Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 25 Aug 2021


No summary available.



Watch video here: PLENARY (VIRTUAL)





The Council met at 14:01.



The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.









The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to remind you of the following points. The virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.



Delegates in the virtual sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply to the sitting of the National Council of Provinces. For the purposes of the quorum all delegates in



the virtual platform shall be considered to be present in the House.



Delegates must always switch on their videos. Delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted unless you have permission to speak. That the interpretation function is active. Any delegate wishes to speak must use the raise your hand function.



I have been informed that they will be no notices of a motion and motions without notice.



Before we proceed to the subject of discussion, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister of Police, the Minister of Small Business Development, the Minister of Defence and the Deputy Minister of State Security to the House. We shall now proceed to the subject for discussion as printed on the Order Paper.






Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, members, House Chairpersons, fellow members, and fellow South Africans, the events of July 2021 have generated a plethora of views and opinions, but far less analysis that can be of assistance to Parliament and our country. The national project that faces the nation of peace, stability, rebuilding beyond the public violence, looting and destruction of property.



It is indeed a deep philosophical moment for the ANC, the nation and all progressive and democratic South Africans. It brings us to confront objective socio-economic realities that have stopped us long before 1994. A critical assessment of the environment, in all its dimensions, historical, economical, political, social, culturally, is necessary, if we were to respond comprehensively to what has happened. Not just our immediate response. We require the response that builds for the future as the theme of this debate informs us.



At the outset of this debate the ANC wishes to convey its condolences to the families who have lost members during the July unrests, characterised by violence, looting and destructions of property. Three hundred and sixty people lost their lives during the period of unrest. The most severe



unrest in parts of our since the ushering in of democracy South Africa in 1994. It was aimed at disrupting the heart of South Africa’s economy.



Few analyses have been written on the root causes or essence of why the unrest occurred and what it boasts for the future of the country. Democracy and the leadership of the country in attempting to construct a democratic society most hinges around personalities. While many seek to try and analyse the phenomena that we can all see is this coherent and cogent analysis as to what happened, and in whose interest it took place.



The unrest brought to the fore many political, social and economic issues, which have affected our country for many years both pre and post democracy. These critical issues need to be identified and systematically be addressed. The validity of some of the arguments underpinning the different attempts to analyse what has happened should be addressed. In the absence of analysis narratives that are generated and Parliament needs to be conscience that its recommendations are not influenced or respond to services. The point of oversight visits was to establish facts and harvest evidence on this matter. Then draw on analysis which will be instructive of



what we should be doing going forward. This is what has to inform the NCOP going forward.



Narratives are driven and Parliament must rather shape the narrative and not become hostage to the narrative. Narratives are often driven by economic elites and other elites to society. Those who have access to platforms and release statements, the masses who are poor don’t get on to these platforms. Our narrative must be the character of the national democratic society that is under construction.



Our narrative must be the mobilisation of our people to build that capacity and capability in being able to liberate themselves from those things that hold them back. Our narrative must be the role of our people in nation building and social cohesion. In building a more inclusive economy that distributes wealth on a far more equitable basis.



The ministerial briefing session yesterday in the NCOP should be built upon as an outcome of this debate. Specific programmes in provinces spoke to important work being done on job creation, changes to regulatory environment and the introduction of provincial legislation. To build township economies, this together with our focus provincial weeks, we



are focused on solutions and practical interventions not lamenting about what is wrong but where we have completed the problem statement and have introduced programmes which addressed the problem statement. This must be our area and focus of attention.



Future NCOP oversights visits must be more specifically, dedicated to those matters that have direct impact upon unemployment, poverty and inequality. This takes us back to the role of the NCOP not an abstract theoretical concept but practicality on how we express solidarity and provide support for the provinces and local government and South African Local Government Association, SALGA, as we address the needs of our people as the primary responsibility and duty that we have.



The impact of recent events should not only find us asking question, who is responsible or others who seek to define – what is the correct description of what has happened. Rather, what are the environmental factors that have contributed to the situation. Uncomfortable questions would arise in such an approach. The problematising and analysis as the relation between property, inequality, poverty, unemployment, politics and policies would arise.



Researchers both locally and globally have over the years in articles spoken of an eruption that was going to happen given the levels of poverty and equality that we have in this country. The lawlessness and corruption that we have been witnessing for some time became a defining moment in our democracy. The character of South African inequality ranked for the last decade at least as the most unequal country on earth and makes it fertile ground for this act.



Further, the debate for the opposition will be about attacking the ANC and this is nothing new. But really, do we find quality and substance that provides a national and logical basis for moving the country forward from the opposition. The ANC through its organisational renewal project has taken on bringing greater responsibilities to clarifying the role, responsibilities, obligations of members of a governing party. In building a more cohesive society, fighting corruption, which is often generated from the private sector in their attempt to emasculate the state leading to the overall push for greater privatisation of public services and goods.



No other party is doing this. Rather, other parties when they face challenges their blinds go down and behind closed doors. They attempt to deal with the consolidation of one faction



over another. The ANC by contrast opens itself and publicly engages society in what is going to change things for the better.



Unity for the ANC must also be based on discipline and accountability. Organisational renewal is a function translated into practice which builds and serves the people and not merely a theoretical concept of what unity means.

Organisational renewal must lead to the rebuilding of society on the basis of adherence to the values and ethos of our Constitution and meeting the needs of our people.



The one cluster that has come under great criticism during this period is the peace and stability cluster. However, if you had to track our discussions in Parliament, since 2014, the ANC caucus has been raising the fact that the budget for defence in particular and pulling this more broadly, was not commensurate with their constitutionally responsibilities.



The current conjuncture has exposed that Parliament has been raising in terms of the reprioritisation of the peace and stability cluster. The 36,1 billion allocated to respond to the current conjuncture, to the peace and stability cluster, has addressed special deployments. It is equally true that



within the same cluster we have through oversight experienced two features: firstly, the inability to spend an allocated budget and secondly, the quality to spend. These are critical questions that need Parliament to demand improvement otherwise we will lock ourselves in a ... [Inaudible.] ... reprioritisation.



Successful countries whose economies are strong have relied on a strong and well-resourced police and military structure. We need to learn from this lesson. The role of the intelligence report is clearly to pre-empt a situation that may arise and that could be a danger to the state and its citizens. The role of intelligence or the lack thereof, has been the major feature in the aftermath of the unrest. No doubt, we shall hear in this debate different narratives on the intelligence services. The wiser option is to acknowledge the informed findings by the two enquires that Parliament will be seized with going forward. One on police and one on intelligence.

These reports once tabled will provide Parliament with the facts and evidence to then enable it to respond.



The July scenario allows for a frank debate on what our Constitution premised. A constitutional democracy and respect for the rule of law. As the ANC we have condemned the acts of



looting, theft, vandalism, lawlessness and thuggery. These are the antithesis of our Constitution stands for. But, beyond this, we reinstate the nature and character of the democratic Society that we want to construct.



Chairperson, no democracy can exist with anarchy and lawlessness. If this is the case, economic development will be weakened. The character of national democratic society that we are seeking to construct affirms the commitment of the ANC to the strategic objective of building a non-racial, non-sexist, united and democratic society. One in which we build and inclusive economy, in order to deal with the inequality which, we have affirmed particularly and democracy of our people in shaping the response to their needs. In dealing with this poverty, we need to look at the structure, - the Gini coefficient is the worst in the world and we need to deal with that matter and resolve it.



The unresolved national question which has been embedded in the curriculum of our basic education system has ... [Inaudible] ... from 1652. It thrives on any opportunistic moment and where our communities are brought together by common consciousness and to higher theoretical level. The issues raise the matter of social cohesion. If this is to



be a comprehensively built, economic participation in the economy has to take place.



Social cohesion is not an abstract concept but a product of working together, where the common destiny and whilst many narrow down the national question to race or ethnicity, our challenge is forging a common destiny in answering the national question in our choice to live together.



The ANC is about the people of working to achieve the goal of improving the quality of life of people, especially the poor and vulnerable to advance the country and its interest. It is about building the values of a non-racial society, ensuring gender equality, protecting human rights, promoting reconciliation and conflict resolution, social justice as well as a better South Africa, a better Africa and a better world.



We must acknowledge that the masses of our people came out in defence of access to resources, in defence of their jobs, in defence of protecting resources upon which the masses of our people rely. What this tells us is that the overwhelming majority of South Africans want to live in peace and to see the quality of their lives improving.



What this debate must equally acknowledge is the responses of the masses of our communities who rally together across racial lines helping to protect, clean and rebuild projecting their neighbourhoods jobs and clean up and contributing to the rebuilding of the economy.



The parliamentary caucus has responded to the establishment of a Joint Command Task Team to co-ordinate the matter of social cohesion. The ANC is about people working together and it is about improving the lives of the people – not only in Parliament, but in their localities and where they live. The ANC in the 2019 NEC Lekgotla resolved that “the state capability is critical to address the concrete conditions that we are in and this requires the lifting of the capability of the state to address the demands of the Medium Term Strategic Framework and the National Development Plan.



It was precisely this matter of capability in July 2021, that found the state in responding to instability wanting. In such a scenario, the role of the private security companies emerges and how they conduct themselves in the manner that shows us quite clearly and evidence of illegality. Again, Parliament needs to play its part in the



need to review of private security industry. We have over the years had to listen to the maladministration in this industry and the poor regulating of the regulatory environment. In such situation, individuals will rise and use private security sector for other ends, as we have seen in the July unrest. Enforcement of the law is also a responsibility of society but it has to be conducted within the parameters of the law. Strengthening the rule of law and strengthening constitutional democracy are the obligations of all South Africans especially those in leadership. Therefore, the responsibility of leadership and parliamentarians to the adherence of the rule of law is common cause. Leadership expect society to adhere and therefore, leadership must lead. The absence of which will lead to chaos and reaction.



Chairperson, unemployment, inequality, poverty will remain a threat to our stability. The Stats SA figures employment announced yesterday using the expanded definition reflects well over 40% unemployment in our country, the highest since 2008. This requires our collective response to support the programmes that Parliament has agreed to, that finance, employment, provides skills and learnerships.

Those who can accuse us of not providing leadership need to



become involved, all of us are in the ship together. If we keep holding to the ship it will sink with all of us.



Our appeal is for a united South Africa, a united Parliament, a united civil society and that we need to create a product. We are the product of the society in mould and fashion. Where are the weaknesses? We do not hold people to account, people themselves beginning to lead and bringing themselves as other alternative. Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, colleagues, Ministers and the Deputy Ministers who are here. We shouldn’t forget that ...





Inyanga yembokodo le, igama lamakhosikazi malibongwe. [Ubuwelewele.]








Chairperson, allow me to greet this august House this afternoon in remembrance of the 359 people who died during the



terrible scenes of violence and unrest that engulfed the provinces of Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal last month. Again, I convey greetings from the security cluster in remembrance of multiples of workers and business owners who can no longer commute to work because their places of employment and businesses were burnt down during the devastating looting and malicious damage of these properties. Our heartfelt greetings also go to the orphans, widows and parents who buried their children during the failed insurrection that was aimed at undermining the authority of the state and injured more people. Last but not least, our greetings are extended to the law enforcement agencies who continued to serve and try their best to protect the citizens of this country against the worst attacks and sometimes volatile situation in the history of our democracy. To them we say that they should continue to honour your constitutional obligations and hold the South African flag in high esteem and work together with all South Africans.



Hon members, it has been six weeks since the civil unrests and acts of violence that dislodged the economic, social and political landscape in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng provinces respectively. In this regard, the July unrest resulted in extensive damage to almost 161 malls, 11 warehouses, 8 factories, 161 liquor outlets or distributors. Over



200 shopping centres were looted and damaged while 100 malls suffered fire damage. Looting also took place in about

300 shops in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, damaging a lot of ATMs


– about 1 400 of them. The wanton destruction resulted in 300 banks and post offices branches being vandalised; 113 communication infrastructure were also significantly damages, and 1 119 retail stores were impacted and damaged as well.



To date, a total of 16 instigators have been identified and arrested and they are going through the court processes. Out of all these, there was community participation. This debate comes at a time where joint efforts and partnership of buildings are at an advanced stage between government and the affected communities. Such efforts must be encouraged and supported by all of us regardless of our political affiliations. This we must do in the spirit of Ubuntu and political maturity where we limit politics and contribute to nation-building and social cohesion.



While police continue to nourish and deeply value community partnerships, equally as government, we commit to build from this willingness from our people to bring stability and we will work with them to prevent the reoccurrence of this July mayhem. I would like to pause here and take a moment to show



appreciation to the communities that have, within the ambit of the law, assisted police in maintaining the rule of law, amid the violence and chaos. These brave men and women worked together and in some cases assisted police together with the private security industry to safeguard infrastructure and keep their neighbourhoods safe and working within the law.



I have personally visited areas around Gauteng and in KwaZulu- Natal where malls and other retail shopping centres were barely touched because of this collaborative work of the communities and security enforcement structures. It is also at these areas and many more in some sections in other provinces, where police and the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, maintained a strong presence around retail centres and other infrastructures. These initiatives also saw some community members and private security serve as force multipliers.



Meanwhile, it is encouraging that His Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, has since appointed an expert panel to lead a thorough and critical review of our preparedness as a security cluster and the shortcomings in our response to the unrest.

This panel will be led by Professor Sandy Africa as chairperson and will examine all aspects of our security response and will make recommendations on strengthening our



capabilities with the hope that next time there will be a better response.



Extraordinary times calls for extraordinary measures, and to this end, the SA Police Service, SAPS, had to implement certain operational approaches to mitigate the shortcoming experience, including a two-shift system in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng in order to maximise deployments. This was later extended to other provinces. Routine crime prevention, crime combating and crime investigation operations were disrupted in stations located in affected areas as a result of the extraordinary deployment of members.



All hands were on board and the SAPS members within the national support capabilities were also deployed, but frontline service delivery from all police stations including affected areas remain intact. Seven provinces were required to provide public order policing capability to support the two affected provinces. There was a lot of movement from other provinces to support and response to what was happening.



Key security deployment are also instituted following the first attacks. Police are deployed to major transport routes such as N1, N2 and N3 in KwaZulu-Natal hotspots, truck stops,



depots, roadblocks vehicle checkpoints as we are preparing for a better response should anything happen in future. National key points were also safeguarded, including petrol and chemical industries, electricity and water sources.



Police were also stationed to guard the country’s communication and banking sector as well the pharmaceutical sector. Safeguarding of air transport, the airport’s chemical, fuel and oxygen industries as well as government complexes and research centres also ensued. Law enforcement agencies also had to compile a plan to protect the judiciary, executive and the courts. In this regard, specified courts were safeguarded, including some members of the judiciary and the executive, and identified political office bearers and soft communities that were attacked around some other communities.



Investigations into inquest, murder and attempted murder cases are continuing. Police are also probing cases of business burglary and robbery, malicious damage to property, possession of dangerous weapons as well as possession of suspected stolen property, public violence and arson. The Department of Justice and Correctional Services, the National Prosecuting Authority and the SAPS meet twice a week to deal with cases registered as a result of the July public violence and looting.



The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, is prioritising all cases involving members of the SAPS during the July violence. In this regard, the Ipid has received a total of 74 KwaZulu-Natal complaints and 13 in Gauteng province. Unfortunately, the situation turned bad in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. The team comprising of the detectives from national and provincial office was deployed in KwaZulu-Natal to look into the death of 36 people that were killed around the area. This team has hit the ground running looking at the criminality and unfortunately the issue that took a racial posture and these arrests have been widely welcomed by the communities of Zwelisha, Bhambhayi and uMaoti where most of the victims reside.



I must also say that the community of Phoenix have put a lot of effort in support of this team, hence 42 people have been arrested in connection with these crimes. This team is also investigating the role of police in the violence and looking closely into the role also played by the security companies that went beyond defence by committing crime instead of defending the people.



The Peace Committee was also established to rebuild the broken community relations between residents of these four areas,



that is Bhambhayi, Phoenix, Zwelisha and uMaoti. The aim is to bring about peace and stability through working with these residents and police. And one must say that this forum has worked eagerly and facilitated the reporting of cases of missing persons. They have worked with the community to improve the situation which has been much improved.



Amid a global pandemic and budgets cuts, the SAPS endeavours to meet its constitutional mandate. The SAPS is bleeding members through natural attrition and the COVID-19 virus has resulted in the inability of the police service to take in new police recruits in 2020. I must explain that last year we were supposed to have 7 000 new entrants recruits which did not happen because of COVID-19, and this year it would not happen

- which means we have a deficit of about 14 000 members that did not enter the service. Unfortunately, as I am talking, more members are taking early retirement and leaving the service. We are trying to work on that recruitment issue, going forward.



In responding adequately to the ongoing efforts of technological advancement aimed at improving policing, allow me to reflect briefly that the establishment of division technology management service in the police in 2010 was



primarily informed by the realisation of the importance of introducing adequate technological innovations to policing. We are working hard to improve the operation responses which include Public Order Policing, POP, and Visible Policing and it is not limited to boots on the ground.



However, there is a growing need to bring on board force multipliers through resources, equipment and modern technology. The introduction of petition and digital evidence management will assist Public Order Policing in enhancing its communication capabilities through restoration and retrieval of evidence for investigation purposes. To date, procurement of drones and body cameras in the POP environment will be prioritised for each unit to record videos and images during crowd management gatherings.



This will assist in identifying individuals carrying dangerous weapons and at the same time assist police investigation into those who participated in public violence and malicious damage of property. As the same time, the SAPS continues to capacitate the 47 provincial POP units as well as reserve units located in Durban, Cape Town, Mbombela and in capital cities. The ongoing strengthening of this POP unit will mean that there are always at hand to manage community protests



including the training and equipping of members to deal with crowd management without loss of life.



The need to clean up and bolster Crime Intelligence has never been more important and more urgent. Crime Intelligence has been eroded and hollowed out over the years. However, we have put the method and steps to make sure its capacity is improved and it can be better than the previous years when it was not yet eroded. However, there is a certainty in commitment from the administration to ensure the management of information within the SAPS in ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s move towards closure, Minister.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes. As the security cluster we reaffirm our service delivery agreement of ensuring that the people of South Africa would be safe and would be working with all communities.



In closing, allow me to reiterate and reflect to the statement made by His Excellency, the President, and I quote:



We call on communities across the country to work with the police through community police forums. No person should take the law into their own hands. We must guard against vigilantism and anything could inflame tensions further. We call on all South Africans to encourage calm and restrain, to desist from sharing false information, and to report any incidents of violence to the police immediately.



I thank you very much, Chairperson.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, my apologies. Can you hear me now?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, let’s proceed.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, South Africans are trying to make sense of the seven-days of anarchy and government in action that changed South Africa in July 2021. In the six weeks that were lapsed since the worst violence in our nation since 1980s academics and theoretical commentators are like you scratched their heads and conclude over the course of law. My colleague, hon Ryder and hon Bara we will look at the



specifics but I would like to look at the wider micro societal reasons for this particular occurrence.



The simple answer hon Chairperson is; we find in physics. Isaac Newton famously postulated that for every action there was an equal and opposite reaction. That equal an opposite reaction was a full taste of things to come.



For almost three decades this government has been long in promises and short on actions but noble ideals of the Freedom that have been betrayed. Instead of a steady progress in reaching the lives of downtown South Africans there has been a rapidly accelerating escalating heading down into the debts of depravity and they have reached at us know this is true.



There is also been an equally serious erosion taking place, the erosion of the social compact through contract the bundle citizens of more countries with stability and respect. This contract is a voluntarily amongst individuals of which society is brought into being and investment at the right to secure mutual protection and well fair or to regulate the relations between its members. This compact start in the home.



It is generally accepted their mothers and now fathers started process of teaching us right from wrong, respect for each other and also for the property of others. These tenants leads to information to regulate free bodies or government in which members of the society place their trust through political participation in those of us act in the best interest of those same members of the society that put the government there in the first place. This arrangement is the foundation of the principle of government by the people for the people.



The entire contract is highly based on the best interest of trust. The second trust is in the leadership of those to lead that society. Their trust is so deeply held that any betrayal or oestrous will continue betrayal will certainly be catastrophic. Betrayals of their trust will over time lead to a sense of abandonment that sense that every person is left with neither option but defend for themselves, the return to the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest.



In short, the complete antithesis of the social compact from mutual interest. This government was elected in 1994 when the hope that it will govern for all and for the mutual benefit for all and specifically in the interest for those who had suffered the social and economic indignity of apartheid.



There can be no doubt that the social compact started well and the magnificent leadership of President Mandela. They continued utmost business Mbeki with unprecedented economic growth in his first term. There cannot however be any doubt that the compact started to erode the accelerated cadre deployment policy in the mid-2000 and the first major scandal of the notorious arms deal.



President Mbeki acted as he should and dismissed one Jacob Zuma after his co-conspirator Schabir Shaik was found guilty of corruption. This was a perpetual moment. South Africans were heartened by the apparent realigns of the rule of law. It was demonstrated that no person was above the law, including a Deputy President. It was attested the government past but one unfortunately the ANC failed dismally. In 2007, with the aid of the ANC Youth League under the leadership of the hon Malema and Shivambu, Mr Zuma was elected the ANC President and the arrest they say was the beginning of a painful history.



Members of this House, my apology, I have lost my place. [Interjections.]. Members of this task can believe in co- exigence as they will. Indeed, the arrest of Mr Zuma cited with the worse period of corruption, state looting and capture



in our short history as has been displayed in details at the Zondo Commission.



The reality is that President Mandela and Mbeki were trying to adhered to the social contract while Mr Zuma underneath his brands and chuckles the songs and dances was actively betraying the compact.



The stands of lawlessness that is ensured since then brings South Africa full circle to the events to July 2021, 359 of our constraints lied dead.



The damage is considerable at the access of R50 billion. These hon members are the equal and opposite reaction I spoke of earlier. This is the result of the betrayal of the social compact. These are members of our society feeling abandoned.

This are members of our society feeling that they have no other option but to protect themselves. This is the people of our country urgent on urgent provocative, looting and burning. This government has betrayed the second truth by not acting decisively against those in their own ranks who betrayed the trust. This government and its current President continues to betray that trust are not acting decisively against those



responsible by commission or omission for the carnage in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.



This government has created an environment not for success but for pure anarchy. The antithesis of the lost ideals of 1994.

There would be consequences, hon Chairperson, sparely with grief and the hate. With any businesses destroyed will not reopen causing economic misery. Voters will remember this betrayal at the ballot box. We should rely be a bit concern about the highest consequences. The social compact hangs by a thread. If we do not act quickly, if we do not work on uniting, rebuilding and protecting this, the incidents of July 2021 will simply for those of artier and complete destructions. I thank you.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Greetings to the Ministers, Deputy Minister and to all delegates of the National Council of Provinces. Hon Chair, we are in the month of August during which we mark the heroic acts by the women of our country who for many years waged a struggle for women’s emancipation as part of the broader national liberation movement. The African National Congress has declared the year 2021 as the year of unity, renewal and reconstruction and the year of Charlotte Maxeke.



The President in his address to the nation to mark Women's Day called upon the women of today to take courage from the heroism of Mama Charlotte Maxeke and many more, and I quote that she says: The woman of 1956 fought against the injustices of their time. The women of today are engaged in a new frontier of struggle. It is a struggle for equal rights, dignity, economic liberation and freedom from violence. Women have always been instrumental in the advancement of the human course. They have played a crucial role in the struggle for freedom, justice and equality and yet it is women who always bear the brunt of inequality, discrimination, marginalisation, poverty and violence. Like the women of 1956 ... [Inaudible.]

... generation of women must live the struggle for a society that is ... [Inaudible.] ... Indeed ...





... wathint’abafazi wathint’imbokodo.





Hon Chairperson, just over a month ago our country and its people witnessed social unrest comparative to none seen since the dawn of our democracy. We have seen an unprecedented destruction of property, disruption of economic activities, looting, acts of criminality and the loss of lives. We add our



voice to convey our deepest condolences to the families that lost their loved ones. We believe that the law enforcement agencies will close down on and bring to book those who were behind these riots and those who were involved in acts of criminality.



We draw inspiration and courage from community members who stood on the side of the law to protect properties in their neighbourhood. These courage acts ensured that no further damage and looting could be allowed to continue. These community members understood that any destruction of their property will take them back and will take time to rebuild and recover economically. They did what was necessary to be done to ensure that the chain of their livelihood is not disrupted. They understood that the majority of them derive their living through employment in doing business. A case in point at Maponya Mall, where residents of Pimville, Soweto, formed a human shield to prevent violence and looting and there are many such examples.



We also note and comment the interventions by government to provide some relief measures to the businesses that were affected during these riots. Our hope is that through these interventions, businesses will be rebuilt and thus contribute



to economic growth and opportunities. Hon Chair, the National Development Plan, NDP, talks of the participation of communities in safety. We correctly assert that civil society organisations and civic participation are essential elements of a safe and secure society.



It also makes emphasis on the provisions of the Constitution that provides for municipalities to be responsible for the creation of safe and healthy communities. This objective can be achieved through the establishment of community safety centres in communities where women, children and the youth are the most vulnerable. The people say that the community policing forums should be strengthened. This requires a considered program of capacity building and training of community representatives, who serve on the community policing forums.



The National Development Plan in this context is a community at the centre for creating safer communities. The reality is that the police cannot be present in all corners of the community. Therefore, the community policing forums and civil society organisations will serve as the eyes and ears in communities to monitor any form of criminality and report it. The community policing forums have a critical role to play



through the assistance to the work of the police in their locality. Hon Chair, the matter of budget constraints within the security cluster in general, and the police in particular, has been a cause for concern for many years. This has impacted on the need to improve the capacity of the police, both in terms of human resources and material capacity.



There is a need for police stations to be empowered with more resources to respond to protest as failures by the police may lead to communities resorting to vigilantism. While this matter of budget constraints remains a concern, we are also concerned that what emerged from engagements with the Saps that the money allocated to crime intelligence does not consent. This is a serious matter for us because the understanding of allocated monies humpers the stability of the SA Police Service in general and crime intelligence in particular to execute its mandate. More so, during the unrest a lot has been said regarding how intelligence performed.



For us as Parliament, we will – through our oversight - ensure that this inability to spend allocated budget does not repeat itself within the police department ... [Inaudible.] ... assure us that this will never happen again. Indeed, we will seriously engage and help how best to allocate budget to this



cluster in general and the police in particular, to enable the cluster to execute its mandate. Hon Chair, there are important lessons learned during the unrests, which includes the need for the SA Police Service to strengthen its interaction with the communities through the community policing forums, neighbourhood watches, farm watchers and all organised community activities that were intended to fight against crime.



The positive impact of the community policing forums, CPS, during the unrest and they are hard work needs to be acknowledged. The civilian secretary for police service’s role is to conduct civilian oversight over the police then provide the Minister of Police with the strategic support. The community policing forums has a key role to play in reducing violent crime through the promotion of a more active citizenry. The establishment of a new social compact, a community policing forums, CPFs, critical pulling against criminality. The community policing forums has to strengthen co-ordination between Saps and community policing forums.

Thereby, are also strengthening the confidence and trust of citizens in the SA Police Service.



The key lesson for Saps moving forward is to enhance the concept of community involved in crime prevention. Another lesson learned by Saps was that the capacity of public or decreasing was insufficient to respond adequately to the unrest. Crowd management requires members for efficient policing and the reality of the current situation is that there are insufficient numbers for public order police, POP, members is for example, the crowd management capacity of the country us over 10 000 in the past and it is currently just Over 5 000, even with an increase in population.



There were seven provinces which provided for public order police capability to support KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng during the unrest. Therefore, the strengthening of the capacity of the public order police in line with the Farlam Commission of Inquiry recommendations is necessary. In respect of private security companies, the state should be able to strengthen its interface and co-ordination with the security industry because the security industry is regulated within the space of the SA Police Service.



Furthermore, the Private Security Industry Regulating Authority has been asked to support the work of the Saps and is investigating the conduct of security companies during the



violent unrest. Hon Chair, these are but some of the areas of lessons learned and should be put as priority programs both for the police and for our oversight work. We will ensure that this form part of the annual performance plan for the police. These matters are placed higher in the priorities. I thank you very much, hon Chairperson.





COMMUNITY SAFETY): Thank you hon Chair of the House, hon Minister, hon Members of the NCOP, invited guests, I greet you this afternoon ...





... ndisithi, Malibongwe!





Violent and destructive community protests and social conflicts are not new in the postapartheid South Africa. These two trends have been prevalent in the local government since the inception of the democratic local sphere of governance.

Central to their nature is the deliberate destruction of social infrastructure, putting the lives of the people deeper into ... [Inaudible] ...imperative that is manufactured ...




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just speak closer to the microphone and lower that ... a bit louder and see what happens. Please proceed.





COMMUNITY SAFETY): Thank you Chair. This is ironic because the reality is contrary to the narrative that is manufactured during these protests, access to basic services which illuminates improved households access to water, energy and sanitation is on the rise.



Hon Chair, South Africa is a democratic country that protects basic civil liberties and provides ample opportunities to citizens to express collective discontent. Yet, social unrests rise in the country in particular in the working class or impoverished areas. Maybe we have to pause and ask ourselves as leaders a fundamental question with intention to diagnostically generate a relevant response. The question would be: Why do community protests continue in a democratic country which has made some gains in redistributing public goods? The simple answer to this question reduces all community protests to criminality and antisocial behaviour. It suggests that, increasing policing and police visibility shall resolve the problem. But, this approach has not yielded



positive results and we need to conduct a deeper analysis of protests that considers the following factors:



We need to address the persistent socioeconomic exclusion and inequality in our society. It is primarily expressed on the unemployment that is on the rise and currently sitting at plus 34% as per the report that was released 24 hours ago, inequality, food security and poverty. We must try to move towards an understanding of crime, violence and antisocial behaviour as rooted in sociological analysis. Unfortunately, none amongst ourselves contests the reality that we cannot separate criminality from socioeconomic exclusions, inequality and class factors. This fact is well documented in all research work exploring the link between human development indicators and social conflicts in urban townships or rural areas.



Hon Chair, the July violence looting and destruction of property are not analytically useful. Research into community socialist unrest prove that, catalysts for protest are more complex and varied. As government and as policy makers, we will not be able to understand these complexities without meaningfully engaging families in households, streets and village dwellers, community leaders blended in a grounded



research. The approach moves us beyond the short-term perspective that often erases long standing socioeconomic and political challenges in these localities.



Guided by the Integrated Crime and Violence Prevention Strategy, we need to begin meaningfully to place the fight against crime and violence squarely where it belongs to households. We need families doing what they did before the advent of democracy and clean our streets, villages, townships and all other places of crime and violence.



It is when we collectively at the national level that that we implement all the six pillars of the Integrated Crime and Violent Strategy that we shall make a lasting impact. We should always be reminded of the basic principles of development. There shall be no development in the circumstances of crime and violence. Our socioeconomic trajectory is heavily dependent on an environment that is free from crime and violence. Accordingly, until such time that we collectively commit and unite in the implementation of the strategy and deliberately mobilising of the society and all government, in support of the creation of the safe South African community that repeats of July 2021 can be avoided permanently.



Lastly, we need an open and frank discussion about citizenship, identity and social cohesion. Government policy is anchored around building a social cohesive nation through a common citizenship identity. Yet, lived experience and demands on social protests counter this proposition. The nation building question is South Africa is contested and continues to divide society especially at local level. We need to address the underlying class, identify cultural and political factors causing this countrywide division. One point of departure should be eliminating forms of exclusion and systematic inequality. This is where I depart from the liberal social cohesion approach which reduces nation building on a moral question without questioning existing structural power relation in society.



Hon Chair and members, it is when combine these approaches as illustrated in the six pillars of the strategy than both issues of social cohesion, crime and violent prevention can be addressed with success and be sustainable. Thank you hon Chair.



Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson, we have noted, the unrest and mass violence which took a hold of KwaZulu-Natal and the Gauteng province in July which resulted in the looting of shops,



warehouses and factories, caused damage to critical infrastructure and the massacre of African lives.



However, the government should have foreseen the unrest long before it happened. But then again, Chairperson, there is no way that the government would have known because in South Africa, there is no intelligence capacity in the police or in defence as the intelligence itself is preoccupied with the ruling party’s factional battles and looting, lying to Members of Parliament in Intelligence Committee’s without any consequences.



South Africa has, since 1994, been in one crisis after another. Service delivery has collapsed in much of the country and the government is inefficient and riddled with corruption.



It must be made clear to this House today that it is the ruling party’s factional battles which caused the largest unrest and mass violence which the country has witnessed since democracy. That is the main point which needs to be driven in this House today, otherwise we are going to be misled and misinformed and in turn mislead the nation.



The unrest, violence and looting is a ruling party problem, because it was caused by forces within the ruling party calling



for the release of former President Jacob Zuma after he was arrested for contempt of court.



This led to the supply chain of entire province being destroyed, billions of dollars’ worth of damage being suffered by two of the country’s major cities, and hundreds of businesses and key parts of the country’s infrastructure being burned to the ground.



Today we stand in the aftermath of massive destruction because of the ruling party and the House turns and informs us that we have to sit here and discuss what needs to be done in order to control and correct a mess, caused by their differences.



The ruling party itself has admitted before that there were credible accusations that some of its officials were involved in the planning and carrying out of these attacks.



It is therefore the ruling party which is supposed to come here and inform us how they will sort out the mess which they created, without turning to tactics of army deployment as they usually do when they do not have a handle of the situation. The ruling party must be held accountable.



The government should also inform us how they will tackle the problem of poverty, unemployment and food insecurity which has taken over the country. For last month’s lootings were also a cry for help by citizens struggling to come to terms with the realities of poverty, inequality and unemployment.



The majority of our people live in poverty, with more than 34% of the labour force being unemployed. According to the most recent statistics released on unemployment in South Africa, unemployed people and those who have been discouraged from searching for employment have increased to 7,8 million and  3,3 million in the second quarter of 2021. This is the highest unemployment rate recorded ever.



Even amongst women, under Cyril Ramaphosa’s Cabinet, we have seen an increase of unemployment from 34 to 36,8%. The majority of which being black women living in townships and rural areas.



Poverty has become an everyday lived experience for the majority of our black brothers and sisters. This is obvious in those items which were looted in July which were mainly food and basic goods, a true indication of the poverty that has gotten hold of South Africa.



The conditions of the people are generally bad and show no sign of a liberated people. And today, the people of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng province are suffering. The looting has cost the KwaZulu-Natal economy more than R20 billion and placed more than

150 000 jobs in the province at risk. About 40 000 businesses in the province were affected and Covid vaccination drives have been disrupted.



Even with the financial support which has been promised to business to rebuild in the aftermath of the lootings will not be enough to rectify the current economic situation.



It will take years for both KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng province to recover as even before the lootings, the South African economy was already in recession. It is the poorest of the poor who will continue to feel the pinch long after the unrests have passed.



Ours is the only party which understands and fights for the rights of the poor in South Africa and as such true changes can only come through our movement. For our mandate comes from our manifesto which was adopted eight years ago and is at all times on the side of the weak.



Under President Cyril Ramaphosa, poverty, inequality and unemployment is getting worse and has reached a point of crisis. Our people are living in worse conditions in terms of food security, housing, job opportunities and everything else than they did three years ago.



The country is on the brink of collapse because ownership and control of the country’s resources still lie in the hands of a few white men who are only interested in exploitation and racism. Unless we decisively dismantle colonial and apartheid patterns of ownership and control of the economy, South Africa will soon have more unemployed people than employed.



As I conclude Chair, as a party we advocate for proposals which will redistribute land equally, build capable state, health, education and water infrastructure and address the unemployment crisis. We also stand against the continued discrimination of women from all spheres of economic emancipation, especially in relation to the unemployment figures.



As we approach the upcoming local government elections, we call on the people of South Africa to vote for the EFF to build capable municipalities that will create jobs. And that can only be done by the EFF. I thank you.





Chairperson, it is indeed a great honour for me to participate in this debate and to give records on our plans as the province of KwaZulu-Natal on creating peaceful, stable and efforts to rebuild our province beyond the public violence, looting and destruction of property.



Certainly, the scenes and episodes we all witnessed in the beginning of July were devastating and disheartening. This was even more disappointing, especially because it occurred at the time when as the country we are celebrating the life and times of a pioneer and freedom stalwart, uMama Charlotte Maxeke.

Through all her work and efforts, she sought to contribute to a South Africa that is united and prosperous.



Hon members, the looting and vandalism incidents shook all of us and delayed some of the programmes that we had earmarked as the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government. We know that many people lost their jobs as the results of the civil unrest, as many warehouses, shopping centres and businesses were looted and burnt to ashes. It was for this reason that our hon Premier, Sihle Zikalala, filed an application to the Presidency that what happened in the province of KwaZulu-Natal should be accorded a status of state of disaster.



Hon members, having all said and done, what remains our biggest challenge and obviously our main focus is how we are bouncing back as the province of KwaZulu-Natal. Our former President, Dr Nelson Mandela, once said “Don’t judge me by my successes, judge me by how many times I fell down and got back up again”



We are, therefore, saying, yes, we have slipped but we are determined to rise again. KwaZulu-Natal is ready for business, KwaZulu-Natal is rising, KwaZulu-Natal is bouncing back.



Hon Chairperson, two weeks ago I was among the delegation that accompanied the hon Premier to meet with the international diplomats representing 40 countries in an effort to rebuild and to present our province as an investment destination of choice. Premier Zikalala assured the world of the provincial government’s efforts in advancing peace and promoting social cohesion and moral regeneration among our communities.



Hon members, as the government we understand that for our province to thrive again we need to fasten our security screws and nuts.



I can assure this House that as the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, JCPS, we have developed and we are implementing a clear security plan in order for us to stabilise our province. Our plan includes the deployment of law enforcement agencies to guard all strategic areas such the National Key Points, which includes airports and major traffic routes. We have also intensified our early detection efforts to avoid being caught off-guard, hon members.



We are all aware that law enforcement agencies have made a serious progress in apprehending those who are alleged to have been responsible for these violent crimes. We once again want to send our condolences to the families of all the people who lost their lives during the unrests.



Hon Chairperson and hon members, during the weekend of the 21st and 22nd of August another widespread threats to shut down the country was announced from Monday the 23rd, there were circulated voice notes around all social media. We couldn’t sit down and fold our arms. Law enforcement officials had to be deployed in strategic points to ensure that we are able to prevent any disruptive actions from happening.



Thanks to our law enforcement agencies, which included the SA Police Services, SAPS, SA National Defence Force, SANDF, Metro Police and other law enforcement officials for making sure that nothing happened. We also salute our community members who stood up and said: not this time again. The threat is not yet over; hence our law enforcement agencies remains on high alert.



Hon members, let me take you a little bit back. It all started in July where our province experienced sporadic public violence. This was initially a concern by a few aggrieved community members, as the hon Minister has alluded to that fact.



While we were all busy trying to extinguish the flames, the problem took another turn and displayed a serious racial tension in some areas but mainly around Phoenix, Chatsworth, Verulam and Northdale in Pietermaritzburg. People were reportedly profiled simply based on the colour of their skin. The problem was mainly between the African and the Indian communities. What is even more worrying is that people, including defenceless women, were attacked while driving on public roads. They were forced out of their vehicles and



assaulted and some were even killed. To date, we know that at least 36 people lost their lives.



We appreciate the level of intervention that we saw, especially from the hon Minister of Police, General Bheki Cele. Over 30 detectives were assigned to investigate the cases in Phoenix. At least 33 suspects have since been arrested and they are currently attending cases for their alleged involvement. It is regrettable that amongst those arrested, two of them are police reservists who were arrested for allegedly defeating the ends of justice by trying to influence witnesses.



Hon Chairperson, we are pleased that the situation is slowly returning to normalcy but efforts are still being exerted to bring lasting peace within these communities. As the Department of Community Safety and Liaison we have established peace committees in areas that were affected by these racial tensions.



We have also entered into a partnership with other stakeholders like the Department of Agriculture where, together with the affected communities, we will be



establishing a Peace and Unity Gardens. This will assist us to unite the warring groups while also conserving food security.



Furthermore, working together with the Department of Arts, Culture, Sport and Recreation we are organising sporting activities where again these communities will participate. With all of this, we are trying to integrate these communities. We know that sport brings people together. Our world icon, Dr Nelson Mandela, encouraged us to use sport in difficult times and he said:



Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope where once there was only despair.



Hon members, as we are led by Premier Zikalala, we have also resuscitated our programme of social cohesion and moral regeneration. We understand that this will bring about a lasting solution in uniting these communities.



We have also realised that there is a huge gap of inequality between these nearby communities. The Department of Human



Settlement will soon be implementing the integrated and sustainable human settlement programme. This programme aims to deal with the high levels of inequality and discrimination in the areas. We envisaged a community where all people live together.



We also support and appreciate the work currently being done by the Chapter 9 institutions in trying to integrate these communities. The Commission for the Protection of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Rights, CRL, is currently conducting hearings with the affected communities. Upon conclusion of their task they will provide us with their report containing detailed recommendations on how to deal with the situation, moving forward.



Hon members, barricades in other areas were also conducted in a racial approach where black African residents were disallowed to access their homes based on their skin colour. The Human Rights Commission has also intervened in trying to investigate what actually transpired in these communities. We appreciate the participation of Community Policing Forums who intervened in various areas to dose the burning fires of thievery and looting.



Hon Chairperson and hon members, like Maya Angelou in her poem titled Still I Rise:



Just like moons and like suns, With the certainty of tides, Just like hopes springing high, Still I rise.



People of KwaZulu-Natal are declaring to the world to know that KwaZulu-Natal is rising, KwaZulu-Natal is striving towards being a united and peaceful province. I thank you.



Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, MECs, permanent and special delegates, SA Local Government Association, Salga, leadership and fellow South Africans, good afternoon. Let me take this opportunity to wish hon Deputy President a happy birthday, strength and good health.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, yesterday, we received another rude reminder that South Africa is facing some of the most daunting social and economic challenges in the world. The gloomy headlines in the local and international media yesterday were depressing, for example, the headline on the online platform



of Aljazeera - the Qatar-based news corporation, was that South Africa’s unemployment rate is now the highest in the world. Clearly, we need drastic measures to turnaround our economy. It is painful to read that South Africa’s unemployment rate surged to the highest on a global list of 82 countries monitored by Bloomberg. Statistics South Africa has informed the nation and the world that the official rate of unemployment rose to 34,4% in the second quarter of this year. But what is even more depressing, is that according to the expanded definition, which includes people who were available for work but not looking for a job, unemployment rose to 44,4% from 43,2% in the first quarter. If we take into account the extension of the lockdown measures in the third quarter, in response to the third wave of COVID-19 infections, joblessness is likely to rise further when the next Quarterly Labour Survey results are published. The COVID-19 has hindered efforts to revive our economy that shrank by 7% last year.

This represents the sharpest drop in a century.



The events of July 2021 in the two key economic hubs, KwaZulu- Natal and Gauteng, plunged our country into unprecedented chaos, claimed many lives and saw thousands of businesses and infrastructure looted and torched to the ground, thus placing thousands of jobs at risk.



The topic of this debate has been framed correctly, as a discussion on restoring stability and rebuilding beyond the public violence, looting and destruction of property. This framing should guide all of us to confront the issues, but also focus on the tasks at hand for those of us who are patriots. We need meaningful social compacts between government, business, organized labour and communities towards building an inclusive economy that creates jobs, particularly for women and the youth.



Our Select Committee on Trade and Industry, Economic Development, Small Business Development, Tourism, Employment and Labour conducted a two-legged fact-finding visit to the provinces of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng on 3rd to 6th August 2021. The committee undertook this visit to various locations jointly with the Portfolio Committees on Small Business Development, and Trade and Industry. The delegations also included senior leadership from various municipalities, development agencies such as Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, and Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, local chambers, as well as provincial departments responsible for economic development.



We went to the ground in order to obtain first-hand knowledge and assess the gravity of the impact of the looting and violence on the small enterprises, co-operatives and informal traders. We went to meet and interact with the people; it was not just site seeing. We heard the stories of owners of small business and large enterprises of workers and families who had lost everything they had invested in.



Our visit was not merely to shed tears with those who had suffered losses. We went to understand the underlying circumstances that made it possible for those who wanted to instigate mayhem in order to achieve their narrow political goals, to unleash such violence and wanting destruction on our economy. We also sought to provide the departments and state entities an opportunity to showcase their product and service offerings to the business people who desperately need help.



The impact on small businesses and the informal sector, which are overwhelmingly black and female-owned is devastating. The Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, in townships and around malls and small-scale agriculture have been decimated in some areas. This goes against the narrative by some fake revolutionaries that this was an attack on the so-called white monopoly capital.



Our committee further observed that include the magnitude of the damage to property and disruption to various economic value chains means that the financial costs of the unrest will run into billions of rands. The committees welcome the government’s economic relief support to offset the adverse impacts of the unrest. Equally, we note that a large portion of the financial aid, approximately R20 billion, will be by way of insurance claims through Sasria. We also welcome the R2,3 billion allocated to businesses that are not covered by Sasria. However, this amount does not match the scale of the destruction suffered by many small businesses. The amount of R4 billion from the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, DTIC, Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and the National Empowerment Fund, NEF, will go a long way towards supporting affected small and informal businesses in townships, rural areas and small towns impacted by the unrest.



We are aware and welcome the financial and nonfinancial support that the Department of Small Business Development is providing to the SMMEs and the informal traders. The hon Minister will give further details including the compliance requirements to qualify for the support. The extent of the destruction of property in KwaZulu-Natal was much deeper than



in Gauteng. This implies that the recovery period in KwaZulu- Natal is likely to take much longer.



The committees also made observations on the systemic challenges that need to be addressed as we reconstruct the economies of the two provinces and the country. We noted that in some areas, shopping malls deliberately alienated informal traders from participating in the retail opportunity, with the traders having to occupy sites on the periphery of these developments and in conditions that are not ideal for conducting business. These issues of structural exclusion could partly explain the causes of our country’s persistent unemployment, inequality and poverty, particularly amongst black people, women and the youth.



In light of the adjusted COVID-19 restrictions, we must welcome the extension of the Temporary Employee Relief Scheme, TERS, for certain affected employees, including the latest directive provides that the TERS benefit payments will be made directly to workers’ bank accounts rather than to their employers – a point that is always emphasised by the Minister of Employment and Labour, who is here with us today.



The committees also made a number of recommendations. I will highlight only a few of them: We recommend that the Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition and the Minister of Small Business Development through their development agencies, Seda and Sefa and NEF should work in a co-ordinated manner with Sasria to intensify the empowerment campaigns targeting small businesses and informal traders; there is a need for the two Ministers to engage the Minister of Finance to provide within the fiscal framework additional funding to support affected SMMEs and small traders, particular the uninsured; all spheres of government should urgently tackle regulatory constraints that are hindering the operations and expansion of small traders; the Minister of Small Business Development working closely with other spheres of government should concretise and lead measures to improve relationships between the shopping centres, supermarkets and informal traders; and there must be a review of the encroachment by large-scale retail chains into townships and small town economies as they tend to destroy microenterprises and informal street traders. The District Development Model provides a useful framework for such relationships to be forged.



We call upon the Ministers of Small Business Development and DTIC to convene a summit with the Chamber of Business and



informal trader association in the City of Ekurhuleni to deal with contentious issues obstructing business growth, and sustainability. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.



Mr M F P TAU (Gauteng MEC – Economic, Agriculture and Rural Development): Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Chairperson of the NCOP hon Masondo, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, without a doubt townships and informal settlements comprise a geographic and demographical space that represents South Africa’s lived reality of continued class and racial inequality. Going on their sense of geographic and systematic economic exclusion, unfortunately and tragically, it was easy to mobilise township residents to participate in the destruction of their economic infrastructure.



To remedy this inherited apartheid special and economic context, there is an opportunity for special targeting of townships for development and transformation of purposes as inclusive enterprise zones. Central to this is to recognise those who operate in regulated spaces, the most disadvantaged people. Therefore, there is urgency and existential need to open up regulated spaces to the vast majority of township businesses. This means changing the rules which governs



commercial operations and those which dictates access to funding and access to market.



Hon members, this is possible in Gauteng through the township economic partnership funds whose objective is to facilitate the most inclusive and most scalable way of creating access to finance across unbanked and underbanked township-based small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs. To give this new rights material value we need to create meaningful access of funding for SMMEs so that they can grow and create jobs. But unfortunately these are locked out when banks ask for things such as the audited financial statements, collateral or a banking history. The answer we have found is to work with smart platforms which are almost universally not banks.

Specifically, R2050 million from the Gauteng provincial government is being allocated to a wholesale fund that leverages both public and private money. The

Gauteng Enterprise Propeller, GEP, and the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, have deployed R100 million from this fund to a rapid deployment township rebuilding initiative. This provides for funding that constituted of 50% grant and 50% loans with a cap of R1 million for smaller formal businesses in distress and up to R50 000 grant funding for informal businesses. These fund we launched yesterday and



is open to all those distressed businesses in the Gauteng province that have been impacted by the recent looting. Those that qualify in particular are the underinsured and uninsured enterprises that are in the townships.



This is only the beginning of what we are estimating. It will be close to R1 billion worth of blended financing and we will be able to disburse through intermediaries especially those who match us rent for rent and even more than rent for rent.



Hon members, we have presented the Gauteng township to the legislature of the province for consideration. The Bill is going through its final revisions and the department is working with the property sector on a voluntary basis to finance and support the transformation of townships which surrounds their developments. We are negotiating a township retail fund that will target very small enterprises for inclusion to rebuild retail malls and other township retail developments particularly black-owned enterprises who would typically not have access to bank financing. Along with this fund we will be convening an action lap with the property sector focussed on how to deploy much bolder, more integrated transformation of value chains across the retail and property sector as it interacts with our townships.



Hon Chairperson, the fact is that township-based enterprises, half a million of which are active in the Gauteng informal economy alone, can be the very clusters of fast growing firms that we need. Their potential is unlimited to incorporate and empower an army of eager young workers who are clamouring for economic opportunities more than dependents on state welfare.



Our department, through its data projected by simply moving the informal layer of township businesses to a more productive footing say from an average of R30 000 a month turnover to an average of R100 000 would mean each of them has the capacity to create two jobs. Townships and informal settlements are indispensable new class for jobs and wealth creation at mass scale that would be possible when enumerable new and smaller firms that creating productive capacity in our townships.



One of the keys to breaking in in the higher economic growth lies in growing and diversifying the hundreds of thousands of firms lining the streets and back yards of our townships.



In conclusion, let us remember that there are thousands more firms that can be established servicing value chains, public and private alike which crisscross our country. This is also one of the strategic outcomes to cutting down youth



unemployment to reasonable single digits and halving intergenerational inequality that fuel the July insurrections. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.



Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, the public violence, looting, destruction of property and murders that occurred in July 2021 in both KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng provinces is a damning reminder that the governing party has failed on their most basic task on providing security to the nation. Time and time again the IFP has raised concerns about many issues that affects the lived experiences of our people. The government through its stubbornness and immaturity cast aside our warnings only to learn the hard way. The government’s careless act later and poor planning has given birth to the worse type of our atrocities in this country. As a nation we merely stood by as looting, destruction and universally accepted a description of anarchy in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng rendered law abiding citizens powerless. The governing party talks of democracy when it suits them. To resolve on issues without resorting to violence, a very essence of democracy and through their sheer incompetency to address our country’s issues. We were left at the literal burning coals of destruction. When the signs were clear that the violence that would grip our nation was going to be



massive, the IFP, through its party leader in Parliament Prince KwaPindangene and its governing party to activate the security apparatus of this country.



We called for the immediate deployment of the National Defence Force because it was clear that what was coming was big but avoidable. What did the ANC do? The ANC did not listen to us. The ANC continued as if all was normal only to respond when billions of properties had been lost to the looting and destruction. Today, we are present to take stock of the current devastation. However, it did not take experts and all members of the society to know that the lasting devastation will plunge us into the depths of poverty like many other African war-torn countries. We must look like absolute fools when we cannot stray away from the poor examples that we have witnessed from neighbouring countries. Instead we merely follow in the footsteps of the worse possible examples.



The devastation has immediately caused us more than 350 of our people’s precious lives. These were people who would have brought our nation’s prosperity, people who could have stood alongside us chanting our national anthem, people who had families, people who did not deserve to die at the hands of the governing party’s factional battles. However, we all know



that if it was not for the factional battles of the ruling party, not for the fights of which one of their comrades get tenders and if they actually paid attention to issues of government, there would not have been such a high tally of destruction and the blood of the people would not be on their hands. Those who jealously defend the governing party and do not condemn its overall behaviour are complacent to the destruction of the property and deaths of so many of our people.



The IFP does not believe that the mission here today should end with speeches. We need to come ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ngwezi, you are muted. We don’t here you. Hon Ngwezi! Hon Ngewzi! In any case you time is up.





other presiding officers of the NCOP, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, hon members and members of the public watching this important debate, allow me to express my appreciation for being afforded an opportunity to be part of today’s debate.



Hon members, 46 days ago, our beautiful country went through a painful, traumatic and devastating experience that in a space of seven days from the 9th of July to the 18th, many households lost income and breadwinners lost jobs. This comes after buildings were burnt down, shops looted and people died. We remain grateful to those individuals that defended our country and those that are helping us to rebuild our nation.



Hon members, it is well documented that South Africa faces major social, political and economic challenges. Our country has not emerged from the social injustices of the past and has witnessed ...[Inaudible.]... examples of inequality on the globe. During the month of July, the challenges were furthest exposed and affected the quality of lives of thousands of South Africans particularly the small businesses. Amid fighting the pandemic, South Africa was engraved with social unrest which took place predominantly in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. This unrest also had a devastating effect on small and micro enterprises as well as informal traders which threatened and continues to threaten the livelihoods of entrepreneurs, employees, suppliers and the entire SMME, small medium and micro enterprises, value chain.



It is very unfortunate that others see an opportunity to create petty politics over this tragedy. Chairperson, according to the South African Property Owners Association and the Business Leadership of South Africa, the estimated cost of the unrest on the economy is R1,5 billion losses in stock,  R15 billion damage on property and equipment, more than 800 retail stores looted and 100 completely burned.



This has negatively impacted at least 15 000 informal traders and 40 000 businesses placing 150 000 jobs at risk. The socioeconomic ratifications of these statistics should be obvious to all. The urgency for decisive government intervention to assist and arrest the negative effects of this cannot be more emphasised. Indecisiveness could further destabilise our communities and resulting for long periods of depravity, social decay, opportunistic and populistic hijacking of the crisis, school dropouts and more dependants on social grants.



Fellow South Africans, cognisant of the urgency of the matters at hand, our portfolio has been working diligently to create significant support programmes focusing on accelerating businesses and economic recovery with a view to curb job losses as well as closure of operating businesses.



We have lost two business recovery support packages namely the business recovery support programme and the informal traders support programme in addition to what my colleagues have spoken about, both in national and provincial government.



The business recovery support packages for small business are designed to provide special relief to those affected by the looting and unrest providing them with an opportunity to apply for working capital which includes stock, equipment which vehicles for business purposes, furniture as well as fittings.



Small enterprises with existing funding from other lenders are also considered. We are aware that our small businesses are struggling therefore they continue to rely on loans. With the unrest predominantly taking place in Gauteng and KwaZulu- Natal, preference is given to businesses in these provinces that have been dubbed as the epicentres of the unrest.



The business recovery support programme offers the following financial support, blended finance which is a combination of a grant that is grant of 60% and a loan of 40%.



Fellow South Africans, this means I’m going to make an example


that if we are giving you R1 million, this means that R600 000



of that is grant that is given to you as an SMME and the remaining R400 000 is what is a loan and in that loan you are therefore expected to pay 5% which is the interest and as you pay 5% on top of that initial amount we have also put a moratorium of up to 12 months for the small businesses in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng and 6 months in other provinces. The repayment period of up to five years and maximum funding accessible per entity is R2 million.



If we give you the R2 million, this means R1,2 million is a grant, R800 0000 is what we are loaning to you. You pay 5%, I repeat, the programme solely funds the businesses that are 100% owned by South Africans, registered and compliant with Sars or the South African Revenue Services.



The department requests that all small businesses that apply for this funding be registered on the national SMME database on the following address, www.smmesa.gov.za. More information can also be accessed of Facebook on the department’s page, Department of Small Business Development of on Twitter @ DSBD_SA.



We have accelerated the implementation of the SMME database encouraging SMMEs to apply online. Of course we are aware of



the challenges of connectivity including the digital illiteracy in certain areas which is why Seda is going out there to assist those that will not be able to apply by themselves.



Hon members, to date more than 240 000 unique SMMEs have registered on the platform. The system is based on integration to key government agencies and departments to ensure that data validation is achieved improving the turnaround for the validation and completion of the process.



I have heard hon Rayi who made mention of the fact that we need to strengthen relations and get coordinated working with other departments specifically the departments of DTIC, Department of Trade Industry and Competition, and the platform that we are talking about also looks at that. We endeavour to ensure that these process is less bureaucratic and that the turnaround times are as expeditious as possible.



Hon members, it is also important that the needs of the businesses are understood and the interventions are tailored, appropriate and sufficient. To this end, the package will correspondingly comprise of pre and post none financial support offered by Seda. This will include small businesses



and assisted to package their funding applications to access the funds available and customise business development support based on the needs of small enterprises.



Applications for the business recovery programme can be emailed to [email protected]. The business recovery support

packages aimed at supporting informal and micro businesses in the informal sector include the provision of business forecast, financial and non-financial support.



The second one, the informal trader support programme aims to support 17 667 entrepreneurs at R3 000 each as a once off grant. Here, we are talking about hawkers and other unregistered businesses.



The business development support linked to the programme is coordinated through Seda, our agency. Businesses that apply through this scheme must be owned wholly by South Africans but need not be registered with the CIPC, Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, and Sars due to their size and status of operations. We do understand the way our mothers and sisters live by selling vegetables on the streets. This is why we are making a specific intervention to ensure that they



continue to provide the services and therefore be able to send their children to schools.



The department urges small businesses and informal traders to take this opportunity and apply for the business recovery support programme offered to ease the pressure and risk to closing their businesses while progressively elevating the economy during this difficult period.



Given the magnitude of the challenges being faced by small businesses in certain areas and the mammoth task of rebuilding that lies ahead in those areas. Time is of essence as applications will now close on the 30th of September instead of the 30th of August. Additional information on the qualifying criteria and registration may be accessed on our official website at www.dsbd.gov.za or www.sefa.org.za or www.seda.org.za or alternatively SMMEs may get in contact with

the department by sending email an inquiry to [email protected] or simply call 0866677867.



We continue to work with all South Africans to respond to the crisis and rebuild the SMME sector that is more resilient and sustainable. We call on the private sector and other



stakeholders to partner with us in forging expeditious solutions to save our important SMMEs in the affected areas.



This could take many forms such as extended loans repayment period, new credit facilities, collaboration opportunities, rebuilding of facilities of small traders and other such interventions.



We will be focusing on coordinating all government efforts towards supporting the SMMEs to ensure maximum impact. As a Minister responsible for small business development, I invite you all to work hand in glove with the department as we continue to reinforce our commitment to develop, support and promote small enterprises to ensure their growth and sustainability. Many of the small and medium enterprises provide employment and are a means of living to a significant number of fellow South Africans and we would like to be catalyst in preventing as much loss of livelihoods as possible. I thank you, hon Chairperson.





AND LIAISON: Deputy Chair, the Presiding Chair for this session and let me take this opportunity and greet the entire leadership of the NCOP that is leading together with yourself,



Ministers, Deputy Ministers, as well as my colleagues from other provinces, it is an honour, and on same note observe all protocols.



It is indeed a privilege to join this debate today in a country and our province, in particular, that some sort of challenges during that time that all of us are aware of where some damages and sporadic events or incidents happened in our areas. But, I must say that, as a province, with the leadership that we have in the province ranging from the premier Ms Refilwe Mtsweni-Tsipane, a woman, as well as the capable new provincial commissioner, Lieutenant General Manamela and they're working together with the national Minister, calling us on daily basis, checking us whether we are having challenges that are beyond our control. And we were able to say or to give assurance to him as well as the people of the province that we are and we were on top of the situation. And I must say that collective working together as a province ... I'm not going to venture to the economic and social issues that my colleagues have made mention of, that will be repetition but I will go straight to the situation of my province and how did we, as the province, were able to deal or avert that particular situation that happened in other provinces.



And I must say the support that we got from our stakeholders, the taxi associations, faith-based associations, traditional leadership, all political parties that we have in the province, Community Policing Forums, CPFs, committees, individuals, business people and everyone from all walks of life in Mpumalanga. We came together and made sure that we approached the situation together with the provincial government.



Hence, you'll see what in Mpumalanga is not what happened in other provinces. And I can assure the leadership and my colleagues that if we work together we will be able to deal with and avert incidents that might occur in future. You will remember that, as Mpumalanga, we are bordering Mozambique and Eswatini and some incidents occurred in Eswatini during almost the same time and we were, as Mpumalanga, also eyeing that particular area and I must say, the system in place by the government ... I hear other people saying that they doubted the government of the day, meaning that they doubt the system of the day. And I want to differ with that. You know, the current systems, they are good. The only thing is that we must make them work. The units that we have in the security cluster, you know, all of us working together, complimenting



each other, I can tell you, we can avert and face any situation and be able to manage that.



But also if you talk of the system, you talk of different types of policing, justice, whoever, even private security, if properly managed, they've also played a significant role in our province to make sure that they, they play a role together with us in making sure that we deal with the so-called situation which wanted to disrupt us as a province.



Some sporadic events or incidents happened in Matsulu, in Kanyamazane, Nkangala, Eskom areas and Mbombela. But let me tell the meeting that all those sporadic incidents we were able to manage, though, at a particular time, there were trucks that were a few trucks that were burned as well as Eskom combis and a few incidents of looting that took place in the Matsulu area. And we were able to make arrests. We were able to arrest about 50 of those culprits and five of them caught red-handed with the items that they looted in those particular areas. And I must say that some of the so-called instigators, the ones that were brave enough to go to social media and declare that they were going to do 1-2-3, those, as I'm talking, are behind bars. And I want to emphasise once again to the Minister of Police who is here, that one other



unit which I think must be strengthened in the province and the country is that of the Tactical Response Team, TRT. That unit is relevant in dealing with some situations in our areas. And if they are under good leadership and properly supervised, they can be able to assist and they have assisted us in a number of areas.



And I'm asking, as a MEC for Community Safety, Security and Liaison from Mpumalanga, I'm quite happy that in August which is the month of our wonderful women, the provincial commissioner, who's a woman, our premier whose also women, were able to come to this space and assist and gave us the necessary support that we wanted.



And I must say that including the Ministry of Police under the capable Bheki Cele, he was from day-to-day calling me left, right and centre, sometimes at night ... [Interjections.]



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Capable?





AND LIASON: ... to check whether we are coping as Mpumalanga. Am I protected, Chairperson?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You’re protected. You don't need protection, hon Cele is there to protect you. you may continue as your time is almost over.





AND LIASON Thank you. thank you, Chairperson.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: You’ve just said he’s capable!





AND LIASON Yeah, I am saying he is capable. That is my understanding insofar as crime is concerned. I'm not talking politics here. I'm talking facts as I'm talking from Mpumalanga. I'm talking facts. You'll remember that recently we had some sporadic incidents in Middleburg, Steve Tshwete Local Municipality, through his support and the national commissioner and my provincial commissioner, we were able to handle that situation without any failure. We must not doubt, as South Africans, our systems of security. What we need to do is to make sure that we work together. We strengthen our intelligence by doing that without any fear and I can tell you we are, and we will be able to be on top of the situation.

Thank you very much, Chair.



Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, House Chair, the insurrection lived by all of us during the week of the 25th July was a wake up call for many South Africans. The people of South Africa realised that they cannot rely on their government to protect them from lawlessness. They realised that they cannot rely on their government to enforce the law. They realised that the government who should be monitoring and evaluating risk, had no better intelligence capability than a teenager with a smart phone and an internet connection.



This came as a scary wake up to many from a course. All race groups, all neighbourhoods and communities who had already given up on the government when it comes to education, they pay for private schooling. They have already given up on the government when it comes to health care, they choose private hospitals and positions. They have given up on the government when it comes to basic protection, they have private security firms to guard their homes, assets and lives. They have given up on the Department of Energy, and are looking at solar power. Given up on the public broadcaster and have DSTV or Netflix. Given up on local government and started filling potholes themselves. Manning sewerage treatment plants themselves. Maintaining parks and public places themselves.

They pay taxes in this country to work. These are the



fortunate few who can afford the private alternatives. Too many of our people are left to just do without, and then as we were threatened by a group who tried to steal our democracy the entire Security Cluster failed dismally. Forcing communities to come together in the face of violent lawlessness and protect not only their own homes, businesses, lives and families, but the businesses that serve their communities, the homes and shops of their neighbours and of total strangers.



Let this House, today salute every man and woman who chose to take a stand and stepped in to do the government’s work for them. Once again, law-abiding South Africans we honour you. I am proud to call you our countryman. But what about the other people on the other side of this conflict or conflicted worse. There are four clear groups of these:



The first one is the desperate people of South Africa, people driven into poverty by protracted lockdown. People desperate just to put food on the table. The elderly man and woman, the children who were arrested by the police were clearly not the type of people to lead an insurrection. They were used because their situation is so desperate that they could be relied on, to take advantage of the lawlessness. It’s ironic that this



group desperate situation has partly created and has been exacerbated by the Zuma cartel, who stole so much that was meant to improve the lives of this very group. The cartel, which is now using them as cannon fodder. They will, of course, be joined by some real opportunists driving in their Mercedes Benzes,4x4s and GTIs who jumped on a bandwagon just because they saw a gap. But these were not the real insurgence, they would never throw a rock to break a window, but once the window is broken they certainly succumb to temptation.



The second group is, of course, the rock throwers. The political agitators who are angry, the mob, the foot soldier who tried to topple our democracy. Clearly, they were present in far greater numbers in KwaZulu-Natal than in Gauteng. They were the machine that broke and burnt wantedly. A dangerous group who have no love for law and order, no love for our democracy or for our Constitution.



The third group were the instigators. The still named 12 that we have heard so much about, who it seems those 12 were about as real as those 10 babies, as we have yet to see a credible, high level of arrest and prosecution, not the small fry that the Minister told us about earlier. We are talking about the



planners and the schemers who chose to use the first group, the desperation of the South Africans to fight the battle for them. They chose to use the downtrodden and make criminals of those old men and women and those children. They mobilised on their rock throwers with precision and co-ordinated their plans to cause maximum chaos. There should be no messy for these instigators. They must be sniffed out and face the law to account for their actions and those actions were dastardly. Those actions were treasonous; those actions must be paid for.



The fourth group, of course, was the bickering Ministers and politicians so busy choosing sides and pointing fingers. But they forgot that they were elected to represent all South Africans, not just an old criminal in his cell, whose crimes are the very reason that so many were driven to this desperation. Yet, now he advances to the hospital bed and then, of course, a comfortable discharge and perhaps a golf course with a friend.



The country has paid the price for the factional battles within the ruling party. The party that is entrusted to govern us all, as South Africa recovers and rebuilds with our typical resilience. This government must acknowledge its failures and truly contribute from the recovery of this darkest time. If it



is not able to do so, then let this government stand aside and make space for the government that can. Make space for the government that gets things done. Thank you.



Cllr M BOOYSEN (SALGA): Hon Chairperson, all protocols observed. As South African Local Government Association, Salga, we are hugely covered by the previous speakers in terms of the unfortunate loss of lives, the damage to infrastructure and property, the cost to the South African economy and the unforeseen circumstances which have led to the huge number of unemployment as well as the intelligence’s short comings that this incident has reflected.



The South African Local Government Association has identified as urgent need to have community driven programmes that encourage community policing and community involvement that reiterates the role and mandate of community policing forums that is infused with Ubuntu, non-racial, transparent and accountable action by all communities.



The South African Local Government Association support and encourage all levels of engagements from communities, however, it is necessary for a refreshed training programme on public safety and security within all its members, that incorporates



the South African Criminal Act, the critical infrastructure protection Act and the management and the role of private security companies within all our communities.



The South African Local Government Association further encourages diversity in community policing forums that encourage participation of women and especially the youth. As an organisation we strive to facilitate dialogue that incorporate all stakeholders at national, provincial and local government, that include community that must include community policing forums, councillors, religious leaders, the business sector, youth, NGOs and all role players within our communities. The South African Local Government Association also encourages its members to engage with communities to foster open transparent communication where the security and the concerns of communities are freely expressed as this will be part of the foundation for rebuilding the trust in the security clusters.



What the incident in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng has highlighted are the failures within the intelligence community and it must be assessed whether this was due to the perceived nefarious behaviour of the intelligence community or inadequate information sources that are not proving real time



intelligence. The South African Local Government Association therefore supports private public partnerships and community driven initiatives that encourage broad base information sharing with law enforcement agencies. This is achieved through the utilisation of innovative, technological solutions that allow individuals to report suspicious behaviour to a central information repository that allows where big data can be analysed for any suspicious terms or words or phrases that the clusters can investigate and come up with preventative actions.



The South African Local Government Association encourages early warning centres to be fully operational and equipped with analytical capabilities at a local government level that can populate into provincial and national intelligence repository.



The South African Local Government Association encourages stakeholders of government at all levels to be ambassadors and implement agencies of the south African economic policies as part of the South African recovery plan. South Africa houses the second largest number of embassies in the world and most embassies have representation at provincial level where local government interact with diplomatic representation.



As a country we also have a large deployment of diplomats across the globe. The South African Police Service, the South African Defence Force, South African Home Affairs, South African Department of Forestry, State Security and International Relations, are among the agencies that are deployed to various embassies around the world.



The incident has had a negative impact on foreign investor confidence in South Africa and every platform must be used to rebuild confidence in South Africa and to rebuild investor confidence for the international investors to reinvest in South Africa.



The South African Local Government Association supports and recommends that all government agencies at all spheres of government have key performance indicators that are linked to the national economic policy. The South African Local Government Association supports the police anomic initiative of the South African Police Service that leaves an economic impact of police activities, it encourages the rollout of the strategy to provincial and local government.



We further encourage that the strategy incorporates deliverables into the annual performance plan and key



performance indicators for all offices, whether it is Metro police offices, local traffic, national traffic or the security clusters, but in particular the diplomatic policing, Interpol offices, external deploy offices in peace keeping missions and offices deployed abroad to foreign embassies.



One of Salga’s immediate responses is to hold a national symposium on alternative technological innovation for the protection of infrastructure. Hon House Chairperson, that is scheduled for 15 September 2021. The symposium is aimed at enhancing public private partnership and fostering interagency co-operation, collaboration and communication to any threat to critical infrastructure at local, provincial and national level.



The situation in South Africa highlighted the lack of capacity at local government level to respond to multiple threats such as a large scale looting as we have seen the past couple of weeks. Police stations did not have the man power or the logistical resources to respond to ongoing threats.



Hon House Chairperson, in some parts of South Africa, the POP’s have to travel 50 to 100 kilometres to respond to some of these instances. By the time they arrive, the damage is



done. The symposium also aims to explore innovative solutions to reduce risk and address threat to critical infrastructure where innovative solutions can be multiplied.



The South African Local Government Association is happy to announce that we already received positive responses to invitations to the symposium and I am just going to mention a few of those who have already reserved and who are some of our partners in the sphere. The first one is the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency also knows as MISA, the South African Police Service, the Private Security Regulatory Authority, the Institute of Security Studies, the University of Johannesburg, the University of South Africa, the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, Huawei, the technological companies and NEC Axen.



Hon House Chairperson, Salga continues to support the Covid-19 vaccination programme and has encouraged all stakeholders to support the vaccination programmes and the awareness programmes are ongoing. We, as Salga, are optimistic that the symposium will ignite further discussion and cohesion that will stimulate additional responses to assist with the recovery of South Africa.



Hon House Chairperson, in conclusion, this incident has amputated South Africans trust in our security cluster. Our citizens no longer feel safe. It is the task of every one of us on this platform to make sure that we focus on regaining public and community confidence and safety, in particular, in our security and intelligence agencies. We must initiate programmes that ensure that the communities feel safe again and the rebuilding of the nation and so that confidence can be restored.



We must ensure that South African law enforcement agencies are trained and properly equipped with the necessary resources to respond to multiple threats that has hit us at a sensitive period. Lastly, we must acknowledge the nexus between safety, security and the economic stability of our country. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W NGWENYA): The next speaker is the hon Du Toit from the FF Plus. Hon Du Toit? Hon Du Toit?



It seems the hon Du Toit is not in the House. Hon Du Toit? Hon members, I will continue with the speakers because hon Du Toit is not responding. The next speaker is hon N M LERULE – Limpopo MEC – Transport and Community Safety.



Ms M M LERULE (Limpopo: MEC – Transport & Community Safety): Thank you very much, House Chair for the opportunity and the time for the Limpopo also to partake and debate. Let me take this opportunity to greet the leadership and hon members of the NCOP, the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson and all members. Let me also briefly greet the Ministers, Deputy Ministers, and my colleagues in all attendance. Hon House Chair, the unabated looting that we saw in July, indeed, destabilised our economy and brought fear and it was spread across the provinces. Therefore, in Limpopo the government, the traditional leadership and the business people, amongst others, played a very important role to discourage the looting. We saw an antilooting campaign that was led by our hon Premier Stan Mathabatha who together with the SA Police Service, SAPS, and the National Taxi Council visited shopping complexes in Dennilton which was one of the areas where there were allegations of the attacks, and also Phalaborwa area



which was also on a seriously high alert where there was always threats that there are people from other provinces that will enter through these areas. We saw the premier and SAPS during this time joining hands and visiting areas where community members assured government that they will never allow destruction of property under their watch.



The police and all other state security agencies in the province were on high alert to attend to any form of violence. I’m happy, House Chair, that despite all the threats and anxiety, Limpopo did not have a single incident of looting.

What happened was just pure sarcasm and the perpetrators were arrested. The taxi industry stood side by side with the government and called for unity and calm in the height of violence. We must commend the leadership of the taxi industry who in their wisdom chose to rise and defend their gains and our gains. Their argument was that if they allow the looting who will they carry and ferry to the shopping malls because they would have closed down. The human chains that surrounded our institutions when we were vulnerable have given courage and hope for us to be able to continue to build a better Limpopo and join all others to build a better South Africa for all. The human chain was formed by the different stakeholders from the churches to the Community Policing Forums, to the Community Safety Forums, to our young people that are participating in the ... [Inaudible.] ... to also all the rural forums that are there in terms of the Security Cluster and we want to still confirm that as a province and as a department we are going to continue our relationship with those stakeholders.



Hon House Chair, the looting has left many of our black people without jobs, especially those working in retail. Majority of the people working in the economic hub of the country are migrant labourers and in Limpopo we account for higher number of migrant labourers and even from other provinces. The pain and strain of losing their source of income was felt beyond the borders of Gauteng and Kwazulu-Natal. These are men and women who relied on their jobs to fend for their families back at home. The little that they earned helped to put food on the table and to send their children to school. We know that currently, it is, indeed, a high percentage of people out on the streets looking for jobs. The numbers rose due to coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, but with the recently



looting it worsened the situation and, amongst others, we are not spared as Limpopo. Therefore, we want to suggest and also support that the introduction of the incentives to the people with skills that wants to venture into businesses should be supported so that then we can be able to stimulate the rural economy as it has been said. This will surely burden our government, but if incentives are introduced we will see more people coming out to be able to survive.



House Chairperson and hon members, you will agree with me that the events that unfolded in July have been the worst spectacle since the dawn of our democracy. The looting spree that we saw posed a serious risk not only to us as citizens, but to our fragile economy. It will, indeed, take time to recover from the setbacks we suffered, but also in Limpopo because there was no ... [Inaudible.] ... activity that were happening we want to still say thank you for the Security Cluster and, indeed, to our communities.



We still say, hon House Chair, the looting did not only result in properties reduced to ashes, but we lost many lives and also with us accounting to most of the migrant labourers we have suffered as well. We must at all times condemn public violence in our areas and pave a way for a dialogue to resolve challenges. This will go a long way in avoiding the scenes that made headlines in all the media streams and as Tata Mandela would have wanted to say that we always have to opt for a peaceful engagement even during the most difficult and taxing political period in our history. We cannot let the guard down by allowing foreign tendencies to come and reverse our gains of democracy.



Therefore, our own fellow African countries, hon House Chair, look at South Africa to be the model. As Limpopo we border with other countries through the Beitbridge and we saw that we were seriously affected. The looting spree in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal were saw us closing the highways connect us and the other provinces and because of that we had impact on our economy. The delivery of essential services to the province like ours and the entire Southern African Development Community, SADC, through the Beitbridge and Groblersbridge were also affected through the disruption. However, House Chair, that has motivated us that as a province we are now looking at options of saying that we cannot always transport our goods by roads, we have come now with innovative measures and we have started discussions to look at options of transporting our goods even through rail and also through air because the looting actually taught us to say that when you only have one mode of transport relying on you to transport your goods we suffered a lot.



The safety of our people was a concern because you’ll remember that when we were on high alert we were not able to identify the instigators on time. However, where you identify them you’ll find that social media has already alerted them before you can even arrive. Therefore, the entire country was gripped



with fear when this unpleasant situation happens. Hon House Chair, let me also salute the President of our country for his decisive leadership under the difficult period. And I think one of my colleagues has already alluded to say that our hon Ministers together with the MECs and the provincial commissioners we were always on high alert to be able to make sure that the stable country is actually delivered and all the people feel safe.



On Sunday, hon House Chair, we woke up to threats of yet another violent shutdown protest. I’m pleased by the vigilant leadership of SAPS that was visible in most of the strategic areas, well-equipped to act to protect our citizens. This must come as a wake-up call that the instigators are still hard at work to ensure that they achieve their sinister motives. Our intelligence services were quick to be able to advise us on what to do. Therefore, we want to say that the police must make sure that they leave no stone unturned in pursuit of the instigators.



House Chairperson, as I move towards conclusion, it is the month of August where we are celebrating women, let me take this opportunity to thank our women in blue, and all the women in uniform in our Security Cluster, and our female SA National



Defence Force, SANDF, members deployed to various parts of the country to patrol the streets of our country. The country is, indeed, safe in your hands. Therefore, I want to say to all these women in uniform, I have no doubt that you are equal to the task. I also want to commend all the other police officers and colleagues for affording the women support when they are working with them. Let’s remain vigilant and continue to do the good work that you have been doing. And I want to say that let’s continue amongst ourselves as the Security Cluster and as members of the country and us in Limpopo and anywhere in South Africa to go out and mobilise people to go and vaccinate so that when we do compliance on our roads we are safe as the members that are always in the public. Malibongwe! House Chair, thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon member. The next speaker is hon Zizi Kodwa, the Deputy Minister of State Security. Over to you, hon Kodwa.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: A spy himself.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, House Chair and the entire leadership of the NCOP, the Ministers, Deputy Ministers, delegates and MECs, ladies and



gentlemen, let me take this opportunity to thank this honourable House for initiating a debate and conversation about peace, stability and rebuilding of our country beyond the recent public violence, looting and destruction of property.



The Constitution of the republic provides that:



National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life.



It is clear from this and the Constitution of the republic that national security is a critical component of our democratic society and our constitutional architecture. The Constitution of the republic further enjoins us as public representatives to be accountable to our citizens and such a platform today, presents us an opportunity to exercise this constitutional obligation and further contribute to the enhancement of the discourse on national security.



While this debate on matters of national security was triggered by the events of July 2021, this has presented us



with an opportunity to open a product debate on what constitute national security, including national interest. We must do so collectively as government and citizens because as we said before, national security is a patriotic duty and a responsibility of the state, as well as the citizens of the republic.



The debate also takes place at a critical time on our nation’s calendar, where we recognise the role of women in the development and the ... [Inaudible.] ... of our society. As part of our conversation today, we must in equal measure, condemn in the strongest terms incidents of gender-based violence, which in its own threatens our national security as it violates women’s rights to live in safer communities.



The unacceptable scenes of violence, looting and distraction of infrastructure as observed in July 2021, and the continued acts of gender-based violence, continues to have a negative impact on the moral fibre of our society. The senseless killing of a female student at the University of Fort Hare, including many other women who have suffered in the hands of men of our country, must be eradicated with sheer determination.



House Chairperson and the leadership, let me be clear from the onset that what happened in July in the provinces of Gauteng, in particular and KwaZulu-Natal, is unacceptable and should never happen again in our democracy. We are aware that the incarceration of former President Zuma was used as a scapegoat by the instigators of this violence to undermine the rule of law and the integrity of the Constitution.



Our intelligence has revealed that the arrest of former President Zuma was not a drive of this conduct, but an exploited event to trigger instability in the country. We know now that these events were not isolated incidents, but a well- co-ordinated and a planned attempt to cripple the state and the disruption of infrastructure. We can say so because the other various events of a similar nature that had been planned but did not succeed because this time around we were better prepared.



Hon members would have seen how the same instigators organising for what they call national shutdown for our country. For example, two days ago on the 23 August 2021, and over the long weekend of 9 August 2021 respectively, attempts to subject the state were in motion, both those attempts failed because South Africans refused that there are genuine



grievances such as high rate of unemployment, poverty and inequality should be used to advance various agendas.



The issue of unemployment particularly that of our youth, issues of poverty, inequality, must be addressed as a matter of urgency. As part of our economic recovery and reconstruction plan, the rebuilding project will signify nothing if it does not create conditions of an inclusive economy and in particular, the empowerment of our youth.



The focus should be skills development, entrepreneurship, development of rural and township economies, innovation and technology, as well as research and development. If these are not collectively addressed by both the public and private sector, the youth will continue to be exploited by opportunistic elements as seen during the failed interaction and also be used to influence violence service delivery protests across our country.



The July 2021 incident has given us an urgent and intelligence service generally, an opportunity to open a conversation about the limitations that are brought about by our current mandate and the urgency in dealing with future ... [Inaudible.] ...

The agency as a chief risk advisor to the state, the



intelligence service has a constitutional mandate to monitor this socioeconomic issues to forewarn the government and the state. Maybe we should ask a difficult question at this stage. Whether it is enough for the intelligence service in a modern era to simply forewarn?



We must also address the critical issue of capacity, not only in the agency, but also in the security cluster. Over the past few years, the security cluster has been subjected to budget cuts, which has impacted negatively on our capacity to protect the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of the republic. Most importantly, to ensure that South Africans feel and are safe.



If we want to realise the real economic development, foreign investment and safety of our citizens, in particular, women and children, we have to invest in our national security establishment. We recognise that ensuring national security comes with a responsibility, one that requires of us security establishments to approach the highest level of integrity.



The challenges of budget cuts on security establishments are not unique in a South African context. However, in addressing



his country men and women, the US Congressman Sanford Bishop, warned against such decisions by profoundly stating that:



Do not compromise on national security for purely budgetary reasons. The world is dangerous, and we must always be prepared for anything that might threaten our national interests and security.



National security is a fortitude for development in any country. The worst a country can experience with a poorly equipped security apparatus, is a state of anarchy and chaos, where criminals run the affairs of the state, as you have seen in some countries, like in America.



By the same token hon members and House Chair, the failures of the economy compounded by the advent of COVID-19 pandemic, slow economic growth and recent public violent outbreak, poses a threat to national security.



Despite the capacity constraints, the establishment of National Security Council is an important step towards improvement of intelligence correlation and collaboration. Some of the responsibilities of the National Security Council include amongst others, co-ordination of work of security



services, law enforcement agencies and related organs of state to ensure national security, receiving co-ordinated integrated intelligent assessment from the national security structures of the republic.



The National Security Council is also responsible to approve the National Security Strategy, the National Intelligence Estimates, NIEs, the National Intelligence Priorities, NIPs, the national security policing, to give effect and expression to the governance of new overarch architecture of the republic.



The recent decision to reconfigure state security to the Presidency seeks to further strengthen the intelligence correlation and collaboration. This will address the challenges of security establishment working in silos.



The devastating impact of July events have caused our country dearly. People have lost their lives unnecessary, critical economic infrastructure was destroyed, supply chain systems were destroyed, jobs and livelihood were lost, investor confidence went to an all-time low and our project of building a united nation was compromised and as racial fault lines



began to emerge and were exploited, and our bilateral with our neighbours were affected.



The impact of the above will be felt for a long time to come. Given the fact that our country was recovering from a slow economic growth, coupled with the impact of COVID-19, this will not assist in addressing the sources of instability which is ... [Inaudible.] ... poverty, unemployment and inequality. Going forward, in avoiding violence, looting and public disorder, in all protests in the country, including service delivery protests, we need to build what is referred to as a responsible citizenship.



This concept, amongst others, involves all citizens, not only in political developments in their areas, but in the management an application of security. Citizenship is part and parcel of their local security, not when crime is committed, but holistically ranging from environment, substance abuse, hate crimes, protection of all infrastructure and investment in their areas. This mind shift in our societies will require everyone to get involved, including supporting and participating in the finalisation of the drafting of National Security Strategy as well as the national security policing.



Therefore, in order to move beyond public violence and looting, different role players need to work together for a process of reconstruction to succeed. A government on its own cannot achieve a goal of peace and reconstruction if the citizens and the private sector are not involved actively.



In the process, the State Security Agency remains relevant to guide against those who engage in unconstitutional activities, against the government, to undermine reconstruction. The implementation of the national programme to promote social cohesion as envisaged on the Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, priorities has never been this urgent.



The creation of opportunities for our people, inclusion of the economy and redress by building capacities and capabilities to reduce inequalities, are the key components of national security. It is also important to ensure that there is peaceful coexistence, harmony and prosperity amongst all citizens, to achieve a better life for all our people. I thank you very much Chairperson for the opportunity.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Hon members, allow me to invite the House



Chairperson, J Nyambi, to take over on numbers eight, on hon M E Nchabeleng.



Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon House Chairperson, let me greet the hon Chairperson of the NCOP and the two Izimbokodo who are presiding on this sitting, Mme Locas and Mme Ngwenya and all the women of South Africa during this Women’s Month, all the Ministers and all the members of the executive, both in the provinces and national. Thank you.



The social unrests witnessed in the month of July, have exacerbated the socioeconomic challenges we face as a country. The country and the world are still in the middle of a fight against the COVID-19 pandemic. The economic forecast indicated that the economy will contract by 7%.



The unrests in some parts of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng provinces have worsened the situation. The unrests which the President described as and I quote, “Acts of public violence of a kind realised in the history of our democracy.” have affected our economy severely. We reiterate the condemnation of the unrests by the ANC as it said in its National Executive Committee, NEC, statement that and I quote:



The ANC condemns these acts without reservation. We support the government with its efforts to strengthening its response and take harsher measures against this rioting, looting and destruction of property.



The KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng corridor is very critical for the South African economy and the rest of the Southern African region. Many trucks could not deliver their cargo in time to their destinations and as such derailed the economic activities.



The unrests have disrupted our national programme of vaccination of our people. Thus adding more burden to the nation which is already in the middle of a pandemic.



The country is implementing the economic reconstruction and recovery plan, aimed at growing our economy following the devastations caused by the pandemic. The unrests have obviously diverted our national focus on rebuilding our economy to the reconstruction of damaged properties reversing the impacts of those distractions. Hence the NEC in its statement correctly observed that and I quote:



The violence in parts of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng is having damaging effects on the economy and livelihoods. As a number of business organisations registered their concerns with the widespread vandalism and distraction.



It would obviously take time to rebuild property damaged as a result of the unrests. The main effect of the unrests on the economy would be felt in months to come.



Hon members, just yesterday Statistics SA published its Quarterly Labour Force Survey, QLFS, which indicated that and I quote:



The official unemployment rate increased by 1,8% from 32,6% in the first quarter of 2021, to 34,4% in the second quarter of 2021. The highest since the start of the QLFS between 2008. All these facts paint an undesirable picture of our socioeconomic challenges.



As we have said earlier, the unrests took different forms and manifestations. There were observable acts of organised criminality which target ATMs, target ammunition in the Durban



harbour and of course the distraction of many other strategic properties in the province.



The manifestation of the unrests also took a racial character as people were profiled racially and attacked in parts of Phoenix and Verulam. Many people lost their lives in these incidents of racial profiling.



The President when he addressed the nation on 12 July this year, correctly assured all South Africans that and I quote:



Our Constitution guarantees the right of every person to protest, to organise to engage in free expression and free association.



Chair, the right to protest, to organise and to engage in free expression and free association, should be exercised in the parameters of the law. It means that there is an obligation on those who plan to protest to seek the permission and are obliged to conduct their protest in a peaceful manner.



The President and the government made initial assessment of the unrests as they unfolded and decided to deploy 2 500 members of the SA National Defence Force to support the



operation of the SA Police Service on the ground. It became clear with time, that more boots would be needed on the ground as the situation was getting out of control. The President authorised the further deployment of the members of the SA National Defence Force resulting with the full deployment of

25 000 soldiers.



This deployment of the members of the SA National Defence Force, made an immediate impact on the ground and the unrests quelled down as soon as the soldiers arrived.



There may be those who argue that the deployment of the SA National Defence Force came a bit late. The argument does not appreciate the processes and procedures which must be followed when deploying members of the Defence Force. We are in agreement with an analysis which says that the situation could have been worse had the Police use maximum force to quell the unrests. Also, with the presence of the SA National Defence Force, many planned lootings were foiled and as such properties and jobs were saved.



As the President said that and I quote, “There is a silver lining at every crisis.”



We have witnessed a patriotic act by South Africans young and old, standing up to declare that no looting and damage to property will be done in our name. These patriots protected malls and shops in their areas very successfully. Lives were saved in the process. We commend these acts of responsible citizenry displayed by our compatriots to stop the distraction of property and thus the economy and livelihoods.



When South Africans join hands with the law enforcement agencies, they were in essence acting consistently with what the National Development Plan refers to when it outlines the integrated approach to build safety.



We are also encouraged by the acts of communities, civil society organisations, the taxi industry, who also stood up and be counted against the unrests.



The President affirmed these heroic acts by communities when he said after visiting some affected areas in KwaZulu-Natal and I quote:



I saw that determination in action that today as I walked through the streets of eThekwini. I saw people cleaning up the streets, rebuilding their



lives standing together, united in their diversity. Young and old, men and women, black and white. They were grateful for the support of the security forces and made it clear to me that they stand united and will work with government to restore stability.



For its part, the ANC, NEC, statement of the 11 July called on religious leaders, trade unions, civil society and all concerned South Africans to join us in condemning criminality, looting and wanton distraction of livelihoods.



There are many lessons which we should derived from these unrests as it relates to how we anticipated, how we responded and how do we mitigate incidents against these acts like these from happening in the future. Chair, of critical important is to strengthen the co-ordination of our security apparatus in how they plan and respond to unrests.



We also have to have a serious engagement regarding the matter which has been with us for some time. The matter of the budgetary constraints of the Security Cluster and I repeat it again Chairperson. This is a great worry. The budget constraints impact on the capacity of our law enforcement agencies to prepare and respond to a national stability.



From now henceforth, we will prioritise the turning around plans of the Security Cluster in general on how they put the lessons they have learned in the unrests into implementable programmes. In the end we will through our oversight role ensure that the events of July 2021 do not repeat themselves in our country. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Nchabeleng. Hon members allow me to go back again and invite the hon Du Toit. I am now told he is fine in terms of connection. Hon Du Toit.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chairperson, fear, smoke and explosions restricted access chaos and anarchy. Is this a new face of South Africa? This is the image that was portrait to the international arena in July this year. This is the image of the roaring fire that ensues itself the image of the ANC.



During this debate the ANC Members of Parliament, MPs, said that the social device and inequalities was the reason for the recent unrests in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. Some say that the racial tension is still prevailing and it is just the matter of time before the proverbial pot boils over again. Is this absurd Chair, or is it true? South Africa cannot afford to



fall into anarchy and our economy will not survive such an event.



Who is stirring this pot of hate? Who is continuously poking the in framed ulcer of social divide and inequality by reckless political statements to whip up emotional reaction that might erupt? Who wants to radically transform the economy through legislational revolt? Who has up to now provided the financial aid to businesses in need on the basis of race suffocating the economy and contributing to record high unemployment rate? Chair, who could this be? Could it be the governing party’s deployees that deliberately did not act on intelligence’s who could have prevented such unrests? Could it be the governing party that is so power hungry and self- centred that it would sacrifice the future of million South Africans by anarchy and financial ruin? What has the ANC gained from this other than violating South Africans by buying votes for R350 a vote, and disguising it as a social relief grants?



We know dressing the gesture as showing the poor that we as government care. You are creating poverty to keep the country dependent on grants and handouts creating more supporters.





Een van die mees basiese menseregte is die reg op lewe. Dit is roekeloos om jouself nie te verdedig nie. Hierdie klink soos ’n aanhaling uit die Suid-Afrikaanse Grondwet maar dit is nie. Dit was die woorde van die berigte Minister van Polisie, Bheki Cele, tydens ’n huldeblyk aan ’n vermoorde polisielid. Hierdie is die Minister wat die ontwapening van die burgery voorstaan; die Minister wat in een asem vrae by die burgery, sekuriteitsmaatskappye en die polisiediens moet bystaan ten spyte daarvan dat Minister Cele met sy horde lyfwagte eers Maandag, 19 Julie 2021 die geplunderde areas besoek het toe die as reeds koud op die grond was. Dalk was hy op die strand besig om die dra van maskers deur kinders te polisieer.

Hierdie is die Minister wat privaat wapenbesit so onderdruk dat die vermoede kan ontstaan dat hy, moontlik deur sy nalating om toe te sien dat vuurwapen lisensieaansoeke tydig verwerk word, medepligtig kan wees in die subtiele ontwapening van die burgery as gevolg van administratiewe rompslomp. Ons sal onsself beskerm. Ons mag dit doen. Dit is ons reg.





Through you Chair, Minister, with respect: How do you sleep at night? How can you have a clear conscience when you yourself are protected by a small battalion and South Africans are left



to fend for themselves? How do you explain the fact that calls for Police assistance during the unrests fell on deaf ears? In most instances little to no assistance was given.



Private security companies are good enough to let their employees put their lives on the line, protecting lives and livelihoods, yet you educate through proposed legislation to disarm them. The economy is on its knees as a result of your inability to win the fight against crime. Or is it just a matter of selective policing with you at the helm.



Minister, catchers of redemption or retribution might blare your vision cloud the mind skewed political ideologies that only benefit the corrupt and cripple your cause. Some South Africans are on their knees. Do not be flattered by this Minister thinking that our hope is tarnished that we as a country will just roll over and let you have your way with.



Our commander is still in control. We have more than a mere glamour of hope, in spite of the current state of affairs and the ANC’s continuous onslaught, we do not need soldiers, Minister. We have warriors. There is a difference. A soldier is paid someone else’s battles and a warrior not. The prayer



warriors in South Africa are on their knees, ready. God will strengthen us, lift them up when He sees fit.



In conclusion Chair, we will not lose hope. The day will come when the fire that your organisation created will consume itself. Raise you head, Minister. You have made an impression on the country. You, will be remembered as yet another stain of the ANC’s legacy. You failed. Thank you, Chair.



Mr R ALLEN (Western Cape: Chairperson – Standing Committee on Community Safety): Chairperson of the NCOP, members of the NCOP and fellow South Africans, in the 17th century Thomas Hobbes made his mark on modern political philosophy through an influential formulation of social contract theory.



Hobbes begins by asking us to imagine a pre-societal state of nature in which there is no government, no law, no society. In such a state of nature, individual people enjoy absolute freedom and decide for themselves how to act and live their lives. Freedom is absolute because there is no government and no law to deter you from committing any crimes. In fact, there is no such thing as a crime in the state of nature!



At first glance, Chairperson, we might think that such a state of nature in which each exercises perfect freedom, is desirable. But in the state of nature there are major issues and problems: There is no government to protect the weak and the vulnerable from the unjust actions of stronger individuals.



In the state of nature, it is true then that each may decide for himself or herself, but it is also, as the saying goes, every man for himself. Life in the state of nature without government and society is marred by fear and constant threat of danger and violence. In the words of Hobbes himself, in the state of nature “the life of man [is] solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short”.



Hobbes therefore argues that in order to avoid a life that is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”, human beings in a state of nature agree to come together and trade some of their absolute freedom in exchange for protection from an authority such as a government. In this way, the laws of a society obtain their force. Citizens follow the laws of a society because by doing so, they are able to receive protection from an unjust society. This, according to Hobbes, is the basis of



society; and this is the fundamental reasoning forming the foundation of social contract theory.



Chairperson, I was reminded of all of this in preparing for today because the kind of unrest and protest action that we have seen in our country in Kwa-Zulu Natal and in parts of Gauteng, is the kind of unrest which targets the foundations of our social contract and threatens to send us back into a state of nature. Let the events of July 2021 stand as a reminder of all what could go wrong and what is at stake!



A fundamental task of any government is to protect its citizens. As we have just said here today, a government derives its authority on the basis of the order and protection it provides to citizens.



Chairperson, I am therefore happy to report that the Western Cape government, under the leadership of Premier Alan Winde and Minister Albert Fritz, ensured the protection of its citizens from unrest and protest action here in the Western Cape. The Western Cape government took its responsibility seriously to the extreme!



Chairperson, from the outset, the Western Cape government took the approach of integrating the operational processes, resources, competencies, capabilities and intelligence of the SA Police Service with Law Enforcement, Traffic and Metro Police. The SAPS Provincial Command Centre serves as the overarching command structure from where provincial coordination is done, with Cluster Operational Command Centres and the Traffic Management Centre providing situational reports to the Provincial Command Centre.



The need for proactive, visible policing proved to be crucial, and the SAPS ensured with Law Enforcement that this was conducted by visible patrols in and around malls; on primary and secondary routes; visiting national key points and petrol stations; monitoring taxi ranks, reservoirs, the Koeberg substations, distribution centres, ports of entry, courts and prisons. We worked together because we knew what was expected.



SAPS also ensured the arrests of suspects, as well as the confiscation of illegal firearms, dangerous weapons, stolen items and business burglary implements. For this purpose, Chairperson, visible policing was so key and the SAPS together with Law Enforcement supported by the City of Cape Town Metro Police, Law Enforcement, Traffic and Law Enforcement



Advancement, Lea Programme, which is rolled out by the Department of Community Safety were key to averting an unrest situation as we have seen in Gauteng provincial and KwaZulu- Natal.



We must also note the contributions of emergency medical services; accredited neighbourhood watches at local, community level; and private security companies, particularly in terms of their CCTV infrastructure. Chair, we’ve also seen the Provincial Traffic recalled and mobilised officers from rest days to further bolster the number of officers available for deployment because we know that in the Western Cape there is under-resourcing of SAPS. Hence, the Western Cape government had to ensure that not only more boots on the ground, but we ensured that we mobilised communities effectively as well.



Chairperson, crucial to the Western Cape government’s proactivity which ensured that it would be ready to respond to any unrest and protest action, are the many coordinating networks bringing all the various institutions and stakeholders together. This did not happen just by chance. It was the result of intentional work by different individuals, those in the Western Cape government and those within the SA Police Service.



And so, there were individual incidents throughout the period in question which could have snowballed into the kind of largescale public violence which would have threatened our social pact. Chairperson, in each instance though, whether it was communications professionals fighting against misinformation; SAPS responding to acts of criminality; or a group of gogos in a community who belonged to a local neighbourhood watch and who woke up early in the morning to gather around and protect a local shopping mall, all played a role. All brought their part in order to avert such an incident.



Let it therefore be said that public unrest and violence was averted in the Western Cape due to the proactive measures taken by the Western Cape government.



Chairperson, I would however fail my oversight obligation if I do not flag the risk of police under-resourcing. The scenes of KZN and Gauteng during the days of unrest could be attributed to the lack of appropriate capacitation of the safety services. In this instance, it is the role of Public Order Policing Unit to maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold the and enforce the law.



Public unrest is almost a daily occurrence across the country and we are not sufficiently prepared as replies to questions that are directed to the SA Police Service reveal serious under-resourcing in personnel and equipment in relation to the needs in South Africa.



In order for Public Order Policing Service, Pops to maintain public order intelligence-driven crime combatting and prevention operations, additional Pops members are needed to supplement a wider set of policing measures and the gathering of credible intelligence, so that SAPS can ultimately play their role because under-resourcing affects SAPS to a large extent and the lives of men and women who are doing amazing work are further put at risk because of national incompetence.



At the same time, Chairperson, we have also gathered here today to look beyond the public violence which took place in July. Our social contract may have survived the month of July, but that doesn’t mean that there are no other threats approaching. We see from reports more and more public violence, looting and destruction of property. We therefore have to remain vigilant.



The month of July also saw significant taxi violence in the Western Cape. Under the leadership of provincial Minister Daylin Mitchell, things have settled down significantly. But there is still work to be done in bringing affordable, reliable and safe transport to our citizens.



And the major priority here in the Western Cape Government remains the successful execution of its provincial Safety Plan, which aims to halve the murder rate within the next 10 years. Through greater law enforcement capacity and targeted violence-prevention initiatives, the province is determined to reduce crime and violence so that citizens can live in peace and stability.



Chairperson, our citizens are entitled to peace and stability. Our children are entitled to going to netball practices without having to worry about being shot by a stray bullet.

Our young people are entitled to a viable career path that does not involve joining a gang or selling drugs.



Our citizens are entitled to living a life that is not “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” Our citizens have given us the authority that we, as the government here in the



Western cape in exchange for peace and stability and we dare not fail them!



We call on national government to ensure that we don’t rely on the notion that due to budgetary cuts all that there is, is a holiday as the national Minister of Police indicated. There was a crime holiday. His excuse flies in the face of people who are living in fear in most parts of our country. Hence, we need to ensure that better services are delivered but more importantly, that we grow our economy and create safer spaces so that we can all thrive in a society, a South Africa that we all want our children and grandchildren to live in one day.



So, we call on you, the national Minister of Police to do your job. Thank you.





the session, thank you. It’s a little bit late in the day, and I must say that I am a little bit disappointed. I went to the US about 10 to 14 days after the 911, and the only time I admired the USA was what I saw in that period after the disaster. It was a coming together of the Americans, despite their differences and despite their ongoing fights. On a national interest matter, they came together and they said



that, we face a common enemy, and that is a threat to the constitutionality and the democracy that was the state of the United States of America.



I put that after 25 or 27 years of democracy. The first threat against our democracy and our Constitution, that parties in our Parliament across the country would come together and saying, we are facing a common threat, and this time, it cannot be done, and it cannot be allowed, because actually, that is what the men and women we charge in the last street has done in the last few weeks. They have stood up, not because they belong to a party or a racial group, but they stood up because they understood that it was important to defend the Republic of South Africa.



Now, we’ve got one police service in South Africa. We do have provinces and we do have federal tendencies within the Constitution, but it is important for us to always remember that, you cannot define security of a country if you take a provincial posture. We, those of us who felt the boot of apartheid, went all out to say that, for us, security is not about the state, people or a tribe. For us, security is about us, the ordinary people. It is about getting clean water,



security of electricity across the board, and it was about equal education across the board.



It was also about quality health services that would make me feel equal to everybody else. That is what we must defend in this current juncture. Chairperson, I think that what we need to do, is to go back and to relook at who we are. I thought hon Brauteseth was taking us there, when he reminded us about the social contract. I thought that MEC Tikane, when she said that, now we must locate the security and we must see a family participating within our definition of security in this country.



Somebody else said that, it is the amount of will that matters. Therefore, there is no way you define security in South Africa without taking security of women, children and everybody else at this juncture. So, this debate, about what we have witnessed in the last few weeks, must begin to answer the questions, who are we? Are we going to agree and to allow that which has happened to continue? Yesterday in the Chamber of the National Assembly I said, that their colour and political affiliation doesn’t matter. Illegality and criminality is the same, and we must treat it the same way.



If my daughter is found to be looting, if my daughter is found to be instigating this democratically elected government, my daughter, my flesh and blood, must face the wrath of the South African law. It can’t be that we will be saying this and that. Now, the hon Ryder says that, people are so tired because they have been failed health wise. Yes, we did not have health, and yes maybe we did not have the quality of health services to the whole lot of millions of people. It has been diluted because now it has to carry a lot of millions of people of equal.



Yes, now, pregnant women must remember that they get free health services, and yes, my child and Van der Merwe’s child are equal in the schools. So, we must value this, and we must not define ourselves outside this equality that we have really fought for. Also, I am saying that I am disappointed because, you see, these people who came together, who are faceless, and they are faceless because they have not come out to identify themselves broadly, and to give their course a name. They have used the former President as an excuse. Therefore, these criminal elements must be treated as to what they are.



They are criminals and they are trisoners. Therefore, we must make sure that when we deploy defence, which we must not see



defence deployed consistently and regularly with the police, because we are not trained to do that. When we deploy them, it is because they are in support of the police, and I might want to remind you Mr Allen that, not long ago, we deployed the defence force in support of the police to deal with the gangsters in this Province of the Western Cape. So, we must not, when it suits us, forget the weaknesses that we have.



We must always look at ourselves as the chain that strengthen the democracy throughout this country. So, I would honestly say that, we have degenerated the bait because we should be holding hands as provinces and as national government to say that, there is a threat, and how do we deal with this threat? The defence is the first one to tell you that, over the years, we have lost almost 15 billion, and that affects the capacity and the ability of defence to really defend the Constitution of this country and the sovereignty of this country.



Now, the criminals attach the seaports, ferrying things which were imports largely into the economy of South Africa, but they did not just attack the South African economy, they attacked the regional economy. Last week when we were in Malawi, the head of states of the other countries were saying to President Ramaphosa that, what is happening in South Africa



is ... [Inaudible.] ... because, we rely on your seaports and your roads to sustain our economies.



So, this is not a small thing that we must bring home to bicker about, it is something that it must make us say, 25 years with hat, relative political freedom, association, people could associate and say whatever. But when they start to hit directly without shame on the economy of this country, and when they tell us straight that they will remove this government by force, then we’ve got a problem, and it is not an ANC problem. It is a national problem that we must be faced up with.



Therefore, I must that, we must do what we can. For now, we have reduced the deployment of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, in support of the police, but we are still looking at all the important traffic arteries. We are still on standby for airlifts and air cover, we are still guarding the water and we are still watching the electrical installations of this country. We must make sure that we strengthen the hands of the youth who stood up and say that, it is not in our name.



They were not defending a party, but they were defending themselves, which is the right of a citizen to that, I will



defend that which is mine and the freedom which I worked for. I think that, if we do that, we can begin to say that, indeed the weaknesses that are there, and there are weaknesses there. Has the budget of the police been increased over the years?

No. Even the budget of the defence has been going down. Has the intelligence performed? I don’t know about the budget and I never knew.



We need to be hitting them as citizens hitting their own structures and not hitting them because we align them to a political party because there, we will lose the plot. Have they been performing? What has Parliament been doing about it? Have we been demanding the reports the way we should? So, for me, Chairperson, this debate is important. This debate must say to the South Africans that we are the representatives of the people and that we are being held accountable.



It must also say that we are asking the questions and we are demanding the right protection for our Constitution, for life and being in the country, so that we can then go back to that social contract and see whether we are failing ourselves and whether the people we have put in charge, are failing us. So, in the interim, we must uphold the law. It doesn’t matter who, and it doesn’t matter what the colours are. We must uphold the



law and make sure that people are protected. The SA National Defence Force will work when it is deployed, at the instruction of whoever in the police is in charge, whether it is in the Western Cape, the North West or KwaZulu-Natal.



They will work because they are deployed, not to look at party colours, but to look at the citizens of South Africa. They will work because they must also protect all the strategic installations of this country. So, Chairperson, I would say that I am disappointed with how we are ending this, and I think that we should be focusing on what we need to focus on, consolidating Team SA and consolidating support behind our own Constitution.



We need to strengthen the hands of the courts; we need to strengthen the hands of the citizens to make sure that the definition of security for the people by the people really comes to what we need. I thank you, Chairperson.





Mnu M BARA: Masibulele Mphathiswa ngengcaciso.






Greetings to the Chairperson of the NCOP, his deputy, the Ministers, the Deputy Ministers and members of the House. House Chair, in July 2021 we nearly witnessed a total collapse of our country. This happened under the watch of our Security Cluster and it continued unabated. It brought about many questions relating to our democracy and our security forces.



South African citizens broke out in panic not knowing their neighbourhoods would be the next to go up in flames. That was when some citizens took a decision that said, Not under their watch. If ordinary South Africans and saved the situation, this would have dire consequences for the whole country. It seems that no infrastructure was off limits as schools were looted and damaged or some burnt down completely in both KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.



For example, Sikhululiwe Secondary School in Elandskop, their administration and science classroom were burnt down. Items such as microwaves and laptops were looted while furniture and textbooks were completely burnt down. In Lifa-Ifa Secondary School in KwaThema in Gauteng, microwaves, wooden doors, kettles, magnetic chalkboards in six classrooms were stolen.

These are about two examples of looting and theft in our schools.



These are clear indications that this had nothing to do with hunger but thuggery that had to be dealt with by the police. Incidents of racism throughout KwaZulu-Natal also surfaced. We want to strongly condemn any racist opportunists who saw the opportunity to use the anarchy to drive racist agenda. We are a Rainbow Nation and we should be protecting each other. Those political leaders who are driving their racist narrative are exposing themselves for what they are with and fuelling the flames of anarchy.



The intelligence component of the Security Cluster seemingly failed to predict the chaos and destruction of ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Bara, you are muted. Can you unmute yourself?



Mr M BARA: I just did. Can you hear me now?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, continue.



Mr M BARA: The intelligence component of the Security Cluster seemingly failed to predict the chaos and destruction of large parts of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. This entire unrest posed questions around the intelligence structures in the two



provinces and by extension to national. It begs the question that how is it possible that nothing was picked up before the looting began and the damage was done especially in KwaZulu- Natal?



It is important that technology must be utilised to enhance intelligence gathering. The SA Police Service was slow and ineffective to stop looters that nearly brought two provinces to its knees. In Gauteng for example, members of the police service were seen live on television doing nothing while businesses were ripped apart and looted. Who can forget the pride of our President addressing the nation regarding the looting? In a different frame we saw the visuals of criminals looting the SA National Blood Service branch.



Of critical importance is to focus SAPS information gathering on social networks in conjunction with the live visuals in order to identify the instigators. Ordinary citizens had to stand up and protect their livelihoods across the two provinces. Residents of Pimville in Soweto, protected the Maponya Mall. The Vosloorus Centre was protected by taxi drivers against those who wanted to loot. We salute those who packed and loaded their trucks to assist those who had nothing



to eat from different provinces. Your efforts are commendable and that is what Ubuntu is all about.



It is critical that justice is done not only to looters and instigators but also those who fail in their constitutional duty to protect the citizens. There has to be consequences for the damage of lives and loss of livelihood. Whether this means revisiting the structures of our security and intelligence forces but something needs to be done. Those who are responsible for the chaos in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng must be brought to book.



We need to put our heads together and start to build our country. We need to look at what went wrong and correct it immediately. It is clear that the situation we found ourselves in could have been avoided. This blame falls directly on the feet of our national government. I thank you Chairperson.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thanks, hon House Chair, it’s already late in the afternoon, good afternoon colleagues. The July unrest has not only display House Chair the socioeconomic inequality in our society. It has reflected significant challenges facing our democracy dispensation. Challenges of poverty and increase



of unemployment in our community, contribute to the violence and the destruction of property.



House Chair, the right to protest is contained in the Bill of Rights House Chair. The exercise of this right should not infringed on the rights of others. The wanting looting and the destruction has also demonstrated how protests by community can be a haven of criminal activities which are largely organised.



House Chair, the July unrest created the conducive grounds for criminals and on retrospective to act of arson and looting were largely coordinated by criminals who have abused the concerns of the ordinary people and their vulnerability. The ANC House Chair, is unequivocally in its condemnation of the acts of criminal of wanting looting and destruction of properties. The government infrastructure and critical social services were destroyed and disrupted.



The task of the democratic government in creating a better life for all and equitable society necessitate the prioritisation of critical social services and basic service to ensure that we protect the right of the dignity of all.



This legacy House Chair, of apartheid and addressing inequality in our country requires us to protect our infrastructure and focus on expanding development to adhere to the imperative of the Freedom Charter of creating a better life for all and creating an equal opportunity. The destruction House Chair of property only serve to delay the process of development.



The impact of the unrest has crippled many of our people of their dignity and rights. The elders House Chair and the sick could not access health facility during the unrest, risking many lives and causing ... [Inaudible.] ... which could be avoided.



Critical private sector enterprises which provided health goods like pharmacies, were most targeted for destruction and looting. The impact of the unrest on transportation industry House Chair, and different value chain left the community without access to food and basic services and goods. Close to 70% to 80% of the food outlet throughout KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, were affected House Chair. People have to travel to the near towns and areas which had food reserved, in order to get basic goods for survival. This mainly impacted the poor who were left vulnerable.



With a high unemployment and growing poverty which has been exacerbated by the coronavirus pandemic. The fact of the matter is that people who have lost their livelihood through the loss of job and loss of economic opportunities. The current lives’ reality for thousands of South African workers who have lost their jobs is that the ability to provide for their households has been shuttered.



We should begin to ask ourselves a critical question as a society on the level of the national consciousness. This question speaks to social reproduction or socialisation House Chair. Our orientation towards public services and the economy should be understood and appreciated as a critical source of livelihood and creating a better life for all. What was observed House Chair, by the oversight visit of the selected committee in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal is devastating and it should concern all South African.



The number of schools which were destructed since the starting of the lockdown, is a major setback in addressing the challenges of school infrastructure in the country. Since the beginning of the lockdown in 2020, 1882 schools have been vandalised. The destruction during the violence in KZN and Gauteng where 137 schools and 11 schools respectively. The



oversight visit undertaken by the Select Committee on Education and Technology, Sports, Arts and Culture reports observed and revealed different types of criminalities, which let to vandalising.



Some of vandalising is caused by criminal syndicate which mostly targeted vulnerable equipments such as computers, water tanker and other school equipment. The other type are party crimes, which usually target food, copper sold to scrapyard, House Chair. The last category, is a vandalising by the community protest which usually led by the major destruction. It is critical House Chair to demyth the casual factor because it helps us to understand the problem and how to resolve it.



Another concern House Chair concerning the matter is the fact that most of the stolen goods have never been returned by the majority, no arrest has been made about it. Enhancing the security of the schools and encouraging the community in taking responsibility of the condition and safety in schools will be critical, House Chair.



The department should ensure that schools establish a functioning safety and security committees. We should also commend House Chair, the private sector ... [Inaudible.] ...



who provided support to the school. This is a critical area where companies cooperate social responsibility of the private business ... should be encouraged to support.



Hon members, hon House Chair, in the KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng offices which provided critical social services were impacted by the vandalising. As the Minister, comrade Bheki Cele alluded to and Mr Minister Modise has just also said about this matter, that we are really worried as to how this thing can happen in a democratic dispensation.



Offices of South African Social Security Agency, SASSA, and Department of Social Development have been impacted as well, which had led to difficulty in providing services to the nearby. The significant number of SASSA pay out point were destroyed, creating difficulty for grant recipients. This led to a loss of critical information in the Information Communication and Technologies, ICT, infrastructure.



What the people to our various community should appreciate, is the fact that House Chair, these public facilities and service delivery point exist to serve the communities in particular the poor and the vulnerable. We need House Chair, to begin to ensure that we have a national consciousness which values the



development of the country. Our people should be patriotic and at all times and contribute in creating a better society which improves the life condition of all.



House Chair, destroying our school infrastructure is to disadvantage the community and the children in the same community. Our community should protect their school in order to empower its residents. The destruction of pay point, negatively affect the elders and the poor. The challenge of long que in the collection of grant would be worsened in the affected area.



Despite this difficulties House Chair, it is important to place it on record that the ANC-led government has not been spectators to the unrest but our government has addressed many of the challenges of public facilities and social services.

Our government has demonstrated its resolve in ensuring that it restores the dignity of all South Africans.



The Department of Social Development in both provinces played a crucial role in providing social protection for the vulnerable. House Chair, through providing of the social relief of distress programme which provided food voucher and food parcel as food was scarce in areas affected by this



unrest. In areas where schools were vandalised they have largely experienced minimal damage as characterised in our observation.



Hon members, hon House Chair, we should commend and welcome the provincial department for responding to the urgent task of rebuilding and restoring our school infrastructure to a state that is conducive for teaching and learning. Out the schools that were gravely vandalised the department has restored over 80% of those schools, as we speak today House Chair.



The oversight visits also demonstrated the need for the sustainable food security system in rural areas ... [Interjection.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): As you conclude.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: House Chair, as I conclude, the recent unrest also opened deep scars of a legacy of segregation. Act of racism through banning Africans who are not resident in urban areas and attack reported in Phoenix, it has reversed the gains of the democracy. The democratic government House Chair in a particular ... [Interjection.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Nyambose.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: Yes, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you conclude?



Mr E M MTHETHWA: I am concluding House Chair, that South Africa have embraced process of building a democratic dispensation which restored the dignity of all South Africans. I thank you, House Chair.



Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Chairperson, after a very long day and listening to very many narratives quite difficult. But as expected the narratives from the opposition was really an electioneering and they were doing what the opposition should be doing, which is opposing. But in this instance, we had hoped that as South Africans, we would come together and come together united to solve a problem that exists for all South Africans.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: We are not going to solve your problems of factionalism within your party. You must solve your own problems.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokause, please!



Mr M DANGOR: To carry on with that particular position, Chairperson, the Security Cluster has introspected. The Security Cluster has come up with solutions as well, that they are going to take forward to look at as to how they were going to employ them. The one issue that the Security Cluster has, is the question of budgets and that is something that we, as the two Houses of Parliament, will need to address.



The Economic Cluster had actually put out plans to promote businesses that lost money, and that had suffered losses. I was part of that delegation led by Comrade Duma and Comrade Rayi, and actually provided hope. They did not go there and talk to the people, and the Economic Cluster actually went to provide hope to people, to say in this instance the state will assist in the following matter with SASRIA, DTIC, the National Employment Committee, and all of those committees would come and provide assistance. So, there was hope provided there. I think the Economic Sector did very well.



Chairperson, on the question of the national question and of promoting a nonracial, nonsexist democratic South Africa, it is all of South Africa’s input into that. In 1994, this was



our dream. Before 1994 the Freedom Charter was our dream. But I think, the dream needs to be realised by all of us working on the ground. All of us working together and all of us working jointly. The political differences can exist, but you don’t have to make those political differences turn those into an enemy kind of situation. But rather in a co-operative kind of situation, where we can actually realise that South Africa is going to go in a particular direction.



Now, this is not the first time that South Africa has faced a crisis. We faced the crisis in 1994, we overcame it. We faced crisis after that, maybe smaller, but we overcame it, because we could talk, talk, talk and not kill, kill, kill. This is the South Africa we know. This is the South Africa that we are used to, and this is the South Africa we can take forward. My appeal again, as team South Africa let us take things forward. As team South Africa, let us find resolutions to problems and if the opposition have got resolutions to problems, to please present them as such, and not to electioneer in the debate such as this. I thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Dangor.



Mr M BARA: Chairperson, order!



Ms M O MOKAUSE: It looks like you are sleeping, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That concludes the business of the day. I wish to thank the Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, special delegates and Salga representatives on this very important debate. Thank you.



Debate concluded.



The Council adjourned at 17:51.



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