Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 22 Jun 2021
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 22 JUNE 2021
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch video here: NCOP Plenary
The Council met at 10:00.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation
The Chairperson announced that the virtual sitting constituted a meeting of the National Council of Provinces.
VIRTUAL SITTING RULES
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to remind you that the virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. The place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town, where the seats of the National Council of Provinces are. Delegates in the virtual sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the
sitting of the National Council of Provinces. For the purposes of the quorum, all the delegates are logged on to the virtual platform and shall be considered to be present. Delegates must always switch on their videos. Delegates ensure that their microphones and gadgets are muted and must always remain muted. The interpretation facility is active. Any delegate wishing to speak must use the raise your hand function.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS PEACE AND SECURITY - CLUSTER 1B
Question 155:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson, my colleagues, Deputy Minister of State Security and Deputy Minister of the Department of International Relations AND Co- operation, hon members of the NCOP and permanent delegates.
Chairperson, in answering the question of the hon member, the answer is yes, the investigation on how the permanent residency of the mentioned people was obtained has been finalised, and yes, five officials have been suspended and are going through a disciplinary process. One of the officials took us to labour court in a bid to stop the process of the disciplinary committee, but the labour court dismissed the case. If I am not mistaken, it is two or three weeks ago. The
DC process is going to proceed in this case. Thank you very much.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you very much, Minister, for your clear response in this matter. In line with this question, hon Minister, I think you might be aware that there been numerous media reports these days that Prophet Bushiri and his wife have been in this country a few times since they violated their conditions of bail and fled the country.
Has the department looked into this matter and verified the accuracy and otherwise of these media reports? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, the general rule is that those who accuse must provide proof. The media reports which you are talking about, which emanated from The City Press ... they called me on Saturday before publishing their story and I told them that as far as we are concerned, we do not have any evidence of that.
Subsequent to the publishing of their story, I am sure you heard that the authority that is responsible in this regard, the Hawks, also issued a statement. Chairperson, it looks like
it is becoming common for the media to send the country on the merry-go-round to prove things that does not exist.
I may dare say that you are aware that the government is also being pushed to prove the birth of 10 babies who were never born. I am 100% sure that they were never born. But we are being asked to prove that they were born. How do you prove something that has never happened? Now, we are being called upon to prove that Bushiri came to the country three times. I don’t understand this type of journalism anymore where people who come with accusations cannot provide proof and say this is what happened here and there. This is the same story, as far as I am concerned, as the 10 babies who never existed and were never born, that much, I am 100% sure.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, maybe tongue in check, maybe the Bushiris came to South Africa again to look for those 10 babies that nobody can find.
Hon Minister, as it was said now, it emerged in the media that Sheppard Bushiri has returned to South Africa several times.
Whether that is true or not, needs to be investigated and the facts will prove to that effect whether it happened or not. We note that at this stage you deny this as having occurred. This
brings me the question, it we look the whole story surrounding the Bushiris and five people already suspended by your department, it is testimony to the shambles that are going on in your department. It brings me to the question that: Let’s say, for example, that it gets proven that the Bushiris did come back to South Africa, maybe on a false or second passport, whatever the means might be that they might have been able to come back to South Africa ... Noting your department’s mandate of regulating immigration to ensure security, that will be a big breach of that security if they did come back and left again and have not been arrested.
Would you agree that if that’s the case that it happened, that strong action needs to be taken and that it is the testimony of a poor managed department? Would you resign if that is proven, hon Minister? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Aucamp, your joke that maybe Bushiri came to look for the babies ... I want to tell you that even God won’t find those babies because they were never born. Even Prophet Bushiri cannot do anything like that.
On the issue that the department is in shambles on this issue of permanent residence and so on, I did not hide this matter
that there are problems. That’s why in the National Assembly I announced a team, which has already been working for three months led by the former Director-General in The Presidency, Dr Lubisi, to review all the applications of visas and permits that were issued since 2004. The permanent residence permits, like this one, the naturalisations, the study permits, the business visas, even visas of people who are retired – retirement visas – and spousal visas, all of them are being reviewed from 2004.
Why did I choose 2004? That is the year in which the Immigration Act came into effect. Why did I do this? If the department was in shambles, we wouldn’t have known. It is because we have a very effective anticorruption unit. When they are doing their anticorruption work, they discovered that two-thirds of all the complaints they are investigating, emanate from permits like this one. Then I said, no, let’s investigate to find out what is happening. That team consists of investigators and people who understands governance. They have just submitted their preliminary report, which I won’t make public since it is preliminary. Now, a department that is in shambles will not be able to do all those things.
Your assumption about somebody resigning if it is ever proven that Bushiri ever came into the country ... all the people that are alleging have to provide proof and say Bushiri has entered here and all that. To send us on a whirlwind chase, chasing something that nobody is providing evidence for ...
That’s why I gave the analogy of these newborn babies, it is unfair to the state to spend resources checking around something that is likely not have happened.
Yesterday, I was listening to the lawyer of Bushiri on SAfm and he said this is rubbish to imagine that he can take chances and come here. Of course people dismiss that because they want to believe The City Press report. The onus lies with the writers of that report to give proof to you, so that we no longer make assumptions and that we have proof that it happened. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Minister of Home Affairs, when Prophet Bushiri left the country, you also said it is inaccurate to say some officials were involved in his escape. You have said it a number of times. Today, you are still dismissing reports that he has been in and out of this country.
It is a fact, Minister, that that would have never happened or being possible without the help of Home Affairs officials. Are you at some point, Minister, not failing this department by forever dismissing reports and facts that are out there? Are there any investigations after the reports that are all over? It is a fact, Minister, that you are going to come back here with a different view next time. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Mokause, let’s separate two things here. Nobody ever denied that Bushiri escaped out of this country. On the contrary, a team led by military intelligence, state security and police; in other words, a team led by the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Police with their respective departments, which includes Home Affairs, set down to investigate this matter. I am sure that you are aware that the Hawks, who are leading that team, made a statement that they’ll never release the results of that investigation because it is a matter that is going to court.
At no stage have we ever denied the fact that Bushiri has escaped and officials might have helped him. I don’t know, hon member, where I ever said no official helped them. It is clear that he has been helped by somebody, whether by Home Affairs or police, but the Hawks will provide the information at the appropriate time.
The second issue which I don’t want you to mix with the first, is the story in The City Press, all I am saying is that we do not have evidence of that story. Even the Hawks released a statement that they do not have evidence. It is just a story that he came three times and it ends there. All I am saying is that it is unfair for us to prove something which the accuser is not giving evidence. When you make an accusation, you must put evidence in front of us and say this thing has happened and these are the facts. At the moment, nobody has such facts. So, what do you want us to do?
Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much, Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister and colleagues, I would like to know from the Minister whether he is aware of the extent of the fraudulent permits in the country, especially those issued by the officials from this department? If not, why? If so, whether the department has plans and the capacity to review permanent residence permits issued over the years to eliminate fraudulent permits in this category? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, I am puzzled. I have just answered that question. I am sure you are aware, Chairperson, that I have answered it. I have told the member that I am aware because we have a very strong anticorruption
unit in the department. The anticorruption unit reported to us two-thirds of corruption cases that they are investigating have to do with permits. It is for this reason that more than three months ago, I put together a team of five people as I have said. It is headed by the former Director-General in The Presidency, Dr Lubisi. The team’s job is to review all permits that were ever issued within the Republic of South Africa since 2004. I gave examples, permanent residence permits, naturalisation, business permits, study visas and even old age pension visas. I have mentioned that. The team is busy doing work. The team was appointed because we are aware that there is a problem, hon member. I couldn’t have appointed that team if I was oblivious to the problems in that regard. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ngwezi, on what question are you rising?
Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Chair, the second part to this question, which he had answered is that: Does the Minister think that the department has capacity to deal with this problem of fraudulent permits in the country? It is not like I didn’t hear that he had answered the first part. The second part is as I have raised it above.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ngwezi, we have a responsibility of avoiding what you are doing now. You can have a separate discussion with the Minister on the side.
Question 146:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, as I said in this House two weeks ago during the Budget Speech of the Department of Home Affairs that this connectivity problem is indeed the original sin the Department of Home Affairs. Only the daily basis we deal with this matter and we are doing lots of things. One of the things we have done – may be let me say our solutions are divided into two. Number one, what do you do with mobile trucks? Mobile units that go all over the country to give services to people that they are referring to. Number two, what do you do with the static offices all over the country? All the 412 Home Affairs offices in the country.
On the issue of the trucks we have got 100 of them and we wish to increase them. So we have connected them with 4G Long-Term Evolution, LTE connectivity so that they will be able to be deployed in various areas. The reason Chairperson is that our trucks depend only on network connectivity – MTN, Vodacom, etc. So, in areas where there is connectivity 4G will help but we have realised that even the 4G does not work very well in
the rural areas. In the trucks that we have deployed in the rural areas we have inserted V-Satellite units in them and they are working very well.
We are also doing a daily morning caring. That means the IT section is doing a daily monitoring of the system to see whether there could be problems and every morning the results of that monitoring are given to provincial officials of Home Affairs so that if there is any problem that is suspected or any problem that might happen they look at alternative means. We have also set in generators because when there is load shedding there is generally no connection in Home Affairs. So we have put up generators in our offices to try to deal with this matter.
The department has also just recently appointed a very experienced Chief Information Officer, CIO to come and help us with this matter and he is starting work on 01 July 2021, that is less than two weeks’ time. The department has also had discussions with the Treasury to look for alternative network solutions that will ameliorate these network challenges.
The impact of connectivity as per the question raises on the
30 day of registration on birth is that – Chairperson it is
our policy that all children must be registered within 30 days of birth. At the moment we have reached about 70% of that because we depend on children bringing in the children. But now it is not much impacted by this because we are able to issue Birth Certificates manually if the systems are down.
When systems are down they accept only live capture system, like the smart ID and Passport. Otherwise Birth Certificates are not very much impacted. Also, we have installed systems in hospitals such that some hospitals can give you a birth certificate before the baby goes home. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mr I M SILEKU: Sihlalo mandibulele kuMphathiswa ngenkcazelo.
English:
Hon Minister, although the Department of Home Affairs has devoted resources to ensure that all births are timeously registered and there is no child left behind in South Africa, the Department of Home Affairs continues to be played by network down issues. Just yesterday in an article in the Cape Argus the State Information Technology Agency, Sita was quoted saying:
Sita is not to be blamed for the network downtime that causes Home Affairs offices to go off line. The fact is that, Home Affairs got the lowest network connectivity service.
So, Minister as you have said that this is an ongoing problem in the Department of Home Affairs. For how long are ordinary South Africans be going to be deprived of their right when it comes to the issue of the Birth Certificates because the department is failing or struggling to deal with the issue of connectivity in this country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I have got no intention to get involved in the mudslinging exercise of the Sita officials. I have mentioned the issue here in the budget speech and I have mentioned it today here that we are engaged with the Treasury. Now, the hon member is quoting what Sita said in the Cape Argus as if that is the gospel truth. I am not going to get involved into that mudslinging, it will not help us. We are looking for solutions for this problem and as far as I am concerned we have engaged Treasury and I will not be able to give you details of what we are discussing with them until they respond to us.
All I can say is that, as I have said, every day we are trying to deal with this matter of connectivity and I have told you, hon member, you are quoting the issue of birth and I have told you that issue does not impact negatively on birth because we can issue Birth Certificates manually and we are doing so almost every day while systems are down. A birth certificate is not like an ID or a Passport. It is issued on the spot. It is not like you go back to the department and check. Any child who is born into a hospital can go home with the birth certificate.
Two weeks ago, I was helping the MEC for Health in Limpopo on vaccinations and we also deployed Home Affairs trucks there. All the people who came for Birth Certificates for their babies they left home with those Birth Certificates, all of them. That is exactly what is happening on every day basis.
Thank you very much.
Ms M BARTLETT: Hon Chairperson, good morning to the hon Minister. Hon Minister, thank you for your response. In view of these challenges did your department manage to conduct a thorough assessment in terms of what caused these challenges? What are the mechanisms to resolve these and do we have technicians monitoring the system on a 24 hourly basis? Will
it possible for them to monitor Home Affairs offices across the country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, as I have said, we are ceased with these problems every day because Home Affairs means IT. Other departments can sometimes function without IT but never on Home Affairs. Our name is IT. So, for that reason we look at this problem on a daily basis. We have got a team inside the department which is going to be joined by the experienced CIO in two weeks’ time but that team, on a daily basis, looks at this matter and report back to provincial managers for them to know what is happening.
About 18 months ago or so, we have opened a war room at Centurion at the Sita headquarters whereby all these companies that give us this IT service – because the IT is provided by the private companies like IBM, UOH – We put the companies together and even call their CEOs to sit with us in the war rooms to give us solutions in these problems. Sometimes it works for two weeks and other times it starts all over again. That is why we have to pressurise them and say no, this method of getting IT through other means, through state technology agency rather than going directly to take responsibility, can you make sure that, via the PFMA, you find a way to allow us
to do that. That is where we are but every day this system is monitored on a daily basis, I can assure you hon member. Thank you very much.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, in the age of technology we all know the importance of bundle of connectivity and proper support. Why is it that this department as crucial as Home Affairs still believe that it can keep on spending on these unnecessary infrastructure and services and why is Home Affairs still subscribe to the lowest band service and support packages services to Sita and when will you realise that spending more on decent service delivery packages but should expected services would have resolved them most if not all of the connectivity issues at service delivery at the Department of Home Affairs? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I think you are assuming that we are doing that exactly because the person who made that story did not give you the whole picture. I have just said, I do not think I must use this session on a mudslinging exercise with the person for making that information publicly that we are affiliating to the smallest band without giving the whole story on what is happening there. I think hon member, as I have said it repeatedly that we eventually looked into
Treasury to help us. If we are lying, they will put it so in writing and say, no Minister, this is not correct, this is the correct state of affairs and they will come back and tell you that we were wrong. For the moment to start debating something that is still being looked at – on the basis of half-baked information it is unfair to us and I do not want to get involved in that mudslinging. I am sorry.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, it is Mokause, I will be taking the question on behalf of the party. Minister, it is a fact that wherever you go, you leave behind a dysfunctional department. The Department of Health is in a mess because of your splendid incompetence and now the Department of Home Affairs. Perhaps, in the worst shape ever. The queues are long, the issuing of key documents takes forever and now the systems are down and there is no alternative at all. Are you aware that in rural areas, for example in the Northern Cape in Kuruman, people queue as early as three o’clock for Death Certificates only to be told at 10 o’clock in the morning that the system is down.
The very same satellite trucks you are talking about, few days ago, the one in Kuruman had to be returned from Postmansdorp because the systems were down. Truly and honestly, Minister,
have you considered throwing the towel or do you still think that you are capable in turning things around elsewhere in government? This is unacceptable for you Minister forever not having a political will to serve the people of South Africa.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I do not know whether to engage with the member who has just decided to insult me. All the things have got no basis. These are just insults; it is a feeling. But Chairperson, she mentions the issue of the Death Certificates. At no stage did anybody failed to be buried because Home Affairs did not issue the Death Certificate. Even Muslims who sometimes burry somebody five hours after the death we are able to issue Death Certificates for them if it is the issue of the Death Certificate.
If it is the issue of connectivity, I cannot keep on repeating the same story again and again about what is happening and what we are trying to do. As for the member believing that she must insult me, that is her choice and I do not want to get engaged into that. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, on a point of order: When Ministers come either in the NA or NCOP to answer
questions, they must not sweep questions under the carpet and then claim that we are insulting them. There is no way that I have insulted the Minister. We are talking about the incapability of this department and the lack of political leadership of Minister Motsoaledi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let us hear what the point of order of hon Mthethwa.
Hon MEMBER: There cannot be a point of order on top of the point of order.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, on a point of order: No, it is fact that the Minister has been insulted and actually you should protect the Minister in terms of this.
Therefore, you cannot allow another platform again for the Minister to be insulted. That is my point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The problem that we have hon members is that at times the atmosphere gets heated a bit and instead of responding and conducting the debate in a way that provide the space for everybody to express himself or herself has got to be the practise. We then raise points that have got no rationale to a point of order. Let us accept
robust debates for what they are and allow space for Ministers, especially the delegates themselves as well as everybody to have space to express themselves. Let us not limit the debate. Let us engage and if it means let the debate to be robust as it can be. So, we will then move ahead hon members. Once again a plea for calmer minds and for tolerance.
Question 156:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair and hon members, the hon member will realise that, the issue of vaccines is a terrain of the National Department of Health. However, having been there myself and presently belonging in the Inter- Ministerial Committee on Vaccines, I can confirm that people are not excluded on the basis of nationality when health authorities embark on vaccination programmes to combat communicable diseases. I am not talking about COVID-19 only, there are many communicable diseases in the country like measles, tuberculosis, TB etc. for all of which we have an expanded programme on vaccination.
When you go out to vaccinate, you don’t choose nationalities of people especially if it is a communicable disease, because if you do so you will be working in reverse. For instance, if you say you want herd immunity and you must vaccinate 67% of
the population in order to get herd immunity, that 67% means 67% of people who are found in a particular geographic area regardless of their nationality. If you exclude other nationalities on that basis, then you simply won’t reach your herd immunity. Those who are not immunised will simply infect the others, so it doesn’t help.
Chairperson, this is actually a universal principle. That is why as I am speaking here South African nationals in other countries are actually being vaccinated on a daily basis, they are not pushed aside. The modalities of how you vaccinate everybody even those from other countries, the National Coronavirus Central Command Council has actually decided to put up a team of officials chaired by the Secretariat of the National Coronavirus Central Command, NCCC to look into the various modalities of this question, of how do you vaccinate people who may not necessarily be having South African identity documents as such. The principle is that; you don’t exclude people on the basis of nationality on an issue like vaccination. We believe other countries are doing the same.
Thank you very much.
Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much hon Chair and thank you to the Minister for this elaborate response. Hon Minister, is the
information you have provided being communicated sufficiently to South Africans to reactionaries’ elements causing confusion in our communities? Are South African citizens in other countries are also getting these lifesaving vaccines hon Minister? Thank you
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I am just here mentioning the policies from the Department of Health in which I was there long ago. I still remember Limpopo specifically, when we want to get a percentage of people vaccinated, it is usually more than 100%, they will 110% and 120%. When we investigate why, it is because the baseline, the denominator is on the basis of the statistics which they get from a particular municipality. When they go on the ground to immunise, they find other people who do not necessarily appear on the database. They vaccinate them for the reasons that I have mentioned and that is why they end up reaching 120%.
I am saying it is universal because I know that, South Africans who are in other countries are busy also being vaccinated. We cannot be the ones who then start discriminating because as I have already said, it will also be counterproductive. Thank you very much.
Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much Nyambose. I think that hon Minister in the response you have given, with South Africans that are in other countries, the majority of them is documented. They are in those countries legally. The majority of the foreign nationals who are here, some of them are not documented and that causes a problem in terms of the budget.
I would like to know whether we have enough budget to vaccinate everybody who is here in the country even if that person is not budgeted for, because a person who is here illegally I think that, that person is not in the statistics of South Africans. Therefore, the budget is allocated based on the number of people who are in the country. I would like to know whether we have enough budget to actually cater for that. Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I can just give you the policies of this department. We are speaking about the disease here. This is a disease and a communicable one which moves from one person to the other. The purpose of vaccination is to languish that disease to make sure that, it does not occur among human beings so that they do not infect each other. Diseases will not know who is documented and who is not, let me be clear on that. A disease does not know about
documentation or nationality, who is documented and who is not. It harasses and ... [Inaudible] ... everybody. If you want to eradicate it, you have got to vaccinate everybody. The issue of whether there is budget or not, that really Treasury must answer.
The principle on the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Vaccination to which I belong and the National Coronavirus Central Command Council is that, everybody ought to be vaccinated. I am mentioning that in other countries, I don’t know under what conditions, whether they exclude those who are not documented or not, they vaccinate everybody on the basis of the things I have mentioned that, we are dealing with the communicable diseases. It does not know borders. It does not know documentation. It does not know nationalities. It just affects human beings. Thank you very much.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you Chair. Minister what is the status of refuges in the country? Are we having refugee camps here? If yes, does the camps comply with the COVID-19 protocols? Are the refugees in those camps being vaccinated? Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: This is a new question altogether but I am prepared to answer it. There are no
refugee camps in the Republic of South Africa as a matter of policy. You will be aware from since 1994, South Africa took a deliberate decision that, anybody who comes here and becomes a refugee must integrate in our communities. It is not like other countries where there are formal refugee camps, where United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees plays a role and other international nongovernmental organisations, play a role. South Africa does not have refugee camps.
Having said so, you said what is a status of a refugee. A person who earns refugee status in South Africa has got all the rights of South Africans except a right to vote. So, any right that we have got, a person who has a refugee status, who has been given a section 24 permit has got those rights. The only right he doesn’t have is a right to vote. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu I M SILEKU: Mandibulele Sihlalo. Mphathiswa ndiyavumelana nawe kwaye ndiyakungqinela kwinto ethi, iCOVID-19 ayijongi ukuba usuka kweliphi ilizwe kuba ithatha nabani na, unazo iimpepha ungenazo. Mna bendizakubuza Mphathiswa njengoko utshilo ukuba wonke umntu kufuneka agonywe, kuba esi sifo siyosulela. Ingaba isebe lakho Mphathiswa lingakwazi
ukusebenzisa le nkqubo, ukuqinisekisa ukuba aba bantu bagonywayo bengenazo iimpepha bayazifumana ezi mpepha ukuncedisana nesebe? Siyazi ukuba isebe liyasokola ukuqinisekisa ukuba wonke umntu osuka kwamanye amazwe uyazifumana iipepha.
Ingaba le nkqubo yogonyo njengoko kugonywa umntu onazo iimpepha nalowo ungenazo, isebe lizakuyisebenzisa ukuqinisekisa ukuba abantu abangenazo iimpepha bayazifumana ezi mpepha? Enkosi Mphathiswa
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Indeed, hon member we will do that. That is why we chose the special team to find out what modalities are to be followed for people who might be having no papers. Of course, if we come across a person with no papers we take use of every opportunity
Let me tell you of the ... [Inaudible] ...legal problem hon member, I have said it many times and people do not seem to be believing it. This issue of being undocumented they believe it is a deliberate action by home affairs. Many people who are undocumented do not want to be documented, believe you me. It might be people think that this is outrageous, but this is true.
You may remember that in 2008 when the Zimbabwean economy started collapsing, lots and lots of Zimbabweans rushed to South Africa and the refugee reception centres could not deal with them. The Department of Home Affairs at that time in 2010 went to Cabinet to ask to give Zimbabweans exemption or a special permit for all those people.
The other group was Lesotho Special Permit. In the case of Lesotho Special Permit, they gave 92 000 permits. When they were due for renewal, I got a telephone call from the Minister of Home Affairs there who said we must increase it to 200 000. I said no but 92 000 had applied, we have issued them and we are just renewing for that 92 000. He said, no Minister at the time you gave 92 000, there many more people and they were not prepared to come forth because they thought they would be deported back to the country. They went into hiding and did not take the special permits that were given. In other words, they were running away from documentation. That is why I am making this statement.
I know I hospitals, when people are sick and go to hospitals, we don’t turn them away on the basis of documentation. They are given medication and their details are written down so that they can be followed up so that they get given invoices
etc. Most of the time the address they give you is false. It is a false address, it does not exist and you will never find them again. These are the problems that we are dealing with on a daily basis. Thank you very much.
Question 141:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the conflict in Mozambique, whether you call it war or conflict or insurgency, is a very serious matter. It is far beyond the capacity of the Department of Home Affairs to deal with. So, the departments that is dealing with that is the South African National Defence Force and the Military Intelligence. They are the ones who are dealing with this matter on a daily basis because we simply do not have any capacity to stop armed insurgence as you are aware that at Home Affairs we do not have any arms whatsoever.
In as far as our role in the Border Management Authority, BMA, is concerned, the Department of Home Affairs was designated by a Cabinet as far back as 2013 to lead the establishment of the Border Management Authority, and as you are aware, during my budget speech I even thanked this hon House for having helped to unlock the BMA Bill that was stuck here for three years. It was unlocked and in July 2020 the President was able to ascend
and sign it into operation. We are busy at the present moment implementing the Border Management Authority.
In terms of what the President has signed, we were able to appoint an acting commissioner. We are now in the process of appointing a permanent commissioner and two deputy commissioners and the staff for the Border Management Authority. So, the work of establishing the Border Management Authority is on.
The Border Management Authority will take over all the functions of the departments. There are about six departments that are found at the borders. The Department of Home Affairs will work as co-ordinator, and there is going to be an Inter- Ministerial committee which controls what happens there. That committee is going to be chaired by the Minister of Home Affairs. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, to the hon Minister, thank you for the comprehensive answer. As we all know that with the hunger, unemployment, violence and lack of medical services, hundreds if not thousands of people are said to be crossing into South Africa illegally on a monthly basis from Mozambique.
I heard you say that you are busy with that BMA, but have your department’s budget been adjusted and how has it been adjusted to provide for expenses towards securing and protecting the border between South Africa and Mozambique since traditional smuggle routes and roots that were traditionally allegedly used for illegal activities are being obstructed as a result of the persisting violence from north Mozambique and new pastures may be sought in South Africa? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, the initial adjustment that was made towards the budget for the Border Management Authority was only R28 million and has been readjusted to R120 million because under the Border Management Authority we are intending to hire border guards. What we have done ... the borderline around South Africa, the land borderline and not the sea, is about 4 772 kilometres in length. The sea one is about 3 900, but let me go to the land one.
We have actually divided it into 10 segments and we have looked at each and every segment where there are problems. Out of these 10 segments we have identified four where issues referred to by the hon member are actually happening. I do not have segments here with me but if my memory serves me very well, one of the segments is the area called Manguzi from
Swaziland right up to Indian Ocean. It is the border between us and Mozambique and it is about 76 kilometres in length.
That is where most of the smuggled cars go through and we have targeted that area.
The others, of course, is the border between us and Mozambique and between us and Zimbabwe which we are targeting. The border between us and Botswana for instance is the longest at 1 500 kilometres but we hardly ever experience problems there. The other border that is very long is between us and Namibia and it is about 850 kilometres but we hardly ever experience problems there as well. The second longest is between us and Lesotho because the perimeter around Lesotho is a border with South Africa, it is 950 kilometres. As you know, Lesotho is in our belly so we deal with them in a different manner than we deal with other countries. We are looking at those segments in implementing the BMA. The problematic segments are where we are going to deploy resources. Thank you.
Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, to the Minister, good morning. [Inaudible] ... from ISIS and its affiliated organisations is not only coming out of Mozambique but it already exists within our borders. In July 2020 a kidnapping syndicate with links to ISIS was snatched by South African Police Service, Saps, and
five foreign nationals were arrested. We have heard of the bombings in Verulam and the arrest around that.
Minister, we would like to understand the scale of the threat from within our borders. Can you tell us, understanding what you said about not having arms and weaponry, but can you tell us how many foreign nationals are under surveillance in South Africa or what your department is doing to address these threats from within our borders? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, the Department of Home Affairs has no right or any power — it is not empowered by any legislation to do surveillance on people. The departments that do that are the State Security and Military Intelligence and I don’t think they will outline in public who they are doing surveillance on. But we do not have that capacity nor do we have any legislative measure to do surveillance on people. We depend on State Security and Military Intelligence and other state security organisations like the Hawks for instance. But Home Affairs does not do that. Thank you very much.
Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, to the Minister, thank you very much for providing clarity on this matter. In addition to ensuring
that borders are secured, what role should communities along the borders of South Africa play to give support to the work of government in this regard, and will government engage such communities? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member Dangor, I think this is a very good question. The situation now is completely different from the situation that was pertaining during the apartheid era where farmers around the border were armed in order to stop insurgency into South Africa. At the present moment, I can assure you, communities play a different role. For instance, in our experience we have learned that there are many communities who are the same community but are divided by a border so when they cross the border to and fro they won’t regard themselves as breaking any laws. Such border communities exist and I can give you an example with Tshidilamolomo in Botswana where the same community is divided by a border. Remember that some borders are natural borders like the Limpopo River or the Caledon River in Lesotho, but in most of the southern African areas, the borders are just imaginary lines which were not even drawn by ourselves. So, they were able to divide people who belong to the same community.
For that reason, we have started a project at the borders whereby these border communities are given special permits just to cross to and fro. You may find that people buy bread the other side which in terms of government laws is regarded as a different country because it is across the border. To them it is just a convenient place to buy bread.
I remember when members of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs paid an oversight visit to our border with Eswatini, they were surprised when they found a very small fence with a small gate where people just go through. That is because they come in and buy bread and regard themselves as the same community. Such communities we deal with them differently and we give them such documents. We have just completed Tshidilamolomo and we are going to continue in other areas where we identify such communities. Thank you very much.
Question 157:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, to date there are 128 000 people who were registered in South Africa as refugees since the Refugee Act came into operation in 1998. But at the present moment, the people who are actively on the register as refugees, that means, who actively deserve
international protection are 76 723. The question is asking about the criteria. How does somebody earn a refugee status?
Chairperson, the criteria are established in section 3(a) of Refugees Act. Section 3(a) of the Refugee Act is the domestication of the United Nations, UN, Convention of 1951, and that convention is very unambiguous about who qualifies. It says and I quote:
Any country that is a signatory to that convention, if somebody rushes to that country and asking for asylum to become a refugee, if that person come from a country where there is war then that person is deserving or where there are natural disasters,
Like in you have just seen volcanoes in DRC, if somebody runs away and crosses a border to look for refugee because they are running for a volcano eruption, that is a natural disaster.
Or if a person is persecuted for their political, religious, cultural practices or even their sexual orientation.
If the person can provide proof that in their country of origin they are being persecuted for those, then they stand to gain refugee status and they are given a section 24 permit.
The question as to whether there is any method that we use to monitor their movements, there is a committee called the Standing Committee On Refugee Affairs, SCRA, - it is not a parliamentary committee, Chairperson, it is a committee on refugee affairs which is appointed by the Minister of Home Affairs. Every four years it reviews these permits whether the person still needs international protection. Meaning whether the criteria that are mentioned in the UN Convention, whether they still apply. For instance, if the war is over in your country, SCRA will review and say look, the war is over and we are taking away your refugee status. In which case, you are now requested to depart the republic.
If on the other hand the conditions are still there, then SCRA will renew your refugee status for another four years and in which case it comes and review it in the next four years.
The last part of the question about whether departments endeavour to work with the other departments to quantify the impact of foreign nationals on service delivery. You will
realise hon member that in the NA some members during the debate on the state of the nation address, sona, did ask the President a question more or less along this whole line about the impact, the President then established an Inter- Ministerial Committee, IMC, which is co-chaired by myself together with the Minister of Labour and Employment, Thulas Nxesi.
The committee is looking at things like the job market, business opportunities, social services as they relate to migrants. We have now got a lot of experts and academics who are advising and giving us statistics in this regard. We are busy putting things together and even looking at what legislation need to be changed. When this committee has finalised it will go to Cabinet to present their findings and get further instructions from the Cabinet in this regard.
Thank you very much.
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you for your detailed response in terms of refugees ... [Inaudible.] ... and the monitoring ... by the department as well as the engagement with regard to the impact of foreign nationals on services delivery.
Hon Minister, recently, there has been residents’ tensions in Soweto between South African nationals and foreign nationals in relation to a campaign called “Dudula’ [evict] which is designed to evict illegal immigrants. What role is the department playing to mitigate victimisation of foreign nationals while also managing the untenable situations created by illegal immigrants?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, hon member, the operation you are talking about is an illegal operation, if I am not mistaken. It is people taking the law in their own hands and you are aware that when people do that, is a matter that police must deal with. In our case, in home affairs, the only uniform person we have got is an immigration official who will only go to investigate immigration transgressions, not issues of South Africans taking the law in their own hands. It is only the police that are dealing with that matter.
On the other hand, in operations like “Operation O Kae Molau” when police go out to look for criminals and all that, the immigration officials join them. And wherever they encounter people who are documented they then send them over to home affairs, they arrest them. And the law says you must arrest them for 48 hours, meaning within 48 hours they must appear in
front a magistrate who will confirm that, that person need to deported. In that case, when the magistrate has endorsed that, the person is sent to Lindela Repatriation Centre. In Lindela, we then try to find out where that person is coming from, and we call the ambassador from that country where the person originated and the ambassador must identify that person, and we discuss with them the modalities of deportation. This is where home affairs come in. We join operations like those. But if police are alone and they were not in any operation with home affairs officials, if they equally encounter somebody who is undocumented, they hand them over to home affairs and we follow the similar process which I have just outlined. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I will be taking the follow up question on behalf of the party. Minister, when you were in the Department of Health you once made an extremely reckless statement that public health is collapsing because of the influx of African nationals to South Africa. That is not an insult to you.
Today, as the Minister of Home Affairs your department is leading efforts to frustrate African nationals who are in this country. Your department feeds on the xenophobic statement of
South Africa. Is it your department’s policy to be a state’s sponsor against African nationals? If not, why is it so difficult for African nationals who legible to stay in this country to acquire legal documents?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, I never made any reckless statement when I was in the Department of Health. I made a statement based on facts, it was not reckless, it was facts which was obtained from hospitals. Having said so the department has got no policy to sponsor xenophobia as you are saying hon member. As you have said at the end of your sentence that “people who are legible.”
We do not know any person who is legible for documentation in South Africa where we have refused them with documentation.
Anybody who we come across, if they are legible, we try our level best to give them documentation. The word legibility means they are many who are not legible, in other words, who do not deserve to get papers. I have juts outlined to you here the UN Conventions of 1951. It is not the Department of Home Affairs who came with that convention, it is the UN which said and I quote:
People can only be given a country status if they were running away from natural disasters, if they are being persecuted for their political stance and activities, for their religious activities, for their cultural activities and for sexual orientation.
When a person comes into South Africa and arrives at the refugee reception centre, and they announce that they are refugees and mention one of these facts, they meet a person called the Refugee Status Determination Officer, RSDO. If the RSDO finds that these facts are not true, they are then not going to allow that person to get any documentation because the person is not legible. And they don’t push words into the mouth of that person. People themselves come and say I am here, I am an asylum seeker, I want refugee status, these are my facts I come from a particular country and I am being persecuted. If the RSDO finds that the information provided is not true they don’t issue any documentation. It is true that we only give documentation to people who are legible. But we are not sponsoring any xenophobia, there is no evidence of that. Thank you.
Mr I M SILEKU: Hon Chair, hon Minister you rightfully mentioned the IMC which was established by the President in
2020. What I would like to know is, what measures have been put in place by home affairs regarding immigration and labour?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I don’t really understand the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will ask hon Seleku to repeat the question again.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Can the hon member explain further rather than repeating the question because I don’t understand what he is trying to say?
Mr I M SILEKU: Minister, I think when the IMC was established there were certain issues that the IMC had to look at, specifically when it comes to immigration and labour. What I am trying to get at is, what measures has home affairs put in place to deal with those two issues?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you. Now I understand. You are right and as I said, the IMC is dealing with the job market, business opportunities social services etc. One of the first things that the committee looked at was the issue of quota. You may remember as noise started reaching crescendo in
the country about jobs between nationals and foreign nationals. If you remember that, the Minister of Finance himself during the budget speech mentioned that it would be better if there are quotas. For instance, in the hospitality industry there are a lot of complains that when you go there you find that 100% of the people who work there are not South Africans. We are not saying non-South African shouldn’t work but there should be quotas, maybe 40-60 or so. In the trucking industry the same thing is happening.
What we discovered as the IMC which we were told as home affairs was that legally, there is no law in the country that provides for such quotas. The only law that exist is, if somebody comes from outside the country to establish a factory or an industry of some sort, they are allowed to bring 40% of the staff from outside the country, maybe a country where they originate from, but 60% of the staff must be from local in South Africa. But if it’s a South African business that is hiring, they can hire 100% foreign nationals and nothing can be done to that person, if those foreign nationals are documented by the way. When home affairs or Department of Employment and Labour visits they can only deal with those who are not documented and they can do nothing with those who are documented.
Subsequently, the committee then realised that there is a legal gap here. We have asked the experts to sit down and look at the legislation to find out if we can’t develop a legislation on quotas and that is on-going.
Question 147:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you Chairperson. The national identity system, NIS, is truly going to bring a new order, a new dawn in South Africa in as far as identification is concerned and we are looking forward to having that system as quick as possible. At the present moment we have three databases in as far as identity is concerned three despairing databases in Home Affairs. The first database is called the national population register, NPR. The national population register, registers South Africans who took birth certificate, those who took IDs, those who got married and those who died. All of them are found in the national population register.
There is another system which is separate from the national population register, and it is called the national immigration information system, NIIS. This one register only immigrants or foreign nationals who come into the country. Unfortunately, it does not register their deaths, it does not register their
marriage and this is a very serious weak point which we need to correct.
The last system is called visa adjudication system, Vas, that register short-term visitors to the Republic of South Africa, like tourists who are on business visas or who are on study visa, etc. The national identification system, NIS, is going to bring up all these systems together under one system called national identity system, NIS.
Now, where are we with that system? The first thing we needed to do is a precursor to get a correct biometric system. At the present moment the biometric system that is in us is called the Home Affairs national identification system, Hanis. That system has only two biometrics - your finger print and your photo. In this modern era of technology identifying people with only a finger print and a photo might not be enough and it might be one of the things that increase corruption in Home Affairs. We have decided to leave Hanis and move to a new system called the automated biometric identification system, Abis. It has five biometrics. It can have your finger print, it can store your palm print, it can recognise your iris in the eye, it can do facial recognition and it can do a heel print for a new baby. You are aware that we don’t take finger
prints for babies because it is not possible, but Abis will allow us to take their heel prints.
In order to do this, we needed a service provide. As provided for in the law, because it is an information technology, IT, system, we are not allowed to acquire our own IT system. We have to acquire them through the State Information Technology Agency, Sita. The State Information Technology Agency then went on to acquire this system. They then found a company called EOH Holdings. When the Auditor-General was auditing Sita he flagged this company and he instructed us in Home Affairs to put a forensic audit in this company because the he was not happy. We did that and it took the whole year.
Last month, I presented the results of this forensic audit to the portfolio committee in the National Assembly and people are being charged for that. There has been a mess that was caused by EOH after it has been acquired. So we have now ceded this contract to a new company. We have signed agreements through the Treasury. That company is going to deliver Abis in December this year. Once we have Abis, then we are going to migrate all South Africans who are in Hanis into Abis system. Once they are migrated, we will then start implementing NIS so that all South Africans within the borders of this country are
in one database, which is called NIS. This is where we are, Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Mr I M SILEKU: Hon Chair, thank you very much. Hon Minister, thank you very much for the update. Minister, this project was supposed to have been operational in 2019-20, and there has been a lot of media reports based on your answer as well that there were irregularities in terms of the procurement of this particular system. Can the Minister tell us as the NCOP, how many people are going to be accountable for the failure of this particular project not to be operational in time that was given by Home Affairs, and how many people in the department were responsible for making sure that they irregularly award that company the contract because that is the issue that we are confronted with? There are always officials within the department that are either connected with politicians that they just go the short route instead of following the right procedure and processes as a result that takes us back in terms of delivering service and taking this particular department to the next level. Thanks very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, as I have said, to implement this Abis is an IT system, and in terms of the rules you need state information technology agency, Sita, to issue a
tender and procure this system and give it to Home Affairs which will pay. That is what happened. The State Information Technology Agency, Sita, did that and they procured for us a company called EOH which started this work. The Auditor- General was auditing SITA, and not Home Affairs. The Auditor- General’s office was auditing Sita when they flagged this.
They then said because the money to pay for it will come from Home Affairs as Sita is doing it for Home Affairs, it is Home Affairs that must put up its forensic audit to investigate.
While Sita was procuring this system obviously they laisse with officials in the Department of Home Affairs, and this is what happened. The forensic audit was identifying within Sita, within Home Affairs and within this company which played a particular role. Unfortunately, I don’t have the facts here in terms of the numbers. But as I have said this report i presented it. In fact, we called the forensic auditors to present it to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs in the National Assembly where we actually have numbers. Some people are being charged as per recommendations. Some are going through the disciplinary committee, DC, and others have been reported to the Hawks because they have been involved in criminal activities. We are still involved with the EOH as a company in a court case with regard to some of the payments
which could not be done because they did not keep the side of the bargain. So a lot of work is still being done.
Many people have been charged and others are going through DC. The recommendations were that SITA must charge each of its own officials who were involved. Those who have been involved in Home Affairs are being charged by us. The State Information Technology Agency, SITA, also promised the National Assembly that they will actually do that. That’s where the delay is.
The forensic audit took the whole year to be completed because there was a lot of work and a number of people who were to be interviewed. That is why the project delayed. But we want it as of yesterday, Chairperson, because it will help a lot of things in Home Affairs in terms of identification. It will reduce issues of fraud which I have just mentioned because we will be having a system that is able to help us in that. So, we are really eager in wanting this system to be successful.
Thank you.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you Chairperson and hon Minister. Hon Minister, what effect does the insufficient connectivity and IT support have on the national identity system and others to finalise the national identity system? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Because we don’t have the national identity system yet, it will be difficult to tell what the issues of connectivity is, and what effect do they have in the national identity system. We do not have it. What I have outlined is progress towards establishing it and, yes, of course the budget has been drawn. The Abis system that I was talking about, there is a fund of R409 million which was put aside to fund Abis that I have just mentioned. Yes, we definitely need the NIS and the Abis system because once we have the Abis the department will find itself in a new era definitely. But I cannot tell about the connectivity with NIS because we don’t have it yet. Thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson. I will take the question on behalf of the party. Minister, you will agree with us when we say that the failure of this project, led by dodgy contractors, impacts directly on the provision of service to South Africa. Have your department and Sita, after these irregularities were flagged, came to a conclusion to recommend blacklisting such companies? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: On our side as Home Affairs we certainly would not engage such companies again – no ways.
That decision we have clearly made in a meeting. But as
whether they will be blacklisted that will depend on the National Treasury. The National Treasury was engaged with us on ceding this to a different company because we had to get permission from them. So we gave them all the facts why we wanted this contract to be ceded to a different company. So, the Treasury is aware and we think they will go on with the work of blacklisting. On our side as Home Affairs you cannot, for a second time, use a company that has cost a mess like this - absolutely not. That I can assure you of. Thank you.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Minister for your responses to the questions. Let me add our hope of confidence on you, hon Minister. You are doing your job competently, professionally and to the best of your ability. You must never be deterred by those who always ponder for populism in terms of attacking your credibility and your good work. Having said that I just want to check with you, hon Minister, what caused the delay in terms of the implementation of this new system that you are talking about, and what is it that the department is doing to fast-track the implementation of that particular system? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon member. As I said, this was very unfortunate that Sita awarded this
contract to Home Affairs especially when it comes to fraud, fraudulent IDs or people misidentify themselves when you have so many biometrics like iris recognition and facial recognition. All these are very important to identify people.
We would be in a better position, but it has been delayed by these issues of corruption which, as I said, has been very unfortunate. That is where our bitterness comes from. But anyway, we have put it aside, we are containing and we are hoping by December 2021 we will have Abis delivered to us.
Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you Chairperson and good morning hon members. We will now continue with Deputy Minister Mashego-Dlamini of International Relations and Co- operation who will respond to the questions. I have been informed that the Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation will respond to questions. I now call on the hon Deputy Minister to respond to Question 158 asked by hon M Dangor. Hon Deputy Minister, remember that you have five minutes per question. Hon Minister? Deputy Minister, please come in.
An HON MEMBER: Malibongwe!
Question 158:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response to the question by the hon member is that the government of South Africa issued a media statement on the 8th and 14th of May 2021, condemning Israel for its unjust attack on civilians in Gaza and Jerusalem. In addition, the government used its permanent representative to the UN during the UN Security Council’s video teleconference open debate on 16 May this year, during a virtual meeting on the situation in the Middle East, to express its view regarding Israel’s attack, and recommended that the issue be forwarded to the UN General Assembly for consideration, should the UN Security Council be unable to act.
Furthermore, the government, in conjunction with the Namibian government, State of Palestine, supported by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, arranged and participated in a virtual meeting on the importance of upholding the principle of self- determination and nondiscrimination, justice for the Palestinian people, on the 8th of June 2021.
South Africa supports the recent adoption of the UN Human Rights Council resolution which establishes an international
commission of inquiry to investigate violations in the occupying Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and in Israel.
It is therefore our sincere hope that the independent commission of inquiry will be established with all due haste to investigate all violations and abuses, and that the necessary action will be taken to follow up on the commission’s findings. The department will communicate any further action still under consideration.
Mr M DANGOR: Chair, has the South African government considered taking drastic steps, such as boycotting Israeli companies and their products, in solidarity with the Palestinian people?
Furthermore, have we considered taking these issues to the International Criminal Court, ICC, as these are clearly war crimes by an occupier on occupied territory? I thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chair, of course on the issue of boycotting products coming from Israel, there is no
plan around that. However, on the issue of handing over the matter to the ICC, we as South Africa really support that if the Security Council fails, and the UN, they must definitely hand over this matter to the ICC so that the ICC must really take its course. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, House Chair and good morning to you, Deputy Minister. In light of your response to the original question, I would then like to know as a resident of the African continent and ... South Africa supposedly being a leader, why has the same approach not been followed in dealing with conflicts on the African continent, for example Ethiopia?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chair, well I don’t think the situation in Ethiopia and the situation in Palestine is the same, and I think the hon member must understand that what is experienced by Palestine is something that we experienced in South Africa from the apartheid regime. So, what is happening in Ethiopia is not similar. So, we can’t use a similar strategy and you can’t propose the same issues. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, Chairperson ... [no sound] ... Chairperson ... ANC not suspend the ambassador of the apartheid, racist, Zionist Israel from South Africa?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Deputy Minister, can you
respond please. I can’t hear him.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): I didn’t hear the first
... because I only heard when he said, the ANC can’t suspend.
So, I think he can repeat. Sorry about that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes. Thanks, Deputy Minister. Hon Motsamai, can you please respond your follow up question? Repeat your follow up question, hon Motsamai.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, Chairperson and hon Minister. I said, why has the South African government, led by the ANC, not suspended the ambassador of the apartheid, racist, Zionist Israel from South Africa?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, of course we are a country in solidarity with the Palestinians, and we
haven’t reached that particular level so far. We are handling our solidarity on the issues that I have raised now. We have not reached that particular level. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, defenceWeb reported in December 2016 that Iran and South Africa strengthened defence ties and the Iranian Defence Minister, Brig Gen Hossein Dehghan and his South African counterpart, Mapisa-Nqakula, signed a memorandum of understanding on defence co-operation between Iran and South Africa. It is no secret that Iran is one of the arm suppliers to Gaza. One similarity between the ANC and Hamas in Gaza is that they hide behind children to get international sympathy during a confrontation. Israel has the right to defend itself and its citizens against attacks. More than 4 000 rockets were fired from Gaza to Israel.
Minister, my question is, according to your knowledge, are there any other memorandums of understanding between South Africa and Palestine in place that contribute to supporting Iran or Palestine in their own actions that result in the killing of innocent women and children?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, I’m not very sure because when I was preparing for these questions I never even interacted with all the departments. However, I just want to say to the member that the fight is between Israel and Palestine, and whatever co-operation that any country has with any of them we need not assume that they are doing that because they want to reinforce the others to really oppress the others. I don’t think the co-operation is on that. I know that Israel has good co-operation with America, as much as we are asking America to intervene and to sit down with Israel on the issues that are happening. We cannot say that the USA is the one that is supporting Israel to fight. So, this is the fight but other countries are really there to co-operate on different issues. I am not aware of ... [Inaudible.] ... our interaction with ... our Defence ... with Palestine. I’m not aware of that and I can’t answer that. That question can go to the Minister of Defence. Thank you very much, Chair.
Question 145:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, well, the matter that the hon member is raising, these are matters that are very important to the President of South Africa that he raises in the engagement
with the countries on the continent all the time supported by the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, of course, where appropriate.
The President has done so since assuming the chairpersonship of the African Union in 2020, working to champion the needs of the continent on the basis of the challenges African countries face in obtaining equal access to effective and affordable vaccines and dealing with the socioeconomic impact of the pandemic. The President continues to engage the countries in the continent on these issues in his capacity as the African Union champion on COVID-19.
Furthermore, the President regularly engages with the African Centres for Disease Control and Prevention. It is in this context that the announcement was made recently that Kenya, Senegal and South Africa are ready to finalise preparation for rolling out the manufacturing of vaccines.
Central to all of these engagements is the sharing of experiences in rolling out vaccination programmes with the common thread being the challenges faced and the lessons learned in preparing for the post-pandemic era. This
engagement also informs South Africa's approach and experience on these important matters. I thank you, Chair.
Mr J J LONDT: House Chairperson, morning, Deputy Minister, I am glad that you did touch on the fact that we have taken up the African union presidency seat and also that we are focusing on the post-COVID-19 period. Now, one of the highest priorities for any country across the world is to tap into the potential of this post-pandemic economic boom. And one of the reasons, one of the main factors to tap into that is to get our citizens vaccinated.
Now, as you have said, South Africa is supposed to be one of the leaders on the African continent yet we are unable to get a proper vaccination roll-out going in our country. That means we will not be able to tap into this post-pandemic economic boom with investors and companies being afraid to come to South Africa because they're putting the workers at risk. Some countries, in the rest of the continent, have shown significant progress in this roll-out.
Now, has the Minister or yourself as the Deputy Minister and the department sought advice from countries like Morocco, Equatorial Guinea, or even our northern neighbours Zimbabwe on
how to get the ball rolling since it doesn't seem that this South African government is able to step up on its own, protect its citizens firstly and then ensuring that we are equipped and ready to tap into this post-pandemic economic boom that is expected. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson. I just want to indicate to the hon member that President Ramaphosa has established the African Vaccine Acquisition Task Team but on 13 January 2021, that task team reported to a Special Bureau Meeting that they have secured a provision of 270 million vaccine doses for African countries with at least 50 million being available for the crucial period of April to June 2021. So my feeling is that, as a country, we are doing our best. The issue of vaccination for African countries and even for the least developed countries, we are dealing with that but through the African Union, as the member is quite aware that our President, President Ramaphosa had been appointed this February, this year, as a champion for the vaccines securing. So I think that is the issue that we need to recognise. I'm aware that everybody needed to be vaccinated but it is properly co- ordinated by the African Union. Thank you very much, Chair.
IsiZulu:
Mnu E M MTHETHWA: Ngiyabonga mkhwekazi wami.
English:
Thank you very much, Minister, for your response and I take note that you have also mentioned that the country is doing its best in terms of this. But Minister, with respect to the African continent, are there, more specifically, any talks with other countries in the continent, particularly in the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region, in terms of establishing uniformity and joint vaccine producing facilities in dealing with this pandemic in order to reduce the reliance on the foreign countries and also, Minister ...
IsiZulu:
... ikakhulu nalawa makhambi okuvela ukuthi akhona ayatholakala eAfrika, wona-ke singenza kanjani ukuthi nawo siwabone ehlolwa abuye asetshenziswe la eAfrika singakholelwa kakhulu kulawa aphesheya. Ngiyabonga, Ngqongqoshe.
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, hon member, Nyambose, I think I have indicated that there are only three countries in Africa that
are producing vaccines. They're ready to roll out the production, manufacturing of the vaccine but then for any other countries to come in in this situation there's an issue that is preventing other countries from participating in the production of the vaccine.
That is why South Africa, together with the government of India, has made a proposal, they have tendered a proposal for the World Trade Organization to put a waiver on the intellectual property rights so that countries can be free to produce whatever equipment or medication that will alleviate COVID-19 as it stands now.
So the waiver is propagated to the whole world so that people must respond and the World Trade Organisation must create that waiver so that whatever equipment that is relevant for COVID-
19 can be produced by any other country in the world. And also there must be an exchange of skills and technology so that we all in Africa access the vaccine and access all the health equipment that will help us to alleviate COVID 19.
So now I think that's the main issue that is now on the go in the world right now that we are trying our best as South Africa and India to make sure and to convince the World Trade
Organization to create that waiver on that intellectual property. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): The third follow-up question is going to be asked by the hon Mr A Arnolds from the EFF. Hon Arnolds?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, I'm going to take the question on behalf of the party. Deputy Minister, South Africa's COVID vaccine roll-out is nonexistent and that is a reality. That is why, as a party, the EFF, we have taken it upon ourselves on the 25th and onwards to go and force the government to purchase vaccines from other countries for ordinary South Africans and frontline worker.
We are behind countries such as Zimbabwe and many other countries whilst we have the highest infections in the entire continent. To what extent has this dismal failure by the government to protect its citizens affected the country’s stature in the continent and the world? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chair, I think the hon member is going to have to take this question to the Department of Health. We are not
practitioners in that regard. We are the co-ordinators with the world and the country. We are not implementing the vaccination per se. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: There are two sets of questions here if the Deputy Minister has listened well. To what extent does this dismal failure by the government affects the stature of this country both in the continent and the world? The other part, yes, you can have manoeuvred and said that I can take it to the Department of Health, that we accept. It's the same question. So can answer the question, Deputy Minister? You are yet to respond.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon member. Minister, you can answer the question or you do not answer that question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chair, the hon member has just unpacked, but I don't see the dismal failure. So, that's my issue. So, for me,
I see my government trying its best to deal with the issue of vaccination like any other country in Africa and the world.
So, I don't see that dismal failure. [Interjections.]
Mr J J LONDT: That is the big problem, you do not see that you are failing.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks very much, hon member.
AN HON MEMBER: Order! Order, hon ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No! No! No! No! No,
comrade! Hon members! Order!
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, House Chairperson and the hon Minister, with regard to the fact that China was in South Africa at the beginning of the pandemic regarding explaining to South Africa the seriousness and the effects of the virus.
Why did South Africa wait until December to order the vaccines when the seriousness of the virus was clearly stated more than a year ago? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: House Chairperson, that's the question that must be asked to the Department of Health. We're not dealing with the ordering as the department. Thank you.
Question 159:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
CO-OPERATION: Deputy Chairperson, well, the main obstacles to realizing of transformation and progress globally, global government system, particularly at the United Nations Security Council, are due to the increasing pushback by certain powers against progressive forces, promoting collective action, international solidarity and co-operation in efforts to reform the global governance system.
There has been re-emergence of nationalism, unilateralism action and geopolitical tension resulting in a weakening multilateral system which has also been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and the rising inequalities.
This is a special truth as there is a growing challenge to the effectiveness and legitimacy of the United Nations Security Council. As the primary international organs mandated to promote international peace and security, it is essential that
the Council to remain true to its mandate and move beyond the paralysis brought on by the geopolitical interest of a few member states.
As events of the past few years have demonstrated the current proposition and functioning of the Security Council, specific use of the veto has resulted in the deadlock between the five permanent members on the Council, rendering the Council unable to respond globally to global crisis.
Ultimately, the division amongst the dynamic of the five members affected the Council’s legitimacy, thus stressing the need for reform. Although the debate on the reform of the United Nations, in particular, has started almost 20 years ago.
We are looking forward to the implementation of the Ezulwini Resolution that the African Union, AU, has undertaken, which proposed that we needed to really have two permanent members from African countries and also five non-permanent members. But then, you’re quite aware that there’s the G4 also sitting in the United Nations Security Council, they’ve got the other proposal as well, which they said they are looking forward for Africa to be represented by five non-permanent members; which
is not an agreement with the African countries. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms M BARTLETT: Hon Deputy Minister, has the government considered making presentations to the United Nations to adopt institutionalising structure and operations of the Security Council? Do we adequately respond to these conflicts?
And, hon Deputy Minister, will you able to uniformly and without favour do this for us? Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Of course, hon member, you’re quite correct. We are making our input as African countries. You’re quite aware that we have been in the Security Council for some time now as we have ended our participation. But through other African countries we are really trying our best to influence the implementation of Ezulwini agreement as it has a stand now.
So, we are looking forward for the response from the Security Council, but this debate is going on and on; as you’re quite aware that it’s almost 20 years that the reform of the
Security Council has been debated in the United Nations. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Minister, the African group of nations has three seats on the Security Council. In recent years, South Africa has failed to secure AU commission positions and we don’t have continental leadership status we had a decade ago.
If in the unlikely event that the Security Council is easily fooled and the AU gets a permanent seat, how can we expect that South Africa will have the same influence it currently has contending as a sovereign nation and candidate of the A3?
Part of the objection of the current composition of the Security Council is the veto right that permanent members have. These members are often accused of using their veto right to protect allies guilty of human rights abuses.
We know that there are several countries on the African continent, as elsewhere in the world, with a questionable track record in human rights.
Hon Deputy Minister, how will we ensure that should such a permanent seat be granted, whoever holds the AU position will not also use the veto to protect human rights abusers on our continent? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
CO-OPERATION: Deputy Chairperson, the Ezulwini decision is the decision of the African Union. So, any member state coming from the African Union, if secured any seat, whether permanent or non-permanent seat, I think they are going really to echo all the issues that Africans are really keen to discuss.
The member is quite aware that in the Security Council about 80% of the issues and the conflict they are discussing they are from the African continent; most of them are from the African continent.
But in terms of representation and also bringing sense to the Security Council by Africans discussion their own problems from Africa and also putting the solutions that will fit the African community. So, it is lacking.
As you’re quite aware that the United Nations Security Council
has been in that form for almost 70 years. So, this
transformation is really needed because the African continent is not really fairly represented. So, I hope that whoever is getting a seat, whether permanent or non-permanent, from Africa, then those people are going to really represent the sentiments of Africans. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Ngiyakhuleka Mtimande, ngibingelele kuSekela likaNgqongqoshe ngicela ukubuza ukuthi ngabe uhulumeni ...
English:
... genuinely believes in the possibility of transformation of the United Nations Security Council to include the seat for Africa? And if so, what is the basis of that belief? And what has the government done to realize to the objective? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
CO-OPERATION: Deputy Chairperson, as South Africa we believe that we needed to be represented in the Security Council as one member of the African Union.
The African Union had a conference and they took a resolution that they demand that we need to get fair representation as Africa in the United Nations Security Council.
Our proposal to the African Union is that we demand that we need to have two African representations as permanent members with veto powers and also five African members as
non-permanent members in the Security Council. So, the discussion is there, is going on.
Other countries like ... sitting in the Security Council we have the African Union; we also have the countries called the G4 countries.
The G4 countries are proposing that they need not really have to put any African country to have a veto power but to be represented as non-permanent members; which is the debate where we stand now, the decision is not yet there. But Africans want five non-permanent members and two permanent members with veto powers. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Minister, Africa is unable to present a united front on the demand for the permanent seat in the Security Council. This is because of the divisions within the
continent that emanates from our colonial past. The role of France in African affairs is particularly concerning.
What is the country’s attitude towards the destructive role played by France in African affairs? Taking into account the presence of thousands and thousands of soldiers in the continent and the fact that they still control politics and decisions of their former colonies. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
CO-OPERATION: Deputy Chairperson, of course, the hon member is quite correct. We still have countries in Africa that are still colonised and those countries are still really battling to go out of the colonisation that they have. And France, as she is indicating now, has colonised a number of countries and those countries, definitely, are almost not really on the same posture with the African continent because of dealing with issues that are sitting with their colonisers.
But as South Africa we are trying our best that the African Union needs to be respected, whether you’re colonised or not colonised, but you need to respect the organisation that is representing all of us. And we need to also implement the decisions and resolutions that are taken in those forums.
We are looking forward that this debate of the transformation of the United Nations Security Council will continue but definitely, that’s the difficulties that we are having as African countries. Thank you very much.
Question 142:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is fine; you can continue, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson, the fourth stand- alone meeting of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, Brics, Ministers of Foreign Affairs or International Relations held on 1 June 2021 exchanged views on the response to the COVID-19 pandemic sustainable development, reforms of the multilateral system, global and regional peace and security and intra-Brics co-operation. The Ministers reaffirmed their commitment to the implementation of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development in its three dimensions, economic, social and environmental.
The Ministers also reaffirmed their commitment to implement the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and its Kyoto Protocol and Paris Agreement. The Brics Ministers of
Foreign Affairs/International Relations did not address the impact of energy need, supply constrain nor energy co- operation between Brics members. However, in October 2020, the Brics Ministers of Energy adopted the Roadmap for Brics Energy Co-operation up to the year 2025. As part of this roadmap, Brics member state will identify the needs and challenges they face in ensuring energy security and developing their energy industries and determine areas for deepening intra-Brics co- operation in this regard.
South Africa is committed to building back better a greener pathway in the post-pandemic economic recovery. In that regard, the New Development Bank of Brics is funding five South Africans projects worth around US$1,4 billion to the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, and Eskom to support renewable energy and environmental protection project to address South African energy, security and sustainability.
The department has not been informed of any Brics meeting or global commitment which have been negatively affected by power cuts or South Africa’s energy supply constraints. The department and all Brics stakeholders continue to participate actively in all Brics engagement despite the challenges of the
pandemic and energy supply constraints in order to meet its strategic objective which include leveraging South Africa’s membership in Brics to address the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment through increasing trade, investment, tourism, capacity building, skills and technology transfer. I thank you, House Chairperson.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Angithokoze Mhlonishwa uNyambi, ngibingelele nakuSekela likaNgqongqoshe, cha ngibone ukuthi umbuzo ebengikubuze wona uwuphendulile kodwa ke sengicela ukwazi ukuthi ngoba udaba lolu oluthinta i-energy eNingizimu Afrika udaba oluphuthumayo ukuba lusheshe lwenzeke. Singaqala nini ukubona lezi zinhlelo zithela izithelo ezizokwazi ukuba nezisombululo zezinkinga esibhekene nazo lapha eNingizimu Afrika? Ngiyathokoza kakhulu.
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Thank you very much, House Chair. Well, the progress report of these ventures in energy are going to be reported by the Department of Energy. So, I think the hon member heads a question on them next time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Deputy Minster. The next follow-up question is from the hon Mokause. Hon Mokause? Hon Mokause? [Interjections.] We will move straight to the hon De Bruyn. Hon De Bruyn?
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, House Chair. I just want to confirm. Are we still on the question because the programme that I have here has been changed. The next question I am supposed to answer is Question 148.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, we are dealing with Question 142.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: The last programme they sent out was changed. So, I am not on this question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, thanks. Let’s go
straight to the hon Nhanha.
Mr D R RYDER: House Chairperson, thank you. The hon Nhanha does not have signal where he is. May I take his question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): With pleasure, hon Ryder; you can take his question.
Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Nyambi. It’s me hon Nkosi, I am the one who
is going to ask a follow-up question on Question 142.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, you will do that after the hon Ryder. Let’s allow the hon Ryder to speak now. Hon Ryder?
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, House Chair. Deputy Minister, the global agenda is one thing but what about the regional agenda and the impact of load shedding on our neighbours with whom we have cross-border electrical supply agreements. What is the Eskom policy of load shedding doing to our regional relations? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. I don’t have an answer for this one because the energy is under the Department of Energy, so I don’t know what is happening in other countries in terms of load shedding. I only know that we have load shedding in South Africa, I am not aware of what is happening in the region and in other countries neighbouring us.
Mr D R RYDER: No, House Chair, that is not an acceptable answer. I was asking about relations and not about the electricity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Ryder ... hon Nkosi The next supplementary question is from the hon Nkosi. Hon Nkosi?
Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much. The President recently announced that the private businesses will now be allowed to generate power in order to release the burden from Eskom. The question is: What impact will these have on our capacity to realise our commitment in this regard? I thank you, hon House chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, as I have indicated that the Brics bank has just issued financial support of US$1,4 billion to the IDC, DBSA and Eskom in South Africa to support them to come up with renewable energy and environmental protection project to address South Africa’s energy security and sustainability. So, these are the businesses that these institutions are going to fund,
especially the IDC, DBSA and also Eskom. We will also come with another alternative energy so that it alleviates the load that they have now. So, those projects are managed by the Department of Energy which is the relevant department which will give progress report of the successes of these renewable energy. I thank you, House Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokause?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: With due respect ... [Inaudible.] ... it was the hon Apleni who was supposed to take the question. Could you allow the party to do so?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, you are allowed.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, it has become evident that the commitments and agreements made between South Africa and Brics are slowly but surely turned into toothless deals that do not mean anything. Power and energy, besides the recent incident at the Pan-African Parliament, are some of the few examples that prove beyond doubt that we anticipated a breakthrough towards having Africa
choose its partners without any influence from the European colonisers. Is there any clear and decisive deal in Brics partners which advance the powers problems that South Africa and other Africans states face? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Thank you very much, House Chairperson for the follow-up question. I have indicated that the relationship in the Brics institutions is not ... the question was just saying Brics has discussed the issue of load shedding in South Africa and all that. But Brics bank, as part of the product of Brics institutions, is the one that is supporting companies in South Africa for them to really come up with renewable energy to alleviate the problem of energy that we have in South Africa. So, for me that is a very good venture because it comes from Brics countries’ decision and it is also funded by Brics New Development Bank. I feel that this is the support we are looking forward to for us to bear fruit and have better energy supply in South Africa. I thank you, House Chair.
Question 160:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: I am just checking my papers here. Well, thank you very much, Chairperson. The Pan-African Parliament, PAP,
is an African Union autonomous organ hosted in South Africa. I am informed that the South African parliamentary delegation to the Pan-African Parliament correctly aligns itself to the Southern region, in insisting that principle of equitable, geographic representation is to be adhered to.
Consequently, the standing of the South African in the regional politics was not adversely affected. It is unfortunate that on 31 May 2021, the Fourth Ordinary Session of the Fifth Legislature of the Pan- African Parliament descended into chaos due to disagreement about the application of the principle of equitable, geographic and rotation for the appointment of the President of the PAP and the Members of the Bureau of the PAP.
The principle of rotation is embedded on the rules of the African Union. South Africa will continue to provide support to the PAP, in order to enable its responsibility to execute its responsibility in a professional manner that benefits the decorum of the Parliament. I thank you, Chair.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson of the session. Hon Deputy Minister as well, thank you very much for your response. What I want to say is that, what was
experienced in the last session of the PAP is not very good for the African Continent. It doesn’t auger well for the spirit of African renaissance. I just want to establish, what is the standpoint of the South African government into the rotational system that was so van and discussed and debated at the last session of the Pan-African Parliament? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Dodovu. You’re very comfortable in your own lounge. Over to you, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Of course the decisions of the geographic and rotation, is the decision of the African Union. Therefore, the Pan- African Parliament is supposed to implement, as the other member has indicated that as the Continent, the countries in the Continent and all the regions in the Continent, we are not in agreement because we still have got those countries that are still colonised by different first world.
So now, that is the reason that causes issues that have happened there. But as the host country, we will continue to support the Pan- African Parliament, as you quite aware that
we are about to come up with the building of the Pan- African Parliament. So, we are in that motion and we are continuing. So, members that are coming from different region in the African Continent, they must really adhere to the decorum of the House.
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much, House Chair. Deputy Minister, you’ve spoken yourself about professionalism and the decorum of the House in the Pan- African Parliament in your reply. Now, it can’t be right that the representative of South Africa threatens to kill another Members of the Pan- African Parliament. What ... [Inaudible.] ... has planned, and what are the mechanisms to prevent the undermining of these national relations by narrow political interests, which may be seeking to sabotage our international relations?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The full report about what happened and who said what in that Parliament, is still underway to us as the department, but it was uncalled for, for all members that have really brought down the decorum of that House, whether they are delegates from South Africa or delegates from anywhere, that was not correct.
So, that’s why the House has been called off. Now, the House has to resume, which the dater has not been finalised. So, we are looking forward that, all delegates that are sent to that House must really respect the decorum of the House, and also respect the countries that they are coming from. Thank you very much, Chair.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Yebo, Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa Sekela Ngqongqoshe ...
English:
... I would like to know whether our government has launched a diplomatic process throughout Africa to bring consensus to the issue of rotation of leadership of the Pan- African Parliament, in light of the ongoing divisions in the continent regarding the leadership of the Pan- African Parliament? If so, what are the details, and if not, how does the government intends to achieve its goals regarding the rotation of the leadership? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Of course, the consensus has been reached in the African Union session. My
feeling is that, the consensus has been there, that’s why that decision needed to be implemented by House that is hosted by South Africa, the House that belongs to the African Union. So, the consensus was that, we really do need to do rotational because in the forum of the African Union, the members’ states are represented by their state President.
So, for me, the consensus is good enough, because the political heads of Africa have conversed and took that decision. So now, Members of that Parliament must implement the decision of the African Union. Now, they have failed to do so, due to certain reasons that we do not know. Up to now, we are still waiting for the report. Also, the African Union must also sit and look at the issues as well. They will also receive a report and look at the issues as well, then we will hear from them as to how to go forward on this matter. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, as the party, the EFF, we stand with our fearless Commander in Chief and the President of the EFF and those other members who represented us in the Pan- African Parliament, who stood against the bullying of the Francophone countries. The bullying displayed by these Francophone countries during the
last sitting of the Pan- African Parliament is deeply concerning. What role have you played to make sure that our members and others are safe, particularly in the past sitting? We want to understand; what measures have South Africa put in place particularly with regards to the last sitting. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Like I said, we are still awaiting a final report of the happenings of the final Pan- African Parliament. So, we will take action out of that, and we will report back to our Parliament, because we
are the host country. Therefore, we will bring back the report to Parliament so that we look for the way forward. We will also make a recommendation for the way forward. Of course, the bullying has been all over in that House, but I can’t confirm who has been bullied, and all those others, because the report has not been on our table as I’m speaking to you now. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I am standing on a point of order. Those of us who watched on the television, we saw who bullied who there. Is South Africa so afraid to challenge the Francophones, even for the Deputy Minister to come and say
here that, she doesn’t know got bullied? South Africa and its
delegates were bullied.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokause, I know that we missed you and you also missed us, but in terms of the Rules, you are not going to be debating. You asked a question and you got the response. So, that is not a point of order, it’s a point of debate. Let us wait for the report and debate the report at that appropriate time. Hon Deputy Minister, we now move straight to Question 148 asked by hon Michalakis.
Question 148:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Thank you very much House Chairperson, well, the question of the hon member, our response is as follows: Firstly, the department does not have an official who has been found guilty of corruption as I am speaking to you now.
Secondly, for officials who are found to be responsible for malicious damage to state and/or other property in the service whilst in the service, the department is obliged to recover money from the said officials.
Thirdly, where it has been established through investigations or documents at the disposal of the department that an
official has awarded irregular or illegal contract to the third parties, disciplinary steps are taken against those officials in line with sections 38(1)(h)(ii) and 51(1)(e)(iii) of the PFMA. Currently, the department is conducting disciplinary hearing against officials who have committed irregular expenditure in the department. I thank you, Chair.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you, House Chair, Deputy Minister, thank you for your reply. I would like to know from you, in view of your reply, will you therefore support or initiate the inclusion of these actions in the code of conduct for diplomats and the inclusion of a requirement that such individual should be dismissed and criminally charged in the Foreign Service Act? Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Hon member, we really would like to get that information if there is any information that we don’t have in our department. Of course, I promise you that we will take action because we have already taken action on a number of officials that are doing some shenanigans in the department. Thank you very much.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Deputy Minister, on the topic of diplomats, according to reports, SA Revenue Service, Sars, has lost about +- R100 million per month due to the diplomats liquor scandal. My question would be; how would these loses be retrieved from the guilty diplomats and their governments where applicable? And, how would this impact foreign relations? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Chairperson, on the issue that some diplomats are abusing their immunity, we are taking action. Most of them are not really South African diplomats, but are diplomats from other countries who are in South Africa. So, we are taking action. We have got a report. We are processing a report now. We are quite aware that they are using their immunity in terms of their passports to really buy liquor up to a million rand and on immunity.
So now, we have removed the immunity for some of them and we have sent them back home. So, we are doing it country by country. We are assessing all those issues country by country because we have a report that has been presented to us recently. I thank you, Chair.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister for your response. I think we take note of the disciplinary processes that are undertaken by the department and we are glad to hear that the department is taking action against the officials and consequence management is taking place. However, Deputy Minister, has the loses to the department being quantified?
Yes, that is my question. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND
COOPERATION: Chairperson, the loss that we are speaking about is the loss of the country in terms of people that are abusing their immunity in the country. For example, some of the diplomats buy liquor on immunity basis because immunity is not to charge tax or not to charge whatever, at huge amount of liquor and send it to their countries.
So now, the ones that we got a full report on them, we have removed their immunity and we are taking them back home. So, some of the countries are writing to us to say thank you very much and you have done it very well, so we will discipline our own people.
As it stands now, as a department, we don’t have officials
that are part of those people that are buying liquor on
immunity basis. The investigation is going on. We are still looking at all angles. But up to so far, we didn’t lose any budget in our department on these issues. Thank you very much, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister. We have now come to the end of questions to the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister for availing herself and taking questions in the NCOP. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister. [Applause.]
Hon members, I am informed that the Deputy Minister will be standing in for the Minister of State Security. I am welcoming Deputy Minister Kodwa who is standing in for the Minister. We are moving straight to question 161 asked by hon Mmoiemang.
Question 161:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson and good afternoon to all members of the NCOP. The Minister knows the allegation and counter allegations made at a Zondo Commission. The agency fully supports the work of the Zondo Commission and will fully co-operate with any of its request for information.
The agency will further investigate all the allegations and counter allegations made at a Zondo Commission where the agency or its members were implicated. These investigations will cover not only the State Capture Commission allegations and counter allegations but also those uncovered by the agency member themselves.
It is therefore important, hon Chair, that we allowed the Zondo Commission to complete its work without State Security Agency, SSA, speculating or whether the allegations or counter allegations are true or not. Thank very much, Chairperson.
Mr M K MMOIEMANG: House Chair, let me also express my gratitude to the hon Deputy Minister for the manner in which he has responded. Of course, critical to my follow up question, hon Deputy Minister, is the strengthening of the oversight to deal with the perception of the looting of public resources. Now, my question is whether the department will work with the other oversight bodies like the Auditor-General, the Inspector-General of Intelligence and also your Internal Audit Unit and other law enforcement agencies to strengthen the oversight mechanism to close the gaps that have been brought forward? Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, hon
Chairperson and thank to hon Kenneth for the question. We are obligated by law and a Constitution to work together with all oversight bodies, including the Auditor-General, including the Office of the Inspector-General and other bodies established in terms of the Constitution. And we have a good working relations with all the oversight institutions, including Parliament. We will continue to make sure that also internally we strengthen our internal controls, which has been identifies by the High-Level Review Panel in terms of its recommendations of what we need to do. Thank you very much.
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much, House Chair. Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister, the Inspector-General tell the Zondo Commission that, and I am quoting here: Managers turned to misconstrue secrecy and the conditions to use cash to mean that there is no accountability. He said it later, and I am quoting again: There must be an authority somewhere where you go and account. So, this indicates, Deputy Minister, that Inspector-General feels that he lacks the authority to hold the department to account.
Deputy Minister, your department consistently hides behind secret protection to obscured the blocking theft of funds. It
is clear from the Zondo Commission revelations that there needs to be proper regulations and protocols in place to protect your legitimately secret operations and yet to also ensured that secrecy is not abused.
Deputy Minister, will you bring draft regulations to the joint committee, and if so by when, to give clarity to this issue?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: You will also recall, Chairperson, thank you very much that, as part of strengthening internal controls, we have also strengthening Compliance Unit and establish Compliance Unit in the organisation to make sure that the issues about internal controls and the systems that we identified and collapsed over a period of time in terms of the recommendations of High-Level Review Panel, those issues are dealt with.
But we do want to caution members not to pass judgements on the basis of one version presented at the Zondo Commission, which is why in the preamble of this question and answer to this question to the extent that we support the work of the commission, we are prepared to give the necessary support and all the necessary request of information that is required by the Zondo Commission.
But you must remember the mandate of the commission is to enquire here, and therefore, at the end to make findings. And therefore, I don’t think we should prejudge the work of the commission and already make judgements on the basis of one version. And as I said earlier, there is one version and there are counter versions to the version that had been presented.
We shall wait to the findings of the commission but we will continue to do the work internally to strengthen the governance, to strengthen our auditing, including internal controls. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, the former Acting Director-General indicated that the State Security Agency was not aware of what happened to the property, which was purchased worth R1 billion.
While understanding the need for some state affairs to be secret, to what extent that this secrecy allows for this spectacular abuse of state resources. What measures you have put in place to ensure that this kind of corruption is limited from the State Security Agency? Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thanks very much to, hon Mokause. The Auditor-General in terms of its financial
statement has confirmed to us that there is no such amount in the audited statement of R9 billion. That’s why I said earlier, I cautioned against members passing a judgement on the basis of a version because there are counter versions, but at least on this one on authority of the Auditor-General with the oversight has confirmed that there is no such amount in their statement. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, I am listening to what you are saying. Let’s assume there are no allegations. What would your version be? Would you say that there the SSA does not collapse?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: I can say without fear of any contradiction that the agency is made up of men and women. We pledged loyalty to the Constitution of the Republic in terms of protection and preserving national security, peace and prosperity which will make amongst others, South African citizens to sleep, feel free or fear. And these are men and women of integrity, who worked 24/7 to make sure that South Africa, its national security, its territorial integrity and sovereignty is protected.
The few individuals like few apples, one apple in a bag does not make us the entire agency to be rooks. I can assure this House that the agency is well functioning organisation. Of course, notwithstanding the challenges that internally we are dealing with - issues of financial controls. We are stabilising the issues of leadership, for example, which we will deal with it later. But we are now repurposing the organisation to meet its constitutional obligation. Thank you very much.
Question 152:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, the ministerial task team has been established to deal with the implementation of the high level review panel report. Based on the high level review panel report key actions have been implemented to effect the recommendations of the report. The successful implementation of the transformation and the restructuring of the civilian intelligence as per the recommendation of the high level review panel is predicated on the approval and the adoption of the business case. The business case set out the architecture operational and governance models. This seeks to reposition the intelligence in the futuristic path and minimise a disruption to the ongoing performance of the legislative mandate of the service.
A business case for the full restructuring and repositioning of the Operational Intelligence Center, OIC, has been developed and will approve the implementation as per recommendations of the high level review panel report.
The business case makes provision of reconfiguration of structures compliance with legislative mandate and technology upgrade to meet the new interception requirements of the OIC. The OIC is currently restructured to be an independent organisational in accordance with Chapter Six of the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication- Related Information Act, RICA.
Systems and process have set up to capacitate the OIC, to manage its resources and processes independently of the agency. Furthermore, House Chairperson the Intelligence Academy is currently being restructured and repositioned to provide timely innovative, efficient and relevant training to ensure proficiency in intelligent traits, craft.
Counter intelligence management and technology to enable the intelligence to ensure the country’s national interest at home and abroad. A philosophical framework and the turnaround strategy has been developed and adopted. The academy is
currently implementing this turnaround strategy. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, good morning Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Good morning.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Minister, the high level review panel report found that an illegal para intelligent structure called the Principal Agent Network or the PAN was and I quote:
Involved in a serious criminal behaviour even under the guise of conducting COVID-19 work and that this behaviour have involved theft, forgery, fraud, corruption and even bordered on organised crime and this was in a press statement.
In March 2021 the Minister appointed Mr Graham Engel as a Deputy Director of Domestic Intelligence. According to this report was managing the PAN in those years and was suspended for a few years. Deputy Minister, was this person, Mr Engel being vetted before his appointment and if not, why not. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chair, the high level review panel did not only find as per the question of the hon member, it also made specific recommendation about appointing an independent forensic investigation, to look further into these matters, and we will talk about it when we deal with other questions. That the appointment of the external forensic investigation capacity is well underway and it will be finalised soon to deal with this issues. We cannot on the basis of suspicion and allegations that are made against individuals without them being charged and therefore pass judgements. People who appointed at this moment, they are not charged, they are not facing any charges before any court of law. Thank you very much.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thanks Deputy Minister, DM. It’s really encouraging to hear that the department is taking seriously the recommendations of the high level panel. I will like to be clarified whether the department has considered appointing a team of upright dedicated public servants to monitor the implementation of all policies of the department and recommend initiatives to cure problematic areas that circumvent progress within the intelligence community. Thanks House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, thank you very much to hon Nchabeleng, like I indicated the high level review panel report, direct us that amongst other things in its recommendations we must appoint an external forensic capacity and by that process – which will undertake amongst others this work. But I must indicate the point I made earlier, the question asked by hon Labuschagne that we do have this capacity internally, men and women who’ve got expertise internally, but of course time to time we do, I think require external expertise to assist us on certain issues of policy, certain issues of regulation as per advice. But, like I said we are directed, including the Monitoring and Compliance Unit in the organisation which is the matter that at the moment we are implementing. So, we do want to make sure that we are implementing all findings in a very incremental phase, the recommendations of the high level review panel, including the issue of appointing an independent forensic capacity. Which investigate all these matters. Thank you
Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much Ntate Nyambi. Hon Deputy Minister, in line with the high level review panel report on state security, which was published in 2018, and the various recommendations made. Has there been effort including meetings or discussion held with key stakeholders to assess how some of
the recommendations of 2018 have been affected by the COVID-19 and its many impact. So that immediate interventions can be suggested. If so, please clarify these particular efforts.
Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE: Ngiyabonga
kumhlonishwa uNgwezi, ...
English:
... the Minister and the ministry has established the ministerial implementation.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, hon members.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: I am being disrupted now
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Vuyokazi Mnana.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mmoiemang, hon Vuyokazi you can’t be mute. The only person who is allowed not to mute is the Deputy Ministers, DM, now.
An HON MEMBER: Can there be an order in the Northern Cape please.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, not the whole of Northern Cape but ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hey hon Mokause and Mmoiemang, you are protected, let’s allow the DM. Let’s agree that all us must mute and allow the DM to respond to the question of hon Ngwezi. Hon DM, sorry for that you are protected, can you continue.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Hloniphani amakhosi neNgonyam. Ngiyacela akuhlonishwe amakhosi neNgonyama. Bengibuzela amakhosi lapha neNgonyama.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu A J Nyambi): Siyawahlonipha amakhosi, mhlonishwa Ngwezi. Asinikeze uSekela aphendule umbuzo.
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE ELINGAZIWA: Wobani lamakhosi ngaphandle kwethu?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much hon Ngwezi for the question. Indeed, the COVID-19 has been a major disruption. And as you can understand in terms of our working environment as the agency where most of the time we must interact face to face, physically, to the extent that it has interrupted and disrupted our work. But, we have been able to find our way within the new normal. But, I must indicate that having established a ministerial implementation task team we are able to interact with a number of stakeholders, including for example how to deal with issues of vetting in the new normal which obviously will require a different approach and I think going forward hon member we are learning new lessons.
That’s why in the constant changing environment the pandemic imposed on us to think outside the box, in the digital transformation world, how best can we make sure that the new normal we do not compromise the work of the intelligence services. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The fourth supplementary question is from hon Motsamai. Hon Motsamai, are you connected? Hon Mokause, advise.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Can you pass to the next party we will reconnect hon Motsamai now. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Ok thank you.
Question 162:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, hon Lucas.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Deputy
Minister, I’m sorry, good morning and you may continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Good afternoon, hon Lucas. In accordance with section 209(2) of the Constitution the authority to appoint the head of service lies in the President of the Republic. Section 209(2) the President as the head of the national executive must appoint a woman or a man as a head of intelligence service established in terms of subsection 1 and must either assume political responsibility for the control and direction of any of those services or designate a member of the Cabinet to assume that responsibility.
The agency is currently undergoing a restructuring process that will realign its vision, mission, values, operation disposition and product offering in a constantly changing intelligence environment. This will also include repurposing and the repositioning of the agency capacitated with fit for purpose members at all levels. The process of appointing a permanent director-general will be informed by the reconfigured architecture with a repurpose agenda. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson Lucas.
Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, Mama Deputy Chairperson of the House. Hon Deputy Minister, thanks very much for your detail response, it is really highly appreciated. Hon Deputy Minister, what I want to know whether there are other strategic vacant positions that the department will be filling. My question now is how long exactly have these positions been vacant and what impact has such vacancies caused on the overall performance of the department? Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Bebee and hon Deputy Chairperson Lucas, for the question. Let me just say firstly whilst the organisation for the longest time has not had stability because at a leadership
level, it was not because the positions were vacant, in other words there were no warm bodies. For the longest time is that were people were in the acting capacity. We have been able to fill those positions at a top level, particularly to stabilise the both domestic and foreign branch. The two strategic positions obvious is to drive the organisation which was still vacant, not because there is no warm body, but to be filled is that of a director-general and one deputy director-general, DDG, and that of a chief risk officer and their recruitment process on the chief risk officer is well underway.
On the two that I’ve just mentioned I’ve already alluded to the fact that that matter is being handled by the appointing authority, the issue of the director-general, DG. However, I must say that up thus far we have been able to stabilise the organisation to make sure that we fill all the vacant positions. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Deputy Minister, what vetting process will please see to the appointment of the DG, and how will the performance of the DG be monitored?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Well, the performance of director-general as you know that the appointing authority
is the President of the Republic. They sign, among others, the performance agreement with the President and, therefore, their performance based, and I think that we will not be separate from the norm of appointing director-generals. The second one is that all public servants who are appointed including the DG of the service, before appointed there’s a vigorous process of vetting like all public servants at senior positions and that too will undergo that process of vetting. Thank you.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thanks, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, why an important organ of the state dealing with the intelligence on domestic and foreign threats to the country operates without a director-general, such an important vacancy should have been filled immediately if it was declared vacant. Does this not put threat to the country? Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, hon Lucas and thank you very much to the follow-up question from hon Zandamela. Like I indicated it does not mean that there is no body occupying the position in an acting capacity. It’s not vacant in that sense. Therefore, at some point the President would have considered a decision as I indicated before to appoint a permanent DG. However, it does not mean the
organisation has been dysfunctional, there has been people acting in that capacity including now, we have got Ambassador Msimanga, a very capable acting person in that position, and I think he’s giving necessary leadership to the organisation.
And I think we are beginning to see the organisation towards achieving some of the findings and the recommendations of the High-Level Review Panel.
Therefore, there is never been a space where there has been a vacuum because there have been vacancies. In those vacancies there has been acting capacity. However, of course, the instability has been created because to some instances that acting took a little bit long. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Deputy Minister, the Minister had the Mr Jafta dangling as an acting DG for three years after Arthur Fraser was moved to the DG of Correctional Services untouched the investigation until this very day. Yet, the Minister or even the President chose not to confirm his position, admitted Deputy Minister, it was because he presented at the Zondo Commission that he was booted out. A more hands on or pliable DG could continue with a cover-up of the billions stolen gearing Arthur Fraser’s reign, all of which went to the ANC for various things including elections,
and there is another one coming up. Is that perhaps the real reason, because that is the perception in the public eye for the rely in appointing a permanent DG, Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: It is not a reason, it’s not correct, it’s wrong and it can’t be right the fact that somebody has been acting in a position, it was very clear from the High-Level Review Panel Report. When we talk about disestablishment, for example, hon Labuschagne, it was clear that at the end we may come to the determination of one service or we can come to the determination of two director- generals, it’s an issue that the President in terms of implementing the High-Level Review Panel must consider. It cannot be incrementally even before we finalise that process, the President decides to appoint a permanent DG. It is important that what must drive the vision, the repositioning, the mission of the new service and whether to unite one or two DG, it is an issue that at the end the appointing authority will have to determine.
Therefore, it will be incorrect to appoint, but also that appointment cannot be linked to a version of an acting director-general at a time because like I said that we cannot pass judgements on the basis of just one version at a Zondo
Commission. There are counter allegations and some of the disputed facts that have been presented at a Zondo Commission either by Jafta or by other members. So, that is why we say to the extent that we fully support the work of the Zondo Commission, we must wait for its findings, because it is its findings at the end that will determine which version was correct. Thank you very much.
Question 167:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Lucas, we have
noted the allegations and counterallegations made at the State Capture Commission. The State Security Agency, SSA, fully supports the work of the Zondo Commission. Again, we will fully co-operate with any of its requests for information. The agency will investigate will investigate all the allegations and counterallegations made at the Zondo Commission where the members are also implicated.
The investigation will cover not only the State Capture Commission deposition related to the agency, but also those that are covered by the High Level Panel Report as well as those uncovered by the SSA, its members itself.
It is therefore very important to allow the commission to complete its work with the SSA speculating on whether the allegations and counterallegations are true or not.
Chairperson, however, it must be stated that the agency has commenced its own processes of investigating various cases that it uncovered through its own investigations. It has opened a number of criminal cases against those suspected of having committed theft, fraud, corruption and money laundering against the agency. Some of these cases are already prosecuted in the courts of law, whilst others are at an advanced stage of investigation by the Police as well as the Hawks.
The agency in line with the High Level Panel Report, is also in the process of implementing a forensic investigation project. The appointment of the Independent Forensic Auditing and investigation service provider is well underway. The appointment will be finalised following a full supply chain management process and is expected to result in a suitable service provider being appoint soon.
The forensic investigation will assist and track down all the financial and physical resources lost to current and former
members of the agency through theft, fraud, corruption and money laundering.
Furthermore, the agency is in the process of strengthening the internal governance structures that are meant to ensure that internal controls work effectively such as auditing risk committee and other management government structures. As part of forensic bit specifications is the need to make recommendations to strengthen internal controls that are found to have been violated to allow transgressions to take place in the past.
This will further assist the efforts initiated by the Minister to strengthen internal controls and their monitoring through regular performance and financial management reporting. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister: Is your department going to make sure that everyone implicated will account accordingly? If necessary, disciplinary actions be implemented? Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I can assure the hon Moletsane and hon members of this House that the investigation is already underway and the number of cases and a number of members are already facing internal disciplinary actions. We will not defend and no member will hide as a result of that investigation. So, I can assure the hon Moletsane that the investigations will spare no one from internal disciplinary mechanisms if he or she is found to have been on the wrong side of the law. Thank you.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, there has been a long running charade that all the investigations into the activities of the SSA are secret and therefore cannot be made public. However, during the Fifth term of Parliament and when I was at Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, we had the SSA in front of us and we also had the Auditor-General, AG, in the same room. The AG confirmed that matters of the financial maleficent has nothing to do with the state secrets, but had to do with the Public Finance Management Act irregularities. So, therefore your department cannot hide behind the veil of secrecy to protect agents that are in fact just common thieving criminals.
Hon Deputy Minister, from your answers this morning before this question: Are you saying that you will break the shackles of SSA and make these individuals pay for the crimes they have committed and will you make the results of those investigated actions public to all South Africans who by their taxes fund your department? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Lucas, we have
already in our interactions with oversight bodies provided this information. However, equally, the fact that the agency has voluntarily appeared before the Zondo Commission is the indication that we are not using secrecy to hide any information. That is why the public, including the members of this House, are now aware of some of the issued that have been raised. Although we caution against passing judgements on the basis of one version. However, internally we are dealing with those issues. Like I indicated including the fact that we do submit financial statements to the Auditor-General is but one indication that we do not hide maleficent using secrecy. In fact, the fact that we are dealing with corruption, we do not use secrecy and maleficent in the organisation to hide corruption. I can assure you that if that was the perception in the past, that is why we are strengthening internal controls, compliance unit internally, to make sure that abuses
internal controls and the absence of strong - and some of the cases already like I have indicated have been referred to the Police. It is a clear indication of our commitment to fight corruption, wrongdoing and maleficent. Thank you very much.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Deputy Minister has comprehensively responded to the follow-up question that I wanted to ask which was centred around multidisciplinary investigating team. So, I am happy with the response given by the Minister in his main response to the question. Thank you Deputy Chairperson.
Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP and hon Deputy Minister, I think you have covered the first part of the question I wanted to ask. For you said that there are investigations underway.
However, I would also like to know: What measures has the department or rather the Minister put in place to not only ensure independent investigations, but also to guard against the recurring misuse and abuse of state security funds? Thank you
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Lucas and the hon Mhlonishwa Ngwezi that is why I said earlier, hon Ngwezi that internally, we have also strengthened internal controls that in terms of the High Level Panel Report it was discovered amongst others, they have collapsed and there was no adherence. That is why amongst other things we are strengthening compliance unit internally in the organisation for accountability in terms of good governance practices.
Those are the internal issues. That is why at the moment the issues that were identified by the High Level Panel are no longer happening now because we have strengthened the capacity in terms of internal controls. We are improving on our governance structures, but also to make sure that the compliance unit is strong including the Auditing Risk Committees in the organisation. Thank you very much.
Question 163:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Lukas and thank you very much for the question to hon Nchabeleng. The annual financial statements for the previous year 2020-2021 have been submitted to the Auditor-General for auditing within the Public Finance Management Act stipulated timeframes for auditing as required by the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. The agency has opened a number of
criminal cases against those suspected of having committed theft, fraud, corruption and money-laundering against the agency. Some of those cases are already prosecuted in a court of law while others are at an advanced stage of investigation by law enforcement agencies.
The agency is also in the process of implementing the forensic investigation project. The appointment of independent forensic auditing project service provider is well under way, like I said. The appointment will finalise following a full supply chain management. The forensic investigation will assist in tracking down all financial and physical resources lost to current and former members of the agency through trapped corruption and money-laundering. Thank you very much.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Has the department worked out a mechanism to ensure that annual financial statements are submitted timeously with the relevant authorities to make sure that it is easier to pick up the gaps? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Nchabeleng. The agency has already submitted annual financial statement on time. We are committed
to make sure that ... [Inaudible.] ... continued risk management unit get regular reports and are submitted, including continuing on the good progress that we have made to submit annual financial statement on time. We never missed. We never missed a deadline as required in terms of the timeframes and in terms of the law. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Minister, you have mentioned that there are cases that are prosecuted and those that are before the law, the police. Can you mention here; do you have such data as to how many of those are already prosecuted? How many of those service providers are blocked from actually doing business with the agency in future? And, what measures are there in place to recover the lost goods and the monies of the agencies? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much hon Deputy Chairperson, Lucas, and hon Mokause. There are about 25 internal cases that we are investigating internally. There are about - as we indicated during the Budget Vote – there are about five cases that we have opened with the police, some of which are before the courts of law and many are still being investigated. I’m sure there would be more similar cases for fraud, theft and corruption.
However, through the mechanisms that are indicated earlier when I answer the question about the risks, the mitigating factors that were put internally in the organisation in terms of internal controls to strengthening our capacity, we will make sure that all these issues constitute part of the forensic investigation. That will be done by the supplier that would be appointed soon to make sure that the overall investigation of the extent of the issues that have been raised would be investigated including ... I will assume that it will also come with some of the ... [Inaudible.] ... to make sure that these issues do not happen in the future.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, it seems like a continuous circle that the Minister and the department are being advised from the very people who have been part of the looting. A comfortable excuse sometimes is that the Auditor-General did not specify any of it in their report, although there are certain arrangements or legislation that ... [Inaudible.] ... the Auditor-General, AG, from certain parts of the report.
You know and we know that the real problem is that the current legislation is the real reason why mismanagement of funds and other corruption are hidden due to the protection of the
current legislative framework of state security as was found by the High Level Panel Report. When will you announce the legislative reform as a priority to protect the citizens of South Africa against some of their own security officials?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: There are a number, hon Labuschagne. As you know that we continue to engage with this issue at the committee level. There are a number of legislations which are under review which are dealing with some of these issues. You are aware that the ... [Inaudible.]
... for an example as the legislation is now in the Office of the Presidency, which among others deals with issues of this establishment. So, there’s a number of draft Bill, regulations and policy review which is being undertaken internally in the organisation.
I am certain that as a member of the committee, hon Labuschagne, you should be aware about these issues. However, when that is necessary - and I’m not using secrecy, there’s nothing secret about it - the committee will be able to deal with those issues of review of legislation and policies. Thank you very much.
Mr S F Du TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Deputy Minister, with regards to the forensic audit that will be done by an external company, how will that affect the privacy and confidentiality of the items that will be discussed in your department?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Like we said, hon
Lucas, the forensic audit company would have access to all information that they may require necessary in terms of the work that they will be expected to do. So, any information that they will require, they will have access to that information to make sure that they are not hindered in terms of what is expected.
Ultimately, we want to make sure that whatever issues that would have been raised in the public discourse but also through internal investigation are addressed, including the issue of vetting of the service provider, will minimise disclosures. Those issues are very important to indicate upfront. However, that committee or that forensic capacity will have a full access to all information that will make sure that their work is carried out without any hindrance. Thank you.
Question 154:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Lucas, somebody next to me was just being disorganised. The Agency is in a process of appointing a forensic investigation firm. The appointment of an investigating independent forensic auditing, investigation service provider as well underway. The appointing will be finalised following a full supply chain management process and is expected to result in suitable service provider being appointed soon. The forensic investigation service provider as in its term of investigators would be afforded full access to documents and transactions that relate to any matter forming part of their investigations. They will be given full access to potential witnesses and implicated persons. Their investigations will assist to track down all financial and physical resources lost to current and former members of the organisation through theft, fraud, corruption and money laundering. Thank you very much.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, thank you, through you, to the Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, thank you for confirming publicly that your department will go out full access to all evidence. From my experience in these matters that involves having full unhindered access to any person, any building, any device, any foul on that device, full unhindered
access. Chairperson, also I am aware of the facts that one of the companies that we ask to bid on this investigation, we are told that their investigators will be vetted and could possibly face possible disqualification from the investigation. Effectively that means that the State Security Agency will be looking over the shoulder of those investigators which will clearly hinder the investigation. So, the question is Deputy Minister: What would you and your Minister do to take decisive leadership action to ensure that the investigation continues without any unnecessary hindering and make sure that the State Security Agency that were involved in this financial malfeasance are brought to book, as they were the ones to start the trouble in the first place? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Lucas. Vetting of service providers to the agency is part of its constitutional mandate and therefore is not meant to deprive of any service provider or capability of any individual. It is about the issues of integrity, credibility, and disclosure. Therefore, the suggestion shouldn’t be that because any the service provider will undergo this process, the intention, therefore, is to exclude, but to make sure that there is integrity to the process. So, if any service provider
does not meet the benchmark in terms of the scorecard of vetting for example is unfortunate. We cannot compromise in terms of what we expect as the result of vetting. That I can assure members that we would not bypass any process in order to accommodate any service provider. Any service provide that is credible enough will be vetted as per constitutional requirement of the mandate of the SSA.
Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Chairperson, following up on the concerns and questions raised regarding financial irregularities at the State Security Agency and the urgent investigation of these allegations. What measures ... no this question was asked, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes.
Mr X NGWEZI: No, I am covered, Chair. This question, I have already asked this one. I think I was allocated ... what I was not intended to ask. I am sorry, Deputy Chairperson. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: I thought you were raising it for Amakhosi once more.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Apology
accepted.
Mr X NGWEZI: No, no you ask one question not so many questions.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): We will
allow the EFF. It is supposed to be hon Mathevula.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, how are you going to make sure that all these investigations are happening fair and squarely so, without the intimidation of those who are supposed to give evidence, because it is a well-known fact that here in South Africa if you are a whistle-blower anything can happen to you? Is your department willing or have you put measures in place, in fact, to protect those who are supposed to give evidence on all these cases? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Yes, hon Lucas. I can
assure hon Mokause and members of the House, like we said in one question which was asked that a number of cases that are now we have opened cases with police have been uncovered and reported by members themselves. So, we have protected those
members and we will continue to protect whistle-blowers. We will continue to encourage even members internally to make sure that those issues are dealt with. As you know that the inspector-general provides oversight around these issues. So there is no way that the agency or individuals must feel intimidated when they carry out their obligation, as citizens to make sure they contribute to a clean governance and to deal with issues of corruption, malfeasance which will strengthen the capacity and the image of the organisation. Thank you very much.
Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, mama, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, thank you very much. With regard to financial irregularities are these indicatives of a complete breakdown of corporate governance or they are merely administrative failures which the department is able to deal with? Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson, Mama.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, thank you very much to hon Bebee, Mama. Mostly, it is due to few members taking advantage of a system that was weakened in previous management. The agency has since strengthened the controls and such gaps are now closed. I can assure members that indeed it does not indicative of a complete collapse of a leadership,
administration, but, of course, there were gaps which were identified and there were members who took advantage of those gaps. We have now closed those gaps. Thank you very much, members.
The DEPUTY CHAIPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you
very much, hon Deputy Minister Kodwa. The hon delegates, let me continue expressing our appreciation to the Minister and the hon Deputy Minister for availing themselves to respond to our questions and to account to this House. I would also like to thank the permanent and also the special delegates for their attendance. Hon delegates, that concludes the business of the day.
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 13:34
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