Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 27 Nov 2012

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

TUESDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2012

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

The Council met at 14:01.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr D A WORTH: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that it has been revealed that the equipment to test the roadworthiness of vehicles at four major testing stations in the Free State is not working;

(2) further notes that the situation, just before the festive season, is forcing inspectors at the centres to perform manual checks before issuing certificates of fitness for vehicles, many of which are for passenger transport, thereby risking lives of people;

(3) also notes that in Gauteng, it has been ascertained that many corrupt officials have accepted bribes and issue roadworthy certificates without ever having seen the car; and

(4) suggests that spot checks be carried out in the Free State by the Department of Police, Roads and Transport to ensure that vehicles have indeed been tested correctly and are roadworthy.

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that Riaan Cruywagen, who is dubbed the face of Afrikaans news, has retired after a career of 47 years in broadcasting and news reading for 37 years;

(2) further notes that this veteran Afrikaans SABC TV news anchor read the Afrikaans news for the last time in the news bulletin on SABC 2 at 7pm last night, 26 November 2012;

(3) also notes that he is known for always claiming that he would continue to read the news until he got it right;

(4) further notes that Cruywagen, who presented over 7000 news bulletins during his illustrious career as broadcaster, presented his first news bulletin on 26 November 1975 at 20:00 and he still remembers the news stories of that bulletin;

(5) takes this opportunity to wish this son of the soil a happy retirement filled with good health, prosperity and quality time with his family; and

(6) notes that South Africans will miss his friendly smile and professionalism.

Mr M C MAINE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day ... Sorry, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): What is that? Is it a motion without notice? [Laughter.]

Mr M C MAINE: I don’t have my spectacles on, Chairperson. [Laughter.]

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the biggest water crisis in the history of Colesberg was caused by poor management and maintenance by the Umsobomvu municipality and led to the pump station being submerged in the Orange River;

(2) further notes that despite limited water access and availability to the citizens in the last two years, this event further put the community in a crisis on the eve of the December holiday;

(3) also notes that hospitals, clinics, schools, guest houses and businesses cannot function properly; and

(4) notes that the Department of Water and Forestry, as an emergency measure, has appointed a private company that is busy salvaging the pontoon and pumps.

Mr S S MAZOSIWE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes and welcomes the ruling by the Cape Town High Court last week that the courts cannot interfere in areas outside their competence;

(2) further notes in particular that courts cannot and should not dictate to Parliament;

(3) also notes that this ruling in fact re-affirms the doctrine of separation of powers enshrined in the Constitution;

(4) further notes the concern expressed by the court about the growing tendency by some political parties, particularly the DA, to abuse and politicise the judiciary by running to the courts to resolve inter-party disagreements that should be resolved in Parliament;

(5) takes this opportunity to welcome the court’s rebuking of politicians in this regard;

(6) calls on all opposition parties, in particular the DA, to respect parliamentary processes and the separation of powers between the legislative authority and the judiciary; and

(7) requests opposition parties to refrain from politicising and abusing the judiciary.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes the DA had its fifth successful Federal Congress this past weekend in Johanesburg;

(2) further notes that the Premier of the Western Cape, Helen Zille, was elected unopposed as the DA Federal Leader;

(3) also notes that Wilmot James was elected as Federal Chairperson, and Musi Maimane, Makashule Gana and Anchen Dreyer as Deputy Chairpersons;

(4) further notes that this is the top team which will lead the DA into the new democratic dispensation in South Africa - One Nation, One Future;

(5) also notes that the ANC must be warned to this unity approach and march of the party with the highest voter growth in all sectors of the population;

(6) further notes that the ANC is facing many problems such disloyalty of members, service delivery protests, maladministration, corruption and fighting for positions in and outside the party;

(7) notes that DA has just one goal, namely to unite the people of South Africa to have better future; and

(8) is requested to debate One Nation, One Future.

Mrs N W MAGADLA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes with concern the recent equality report of the South African Human Rights Commission;

(2) further notes that the report has revealed that almost 470 000 disabled children are not going to school;

(3) also notes that only 3 percent of special schools in South Africa have the necessary requirements to cater for the needs of disabled children;

(4) further notes that education for children, including disabled children, is not only a fundamental human right, but also essential for the alleviation of poverty and sustainable development;

(5) also notes that the impact of keeping disabled children out of school and economically inactive, contributes significantly to the impoverishment of disabled people and their families;

(6) takes this opportunity to call on the Ministers of Basic Education, and of Women, Children and People with Disabilities to ensure that policies and programmes in this regard are implemented fully; and

(7) calls on all role players to support national education plans with strategies to overcome the exclusion of disabled children from education

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon member. Does any member wish to move a motion without notice? Hon Maine, you may proceed because you had a motion without notice.

Mr M C MAINE: Thank you, Chairperson. Because of what has been said by the DA, I would rather not.

WATER PROBLEM IN THE SOL PLAATJE MUNICIPALITY

(Draft Resolution)

Mr G G MOKGORO: Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes that water levels of the Newton Reservoir in the Sol Plaatje Municipality in the Northern Cape have stabilised;

further notes that as a result whereof the municipality has decided to cease the controlled switching off of water during the evenings;

also notes that the municipality has recently embarked on a water saving exercise after the main pipe that supplies water to the CBD and townships burst;

leaving residents and businesses without water supply;

also notes that the pipe was repaired but the municipality’s switching off the water supply during the evenings to allow water levels to rise and currently the inflow of water in the dams exceeds consumption; and

welcomes the speedy solution to the problem and calls on all communities to use water sparingly.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

DEATH OF THREE MITCHELLS PLAIN LEARNERS

(Draft Resolution)

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes with shock the killing of three Mitchells Plain matric learners in a car accident at Strandfontein, Cape Town, during the weekend;

further notes that at 6am on Saturday, Mondale High School matric candidates Kelly Ford, Leigh-Anne Swail and Keenan Smith, all 18 years old, died when the car in which they were travelling collided with a Golden Arrow bus in Spine Road;

also notes that the driver of the car and the only survivor of the accident, Nazan Klaasen, is recovering in Groote Schuur Hospital and is expected to have surgery;

regrets the loss of young learners just at the end of the final matric exams; and

takes this opportunity to convey sincere condolences to the parents, families and friends of the three learners during this difficult time.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

WATER CRISIS IN MOPANI DISTRICT MUNICIPALITY IN LIMPOPO

(Draft Resolution

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes that the water crisis in Limpopo, more specifically the Mopani District Municipality, will be something of the past come the end of December 2013;

further notes that the laying of pipes from the Nandoni to the Nsami Dam stopped in November 2011 due to ongoing litigation and court cases between the Mopani District Municipality and its unsuccessful bidder for the tender;

also notes with joy that the judgement was concluded and passed on August 2012;

further notes that the project resumed in September 2012; and

finally notes that the possible completion of the project will occur in December 2013.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

DEMOLITION OF HOUSES IN LENASIA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes reports that an agreement has been reached by the South African Human Rights Commission and the Gauteng provincial government in the South Gauteng High Court last Friday to stop the further demolition of illegal structures in Lenasia;

further notes that the provincial Department of Local Government and Housing has demolished houses that were illegally built on state-owned land after it had warned residents not to build on that particular land, which had been earmarked for government houses, after following legal process;
also notes that this warning was allegedly ignored; and

takes this opportunity to welcome the agreement, which seeks to solve the apparent dispute between the residents of Lenasia and the provincial department; and

calls on the provincial government to launch a comprehensive investigation into the alleged illegal sale of government land and to ensure that all those involved in such unlawful and corrupt activities are brought to book.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

COMMENCEMENT OF PUBLIC HEARINGS ON MINIMUM WAGES FOR FARM WORKERS

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes that public hearings by the Department of Labour to review minimum wages for the farming industry have started in the Western Cape following the recent protest action by farm workers;

further notes that protest action has caused damages of approximately R 400 million in production losses and damage to vineyards and farming equipment;

also notes that the first of several hearings that are aimed at determining minimum wages and conditions of employment of farm workers were held in Worcester;

also notes that further hearings will be held in all nine provinces;

takes this opportunity to express its support for this process that was initiated by the Department; and

calls on all role-players and affected parties to support the Department in its efforts and to co-operate in seeking a solution to this challenge.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONGRATULATIONS TO AND SUPPORT FOR SOUTH AFRICAN CRICKET TEAM

(Draft Resolution)

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

congratulates the Protea Cricket Team on their draw and gutsy performance in the match against the Australians in the second test at Adelaide;

commends the team for showing that South Africans can fight with determination and stand their man and their ground, whether on the cricket field, a sports field or wherever; and

wishes the team strength and the best of luck for the final Test in Perth which starts on Thursday and assures them of our best support.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

DEATH OF YOUNG WOMAN IN PAARL

(Draft Resolution)

Mr B A MNGUNI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

notes with shock the death of a young woman, Kelly-Ann Groeneveld, aged 23, who burnt to death in a freak accident in Paarl, Western Cape, last week when her clothes caught fire;

further notes that her car ran out of petrol after she had dropped her mother off at work last Monday;

further notes that her father brought some petrol and when they poured the petrol into the petrol tank, some petrol leaked on her clothes;

further notes that on her way home, she stopped at a friend’s house and when she lit a cigarette her clothes caught alight;

also notes that she was taken to hospital, but that she died of third degree burns that same night; and

takes this opportunity to convey sincere condolences to the parents, family and friends of this young and promising woman during this difficult time.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONGRATULATIONS TO DA ON SUCCESSFUL FEDERAL CONGRESS

(Draft Resolution)

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates the DA on a very successful Federal Congress 2012;

(2) further notes that the congress was one of the best ever held, planned and executed in a world-class style;

(3) congratulates Premier Helen Zille on being re-elected uncontested as the leader of the DA;

(4) also notes that, with her re-election, it is clear that the DA is a party of merit;

(5) further notes that all its members had confidence in re-electing Helen Zille as the DA leader and do not choose their leaders because of their race, colour or creed; and

(6) congratulates, once again, the DA’s Federal Leadership, namely Dr Wilmot James, Federal Chairperson, and Musi Maimane, Anchen Dreyer and Makashule Gana as Deputy Chairpersons.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order, order, hon members! In the light of the fact that there is an objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! The motion without notice will become notice of a motion.

FAILURE TO DELIVER ON HOUSING

(Draft Resolution)

Mr V M MANZINI: Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with appreciation that Mpumalanga Premier, David Mabuza sacked the HOD of the Human Settlement Department , David Dube, who failed to deliver on housing;

(2) further notes that the department has built only 3900 houses throughout the province out of a target of 10980;

(3) also notes that this figure includes those carried over from the previous financial year;

(4) further notes that in terms of the budget spending, the department is currently standing at 53%;

(5) also notes that the department is expected to have spent at least 68% by the end of November; and

(6) recognises that the Premier has lambasted the management of the department for failing in its duties.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In the light of the fact that there is an objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

HOSTING OF 55TH ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL MATHEMATICS OLYMPIAD UNCERTAIN

(Draft Resolution)

Mr T MAKUNYANE: I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

notes that South Africa is nominated to host the 55th annual International Mathematics Olympiad for high school learners with at least 100 participating countries;

further notes that it may have to withdraw as host due to a lack of funds;

also notes that South Africa, a regular participant in the Olympiad, has won various medals in the past, including gold, is the only country on the continent to be given the opportunity to host the event;

acknowledges that the recent Global Competitive Index of the World Economic Forum ranked South Africa very low in terms of maths and science education;

further notes that South Africa’s withdrawal to host this high-profile event will therefore be a major set-back, not only for talented learners to compete against the best in the world but to bring mathematics into the public eye and to highlight the importance of maths education in South Africa’s economic and technological development; and

takes this opportunity to call on the government to intervene and to ensure that South Africa does not lose this important opportunity.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONDITIONS AT HELDERBERG HOSPITAL IN SOMERSET-WEST

(Draft Resolution)

Ms M G BOROTO: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with concern the unacceptable and shocking state of affairs at Helderberg Hospital in Somerset-West in the Western Cape;

(2) further notes that patients who are critically ill sleep on benches or on the floor due to a shortage of beds;

(3) also notes that recently a patient who had a heart attack spent more than 48 hours on a plastic chair in the hospital’s trauma unit;

(4) further notes that eventually the patient had to sleep in his car because the hospital floor was too cold and too uncomfortable;

(5) takes this opportunity to acknowledge the fact that the hospital staff is clearly frustrated and concerned about this state of affairs but that they are not in a position to provide answers to the shortcomings and problems; and

(6) calls on the Western Cape government and the MEC for Health to intervene as a matter of urgency and to ensure that appropriate measures are implemented to restore proper health care services at the hospital

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In the light of the fact that there is an objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, the 2012 taxation proposals support a sustainable fiscal framework over the medium term, while facilitating economic growth, and creating a more competitive economy. In meeting South Africa’s developmental challenges, sufficient revenue is required to fund key expenditure priorities, while ensuring that public debt and debts services costs are contained, and avoid overburdening taxpayers.

Reforms will improve the fairness of the tax system, ensuring that income from capital is taxed more appropriately. While noting these innovative ways to increase country’s revenue, necessary steps should be taken to ensure efficiency in government expenditure and rooting out corruption within the public sector. Tax relief is also provided for small business, and household savings are encouraged in South Africa.

As a result of the 2012 budget tax proposals, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, B34 of 2012, provides amendments to the current tax laws. The Bill provides for the new provisions, effects technical corrections, and amends and repeals certain provisions in line with the new tax proposals. This Bill focuses broadly on administration of one-stop border post, a dividends-withholding tax refund, provisional tax estimates, provisional tax penalties, biannual filing of micro businesses, regulation of tax practitioners, recognition of a controlling body, and tax clearance certificates.

Chairperson, I am sure you’ll know that the tax clearance certificate is a big problem for service providers. Sometimes it actually blocks service providers from doing their work because of the need to submit, and the difficulty in obtaining the tax clearance certificate.

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, B34 of 2012, referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 77 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill without amendments. We therefore present it to the House for adoption. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

TAX ADMINISTRATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr T E CHAANE: Chair, South Africa concluded a bilateral agreement with Mozambique in September 2007. During 2012-13 the South African Revenue Service will increase its focus on cross-border corporations. In addition, several other administrative areas will receive attention. The 2012 Budget made several tax proposals with administrative implications.

The Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill aims to preserve revenue by closing tax avoidance and to assist business by removing tax anomalies that hinder transition without significant tax revenue implications. The Bill inserts provision for application of the Tax Administration Act of 2011, amending the State Duty Act of 1955, the Income Tax of 1962, the Customs and Excise Act of 1964, Value Added Tax of 1991 and other legislation outlined in the Bill.

These amendments make provision for technical corrections and new provisions in line with tax proposals tabled by the Minister of Finance. The Bill incorporates the common administrative elements of the current tax law in one piece of legislation and makes further improvements in administrative areas.

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill, B 35B of 2012, referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill without amendments. We therefore table the Bill for adoption by this House. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

GETTING TO ZERO: GETTING TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE ZERO HIV INFECTIONS

(Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I would like to thank members of the NCOP for this opportunity, and in case I do not have a lot of time at the end, I want to wish all of you a great festive season with your families and indeed ensure that we all play it safe in terms of ensuring that we do not get involved in road accidents. We should drive safely, but above all, in line with the theme of the World Aids Day, play it safe overall.

The World Aids Day has been commemorated globally since 1988 in terms of the World Health Organisation’s resolution that called on all countries to host the event on 1 December. This year, as I have already alluded to, for South Africa, we have adopted the theme: A re dlale [let’s play] safe against HIV for zero HIV and Tuberculosis, TB, infections.

This will be the 24th World Aids Day event. The theme focuses on using sports as an advocacy platform to drive the message of HIV and TB ahead of the 2013 Africa Cup of Nations, Afcon, soccer tournament. World Aids Day 2012 represents an exciting opportunity to leverage on the positive achievements and the energy and momentum of Afcon 2013.

Whilst provincial events will be held in each province, the national event will be held at Olien Park Rugby stadium in Tlokwe Local Municipality, North West Province. We hope by then they will have sorted out the challenges that the municipality has had with its mayor. In addition, the Deputy President will address the final of the Telkom Knockout on HIV and Aids, which will be held on Saturday 1 December 2012, and it will be televised nationally.

The key message for World Aids Day will focus on the achievements to date and the need to consolidate and extend our interventions of accelerating towards an Aids-free generation. The specific messages for this World Aids Day event, which are in line with the national strategic plan adopted last year, are: know your HIV and TB status; use a condom every time you have sex; medical male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection; zero tolerance for gender-based violence; if you are HIV-positive, screen for TB as well; if you are having a TB, test for HIV; if you and your partner plan to have a baby, test for HIV; and you can avoid unintended pregnancy and HIV by using contraception and condoms.

Members, we look forward to each one of the 51 million South Africans promoting these messages. World Aids Day is intended to regalvanise the South African community and get everyone recommitted to act in a manner that moves towards the strategic goals of the national HIV plan. These, indeed, are to: reduce the number of new infections by half; ensure that at least 80% of people eligible for HIV treatment receive it; reduce the number of new TB infections and deaths from TB by half; ensure that the rights of people living with HIV are protected; and to reduce the stigma related to HIV by half.

Last week the United Nations’ Aids programme released the 2012 Global Aids report. The report outlines our successes and continued challenges. As South Africans we must celebrate that the world salutes us because South Africa is among the countries in which the HIV incidents – that is new infection rates amongst adults - have decreased by a margin of between 26% and 49%. This is due to a number of factors which include people testing; utilisation of antiretroviral drugs; using condoms; and indeed going for counselling.

South Africa is amongst the countries which are recognised by the world as having shown reduction in the percentage of people dying of Aids-related causes between 2005 and 2011. This decrease of between 25% and 49% is largely as a result of the significant number of people on antiretroviral treatment, which is around two million people at present.

South Africa is also recognised as one of those countries in which the percentage decrease in children who were newly infected between 2009 and 2011 ranged between 40% and 59%. This is as a result of the decrease in the mother-to-child transmission rate from 8% in 2008 to 3,5% in 2010 and indeed, to 2,7% last year in 2011. In this instance we also want to commend KwaZulu-Natal for having really made a significant improvement in this regard, acknowledging that it does bear the heaviest burden of the scourge.

Just in the past financial year, over 600 000 new patients were put on antiretroviral treatment; and 9,6 million people underwent HIV testing, bringing this to a cumulative total of 20,2 million South Africans having tested since the President launched the HIV Counselling and Testing, HCT, campaign in 2010. Over six million female condoms and 397 million male condoms were distributed, and 300 000 medical male circumcisions were performed. With TB coinfection, with HIV being so high, the TB defaulter rate has decreased to 6,8%, thus helping to prolong the quality of life and minimising the impact of HIV and Aids.

Hon Chair and the House, with the leadership of the Deputy President and SA National Aids Council, Sanac, as South Africans we are much closer than before to achieving zero infection of HIV; zero deaths due to HIV, and zero transmission of mother-to-child HIV.

However, challenges continue which we need to focus on going forward. We will use this World Aids Day 2012 to recommit ourselves to strengthening the use and distribution of male and female condoms; increasing medical male circumcisions; ensuring that everyone tests for HIV and screens for TB; initiating eligible patients early on antiretroviral treatment; and ensuring adherence to treatment. HIV is indeed a chronic disease. We need to complete the TB treatment.

We also need to work together to reduce the high levels of abuse, including sexual abuse and rape of children and women, as we focus on 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children. We must continue – this is one of the key success factors that made us achieve this phenomenal results that the world is congratulating us on – with intergovernmental collaboration and a multisectoral approach. We must ensure that every leader in our society, government, business, civil society, labour movement, faith-based sector and everywhere else becomes a leader against HIV/Aids as well as TB.

We also call on this House to work with us to send a message that South Africa cannot tolerate the current high levels of teenage pregnancy, particularly amongst our learners. There is a need to ensure that we promote family planning and complement it with condom distribution – what we call double protection.

Hon Chair, we stand here as the Ministry of Health, on behalf of the people of South Africa, to say thank you to all those that have made us come closer to achieving an HIV/Aids-free society. Indeed, as we have done with our fight against colonialism and apartheid, we can combat HIV/Aids and TB successfully in our country. As we have done by believing in ourselves and hosting a very successful 2010 Fifa World Cup, we can indeed be proud of a generation that lives for future generations and an HIV/Aids-free society. In mobilising more than 20 million South Africans to come forward and respond to the call of government to test and know their status, we are even closer to making sure that we can have a world free of HIV, Aids and TB.

Statistics SA has released recent results which show that South Africans’ life expectancy has increased, both males and females, by two years. This is the contribution that all of us have made to social as well as economic development, as our workforce is now able to live longer, be more productive and bring prosperity to our country.

With these few words, I want to thank you and call upon you to continue fighting HIV/Aids and TB passionately until we achieve our goals. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms B V MNCUBE: Hon House Chair, hon Chief Whip, hon Deputy Minister of Health, fellow permanent and special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, today this Council joins the rest of our people and the global community in marking World Aids Day. We take this opportunity to join the rest of the world in expressing our profound gratitude to the multitudes of the tireless servants among us who remain determined in our concerted efforts to overcome one of the greatest pandemics ever to afflict humankind.

For us, as a nation, World Aids Day bears different emotions and feelings. It is a day when we take a moment to pay tribute to millions of our people who have succumbed to this dreaded disease. It is also a day when we take great pride in the strides that our nation has made in expanding access to HIV and Aids treatment. It is for this reason that we rise with the utmost humility and pride to pay tribute to the selfless efforts of our committed health workers and the champions of our government who are determined to ensure that our nation achieves a zero HIV infection rate.

The HIV and Aids epidemic is not merely a health challenge, but a pandemic with profound social, cultural and economic consequences. It has ravaged communities and nations across the globe. The Joint United Nations Programme on HIV and Aids, also known as UNAids, estimates that a total of 34 million people have HIV worldwide and of these approximately 16,8 million are women and 3,4 million are less than 15 years old.

As the African continent, particularly the sub-Saharan Africa region, we have the highest proportion of communities that are completely ravaged by this pandemic. In 2010 an estimated 68%, or 22,9 million, of all HIV and Aids cases and 66% of all deaths, that is 1,2 million, occurred in this region. That means that about 5% of the adult population in the region is infected.

It was estimated that in South Africa about 5,6 million people were living with HIV and Aids in 2009; the highest number of people in any country. In the same year it was estimated that 310 000 South Africans died of Aids-related causes, reflecting the huge number of lives that the country has lost to Aids over the past three decades.

The impact of HIV and Aids on children has been vast and left households without parents. It has resulted in a soaring number of child-headed households who are left to fend for themselves. Between 1990 and 2001 the infant mortality rate increased significantly from 44% per 1 000 infants to 56,9% per 1 000 infants. The trend continued into the early 2000s when South Africa was one of the few countries in the world in which child and maternal mortality increased. Although infant mortality remains high in South Africa, indeed we take pride that it has declined steadily since 2003 to a mid-year estimated rate of 37,9% per 1 000 infants in 2011.

The National Antenatal Sentinel HIV and Syphilis Prevalence Survey, which was conducted in 2009, showed that around 30% of pregnant women in South Africa were HIV-positive, demonstrating the need for South Africa to deliver effective prevention of mother-to-child transmission, PMTCT, programmes.

After a severe criticism of the guidelines for PMTCT issued in 2008, in 2010, South Africa released new PMTCT guidelines, which were more in line with the World Health Organisation, WHO, recommendations. In South Africa’s guidelines, HIV-positive pregnant women are advised to start treatment if their CD4 count drops below 350, and all pregnant women who test HIV-positive shall begin receiving treatment at 14 weeks rather than in their last term of pregnancy. Moreover, HIV-positive women are advised to receive antiretroviral drugs post partum.

South Africa’s national strategic plan of 2007 to 2011 set a target to reach 95% of HIV-positive pregnant women with PMTCT prophylaxis by 2011. In 2010, coverage was estimated to be greater than 95% and a review of the national strategic plan found that in 2010 the rate of transmission from mother to child, MTCT, at six weeks after birth had been reduced to 3,5%. The latest national strategic plan aims to reduce MTCT to less than 2% at six weeks after birth, and less than 5% at 18 months by 2016.

About 1,3 million people are estimated to be living with HIV and Aids in Gauteng, accounting for about almost a quarter of people living with HIV and Aids in South Africa. Since Gauteng is second only to KwaZulu-Natal in terms of the number of people living with HIV and Aids in South Africa, the success or failure of the HIV response in Gauteng has a national impact.

We are truly a nation at work to ensure that we achieve a zero infection rate. Our government has championed a number of large-scale communication campaigns to raise awareness of HIV and Aids, as well as broader health related issues. A principal part of the HIV and Aids counselling and testing, HCT, campaign launched in April 2010 is to scale up awareness of HIV.

The government aims to bring about a general discussion of HIV and Aids throughout the country by using the media. Strategies include publicising the availability of free testing and counselling in health clinics through door-to-door campaigning and billboard messages, and using vox pops to highlight personal experiences and expel the myths and stigma of HIV. The government aims to cover 50% of the population with the campaign message.

Khomanani, meaning “caring together”, has been running since 2001 and is the Department of Health’s premier Aids awareness campaign. It used the mass media to broadcast its messages, including radio announcements and the use of situational sketches on television.

However, following allegations of financial discrepancies and the termination of government funding in March 2010, this campaign appears to have been significantly downgraded.

Soul City and Soul Buddyz are two multimedia campaigns – targeted at adults and children, respectively – that have a combined annual budget of R100 million and utilise broadcast, print and outdoor media to promote good sexual health and wellbeing. In 2011 research into the impact of the Soul City campaign found that it had a positive effect on the sexual behaviour of adults who had been exposed to the campaign message.

The LoveLife campaign has run since 1999 and uses a wide range of media directed mainly towards teens. It also runs youth centres, or y-centres, around the country, which provide sexual health information, clinical services and skills development. In 2005 the Global Fund to Fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria withdrew funding for LoveLife questioning its performance, accounting procedures and governance structure amongst other aspects.

A major survey in 2008 assessed how these campaigns were received by the population. Over four-fifths of South Africans had seen or heard at least one aspect of the four campaigns, up from less than three-quarters in 2005. Awareness messages were best received by 15 to 24-year-olds, which were the target audience of many of these campaigns, 90% of whom had experienced at least one of the campaigns. This declined with age with the result that just over 60% of those aged 50 and above had seen or heard at least one of the four campaign messages.

We take note that despite the improved reach of these awareness campaigns, accurate knowledge about HIV and Aids is still very poor and sometimes ignored. Of particular worry is the lack of knowledge regarding how to prevent sexual transmission of HIV. Across all age groups and sexes less than half of all people surveyed in several surveys knew of both the preventative effect of condoms and that having fewer sexual partners could reduce the risk of becoming infected.

Condom use in South Africa has increased, and the percentage of adults aged 15 to 49 who used a condom during their last sexual encounter increased from 31% in 2002 to 64,8% in 2008. Younger people show the highest rate of condom use, which bodes well for the future of prevention and could explain the decline in HIV prevalence and incidence among teenagers and younger adults.

The 2009 National Communication Survey on HIV and Aids also found that 15% of married men and women used a condom in their last sexual encounter, compared to 74% to 83% of men and 55% to 66% of women who had casual sex or one-night encounters, this identifying the need for prevention programmes to further target married couples.

In conclusion, in 2007, 256 million male condoms were distributed by the government, down from 376 million in 2006. Over 3,5 million female condoms were distributed in 2006 and 2007. Our government has taken note of the abuse of condoms, especially by girls. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): May I call on the hon Roopnarain to continue with the debate. I hope that I am pronouncing your surname correctly.

Ms U ROOPNARAIN: Hon Chairperson, it was the correct pronunciation. Hon members, I would like to... [Interjections.]

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: According to the list that I have, I’m the next person to debate.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon De Villiers, the list that I have here is the one that I’m following.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: It is okay, thank you. [Laughter.]

Ms U ROOPNARIAN: Hon members, I would like to dedicate my speech to all those who have passed away from HIV/Aids. Further, I salute all those who are infected and affected by the virus – those who live each day with courage, determination and the will to survive. Aids is a story often told by numbers. Globally, statistics are as follows: 40 million people are infected with HIV - nearly 4,5 million this year alone; there are 12 million Aids orphans in Africa, and 8 000 deaths and 6 000 new infections every single day. In some places, 90% of those with HIV do not even know that they have it.

The actuarial society of South Africa estimates that the number of children who had lost a mother or both parents to HIV/Aids by mid 2009 was about 150 000. Yet, the numbers also tell us that things are different now from what they were in 1999.

In 1999, when I delivered my first speech about HIV/Aids in the KwaZulu-Natal legislature, it was a speech about the silence, the shame and the sentence - the three Ss. Today, 13 years later, it is within a totally different context. There is openness, honesty and more positive sentiments.

The latest Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/Aids, Unaids, report shows that from 2009 to 2011, child infections in South Africa dropped by 49%. So, today’s debates are given a vigorous edge. Today we are able to debate and dialogue HIV/Aids with much more honesty and with a scientific rationale. We can talk about issues such as condoms, contraception and sexual health.

Today too many people to enumerate live openly with HIV – they speak on talk shows and on radios about their status. More importantly, the politics surrounding the issue of Aids is no longer toxic. We have at the forefront a good Minister who knows what he is doing. It is not a silent epidemic any more. The stigma still exists, but the response to the disease both by government and ordinary people is much more tolerant than 13 years ago. This does not mean that people with HIV do not frequently meet with discrimination and victimisation.

Yes, there are also many cases of secrecy and shame. But the bigger picture tells us that more and more people are coming forward to be tested.

As we debate this important topic we need to ask ourselves how we are going to move towards zero infections. We need leaders to be re-energised, to show political support and to ensure that we do the right thing; not just in words, not just symbolism, but in action. We should work with drug companies to reduce the costs of medication, especially antiretroviral drugs, ARVs, and work with the developing nations to help them build the health infrastructure that is necessary to get people treated.

This means more money into health infrastructure, medical equipment and proper training for nurses and doctors and sensitising them with regard to HIV/Aids. It also means the three Es: education, encouragement and empowering our people. We believe in a preventative action campaign. We need a renewed emphasis on nutrition. It is good enough to have the medication, but it’s sad when people don’t have access to nutrition and food and are dying because of starvation. This is inexcusable, especially in a country like ours where we have sufficient food supplies.

Nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and other organisations such as the Treatment Action Campaign have done sterling work and should be applauded for the work they are doing. While we do acknowledge that a lot has been done, a lot more needs to be done.

When President Barrack Obama visited South Africa he had this to say:

South Africa has come a long way in responding to the HIV epidemic, but it is still falling short of what is possible, and has lacked the progress that has been made by its neighbours and other countries of similar standing.

Hon members, Aids is a mirror that reflects how we think about society and how we judge people who are different from us. KwaZulu-Natal has had the most significant decrease. KwaZulu-Natal has also been at the epicentre of the HIV epidemic, having the highest number of people with HIV. It also has a quadruple burden of disease. In all its intricacies, it reveals the state of our societies; it exposes our dysfunction - from racial and gender prejudice to political inaction and homophobia; and it highlights the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor – those who can afford medicines and those who cannot. Better access means better chances of recovery, especially with opportunistic infections such as tuberculosis.

Every year we have a debate on World Aids Day and we begin to take stock not only of how much progress scientists have made, but also of the levels of discrimination against those who are infected with the virus. We have come a long way.

Our HIV programmes are not perfect, but we have come a long way. Drug shortages are there and there are things like tender fraud and unpaid suppliers, which negatively affect our HIV efforts. But finally, there is good leadership, and that is a starting point.

The Aids looking glass is showing a glimmer of hope; there is scientific optimism with scientists in KwaZulu-Natal working towards a vaccine. While South Africa continues to be the home of the largest number of people living with HIV, the testing campaign has been on a quiet good momentum. But the one problem that still seems to emerge is the issue of women. Where Aids affects women, what we need is the genuine response. Any intervention with regard to Aids requires the genuine response.

Research shows that six in ten people living with HIV are women. The power dynamics as well as the biological susceptibility of the female genital tract disadvantages women, thus increasing their vulnerability.

Thirteen years ago Aids was terrifying, deadly and spreading fast. Today we have a chance to end this epidemic once and for all. Many of you remember the early 80s. The terrible fear of a new plague, the isolation of those infected. Some would not even shake hands with a person living with HIV. Our fellow human beings suffered not only sickness but also discrimination, marginalisation, or worse, vilification. Looking back, there is so much we could have done differently. Looking ahead we can be so proud of our accomplishments.

From its birth, the campaign against HIV was much more than a battle against the disease. It was a cry for human rights; it was a call for gender equality; it was a fight to end discrimination based on sexual orientation; and it was a demand for the equal treatment of all our people.

Thirty years ago Aids threatened to destroy us. Today we move towards zero infection, zero stigmas, and zero Aids-related deaths. If we are to relegate Aids to the history books, we need to be bold. We need to face some sensitive issues, including the issues of prostitution, sugar daddies, teenage pregnancies, sex with children, migrant workers, and the list goes on. We must have programmes that target these groups. We must commit to accountability.

Also, we must ensure that our HIV responses promote the health, human rights, security and dignity of our women and girls. Finally, we must trigger a prevention revolution, harnessing the power of our youth and using technology to engage everyone and to send out positive messages. We need to move towards a preventative action campaign. If we take these five steps, we can stop Aids. We can end the fear. We can stop the suffering that Aids brings.

Hon members, prevention is critical. We have to cut the number of new infections by half by 2015. We have come a long way, but there is more to be done. This can best be summarised in the following:

After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb.

I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, Ministers, members of the NCOP and guests, I am not so sure if people fully understand that HIV infection is an illness that can destroy an entire family, race, community, country or the population of the world if we as humans don’t take the responsibility individually. Every person must say: “It begins with me,” in order to reach a zero HIV infection rate.

South Africa has a generalised epidemic of HIV. It is largely driven by sexual transmission. You know, 17,9% of adults lived with HIV/Aids in 2009, an estimated number of 5,63 million people, which includes 3,3 million women and 334 000 children.

According to the National Antenatal Sentinel HIV and Syphilis Prevalence Survey in South Africa 2010, Department of Health 2011, HIV prevalence in pregnant women is estimated at around 30%. This statistic is a huge concern and it costs South Africa billions to save the lives of these women and children. Government cannot, on its own, try to curb this danger and enemy. People, you and I, must contribute by taking the responsibility on our own shoulders.

The World Health Organisation ranks South Africa third highest in the world in terms of TB infections. One percent of South Africa’s population develops the TB disease every year, which is a steady increase from 148 164 in 2004 to 401 048 in 2008. The highest prevalence of latent TB infection is estimated to be amongst the group of 30-39-year-olds.

This is mostly in townships and informal settlements, which underscores that the TB disease is related to poverty. The province worst affected by TB is the Western Cape. HIV infected persons are mostly at risk to get ill with TB if not detected earlier or as soon as possible. Women between 15 and 24 years of age are four times more likely to have HIV than males of the same age group.

As stated previously, people living in poverty in townships and informal settlements are the most vulnerable. Therefore, the goals of redressing the injustice of the past, developing the economy to 8% growth, developing our education system to a higher quality and outcome, stopping corruption, maladministration and the deployment of incompetent persons into higher posts are very important in order to make a huge contribution to reach this noble goal of zero HIV infection.

Every person must know his or her HIV status and it must be checked regularly. The stigma of HIV must be stamped out.

Young people must commit themselves and understand that to have sex is holy and a serious matter. Therefore, the sexual debut must be delayed. More men must cherish the position of circumcision. Contraception and the use of condoms are not something you use so that you can have sex willy-nilly, but they are is there for responsible people to have children only when they can afford to supply them with the necessary resources they need to have a better life.

Geagte Voorsitter, om saam te werk sodat ’n zero infeksie persentasie van HIV bereik word is ’n baie goeie doelwit, maar ons moet sorg dat die omstandighede waarin ons mense lewe, die geleenthede tot die beskikking van ons mense, ekonomiese groei, opvoeding, persepsies teenoor mekaar en HIV en TB konstruktief verbeter en verander word.

Die DA se plan en doelwit is nie ’n doelwit wat nuut geskep is nie, dit is ’n doelwit wat al so oud is soos die mensdom self. Ek verwys na die R2D2-beginsel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Chair, to work together in order to achieve a zero HIV percentage rate is a very good goal, but we have to see to it that the circumstances in which our people live, the opportunities available to our people, economic growth, education, perceptions about each other and HIV and TB improve and change in a constructive manner.

The DA’s plan and goal is not a newly created goal; it is a goal which is as old as humankind itself. I refer to the R2D2 principle.]

Since 1994 the ANC had the opportunity to make use of these opportunities to redress, reconcile, make use of the diversity of South Africa - not only the population in race groups, but the diversity in its whole establishment - and lastly, to deliver on all these noble aims and objectives. Due to the problem of people who want to build their own kingdom and ego and the leadership of the ANC and its weakness to address this illness of obsession, the ANC has failed the nation.

The DA has tried its utmost best in various governments. People voted them in to follow precisely this goal, and we are succeeding. What the DA is now doing in the provinces is actually the mandate of the ANC.

A zero HIV infection rate can only be reached if we focus ...

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it true that hon De Villiers wants to join the ANC? So, he wants to do it through the House. [Laughter.]

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Ek is so jammer dit is nie ’n direkte vraag nie. Dis net ’n stelling, maar kom laat ek eindig. [I am so sorry that it is not a direct question. It is only a statement, but let me conclude.]

Mr J J GUNDA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to ask the member whether he will take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): No, the question is directed to the member who is speaking. Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: I will take a question. It is my last sentence and then I will take the question.

Mr J J GUNDA: Will you be able to join the ANC?

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: I joined the DA in 2000, and I am not of the opinion that I will join the ANC.

A zero HIV infection rate can only be reached if we focus on this goal: United we stand, divided we fall. I thank you.

Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon House Chair, Deputy Minister, hon members from the provincial legislatures, especially hon Gamokgwase from the Free State province, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, World Aids Day gives us an opportunity as people of the country, from all walks of life, to recommit and dedicate ourselves to the campaign to fight HIV and Aids infection and to have zero infection rate in our lifetime. The aim of World Aids Day was to bring to the people’s attention the world-wide challenges and consequences of the epidemic in order to prevent the spread of HIV and improve the lives of people living with the virus.

The day was also a celebration of an achievement made in the fight against this disease, and the aim was to focus the world’s attention on current challenges. According to the Statistics SA, about 16,6% of the country’s adult population aged 15 to 49 years was living with HIV in 2011; and an estimated 5,38 million people - including about 150 South African women of reproductive age - in 2011. Statistics SA once estimated that South Africa’s population was 50,6 million people, of whom 5,38 million were living with this disease. This amounted to 17% of the world’s population living with HIV, though the South African population constituted only 0,7% of the world’s population. Therefore 10% of the adult population was living with HIV in South Africa at that time.

According to the National Strategic Plan, NSP, for HIV AND Aids, ST and TB 2012 and 2016, the disease has impacted significantly on life expectancy, which is currently at 54,9 years for men and 59,1 years for women according to 2012 Statistics SA’s estimate. Though still low, this is an increase on the 2007 rate at the start of the previous NSP, which was 50,9 years for men and 54,9 years for women. This increase in life expectancy is due mainly to the impact of antiretroviral therapy.

Similarly, Statistics SA reported an improvement in the infant mortality rate and the under-five mortality rate. The infant mortality rate has improved from 45,1 per thousand live births in 2007 to 37,9 per thousand in 2011. Again, the under-five mortality rate has decreased from 67,8 per thousand to 54,3 per thousand. However, hon House Chair and hon members, this is no real cause for celebration. We must commit ourselves and loved ones to a zero infection rate unless we want to perish.

The department has also come with the NSP with a view to adopting a holistic approach to combating HIV and Aids infection. Therefore the primary objective of the NSP of 2007-2011 was to reduce the number of new HIV infections by 50%, and to reduce the impact of HIV on individuals, families, communities and society by expanding access to appropriate treatment, care and support to 80% of all people diagnosed with HIV.

The department had to ensure that the plan was implementable and that it addressed the issue of a holistic approach in combating HIV infection. It therefore came out with four pillars in order to satisfy this approach. Those pillars were the following: Firstly, prevention; the aim was to ensure that those who are HIV-negative remain HIV-negative, and to reduce the infection rate by 50%, especially in the age group of 15-24 years; secondly, treatment, care and medication - the primary aim of this pillar was to reduce the impact of HIV on individuals, families, communities and society by expanding access to appropriate treatment, care and support to 80% of all HIV-positive people and their families by 2011; thirdly, monitoring, research and surveillance. The 2007-2011 NSP has a number of indicators, but there was no distinction between those indicators that related to outcomes and those that related to progress. The NSP targets were not clearly defined and monitoring and evaluation was not well co-ordinated throughout the system. Monitoring, evaluation, and analysis capacity is lacking. This reduced the readability of data use for the budget and planning process. Women and legal rights - this last pillar was formulated under the visionary leadership of the ANC which has ensured that South Africa has a very progressive Constitution, laws and other resolutions that provide for the security of women’s rights, and protects individuals against discrimination. The aim is to provide the protection and promotion of women’s rights. This is an attempt to create benchmarks for compliance with human rights and to reduce the stigma attached to this disease.

In line with the NSP, the Department of Basic Education has come up with the Draft Integrated Strategy of HIV and Aids 2012 and 2016. The objectives of the draft plan in the department are to combat infection in a holistic manner amongst the youth. The ANC’s 52nd National Conference in 2007 identified health and education as key priorities of the ANC. The development of a roadmap for the reform of the health system as well as the 10-point plan from the health sector in 2008 provided strategic direction on how the resolutions of the 52nd National Conference were to be implemented.

The health sector 10-point plan was drafted as a priority in respect of HIV and Aids status, and it accelerated the implementation of the National Strategic Plan 2007 and 2011 in relation to HIV and Aids and sexually transmitted infection. There was also an increased focus on TB and other communicable diseases. All this indicates the seriousness with which the ANC has committed itself in the fight towards a zero infection rate in the country.

In July 2011 the NEC Lekgotla identified health and poverty eradication as key priority areas for government action, and therefore resolved to double its action towards social development on the part of health and government at the provincial level. Other key decision-making activities that have been undertaken include initiating the HIV counselling and testing campaigns, resulting in more than 13,7 million people being tested for HIV and Aids between 2010 and 2011. In increasing the threshold for initiating ARVs in CD4 counts from 200 to 350, the government ensured that the population requiring treatment starts early before complications develop. There are currently 1,4 million people on ARVs in South Africa.

In conclusion, we, the ANC, support the effort to reduce the infection rate to zero in order to advance a better life for all South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T BOTHA (Western Cape): Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members, to work towards a zero new HIV infection rate by 2016 is indeed a challenge and a goal to strive towards. I want to use this opportunity to pay tribute to all those people in South Africa who died because of Aids, many of them unnecessarily. I also want to pay tribute to those who are currently infected and to say to them that their government is looking after them.

I also want to take this opportunity to do something which the members might find strange, and that is to congratulate the national Department of Health for the current policy and action regarding HIV and Aids in South Africa. It is a 360-degree turnaround from what we have experienced in the past. I believe that as a country we can be very proud of and grateful for what we are currently doing. [Applause.]

We are more than aware that the scourge of HIV and tuberculosis continues to have a negative impact on health and wellness in our province. It also continues to serve as a significant social and economic drag on the province’s development trajectory. We are pleased that a comprehensive strategy has been developed at the national level to address the structural, biomedical and human rights dimensions of these epidemics.

In developing the Western Cape Provincial Strategic Plan we have ensured full alignment with the national strategy, while at the same time responding to the very specific circumstances and needs that are particular to our own province. The Western Cape’s vision is guided by the understanding that government cannot, by itself, guarantee a better life for its people. Progress can only be realised as the product of partnerships between governments in our country, and between government, citizens, civil society and business. This applies, in a very significant way, to our efforts as a province to confront and overcome the mutually reinforcing epidemics of HIV and TB.

The plan cuts transversely across a number of provincial government departments: health, education, social development, justice, correctional services, community safety, agriculture, human settlements and transport. It also focuses on building strategic partnerships with the private sector and civil society in order to place people infected and affected by HIV, sexually transmitted diseases and TB at the centre of the health care system, and to treat them according to individual needs and circumstances.

Our strategy is therefore a multisectoral plan that requires joint understanding, effective dialogue and operational collaboration between all relevant stakeholders involved. There is no way that the objective of zero HIV infections can be achieved by one sector or one authority on its own. Each stakeholder has a role to play and specific responsibilities to meet in achieving this target. That is why we have adopted the slogan “Better Together” in our government - because we realise and we know that we cannot achieve it on our own. We did it in order to capture and convey our message to the people of the Western Cape that, as a government, we are fully geared towards working with all other relevant stakeholders to achieve the objectives of this plan.

As a province we are cognisant of the fact that approximately 80% of our health budget is being spent each year on diseases and injuries that could have been prevented if people had acted more responsibly. While our government recognises that structural impediments create vulnerabilities, we are also committed to challenging and encouraging individuals to take a greater degree of responsibility for their own health. Currently, the biggest burden that we have in our Department of Health is preventable diseases.

The Western Cape strategy is in full alignment with a shift to the prevention of disease and to creating a state of wellness in the province, rather than exclusively focusing on treating illness. Therefore, prevention is very important for us in terms of achieving wellness goals.

A major challenge is to address social, economic and behavioural drivers. What is required is a campaign focusing on the youth that will enable them to see the real possibilities of an Aids-free generation by 2016. In order to achieve this we need to address social issues with adverse health outcomes for the youth. It requires behavioural change that will call on young people to reduce the spread of HIV and turn the tide towards an Aids-free generation. We, as a government, have already contracted a professional team to help us with societal behavioural change issues.

It remains government’s role to address the needs of people living in informal settlements, as well as rural and hard-to-reach areas. There is the problem of migration and mobility, and a huge problem of alcohol and substance abuse. In the Western Cape we are targeting alcohol abuse on multiple levels. We do it through legislation to control the sale of alcohol and through the Safely Home programme, which is a campaign in our Department of Transport, to name only two.

A lot of hard work lies ahead. Life orientation at schools is one of the most important interventions which we must achieve, where learners can receive education on sexual reproductive health. This is why we are again turning our focus on the roll-out of our health programme in schools in terms of our wellness programmes, in which we intend to give every single learner in this province the opportunity to have a health check-up once a year through our system.

The objective of zero infection by 2016 will require exemplary and effective leadership and governance. So, as politicians and leaders of government, we really need to ask ourselves and our colleagues whether our example is leveraging the required impact. Multiple, concurrent sexual partners and intergenerational sex are issues we have to face and address in our country. It is not part of the culture of any nation on the globe.

I would like to recognise the work done by those in the front line in the fight against HIV and Aids. I think now is the time for all in our country to partner and join hands in addressing this scourge, because I really believe that with the national policy and with provincial willingness, we can achieve it now.

Our government has adopted a strategic objective of wellness. With this wellness, we want to achieve the objective of giving every citizen in our province the opportunity to have a health check-up at least once a year. By doing that we want to ensure that we share information on healthy lifestyles and that we do early detection. Hopefully that will be a method of successful prevention. Each and every citizen of this province must have the opportunity to access quality health care and a quality health system. We call for a partnership with our citizens to take responsibility for their own health as well.

I also want to take this opportunity to mention that our mother-to-child transmission is now below 2% in the province. [Applause.] We are working towards 1%. With every life that we save we are making a significant change or contribution to our country.

Lastly, may I take this opportunity to thank you, as this institution, for the work you have done in our country. I wish you all a very festive season. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr S H PLAATJIE: Chairperson, globally, South Africa has the highest number of HIV infected individuals, with about 5,38 million people living with HIV/Aids. This number represents a quarter of the burden of HIV infection in sub-Saharan Africa. The National HIV/Aids and STI Strategic Plan 2007-2011 had two important goals: firstly, to reduce the HIV incidence rate by 50% and, secondly, to expand the access to antiretroviral, ARV, treatment to 80% of people who need it.

South Africa’s scale-up of ARV treatment is unmatched in the world, increasing from fewer than 35 000 people on ARV treatment in January 2005 to 871 914 people enrolled in the public sector programme by July 2009. The spread of HIV has been extremely rapid, and the impact of Aids on health and premature mortality has been extensive. It is estimated that by 2015 there will be 208 795 Aids-related deaths, and that accumulated Aids deaths will be at 3,3 million.

According to Census 2011, more children will lose both parents to Aids. This number will add to the three million children who were orphaned in the past 10 years. The results of the 2010 20th antenatal surveillance survey show an increase of HIV prevalence of about 41,5% in the 30-34 age group. This led to the deputy chairperson of South African National Aids Council, Sanac, Mr Mark Heywood, commenting that –

... the country is not doing well to prevent the new HIV infections. We are not getting on top of the HIV epidemic. At least, as far as prevention is concerned it shows that there are still very high numbers of new HIV infections.

This is not encouraging news at all for the Department of Health or for the country as a whole. The department will not achieve the objective of a long, healthy life for South Africans or the zero rate of HIV infections. The reason is simple, Chair. South Africa has a huge teenage pregnancy problem - one in three girls has had a baby by the age of 20. Sixteen per cent of the pregnant women under the age of 20 tested HIV positive. In 2011, KwaZulu-Natal alone recorded 17 000 teenage pregnancies. Barolong High School in North West added to the appalling statistics by reporting high numbers of pregnancies among learners between the ages of 14 and 18 years.

According to Prof Brian Guzzard, an expert adviser to the UK government on HIV, it is more important to deal with the cost of medicine and how to sustain the access to it, than to focus on the treatment outcomes. He went on to say, “Thinking of costs and using the appropriate drugs is more important than discussing when antiretroviral therapy should be initiated.” I concur with Prof Guzzard.

In conclusion, Chair, gender-based violence is a huge barrier to achieving a zero rate of HIV infections. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, is it parliamentary for an hon member to read in the newspaper that Zuma does it with a song? [Laughter.] No, I am serious, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, with your ill discipline, sit down. Sit down, please.

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy Minister, my colleagues and guests, indeed, to have this very important debate on moving towards a zero HIV infection rate in this country is of utmost importance. I would just like to say, House Chair, that this is an epidemic that not only destroys lives but will destroy our nation if we don’t act seriously. Thank you for the work well done so far, for the plans that have been put in place. Chair, statistics tell us that, yes, it is working, but how far are we from being efficient and effective?

I would like to quote the words of a man by the name of John Homer Miller, who said, “Your living is determined not so much by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life.” Indeed, we need to change our attitude towards the people living with HIV/Aids and towards our young people in this country. Indeed, as leaders, we need to set an example, once again. Hon Chair, it is so important for us to fight this epidemic that it is a matter of life and death for the future of this country.

It is unacceptable to have more than 5 million people in this country being affected by HIV/Aids. It is unacceptable. It comes down to one thing: it is our attitude that needs to be changed. It’s our attitude and our thinking that we need to change - that is very important. That is why I agree with those who said it is not time to judge, but it is time to work together.

Chair, let me say what Goethe said: “Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them to become what they are capable of being.” If we treat people the way in which we want to be treated in order to change their behaviour, we will be successful by changing one person at a time and by helping him or her to change their thinking and attitude towards this epidemic. I am telling you that we will do miracles in this country. Chair, I would like to say this: As Members of Parliament, we need to lead this campaign.

In conclusion, let me quote what Dan Reiland said: “How can you have charisma? Be more concerned about making others feel good about themselves than you are making them feel good about you.” I thank you. [Applause.]

Prince M M M ZULU: Chair, today’s debate is a very important debate in our land.

Okubalulekile kakhulu, Sihlalo, ukuthi inhloso yalolu suku iwukuthi singenza kanjani njengesizwe ukuze sibhekane nezinselelo zesifo sobhubhane lwengculazi.

Kukhona imizamo eyenziwe nguhulumeni ebhekene nezinhlelo ezikhona azibekile kodwa angeke uhulumeni aphumelele eyedwa ngaphandle kokuthi sisonke senze iqoqo sibambisane ukuze sikwazi ukwelulekana ngezindaba zeNgculazi.

Mhlonishwa Sekela Ngqongqoshe, leli gciwane laba endaweni embi kabi, la wonke umuntu athanda khona ukuyogcobhoza noma ngabe kuthiwani. Okusemqoka ukuthi bonke abantu abakhe kuleli lizwe kungaba abaholi bendabuko noma osombusazwe kufuneka sibambelele ndawonye sikwazi ukululeka izingane zethu. Nathi uqobo lwethu siyakudinga ukwelulekwa ngoba kukhona ukwethemba; ufike ugqoke elangeni lokuqala nelesibili bese kwakheka lelo themba lokuthi lo muntu uyaphila umsulwa; yilapho-ke sezisha khona.

Leli gciwane selenze izintandane eziningi kabi ezweni lethu. Kukhona izingane ezingenabani ezihlezi zodwa ezibheke amakhaya ngenxa yalesi sifo. Ngeke uhulumeni aphumelele eyedwa kungekho lapho esimsiza khona njengabantu. Thina njengeqembu leNkatha siyayibona yonke imizamo kahulumeni yokubhekana nalezi zinselelo zalesi sifo, kodwa sithi nsuku zonke bakithi - njengoba silapha eNdlini nabanye abangaphandle kwale Ndlu - kufuneka silwe nale mpi ngoba iyimpi embi, eyaba sendaweni embi nalapho sonke esithanda ukufinyelela khona. [Uhleko.] Ukuzibamba kwethu kufushane kulokhu mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe esingeke sikwazi ukuthi sikwenze ngaphandle kokuthi sibuyele emasikweni ethu – sizame nokusoma. Ukusoma kwakwenza umuntu aziphathe kahle, abe yindoda noma owesifazane oqotho.

Sibuye sibulawe yimpucuko yaseNtshonalanga. Izingane zethu sezixoxa nathi lezi zindaba ubone nje ukuthi awusakwazi ukuzilawula ukuthi zingacobhoza kusawoti ngoba usawoti umnandi. Ngakho-ke angazi ukuthi yizimo esingabhekana nazo kanjani lezi. Siyeke ukuklwebhana ngokwezombusazwe sibhekane ngqo nalezi zifo ezibulala isizwe. Sibe nezinhlelo ezibhekene ngqo nokuthi lolu bhubhane lwenziwa njani. Sengihlala phansi ngithi sonke asithandazeni ukuze singabe sisavakasha singagqokile. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Most importantly, Chairperson, the key objective of this day is to deliberate on how we, as a nation, are going to deal with the challenges with regard to the HIV/Aids pandemic.

Government has made some efforts concerning the programmes that were put in place, but the government cannot succeed alone. We must formulate a team and work together so that we can be in a position to advise and counsel each other regarding the HIV/Aids issues.

Hon Deputy Minister, this virus is in a very awkward place, where everybody likes to dip in no matter what. What is vital is that every citizen of this country, whether they are traditional leaders or politicians, must pull together and be able to advise and counsel our children. We also need to be advised and counselled because we become too trusting; you condomise on your first and second encounter and then you develop the trust that this person is well and clean. That’s where we lose it.

This virus has produced very many orphans in our country. There are orphaned children who live alone with the responsibility of taking care of their households because of this virus. Government will not succeed alone without any help from us as the community. We, the IFP, recognise the efforts made by government in dealing with the challenges of HIV/Aids, but we always say, compatriots – as we are here in this House - and those outside that we must combat this pandemic because it is a deadly disease, which is in a place where everybody likes to go. [Laughter.] There are few who abstain, hon Minister, and it is not feasible unless we go back to our roots – even try ukusoma [intercrural sex]. Ukusoma helped in grooming a man or woman to be faithful.

Another problem is that we are too westernised. Our children engage us in these matters and you see that you can no longer control them; you cannot tell them not to taste the forbidden fruit, because it is nice. So, I do not know how we can deal with these situations. We must stop fighting as political parties and deal with this pandemic head-on. We must have programmes that will directly combat this pandemic. In conclusion, let us all pray that we never ever engage in sexual intercourse without using condoms. [Applause.]]

Col F MABOA-BOLTMAN (Salga): Chairperson, Deputy Minister Mrs Ramokgopa, hon Ministers, hon MECs, hon members, I am shocked. [Interjections.] I hope I am audible. It is a great honour and privilege for us, as the SA Local Government Association, to be able to participate in the NCOP. I remember the day when we were baptised to become members, and it is always an honour to come and take part in Parliament’s debates.

We know that HIV/Aids is still one of the major factors that works against our best efforts to alleviate poverty and fast-track social and economic development. It is also becoming increasingly apparent that, through its profound impact on health and human resources, HIV/Aids has a real potential to undermine local government in all aspects.

Hon members, our dream of having a society that is free from poverty and inequality will never be realised if we do not work together to eradicate HIV/Aids as well as its accompanying ills such as tuberculosis, poverty, stigma and discrimination. The Deputy Minister said if you think that you have tuberculosis, get tested. If you feel that you have some strange actions or illnesses in your body, get tested.

Local government’s response to the HIV/Aids pandemic involves representation and participation in various structures, such as the alliance of mayors and municipal leaders’ initiatives on community action on Aids at local and regional level. We also participate, as we have an alliance where we talk, discuss and come up with solutions.

Participation at the national level involves the National Health Council as well as the SA National Aids Council. Furthermore, municipalities participate in provincial Aids councils and have developed their own Aids co-ordinating structures at local and district levels.

The SA Local Government Association has put in place a number of strategies and programmes to strengthen the response of local government to HIV/Aids, and that is within all aspects of local government functioning. Two key documents have been circulated widely within municipalities. Those documents are a framework on integrated local government response to HIV/Aids, which was published in 2007.

The second one is the Country Guideline on HIV/Aids for Local Government, which is aligned to the National Strategic Plan for HIV/Aids that was published in 2008. As the sphere of government that is closest to the people, local government is optimally placed to intervene. However, it is clear that local government alone, as other members said from this podium, will not be able to respond to all the existing challenges. All of us must join hands and talk about this on every occassion, every day and every minute.

An effective local government response, as stated in the Salga Country Guidelines on HIV/Aids, requires the creation of multisectoral teams at local level. Through this collaboration, local plans and service delivery can become more responsive to local needs and conditions. Partnership is therefore an important component for success. As we seek to mobilise communities and enhance the impact of local government in the fight against HIV/Aids, let us always bear in mind that gender inequality, as most of you indicated, and women’s low position in society are two of the principal drivers of HIV/Aids.

Therefore, in talking about the problems of HIV/Aids, we must also address those specific challenges that relegate women to a subordinate status and impede their empowerment.

If we, as local government, are to effectively address the feminisation of the HIV/Aids epidemic and gender-based violence; women must have a voice. Women must have equal representation in local government. In this context, women’s empowerment is not a nice-to-have right; it is critical to saving their lives and it is vital if we are to reach the goal of zero infection at all.

Local government has an important role to play in information gathering, monitoring and giving feedback. If we are to address gaps in the implementation process and to design appropriate services, we need an accurate picture of the existing reality. We need to know who is infected and who is affected. What is the number of people who are on antiretroviral therapy in their constituencies? How many orphaned children are there? How are the people living with HIV/Aids treated? Because at some point we tend to look away and we do not associate ourselves with them. How are women and girls being impacted by this? With such information, local communities are in a better position to discuss their needs with national authorities.

It is through talking about this disease, knowing how it occurs as members have indicated ...

... angazi-ke ngoba uBab’ uZulu uthe ihleli endaweni ebucayi kakhulu ... [... I don’t know because Mr Zulu said that it is in a very sensitive place ...]

... being aware of the grave threat it poses and knowing that its occurrence can be prevented and its spread controlled, that we stand the best chance to overcome it.

We need to overcome all forms of stigmatisation of those who tested HIV-positive or who are suffering from Aids. It is when we gossip about or turn away from those suffering from the disease that we prevent ourselves and others from having full knowledge about the sickness and its effects. The battle starts with awareness. Ignorance and being ill-informed are the greatest enemies in this battle.

In confronting HIV/Aids it is clear that political commitment and leadership, as one of you indicated, is widely regarded as the cornerstone of success in the fight against HIV/Aids. By enhancing our political support and commitment, local government can become a critical player in the fight against HIV/Aids. Sustainable impact can only be brought about if supported and driven by informed, effective and decisive leadership and when leaders lead well.

I would like to thank you for giving Salga this opportunity to share this information. We want to indicate that we are in support of the commemoration on 1 December every year, as the Deputy Minister has indicated.

In closing, I want to repeat the theme mentioned by the Deputy Minister, a re bapaleng [let’s play] safe. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, Dr Gwen Ramokgopa, hon Chief Whip, special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, it is indeed a great honour for me to take part in this very important debate which narrates our nation’s commitment to work tirelessly together with all sectors of our community to achieve a zero HIV infection rate.

HIV and Aids are everybody’s business. To hon De Villiers, through you Chairperson, let us stop politicising the issue of HIV and Aids. Let us just forget for a moment where we come from, think of those people who die because of Aids and forget our political affiliations. This debate also affords us an opportunity to pay homage to all the South Africans who have lost their lives due to this epidemic.

Today we take this opportunity to reassure our people that we remain steadfast in our commitment as the ANC government to put an end to this pandemic and ensure that those infected and affected receive the utmost support. As the ANC we take pride that this debate takes place when a few weeks ago the global community expressed appreciation of our national efforts to provide one of the most comprehensive HIV and Aids support systems and programmes in the world.

We are indeed humbled by the fact that our nation and government have worked tirelessly to increase awareness and education about the disease. We have rallied all our national resources to fight the stigma associated with infection and affection to mobilise resources and funding for reducing the prevalence rate. In our rural areas our communities still regard HIV and Aids as a very dirty disease. People do not want to accept it and would rather die than live with the disease for years to come because they do not want to face the communities they live in. This is because there is a stigma associated with the disease.

Amanye amakhosikazi ahleli emakhaya, awenzi nto. Alindele abayeni bawo babuye eKapa, eRhawutini naphi phi phi, bathi xa befike emakhaya bafumanise ukuba umntu uneNtsholongwane kaGawulayo kwaye naye unayo. Uye akhethe ukuba angazityi iipilisi ade afe, alindele umzuzu wokufa. Aboo mama ke kufuneka bafundiswe kwasithi bantu abavela eburhulumenteni. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Some women are housewives. They wait for their husbands to come back from Cape Town, Johannesburg and other places where they are employed. When their husbands come back they find out that they are HIV-positive so they also get infected. They tend not to take medication and ultimately they die. We, as government officials, have to educate those women.]

Since the Reconstruction and Development Plan of 1994, policies and strategies designed to create awareness about HIV and Aids have been put in place as part of combating the HIV and Aids disease. More importantly, as the ANC we have championed the fight against this disease and remain steadfast advocates of expanded health and education awareness programmes. We must also have a programme to track down people that are on ARVs and those that are HIV-positive so that we do not count them in Gauteng and count them again when they are in the Eastern Cape, because they will inflate the statistics and it will give a wrong impression of our country.

As the ANC we recognise that World Aids Day is not just about the disease, but is rather about standing in solidarity in the face of its debilitating challenges. That is why, today, we affirm our national commitment to continue to rally all sectors of our society to join our national path to achieve a zero infection rate. We remain humbled that, as a nation, we have demonstrated that when we work together we are able to do more.

Our messages to get our people to be tested are bearing fruit. Testing has become a major aspect of our society. An estimated 20 million people have been tested for HIV during the testing campaign. The UNAIDS global report on the global Aids epidemic also shared optimistic achievements in South Africa. It found that the incidence of HIV among 26 to 29-year-olds was decreasing, suggesting that our government’s efforts were paying off.

I am also standing here, humbly requesting all the members that are in this House to start testing programmes wherever they are, at least twice a year. In spite of these efforts the reality remains that more women than men are infected and affected by HIV and Aids. What is of greater concern is that women who live in poverty suffer a greater risk of contracting HIV and Aids and other sexually transmitted disease than any other category.

As part of reducing rates of infection among women and the youth, programmes designed specifically for school children have been rolled out in schools and tertiary education institutions across the country. The message of interventions of our government recognises the fact that the most vulnerable groups to HIV and Aids continue to be girls and women; hence the importance of a national campaign educating females along with boys, young men and older men about the dangers of unprotected sex.

The government’s prevention of mother-to-child transmission, also known as PMTCT, is recognised internationally and nationally as a critical intervention for reducing HIV. It literally involves testing the mother for HIV and educating and empowering her about how to care for her newborn infant if she is infected. In this way PMTCT can be used as a tool for reducing the incidents of HIV by virtually eliminating new HIV infections. Due to extensive campaigning and improvements in our health care system, the rate of mother-to-child transmissions dropped from 8% in 2008 to 2,7% just last year. That is why our public health facilities have to be strengthened to deal with women who come seeking assistance and who may not know their own HIV status; hence we have found that women are disproportionately affected by HIV and Aids. More importantly, the project of reducing HIV and Aids is a burden carried largely by the public sector with limited assistance from private medical groups, who, because of the commodification of health care provision, cater for wealthy segments.

We support the government’s adoption of an integrated strategy for HIV prevention which is the only way we can eventually get to zero levels of HIV infection in our country.

The ANC government’s roll-out of a comprehensive health care programme that improves the chances of survival of people living with the virus has been applauded as one of the most comprehensive in the world. One of the more prominent aspects of this plan is the provision of ARVs at all health facilities in line with the ANC’s 2007 resolution.

In my region all clinics provide ARVs. Today there is a community dialogue on HIV and Aids. In 2007, 256 million male condoms were distributed by government, from 376 million in 2006 and over 3,5 million female condoms in the 2006–07 financial year. Our government has taken note of the abuse of condoms, especially by girls who are using condoms to keep their school socks firm and boys using them to clean their CDs. [Interjections.] Despite the challenges that we are still facing, I am sure that many of us will say for sure that we are on the correct path towards achieving a zero infection rate and ensuring that those who are affected and infected by this disease remain part of our community and society at large. We hold a firm hope that one day all our national efforts to find a cure to this disease will come to fruition.

I also want to make a call to all males who do not want to use condoms, but have more than one partner, to start acting responsibly. We must start focusing on sex workers and have workshops and training and fight this epidemic together. They are a part of us; they are our sisters and brothers. We must find them. Lastly, for now we want to appeal to all our people to continue practising safe sex and to lead responsible sexual lives. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, hon members, I want to thank all members of the NCOP, various representatives from provinces, colleagues, members of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, who participated in this debate and all the political parties that participated in the debate.

I think there is consensus that South Africa has made significant progress; it is not only what the world sees but we also have experienced it. Many families have buried their loved ones, one after the other. Many children were orphaned and many people were sick. Teachers could not teach. Many health workers felt helpless in the face of the huge burden of disease and death that surrounded them.

We would recall that we had step-down facilities, we had to send the sick home so that they were cared for at home with drips until they faded away. That era is over and we are happy in South Africa that we work together across political parties and across sectors to ensure that that experience is history. Indeed, and irreversibly so, it must continue to be history. Hon members, colleagues, there is no time to be complacent. The burden of this epidemic is still high in our regions, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa. South Africa still carries the highest burden.

We must celebrate, but not for too long, because a lot of work still lies ahead of us. We are much closer to breakthroughs in terms of reducing the burden of this disease, and we must build on these successes that we have made. We must take pride in the fact that we have again made it as a nation, as a people and as a human race. We have begun to succeed in defeating a common enemy - all our actions counted.

We must recall the 1990s, when a few thought that they could reverse the path towards national reconciliation and democracy. Lo and behold, they were wrong. The path we had taken was irreversible. The same happened in 2008-09, when some countries in the world - I will not mention names - doubted our capacity as a nation to successfully host the World Cup.

Inspired by the Africa Cup of Nations, let us also say that our path towards zero infection in our country is irreversible in combating HIV/Aids. Whilst we agree that we could have acted much earlier, as some members have said, our achievements are unparalleled and we are saluted all over the world - not only for advancing our national interest, but also for the benefits that our common efforts have yielded over the years.

Our determination to improve access to antiretroviral treatment, ART, has forced drug companies to significantly reduce the cost of ARTs. Poorer nations are now able to afford and access treatment. In our country over R4 billion has been saved through these efforts. We have developed the research capacity in our country over this period, which includes microbicides and the search for a vaccine in collaboration with other scientists all over the world.

This yielded valuable knowledge, including the discovery of a unique feature of the HIV that enables infected people to make antibodies able to kill a wide range of strains of HIV. Indeed, this is a small but significant step towards an effective vaccine by the Centre for the Aids Programme of Research in South Africa, Caprisa, scientists.

The technology that we have introduced, including mobile health, diagnostics and therapeutic innovations, are available initiatives we can leverage to enhance interventions in the health sector in combating even other diseases and strengthening the health system. Indeed, the electronic patient management system is important in this regard to support patients throughout the country as they move from one province to the other. Mrs Rantho would acknowledge that.

As the Ministry we will in due course announce initiatives to take our health promotion and disease prevention initiatives to a higher level as we move towards the universal coverage of the National Health Insurance, NHI, system. We must also deal effectively with the quadruple burden of the disease as more and more of our people survive HIV/Aids.

We certainly look forward to South Africans embracing and being inspired by the experience of working together to combat HIV/Aids through the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, and other initiatives as we build a healthier nation.

We also want to encourage South Africans to know that there is still no cure for HIV. Prevention is still the best and only available cure in this regard. We now have a higher number of people who will be receiving medication as chronic patients, and we are integrating our efforts to manage chronic diseases. We know that people with HIV are also vulnerable to cancers and other diseases. We call on you to continue the message of playing it safe to prevent and combat HIV. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - FOLLOW-UP VISIT TO LIMPOPO IN TERMS OF SECTION 100(2)(C) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996 - 16 NOVEMBER 2012

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, on 5 December 2011 the South African Cabinet announced its intervention in the Limpopo Provincial Government in terms of section 100(1)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996; referring to the provincial departments, namely the Provincial Treasury, Education, Transport and Roads, Health and Public Works being put under the administration of the national executive.

The intervention required that the Heads of Departments surrender their Accounting Officer functions in terms of section 36 of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, regarding the operational affairs of the relevant departments. Section 100(2)(c) of the Constitution provides for the NCOP to review the intervention regularly and make recommendations to the national executive. Seeing that this intervention is being referred to the Select Committee on Finance, the review will be done quarterly, as the biannual review is not very effective.

The overall objective is good governance, sound financial management and effective service delivery. The main objectives of the follow-up visit that we undertook to Limpopo - which took place during the first week of October - was to: Review and measure progress made since our last visit in March 2012; enforcement and implementation of the PFMA, specifically sections 38(e) and (h), sections 39-40 and 81-86; dealing with unauthorised expenditure, contravention of the Act, budget control, responsibilities of HODs and Members of Executive Council, MECs, and financial misconduct, respectively; progress made regarding the development and implementation of the action plans; determine whether section 100 intervention is effective or should be extended or discontinued - in this case to be continued; and determine whether the administrators are transferring skills to avoid regression in terms of spending and performance.

The intervention went through different phases: First, destabilising of the finances of the province; then the diagnostic analysis and action plans; and now it is in the phase of recovery. It is very clear. It does not help to point fingers left, right and centre. We will have to come up with a solution, and that is part of the role of the NCOP. The delegation consisted of members of the Select Committees on Public Services, Education and Health in terms of Rule 105 of the NCOP rules.

The National Treasury reported that although the Limpopo Province had been technically bankrupt before the intervention, the province was technically solvent at the time of reporting – that is when we were there in October - with a positive cash position of R2,4 billion as at September 2012, as compared to an overdraft of just under R800 million at the same time in the previous year.

The National Treasury had implemented a sound cash management system. The province had accumulated unauthorised expenditure of R2,7 billion at the end of the 2010-11 financial year and had an outstanding R1,6 billion to address. Some of the challenges still faced by the province in general were highlighted as follows. Managing the current cash crises in the province required robust management of cash flow. The Provincial Treasury still needed to be strengthened to become functional.

As I stand here delivering this report to the Council there is still a vacancy for a head of department. I was in consultation with the province and the National Treasury this morning. The provincial departments used inappropriate organograms that were not aligned to their service delivery. The province needed financial restructuring that would create sustainable and credible budgeting in the long term. There was still a serious lack of capacity in infrastructure management within the provincial departments.

The province was lagging behind slightly in their spending at 39,7%. An overexpenditure of R427,6 million on personnel was projected in the province, with the Department of Health being the main contributor to this. An amount of R1,5 billion in unspent conditional grant funds was in the province’s bank account - on 30 September 2012!

One-and-a-half billion rand in the financial year that started on 1 April 2012 was not spent, in terms of the regulations of the National Treasury! This was supposed to be monitored closely and the money would be returned to the National Revenue Fund, NRF, if not spent effectively. The turnaround of finances should not be used as the only yardstick with regard to whether the intervention was successful or not.

There would also be a need to ascertain whether the underlying systemic problems were being addressed; whether the correct procurement systems were being embedded; and whether the Provincial Treasury was functioning as it should be. It is clear that it is not functioning as it should be. The Premier was assisting – we were told - with the filling of the vacant head of the department position, but it was not yet filled even this morning.

The Provincial Treasury was finalising the appointment of service providers to address the financial management gaps in departments. Appointments were expected to take place towards the latter part of October 2012. A concerted collaboration between the administrators would be required to implement good practices in the provincial administration. It is an issue of good communication.

The diagnosis by the intervention team had revealed weaknesses in the administrative system. The approach to recovery contained the following components – and that is where we are now, in the recovery phase: Stabilisation of the financial crisis; strategically refocusing the Provincial Treasury to its core business, and prioritising aspects of service delivery in departments such as Health and Education that are key for service delivery; aligning and integrating the recovery strategy with effective administrative processes, including enforced accountability; organisational change in aligning and integrating the strategy with an appropriate organisational structure and building capacity for optimum performance; strict and credible leadership was required – also mentioned in the findings of the Auditor-General for 2012; and stakeholder support in terms of managing expectations, conflicting needs and building confidence.

When we look at financial accountability with regard to conflict of interest, we find that 21 disciplinary cases were being investigated, as well as 14 cases related to fraud and corruption. Twelve officials were charged and were due to be suspended. A total of 38 criminal cases were opened with the law enforcement agencies, and in some cases the suspects were charged. This is also a report that was given last Wednesday, 21 November 2012 by Minister Jeff Radebe when they addressed us as the Ministerial Committee under the leadership of the Minister of Finance, who is heading this intervention.

From our engagements it is clear that there must be a better articulation of the recovery plan by the administrators to the provincial administration in Limpopo. We addressed that very seriously with the ministerial task team as well. Although the financial position of the province has stabilized, the operational sphere in the five departments had to be improved. We made the following recommendations or guidelines that the ministerial task team can use to assist them, because there are specific descriptions of how the NCOP should give direction to this intervention.

The interministerial task team should, as a matter of urgency, hold a meeting with the Executive Council to clarify the guidelines, roles and functions of functionaries during the intervention to ensure that proper accountability mechanisms are in place. The team should ensure that there are regular meetings between the administrators, HODs and MECs of the departments concerned. That is the articulation of the recovery plan.

They should provide space for effective oversight by relevant oversight bodies and also clarify the roles of administrators and MECs when departments that are under administration are called by the oversight committees in the legislature. The provincial legislature should increase its effectiveness in terms of oversight on these departments.

The administrators should also be working on the specified timeframes and the exit strategies that would sustain the departments after the intervention has been drafted. The administrators should ensure the sustainability of the remarkable progress made by the departments of Education, Health and Roads and Transport. Such progress should be translated into improved service delivery.

The administrators should assist the province to review an organisational structure for the Provincial Treasury that provides for appointments of the positions of senior managers in budgeting, performance monitoring, and infrastructure monitoring and risk management. National Treasury and the Department of Public Service Administration, DPSA, should jointly develop long-term capacity-building strategies for the province.

The National Treasury should urgently initiate legislation that would provide regulations on interventions in terms of section 100(3) of the Constitution, because this does not exist. Though there is stability in terms of finances in the province, the province should still sustain austerity measures in order to deal with the accumulated deficit over the years.

The administrators and the HODs of the Departments of Health and Education should develop plans to address the issue of bloated compensation of employees versus the high vacancy rates. The Limpopo Provincial Legislature should ensure effective oversight over the finances of the province by empowering its oversight committees.

The Department of Education should report timeously on the delivery of textbooks, workbooks and study guides on time at schools across the province, including rural areas, before the schools open in 2013. The administrator of Basic Education should assist the province to develop a long term strategy ... [Time expired.] The hon members can read the report in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATC. Thank you, hon House Chairperson. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Just a point of correction; Makhubela is an hon member, not “Mr M W”. He is an hon member just like any other member here in this House.

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, when I woke up in the morning on that particular day when the intervention was introduced in Limpopo, it was a shocking statement. Then we asked ourselves where the National Treasury was, because what happened there seemed as if it happened abruptly. When the Minister came there, he said it was at a stage of bankruptcy.

All this started in the new administration. We then sat down and checked everything. I discovered that the National Treasury was in a state of collapse. No management system was in place; supply chain management processes were not fully compliant with the relevant legal prescripts; and the budget system was not in place. Why did this happen when we have the National Treasury? Where was the monthly report that should have been sent to the National Treasury?

That province would have done very well. If the National Treasury had been in line with the books and everything else, they would have seen that Limpopo was going to be under administration and would not have rushed to implement the so called section 100(2). What would have happened had they not just implemented the abovementioned section? We have seen on TV that food was not supplied. Nothing was done. The national government was now causing chaos in the province. [Interjections.] Yes! It was just like that. When the administrators went there, they started assuming the status of premiers and that of the MECs. This is wrong. Now, where is their exit strategy? It is nonexistent. They must come and show us how long they are going to stay there. How much is the government paying for accommodation?

That is going to be fruitless expenditure. They must come up with a plan, showing us where they have started and where they will end. They are not going to stay there for ten years. I asked the Minister, the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, what they intended to do about the many cases they had to deal with and if they were going to be investigated for ten years. When are you going to implement this? No answer was given. But, on the whole, Free State and Gauteng had the same problem. Why was Limpopo targeted? We cannot allow this to happen. Government must try to be impartial. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Rule 32, please! Rule 32, please!

Mr R A LEES: Hon Chair, today the DA is the largest opposition party that this democracy has ever seen. More importantly, the DA is not only the biggest opposition party ever in the new South Africa; it is also a party of government in 28 municipalities and the Western Cape. Critically, where the DA governs, it delivers, including the delivery of 100% of textbooks to every school on time.

On the other hand, the ANC is in disarray and shrinking fast. Less than a week ago the ANC gave Tlokwe council to the DA. What a prime example of the ANC fighting itself and failing to deliver services to our people. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Order!

Mr A J NYAMBI: Madam House Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it true that you are bitter because you lost elections in the DA conference in Joburg?

Mr R A LEES: Madam House Chair, I did not agree to answer a question. I shall continue. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, you are not allowed to respond. Hon member, you must first request permission from the member at the podium whether you can ask a question or not.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Madam Chair, according to the order that the secretary read out and what we are hearing from Mr Lees, these are two things that do not speak to each other. Can he guide us as to exactly what he is talking about, because we are from Limpopo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): House Chair, is that a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chair, it’s a point of order in that the report ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, it’s a concern that you are not in order. You may continue.

Mr R A LEES: Madam House Chair, the disarray can be seen in Limpopo where, almost a year to the day after the intervention, in the provincial departments not only has service delivery not been restored, but the lack of a coherent plan with specific time frames, and clear terms of reference on the part of the ministerial task team has resulted in the departments that had been normally functional before the intervention now being negatively affected and falling into disarray as a result of the intervention. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, there is a point of order!

Mr M P JACOBS: House Chair, on a point of order: Is the hon member prepared to take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Can you take a question, hon member?

Mr R A LEES: No, I shan’t!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Can you take a question?

Mr R A LEES: I have responded. No, I shan’t, Madam Chair. The Department of Education, where court orders were required to force the delivery of textbooks, six months and more after the start of the year, has had three administrators appointed within eight months. What a farce!

The National Treasury has indicated that they have done a good job on the cash flow. Well, that was the easy part - just stop spending and the cash flow will come right. That was very good. But the problem is that service delivery remains in a chaotic state.

Why should the learners have any faith in Minister Motshekga’s ability to ensure that 100% of textbooks will be correctly delivered to each and every school by the day that schools start in January 2013? Even as we speak, when schools that she is in charge of are about to close for the year, not all books have yet been delivered to the schools. What an indictment on the intervention task team and on Minister Motshekga in particular!

Minister Motshekga told the committee that schools were only receiving 60% of their allocations. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, there is a point of order please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chairperson, on a point of order: I can’t remember South Africa having Minister Matshekge. Who is Minister Matshekge?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): It’s Minister Motshekga. You may continue, hon member.

Mr R A LEES: Minister Motshekga told the committee that schools were only receiving 60% of their allocations in terms of the norms and standards, and that is not going to improve in 2013. [Interjections.]

Is that all she can offer our poor and disadvantaged children in Limpopo? Surely our learners in Limpopo are more important than the Nkandla compound with its bunker and lavish enhancements? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member! Hon Lees, there is a point of order!

Mr M P JACOBS: Chairperson, on a point of order: There is no Minister Motshekge. It’s Minister Motshekga.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): It’s Motshekga. Yes, you may continue hon member. [Interjections.] He was correcting you.

Mr R A LEES: Madam, that was not a point of order! Surely, the learners in Limpopo are more important than the Nkandla compound with its bunker and lavish enhancements? The amount of R250 million could have gone a long way to sort out education for the desperate learners in Limpopo. Whilst there is general agreement that the law has been widely flouted in the administration of these Limpopo departments, there has apparently yet to be a single conviction - a whole year after the intervention. Minister Radebe only reported that hundreds of officials had been identified. Does he not know how many and that decisions are being taken on disciplinary and criminal measures against officials? [Interjections.]

UNgqongqoshe uRadebe, nami ngiyakwazi lokho. [Minister Radebe, I also know that.]

Surely, after a year and the involvement ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, there’s a point of order.

Mr G S MOKGORO: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I’m going to ask the speaker, hon Lees, a question, and it is a really relevant and honest question. Is he a South African? [Laughter.] I am asking for permission to ask him. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, you must first ask for the permission from me.

Mr G S MOKGORO: I am asking the Chair whether I can ask him a question. I am sorry.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, will you be able to answer a question?

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, I will happily answer the question, however, I shall answer it in isiZulu.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): He said he will answer in isiZulu.

Mr G S MOKGORO: My question, Chair ... [Interjections.]

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, we have already heard the question.

Mr G S MOKGORO: ... is whether the hon member is a real South African.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on a point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Van Lingen, please sit down!

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: No, Chairperson, on a point of order: No member in this House can ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, can you respond to the question? [Interjections.]

Mr R A LEES: Madam House Chair, I shall respond to the question ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Van Lingen, I didn’t recognise you, so sit down! Sit down, please! Hon Lees, are you able to answer the question?

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, I shall respond to the question as soon as you take the point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Which point of order do you want me to take?

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, I believe there is a member standing and I should have a seat here to sit down.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Lees, I’m the only one who is presiding here. I told the hon Van Lingen that I didn’t recognise her. [Interjections.] Hon Lees, are you able to respond to the question?

Mnu R A LEES: Sihlalo weNdlu, uyazi umbuzo onjena umbuzo omubi kabi. Uyazi inhliziyo iba buhlungu kanjani uma ubuzwa ukuthi ungumuntu waseNingizimu Afrika ngempela. Uwubuza kanjani umbuzo onjalo umhlonishwa? [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr R A LEES: Chairperson of the House, this is not a good question. My heart aches when you ask me whether I am a real South African. How can you ask me a question like that, hon member?]

USIHLALO (Nksz N W Magadla): Ima mhlonishwa Lees. Kuba ubuthe uza kuphendula ngesiZulu, uthi umbuzo: Ingaba wena ungowalapha eMzanzi Afrika kusini na. Impendulo yakho ifuna u-ewe okanye u-hayi kuba nguwe othe makabuze umbuzo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hold on, hon Lees. You said you were going to reply in isiZulu. The question is: Are you a South African or not? Your reply has to be yes, or no. You gave him the go-ahead to ask the question.]

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, I have now answered the question, may I proceed?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Okay, you may proceed now.

Mr R A LEES: Madam House Chair, surely a year after the involvement of anticorruption task team, the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and the Hawks at least some convictions could have been achieved. Are these officials who are being investigated still at work or are they sitting at home on full pay? It would not surprise me if the same officials were paid their performance bonuses whilst they are under investigation.

Astoundingly, when the Ministers who arrived to brief the committee last week, only the Minister of Finance had a properly prepared written report. The other Ministers gave vague verbal reports. No wonder there are few improvements to be seen even a year after intervention. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Mrs Van Lingen, I didn’t recognise you. Please sit down! [Interjections.]

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: House Chairperson, Rule 55 states that when a point of order is raised, the member addressing the Chair must stop speaking and sit down. Now, there is a member standing up and you, as the presiding officer, must recognise that person to put the point of order. Then you can say that is not a point of order. Thank you, House Chair. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Yes, hon member, you may continue.

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, Limpopo is just a symptom of the rot destroying the ANC, and if we don’t replace the ANC governments in other provinces with DA governments, there will be more and more provinces collapsing in the same way as Limpopo has done. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: Hon Chairperson and members, one member called hon Lees to order because he had deviated from the topic. Therefore allow me to respond to some of the things that he raised about the ANC. I want to refer to a poem by Comrade Mzwakhe, which says: Why Tricks Not Solutions. I thought hon Lees was part of the solution. Therefore ...

... ngizothi kuwe, bazibona zinamaphiko kanti azindizi zonke. Isibonel ... [... I am saying to you, there are people who pretend to be working but they are not. For example ...]

... a few days ago we were here in the Western Cape.

Ngifuna ukukhuluma ngesilungu ukuze ungizwe kahle. [I will speak English so that you can fully understand me.]

A few days ago we were here in the Western Cape, at the Department of Public Works, and when we asked them about the asset register, they didn’t have a clue, or papers. Here in the Western Cape where the DA governs, it’s worse than Limpopo. [Interjections.]

Lapho kubusa khona i-DA. [Where the DA governs.]

Again ...

... Baba u-Lees ... [... Mr Lees ...]

... for your information, here in the Western Cape ...

... izikole ezingama-26 zivaliwe ... [... 26 schools closed down.]

... where you rule without any consultation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande, there is another ... [Inaudible.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: Sekela Sihlalo, bathatha isikhathi sami laba! [Deputy Chairperson, they are wasting my time!]

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, is the hon member prepared to take a question? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): No, no, hon members!

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I am just asking whether the hon member is prepared to take a question.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, he should wait. We will talk after this debate. [Interjections.] Then again, this is a sign to show ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): After his presentation.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Outside, not here, after the presentation. [Laughter.] What is worrying ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, there is someone raising a point of order.

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, hon Tau brought to your attention the fact that the previous speaker was off the topic and the agenda. This speaker is also off the agenda. It is not about the Western Cape. [Interjections.] The topic or report is not about the Western Cape. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande, you may continue.

Mr M P SIBANDE: I will continue. He is also out of order because they leave him ... [Inaudible.] ... ANC. The very same ANC that made him who he is ...

... bese ekhuluma ... [... and then he talks ...]

... like this. Allow me to say ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, there’s a point of order. Hon Lees?

Mr R A LEES: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for a member at the podium to refer to another member as “him”, and to shake his finger at him? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, if that is the case I will withdraw it, but I will continue to discipline him. [Laughter.] Through you ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, it is unparliamentary.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Okay, I will withdraw it. I will hold my hands. [Laughter.] Through you, Chairperson, in this august House there are people who are daydreaming. They are dreaming on the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. [Interjections.] There are people who are suffering from verbal diarrhoea ... [Laughter.] ... and those people must be urgently admitted to Groote Schuur’s intensive care unit, ICU.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, there is a point of order. Hon member?

Mr T L MAKUNYANE: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary to speak about Kilimanjaro? Do we have Kilimanjaro in South Africa? Thank you. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: I will continue by making an example. Those people must be urgently admitted to the ICU of Groote Schuur Hospital, for foot and mouth disease. [Laughter.]

Public Works has a pivotal role to play in the reconstruction and development of spatial planning or ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon members, referring to Kilimanjaro is not unparliamentary. Hon members, you must use language that is parliamentary, please.

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, I just want to ask whether it is parliamentary to refer to diarrhoea ... [Laughter.] ... foot and mouth disease and ICUs. Are we talking about veterinary services here? Or is it a discussion on Limpopo province? Maybe it’s the same thing. Thanks, Chair. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): You may continue.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Public Works has a pivotal role to play in the reconstruction and development of spatial planning or the demilitarisation of the apartheid settlement-type system, whereby our people were allocated between mountains and surrounded by big rivers while access to those townships or villages was only via one entrance.

The intervention was hampered due to the weak working relationship between the intervention team, the department and the member of executive council, MEC, for public works. This is part of the challenge raised in a number of interactions. It relates to the roles and functions of the national intervention team, the department and the MEC that were not sufficiently prescribed prior to the intervention. In future these interlinking roles must be looked at, as they are stumbling blocks that hinder the work of both the intervention team and the provincial department.

To address this we have stated in our consolidated report that the Director-General of National Treasury and the province should urgently develop guidelines to clarify roles to avoid administrative uncertainty in the province and to ensure that proper accountability arrangements are in place. We heard claims from the Limpopo department that the national intervention caused the delay of projects and service delivery to people in the province. We are worried that these ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande, let’s take a point of order.

Mr J J GUNDA: Will the member be able to take a question now? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande?

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, this is not my leadership. My leadership is supposed to tell me whether I should take a question or not. [Interjections.]

Sizohlangana. [We will meet after this debate.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr M P SIBANDE: We are worried that these negative attitudes continue to exist towards the intervention. Rather than working towards solutions, a trend could develop where problems continue to exist and whereby in future the system may continue not delivering results.

The intervention delayed 40 projects, including libraries, hospitals and primary health care centres, resulting in various issues of noncompliance with the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, while it also led to noncompliance with respect to the submission of asset management plans. Of specific concern was the fact that the first team of officials from the national Department of Public Works left without producing their plans as they had promised and a new administrator had to be deployed. The provincial department, having previously received a qualified audit opinion, now received a disclaimer of audit opinion, just like the national Department of Public Works.

Allow me to correct something that was raised by hon Makhubela. It is a serious mistake. The hon Makhubela created a picture that it was this government that had done that. [Interjections.] He forgets that he worked in the previous government himself. We have inherited some of the things of the past. [Laughter.] That is why we are experiencing these problems.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, there’s a point of order. One of you must sit down. Hon Faber, will you please sit down?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Is it true that the hon member is commonly known as the black P W Botha because of his finger wagging? [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): You must ask permission! I want you to ask permission!

Mr M P SIBANDE: Madam, let me respond. It might ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Faber?

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would also like to make sure whether the hon ...

Mr M P SIBANDE: No, he is out of order!

Ngizomuphendula. [I will respond to him.]

Mr W F FABER: Madam Chair, may I continue?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Can you respond to the question?

Mr M P SIBANDE: Is it the first or the second one?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): It’s the second one. You have responded to the first one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chair, I would in actual fact suggest that, even before hon Sibande decides to respond or not, you order hon Sinclair to withdraw that remark, because it borders on the lines of racism in the House. [Interjections.] I think he must withdraw that question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sinclair, can you withdraw your statement?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I posed a question. I never said that the hon member was racist. I asked, “Is it true?” So it wasn’t that I had indicated that the member was racist. I posed a question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Can you withdraw it? That is why I told you that you must first ask for permission. Otherwise you should not have asked that question.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, you gave me permission to stand up and speak. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande, are you able to respond, because I am saying he must withdraw the question.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, allow me to respond through you. Some people forget that they worked for the security forces of the previous government. They knew what they were doing.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Okay, you have responded.

Mr W F FABER: Chair, I just want to get clarity, as I believe that the hon member is perhaps confused between the hon Makhubela and hon De Beer, because I think it was hon De Beer and not hon Makhubela who was in the NP. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Are you asking a question? Do you want permission now? [Laughter.]

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, it was on a point of clarity. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Through you, Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): You are confused.

Mr M P SIBANDE: ... allow me to go back to the DA. In Tlokwe municipality your leadership ...

... babanjwe intambo yebhulukwe langaphansi elidala futhi elidabukile. [... pretends as if they are perfect and yet they are sitting on scandals.]

It’s a short term! Let me clarify this. There is a system which we are using as the ANC that says you must give a fish in order to catch a fish. We are fishing you. It is finished. Your leadership won’t last in that area.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Yes, I will proceed. Turning to the department of roads and transport ... [Interjections.] ... it was found that the department had 25 unpaid invoices older than 30 days, to the value of R5,8 million.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I am really confused. I thought this was a debate ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Order! I am recognising this member first.

Mr W F FABER: The hon speaker is talking about fish and I’m not sure whether we are busy with people or fish. [Laughter.] I just want clarity on that. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Are you asking permission or not? You can’t just ask a question without permission. Hon Bloem?

Mr D V BLOEM: Chair, It looks as if we are busy with a circus in this House. I am very serious. Let us continue with the debate and allow the speaker to finish. There are a lot of other things that we must do. Please, Chair. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Boroto? Okay. Hon member, you may sit down.

Mr M P SIBANDE: The administrator and the head of department, HOD, of the department of roads and transport reported that good and commendable progress had been achieved, but it was also acknowledged that more work still needed to take place at Roads Agency Limpopo, Ral, and the Gateway Airports Authority Limited, Gaal. The challenges at the two agencies related to legislative, governance and human resources matters.

In terms of the turnaround implementation plan, roads and transport’s organogram had been reviewed. Similar exercises at Ral and Gaal are 40% completed, although the filling of key positions remains a challenge. The department has resolved the threat of overspending. However, proper planning to roll out infrastructure for the following year needs to start immediately.

Ral focused primarily on its operations, beginning with the legal framework that established the entity and its mandate of being responsible for the strategic planning of the provincial road system and the rehabilitation of the Limpopo provincial roads network. Some of the challenges raised that led to the intervention included: the overcommitment of the entity’s budget; the late approval of the annual performance plan; cash flow shortages; and long outstanding invoices.

In keeping with the principles of good financial management, accounting and good governance ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Sibande, there is a point of order.

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, I want to find out whether it is parliamentary for a member to refer to another member at the podium as a black mamba. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): I didn’t hear that. Hon member, proceed.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Gaal had appointed Ernst & Young to conduct a forensic investigative audit in 2011. The board of Gaal was dissolved before the forensic report could be presented, leading to the provincial fraud and corruption task team having to investigate possible fraud, as highlighted in the forensic report. The management of Gaal acknowledged that it suffered due to insufficient capacity and competencies. However, that did not, as alleged, amount to a total lack of capacity and competencies. Furthermore, the finance management unit was not dysfunctional, but there were gaps which were being addressed in conjunction with the department and the intervention team.

After engagements with the relevant roleplayers, the committee observed, inter alia, that there was a significant improvement in the department of roads and transport compared to the time that the committee visited it in March 2012. However, the presentation made by the management of Ral did not provide sufficient information on the affairs of the entity. There seems to be ambiguity on the department’s oversight role over the entity. It appears that the management of Ral had a tendency of overcomitting, despite knowing that there were insufficient funds, and that a total of R267 million worth of projects were awarded by Ral without following proper procedures.

Hon Chairperson, before I thank you I wanted to highlight to some of the people.

Mina ngingowakaGoje, ngingowakaMdlanyoka ...] [I am Goje, Mdlanyoka ... (Clan names)] [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Your time has expired. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Hon members, Rule 35 refers to Precedence of Presiding Officer. Whenever the officer presiding rises during a debate in the Council, a member addressing or seeking to address the Chair must sit down and allow the officer presiding to be heard without interruption. That is Rule 35.

Debate concluded.

Question put:

That the Report be adopted.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Heads of delegations will vote.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:08.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

MONDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 2012

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

(a) General Notice No 922, published in Government Gazette No 35862, dated 7 November 2012: General Explanatory note: Shorter payment period principles in terms of the Broad-Based Black Economic Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).

(b) Government Notice No R.929, published in Government Gazette No 35867, dated 16 November 2012: The Introduction of the Compulsory Specification for Pressurised Paraffin Appliances VC 9093 in terms of the National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications Act, 2008 (Act No 5 of 2008).

TUESDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2012

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1) Fertilizers and Feeds Bill, 2012, submitted by the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.

Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.

2. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 27 November 2012:

Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 34 – 2012] (National Assembly – sec 77).

Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill [B 35B – 2012] (National Assembly – sec 75).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON THE ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL [B32-2012] (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY- SECTION 77), DATED 27 NOVEMBER 2012

The Select Committee on Appropriations, having considered the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B32 – 2012], referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 77 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill without amendments.

Report to be considered.

2. REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON THE PROPOSED DIVISION OF REVENUE AND THE CONDITIONAL GRANT ALLOCATIONS TO PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL SPHERES OF GOVERNMENT AS CONTAINED IN THE 2012 MEDIUM TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT, DATED 27 NOVEMBER 2012

In compliance with Section 6 (10) of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009, the Select Committee on Appropriations, having considered the 2012 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement and having heard comments from stakeholders, reports as follows:

1. Introduction

The Minister of Finance (the Minister) tabled the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS) on 25 October 2012, outlining the budget priorities of government for the medium term estimates. The MTBPS was tabled together with the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill [B33 – 2012] and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B32 – 2012]. In terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act No 9 of 2009 (herein referred to as “the Act”), Committees on Appropriations are required to consider and report on the proposed division of revenue and conditional grant allocations to provinces and local government as contained in the MTBPS. The report of the Select Committee on Appropriations as per Section 6(10) of the Act must contain the following; as referred to it in terms of Section 6(8):

The spending priorities of national government for the next three years;
The proposed division of revenue between the different spheres of government and between arms of government within a sphere for the next three years; and
The proposed substantial adjustments to conditional grants to provinces and local government, if any.

2. Medium Term Spending Priorities

Government prioritises its resources in the following areas:

Job creation initiatives and realigning support to business to enhance employment opportunities;
Strengthening social development, specifically child welfare programmes and improve South African Social Services Agency infrastructure and systems;
Enhancing the quality of education (i.e. focus on improving numeracy and literacy) and skills development;
Improving the provision of quality health care;
Driving a more comprehensive rural development strategy; and
Intensifying the fight against crime and corruption.

In order for government to achieve these priorities, dedicated officials who will implement programmes within the required time-frames are required. The National Development Plan 2030 (NDP) places further emphasis on these priorities. A sustainable increase in employment will require a faster-growing economy and the removal of structural impediments (such as poor-quality education or spatial settlement patterns that exclude the majority in economic activities) which is essential to achieve higher rates of investment and competitiveness. The NDP draws extensively on the notion of capabilities.

3. The Proposed Division of Revenue

The proposed Division of Revenue 2013/14-2015/16 provides for government spending of R1.15 trillion in the 2013/14 financial year, R1.24 trillion in the 2014/15 financial year and reaches R1.34 trillion in the 2015/16 financial year. This maintains expenditure growth of about 8.2 per cent per year and limits expenditure to 30.7 per cent of Gross Domestic Product in the 2015/16 financial year. The proposed division of revenue further shows that the debt-service costs will rise from R88.8 billion in 2012/13 to R114.8 billion in the 2015/16 financial year. The proposed division of revenue allows for non-interest spending of R953 billion in the 2013/14 financial year, R1.03 trillion in the 2014/15 financial year and R1.12 trillion in the 2015/16 financial year. The budget framework allows for average real growth in non-interest spending of 3 per cent per year over the next three years. A contingency reserve of R4 billion in 2013/14, R10 billion in 2014/15 and R30 in 2015/16 billion will be retained in the proposed framework to allow for uncertainty in the outlook and provide for future policy priorities. Of the R30 billion left unallocated in the 2015/16 financial year, R6 billion will be a draw-down in the 2013 budget.

Over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), reprioritisation of funds by departments amounts to R40 billion. These funds will allow for the revision of budget baselines over the MTEF period. Priority will be given to infrastructure development and service delivery improvements, though draw-downs on the contingency reserve will also be used to fund the public sector wage settlement. Overall the proposed division of revenue allocates 47 per cent to national departments, 44 per cent to provinces and 9 per cent to local government over the MTEF period. Salary costs and infrastructure priorities are the main factors behind adjustments to the national share. The requirements of education and health, and the cost of the increase in the public sector wage bill, largely determine the provincial share of additional allocations, and infrastructure requirements are the main cause of the adjustments for municipalities. This means that allocations to the national sphere increases by 7.4 per cent per year over the 2013/14 MTEF period, provincial allocations increases by 7.1 per cent per year and local government allocations increases by 9.1 per cent per year.

4. Adjustments to conditional grants

Government provides provinces and municipalities with conditional grants to supplement the equitable shares for specific programmes.

4.1 Conditional grant allocations to provinces

The conditional grant allocation to provinces would be R82.7 billion in the 2013/14 financial year, R90.2 billion in the 2014/15 financial year and R99.1 billion in the 2015/16 financial year. Some changes to be effected on provincial conditional grants include the following:

Additional resources would be made available in the Further Education and Training Colleges Grant to cover the cost of the wage agreement;
The Comprehensive HIV and AIDS Grant would be allocated additional funds to compensate for the reduction in United States donor funding of HIV and AIDS prevention, care and treatment programmes. The number of personnel employed in provincial health departments will decrease after increasing by 50 000 over the past four years to 313 000;
In social development, savings of about R450 million per year had been identified as a result of the new grants administration contract. A portion of this would be reprioritised to improve the South African Social Security Agency’s infrastructure and systems, and to employ additional social workers. The number of social assistance beneficiaries is forecast to increase from R16.2 million in 2012/13 to R17.3 million over the next three years, with annual growth slowing to 2 per cent in the 2015//16 financial year. The 2013 Budget would provide for the recruitment of graduates from the social worker scholarship programme, which trains close to 5 000 students. Attention would also be given to supporting non-governmental organisations (NGOs) in social development and facilitating a more equitable funding model for these organisations;
Over the next three years, R7.2 billion would be re-allocated away from the Schools Infrastructure Backlogs Grant, due to under-spending, and towards increasing the Education Infrastructure Grant allocation and the Community Library Services Grant allocation to provinces and to support the construction of the new universities in Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape;
Funds would be added to the Human Settlements Development Grant for informal settlements upgrading;
More funds would be made available for further investment in provincial roads; and
The Devolution of Property Rates Fund Grant would be phased out as soon as grant conditions have been met.

4.2 Conditional grants allocated to local government sphere

The conditional grant allocation to the local sphere of government would be R34.3 billion in the 2013/14 financial year, R36.9 billion in the 2014/15 financial year and R40.4 billion in the 2015/16 financial year. The local government conditional grants are being reformed to provide targeted support to different types of municipalities. The human settlements and public transport functions are being devolved to urban municipalities and greater technical support will be provided to rural municipalities.

Over the medium term, funds will be made available to expand the Integrated National Electrification Programme. Reprioritised funds will also be used to improve the sustainability of municipal services by subsidising critical refurbishment projects and combating wastage of water and electricity.

The proposed structure of a new formula to allocate the local government equitable share has been endorsed by the Budget Forum. The formula will provide a subsidy for the provision of free basic water, electricity, sanitation and refuse removal services for every poor household. The formula will also provide for the institutional costs of municipalities and for the first time, will explicitly allocate funds for non-trading services, such as municipal roads and fire services in poor municipalities. The formula will use 2011 census data and therefore it could change the structure of conditional grants as of the 2014/15 financial year. The details of the new formula will be presented as part of the 2013 Division of Revenue Bill.

5. Observations

After having considered the proposed division of revenue and the conditional grant allocations to the provincial and local government spheres over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework as outlined in the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, the Committee observed the following:

5.1 Government’s spending plans continue to reflect social and economic development priorities - specifically education, health, social development, infrastructure development, crime-fighting and enhancing competitiveness. The Committee is however concerned with the levels of under-spending as well as negative audit opinions caused by irregular expenditure as well as wasteful and fruitless spending;

5.2 Government departments have reprioritised spending and identified savings of R40 billion, to improve value for money and ensure alignment with the National Development Plan. Priority will be given to infrastructure development and service-delivery improvements. The Committee is however concerned that what is regarded as savings, is actually under-spending and their reprioritisation might have unintended consequences such as opportunity costs and social costs to the communities concerned;

5.3 The baseline expenditure announced in the 2012 Budget will be revised by R40 billion due to reprioritisation and draw-down on the contingency reserve. What is however of concern to the Committee is that some of the reprioritised funds were due to under-spending;

5.4 Government will provide funds in support of HIV and AIDS programmes due to a reduction in the United States donor funding of HIV and AIDS prevention, care and treatment. There are no additional funds for the 2012/13 financial years which implies that any additional funding during the outer years of the MTEF might only be to augment the shortfalls created by the reduced donor funding;

5.5 Government has finalised the local government equitable share formula. The Committee will monitor how the revised equitable share formula addresses issues such as revenue collection capacities of municipalities as well as how the revised formula is reflected in indigent policies of municipalities; and

5.6 The human settlements and public transport functions would be devolved to urban municipalities and greater technical support for rural municipalities would be provided for the Integrated National Electrification Programme and to combat wastage of water and electricity.

6. Recommendation

The Select Committee on Appropriations, having considered the proposed division of revenue and the conditional grants allocations to the provincial and local government spheres over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework as outlined in the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, recommends that this Report be accepted by the House.

Report to be considered.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Social Services on the National Health Amendment Bill [B24B – 2011] (National Assembly – sec 76), dated 27 November 2012:

The Select Committee on Social Services, having considered the subject of the National Health Amendment Bill [B24B-2011] (National Assembly – sec 76), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B24C-2011]

Report to be considered

4. Report of the NCOP Ad Hoc Committee on the Protection of State Information Bill [B 6B - 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 27 November 2012:

The Ad Hoc Committee on the Protection of State Information Bill, having considered the subject of the Protection of State Information Bill [B 6B – 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, and classified by the JTM as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill with the following proposed amendments:

A: Proposed amendments:

Long title of the Bill

Long title page 2, after “of” to insert “sensitive state information; a system of classification, reclassification and declassification of state information; the protection of” and after “certain” to insert “valuable” and after “information” to omit “from” and substitute with “against”, and after “1982” to insert “(Act No. 84 of 1982);”

Preamble

Preamble page 2, after “Constitution;” to insert new line, “ACCEPTING that the right of access to information is a cornerstone of our democracy;”

Preamble page 2, after “ACKNOWLEDGING” to insert, “in accordance with section 36 of the Constitution”.

CONTENTS

On page 3, in line 10 amend heading by inserting “SYSTEM OF” before “CLASSIFICATION” and inserting after “CLASSIFICATION” to insert “, RECLASSIFICATION”.

CHAPTER 1

On page 5, line 19, in 1.(1)(a) under “classification of state information” to omit “12” and substitute with “10” and to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

On page 5, line 21, to omit “under” and substitute with “in terms of”.

On page 5, line 24, to omit “12(1)” and substitute with “10(1)”.

5. On page 5, after line 33 to insert new line, “Espionage” means the offences referred to in section 34 of this Act”.

On page 5, line 38, in 1.(1)(a) under “head of an organ of state” after (Proclamation No. 103 of 1994) to insert “or section 1 of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, 1994 (Act No. 40 of 1994)”.

On page 5, line 43, in 1.(1)(c) under “head of an organ of state” after “other” to insert “state”.

On page 6, line 63, to omit “54” and substitute with “51”.

On page 7, line 11, to omit “12(2)” and substitute with “10(2)”

On page 7, line 18, after “means” to insert “state”.

On page 7, line 30, to omit “12(3)” and substitute with “10(3)”.

On page 7, line 31, to omit “deny” and substitute with “infringe on the constitutional rights of” and after “individuals” to insert, “or deny them”.

On page 7, line 39, in clause 1(3), after the third “conflict” to insert, “taking into consideration the need to protect and classify certain state information in terms of this Act.”

On page 7, line 40, to omit clause 1(4).

On page 7, in line 40, insert new clause 1(4), “(4) For the purposes of this Act a person has knowledge of a fact if-

(a) the person has actual knowledge of that fact; or

(b) the court is satisfied that-

(i) the person believes that there is a reasonable possibility of the existence of that fact; and

(ii) he or she fails to obtain information to confirm the existence of that fact.”

On page 7, after line 40, and new clause 1(4), insert new clause 1(5), “(5) For the purposes of this Act a person ought reasonably to have known or suspected a fact if the conclusions that he or she ought to have reached, are those which would have been reached by a reasonably diligent and vigilant person having both-

(a) the general knowledge, skill, training and experience that may reasonably be expected of a person in his or her position; and

(b) the general knowledge, skill, training and experience that he or she in fact has.”

Application of Act

Clause 3

On page 8, line 11 move clause 3(1) to become new clause 3(3) and omit “disclosure”.
Reorder subsequent numbering omit clause (2) substitute with (1).

On page 8, line 14, in clause (a) insert after “to” the words “the cabinet”.
On page 8, line 16 in clause (b) insert after “gazette,” the words “after approval by parliament,” and after “manner” the words, “excluding all municipalities and all municipal entities,”.

On page 8 after line 18 insert new clause 3.(2):

“(2) In determining what constitutes “good cause” in subsection (2)(b) regard may be had to any one or more of the following factors:

The nature of the information handled by the organ of state, including its implications for national security, its impact on international relations and related confidences;
The need for protection of South African innovations; the desirability of the continued availability of information to members of the public;
The competence and ability of the officials on the organ of state to classify, reclassify and declassify the information in accordance with the Act; and
Whether the existing dispensation cannot protect the information.”

Clause 4

On page 8, from line 21 to line 23, to omit “clause 4”.

Clause 5

On page 8, from line 24 to line 30 to omit “clause 5”

Move clause 5(2) to end of clause 6 with amendments stipulated in new clause 4(3) below.

Clause 6

Reorder subsequent numbering, on page 8 line 32, to omit “6” and replace with “4.(1)”.

5. On page 8, in line 47, to omit “some confidentiality and secrecy” and substitute with “The protection and classification of certain state information”.

On page 9, after line 4, insert new section 4(1)(i)(ii):

“(ii) promote and support the functions and effectiveness of the Constitutional institutions supporting democracy; and”

On page 9 line 5 renumber section “6.(i)(ii)” to “4.(1)(i)(iii)”

On page 9, after line 11 insert new “clause 4.(2)”:

“4.(2) Certain State information may, in terms of this Act, be protected against unlawful disclosure, alteration, destruction or loss.”

On page 9, after line 11 and after new “clause 4(2)” insert new “clause 4(3)”

“(3) State information in material or documented form which requires protection against unlawful disclosure may be protected by way of classification and access to such information may be restricted to the Cabinet, institutions referred to in section 181 of the Constitution and certain individuals who carry a commensurate security clearance.”

Clause 7

On page 9 in line 15 to omit “(7)” and substitute with “(5)”.

On page 9, in line 15 after “establish” insert “:” and insert new clause 5.(1)(i):

“(i) policies, directives and categories for classifying, downgrading and declassifying state information;” and insert new clause 5.(1)(ii):

“(ii) conditions for the treatment and protection of classified information that is accessed by the institutions mentioned in section 181 of the Constitution in terms of 51(1) (m);” and insert new clause 5.(1)(iii):

“(iii) conditions for the protection against alteration, destruction or loss of State information created, acquired or received by that organ of State.”

On page 9 in line 21 to omit “54(4)” and substitute with “51(4)”.

On page 9, in line 23 to omit “54(4)” and substitute with “51(4)” and insert after 51(4) “and the Constitution.”

Chapter 5

On page 10, in line 2 insert “SYSTEM OF” before “CLASSIFICATION” and after “CLASSIFICATION” insert “,” after before “AND” insert “RECLASSIFICATION”.

On page 10, line 3 to omit “Part A”

On page 10, line 4 to omit “Classification”

On page 10, in line 5: Move clause 14 from page 11 lines 7 – 61 and insert on page 10 in line 5.

Amendments to clause 14 will be dealt with in “clause 14” below.

Clause 10

On page 10, in line 6 to omit “10” and replace with “9”.

On page 10, in line 15 to omit “12” and replace with “11”.

Clause 11

On page 10, in line 17 omit “11” and replace with “10”.

On page 10, in line 18 to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

On page 10, in line 26 to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

Clause 12

On page 10, in line 28 to omit “12” and substitute with “11”.

2. On page 10, in line 36 after “cause” to insert “irreparable or exceptionally grave harm”.

Clause 13

On page 10, in line 38 to omit “13” and substitute with “12”.

On page 10, in line 39 to omit “12” and substitute with “11 or other provisions of this Act.”

On page 10, in line 43 after “as” to insert “confidential,”.

On page 10, in line 49 after “Constitution” insert “, excluding ordinary members of the South African Police Services and the South African Defence Force except those,” and on page 10 in line 51 to omit “12” and substitute with “11.”

On page 11, line 1 after “Services” to insert “authorized in terms of section 12 (6) of this Act”.

Clause 14

On page 11 in line 7 after “classification” insert “, reclassification” and move new heading “Conditions for classification, reclassification and declassification” and clause 14 to page 10 line 5.

On page 11, in line 8 to omit “14” and substitute with “8. (1)

On page 11, in line 10 to omit “Secrecy” and substitute with “Classification of state information”.

On page 11, in line 12 to omit “an” and substitute with “breaches of the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, 2004 (Act No. 12 of 2004) or any other”.

On page 11, in line 21 to omit “12” and substitute with “11”.

On page 11, in line 29 to omit “openness” and substitute with “the right to access to state information” and after “against” to omit “secrecy” and substitute with “the need to classify state information in terms of this Act”.

On page 11, in line 39 to omit “may” and substitute with “must”.

On page 11, after line 56 to insert new clause (g):

“(g) cause demonstrable, irreparable or exceptionally grave harm to the national security of the Republic.”

Clause 15

On page 12, line 2 to omit “15” and substitute with “13”.

On page 12, in line 6 to omit “or” and substitute with “,”and after “Agency” to insert “or the relevant classifying organ of state”.

On page 12 in line 8 to omit “Part B”.

4. On page 12 in line 9 to omit “Declassification”.

Clause 16

On page 12 in line 11 to omit “16” and substitute with “14”.

Clause 17

On page 12 in line 24 to omit “17” and substitute with “15”.

On page 12 in line 28 to omit “12” and substitute with “11” and omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

Clause 18

On page 12 in line 33 to omit “18” and substitute with “16”
On page 12 in line 39 to omit “12” and substitute with “11”.

On page 12 in line 40 to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

Clause 19

On page 13 in line 2 to omit “19” and substitute with “17”.

2. On page 13 line 6 to move clause 17.(2), to new clause 17.(5).

3. On page 13 line 8 to omit “(3)” and substitute with “(2)”.

On page 13 line 9 to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

On page 13 line 11 to omit “a substantial” and substitute with “any”.

On page 13 line 15 to omit “(4)” and substitute with “(3)”.
On page 13 line 20 to omit “(5)” and replace with “(4)”.

On page 13 line 22 to omit clause “19.(6)” and replace with:

“(5) In conducting such a review the head of an organ of state must take into account the conditions for classification and declassification as set out in this chapter.”

Clause 20

On page 13 in line 29 to omit “20” and substitute with “18”.

Clause 21

On page 13 in line 40 to omit “21” and substitute with “19”.

Clause 22

On page 14 in line 2 to omit “22” and substitute with “20”.

On page 14 in line 7 to omit “National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

On page 14 in line 8 to omit “National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

Clause 23

On page 14 line 26 to omit “23” and substitute with “21”.
On page 14 in line 34 to insert after “any” the word “political”.

On page 14 in line 40 to omit “and” and substitute with “or”.

On page 14 in line 41 after “theft” to insert “corruption, maladministration”.

Clause 24

On page 14 in line 44 to omit “24” and substitute with “22”.

On page 14 in line 48 to omit “the National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

On page 14 in line 50 to omit “the National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

On page 14 in line 52 after the third “the” to insert “National” and after “Assembly” to insert “the National Council of Provinces.”

On page 14 in line 55 to omit a committee of the National Assembly and to substitute with “the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence”.

On page 14 line 57 to omit “the National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

Clause 25

On page 15 in line 10 to omit “25” and substitute with “23”.

Clause 26

On page 15 line 14 to omit “26” and substitute with “24”.

Clause 27

On page 15 line 24 to omit “27” and substitute with “25”.

Clause 28

On page 15 line 34 to omit “28” and substitute with “26”.

Clause 29

On page 15 line 40 to omit “29” and substitute with “27”.

On page 15 in line 40 to omit “National Assembly” and substitute with “Parliament”.

Clause 30

On page 15 in line 43 to omit “30” and substitute with “28”.

On page 16 in line 2 after “Panel” to insert “by 31 December of each year.”

Clause 31

On page 16 in line 14 to omit “31” and substitute with “29”.

On page 16 in line 14 after “to” to insert “state”.

On page 16 in line 18 after the second “the” to insert “classifying”.

Clause 32

On page 16 in line 22 to omit “32” and substitute with “30”.

On page 16 line 27 to omit “19” and substitute with “17”.

Clause 33

On page 16 in line 33 to omit “33” and substitute with “31”.

On page 16 in line 36 to omit “17” and substitute with “15”.

On page 16 in line 38 to omit “14” and substitute with “8”.

Clause 34

On page 17 in line 2 to omit “34” and substitute with “32”.

On page 17 in line 3 to omit “and” and substitute with “, 2000 (Act No. 2 of 2000) or”.

Clause 35

On page 17 in line 14 to omit “35” and substitute with “33”.

Chapter 11

On page 17 in line 22 after “Espionage” to insert “and related”.

Clause 36

On page 17 in line 23 to omit “36” and substitute with “34”.

Clause 37

On page 18 in line 2 to omit “37” and substitute with “35”.

On page 18 in line 4 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known” and after “state” to insert “to the detriment of the national security of the Republic.”

On page 18 in line 8 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known” and after “state” to insert “to the detriment of the national security of the Republic.”

On page 18 in line 12 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known” and after “state” to insert “to the detriment of the national security of the Republic.”

Clause 38

On page 18 in line 15 to omit “38” and replace with “36”.

On page 18 in line 18 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known” and after “activity” to omit “or” and substitute with “that would”.

On page 18 in line 22 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known” and after “activity” to omit “or” and substitute with “that would”.

On page 18 in line 29 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known”.

On page 18 in line 33 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known”.

On page 18 in line 39 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known”.

On page 18 in line 44 after “knows” to omit “or ought reasonably to have known”.

Clause 39

On page 18 in line 49 to omit “39” and substitute with “37”.

Clause 40

On page 18 in line 54 to omit “40” and substitute with “38”.

Clause 41

On page 20 in line 14 to omit “41” and replace with “39”.

Clause 42

On page 20 in line 25 to omit “42” and substitute with “40”.

On page 20 in line 30 after “Disclosure” to insert “and Possession”.

Clause 43

On page 20 in line 31 to omit “43” and substitute with “41”.

On page 20 in line 31 after “discloses” to insert “or is in possession of” and after “classified” to insert “state” and after “disclosure” to omit “is” and substitute with “or possession”.

On page 20 in line 34 before “protected” to insert “is” and after “protected” to insert “or authorized” and after “2000)” to omit “or section 159 of” and substitute with “the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, 2004 (Act No. 12 of 2004),” and after “2008)” to insert with “, the Labour Relations Act (Act No. 66 of 1995), or the National Environmental Management Act (Act No. 107 of 1998);”.

On page 20 in line 36 to omit “authorized by any other law.” and substitute with “is authorized in terms of this Act or any other Act of the National Parliament; or”

On page 20 after line 36 to insert new clause (c)

“(c) reveals criminal activity, including any criminal activity in terms of section 45 of this Act.”

Clause 44

On page 20 in line 38 to omit “44” and substitute with “42”.

Clause 45

On page 20 in line 41 to omit “45” and substitute with “43”.

Clause 46

On page 20 in line 45 to omit “46” and substitute with “44”.

On page 20 in line 47 to omit “three” and substitute with “two”.

Clause 47

On page 21 in line 2 to omit “47” and substitute with “45”.

On page 21 in line 8 to omit “law” and substitute with “Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, 2004 (No. 12 of 2004) as well as any other unlawful act or omission, incompetence, inefficiency or administrative error;”.

On page 21 in line 10 to omit “agency” and to substitute with “the Agency”.

Clause 48

On page 21 in line 19 to omit “48” and substitute with “46”.

Clause 49

On page 21 in line 24 to omit clause 49.

Clause 50

On page 21 in line 43 to omit “50” and substitute with “47”.

Clause 51

On page 21 in line 48 to omit “51” and substitute with “48”.

Clause 52

On page 22 in line 4 to omit “52” and substitute with “49”.

Clause 53

On page 23 in line 5 to omit “53” and substitute with “50”.

Clause 54

On page 23 in line 23 to omit “54” and substitute with “51”.

On page 23 in line 23 to omit “may” and substitute with “must”.

On page 23 in line 49 after “or” to insert “the”.

On page 23 after line 50 to insert new subsection (l):

“(l) “the procedure to be followed and the manner in which employees, officials, staff members or any other person who in any manner assists or has in the past assisted in carrying on or conducting the business of an organ of state may disclose breaches of the law or unlawful acts, or omissions, incompetence, inefficiency or administrative error.”

On page 23 after line 50 to insert new subsection (m):

“(m) the procedure to be followed by institutions referred to in section 181 of the Constitution to access classified information and conditions relating to the treatment and protection of such information in terms of clause 7(1) for the fulfillment of their Constitutional and legislative mandate, including investigating and reporting.”

Clause 55

On page 24 in line 37 to omit “55” and substitute with “52”.

On page 25 in line 2 to omit “agency” and substitute with “the Agency”.

On page 25 in line 9 to omit 14 and substitute with “8”.

Clause 56

On page 25 in line 17 to omit ”56” and substitute with “53”.

Clause 57

On page 25 in line 20 to omit “56” and substitute with “54”.

B: Amendments considered by the Ad Hoc Committee but rejected by it

The following amendments, proposed by political parties, was considered by the Ad Hoc Committee but rejected by it and listed here in terms of NCOP Rule 211(2)(b):

Deletion of reference to municipalities from the Bill

The minority view held that all references to municipalities should be omitted from the Bill as no good cause could be shown for the inclusion of municipalities to classify documents.

The Committee considered deleting the following clause:
1. On page 5 line 40 to omit clause (b) “(b) in the case of a municipality, the municipal manager appointed in terms of 40 section 82 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, 1998 (Act No. 117 of 1998), or the person who is acting as such;”

The majority view held that the deletion of clause (b) page 5 line 40 should not be omitted as it defined the head of an organ of state in terms of municipalities and rejected the deletion. The majority view held further that the amendment of 3(b) to exclude municipalities and municipal entities from the application of the Act would prohibit municipalities from classifying documents.

Definition of “National security”

The minority view proposed the definition of “National security” should be strictly defined by omitting “includes” on page 6 line 28 and including “means” to read, “National security” means the protection of the Republic…”
The Committee considered deleting the following clauses to further tighten the scope of the definition of “National security”:
1. On page 6 line 32, 35, 36, 38
2. Delete sub-clause (b) (i) page 6 line 32
3. Delete sub-clause (b) (iii) page 6 line 35
4. Delete sub-clause (b) (iv) page 6 line 36
5. Delete sub-clause (b) (v) page 6 line 38
6. Delete clause (c) page 6 line 43
7. On page 7 line 23: Definition of “state security matter”

‘state security matter’’ ~~includes~~ means any matter, which has been classified in terms of this Act and which is dealt with by the Agency or which relates to the functions of the Agency or to the relationship existing between any person and the Agency;

The majority view held that the term “National security” should retain “includes” as the changing nature of the national security environment required the prompt action of the State Security Agency to protect the Republic. The deletion of the sub-clauses was therefore rejected.

Question raised regarding tagging of the Bill
1. The minority view held that the Bill was incorrectly tagged as the definition defined “archives” as follows:
  1. ‘‘archive’’ means the National Archive or any archive established in terms of a provincial law and includes an archive kept by an organ of state;”.

The minority view held that provincial archives were an exclusive provincial legislative competence in terms of Schedule 5 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996, (Act no 108 of 1996) and the Bill should have been tagged a section 76 Bill.

The Committee considered a proposal to delete all references to provincial archives but based on a legal opinion from the State Law Advisors, addressing the Western Cape Minister of Cultural Affairs and Sport’s concerns regarding the tagging of the Bill, rejected the deletion of the definition of National archives.

Deletion of “valuable information” from the Bill

The minority view held that valuable information, whilst being important and requiring protection, should not form part of the Bill as their protection could be handled through amendments to other legislation that dealt with valuable information.

The majority view supported the Department of State Security’s assertion that the protection of valuable information is critical to the protection of human security which forms the bedrock of national security. The state’s inability to protect valuable documents, such as a birth certificate, would undermine the state’s ability to protect its citizenry. The birth certificate, as an example of valuable information, proves citizenship and birthright and requires protection in terms of this Bill. The majority view of the Committee was not convinced that valuable information should be removed from the Bill

Proposed amendments to restrict application of Bill to Security Services

The minority view proposed that the Bill should be restricted to the security services of the republic and proposed to delete reference to oversight bodies as mentioned in the Bill with regard to clause 3(2)(a) to delete “and the oversight bodies” on Page 8 line 14 to read:
1. “(a) apply to the security services of the Republic ~~and the oversight bodies~~ referred to in Chapter 11 of the Constitution; and”.

Severability of protected information from parts of a document not requiring protection

The minority view held that the legislation ought to require that any information in a record that is not protected, and that can be severed from the protected information, be disclosed as this would be in keeping with section 36(1)(e) of the Constitution that requires any limitation of the Bill of Rights to be applied in the least restrictive sense whilst still accomplishing its purpose.

The Committee considered deleting clause 13(5) on page 10 line 46 and replacing it with:
1. “If a record contains information that must be classified in terms of any provision of this Act, then every part of such record that does not contain such information must, despite any provision of this Act, remain unclassified.”

The proposed amendment was rejected as there was provision made to review classified information and to apply for access to classified information and these amendments were further strengthened by the proposed amendments from the majority.

Report and return of classified information

On page 12 line 2 amend clause 15

Delete existing Clause 15 and replace with the following;

15. “Any person who is in possession of a classified record knowing that such record has been unlawfully communicated, delivered or made available other than in the manner and for the purposes as contemplated in this Act, except where such possession is for any purpose and in any manner authorised by law must report such possession and return such record to a member of the South African Police Services or of the Agency where it shall be dealt with in the manner as prescribed in this Act, except, or;

Where the person in possession has, within 14 days of receipt, applied for declassification as contemplated in this Act, or
Where the person in possession has, within 14 days of receipt, applied to the Classification Review Panel for a STATUS review of the classification as is contemplated in this Act, or
Where the person in possession has, within 14 days of receipt, applied to a court of law for an urgent review of the classification of the classified records or parts thereof, or
Where the information or a part thereof that is contained in the classified record has been improperly classified in terms of this Act.”

Independence of the Classification Review Panel

The minority view argued that the Bill had to ensure the Classification Review Panel’s independence as this would ensure a fair process of assessing the classification of documents. The following proposals amending the reporting function, and financial independence of the Classification Review Panel was tabled:
1. On page 13 line 31 insert new clause 20(2) to read: “(2) The operations of the Classification Review Panel shall be financed/funded by way of a direct appropriation by parliament to a separate budget vote.”
2. Clause 21(2) Delete “, with the concurrence of the Minister,” on page 13 line 47 to read: “(2) The Classification Review Panel may~~, with the concurrence of the Minister,~~ make rules not in conflict with this Act for matters relating to the proper performance of the functions of the Classification Review Panel, including—“
3. Clause 25 delete “the Minister with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance” and replace with “Parliament” on page 15 Line 11 to read: “25. Members of the Classification Review Panel and staff of the Classification Review Panel must be paid such remuneration and allowances as determined by ~~the Minister with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance~~ Parliament.”

Appeal to review refusal for access to classified information

DA proposal:

Clause 19(6) insert “but must in any event within 14 days after the request is received either grant or refuse the request. If the request is refused, the head of the organ of state must provide adequate reasons for such refusal.” after “declassification” on page 13 line 25 to read:

“(6) (5) If an application for a request referred to in subsection (1) is received, the head of the organ of state concerned must within a reasonable time conduct a review of the classified information held by that organ of state relating to the request for declassification but must in any event within 14 days after the request is received either grant or refuse the request. If the request is refused, the head of the organ of state must provide adequate reasons for such refusal.”

Clause 31(1) insert semicolon after “appeal to” and new clause “31(1)(a) the relevant Minister of the organ of state; or” on page 16 line 15 and insert new clause “31(b) the classification review panel.” to read: “31. (1) Any person who is refused access to information in terms of this Act may appeal to; (a) the relevant Minister of the organ of state in question; or (b) the Classification Review Panel where such panel has not yet reviewed the classification in question, or to (c) a court.”
Clause 31(2) delete “30 days” and replace with “6 months” on page 16 line 16 to read: “(2) Any appeal referred to in subsection (1) must be lodged within ~~30 days~~ 6 months of receipt of the decision and the reasons therefor.”

Proposals to omit minimum sentences

Proposals were tabled to omit minimum sentences from the Bill with the minority view arguing that the courts would be the arbiters of the crime and the court should have the discretion to impose the appropriate sentencing.

Proposals to narrowly define intention

Proposals were tabled to delete intention and the clause “ought reasonably to have known” from the Bill:
1. Clause 36(1)(a)

DA proposal:

Clause 36(1)(a) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to benefit a foreign state” on page 17 line 25 and insert “communicating such information” after “person” in line 26 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” in line 26 and delete “or indirectly” in line 27 to read:

“(a) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to benefit a foreign state communicate, deliver or make available state information classified top secret which the person communicating such information knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state-; or”

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(1)(a) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 25 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” in line 26 and delete “or indirectly” in line 27 to read:

“(a) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security communicate, deliver or make available state information classified top secret which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state-; or”

Clause 36(1)(b)

DA proposal:

Clause 36(1)(b) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to benefit a foreign state” on page 17 line 28 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known would directly or indirectly benefit a foreign” and replace with “would be communicated to a foreign state or agent and would directly benefit a foreign state” after “knows” in line 29 to read:

“(b) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to benefit a foreign state make, obtain, collect, capture or copy a record containing state information classified top secret which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly or indirectly benefit a foreign would be communicated directly to a foreign state or agent and would directly benefit a foreign state.”

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(1)(b) Delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 28 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 29 and delete “or indirectly” in line 30 to read:

“(b) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security make, obtain, collect, capture or copy a record containing state information classified top secret which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state.”

Clause 36(2)(a)

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(2)(a) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 34 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 35 and delete “or indirectly” in line 36 to read:

“(a) to unlawfully and i~~ntentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security communicate, deliver or make available state information classified secret which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state-; or”

Clause 36(2)(b)

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(2)(b) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 37 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 38 to read:

“(b) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security make, obtain, collect, capture or copy a record containing state information classified secret which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ will directly benefit a foreign state.”

Clause 36(3)(a)

DA proposal:

Clause 36(3)(a) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to benefit a non state actor engaged in hostile activity” on page 17 line 42 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 43 and delete “or indirectly” on page 17 line 44 to read:

“(a) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to benefit a non state actor engaged in hostile activity communicate, deliver or make available state information classified confidential which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state; or”

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(3)(a) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 42 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 43 and delete “or indirectly” on page 17 line 44 to read:

“(a) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security communicate, deliver or make available state information classified confidential which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state; or”

Clause 36(3)(b)

DA proposal:

Clause 36(3)(b) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to benefit a non state actor engaged in hostile activity” on page 17 line 46 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 47 and delete “or indirectly” on page 17 line 48 to read:

“(b) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to benefit a non state actor engaged in hostile activity make, obtain, collect, capture or copy a record containing state information classified confidential which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state.”

COPE proposal:

Clause 36(3)(b) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 17 line 46 and delete “or ought reasonably to have known” on page 17 line 47 and delete “or indirectly” on page 17 line 48 to read:

“(b) to unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security make, obtain, collect, capture or copy a record containing state information classified confidential which the person knows ~~or ought reasonably to have known~~ would directly ~~or indirectly~~ benefit a foreign state.”

On page 18 line 49 in clause 39

COPE proposal:

On page 18 line 49 in clause 39 to delete “or has reasonable grounds to believe or suspect,”

Clause 40(1)

COPE proposal:

Clause 40(1) delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 18 line 56 to read:

“40. (1) Subject to the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-Related Information Act, 2002 (Act No. 70 of 2002), a person who ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security accesses or intercepts any classified information without authority or permission to do so, is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a period not exceeding 10 years.”

Clause 40(6)(b)

COPE proposal:

Clause 40(6)(b) Insert “, and with the intention to gain access to information which that person is not lawfully entitled to receive,” after “wilfully,”on page 19 line 36 to read:

“40(6)(b) Any person who wilfully, and with the intention to gain access to information which that person is not lawfully entitled to receive, gains unauthorised access to any computer which belongs to or is under the control of the State.....”

Clause 40(6)(c)

COPE proposal:

Clause 40(6)(c) Insert “, and with the intention to gain access to information which that person is not lawfully entitled to receive,” after “wilfully,”on page 19 line 41 to read:

“40(6)(c) Any person who wilfully, and with the intention to gain access to information which that person is not lawfully entitled to receive, causes a computer which belongs to or is under the control of the State....”

On page 20 line 31 amend clause 43

DA proposal:

Clause 43 Delete “intentionally” and replace with “with the intention to cause harm to national security” on page 20 line 31 to read:

“43. Any person who unlawfully and ~~intentionally~~ with the intention to cause harm to national security discloses classified information in contravention of this Act is guilty of an offence......”

Failure to report possession

Clause 44

DA proposal

“44. Any person who fails to comply with section 15 is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding ~~five~~ one years provided that no person may be prosecuted;

(1) if that person has, within 14 days of receipt, applied for declassification as contemplated in this Act, or

(2) if that person has, within 14 days of receipt, applied to the Classification Review Panel for a review of the classification as is contemplated in this Act, or

(3) if that person has, within 14 days of receipt, applied to a court of law for an urgent review of the classification of the classified records or parts thereof, or

(4) where the information or a part thereof that is contained in a classified record has been improperly classified in terms of this Act.”

Improper classification

On page 21 line 10 amend clause 47(1)(c)(iii)
1. DA proposal: Insert after 47(1)(c)(iv) the following:

(v) conceal that a miscarriage of justice has occurred, is occurring or is likely to occur,

(vi) conceal that the health or safety of an individual has been, is being or is likely to be endangered,

(vii) conceal that the environment has been, is being or is likely to be endangered or damaged,

(viii) conceal that a public safety risk exists,

Authority of National Director of Public Prosecutions

Clause 48

DA proposal:

Clause 48 delete “two” and replace with “five” on page 21 line 22 to read:

“48. A head of an organ of state or an official of such organ of state who wilfully or in a grossly negligent manner fails to comply with the provisions of this Act commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine, or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding ~~two~~ five years.”

Proposal to include the public interest defence and public domain defence clause

DA proposal:

Add NEW Clause 49(1) to read as follows;

“(1) (a) No person is guilty of an offence under section 49.(1) if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest.

(b) A person acts in the public interest if;

(i) the person acts for the purpose of disclosing an offence under any law that he or she reasonably believes has been, is being or is about to be committed by another person in the performance of that person’s duties and functions for, or on behalf of, the Government of South Africa, and;

(ii) the public interest in the disclosure out-weighs the public interest in non-disclosure.

(c) In determining whether or not a person acts in the public interest, a court shall determine whether or not the condition in paragraph (2)(b)(i) is satisfied before considering paragraph (2)(b)(ii).

(d) In deciding whether or not the public interest in the disclosure outweighs the public interest in non-disclosure, a court must consider;

(i) whether or not the extent of the disclosure is no more than is reasonably necessary to disclose the alleged offence or to prevent the commission or continuation of the alleged offence, as the case may be,

(ii) the seriousness of the alleged offence,

whether or not the person resorted to other reasonably accessible alternatives before making the disclosure and, in doing so, whether or not the person complied with any relevant guidelines, policies or laws that applied to the person,
whether or not the person had reasonable grounds to believe that the disclosure would be in the public interest,
the public interest intended to be served by the disclosure,
the extent of the harm or risk of harm created by the disclosure, and
the existence of exigent circumstances to justify the disclosure.

(e) A court may decide whether or not the public interest in the disclosure outweighs the public interest in non-disclosure only if the person has complied with the following;

(i) the person has, before communicating or confirming the information, brought his or her concern to, and provided all relevant information in his or her possession to, his or her immediate superior, and

(ii) the person has, if he or she has not received a response from his or her immediate superior within a reasonable time, brought his or her concern to, and provided all relevant information in the person’s possession to the Joint Standing Intelligence Committee of Parliament.

(f) Sub-section (2)(e) shall not apply if the communication or confirmation of the information was necessary in order to avoid grievous bodily harm or death.”

COPE proposal:

Insert NEW clause 49: The public interest and public domain defences

49. (1) No person is guilty of an offence under sections 42, 43 and 44 if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest.

(2) A person acts in the public interest if the person has reason to believe that the classified information concerned shows one or more of the following:

that a criminal offence or breach of the law has been, is being or is about to be committed;
that a person has failed, is failing or is likely to fail to comply with any legal obligation to which that person is subject;
that a miscarriage of justice has occurred, is occurring or is likely to occur;
that the health or safety of individual has been, is being or is likely to be endangered;
that the environment has been, is being or is likely to be damaged;
that a public safety risk exists;
that gross incompetence, mismanagement or impropriety on the part of any person has occurred;
that an unlawful act, inefficiency or administrative error is being promoted;
that an undue advantage is being given to anyone in a competitive bidding process; and
that the public is being misled by an action or statement of another person

(3) No person is guilty of an offence under sections 42, 43 and 44 if the person establishes that the information, or substantially the same information, disclosed was in the public domain at the time of the disclosure.

Extra-territorial application of Act

DA proposal:

Add NEW Clause 50 to read:

“50.(1) No person is guilty of an offence in terms of any section of this Act if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest by disclosing classified information.

(2) A person who discloses classified information acts in the public interest if the person has reason to believe that the classified information disclosed shows one or more of the following;

(a) that a criminal offence or a breach of the law has been, is being or is about to be committed,

(b) that a person has failed, is failing or is likely to fail to comply with any legal obligation to which that person is subject,

(d) that the health or safety of an individual has been, is being or is likely to be endangered,

(e) that the environment has been, is being or is likely to be endangered or damaged,

(f) that a public safety risk exists,

(g) that gross incompetence, mismanagement or impropriety on the part of any person has occurred or is occurring,

(h) that an unlawful act, inefficiency or administrative error has been or is being promoted,

(i) that an undue advantage has been or is being given to any person involved in or who should be involved in a competitive bidding process, or

(j) that the public has been or is being misled by an action or statement of another person.

(3) Unless the disclosure was necessary in order to avoid grievous bodily harm or death, the court may take the following factors into account when deciding whether or not the disclosure was in the public interest;

(a) whether the extent of the disclosure is no more than is reasonably necessary to disclose the alleged offence or to prevent the commission or continuation of the alleged offence, as the case may be,

(b) the seriousness of the alleged offence,

(c) whether the person resorted to other reasonably accessible alternatives before making the disclosure and, in so doing, whether the person complied with any relevant laws that applied to the person,

(d) whether the person had reasonable grounds to believe that the disclosure would be in the public interest,

(e) the public interest intended to be served by the disclosure,

(f) the extent of the harm or risk of harm created by the disclosure, and

(g) the existence of exigent circumstances to justify the disclosure.

(4) No person shall be guilty of an offence under the Act if the person establishes that the information, or substantially the same information, disclosed by the person was in the public domain at the time of the disclosure.

Protection of classified information before courts

Clause 52(6)

DA proposal:

Clause 52(6) Delete “may, if it considers it appropriate” and replace with “must” to read:

“52(6) A court ~~may, if it considers it appropriate~~ must, seek the written or oral submissions of interested parties, persons and organisations but may not disclose the actual classified information to such persons or parties prior to its order to disclose the classified information in terms of subsection (2)”.

Transitional provisions

DA proposal:

On page 24 line 51 clause 55(2) remove provisions for making the possession of information classified in terms of Act No. 84 of 1982 and in terms of NISS Guidelines an offence.

Certification of the Bill

The Ad Hoc Committee certifies that –

all amendments are constitutionally and procedurally in order within the meaning of Joint Rule 161; and
no amendments affect the classification of the Bill.

Report to be considered.

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NCOP: Unrevised hansard

Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 27 Nov 2012

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