Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 24 Nov 2021


No summary available.






Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)


The Council met at 14.03.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


The Chairperson announced that the virtual sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Delegates who are physically in the chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their card to register on the chamber system. Members must ensure that their microphone on their gadgets are muted and remain muted at all times. You will use the floor microphone, wear masks at all times, occupy seats that are marked for that purpose and maintain social distancing of at least 1,5 metres at all times. Delegates must



switch on their video if they want to speak or address the Chair. Any delegate who wishes to speak must use the raise hand function. All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chatroom. Hon delegates, we shall now proceed to notices of motion. Any delegate who wishes to give a notice of motion should use the raise hand function.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council—



(1) notes the increasing demand for higher education space in South Africa congruent to the increased population of young people;



(2) further notes that this has resulted in increasingly geographic voices for the demand of the building of institutions of learning;



(3) acknowledges that whilst accepting the legitimacy of these demands by different communities, it is our belief that without a national master plan on higher



education, this challenge cannot be adequately addressed; and



(4) calls on the Minister of Higher Education, Science, Technology and Innovation, in consultation with the higher education stakeholders, to convene a national higher education summit to map out a long-term national master plan for higher education in South Africa.



Mr S F DU TOIT: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF Plus:



That the Council—



(1) notes that government is focusing on temporary employment initiatives, we’ve reached a high unemployment and poverty level in South Africa;



(2) further notes that taxpayers’ money is being used to fund these initiatives and that these initiatives must not simply be employment opportunities to dish out funds;



(3) debates local government’s responsibility to ensure that taxpayers get value for the money spent and that the initiative ... [Inaudible.] ... that the EPWP project yields actual results while developing skills; and



(4) encourages that departmental head managers be held responsible to ensure tangible productive outcomes.



Mr M E NCHABELENG: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council—



(1) notes with utmost concern media reports about the allegations of poor governance and maladministration at the University of South Africa;



(2) further notes that among these reports are serious allegations of poor standards of invigilation of the examinations, which questions the quality and credibility of qualifications from this premier institution of our country;



(3) takes this opportunity to applaud the interventions of the Minister of Higher Education, Science and Innovation, hon Dr Immanuel Blade Nzimande, in addressing some of the challenges facing the university; and



(4) calls for decisive interventions to address the leadership and governance challenges facing this historic university.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF Plus:



That the Council—



(1) notes that almost all the municipalities in the Free State are unable to manage their water resources;



(2) also notes that this failure causes the loss of billions of litres of water daily, leading to some communities not having access to clean water at all;



(3) further notes that we should be mindful that this violates the Bill of Rights in section 27(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which stipulates that every citizen has the right to water; and



(4) urgently debates the rights of citizens to have access to clean and affordable water.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson. Can I just get clarity here because there are some members that are moving motions without notice? Is this motions without notice, House Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it’s not motions


without notice.



Mr A ARNOLDS: But the previous speakers raised motions without notice, Chairperson. I have a motion without notice, so I will wait for that time.



The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, thank you. Next is hon Visser. We are still going to get to the motions without notice. No, that will be the second one. At the moment it’s



notices of motion. Hon Visser, do you have a motion without notice?



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chair, it was a motion without notice. I will wait my turn. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHARPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon delegates, we shall proceed to motions without notice. Any delegate who wishes to move a motion without notice should use the raise hand function. If there is any objection to the motion or if no objection, then the motion is agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution as we know. It’s now motions without notice. We are taking the names. Hon Chief Whip, hon Mohai,






(Draft Resolution)



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, I move without notice:



That the Council -



(1) notes, and acknowledges with a great sense of grief and loss the passing of the late comrade Oben “Computer” Choane in October 2021;



(2) recognises that Oben Choane dedicated his entire life to the service of our people by joining the then UMKhonto We Sizwe, Military Wing of the African National Congress, and later served in the State Security Agency where he recently retired before his untimely death;



(3) acknowledges that he followed the footsteps of the great giants like Chris Hani, who preached and worked for peace after the cessation of hostilities between the erstwhile Nationalist Party and the African National Congress until his death; and



(4) uses this opportunity to call upon this august House to express its heartfelt condolences to his family, friends and his political party, the African National Congress in the Free State.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council -



(1) notes with concern, reports made by Eskom CEO, Mr de Ruyter and later confirmed by an investigation, that there is clear evidence of sabotage in our energy supply;



(2) condemns these atrocious acts with the strongest contempt they deserve and calls on the South African Police Service to move with speed in apprehending perpetrators of these crimes; and



(3) takes this opportunity to call on all South Africans to be vigilant and report these and other crimes to the police.








(Draft Resolution)



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council -



(1) congratulates the newly elected coalition government in Bitou, namely the Mayor, Cllr Dave Swart from the DA, the Speaker Cllr Claude Terblanche from the Plettenberg Development Congress, the Deputy Mayor, Cllr Punkie Basakwe from the Active United Front and the Council Whip, Cllr Bill Nel from the Democratic Alliance; and



(2) acknowledges their commitment that the culture and values of accountability, transparency and good clean governance will be the foundation of all the work to be performed to grow Bitou for everyone.








(Draft Resolution)



Ms C VISSER: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council –



(1) notes the outcry from the SA Human Rights Commission regarding the failing wastewater treatment plants and subsequent pollution of water resources that should be declared a national disaster;



(2) further notes that raw untreated sewer is pumped directly into streams, rivers and dams in the countryside and that this is a blatant infringement of the Constitution and the NEMA Act with no consequences;



(3) acknowledges that the District Municipalities are disregarding their mandates as Water and Sanitation Authorities by their sheer lack of action, incompetence, incapacity, and inability being among the answers given if asked how South Africa reached the point of this devastating deliberate destruction;



(4) notes with concern that in April this year more than half of the country’s multimillion rand wastewater treatment works were on life support despite the SAHRC’s call;



(5) also notes that previous Department of Water and Sanitation Ministers namely Nomvula Mokonyane, Gugile Nkwinti and Lindiwe Sisulu all failed to deal with water and sanitation challenges and worse that in their ministerial positions as custodians of South Africa’s water, their inaction facilitated the destruction of South Africa’s critical water supply;



(6) convey the hope that Minister Senzo Mchunu and his deputy will not join the list; and



(7) implores Minister Senzo Mchunu to take action with all authorities to comply with their constitutional mandate of all failing wasteful treatment works and subsequent pollution of our water resources to address the causes and save our water supply.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr J J LONDT: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I hereby wish to move a motion without notice:



That the Council -



(1) notes and congratulates the Mossel Bay Municipality for being the very first Council in South Africa to be constituted and Cllrs inaugurated after the Local government elections;



(2) further notes the trendsetting work done by the municipality during the previous term, achieving numerous accolades which included twice achieving the most financially stable municipality in South Africa, top performing municipality in South Africa 2019 (GGA), best municipality in South Africa 2020 according to good governance Africa, GGA;



(3) congratulates Mr Colin Purren, the Acting Municipal Manager and his team namely Mr Edward Jantjies, Ms Pricilla Fielies who form the backbone of a functioning municipality that is setting an example for all to follow and who despite numerous challenges ensured that a hotly contested election runs as smoothly as possible;



(4) further congratulates Alderman Dirk Kotze for being elected as the very first Mayor in South Africa after the election, achieving 66.24% together with his team; Alderman Venolea Fortuin for becoming the very first female Speaker ever in Mossel Bay; and Alderman Cliffie Bayman for his election as Deputy Mayor; and



(5) takes this opportunity to thank, congratulate, wish well and encourage every single representative from all six parties represented in Council, to ensure that Mossel Bay stays a trendsetting municipality, which deliverers to all its residents.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms M N GILLION: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, I moved without notice:



That the Council -



(1) notes the recent 6th democratic Local Government Elections in South Africa that were held on 1 November 2021;



(2) also notes and acknowledges the professionalism and the integrity with which the Independent Electoral



Commission of South Africa has managed these elections;



(3) applauds the democratic voices of the electorate in choosing the parties and leaders of their choice;



(4) notes the recognition of the elections by all the political parties and the independent international observers as free and fair;



(5) takes note with concern the persistent trend of lower voter participation in local government elections;



(6) calls on all political parties to put the interests of the communities above party political interests by accelerating service delivery and development and congratulates the African National Congress for winning the decisive majority of the Councils across the country and other parties that won other municipalities;



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr D R RYDER: Hon House Chair, on behalf of the DA, and as a proud representative to this Council from Gauteng, I hereby move without notice:



That this Council –



(1) congratulates the new Mayors, Speakers, Chief Whips, Members of the Mayoral Committees, MMCs, and Councilors of the municipalities in Gauteng on their elections and appointments;



(2) notes that they be reminded that they have been placed in positions of authority, not to act in their own interest or the interest of their coalition partners, but in the interest of the people who placed them on their lofty seats; and



(3) wishes to mention the teams from Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, Tshwane, Mogale City and of course my home in Midvaal now, these now have DA-led governments;



(4) congratulates you, and demand that you serve the residents well, governing with humility and in accordance with the highest principles.



I so move.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon House Chair, on behalf of the FF Plus, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council –



(1) notes the unfolding water crisis in Mangaung Metro, where the largest parts of the metro have been without water for more than 4 days due to non-payment by the Mangaung Metro Municipality;



(2) further notes that the town of Dewetsdorp, which forms part of Mangaung, goes without water on a weekly basis for the past 4 years as a result of the lack of infrastructure from both the municipality as well as Bloemwater;



(3) also notes with concern that it is an extreme violation of the basic human right to have access to clean water by both Bloemwater and the Mangaung Metro; and



(4) recognizes that the Water Board on many occasions acts carelessly and impulsively without considering the impact and well-being of paying citizens and that the agreements between the department, Water Board and the municipality should be re-evaluated to serve in the interest of our citizens.



I so move.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon House Chair, on behalf of the EFF, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council –



(1) notes that indigent communities are least likely to have access to reliable, safe water supply, decent sanitation services and are less able to secure appropriate redress for the violation of such basic rights;



(2) further notes that in Welkom, at the informal settlement called Phokeng, there was a project worth R78 million awarded to Kethwayo Holdings to install sewage pipes and build toilets for the residents of that community;



(3) also acknowledges that this project started in 2018 and the company left in 2019 without completing the work;



(4) further acknowledges that to date there are no toilets in the informal settlement and that there continues to



be wasteful expenditure and tax-payers money are wasted without accountability;



(5) recognizes that the failure to realize basic rights in communities such as Phokeng, serves to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and inequality in the country.



I so move.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: House Chair, on behalf of the DA, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council –



(1) That the council notes with great satisfaction the inauguration of councilor Christopher Pappas, Sandile Mnikathi, and Janis Holmes as Mayor, Deputy Mayor and the Speaker of uMngeni municipality in KwaZulu-Natal;



(2) Further notes this inauguration held the first outright majority DA-run municipality in KwaZulu-Natal;



(3) Also notes that today, 24 November 2021, marks the one- year anniversary for the acceptance of a motion without notice in this House highlighting the concern over the former Municipal Manager Cibane ... [Inaudible.] ... financial protocols aided and abated by the former ANC mayor;



(4) Notes that one-year later, Cibane and the former major are now out of office;



(5) Also notes that despite the voters of uMngeni rising up to reject the former corrupt regime, Cibane and ... [Inaudible.] ... tried to hijack the first inaugural meeting, only to be ... [Inaudible.] ... and suctioned by the Pietermaritzburg High Court;



(6) Further notes that the hard work of ... [Inaudible.]


... with the uMngeni municipality now firmly under DA control. Notes that Mayor Pappas has committed to clean governance and the removal of illegal and corrupt practices and those that commit it.



(7) Further notes that the commitment to ensure that uMngeni is safe, clean and transformed into a tourism and agriculture center of excellence. With opportunities for all who wish to contribute in a positive manner to creating an environment for success;



(8) Finally, calls on all other parties in uMngeni to work together with the new administration to realize this new and exciting vision.



I so move.



Not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr C F B SMIT: House Chair, on behalf of the DA, I hereby move without notice:



That the Council –



(1) notes that the Thabazimbi Local Municipality in Limpopo elected its official office bearers yesterday on the

23 November 2021;



(2) Also notes that the DA Councilor Tokkie Swanepoel was elected as Mayor of Thabazimbi Local Municipality while Councilor Butana Thlabirwa of Thabazimbi Forum for Service Delivery was elected Speaker, Councilor Catherine Sikwana of the Thabazimbi Residence Association was elected as Chief Whip;



(3) Further notes that councilors have a mammoth task to work together as a minority coalition to build on the work already done in the last term by minority coalition which was in office, which was to fix a broken municipality which was bankrupt and without the basics like furniture, computers and vehicles, and owned R100millions to Eskom and Magalies Waterboard,



which was left behind by the previous ANC-led government;



(4) Lastly notes that we congratulate these Councilors on their election and wish them well in their responsibility to ensure a better life for the people of Thabazimbi, free of corruption and maladministration.



I so move



Not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms N E NKOSI: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes that Major General Nomthethelelo Lillian Mene has been appointed as the Police Commissioner for the Province of the Eastern Cape as from 1 December 2021;



(2) further notes that Major General Mene is a seasoned police officer who served as station commander in Port Alfred, Stellenbosch and Khayelitsha before being appointed as Acting Deputy Provincial Commissioner responsible for support services in the Western Cape;



(3) also notes that Major General Mene who was born in Humansdorp in the Eastern Cape is replacing another woman Lieutenant General Ntshinga, who left the post in September to take over as Deputy National Commissioner; and lastly Chair;



(4) we therefore congratulate Major General Mene and the SA Police Service, SAPS on their program of empowering and advancing women.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr E J NJANDU: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes that the residents of Delft in Cape Town, have been complaining of falling prey to unscrupulous estate agents who are illegally selling RDP houses;



(2) further notes that some residents are intimidated and afraid to confront people that are illegally occupying homes that belong to them; and with emphasis therefore;



(3) calls on the Provincial Department of Human Settlement and the police to urgently investigate this complaint and act against those found to have transgressed the law.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)





Mr I M SILEKU: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes that as of yesterday, 25 of the 30 Municipalities of the Western Cape have successfully constituted their councils;



(2) further notes that the DA in the Western Cape has managed to secure 23 municipalities out of the 30, with either an outright majority or with coalition partners;



(3) also notes that the recent local government election results demonstrate that the people of the Western Cape continue to have faith in the DA and the faith shown in the DA is indeed a fact and a vote of confidence when it comes to good governance;



(4) further notes that that additional municipalities will have an opportunity to experience the DA difference by putting ...





... abantu kuqala.





And lastly,



(5) to congratulate all councillors on their election for the next five years.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms A D MALEKA: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes with utmost concern the mushrooming of private technical and vocational training institutions in this country;



(2) further notes the alarming reports about fraudulent registration and operations of some of these institutions outside the prescribed legal framework; and therefore;



(3) takes this opportunity to call on the Department of Higher Education, Science and Innovation to deal decisively with illegally registered institutions that continue to extort our people of their hard- earned income; and



(4) calls on the Department to publish an annual report or register of approved TVET Colleges and that, this report should be made available online and in all public libraries and encourage parents to ascertain the status of a college before registering their children.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Ms N NDONGENI: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes with profound shock and concern persisting media reports about the escalating numbers of female students who are either sexually violated or murdered at university campuses;



(2) also notes that some are students are murdered and violated in their private residences outside campuses, highlighting the crisis of safe accommodation for students in universities and colleges; and



(3) takes this opportunity to call on the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology and the leadership of the higher education sector to review the existence of security and safety measures in the higher institutions of learning.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr A ARNOLDS: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes that on the 21 November 2021, fishing communities all over the world celebrated World Fisheries Day, which highlights the important role small-scale fishers play in ensuring local food and nutrition security as well as in developing the economy;



(2) further notes that given the state of small scale fishery in South Africa, from the delays and the inadequacy of policy implementation to the growing incidence of ocean-grabbing and extractive activities along the coastline, there is little cause for celebration;



(3) acknowledges that the Small Scale Fisheries Policy was Gazetted in 2012, but it's implementation since then, has been marked with challenges and characterised by a top down, highly bureaucratic process that has led to the exclusion of many across the country;



(4) further acknowledges that the Western Cape small scale fishing communities are often marginalised communities situated in rural areas, with limited jobs and income opportunities;



(5) recognises that the application process for recognition as a small scale fisher is full of challenges and corruption, as many were either not able to apply or were unsuccessful for a range of reasons;



(6) acknowledges that it is therefore imperative that the implementation of the Small Scale Fisheries Policy in the Western Cape is a just, equitable and inclusive process.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Arnolds, your time has expired.



Mr A ARNOLDS: I so move hon Chair. Thank you.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr S F DU TOIT: House Chair, I move without notice:



That the Council-



(1) notes the brutal farm murders and farm attacks are still a reality in South Africa;



(2) further notes that according to the Rome Institute, between 1 August and 31 October 2021, 53 farm attacks and 15 murders as a result of these attacks took place in South Africa;



(3) also notes that the brutality of these attacks is inhumane and attackers must face the full force of the law; and



(4) resolves to urgently debate the matter. I thank you.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon delegates, we will now proceed to the first order. No, I gave you a chance. You were the second one after the Chief Whip and after that one I went to hon Labuschagne. Hon Nhanha please, I gave you a chance. [Inaudible.] [Laughter.] No you are out of order. It is even denying me that opportunity. Next time you will be the first one, sorry my brother. Hot chocolate you know, don’t worry, don’t worry.



Hon delegates, it is going to be a long day. We will now proceed to the first order of the day. Consideration of the Report of the Select Committee on Security and Justice on the Report dated 27 July 2021 for the removal from office of Ms J F van Schalkwyk, Chief Magistrate Sub-Cluster Head Kempton Park Johannesburg in terms of section 13(4)(b) of the Magistrates Act 1993, Act 90 of 1993 dated 10 November 2021. The chairperson of the committee, hon Shaikh.










Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very, House Chair, and greetings to hon members in the House and hon members on the platform. Hon House Chairperson, the Magistrates Commission’s report dated

27 July 2021 was tabled by the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services in terms of section 13(4)(b) of the Magistrates Act No 90 of 1993, on their recommendation for the removal from office of Mrs J F Van Schalkwyk, Chief Magistrate, Sub-Cluster Head, Kempton Park, Johannesburg. The Select Committee on Security and Justice having considered the matter, reports as follows:



Hon House Chairperson, the disciplinary proceedings against Mrs Van Schalkwyk began on 23 April 2013. And The report on matters related to Mrs Van Schalkwyk has come before this hon House on various occasions over the years, as follows: On 22 October 2013, the House adopted the report on Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s provisional suspension from office. The House further adopted the report on Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s withholding of remuneration on 13 June 2018. Mrs Van Schalkwyk faced 24 counts of misconduct including abuse of power, attending to



personal matters during work hours, gambling during work hours, borrowing money from subordinates and handing down judgments she had not written.



The formal inquiry began in October 2014. There were several postponements and changes to legal counsel and in October 2015, Mrs Van Schalkwyk applied to the High Court for a declaratory order about the validity of regulations for judicial officers in the lower courts. The High Court dismissed the application with costs on 1 August 2017. Mrs Van Schalkwyk then petitioned the Supreme Court of Appeal, which dismissed the application in March 2018, also with costs.

Following the Supreme Court of Appeal’s ruling, the inquiry was supposed to proceed in April 2018, but was postponed to July 2018. After several postponements and despite numerous challenges encountered during the misconduct proceedings, all the evidence was eventually led and both parties were given the opportunity to submit their respective heads of arguments on the merits and orally amplify them before the presiding officer on 17 and 18 September 2020. Mrs Van Schalkwyk elected not to testify at the inquiry. The presiding officer postponed the inquiry to 1 and 2 October 2020, for judgment and the imposition of a sanction. The presiding officer on 1 October 2020, delivered his judgment and found Mrs Van Schalkwyk



guilty of 13 of the 22 remaining counts of misconduct preferred against her.



Hon House Chair, the presiding officer was of the view that taking the seriousness of the charges of which she is found guilty holistically and in its totality, Mrs Van Schalkwyk is not fit to hold the office of magistrate any longer, therefore, recommending her removal from office. The undisputed fact that she borrowed monies from a local attorney, who frequently appeared at the Kempton Park Magistrates Court, to pay for her overseas trip, on its own, justifies her removal from office. The Magistrates Commission having considered all the relevant documentation, as is required in terms of Regulation 26(19), including Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s representations, the commission resolved to recommend that Mrs Van Schalkwyk be removed from office on the ground of misconduct as contemplated in terms of section 13(4)(a)(i) of the Magistrates Act. The Magistrates Commission finds Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s conduct as set out in the charge sheet of which she was found guilty so serious that it justifies her removal from office. Her conduct renders her unfit to hold the office of Magistrate any longer.



On 27 July 2021, The Minister informed Parliament that Mrs Van Schalkwyk instituted review proceedings. Her grounds for review are based on the decision of the second and third respondents. The second respondents being the Magistrate Commission and the third respondent the presiding officer in the misconduct proceedings. In paragraphs 58 to 60 of her affidavit she states that the presiding officer failed to consider appropriate alternative sanctions such as demotion and suspension and accordingly failed to apply his mind to the issue of sanction. If she is wrong in her interpretation and the sanction is indeed exhaustive of the type of sanction that may be imposed then she submits that Regulation 26(17)(a) must be set aside in terms of the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, 2000, and or is unconstitutional and must be set aside as it deprives her of her constitutional right to equality, human dignity and the freedom to carry out a trade and or must be set aside on the basis of the legality principle. A total number of 13 out of the 18 commissioners, that is 70%, had supported the sanction of dismissal. The Minister in terms of section 13(4)(i) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, confirmed the suspension of Mrs Van Schalkwyk and submitted the report in terms of section 13(4)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, for Parliament’s consideration on 27 July 2021.



Hon House Chair, the committee met on 8 September 2021, to receive a briefing on the matter. At this briefing the Chairperson drew members’ attention to the letter from Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s attorneys informing the committee of her review proceedings and a request for the committee to stay its decision pending the outcome of the review proceedings. The Chairperson further noted that a parliamentary legal opinion was circulated to members that provided guidance on Parliament’s role in relation to the matter before the Committee. The committee after considering the information presented, the request by Mrs Van Schalkwyk’s attorneys and the parliamentary legal opinion indicated their support for the removal from office of Mrs Van Schalkwyk.



The House should also note that the committee has received regular progress reports on the matter of Mrs Van Schalkwyk since 2019, on an annual basis and has taken all of the various reports of progress on this matter into account in arriving at its decision to remove Mrs Van Schalkwyk from office. Mrs Van Schalkwyk has been on provisional suspension since 2013, and has not received any remuneration since 2018.



Hon House Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice,


having considered the Magistrates Commission’s report dated 27



July 2021, as tabled by the Minister for Justice and Correctional Services, on the suspension from office of Mrs J F Van Schalkwyk, Chief Magistrate, Sub-Cluster Head, Kempton Park, Johannesburg in terms of Section 13(4)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, recommends that the National Council of Provinces does not restore Mrs J F Van Schalkwyk to the office of Magistrate. Thank you.






Ms S SHAIKH: House Chairperson, the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B12B - 2021] (National Assembly – sec 75), was referred to Select Committee on Security and Justice on 10 September 2021. The Committee having deliberated on and considered the subject matter of the bill, has agreed to the Bill without proposed amendments and reports as follows:



The Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill aims to amend section


154 of the Criminal Procedure Act, 51 of 1977) in order to give effect to a judgment of the Constitutional Court in Centre for Child Law and Others v Media 24 Limited and Others.



The Constitutional Court confirmed the decision of the Supreme Court of Appeal and declared section 154(3) of the Criminal Procedure Act constitutionally invalid for failing to protect the identity of child victims of crime in criminal proceedings and for failing to provide ongoing protection of anonymity to child accused, child witnesses and child victims.



The declaration of constitutional invalidity was suspended for 24-months to afford Parliament an opportunity to remedy the defect that gave rise to the constitutional invalidity. This period comes to an end on 4 December 2021.



Section 154(3) of the Criminal Procedure Act, CPA, affords anonymity protection for child accused or child witnesses in criminal proceedings. This protection prevents the publication of any information that discloses the identity of child accused and child witnesses. This protection may only be withheld on the authority of a court, if it finds doing so equitable and just. However, Hon Chair, child victims are not covered by this protection. The provision does not extend the protection into adulthood for child accused, child witnesses and child victims.



In the Centre for Child Law judgment, the Court found section 154(3) to be unconstitutional for arbitrarily differentiating between classes of children and thus giving rise to a breach of the right to equality.



The court stated that by excluding child victims from its protection, the section limits the right to equality, privacy and dignity and the principle of the best interests of the child.



Clause 1(a) of the Bill amends section 154(3) of the CPA in order to prohibit the publication of any information which reveals or may reveal the identity of an accused or a witness or of a person against whom an offence has allegedly been committed, who is or was under the age of 18 years at the time of the alleged commission of the offence, unless the publication of such information is authorised by a court under subsection 3(B).



Clause 1 further inserts a new subsection 3A into section 154(3) of the CPA, to provide exceptions to the prohibition on the publication of the details of a child witness, child victim or child accused under the age of 18.



The new subsection 3(A) allows for the publication by a police official or any other person authorised by the National Commissioner of the South African Police Service or a delegated person in the event where substantial injustice would result and no other means are available and if there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the accused committed



(a) an offence listed in Schedule 3 to the Child Justice Act, or

(b) a serious offence for which a 10-year prison sentence would have been imposed if it had been committed by an adult.



Subsection 3(A) thus authorises the publication of the identity and age in certain circumstances to locate the whereabouts of child accused, victims or witnesses in the interests of justice, and where the SAPS has been unsuccessful in locating their whereabouts.



Subsection 3B provides for the judicial officer or the presiding judge to authorise the publication of any information relating to the proceedings as he or she may deem fit, if such publication would, in his or her opinion, be just and equitable and in the interest of any particular person.



The Constitutional Court also held that an accused, witness, or person against whom an offence has allegedly been committed, who is under the age of 18 years at the time of the commission of the offence, does not forfeit the protection of anonymity afforded by section 154 upon attainment of the age of 18-years. The amendment to section 154 provides that the protection in subsection (3) is on-going unless the court authorises the publication of the information of a child.



A person may consent to the publication of their identity after reaching the age of 18-years, or if consent is refused their identity may be published at the discretion of a competent court. Consent is not the sole criteria for the publication of such information.



Proposed subsection 3(B) requires the court to be satisfied that the accused, witness or a person against whom an offence has been committed understands the nature and effect of the order authorising publication of their identity.



Proposed new subsection 3(B) also provides factors which must be considered by the court in determining whether the identity of such an accused, a witness, or a person against whom an offence has allegedly been committed, who is or was under the



age of 18-years at the time of the commission of the offence, may be revealed. These factors include the nature of the charges, age of the person involved, interests of the public, the hardship a person may suffer as a result of the publication, amongst others.



The Portfolio Committee on Justice had made certain refinements to the Bill, prior to the Bill being referred to the Select Committee, which includes:



Extending the prohibition on publication also to social media or electronic platforms. A child accused, a witness or victim may publish their own identity without the need for a court order unless a court order has been made authorising the protection of their identity into adulthood.



Public participation process on the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B12B - 2021] (National Assembly – sec 75)



The Select Committee on Security and Justice invited stakeholders and interested persons to make written submissions and published the advert on Parliament’s electronic platforms from 14 October and in national and



provincial newspapers from 28 October 2021. The deadline for written submissions was set for 12 November 2021.



The committee received 55 written submissions from the following individuals and organisations: The South African National Editor’s Forum, Media Monitoring Africa, and 53 Individual submissions were received via Dear South Africa website. The 53 individual submissions largely indicated their support or not, or not fully in support of the Bill.



The Select Committee received a briefing on the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill on 10 November 2021. On 17 November 2021, the Select Committee received a further briefing from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development on the Department’s response to the written submissions.



During the course of deliberations on the Bill, the department had agreed that it is well aware that there is a need to use non-binary language and it is something that will receive attention in the future in so far as new and amending legislation is concerned. The committee therefore urges the department to apply this to all upcoming legislation as a measure to ensure inclusivity in all legislation that is referred to the committee.



After deliberating on the department’s response to the written submissions, the committee adopted the Bill as well as the committee report on the matter.



Hon Chair, this report on this Bill is tabled a mere day before the 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence, begins, which usually runs from 25 November to 10 December each year. In the last parliamentary term, the select committee processed and passed the 3 GBV Bills which were also brought before this House and the current Bill further enhances protection for child victims of crime in criminal proceedings and provides ongoing protection of anonymity to child accused, witnesses and victims.



The committee is pleased that legislation aimed at enhancing the protection of those who are amongst the most vulnerable in our society is being passed and we will continue to monitor the implementation of these important pieces of legislation as part of our oversight function.



The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B12B - 2021] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it on 10 September 2021 and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a



section 75 Bill, recommends the Council pass the Bill without proposed amendments.






Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you, hon House Chair, hon members, permanent and special delegates present in the platform.





Sitjhaba sekhethu, seSewula Afrika, lotjhani.





It is an honour and privilege to table before this august House a report on the Second Special Appropriations Bill, 2021(B17-2021) on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations in the NCOP. The committee unanimously adopted the Bill, without amendments, while the DA, FF Plus reserved their rights, and the EFF abstained. Hon Chair, section 213(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa provides that an Act of Parliament may withdraw money from the National Revenue Fund, NRF, only in terms of the appropriation. The Appropriation Act sets out to appropriate money from the NRF for the requirements of the state and to prescribe conditions for the spending of funds withdrawn.



In executing this mandate, the Select Committee on Appropriations was established in terms of section 4(3) of the Money Bills and Related Matters Act, no 9 of 2009 to consider and report to the House around these matters. The Second Special Appropriation Bill was tabled by the Minister of Finance, on 23 August 2021 and it was referred to the committee for concurrence, on 23 September 2021. Whilst processing the Bill, the committee observed the following issues and made further recommendations:



The Minister of Finance should ensure that the SA Special Risk Insurance Association, SASRIA, SOC Ltd expedites the process of verifying and validating additional claims as well as sharing its revenue model with government, the good model; the Minister of Social Development, together with the SA Post Office, SAPO, should ensure that systems and internal controls are in place for effective administration of the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant, and it benefits the most deserving beneficiaries; the Minister of Social Development should ensure that, in addition to criminal cases against officials of government and the SAPO, who may have unduly benefitted from the Social Relief of Distress Grant; further pursue internal disciplinary against the same perpetrators. So, I am talking about consequence management.



Given the rising levels of unemployment and the impact of COVID- 19, hon Chairperson, the committee implored government to expedite its efforts to establish a long term and sustainable strategic intervention to provide poverty relief to the most vulnerable citizens, even beyond the COVID-19 pandemic period. The Minister of Finance should put clear conditions in place for the additional allocation to the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, as well the SA Police Service, SAPS. This should address issues such as poor supply chain management, top-heavy organograms, clear restructuring processes and under-expenditure.



The National Treasury together with the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition and Small Business Development, to reconsider and address rigid bureaucratic processes for small,

medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, they are really struggling, to access government relief fund and develop adequate communication mechanisms to ensure that all businesses in townships and rural areas affected by the July unrest, benefit from the government’s relief support. The Minister of Small Business Development, together with the Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition, should ensure that systems and proper reporting mechanisms are put in place for the expenditure of the additional allocations; and that small business owners are



assisted with the application processes for the relief funds earmarked for small businesses, where necessary.



Hon Chairperson, there is a need to strengthen the working relationship and partnerships between communities, private security companies and the SA Police Service through discussion of policy issues, to ensure coordination and cooperation in order to arrest the scourge of damage to property and criminality during public protests. Chairperson and hon members, Parliament should continue to monitor the implementation and expenditure of additional allocations through regular in-year monitoring by sector committees and section 32 reports of the Public Finance Management Act No.1 of 1999.



Hon Chair, there is a consensus in the scientific community in the whole world that the quickest way to return to normal social and economic activity will be through mass vaccination and the achievement of population immunity. The ANC government believes in science, hence we call on all South Africans who are still unvaccinated to go to vaccination sites and get their jabs.

Chairperson and hon members, there is a debate with some scientists predicting that people will be able to return to their normal lives in a year, but there is fear that COVID-19 variants will continue to circulate.



Some pharmaceutical companies are even painting a scenario of annual revaccination, just like with the flu. The road we have to travel may be hard and long, but we always draw inspiration from those who came before us and made supreme sacrifices that we may enjoy the democratic form of governance and freedom. As the father of our democratic South Africa, Tata Nelson Mandela, said: “After climbing a great hill. One only finds that there are many more hills to climb.”



In conclusion, Chairperson and hon members, I wish to thank all committee members and committee stakeholders who made submissions as well as the committee support staff. Without these roleplayers, hon members and hon House Chair, the process would not have been a success. The committee recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted without amendments. In closing, Chairperson, ...





... asithokoze izakhamuzi zoke zeSewula Afrika, ngokobana baphume, bakhambe ngobunengi babo bavowude. Ngiyathokoza.



Declaration of votes:


Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, the ANC government is polishing your image with the tears of the country. Minister Dlamini-



Zuma confirmed in a written response to a question posed by the FF Plus that her ... [Inaudible.] ... will not result in a state of disaster to be lifted. A sudden overachievement in collection of taxes and the world’s your oyster, government provide much-needed assistance after contributing to the disaster.



Late in 2019, there was a financial recession in South Africa again where there was low financial growth, high unemployment rate, poor service delivery and a thriving corrupt state. A dependent electorate has nowhere else to turn to, and government must provide. Can’t things get worse. And in 2020, the “Black Swan” shod in nonturbulent vortex, an incapable government that stoked the fire of hatred and divide by the

so-called citations - the so-called nonracial, nonsexist South Africa that doesn’t discriminate against anyone, except if you are not classified and previously disadvantaged, even if you are part of the born-frees.



Government instituted draconian regulations that restricted everything, movement, education, tourism and travel, economy, health care, religious events and even school feeding schemes. Why is it so? So that they can transform and polish their



image and be the provider of what’s not there to give, and to


create even a more dependent electorate.



The fiscal cliff drew nearer, prescripts by the World Bank after loan was acquired resulted in selective consequence management but a dying country’s much-needed COVID-19 relief funds were yet again devoured by the green, black and yellow dragon, leaving nothing but yet another inquest. The caring state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are bleeding jobs and are bleeding investment opportunities and another bailout is needed. The Minister said it would not happen again. Billions of rands of opportunities are devoured by the gluttonous beasts called cadre deployments and selfish incapable state. The social relief grant being short-term relief, but long-term effects eats into job creation and infrastructure development, and this is unsustainable.





Asof die resessie, die inperkingsregulasies en gedwonge verarming van die burger nie genoeg was nie, het die regering toegelatt dat die ongekende onrus die land dae lank geskud het. In Julie 2021, het onrus in Gauteng en KwaZulu-Natal gebeur en die naskokke daarvan ruk steeds deur die Suid- Afrikaanse ekonomie en beleggersvertroue word verder geskend.



Wat doen die regering? Fondse wat beskikbaar gestel is om hulp te verleen - ’n olyftakkie word weer uitgesteek en die bitter balsem word aan die wonde gesmeer. Die belastingbetaler se geld word deur die regering gebruik om as lafenis vir die dors te dien, terwyl die regering verwoesting en verwarring veroorsaak in hierdie woestyn wat vergaan, wat hy geskep het, en die geld gebruik om sy eie beeld te probeer poets.





In closing, Chair ...





Suid-Afrika kan eintlik nie hierdie bestedings bekostig nie, maar bestuur tans die situasie. Die regering moet die huidige ramptoestand ophef, sodat ekonomiese groei spontaan kan plaasvind en volhoubare werksgeleenthede geskep kan word om afhanlklikheid van die staat te verhinder. Die regering poets sy eie beeld met Suid-Afrikaners se belastinggeld. Die redder is eintlik ’n trojaanse perd. Dankie.



Mna M S MOLETSANE: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo wa let?at?i.






The Special Appropriation Bill before the National Council of Provinces seeks to appropriate an additional R32,8 billion for social grants to all who are affected by COVID-19. This is an additional fund from Sasria to pay businesses affected by the unrests we witnessed in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng due to the deployment of soldiers on our streets. We are being requested to appropriate money used for the deployment of soldiers when we had warned government that it could not start with soldiers and police to address the unhappiness in the society. What was evident from the July unrests was that the government has no control or power over protests and it is a possibility that we shall in the future once again witness a protest of this magnitude.



With regard to Sasria, every year they present their annual reports and have always being firm that they have enough cash in their books to cover risks. However, they were exposed to the recent unrests as they were caught unprepared. It is therefore necessary that we relook at Sasria model and see how best we should prepare for any eventuality, particularly given our high levels of poverty, unemployment and crime. We live with the permanent threats of social unrests, and it cannot be that every time there are unrests, there must be a special



appropriation of billions when there is a state insurance company that must prepare for such eventualities.



On the COVID-19 social grant, we ought to extend the relief beyond March 2022. Our people, especially unemployed youth, are in a more depressing situation, worse than they were in before COVID-19. The long lines that we continue seeing at Home Affairs, where people even queue in the early mornings while it is still dark must come to an end. This is not the time to reduce the size and the capacity of the Post Office. The EFF supports the additional allocation for COVID-19 social relief grant. And our call is that the grant be extended beyond March 2022.



Lastly, the EFF does not support the Bill. The ruling party needs to address the various challenges which affect Eskom, as well as other state-owned enterprises. Instead of pouring billions out into bailouts for what is evident that there is existence of lack of leadership within the power utility, which stands as one of its major challenges.





Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.



Mr D R RYDER: House Chair, on the face of it this looks like an excellent Bill, the revenue collection of the country received the windfall from unexpected increases in commodity prices and as a result of that, we had a little bit of cash to play with. That was applied in giving money to Sasria. A very necessary amount is being appropriated to Sasria and the reality is that it is needed to make up for the July 2021 insurrection that happened in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.



The money is also being used to be applied to the social grants that have come about as a result of the extension of R350,00 grant that South African Social Security Agency, Sassa, has given to people affected by the ongoing problems associated with the outbreak of COVID-19. So, these are good things that are happening, but the reality is that this money would be far better applied if it didn’t need to be reapplied to these two matters, which are both as a result of serious problems within the ruling party.



Let us not forget that July insurrection was a direct result of ANC internal politics. Let us not forget that the need for the additional grant that has been paid out by Sassa is because we have an extension after extension of the state of disaster that we currently find ourselves in and a continuous



extension of job-killing lockdowns, and it looks like we have another one looming in a next couple of months.



We are sitting in a position where we are appropriating money to fix problems that are being brought about by bad policy, bad government and bad arrangements within the governing party. This money could be far better spent if we apply it in the reduction of our overwhelming debt and it would reduce the cost of servicing that debt if we could only apply it to that. It is a good report. The recommendations are largely accepted but the reality is that at the end of the day, the DA cannot support this Bill as the appropriations Bill could have been applied so much better in other ways. I thank you.



Mr E J NJANDU: Good afternoon hon Chairperson, the ANC accepts the Second Special Appropriation Bill. The response of our government to the economic devastation brought about by the coronavirus pandemic has been on an epic scale. The

R500 billion package that preserve lives and livelihoods has enabled our country to mitigate the impact of the virus. The events of July 2021 in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng have set the country’s recovery a few steps back. The destruction to public private infrastructure has left scars that will take many years to heal. These scars are economic, psychological and



sociological. The communities in these two provinces are still suffering trauma from the pain inflicted by the events.



The Second Special Appropriation Bill aims to address the impact of the recent unrests and the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. Many of our compatriots are suffering from structural unemployment and extraordinary levels of poverty. Black women in particular and the youth are the most vulnerable groups who have had to bear the worst impact of the economic downturn, including loss of jobs and income. The appropriation of R26,7 billion for the Department of Social Development, which is 81,3% of the overall R32,5 billion shows the commitment of government to protect the most vulnerable citizens of our country. This R350,00 until the end of March 2024 ... [Interjections.] The ANC accepts this Bill. Thank you very much.



Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.






Mr E J NJANDU: Hon Chairperson, good afternoon. Report of Select Committee on Finance on the 2021 revised and proposed fiscal framework.



Having considered the 2021 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, of the Minister of Finance on the 2021 Revised Fiscal Framework and the 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 proposed fiscal framework, the Select Committee on Finance reports as follows:



The Minister of Finance, Mr Enoch Godongwana, tabled the 2021 Revised Fiscal Framework and the proposed 2021 Medium-Term Framework on 11 November 2021.



The Deputy Minister of Finance, Dr David Masondo, virtually briefed the committees of finance and appropriation of both Houses on 16 November, accompanied by the National Treasury team.



On the same day the committees received analysis and submissions from different stakeholders, which are: amandla.mobi, Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse, OUTA, Healthy Living Alliance, HEALA, Mr Peter Meakin, SA Institute of Chartered Accountants,



SAICA, SA Breweries, SAB and also engaged with Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO.



The Deputy Minister emphasised the need to balance socioeconomic challenges with fiscal sustainability, highlighting that debt as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product, GDP, will reach R3,4 trillion this year and that debt service costs will reach on average R334,5 billion per year and R1 trillion over the medium-term.



He said that the high levels of debt were crowding-out private sector investment and service delivery and the R1 trillion debt repayments over the medium-term could be allocated to other important expenditure items such as health and education.



The Deputy Minister cautioned that the high levels of debt were neither sustainable nor in the interest of economic growth.



The National Treasury team gave more details on the overview by the Deputy and the director-general. It explained that the COVID-19 pandemic continued to take a toll on global growth. It said that in developing economies, scarring, defined as



medium-term economic performance below pre-pandemic projections, is expected to be pervasive. It said that positive global growth outlook is predicated.



Reporting on the progress on structural reforms, National Treasury said that the procurement of additional electricity generation capacity through the fifth bid window of the Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme, REIPPP, is expected to add 6 800 megawatts of renewable energy to the grid over the medium-term. It said that raising the licensing threshold from 1 to 100 megawatts has made it possible for private power generators to sell directly to customers and this will reduce pressure on the national grid.



It said that infrastructure projects will be financed through the Infrastructure Fund using the public-private partnerships and other funding arrangements to improve planning and speed up delivery.



National Treasury assured that barring major new shocks over unbudgeted spending commitments, staying the course will lead to a primary fiscal surplus in 2024-25, bringing an end to



fiscal consolidation at the end of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period.



On the medium-term expenditure outlook, National Treasury stated that government would maintain some support to the economy over the MTEF period, including through a small increase in noninterest spending with the 2021 budget projections.



National Treasury noted and appreciated the submissions from the stakeholders. It explained that the 2021 MTBPS strikes a difficult balance between providing immediate support for the economy and shoring up the country’s public finances. It said that government has long directed the majority of public spending to address the deeply entrenched poverty and unemployment. It further reiterated that the social wage, combined public spending, health, education, housing, social protection, employment programmes and local amenities remain high by global standards.



Last but not least, National Treasury said that the 2021 budget, South Africa has benefited from a surge in global demand for commodities. It said that higher commodity prices



have temporarily increased economic growth and tax revenue. This windfall is welcome but likely temporary.



The committee’s observations in this report is that the committee acknowledges that the 2021 MTBPS was tabled under continuous difficult socioeconomic conditions of poverty, inequality and unemployment, magnified by the COVID-19 pandemic.



The committee notes the progress reported in the MTBPS on the implementation of structural reforms particularly in energy, transport, tourism, infrastructure and telecommunications as overseen by Operation Vulindlela.



Lastly, Chairperson, the committee notes that there were a number of issues raised by stakeholders during its public hearings, some of which belonged to the Appropriations Committee. These include issues on municipalities and social grants. The committee will refer these issues to the Appropriations Committee.



The committee thanks all those who participated in its processes.



Having considered the 2021 revised fiscal framework and the 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 proposed fiscal framework, the Select Committee on Finance adopts the 2021 revised fiscal framework and the 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 proposed fiscal framework as presented. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]



Declaration of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, as the committee went through the process to culminate it in the copulation of this report it became obvious how good the present government is at compiling plans and proposals, and how shockingly bad it is at implementation.



The bandwith auction, the unbundling of Eskom, the piloting of zero-based budgets, the plans to bring municipal and provincial finances under control or at least to within the law.



As we discussed these issues we were repeatedly referring back to previous reports and recommendations that are just not being implemented.



What a pity that our fine thoughts and ideas so carefully discussed and crafted over expensive meetings with top-earning



officials at our disposal are left to dry on paper; only to be pulled out next year again to ensure cross referencing by officials.



I must acknowledge that the individuals and organisations who time and again contribute substantially to these thoughts and ideas.



To all contributors and especially OUTA, SAICA and yes, even Cosatu, we appreciate the time invested and thoughtful inputs.



The committee agreed on many aspects of the fiscal framework. The reality is that there is little regal room for Treasury and the Finance Minister.



We also disagreed on several matters, often these boiled down to policy approaches.



Interestingly, the members of the committee did not disagree with one another as vehemently as the PBO disagreed with Treasury.



What everyone did agree on is that debt servicing is the fastest growing spending item.



The debt incurred through state capture has caught up to us. We could not agree on how best to deal with this. Nonetheless, there lies before us a good document which mostly summarises the discussions.



The report underemphasises discussions about restructuring government’s spending, about consequence management for non- implementation, for failure to achieve goals and outcomes, for blatant theft.



The MTBPS proposes no further bailouts for dying state-owned companies, SOEs. It promises an overdue zero-budgeting pilot. It shows some belt-tightening but not serious dent in the public wage bill.



It was most unfortunate that our new Minister of Finance was absent throughout the entire process. As in fact, he had to introduce himself to the committee.



As with all such documents and brands, they are more easily written than implemented.



The recommendations contained in this report are mostly sound but due to policy-aligned recommendations, we reject the report. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr Y CARRIM: Thank House Chairperson, firstly, Ms Labuschagne wasn’t obviously at the meetings, presumably she got some notes from some of you. But, clearly they gave a very skewed notes ... [Inaudible.] ... as those who presented the notes to her. Firstly, it’s far from the case that there was a huge blow up so to speak, why does she used those words, between Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO and National Treasury. I think the DA representative or representatives in the committee don’t understand the role of PBO. They seem to think that the PBO must be survey to Treasury – absolutely not, absolutely not, it’s in the Money Bills and Related

Matters Act, they are meant to provide independent opinions


and that’s exactly what they are doing.



The committee as we’ve repeatedly told the DA and others– is not obliged to actually accept the views of the PBO, but the PBO must do its work. That’s what the law requires and all they said was something pretty par for the course so to speak. They suggested that the approach of Treasury is not consistent with many discussions that are place in the very world bodies



to which Treasury shows a lot of compliance with. For an example, International Monitory Fund, IMF and World Bank, the world over, other multilateral agencies, very conservative local commentators, and so are they are saying that you have to have - given the crisis we have here and globally are more state oriented role. That notions of fiscal consolidation and the notions on the approach they have, to using budget deficit as a ... [Inaudible.] ... and ensuring social delivery are more complicated than the person - it isn’t a monopoly of western, there is no single answer. That’s all they were saying, it’s up to the members to decided, what they feel.



We respect with what ... [Inaudible.] ... Labuschagne says right here I think, that they often making policy at government level and at Parliament level and we don’t implement, she is right, we agree. But what she is not acknowledging is that the has been signaling improvement in the last year, notwithstanding the COVID-19 lockdown restrictions and the other constrains which we faced, not least the social unrest that broke out in July. Partly because of our failures as ANC-led government and as Parliament or parties. But, the ANC we failed, and unrest that occurred rightly points to, I think is likely to happen again unless we deal with those issues.



But, yes, there has been knocking off progress but no, it’s not as if there’s been progress. For an example there already movement towards the e-visa system which will come into effect in 2022. I gather from the media and elsewhere that the Minister of Telecommunications and Digital Technologies has negotiating an out of court settlement to get an option of spectra – ... [Inaudible.] ... we agree - next year.



The Transport Regulatory Authority has been transformed, in fact what they should welcome more than perhaps all us are doing in the ANC, but that we accept the need for this. Is actually now Transnet talking about allowing private sector participation on the rail system directly but it is state obviously must be in control, which is what the majority in the committee will support. There are other things underway, yes there are difficulties between two ministries but in short there’s movement towards independent power producing. There’s also movement towards the private sector, producing up to a 100mg of electricity and these are improvements that are taking place ... [Inaudible.] ... thank you very much ... it’s a pity I merely started ... but so be it.



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape.



AGAINST: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon delegates, as I am also inviting, my colleague Mme Ngwenya to come over. Before we can proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome our Ministers, Deputy Ministers, Members of Executive Council, MECs and special delegates, South African Local Government Association, SALGA representative present in the virtual platform and hon members in the House. As Mme Ngwenya is coming in, we shall proceed to the subject for the debate as printed on the Order Paper, Debate on positioning state- owned enterprises as the main catalyst for growth and development in South Africa. I will now call upon hon M O Mokause, to open the debate, from EFF, Northern Cape.






(Subject for Discussion)



Ms M O MOKAUSE You are below 50% and you continue hackling us in the House. Next time this legislature is going to be run by the EFF. [Interjections.] You will be sited this side of the House. [Interjections.] You undermine us at your own peril.

Undermine us at your own peril. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can you start, hon Mokause.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson of the session, this debate happens at an extremely important time where the elephant has been eaten bit by bit. Where the elephant is below 50% in the country calls South Africa where nobody sought that this is going to be possible. The EFF make it possible.



Chairperson, in all countries of the developed world, there is not even a single country that has developed without reliance on solid and well-run institutions of the state. We all know that for economies to grow, for jobs to be created, and for



countries to be stable, there needs to be a relentless effort to foster industrialisation, promote manufacturing, and for the country to develop on what it produces as far as that is practical possible.



This requires a capable state, underpinned by strategically positioned state-owned companies with the sole mandate of driving development, upskilling the nation, and providing the resources needed for the development of the country. These company’s shares must foster economic growth and serve the economic needs of the majority of our population.



State-owned enterprises and key sectors of the economy such as land, banks and mines are therefore well positioned in South Africa as the main catalyst for the developmental growth and economic development.



The reality in this country is however different, and this is as a result of a deliberate ploy by the modern agents of state capture, who go around masquerading as saviors. Almost all of South Africa’s key state-owned companies are in a perilous state, characterised by growing debts, dysfunctional management, and failure to deliver on mandates, and this has been going on for over a decade now. All this is indicative of



a deep problem of political incompetence on the part of the ruling party, who are not the least concern about running this country.



The Denel, the country’s arms manufacturing company is struggling to pay its workers, and made almost R2 billion losses for the 2019-20 financial year. This happened despite Denel having been capitalised by almost R1,8 billion in 2019. The entity had been receiving audit disclaimer for the past three fiscal years, with material concerns on issues of procurement and contracts, irregular expenditure and fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The company’s total assets for the 2019-20 financial year were standing at over R8 billion while the total liabilities amounted to over R10 billion.



The South African Airways was allowed forced to fail by the same Minister of Public Enterprises, Mr Jamnadas. When the then Chief Executive Officer of the South African Airways, SAA, Mr Vuyani Janara represented credible plans for saving the airline, he was stopped in his track by Mr Gordhan, whose intentions were to auction the South African Airline off to private sector investors who have captured him.



The South African Broadcasting Corporation is no different, it is an entity deeply immersed in the muddy pool of incompetence, maladministration and corruption, which has not had a clean audit opinion in years.



Transnet is one of the state-owned entities which provides that the current political leadership in the country is woefully out of its depth. The entity recently reported to have made losses of over R2 billion. As recent as 2018, Transnet was a profit making company, until Mr Jamnadas fired its black executives, accusing them of state capture. Now we know he did that in order to run this institution down too.



Eskom, which has been a political football for a while for the ruling party is a true example of what happens to a country that is not grounded in any ideological commitment. The entity has been deliberately run down over the past 15 years, and is now swimming in the pool of debt. The situation is made worse by the commitment of the current regime to unsustainable development power purchase agreement, which further reigns Eskom and dragging it down to its knees.



The country’s performance was worsened under the management of the white messiaha’s appointment by Pravin Gordhan, after he



embarked on a concerted effort to rid Eskom from African managers. The company continues to make serious financial losses, and is still unable to guarantee secure supply of electricity to this country, therefore curtailing any economic growth prospects.



This poor performance by almost all state-owned enterprises should not surprise South Africans. All these companies provide critical service to the nation, and the private sector has been salivating over these markets for a while. Without the state as a dependable provider of the service, the private sector will occupy the space, and provide the services at a costs to the population. The intention therefore is to weaken the state in a dramatic fashion, and kill off any aspirations for a state-led developmental programme in South Africa.



The weakening of these entities is part of a massive programme of a state capture, enabled by the current government of ill- informed and corrupt bourgeoisie tendencies represented by Mr Cyril Ramaphosa and Jamnadas Gordanh.



There is no way that a competently managed Denel cannot function in an optimal manner, in an age where research and innovations are driving arms technology development around the



world. There is no reason why Kusile and Medupi power stations have been the monumental failures that they are today, apart from the fact that this has benefited private sector, and painted the state as incompetent.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, sorry to disturb you. Hon Bebee?



Ms L C BEBEE: Objection, Chairperson. The speaker mustn’t refer to say Jamnadas. Everybody is obliged to be hon member. So, next time when she refers she must refer to a member as hon member, not Jamnadas, and not Gordhan. It is not allowed, Chairperson. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, hon member. I hope all hon members have heard what the hon member say.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, there is nothing hon member by a Minister who cannot provide guidance to state-owned entities, which are supposed to be providing. One of them is supposed to be providing electricity in this country. We are in constant load shedding. Therefore, there is nothing about Mr Gordhan.



Rather say I should say Mr Gordhan. There is nothing honourable about Jamnadas.



Central to this whole project is Mr Pravin Gordhan, and some corrupt Ministers in the Ramaphosa government. They are not incompetent, they are not clueless, they know exactly what they are doing. The ultimate aim is to strip this country of all ability to develop without going cap in hand, to beg at the doors of white capital.



The losers in all this will be the South African citizens, who will have no state to depend on when this project is all over. The only true recourse remaining at the hands of the population will be a vote. The ANC cannot be reformed, this government cannot be resuscitated, it must be destroyed, together with the agenda they are representing. As things stand, there is no recovery. You have lost all the metros in South Africa. This is the beginning. Next you will be losing legislatures. Next time we would be sitting there charring the session.



We must ask of ourselves serious questions as legislatures. What is the true state of our nation? What factors is in play here? Who are the true captures of the state, Chair? Why is it



okay for us to allow Eskom as an entity that viewed as the best in the world in just less than 20 years of the ANC government to be run down like this by unrepentant group of corrupt ideologically leapt in pertinently corrupt individuals?



Why is it okay for Eskom to be allowed to lose money investing in capacitating their own competitors in the form of building the capacity in the form of building producers and what relations do they have with President Ramaphosa and the Minister of Public Enterprises? What relations these power producers have with the President and Minister Gordhan? Why is it okay for chief executive officer of an entity like Eskom to publicly declared that he is leading a dead horse without fear publicly say I am leading a dead horse, and then there are no consequences for such utterances?



If we allow an entity like Eskom to fail, in a country as beset with inequalities and poverty like South Africa, what do we envisage the future of energy production to be in this country? If the state is erased out of energy production, generation and distribution, what will be the fate of millions of South Africans who cannot afford to buy energy from independent producers? As things stands today the cost of



electricity in this country is extremely high and the poor remains in the dark.



If South Africa’s capacity to produce technologically advanced arms, then with what ability will we be able to defend the nation in future? There is no single reason that justifies the failure of Denel except the incompetence of the ANC government. And this is deliberate. That is the whole aim of this group of corrupt individuals now leading this country.

These are gangsters leading South Africa running South Africa corrupt and down. They want to collapse the role of the state in each and every strategic sector of the economy, in order for their finances to be in charge.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, can we listen to the point of order?



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chair, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 46. The language that is used, the Rules sanctions offensive language. I think it’s important that the Chair guide hon Mmabatho Mokause in terms of how she must come across because the Rules do not make provision for offensive language in the Chamber. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya) Thanks very much, hon member. Hon Mokause, can you ... No, no.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No, no.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am continuing with my speech.





MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Mme W Ngwenya): Wa tseba ke eng, ha ke kgone hore motho ha bua a nkene hanong.



Mr T APLENI: Chairperson? I don’t think it is correct for the hon member there to stand up and say commissar Mmabatho is using the offensive language and then he is not telling us anything. What did she say that is offensive? If he can’t stand the truth on what has been said, then it means he should just go out, and then we will sit and listen. There is nothing wrong here that has been said. And I even wondering why you are entertaining that. So, please, Chair, can you allow commissar Mmabatho ... please.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr W Ngwenya): Hon Mmoiemang, I have checked the Rule. Can you tell us. I have checked on the Rule. Yes, what you are saying is fine. It is on Rule 46 on offence and abandon coming language. Yes!



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: I think the Chair had to rule on the matter. Allow the speaker to continue. I am just sensitising the speaker that in terms of how she come across. I think the language is important because the Rules are clear. Thank you, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, hon member. Hon Mokause, I think it would make our work easy for all of us.





Ha re hlomphane jwalo ka ...





... abahlonishwa.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No, no, no.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): You can’t speak.





Ithi ngikhulume IsiZulu, angizange ngikukhombe.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I have never recognise you.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I have never recognise you. I am done.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Ngiqedile ukukhuluma nesikhulumi.





You are not the speaker.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can you sit down.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can you sit down.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): You are the one who is going to go out.





Njengoba ubona abanye ukuthi bazophuma, kuzophuma wena manje.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, can you please sit down. I am continuing with the speaker.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I have taken the ruling that the speaker who was on the podium must continue.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Ngizokukhipha!



Mr T APLENI: It is my right, can you recognise me.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): It is my right as the Chair to take a ruling.



Mr T APLENI: What ruling? Rule on what?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Sit down. And the member must continue to speak.



Mr T APLENI: What are you ruling on?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I am ruling that the speaker must continue and you must listen.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hlala phansi, ngizokukhipha ngempela. Hlala phansi!



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson? Chairperson? It’s a member’s


right. The right to make appoint of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No, no.





Le se ka la etsa jwalo, se ka etsa jwalo.





I take a ruling, hon member. You can speak





... udabule amazwe, wenzeni.





I take a ruling that the member must continue to speak.



Mr T APLENI: What ruling is that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): The ruling is that the member must continue to speak.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible] ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Ngicela uhlale phansi. Anginazo isikhathi sokwenza le nto oyenzayo. Hlala phansi!





We gave you the ruling.



Mr T APLENI: ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Mokause, can you please continue.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, in as much as I wanted to continue before but I was hoping that the Chief Whip will give direction to the House because we can’t be leaderless like this. If a member rises on a point of order, he should be afforded an opportunity and be granted space to raise a point of order. But nonetheless I will continue.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Continue.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, the reality is that the gangsters have lost the metros in South Africa. If this happens, the ANC would leave a legacy far worse than apartheid. It would leave black people with absolutely nothing, and would have handed over to white people almost all keys of the enterprises. We must resist this treasonous attempt by all means necessary. It is our vote. No one will tell us what to do with our vote. We must resist the capture of Eskom, of Transnet, of Denel, of SAA, and of every other important institution of the state.

They did not vote for the EFF. All people sited here, you cannot be telling the EFF what to do with their vote.



What is crucial for South Africa is well managed state-owned enterprises that deliver on their developmental mandate in order to achieve inclusive economic development, lift growth levels and expand infrastructure in South Africa.



Under this political leadership of Pravin Gordhan, state-owned enterprises financial and management crises deepened without a practical and implementable plan to rescue them.



In the hands of an inefficiency, incapable government this can often undermine the work of the SOEs eating away at its competitiveness and efficiency and opening itself up to corruption, mismanagement and technical incompetence of staff.



South Africans must rise up and say no to this deliberate destruction of the state by apartheid agents who now run government in collaboration with apartheid business people. Thank you, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, hon member. Yes?



Mr M NHANA: Chairperson, thanks for taking my point of order. I thought I needed to rise, Chair, because I am fearing a situation where you setting the wrong precedent. Every member of this House has a right to rise on a point of order whether you like the member or not. I am rising because today its hon Apleni, tomorrow is going to be myself subjected to this suppression. And who knows days after tomorrow it will be Denis Ryder. So hon Chair, I am pleading with you be patient with member of this House because he has every right to rise on a point of order. Thank you, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, hon member. Chief Whip?



The CHIEIF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you, House Chair. I do agree with the comment that is made that all members must enjoy their rights privilege for a point of order in the House. What we need to caution though against in the House is hon members who enter into a dialogue with the presiding officer. In an event that the presiding officer may have given an incorrect call there is a Table Staff, there is an appeal measures that is taken by hon member.



Parliament cannot deteriorate into abusive language. Members are used with their full names for instance in the just hon member. And provocation is discouraged that will deteriorate the decorum of the House. And there is nothing wrong that you have said. You said that members must tone down their language and hon speaker on the platform should proceed. This was what the Chair said earlier. So, I think we should avoid a temptation of making our own rulings when you call for point of order. Thanks.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, Chief Whip. Thanks, hon members. Can we continue with our speakers?



The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon Chairperson and good afternoon to the hon members of the NCOP. Thank you for this opportunity to participate in a debate which hopefully will give us greater insight into positioning state- owned entities, SOEs, as an important catalyst for growth and development in South Africa.



Of course, let me say at the outset that abuse is not the same as debate, and that regrettably, those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones – an adage that all of us are extremely familiar with. Also regrettably, we have had little insights from the proposer of the motion, hon Mokause, about what is an SOE, where it fits into the modern state, what kind of role have governments played in the recent past in the face of pandemics and other crises that are facing humanity including climate change itself, and how do we do things differently in South Africa to avoid what is real state capture by, if I may use the term in inverted commas, the “real gangsters” who parade our streets in one or other kind of uniform. Let me make 10 points.



The first is that this government’s policies in relation to


SOEs and growth and development, is firstly, premised on the



Freedom Charter; secondly, the Constitution of this country; and thirdly, on the policies of the governing party.



In the preamble of the Constitution, we make reference to establishing a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights. We also say that the foundations for a democratic and open society must be laid by this Constitution.



Thirdly and importantly, the Constitution behooves us to improve the quality of life of all citizens and to free the potential of each person.



Similarly, in the founding provisions of the Constitution, it says that the democratic state is founded on the following values — human dignity, nonracialsm and nonsexism, the supremacy of the Constitution, the rule of law, and above all universal adult suffrage, which is necessary in order to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.



The Bill of Rights, amongst the many rights that it contains, says under the clause on equality, that everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.



Similarly, in clause 10 under human dignity, everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected, which is what economic growth and development should result in.



Under clause 22 — freedom of trade, occupation and profession, every citizen has the right to freely choose their trade, occupation or profession. The practice of a trade, occupation or profession may be regulated by law.



Similarly, in a fairly elaborate section 23, labour relations and the rights of workers and employers are spelt out.

Importantly, it states that everyone has a right to fair labour practices, and in the current context where climate change has come to the fore and Cop 26 has just finished in Glasgow in the UK, the Bill of Rights indicates that everyone has the right to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing, and to have the environment protected for the benefit of present and future generations through reasonable legislative and other measures.



So, those are the foundations upon which any policy in South Africa should be based.



The second proposition is that the purpose of growth — and I’m going to come back to defining growth differently to what we normally do — and development is to rid ourselves of the lack of integrity pandemic that is sweeping through this country, where very few can actually point fingers at others.



We have the poverty pandemic, we have the unemployment pandemic, we have a patronage pandemic and above all we have the corruption pandemic, particularly by those who make the loudest noises about these sorts of issues. This is counterposed against the focus on inclusive growth, not just ordinary growth, which is very important and timely ... as this debate is.



Similarly, in a country wracked by unemployment, inequality and a legacy of marginalisation, a meaningful and concrete discussion on what development means in our context is equally important, and one trusts that future speakers will contribute to this.



Growth and development is both a science and an art. They are products of but also influence the political economy of a country, and again, an important issue in our current context for us to address.



Most importantly, inclusive growth in particular and development is about people. The SOEs are about people. The state is about people. Our institutions in Parliament are about people, meaning that at the end of the day the

60 million people of South Africa must be the beneficiaries of the policies that we have, of the debates that we engage in and above all, the programmes that we try to implement. It is certainly not about exploiting the conditions of the poor for cheap populism or about misleading slogans to hide the unfettered theft of funds and resources meant for the benefit of working people, which is of course the norm in many countries in the world and amongst some in the South African context as well.



My third point is the policy framework within which the governing party works at present, which I at the outset said is the Freedom Charter and the Constitution, but importantly, its commitment to a mixed economy — an economy in which the state, SOEs, the private sector, the social sector and above all the people, have an important role to play.



The role of the state has become an increasingly important one, particularly as we went through the financial crisis in 2008-09, but more so now as we go through the COVID pandemic



and over the next 20 to 30 years as we take humanity out of the danger zone as far as climate change is actually concerned. So, the role of the state has changed pre-and post the Thatcher and Reagan era of neoliberalism. It is a demand today that the state be nimble, efficient and committed to make sure that the people are beneficiaries, as I said earlier on. The state must not be captured by insiders or cronies or rent-seekers who want to fill their bank accounts and pockets rather than ensure that our people enjoy a better standard of living.



Similarly, our policy on the economy is one which involves all the sectors I mentioned earlier on, including the informal sector which is very small in South Africa, and small and micro businesses which are miniscule in South Africa compared to other developing countries.



However, the key is not just to have the policy. The key is to make sure that these policies are actually implemented. Our President Ramaphosa said, in response to the challenges posed by the pandemic, “We are resolved not merely to return our economy to where it was before the coronavirus, but to forge a new economy in a new global reality”. I hope that the other speakers will bring forward what these new global realities



are. How do they impact upon South Africa and the African continent? What does it mean that vaccines were not available to the developing countries and are still not available to the majority of the population on the African continent and in other developing countries as well? What does it mean when only half a dozen countries can produce these vaccines and the rest of us didn’t have the capability to actually do so until more recently? What does it mean when we say that there are supply chain shocks that are impacting both the developed and developing countries? What does it mean when there are the kind of rises or increases in the fuel price and what it means for ordinary citizens at this point in time? Above all, what does it mean when climate change is beginning to impact on different countries in different kinds of ways as well?



In response to some of these challenges, government has developed the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP. This is my fourth point. This recovery plan is about saving lives and livelihoods. It’s about making sure that the negative economic impact of the pandemic is mitigated in some way; that reconstruction, post the July insurrection, is undertaken in a diligent kind of way; that certain sectors of our economy — agriculture, manufacturing and other export economies ... or sectors of the economy — recover,



particularly in relation to the services economy and tourism, retail, wholesale and similar sectors of the economy as well.



Through the Presidency and the National Treasury, we have put in place the Vulindlela project which is about project management, which is about ensuring that programmes such as the youth employment programme led by the Presidency, is actually given effect and implemented properly. For example, so far over 330 000 young people have been employed in the various schools in our country as administrative assistants and that has been on a massive scale in a very short period of time. Similar efforts will be made in respect of other sectors as well.



Above all, the impact on our small and large businesses, and the very small as well in many of our townships, needs to be mitigated on the one hand, while on the other hand institutions like the SA Special Risk Insurance Association, Sasria, need to give them the assistance that they actually require post the negative impact of the July uprising, as some actually prefer to call it.



So, what we have is that the South African economy is in a very challenged state at the moment, where there are low



levels of investment and growth; where there are a series of downgrades by ratings agencies, although ... the more recent report two of the agencies decided not to go in that direction; where the cost of borrowing is an important impediment and a burden on the fiscus, as I’m sure the Treasury has pointed out to you; and where there are revenue leakages where many are not paying their taxes, and I’m sure that applies to some very interesting people in our society who have lavish lifestyles which can’t be justified on the basis of their income and on which they should actually pay their fair share of tax.



So, all of this results in a constrained fiscal space and that means that there are constraints on both the social programmes and the kind of investments that government can actually make as well.



So, the ERRP as we call it, is to ensure that the idea of building a sustainable, resilient and inclusive economy is one that we take forward in an assiduous and diligent way.



However, let me return to the concept which is in the title of the motion ... or the subject of debate, which is economic growth and development. The world has moved on from the notion



of growth and has moved to a new concept of inclusive growth, and I will describe just some of the characteristics of what inclusive growth is.



Firstly, it’s an investment in human capital. It’s about developing our people’s skills, our people’s innovation, abilities and their enterprising qualities that we are going to require as a society, apart from the debates that we are having post the local government election, in order, regardless of which political party you belong to, you are able to actually make a meaningful contribution to economic growth, particularly inclusive economic growth, in our society.



Job creation is an important part of inclusivity. Structural transformation and broad-based growth is equally important. A progressive tax policy, which we have, but perhaps which could become more progressive as well, is another quality. Social protection ... South Africa has done a lot in this particular regard, and I’m sure hon members will come up with more ideas in this particular regard. Nondiscrimination, social inclusion and participation are equally important criteria of inclusivity, and strong institutions which support inclusivity become an important component as well.



So, inclusive growth is then a distinct concept from standard economic growth, which the proposer of the debate made no reference to whatsoever.



Drawing on the literature, a working definition of inclusive growth that is developed by some agencies, is one in which we have a broader objective than increasing income and GDP, and requires governments to proactively work to achieve those objectives rather than assuming that positive outcomes will automatically come through growth.



Secondly, translate those gains into human development and increased wellbeing – something that we don’t give enough attention to. Benefit all groups in society, including the most marginalised, and above all reduce poverty and inequality.



Two further considerations are, firstly, to consider participation, not just distribution outcomes, and therefore focus on increasing the active participation in the economy by as many people as possible, and a say in how the economy is run. Secondly, promote the sustainable use of natural resources and climate protection, which I referred to earlier on.



Equally as important as inclusive growth is the concept of structural transformation, which is something that South Africa needs and has been working towards, but not adequately at this point in time, to ensure that there is broad-based growth. I quote from a particular text that I read:



For most developing countries, the route to inclusive growth lies in shifting to more productive economic activities of structural transformation.

This reduces an over-reliance on a few sectors, which in turn increases stability and can generate more and better jobs. Without economic transformation, the poor will remain locked into low return activities and any progress will be volatile. First it places the focus on tangible outcomes rather than on achieving preferred policies, with the presupposition that these will lead to poverty reduction.



In other words, let’s not just engage in slogans. Let’s engage in substantive debates and programmes that changes the nature of the economy in South Africa.



We need to remind policy makers that pursuing reforms is not an end in its own right, as many economists think. For example, the Growth Commission, which you will find if you Google it, calls for a pragmatic and proactive approach by government. It advocates for an experimental approach to the implementation of economic policies in developing countries since the impact of preferred policies are unknown and models do not reliably predict outcomes in this context.



Secondly, it places an emphasis on identifying the direct impact on poor men and women, and the parts of the economy that are important to them either for employment or for the supply of goods and services such as agriculture or the informal sector. It is not sufficient to increase growth. It is necessary to be mindful of the costs and benefits to the poorest. The earlier approaches to liberalising economies have been criticised for ignoring the equity aspects of policies.



So where do SOEs fit into this equation and what role do they actually have to play? If one has to reflect on South Africa’s past and the present, and indeed think about the future ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): As you conclude, hon Minister. Conclude.



The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I beg your pardon? I have two minutes ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Conclude. Yes, you are left with one minute.



The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you very much. The ideal SOE is one that supplies strategic services; that provides innovation capability; that is a risk taker; that is an entrepreneur; and that is not just a market failure interventionist but also a market shaper as well.



So, it is in this regard that the ANC has clear policies in its document, Ready to Govern, which guides us in terms of which SOEs we keep, which SOEs we need to reconstruct, which SOEs we need to close and which SOEs we actually need to create as well. That effort is being undertaken through the Presidential State-Owned Enterprises Council.



Let me conclude by making the following two points. Firstly, the journey of SOEs as contributors to inclusive growth and development was disrupted by state capture, the real state capturers, not the President, not anybody else, not myself, but perhaps others that are not too far from you, Chairperson.



Secondly, let me also say that there are many things about SOEs that we could do differently. Certainly ... Eskom, if we had time, I could give you the details. The hon member is completely wrong about the facts around Eskom; who brought about state corruption ... state capture and corruption; what damage they left Eskom with; and what it is that we have to deal with in getting Eskom onto the right footing.



Lastly, let me say and ... remind ourselves about our constitutional foundation, and about our commitment to people and inclusive growth and development. The SOEs can play their role, provided they have a capable and bold leadership on the one hand but secondly, that they are geared to fit in with the markets in which they actually operate. However, we also require a capable and an enterprising ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr T B MATIBE: House Chairperson, greetings to hon members. Maybe just to start, the ANC has won 166 municipalities outright without coalitions. I have heard the hon members saying there. When I look at statistics and the results, the part of the hon member has no single municipality that have won outright or in alliance. The other people have been told that we don’t want their votes, but they went there begging



and handing over their votes. That is a debate for another day, Chairperson.



Chairperson of the House, mine is an attempt to flock the theme of the debate at hand but choosing rather to confine myself to the politics around the role of state owned entities, SOEs, as well as the strengths and weaknesses in the context of economic recovery. This debate is a first attempt to critically examine the role of SOEs in sparing economic growth development under the current COVID-19 conditions and the subsequent lockdown restrictions thereof.



Although this is an important debate, the theme is rather simplistic, and to put it differently does not survive a more carefully scrutiny very well. While suggesting the SOEs are essential for economic growth and development as they make substantial contribution to the economy and job creation, it almost exclusively assume that the casualty runs from the SOEs to the economic growth and development ignoring the imperative possibility of economic and political constrain. But almost exclusively looking at how SOEs and economic growth and development interact with each other without a full understanding of economic and political constraints under which the interaction occurs, the theme gives us only a



partial picture. In simple words, the relationship between SOEs and economic growth and development is far more complex than what the theme suggests.



Having said this, it is important to brake from the heroic yet untenable conventional wisdom that SOEs can be the main catalysts of economic growth and development. However, this does not imply that extensive co-ordinated economic and political intervention to enable SOEs to play strategic role in sparing economic growth and development are well beyond administrative faculties of the ANC-led government.



To come to grips with this we need to broaden our horizon and think about the concept of developmental state, especially the crucial roles that the SOEs play in the economic success of such a state. Thinking about a developmental state does not only allow us to throw more detailed lessons regarding the key roles that the SOEs play in positioning South Africa as one of the developmental states in Africa, but gives us the right policy advice to determine whether or not SOEs live up to the expectation.



Of course, a developmental state is a highly contested concept. Given all this, the concept of developmental state



has led to what the late Thandika Mkandawire refers to as thick description, thin explanation syndrome. Where there is privilege of this, prescription and evaluation over explanation. To avoid being simplistic about this, the dominant view of most opposition parties though, not all, is that the ANC-led government has become a milestone around efficient market. The opposition parties basically argue that the liberalise market that promoted maximum economic freedom and protects private property rights will unlock investment, thus promote economic growth and development. The silence regarding the role of the state has always been central in this argument.



Going further, the comprehension of a developmental state by other parties has usually been limited to nationalisation which includes total ownership of strategic sectors of the economy. However, there is a view that is not fitting within the scheme of things. One example is the ANC-led government’s ideological and theoretical understanding of the developmental state. The ANC-led government defines a developmental state as one whose self-objective goals are developmental, one that utilises its administrative capacity and resources to achieve socioeconomic development for all South Africans. Evidently, the ANC-led government attempts to build developmental state



with neither liberalise nor total state ownership characters. Rather, the ANC-led government seeks to build a developmental state in a mixed economy where there is public and private sector partnership.



There is a widely held perception that a mixed economy that the ANC adopted compels government to conform faithfully to the dictated of conglomerate capital. In other words, mixed economy as a form of organising economy inordinately benefits domestic conglomerates and international financial corporations to the exclusion of a set progressive social objectives.



This popularised perception is misleading because it presumes the ANC-led government cannot do anything economically and socially desirable without facing major opposition from conglomerates with international leagues. The reality suggests otherwise; government has the organisational strengths to execute its socioeconomic objectives, SOEs composite a large part of government’s organisational strength.



For the sake of clarity, Transnet’s performance with respect to transporting heavy mining commodities remain impressive in the recent Medium-Term Budget speech the Minister of Finance



mentioned that the mining sector contributes R120 million towards government’s fiscus through mining taxes. The good performance of the mining sector was partially driven by Transnet’s dedicated routes for the movement of heavy commodities.



It is as a result of the efficiency of Transnet’s dedicated routes that South Africa is ranked with the top 10 in global markets for competitive exports of iron ore and coal, respectively. Of course, success of Transnet with respect to moving heavy commodities perpetuates extractive economy which the National Development Plan, NDP, deems unsustainable.



As a recourse to this, the Department of Public Enterprise strategic plan indicates that over the five-year period ending 2024-25 Transnet plans to invest R141 billion in capital expenditure, particularly in rail port, pipeline infrastructure across its division to sustain and expand capacity. This will enable Transnet to diversify its logistic services and accelerate connectivity to rural markets.



Eskom provides a lot of evidence to support extractive remark. In 2019 roadmap for Eskom, in a reformed electricity supply industry reports that Eskom will ensure that there is



sufficient capacity and expertise to oversee the proposed execution of functional and legal separation of the entity. The roadmap focus on unbundling of Eskom into three entities, generation, transmission and distribution. Starting with the transmission company. The transmission company is in its final stage.



Eskom is a critical entity that should be allowed to thrive. Currently, Eskom generates 95% of the electricity used in South Africa and 45% used in Africa. More importantly, access to electricity in South Africa has increased from 76,7% in 2002 to more than 85% in 2021 through the Department of Minerals and Energy integrated National Electricity Programme.



Critics may argue that later assertion feeds a blind faith that things will get better for Eskom to serve as an engine of economic growth and development. The ANC-led government would like to counter those critics. Our reason is simple: The assessment of economic growth development should not be limited to the rise and decline of gross domestic product, GDP. To be more specific, the assessment of economic growth and development cannot be divorced from the lives that people can lead and real freedoms that people can enjoy.



Therefore, the importance of Eskom in our economy, even if it is measured in a narrow view broth of decline of GDP should recognise the basic liberties and democratic right are also constituent components of economic growth and development.

Consider the example, Eskom is responsible for the lion’s


share of SOE distribution of 220billion to the economy. Moreover, Eskom has more than 47 000 employees, indirectly creates 188 000 more jobs to service electricity sector. So, Eskom has not completed but more progress in contribution to the GDP and changing the lives of the poor people in South Africa.



Going further, the Northern Cape province has a comprehensive economic plan which involves, among other things, the creation of Namakwa special economic zone in the ... [Inaudible.] The Namakwa special economic zone seek to develop road network that enables the network to access domestic, regional and international markets while the cost of moving cargo within the provincial ... [Inaudible.]



These projects will reduce challenges that Alexkor might be facing in two complimentary ways. The Namakwa will contribute towards the process of attracting mining industry thereby



enabling the joint venture in Alexkor to accumulate revenues that contribute to socioeconomic empowerment.



House Chairperson, our SOEs include ones not mentioned here being under pressure. They are trying to overcome operational, monetary and years of corruption difficulties. Regardless of that, the ANC-led government is keen on deepening their presence in our economy so that we can fulfil their functions. South Africa’s economy has a sophisticated financial sector which leads to economy and mining and agricultural sector plays an important role in the economy. The sophistication of the economy in the context of Fourth Industrial Revolution means that all sectors need to contribute to inclusive economic growth, job creation and development as alluded to previously by Minister Gordhan.



That is the essence of economic reconstruction and recovery plan, infrastructure development in terms of the expansion of generation capacity of electricity, improvement in transport sector, development of harbour amongst other few projects which are being driven to ensure economic growth is possible.



Industrialisation such as motor component and automatic industry which expand operation in South Africa is critical to economic growth.



As I conclude, government plays a central role and strategic role in ensuring the ease of doing business and encouraging investment in conjunction with social partners. This is the people driven process to create a better life for all. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I rise on a point of order. I just want to remind the House that the new Rules that were reviewed since 2018 or 2016 is not adopted by this Council yet. So, according to Rule 12 in the absence of all presiding officers the Council may elect one of its members to act as a chairperson of the Council for that day only. The question being by the Secretary, hon Chair, with all respect, that procedure has not be followed to put you in the chair. Would the Chief Whip or the Secretary please get this House in order? Thank you.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, the hon member was responding to a revolutionary call of nature, hence our intervention. Hon



Winnie Ngwenya, the stage is set for you. Thank you, hon Chair.



Mr M NHANHA: The theme of this debate is “Positioning state- owned enterprises as the main catalyst for growth and development in South Africa.” I am afraid this theme is actually well passed its sell by date. It is stale for a long time. What baffles me hon members, is that state-owned enterprises have long been positioned to be main catalysts for growth and development in our country and this is even long before the democratic dispensation. So, that is out of question.



Instead, the correct theme for this debate should in fact be and I quote:



Taking stock of the role played by state-owned enterprises, SOEs, as catalyst for growth and development in South Africa.



For the current theme as it stands boxes in, and limits members from critically engaging with the state of our SOEs because there is quite frankly not enough of a good story to tell.



A few months ago, we were in this Chamber, we were debating the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Enterprises, hon members went to great lengths arguing the divergent opinions on what has become of the department that I have mentioned above. During that debate I submitted to this House and I will dare say it again today that the very ill considered intentions of establishing a Department of Public Enterprises, was to place the state at the centre of development.



This is a socialist project that has not only failed where it originates in the then Union of Socialist Soviet Republic, but has led to untold hardships in Venezuela, it has perpetuated under development in Cuba and annihilated economies across the African continent. And off course hon members, as usual arrogance reared its ugly head again as this was brushed aside by the Deputy Minister, and I was told to stay in the wilderness much to the amusement of members of the ANC benches.



What I found astonishing from those who supported its existence and by extension the relevance of SOEs in our current circumstances was not much facts and scientific research about the success of the philosophy came to the fore,



except wishful thinking and clinging to the rhetoric and


slogans of “ism.”



Without exception, all our SOEs have been a burden to the fiscus and the taxpayers by asking for one bail out after another, by asking for one government guarantee after another. Boards are regularly changed and so are the chief executive officers, CEOs, as and when a new Minister comes to office.

The policy of chop and change does not work in the world of business, it only creates instability and uncertainty amongst its employees and most importantly the people you are doing business with.



The Minister of Finance, the hon Enoch Godongwana must be commended for his hardline stance on bailouts to SOEs and this is shown in the Medium-Term Budget that there are no plans to pour money we do not have in a dark bottomless pit called SOEs.



It is unfortunate thou, tens of billions were sucked from the national fiscus with no outcomes to show for it. The message is loud and clear, shape up or ship out. The truth is, the policy of placing SOEs at the centre of economic growth and job creation has not only spectacularly failed, but instead



brought down our economy with them and they are one of the causes of unemployment. They are an antithesis of what they were intended or established to achieve.



For those who read the Bible, in the book of John 21:6.






Mr M NHANHA: Thank you very much, my sister - Jesus caught up with fishermen who spent days at sea, yet their fishing nets came empty. So, Jesus asked them to throw their nets on the right side of the boat. The Bible says when they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish. Can somebody say amen again.



The moral of this scripture hon members, in the context of our country, it is about time we cast our net on the right side of the boat. As Einstein once said and I quote:



The definition of insanity is continuing doing the same thing all over again and over again and then expecting a different result.



The government has tried and failed. They cost our country’s economy. It is time to close shop. Let business do what they do best that is running business without politicians meddling in the affairs of business. We should strive to create a conducive environment as government, with less red tape. By so doing, we will create an inclusive nation which all of us are striving for.



Hon Chairperson, in conclusion, allow me and please join me in congratulating the DA and its coalition partners Byers Naude Municipality in the Eastern Cape for having managed to form a government in a council meeting held yesterday in Graaff Reinet. Congratulate the DA’s Cllr Ewald Loock for being elected as the Beyers Naude Municipality.



Commends the voters in the Kouga Local Municipality for having re-elected the DA led by the Executive Mayor Horatio Hendricks to once again lead that municipality for five years and continue to deliver the much needed services to its communities.



The DA shall remain humble and serve all the voters with humility and respect that they deserve. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.



Mr T A MOKONE (Limpopo: MEC for Economic Development, Environment & Tourism): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister Gordhan, hon Deputy Ministers, House Chairperson for Committees and Oversight, hon delegates, it is my singular honour having been given the opportunity to address the NCOP on the most important topic of, Positioning State-Owned Enterprise as the Main Catalyst for Growth and Development in South Africa.



Indeed, SOEs are influential and a growing force globally and are likely to remain an important instrument in government’s tool box for societal and public value creation. The future of SOEs will need to be much actively owned and managed - as if it is business - to deliver real public value. To achieve this, SOEs should avoid competing unfairly in the market where private and third-sector enterprise can deliver more efficiently and effectively the goods and services that citizens needs and want. State-owned entities play an important part in the economic development initiatives for the province, the country and in the world.



SOEs should further more become more focused and generate revenue. The SOEs have a pool-prong approach – which is a developmental approach for a revenue generation. The Limpopo Provincial Government has more than eight SOEs with



independent board members. The SOEs are listed as Schedule 3D as the Public Finance Management Act requires.



The government provides grants for capital on both the capital and operations, but in terms of 3D scheduled SOEs, the provincial department has resolve that they should be financial viable by 2021 to 2024. On a regular basis, the agencies assess their roadmap towards self-sufficiency. For the purpose of today’s session, we will use three SOEs to illustrate that SOEs can indeed remain catalysts for growth and development in South Africa.



These are the subsidiaries of the Limpopo Department of Economic Development, Environment and Tourism, Ledet: The first agency under consideration is Risima Housing Finance, which fulfills the requirement of the gap market for the lower-to-middle class that is not catered for by the Department of Human Settlements and other commercial banks.



Risima is the housing finance agency and will expand its prime mandate to provide funding to property developers mainly focusing on human settlements. It is a financial viability company that has a positive return on investment and is able to fund for its operation in the last five years. They use



their own balance sheet to borrow from their lending institutions.



Risima has supported on average 3 500 consumers in the last three years. Risima’s modus operandi is to grow partners. They currently have partnership with the rural housing loan shark, where they received R50 million in the financial year 2020-21, and they will be receiving R150 million in the current financial year.



Another partnership is with Absa, which is R550 million. They are currently finalising funding with PIC for R500 million and provincial core structure as a subsidy for the gap market.

They have partnership with mining houses to fund employees with houses and development of land parcels for human settlements.



Furthermore, Risima will be collaborating with Musina-Makhado Special Economic Zone, to allow a stake in human settlement. The company has received clean audits in the last three years, and is the recipient of the Govan Mbeki Award for the best settlements company in the province.



The Great North Transport is a provincial bus company for transport. On average, it spends R12 million over a year, and employs 829 workforce. The company has 266 buses currently. It provides opportunities for SMMEs for procurement, fuel, tyres and batteries. GNT provides skills training for its workforce in partnership with TVET colleges and SETAs. GNT is currently making R30 million per month as part of its own revenue. The company projects to be profitable from 2024 to 2025.



New Era, which is an insurance company. It does credit, life and funeral insurances with other institutions and insurance brokers. They have 30 000 signed members. They have 33 funeral parlours and partners, and eight independent financial service providers and intermediaries. New Era has been impacted negatively by Covid-19. As a result, there is a rise in mortality rate. They have not yet had profitability and will yield a positive return on this investment 2023.



The Limpopo Provincial Government initiated a process to reconfigure the Limpopo provincially-owned entities, with a view to improve efficiency, remove duplication and put provincial administration on the better path to serve the citizens of the province. This exercise involves the rigorous task of evaluating the provincial legislation pertaining to



public entities, as well as review of the month, corporate form, business model and evaluating sustainability of public enterprises.



In the final analysis, we can say without doubt that SOEs will continue to be vital catalysts of economic growth in South Africa. If we had to learn from other countries which were in similar situations previously, and which have made an enormous progress, is that state had to play a significant role in the developmental trajectory of the country. China, for example has made it with the implementation of the programme.



Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for your indulgence. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, fellow South Africans at home, time has changed and it is time for this government to re-evaluate the purpose, the necessity as well as the relevance of every singly public entity. There needs to be re-evaluation of the different functions and elements within public enterprise. We must remember that at the time of the establishment of such entities, there was a need as well as a vacuum in the market for the state to step in and fill that gap, but as time pass, the private sector has



not only caught up and build the capacity to be able to fulfil the space, but also done its homework competitively. Do you realise that South Africa has the fifth longest rail network in the world. However, this network is totally underutilised and in many areas turned into a white elephant, vulnerable to vandalism and looting, if anything is still left for that matter. This while our roads are overloaded by heavy trucks, doing what rails should, which damages our road network and leave the state with the unsustainable maintenance-cost burden. They say a rail network is like a spine of a country. It keeps its standing straight and tow.



A DA-led government will ensure that it will invest in a sustainable, reliable and strategic rail and road infrastructure network that can stimulate this economy and kick-start the necessary economic growth that will create jobs for the millions of South African citizens sitting at home today. Just imagine this: A rail network linking the town of Mokopane and Mokgalakwena with the mines, villages and the agricultural hubs on the way to Medupi and Lephalale Power Stations.



The transport like goods as well as passengers, linking the rural economy directly to the main cities which give



entrepreneurs access to bigger markets and people and access to job opportunities. Along the rail network, at every small station in the villages, there are opportunities for ordinary people to make a living of selling goods and services to passengers.



The fact that the ANC champions itself as the defender of poor South Africans whilst it constantly raises the price of petrol and not provide the alternative means of travel is a disgrace. Trains transporting raw material from the mines to the smelters without causing unnecessary congestion on our roads and save us billion of rands on maintenance. It will also save many lives as lots of accidents are cause by trucks that frustrate passenger vehicles on the road, and they start to take chances just to be able to pass.



Just go and look at N11 in Mokgalakwena. DA will also ensure that every community in the country has accessed sustainable, reliable and cost-effective data and communication network. As the internet and meteavas is the future and everything will need to link up to make artificial intelligence, self-driving vehicles and robotics a possibility. We must keep up with the world or we will be left behind.



My question to you today is: Is this ANC-led government willing and able to take the hardened decisive measures to ensure that the money is correctly redirected towards kick- starting this economy once again? Unfortunately, I doubt it, as the ANC-led government is stuck in the dark cave of the past, which is smeared with an old and delusional ideas of radical ideologies that have been proven a failure over and over all over the world.



You kept on bailing out debt-ridden enterprises that had no value at all, but rather hang like a metal ball on a chain at the ankle of this country and its people, dragging us deeper and deeper down towards a dark fiscal sea bottom.



The ANC needs to let go of this obsession of Eskom monopoly on electricity generation, to open up the flood gates for eager and capable power producers who will compete based on delivery and supply the grid with power and water to the consumer.



The future is all about sustainable energy because the technologies of the fourth industrial revolution will need a lot of energy to sustain itself, which must be secured, stable and cheap. The DA has a vision to make the future possible.

Thank you.



Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much. Greetings to the Chairperson of the House and also our colleagues. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to take part in this debate whereby I’ll be able to tell hon Smit what the ANC-led government has done. House Chairperson, the government has responded to low economic growth and economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic with the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan.



The Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is a government- driven program with the social partners, namely, business and labor. This is an economic plan based on a number of critical components which is intended to ensure infrastructure development and job creation resulting in inclusive economic growth. Amongst others, the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, gives priority to the modernisation of freight and transport industry. The current state of the freight and transport industry does not have structural potentials to be conducive to the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRPs, priorities. Thus, the ANC-led government is taking deliberate actions to fix this industry to realise the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan priorities, for instance, Chairperson, the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, through Metrorail services is the central



operator for low-income households in South Africa especially in urban metropolitan areas.



Currently, Metrorail transport has an estimated 700 000 commuters a day. The Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRPs, priorities to reverse delays in Metrorail modernisation will reposition rail as the backbone of the public transport and to promote an integrated transport network where rail becomes the mode of choice for commuters. Of course, Chairperson, this does not suggest that the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plans, ERRPs, intention is to enable rail a clear edge over other alternative modes of transport. In terms of control over the freight and transport industry, conversely the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, is committed to fast-track the approved integrated public transport networks where rail will exist alongside other modes of transport to the previous pattern of apartheid special planning that continued to make access to public transport a cumbersome task.



The case of Metrorail is a paramedic example of how steadfast the ANC-led government is to the realisation of development that is inclusive insofar as creating the conducive environment for the private sector for flourishing is



concerned. Moreover, Metrorail indirectly contributes to economic growth and development because it transports the labour force that is responsible for the production capacities of most industries that contribute to the country’s gross domestic products. Chairperson, prior to the advent of COVID-

19 condition the ANC-led government again had committed itself to geographic and energy strategic integrated projects.



The purpose of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is to decisively deal with the structural challenges that have been constraining the type of routes. The ANC-led government wishes to make the current congestive of COVID-19 condition presents an opportunity to fast-tracking and geographic energy sustainable infrastructure partnerships, SIPs, will be accelerated because they are tied up with the ANC government, the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP. Take for example, hon Chairperson, one of the energy sustainable infrastructure partnership, SIP, is to support the green economy initiatives on a national scale through a diverse range of clean energy option. This strategy goal is currently carried out by the Department of Minerals and Energy Integrated Resource Plan 2019, which focuses on promoting energy access, efficiency and diversity.



Chairperson, it is a well-known fact that Eskom is unable to meet growing demand requiring the expansion of the electricity generation, transmission and distribution to create the necessary security of electricity supply. To adapt to the fast changing of electricity environment, Eskom is procuring renewable energies from independent power producers to fill the energy supply gap and ensure the supply demand balance in South Africa. In this regard, hon members, Eskom is not only fast-tracking energy sustainable infrastructure partnerships SIPs, but also accelerating the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRPs, priority to crowd in additional private investment.



Eskom is strengthening the ANC-led government’s efforts to attract private sector investment in the delivery of sustainable infrastructure partnerships, SIPs, as part of building broad-based public private partnership. Hon members, it goes without saying that some opposition parties will argue that this procurement of energy from independent power producers, IPPs, is unwarranted because it shows that the ANC- led government responds to many of the concerns expressed by big conglomerates with international links, whereas others would argue that procurement contradicts the strong developmental state the ANC-led government seeks to achieve.



Such arguments are always underpinned by the rigid ideologies positions that ignore practical policy and developmental lessons.



Chairperson, this turn towards green energy is critical from an environmental point of view and this generation capacity is required to meet electricity demand in the country while Eskom will still carry the base load. Be that as it may, this does not mean that the ANC-led government has little choice but merely to implement policy packages that are likely to respond to the demands of our people and not a single sector. Hon members, for various historical reasons South Africa has built a wide range of organisations that are ingredients of a developmental state. The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition is in a position to play the role of the pilot agency, especially if it can closely co-ordinate its activities with the presidency.



There are also serious financial resources and analytical capacities in the Development Bank of Southern Africa and the Industrial Development Corporation. Aside from all this, state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are at the center of the ANC- led government infrastructure building program as most of the government’s mega projects being planned are based on the co-



operation between National department and state-owned enterprises, SOEs. The National Treasury indicates that the rollout of the ANC-led government of R791,2 billion infrastructure development over the fiscal years ending in March 2024, will be driven by state-owned enterprises, SOEs, accounting for 37% of the spending. This is no small contribution.



Chairperson, as regards the geographic sustainable infrastructure partnerships, SIPs, the ANC-led government is committed to the acceleration of investments in roads, rail, bulk water, water treatment and transmission. To be successful the geographic sustainable infrastructure partnerships, SIPs, require competence. Again, the ANC-led government has invested in research and development for successful policy. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, for example, is mandated to foster industrial and scientific developmental strategies, that also the ANC-led government can employ to identify sectors and value chain where South Africa can have the competitive advantage.



The strategy is developed by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, taking into consideration and learning from other countries that are developed but crafted



to address SA challenge and utilise the advantage of local and regional opportunities. The approach of these strategies takes into account that all experiences happen at a particular time and in a particular space whose conditions cannot be exactly replicated in other contexts. Chairperson, one of the strategies developed by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, is improving the supply chain competitiveness of SA small-medium and micro enterprises in high manufacturing industries such as aerospace, automotive and defence to step up exports and capture a growing share of global high value chain manufacturing. Opportunities in the high value chain manufacturing include mining and construction equipment, rail transport equipment, clothing, textile, leather and footwear, just to name a few.



The realisation of this strategy will require Transnet and the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd to be fully on board. The transportation of the general freight will require efficient and reliable transport infrastructure, especially in the main arteries that run between Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban. The ANC-led government is currently working closely with the private sector to invest in Transnet structural change so that the entity can complement the high value chain manufacturing industry. To be more specific, baba(Sir), there are



investments earmarked to expand Transnet rails and ports as well as supplement its locomotives. This will enable Transnet to increase its current weak market share with respect to transporting general freight. Furthermore, Chairperson, it will provide Transnet with sophisticated tools to reduce the turnaround time of general freight of over 10 days in comparison to the seven days. It is thought to be most important, mama(mom).



More investments channeled towards Transnet will minimise the


... [Inaudible.] ... port tariffs that are in competitive for automotive and container trades. Chairperson, SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, is also maintaining and investing in the expansion of roads, I am telling you, hon Smit and hon Mokause, this is what the ANC-led government does. On the whole, SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, has been quite successful as testified to by the recent investment of the R485 million and a special maintenance - don’t worry about that - projects of R56 road which will take place from Indwe to Elliot and from Elliot to Maclear. In 2022 ... [Inaudible.]

... to the Eastern Cape such as infrastructural projects together with others that are in the pipeline are testament to the ANC-led government commitment to infrastructure



development that is in the lifeline of economy ... [Time expired.] ... I thank you so much, mama(mom) Chairperson.





Mnu T APLENI: Sihlalo weNdlu, masibulise ngakumbi kohloniphekileyo uMbhexeshi oyiNtloko kwi-EFF uNks M O Mokause






... the incoming government of South Africa.





Simamele phaya kuMama kwaye ndiyabona ukuba kuseza kubanzima ebantwini baseMzantsi Afrika nolutsha lweli lizwe.





State-owned enterprises, SOEs, are an important feature of the political economy of South Africa and important part of our economic landscape. They play a significant role in the economy and are regarded as the vehicles of the national development strategies. As commercially run SOEs under government ownership, SOEs are directly and indirectly tasked with undertaking both commercial and non-commercial activities on government’s behalf.



They have, by design, been established to economic development where the state assumes its role in the development of infrastructure which is often seen as an instrument to develop infrastructure. SOEs serve the purpose of promoting national economic and strategic interests. They are engines of economic survival.



However, in South Africa under the leadership of the ruling party state-owned enterprises have experienced a number of challenges which have brought these challenges to their knees. South African SOEs are inefficient, operate at a loss and fail to provide critical public goods and services due to various mismanagement and corruption. Chairperson, most of the challenges are as a result of leadership failures as almost all of South Africa’s key state companies currently exist in a state characterized by growing debts, dysfunctional management, no consequent management with incorrect classification of procurement as emergencies failure to address audit findings and failure to deliver the mandate.



SOEs’ financial and management crisis have deepened through the wound without a critical and implementable plan to rescue them. We witnessed this with the collapse of the SA Airways, SAA and the same is being done to Eskom, Denel and Transnet.



Buyers are lining up to pick South Africa’s assets at a fraction of the price as compared to their developmental mandate.



Denel, South Africa’s arm manufacturing company has witnessed a financial loss of R2 billion for the year 2019/2020 financial year which was mainly driven by the failure in leadership. SA Airways has fared worse as the company has not submitted any financial statements in the past four financial years. Yet, year after year, SAA has been put under business rescue with no indication of when it will ever recover.



The SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC is not different as it has never had a clean audit in years. Yet, year after year, it too, is embroiled in a never ending cases of incompetency, maladministration and corruption which has resulted in an operating loss of R500 million for the 2019/2020 financial year. Transnet is another of these SOEs which has challenges with procurement and contract management.



SOEs also fall short on information disclosure especially in sectors where corruption practises are more frequently observed such as natural resources with many often finding ways to conceal and hide important transformation such as



types and amount of financial assistance as well as material transactions with the state.



What is evident from these examples provided above is that, good and effective governance is lacking. This points to a problem of political incompetency on the part of the ruling elite who show no signs of being concerned about the running of the country and growing its of its economy. The fixing of the buildings of the SOEs is therefore necessary so as to instil confidence and restore trust in these institutions.



The SOEs are failing due to the ruling party’ cadre development which ultimately contributes to their poor financial performance. The EFF has, throughout its years of formation, placed the economic development of SOEs and its entities at the centre of all our policies. The EFF has also been clear on its stance about ownership, control and redistribution of the economy for the benefit of all and most specifically of the financial sector.



It is important to note that policies designed to improve corporation governance and oversight of SOEs are implemented so as to reduce corruption. However, this means nothing when there is a lack of political will to tackles corruption.



Without strong political leadership to implement laws and regulations, we run a risk of having tools and measures which exist only on paper.



What is required is strengthening SOEs legally and regulatory frameworks and practices so as to prevent corruption to introduce transparency and accountability at all levels and put ethics at the centre of business decision making. As stipulated in our manifesto, the EFF sticks to nationalise banks and discontinue private ownership. We seek to create a state-owned bank which shall provide affordable loans to our people. We seek to pass special appropriation Bill to right off debts in state-owned companies and convert the Public Investment Corporation into equities.



With the development of the South Africa’s economy guided under the guidance of a capable state for state-owned enterprises and key sectors of the economy such as the land, banks and mines stand at the centre at how the EFF seeks to stimulate the economy and encourage development and growth. Thank you very much, House Chair.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chair, as we all know, the role of state-owned enterprises, SOEs, is crucial in the delivery of



essential services and developing new industries and infrastructure, to ensure economic growth and development. However, this is far from the case in South Africa. Instead of having well-managed, efficient and profitable SOEs that deliver on their mandates, we in South Africa, in most cases, have SOEs that have deteriorated into a bottomless pit of financial failure and corruption, under the poor governance of the ANC at the cost of South Africans.





Dit was egter nie altyd die geval nie. Ondernemings in staatsbesit het in die verlede goed gefunksioneer en as ons byvoorbeeld na Eskom kyk, was infrasruktuur in die belang van die publiek uitgebrei en krag teen bekostigbare tariewe aan tot 60% van Afrika voorsien, terwyl Eskom steeds winsgewend was, duisende werksgeleenthede geskep was en ’n positiewe bedrae tot die ekonomie gelewer was. So was dit ook die geval met SAA, Transnet, Denel en vele meer.





Unfortunately, SOEs in South Africa today are nothing more than a financial and fiscal burden and a tool for corrupt politicians and officials to line their pockets, without any consequence or being prosecuted, as we have seen time and time



again in the past and then again, at the cost of South Africans.



SOEs should not be seen as part of the public sector where it serves as a private piggy bank for the corrupt, but should rather be run on a strict business model that is transparent and open for public participation and a strict evaluation of staff and performance to ensure the maximum return on capital investments. And Parliament should also play a larger oversight role over SOEs to ensure accountability and regular lifestyle and ethics audits should be implemented to root out corruption, in order to restore SOEs to their former glory.



Turning the ship around for SOEs to play a key role in service delivery and development, while still be profitable is not rocket science. It was the case not so long ago. So, learn from the past and invest in skills development and training, hire staff on merit, do away with affirmative action and stop looting, corruption and cadre employment.



Only then will there be a realistic chance for SOEs to once again be the catalyst for growth and development. The debate today should not be about on positioning SOES as the main catalyst for growth and development; it should rather be



returning SOEs as the main catalyst for growth and development to before the ANC destroyed it. Thank you.



Mr D R RYDER: As my esteemed colleague, hon Nhanha, pointed out, if we are only now considering how to position the nearly 700 SOE’s as catalysts for growth and development, what on earth have we been doing for the past 27 years? Surely the raison d’etre of each of these SOEs must have been growth and development. Otherwise, what’s the point?



Just look at Armscor and Denel, once the manufacturers of the finest military equipment in the world, now begging for survival because all of their intellectual capital has been stolen and leaked for the personal enrichment of the cadres deployed there. Of the goose that laid the explosive golden egg, only a bare carcass remains.



The allegedly hon Mokause in introducing the topic diverted entirely from the very topic she introduced and chose instead to launch an attack, as is the EFFs wont, she chose to break down rather than provide effective inputs on growth and development.



She chose to misdirect the facts at Eskom. Eskom is indeed intended to be at the heart of driving growth and development through the creation of supply capacity to power industries, commerce and residential opportunities, it was instead declared as the number one state capture project by Minister Gordhan when he was joining the dots.



Now, as Mr De Ruyter takes on the daunting task of reviving this corpse, he claims that state capture remains alive and well at Eskom. No surprises there for anyone who has been watching Minister Mantashe’s reluctance to open up to private power producers juxtaposed with his desperation to sign long term supply contracts with Karpowership.



The hon Minister Gordhan in his speech spoke extensively about the bill of rights. Let us talk about load reduction from Eskom, as implemented by them, is the turning off of large areas of electrical supply, purportedly in areas of high demand and low payment rates, during the hours of peak demand, in order to reduce the load on Eskom’s overburdened generation capacity. This is a stark admission by Eskom that they are unable to meet demand, that they have not implemented appropriate credit control measures, and that they have not



secured their distribution network and do not maintain the scant security measures in place.



Mr Minister, in terms of the Bill of Rights, paragraph 33 of the Constitution of South Africa, we have the right to administrative actions that are lawful, reasonable and procedurally fair. The blanket actions by Eskom, turning off paying customers together with nonpaying users is patently unfair and therefore unconstitutional in that Bill of Rights that you have referred to.



The inability of Eskom to apply appropriate steps to secure their networks and perform appropriate credit controls measures should not result in unfair blanket cutoffs and the withdrawal of services. How is this desperate act driving growth and development? This is a microcosm of the broader state of SOEs. Poor policy and poor implementation stealing opportunities for growth and development.



As a contrast the hon Smit eloquently stated the missed opportunities in rail and roads, and the opportunities offered by the Green energy developments and the data revolution.

Those are opportunities missed again. Those opportunities are there. All we need to do is to manage them.



Hon Matibe spoke about a complex relationship between SOEs and growth. It’s not that complex. Create the environment by doing your job, and the market will fill any space where it is welcomed.



And hon Bebee then spoke about the potential of Metro Rail. Admirable intentions, but as we stand the theft of cables and track has crippled the rail network. There is no control, no plan. There is no political will. Mama, you told us what an ANC government will do. You didn’t say what you have done and why you haven’t done any of it yet.



In spite of all these state failures, Mr Apleni still thinks the state should take on more by nationalising the banks. Come on!



In conclusion, the ANC has failed to leverage off the wonderful potential that existed in the post-apartheid South Africa and has stripped the carcasses clean through years of mismanagement and theft. Honestly the only reasonable conclusion to this debate is that it is time for the ANC to step aside and make way for a government that can actually create an environment conducive to growth and development.

Deregulate, decentralise, just like we have done in Midvaal,



Cape Town, and throughout the Western Cape. Stand aside for a government that gets things done, a government that is led by the Democratic Alliance. I thank you.



Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon House Chairperson, Chief Whip Mr Mohai, MECs, hon members, special delegates, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, yesterday my daughter sent me a WhatsApp message, thought of the day, I thought it would be relevant to share it with you:



As seed grows with no sound, but a tree falls with a huge noise. Destruction has noise, but creation is quiet. This is the power of silence. Grow silently.



As a soccer player, a soccer fanatic, let me start by commending hon Mokause for bringing an important debate. This is an important subject. But as advice to the hon members, as a soccer player, we don't play the man we must play the ball, leave the man and play the ball, then we'll be fine. The ANC, for all the years, seeks to reverse the effects of the historical injustice of an apartheid colonial past which expresses itself in a democratic South Africa like poverty, inequality and unemployment. Market fundamentalism will not provide economic growth, as our experience has shown.



It is a fact that the stubborn triple challenges of inequality poverty, unemployment have not been rescinded. The result is that all parties have been sent into a frenzy in an effort to find or offer solutions. Whereas some of the suggested solutions are kneejerk, others representing two polarising and divisive paradigms, are a recipe for disaster. The thinking and the articulation of the party to the right of the pendulum agitate for maintaining the status quo with a tinge of exponential growth. They are suggesting a skin plaster solution where the rich on the one hand, and the poor, on the other, will be developed proportionally to their past.



Levelling the playing field is the furthest thing from their warped thinking. For them, it is acceptable for a poor man or a woman owning a one-bedroom house to then qualify for an upgrade to a two-roomed house. A rich man owning a mansion would then qualify for an upgrade that involves large hectares of land too, this is nothing short of political epilepsy. They are market fundamentalists, who pander to the whims of the investors, most of whom are big international conglomerates.



The riders on the left side of the pendulum are something else, call them state fundamentalist, if you wish, they are comfortable in the idea of imposing a state as the custodian



of everything that exists under the African sun. No wonder this debate has been sponsored to advance the narrative that SOEs could be used as a universal remedy against poverty, inequality, and unemployment. Nothing can be further from the truth.



SOEs cannot be used as the panacea for the challenges that currently confront our country, whereas they have rubbed off contributions that they could make to the development and stability of the state. Not all SOEs are expected to churn out profits. There are those, of course, that need and can make a profit and contribution to the fiscus. But others are just meant to break even in pursuit of developmental goals. Without getting lost in the cacophony of noises coming from the extreme ends of the pendulum, let me suggest a third way which is reconciliatory and forward-thinking and this is the way of the ruling party, the ANC. Good news, hon Mokause, we have won eThekwini. [Applause.]



It is an option that seeks to rescue South Africa from being a winner takes all jamboree. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members!



Mr A J NYAMBI: An option that gives expression to the Freedom Charter as it seeks to present our country as belonging to everyone who lives in it, black and white. Not just living in it, but in perfect harmony with equal opportunities, as our forbear, the late President Mandela once said.



I am talking here about the ANC’s plan for a balanced and inclusive economic growth and development which places people at the centre of development as opposed to state and market fundamentalism, all of which are not sustainable. The year off the tangent, is so far as aligning to the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development and Growth about with the UN General Secretary, Ban Ki-Moon said the following:



The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. It's a universal, integrated and transformative plan of action for peace and prosperity for all on a healthy planet.



To further unpack this, let me say that our view is that we need to continue creating space for SOEs to thrive as we deal with attended challenges such as the mandate and capacity of boards, as well as those of the executive authorities responsible for the day to day running of state-owned entities.



One way of doing so it's partnering with the private sector to tap into their rich tapestry of experience and expertise. That is why we are supportive of the drive, for instance, of sourcing an equity partner for SA Airways, SAA, in order to ensure that the flagship airline continues to stay afloat and is able to provide much-needed jobs in this sector. We are the first to admit that the airline has been burning a lot of much-needed cash, with the multiple bailouts that it caught from the government. But we disagree with the right-wing sentiments that it needs to be completely sold off or privatised.



There is still a strong case for the national carrier and the SAA still holds the promise of a thriving entity once all the i's get dotted and the T's crossed. We're also alive to the reality of how SAA and other entities such as Eskom got where they are today. We are the first to agree that corruption and state capture have been at the centre of the demise of our glorious state-owned entities, but we are not despondent.



We are on course to revitalising Eskom through rationalising into three components of generation, transmission and distribution. We are of the view that it is easier to manage



smaller components of a whole than to attempt swallowing the entire elephant at a go.



Let me hasten to indicate that this does not amount to privatisation and neither does it equate to crowding out competitors into the space. There is room for Independent Power Producers, IPPs, to participate in the energy space and yet such IPPs cannot be entrusted with supplying more than 30% of the country’s required energy. Eskom still needs to supply the baseload and these we shall not compromise on.



To demonstrate our keenness to promote inclusivity, we have, through the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, increased the threshold which seeks IPPs could produce 200 megawatts per hour. This is a milestone considering that the sector only started growing to an industrial proportion in the past four years.



We acknowledged that more than any other time in the history of our country, we need to develop a capable and ethical state, which is the sure-fire procedure to economic growth and development. The antithesis is wanton corruption and looting of state assets that we can ill afford.



We have analysed the past, and we know exactly what needs to be done. The anticipated report of the State Capture Commission can only help to sharpen our approach towards a future that prioritises consequence management and set out conditions for delivery that can be concomitant to the size of the capital injection made to the state entities.



Honestly, I can make an investment of R100 and be told that I can make a profit because of the size of my investment. I may be oversimplifying the issue but the bottom line is that investment needs to yield returns, irrespective of the amount invested, hon Mokause. It is also important that we escalate the fight against the culture of nonpayment for services rendered. We are noting with concern the clogging of ports of entry such as Beit Bridge in Limpopo and Lebombo in Mpumalanga as freight trucks extend pressure on our roads as correctly articulated by hon mama [hon Bebee]. We are proponents and drivers of the Economic Recovery and Reconstruction Plan and we still await a better alternative from the opposition. This we do in order to stimulate our economy that has stagnated in the forgoing decades.



The ANC has a clear, holistic view of economic growth, development and economic recovery. Politics is loved by many



but understood by few. That day we learn to understand the difference between politicking and politics, we will fully understand half of the things in our social space. Context is everything. And out of context is anything. Hon Mokause, as I acknowledge you for raising an important debate, probably it is important when we started, to understand ... [Interjections.]



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson! Chairperson! House Chair! House Chair!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Where are you?



Ms B T MATHEVULA: In the virtual platform, Chair. Chair! Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I can’t see you, hon





Ms B T MATHEVULA: I’m on the virtual platform, Chair. Chair, on a point of order, I just wanted to know whether the hon member there, is debating about the hon Mokause. Thank you, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): That is not a point of order hon member. Can you continue, hon member House Chair, can you continue.



Mr A J NYAMBI: As I acknowledge the important debate that has been raised. The debate today has been sponsored, hon Mathevula, by hon Mokause, and I’ve commended her for that.

And that is why I even gave brotherly advice that let's play the ball not the man. And when we started today, I am reminded that those that understand the difference between wisdom and intelligence, an intelligent person will claim to know everything. But the one that has wisdom will always understand that there will always be room to learn every day. But when we started, it was clear, under the leadership of the Chief Whip and how you chaired the session where when it nearly degenerated to something else out of an important session.



Maturity is when you manage to handle those who are manhandling you without losing your sense of peace and leadership. And I saw that today. In taking our country forward and every day having such debates that will always assist us, we must not lose sight. That is why every time when you get an opportunity to be on this podium, we will always remind people that I still have to see dogs barking at a car



that is standstill. It must be in motion to be chased by dogs. It means it's moving.





Kukhonkothwa ehambayo. Emile iyachanyelwa.





I thank you. [Applause.]



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, the reality is that South Africans are tired of the dreams that have been sold to them. They demonstrated that on 1 March where the elephant is falling, and on 1 November, during the local government elections. [Interjections.]



It doesn’t matter; you know what I am talking about.



I am talking about that date when all of us went and voted and the people of South Africa rejected you. You lost the economic hub – Johannesburg – you lost Ekurhuleni.



And you are continuing to lose, yet you come to this House and become adamant that you do not have a gangsters’ paradise in the ANC, and you don’t have corrupt officials running SOEs and



running government into the ground. You come here and claim that you are still clean. [Interjections.]



You might have won today, but the reality is that you must know that you came through the back door. [Interjections.]



In closing, it is evident that state-owned enterprises contribute positively to growth in countries with good governance and institutions, while their presence impairs the economies of environments in which institutional quality is low. Therefore, there are two sides of the debate around how to develop an economy.



On the one side of the argument lies the belief that privatisation of state-controlled assets and market-orientated developmental strategies must form the direction that South Africa ought to take in order to ensure job creation, stabilise state-owned enterprise and grow the economy.



Today, in this Council, we have heard how privatisation is justified based on the belief that only private ownership can guarantee high efficiency. However, the truth of the matter is that privatisation is a recipe for failure, a truth that the ANC today still does not believe.



We have already witnessed this in the process of auctioning of the shares in state-owned enterprises which has already begun. It is already characterised by corruption and over-pricing.

This means that there has already been a failure to regulate the manipulation of state power in privileged entities in the bidding or auctioning process.



South Africa also currently loses billions of rands through tax evasion, profit shifting and base erosion by the very private sector some seek to entrust with the economic development of our country.



Currently, SOEs are falling short in most respects such as information disclosure, especially in those sectors in which corrupt practices are more frequently observed, such as with natural resources.



What has been made clear today is that corruption is detrimental to SOEs themselves, to the economy, and to the people who depend on those SOEs for basic services. Corruption damages investor confidence, deters foreign investment and leads to unsustainable debt and a plunge in stock market value. This negatively impacts growth and increases inequality.



Today, in this very Council, we heard several economic arguments promoting state-owned ownership. The arguments are that companies foster economic growth and serve the economic needs of the majority of our population. State-owned enterprises address market failures by providing public goods and funding for key infrastructure projects. They also support vulnerable social groups by providing employment in key industries. Moreover, SOEs enhance the access to public utilities at affordable prices. They also support national security by limiting private and foreign ownership in sectors of particular national interest such as the arms and network industries.



Under competent leadership – not under this government that is failing – state-owned enterprises such as Denel, Eskom, SABC and Transnet could function in an efficient manner with research and technical innovation as the driving forces behind them. State-owned enterprises continue to fail because, under the leadership of Pravin Gordhan and some Ministers in Ramaphosa’s government, there exists an agenda to see SOEs fail.



With the EFF here in this Council, in the National Assembly, and in councils, we are not going to allow that. I thank you



for the opportunity. We also say, say thank you to the EFF for enlightening you today as the ruling party as to what needs to happen in South Africa in terms of economic growth. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, I wish to thank the Minister, MECs, the Chief Whip, the Deputy Chief Whip, and all special delegates for availing themselves for participation in this debate.



Debate concluded.



The House adjourned at 18:27.