Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 30 Mar 2022

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID) [GHC]

The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN MR MATAMELA CYRIL RAMAPHOSA ASPRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA IN TERMS OF SECTION102(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF SOUTH AFRICA OF 1996
(Draft Resolution)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, order! Hon members, in the interest of safety for all present in the Chamber, please keep your masks on and sit at your designated area. Thank you. The first item on the Order Paper is a motion moved in terms of section 102(2) of the Constitution in the name of the hon V Zungula. I now recognise the hon Zungula to move the motion.

Mr V ZUNGULA: On a point of order, Speaker. Speaker, on Rule 89 of the Rules of Parliament which clearly states that no member of Parliament may reflect on the merits of any case that is before the court. As you are aware, Speaker, there’s an ongoing litigation between ourselves as the ATM and you as a Speaker. Therefore, we cannot proceed with the motion because the matter of the ... [Inaudible.] which is to vote by secret ballot is still under judicial review. Therefore, there’s no way in which we can still proceed with that vote.

The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bring it on what, order! It’s going to be a long afternoon, hon members. Now, yes, hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, Speaker, thank you very much. I think that it’s basic logic if the person who once introduced the motion says that we can’t proceed with the motion because the secret ballot has not been granted, we must not force it. We need a secret ballot so that we can remove Cyril Ramaphosa in the same way we did before. We need to be presented with the secret ballot. Therefore, allow the court process to conclude in terms
of what happens because in the same way we went to court before to demand the secret ballot, we will have a process of getting a secret ballot that must ultimately give us an opportunity to emove the useless sitting President of the ANC.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, order! I’ve noted what you’ve just said and will not allow anyone to make a point of order and you will withdraw that later. Hon members, in order for the House to consider a member’s motion it should be first ... [Interjections.] ... order! Order, hon member! Okay, alright,
order! Shivambu! Hon members! Hon members! Hon members, order! Order! Order, hon members! Hon Shivambu! Hon Shivambu! Hon Shivambu! No, hon members. Hon Shivambu! Hon members from the DA will you please take your seats. Please take your seats. Serjeant-at-arms will you please sort out the seating arrangements.

Hon members! Hon members, I thought that we are honourable not only are we honourable ... [Interjections.] ... no, hon members, you’re not going to do that. I am saying that we have a long session here and all of ... [Interjections.] ... no, no, no, comrades and hon members, please. No, hon members no, no, all I am requesting is mutual respect amongst ourselves. Yes, somebody had occupied a seat and that matter could have been easily resolved by the Serjeant-at-arms. I have since requested the Serjeant-at-arms to sort out that problem, please. In order for the House to consider a member’s motion it should first be moved by the member consent. In view of the fact that the member has declined to move the motion there is, in fact, nothing before the House to debate. Therefore, we will shortly proceed to the next item. If this event ... [Interjections.] ...the motion ... [Interjections.] ... hon member!

Mr V ZUNGULA: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: I can’t see you.
Mr V ZUNGULA: I’d risen a point of order, I did not conclude and you did not rule. Therefore, it baffles me that now you are moving on whereas I did not conclude. It shows that you are not fair in this entire process and this is what I’m raising to you now that you lack fairness in the entire process ...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon Zungula, I think you are very quick to judge the issue. I did not realise that you have not finished
... [Interjections.]
Mr V ZUNGULA: I’m not judging, Speaker. I’m saying that according to the rules when I’m speaking you need to let me finish and after I’ve finished, you rule. You did not do that so
... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Finish that. Finish that and also I think, hon members, and I want to request the Whips to look into this or the Rules Committee. I think it will be proper that when a member ... I know that our microphones are very short and maybe it’s very difficult and I can’t - when a person says a point of order I can hardly see you actually. Therefore, I’m not meaning to disrespect you, but I do want to make an appeal to the Rules Committee that they reconsider the position of people speaking while seated. I do want to make that request. Hon Zungula, truly and I do want to apologise for that. I did not realise that you had not finished your speech. You may proceed.

Mr V ZUNGULA: Thank you, Speaker. Therefore, in accordance to Rule 89, Speaker, and I don’t want the House to say that I declined to move the motion. It is the Rules of Parliament that prohibits that this sitting continues because the matter of a secret ballot is still before the court. The court on Monday ruled that it is not urgent that the case could be heard on Monday and a judgement could be delivered by today. However, that matter is still before the courts. Therefore, we cannot proceed with a motion and the method of voting is still under judicial review.

Secondly, we cannot withdraw a motion simply because you could not convene the Programming Committee and us to postpone. The Programming Committee members are here now. On Monday when we wrote to you, you could have immediately convened the Programming Committee and us that it meets to hear the views of the members of the committee in order to postpone, you did not do that. The members are here now, and they could also postpone the matter. Therefore, I want to make it clear to you, Speaker. Number one, we are not proceeding. Number two, we are not withdrawing up until this matter gets to be finalised by the court. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: I thank you, hon Zungula. Hon members, I have no intentions of spending a lot of time on this matter. I am advised by the Legal Services of Parliament that, in fact, this matter is not sub judice. Precisely because ... [Interjections.]
... please hon members of the ANC. Hon Zungula, this matter is not sub judice, the court actually did not say that they are postponing the matter, they said clearly because you went to the court two days before the motion was passed. Therefore, it points to the fact that there is no urgency in the matter. When they say that there’s no urgency on the matter and do not rule on the matter, what it means is that the matter has fallen off the court roll. Therefore, I thought some of you understand. I’m not a legal person ... [Interjections.]

Mr V ZUNGULA: No, no, Speaker. No, no, no, no.
IsiZulu:
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Yekani ukumemeza! Yekani ukumemeza nizosenza izilima. Yekani ukumemeza nizosenza izilima.
Ms T L MARAWU: Hon Speaker! Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we are not in a concert. We are not in a concert and this is not a rally, it’s a Chamber and it is an Assembly of Members of Parliament and it applies to all of you
... [Interjections.] ... Hon Papo, I do understand how you feel about it, but I’m saying for now that give me an opportunity to Chair the session as Speaker as I have ruled. Please, be patient with one another and let’s stop being judgemental, just bear with me for now, I am trying to manage a very difficult and complex situation. Therefore, I’m referring to all of you, hon members.
Ms T L MARAWU: Hon Speaker!

The SPEAKER: Is that a point of order?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, it is, but nothing to do with the issue that is going on at hand, just to let you know that there are members that cannot get on to the platform. So, there are numerous members that aren’t on the platform that are in the waiting room. Therefore, if you could please ask the information technology, IT, just to fix that because we assume that it’s members that should be participating. Thank you so much.

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member. We will ask the Table staff to sort that out.
Ms T L MARAWU: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Say on a point of order, don’t just say “hon Speaker.” On a point of order, then I recognise you.
Ms T L MARAWU: On a point of order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Who is that and where is that person, hon member?
Ms T L MARAWU: I’m here on virtual platform, hon Speaker.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 9
The SPEAKER: Yes, you are granted the floor.
Ms T L MARAWU: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. I beg to differ
with the legal team because when it is said that the case
doesn’t deserve urgency which means the case is on, but the
urgent part of it is not necessary. Therefore, we are saying as
ATM that the judgement is saying that the court didn’t grant the
urgency part of it. It will follow the normal processes which
are not urgent, not it is taken off the roll. Thank you,
Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Marawu. Now, hon Dlakude
followed by hon Dyantyi.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Speaker. On Speaker, on a point of procedure, I think
that, hon Speaker, you received an advice from the Parliamentary
Legal Services. Therefore, if there is anyone who do not agree
with it, the person must take this matter back to the court. You
have made your ruling. Thank you very much, can we proceed with
the business of this House. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Dlakude. At this point,
hon members, I will allow hon Dyantyi to speak, after which I


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 10
will allow each party one minute to make a comment so that the
legal matters can be looked after later. We deal with the
process as it is right now and the fact is that the motion is
not before the House, therefore, hon Dyantyi.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. I have already
been covered comprehensively by hon Dlakude. The point I was
rising on was on the point of procedure because you were in the
middle of your ruling ... [Interjections.] ... Can I be
protected, hon Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hon members, hon members, hon members! hon member!
... [Interjections.] ... hon Ntlangwini, hon Mantashe and hon
members, I will not have this right at the beginning of a
motion, right at the beginning of our session. Hon Mantwe, wait!
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Is hon Maotwe not Mantwe.
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... Mantwe ... Maotwe. I am sorry, but
hon Maotwe, would you, please, exercise discipline. Hon Mente,
hon Mantashe! Hon members, what is happening? Hon members, what
is happening? Hon members, we have two motions before us and I
am ruling on the first motion. I don’t understand. Hon members,
honestly I will not tolerate what is happening. In terms of the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 11
Rules I will request the Serjeant-at-arms. If it repeats itself
I will give you a warning, I will call your name and I will
allow you to recuse yourself from the session. Yes, hon members,
that is exactly what will happen right here in this session.
Thank you. Hon Dyantyi, please, finish what you were saying.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Thank you, hon Speaker. I was saying that in the
middle of your ruling you had a member interrupting you. It is
not allowed. You could not even complete your Ruling and hon
Zungula interfered with you. That should not be done. I am
hoping that, that procedure must be maintained in this House.
Thank you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Dyantyi ... no masks ...
Mr A H M PAPO: ... there are members who are violating the
agreement. They are not wearing masks in the House and this is
an enclosed area.
The SPEAKER: Okay. Hon members, would you, please, put on your
masks. Hon Mazzone, will you, please, lower your hand. Hon
members, I said earlier on that we have been advised by the
legal services that this matter at this point is not a sub
judice matter. Now, hon members, If I may, as I have ruled,


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 12
recognise the different parties who are here and allow them to
make a statement each. I now invite the hon Majodina from the
ANC, Chief Whip.
IsiXhosa:
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEQELA ELILAWULAYO: Ndiyabulela kuwe
Somlomo. Le meko yenzeka apha yokuba kubekho isiNdululo siphinde
kwaye sibe ngungqikana esingenamntu waso ... [Uwele-wele.] ...
An HON MEMBER: ... Order! Order! Order!
The SPEAKER: Point of order! Yes, Sisi, I recognise you. Hon
member!
isiXhosa:
Nksz T L MARAWU: Asikhange sibe ngungqikana, sinomntu waso esi
siNdululo. Asikhange sibe ngungqikana ...
The SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. Hon Marawu ...
[Interjections.] ...
Ms T L MARAWU: ... but we are saying to table our position ...
Point of order, Chief Whip ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 13
IsiXhosa:
... ayinguye ungqikana, ayikhange iqalise.
The SPEAKER: Hon Marawu, you will make that point when your turn
comes. It is not a point of order, Sisi. Please, switch off your
... mute. Please, continue and you have one minute.
IsiXhosa:
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEQELA ELILAWULAYO: Sithi ke thina siyi-ANC
masiwe isiNdululo kuba akukho nto isenkundleni ngokwengxelo
esiyifumeneyo kuba kuthiwa ...
English:
... it has been struck off the roll, it is not sub judice.
IsiXhosa:
Loo nto ithi abanaso isindululo kwaye kokwesithathu ngoku,
ukusukela kowama-2020, 2021, 2022. Ayiphakami phantsi nto nje
kuzungulwa ichele nguZungula. Uzakulizungula ichele ke uZungula
angalifumani. Siyi-ANC sikulungele ukuthi makayibek’apha
siqubisane naye. Enkosi.
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Ulungile alizungul’ichele, ulungile.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 14
The SPEAKER: Hon Marawu, I will throw you out of the system. You
are doing this for the second time now, please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much, Madam
Speaker. Madam Speaker, first I will refer to Rule 89 of our
Rules of Parliament, which we all know are the matters of sub
judice, which say that; no member may reflect upon the merits of
any matter on which a judicial decision in the Court of Law is
pending. Then, I would like to refer to the response which I
gave last night to the leader of the ATM when contacted about
this particular motion and - if you allow me - I will read
verbatim what my response was.
I said, I think you have a complete misrepresentation of Rule 89
and what the sub judice Rule is. It has been completely outdated
in the ... [Inaudible.] ... rulings and only merits of the case
may not be discussed. The process that happens in Parliament is
a completely separate issue to your issue before the courts.
May I also add that there is nothing on the court roll at
present. So, nothing could possibly be sub judice. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: ... [Interjections.] ... Order! Order! Order! Hon
members, order! Hon members, please, let us behave like adults


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 15
and leaders of our parties. I plead with all of you. I really
plead with all of you and by the way, from both sides. I don’t
know what is happening. I don’t know why we are so excited. This
is not a laughing matter, you know. Let us be disciplined as
adults and leaders ... [Interjections.] ...
An HON MEMBER: ... Lindiwe Zulu ...
The SPEAKER: ... no, honestly, we are dealing with serious
matters here. We have two motions here before us and we are
likely to adjourn this session at midnight. Thank you very much.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you, Speaker. The issue of whether a
matter is before a court of law is not subject to an opinion of
a legal office of Parliament. It is a factual issue and the
people who have subjected the matter to judicial review are
saying that they put it before the court. The court said that it
is not an urgent matter. It is currently on a normal roll where
they will challenge the decision which you took to refuse the
usage of secret ballot to determine whether the incumbent
President remains in office or not.
So, that is a factual issue which the people who have subjected
it to judicial review are saying is the case. Legitimately, the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 16
ATM is saying that we can’t proceed fairly with the motion of no
confidence if we will not be granted an opportunity to use a
secret ballot because we know as a matter of fact that once the
secret ballot comes, we will split the ANC vote into half and
vote out your incumbent President ... [Interjections.] ... we
did that before. We have the capacity to do it. We did it before
... [Interjections.] ... your own President. We have experience
on these things. So, we are not just talking about it. So, give
us the secret ballot and then we will finish.
Mr W T LETSIE: You are dreaming ... [Interjections.] ... you are
dreaming, Shivambu ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... it is not an opinion issue it is a fact
that the issue is before the courts ...
Ms M R SEMENYA: ... ai suka, Shivambu, you are dreaming ...
[Interjections.] ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... judicial review, we will then remove the
incumbent President ... [Interjections.] ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 17
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: ... it will not happen, Floyd, it
will not happen. No secret ballot, Floyd! It will not happen. Go
to the ... [Time expired.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, firstly, there is clear distinction
between ongoing litigation and a matter before the court. When a
matter is before the court it becomes sub judice if we have to
discuss it here. But we are here on an ongoing litigation, which
is not the same as before the court. But having said that,
whether the matter is sub judice or not, it is a matter for
debate and discussion between the legal advisors.
What we have before us is that the mover of the motion has
indicated that they do not want the motion debated today. The
motion has been placed on the Order Paper because the
programming committee chose to do that because that’s their
responsibility.
I would like to suggest that this matter be referred to the
programming committee which will sit tomorrow so that they can
take the matter forward from there, on whether the order should
remain on the Order Paper or be expunged completely. Because, if
it remains on the Order Paper it also denies any other political


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 18
party an opportunity from bringing a similar motion before this
House. Thank you.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, colleagues, I believe Rule 89 is
most unlikely unconstitutional and outdated, that deals with sub
judice, and is most likely in conflict with section 16 of the
Constitution that allows freedom of expression. We cannot have a
situation where Parliament cannot function because somebody has
gone off to court. It cannot be like that. We have to proceed
with our business.
Secondly, the fact of the matter is that there was an urgent
application before the court and it was struck down. Currently,
there is nothing in front of the court, nothing at all. Even if
a sub judice still existed, it would still allow us to proceed.
The sub judice is not relevant because currently there is
nothing in front of the court.
The proceedings of this afternoon started off with the hon
member making a point of order. You have entertained the point
of order. I would suggest that the way forward would now be to
ask the member to move his motion. If he does not move his
motion, it falls off the Order Paper and we proceed.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 19
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, the ACDP is ready to continue with the
debate today as everybody else is.
Mr A H M PAPO: On a point of order, Speaker. Again, there are
members in the House who are completely flagrantly violating the
issue of the masks. It’s a problem because we agreed to use this
venue on the basis that we wear masks every time when we are not
on the platform.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. You have made your point, hon
Papo. Hon members, will you please wear your masks. Keep your
masks on, unless you are on the floor. Hon Swart, you may
proceed.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Speaker. As I was indicating, the ACDP
is ready to continue with the debate today in terms of section
102 as it is obviously a very important mechanism for holding
the President accountable as filed by the Constitutional Court.
However, we do appreciate the issue surrounding the sub judice
rule and in our experience, the sub judice rule is often abused
to stop Parliament from doing its very necessary oversight work.
So we appreciate that there may be different legal opinions. The
Parliament legal opinion has indicated that the matter is not


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 20
sub judice and obviously the ATM could hold a different view. We
would tend of agree that the matter should be dealt with by the
programming committee and the issue of sub judice should again
be referred to the rules committee for consideration. But we
appreciate because there is no motion before the House, the
debate cannot continue. I thank you, Speaker.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, we can’t accept double standards. Now
all of a sudden you are saying the matter is not sub judice. But
it was sub judice when you scheduled it in the first place. And,
we warned you about it even last week in the programming
committee as the UDM. We asked for this matter to be scheduled
for the period after recess to say to deal with all those issues
but it seems like you want to deal with it in haste. That is now
why you have this problem.
IsiXhosa:
Ningandingen’emlonyeni, andikhange ndithethe nani ngoku
benithetha. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow hon Kwankwa to express himself.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: I want to ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 21
IsiXhosa:
... ndizakubafundisa ...
English:
They were not even in the programming committee. I was one of
the people who said; specifically, on behalf of the UDM, that
what needs to happen is that we said a decision had to be taken
last week to the programming committee on how to deal with this
motion today.
The Deputy Speaker deferred the matter to you. He said it was
not up to the programming committee to make that decision, it
was up to your discretion. Now all of a sudden when you are
expected to make that decision you are referring it back to the
programming committee. It’s almost like you are playing footsie
footsie under the table with the ATM on this matter.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon Kwankwa, you may take your
seat. Point of order...
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, the
hon member is misrepresenting you. The fact is that the Speaker
made her own discretion by putting the motion on the Order Paper


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 22
by saying that it will be an open vote. That is the Speaker’s
discretion. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Maotwe
Ms M O C MAOTWE: Speaker, what is her point of order because she
is debating now? And the ANC was given an opportunity to speak.
So, why is she responding to him? You can’t allow that Speaker
because we are going to want to respond as well. She is out of
order and she must sit down.
The SPEAKER: Hon Dlakude, that was a point of debate.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yes, they don’t have to respond.
The SPEAKER: May I proceed to recognise the ATM. No! Before
that, can we just define the rules of the game on this matter. I
don’t know what is happening, but what I am observing is that
people are determined to make mockery of what we are trying to
do here today. I don’t think it is correct, hon members.
As a Presiding Officer, I am presiding on two motions which were
put on the table by yourselves, political parties. I don’t think
that it is fair that we should come here being combative and


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 23
engaging in a manner in which we are doing right now. It’s
unacceptable, hon members, with due respect. It is unacceptable.
I expect all of us to behave in a responsible manner. I have
allowed that each party should take a minute to express its
views on the matter. I will not accept a situation where hon
members are going to be shouting at one another from their
seats. Hon members, it is unacceptable.
Hon members, we can engage, we can express our views, we can
have a dialogue without behaving in the manner in which we are
behaving in right now. And I want to make it clear to all of us,
myself included, that it is not going to help us to be combative
when we deal with this matter. All that is required is for us to
take the floor and you raise the issues in a manner which will
be acceptable.
South Africans are watching us this afternoon and they expect us
to conduct ourselves with respect and dignity. I don’t think
that I want to repeat what I am saying here right now at this
point. I will not do it, hon members. A manner in which we are
doing it now is like we are in some rally or some street
somewhere, and we are not. We are in a Chamber. We are in an
Assembly of Members of Parliament.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 24
I want to make a plea to all of us, and myself included, let’s
be patient with one another. Let’s not lose our temper. The way
that we are doing things now, we are being very rude, actually,
if I may put it cruelty. We are being very rude and we are hon
members. Serjeant-at-arms, I hope when I call on you to move,
you will do exactly that. That’s all I’m saying now. Hon
members, I now allow the ATM to express itself, followed by
GOOD.
Mr V ZUNGULA: Thank you Speaker. Speaker there is a case number
from court that clearly shows that there is an ongoing court
process on this matter. Now, the fact that on Monday the judge
said it is not urgent does not it is not in the court processes
for it to be decided on.
The second issue is that there is conflict or disagreement
between us as a party and you as the Speaker on the method of
voting and that is before the courts. We can’t proceed in this
motion and vote whereas the method of voting is still subjected
to judicial review.
Lastly on the question of withdrawing, we made it clear that we
are not going to withdraw and we also made it clear to you that
last week in the Programming Committee, I raised this issue and


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 25
the Deputy Speaker said we should leave it to you. When I wrote
to you on Monday, you said it is a decision that can only be
taken by the Programming Committee. Therefore...
IsiXhosa:
... kucacile ukuba kudlalwa ngathi apha
English:
... because in the programming committee the Deputy Speaker said
the decision...
IsiXhosa:
... isezandleni zakho.
English:
When I speak to you, you say the decision is in the Programming
Committee. Therefore, what we move as the ATM is that the motion
be postponed pending the finalisation of the court processes.
Thank you very much.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, you have
made a ruling that the item was not sub judice in terms of the
rules. You made a ruling that if the proposer is not prepared to
table the motion then there is no motion before this House and


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 26
we agree with both rulings and those who disagree have remedies
themselves. They can take your decisions on review and propose
that we move forward. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon Speaker. Hon Speaker, I think
there’s a misinterpretation of sub judice. Let me start of by
saying, this matter was struck of the roll and if it’s struck of
the roll it’s no longer on the roll. That’s the simplest
interpretation. It’s no longer there. If you want to now bring
it back to the court roll you have to do that in a normal cause
of action.
So, it does not exist as a matter or an application currently.
Now based on that, it simply means that ATM is not willing to
move it today and I suggest that you proceed further if they are
not willing to do that.
There are two options for the ATM, to either drop it or
alternatively bring your motion once again when you are ready.
In consultation with you representatives, your legal
representatives and deal with the matter on whether it should be
an open or secret ballot simultaneously.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 27
Currently, there’s no matter before the court. So if there’s no
matter before the court, we can’t be postponing something based
on an outcome of something that doesn’t exist. Surely we should
understand that hon Speaker. Thank very much.
Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you Speaker. Speaker, this e-week has been
arranged mainly for this motion. So, I concur with the speakers
to say there’s nothing sub judice. Therefore, we don’t have any
motion tabled before the House. We must say there is no motion
up until the ATM is willing to bring the motion back. Thank you
Speaker.
Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you hon Speaker. We must address orders
and debates in this Parliament in line with the procedures of
Parliament and laws of course. Hon Speaker, we must look at this
matter in line with many precedence that were set before.
Therefore, what I wish to say is in line with what hon Singh is
saying. Let’s take this matter back to the committee that deals
with the arrangements and say to them, this is what is
happening. The matter of sub Judi care is here and move from
there. I think we need to do that. Thank you.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 28
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you hon Speaker. Hon Speaker, this is
a shocking development. Parliament rules and not the courts in
this instance. The motion is nothing but a political stunt and
an attempt to destabilise the House, Cabinet and the country and
you serve the right to vote this. You cannot expect Al Jama-ah
to support a motion in this case of the ATM or even the DA.
Al Jama-ah stands with legal services’ well thought out legal
advice. Al Jama-ah stands with the Speaker but not the legal
view of the party whom this motion is. We respect your ruling
hon Speaker and we must move on to the next motion. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you hon Henricks. Parties having made their
comments, I highly appreciate that thank you very much hon
members. I now rule that we are not proceeding on this matter
and the details of what we do next will be dealt with tomorrow
at the Programme Committee. I thank you.
MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN THE CABINET IN TERMS OF SECTION
102(1) OF THE CONSTITUTION
(DRAFT RESOLUTION (THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION)


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 29
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President
and hon members, today, from the DA speakers in this debate, you
will hear a compelling case for why we cannot afford to persist
with a single day more with this Cabinet, and why this House must,
for once, stand up and be counted.
You will hear of the litany of failures of individual Ministers,
as well as the collective failure of the Cabinet as a whole.
And you will then be asked to look beyond your party, recall
your oath of office, and to serve the people of South Africa by
voting in support of this motion.
Today is about restoring the most sacred and fundamental tenet
of any democracy: The principle of accountability.
In almost every speech by the President we are told that we are
entering a new era of accountability. Over the past four years
we must have entered this era at least a dozen times.
However, despite it being the bedrock of a functional democratic
society, this word - accountability - has become entirely
meaningless.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 30
It gets uttered and then is immediately forgotten, without
changing a single action or behaviour. The result is that no one
in this government actually ever fears consequences.
People have become safely ensconced in their positions - and so
protected by their party - that they are confident that no
failure or scandal will ever dislodge them.
Now, one of the oldest jokes around is that the letters “ANC”
stand for absolutely no consequences. And this would have been
funny had it not been so devastatingly true.
The results of this impunity can be seen everywhere.
When oil refineries, manufacturing plants like Barloworld
equipment and mines shut their doors and take their operations
to another country, it is not because there is something
inherently wrong with the people of South African, or the
quality of our commodities.
It is because our government - this Cabinet - has failed to make
South Africa a viable place in which to operate a business and
to employ people.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 31
They have failed to protect lives and property, they have failed
to supply electricity and basic services, and they have failed
to reform labour and regulatory legislation.
The result is that our extreme poverty, unemployment and
inequality are now global outliers.
And yet, we still persist with this: The largest, most
inefficient and most corrupt cabinets in the entire world.
Now, consider this for a second: Brazil has 23 Ministries, China
has 21 ministries, South Korea has 18 Ministries and Europe’s
largest economy has a Cabinet of just 16. However, here in South
Africa, we have 38 Ministries, each with a Deputy and in some
instances two. For what? And for what? For the sole purpose of
rewarding otherwise unemployable cadres with jobs. [Applause.]
Not one of these Ministers here would last a day in the private
sector, where results matter and accountability is still a
thing.
However, in the ANC’s sheltered employment scheme it is happy
days forever. Just one big merry-go-round of reshuffles, and
when you finally run out of carnival rides in this Cabinet, then


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 32
it is off on a nice cushy diplomatic post. Absolutely no
consequences.
Even when a string of reports, name your names and list your
shames, absolutely no consequences.
When the Zondo Commission directly implicates Minister like
Gwede Mantashe in corrupt activities, you would expect him to
step down or step aside or be suspended. But no here he is in
this ANC Cabinet. Absolutely no consequences.
When the report into the riots and the looting of last July
finds that the executive should shoulder some of the blame,
elsewhere heads would roll. However, in this ANC Cabinet,
Ministers are simply reshuffled or redeployed. Absolutely no
consequences.
[Interjections.]
Pay your tax, before you talk about weak this!
When targets in the President’s performance agreement for
Ministers are missed by a country mile, you would think there


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 33
would be “strong action”, as the President pledged when he
signed them, in 2019. However, not in this ANC Cabinet.
Three years after promising us regular evaluations, nothing has
happened. Absolutely no consequences.
The long-awaited lifestyle audits for Ministers? Nothing.
Action against those mentioned in the High-Level Panel Report
into the State Security Agency? Nothing.
Repercussions for being linked to Bosasa, Digital Vibes and
Gupta corruption? Nothing.
Absolutely no consequences for a single Cabinet Minister.
However, there are grave consequences for the tens of millions
of South Africans who live below the poverty line or survive on
a tiny social grant. The failures of this Cabinet, wreak havoc
in their lives and in the real world. A world that these
pampered Ministers know absolutely nothing about.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 34
In this real world - [Interjections.] sort it out it must have
missed 30%, like yours. In this real world, the cost of basic
food items far outstrips any increases in social grants.
In this real world, over 46% of working age South Africans
cannot find jobs.
And in this real world, thousands of South African children die
each year from severe acute malnutrition.
It is simply unforgivable that we have children literally
starving to death in South Africa, while Ministers are picking
out luxury vehicles for themselves.
The real world is very, very, far way away from the lavish
ministerial vehicle allowances, state-sponsored housing, petrol
and very important person, VIP, security detail.
However, because not one of these Ministers has ever been held
accountable, they just carry on wiping out jobs, destroying
lives, and then living it up on taxpayer money.
If our sole mission is to end poverty - and that has to be our
mission - we must start by firing the poverty Cabinet. For we


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 35
will not win the war with the same generals that got us into the
mess in the first place.
South Africa needs a fresh start, and that fresh starts today,
with a slimmed-down, fit-for-purpose Cabinet who are up to the
task.
It could be our clean slate. Now we know the President does not
have the power or the backbone to move against them. Our
Constitution and the rules of Parliament make provision for this
very eventuality by giving this House the power to do so. So,
all that is now required is for enough of members of this House
to choose to put their country ahead of their party.
As we head into this winter of discontent, this poverty Cabinet
is not going to cut it. So, support this motion and let us fire
this poverty Cabinet. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr W T LETSIE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 36
Mr W T LETSIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I wanted to ask hon
Steenhuisen if he wanted to take a question, but I raised my
hand and you did not answer.
The SPEAKER: Unfortunatley, we now proceed and I now recognise
the hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very
much, hon Speaker. His Excellency the President of the Republic
of South Africa, - I have a choice, - members of the executive,
MECs, hon member, I greet you all. I want to begin my address
with the following wise words, the words of the former United
Nations Secretary Kofi Anan, when he stated the following and I
quote:
I have been a tireless defender of democracy all my life
because I am convinced it is the political system most
conducive to peace, inclusive development, the rule of law
and the respect for human rights, the pillars of any
healthy society.
Madam Speaker, the architecture of South Africa democratic state
is founded on principles of equality, freedom and justice. This
hard won democracy was precisely designed to defend the rights


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 37
and freedoms of the previously oppressed who suffered great and
many losses at the hands of the oppressors.
Today, the struggle terrain has shifted. We, the defenders of
democracy and equality are facing relentless onslaughts from
those who now challenge the right of the President to choose his
own Cabinet. As an attempt to share the authority and
prerogative of the state President to choose his own Cabinet.
But the ANC has a long history of sustained and relentless
struggle. having reshaped and repositioned itself through well-
adjusted strategies and tactics to not only win every battle
that we have faced over the last more than 100-years of our
existence but to ultimately win the war against those who are
trying effectively challenging the legitimacy of a people’s
movement to govern, based on the vote and mandate of the people.
As we continue to deal with the underlying motives and trickery
of a defeated enemy, we contend with an enemy whose sole
intention is to attack the structures and systems of our
democracy. The intension is to advance a false narrative which
is constructed solely for purposes of weakening the credibility
of this illustrious movement.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 38
We must therefore emphasize, hon Speaker, that every effort that
the ANC-led government has undertaken since 1994 has been
centred around the far reaching impact of South Africa’s
colonial and apartheid past. Which is layered with deeply
ingrained structural poverty and inequality. However, our work
has been consistently and aggressively met by sustained attempts
to decelerate and discredit progress made.
It must therefore be asserted that the architects and proponents
of South Africa’s poverty and inequality are wagging a concerted
onslaught against our leaders in an effort to keep intact old
patterns of social, political and economic power. We are facing
resistance to transformation. We are facing resistance against
transformation and progress.
Albertyn and Goldblatt make a poignant assertion on the concept
of transformative constitutionality when they articulate that
and I quote:
Achieving transformation in South Africa will require a
complete reconstruction of a state and society
redistribution of power and resources along egalitarian
lines.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 39
The challenge of achieving equality within this transformation
project involves the eradication of systemic forms of domination
and material disadvantage based on race, gender, class and other
grounds of inequality.
I therefore wish to put to our nation at large as well as this
august House that these are the attempts of a defeated foe who
are painting a narrative that is crafted for purposes of
defending the ill-gains of South Africa’s colonial and apartheid
past. This terrain of struggle hence requires a conscious
populace which recognises that the agents and proponents of
South Africa’s oppressive past are effectively making an open
application to co-govern when they have not won an election to
govern this country.
We have witnessed ourselves where they governed, they continue
to provide apartheid based services where white privilege
supremacy supersedes equality and transformation. For example,
Khayelitsha, Gugulethu, Philipi, you name them. These are people
who want to co-govern when they didn’t win the national
elections. These are the same people who want to co-govern in
order to continue to propagate apartheid inspired systemic and
governance interventions under our democratic socio-political


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 40
order. This is in context of what we are dealing with here
today.
We are still finding ourselves transitioning from an oppressive
past as we strive to create an equal society, that is free of
systemic oppression and the cyclical nature of poverty and
equality. This transition has been fluid and has been threatened
by various challenges along the way. To this end, the state
President has proceeded to institute a commission of inquiry
precisely for the purposes of testing allegations made against
our governing dispensation.
The commission of inquiry attempted to answer a number of
critical questions to take the country forward. This process was
underpinned by a structured legal process, where the
administration of justice through our courts and the rule of law
is recognised as an underpinning pillar which must be allowed to
run its course.
Hon Speaker, it cannot be us hon member in this House who run a
false narrative and who mislead the people of South Africa.
Siswati:


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 41
Angeke kwenteke kutsi singabatjeli bantfu emaciniso ngoba sifuna
kutsi basivotele siwine lukhetfo ngemnyaka wa 2024. Awukho 2024,
asingabayengi bantfu baseNingizimu Afrika. Lokwentekako kutsi
uMbiko weLikomishana laZondo wente Tincomo letitsi, labo
lekufanele baphenye abaphenye. Uma sebacedze kuphenya futsi
sekunebufakazi, babese bayaboshwa, bavele enkantolo bese babekwa
emacala ngalokusemtsetfweni, bashushiswe, ngemuva kwaloko
sebayagwetjwa. Nguloko lokufanele kwenteke.
Kodvwa lapha kuleNdlu namuhla kutsiwa asingakubuki loko.
Ngetinsolo nje letentiwa ngunoma ngabe ngubani ... [Akuvakali.]
... bantfu kutawumele bacoshwe emsebentini baphindze baboshwe.
Umtsetfo Sisekelo ukubeka kucace kutsi wonkhe umuntfu umsulwa
kudzimate inkantolo imbeke licala. Ngangoke, nguloko lokufanele
kwenteke kantsi futsi nguloku lokufanele singeMalunga
lahloniphekile ePhalamende sikufundzise sive ngaloku.
Sibafundzise kutsi umuntfu akagwetjwa kungena bufakazi. Kungako
lamanye emacala abese ayacitfwa enkantolo ngenca yokubabete
bufakazi. Nine bekunene asingayenti lentfo yokutsi sibe
mapopulist (ngulabafuna ludvumo.)
English:
We must therefore be reminded, hon Speaker, that during the
apartheid regime our people were jailed for ideas and the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 42
freedom of speech was severely stifled. Many were detained
without fair and just legal processes when the apartheid system
collapsed and those unjust practices collapsed with it.
This hard won democracy demands as enshrined in the Constitution
of the Republic of South Africa and I quote:
That the innocence of the accused must prevail until they
have been proven guilty in a court of law.
Therefore, the question of corruption ... [Interjections.] ...
Siswati:
... Thulani!
The SPEAKER: Hon Dlakude, there is a point which is being
raised, please hold on. Hon Papo is raising a matter of a mask,
who is not wearing a mask here? Okay, hon Maotwe please... Hon
Gungubele, and hon Mantashe, we can hear your entire
conversation here. Hon Zulu, please! Hon Gungubele you know what
I mean so, will you please stop the conversation or seat next to
him and then you have your chat. Thank you very much, hon
members. Proceed hon Dlakude.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 43
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... Thank you, hon
Speaker. Therefore, the question of corruption is a matter of
criminality which requires the law enforcement agencies to act
on corruption allegations to test their veracity and to prove
through the justice system that acts of criminality have indeed
taken place. Where matters are under investigation, such matters
must be allowed to run their legal course and not to be prompted
by motions of no confidence before a legal process has been
completed. Statements of dereliction of duty have to be
substantiated with evidence and thus far, no material evidence
has been attached to support such claims.
Members of the executive have signed performance agreements with
the President and this have been made public so that the public
can assess performance. The agreements have nothing to do with
so called interests or loyalties of anyone who is in the
governing party. Performance of any individual member of Cabinet
cannot be measured subjectively by a particular party. Which is
what the sponsors of the motion are trying to do. Without the
indicators of performance being put to an objective test
measured against what has been produced. The sponsors of this
motion themselves under debate continue to benefit from the
crimes of humanity that were perpetrated by their forefather,
who tortured ... [Inaudible.] ... syphoned state and economic


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 44
resources at the expense of our people. The impact of these
crimes against humanity were committed during colonial and
apartheid period and have created major structural challenges
for our democratic social order which must now be constructed
layer by layer and the systemic conditions created decades of
systemic oppression.
Hon Speaker, oversight and accountability are matters that are
key to an effective and efficient political administration.
Department and state entities as led by members of the executive
who table strategic plans and annual performance plans and
quarterly reports which are adopted by portfolio committees and
scrutinised by those committees. This should be bases from which
the performance of the members of the executive are assessed and
evaluated. There is no portfolio committee which has proposed a
motion of no confidence of any of the members of the executive.
Indeed, the most decisive factor for development is good
governance and our democracy provides the necessary checks and
balances. Independent institutions, accountability and
transparency are required to achieve good governance. The
Cabinet has and is committed to clean governance and have
provided both material and political support to their
departments.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 45
Despite the fact that the business of Parliament has continued
along various other independent institutions supporting
democracy and good governance, we have witnessed a sustained
manner of destructive criticism coming from the sponsors of the
motion for today’s debate. This aggressive onslaught of
criticism is not founded on the objective to build this country.
At its best, it is aimed at opposing every effort to rebuild and
transform our society.
Hon Speaker, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow states the following
about the nature of impact of criticism and I quote:
A spirit of criticism if indulge in, leads to a
censoriousness of disposition that is destructive of all
noble feeling. The man who lives to find faults has a
miserable mission.
The detractors’ mentality is not willing to find solutions nor
are willing to objectively assess facts and evidence before
them. Their course is founded purely on the objective to
deaccelerate progress and to discredit all forms of progress
made.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 46
In social reconstruction, as stated in his legal economic nexus
W J Samuels says and I quote:
The fundamental policy question always is whose interest
are to count. And it contains inevitable distributional or
structural problems. Even if one were to affirm that
individual preferences count the fundamental policy
question remains. Whose interest of preferences are to
count. The legal economic nexus is the complex social
process through which answers to these questions are
reworked and in which thereby the social reconstruction of
reality is affected.
Hon Speaker, Samuel positions the concept of reconstruction
within the economic nexus. The ANC rejects this DA motion of no
confidence to the executive with the contempt it deserves. I
thank you.
Mr I S SEITLHOLO: What about the corruption of Ministers?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Papo, it will go on
straight after I’m done. Parliament, the good, the bad and the
ugly. I have had the honour of serving in this House since the
year 2009. The irony is not lost on me that I stand here today


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 47
to see so many of the people who have been found guilty beyond
reasonable doubt by Judge Zondo of being unfit to hold office
and who should face criminal charges. This is what is wrong with
Parliament but also with South Africa as a whole.
On the rare occasion that Parliament found its teeth and managed
to organise an inquiry into state capture of Eskom, we did our
job and we uncovered corruption, the scale of which we could
never have imagined.
And what did the ANC do? Let me tell you. Instead of rewarding
Ms Daphne Rantho for sterling leadership, bravery and
patriotism, have a look around and notice that she was done away
with. I am here to say what many South Africans want to say and
what they want to have done. I am here to say that our Cabinet
is made up of criminals, and people who are completely unfit to
govern and should not be in charge of our country.
[Interjections.]
Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order: I’m rising on Rule 84. The
members of Cabinet are Members of Parliament, so they cannot be
declared as criminals.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 48
The SPEAKER: Thank you. Is that a point of order, hon Pandor?
Hon member, please.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Point
of order, Speaker. There is certainly a motion for debate that
is on the Order Paper and we are currently debating it. There is
no motion saying that I am a criminal. And, I am a member of the
Cabinet. Should that accusation be made, I would want that
substantive evidence be provided. This statement must be
withdrawn, at least with respect to myself. Also, as Members of
Parliament, we cannot in anyway and by any means, impugn judges
of the honourable courts of this country. Judge Zondo headed a
commission. He didn’t find anybody guilty. Thank you, hon
Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Pandor. Hon Mazzone, will you
withdraw the last part of your statement please?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I withdraw. Thank you very
much. People are getting poorer and poorer by the day.
Unemployment figures rise daily. More and more people are
subjected to violence and unspeakable crimes. South Africans
have had more than they can take. This is a bad government


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 49
governed by bad people, who coincidentally make very bad
statements about Russia and the Ukraine.
Parliament went up in smoke and ... the Official Opposition does
nothing drastic like we do today, the whole country will go up
in smoke. Protest actions are happening daily but Ministers are
protected at the cost of millions and millions of rand, and that
includes you, hon Pandor, for security. Yet, I have no
protection and neither does any other South African. That money
should be used to build homes, schools and toilets but you
choose to have yourselves looked after, like you always have.
I am not afraid to say it as it is to every single one of the
members of Cabinet here. I think that you are an absolute
disgrace! I think that you should be stripped of your posts and
I think that you should be replaced by people who can do the
job. We are run like a mafia syndicate, and not I nor a single
member of the DA will allow this to carry on.
Hon Pandor, you know what the problem is? The jig is up. Judge
Zondo himself said, after he spoke with Thandi Modise:
One of the defining features that has emerged in the evidence
before the commission is that in order to divert public funds


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 50
for private benefit, it was necessary to populate key
institutions with people ...
Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a point of order.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mazzone, there is a point of order. Hon Radebe?
Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, hon Speaker. The speaker at the podium
is addressing Minister Pandor instead of addressing you as the
Chairperson of the session. [Interjections.] Yes. You must be
addressed. She cannot address ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can someone protect me? That
was a waste of time ... [Inaudible.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Secondly Speaker, she just called the Minister of
Defence by name. She is not allowed to do that. Thank you.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 51
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Radebe. Hon Mazzone, you
may proceed.
An HON MEMBER: He’s wasting time, Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Let me say again what Judge
Zondo said:
One of the defining features that has emerged in the evidence
before the commission is that in order to divert public funds
for private benefit, it was necessary to populate key
institutions with people who were going to comply with
orders.
Shame, shame, shame on you!
Our buildings may be destroyed but we are stronger in our
resolve than ever before. South Africa must always come first.
We will stop at nothing to protect this Constitution and restore
South Africa to the shining beacon that we were promised in
1994.
The Cabinet must go and it must go now. The Constitution will be
protected and we will use it as our sword and our shield. Today


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 52
we vote for the future of our country, and long may our freedom
and prosperity last. Shame be on the Cabinet! [Applause.]
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mazzone, may I address you? Hon Mazzone, may I
address you? Hon Thandi Modise is the Minister of Defence and
Military Veterans. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m sorry. She was the Speaker
when she ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Thank you. You may leave. Hon N V Mente?
Ms A STEYN: Excuse me, Speaker. Speaker, over here. We all know
that we are allowed to heckle but I feel that Minister Zulu is
just going a bit overboard. Can we deal with her please? Our
Minister, please. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order hon members, order! What is the point of
raising a point of order if you are going to be heckling? What’s
the point? What is the point? [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon
members! Order! Order, hon Minister! Hon members, order! If you
raise a point of order and you have a problem with the manner in
which another hon member is conducting himself or herself, I do


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 53
not need a crowd to clap and make the kind of noise and heckling
which you have just done. I am listening and attending to what
the hon member is raising. That is what I want to raise here
with you. Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Zulu, hold on
please. Thank you. Proceed, hon Mente.
Ms N V MENTE: Thank you very much, Speaker. We must start by
clarifying this and making it very clear to South Africans that
the DA motion should not by any means possible try to portray Mr
Ramaphosa as a person different to his own Cabinet. He does not
serve our people. Equally in the same way the Cabinet is not
serving our people. They even exchange notes for his state of
the nation address just to show that he can be saved because he
is their golden boy.
Since 1994, the administration of the ANC has failed the
majority of the citizens of this country. The current crop of
Cabinet members provides practical meaning to the term, scraping
at the bottom of the barrel.
Take the Minister of Police and all the developments that just
took place in his office, with the commissioner of police having
to be removed because of pettiness and ... wanting to have the
administration doing things he wants ... his own way. The vans


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 54
in each and every police station are stationary because they
just don’t have tyres. Today, walking in the townships of this
country is a nightmare for all law-abiding citizens,
particularly women and children. Just between October and
December 2021, over 11 000 cases of rape were reported at police
stations in this country. What is the success of those cases?
Zero per cent. Over 6 000 people were murdered. Despite this,
there has been no proportionate number of arrests because the
capacity of the SA Police Service to do anything has been
dramatically eroded.
Take Minister Fikile Mbalula. Under his leadership, we have seen
our rail transport network decimated beyond recognition. Traffic
departments across the country are unable to process driving
licence renewals. Gauteng is still unable to resolve its e-toll
nightmare. Roads across the country are littered with potholes.
The country’s roads are still deathtraps for thousands every
single year and taxi violence has become normal in this country.
He is not alone though. We have got Mr Jamnadas. With his golden
boy at Eskom, they have destroyed it beyond its initial stage of
being an Eskom which provides energy to our people. It has
become a joke ... which we are unable to get to its former stage
of being Eskom. Mr Gordhan has singlehandedly destroyed the SA


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 55
Airways and even sold it to people that are not known, not even
to Treasury. Treasury to date does not know who the partner, who
is busy buying Eskom shares, is. Denel has been stripped to the
bone under the nose of Mr Jamnadas and ... his encouragement and
motivation, to make sure that this country’s state-owned
entities, SOEs, go down the drain.
One of the worst experiences for any citizen of this country is
a visit to Home Affairs, where our people are confronted with
the most despicable forms of incompetence. The queues, the lack
of care, the time it takes to process applications should make
anyone very ashamed but not Minister Motsoaledi, who has
appointed himself as a crusader for anti-African sentiment in
this country and who is busy saying that people must stay
outside the borders of this country.
The same goes for public health care facilities where women are
still giving birth on the floors, where people queue for a
Panado and have to return home.
We say this very same thing to the Minister of Women, where
women who have been brutalised by the system of the ANC and had
their wombs removed have to date never found justice. Today we


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 56
see the gender commission collapsing under the Minister of
Women.
Others are here chest-beating about being freedom fighters, yet
children miss schooling because they don’t have a lousy sanitary
pad.
Speaker, women still go to the police because there is no
innovation, there is no imagination, there is no interest in the
Cabinet. Women will go to the police station. They have to find
their own way to the shelter. They must still find their own way
to go and get a court interdict, until they realise that that
monster I’m trying to run away from is better than this system
and the way it’s treating me. Let me go back home. And then
tomorrow when that woman is killed by that monster, the Minister
of Social Development, the Minister of Women, the Minister of
Police, the Minister of Justice are all going to queue to take
to the platform and say ... against gender-based violence, GBV,
which their system does not fight in anyway possible.
Today we stand here ... Ramaphosa and his Cabinet ... everyone,
haak Vrystaat!
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, it is with deep ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 57
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, it is with deep distress that I stand
upon this podium to debate the motion currently before the
National Assembly. It begs what has become a perennial question:
How did we get to this point? Failed statehood stares us
squarely in the eyes. This government has become a political
antagonist towards the very nation it swore an oath to protect,
for both current and future generations.
Last year, we bore witness to the worst domestic violence since
the end of apartheid. It was a perfect storm of insurrection,
conspiracy and socioeconomic distress. This was in no small part
fuelled, not only by the ever-widening chasm of poverty,
inequality and unemployment, to which this government seemingly
has no answer, but also by the spillover effect of the ruling
party’s internal factional battles.
Through five successive Presidents, some appointed Cabinet
Ministers have blundered through their respective portfolios.
Notwithstanding that there have been successes, these are far
outweighed by the litany of ever-compounding failures, the dire
effects of which will be felt for decades to come in Africa’s
most industrialised country.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 58
The current President, of which there can be no doubt is a fit
and proper person to hold such high office, appears hamstrung by
the factions within his own ruling party. And it falls squarely
upon his shoulders to take the necessary steps, to steer this
country back onto course. Former President Harry Truman of the
United States had a sign on his desk which stated, and I quote:
“The buck stops here.” This means that the President not only
makes the decisions but also accepts ultimate responsibility for
those decisions.
Appointing Cabinet members who have no previous professional
experience in portfolios can only be a recipe for disaster.
Cabinet reshuffles adversely impact and erode institutional
memory, and negatively affect planning. Budget cycles are
interrupted with the net result being that the country does not
move forward.
If one looks at the inquiry into state capture and notes the
many current and ex-Cabinet Ministers implicated for wrongdoing,
alleged wrongdoing, and even more disparagingly, the fact that
some of these individuals have publicly indicated that they will
take sections of the report on review, my question is: What
happens in the interim? These individuals rely upon the innocent
until proven guilty legal principle and get to keep their jobs


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 59
and salaries until they are found guilty by a court of law, most
likely only after a lengthy court process, including an appeal,
which could take years, decades, I might add.
Cabinet serves at the pleasure of the President. Its failure or
success is the failure or success of the President. And through
you, hon Speaker, Mr President, the buck has stopped. The
responsibility falls upon you. If certain members of your
current Cabinet are failing in the execution of their duties,
replace them. South Africa first, political party second!
Hon President, we will not support this motion today because we
are going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are the
leader. Take the necessary action to ensure that the people of
this country benefit from your leadership and put in place
Cabinet members that would do justice to their respective
portfolios. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, this is a very important debate and
it does not only deal with the Cabinet; it basically deals with
the ANC, as the government of South Africa. [Interjections.]
Yes, it does. Yes, it does and you are a part of it. I was
fortunate to be here in the 1994 when the ANC came to power and
who knows, I might still be here soon when the ANC loses power.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 60
The ANC reminds me of a pirate ship. A pirate ship should be
small, easy to careen and repair, but with a lot of working
space, a large living quarters for the usually large crowded
crew and big storage for plundered goods. That is what a pirate
ship normally looks like. The problem with the current Cabinet
is that it merely is an extension of the Nasrec division that
was formalised in 2017.
You would remember, at that conference, the top six was not
compromised – three on the one side and three on the other side.
That is exactly what also happens in Cabinet. Cabinet has to be
a balance to accommodate all the different factions within the
ruling party – the SACP, Cosatu, the Women’s League, the
military veterans, the Youth League, the radical economic
transformation, RET, faction. That is the balance that needs to
be struck within Cabinet. The problem is that the best of the
best is not necessarily appointed, but the balance needs to be
there for the ANC to be remain afloat.
Today, when we vote, it will be obvious that some of the members
or all of the members of the Cabinet will have a conflict of
interest. They are members of the executive that are going to
vote on their own competence or incompetence. I think that is a
problem.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 61
If you look at the practical reality of what is happening in
South Africa and if you listen to the ANC, and I listened to the
hon Thlakude, it seems that all is well and wonderful in South
Africa, but everyone that looks at the reality of this country,
knows that exactly the opposite is true - your failure with
regard to economic growth and job creation.
The hon Zulu is always very vocal, but what did she do in terms
of small business development in South Africa? That is where she
has failed and that is why South Africa is in the economic
crisis, to the detriment of all the people. Look at the collapse
of infrastructure, crime, transport. The rail roads are being
carried away and the stations are being destroyed, but our
Minister of Transport is a very happy young man, thinking that
everything is well. I am not even talking about many of the
other things.
Hon Dlakude said that the ANC won each and every battle. No, you
did not. You have lost the battle that really counted. That
battle was the battle for the trust of the people of South
Africa. You have lost that battle. [Interjections.] You have
lost that battle.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 62
The elections that come will prove that you have lost that
battle. You know and you are very much aware of what the current
opinion polls are saying about the ANC support. You know, but we
know as well.
You have lost the trust of the people of South Africa. What is
the problem with the ANC? The problem with the ANC is that, for
the ANC, it is all about staying in power. [Interjections.] That
is all! That is all! You have all sworn an oath to uphold the
Constitution and to act in the best interest of the people. That
is not what has happened. The ANC is clinging to power and you
will do everything possible to retain that power.
Surely, we cannot draw a distinction between the ANC and the
ANC’s leadership and the Cabinet. The members of the Cabinet are
surely the leadership of the ANC. The President unfortunately
has a huge problem, because he cannot appoint anybody else. If
you look at the rest, there is nothing else to appoint. He has
to use what he has got. Maybe, unfortunately for the ANC, your
time to go has come.
Mr W M THRING: Hon Speaker, on 26 March 2020, a 21 day lock down
was imposed on South Africans, with the intention of helping to
adequately prepare our health care facilities and to flatten the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 63
curve.
It is a belief of the ACDP that during the last two years, our
Constitution, the principles and values it upholds, was
violated. Cabinet Ministers were given far reaching powers,
passing Government Gazettes and usurping the freedoms of South
Africans. Simultaneously, the legislative arm of Parliament was
by passed, as Gazettes were introduced, without debate, consent
and interrogation by Members of Parliament. Worryingly, Members
of Parliament, MPs were unable to execute their constitutional
mandate to hold the executive to account, and Cabinet stood by.
A Private Members Bill was tabled by a member of this House to
correct this anomaly, but was shot down by the ruling party, and
again, Cabinet stood by.
Cabinet appears to be power drunk, after two years of the
National State of Disaster, there are attempts to continue with
draconian and authoritarian legislation, only this time through
the Departments of Cooparative Government and Traditional
Affairs, CoGTA, Employment and Labour and Health draft
regulations.
For two years we have heard Cabinet members say, “our decisions
are informed by science”, but when renowned scientists like Dr


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 64
Pierre Cory, Dr Robert Malone, one of the pioneers of messenger
ribonucleic acid, MRNA technology, Dr Peter McCullough, Dr
Vladimir Zelensko, a doctor to Presidents, raised their concerns
about the COVID-19 narrative, these scientists are threatened,
de platformed and discredited.
Locally, over 70 South African doctors have written to the
Department of Health and South African Health Products
Regulatory Authority, SAPHRA, raising their concerns about the
handling of COVID-19 and have only received a cold shoulder.
More recently, your own scientists, like Prof Shabir Madhi,
Glenda Gray amongst others, called the new draft regulations:
An ill-conceived and misdirected attempt to prevent severe
acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, SARS-COV2
infections.
As there has been an evolution of widespread population immunity
against severe COVID-19 and death in South Africa.
The recent announcements made by the President on COVID-19, the
new draft regulations, are not in short of mandates by stealth,
which are awakening the church, the sleeping giant of South
Africa, other religious groups, as well as the vaccinated and
unvaccinated, who understand that our freedoms and democracy is


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 65
under threat. To quote from Hans Christian Anderson, “The
Emperor is naked” and this Cabinet is using fig leaves to cover
up. Cabinet members who know the truth but who choose to remain
silent are just as culpable.
The ACDP will speak up against every violation of our
constitutional rights against every violation of the Nuremburg
code, and every scientific inconsistency, wherever it is found.
We support this motion of no confidence. I thank you. [Time
expired.]
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The Chief Whip
of the Majority Party has just said that she will vaccinate the
hon Thring by force. I think that is objectionable and I will
ask you to consider that and make a ruling at an appropriate
occasion. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon Thring.
Mr W M THRING: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I would like
to know whether the threat by Chief Whip is actually an
indication of what is going to be done to the rest of the
population of South Africa?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 66
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I request hon Chief Whip will you
please withdraw that statement, please. Please withdraw that hon
member. Thank you very much.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, Team Thring,
I withdraw. I don’t have any needle to vaccinate you. I will
never vaccinate you, let alone by force no ... [Interjection.]
... just go and vaccinate. [Interjection.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon Gen Holomisa.
An HON MEMBER: Baptised you by force.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, he is having connectivity issues, let
me speak to him now. Can you move to the next speaker?
The SPEAKER: Ok, thank you very much hon Kwankwa, order. Hon T L
Marawu.
Ms T L MARAWU: Thank you very much hon Speaker ...
[Interjection.] ... the first point to make ... [Interjection.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Marawu, wait, sorry hon Marawu. Allow me to ...
hon Holomisa.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 67
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker and hon members, it does not
matter who the Cabinet Members or Presidents are, if they come
from the ANC we are doomed as a nation. Institutionalised
corruption makes a laughing stock of our constitutional
principles and it is tantamount to human rights abuse.
The evidence from the Zondo Commission shows that the ANC has
stolen state resources which should have been utilised for the
socioeconomic development of the South Africa and her people.
Even the President has confirmed that the ANC ... [Inaudible.]
... and that the party abused government funds. The President’s
view is confirmed by the Zondo Commission that the comrades in
corruption raked in millions, even state intelligence funds were
raided. We are however waiting for the commission to tell us how
will ANC refund the stolen funds.
The July mayhem of last year in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng
Province that costs billions in damages and the death of 354
people is however, most worrying of all. This was an ultimate
price to be paid for the ANC’s infighting. In fact, Prof Cindy
Africa’s team identified an unequivocal failure of the country’s
police and intelligence services as one of the root causes but


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 68
categorically stated that Cabinet must take overall
responsibility.
The union has consulted our legal advisors to establish the
visibility of bringing a class action lawsuit against the
ANC-led government on behalf of the victims of the July mayhem
and their families.
The country’s security has however become another epidemic that
we must be concerned about. Here, I include lawlessness,
hijackings, porous borders and vandalism of state resources.
Worst of all, is when some of our security forces are caught
colluding with criminals.
In the same vein, Madam Speaker, solders, teachers, police,
civil servants’ salaries have not been increased in the last
three years.
IsiXhosa:
Sithi, mawubuye uMzantsi Afrika wethu emaseleni, mawubuye!
English:
We support the motion. Thank you. [Time expired.]


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 69
Ms T L MARAWU: Thank you very much, hon Speaker and members of
the House, the first point to make is that the fish rots from
the head. It is an irrational and political virtuoso process to
be arguing a rotten body and saying nothing about its acts. How
can that be? Indeed, the Cabinet of Mr Ramaphosa has failed to
hold him accountable. He has been allowed to operate like a
tinpot despot.
CONNECTION PROBLEMS
The SPEAKER: Okay, hon Marawu. Hon Marawu, I am sorry.
Ms T L MARAWU: Can I continue, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Switch off your camera so that your system can be
stable. You may proceed, hon Marawu.
Ms T L MARAWU: Thank you very much, Speaker. We are sitting with
a directionless Cabinet whose performance agreements were signed
in a middle of the term. Meaning for the first two years, we had
a Cabinet that is rudderless. It is unfortunate that even now
that this Cabinet has allowed itself to be misguided, how can on
the one hand have a Minister of Health giving the public 30 days
to comment on sterile and outdated regulation to manage SARS


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 70
COVID-2, and then midstream as this very morning have a Minister
of Cogta announcing regulations on the same SARS COVID-2 that is
contained as a notifiable disease in the proposed health
regulation. What kind of conclusion is that? It is very clear
there is no centre, not even the case of the centre is holding
the seat as good as vacant. The Cabinet has allowed President
Ramaphosa to destroy the economy and livelihoods of many. Forty-
two per cent of African women are unemployed, youth age 15-24
and 25-34 years old, recorded the highest unemployment rate of
6,5%, and 43% respectively.
Ramaphosa government is destroying the future of our children. A
country with expanded rate of unemployment of 46,2% is a country
rotten at a very top. This Cabinet allowed Mr Ramaphosa to make
misguided statement, making false claims that to absorb the
government from its responsibility to create jobs. The country
is in free fall under the misleadership of Mr Ramaphosa, this
Cabinet approves spiralling debts commitments. How can 75%
current debts with GDP in 2024 considered a stable position? Mr
Ramaphosa in his cabinet have a loss sense of reality. They must
all go. Under this weak Cabinet and weak Presidency, the current
debts service cost in the medium–term is expected to be more
that R3 billion a year. What a disaster. Yet, this Cabinet
allows Mr Ramaphosa to be going around the world raking in more


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 71
debts. At R300 billion our debts service costs are more than any
other line item in the budget of our country – more than
Education, Defence, Social Security and Police etc. Yet, Mr
Ramaphosa is going around the world with a cap in the hand
instead of fixing the economy. We are saying in any events the
task team the entire Cabinet must go. [Time expired.] Thank you.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Speaker, the hon member who has just spoken is misleading the
House. I have travelled with hon Ramaphosa he’s never had a cap
in his hand. I thank you.
Mr B N HERRON: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition and
hon Mazzone are really upset about fancy cars and security but
there have seemed to have forgotten just around the corner at 7
Wales Street they have 10 DA members of Cabinet who all have
fancy cars, security, and bodyguards, but beyond just that they
should check the Western Cape Provincial Executive Handbook, it
is more permissive than National Assembly Cabinet Handbook.
[Applause’] Your Cabinet Ministers have more permissions and
more luxuries than the National Cabinet does. So your hypocrisy
is quite astounding. Ten of them can stand as much as they like.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 72
Speaker, political parties the world over that win the elections
apply a very complicated set of formula to set up the government
they lead. The proposal of this motion is no exception,
competence and loyalty are a key factor. But there are other
factors that play such as geographic, cultural, racial, age and
gender inclusivity. Of course, we should demand that Members of
Executive are people of integrity, but integrity is difficult to
gauge in a country played by so many allegations that are seldom
proven in court. The point is, that is rare that the members of
governing executives are universally perceived as an
unimpeachable character and with exceptional gifts. It’s a
fantasy that Cabinet can be formed on a basis that the nation’s
best doctor becomes a Minister of Health and the most qualified
economist becomes the Minister of Finance. Why is Usain Bolts
not a Minister of Sports in Jamaica? What made Albert Fritz, who
ran a sex for job scheme for 12 years fit for purpose to serve?
You fired him after 12 years fit for purpose to serve as a
Cabinet Minister when you have known for 12 years what was going
on. [Interjections.] The real issue, Madam Speaker, standing
between us and integrity isn’t the right of this President to
appoint an executive. It is the extent to which the criminal
justice system has acted to rid the country of elected
leadership who have committed corruption.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 73
The SPEAKER: Order members! Hon Steenhuisen!
Mr B N HERRON: Madam Speaker, may I speak. It seems that the
Leader of the Opposition is very upset.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Herron.
Mr B N HERRON: May I continue, hon Speaker?
Mr Q R DYANTYI: There’s an order, sir.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please! Yes, hon Dyantyi, you have the
floor.
Mr Q R DYANTYI. Thank you, hon Speaker, it is allowed to heckle
and interject, but the hon Leader of the Opposition is drowning
the speaker. He is having a running commentary while the speaker
is on the podium and it’s not done he knows it.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Richard. Hon member, hon
Chief Whip of the Majority party together with the Leader of the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 74
Opposition, you are both drowning hon Herron, please. Hon
Herron, you may proceed.
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition
really doesn’t like to hear that his own executive members are
enjoying exactly the same luxuries and exactly the same services
that the national Cabinet is and including your mayoral
committee members in Tshwane are driving in luxury vehicles. So,
really take the log out of your own eye. The failures to
prosecute are directly contributed to the crisis of impunity
that bedevils all levels and sectors of society. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker. What we learn here
today is that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw
stones. Now hon Speaker, it will be disingenuous of me to stand
here today and support a vote of no confidence in the entire
Cabinet. Now, let me start off by saying I would agree that not
every department is performing optimally in the way we want it
to. We must agree on that.
We must agree that there are lots of weaknesses. There are lots
of problems in the country. Yes, we must agree. [Interjection.]


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 75
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please allow the member to speak.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: But those weaknesses and problems exist all
over South Africa. Whichever political parties wherever you are
govern, those weaknesses and those problems and those looting
and corruption are rife. Let’s admit that. If we have the
interest of the people at heart in this country, we should not
be coming here and attacking each other. But rather embracing
each other to find common ground and find solutions for the
better of our South African 59 million people in this country.
And that is what we should be doing. And yes indeed, some of us
do things better than maybe how others do. What are we supposed
to do? We should be learning from each other.
Our mandate here is to represent 59 million people and create a
better quality of life for them. Now there are some of us that
are attacking each other here. How many political parties or
leaders in this House can stand up and convince us that they
have not benefited through some unlawful or corrupt means to
sustain themselves?
Let me go on to the issue of Venda Building Society, VBS, Bank.
You know what has happened there. This is one of the ideal
example, the VBS Bank. And I want to tell you, if you see what


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 76
is happening, hon Speaker, at local government level political
parties are at each other’s throats wanting to overthrow each
other to take control, not to deliver services to the people but
to take control of the resources. That’s where the problem is.
So, what we should be doing is, we should come together and we
said this time and time again. The one thing we don’t do in this
country and we are not prepared to do, is to come together and
find solutions because as opposition we thrive on the weaknesses
of those that are in control. All over, you have heard someone
condemning the DA a short while ago. Why? Because it is the
opposition. You don’t want solutions. So, you thrive on the
weaknesses or the faults rather than saying lets us work
together, this is a beautiful country, which belongs to all of
us who live in it.
So, I want to say I think I have just pass my time. Now is the
time, hon Speaker, to put our differences aside and work
together for the good of this country.
Hon Steenhuisen, if you came to me and said support this motion
on certain Ministers, we may have considered that. But it will
be disingenuous to say remove all the Ministers. Some of them


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 77
are performing exceptionally well. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Ms S GWARUBE: Speaker, when history books are being written,
they will tell a story of a liberation struggle movement that
valiantly fought for the freedom of this country.
And perhaps more devastatingly – they will tell the story of the
same party which in turn oppressed its own people through
joblessness; unrelenting poverty and how they ruthlessly looted
public money.
IsiXhosa:
Imbali iza kubhalwa ngombutho we-ANC ongazange ubakhathalele
abantu, nkqu ngexesha likabhubhane leCovid-19. Iza kubalisa
ngabaPhathiswa abalwela inkululeko baphinda batyisana ngemali
yabantu. Abantu baya kuncokola ngombutho wooTambo nooSisulu
owaphela isidima neentloni. Baya kukhumbula nge-ANC
eyayigqwesile kwihlabathi jikelele nasekuhlanguleni abantu
ababephethwe ngurhulumente wengcinezelo eMzantsi Afrika. Kodwa
abantu baya kuyikhumbula ngakumbi into yokuba ikwa nguloo mbutho
owazisa intsokolo nentswela-ngqesho apha eMzantsi Afrika.
English:


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 78
That members is the fate of this organisation that once
commanded the respect of the world. It is now littered with
criminals, crooks and the most unsavoury of characters. It has
long forgotten the people who elected it to govern and only
cares about lining the pockets of the political elite.
However, today presents a unique opportunity not only for
members of the opposition who share our view about this Cabinet,
but for members of the ANC who no longer want to be lampooned
with the rotten apples of this bag.
I know there are some of you who want to tell a different story.
A story of courage in the face of intimidation. I know some of
you want to tell a story and want to stand up and be counted on
the right side of history. Where you voted to rid this country
of the albatross that is its Cabinet.
You can proudly tell your grandchildren that you voted in favour
of the future of our country over your own party political
interests.
You have an opportunity now to tell them that you abandoned your
own perks of office and financial interests and chose the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 79
12 million South Africans who are without jobs today because of
you.
Many of you here have made wrong choices before. You brought
this country a President and then claimed that it was the nine
wasted years.
To the millions of South Africans out there who are without work
for them that was a painful decade that was not nine wasted
years.
You now have a choice to make right your wrong. You have a
choice to vote for jobs, to vote for safer communities, quality
education and a health system.
The drafters of this Constitution created a provision for this
House to express a vote of no confidence in its Cabinet. They
did so for moments exactly like this.
A situation where members of the executive have neither the
ability or the desire to represent the people who elected them.
We know who they are.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 80
We know who played the leading roles in state capture - and who
stole money during Covid-19 and who failed to protect citizens
during the July riots. These are irredeemable people whose
presence in our executive can no longer be justified.
And so members, my plea to you today is very simple, is that you
vote for capable Ministers, who will work hard to pull South
Africans out of poverty; who will be unapologetic about choosing
policies that will grow our economy and create jobs; and
Ministers who will care enough, simply care enough about the
future of this country.
I ask that you put your personal and political interests aside.
And that you choose the people over the ANC.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, your time is
up.
Ms S GWARUBE: Speaker, I ask that you use your conscience to
finally mark your place in history as the MP who did the right
thing over political expedience. [Applause.] [Time expired.].
Mr S M JAFTA: Hon Speaker, it is very much unfortunate that the
DA, the sponsors of this motion is the one that is busy firing


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 81
the black professional and replacing them with maize. But we are
not there. Before we made our short contribution to this debate,
we wish to remind members that, firstly, that the first
certification judgement of the Constitutional Court was crystal
clear that there was no constitutional dilemma that arises in
members of the executive becoming members of Parliament.
Therefore, the voting process in this motion can never be said
to be constitutional wanting just because members of Cabinet
will participate in this process.
If there was any overlap, the Constitutional Court said it, I
quote: “Provide a singular important check and balance on the
exercise of executive power”. We also wish to commend, the
Speaker, for scheduling this debate timeously. The Speaker
followed the judgement to the latter. In that judgement the
Constitutional Court said the following, I quote: When a member
of a political party within the Assembly acting alone or in
concert with other members of the Assembly tables a motion of no
confidence in terms of section 102 uphold with the rules the
motion deserves the serious and prompt attention of the
responsible committee or committees of the Assembly.
It will also be remiss of us, hon Speaker, not to commend you as
the Speaker for rejecting a secret vote of motion of confidence.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 82
In the UDM case, the Constitutional Court hammered on the notion
of openness as follows: I quote: “Openness is one of our
foundational values and the Assembly internal arrangement,
proceedings and procedures must have due regard to the need to
uphold the value of transparency in carrying out business of the
Assembly”.
We therefore recommend you, hon Speaker, for the leadership you
provided in this regard. Hon Speaker, currently recommended to
the motion against these Cabinet members, we wish to make clear
that we will vote in favour of the motion only against few
Ministers in the main because Cabinet Ministers are also
individual accountable to Parliament in terms of section 92 of
the Constitution. If say for instance, the hon Minister
Mantashe, he has been dismissal acting as a super Minister.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Jafta. Your time has expired.
Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Speaker, I rose not once, but four times,
after the state of the nation addresses and pleaded with the
President to reduce his Cabinet and Deputy Ministers. Those of


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 83
us who are here daily don’t even know some of the Ministers
and/or Deputy Ministers.
Again, those of us who are here may remember that I indicated
that it was bigger than three mostly supported soccer teams in
South Africa. I indicated that if you combine Kaizer Chiefs,
Pirates and Sundowns soccer teams to compare to these Ministers
and Deputy Ministers, you will find that the combined number of
Ministers and Deputy Minister is larger than the combined soccer
teams.
I indicated that his Cabinet is bigger than the riches countries
of the world. I indicated that if you remember. But, are they
all competent? That is the question that we must answer. Not
all, of course. A few are able to do their job, but very many of
them are not competent. Hence some don’t even attend portfolio
committee meetings. They on and give excuses all the time. Why?
That is a question that we must respond to. I indicated the
truth that what they take home as salaries at the end of every
month is too much because they are too many. That money can be
given to the poor people. It can create jobs. It can help the
illiterate and those who are ill.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 84
Some of them are also involved in corruption and nepotism. This
has been reported. This year, in 2022, it was reported to the
Treasury that the money this Ministers and Deputy Ministers
used, comes to about R19 million for cars only. Apart from that,
I am talking about body guards, drivers, and yet some of these
people we do not even know. Should it be really – parting with
all this money?
It is unfortunate that some of them are involved in
mismanagement and even stole Covid-19 resources. What about the
number of houses, the body guards and so on? On houses: They
have house here; and they also have house in Tshwane –Pretoria.
We, as the people of South Africa must pay for all that. I still
therefore plead once again with the President, Mr Deputy
President, to reduce this Cabinet. Otherwise, we are not getting
anywhere at all. Thank you very much!
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Speaker, we must allow the President to
deal with Cabinet Ministers that do not make the cut, and get
them to rise to the occasion. I agree with the hon Shaik Emam
that most of our Cabinet Ministers are doing an excellent job.
It is our duty to hold the executive to account, but this motion
is not about that. Like I said earlier, it is a political stunt
to usurp powers of voters. If the represented political parties


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 85
in Parliament are part of a multiparty Cabinet, we can fast
track the issues of a diverse constituencies.
For Al Jama-Ah for example, we can better address the harm
caused to the dignity of our constituency: Our marriages in
mosques do not get the legal marriage certificate; and
15 000 people are waiting for pilgrimage. They want to go to
Mecca: They can’t get visas to Saudi Arabia; but Saudis get
visas on arrival in South Africa. During apartheid we got visas
on arrival.
Sixty thousand former residents and the children of District Six
have been waiting 20 years for restitution: Only the
intervention of a Deputy President got 107 of them to move into
the units before Ramadan time. Transkei provided us the first
veterans of the liberation struggle, but are the last to get
drinking water. The taps of East London, Port Elizabeth and
Gqeberha are poisoned and people die of poising and thirst.
Al Jama-Ah will vote against this motion. There is no way we
will vote for a motion sponsored by a party and those that they
have captured it, who want to return to white rule!


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 86
I agree once again with hon Shaik Emam that most of our Cabinet
Ministers do exceptionally well. I also call for a multiparty
Cabinet, excluding two of the parties in this House, some of
whose voices you just heard now.
Hon Speaker, call out the name of our party, Al Jama-Ah, and we
will respond that we are voting against the motion. Thank you
very much! [Applause.]
Mr X NQOLA: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, members of the
Cabinet, Deputy Ministers, members of the NA and fellow South
Africans, I think we must draw a significant difference between
the judiciary and the Zondo Judicial Commission of Inquiry into
allegations of state capture, corruption and Fraud in the Public
Sector including organs of state. It is misleading to come
before us and say that people were found guilty by the Zondo
Judicial Commission of Inquiry into allegations of state
capture, corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including
organs of state. Its role was to find and establish a prima
facie case so that the state can pursue it. The commission,
itself, had to apply to the court when it had problems with its
witnesses. So, it is misleading.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 87
The fact that the Ministers are a disgrace, the statement itself
is disgraceful. Chair, hon Moulder comes here, points at
Minister Zulu and asks what has she done for the Department of
Small Business Development. It is too hypocritical because their
sister organisation, AfriForum has taken the Preferential
Procurement Policy to court. Hon Speaker, it is a common cause
that section 102(1) of the Constitution provides that:
If the NA by vote, supported by the majority of its members,
passes a motion of no confidence into Cabinet excluding the
President, the President must reconstitute the Cabinet. This is
a very progressive provision of law that is meant to strengthen
the constitutional democracy. However, we must as members of
this House always avoid using this provision of law for our
selfish and narrow political ends.
This provision of law must always be protected from being used
as a back door instrument to attain power against all odds. The
design and architecture of the South African democracy allows
every person or organisation to attain power by the will of the
people. The only way to ascend to the echelons of power is
through winning the confidence of the people and therefore the
people govern.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 88
The Cabinet, as led by President Ramaphosa, has been focusing on
the empowerment of the previously marginalised people through
ensuring preferential procurement and affirmative action. At the
root of the factors contributed to the July 2021 are the
socioeconomic conditions of our people. A reflection of the
historical legacy and the structure of the economy and a
historical legacy of apartheid. The triple challenges of
unemployment, poverty and inequality must be aggressively
addressed to ensure stability in the country.
The motion alleges that there is contravention of the Oath of
Office by the Ministers without providing any substantial
evidence. It then links this to the redeployment of other
Ministers to another positions in the Cabinet. Redeployments
which are a prerogative of the President are based merely upon
the needs of the state at any particular point in time and these
needs are not static but change in accordance to changing
conditions that confront government. Contravention of Oath of
Office by any member of the Executive is a serious offence.
Currently, there is no incidence or evidence in existence to
suggest that a member of the Executive contravened an Oath of
Office.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 89
The Cabinet has been at the centre of improved intergovernmental
relations, in particular the District Developmental Model. This
is a clear sign of the Cabinet members busy executing their
mandate. We cannot cry about the dereliction of duty at this
particular moment. This Cabinet has responded efficiently to the
co-ordinated response to the Covid-19 pandemic – but you are
making noise. No, no, no, you are making noise.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please allow the speaker.
Mr X NQOLA: Thank you, Speaker, this Cabinet has responded
efficiently to the co-ordinated response to the Covid-19
pandemic and provided through the same Cabinet and departments a
comprehensive package of support to individuals and businesses.
This happened actually at the time Mr Steenhuizen and others ran
for hiding and left our people vulnerable to the ravaging health
crisis.
Government systems have been strengthened in response to
criticism and this has been acknowledged by Parliament. Hon
Speaker, the Constitution empowers the President to appoint and
fire members.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 90
The SPEAKER: Hon Nqola, please take your seat. Hon members,
please stop this running commentary when the speaker is on the
podium. Will you please give respect to him and listen to him as
you would like you to be listened to. It really has to come to
an end. Thank you.
Mr X NQOLA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. From time to time,
the President will make changes to the Cabinet guided by factors
at his disposal as well as performance assessment. Hon Speaker,
we commend you for declining a spurious and frivolous request by
the DA to have Cabinet members not participating and voting in
the no confidence motion. Members of the Cabinet in their
majority are by law members of this Parliament and therefore
will partake fully in its proceedings.
What they were arguing against is the voodoo doctrine of
separation of powers. The motion itself suffers from a number of
flaws. Amongst all it is based upon cheap divisive tactic of
attempting to divide the President from his appointed Cabinet.
Hon Speaker, we shall not have a selective amnesia when it comes
to the Expert Panel Report. The panel report points out that it
failed to meet with all Ministers in the Security Cluster. It
only managed to meet with the Ministers of Police, Defence and
Military Veterans and State Security.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 91
It is premature to allege infighting amongst Ministers in this
regard. The panel itself, concedes that it had no access to the
intelligence information. It also points out that budget
constraints were a cause for the public order police not to have
sufficient tools to swiftly avoid the riots. The report has been
submitted to the President and the processing has already begun
by the Cabinet. Parliament must still engage with the report and
this responsibility must be taken forward by Parliament. Jumping
the gun before Parliament has not applied its mind does not
help.
The Expert Panel report in the July 2021 Civil Unrest does not
point out to what is contained in the motion. Therefore, the
motion carries no substance and must be declared nothing else
but a Twitter generated gossip. We forgive Mr Steenhuizen and
understand him that he is a useless situation. Fellow Cabinet
members, we know, it may not be easy but ...
IsiXhosa:
... hambani ngaloo mandla ninawo.
English:
I thank you. [Applause.]


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 92
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Madam Speaker, since the ANC refuses to review
honestly the performance of this Poverty Cabinet, allow me to
conduct a quick three-minute performance assessment for them.
Let us start with Deputy President Mabuza, who is buried deeper
into the Russian regime than the layers of a nesting doll. Next
are Ministers Dlamini-Zuma and Patel, who once must have had a
terrible encounter with a chain-smoking, flip-flop wearing
alcoholic chicken, because they used the entire lockdown to
settle this vendetta.
Similarly, the only war being waged by Defence Minister Modise
is against the innocent pigs on her farm. That is when she is
not busy popping champagne with the invaders of Ukraine at the
Russian Embassy. Coming in at number four is a true all-rounder
of uselessness, Minister Dlodlo. She both oversaw the failure of
the intelligence services to prevent last year’s violent looting
and granted illegal salary increases to ANC cadres. Minister
Sisulu attacks our Constitution in designer shoes while tourism
businesses fold. While our railways collapse and potholes gobble
up our roads, Transport Minister Fikile Mbalula tweets about his
dream of going to the moon. South Africans would gladly pay for
the trip as long as it is a one-way ticket, and luckily the
Minister is so full of hot air that we would probably save a
fortune on rocket fuel. Speaking of fuel, what about Energy


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 93
Minister Mantashe? He is the last living member of a species of
fossil fuel dinosaur previously thought extinct, and boy is he
making it count. He spends his days fighting against renewable
energy and taxing us to death at the petrol pump, and in his
spare time, he defies the Zondo Commission over Bosasa
corruption.
Then there is the Mad Hatter himself. Police Minister Cele
spends R8 million to protect every ANC VIP while slashing the
police budget for ordinary South Africans by nearly R4 billion.
And who can forget Minister Zulu, who rides around in armoured
vehicles shooting the pensioners and poor people she is supposed
to protect with water cannons? Bad old Minister De Lille hung
South Africans out to dry to the tune of R37 million on her
washing line, and she forgot to open the sprinkler valves that
could have prevented Parliament from burning to the ground.
Instead of fixing our education system, Minister Blade Nzimande
tries to rewrite history to classify Afrikaans as well as Khoi-
San languages as “foreign”, while Minister Motshekga is trying
to carry out a coup against the powers of school governing
bodies.
Minister Ndabeni-Abrahams is somehow both employed and
unemployed at the same time, as she has been completely replaced


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 94
by Sipho Nkosi in the President’s parallel Cabinet. Minister
Mthethwa is paid R2,5 million a year to issue condolences during
the brief flashes when he is awake in Parliament. Minister
Gordhan continues to flush taxpayer money down the SOE drain
faster than Tom Moyane flushed Zuma’s tax records. The
metaphorical hole in Minister Nkoana-Mashabane’s ...
[Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Point of order, hon member.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: ... head has clearly still not healed.
The SPEAKER: Hon Schreiber!
Dr L A SCHREIBER: If this Poverty Cabinet had to go back to
school ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a point of order.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: ... not one of them would even each the
pathetic 30% pass requirement they set for our children.
The SPEAKER: Hon Schreiber, there is a point of order. Point of
order!


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 95
Dr L A SCHREIBER: It is time to put them all out to pasture.
Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Schreiber! Hon Schreiber! Hon member Schreiber,
may I address you?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, address him.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Most certainly, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes. I tried to indicate to you several times that
there is a point of order.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: I could not hear because of all the heckling,
Madam Speaker. [Interjections.] Once again, once again.
The SPEAKER: Can you just please be decent and say you did not
... [Interjections.] ...
Dr L A SCHREIBER: I did not hear.
The SPEAKER: ... No, you did hear.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 96
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Madam Speaker. They were howling.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: At the rate at which you were moving, there was a
point of order, anyway.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: They were howling, Madam Speaker. Okay, I am
willing to listen.
The SPEAKER: Hon Zulu, what was your point of order?
[Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Speaker, on a point of
order: My point of order was relating to the hon member casting
aspersions on ... [Interjections.] ... you see ...
IsiZulu:
... umbhedo onje awufuneki la eNingizimu Afrika. [Ubuwelewele.]
(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... such nonsense is undesirable here in South Africa.
[Interjections.]]
English:


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 97
The SPEAKER: Okay! Okay, hon member.
IsiZulu:
Mnu T W MHLONGO: Nawe uyabheda! (Translation of isiZulu
paragraph follows.)
[Mr T W MHLONGO: You are also talking nonsense!]
English:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: My point of order was the
member knows when he has substantial information he needs to
bring it to the House and not cast aspersions. In fact, to be
honest, to insult some members of the Cabinet, that is exactly
what the member did when he was standing there.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Zulu.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Angazi nokuthi
isibongo sakuphi lesi sakwa-Schreiber. Angazi ukuthi yimbongi
yakuphi le.
Ms T M MBABAMA: Hlala phansi, Ginger! (Translation of isiZulu
paragraph follows.)


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 98
[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I do not even know where
does the surname Schreiber originate from. I do not know where
does this praise singer come from.
Ms T M MBABAMA: Take your seat, Ginger!]
English:
Mr M J CUTHBERT: The truth hurts.
The SPEAKER: The point is noted and ... okay. Hon member, I will
check the record and return if it is necessary, but I think some
of the ... the manner in which we are conducting ourselves at
times needs reflection by the Rules Committee. I believe we
should.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the motion of the Leader of the Opposition be
agreed to.
Division demanded.
House divided.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 99
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members. Hon members, hon
members, hon members ... Hon members, will you please take your
seats. Hon Tshabalala, please. The Rules of the National
Assembly provide for different procedures for members to cast
votes. These include ... [Interjections.] Hon members of the
majority party ... Hon Papo, yes, please. Just give me time.
I’ve been well advised and I’ve prepared for what I am going to
say here. Hon Tshabalala, lower your hand. Thank you. We
continue, hon members.
The Rules of the National Assembly provide for different
procedures for members to cast votes. These include by
electronic means by way of a Whip or by voice. The Rules also
stipulate that the Speaker must predetermine the procedure. For
this division, the Speaker has determined that a manual voting
system will be used. In this case, there will be a roll call
whereby each member will be called upon and requested to voice
his or her vote. I have determined this procedure specifically
for this vote and as a result of an electronic voting system not
being in operation.
Hon members, those who have been locked out will be free to log
into the virtual system. [Interjections.] When voting commences,
the doors of the Chamber will be locked ... [Interjections.] ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 100
and members will not be ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] All
those who were connected on the system, right? ... will still be
able to connect as long as we have proven that they were on the
system. [Interjections.] If you were on the system ...
[Interjections.] Remember, hon members, sit down please. Take
your seat. Thank you. Remember, hon members, that this is the
first time that we are utilising a roll call system, which is
provided for in the Rules. And all those who were connected to
the virtual system will still continue and connect to the
virtual system.
Now, when voting commences ...
Ms J TSHABALALA: Speaker, point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please allow me to finish. Hon member,
when voting commences the doors to the Chamber will be locked
and members will not be allowed to enter the virtual platform if
they were not on the virtual platform. The Secretary will
thereafter call each member from the membership list, starting
with those from the majority party in alphabetical order.
Members will be called by their surnames, followed by their
initials. When a member is called, the member must indicate
whether they are for or against the question, or whether they


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 101
wish to abstain. In this regard, they must indicate their vote
by only indicating yes, or no or abstain. The Secretariat will
then record and tally the votes. In order to facilitate this
process, I would appeal to hon members to indicate their vote
without delay. Furthermore, I would request members on the
virtual platform to put on their video feed when they respond.
In the event a member’s name is called and they are present,
but, for whatever reason, do not indicate their vote, an
opportunity will be provided after the last member is called
from the list for members to raise their hands at which point
they will be recognised to cast their vote.
Order! The Secretary will indicate whether we do have a quorum.
May I recognise the hon Tshabalala?
Ms J TSHABALALA: Thank you so much, hon Speaker. Hon Speaker, I
am rising on a point of order primarily because when you started
and you said the door must be closed, there were colleagues
right outside the door. [Interjections.] They even pushed the
door. I am raising this point of order because, Speaker,
according to the Rules, as you read them, when we commence we
have not commenced with the voting. Hon members, are just
outside the door and I feel, Speaker, they should be allowed to
enter because they were at the door. And colleagues were even


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 102
holding the door while they were pushing it as we said, “Close
the door.” I really feel that would prejudice Members of
Parliament who were here, who went for a comfort break, which is
allowed. The next thing they are not allowed to come inside
Parliament when they have the right to cast their votes. So, I
am really saying, Speaker, they should be allowed to come inside
all the members who were outside when you closed the door on
them, because that door was closed on them. That’s really unfair
... they will be prejudiced. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tshabalala, hon members ... [Interjections.]
... hon members. Hon Leader of the Opposition, I will recognise
you.
Hon members, we said we were adjourning for 10 minutes. After 10
minutes – because of the unique situation we find ourselves in –
voting started. What happened was that I was still explaining
the “how” part of the voting process, because this is a new
system for us. We have never used the roll call system and
that’s really what I was explaining. If we were using an
electronic system ... [Interjections.] ... like we were using
... Please, hon member. Please. Honestly. And put on your mask.
If we were in a Chamber where we had an electronic system, we
would have reconvened and the ushers would have shut the doors.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 103
[Interjections.] I hope I am understood, hon member. Hon member,
yes?
Mr T V MASHELE: Speaker, you just explained the Rules to us that
the doors would be locked once voting started. [Interjections.]
Our members were locked outside as they were trying to come in.
Could you please, Speaker, let them inside?
The SPEAKER: Hon Pandor ... Oh, sorry, before you, hon Pandor,
there was a hand; hon Steenhuisen, followed by the hon Pandor. I
am recognising you, hon members, because this is the first time
we are using this system. We should not be discussing it now.
Thank you. Hon Steenhuisen?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I would submit that
there is no difference to this system than the one we have used
in the past when it comes to the procedure when a division is
called. Rule 112 is abundantly clear: that once the time has
expired, the doors are then barred. This must be applied
consistently in Parliament. In the previous Parliament, the
Leader of the Opposition was locked out of one of the debates,
and that is just how the cookie crumbles. You shouldn’t have
left the Chamber for more than 10 minutes – nobody would be
required to – and, I’m sorry, but we can’t now bend the Rules


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 104
just because it suits one particular person or one particular
party. We must be consistent, otherwise these Rules are not
worth the paper they are printed on.
The SPEAKER: I thank you, hon member. Hon Pandor, followed by
the hon ...
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Speaker, that is the very point. Unfortunately, the division has
begun. We don’t normally have debate during a division, nor can
you call points of order during a division. You proceed with a
division. [Applause.] You have made the right decision.
The SPEAKER: The point having been made ... [Interjections.] Hon
... [Interjections.] Hon Maotwe ...
IsiXhosa:
... kodwa ...Lungu elihloniphekileyo uMaotwe, kodwa uyahlupha
sisi.
English:
Put on your mask and please, man, behave. Yes, hon Shivambu?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 105
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, Speaker. I don’t think we
should bend the Rules to accommodate the ill-disciplined Chief
Whip of the Majority Party who was busy taking photos here ...
[Interjections.]
The PARLIAMENTARY COUNSELLOR TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Mr A H M
Papo): Order! Order! Order!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... taking photos here and literally strolling
outside ... [Interjections.]
The PARLIAMENTARY COUNSELLOR TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Mr A H M
Papo): Order! Order! Order!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We can’t accommodate ... [Interjections.]
[Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The PARLIAMENTARY COUNSELLOR TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Mr A H M
Papo): I call a point of order because member Shivambu is
casting aspersions on our Chief Whip. [Interjections.] Whether
the Chief Whip is inside or outside has nothing to do with
discipline. It’s a matter of procedure of the House and we will
not allow member Shivambu to abuse this platform to impugn the


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 106
integrity of our Chief Whip. We will not allow him to do that.
He can maybe do it in an EFF meeting, not here.
The SPEAKER: Hon members ... Hon members ... Hon member
Ntlangwini, hon Mkaliphi, hon Maotwe, please! Hon Mente! Now,
hon members, we do ... Order! Order! Having confirmed that we
have the requisite quorum, we will now proceed.
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
During voting:
An HON MEMBER: Order, Speaker. We didn’t see the face of
Minister Gordhan, please. [Interjections.] It can be an
imposter.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, may I ... it is true, actually. It is
true. May I just remind us that in terms of the rules we did say
that you will switch on your video so that we can confirm that
the person who is voting is a member. Thank you.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 107
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, hon Kibi is at hospital and we
agreed that we will not show the faces of the people who are
sick.
The SPEAKER: Do I know who’s in hospital? Do I know who is in
hospital?
Hon members ... thank you, hon Radebe. Do I know who’s in
hospital? Thank you very much, hon Radebe.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, on a point of order. When you outlined
the rules there were no exceptions of ... if people can’t vote,
they can’t vote. It’s as simple as that, like ... don’t give
exceptions in terms of what happens because a lot of excuses are
going to be given there ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, hon members, to be honest, the Chief
Whip of the Majority Party did indicate to me that there are
seven people who will not be available, who are in hospital.
However, that’s the reason I’m asking you, I was not given the
list of the names of the people who are in hospital. So, no one
can blame me for saying they should show their faces. So, that
is the issue, hon Shivambu. Thank you.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 108
The SPEAKER: Hon member, just a point of order. Hon member, what
do you mean by he’s voting with his stomach? Hon Koornhof
responded and said no, and you are saying he’s voting with his
stomach, what does that mean? [Interjections.] No, you don’t do
that. There’s no one who votes with a stomach here, we vote with
our mouths. Thank you.
AN HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. Mr Luzipho
was ‘ON’ but I couldn’t hear what he said. He was just talking
but there was no sound.
Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. Hon Mahlo did
not come on, so I’m assuming [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] going
to be recorded ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon who? [Interjections.] No, she did.
Ms S GWARUBE: Can I finish, Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She did.
Ms S GWARUBE: Okay, has she been recorded as having voted? Thank
you.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 109
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, let’s proceed. Let’s go ahead.
[Interjections.] Please, order!
Sesotho:
E kgotswa e le maoto mane. Le lona le tla etsa jwalo ...
English:
... next time.
An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker, can we ask the Table to wait
until we’ve confirmed, before they call the next
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please show your faces, show your faces, we
don’t accept your ‘No’. Show your faces.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, if I may rise
on a point of order. I’m sorry to interrupt you, sir, who is
calling out the votes. Sir, I’ve just been informed that Thabang
Makwetla is not connected on the virtual platform, and voted on
Sizwe Mchunu’s connection. And I don’t think that, that is
allowed.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 110
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We’ll verify that. it will be verified.
Let’s proceed. [Interjections.] Order, order ...
Afrikaans:
Julle kan nie so skree nie! Wat gaan met julle aan?
English:
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker,
the issue of voting, we don’t have anything on the rules that
says we cannot use the same instrument if we are seated
together. Thank you. [Interjections.] He showed his face.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please, let’s not discuss this.
I said we’ll verify this. Let’s ... from all angles, let’s
leave, let’s proceed, let’s not ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, would you give
me a chance when you’re finished?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker
[Interjections.] Hon Zulu ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 111
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, don’t
respond to hon Zulu, she’s out of order. Please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, even
though I’m a Buddhist, I don’t like it when people blaspheme in
the House, but I suppose ... I mean ... to take it when it
comes.
The Speaker, who self-directly said, that everyone must be
logged on and that no one would be allowed to log on afterwards.
She explicitly explained that to the House for the voting ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, look at what you’re doing now.
you’re ruling on my behalf ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I’m not ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... and I’m suggesting to you ... no ... I’m
not going to ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m simply explaining what’s
fair. So, what’s fair is fair ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 112
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s proceed. This thing is
noted here and so on. We will come back and finalize that. I’m
not going to allow you discuss this matter now, we are
proceeding. Let’s proceed!
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: We have to speak on this issue, you can’t
supress us ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I can. The rule says when the presiding
officer has made a ruling you can’t debate the same issue ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, that’s a wrong. This is what happens
then. When I rise on a point of order you never allow me to
speak ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let’s deal with these things at
an appropriate time, that’s all I’m saying. So, you can’t be
going back to the same thing. I’m not going to change my mind on
it ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 113
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No ... you see? But this is what you do when I
rise on a point of order ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because I have to rule ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: I’m still on a point order. Do you know what
I’m going to say?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, allow us to proceed ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Are you not recognising my point of order?
Deputy Speaker, on what basis are you not recognizing my point
of order?
Ms N P MAHLO: We can’t be having points or order during the
voting!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you saying?
Ms M R SEMENYA: Points of order when we are voting are not
allowed ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, I’m asking on what basis are you not
recognizing ... the fact that I raised a point of order.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 114
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying, hon member?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: The problem here, Deputy Speaker, is that
you’re creating a wrong precedent ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying, hon member?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, wait for me. I’m speaking
IsiXhosa:
Kutheni uthetha ndithetha nje? Kutheni uthetha ndithetha?
English:
... why are you showing impatience?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member,
IsiZulu:
... uma ungafuni ukuqeda, sizoqhubeka. Ngizoqhubeka uma
ungaqedi.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi, ndiza kuthetha ...
English:


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 115
... this is the problem you create. Can I finish?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish!
Mr N L S KWANKWA: ... because I’m going to finish my point ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish!
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, don’t talk while I’m talking ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish! Hon member ... [Interjections.]
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, I’ll wait for you to keep quiet ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, finish your point ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, no, I’ll wait for you to keep quiet.
You’re not going to treat us like kids here ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish you point, hon member. You’re
delaying the meeting here ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 116
Mr N L S KWANKWA: The point that I’m making is that the rules
were clear, that everyone who is allowed to vote on the virtual
platform is the person who was connected before the 10 minutes’
period expired ... at the beginning of the process. How is a
person who is not connected in the virtual platform allowed to
vote on someone else’s gadget? It’s wrong. [Applause.]
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Then it means all the ANC members who are not
connected on the virtual platform can vote using other people’s
... what’s the point of having the rules then?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I said in my ruling, we will
verify that. Now, I don’t know why you think ... you are not the
verification I was looking for, by the way. There’s a more
appropriate way to verify whether hon Makwetla was connected or
not, than your voice. That’s all I’m pleading with you, to
appreciate. Let’s proceed, hon members.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. I just
want to enquire whether you have not forgotten ‘M-e’ because you
are already at ‘M-p’?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 117
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Moruti [Reverend], you are not a
member of ANC. Moruti wants to join ANC.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Moruti, you got [Interjections.]
[Inaudible.] your ... we are coming to you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: No, I wanted to put in a ‘Yes’.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, we are coming to you. Don’t worry, just
hang on there tight. We’ll call you at the appropriate time.
Yes, Deputy Chief Whip?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker,
my apologies for disrupting this process. I just want to check
with you, hon Deputy Speaker, if maybe the House can allow those
members who have voted to go to the loo because it’s going to be
a very long process and some members are seriously pressed.
Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who have voted?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Yes.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 118
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Where, here?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Here, yes.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s a difficult one. [Laughter.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, if I may, Rule
112(2) - When the doors have been barred, no member may enter or
leave the Chamber until the results of the division has been
declared. But I do have a few empty water bottles available.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please let’s not debate this,
please. Let’s not debate this matter. The rules are as they are.
Yes, hon Zulu?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Respectfully, Deputy
Speaker, we don’t want to debate. But as a matter of fact, there
are members who have held issues, they just want to go and
release themselves and come back. Now, any member who can really
argue over a plea for a member to go to the bathroom and come
back, that’s all we are asking for.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 119
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it’s difficult. I’m going to
consult on it. Let’s wait. It’s not easy. Let’s proceed in the
meantime.
Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, on an unrelated matter to the
bathroom issue. [Interjections.] Hon Mothapo voted with hon
Hadebe’s device. Please can that be recorded and checked
accordingly. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Similarly, we’ll rule on those later. We are
working on that. Please proceed!
Mr T N MMUTLE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. I thought
you’ll rule on the order that was raised by the Deputy Chief
Whip because ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I did say I will consult and I’ll come
back now ...
Mr T N MMUTLE: But, time is an issue because some of us are
pressed. We won’t wait for five hours for you to consult ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Rules ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 120
Mr T N MMUTLE: No, no, remember, those rules were designed for a
particular sitting, not a sitting where we will vote for hours,
Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, we know that ...
Mr T N MMUTLE: It’s for the first time that we are dealing with
this particular kind of a scenario. Therefore, you must make
consideration of those facts. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I am. Okay. Please proceed in the
meantime.
Ms A STEYN: Deputy Speaker, maybe I’m also pressed for the
bathroom. But I didn’t see Myolwa Dingaan Jacob, but Myeni
voting twice.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, on a point
of order. The member is making a joke of something very serious.
And her comments about maybe I’m whatever to the ... it’s not
right. The member must not do that, hon Deputy Speaker. Just ask
her to withdraw. [Interjections.]


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 121
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, I don’t think you should
do that [Interjections.] it’s ... don’t ... no ... we shouldn’t
be doing that. Yes!
Hon members, this is an unprecedented thing, as we were told
earlier on here. We invite all the Chief Whips, we want people
only, and this is the difficulty of the problem, this is why I
had to slow down on it. There are people who have voted, who can
be asked to go and come back; but none of anyone of us who have
not, like me, can go out. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: It won’t happen, we also
want to go out, Deputy Speaker. We are also pressed. Nature is
not calling those who have voted alone.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, we can’t allow ... yes, what’s your
point, hon Deputy Chief Whip?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Hon Deputy Speaker, our
request is that any member who is pressed, who wants to go to
the loo can be released to go to the loo. So, we are
volunteering that we will stand by the door so that we don’t
allow people who were locked out earlier to come in, only those


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 122
who were in the House. So, we’ll be standing there to allow
members to go.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Kwankwa?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, I think from where I’m sitting
a comfort break will make a much better sense because
[Interjections.] there’s a possibility that a person’s name, who
is in the loo, might be called here while the process is going
on. And we would have to revisit the name again. And it’s indeed
a problem that it’s not only those members who have voted who
want a comfort break, we all do. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members. Yes, hon Chief Whip of the
Opposition?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, as a solution
to this problem because I think it’s getting a bit ridiculous
that as adults we are talking about going to the toilet, and
people do need to go to the toilet. Maybe a five-minute comfort
break, but we have Whips at every one of the doors making sure
that no one, who was locked out previously, comes back in.
Because then we can have absolutely no further interruptions for
people needing the toilet. But this is highly unusual, we must


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 123
note it, that it is highly unusual and not setting a precedent
for future voting. But it’s now getting to the point where it is
little bit embarrassing for people that are about to wet
themselves. [Interjections.] Ya [Yes], because the toilets are
limited, and especially the ladies’ toilets, only two work.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take a seat, thank you. Hon members,
we are going to have to limit ... hon members, we must
appreciate the difficulty we are in and it relies on our
dependability to do the right thing so that we release people
who are needing to go urgently, and there are people who are
monitoring that nobody who was not in here comes in. Let’s allow
that. But only a few people there and then when they come back
others can go out, so that it’s controlled, it’s controlled
because there are limited loos. We can’t go and queue there like
it’s an Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, voting station.
Please, let’s do that, hon members.
The guy with the bell will ring it after five minutes.
COMFORT BREAK GRANTED FOR FIVE MINUTES – 17:58
VOTING RESUMES AT 18:08


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 124
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
During voting
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on guideline Rule 12. It
says that in the event that someone voting on a virtual platform
loses connectivity, whatever it may be, they must be reported to
the Table Staff. So, I have a list of ANC members who were there
and the ICT people must verify their presence during that time.
Their names are Dr Basopu, Luzipo, Thabang Makwetla,
Mahambehlala, Mothapo, Mahlaule, Siwela E K, Tlhape ...
[Interjections.] ... and Zibule ... [Interjections.] Please
protect me.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are protected. Wait, let me find out if
we are moving to the next group. So, you are saying that list
you are reading ... [Interjections.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Sorry?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What about that list you are reading?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 125
Mr B A RADEBE: They are those people who didn’t get an
opportunity when they were on the platform, just like Dr Basopu
who was there, Tlhape was there, Zibule was there ... so they
will have to check it through the ICT system. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Radebe, please ...
Sesotho:
... ntate, jwale wena o bua le bo mang moo? Mamela ...
English:
... in the first place, that issue was raised right at the
beginning. So, there is no need for us to do that; we will just
verify that and that’s all. Let us move on. No, hon Steenhuisen,
do not introduce that now. Let us proceed.
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, I am so sorry, may I rise on a
point of order. One of my member’s gadget battery is almost dead
and will not be able to vote when the ACDP is called later. Will
it be possible for him to either join on his laptop or can he
vote earlier? He is just concerned he might be rejected from the
platform. Rev Meshoe has been on the platform all the time but
it is a concern.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 126
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We saw that. We will ask them to sort it out
with the ICT people and so on. We will sort that out because it
is visible.
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
During voting
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the hon
member must bring a substantial motion to the House which we can
defend. He must then also withdraw from calling us a bunch of
crooks because that is not what we are. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nithule nina nobabili. Yazi ninomsindo. Yazi nana, soloko naba
ngabelungu.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let me rule on this. Hon
members, I know we are very zealous to do this thing but it is
wrong to call anybody a crook, in the House or outside of the
House. It is wrong; it is not acceptable. Hon member who just
said a bunch of crooks can you withdraw that please? It is an
offensive language. It is offensive and falls in the category of


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 127
the Rules of offensiveness. It is incorrect and it is not
acceptable. So, that is the ruling I make.
Mr L J BASSON: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw, but I still vote the
big fat yes.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let us proceed. Keep your
language ... be careful of the language that you use. However
strong you feel, let’s keep the decorum of the House, and you
know the Rules. Hon Steenhuisen, why are you talking whilst the
presiding officer is speaking? Is that appropriate, hon member?
You are not responding to me, and I am saying to you don’t do
it; it is not acceptable, hon member. Please, just take it. Yes?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to make a point of
order, Deputy Speaker, on the ruling you just made. You have
allowed ANC members to call us a bunch of racists all day, and
you have not said one word about it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I haven’t. Hon members ... [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, we have been called racists
by a number of ANC speakers, and because it has not been
directed at an individual member, you haven’t made anyone


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 128
withdraw. Why are you now ... [Inaudible.] ... a different set
of Rules for DA speakers? They have been goading the DA
throughout the Vote and you have said not one word. Now that
they get a taste of their own medicine you rush in to protect
them.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, look at ...
[Interjections.] Hon members, please keep quiet. Hon
Steenhuisen, in the first place, I haven’t been in this chair
the whole day. None of you raised that as an issue to the
Speaker while she was in the chair. You did not raise that to
the Speaker as a point of order. And you know that when a ruling
has been made you can’t challenge it in the House; you know
where to go and what to do. It is inappropriate what you have
just done on those two grounds; misrepresentation of what
happened and inappropriate application of the Rules. It is
wrong. Hon members, let us proceed.
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
During voting


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 129
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, my point of
order is related to something called poverty Cabinet. I do not
think we have a cabinet like that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is a political statement. That is not a
point of order.
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
The Secretary to the National Assembly proceeded to call Members
of the National Assembly by name, in alphabetical order, by
party.
During voting
The DEPUTY SPEAKER Yes, hon member?
Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, Chabangu is one of the members on
the list we provided to your Table staff. They have proof that
they were kicked out during voting. We have a list of members
who were provided to your Table staff, and Chabangu is one of
them. [Interjections.] We are very much speaking for ...


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 130
[Inaudible.] ... ourselves, mama neh! Let’s not go there. And he
votes yes to the motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.] Take your
seat, hon member. Take your seat. Hon members, let me just make
this ruling here. It has been brought to my attention that there
are two issues, maybe more, which we must bring to the attention
of the House. One, there are members who, for whatever reason,
have difficulties with their connectivity or gadgets and may
have used another gadget. Another category concerns five members
of the EFF, the hon Malema, Madokwe, Chirwa, Siwisa and Khawula.
The report we are receiving is that the members were on the
virtual platform when the voting started, but we should verify
this.
Rule 117(2) provides that party Whips may, at the request of any
affected members, scrutinise the electronic voting results at
the Table, and under their signature make limited corrections,
provided the corrections made do not affect the result of the
division. This Rule refers to electronic voting. The principle
should apply to other types of voting, like this one. In other
words, where there are reasonable grounds, limited corrections
should be made. Hon members, we have during the hybrid sessions
allowed members to speak on behalf of others when there are


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 131
challenges with connectivity. I have to protect the right of
members to exercise their right to vote, if we can verify that
the rules were not bridged or the system is not subverted.
Therefore, a member who has shown their face and expressed their
position, we will allow their vote if we can verify their
connection or there is a legitimate explanation. For members who
reported that they were on the platform when the voting started
but they were kicked out, we will verify that too. The result
will be announced and if verifiable, corrections can be made.
This may be effected in the minutes. The minutes will be
adjusted accordingly to an extent that the adjustment do not
affect the result outcome of the division. So, that is the
reason we are raising this here. Thank you, let’s proceed.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Deputy Speaker, all these crooks, together
with their father, must go.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw that statement.
Sepedi:
Ms M R SEMENYA: Gape khurukhu ke wena!
English:


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 132
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashabela, withdraw that reference of
crooks. We have just ruled on it earlier on.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Ooh, I withdraw, but they must go.
Mr D F MTHENJANE: Deputy Speaker …
Sesotho:
Ha o we mmuso wa mashodu, ha o we!
English:
I am voting yes.
Mr A H M PAPO: Order! [Interjections.] Deputy Speaker, you made
a ruling about the issue of calling people masela [thieves],
crooks. The member just said mashodu [thieves]. [Interjections.]
Sesotho:
MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Hula mantswe ao mme. A hule, a hule, ha
amohelehe.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 133
Ms O M C MAOTWE: The member did not say that to anyone, he said
the government.
Sepedi:
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Mmu?o! O rile mmu?o wa mahodu, ga se a re
semangmang wa lehodu.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw that statement.
[Interjections.] Hon member, I am waiting for you to withdraw
that statement. [Interjections.]
Mrs M R MOHLALA: Yes, Deputy Speaker, I vote in support of the
motion.
Setswana:
Dikeleme a di tsamae.
Mrs S M MOKGOTHO: Deputy Speaker, I vote, yes, to this
incompetent Cabinet and the President.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Deputy Speaker, the
motion here is about Cabinet Ministers.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 134
Setswana:
... fa ore dikeleme di tsamae ...
English:
... it means you are referring to those Cabinet Ministers and I
think it is out of order. Please, rule!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it is appropriate not to
degenerate. We have spoken about this, the use of language. I
noticed that one of the members has refused to withdraw. We have
taken the names. The hon member who has just said ...
Sesotho:
... dikeleme, re kopa o hule mantswe ao, a hule hona jwale!
English:
Hon members, it’s not appropriate to make reference to people
who you have not brought substantive motions to the House - it
is not correct. Generalisation is wrong because you too would
take exception if you are generalised. It’s incorrect, and it’s
not allowed. We have ruled against that and anybody who uses it
we will deal with it. You will deal with the consequences of
doing that. We are going to take it up. Let’s proceed.


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 135
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Yes. Next time ...
IsiXhosa:
Kwilixa elizayo ze nize apha kum ndinifundise ukuba urhulumente
ubhukuqwa kanjani na.
English:
The Bosasa boys and girls must go with their potholes. A big,
yes.
isiXhosa:
La masela.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chair.
I think your ruling on the use of language covers everybody.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s correct. [Interjections.]
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE (Ms P DE LILLE):
Deputy speaker, my vote is no to the poverty of ideas by the
apartheid alliance circus. Inkosi kakhulu [Thank you very much.]
[Interjections.] Shut up!


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 136
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, hokaai! Hokaai, hokaai, hokaai!
Wait, wait, wait! Hon Minister De Llile. Hon Minister De Llile,
you are not supposed to say shut up. That’s not supposed to be
said. It’s inappropriate. [Interjections.]
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURE (Ms P DE LILLE):
I withdraw but they are talking nonsense. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members, you can’t do what you are
doing! [Interjections.] Let’s go. I will come back.
[Interjections.]
Ms A STEYN: May I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
Ms A STEYN: Hon De Lille must just withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not the one making the ruling in the
House. I do. Just wait, just wait. I made rulings here and you
didn’t say that about all the other members. Why do you pick her
up for that? [Interjections.] No, no, no! You should wait a
minute. There are ruling I have made; you didn’t say I must make
them. Why do you insist on this one?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 137
Voting continues
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I need to point out that as
indicated earlier, members who have remained present but could
not, when called, indicate their vote, may now raise their hands
if there is anyone here in the House. Those who remain present
but could not, when called, indicate their vote, especially on
the virtual platform, may now raise their hands or indicate from
the platform so that I can enable them to indicate their vote.
If there is none, that is okay. [Interjections.]
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. We spoke
against the use of placards in Parliament.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yes.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the member was unable to speak
... [Interjections.]
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yes, he can speak now. Why is he using a
placard?


 
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 30 MARCH 2022
Page: 138
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Okay. Thank you. I overruled you, hon
member. That is not a point of order. That member had problems
communicating with us. He has thought through what to do, to
communicate his ... [Interjections.]
VOTING
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question not agreed to.
Motion accordingly negative.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please wait. We requested you
to give us names, some of you did, but if there is any name that
was not in the list, do that because we want to correct the
minutes of the sitting so that they are correctly captured.
Please do not forget to do that. That’s the message we want to
pass so that it happens here.
The House adjourned at 19:36.


Audio

No related