Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 12 May 2021
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
WEDNESDAY,
12 MAY 2021
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)
The Council met at 14:00.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Oversight and Institutional Support took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to make the following announcement: All delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system, delegates must at all times switch on their videos because this is live, delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and remain muted at all times, delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones, any delegate who wishes to speak must use the raise hand function, all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room, delegates are required to wear face masks at all times, delegates physically in the Chamber must occupy seats much for that purpose as the case and delegates physically in the Chamber must at all times maintain social distancing of at least one and half meters from each other.
Hon delegates, in accordance with Council Rule 247 (1) there will be no notices of motion or motion without notice. Hon delegates, before we proceed to question, i would like to take this opportunity to welcome the hon Minister from the economic cluster, specifically, the hon Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, hon Mantashe. The hon Minister of Transport, hon Mbalula.
Further, I would like to make the following remarks, hon Ministers, to specifically hon Minister Mantashe and hon Minister Mbalula; the time for reply by the Minister to a question is five minutes, only four supplementary questions are allowed per question, if there is that need. A member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking supplementary question is strictly two minutes. The time for reply to a supplementary question is four minutes - one minute less than the initial five and the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.
I hope it is clear. Hon members, i now invite the hon Minister Mantashe to come to the podium. Hon Mantashe as he is at the podium now i ask the hon Minister to respond to question number 91, asked by hon Modise. Hon Minister.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS - Cluster 4F: ECONOMICS
Question 91:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Thank you very
much, hon Chairperson, hon Chief Whip and the hon members of the NCOP. The first question is about the role the department is playing in reducing accidents, whether any assistance any family member’ victims survival of mine accident. There is a detailed response to that but let me abridge to fit to the five minutes; one the department is having a responsibility to regulate now responsibility to regulate. Now, that doesn't mean that the department itself does not go to a mine to install support structures or do any preventative measures it issues rules and regulations and enforce the rules and regulations. The owner of a mining company does the prescribed measures to reduce the accidents in the mine.
So, the answer to the question therefore is; rules are in place that enforce, for example, it is the only one sector
that is legislated that workers must refuse to render services at a dangerous place. There is no other sector. That provision is now being introduced to the broader legislation but in the Mine Health and Safety Act, that regulation of workers refusing to enter a dangerous place was introduced many years ago. It is part of the rule. So, it is quite a number of rules and regulations that companies must comply with, that is our contribution and enforcement. Thank you very much.
Ms T C MODISE: Thank you very much, House Chair. Should I remove my mask?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, you are allowed to remove your mask for the interpreters and to can read your lips.
Ms T C MODISE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Good afternoon my colleagues and good afternoon Minister. Thank you very much hon Minister for responding to my question. I have a follow up, hon Minister, i see are ... [Inaudible.] ... in making sure that the accidents which were happening previously in the mines must not happen again. My follow up question is, what measures will the department put in place to maintain or improve the current downwards trends we are seeing in the
mining facilities and in health and safety in the mining generally? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: To understand
the impact of the rules and regulations, you will have to go and follow the statistics. In the year 2018, we set a record in terms of the accidents at 73 fatalities, in the year 2019, we slipped backwards, that was 2017, 2018 we slipped backwards to 80, in the year 2019, we improved and set a new record at number 51, at 2020 we slipped back to 60 and all that shows is that though our objective is to have zero fatality in the industry it is a physical situation which we must manage.
Normally, when you are given statistics they will tell you that we are at 53 because there are seven that are categorised as miscellaneous, that is, deaths in the mine that are not ascribe to accidents but i always add those numbers and say that it is 60, we slipped backwards. This is because if you die of a stroke in the mine, there is no rock fall but a heat stroke, therefore, it calls upon us as a department with the sector to go back and plan further how to tighten the regulation of that area in terms of health and safety to reduce the numbers on an ongoing basis. Our objective is zero fatality in the mining industry. Thank you.
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you House Chairperson and thank you Minister. Minister, before I start I want to say that thank you very much for attending the House today. Your presence is much appreciated. Minister, you have answered on the safety in the formal sector but given the ever expanding presence of zamazama miners, particularly in Gauteng, what is your department doing to restrict their activities and to close down their mining operations and keep them closed in order to protect them from themselves, in order to protect the surrounding communities and also to reduce the burden on emergency sector? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon member, the
first thing that we must agree on is that zamazama is not a mining activity it is a criminal activity. Every time they zamazama there is a criminal side and whilst there is a criminal side that is transferred from mineral resources and energy to police. We have been talking to the police to say that the best way of dealing with illegal mining is to set up an illegal mining unit in the police services which can deal in a focused way with illegal mining. We have not succeeded in establishing that. We are continuing to engage to get that.
That would be the best response to illegal mining which is not
a mining activity but a criminal activity. Thank you very much.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I will
take Hon Zandamela’s question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay. Hon Mathevula is standing for hon Zandamela. Continue, hon Mathevula.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, it has been more than 5 years now since the Lily Mine workers in Mpumalanga died following a tragic incident and to this day, their families are still seeking closure. Minister, let me remind you these are people not some equipment as you and the capitalists will want us to think. Yvonne Mnisi, Pretty Nkambule and Solomon Nyirenda; these are sisters, these are children, these are cousins and these are community members.
Did the business rescue practitioners prioritise money over the dignity of these mineworkers? Is the involvement of people like Herman Mashaba with business interests helping their families? and will you apologise today here in the Council to the families of having to wait this long before they can find closure? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Thank you very
much, Chairperson. I regard myself as a veteran of mining. I witness disasters. I was an eye witness to Kinross Gold Mine disaster, I was a witness to the Vaal Reefs disaster, ... [Inaudible.] ... disaster, Hlobane disaster, I can give you the list where i was physically involved. All those disasters were in companies that were privately owned. The state didn't take over that responsibility from the private owners. Hlobani was owned by a private company and all of a sudden the state must take over. That is the one i call occupational hazard of a modern state where there is democracy where the state must take responsibility for recklessness of private owners.
What we are doing in the department is to talk to the investors to reopen Lily Mine. When we say that, we are saying appreciate that there is a container that is in here. Whatever activity we are going to do, will have to take that container out. That work continues. So, i am not sure if i am required to apologise on behalf of a private company. As a Minister of state what should that mean in the real life, that means every time there is a disaster whether it is the Phalaborwa disaster or the West Driefontein disaster, the Kloof Gold Mine disaster
- that we have seen in recent times - it means the state must
come and apologise on behalf of those private owners. I think it is a misplaced question.
Question 110:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: House
Chairperson, Question 110 by hon Smit is taking to the extension of life of Koeberg by 20 years to 2044. And the question is whether the budget is sufficient for the project and if not why not and what are the relevant details?
You must remember that Koeberg is an asset of Eskom. People sometimes forget about that; they think that is just a nuclear asset that is out there. It is not a loose asset; it is an asset of Eskom. Eskom is part of the extension of life of Koeberg because Koeberg is a very important asset there. They provide South Africa with the lowest cost energy today. Leave all the other discussions. Only Koeberg gives the state energy at 40c a unit and therefore the extension of that life is good for Eskom, for the country and good for society.
Therefore, Eskom will actually provide the budget for the extension of that life. But there is an agreement between the department, Eskom, the National Nuclear Regulator on how to go about that extension. It is under way and we have not received
as a department any complaint that there is a shortage of a budget for that extension. It is a necessary extension of life of Koeberg, and we think it will help South Africa in the energy crisis that it is facing.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon House Chair and hon Minister, thank you for coming in for us today in the House, Minister, thank you very much for your answer. We know that nuclear energy, although you say that it is very cheap and the cheapest in South Africa, it is a very dangerous form of power generation if not managed properly.
There are speculations doing the rounds that not all is well at the Koeberg power station and that it poses a risk to the surrounding communities if anything serious might go wrong. There are talks of it running at a higher temperature than it should. Can you please assure South Africans that their safety and health is assured and that you will personally take responsibility for any casualty in this regard?
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chair,
Koeberg is an asset of Eskom. Eskom is falling under the Department of Public Enterprises. Now, it does not make sense for a different Minister to take responsibility for an asset
in a different Ministry. Now I am asked today to take personal responsibility for an asset that is in the Department of Public Enterprises, from the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. It does not make sense; it is not logical.
But the reality of the matter is that there is no history of Koeberg being a danger to the surrounding communities. There will be incidents like in any other entities, but it is not Chernobyl. It is Koeberg that we are talking about; it is in the Western Cape. It has not had that history of massive disasters around it. We are hoping that it will continue to be safe, and I hope Eskom will continue maintaining that safety record of Koeberg because it is a very important asset.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Hon House Chairperson, Minister, do you agree with me that to address these challenges the state needs to take strategic control of South African minerals and petroleum for the benefit of all? We are saying this because mines like Ivanplats in Mokopane are failing to provide communities such Ga-Magongwa and Tshamahansi with boreholes.
Mines like ArcelorMittal mine in Thabazimbi are failing to assist the community of Regologile with water. Exxaro in Lephalale is failing to assist the community of Marapong
Extension 1 to 4 with water, but they benefit from all these communities.
In mines ... it is like this ... we even that there is no benefit for the community. Shouldn’t the state be running these companies that are running these mines for the benefit of the public and not for profit? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Chairperson ...
Xitsonga:
Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. Ndzi khensile swinene.
English:
You know, one of the things I discovered with mining that now after many years now I’m a Minister is that everybody wishes for it to die, they want to kill it. It must not exist. It is too dangerous, too difficult, too diseased, too dirty and dangerous. So it must not exist. I do not subscribe to that approach. I think mining contributes effectively to the economy. The first thing for the mining industry to fulfil the needs of the surrounding communities it must be operational, profitable, have money to spend on the needs of the communities. But if we think we can kill them and still
benefit, I think we are saying one plus two is zero. It is wrong mathematically, arithmetically.
We must sustain the mining industry. We must make it operate profitably, effectively, so that it can meet the needs of the communities. Actually, if you are following mining communities, you see the systematic change that is happening in terms of money spent on development of those communities.
That is why if you go to Barberton, we will be delivering a health clinic there, it is a department of health built by the mines. We will do the same in Middelburg and everywhere because the ... [Inaudible.] ... is changing and that mining companies need a social license to operate profitably in communities where they are mining. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, Minister, I hear when you say that Eskom is responsible for Koeberg; it is an asset of them, but it generates energy. With the lifespan of Koeberg nuclear power station being discussed, please indicate what the current status of the containment buildings are. These are the outer shells of the reactor buildings built as pressure vessels to withstand the pressure if the reactors inside them
ever malfunction and therefore prevent harmful radiation been leaked into the environment.
And also indicate if a detailed report on the chloride damage to the concrete reactor containment domes as well as the alleged damage to the stainless steel used in the structures of this plant, without these redactions, as opinion, and sensitive technical information in the report will be submitted to this House as soon as possible. Thank you, Minister.
Mr C F B SMIT: House Chairperson, on a point of order: My apology, House Chair, I am just worried in terms of the Rules, in terms of the follow-up questions are ... not to this member but the previous member, that you allowed the Minister to respond to what was totally not relevant to the original question. So I just want clarity in terms of, you know, is it going to be acceptable to ask any question as a follow-up question from now on?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am happy that you are referring to the previous one. But in terms of the Rule of the House, if as I explained that the question must be linked to the original question. So we just leave it to the Minister
whether to comment. But Minister must have heard that is not linked when he was commenting, so he has correctly dealt with it in an appropriate way in terms of the Rule of the National Council of Provinces. But now I will allow you, hon Minister, to deal with the question asked by hon Du Toit.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Chairperson, my
coming to the NCOP is that I want to contribute as much as I can to the body of knowledge that is required by the NCOP. That is why I tried to answer even questions that are irrelevant. That is informed by my desire to contribute to the body of thinking of the NCOP.
Now again, the question that was asked now, as I said, in the first answer, Koeberg is an Eskom asset. Eskom is in the Department of Public Enterprises. Now to be asked to give detailed answers on Koeberg safety and other issues is actually a question that should be shelved for the Department of Public Enterprises to come to the NCOP and answer questions about Eskom. They will deal with the issues of Koeberg. That would be my response, hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I can see that hon Labuschagne is enjoying the privilege of being closer to the podium.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chairperson and thank you, hon Minister, will the extension of the Koeberg power plant assist in the general stability of electricity supply in the country? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson,
Koeberg is a part of the supply of energy in South Africa. It is not one of those plants that give us problems in terms of unreliability of power availability. Therefore, if we extend the life of Koeberg by 20 years, at least we have some 20 years guaranteed of a sustainable supply of energy. Thank you very much.
Question 93:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chair, hon
Matibe is asking about the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, MPRDA, and other pieces of legislation that are meant to promote local beneficiation. If they are assisted beneficiation, beneficiation is value additional. That’s what it means. It is called with a big name called beneficiation,
simple meaning value addition. Now, value addition goes beyond mining because mining is exploration where you find the minerals, mining engineering, where you build a mine, meteorological processes where you separate a mineral from the rock and that is the end of mining activities.
Beyond that begin the question of value addition whether it is diamond cutting, whether it is creating a raisin gold or in platinum that takes place beyond mining. It requires co- operation of various departments and facilitation of the work of value addition.
And in doing so, it must be attractive as a business in the value chain because if it’s not attractive as a business in the value chain it is not going to attract people who will invest in beneficiation. And that’s why we always complain about, for example, if the price of electricity goes through the roof it discourages beneficiation and you will find people taking raw commodities to Asia ... [Interjections]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mkiva, please mute.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Okay, then when
they get it to Asia, Asia add value to it and bring it back as
complete goods. We should deal with all the challenges facing us in terms of beneficiation. Pharmacist which are close must be opened. If we can’t open them, we are low at the beginning of beneficiation. My view is that beneficiation will not be done by just a legislation. It should be done by creating conducive environment around beneficiation. Thank you very much.
Tshivenda:
Vho T B MATIBE: Ndi masiari Vho Minisita.
MINISITA WA MUHASHO WA MINERALA NA FULUFULU: Avhudi. [Zwiseo.]
English:
Mr T B MATIBE: Thank you very much for the response. Indeed, the issue of beneficiation will assist a lot in terms of job creation into our economy looking at the high level of unemployment and I fully agree with you, hon Minister, that it will be a collaboration of different departments including department like the Department of Trade and Industry in the economic cluster, all of them. And I think that will indeed assist So, I think part of what I needed to ask has been answered very well. But just want you to expand the hon Minister if indeed that collaborating happens between those
different departments, how will it assist in terms of creating employment for our people more specially our young people?
Thank you very much, Minister.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson,
there is no debate in South Africa about benefits of beneficiation. We all agree. We always can accelerate beneficiation. But what is required is for us to work together in creating the environment for that beneficiation. And I think the end report on me. I am very passionate about that is that the price of electricity as I price must be regulated such that it is electricity generation for industrialisation.
Once we do that then beneficiation will take off. If we can intervene on the price of electricity when it is already high, we give 15% increase to Eskom through court rulings. We must know that every time we give 15% increase over a price of electricity, we are reducing the opportunities for beneficiation. Therefore, the state, a collections of departments must intervene and regulate that price for industrialisation. If we can’t do that we are neglecting our responsibility for job creation. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): Thank you, hon
Minister. Minister, the second follow up question is from hon Mathevula on a virtual platform. Hon Mathevula? Hon Mathevula? Hopefully she is not failed by the network as is always the case in that part of Limpopo. Any other person that can stand in for hon Mathevula if she is struggling. If we don’t have that arrangement, then we can take the next follow up question. I hope hon Ngwezi is not struggling. If he is still struggling, then we can take hon Smit who is in the House. Hon Smit?
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair. I will first respond to hon Matibe to say ...
Tshivenda:
... ndaa! Ndi masiari.
English:
Hon Minister, beneficiation is one of those policies that sound good. But it is only good if it happens naturally because there are obvious economic benefits. When government tries to force it by regulation it will raise costs for miners and cost the loss of mining jobs. You can’t argue with economic reality. The iron and ore laws of economics say you
get nothing for free. The ANC think you can get beneficiation jobs for free knowing the mining jobs that will be lost through rate cost.
But I heard that you have addressed the issue on cost but the problem is actually most of us we don’t have power even for establish parts of the economy when government believes we will need taking power ships for 20 years just to give us an emergency supply for electricity. Where does this government believe we will find sufficient electricity to bring significant beneficiation? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson,
I also see the smuggling of different question into the question. That’s why you asked that question earlier. He want us to smuggle this question. But let me deal with it.
Firstly, there is no economic activity that is natural. Every economic activity is a function of an entrepreneur planning for it. An entrepreneur can plan for it out of engagement, out of discussions and the state has that responsibility of actually promoting the effectiveness of beneficiations as an economic activity. That’s why I said earlier, which you didn’t listen to me. I said for beneficiation to be accelerated it
should be economically attractive in the value chain of mining and value addition. And what I mean is that if it is profitable enough entrepreneurs will invest in it. That’s the first question.
The second one is that beneficiation is not a question of a wish list. It’s a question that many countries do and increase their economic activities. You know, one-time China imported raw commodities added value and send back and the economy drop to 4,3%. They took a decision to open up the western side of China and out of that the economy picked up 14,6% and they had what is called economic heating. Now, it is not natural. It is because there was an intervention that send the situation around.
The problem with South Africa is that we are suspicious of governing and we think that governance is a bad thing and we should allow free market to go on its own and even the most conservative economists knows that free market requires state intervention from time to time. Now, we fear that in South Africa.
Now, you talk of power ships. It is worrying me when we discuss the power ships even before the question of getting
their contract signed and we discuss on how we know and we say we want emergency power. When we do assessment, we give you emergency power. You begin to attack the facility to give emergency power. And when we don’t get those emergency I can tell you when I come back here you will say where is emergency power. At that point you would have forgotten that you shut down some of the aspects of emergency power. What is in Turkish invention today give us an opportunity that a subsidiary which works with the Turkish power ships can understand that in 20 years we may have South African power ships.
So, there is nothing that comes to you because you are sleeping and you are watching. Things comes to you because you intervene, you take an active interest, you participate and you invent.
So, science and technology is about invention. Invention is about learning from others. That’s why Chinese that they have no nuclear technology in few years ago. Today they have a perfect nuclear technology because they learned from the United State, France, Russia and South Korea. They send thousands and thousands of young people. Now they have their own technology. In South Africa we fear venturing into the
unknown and you cannot be innovative if you fear venturing into the unknown.
Question 90:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Arnolds is
asking us issues of Eskom role in the electricity sector and the financials interfaced by the nation power utility. Our response is the shortest on this question: The department looked into this question, reviewed it against the mandate and has determined that the most appropriate respondent should be the Department of Enterprises. We don’t deal with anything that has the word ‘energy’ in it. Eskom falls under the Department of Public Enterprises, the DPE. It is the DPE that must deal with those issues of Eskom.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: With due respect to the Minister. I hear what he says. Can we, in the Whippery, sort this out because previously when we raise a question to the Minister, the Minister’s office comes back and say that this question should not be directed to his department, but it should fall directly to another department, so that we can sort out whether it belongs to that department before the end in the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am happy how you are raising it. It belongs to the structure you are referring to. The Whippery is going to be able to assist the House so that we do justice to it. We are not going to be engaging on it now. The first opportunity after the explanation given by the hon Minister, I will give it to hon Arnolds.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, House Chairperson. Yes, Minister: You are going to answer this question because you need to count for your own executive portfolio. So, we want an answer from you! We demand an answer from you! Now, the question of electricity has become one of the most pressing issues facing the South African economy and its recovery. Our local economic recovery and growth prospects depend on sustainable electricity being placed at the top of the agenda. Eskom is right in the middle of the State Capture inquiry as millions have ended up stolen through widespread mismanagement and corruption. Now, Minister: Is it true that Eskom management is refusing to deal with Karpowerships SA and that your department facilitated the bid; why is your department best placed to facilitate the bid of the procurement when Eskom is the buyer; and lastly, was your wife or her associates involved in any way. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: I don’t know how
is hon Arnold going to force me to answer a question that belong to another executive authority. I don’t know how he is going to force me. Eskom is in DPE. Energy is with me, excluding Eskom. Now, let me tell you, because you follow newspapers and speculation, even articles written ‘as’ - a failed bidder making the follow-up accusations: Do you want me to answer here?
Even court papers: We will deal with that in the court papers, but I can assure you, hon Arnolds, that when you go through that court process, you will discover that my wife doesn’t even smell close to that process. Actually, she has no clue about energy. She is a nurse and she has worked in the mines. Mining, she knows. Energy she has no clue. You will discover that at the end of that process. Okay?
So, I don’t know what do you mean when you talk of associates and when you talk of familial. I read it in the newspapers like you. I can’t answer you, but the real truth of the matter is that Eskom is in DPE; and it is not in the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, DMRE. If you are asking about the embedded generation to supplement the shortage of energy,
I would give you a full answer, because embedded energy is managed by our department and Eskom is managed by DPE.
So, I don’t manage anything that is called energy. If you talk embedded energy, and you talk of emergent procurement and all those things, you will get an answer from me. However, if you ask about Eskom, you will have to go to DPE. That is where that entity is in terms of portfolios and in terms of executive authority. Thank you, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members. I sustain the point of order raised by the hon Labuschagne in relation to the issues of Eskom because Whippery can do justice in assisting us to make executive members to account when they come here. There is nothing that is stopping the NCOP to have both Ministers in a day, in one room, as and when we want to discuss energy and Eskom matters. I am appealing to the few that will be making follow-you questions, so that we make up that separation. I have sustained that point of order as made by hon Labuschagne. The next follow up question is from hon Ntsube, who is on a virtual platform. Hon Ntsube!
Mr I NTSUBE: Hon House Chair, I can see that people are trying by all means in order to find expression. However, I am
covered by the response of the Minister, and I think that the question should be referred to the Minister of Public Enterprises. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I think for the fact that the original question is not relevant to the department: It is counter-productive to ask a follow-up question.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, let us hope that this fits in. Minister, with the President signing legislation that allows for alternative energy to be incorporated into the grid to assist with electricity need in South Africa, since the power utility can’t deliver to South Africa’s electrical demand: When will the power utility be ready? No, let me rephrase that to make it appropriate to your Ministry: Do you know when the alternative energy that is being generated will be able to be incorporated into the grid?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Even though I know very well that the ... [Interjections.]
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, it is very difficult! I mean, energy is energy. I know energy is not as you said at the Eskom, but the
two take hands. I mean power and generator ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, the question is correct, but the danger is that - as hon Smit summarized it - is not linked to the original one. However, I will leave it to the Minister to deal with it. Hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: What will help
the NCOP is for members of the NCOP to follow developments. If they follow developments, they will know how far we have gone with Bid Window 4, up to now. They will know that we are now in the process of fair-link opportunities for Big Window 5.
They will know that in August, we will start processes for Big Window 6. They will know that in February, we will start processes for Big Window 7.
Then, if they know that, they will have a sense of when that energy will come to the stream Also, they will know that we have actually agreed and nation. They will know that we are requesting proposals for the 11 813 Megawatts from various sources of energy. When they follow that, they will know that at this time we are expecting to have an amount of energy from renewables. Out of that, they will see that 6 000+ Megawatts
is from renewables. They will also see that there is a 3000 Megawatts expected from gas. They will know that there is 150Megawatts expected from coal. They will know all the breakdown of the various technology of the 11 813 Megawatts.
So, once you follow that, you will have a sense of staggered coming to the grid of energy. If you are following the developments, you will know that at least the first mining company has been given a licence for self-generation of 40 Megawatts, and we are encouraging all the mining companies to come. We must give them money to build energy for self- generation, to connect to the grid and trade with the surplus. However, if you want to do self-generation, for own use only, there is no limit and there is no need for a licence. In that way, we will have a staggered entrance of the energy to the grid.
I am talking now outside of Eskom: When you have a unit of Kusile commercialised, there is an amount of energy that goes to the grid. I don’t get into those details! When you move Unit 4 Additional and Medupi, it is the same. I am leaving that as part of the Eskom answer when you invite the DPE. Thank you very much.
Question 109:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Ncitha is
asking us about the process of installing national solar water heaters, I call them solar geysers. Whether sufficient training and installation [Inaudible.] First of all, when I was talking to the department about this question I said; the most honourable thing to do about solar geysers is to admit openly that this is a disaster that we inherited, it’s our disaster now. We cannot continue blaming our predecessors about it. It’s on our table and we must deal with it.
Eighty-seven thousand solar geysers were in storage. We have taken all those solar geysers out of storage to the various municipalities. Out of eighty-seven thousand just over seven thousand of those solar geysers have now been installed in a programme to rectify that disaster. The DG and I fight almost every Monday and say seven thousand out of eighty-seven thousand is a drop in an ocean. We must accelerate these and we discovered a number of problems that came up.
One, they were put there and nothing was done and we suspect that part of the money was a slush fund. We have lodged an investigation into that and we want to get details to it.
Number two, we discovered that many of the sub-contractors subcontracted to install them have no skills to do so. They need further training for them to do it. So, we are sitting with a disaster in our hands and we must sort out that disaster hon Ncitha. Thank very much.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you hon Chair. Let me thank the Minister for the respond to the follow up question and I also appreciate him for giving us the challenges that they are facing in terms of installing the solar geysers. But, what I would like to know now is as he outlined that they have identified that there are some people who don’t have proper training to do the actual work, just to check how far is the department in terms of training such people, how many have they trained already or when are they starting to train those people? Thank you very much Chair.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Chairperson,
the fact that close to ten thousand of those solar geysers have now been installed reflect small progress that we are making in training those sub-contractors and give them the task to install solar geysers where it is necessary.
So, we are watching that space very closely. We have monitored the sub-contractors that are not skilled, training is ongoing and we will continue doing so until we resolve the problem. At this point in time, what we have agreed to do is not to come to the NCOP and paint a beautiful picture that it is going to happen now.
It’s a disaster that we inherited we are busy trying to sort
out. Thank you very much.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, we have communicated to the Table that we withdraw from the follow up question from hon Apleni.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): Thank you hon Mathevula.
Ms C VISSER: Minister, taking into consideration that corruption and fraud going on in South Africa and the postponing of the national solar heaters programme for the past four to five years to train installers which clearly shows a lack of planning and foresight, how much did your department spend on the storage costs over the past four to five years? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Chairperson,
you know when you fight with a coloured and you slip and fall, [Inaudible.] beat you to death on your floor.
I am saying, I’m the portfolio for less than two years, I’m in the portfolio for less than two years. What we inherited is a disaster and one of the disaster generated is the solar geyser programme and we accept. We reported here when I started in the portfolio that, that storage programme cost the department R219 million. I am describing that as a slush fund.
Therefore, accepting that there are many things that are not explainable to that cost but I am saying, we are now attending to it. I will quantify the progress we are making every time we make that progress and I will also come and account on the obstacles and the failures that we come across as a department.
So, work is under way to get that right and the question of that money flowing out, one time they came to me and said for this year we have budgeted an amount of R73 million for the solar geyser programme. I said to them, I do not want you to tell me that programme in financial gaps. I want a report in terms of the number of the solar geysers that are on roof tops
because that’s the only way you can quantify progress. It’s not about the money spent. Money in this case is a blunt tool. The real tool is measurement of performance and that’s where we are at this point in time. Thank you.
Question 94:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: The starting
point is, hon Du Toit must disabuse himself of equating transformation as costing benefits. He must disabuse himself of that. One of the important things about transformation, is to expand the pool from which to fish. And we must not be ashamed of that, and must not be apologetic of that. We must accept it and deal with it and appreciate that transformation is necessary. You know, in my other portfolios, I was asked this question and I said to them, transformation is not about destroying jobs and economic growth. It is about recognising black competence and black excellence, and include them in the pool of skills that we need for any sector to grow. Up to now we are succeeding in doing that.
Therefore, the Legislations that are in place, whether it is the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, MPRDA, or the charter, all of them create an environment for the mining industry to grow and remain competitive, while ensuring that
the mining industry transforms. So it is not growth or transformation, is both transformation facilitates growth, because you have a bigger pool, to fish for.
I do not know how many people remember this. You know, in 1994, hon Chairperson this country, had never had an Afrikaner as a Chief Executive Officer, CEO of a mining company, in 1994. Not one, all the Afrikaner CEOs you see today are beneficiaries of change. But in the process we have also produced female CEOs in the industry, not as window shopping, but competent CEOs who are female. You know, I was talking to one Afrikaner female, Ms Viljoen and I said to her if it was not for change and transformation, you wouldn’t be a CEO, she laughed it. But the reality of the matter is that, up to 1994, white females were personal assistant, PAs. Today, they are part of the transformation, they are benefiting. Black South Africans are benefiting. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: House Chair, Minister, would you agree that the mining sector is currently under severe pressure? I know that the exchange rate is currently in favour of the mining sector, since we are selling in dollars, but it’s a fact that a lot of the mining houses are closing down some of its shafts, and also the restrictive regulations has an impact on
the mining industry. How does your department assist the mining industry to thrive that you contribute to job creation and financial growth? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: House
Chairperson, even after COVID-19 lockdown, you will discover that mining is not one of those sectors that have retrenchments all over, because we work with the industry, we scale up the production and that’s why in quarter three of 2020. The lead department on economic reconstruction and recovery was my league. It continues to contribute positively, and it is going to continue contributing positively in the first quarter of 2021, because we work together, we appreciate the importance of the role of mining in the economy.
So, I do not want to answer questions that are dealing with speculation and feelings, because we are dealing with the sector directly hands on. You know, in the last two days I spoke to a few CEOs, congratulating them for the performance, and I said to them I am not assessing their performance in terms of sales, because sales will reflect price as well. I assess presales and I assess production and productivity. When you improve on both of them, I know that the industry is taking good shape. Many said to me, good price will attract
and increase productivity. That is economics 101. When prices are good supply increases. What is wrong with that, because commodity prices by their nature are surgical.
Now, when there is a good circle and the mining company of South Africa take advantage of that, there is nothing wrong with. That is what should happen. So I am one of those people who believe that transformation contributes positively to the economy. Thank you
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, House Chair, good afternoon, Minister. Minister, have you taken note or investigated similar best practice beneficiation schemes from around the world or not, especially such as the new Norwegian Oil Fund, in order to see if they would find any application in South Africa. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: House Chair, I
do that every day, ok, but I do not focus on Norwegian, I focus on investment in South Africa. I am excited by the increasing investment by Anglo in South Africa, particularly in the platinum sector and iron ore sector, that excites me.
I am excited by the increasing investment by Sibanye, and opening up of closed shaft in Marikana, that excites me when you begin to see a number of those - I do not want to even talk about the Australian investment in the copper mines in Northern Cape. You can have a lot of those. Once you look at the investment, you are helping yourselves not to be depressed, because some Norwegian Fund has a view about your country. You will r pay you attention to the developments in your country and they will excite you all the time.
The fact that production in mining has improved that excites me, the fact that mining is performing well for three quarters in a row now, helping taking South Africa out of the longest recession, excites me. And the fact that Moody’s, wouldn’t pronounce for South Africa because they see all the positive sides, but they want to ensure that, they are sustainable.
Our responsibility is to do the right thing, sustain the positive developments for Moody’s, to take us out of the junk status and make us an investment destination of choice. So, once we do that, it will help us do much better as an economy, not just one investment fund in Norway. But the overall performance of the economy. But I can see you are shaking your head because you are obsessed with Norwegian investment, I am
obsessed with investment in South Africa. Our team, get enquiries from Canadian investors every day. They are coming in and we are working with them. Thank you, very much.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: House Chair, we have communicated again with the table to withdraw the hon Zandamela for asking the follow up question. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): Thank you, hon
Mathevula. The last supplementary question to you, hon Minister is from hon, my mama. Hon Bebee, mama.
IsiZulu:
Nk L C BEBEE: Angibonge baba.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I love you, mama.
Ms L C BEBEE: I love you too, baba.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga kuwena, Sihlalo weNdlu, wanamhlanje, ngiyabingelela kuwena Mphathiswa Womnyango Wezimbiwa, sawubona. Siyabonga ukuthi uyichaze kahle inkulumo yakho nontabakayikhonjwa
bakuzwile kodwa manje sengifuna ukuthi ngiyihumushe ukuze uyiphinde kahle bayizwe.
English:
Has there been meaningful transformation in the mining industry since the advent of democracy ngiyabonga baba [thank you, sir.]
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga, baba nawe Mphathiswa Wezimbiwa
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I love you, mama,
Ms L C BEBEE: I love you too, baba.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANDLE NEZIMBIWA: Ngiyabonga, mama.
English:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES: Okay, you know,
transformation of the mining industry is not a theoretical issue, it’s a practical issue. When I talk about transformation, I always remind people that in 1987, the black
person was not allowed to access the blasting certificate, which is a basic qualification for mining. Blasting was reserved for a schedule person, which means a white person. Now, following the strike in 1987, blasting certificate was open for black persons. That is why every mining engineer in South Africa will be qualified post 1987 - is a product of a very long strike.
Now, when you begin to see a number of those engineers coming through, the industry, play different roles. Before you talk numbers, you see the change. Today over 75% of miners are black in South Africa, people with blasting certificate, thus progress.
In a research that we did recently we discovered that all the major companies do not have less than fifty percent black managers, all the major ones. And in assessing that we said where is the change? We discovered that the change happens faster in the top echelons of management. And we asked the question, why is that the case? We discovered that is because at that level you can recruit skills from somewhere else and beef up your numbers, but progress is being made.
Number two, we looked into ownership, a company called Exxaro, which is a combination of a former state-owned company and former black company merged together, has more than 30 black ownerships. It is managed by black managers. It is going to appoint a black female CEO in few weeks’ time. To me that is change. There is a first female, a CEO in De Beers, black and female, that’s promise. Anglo platinum, there is a female CEO, that is progress. I can give you that list. And managers who are doing various roles in the industry are actually coming from a background that is not noticeable.
I look at companies, I talked about Exxaro, if you look at the company that is fought everyday called Seriti is the biggest coal supplier of Eskom, is a black company. When it is a black company, many people in society going to say that is concentration, but if it’s a white company that does that, is a good business. It requires bravery and ability to absorb the pains.
I do not want to talk about many young companies in the mining industry that have emerged and establish themselves. That change will be quantified, we will be coming back and give you the quantity. After I suggested House Chair, that we must have an evening of Black Economic Empowerment, BEE beneficiaries,
one evening we doing wine, we talk together, we look at them not as numbers but as human beings, because only then will we appreciate the progress we are making. Thank very much.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson! Chairperson!
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Mutshamaxitulu, tanihi manana loyi a nga muaakatiko wa AfrikaDzonga, a ndzi lava ku byela Holobyenkulu leswaku hi lava ...
English:
... 50% representation of women not just one woman.
Xitsonga:
HOLOBYE WA SWICELWA NA ENEJI: Hi khensile swinene, Mutshamaxitulu. Xana Mathevula u lava yini? [Va hleka.]
MUTSHAMAXITULU WA YINDLU: (Tat A J Nyambi): Ha khensa.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): Hon members, we have now come to the end of the question to the Minister Mineral Resources and Energy, hon Mantashe. I would like to thank the hon Minister Mantashe for availing himself to answer questions
in the NCOP[Applause.] ... [Interjection.] Thanks hon Minister. We normal say we don’t give praise for a fish for swimming but we can always give credit where is due. When we see you and your Director General, DG Mokoena coming to account in the NCOP, we appreciate that. Thank you. Hon members, hon Minister of Transport, is on virtual platform hon Mbalula. I now welcome hon Mbalula, call him to respond to question 104, asked by hon Ncitha and my other hon mama, Deputy Chair Lucas will be taking over, hon Mbalula.
Question 104:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chair and hon members, the Comprehensive Maritime Transport Policy, referred to as CMTP was approved by Cabinet on 10 May 2017, after consultations with the relevant stakeholders. The CMTP further makes provision for the development of a coastal shipping agreement, which will be a key deliverable with regards to the implementation of the policy.
The development of the coastal shipping agreement will assist developing maritime trade within SADC region as a starting point towards promotion of an integrated maritime strategy for the continent and the African Union 2063 agenda. The Department of Transport, through the maritime branch setups
meetings with coastal SADC countries to present the draft concept paper on coastal shipping, for their consideration and comments. The consultations were also intended to create relations with the aim of information sharing at a technical level, and emphasise the importance of collaboration with regards to coastal shipping.
The following embassies were consulted: The Republic of Seychelles, the Republic of Namibia, the Republic of Tanzania, the Republic of Angola, Republic of Madagascar, Republic of Mauritius and the Republic of Mozambique. The embassies were receptive to the initiative from the South African government of developing a coastal shipping agreement. It was agreed that the SADC region will benefit from trading with one another through coastal shipping.
It was, however, agreed that, in terms of sequencing, SA sequencing must first develop its own national coastal shipping, which is referred to as a Cabotage regime, that focuses to preserving and promoting the movement of South African port system cargo within South African Economic Exclusion Zone, EEZ, that would track the ship ownership and promote the ship registry regime that black South Africans can benefit from. I thank you, Chair.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Through you, Chair, let me thank the Minister for quite an elaborate response, and I am quite happy that there is quite a progress that the department is doing in terms of this very important objective. Chair, what I would like to know, in order for us to make the Minister accountable, is the timeframe. How far are they to achieve this objective?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, the timelines that we have outlined in terms of this process is from 2023 and 2024. We will be putting out a tender for the development of a coastal shipping strategy for 2022-23, we will set up consultation programme for maritime stakeholders to present the regional coastal shipping concepts for their respective countries in 2022 and 2023. The first draft of the coastal shipping should be finalised by 2023-24. The national agreements will be signed and published for implementation as well in 2023 and 2024. Overall, we are looking at 2024 to complete this particular process. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Through you Chairperson, Minister, what lessons, if any, did you learn from the European Short-Sea Shipping, SSS, model, that has energised and boosted this mode of transport to the point where it is responsible for 37% of
all cargo movement? If not, why is the Minister’s department ignoring the fact that shipping is by far the most cost- effective way of moving cargo in the SADC region?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: We are not ignoring any model, and
we are learning from everybody, as you would have seen in terms of the timeframes. We are operating in the absence of
policy and we believe in our own strategy more than any other person, and we learn from the best. We are not opposed to the
European model in any event, House Chair. Thank you, Chair.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chair, we have communicated with the Table that they must withdraw the follow-up from hon Apleni. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you
very much, hon Mathevuls, or is it ...
Tshivenda:
... nakhensa.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Through you, hon Chair, hon Minister, we have witnessed with the recent Suez Canal blockage that years of underinvestment have left ports such as Durban and Cape Town
ill-equipped to handle existing traffic. Are you aware of any ships that were turned away as a result of this, and if yes, what is the estimate amounts of revenue loss as a result thereof?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Minister, you may respond as far as you have information, but we make provision that you can still send it in writing also.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: We don’t have any ships that were
turned away in our instance, and we cannot come to the
conclusion in terms of the revenue laws because in terms of
our own situation we did not encountered this.
Question 95:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: More than 90% of vehicle licence renewals have been completed. The online services provided by the City of Cape Town is an EFT payment into the city’s bank account, followed by a manual licensing and postage on the disc. For those reasons, I will not readily support such an approach.
The Minister of Finance has recently provided concurrence for the introduction of new online services, for the first time,
in the licence disc environment to the department and the Road Traffic Management Corporation, the RTMC. Draft legislation in this regard, will be published shortly for comments. The RTMC is implementing the online payment services, which will include the online vehicle licence renewal.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Chairperson. I have just ... the power has just gone down in my area. So, I am going to stick with off camera, if you do not mind. Thank you to the Minister for his response.
Minister, I know that you are not willing to do this, but we need to be mindful of the facts. That is not only the fact that people are getting their vehicle licensing renewed. It’s the productivity that costs the country whilst they are standing in those queues waiting and waiting. Minister tech has the Solutions for all the problems. We can have drones, controlling the highways, we can have bar code number plates that are valid for the life of their vehicle and updated online. Application for renewal of drivers licences can largely be done online and remotely.
Minister, please, will you take us into confidence. Will you give us a commitment today, as to what your departments to
embrace technology and the Fourth Industrial Revolution,4IR, to make this easier for South Africans? What portion of your budget are you prepared to allocate to the investigation of all our technological Solutions, to the Department of Transport problems? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The RTMC and the department has been directed to work on the online system. we are as of tomorrow as one, in consultation with all our provinces and as well as the metros and different municipalities. I have zoomed in Gauteng, among others, to deal with the deficiencies of the system as in a different ...[Inaudible] ... in the province. I went to replicate the model that we are going to implement for Gauteng, for the rest of the country. So, tomorrow as in Thursday, I have been seized with this matter.
I am in consultation with all the provinces. I am open to all suggestions that are going to make us move with speed to ensure that, among others, we do embrace the 4IR IT, in ensuring that we make the accessibility and the issuance of drivers licence easier, and we kill the queues and make it accessible to everyone. So, we are dealing with that. I will not give you the expenses at the present moment, in terms of the budget, because this is a concurrent function. Among
others, once I’m finished with the consultation in the next coming weeks, I will be in a position to make that known to everybody and also account to Parliament in relation to this. Thank you
Mr M I RAYI: Hon Deputy Chair, greetings to you and greetings to the hon Minister and hon members, thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response. What I would like to know, are there any differences, hon Minister, between the online services as provided by the City of Cape Town and the online payment system that is introduced by the RTMC. Thank you, hon Minister. Thank you, hon Chair and hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, there are differences. The City of Cape Town, the system is not on, electronic national administration traffic information, eNaTIS, is not linked to eNaTIS, and it works on via ...[Inaudible.] .... The City of Cape Town system is working on ... [Inaudible.], once the client has actually logged in June there into the city’s website, and they will be provided with various options, ranging from paying water lights and the renewal of licences, etc. When renewing a motor vehicle licence the city has to process it manually, by going into the eNaTIS system. The city has two separate systems, the one working via ... [Inaudible.]
... and the one working via eNaTIS system. On receipt of money for renewing motor vehicle licence, the money goes into the city’s bank account. The processing thereof the City, will log on to eNaTIS to print and post the licence to the applicant.
So in the main, the other one is the eNaTIS, and the city works operate on ... [Inaudible.] .... That is the major difference between the two. That’s the difference, hon Rayi.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibingele Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe woMnyango njengoba sikuqonda ukuthi kwaZulu-Natali izindawo eziningi zisemaphandleni nanokuthi siyakuqonda futhi ukuthi izindawo zasemaphandleni ikakhulukazi KwaZulu-Natali azikabi nawo umbani. Ziphinde zibe nenkinga yokuxhumana ku-network.
Siyakuqonda ukuthi asinazo izinombolo zezindlu nemigwaqo. Le – online renewal izosiza kanjani abantu abasemaphandleni noma ingeyalaba abayingcosana yini? Ngiyabonga.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Rural areas with no electricity. We will not be scrapping the manual system. So we are not forcing everybody to oblige and to follow the online system, and among other things, that we are looking at in perfecting the system. It is also the walk-ins, particularly in the deep rural areas, where people will not go online, even in urban areas. They
should be permitted in that regard. This is what we are sorting out. But they will not be scrapped. We are simply embracing the 4IR, and at the same time, making it easier for those who can be able to access the system online. The ... [Inaudible.] ... system will work to cater for rural areas, Deputy Chair,
Question 105:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: In order to facilitate the resettlement of the households in the railway reserve on the central line in Cape Town, the Department of Transport will be entering into an implementation protocol with key role-players inclusive of the National Department of Human Settlements and Public Works and Infrastructure, the Western Cape provincial Department of Human Settlements and Transport and Public Works, City of Cape Town Metropolitan Municipality and the Housing Development Agency. The implementation protocol will drive interventions in working together in securing alternative settlements to clear the line for the rehabilitation. The department has appointed the Housing Development Agency as in implementation agent to manage establishment of temporary residential areas, and the resettlement of households residing on the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, Railway reserves.
The financial implications for the department will be to avail the funding for the project management fees, for the implementation of the resettlement project. The estimated project management fees over a three-year period amounts to R45 million. The department will provide for the project management costs related to the resettlement, and will be entering into service level agreement with the Housing Development Agency. The process of eviction is planned and a court order date has been set for 7 May 2021, which has passed, and 27 July 2021, respectively, to give notice to the residents on two sections of land. The Housing Development Agency is in the process of acquiring three parcels of land to build 22 050 temporary structures following the granting of the eviction order. Plans are in place, security, an asset protection plan as well, a concerted approach has been developed which led to the development and creation of an integrated security plan which we launched on 16 September 2020.
The plan was informed by intelligence driven operations, security, etcetera. The corporate security plan, this plan includes the people’s responsibility to protect that was approved by the board in December 2021, a detailed security deployment plan has been developed in February 2021, a key
pillar on the corporate security implementation plan include the insourcing of 3 100 protection officials, armed response guards and control room operators. Stakeholders in Cape Town have been engaged on the corporate security implementation plan, and the communities’ role has been explained to community leaders in Philippi, Langa, Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Kapteinsklip, in January 2021. In addition to the 16 corridors currently in operation nationally, 10 high priority corridors will be rehabilitated. ... [Interjections.] ... We have already started in April 2021 ... [Interjections.] ... of these lines Prasa will establish a fully flash project management office.
The recovery plan of the top ten corridors is aimed at the highest number of commuters having access to affordable transport and the resumption of services to have improved availability, reliability, safety and security. The rollout plans for the corridors selected are aligned to the extent of the damage, and require time to recover and rehabilitate as well as the rollout of the security strategy that will ensure that recovered infrastructure is not exposed to further destruction. The corridors identified in the Western Cape are the following: Cape Town-Khayelitsha, Kapteinsklip, Cape Town- Strand, and Cape Town-Simons Town. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Minster, I’m sorry for the disruption there. We will now
give the follow-up question to hon Mamaregane.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. Let me thank you, hon Minister ... [Interjections.] ... Okay, let me thank you, hon Minister, for your response to my question. Hon Minister, rail community is the most ... [Inaudible.] ... mode of transport for the poor and the working class. The fact that trains are running in some of the corridor on other transport. Hon Minister, when is the earliest time for the department that can be able to open the corridors that are still closed. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Mamaregane. Let me first say this in the form of a privilege to giving you the details of the opening of corridors. For the first time in many years, it was the first time that the corridors of Prasa were shut down during the lockdown. Trains have been operating with the difficulties of facing vandalism, stealing of copper cables and all of that, and even the dilapidated and vandalised trains sometimes operating without doors and windows. For the first time last year because of the total
shutdown we then shutdown train services. Therefore, once we have done that, a number of stations, even substations, were vandalised too. The vandalism also went on to cut the cables, which means for us to get the services of the trains back we need to fix those issues, the cable theft that has happened during the lockdown, and then to certain extent also fix the stations that were vandalised.
Therefore, recovery of these corridors happened during the hard lockdown, and thieves did as they wish during that period because there was no security to mend the lines. So, in terms of the recovery plan, Mabopane-Pretoria, we are envisaging that the recovery of this line will happen around and the work will be complete and the line will be open as of the 4 November 2021. In Pienaarspoort-Pretoria, 28 February 2022.
Saulsville-Pretoria, 28 February 2022 and so on. And then Pretoria-Germiston, Leralla-Johannesburg, Daveyton we have got about 11 of these corridors which will be recovered up until March 2022, which service will be fully operational in all the stations. The major work is being undertaken in Mabopane, and the central line, including the question I have just answered now of the people who are encroaching in the railway lines, that we are moving for better settlement and so on, working with other departments. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, you seem to be on top of figures because you mentioned that R45 million will be spent over three years for the project management for moving the people to another suitable area. Minister, why didn’t your department act timeously and engage with law enforcement agencies and the courts to prevent this occupation and trespassing, an encroaching from taking place and to have the perpetrators evicted. In spite of the fact that we were in a lockdown situation because law enforcement agencies will be working overtime, and by not acting your department is complicit to the acts of horror that’s taking place of infrastructure being vandalised and plundered, and possible new lines that needs to be built with taxpayers’ money.
Minister, how much money will it cost to bring these stations that were plundered and vandalised, and the lines that were cut back to standards and to its full former glory. Thank you Deputy Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. The R45 million is for the projects of removing people, particularly for new human settlements. Let me clarify the point, hon Du Toit, about occupation. Occupation and encroachment in the railway lines happened many years ago and nothing was done about it. At that time Prasa had a full
component of private security companies, the very same security companies that are telling a story that all and everything else happened broke loose at Prasa because of the discontinuation of their contracts. All of these things happened during that period and what we are doing and what we have been doing in the past one and half years, since we came here, was to fix that. We are fixing that and we are going to sort it out. One of the things like I have referred to is the dealing with the occupation and the resettling the people.
Let me tell you the strategy of why people settle on the railway lines. You have got a big movement of people who move from rural areas to urban areas looking for greener pastures and employment. One of the of the cities that people go for a greener pastures and better lives and all of that and looking for work is Cape Town. These people who are settling on the railway lines are coming from the Eastern Cape, majority of them. So, settling on the railway lines and encroaching start by encroaching and then settling on the railway line in numbers. What it means is that government in terms of the law is obligated to look for human settlement for these people, and that is what has happened. Some of these people are backyard, what you may characterise as backyard dwellers in the different areas of Cape Town. Therefore, they move from
the backyard and then they settle on the railway lines to attract the attention.
Good question you are asking is where is Prasa security when all of that happened? It was absent, totally absent because with the first settlement of seeing people encroaching and settling on these areas, work by security was supposed to be done to evict those people. However, it was allowed like as if there is no management which give qualification to the point we made from time to time that Prasa is a broken place that we are fixing. So, we are fixing that. How much will it cost to build all of these, it run into billions of rand and the millions of rand in terms of ensuring that we bring back the corridors, we resettle people and we are confident that by next year all of these would have happened. By now, all of these will be in order and we were interrupted by coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, because we had to stop working on recovering the line of central line and resettling people because of the pandemic.
So, that is what has delayed our work. However, we are back on track now and we are even better, stronger and well organised. We have got the group chief executive officer, CEO, we have got the board that desist with this matter. This past weekend,
once more, I’ve had a workshop to look at the progress with the board and the management and at these dates that we have agreed to have been revised and we are hard at work with the management and the board to ensure that the train services for the people of South Africa are back on track and are back on operations. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I allowed
you, Minister, to take a little bit of time because I think it’s good that you clarify these issues. Hon Moletsane from the EFF you’ve ... [Inaudible.]
Mr M S MOLETSANA: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Minister, having spoken about fixing vandalised stations and railway lines, specifically on railway cables that are stolen from time to time. Are there any permanent solutions to prevent that? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: A permanent solution to prevent that will not stop, you know, this is linked to crime syndicates. A permanent solution to that is a model we’ve adopted of a security plan implemented 24/7 and at the same time, guarding our lines and protecting our corridors. That is the permanent solution and this is what we are working on now
and using all sorts of means at our disposal, human capital and at the same time capacity in terms of information technology, IT, drones, which are linked to the integrated strategy, and to be able to detect from an IT’s point of view and report to the wareroom of security, whenever lines are being vandalised and so on. So, we recover the line, we protect. We recover the line, we protected. That is how the plan is going. So, you should see this movement of progress by September this year because we are hard at work as we speak now. So, you will see that in the different corridors.
Therefore, we recover the plan and the security protect.
Towards the end of the year there will be a big movement of trains operational and all of that. That’s how we look at this, and the only solution is a workable security plan that has totally been absent at Prasa. Prasa has just been a company that dish security contracts to people and individual companies which has not assisted the company in the past years. All of that has been reviewed. Now, we are focused on a comprehensive plan, working with agencies of the state, SA Police Service, SAPS, and everybody else to install security permanently at Prasa. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister. Hon Minister, we had a lot of reactive responses from you and, you know, in some instances in the response also blame shifting. Sometimes you can’t help to think that it might be part of the ANC’s ungovernability campaign, but let’s leave it there. Hon Minister, I would like to know in terms of a proactive response, what will you do to ensure that this does not happen again, and that it is also prevented in other areas throughout the country? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: To ensure that it doesn’t happen again it means that we are implementing a policy turnaround at Prasa, and at the same time we are implementing plans that are sustainable and they are not based on shifting of people in positions. We have brought stability in terms of governance at Prasa which we did not have for a considerable period. At Prasa, as you would know, we now have a board and we will be appointing a number of managers to sustain the stability.
We’ve appointed a group CEO, quite well versatile individual who is assembling his team there at Prasa to ensure that all of these things are reversed.
Therefore, there’s a lot of work that has been covered at the
present moment and I think as you do your oversight you will
attest to some of the things I have spoken about that are being implemented as we speak. Bulk of the issues we are dealing with, I’ve been a Minister here now in July, and I have been a Minister of Transport for two years. I’ve been a Minister in less than two years. This department has had a change of Ministers and then also I’ve had at Prasa, in particular, change of boards. It is after how many times that we have a CEO, after Lucky Montana, it is only now that we have appointed a permanent CEO. We’ve had how many CEOs at Prasa, more than six acting people there, it can tell you, it’s chaos. Now, we have done away with that chaos. There is a semblance of organisation and we are looking at recovering that place and making it the company that will have a mandate of ensuring that it gives a good service to the people of this country. Thank you very much.
Question 97:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, I am
back and I am sorry. The hon Ngwenya can continue because I think there is a problem with my network. I just wanted to call Question 97 because the hon Ngwezi is not present.
However, the Minister is here and he can respond and the hon Ngwenya can continue with the follow-ups despite the hon Ngwezi not on the platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Deputy Chair and hon members we are going to continue with our follow-up questions.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can we first get the responses of Question 97 of the hon Ngwezi and then we can continue from there.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Alright. Is the hon Ngwezi present?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Since he is not present the Minister can respond to Question 97 and then you can take the follow-up questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Alright. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.
Hon Minister, can you please respond to the question that has been asked by the hon Ngwezi?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, thank you very much hon House Chair.
It is important that I indicate that the aviation and road freight are the most important subsectors of transport that require serious interventions to improve transformation and broad based economic empowerment status.
To date my department has been using various mechanisms and instruments to implement this topical agenda of government. These are, just to name just a few: Firstly, the department has been and is still implementing the transformation and the treble BEE using the Integrated Transport Sector Treble BEE Charter that was gazetted in August 2009 by the Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition. This framework focus on eight subsectors of transport. Which are aviation, bus, taxi, fright, forwarding and clearing marital rail and road freight and public sector.
Secondly, the Integrated Transport Sector Treble BEE Charter has been supported by the institution called the Transport Sector Treble BEE Council and it ensured implementation, monitoring and evaluation of this framework happens.
Thirdly, women empowerment of the transport sector is spearheaded by the SA Network for Women in Transport, Sanwit. This network forum has always been funded by the Department
since it was launched in 2008. Various provincial structures of Sanwit exists.
Fourthly, the licensing mechanism is applied in the aviation industry to ensure compliance of transformation and Treble BEE when issuing license to airlines to operate.
Fifthly, the branch civil aviation of the Department of Transport is functionally responsible for driving transformation aviation agenda. This is one of the flagship projects through which the Department of Transport seeks to make meaningful central contributions to the vision of the National Development Plan 2030.
By 2018-19 financial year, the Department of Transport has developed the draft National Civil Aviation Transformation Strategy. Its objectives are to provide a perspective and the platform for applying in a coherent manner existing livers that are transformative in nature and orientation with a view to accelerate aviation transformation.
Furthermore, it seeks to serve as an overarching framework for the Department of Transport to set the trajectory for transformation that the trajectory that should be taken and
followed carefully, co-ordinated and consolidated implementation plan.
Its originality is the flight planned and cut on four strategic pillars. Pillar one, institutes governance protocol. Pillar two, increase access to investment to facilitate capacity. Pillar three, increase access to increase development. Pillar four is to increase access to entrepreneur capital and to international markets.
Opportunities include increase a number of black pilots, technicians and engineers, manufacture and repair aircraft, aviation training programmes, manufacturing of helicopters, roto and fixed wing equipment and rotary type aircraft engine, just to name a few. Thank you very much, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Unmute, hon Ngwenya. Unmute.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon Minister. I want to check if the hon Ngwezi is present in terms of the follow-up question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Ngwezi is not present, hon Ma Ngwenya.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, Deputy Chairperson, I will continue with the next follow-up question from the hon Ryder. The hon Ryder.
Mr D R RYDER: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, as we contemplate in the industry that has been brought to its knees, restrictions on movements internationally, we in South Africa find ourselves dependent on our national carrier that has been brought to its knees by cadre deployment.
Minister in transforming this industry will you learn from the mistakes made at Eskom and retain sufficient skills regardless of race, to ensure skills transfer or will you be pursuing your transformation agenda based purely on the skin colour or perhaps even importing a few Cuban pilots? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The hon Ryder is being a typical politician. He is bringing issues to a very important subject of transformation. I do not see like the honourable Mantashe have said: How does transformation defeat growth of the economy? For at least the economy is about the inclusivity and
it is about recognizing the historically disenfranchised and bringing them to the fore. The fact that there is dominance you know of a particular race in terms of skilling and you only have a drop in the ocean of women, and African and Blacks in general in terms of aviation sector tells a story.
So, it does not mean that transformation and annulation of one race and then not working on skills retention. We are talking of skills retention, but bringing in the numbers of the historically disadvantaged. This is what transformation is all about.
In this instance, the national carrier in terms of its demise as you would have said it is probably an account of mismanagement more than any other thing rather than transformation.
In this particular instance it is important to recognize employment equity is key in our efforts towards transformation. The majority in this country are blacks and we cannot ignore the majority of our people.
It was not a cadre deployment, but corruption that destroyed the state-owned entities, SOEs and the objectives of what we
want to achieve. Cadre deployment which you practice even as the DA, but you do not call it cadre deployment you call it something else. Cadre deployment does not mean no skills retention, it does not mean you simply source people without skills and deploy them in a sector, it means the advanced cadres, the well trained people academically and who are skilled.
I will not talk about the Cuban issue because I think you are simply vulgarizing the point. For Cubans just like the skills you know the skills that we attract in this country, from the Philippines and other countries, the UK, Germany and others you do not say anything about them. The only difference is because you have an ideological disposition with Cuba. That small island, you hate it so much that everything that comes out of it you think it is communist. It is the best country in the world that it is perfect, when it comes to education and we have seen that in terms of doctors, engineers and we should not be apologetic about that.
We do have other countries even in the West who have provided all sorts of skills and support in this country. That is why we adopted an approach of skills retention it is not a permanent feature of our democratic state. It is simply a
feature that seeks to assist us to get somewhere. However, overtime we will be having our own doctors and our own engineers just like those that we have who will be prepared to work in the rural areas and everywhere else in the country.
That is what we need to do so, we need to understand that.
Chair, we are implementing transformation in the context of those pillars that I have actually articulated in the presentation I made earlier on in answering the question.
Thank you very much.
isiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge Sihlalo, ngibingelele uNgqongqoshe woMnyango, KwaZulu-Natali sinesikhungo sezindiza esiseMkhuze esineminyanga sakhiwa ngezigidigidi zemali ezifakiwe kusona kodwa asipheli. Siphinde sibe nesikhungo sezindiza esisoLundi, nesise-Newcastle. UMnyango wakho ubukeka sengathi awunikeziwe ukunakekela nokuzinaka lezi zikhungo. Umbuzo wami kuwena Ngqongqoshe uthi: Yiziphi izinhlelo onazo ukuthi abantu abekade becindezelekile kule minyaka edlule bakwazi ukuthi babonakale beba ngabanye abaphatha lezi ndiza njengophephelemhlane. Baphinde babe abantu abashayela lezi ndiza ngoba siyabona ukuthi abantu abaphethe le zindiza zophephelemhlane abantu abanebala elilodwa futhi nabashayeli
bezindiza abebala elilodwa? Yikuphi uMnyango ozimisele ukukwenza ngalokho? Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Lungu elihloniphekile engizimisele ukukwenza ukuthi kufanele sakhe ...
English:
... a capacity within our entities. At the present moment we do support the pilots who are being trained in terms of bursaries. However, one of the things we are looking at is to ensure that we are able to build what we call an academy which will support the disadvantaged.
IsiZulu:
Angikwazi ukukhuluma kabanzi ngalokho ngoba ...
English:
... we have not as yet, you know concretized that, but when I took over from former Minister Nzimande we agreed to work together with higher education to invest in this sort of academy because ...
IsiZulu:
... ziningi izingane ezifuna ukuba ngabashayeli bezindiza la eNingizimu Afrika kodwa ...
English:
... they do not have support in terms of resources because it is very expensive to educate a pilot. That is why you find that it is only those who can afford, who are able to produce pilots, but not because there are no skills, it is because they cannot afford. It is over R200 000 that you need to basically educate a pilot over a period of time.
So, we have made a firm commitment now to support our pilots and all of that.
When it comes to the airports ...
IsiZulu:
... umama akhuluma ngazo.
English:
... those are privately owned airports. Airports Company SA, Acsa will be assisting some of these airports. Like for instance the airport in Limpopo, which is called the Limpopo International Airport. It is not under Acsa. There are many
such airports that you see around the country that are not under us. However, at the same time we will be working with the private sector to ensure that ...
IsiZulu:
...njengoba usho mama.
English:
... as we speak some of these airports we assist in the completion of the construction work that is been undertaken. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M DANGOR: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, thank you very much for a comprehensive response to the questions that are being posed.
Hon Minister, in the new normal or postcovid period, has consideration been given during this period to the possibility of it having a negative impact on the National Civil Aviation Strategy? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chair and hon Dangor, yes in the new postcovid environment, proposed interventions such as the National Civil Transformation Intervention Strategy, we
will most definitely have affected as the outbreak of the COVID-19 has shaped the current practices and customs in a way that is different from what has been done before.
There is a pragmatic view that states that COVID-19 is not only a pandemic, but an endemic which means that it is likely to be with us for quite some time to come. In light of the afore going the sound outlook into the future ought to embrace the fact that whilst covid has cost fundamental setbacks in political, economic, social, technological, etc, it has also presented new growth opportunities to exploit. Therefore, in this context it provides possibilities to rapidly embrace and take advantages of technological opportunities. I thank you, Chair.
Question 106:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you Chair, the Moloto Road Project comprises several road improvement work packages spread across the Gauteng, Mpumalanga and Limpopo Provinces. The Mpumalanga and Limpopo sections of the Moloto Road were promulgated as national roads in 2015. The Gauteng portion was only promulgated in 2020.
The Gauteng provincial section of Moloto Road is 48,6 kilometers in length. This perception remains under the jurisdiction of the Gauteng Province until 5th June 2020 with The South African National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, SANRAL, being the implementing agent of the Moloto Road improvements.
Due to Gauteng Province funding constraints, the design work had to be halted. Design work has now commenced in earnest after the June 2020 transfer to SANRAL and, it is expected that some portions of the road will be in construction the beginning of 2022 with completion of construction towards the end of 2024.
The Mpumalanga provincial section of Moloto Road is 54,89 kilometers in length. The upgrade of the entire length and breadth of the road triggered legislative environment processes to be followed exception for force intersections that received and were prioritized due to safety concerns and for which design processes were accelerated for immediate implementation.
The major upgrades of this intersections commenced in
January 2017 and were completed in December 2018 before I even came in as the Minister of Transport. Under Minister Blade
Nzimande, the remaining section of the route has been unbundled into five work packages that will be implemented in phases over the next two to three years. The first of the five remaining work packages were handed over to a new contractor in February 2021 with physical construction expected to commence in May 2021 post the three months’ mobilization period.
The Limpopo provincial section of Moloto Road is 37 kilometers in length. The rural section which comprises the section between Siyabuswa and Marble Hall, approximately
23 kilometers, did not require environmental approvals implementation. the construction works commenced in
January 2019 with the original completion date of May 2019.
Unfortunately, the main contractor was placed in provisional business rescue on 15 May 2019. This severely constrained cash flow of appointed contractor, resulted in slow or no progress on site. Through the business rescue process, the appointed contractor was rescued and were able to resume construction activities in September 2020.
Due to impact of Covid-19 lockdown restrictions, the new completion date has since been revised to 31 October 2021. The
remaining urban section has been divided into three work packages that will be implemented in phases over the next two to three years. The first of the three remaining work packages was handed over to the contractor in February 2021 with physical construction expected to commence in May 2021. Thank you, Chair.
Setswana:
Rre K M MMOIEMANG: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo wa Ntlo, ...
English:
... let me also express my gratitude to the comprehensive manner at which the Minister has responded to the Moloto Road. Indeed, it has been a headache, I believe so hon Minister. We are mindful of the fact that there are people that are also still staging a sitting to try bring the railway part of the road but we fully understand the complexity and the budgetary constraints that we are faced with.
My question hon Minister is on the kilometers that we have set that they have been completed between 2017 and 2018. So, given the fact that this road acquired the status of the killer road, the question is whether there has there been any
improvement in the level of safety on the part of the Moloto Road that has already been upgraded? Thank you, hon Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon Mmoiemang. Hon Minister, now I would like to call Mr D Ryder for the follow-up question.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chairperson, the Minister must respond first
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, can the Minister respond to the follow up question by hon Mmoiemang. Hon Minister, are you there?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can you please respond to the question asked by the hon Mmoiemang.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: It is still early days to say that R573 because it has just been handed over to Gauteng and I launched that particular projects of the extension of the Moloto Road to connect the three provinces. We have given a detailed account in terms of the work that has been done on the side of Limpopo, that includes the part of Siyabuswa and
Marble Hall. There is still outstanding work as you can see in terms of our presentation. A lot of work in terms of the outer packages that has been allocated is going to commence now.
Part of the road in terms of Mpumalanga and Limpopo has been completed. The Gauteng part, R573, which is defined as the killer road, is the one that the designs have been undertaken and at the same time will be completed and, work is going to commence in earnest from 2022 onwards. It is work that is going to create about 12 000 new jobs and then it will be completed towards the end of 2024. That is what is going to happen because it is the biggest and that is why it is called the killer road.
So, part of the work that will be undertaken in relation to that will ensure that there is reduction of fatalities by ensuring that we widen and improve on the intersections which is a major problem there. The roundabouts will also be successfully improved and line markings will also be emphasized. At the present moment that road is too narrow and all that. Most of the people in the areas of KwaMhlanga work in Pretoria and then most of the people commute between KwaMhlanga, Mpumalanga to Pretoria.
So, the Moloto Road as it is, it’s a project of three provinces. When I came in as the Minister taking over from Minister Nzimande, it was to fast track with Premier Makhura and the MEC of Transport in Gauteng to ensure that we finalize the agreement. We have signed and agreed and the road is now in the hands of SANRAL. So, we are looking forward to a perfect road in the next coming years.
On the rail site hon Mmoiemang, you just did a touch and go but because of time I won’t dwell on that. We will still go back and look at this matter. It is still with us and we assist with it. But at the present moment, we don’t have the resources to undertake that matter. It involves a whole lot of issues, feasibility study, Treasury and us agreeing to one way or the other, whether or not we can have a branch line of railway between Pretoria and Mpumalanga and alongside Moloto Road itself.
It was initially conceptualized like that but did not materialize because there was never an agreement between Treasury and the Department of Transport in relation to the feasibility study and the rollout of the railway network. But, it was promised to the people of Mpumalanga but it was not effected and implemented. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you House Chair, I just want the Minister to assure us that the construction of Moloto Corridor is benefiting the community that stays in the towns that are closer to it by creating jobs for them. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chair, to answer the question of hon Moletsane, our approach whenever we do construction, because of we do construction of a new road among communities, our emphasis is for those construction work to benefit the nearby communities. So, I went to KwaMhlanga to unveil this particular signing of handing over of the roads to SANRAL, and then I addressed the communities and at the same time there is an agreement which we are implementing all over the country to bring in Small Micro and Medium Enterprises, SMMEs, to benefit all, and to also bring in the training of young people in the construction of the new roads.
So, the 12 000 job opportunities we are talking about, it is a multifaceted approach of SMMEs and also skilling and bringing in young unemployed youth in that in this particular project. So, we are looking at 12 000 over a period of time being employed in this project. So, most definitely yes - a big yes
– hon Moletsane, we are bringing in communities in the construction of the new road between Pretoria, Mpumalanga and
Gauteng part R573, “killer road” into the project itself.
Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, in 2015 Minister Dipuo Peters announced in her Budget Speech that the upgrading of the R573 Moloto Road would get an estimate investment of over a billion rand. How much money has been paid up to now for those road what is the total length and what does the estimate completion costs for this project? And, if you could indicate if this is in par with similar road construction that is taking place. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I do not have the figures but we will come back to the hon member in writing to give you the total figures, but it runs over a billion rand. So, I will exactly do that and give you the total figures. But, it runs over a billion-rand investment into these projects, particularly the R573 of the Gauteng part which has been handed over to SANRAL. Thank you very much.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Yes, I am ready if you are ready Chair. Minister, the Moloto Corridor Project has been tarred for over a decade and over R18 million has been wasted with absolutely
nothing to show for it. Today you have given us timelines for when what construction will be completed.
In view of this Minister, should you miss any of these deadlines, will you undertake to stand in and take responsibility for every fatality that is caused on this road? Minister, just tongue-in cheek-, you are very famous for missing deadlines. So, I hope with this Moloto Road, you don't miss any deadlines like you have now done with the e-toll question. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: There are not deadlines were missed on the Moloto Road under my stewardship as a Minister. I have gone to formally unveil the handed over to Gauteng and they facilitated the smooth hand over of the road to Gauteng. I have committed to five-year period which has been implemented as we speak and, I have inherited a work-in-progress and work done from the part of Mpumalanga of this corridor.
A lot of work has been covered, the only in one part which is Limpopo, where there was a default which I explained that it was because that a company involved was in business rescue and that company has been rescued and is back at work. We are
looking at the completion of that work by October. So, the only part that was remaining was Gauteng.
With regard to e-tolls, it’s not as easy as you put it hon member, but is not a question at hand. I take it as a sweeping statement. So, I simply will regard it as nothing else but provocation. So, if you want us to debate and you want to understand why there was a delay with regard to the finalization, I said I will account about that and, I have said it in public, so wait for that moment and then you can say that I am a master of not honoring deadlines. So, the end of 2024 is the deadline for the completion of the R573 at the last part of Moloto Road to Mpumalanga. Thank you very much.
Question 96:
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, has been guided by its Horizon 2030 strategy and transformation policy to address challenges that relates to project site invasions and demands for radical economic transformation. I need to hasten to mention that the Sanral, like all organs of state, is enjoined by the Constitution and rule of law to adhere to the relevant procurement legislation. In this instance, the Public Procurement Policy Framework Act prescribes the 90/10 ratio.
The transformation policy’s 14-point plan has proven to be very instrumental in creating a platform for key local stakeholders to interact with the Sanral projects to ensure communities are mobilized, businesses are organized and stakeholders all given equal say in project delivery. The project liaison committees that the Sanral has set up for projects enabled the main contractor to work with the various stakeholders to ensure that project packages are inclusive and equitably spread across suppliers of different sizes, prioritizing suppliers from targeted areas, while not shutting the door to suppliers from the rest of South Africa.
The project liaison committee, PLC, members are not allowed to evaluate and adjudicate bids or participate in bids due to their natural conflict. Any concerns that relate to bidding processes by main contractors are escalated to the Sanral for an independent review. This approach has been successfully implemented in both large and small Sanral projects.
Furthermore, it has unblocked projects, including the N3 Hammarsdale project in KwaZulu-Natal, the N4, R512 Pampoen Nek project in Hartebeespoort dam in Gauteng, the R573 Moloto Road and the N4 expansion in Belfast, in Mpumalanga. This approach is now being applied on the N2 and N3 flagship project in KwaZulu-Natal and the N2 Wild Coast in the Eastern Cape, which
you will know that the Mtentu part alongside the Msikaba part of these Wild Coast route have partly been affected by some of these issues you are talking about.
The Sanral is also pursuing engagements with many business forums that have emerged across the country representing black business, and is encouraging them to unite in order to galvanize black business and ensure a proper structure; an agenda to enable black business to engage better with governments when demanding inclusion in the economy, and to help clampdown on construction site invasions.
I strongly condemn all criminal behavior that has been witnessed on various construction sites, and law enforcement must not hesitate to act against those who unlawfully disrupt this much-needed infrastructure.
Government is reviewing the Procurement Legislative Framework, and members of the public were invited to make their inputs into the Public Procurement Bill. As this government, we remain committed to the advancement of black business, and to that extent, there has been a plethora of initiatives taken.
These include the amendment of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, Act to ensure wider participation, in
particular by historically disadvantaged individuals. I thank you.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, hon House Chair, I apologize. The power is still off in my area and therefore, the signal is not strong enough for the camera. Minister, thank you for your answer, but 90% of it was about what the question was not about. The question is about road contractors if you look at the question and about criminal elements. I am not speaking at all about genuine stakeholders who would like to have transformation happen in their businesses and to be involved in the Sanral contracts. We are talking about the criminal elements. These are the criminal elements who are involved with the former disgraced mayor, Zandile Gumede. The question is, House Chair, to the Minister: Minister, other than just saying police must do something about it, when will you form a task team with Minister Cele to actually set up something to investigate these rogue contractors or criminal contractors and bring them to book? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I don’t ... hon member Landman, put aside your suggestions of a joint Interministerial approach to this matter. I think it’s a very important a suggestion that we need to look at because in the Department of Transport, we
are mostly affected by this. As you know, we are largely in the construction business in terms of roads. Even when we deal with railway construction and all of that, we are mostly affected by these criminal elements. So, your suggestion of a joint is something that we need to explore to deal with this.
The question was answering what we are doing practically as we speak. We have PLCs that deal with these particular matters.
Where there is a genuine concern by communities that initially
- before we even arrived in this department - things were happening and communities were not being brought on board. Some overzealous elements within the communities seek to hijack this genuine concern and do what is called a mass protests. The criminal elements come in demanding all sorts of things, including percentages and so on.
In this particular regard, we have sort of mitigated the situation by having a plan that we are implementing everywhere, whose examples I have given, including the Moloto road corridor. We have been engaging with communities through the PLCs, and ensuring that we are able to bring proper Small, Micro and Medium Enterprises, SMMEs, on board from communities. At the same time, we bring on board unemployed youth into the project we are implementing throughout the
country. So, you are right, a criminal element is a criminal element. We have to be decisive. The law must take its course.
You are suggesting that we should not leave that to the SA Police Service, SAPS. Your suggestion of a joint between us, the SAPS and Ministers who are affected by these anarchy is welcome. It is not something that we have implemented as we speak, but I can tell you right now, it is something that is important. It is the same approach that I have implemented, by the way, at Prasa, because I engaged the Minister of Police and the Minister of Justice and they became part of the development of the security plan for Prasa, which we are implementing at the present moment, because it takes into consideration prosecution; how do we charge these people who are sabotaging projects? Do we charge them with theft, do we charge them with vandalism or what? We said they must be charged with economic sabotage and the prosecution is on board. The police’ specialized approach has also been implemented in this regard with Prasa at the centre of the security with regard to co-ordination. Maybe also, that approach will assist us. That is why I am not taking the suggestion you are making lightly. I am embracing it. It is something that we need to implement going forward. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, House Chairperson, Minister, we definitely need a strong action plan with regard to not only condoning these actions, but to take real action with regards to these criminal behaviors. Minister, can you assure South Africans that your plan to clean up, not only the Sanral but the Prasa of rogue elements that it is not yet another empty promise or a failed of rail plan? Are there any plans to privatize the Prasa? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: There is no plan to privatize the Prasa, we have no such mandate in terms of the law that established the Prasa. What we are exploring with regard to the business case we are building - there are branch lines at the Prasa, but we think that they could be of great importance with regard to our transport expansion strategy - like if you take it between Botshabelo and Thaba Nchu in the Free State, and like Moloto corridor rail we are talking about - those are branch lines that we think we can expand, working with the private sector. So, it is not privatization. We are looking at options in relation to KwaZulu-Natal, taking the Gautrain model to KwaZulu-Natal, because the population of KwaZulu- Natal is growing, and we basically need a speed train locally. There is a whole lot of ideas on the table; monorails, which were delayed some years back and were never implemented
because government does not have money to fund some of these projects, including the branch lines. But working with the private sector we can get somewhere, but not to the detriment of weakening the fiscus. We are doing these things also looking at our options, talking to Treasury about some of them. They will find expression in our overall strategy going forward.
We have closed the taps in terms of elements of criminality. I have just stopped a big tender, which was full of mistakes and all of that. I said, we are not going back to Swifambo and all other things that used to happen at the Prasa under my watchful eye. All tenders, big tenders that are happening at the Prasa must be properly processed. That is what is important. We are not going back where we’ve irregular issuing of major contracts, and today, not even a single criminal attached to that or suspects have been arrested. So, we are not going back and it is not going to happen under me. Maybe, when I am no longer around it can, but not now. We are putting measures not only for myself but for the board itself and even the management at the Prasa to ensure that we are not going back to where this organization was at, as you can see from the Zondo Commission and what comes out of it and so on. Thank you very much.
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson, thank you very much, Minister, once again, your response to the question of hon Brauteseth indicates that the more communities are involved in the development and government projects, the more successful the projects are. My question is: Does the department have a programme to assist the local black business forums in order to increase their involvement in economic development in their areas? Thank you very much, hon House Chair and Minister.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: We are including a lot of black contractors with regard to our strategy at the Sanral when it comes to them taking part in the big projects that we are undertaking in the country. It is part and parcel of the work that the Sanral is undertaking in all the major contracts and where we are involved at a national level. Shareholder compacts have been strengthened to this extent to ensure that our entities and agencies do respond to this. Black business, in particular, small, medium and micro enterprises in the different areas and all of that are brought on board. They are exposed to training, they are given capacity and that is what is happening.
Under the auspices of bigger companies that are given work, you can see that our job when it comes to the Sanral is flawless. We not do big projects that collapse some way down the line and that there is no accountability. Somebody has disappeared along the way and all of that. The only obstacle to us has been these criminal elements and this is what we are dealing with. You will see in the next coming weeks, we will be going back to the Eastern Cape to open up the projects that have been killed and run down by criminal elements. We embrace everything that has been said here in terms of sharpening our capacity to deal with the criminal element as we roll out road infrastructure in the country, particularly bigger projects that attracts investment and at the same time create jobs for our people. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W NGWENYA): Hon members, I think now we are done with our questions and our follow up questions. I would like to thank both Ministers for their responses. The meeting is adjourned.
Debate concluded.
The Council Adjourned at: 16:55
Audio
No related