Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 08 Dec 2021
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 08 DECEMBER 2021
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)
The House met at 15:00.
The House Chairperson (Mr C T FROLICK) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, in the interest of safety for all present in the chamber please keep your mask on and sit in your designated area and restrict your movements as far as possible.
This first item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 3, Governance.
There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. An adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. And the members who will pose supplementary questions will first be recognised by the Presiding Officer.
In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions the principle of fairness, amongst others, have been applied.
If a member who is supposed to as a supplementary question the virtual problem is unable to do so due technical problems, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member.
When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the member of the executive we will then proceed to the next question on the Order Paper.
The first question has been asked by the hon Hendricks to the Minister in the Presidency for Women ...
Hon members to the left, I’m busy addressing the House and you are carrying on as if the House hasn’t started yet.
The first question has been asked by the hon Hendricks to Minister in the Presidency for Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities.
I’ve been informed that the hon Minister will be answering
questions through the virtual platform.
The hon Minister!
QUESTIONS – CLUSTER 3 - GOVERNANCE
Question 384:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair and hon members, the department is working with national and provincial departments, local government structures, civil society organisations and other stakeholders to ensure that the reduction and total eradication, if we can, of gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, does happen.
The department provides technical support to national and provincial departments to develop smart implementation plans on the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide and monitor all of them against these plans.
We are working with local government to establish multistakeholders gender-based violence and femicide rapid response teams that aim to provide holistic coordinated support to victims of gender-based violence and femicide.
With regard to implementing empowerment programmes, you will recall that the empowerment of women is under Pillar 5 of the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide.
In this regard, the responsibility of empowerment of women in order to access economic opportunities has been allocated to all government departments with an emphasis on those within economic sectors, investment, employment and infrastructure development cluster including the private sector.
The role of the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities is to monitor progress made by the economic cluster departments in empowering women and ensuring accessibility of economic opportunities and resources according to the targets identified in the National Strategic Plan, monitoring and evaluation plan.
Monthly progress reports are provided by the respective departments, and the department monitors the implementation
through raising issues of concern to be addressed by the respective departments at the monthly directors-general cluster meeting and Forum of SA Directors-General, FOSAD clusters.
The National Strategic Plan of Gender-Based Violence and Femicide is a standing agenda item to all FOSAD or directors- general cluster’s meeting.
The department and the Presidency are embarking on an ongoing capacity building regarding empowerment of women-owned businesses in public and procurement projects. I thank you, House Chair.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, thank you very much to the Minister for the high level response. I think Parliament now understands that the Minister and her department just play a monitoring role and we cannot really expect any tangible immediate benefits for women.
Having said that: Will the Minister support a standby force in a pilot project in at least 100 hotspots that when alerted will come out to rescue women when they have been beaten up
and take them to the nearest police station? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: House Chair, we play the role of making sure that we are not only working with monitoring but we also follow up on those who are underperforming on this issue of women empowerment.
Hon President Ramaphosa had said that even government departments should make sure that 40% of the procurement goes to women. So, we work with all departments to make sure that this happens.
As for gender-based violence and femicide we work with all departments and we call upon all departments but also internationally, we used the influence of those who are working with us but because gender-based violence and femicide even at home it happens. In the backyard there should be no spectator.
This very month we are dealing with issues of 16 Days of Activism. It is the responsibility of all of us to make sure that gender-based violence is not just a police matter. If my
neighbour’s wife is crying and I’ve heard her, I should have done something myself. So, there will be no spectator. I thank you, House Chair.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, the problem of gender-based violence cuts across all classes in society, affecting the poor as much as it affects the rich. But if more women were to be empowered not to depend on the abusers for a livelihood, many would be able to escape when the red flags start showing.
What concrete programmes of work have you done targeted and lifting poor women out of poverty and dependence on men for livelihoods. Thank you very much, House Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: House Chair, well, we really cannot agree more with the hon member. What are we doing? We follow the Constitution. We work under the ... we are a department in the Presidency.
What have we done? We continue to monitor the progress. The economic cluster departments’ progress of empowering women in ensuring that – as you say, hon member – women do not depend on the other. It shouldn’t be that.
What we had a week ago before we travelled with the President, to make sure that this message of zero-rating, gender disappointment, we say this is the responsibility of the society. So, access to economic empowerment is what is the responsibility of all government departments.
So, what have we done? We are working every day with all the stakeholders that I referred to when I started this afternoon.
Before we left with the President we also engaged with those who do not pay maintenance. We also work with the Department of Education.
But to respond directly to your question. Yes, this is not a poor woman’s problem. Access to work, access to health [Time expired.]
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Modulasetulo wa Ngwako, ke tami?a Tona ...
English:
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: House Chairperson, on a point of order. Chair, just give us a guidance. So, now, we ask questions to the Minister regarding gender-based violence, which is very
critical and very sensitive, so, we don’t get answers. Just give us a guidance. This is not just a talk show, but we need answers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, you asked a follow up question and the Minister was in the process of responding to that question. And unfortunately her time according to rules ran out and I stopped her.
So, the next follow up question is to be asked by the hon Phiri.
Sepedi:
Moh C M PHIRI: Modulasetulo wa Ngwako, ke i?a madume a ka go Tona, Mme Maite. Ke re Mme Maite, pot?i?o ya ka e ka tsela ye
...
English:
Noting that there was an inadequate reporting and capturing the implementation of the work done by the collaboratives and stakeholders in monthly report, what measures have you put in place to ensure inadequate reporting in the implementation of the national strategic plan, particularly work conducted by the collaboratives and other stakeholders?
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga.
TONA YA KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE YA BASADI, BASWA LE
DIGOLEThe: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo ...
English:
... and repeat what I’ve said earlier on that there is inadequate reporting, it’s what we had identified and we follow up on those who had been underreporting.
We started from ages of less than 10, we are now moving ... I’m talking about departments ... now, almost 50% of the departments are not just reporting but they feel the need to be doing something about giving women access and protecting women.
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.
English:
Rev K R J MESHOE: Houses Chair, there seems to be a lack of urgency on the part of government when it comes to fighting GBV and femicide.
In March 2020 President Ramaphosa launched the National Strategic Plan to stop gender-based violence. This National Strategic Plan cannot be implemented, however, without a national council on gender-based violence and femicide. And according to human rights groups the establishment of this council is still a long way off.
The ACDP is of the opinion that the ANC should apologise to the nation for its support to Independent Civic Organisation of SA, ICOSA, in that municipality. By so doing it endorsed the sexual abuse of minors, the exploitation of women and it continued to excuse rape by powerful men in the name of political experience.
My question, hon Minister, is: Whether you think that GBV and Femicide can be eradicated from society when community members, particularly women, still support and defend men who have been found guilty of rape to be their leaders? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): The hon Minister!
Hon Minister, please keep in mind that you only have two minutes to respond. So, please don’t repeat the question. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, GBVF is a societal challenge, it needs government and the society at large, including every other space where women and children find themselves. By that I mean even at church. They should feel safe; they must be safe.
The formation of the gender-based violence council has moved all the steps. As Parliament reconvenes we will be bringing the draft to parliament for permanent adoption so that we all work together, but working together we have started.
So, if hon Reverend wants to join the party, welcome. This is the time to work together to deal with this pandemic because gender-based violence has become a pandemic. We have to adopt the council through Parliament. I thank you, Chair.
Question 365:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, Covid-19 restrictions have posed challenges to the implementation of the National Strategic Plan, NSP, on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide because multistakeholder co-ordination is the main requirement for each implementation, in order to ensure that all stakeholders
collaborate towards fighting gender-based violence and femicide, in line with their mandates.
In this regard, Covid-19 restrictions have also posed serious challenges and restrictions to the ability of various stakeholders who are key in fighting gender-based violence and femicide to share plans, progress reports, work together in their efforts to effectively fight this pandemic.
A lack of capacity by provinces has also posed challenges to provinces to implement the National Strategic Plan of Gender- based Violence and Femicide. As a result, a number of provinces are still in the process of developing monitoring and evaluations plans for the National Strategic Plan of Gender-Based Violence and Femicide co-ordination structures.
In relation to the preliminary assessment of the impact of the plan, the assessment will be done in the 2022-23 financial year, in partnership with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. Plans are in motion, in this regard. I thank you.
Tshiven?a:
Mufumakadzi Vho C M PHIRI: Ndi khou livhuwa, Mudzulatshidulo. Muhulisei, ndi maga afhio e vha a vhea u bveledza kana u thivhela thaidzo kana zwikhakhisi zwine zwa nga vha hone uri ri kone u bveledza lu?a lwa vhuvhili lwa ‘NSP gender-based violence and femicide’ ri tshi vhambedza na lu?a lwa u thoma uri ri kone u bvelela zwavhu?i zwi songo fane na lu?a lwa u thoma. Ndo livhuwa, Mudzulatshidulo.
MINISI?A OFISINI YA MUPHURESIDENNDE WA VHAFUMAKADZI, VHASWA NA
VHATHU VHA RE NA VHUHOLELEFHALI: Muhulisei, aa! Ndi masiari. Lu?a lwashu lwa vhuvhili lu a fana na lu?a lwa u thoma.
English:
What is important is that we should keep women safe and they should not be expected to continue facing the pandemic called Covid-19 and have to face a second pandemic called gender- based violence and femicide. So, we are working with the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation and with all the departments and working – and I mean, we work - with civil society to make sure that we eradicate this pandemic that we are faced with, which is man-made - gender-based violence and femicide.
Whilst we have to say to all our people, particularly, our women and youth and people with disabilities that it seems Covid-19 is not a visitor so, all of us have to continue observing all the Covid-19 protocols, we have to protect our women, youth and persons with disabilities. Let us feel and be safe. Let us not have an overdependence on the police.
Covid-19 is in our midst. The responsibility of government equally is to ensure access to vaccines, but our people must also be ready to receive the vaccines, so that we join the herd community because our people would have co-operated with government in eradicating both gender-based violence and making sure that they survive Covid-19. Thank you.
Ms N K SHARIF: Hon house Chair, Minister, we know it is festive and we are all tired, but at least try and answer our questions, please. Your department has reported that only 15 departments have submitted their monitoring and evaluation plans on the implementation of the NSP. What intervention, other than writing strongly worded letters to DGs will you put in place to ensure one, monitoring and evaluation plans are submitted and two, all departments involved in the implementation of the NSP is being monitored. Minister, we know you can answer the questions. Go ahead.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, we don’t interact with one another in this way. You cannot give an instruction to the Minister to go ahead. You asked the question to the presiding officer, and I will do so.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, well, during that time, we interacted with the hon member and we make sure that the NSP on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide is implemented. She has been to many of our occasions. So, we also make sure that there is no government called national. Yes, there is a national government, but this pandemic of gender-based violence and femicide that we are talking about is actually taking place where we live.
So, even provinces are responding. Currently, those that have responded positively include KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng, Limpopo and the Eastern Cape provinces. So, we call upon all other provinces that are still developing their monitoring and evaluation plans on the NSP on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide to do so, so that we reach out to all and make sure that our women and girl children do not only feel safe but are safe.
As I have indicated, we will prioritise the preliminary assessment on the impact of the National Strategic Plan in the 2022-23 financial year, in partnership with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. Thank you.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon House Chairperson, Minister, your portfolio requires that, in order to be effective, you must consider the work of various departments. Are you not concerned that the Department of Police, in particular, has proven to be the weak link in fighting GBV and femicide? If you are, what sort of engagement are you having with the Minister of Police to come to the party? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, hon member, we work, follow up and visit sites without the Minister of Police. He does not visit sites with us. We go independently to monitor and see what is happening on the ground. For example, we visited Witbank. We went during the day. If it is okay for us, we also visit in the evenings, as we did in ... [Inaudible.] ... to make sure that all that which can help protect ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Ntlangwini, yes, I think, for the sake of the Minister, just repeat the question. [Laughter.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chairperson, yes, I think, I will repeat it. [Interjections.] I could pick that she did not hear. Shame! Minister, your portfolio requires that you must be effective and you must do work with various departments. Are you not concerned that the Police Department in particular, has proven to be the weak link in the fight against GBV and femicide? If you are, what sort of engagement are you having with the Minister of Police to come to the party in fighting GBV? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I will repeat what I have said earlier, we work with the Minister ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members! Give the Minister a chance.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No wonder we are where we are.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We have the constitutional responsibility to work with the Minister, not to work for the Minister. So, that is why, when we get reports to visit sites, we go on own. When we bring back reports and engage with the Minister, we do it after having convinced ourselves that which is needed is being done. If it is not done, we have, through our mandate, worked with all departments, including the Police.
We engage the Minister, but we don’t engage with him without going to the sites. That is why I repeated visiting sites so that, if somebody comes back and say, no the Minister of Police has not done this ... The Minister of the Police work with the police personally and that is why we have the need to visit places in provinces on our own.
Somewhere, they are good and somewhere, you feel that there is a need. Where we feel the need to engage the Minster, we do so. So, if we have to bring you with, hon member, then say so. We have fulltime engagements with the Minister of Police, but he is not the only soul. It is important that we work with all stakeholders.
However, the police personnel who are working on gender-based violence and femicide needs this speciality. They need extra special training and we are working with the UN to make sure that those who have been identified by the police to do this work are fully trained. They must not say: I have beaten my wife the last night, so who can I take your case? So, that is not the responsibility of the Minister only.
Ms T BREEDT: Hon House Chair, above and beyond the GBVF National Strategic Plan, there is existing legislation, sexual offenses courts, etc, that are currently not functioning but can contribute to not only the National Strategic Plan but to combat GBVF. These existing methods of combatting GBVF do not necessarily fall under your portfolio but should be seen in collective with what your department is doing and in terms of the National Strategic Plan. What plans are there from your department to ensure that we take a collective approach and departments do not function in silos, as has been the case with many governmental projects?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, the department works with all responsible Ministers, departments, the security cluster, including Justice. You have passed through three Bills that
you referred to, not in this department that fall under Justice. Justice is a member of our cluster, so justice needs to be seen as doing and justice. I think we have to make Justice, Police, and other departments fully responsible, as they do. We work with all of them because there is a need for us to do that. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, is that the response?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I cannot hear you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, are you through with your response?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We have said that the departments that fall under the inter-ministerial committee continue to work together under the two committees, in fact, of the economic development and also the ... [Inaudible.] ... which is the cluster of the DGs and security cluster to make sure that that which we commit to, happen. I am talking here about the inter-
ministerial committee that was appointed by the President. So, all those departments take full responsibility. Thank you.
Question 366:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, has in the financial year 2021 up to the end of November supported 9 000 young people with non- financial support to start and scale up their own enterprises. The Agency has also supported 821 youth-owned enterprises or start-ups with financial support.
Furthermore, the National Treasury has provided an additional R30 million through the Presidential Employment Stimulus to support an additional 1 000 youth-owned enterprises with grant funding in the 2021-22 financial year.
The Minister of Small Business Development, during the month of November 2021, established in partnership with the Ecosystem Development for Small Enterprise, the R300 million Youth Challenge Fund, which is a youth start-up support programme intended to stimulate the establishment and growth of youth-owned businesses. This programme is also aims to grow the economy and foster job creation.
In line with National Youth Policy, the Youth Challenge Fund will be providing support to youth start-up businesses or enterprises with a goal of meeting the 15 000 target. A target of 15 000 start-ups target to be met by the NYDA and the Department of Small Business Development by 2024.
In relation to monitoring the impact the programme is having on the targeted groups in the small, medium and micro enterprise sector, a co-ordinating committee has been established across the Department of Trade and Industry, Department of Small Business including its entities, Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, and Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, the Industrial Development Corporation, National Empowerment Fund and NYDA which co- ordinates the ecosystem of support to young people. Thank you, House Chair.
The coordinating committee will also monitor the impact of the support rendered to young people.
Ms T S MASONDO: House Chairperson, can the Minister provide us with a detailed report on the impact of the support rendered to young people on the 15 000 start-ups? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: The feedback that I have just given you when I read out the responsibility and the work we have been doing with the departments is what we are doing, and I have listed the numbers for you. If Chair wants me to repeat, I will because we are also utilising internal programmes that I had referred to.
I said up to the end of November 2021, 9 000 young people have been given support on start-ups by the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, and also given non-financial support. So, if we are on the youth only it is okay because pillar 5 of the National Strategic Plan, is emphasising the need and the effort we should take in interventions to boost the economic wellbeing of young people and women.
Mr L MPHITI: House Chairperson, to the Minister, even your own ANC colleagues in the benches are laughing at you right now because you are failing to answer the question. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon Mphithi, may I advise you not to address the House with your hands in your pockets, please. You may proceed.
Mr L MPHITI: Hon Minister, youth unemployment is at 77%, and unfortunately, I will not be respectful or palatable with you. What exactly have you done with the 9 000 youth entrepreneurs who have received assistance from the department? Have their businesses been able to succeed? The best advice I can give you is to resign because you are failing to answer the questions when we have a crisis in this country of youth unemployment. Young people are unemployed. You have failed in your job. The best thing you can do right now for us is to resign. [Applause.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Mphithi, when women, youth and persons with disabilities are given an opportunity to not only depend on the other, when COVID stops making their business difficult, you will see that all of us will remain hon members. Those in the committee, particularly you honourable, because we have just come back with the President travelling the west Africa to see if there is something that we are not doing which they do. Reality is access to finance — real access so that educated young people do not feel the need to depend on the others to survive. The COVID-19 pandemic has not been kind to us. It has slowed down all programmes of all governments and all economies throughout the world. So, we
have not been found to be lonely. It is not a good site in our neighbourhood where women and young people have to depend on the others to survive.
You are talking about things that we cannot do alone — you and I cannot do alone. We have to get big businesses to come to the party so that young people do not go looking for jobs but jobs find them. In the past we used to say that all they need is to be educated, but they also now need skills which is something that we are working on with the Department of Basic Education and Higher Education. Skills that are relevant to the need of the hour in our business of government.
Ms C V KING: House Chairperson, it’s on numerous occasions that the Minister is not actually listening and answering to the questions being posed. It is an indictment of that she didn’t actually prepare.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order, hon member?
Ms C V KING: My point is why is the Minister not answering the questions that are being posed. And the second one is that one
of the ANC member sitting over there please ask her to wear a mask. Over there in purple. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I always remind you that when you ask a follow-up question it should be one. The hon Minister was trying to answer the first part of the follow-up question that was asked by the hon Mphithi. Now, you may disagree with me. You asked two follow-up questions and the Minister couldn’t get to the second one. So, in this instance here time has now expired. I would request the hon Minister to be more brief and to the point to the questions set that are being asked. I am not in a position to judge if the response that the hon Minister has given is sufficient.
The members in the committee and those who are working in that area are in a better position to do so. I would like the hon Minister to be more brief and to the point so that we can get through this session, and is to the benefit of the National Assembly, not only to the members who are asking the questions but also those in the House and those who are on the virtual platform.
Secondly, at the beginning of the session I requested that all members please observe all the necessary COVID-19 protocols, that includes the wearing of a mask and to also observe the
necessary social distance. All of us are under the obligation to do so. We will proceed to the next follow-up question that is being asked by the hon Sonti. It will be asked on behalf of the hon Sonti because she is not on platform at the moment. Is there a Whip from the EFF?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, I will take it. Minister, we know that most of the President’s state of the nation address have been empty shells of no substance. The reality of many rural women and young women in particular point to the fact that the state has ignored this sector of South African society. What interventions have you made, directed mainly at rural young women to support their business innovations? If you have made any such interventions as a Minister in your department, may you kindly mention just three? I know three is very difficult for you, you can also just mention one in this case because I don’t think that you can be able to mention three. Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Our responsibility, hon Chair, is to make sure that all women, particularly rural women, gain access. Rural and township. Whether they are in Soweto, Mamelodi or Thohoyandou, they gain access to financial support so that
they will not be feeling the need to remain in the
neighbourhood that they don’t. thank you, Chair.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Point of order, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, once again the Minister is not responding to the question that our member posed. We asked for an example of where such intervention has taken place, and nothing of that is forthcoming. The Minister referred to a shell, and we were referring to an empty shell and that is the President’s state of the nation address.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, hon member. Hon Minister, do you have any specific information you want to share with the House?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I have a responsibility like the hon members say that businesses that are rural based and township based also get access from government owned SOEs so they are not three, they are many but we need more because our economy
... [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: Give us an example!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Paulsen, I have not recognised you to speak. Secondly, you are not even the person who asked the follow-up question. So, please don’t interrupt the hon Minister while she is trying to respond. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I am saying that women and young people who have been targeted have even been shown the door where they should be asking for support. Be it that they are from Soweto or Thohoyandou or Mamelodi or wherever.
The businesses that you want me to call by names are a responsibility of the Minister of Small Business and I have been given the assurance that they are taking place in those areas that I have just listed. So, if you want the list, we will come with the Minister of Small Business and give you a list of more than three, because what I had observed is that when the President said 40% of procurement through government must be to our people, we moved from 13% to almost 40%. So, the three you will get them in the neighbourhoods I have listed. Thank you, Chair.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Chair, is this the oversight that as Members of Parliament we are supposed to do?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkhaliphi, I listened to the follow-up question and it is quite clear that the hon Minister is not in a position to supply that information. I would suggest that the information be made available to the members of this portfolio committee working with the Ministry of Small Business Development. That is the best that we can do under these circumstances.
Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chair, to the hon Minister, in a recent meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities on the performance of the National Youth Development Agency, concerns were raised in the amount paid for project management and implementing agents which were as high as 15% which impacted other targets. What is being done to investigate this concern that criteria is used to determine the reasonable amount to be paid for implementing agents in the fulfilment of projects focusing on uplifting the [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, we have shared with the House
the information on the activities of the NYDA. On their activities up to the end of November 2021. It has taken in the responsibility in time of this hon House to appoint a new board of the NYDA which has just been appointed through this hon House. So, we will follow-up as we had shared the information on what has happened to date and what will be happening beyond this with the new board that you have just approved. Thank you, Chair.
Question 386:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, Chairperson, and greetings to the House. The development of sustainable regulatory measures needed for the control of Covid-19 beyond the national state of disaster in terms of existing legislation administered by the respective Ministries is in progress.
Notable is that relevant sector departments have been requested to accelerate the phasing-in of Covid-19 resilience measures using their respective existing legislative frameworks. For example, Health Department has already begun and then also Tourism has just concluded theirs and others obviously will then be initiating and finalising. And at the
point where the Cabinet Ministers are ready there will then be giving this particular work attention and they will then definitely indicate those particular areas.
A specific date by which the national state of disaster is to be lifted cannot be provided at this stage but it is important to reiterate that all lockdown restrictions will be lifted and the state of disaster will be terminated as soon as it is determined that the need to augment existing legislation and contingency arrangements through the disaster management regulations is no longer required to assist and protect the public, provide relief to the public, protecting property, preventing or combating disruption or dealing with the distractive and other effects of the disaster. Thank you very much.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you, Chair. Constitutions are made not only by written instruments but also by convictions by habits of doing. And every time the Minister extends the national disaster by Ministerial determination without consulting Parliament or anybody else she is creating a certain conviction that can be abused. Now the President has said to Parliament that ongoing assessments are being made by the National Coronavirus Command Council and Cabinet to determine
satisfactory conditions for terminating or allowing the state of disaster to lapse. The Deputy Minister has not given any details of what those conditions are in response to this question, only vague references to certain departments. When will the Minister be in a position to inform Parliament when satisfactory conditions are in place so that we can get out of a national state of disaster? Please, give us the details.
Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, Chairperson. And thanks to the hon member. As I indicated that two departments are almost ready, with the Department of Health, they have drafted four sets of regulations to amend existing regulations to substantially deal with matters such as the port health, communicable disease and control etc.
The state law advisers are still currently being consulted on these regulations and the draft regulations will then be published for public comment when the internal policy process has been completed. And the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs therefore is just wait for that process and many others that obviously Health is engaging on.
Another example is the Department of Tourism as earlier indicated, which has published norms and standards for the safe operations of the Tourism sector in the context of Covid-
19 and other related pandemics. These norms and standards have now been approved by the Cabinet and maybe published in due course.
And I think when those happens then I think the details and some of the responses will be there, and the Minister as these emerges out of this particular processes will then definitely come to Parliament and give those particular indications where obviously the Disaster Management Act will no longer be in use but these new protocols and measures will then be introduced and takes over and nothing the response that one can give for now. But the Minister at the point when everything is ready we will then be able to come to Parliament to present. Thank you.
Ms D R DIREKO: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, having stand for about two years looking about Covid-19 pandemics, what lessons can be drawn from the international experiences regarding the further management and the timing of lifting the national state of disaster? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, Chairperson. And thank you, hon member. We are indeed taking lessons from other countries. There is a study that has been made in nine African countries as to how they reacted to the pandemic as it was growing and spreading. And then quiet a number of useful lessons, including South Africa in that nine countries in the Sub-Saharan that we are now beginning to look on.
Obviously, at the beginning they used the state of emergencies to react to the situation. With us we opted for the state of disaster but as time went obviously they were started adopting by strengthening the regulations on health and whatever other aspects that were needed by that particular country. For example, in Lesotho they have never used any disaster when early state of emergencies is in.
Another lesson, they have been using protocols and measures that they will then use and other countries they will then use what we call the presidential decrees because their Constitution does allow that.
In the UK also, they did used the state of emergency at the beginning but they have now since moved out of that and they
are now using other measures that have now started building in so that it can also help.
So, what we are therefore foreseen is that having learned from these countries, these measures that the Department of Health, Tourism and other departments that are going to be coming forth, they will also be learning and taking some of the measures and using them in the existing instruments that are there and augmenting and strengthening those instruments so that they are not only for the Disaster Act to be used and therefore, those lessons are useful and we are taking a lot of lessons from these countries. Thank you, Chair.
Mr K CEZA: Thanks very much, Chairperson of the House. Deputy Minister, pivotal to the issues pertaining to the Disaster Management Act is the question of timeframes. From the experience we have had with Covid for the past 20 months or so, it is now crystal clear that total lockdown does not lower the rates of infections. That which we need is a societal consensus devastation. Despite the availability of vaccinations and the devastation put by previous lockdown, is there a possibility that you still tighten the national state of disaster and have the President even impose stricter restrictions on society? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, House Chairperson. And thanks to hon member. Indeed, I mean, the tighter controls are also not just creating pain for a society but also having an impact negatively on the economy, which is struggling itself, and I think you all know that Covid at all contributed to our economic growth and not growing in the expected focused and targeted figures.
And therefore, the government is quite sensitive really to just rush for lockdowns, and even now as we are entering fourth wave, we will then have to look at other measures to control movements, to control the super spreaders whatever they are and whatever they had been identified and informed by signs and also informed by what is happening in the health sector, particularly the hospitals that are filling up.
At some point we will then have then to begin to regulate and then determine ... [Interjections.] ... These are the differentiated aspects so that we don’t then go for total lockdown but also, we then have to look at those differentiated methodologies of control because at the end we had to control the spread so that we can save lives but at the same time not harm the economy.
And if only we can call on our people also, I know that the are those who says they don’t believe in vaccinations, really to go for vaccinations and see if we cannot be unlock a lot of economic activities and social life that people are yearning for. But for now we will use whatever measures that are there to safe lives whilst also ensuring that livelihoods continues. Thank you.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Thank you, House Chair. Deputy Minister, given that we have seen various new strains of the Covid-19 virus with new infections resulted in prolonged restrictions, and we do not want to be stuck in the perpetual state of lockdown, what measures our government currently put into place to lesson restrictions on those who have been fully vaccinated? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, House Chairperson. And thank you, hon member. Obviously vaccination as we are calling on our people really to do and I know there is a debate going on whether it should be mandatory or not mandatory. And then obviously there are those who are opting for free areas that would be only visited by vaccinated people but obviously there are those are already calling for
discrimination if such activity happens. At the work place there is quite a number of companies that are taking various decisions for their own employees.
And I think is a societal issue that all of us all then to begin to then see what else can we do to save life but at the same time to ensure that as many of us are vaccinated and those who are vaccinated have access to those areas that were prohibited in the past.
In soccer as you will know, therefore that, you can’t go to the stadium unless you are vaccinated and this is just but a few of those examples that are merging. We hope therefore that association groups, companies, individuals, NGOs and everybody will then also make their own determination in a way that is thus accommodate but at the same time made those who do not want to vaccinate also feel wanting to belong but also to see if they cannot also opt for the vaccination so that they can enjoy those particular safer sports. The world is reacting differently to a different situation that is new to all of us. And we hope therefore that as these measures comes in there will be a buy in and a societal awareness and quantisation has also to be embark on so that we can move all of us in the same direction. Thanks very much, Chairperson.
Question 377:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you very much, House Chairperson, there is currently a total of eight traditional leadership disputes involving the department, which are before the courts, namely the AmaHlubi kingship dispute, the VhaVenda kingship dispute, rescission application by AbaThembu baseRhode, AmaMpondo kingship dispute, Bapedi kingship dispute, AmaMpondomise kingship dispute, AmaZulu kingship dispute and the AmaXhosa kingship dispute. As this cases are still before courts, we may not disclose further details on their merits or otherwise.
The department has the following interventions for those traditional leadership disputes that are not before the courts. The Traditional and Khoisan Leadership Act 3 of 2019 has been passed into law, and section 59 therefore provides an enabling process in terms of which disputes can be referred to the President and premiers for investigations. The department has assisted kingships, queenships, principal traditional leadership royal families in the development of their customary laws of succession and genealogies to guide their processes of identifying their leaders for submission to the
President for recognition as some of the disputes arises as to who should be ascending to the throne.
To date, the department has developed customary laws of succession and genealogies for seven kingships, queenships, principal traditional leadership. The Department of Traditional Affairs is currently developing guidelines for royal families on the development of customary laws of succession and genealogies and capacitating them in this regard. The guidelines will be finalised by the end of the current financial year. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Mvana, will you switch off your microphone. Hon Mkhaliphi, my apologies, you may continue.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I am very happy because you are the Deputy Minister of Traditional Affairs. I am very happy that amongst list that you mentioned is the Zulu Kingdom. Therefore, the question that I have for you Deputy Minister is as follows: Is
the highest profile of these cases surely be the one relating to the Zulu kingdom?
IsiZulu:
Le esematheni kulezinsuku.
English:
Some sections of the society are the view that your department is secretly in support of those who do not want King Misuzulu to ascend to the throne and that you have been using non-ANC members of the royal family to frustrate the process. Please Deputy Minister, as you work with the Minister, tell us here and tell the nation what practical steps you have taken to support King Misuzulu up until all these matters have been resolved. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you hon member for the question. It is not true that there are any secret meetings that I have been engaged with anyone in the Zulu royal family, either using non-ANC or any kind of people to not support the current appointed Zulu king
– it is not true. However, engagements that are taking place are open and transparent, with everyone to help in finding a
solution. We are also sensitive that because some of the issues are in court, it is not easy for us to enter that particular space because government cannot take sides when matters are still before the courts.
We then also have to respect the processes where some members have decided to take this matter to court. We will await the court processes to see and come out with the help where we can with any ideas and advices as and when we get approached by all sides and without this meeting becoming secret. Therefore, this other information that the hon Mkhaliphi has, we are not aware of it but definitely everything is above board and not in secret, and we do talk to everybody and all sides. Thank you.
Mr B M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson and still on disputes, Deputy Minister, the male dominated culture and systems of traditional leadership at times constitute gender oppression. Therefore, the inclusion of women in traditional leadership structures should not only be seen in the context of transforming the institution of traditional leadership but the development of customary law in line with the Constitution.
I would like to know with the promulgation of the Traditional and Khoisan Leadership Act, what definitive role will be played by women in the development of customary law to ensure equality? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you very much, House Chairperson and thank you hon member for the question. Indeed, we live in a society that is in transformation and that also has pushed forward the agenda on gender parity and all facets of society - it be religious or traditional or any. They are now beginning to look at their own systems, their own Constitutions, their own existing documents that continues to discriminate against women - that includes the traditional leaders who are also engaging on a such, even though it is not in a documented format. It is more of a patriarchy issue that we ought to engage with and deal with as a society in South Africa.
Indeed, the laws that we have also passed through Parliament, are giving a lot of space for women participation in the traditional leadership institutions, including the national houses, provincial houses and local houses of traditional leaders and also at the level where ubukhosi [sovereignty] is
being practiced that women also must be in leadership positions – in those positions of responsibilities.
However, there has been an identification by the sector itself
– an acknowledgement by them that the culture practice still has those elements and they have identified certain cultural practices that unfortunately are still being practiced – that are looking down upon women and undermining them. We have identified one of the seven subject matters that the traditional leadership will be engaging on to ensure that women’s rights are respected, without any fear or favour but that women are to be promoted and all women can rise on their own and be leaders in those institutions. Thank you very much.
Ms E R J SPIES: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, your department has allocated substantial resources towards the support of the House of Traditional Leaders. The department further appointed highly paid officials to deal with all matters concerning traditional leaders, yet we have disputes and court cases. Deputy Minister, in light of this, does your department have the actual expertise to deal with and develop proper disputes, resolution processes and frameworks for the different cultural groups. Deputy Minister, because in my experience on oversight in the North West
province and in committee meetings, it is indicated otherwise. Deputy Minister, I would really love to hear your response on this. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you hon member for the question. Indeed, some of these disputes as you said are at the provincial level, but certain provinces do not have that necessary capacity, and while engaging with the MECs of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in those provinces is that there need to be that capacity developed to manage and handle whatever nature of disputes. I am not referring to those that are in court because most of the time, the family members decide or royal family members will then go to court.
I think if you know, in North West, they almost have close to
10 cases that are in court and forever some of those cases have been in court. Yes, we do have officials with requisite knowledge – well-paid officials but when a dispute is at a family level, it is not an easy thing because now it’s family versus family in that particular aspect. When a dispute is in court, it is not also easy because the sub judice clause will also apply and we ought to move sensitively to that safely to
guide and see if they cannot get out of court and find a settlement. But the department is not well resourced, I must say. I heard you saying that it is a well-resourced department
– it is not well resourced enough. That is the issue.
The Minister met with the National House of Traditional Leaders last week and we would be looking at how further to resource and engage the Minister of Finance to help in the resource capacity of the department and also the local houses and the provincial houses of traditional leaders. We also met with the MECs. They were also raising the similar issue that the resources that are coming from the direction of the traditional leadership sector are very limited and yet it is a sector that has a lot of challenges. We would then be engaging on that particular issue. Thank you very much.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, most of the disputes on traditional leadership that are currently before the courts and some that have been recently decided could lead to drastic changes in customary law and its principles of succession. This could lead to tensions that could destabilise traditional communities. What measures, if any, is the department taking to mitigate such
risks of destabilisation of traditional communities. Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you hon member. I think we will then have to engage as the department to a formula that used to exist. We discontinued it almost three years ago because these cases are not coming to an end – it is true. And the more there are disputes and we leave the courts to decide these matters is not the way to go because some of the disputes are customary. And the courts, as they use the Roman law as a way to resolve some of the disputes might not be enough confidence to deal with this.
We used to have what we call the dispute resolution establishment committees where we will appoint individual men and women whenever these disputes arise. We will then refer these matters to them to then go deeper into the customary aspects of successions, genealogies and bring in the historical evidence and material and begin to also look at the customs of that particular national group and remind them in terms of their own customs also. Since we discontinued it, we can see that there is an increase of cases that are going to
the courts. But obviously, if we are to resuscitate it, we will need additional resources.
It’s a matter that I think the department must go back and look at and see if we cannot bring back that particular system. It used to work and we were able to resolve quite a number of disputes using this model without them ending up in courts. And that is why you only saw a few of them ending up in courts. I think, hon member, we shouldn’t kill the customary way of resolutions which is an African value system that we really ought to pride ourselves in and continue to be adaptive to the new conditions of constitutionalism, democracy and the republic system. Thank you very much.
Question 364:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): [Applause.] Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The Minister of Local Government is responsible, amongst other things, for section 72 and 75. Specifically to this question, I will stick to section 72 which makes regulations and guidelines in terms of human resource matters with regard to the staffing and capacitation at local government.
As of September 2021, you all may know, we have promulgated the municipal staff regulations for staff members below the management echelon. Why below the management echelon is because section 56 and 57 were long promulgated to deal with executive directors and directors. So these regulations are aimed at professionalising the local government sector even at the middle strata of management but across all the occupational levels as well. They are also aimed generally at professionalising the sector by ensuring that there are proper staff establishments, recruitment selections, appointments, performance management, at a lower level and other career development areas.
So, as part of this implementation, a comprehensive sector wide skills audit will be conducted, identify the competency gap, the root causes and capacitation as we have already started in the new term with the induction of councillors from the Monday of last week to ensure that the skills development and its interventions is properly done. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr F D XASA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, the Minister of Public Service and Administration has published on the gazette the professionalization of the
public service framework. This made the point that public service and all spheres of government must be insulated from politics or political parties. This is critical to ensure that the political ... [Inaudible.] ... interface is free of corruption, maleficence and the abuse of power.
Would it not be more prudent to rather focus on the implementation of the professionalization of the public service framework at local government instead of issuing your regulations which would require a development of new monitoring and evaluation tools? Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker and thank you very much hon member for the question. The regulations are important. They are enshrined according to section 154 of the Constitution of South Africa to support, from Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs developmental point of view, municipalities in how they manage and deal with their functions. There will be no repetition and a process which needs to be reset again in terms of monitoring and evaluation.
They are focused with nine key areas which deals with the interpretation and application of the law, the staff establishment and job descriptions, performance management, skills audit, dispute and disciplinary code to ensure the issues and the facts of consequence management and the procedures. Of course, coupled with that, will be the issues of remuneration which deals with how staff needs to be remunerated and dealt with in regard to the public service regulation. So this will ensure that these regulations will ensure that besides professionalization there is requisite skills that we all complain about and expertise that will be brought at the local government sphere and it would also ensure consistency of development and measurements of people skills by ensuring that there is competency that is served to the public. Thank you very much.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, a big reason why the public sector can’t attract skills and talented people and why we have skills crisis is because of cadre deployment. The full policy of the ANC adopted in 1997 to deploy agents of your party into positions of the state, including constitutional institutions. Deputy Minister, would it not assist if you can here today, reject the unconstitutional practice of cadre deployment? Would that not
assist local government, especially those few in rural areas still under ANC control to perform better? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The government of South Africa does not have a policy called cadre deployment. As I have indicated, we find our regulations as enshrined in section 72, section 154, which I have just quoted previously. Skills audit are being performed.
Municipalities that have begun the processes of the new term have been encouraged in writing by the Minister to perform their own skills audit.
Possibly with time, Comrade Chair, [Laughter.] we would be able to share with what needs to be given and done with regard to skills audit. In fact, skills audit performed at the City of Tshwane found one to be a bouncer than where he was employed. Thank you very much.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, we can agree that municipalities are deteriorating, but there is no plan that the ANC can put forward that can save the situation if cadre deployment persists. We must agree
that merit is the only measure that must be considered when appointment in municipalities is made because it has direct effect on service delivery. Deteriorated municipalities are being used as cash cows with corrupt, to such an extent that respectable professionals do not want a position at a municipality. Would the Deputy Minister then agree that affirmative action in municipal appointments must be in there to ensure that the best person for the position is appointed to stop the deterioration of municipalities? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Deputy Speaker, employment equity does not violate the rules and regulations of government. Its ethos is found from the public service regulations as enshrined in the Public Service Act of 195. It requires that you deal with the requirement of the person, amongst other things it will be the qualifications, which is the RVQ 13.
Secondly it will be the experience of the job at hand. It deals with the portion of the skills development. It also deals with the portion of skills rehabilitation.
So if you talk about empowerment, imperatives are only two on empowerment. Its women, which represent gender and young
people. And they are not used as a form of tokenism. They are qualified with degrees, interviewed, go through a selection of processes and then appointed. [Applause.] That’s what the Employment Equity Act of South Africa describes. We will deal with issues of cadre deployment, as I have said. And I have also drawn an indication that it is ... [Inaudible.] ... and incorrect for anybody to believe that employment equity brings cadre deployment. You do skills audit. For example, in the Municipality of ... [Inaudible.] ... the major first started the first time and said, I am going to do the audit. We authorised it and they are busy with the audit as we are talking and they will make sure that wherever they have to capacitate ... Yes, I have been a mayor of Polokwane and there was nothing like that either. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Thank you Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, one of the biggest challenges facing local government is the escalating debt levels and that been obviously relating to having the required skilled officials and internal audit capacities. Now one of the experts of that is the debt owed by consumers to the municipalities. But the second more concerning is the R46 billion owed by the municipalities.
Deputy Minister, what has been done to reduce these debt levels and to improve the officials that are having to deal
with the issues of debt both owned to municipalities and owed by municipalities? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Thank you, Deputy speaker. Thank you, hon member for the question. It is a fact that municipalities - with regard to revenue collection and also sustainability financially is a challenge. Currently, as you may know, a report which was taken to Cabinet dealt with around 39 municipalities which are in financial distress in South Africa. Amongst other things, Cabinet formed a committee that is led by the Deputy President to look amongst two debt issues which are a problem in the municipalities. One, the debt to Water Boards. Two, the debts to Eskom. Three, putting up of smart meters as a way of ensuring a user pay to communities who are unable to do that. A relief to municipalities to ensure that they are able to increase their indigent books or their indigent funds available to them to caution the effects of COVID-19 which have been negative on a quite number of people who as a result as lack of economic activity, have lost their jobs.
I do believe that with such measures, the R46 billion will reduce the levels, but also the municipalities are encouraged
on a day-to day-basis to ensure that they must also put to effect, their own credit management policies which is to switch off electricity and water to consumers who afford to pay but are not able to pay back. So those are the four key measures which has been put in place to ensure that we assist municipalities to deal with the debt. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Question 385:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, according the legislation drafting process map, the Bill must be submitted to the Cabinet, in order to request for approval, to publish the Bill in the government gazette, to solicit inputs and comments. The process requires the Bill to undergo certain tests before submission to the Cabinet. This includes the submission of the Bill to the Presidency, for socioeconomic impact assessment. Then to the Office of the Chief State Law Advisor for quality assurance and precertification.
Upon receiving the legal opinion, from office of the Chief State Law Advisor, the Bill must be submitted to the director’s general cluster for deliberation. It is important to note that all the processes mentioned above are
administered by the respective organs of state, according to their own internal processes and set timeframes, determined by the number of submissions they receive from the department.
Therefore, the department have to comply with all their requirements before publishing the Bill in the government gazette. The department intends to introduce the National Council on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Bill
No 452672021 to Parliament in the current financial year. The exact date for the introduction of the Bill to Parliament cannot be set here and now, until the consultation with
National Economic Development and Labour Council, NEDLAC is held. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister considering the rise number of the reported cases of gender-based violence since the inception of lockdown in March 2020, and the statistic revealed recently by the Gauteng Province Member of Executive Council, MEC, for Department of Social Development which shows that South Africa’s average for gender-based violence, gbv prior to the pandemic was five times higher than the global average statistic, which has worsened since the lockdown. Whether the Minister is considering giving more attention to this urgent matter within the 16 Days of Activism
against gbv. What are the relevant details? I thank you Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, we have spent almost two years consulting all relevant stakeholders. We have followed all the processes; all that remains is that we go to the final stages of presenting this Bill. Because we leave amongst our people, we feel the pain, we participate in painful funerals, matches and so on and so on. What is important is, we had to follow the procedure painful as it is.
Go to funeral yes, watch a girl child being cut into pieces by a saw blade, painful. See a 93-year old woman, being raped by a 25-year old, painful, but akusalayo [at the end of it all.] we must follow procedure and we did. The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, developed the first draft Bill and handed to the department to finalise. The Bill is going according to plan, as I said earlier on, going through Director Generals.
The department gazetted the National Council of Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Bill No 45267 for public comments.
Public consultations on the Bill have been held, with all the
nine provinces. As I said, we intend to introduce the Bill to Parliament in the current financial year. Thank you.
Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker and thank you to the Minister for the response. Minister, what interventions will the department put in place, particularly in local government, noting the part of the challenges in the implementation of the National Strategic Plan, NSP, relate to incorporating the plan into functions of various departments? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, we, when I
say ‘we’ I mean the department and all the departments in the
Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, and indeed the Cabinet have resolved that – as I said earlier on, real people live in provinces and municipalities. So, all that I said should be implemented down on the ground. The killing, the maiming, the beating, the abuse, the femicide must stop right there.
Utilising the council and all other instruments of government. That’s where we would also be seeing, indeed the District Development Model.
That which we developed nationally, is meant for our people, it will have to go to the provinces and districts and local municipalities, but akusalayo [at the end of it all.] hon member, is that this time around as we go to the 16 Days of Activism against abuse, it should be that, we all mean that my next door neighbour will not cry and I say it’s not my business, by that I mean the civil society is also on board.
We have consulted widely, we will continue. 16 Days of Activism is a United Nations, UN initiative, but with South Africa, we say 365 days, women should feel safe.
Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, Minister hon Mpiti suggested you resign, perhaps retirement might be a better option for you. Minister, I understand the need to rush and introduce the National Council on GBVF, Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Bill to Parliament before the end of the year. However, rushing public participation limits buy in and interrogation of the Bill. It is of utmost important to listen to as many stakeholders as possible and not simply those who may only agree with you. Minister, please explain how your department will prioritise more extensive public participation in order to hear a range of voices for buy in of this Bill.
The current participation mechanism the department current has
is very small and is not wide ranging. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, there is no time to wait, and I will say, I saw two years of moving out and consulting with civil society, with unions, with men’s groups, with churches, with taxi associations, with ordinary men and women, those who really wanted to come to the party.
Consultation will not end with the adoption of the council. The council gives us more leverage to continue educating, advocating and making sure that – as I said earlier on South African women are faced with two pandemics. One, COVID-19, two gender-based violence and femicide. And, the second one is
man-made, is us and we can, working together do away with it. Thank you.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Okay, Deputy Speaker, let me take it, she is struggling with the network. Minister between 25 November and today countless women have been murdered in this country. The recent statistics by the Minister of Police shows that we are not winning this war of femicide. With this level of crimes against women, new laws will not help the situation until we get the institutions working again. What steps have you taken
to ensure that the institution of criminal justice as well as those meant to support women are up to task? Thank you very much Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, maybe I should call this by its rightful name. Femicide is known men killing women. It’s actually husbands killing wives, is boyfriends killing boyfriends, it’s man in the neighbourhood killing a girl in the neighbourhood. So, it is of paramount important that it begins at home. It starts from where it should. We will never have policeman guarding every bedroom in every locality to do away with gender-based violence. We have to work together, to deal with this matter ... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Mkhaliphi please you can’t do that, you can’t be interrupting the Minister while she is answering you. That’s out of order completely. Go ahead Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: We will need all the security cluster and the Inter-Ministerial Committee, but the entire Cabinet, both from national to province, to all the localities. But, it also
would begin with the neighbourhood that the social fabric of the South Africa, of Nkosi sikelela [God bless.] the one which we say we are one, that we protect women and girl children. It should start now and it is possible. It is not just a responsibility of the police, yes police, but this is a societal problem, it needs the society to stand up and say you and I, not in our names. Thank you.
Question 369:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just one second.
IsiZulu:
Ngicela ukuthi ...
English:
Please switch off your volume.
IsiZulu:
Niyangiphazamisa manje. Niphazamisa mina manje la. Ngiyabonga.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Within the Fusion Center, created under the anticorruption task team to prioritise investigations regarding Covid related corruption, Department of Public Service and Administration has a responsibility to, firstly, to ensure that, public service employees are identified from a list of suspects verifying an information against persal system.
Secondly, to coordinate and monitor that disciplinary steps are taken against the identified employees. The Department of Public Service and Administration has no mandate to perform investigations. Once the officials are detected on the list of suspects, the departments where the individual official are employed, are notified. Law enforcement agencies assist these departments to open criminal cases and to investigate cases, to ensure that disciplinary action is taken when criminal cases are opened.
The Department of Public Service and Administration provides the departments with guidance and formulates standard disciplinary charges to be instituted by the departments. The Department of Public Service and Administration coordinates the implementation of disciplinary action to ensure adherence
to the timeframes for finalising cases and supports departments with sourcing of initiators or chairpersons where such is required.
Thereafter, the Department of Public Service and Administration monitors if the departments institutes disciplinary action, and if not, to provide reasons. Once found guilty, public servants will not find their way back into any public office. As the Department of Public Service and Administration amended the application for employment forms, Z83, to make it compulsory for the effective employees to disclose all pending disciplinary cases and criminal convictions. The use of the amended Z83 form was made compulsory with effect to January 2020, and misrepresentation is considered a misconduct, which may result in the termination of the employee’s service. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response. Deputy Minister, with reference to public servants having benefitted unlawfully in the COVID-
19 grants, whereby even convicted inmates were found to have been benefited from the grants. Has there been an improvement
in ICT interventions to detect such unlawful conduct? I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The Department of Public Service and Administration does not manage ICT interventions. So, this is outside our mandate. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, this Administration has indeed made a lot of noise about building an ethical state. However, a reply to a recent question posed by hon Gondwe to the Minister of Social Development reveal that, a staggering 170 000 public servants, they illegally receive other social grants, a child support grants, foster care grants and old age pensions every month.
This means that, nearly 15% of all public servants are actively involved in stealing grants costing R200 million every month from the poorest of the poor. Would the Deputy Minister agree that this endemic theft by public servants proves that her department has completely failed to build the ethical state they promised us? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I would disagree with the assertion by the hon member to say that the department is failing in its mandate to create an ethical state. In terms of section 3 of the Public Service Act, we have created norms and standards that articulates clearly the ethical standards that are supposed to be across government, and we are of the opinion that, also with the establishment of the Public Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit that we have just launched lately, that we are on the right track, as the Department of Public Service and Administration to really decisively deal with what is referred to as corruption.
Hon member, you might actually think that there is too much corruption because of the fact that, on the day-to-day basis you hear of information as to how the Department of Public Service and Administration and the government of South Africa is dealing with corruption, something that is new in this country. We are at the right path, and we are confident that we will at a point, finally and decisively deal with the corruption in government. The present government does not actually condone corruption. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now it’s the time for hon Komane.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Deputy Speaker, it’s Ms Motsepe.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh okay. We must be informed about these changes; it helps to know in advance. Go ahead.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, your public servants are benefiting from the COVID-19 grant, and many are doing business with the very state that they are working for. What are the loopholes in the public service that allow this kind of corruption to flourish, and what are you doing to close those loopholes? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon member, I have actually indicated about the units that we have set up, I indicated about the sections within the Public Service and Administration Act, that helps to deal with corruption. When it comes to public servants are doing business with government, we have been in a position to use a persal system to manage to identify the public servants are doing business with government.
The other thing that we are busy doing is consequence management to see to it that, every public servant that is doing business with government, goes through a disciplinary process so that, once and for all, we can be in a position to manage to deal with this. That is one of the biggest reasons why we have waged with government when the public servants are doing business with government. We are on track with it, we are dealing with it and we have measures in place that helps us to manage to decisively deal with it. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms H DENNER: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, with regards to illegally gotten gains by some public servants, and specifically the planned lifestyle audit that will be conducted on state employees starting from February next year, according to the Department of Public Service and Administration quarterly bulletin, 42 ethics officers have been trained to carry out these lifestyle audits for more than 1,3 million state employees, that is about 31 000 lifestyle audit per ethics officer.
This seems to be an impossible task and it creates the impression that the Department of Public Service and Administration is not truly serious about these audits and
their outcomes. Is the department planning on appointing more ethics officers, and if so, how many and by when, and what is the timeline to finalise these lifestyle audits? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The Department of Public Service and Administration is really serious about conducting lifestyle audits. A process is set up, and what the hon member is worried about that there isn’t enough capacity, of which we are aware of. This means that, because it is a process that we are dealing with, it doesn’t necessary mean that measures that have been put in place, are actually final.
We will keep on evaluating what we have put in place to ensure that we will be in a position to come up with the system that manages in a way that is going to deal with the situation decisively and correct the situation. So basically what it means is that, we will continue to evaluate whatever system that has been put in place now. Therefore, if the system that has been created now, is not something that has been fully capacitated, capacity will be created to ensure that we deal with the lifestyle audits. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Question 392:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, good afternoon. Thank you very much. Let me appreciate the question from hon Malatsi. In short what I wanted to say, hon Deputy Speaker, is that the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation would have completed the preliminary assessment of Ministers. The performance scorecards were shared with the Ministers for their comments before they are submitted to the President. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation will submit the consolidated performance to President Cyril Ramaphosa by the end of 2021, and in this regard the President will engage with the affected Ministers and decide on the cause of action for poor performance.
Therefore, whatever that cause will be that is in the wisdom of the President. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr M S MALATSI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. This is, indeed, a clever cop out by the Minister from what the actual question is. The reality of the matter is that the introduction of performance agreements was introduced as early as two years ago. Therefore, what we want to know is based on the performance scorecards and previous assessments, can he provide at least one Minister who he knows that action has been taken or there have been reprimanded for missing their performance targets because we are already halfway into the
Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MSTF, period for this administration. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. The President signed performance contracts in 2021 financial year. We are saying that what we have processed and what we will submit after that we will, therefore, expect the President to respond to that regard. I prefer not to respond to creativity of language by hon Malatsi. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Ms M NTULI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the Minister. The Minister elaborated and outlined, now I don’t see myself asking any further question. Thank you, Minister.
isiZulu:
Nk N V MENTE: ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Weeh Jesu!
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Ufuna ukuthini?
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Mncwaa! Mcwaa mncwaa!
AN HON MEMBER: Order!
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Yini le manje?
Afrikaans:
Ms L N MOSS: Watter taal is dit wat die vrou ... [Onhoorbaar.] Sy is buite orde!
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are out of order. I can’t
believe this ... [Interjections] ...
Ms L N MOSS: Deputy Speaker, this woman is not behaving herself as an honourable ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon Moss ...
Afrikaans:
... jy jouself is buite order!
English:
You can’t ... [Inaudible.] ... hon members, you’re really out of order. What is this ... [Interjections.] ... Hon members, I’m talking, hon Ntlangwini, please just hold on. Hon members, we are in the process of Ministers responding to questions
that you’ve asked for. What interests do you have in not having this process go ahead by your disruptions, because that’s what they are. You can’t be doing that surely. In fact, I propose that we proceed and ask hon Komane to ask the next supplementary question.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. It’s again hon Motsepe. Minister, what do you say to the perception out there that the performance agreements that members of Cabinet signed are just a box-ticking exercise. Mr Mbalula has presided over a rapidly deteriorating rail network system. Mr Cele is clueless about fighting crime. Mr Gordhan has overseen the destruction of Eskom and all state-owned enterprises. What has been done to make this members account for such a spectacular destruction of public service? I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Thanks for the member’s follow-up question and highlighting the issues she has highlighted. However, it doesn’t change the fact that, Deputy Speaker, we said as the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation that there is a role that we play in this regard. We have given a progress report and once we have finished that work we’ve said that it will be put before the President. How the President deal with the matters
that the member has raised that is the matter which we will cross the bridge when we get there. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I think the calibre of answers that all of these Ministers are giving today, really, it’s a point of concern, Deputy Speaker, and we must raise it here. There’s no interest of them of responding to any of the questions. They might as well just let the researchers give us written responses than for them to waste the whole three hours of the House sitting today by giving nothing.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, I suggest that you do that in writing and bring it to the Speaker’s office so that we attend to it. Let’s go to the Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I’m not sure what to respond to now, Deputy Speaker, because I responded to, I think it’s hon Motsepe.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You do want to respond to that, go ahead, hon Minister, I wasn’t expecting you to do that, but go ahead.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: No, no, no, I’m not
responding, Deputy Speaker. All I could say if you so allow me is that hon Ntlangwini ... [Interjections.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. No, Deputy Speaker, the Minister already responded. Why are you giving him a second option, unless you are asking him to respond to my point of order. It’s wrong what you are doing. You are creating a wrong precedence ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, can you keep quiet. It’s the authority of the Chair to decide who ... [Inaudible.] ... don’t debate and throw words into my mouth, I’m speaking right now. Why do you assume that you have authority to do what you’re doing? You’re out of order. Hon Minister, please finish the point you’re making.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: No, all I’m saying, hon Deputy
Speaker, is that we will always ... [Interjections.]
Mr T M LANGA: There is no point!
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Musa ukudelela wena mhlonishwa uLanga ...
English:
... please man.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... we will always take note of the concerns expressed regarding how we respond to questions. However, in doing so we will not at all costs try to be creative and state things that don’t exist so that we can make members happy. Therefore, the point I’m making is that I am candid in my response based on the facts of the work that we’re doing.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Ja, but, Deputy Speaker, you can’t be saying to a member that “uyadelela” that is unparliamentary, and you must withdraw it, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There’s nothing unparliamentary about
that. You are getting into that space too, please.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Okay ...
IsiZulu:
... ngakho uyadelela nawe manje?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, hon member, can you please ... you are the Deputy Chief Whip in the first place, you can’t yourself be ... [Interjections.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, Deputy Speaker, but you can’t just speak as you like to the members ... [Interjections.] ... provided by the rules of Parliament, Deputy Speaker. If you want us to respect you, please respect us back, Deputy Speaker. Lead by example.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
IsiZulu:
... ngikhuluma isiNtu. Uma ungahambisani nendlela esivumelana ngayo la ngaphakathi kusho ukuthi udelela iNdlu. Awumukeli ukuthi kumele kuhanjwe kanjani, ufuna ukuhamba ngendlela ethandwa nguwena.
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Sekela Somlomo, ngabe kungcono uma kade unguSomlomo wase-Free State ...
English:
... according to the list that was submitted because you are not ... [Inaudible.] ... now, Deputy Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Uyadelela manje.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can you stop this. Hon members, please, you will be thrown out, there’s no question about it. There’s no question about it ...
Afrikaans:
Jy gaan uitgegooi word! Enige tyd van nou af!
IsiZulu:
Nk N V MENTE: Ziyakhala! Ziyakhala manje!
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: ... [Aluzwakali.] ... buka-ke isiBhunu manje? [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
... Ntombovuyo, can you switch off that member. Switch off Ntombovuyo. Switch her off, please. [Applause.] She must go, she doesn’t ...
IsiZulu:
Nk N V MENTE: Ziyakhala!
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hamba sisi, hamba.
English:
With the greatest of respect, you are really behaving as if you need to go home and have a good bath. You need to relax. [Laughter.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I won’t take that point of order from you because you are continuing in the same manner that I said you shouldn’t.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Is a different point of order, sir.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the answer is no. The answer is no.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: But it’s wrong what you’re saying that a member must go and take a bath. It’s wrong. How dare you ... [Inaudible.] ... address on a person’s hygiene? How dare you? It’s wrong, Deputy Speaker. It’s wrong.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ... can you switch off her microphone. Switch her off and get rid of her, please.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No, you are wrong. You are wrong, when will you take a bath yourself. Go and take a bath yourself.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take her off, please. I’m done with that. Let’s proceed and I will not take any other story on this matter, please. Hon members, the next question is 374 ... [Interjections.] ... hon Singh asked the last supplementary question, and the Minister must respond.
Mr N SIGNH: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, you have not yet forgotten me ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry, he has not, go ahead. Go ahead.
Mr N SIGNH: Hon Deputy Speaker, it seems that today from the response to the most of the Ministers they are kicking for touch. However, having said that, hon Minister, corruption seemingly goes on unabated in many government departments and state-owned enterprise. Now, across all the performance agreements signed with members of Cabinet, reference is made to the requirements of establishing Ethics Committees to fight
and prevent corruption. Are you aware of the existence of such Ethic Committees and do you have in your own department such an Ethics Committee to fight and prevent corruption, and part
(b) is the ability to answer questions effectively is that one of the criteria even for Ministers in the Presidency because today we didn’t see some good examples of that. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. The issue of Ethic Committees, to hon Singh, is a good practice, but which department has and which department have, I do not have those details as I’m speaking to you now. Being in this department where I am in the Presidency is not a matter that I’ve interfaced with, but I will be happy if such a committee exists. However, in other departments I’ve seen it and it’s a good practice. But, having said all that I want to state it very categorically that there is a lot of interventions this government is doing on issues of corruption: Special Investigating Unit, SIU, work that is going on expecting final reports and a number of areas regarding personal protective equipment, PPEs, around December. The President continues to issue proclamations at all material times when information of corruption is put
before him. Some people are before court, there have been liquidation or freezing of accounts in a number of areas.
There’s quite an amount of ... [Inaudible.] ... done in this area, hon Singh. If we are called upon sometime to give a full report about it, I think we are capable of doing that, to demonstrate that this government when it comes to corruption there’s a lot that is being done. Are we perfect? I wouldn’t say that, there’s always going to be a room for improvement.
Thank you, hon Singh.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on point of order. Sir, I did not want to get involved in that fracas that you were trying to sort out earlier, but I think there’s something that I would like you to consider in so far as sitting precedence is concerned in terms of the rulings. Hon Ntlangwini raised a point of order and you made a ruling on it, but what became a complication is when you gave the Minister an opportunity to respond to that point of order. If you could please go back and study that so that you can give a consented ruling to avoid a precedence moving forward about a decision by the Chair having been taken that hon Ntlangwini must bring her matter in writing and then asking the Minister to actually respond to the issue that she has raised. It’s the matter that
I’m putting to you and asking you to look at ...
[Interjections.] ... Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will do that.
Question 374:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. The Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities has developed monitoring and evaluation framework and plan that identifies clear outcomes, indicators and time bound interventions that have to be implemented by various government departments and other stakeholders in order to ensure the achievements of the National Strategic Plan on gender-based violence and femicide targets.
The department uses monitoring and evaluation plan to monitor progress made by various departments to implement the National Strategic Plan and compiles monthly progress reports for submission to the presidency. The department currently does not have his own systems in place to detect information with regards to persons convicted of rape, but relies solely on the information obtained by the state security agencies through the vetting processes that all senior civil servant, are
subjected to prior appointments in the public service. Reference can also be made to the National register on sexual offenses. I thank you, Chair.
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, may I with your permission, take the follow-up due to connection problems. Thank you, hon Minister for your response. Hon Minister we appreciate that there are two aspects to this question, the one relating to public servants and the other relating to members who are public office bearers. We appreciate the response that you’ve given for the screening concerning public officials.
When it comes to persons who have been found guilty of rape who stand for public office or to be elected, we know that that’s governed by the Constitution and legislation which indicates a 12-month sentence. Clearly, however, this provision is subject to a five-year period. In other words, if you were convicted of rape five years prior to that, you can stand. Will the hon Minister agree that where we see a mayor who has been convicted of child rapist that this does not send a good message to the society and that, that five-year period should be relooked at given the high levels of gender-based violence that we see in society and given the monitoring
mechanisms that the Minister makes use of? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I really cannot agree more because the pain of the survivor lasts a lifetime not five years. As long as she lives she will remember that horrible day. So, we will definitely reconsider this because that’s what survivors tell us that it’s a lifetime wound. So, we cannot have one having five years and the other one living with the pain for a lifetime and it’s okay in a democratic South Africa. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Sesotho:
Mof C M PHIRI: Ke a leboha Motlatsi wa Modulasetulo.
Xitsonga:
Eka Muchaviseki, ndzi kombela ku tiva loko ndzawulo ya n’wina yi ri na tona tiphurogireme leti yi ti tirhisaka ku tirhisana na Ndzawulo ya Dyondzo ya le Swikolweni ku endlela ku dyondzisa vana va hina hi mhaka ya madzolonga lama simekiweke eka rimbewu na ku dlayeteriwa ka vaxisati na vununa byo biha exikarhi ka vana. Leswi ndzi swi vutisa hikuva hi vona milandzu yo hlaya ngopfu leyi humelelaka eswikolweni. Vana va
chovolana hi twa na hi milandzu ya ku xanisiwa hi swa masangu yi hlayile swinene. A ndzi kombela mi hlamusela Yindlu leyi leswaku tiphurogireme ta n’wina ti tirhisa ku yini naswona mi endla yini hi mhaka leyi na Ndzawulo ya Dyondzo ya le Swikolweni.
HOLOBYE EHOFISINI YA PRESIDENTE WA SWA VAMANANA, VANTSHWA NA
VATSONIWA: Inkomu, Muchaviseki. Vhiki leri hundzeke a hi ri na nhlengeletano na Xandla xa Holobye wa Dyondzo wa le Swikolweni hi ri karhi hi vulavula hi mhaka leyi ya vana lava tirhisaka matimba eka van’wana vana eswikolweni na leswaku endlelo lero tano ri vangiwa hi yini.
English:
I think we also need to go into getting the support of the psychologists. As far as working together is concerned, we had two days full with the Minister of Basic Education and her Deputy Minister and we are finalising a plans to have a session with the Minister of Higher Education. The main aim and objective in both is to really work with all sides and corners to bury gender-based violence and femicide.
Xitsonga:
Hi sungula kona exikolweni ku lavisisa leswaku va swi kuma kwihi vana lava swilo leswi va swi endlaka. Hikokwalaho ke, ku fanele ku burisaniwa na vatswari, tikereke na va mabindzu yo kala ya nga ri ya mfumo leswaku mhaka leyi yi ta hela. Ndza khensa.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, the recently elected Mayor of Kannaland Municipality, Jeffrey Donson is a convicted child rapist and his deputies are convicted fraudster. What message does it send to the public that in 2021, convicted child rapist can be elected to positions of responsibility? Have you, as the Minister in the Presidency for Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities engage with the parties involved in Kannaland to raise your views about the election of a child rapist as a mayor? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: I think it’s only fair that we get the facts and make sure that we do not reward wrong doing. As I said earlier on, those who have survived this they say it lasts for life. So, I think we will be consulting with all those responsible and involved to make sure that that matter gets attention. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr S L NGCOBO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, in the recent local government elections we have seen the re-election of Mr Jeffrey Donson as the Mayor of Kannaland Municipality.
This came after the ANC had entered into a coalition agreement with his party, the Independent Civic Organisation of South Africa, ICOSA. Mr Donson was convicted for the rape of a 15- year old child during his tenure as a mayor in 2008. His re- election is no doubt a slap in the face of the fight against gender-based violence in South Africa. Minister, would you agree that the ANC was wrong and that it should not have assisted in re-electing Mr Donson as a mayor given his past?
Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS
WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker - as I said earlier on - as a department and as a woman but now that I’m sitting on this chair as a department, I think we should get all the facts so that we are not seen to be rewarding perpetrators.
Like I said, those who are survivors say that it is so painful, it lasts a lifetime. So, we are using this opportunity to call upon the entire South African society that we need to hold hands. That is the only way we can bury this pandemic called gender-based violence and femicide. I thank you.
Question 372:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, in The Presidency, multiple tools have been deployed to assist with monitoring and evaluation of various programmes across the different spheres of government. The examples of those tools, amongst others, is what we call Integrated Monitoring Tools, for instance, biannual monitoring tool, local government management and improvement model to monitor progress towards achieving seven priorities as stated in 2019, the Presidential Hotline, Frontline Service Delivery Model, FSDM, Credibility Improvement Framework, CIF, state-owned entities, and the National Evaluation Policy Framework which covers assessment impact of government programmes, efficiencies and their effectiveness towards achievement of government intended outcomes and impact.
The main contribution made by this monitoring tools is the generation of evidence which influences policy development and implementation as well as inform an action for improved service delivery.
The data collected using monitoring tools provide decision- makers with evidence for costs correction on emerging service delivery issues, for example, the monitoring of COVID-19
vaccination hesitance and the Presidential Hotline, which the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation has been able, for instance, to address individual cases logged, which had a significant impact on the individual in some cases. The examples detailed above are an illustration of the benefits of applying monitoring tools and thereby enabling the availability of real time evidence to positively influence service delivery and achievement of policy outcomes and impacts.
Going forward, the following will be done to strengthen monitoring and reporting: Modernization of the state to support innovation and productivity including the national e- government strategy to be implemented; full implementation of all government priorities across all sectors through the District Development Model, DDM, in support of joined up government and local delivery; repurposing of the Presidential Hotline and the resolution system in order to have greater management involvement to ensure improvement in the resolution rate of the Presidential Hotline; expanding the use of technology and other monitoring capacity within the public service and citizens to enhance footprint; implementation of the SOE monitoring framework; and implementation of measures
by my Office to improve responses to our monitoring and findings.
One of the key things we are trying to reorganize, for instance, how we report to Parliament and to Cabinet and to try to translate the technical language that is commonly used by our officials to speak to the issues that are at the lips of the society, for instance, how does that technological report find expression on where employment is, poverty is and inequalities and report in the language that is commonly understood and that is usually articulated by the President during the state of the nation address. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Ms E M TLHAPE: Deputy Speaker, hon Tlhape, I will take the follow up question. Thanks Minister for alluding to the tools that you use for data collection and information gathering.
Provided that most of the monitoring and evaluation conducted by the department tends to adopt a quantity rather than quality reporting approach, will the department improve the manner in which it conducts monitoring and evaluation to ensure proper implementation and performance? Thanks, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Tlhape, you may have been aware that hon Mgweba is not available. Nothing is harmful to send a note to the table so that they pass it on to us. If they don’t, then that’s a problem if you have done so.
Ms E M TLHAPE: Deputy Speaker, I did it as and when I got to the chamber, very early. Thanks.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, it is the table that is not communicating. ... [Laughter.] ... You guys are in trouble. Okay. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker, I think hon Tlhape has raised a very fundamental question, we are working very hard since one got to this job to respond to what she has said. We go beyond what we always report during quarterly reports, targets, how many scores – 20 over seven or five over 10. Those issues, to Parliament and to our people do not say anything. If we translate them to explain, for instance, if we are dealing with the issue of lack of water in the Vaal, what does those scores and targets say about the water in the Vaal? If we are building a bridge, for instance, how far is the bridge? Is it half way or a quarter? That’s the language that is understood.
If we talk about employment and the baseline was unemployment of 34%, where is that unemployment now? Those are quality issues that hon Tlhape is talking about. That is the issue, ma’am, that we are working on. We hope in 2022-23, we will make sure that over and above those figures of seven over 10 and so on, we will go beyond and say, in practical terms, how is this language explained with regard to the state of the people, the poor and so on. When we go to report as politicians, we don’t discuss the targets and so on. People want to know what are we doing about their grant, when are we going to put water and lights in their area and when are we going to close the potholes. They do not talk this language that is technically a medium of exchange amongst us. That is the question as I am talking to you. Our teams are at work day and night. We want to find a way to talk that quality. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr M S MALATSI: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, Minister, one of the key measurable outputs monitoring the performance of Ministers and departments is the finalization of performance agreements for directors-general. Our committee learned last week that there were three directors-general who haven’t had their performance agreements finalized with their Ministers and we were promised that we will be provided with
the information. Can you use this opportunity to provide us with the details of those three directors-general who have not finalized their performance agreements and their respective departments? Thanks, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Mahlatsi, in
appreciating hon Mahlatsi’s comments ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, he is hon Malatsi.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Okay, hon Deputy Speaker, I just want to say upfront that that is one area hon Malatsi we are confronted with. It’s not only those three, it’s a number of those issues that we are dealing with in as far as such similar issues are concerned. I am still awaiting a report because we had asked the team to deal with those issues.
Whether they are three or not, the problem does exist and we hope to come and report to you. I do not have the details at the moment. It is an existing problem.
Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, it is Motsepe again, Minister, there is a generalized destruction of the public service through corruption and incompetence.
Departments are unable to develop attainable strategic plans
and those that do are unable to implement them. You are responsible for performance monitoring. What have you found to be the most important stumbling block to performance management in the public service? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon Motsepe, there’s a number of areas we have come across. One of them is what hon Tlhape has already spoken about - numbers versus quality - while the other is the issue of language. It is a very critical thing. The language needs to coincide. The other issue is a common application of what we call the science of causality. That is how do we apply what is called the theory of change, for example, if people say they are going to build a car, when do we say a plan is in place to do so? There are key elements that we must be able to analyse and say if you are organized in this manner, when you kick these activities into motion, they are able to create a predetermined way from one to the other to that intended output, outcome or impact. That is the language we are working hard to sort out as I am talking to you right now. Our teams are planning for what we call national annual strategic plan, NASP, where the Cabinet has ensured that there is a focused planning so that when the Minister of Finance start allocating resources, those resources are informed by the core plan that
is composite that seeks to deal with the catalytic issues. For that to happen, departments are supposed to produce what we call annual performance plans, APPs. We are analyzing APPs to look at the state of readiness as to whether the manner in which they are organized to do what they claim they are going to do is of such a nature that the theory of change is taken care of, that when they kick-start, one thing will move to the other. We discover some of the things that we have not been checking. Those are some of the issue; that is language, simplicity and ensuring that we do evaluation as we do monitoring. In some other departments, you’ll find that ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, the theory of change is something that we might need to apply in this House and in government. But having said that, hon Minister, I was a very proud member of the Portfolio Committee on Monitoring and Evaluation in 2010 when it was founded and when we were looking at what its role and responsibilities should be. I was very proud that it was going to monitor and give us assessments of what government departments, etc, are doing.
One of the challenges that was expressed then was the issue of turf protection, where government departments were not willing to answer to a super arching department in The Presidency
about their performance monitoring. I want to know if this challenge still exists? Our government departments co- operating with the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation and giving them proper statistics for us to be able to get the kind of report that you are talking about, hon Minister. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, I think what hon Singh is raising is not just a national government issue, it cuts across. Even when I was a mayor and an MEC. The weakness that undermines government at all material times to make the needle move is an attempt to work in silo space and not understanding that collectively with another institution, you are able to gather energy that makes better difference than you can do alone.
That problem, hon Singh, does exist but on the current post where I am now, and the current colleagues that I am working with, I will be very careful to make that evaluation because I am still awaiting their responses with regard to the critiques and the reviews we are making about their annual performance plans for next year. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Question 363:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T NKADIMENG): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. The Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, requires that all municipalities table their draft budgets, the adopted budgets, quarter reports, annual budgets amongst other things to ensure transparency and accountability, and also to be able to account to the Auditor-General and other bodies like the National Treasury on how the funds of the municipalities have been utilized.
Prior the adoption of the budget, that process, by law, we are compelled as the only sphere to talk about our budget requirements and needs to the public. So, the Integrated Development Plan, IDP, forces municipalities to go to the public for community participation, involving communities in seeking by in municipal programmes that will come. That, in turn, gives and inform the municipal plan for the year to be undertaken and also to make sure that the IDP take cognisance of the developmental strategies which are being formed by community development areas, strategies and other organs of the state, who participate within the municipal process to ensure that the framework of what will be adopted as a budget ultimately is all inclusive. All of this is enshrined in the local government’s Municipal Systems Act, No. 32 of 2000.
Other processes beyond the adoption of the IDP to ensure this transparency therefore says, the municipal manager, ten days after the end of each quarter, he/she must table that report to the council and say how he or she has applied transparency and prescripts of the law by ensuring that communities are informed. Subsequent to taking that to council, the municipalities must therefore put it amongst others into their notice boards, on their websites and also tabulate them fully into the council.
So, the department has partnered in line with many law enforcement agencies to ensure the smooth co-ordination of any of the wrongful doings which are then picked up by a council in this quarter reports, subsequently, by the Auditor-General. And, by the public participation that when communities pick up such activities either on the websites or anywhere else they are able to ensure that the processes of requirement are clear, fair, transparent, but also ultimately they are consequences which are being faced in case of any malfeasants that might have happened. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr G G MPUMZA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, while there is legislation in place to ensure transparency and
accountability in the municipal procurement systems, there has been glaring instances which point out that these pieces of legislations are not adhered to and that the state of transparency with respect to municipal procurement has not improved. The special report of the Auditor-General on financial management of government’s COVID-19 initiatives raises concerns about unfairness in awarding of government businesses and a lack of transparency to protect against corruption.
What is the Deputy Minister going to do to take to task those municipalities that still do not publish their tender information or other related procurement information such as deviations and expansions?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T NKADIMENG): Thank you very much Deputy Speaker, hon Mpumza, the department together with National Treasury has embarked on the financial management indicators which has already been developed, formed and circulated. They are in MFMA Circular No. 88 circulated to all municipalities. This circular amongst other things aims to align the planning as I have spoken about the IDP earlier on, the reporting instruments which I have spoken about including the community
and council meetings into a prescribed set of indicators. These indicators subsequently, for this term of local government which has just started on 05 November. The Minister also circulated them to all mayors and all councils.
But further that them being regulations, earlier on, we have been asking only the municipal manager and the mayor to sign. In what the Minister has circulated to councils now, all council members are obliged to sign such indicators that they have seen the report on what will be... The measures themselves as well are open and transparent on how you have awarded a tender, to who you have awarded a tender and the amount that the tender has been advertised and awarded for and how much has been paid at that particular quarter of when the report was happening. This is in line with section 75 of the MFMA. The National Treasury is a lead department on this. But the prescription and the publication and the application is done by both of us to ensure that both these procurement processes are to be enforced and we will ensure that all the procurements related prescripts are aligned to.
Subsequent to what the Auditor-General has picked up, we have given measures and terms, as I have said, in this term, even though ... [Inaudible.] ... of incumbency of the previous
councils, all councillors are obliged to sign the report that will be sent to the National Treasury them accounting on what would have happened on those funds. And we do believe no councillor would say I don’t know what would have happened about a particular report in a particular matter. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr C BRINK: Deputy Speaker, I noticed that the Deputy Minister has not mentioned the District Development Model once in this entire session, which is quite interesting. My question is, given the problems that we have with procurement, would the Deputy Minister support the leadership taken by the City of Cape Town, and other DA-led municipalities to open the BID Adjudication Committee to public observation to achieve transparency.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T NKADIMENG): Hon member, I often thought English is my second language but I do understand you have a problem. Integrated planning means collective - all government.
District Development Model means one plan, one budget, one government, integrated planning together. It’s semantics in English.
But there is a question that is coming subsequently after this one that specifically deals with District Development Model, DDM. We will deal with and we will use DDM and we will have one understanding.
You actually are very late, City of Cape Town. The City of Rustenburg, Bojanala. You wait! Chill! You wait. What has Polokwane got to do with my answer? You wait. I am saying you are late. Bojanala Platinum District Municipality appoints interviews, even their all directors including the municipal manager, MM, in public. They do their accounting and their application of tenders in public. Chill! We all are learning from one another. It shouldn’t be a point that is raised in a competitive manner. There are areas and responsibilities which other municipalities are best. Steve Tshwete is the best. My answer is simple, I have learned from Bojanala Platinum District Municipality. Cape Town has also learned from Bojanala Platinum District Municipality. And that is where I have learned, Bojanala Municipality in Rustenburg in the North West province. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, just yesterday, the Amathole District Municipality, one of the worst run municipalities in the country advertised
for a position of a mayoral advisor with a remuneration package of over R1,6million. Deputy Minister, you and I can surely determine that this is a meaningless position that is only aimed at remunerating comrades who are politically connected with the current mayor of the municipality.
This is one of the things that fuel lack of confidence by the public in the local government. Are you going to engage with the municipality and find out as to how did they arrive at such a high remuneration package for the position in a municipality that is almost broke?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T NKADIMENG): Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Hon Mkhaliphi, the post was advertised and the post is closing as per the advert at the end of December. The remuneration as anticipated is R1,6million to a bracket of R1,1million. I am reading this because this is a report we have sent in a form of a letter requesting the Mayor of Amathole District Municipality to explain that. The hon Minister mme Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma is on top of the issue. The advert has not yet even closed, interviews have not even happened. We will make sure that we find the necessary mechanism on how to resolve this.
By the way Deputy Speaker, members may know that we as a department have taken a lead in developing the municipal guide, which is a handbook to guide the staff establishment for mayors, speakers and chief whips, to ensure uniformity to curb excessive use but also to ensure that the remuneration is kept and balanced at another level. So, this answer is not necessary about Amathole, it is in line with the handbook that the Minister is championing as we are professionalising local government as a sector. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I just wanted to bring to your attention that this supplementary and its answer takes us to the end of the day. Proceed hon Groenewald.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, section 116 of the MFMA states that and I quote:
Municipalities must report back to council when all contracts are concluded and report on the performance of such contracts to ensure transparency.
Yet municipalities do not comply with this section because councils do not receive these reports. This includes Bojanala Platinum District Municipality as well as Rustenburg Local
Municipality. The hon Deputy Minister then must agree that the problem with transparency is the fact that municipalities do not comply with legislation. Legislation would protect municipalities from corruption.
What actions will the Deputy Minister take to ensure municipalities do comply and report to council as per legislation specifically section 116 of the MFMA?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS (Ms T NKADIMENG): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. I did indicate hon member that we have in this first term identifying all areas that municipalities will have to respond on which are indicators for compliance, of which section 116 of the MFMA which talks about transparency, application and posting of ensuring that members of the public are aware of the contracts that have been ... If municipalities don’t place them on their websites, don’t communicate them, the following has happened in a letter signed by the hon Minister to all municipal managers and mayors beginning this term. That all council members are obligated to sign the report upon receipt of what would have happened on a quarterly basis.
Prior that, as a department, we used to request only a measure that a mayor and a municipal manager... And these were the gaps which we have identified. If a council of a particular municipality is made up of 30 councillors including a mayor, all those councillors must sign that particular report.
But section 71 of the MFMA which the National Treasury is also responsible of overseeing on a month to month basis is now mandatory for municipalities to submit all those reports in prep up to their quarter basis. So, it will not be feasible for the municipality to not be able to meet section 71, not meet section 116 and subsequently escape the audit of the Auditor-General who will come and look for all those quarter reports and all those advertisements and go through the website to check on a quarterly basis if they have been effected in terms of what the law says. We do believe that consequences, subsequently, if all councillors sign a report that they have not received then it will not be possible for it to happen. We will make sure that the measures are also sustainable. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, as things would happen, the questions time is finished. Therefore, we wish you well today, the House is Adjourned.
Mr N SINGH: Not so fast, Deputy Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: There are eleven orders on the Order paper.
Mr N SINGH: Not so fast, not so fast colleagues.
IsiZulu:
Hlalani phansi.
IsiXhosa:
UMbhexeshi oyiNtloko: Hlala phansi tata.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, all of you take your seats because I realise you really do want to go home. Just hang on, I may have made a mistake which I am being corrected. This is why the table is in front of me here. Hold on and cool your heels with the greatest of respect.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
There was no debate.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair I move that this report be adopted by the House. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE ON CIVILIAN SECRETARIAT FOR POLICESERVICES (CSPS) ANNUAL REPORT AND PERFORMANCE FOR 2020/2021 FINANCIAL YEAR
There was no debate.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair I move that the House adopts this report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE ON INDEPENDENT POLICE INVESTIGATIVE DIRECTORATE (IPID) ANNUAL REPORT AND PERFORMANCE FOR 2020/2021 FINANCIAL YEAR
There was no debate.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair I move that the House adopt this report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE ON PRIVATE SECURITY INDUSTRY REGULATORY AUTHORITY (PSIRA) ANNUAL REPORT AND PERFORMANCE FOR 2020/2021 FINANCIAL YEAR
There was no debate.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair I move that this report be adopted by the House. Thank you very much House Chair.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE ON 2020/21 ANNUAL REPORT OF SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE (SAPS)
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move for the adoption of this report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move for the adoption of this Report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES.
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move for the adoption of this report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES ON CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
There was no debate.
IsiXhosa:
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEQELA ELILAWULAYO: Ewe uyigxininise la
nto ithi ...
English:
... majority party. Did you hear? Of the majority party – levels. House Chair, I move that the report be adopted. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES ON OFFICE OF CHIEF JUSTICE AND JUDICIAL ADMINISTRATION
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the House adopts this report. Thank you.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION ON ANNUAL REPORTS AND FINANCIAL STATEMENTS OF DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND SANITATION AND ENTITIES FOR 2019/20 FINANCIAL YEAR
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the House adopts the report. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON BASIC EDUCATION ON PERFORMANCE OF DEPARTMENT OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR 2020/21 FINANCIAL YEAR
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that this report be adopted by the House. Thank you.
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 18:14.
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