities for all South Africans.
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Yesterday, I outlined the process we have made, not only as
the Presidency but as a country, in meeting these goals. This
framing was deliberate and conscious. Hon Mbhele, you may well
have dismissed what we said as an update and update and so
forth. What we were talking about is real. These are
initiatives that are underway to restructure our economy and
reboot it so that it becomes an economy that can respond to
the needs of our people. In line with its co-ordinating role,
the Presidency is driving the reform process from the centre.
Some hon members have described the process of co-ordination
through the Presidency as creating what they call a super
Presidency and is an overcentralisation of power. Far from it.
We have found that this work that we are involved in,
particularly in this era, is about strengthening the capacity
of the state. It is about addressing that priority that we
have often highlighted. We are helping to streamline and align
government functions, assisting to manage and mitigate
bureaucratic hurdles and fulfilling our critical oversight
role.
The National Development Plan, NDP, lays out our vision for
South Africa and that vision is still current. However, we
must say that at its heart it is about eliminating poverty and
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reducing inequality. The enablers of this vision are an
inclusive and transformed economy, an enhanced state capacity
and partnerships right across society.
In recent times, a number of reports and studies have
indicated that, yes, we may and will not meet our 2030 targets
under the NDP because the problems that we have had to deal
with are immense. However, this should not stop us from trying
and from doing as much as we can to try to meet some of those
targets.
We must ensure that the NDP is implemented, as the hon Jafta
emphasised. Furthermore, we thank the hon Jafta for
acknowledging the strides that have been made in reviving our
economy through the investment drive that we have embarked
upon through the conferences that we have been holding, the
Youth Employment Service and various other initiatives. In
these intervening years, we have to redouble our efforts and
may I say work even harder, because as elected representatives
we have an obligation to improve the material conditions of
every South African man, woman and child.
We have positioned ourselves as a transformative
administration. Transformation takes time. It does not happen
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overnight. However, when the right decisions are made, at the
right time, guided by the right course of action based on good
policies, progress results. Most importantly, the foundations
upon which any economic recovery is built have to be solid,
they have to be coherent and they also have to be catalytic,
and in a way also disruptive.
In the Presidency Budget Vote last year, I outlined key
economic reform measures that were underway or were in
process, driven by Operation Vulindlela. The majority of these
have subsequently been passed, including those that I
highlighted yesterday in transportation, electricity, energy,
telecoms and water infrastructure. This year, through
Operation Vulindlela supported by the Project Management
Office in the Presidency and the Red Tape Reduction team, we
aim to deliver even more.
Security of energy supply has had a direct material impact on
domestic and international investor confidence, which in turn
leads to a favourable business environment that creates more
jobs. That is why supporting the process of structural reform
in the energy sector has been one of our most overriding
priorities in the Presidency. The energy reform process is
aimed in part at addressing our immediate challenges. Whoever
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anyone meets about investments and growing the economy, they
always raise the issue of energy.
Yesterday I outlined progress in the renewable energy
procurement programme, the conclusion of power purchase
agreements for three risk mitigation projects and measures
that we will be taking to close the electricity gap. However,
the ultimate objective is to fundamentally transform the
energy landscape, create a new competitive electricity market
and most importantly, decarbonise our economy. For this
reason, the Just ... Transition Partnership with the new
Climate Finance Office in the Presidency will be mobilising
resources and will be a game changer. This is the work being
undertaken as we are committed to transformative, inclusive
and sustainable development.
Two years ago, the Presidency set its transformative sights on
the labour market. It was at a time when private-sector job
creation was constrained and hampered by the pandemic and many
livelihoods were in danger or had been lost. Working with
social partners and government departments, we designed a
brand new way of addressing this challenge that we were
facing, and we have been driving the implementation of the
largest mass public employment programme in our country’s
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history. Many people have never really noticed that for the
very first time in our country we were able, within a short
space of time, to get to a point where we created 900 000 job
opportunities for a number of young people and women, and that
in itself is something that we should recognise. [Applause.]
To date, this employment stimulus has successfully provided
work opportunities to all those people who are beneficiaries,
who would otherwise not have been absorbed by the constrained
job market. Companies were not employing people. In fact, they
were shedding jobs and we had a cohort of young people, as
well as women, who were twiddling their thumbs, who needed to
be absorbed into some measure of economic activity.
Hon Mbhele, we know that it is our youth who are suffering the
most from unemployment and exclusion. That is why, as I said,
the majority of the almost close on one million beneficiaries
of this ground-breaking programme have been young people. To
be exact, 84% of them have been young people and 62% female.
The second phase is supporting the Presidential Youth
Employment Intervention and the Social Employment Fund that
we’ve just set up, where we also expect young people to be the
primary beneficiaries.
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The Presidency has been championing the drive to transform the
capacity of the state. Our vision is to realise a state that
is fit for purpose to serve communities, and that brings
targeted and inclusive development to where people live, study
and work.
The District Development Model, DDM, is an initiative that we
came up with and which was launched at a pilot site in the O R
Tambo District in 2020. Although the onset of the pandemic set
our efforts to roll out the DDM back, the process has resumed
in earnest. As part of operationalising this model, the
Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
has been working with districts and municipalities to finalise
their One Plans. These One Plans outline the respective
approaches of districts to resolve service-delivery
challenges, to enhance economic development, and to ensure
that there is job creation and key deliverables.
The Presidential imbizos have been a means through which the
Presidency exercises oversight over the progress that is being
made, and as I said yesterday, we plan to visit the six
remaining provinces this year. Hon Hendricks has expressed a
wish that the imbizo in the Western Cape should be held on the
Cape Flats. Hon Hendricks, your request will be given serious
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consideration. I would like us to be here in the Western Cape.
[Applause.] This will be an opportunity to listen to the life
experiences and concerns of our people in the Western Cape,
and no doubt such an imbizo will bring in people from a number
of surrounding areas where our people live.
District-based development is a transformation of government
planning. It is a break from the past where departments worked
in silos, where there was fruitless expenditure on irrelevant
projects — a practice that was common — and where development
was not aligned to national objectives. Now, with the DDM we
have an opportunity to disrupt the very bad ways in which we
were working.
Once this model is fully institutionalised, it will result in
better use of resources, targeted development and responsive
planning. It will also help us to have a microscopic look at
our local government challenges. Challenges that we are now
beginning to address, together with the Auditor-General, who
has informed us that, that is where the real challenge is for
us. It will enable districts and municipalities to develop,
but also harness existing local economic initiatives such as
Special Economic Zones, industrial parks, and agri-hubs as
well. Some hon members mentioned some of this yesterday. We
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have set ourselves the target of rolling out the DDM in all
52 of the country’s districts as well as our metros, and we
will be proceeding with this.
As we proceed, it goes without saying that rebuilding state
institutional capacity is transformative by its very nature.
It was this Presidency that instituted high-level commissions
of inquiry into the workings of the SA Revenue Service, Sars,
and the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA.
Credibility has been restored to these institutions as they
implemented the recommendations of the respective commissions.
By way of example, in the last financial year Sars collected a
record revenue of R1,5 trillion. Four years since I appointed
a commission of inquiry into administration and governance at
Sars, its turnaround has been spectacular. This revenue
enables the state to fund social support, social
infrastructure and many other projects. These are the fruits
of the reform process that we have undertaken.
The hon Shaik Emam has called on us to deal decisively with
corruption at local government level, and we agree with him. I
am pleased to report that the work of the SAPS Clean Audit
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Task Team is ongoing and has seen a number of arrests for
fraud and corruption at local government level.
As the Presidency, another focus for this year is supporting
the respective departments to implement the recommendations of
a number of high-level commissions appointed by the President.
Yesterday, hon Groenewald spoke about a number of Special
Investigating Unit, SIU, reports whose recommendations have
not been implemented. These are going to be followed ... and
we will make sure that recommendations that are made by the
SIU — he mentioned 464 of them — will also be followed up.
As I indicated yesterday, a number of recommendations made by
the expert panel into the July 2021 unrest have already been
implemented. That process is ongoing. Notably, restoring
stability in the leadership of the State Security Agency, the
SA Police Service as well as Crime Intelligence has proceeded
in tandem and we are beginning to see some good results.
Yesterday, the Deputy President also outlined the considerable
progress that has been made in implementing the
recommendations of the Advisory Panel on Land Reform and
Agriculture. It’s a matter that hon Nyhontso also raised. It
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was not only about land, but of course he also raised the
issue of military veterans. The Deputy President is addressing
that at my instance and he reports to me about the progress.
We must repeat that we hold the contributions that military
veterans have made to the democracy that we enjoy today ...
because they played an important role. These were men and
women who were prepared to sacrifice life, limb and everything
else. So that process of looking after our military veterans
is ongoing and we will make sure that we address the various
issues that are a challenge to their lives.
Accountability is the cornerstone of any transformative vision
if it is to be realised. No more critical is this than in the
fight against corruption. A number of speakers have drawn
attention to the fact that departments are often slow in
following up on the implementation of recommendations. As I
said with regard to the SIU reports ... as hon Groenewald said
... is going to be followed up. As I said yesterday, the
Presidency will ensure that the recommendations are acted
upon.
Furthermore, we will continue to lend support and weight to
the highest office in the land to the work of the
multidisciplinary offices that we have set up, for instance
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the Fusion Centre, the Hawks, the SAPS, the NPA’s
Investigating Directorate and all entities involved in the war
against crime. We will soon be making an announcement on the
anticorruption advisory body that we announced we would be
setting up.
Once again, hon Groenewald has called on government to focus
on strengthening the criminal justice system to deal
decisively with all forms of criminality that impacts on
people’s daily lives. This begins, fundamentally, with
improving policing, as he has often said. The re-establishment
of community policing forums, CPFs, the entry of new police
recruits and the strengthening of public order policing will
be further strengthened and ensure that the job that the SA
Police has to do — that is tough — is supported as much as
possible, because they do a thankless task for the most part.
Our task is a formidable one but I have no doubt that we are
gaining ground. Our economic recovery is gathering pace. The
health recovery from the pandemic is proceeding. We are
steadily rebuilding the capacity of the state which we’ve
often said was really compromised and almost destroyed during
state capture times.
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As the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services told this
House yesterday, our law enforcement agencies are clawing back
on malfeasance and corruption, and are doing so without fear,
favour or prejudice. Despite our many challenges, we are some
way off from the South Africa that we were a year, two years
or even three years ago. When COVID-19 struck in early 2020,
there were many who believed we would collapse under the heavy
weight of this burden. Yet, we pulled through, having been
able to mitigate the health impact and provide social support
to the most vulnerable in our country, possibly in the most
outstanding way than any other country on our continent.
The recovery that was promised is slowly coming to pass.
Factories are back in full production and new ones are being
opened. Small businesses and local economies are being
revitalised and jobs are beginning to be created. That is the
important part that we should look at. [Applause.] Domestic
and international investment is picking up. Many never thought
that we would ever reach that R1 trillion investment target
that I put. We are almost there. Public-private partnerships
are being forged to close developmental lags and to grow the
economy.
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So today we must again prove the naysayers wrong as we
confront the economic and social challenges of the day that we
are living in. We can do so if we work together and we can
also do so if we join hands.
Now, addressing some of the specific issues that were raised,
it pained my heart to hear Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi
outlining an interaction or some of the things that were said
by a premier of a province. I am going to be talking to Prince
Buthelezi to see if there can be a good rapprochement between
the two of them. [Applause.] I think that is important. It is
important that we should do so. It really pained me when I
heard him articulating this.
Hon Tshabalala raised the issue of Eskom, particularly in
relation to the switching off of lights in Soweto. Now, that
too I would want to follow up because we need to find out why
it could’ve happened and whether they had deep consultations
or not.
Hon Groenewald — I told him before he left — raised the issue
of the Afrikaanse Taalmonument [Afrikaans Language Monument].
I said that, from what I had heard from Minister Mthethwa,
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that was not the case. However, he has said that he wants to
have a further discussion with me on this matter.
It has been a spirited and lively debate on the key issues
that have to do with the lives of our people. There have been
many robust views that were put forward. We are grateful for
this barometer of the health of our democracy. At the same
time, let us remain focused. Let us put our heads together on
how best we support the work that we are doing and indeed work
together during the life of this entire administration.
A well-capacitated, strategically oriented Presidency, driven
by a long-term transformative vision, is in all our best
interests. For every few civil servants who are guided by
self-interest, the vast majority are dedicated, ethical and
committed to their work. They are the men and women who work
tirelessly each day to serve our people in government, in
hospitals, in police stations and in our schools. They are the
lifeblood of our country.
I would like to express my gratitude to you all as Members of
Parliament — members of this Assembly — on my behalf and on
behalf of the state that I lead, for the tireless work that
you all are doing in representing our people. Many of our
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people sometimes don’t really know and understand the heavy
burden that rests on your shoulders. They just don’t
understand. Many of you have to leave your homes from all over
the country, come and work here in Cape Town, and work day in
and day out. You run two households. You have a home from
wherever you come and you have a home here. When I became a
Member of Parliament, I realised I had left my family in
Johannesburg and I was here. When I bought bread I bought two
loaves of bread. When I bought a TV set I had to buy two.
Everything was duplicated. It bears a heavy burden on
yourselves, on your livelihood, on your social life, but also
financially. I know ... and many people don’t understand this.
They think that as Members of Parliament you are all fat cats.
That’s hardly the case. Hardly the case. So, I’m ...
[Interjections.] Please say it was a joke. [Laughter.] So I’d
like to thank you on behalf of the people of South Africa for
the excellent work that you do. You pass our laws. We impose
heavy burdens on all of you and the intellectual capacity that
you put in the work that you do is to be commended. So thank
you very much, on behalf of the nation. I thank you.
[Applause.]
However, I would like ...
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IsiXhosa:
Hayi, andikagqibi. Andikagqibi, uyaphi? Andikagqibi Mhlekazi.
English:
The SPEAKER: ... [Inaudible.] ... President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I would like to thank the
Deputy President for his support and for the excellent manner
in which we have both been executing the tasks that we were
given by our people. The Deputy President has taken on many
more tasks, enabling our Office to be more effective and
efficient in tackling important matters that should lead to
the improvement of our people’s lives. When I’m not able to
handle certain matters, like traditional leaders and so on, he
comes into the breach and assists. So I thank him.
I would also like to thank Ministers who are in the
Presidency. Minister Nkoana-Mashabane, Minister Gungubele and
Deputy Ministers Kodwa, Kekana and Siweya who are deployed in
the Presidency for their continued dedication to serve our
people in their various tasks. So thank you very much.
[Applause.]
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I would also like to thank the Director-General of the
government and the Cabinet secretary for the brave manner in
which she has performed her duties ... [Applause.] ... and as
Director-General in the Office. The team in the Presidency are
the unsung heroes of our work that is being done to move our
country forward.
I wish to thank all the staff in the Presidency, the staff in
my private office and those in the Deputy President’s private
office for continuing to support us and making it a lot easier
for us to do our work. This includes our respective advisers.
So, hon members ... [Laughter.] ... Yes, and our two
parliamentary counsellors of course. [Applause.] We really
thank them because they keep us in touch with what is
happening here in Parliament, much as we are not often here.
[Interjections.]
Well, not only the Chief Whip of the governing party but the
Chief Whip of the Opposition as well. They do a magnificent
job and that is the sisterhood that sits here at the head of
the table. [Applause.]
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So hon members, for me ... and the brothers as well. For me
this has been a meaningful debate, disrupt ... despite
everything else that happened around it, which is unfortunate,
and which in my view is totally unacceptable because we do
need to rely on the due processes that we have. Even as we
have differences, we should rely on the processes of our
democracy to unfold, to handle problems. Whatever problems we
may have, whether they touch on the President or whoever, they
are processes that need to be followed. So hon members, let us
get back to work. Let us ensure that we leave no-one behind
and enrich the democracy of our country. Thank you very much.
An HON MEMBER: Long live the President!
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Point of order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Order! Thank you, Mr President. Hon members, in
order that there be no confusion, no member who was part of
the sitting was unable to listen to the President’s speech.
The platform was muted as the Speaker had formed the view that
the points of order procedure was being abused. The Rules,
specifically Rule 80, allows presiding officers to disable or
switch off microphones if they become aware that a member or
members are not showing due respect to the authority of the
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presiding officers, are not obeying directions of the
presiding officers or are involved in disruptive or grossly
disorderly conduct.
In terms of Rule 26(2) and (3), the Speaker must maintain and
preserve the order of and proper decorum in the House. The
Speaker must act fairly and impartially, and apply the Rules
with due regard to the participation of members of all parties
in a manner consistent with our democracy.
As Speaker, I must balance the rights of individual members
against the collective right of the House to perform its
constitutional mandate. I do not take this responsibility
lightly. When I have instructed that the microphones on the
virtual platform be switched off, it is precisely to ensure
that the Assembly is able to fulfil its constitutional
mandate. It is not a step taken lightly or without due regard
for first exhausting all other mechanisms for restoring order
in the Chamber.
Hon members, it was a difficult two days and I really hope and
pray to God for wisdom to ensure that there is no repetition
of what happened. As I said earlier on, we may differ, we come
from different political parties, we stand for different
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ideologies and we have different programmes. However, ... the
manner that we must relate to one another, there should be
some semblance of mutual respect. The manner in which we
handle issues ... We come from far, hon members. Some of us
are like part of the furniture in this Assembly. We came here
in 1994, being ... different political parties. We came here
being warring groups of people. We came here, we worked
together to draw up the Constitution as part of the
Constitutional Assembly led by the President. We were here, we
drew up legislation. It was a difficult period where, for the
first time we came together as people who were fighting one
another. However, in spite of all that, we never witnessed the
kind of arrogance and disregard for people, and the lack of
respect as what we witnessed here this morning. We never
fought physically. We would always heckle at one another but
at the end of it all we learnt to understand one another and
all of us appreciated what each one of us stood for. That was
in 1994. It cannot be that 28 years later we have this kind of
conduct. It is taking us back to where we come from. We do not
need this. We do not need to label one another. We are all
here representing the people of South Africa. Hon members, I
thank you for your patience. I thank you for your
understanding. It was not easy for me sitting here but I can
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assure you it will not happen again. Thank you, hon members.
[Applause.] The session is adjourned.
An HON MEMBER: Long live the Speaker!
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 14:13.
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