Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 14 Jun 2006

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

WEDNESDAY, 14 JUNE 2006

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:07.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Chairperson, I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the Council –

(1) notes the national Minister of Housing and Minmec’s decision to remove the N2 Gateway Project from the Cape Town Metro Council in order to fast-track the roll-out of much needed housing in the Western Cape;

(2) rejects with contempt the DA City Council’s attempt to politicise this national pilot project; and

(3) discusses the N2 Gateway Project and similar projects in order to put in place guidelines on how to deal with projects of national interest, in order to benefit the poor.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the NCOP, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the Council –

notes with shock and disgust that a 50-year-old man who was convicted of murdering his wife and daughter in order to avoid paying maintenance has been sent to jail for only 18 years;

further notes that the two women, who had a protection order against the man and had just attended a maintenance hearing against him, were shot dead execution style;

acknowledges that the sentence of just 18 years, which was handed down to this monstrous criminal, is not harsh enough, considering the heinous crimes that he committed; and

(4) calls upon all relevant authorities to do more to provide the necessary protection to our women and children so that they can feel safe and live a life free of fear.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the NCOP, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –

(1) notes with joy the appointment of the son of the soil, the Minister of Labour, as the Chairperson of the ILO;

(2) notes that the ILO is a United Nations special agency that works towards the promotion of social justice and internationally recognised human and labour rights; the ILO was found in 1919 and became the first specialised agency of the United Nations in 1946; the ILO has as its strategic objectives, amongst others, to promote and realise the standards and fundamental principles and rights at work, which include child labour – that is also our concern;

(3) notes that the ILO creates better opportunities for men and women to secure a decent employment and income, to enhance coverage and effectiveness of social protection, to strengthen tripartism and social dialogue among social partners;

(4) further notes that South Africa is being recognised for its sterling contribution in building a peaceful and just Africa and world; and

(5) therefore resolves that the Council sends a message of congratulations to the Minister and the Cabinet.

ILLNESS OF MRS CHEN’S HUSBAND

(Draft Resolution)

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the serious illness of Vincent Chen, husband of the hon member Mrs Sherry Chen, who was diagnosed soon after “Taking Parliament to the People of Limpopo”;

(2) also notes that this diagnosis was followed by continuous and severe treatment, often here and overseas;

(3) further notes that Vincent will be undergoing serious surgery on Tuesday, 20 June 2006; and

therefore wishes Hon Chen and her husband well and prays for a successful operation and complete recovery.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

“OKLOVA BEBULALA” - WARLORDS KILLING THE YOUTH

(Draft Resolution)

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes with appreciation the dedication of the month of June to deepening youth participation and development;

(2) notes with regret the reference made by the hon Ms Faith Mazibuko to “oklova bebulala” [warlords killing the youth];

(3) calls upon Ms Faith Mazibuko to desist from stirring up conflict, especially after the TRC report and the finalisation of everything that was done; and

(4) therefore reminds her that people were killed on trains simply because they could not call indololwane [the elbow] by another name, except to say indololwane in isiZulu, and that people were killed by being burnt in tyres, so that reference to “oklova bebulala”, which reflected Zulu involvement, is regretted, and she must retract that.

I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] Yes. In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

MEDIATION COMMITTEE FOR OLDER PERSONS BILL

(Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr M A Sulliman): Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip:

That the Council appoints the following members to serve on the Mediation Committee in respect of the Older Persons Bill [B 68D – 2003] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76):

Le Roux, J W Eastern Cape

Van Rooyen,C J Free State

Sogoni, E M Gauteng

Krumbock, G R KwaZulu-Natal

Matlanyane, H F Limpopo

Tolo, B J Mpumalanga

Sulliman, M A Northern Cape

Thlagale, J O North West

Ntwanambi, N D Western Cape

Ntuli, Z C KwaZulu-Natal (Alternate)

Masilo, J M North West (Alternate)

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We shall now proceed with the voting. As there is no speakers’ list on the question, I shall do that in alphabetic order per province. Delegates must indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr T S RALANE: Steun. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Mr M RADEBE: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: iKwaZulu-Natal ithi elethu.[KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga? We are recording. Can you please speak into your microphone, Ms Nyanda?

Ms F NYANDA: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Now I see Northern Province here. Is it not Limpopo? Why do you write Northern Province? Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke ya rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the Votes in the order in which they appear on the Schedule to the Bill.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put and agreed to.

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 3 – Foreign Affairs – put and agreed to.

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – put.

THE ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on the declarations, we will just call the parties and they would know who their speakers are.

Declarations of vote:

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, the DA will not support the Budget Vote for Home Affairs. The Minister, during her Budget Vote debate, acknowledged that she has been misled by department officials. The person directly accountable to the Minister is the director-general. The Minister’s admission is an indication that our officials are incompetent to carry out their obligations as defined by the Public Finance Management Act.

This qualifies for her to recommend to the President that they be relieved their responsibilities, in particular the director-general. Large sums of money could not be accounted for, and yet officials are still keeping their jobs. Junior officials are the ones that are going to receive the blame from those same senior officials, as they have nobody to protect them.

Most of the offices in the rural areas are still seriously understaffed and provision of services is compromised. Each year there is underspending by this department and we are told this is caused by vacancies within the department. Why is it difficult just to fill a vacancy, as a matter of urgency?

I will repeat some of the concerns raised by my colleague in the National Assembly. Does the department have competent employees within its internal audit section? If it does why could they not pick up these problems much earlier and correct them? Or is it a matter of jobs for pals that is being practised? I have to say this, because if my colleague said this in the National Assembly, there is nothing to stop me from doing the same. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson, as the ANC, we actually support this budget because it will strengthen the turnaround strategy that the department is using. Currently in place are the fraud prevention and risk management strategies and the quality of service and adequate human researchers.

Our physical infrastructure, equipment and IT technology are in place. As regards the roll-out of services, even in rural areas where it was not possible for people to obtain their IDs, this will now be possible. With those few words, the ANC supports the budget.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 41: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Matlhoahela, B L; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Rooyen, C J.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government – put and agreed to and (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 6 – Public Works – put and agreed to.

Vote No 7 – Government Communication and Information Systems – put and agreed to.

Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, we support the Vote, but then the SOEs have the ability to fundamentally affect our country’s economy and the wellbeing of our citizens. They have vast resources at their disposal in some of the biggest sectors of the economy, such as transport, arms and electricity.

Yet, with the failure of Denel and the state needing to inject R2 billion to keep it afloat and the failure by Eskom to adequately prepare for the growth in the demand for electricity, we have to ask whether monitoring by the Minister and the Department of Public Enterprises is both adequate and continuous. If this is the case, these SOEs would not have failed in their duty to the state and the South African public.

The IFP therefore calls on the Minister to ensure that the performance of the SOEs is closely monitored, so that they could benefit all South Africans. I thank you.

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. The challenge that confronts us is to spare no effort in addressing the new challenges that confront the people of our country. In this regard, therefore, we as the ANC believe that the budget for the Department of Public Enterprises is adequate to meet our economic growth objectives in terms of Asgisa.

We further believe that this budget allows the department to fulfil its obligations in respect of the state-owned enterprises and that, in turn, will add to our objectives of fighting poverty and creating jobs. It has always been the ANC’s belief that these SOEs belong to the people of South Africa and should be used to make sure that all the people share in the wealth of the country, as required by the Freedom Charter. I thank you.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 – Public Service Commission – put and agreed to.

Vote No 12 – South African Management Development Institute (SAMDI) – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to. (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 14 – Arts and Culture – put and put agreed to. (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Education – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, on 5 June 2006 the DA launched a national campaign around the constitutional right to a basic education, with the release of a document named, and I quote: “Getting the basics right: The state and the right to basic education”. Eight days later, the Human Rights Commission released a damming report on the state of our education. The content of the two reports is virtually identical because they drive the same concern.

The Department of Education keeps talking and not doing anything. Our children are lagging behind by in critical standards in critical areas, in which we need more people with skills. If you check carefully, one will see a direct correlation between skills shortage and the areas highlighted as the ones in which we are performing badly as a country.

Principals of non-performing schools should be held accountable. Principalship should not be a lifetime job, but, must be based on performance, just like a Chief Executive Officer of any company would be fired for not bringing results or profits. Some of the teachers are earning what they have not worked for. Root out the nonperformers and bring back those who are willing and have the ability to teach. We have the money, so let us deliver what this nation deserves.

In the last 10 years, each Minister came up with a programme that got abandoned along the way without good explanation on its successes and failures. We were told of an outcomes-based education and there is something else today. Schools are still without libraries or resource centres. Where they exist, books are obsolete. Resources are lying unused because teachers not been trained. The DA will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson, the ANC unreservedly supports the Education budget. We have no doubt in our minds that the department is on the right track. In a very short space of time of eleven years, we managed to transform education from unequal rotten and fragmented 14 apartheid departments, to one efficient and effective education system. A system that is based on the principles of the Freedom Charter, which provides quality education to all South Africans.

We want to congratulate the Department of Education for introducing for the first time, free education in some schools. This will go a long way in relieving parents of the albatross of having to worry about their kids. They will now only have to concentrate on other matters that will enable them to grow their children to proper adulthood.

The recapitalisation of FETs could not have come at a better time. This is at the centre of development of scarce skills in our country, in accordance with Jipsa. We commend the Department of Education for properly responding to the skills shortage of our country. This will propel our country to greater heights, in terms of economic development. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 43: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Matlhoahela, B L; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 8: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, M; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN - 1: Van Heerden, F J.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 16 – Health – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, can I ask for your protection? We are exercising our democratic right of allowing speakers from the committee, on which they serve, to speak. All these remarks are nearly racist.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected.

Mr O M THETJENG: Our spokesperson on health, Diane Kohler-Barnard, released a report on the worst hospital in South Africa. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Tau, can you please address the Chair? Can we keep order? We have a lot of work to do here. Continue your debate.

Mr O M THETJENG: The Cecilia Makiwane was one of the hospitals described in her report as being among the worst. This was dismissed as hogwash by the representative of the Department of Health.

Recently, parents lost their dear ones when a power outage hit the hospital, rendering the machinery used to keep these babies alive nonfunctional. The standby generator, a simple but critical pieces of equipment, failed to function. Those babies are no more today, and their parents are left with great pain. This could have been avoided if only the Minister and the MEC concerned had for once listened to the DA.

People do not need ubejane but ARVs to prolong their lives, though we know they will ultimately die as there is not yet a cure for HIV/Aids. We do not need arguments as to whether or not there is a cure for HIV/Aids, but how to roll out the ARVs to prolong the lives of the infected. Children are orphaned early in life, when this could have happened later in their lives when they are able to fend for themselves because people keep on promoting ubejane.

Our facilities are decaying and yet the funds have been made available through the hospital revitalisation programme. Some provinces failed to implement this programme due to a lack of capacity, or to seek partnerships with the private sector where skills and capacity are a serious challenge. The DA will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Ms J M MASILO: Modulasetulo, bomabina-go-tsholwa ba na le go bua fela ba sa itse gore ba tswa kae. Mathata otlhe a re nang le ona, re a tsere mo pusong ya bona e e fetileng. [Chairperson, people who like to take credit for something they did not do normally say things they know nothing about. All the problems we currently have are from the previous regime.]

The ANC supports the Health budget as it is in line with the priorities of the policy of the department, which derives its mandate from the Freedom Charter and the ten-point plan, which seeks to improve the lives of the people, through better and healthier lifestyles.

The roll-out of ARVs throughout the country is strengthening the quality of the care in our hospitals, and there is a choice between getting ARVs from hospitals or from health centres. I thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 42: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Watson, A; Worth, D.

ABSTAIN - 1: Matlhoahela, B L

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Labour – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 18 – Social Development – put and agreed to.

Vote No 19 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put and agreed to (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Correctional Services – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Agb Voorsitter, Korrektiewe Dienste se fokus het verskuif van blote straf na rehabilitasie en oriëntering, maar die gebrek aan fondse en ander faktore maak die uitvoering van hierdie beleid egter onmoontlik.

Die gevangenisse is steeds tot barstens toe vol en daar is net eenvoudig nie genoeg ruimte beskikbaar nie. Dit blyk dat die enigste oplossing wat die Minister vir hierdie probleem het, die vroeë vrylating van gevangenes is. Dit op sig self is problematies en stel die publiek nog meer in gevaar.

Wat die bou van nuwe fasiliteite betref, is dit skokkend dat die beplanning van vier nuwe gevangenisse reeds in 2002 afgehandel is, maar die bouwerk het nog nie eens begin nie. Daar is ook nog onsekerheid oor die finansieringsmodel wat gebruik gaan word, en die werklike koste vir die staat bly net ’n raaisel. Slegs een fasiliteit sal deur die staat gebou word. Die ander sal óf geheel óf gedeeltelik geprivatiseer word.

Ons het ook nie genoeg kundige personeel om rehabilitasie te laat slaag nie. Daar is ’n chroniese tekort aan dokters en sielkundiges en tensy hierdie probleem opgelos word, kan die plan van rehabilitasie nie slaag nie.

Derdens, as gevolg van die swak salarisse van personeel is die moraal van die werkerskorps ook baie laag en sal rehabilitasie nie op die grondvlak suksesvol kan wees nie. Hierdie lae moraal het ook daartoe bygedra dat korrupsie, bende-aktiwiteit en ontsnappings ’n alledaagse verskynsel is. Die DA kan nie die begroting ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Hon Chairperson, the focus of Correctional Services has shifted from mere punishment to rehabilitation and orientation, but the lack of funds and other factors have, however, made the implementation of this policy impossible.

Prisons are still bursting at the seams and there is simply not enough space available. It seems that the only solution the Minister has for this problem is the early release of prisoners. This in itself is problematic and places the public in further danger.

As far as the construction of new facilities is concerned, it is shocking that the planning of four new prisons was already completed in 2002, but that construction has not even started yet. There is also still uncertainty about the financing model that will be used and the real cost to the state simply remains a mystery. Only one

facility will be built by the state. The others will be wholly or partially privatised.

We also do not have sufficient skilled staff for rehabilitation to be successful. There is a chronic shortage of doctors and psychologists and the rehabilitation plan cannot succeed before this problem is solved.

Thirdly, the morale of the workforce is also very low, because of the poor salaries of staff, and rehabilitation at grass-roots level therefore cannot be successful. This low morale has also contributed to corruption, gang activity and escapes becoming everyday occurrences. The DA cannot support the budget.]

Mnr N J MACK: Agb Voorsitter, die ANC ondersteun hierdie begrotingspos. U weet, Korrektiewe Dienste moet met ’n fyn balans hanteer word. In die oue dae was dit tronke en ons is as bandiete beskou. Die groot verandering het al plaasgevind en dit is nou korrektiewe regstelling. Ons probeer die mense beter maak.

Gister het die portefeuljekomitee van die NA Pollsmoor gaan besoek en die regering het definitief gaan kyk wat die situasie is met die kinders in tronke, en hierdie regering het ’n menslike begrip vir hierdie probleem. Die Minister het in sy begrotingsdebat in hierdie Raadsaal verwys na ’n moeder op die galery wat vrygelaat is, op grond van mensliewendheid. Met die bou van tronke het die departement ons deeglik ingelig oor alles wat beplan word en ons het duidelik verstaan dat hierdie tronke in fases gebou gaan word.

Ons moenie so kortsigtig wees en dan vergeet ons van die verlede nie. In die verlede was die hele beleid – en die DA was deel van daardie ou regering – een van vang hulle en hang hulle! Daar is glad nie meer daardie beleid nie. Ons het ’n heel menslike beleid. Ons wil hierdie regering en die departement baie bedank en ons ondersteun heelhartig die mensliewendheid en die kundigheid wat in die departement bestaan. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr N J MACK: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. You know, a fine balance must be maintained in Correctional Services. In the old days there were prisons, and we were regarded as convicts. The big change has already taken place and now we have corrective measures. We are trying to reform people.

The portfolio committee of the NA visited Pollsmoor yesterday and the government definitely went to see what the situation is with regard to children in prisons, and this government has empathy for this problem. In his budget debate in this Council, the Minister referred to a mother on the gallery who had been released on humane grounds. Regarding the construction of prisons, the department has informed us thoroughly about everything that is being planned and we clearly understood that these prisons would be built in phases.

We should not be so short-sighted and then forget about the past. The whole policy in the past – and the DA was part of that old government – was a matter of: Catch them and hang them! That policy no longer exists. We have a quite humane policy. We want to thank this government and the department very much and we fully support the humanity and expertise that there is in the department. [Applause.]]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 42: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N B; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN - 1: Matlhoahela, B L.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 21 - Defence – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 22– Independent Complaints Directorate – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 23– Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, at the heart of the criminal justice system is our courts and this is the core business of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.

A recent report by the Public Service Commission found that access to the courts is still unsatisfactory. The majority of court users lack basic information and processes are not explained. In addition, the condition of many buildings is poor and more than half of the 780 courts around the country are still not electronically connected or properly secured.

More than 200 prosecutors’ posts are presently vacant and there are large backlogs of cases at all levels of the courts, which are not meeting their targets. Clearly the performance of our courts is below par and the Minister’s much vaunted Re Aga Boswa campaign has not delivered.

Whilst there are some centres of excellence in the department, such as the asset forfeiture unit and the Scorpions, events in the department during the past year have raised serious concerns about sound administration, managerial and human resources capacity and procedural correctness. These are just some of the reasons why the DA cannot support the Budget Vote this year.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, after the general election of 1994 South Africa changed the old order to a new order. However, judicial matters were not seen as a priority.

The IFP believes that the TRC Act sets out a clear distinction between political offenders and criminal offenders. The IFP therefore submitted almost 400 applications for presidential pardons on behalf of prisoners, whom we felt were not criminal offenders but political offenders.

Yet, after almost three years we have not heard any positive response from the hon Minister, who is responsible for processing the applications and making recommendations to the President.

The IFP believes that the hon Minister has the ability to apply the law evenly to all political prisoners of all political parties, so that the President could make a final decision. We therefore urge the hon Minister to process the applications as quickly as possible. Despite all of this, the IFP supports the Budget Vote.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, the department has embarked on a programme called, Re Aga Boswa. This programme is aimed at bringing justice to the people. It is aimed at ensuring that the courts are accessible to our people, through building these courts in the townships and in the rural areas.

The proper management of case dockets to ensure that the cases move faster without undue delays is also taking place in our courts. The conviction rate has increased in our courts and specialised courts to deal with family and sexual violence have been established and we can say, overall, that justice is grinding faster with a caring face.

The rule of law in our country is setting in, including for those fathers who run away from their children and do not pay maintenance. People who are tracing these fathers have been employed. This means that any person who is not taking responsibility for his actions, must know that it is over.

The Department of Justice is doing very well. Anybody who can say that this is not so, must be blind. Thank you very much, Chair.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 44: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Matlhoahela, B L; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Heerden, F J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 8: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24– Safety and Security - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, the problems associated with the SA Police Service are too numerous to mention. Some of the most chronic shortages are in the detective services, crime prevention, forensic science laboratories and criminal record centres. There is simply no way crime will be under control while this situation is allowed to continue.

It is estimated that some 150 women and children are raped and 51 people murdered every day in South Africa. As a result of this, the public is losing faith in the police to protect them. A large number of South Africans fear using public transport or letting their children play in public open spaces or allowing their children to walk to school.

The government’s primary duty is to protect its citizens from harm. The Minister and his department have the power to prevent the ever violent and escalating crime. The hon Minister of Safety and Security says that crime victims should rather emigrate but his wife, the Minister of Home Affairs, cannot process the necessary passports. Until crime is brought down to acceptable levels and there is the certainty that criminals will be caught and punished, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to remind hon Worth that the ANC has a programme and a plan for this government. To run the government is not an event but a process. I am surprised by the DA members who were there in the committee and were debating and who supported this Bill. It is only now, after they were with their bosses, that they have changed their minds. [Interjections.]

We know that we are on track as the government, if we look at the President’s address on the police in 2007. The ANC is still on track in that regard, and when dealing with the police we are dealing with the legacy of the DA. They have forgotten about that. [Interjections.] The ANC supports this Budget Vote so that we can improve the working of the police. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 25- Agriculture – put and agreed to.

Vote No 26- Communications – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 27– Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put and agreed to.

Vote No 28- Housing - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, South Africa has come a very long way in improving the lives of our people and communities. Housing should therefore be our main focus.

Twelve years after the advent of democracy some of the tenders awarded to developers and builders leave much to be desired. We also never had the outcome of cases of embezzlement of moneys provided to these developers and builders. The IFP believes that such cases should be referred to the assets forfeiture unit so that the properties of the guilty could be attached by court order and sold in execution to recover the department’s money. Despite this, we still support the Budget Vote.

Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, of course, as the ANC, with our historic mission of creating a society that is united, democratic and nonsexist, we have identified housing as one of the critical instruments that will ensure that such a society is a society in which our people will benefit. During the Budget Vote debate, as the ANC, we unreservedly supported the Budget Vote, precisely because of the issues that were raised and that the department has committed itself to.

One of the critical things that the department raised in relation to the very same questions that the IFP passed, was the 3% of the equitable share that provinces would be required to use, in order to deal with the projects with regard to housing. That is a matter that the department has reflected on in its strategic plan over this financial year.

The second aspect that comes out as important – and which the IFP has to deal with – is that the department has said that there are systems in place to deal with elements of corruption within the department. There are systems, there are people who have been arrested and there are people who will be brought before a court of law, especially those that have been given money to build houses that are nowhere to be seen. On the basis of that we, as the ANC, find the allegations – if there are any – to be quite unfounded and wasteful. We support the Budget Vote.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 29 – Land Affairs – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 30 – Minerals and Energy - put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, there is a looming energy crisis facing South Africa as Eskom has basically run out of base load power generation capacity. Currently the reserve capacity of electricity generation is approximately 5%, with the forthcoming winter ensuring that load shedding will be a certainty, as currently being experienced in the Western Cape.

The Minister of Trade and Industry, on the day before the local government elections on 1 March 2006, stated that the failure of the Koeberg nuclear reactor was due to sabotage and undertook to ensure that the matter would be investigated properly. Yesterday in this House the Minister said that the report would be available either next week or the week after that. We urgently await the report.

With respect to REDs it is clear that RED1 can merely be described as an outsourced function of the Cape Town Metro Council, without any assets and still in the process of restructuring, nearly a year since it was formed. In addition, the number of REDs has arbitrarily been increased by Cabinet from six to seven, whilst the boundaries have been changed to reflect the six metros, with the national metro comprising all the other municipal councils. The state of affairs in respect of the implementation and constitutionality of issues relating to this is ...

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member referred to Minister Erwin. He is the Minister for Public Enterprises. He is not the Minister of Minerals and Energy.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Alec Erwin is not the Minister of Minerals and Energy.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: I didn’t refer to him as the Minister in that portfolio. I just referred to the statement he made on Koeberg.

The state of affairs in respect of the implementation and constitutionality of issues relating to this is at best disgraceful. Bad planning and a lack of foresight are evident, with its resultant collapse in the near future not being impossible.

The Oilgate saga is a clear example of the manipulation of state entities to the benefit of the ANC at the cost of the public. It is an indisputable fact that R11 million was paid to the ANC a few days before Christmas in 2003 – a nice Christmas present, I think, before the election of 2004. It was paid by Imvume that secured lucrative oil contracts from the Iraqi government due to the assistance of senior ANC members, leading to this enormous payback as thanks for their efforts.

The double payment by PetroSA to the supplier of the oil before the money was due, indicates how the ANC is prepared to muzzle public entities and unscrupulously use private companies and institutions to its own benefit. The ANC should therefore be forced to pay back this money, which it has extorted from PetroSA at the cost of the South African public. We cannot support this Budget Vote.

Mrs N D NTWANAMBI: Chair, let me say, first of all, that the ANC supports the Budget Vote.

NgesiXhosa sithi, ithemba alibulali. Abantu bakuthi bahlala belinde utshintsho. Ngoku xa kufuneka kwenziwe, abo baxhamlayo bayalila.

[In isiXhosa we say, you must not lose hope. Our people are always waiting for change. When there must be implementation, those who are benefiting are complaining.]

We do so, because this department has made sure that minerals in this country do not belong to a few white people but rather benefit South Africans, particularly those who were disadvantaged.

In as far as Eskom is concerned, it is unfortunate that the member was not present when we were briefed. Let me tell her that Eskom is now 95% functional and they are making sure that they increase capacity. A new reactor is being built very near Koeberg in Atlantis and there is another one for the southern Cape. Those are the two areas that were really affected by the outages.

The laws that govern this country stipulate clearly that in order for the country to progress, the best thing is to close the gap in the economy. In as far as energy is concerned, we know very well that the rising cost of oil is something we have to consider. It cannot be only one person’s problem. It is for us all.

The issue of biofuels is something that the department and the Minister is considering. As the Congress of the People drew up the programme in 1955, we are here to do nothing else but implement that. This is in order for this country to recognise that today is better than yesterday and tomorrow will be better than today. I urge all of us, including the DA, to support this Budget Vote.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 43: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hendrickse, N D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, E S; Mack, N J; Madlala-Magubane, N M; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J M; Matlanyane, H F; Matlhoahela, B L; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L J; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, J; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, B J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N.

Special delegates: Moerane-Mamase, N; Phenduka, N C; Radebe, M.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry – put and agreed to.

Vote No 33 - Transport – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry - put and agreed to.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.

Schedule agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I now call upon the Minister of Education. I’m sorry. It’s the Minister of Finance. [Laughter.]

Minister, I am sorry that you couldn’t vote. I could see that you wanted to vote, but you couldn’t vote.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I felt very deprived at not being able to vote, as though democracy hadn’t arrived in my life. But, thank you very much.

On 28 March, the NCOP adopted the 2006 Division of Revenue Bill in Kuruman during its initiative of taking Parliament to the people. We refer to that occasion because the Division of Revenue Bill is not only a concrete expression of co-operative relations between our three spheres of government, but it also establishes an important link between the national Appropriation Bill we are debating today, and the provincial budgets.

The House will recall that Schedule 1 of the Division of Revenue Bill sets out the share of nationally raised revenue of each tier of government. It is not a mistake that the Schedule shows conditional grants to provinces as part of the national share. Strictly speaking, conditional grants are national money. The same conditional grants get appropriated on national and provincial Votes of the relevant departments.

In the 2006 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, R85 billion is allocated to provinces in the form of conditional grants. Of this amount, R32 billion is allocated to Health for a range of programmes, including the training of various health professionals, for tertiary health services; R23 billion is for low-cost housing; R15 billion has been allocated via the Treasury Vote for stepping up general infrastructure programmes in Education, Health, Roads and Agriculture; R7 billion is for transport infrastructure, including the Gautrain; R5,8 billion is for Education, the school nutrition programme and the recapitalisation of further education and training colleges; and R1,3 billion is for agricultural programmes such as farmer support for emerging farmers under the umbrella of the comprehensive agricultural support programme.

The programmes that we are funding through earmarked national allocations, that is, conditional grants, are undoubtedly some of the priority programmes in our government’s programme of action.

These programmes are at the heart of the progressive realisation of a better life for all. That is why we elected to fund them the way we do. That is why we have chosen to have joint responsibility for their oversight. This House, working closely with the provinces, has a duty to ensure that the outputs and outcomes of these programmes are realised. Failure in this regard is clearly not an option.

It is important that when we challenge each other to do better, we never lose sight of commending ourselves when we do well. The hearings of the Select Committee on Finance and the section 32 quarterly reports are commendable. They are a good example of what Parliament can do ... Yes, you may applaud. [Applause.] They are a good example of what Parliament can do within the legal framework and the information generated within our system of governance to exercise its legitimate oversight role.

The hon Ralane would agree that this process has come a long way to become what it is today. In the initial stages, we used to debate the accuracy or otherwise of the data contained in the reports. Some departments would even attempt to use the forum to ask for more money or ``to plead poverty’’, to quote hon Ralane. In recent times, all participants have come to accept that the hearings are about accounting for the use of resources and performance. Hon Ralane and other members of the select committee, please keep up this good work. [Applause.]

I have taken the time to explain why it is important for the Appropriation Bill to be debated in this House, because I think it is important for us in the executives of both national and provincial governments to accept that we must be held accountable for the resources that Parliament allocates in the Division of Revenue Bill, and further appropriates in this Bill.

Thank you very much for your patience in listening to me. Again, congratulations to the NCOP and the select committee, in particular, for its efforts. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, Ministers of Finance and Transport, the crucial question for us today is the recognition that Africa and South Africa, in particular, has earned from the international community.

In the annual international survey of 2005, Gallop International declares that even though Africa is not the richest continent, it is nevertheless staunchly optimistic about its future. Africa has good reason to be cheerful. The economy of the continent has been performing appreciably well, with South Africa having experienced spectacular growth over the past few years.

Some of Africa’s long-running conflicts, such as the war in the Democratic Republic of Congo, have ended. Significantly, in the person of Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, Liberia has given Africa its first female head of state. Other commentators argue that although South Africa inherited a huge load of trouble from the disintegrating apartheid government, the ANC government has developed policies that have driven an impressive 90 straight months of growth in every aspect of life.

Since early 2000, the fiscus began to move into a more expansionary phase. This means that, in the first instance, there is more money for the programme of social grants, mainly for child support and pensions destined to go to about 10 million indigent people in a population of 47 million. According to our government, this is a modern-day Keynesian practice with a measure of Roosevelt’s New Deal.

The government has voted R370 billion over the next three years. This will be devoted to Public Works, mainly infrastructure, to boost jobs, and create more demand that will spread more evenly. The government’s longer-term aim is to raise the growth rate to 6% by 2010, and to halve unemployment and poverty by the year 2014.

International commentators such as The Economist have argued that our government has been refreshingly pragmatic in experimenting with a mix of solutions in different sectors of the economy. In a vital sense, therefore, the ANC is not an ordinary party. It faces no serious competition.

The economic intelligence unit were accused that with a budget deficit of this size, South Africa would easily be able to fund it with a mixture of foreign and domestic debt. More revealing, however, is the study carried out in December 2005 by the World Bank and our Department of Trade and Industry. Eight hundred private companies were asked about the investment climate in South Africa. The answer they gave was encouraging. When compared not only to African countries, but also economies like Malaysia, Brazil and Eastern Europe, South Africa looks good.

Firms say that local courts work well. Property rights are adequately protected. Power is relatively cheap. Tax rates are fairly low. Red tape is no worse than in other countries with similar per capita income. In addition, both South African firms surveyed find it easier to borrow. In any case, they do not have to call the bank that often. On average, they are more profitable than their counterparts in, say, Poland or Malaysia.

The early announcement of transfers by National Treasury to local government and municipalities is a fine demonstration of our continually evolving intergovernmental fiscal relations.

Other comparable countries have taken between 30 and 40 years to develop stable intergovernmental fiscal relations. South Africa’s progress in this regard is most noteworthy.

With government finances now in order, the problem is not money, but the ability to spend. Many departments and municipalities underspent their investment budgets in South Africa because we have few qualified people to design and manage projects.

As elected representatives we have an overwhelming duty to focus not only on the national Budget, but also on the budgets of the nine provinces and the 283 municipalities. Elected representatives are expected to focus on outputs and outcomes to be delivered by all three spheres of government.

In order to provide the Freedom Charter with tangible legitimacy, members of this House must be committed to exercising their oversight responsibilities. The Select Committee on Finance will inspect intensely the following: the monthly reports of actual revenue and expenditure with regard to national revenue; quarterly reports of provincial treasuries; annual reports and strategic plans of national and provincial departments; reports of the Auditor-General and the media budgetary assessment reports of municipalities.

Moreover, an oversight responsibility calls for an examination of performance against measurable objectives. Reports submitted by departments and municipalities must not leave information to the imagination of the reader. Reports should provide details such as project names, location, type of structure, number of units, project duration, completion date and project costs.

The monitoring process adopted by departments and municipalities will also be interrogated. Raising questions and tabling of discussions on matters of importance in the NCOP are effective mechanisms for enhancing parliamentary democracy and for exercising oversight responsibilities.

Parliamentary questions are important instruments for monitoring the performance of national, provincial and municipal structures, and for providing an essential check on the activities of the various spheres of government.

It is expected of the NCOP members to employ this method of engaging national departments, provincial departments and municipalities. Questions are not arbitrarily selected by members, but must essentially dovetail with the oversight functions of the select committees.

Last year, 42 questions relating to provincial grants were submitted to eight national departments. The Select Committee on Finance prioritised the interrogation of provincial grants in terms of its key oversight functions. Through public hearings in the NCOP and the use of questions and replies in the NCOP and the legislatures, members ensure that regular inspection of budgets and expenditure occurs.

This active monitoring of budgets and expenditure at regular intervals would timeously assist in detecting expenditure that is at variance with approved plans of national and provincial departments and municipalities. Regular inspection of expenditure against an approved budget is essential to detect, for example, whether expenditure exceeded any approved limits.

This implies that national departments, provincial departments and municipalities must manage and adhere to the budgets. Any excess expenditure must be reported, and the necessary approval must be obtained to ascertain that such excesses are permissible. The reasons for the excess expenditure are extremely important, and must be included in motivations. The premise that no expenditure may be incurred unless budgeted for or unless necessary approval has been obtained still holds sway.

The Select Committee on Finance once again places on record its congratulations to the National Treasury of South Africa for fulfilling with distinction not only its constitutional responsibility, but also its mandate. The Select Committee on Finance recommends that the House approve the 2006 Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

NATIONAL LAND TRANSPORT TRANSITION AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Deputy Chair, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates from provinces, the National Land Transport Transition Act came into effect in the year 2000, and all spheres of our government began to implement it. Part 7 of the Act only came into effect on 1 June 2002, after the transport planning minimum requirements and guidelines had been developed by the Department of Transport to guide all provinces and local spheres on transport planning.

The National Land Transport Transition Act was a major step in the transformation of public transport in the history of our country and was enacted as a response to the many challenges, weaknesses, inefficiencies and problems confronting public transport in South Africa. It sought to establish a coherent and development-orientated approach to public transport, drawing from all spheres of government.

The main feature of the National Land Transport Transition Act is its requirement for municipal, provincial and national transport planning to be the basis on which all future public transport operating licences are awarded to operators, thus making public transport demand responsive, rather that supply-driven.

Some of the issues raised in these amendments are very urgent, to enable us to implement the taxi recapitalisation programme. In this particular regard, may I express my appreciation to the National Council of Provinces for the way in which the Bill's passage has been expedited during the current parliamentary cycle. The Bill, as we know, seeks to give national, provincial and local spheres of government effective regulatory and practical mechanisms to fast-track the transformation and improvements, while also putting safety measures in place for the benefit of all users.

Amongst other things, the following are the key issues that the amending Bill seeks to address: One, to simplify the transport planning framework; two, to make provision for the new taxi vehicle sizes, in line with the taxi recapitalisation process, to improve safety in the taxi industry; three, to rationalise functions of the Minister, the MECs, registrars and the operating licence boards; four, to regulate the conveyance of our people on adapted or modified light delivery vehicles, the LDVs, metered taxis and tourist service vehicles.

On this point, experiences on the ground in certain areas have dictated a need to regulate the conveyance of people on LDVs to ensure passenger safety. The proposed amending Bill proposes interventions to ensure that passengers in remote and resource-poor areas have access to mobility and are transported in a safe and humane manner while in the short to medium term infrastructure is being improved to cater for mainstream public transport. Lastly, to extend the subsidised contract period from five to seven years to support small, medium and micro enterprises and broad-based black economic empowerment operators.

The proposed National Land Transport Transition Act amendments represent a very significant intervention towards fast-tracking the effective planning, delivery and safety regulation of our public transport transformation in South Africa. Once promulgated into law, these amendments will give relevant authorities enabling frameworks and the necessary environment to fast-track the implementation of key projects such as the taxi recapitalisation project, and to effectively regulate the public transport system in order to ensure that it is sustainable, user-friendly and playing its desired role as the heartbeat of the South African economy.

I have, in a nutshell, outlined some of the critical challenges that we must urgently address with the proposed amending Bill to the National Land Transport Transition Act. I look forward to a constructive debate and will respond accordingly to other issues as they arise, emanating from this debate. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr R J TAU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates from provinces, comrades, once more, in less than a month, we engage in a very important debate under this particular portfolio of transport. This debate is not only important, but critical in that this Bill or piece of legislation before this House stands to transform the lives of our people radically for the better.

For a very long time our people have been calling on us as legislators and government to do something about their plight on our roads. For a very long time we have seen the public transport system being an issue for debate by our people, and calls have been made for government to do something about it.

As we said in the last debate on the Budget Vote for Transport, not only is transport the heartbeat of the South African economy, but also of the social sustenance of our people. Our people use transport for various reasons other than just going to work, ie for active participation in our economy. They use public transport to go to education centres, for business travel, to go on holiday, and migrant workers use it to build families at the end of work seasons.

Of the last-mentioned category, which represents 18% of the South African workforce, about 500 000 workers who travel back home at the end of work seasons regularly use public transport. A total of 74% of the trips are made by taxi and 18% by bus.

We have heard many questions being asked by the very same users of our public transport regarding affordability, safety, comfort and friendliness during travel. It has been reported that our public transport system, as it stands today, is the most unreliable, unsafe and uncomfortable to use, especially our taxis. This state of affairs is quite worrying in that the 2003 national household travel survey key results point out, and I quote:

There are approximately 3,9 million public transport commuters. The 2,5 million taxi commuters account for over 63% of public transport work trips. Bus services account for another 22% of public transport commuters and the balance are carried to work by train. In addition to the 2,5 million commuters who use minibus taxis as their main mode of travel, there are another 325 000 commuters who use taxis either as a feeder mode to other public transport services, or as a distribution service from the main mode to their places of work.

With this kind of scenario, it is quite disturbing to have a situation in which almost half of the taxi passengers and a third of the bus passengers are dissatisfied with the overall quality of service. This, of course, is attributed to a lack of facilities at bus stops, crowding on buses and low frequency at peak hour.

Coupled with this is safety from taxi accidents, lack of facilities at ranks and lack of roadworthiness of vehicles. Therefore, it is once more the ANC that is responding to the needs and the cry of our people by introducing this piece of legislation.

It is this piece of legislation that will see to the transformation of the public transport regime, a regime that has for many years been open to only a few operators who, in their own opinion, are bosses of the road. They determine the routes and the fares. They even determine who gets a permit and how much the person must pay in order to get a permit to operate on that particular route, arguing that they started the routes.

This piece of legislation before us will, in actual fact, open the industry to all South Africans who have an interest to venture into this so-called “closed industry”. With this regime change our people will be better positioned to have their interests well taken care of.

The introduction of the new vehicles to transport our people, fitted with the required safety equipment and thereby adhering to the transport plans, will curb illegal taxis from operating on our roads. We will see to the stabilisation of this particular industry.

We have also noted the fact that most of our people use taxis as a means of transport. However, the fare regime has not been in their favour, because the subsidy system has been in favour of the buses, which, according to a survey, only account for 18% of the passengers.

For the first time my younger sister will be able to board a taxi to work, without carrying an extra blouse in her bag, because she is afraid that the taxi’s door will tear the one she has on. For the first time, she will get to work without being worried about not having the correct taxi fare because it has gone up that particular morning.

For the first time, she will be able to get to work on time because the taxi will not have broken down, and will not get an apology for the inconvenience of an old skorokoro taxi. For the first time, she will be able to get to work sitting comfortably, without being squeezed like a sardine.

After passing this piece of legislation I will go to bed knowing definitely that at least my child’s transport is fitted with all the necessary equipment to get her to school safely. I know that with the passing of this piece of legislation I will hear less about the number of children that died whilst being transported to school in unsafe and unroadworthy bakkies in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga, etc.

Once more, through this piece of legislation, the poor and workers will feel more protected as they move from one area to another, whether it is to work, to the nearest clinic, school, shopping place or sports ground. Given the public hearings that were held throughout our country and provinces, and the resultant support for the Bill, concerns raised will be addressed in the process of finalisation and implementation of the Bill.

In supporting the Bill, the select committee calls upon all relevant stakeholders to support this Bill because it is quite an important instrument, not only in terms of words or sayings, but, in actual fact, in terms of action.

We know for a fact that not all the issues that were raised during the public hearings will find space. However, the committee is sure that most of the issues that affect particular people directly and negatively will be incorporated in the Bill. Nevertheless, we regard this as a process that would lead us in the right direction. On behalf of the Select Committee on Public Services, I call upon the House to support the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, in addressing this House with one arm – as I am doing now - on this Bill, which has been tagged as a section 76 Bill, I should simply express the mandate of my province, because in the end it will be the provinces that will be voting for this Bill - as they have been called upon to do by the hon chairperson of the select committee.

Indeed, I am in possession of a mandate signed by the Speaker of the Mpumalanga Legislature, dated 6 June, but it is unfortunately not quite that simple. The truth is that Rule 32 (1) of the rules of my province, Mpumalanga, determines that unless otherwise provided by an Act of Parliament contemplated in section 65(2) of the Constitution, authority to cast votes on behalf of the province shall be conferred by way of resolution of the legislature within the timeframes required by the NCOP. All mandates conferred have to be approved by the House, in the same way that the mandate to reject the Older Persons Bill was handled yesterday.

The problem is, of course, that no such vote was taken in regard to this mandate, and I’ve scrutinised all the Minutes and all the documents since 2 June. So, the legislature in my province, which I can speak for, certainly did not authorise the mandate, which I’m sure the province would vote for. We all know that the real mandate comes from Shell House. But that’s not making a wrong right. In fact ... [Interjections.]

Mr R J TAU: On a Point of Order, Chairperson: I think it is important that this House should not be misled, because the reality of the matter is that we do not know if that reference to Shell House is intended as a reference to the ANC – that should be clarified. Where or what is this Shell House that this hon member is talking about where a mandate then comes from?

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, it is common knowledge that Shell House refers to the ANC; the headquarters of the ANC.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): No. Thank you, hon Watson you are wrong. There’s no Shell House. [Interjections.] Will you withdraw “Shell House”.

Mr A WATSON: I will withdraw Shell House, but ... I will withdraw it, but I won’t pay its rent.

In terms of the rule of law, which my party feels very strongly about, I cannot convey the mandate that I have in writing because it is in fact illegal. I have no doubt that my province and many others will vote for it, but that doesn’t make it good. However important the recapitalisation programme is and however well it was window-dressed by both the Minister and the hon chairperson, this is still bad legislation and it will actually impact on Asgisa. In terms of the tourism programme portrayed in Asgisa ... [Interjections.]

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: On a Point of Order: The hon member said these things had been window-dressed. Can he just explain what he means by that, because it was never window-dressed?

Mr A WATSON: I said it was bad legislation. It is a little bit like cutting and pasting of an already transitional Bill, which, in fact, is the transition of an existing Bill, and contains actual inaccuracies. In the Bill reference is made to consultation with the portfolio committee of the National Assembly. This Bill has not even gone to the National Assembly, so no consultation has taken place in regard to these amendments that are now before the House.

In my own province, when I did the briefing to the province, the Department of Transport officials were there. And when they were questioned by the chairperson of our portfolio committee in our province, they confirmed that consultation only took place within the department. No outside consultation took place. Hurriedly three sessions were arranged for consultation with the public and stakeholders, but on the same day and at the same time and, as expected, one of these sessions had no attendance whatsoever.

So, I’m saying again that we are stuck here with bad legislation; legislation that will impact negatively on the tourism of our country, which is based more or less here in Cape Town and in Gauteng, the gateways of South Africa as far as tourism is concerned.

I am happy to see that at least Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal couldn’t see their way clear to giving mandates. The Western Cape – and I saw it myself - made a submission of 17 pages. I see very little of it in the amendments that have now been approved and are before you. So, I reiterate my concern ... [Interjections.]

Mr R J TAU: On a Point of Order: Once more, Chairperson, I appeal that hon Watson should withdraw the statement that Gauteng did not submit a final negotiating mandate. As chairperson of the select committee, I’m sitting with a final mandate from Gauteng and, therefore, I think that it is important that, on a consistent basis, hon Watson should be cautioned not to ... [Interjections.] ... in any case, he’s wasting lots of time, because I can’t finish. I have to wait to listen to him.

Mr A WATSON: I’m sure that Gauteng can speak for themselves – I see they are on the speakers’ list. But as of yesterday ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Watson, I do have a letter with regard to Gauteng.

Mr A WATSON: I did say that they can speak for themselves. But as of yesterday, I was unable to obtain from the committee secretary any form of final mandate. But I return to my point on the Western Cape, which had made a submission of 17 pages - and that was substantial amendments proposed to a Bill that has no political content. It is a Bill that should be amended in the interest of our country and in the interest of Asgisa, which is a programme of the Presidency, and a Bill which we now have to leave to the National Assembly’s portfolio committee to do the right thing.

I’m sure that - and I believe that many of the members would in private agree – we are fervently hoping that the National Assembly will do the right thing. We hope that they will investigate this Bill properly, that they will have proper public hearings and that this Bill will not be steamrolled through Parliament by the department - and that eventually they will come back to us in a form that we can finally accept. I thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Watson, I want to correct you. The headquarters of the ANC is Luthuli House, not Shell House. It has not had a name change.

Eerw P MOATSHE: Ja, dis ’n moeilike affêre hierdie. Ek weet nie of die agb Watson hom al ooit van punt A na punt B in ’n taxi bevind het nie, en ek dink dis as gevolg daarvan dat hy hierdie houding ingeneem het, om liewer oor toerisme te praat as oor die vervoer van ons mense in die hele Suid-Afrika. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Rev P MOATSHE: Yes, this is a difficult matter. I do not know whether the hon Watson has ever travelled from point A to point B in a taxi, and I think that as a result of this, he has adopted this approach of speaking about tourism rather than about the transport of our people in the whole South Africa.]

I think this Bill is long overdue and it cannot be delayed unless we live in a different world and not in South Africa. Our people are dying because this industry has not been regulated. Only a few people have been regulating it in the way that they want. One place differs from the other. The main aim of this Bill is to regulate so that there is uniformity in the entire country for the safety of our people.

Maybe it is because we live in two worlds. The other world does not use taxis. They are quite capable of using their cars because they are rich. There are people who do not have any means of transport and who depend solely on the taxis, the buses. That is why there is this outcry that the taxis should also be subsidised. Obviously I think, hon member, we are talking from different perspectives.

In spite of the fact that provinces would have loved to have more public hearings, obviously those provinces that took the matter seriously had their public hearings. That is why we as a select committee received the appropriate submissions by these provinces. I don’t think what the hon member said here carries much weight. How do you equate this with tourism? I think in the tourism field things are fine. There are no skoroskoro [rickety] taxis in the field of tourism. They are on our roads. They are unlicensed, and so on.

This government wants to take a positive step so that these correctional measures are taken. Therefore, this Council will have to support the Bill or are we still living in two worlds? Do we still have two South Africas? I can’t believe it. At this point in time we should understand what the dynamics and the challenges are that we are facing.

The transport sector in any economy, no matter how big or small, determines to a large extent the pulse rate of that economy. Our country is no exception. The role of transport as an input sector in the economy is critical and requires extensive and sustainable investment in all its facets. Moreover, given the crucial role it has to play in the second economy, further investment is required in the public transport sector to ensure the transformation of the current commuter system to an integrated public transport system. This should serve the entire South African society, particularly focusing on improving efficiency in the transport services in urban areas and extending services to the previously disadvantaged and rural areas.

The Department of Transport’s obligations are underpinned by the constitutional and legislative mandates. Thus it places great responsibility on the department to ensure sustainable, reliable, safe and efficient movement of people and goods. This, we believe, is the pursuit locally, on the continent and internationally, by means of a transport system that responds to the needs of the integrated first and second economies. Therefore, we are entrusted with the responsibility to ensure that the Department of Transport discharges its obligations sincerely in regard to the challenges of economic growth, social cohesion and poverty alleviation.

It is indeed incumbent upon the department to encourage participation in socioeconomic activities over the broadest possible spectrum. Our concerns as the ANC are highlighted by the comprehensive national household services survey of 2003 that canvassed 50 000 people countrywide. This survey revealed extremely high levels of dissatisfaction about lack of safety, security on trains and affordability amongst our people. It shows that a large percentage of South Africans spend more than 10% of their income and in some instances even more than 20% on public transport. This is seriously disconcerting. What the survey also shows is that our people are very passionate and equally angry about the state of public transport.

Which brings us to the Bill before us today. The provision of safe, affordable, accessible intermodal public transport is envisaged as a key objective in our major policy documents, notably, “Moving South Africa”, in the Action Agenda. Although the Bill is wide-ranging in terms of the scope of the amendment, it seeks to give expression to some of the imperatives spelled out in this policy document.

In this regard, sections 7 and 8 provide for the Minister to prepare, on an annual basis and in consultation with the MECs, a five-year National Land Transport Strategic Framework for the country. In addition, the Minister is also statutorily bound to update the National Land Transport Strategic Framework. This we believe will not only rectify some of the complexities associated with planning and co-ordinating, but it is also more realistic than the previous provision of updating every year.

Moreover, in section 10, the question of transport across provincial boundaries and areas of planning authorities is addressed through the provision for integrated transport plans. This amendment is necessitated by, for example, the operation of particularly tourist buses across provincial boundaries.

Let us support this Bill. It is long overdue. Our people out there are waiting. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mnu M A MZIZI: Asikuvume lokhu ukuthi lengane njengoba bengike ngasho ngathi isencane kodwa yathi uma sekufanele ikhase kwangena isifo yase igula. Kwase kudinga ukuthi kwelashwe leso sifo njengoba senza lezi zichibiyelo namnlanje, ngokolimi lwabeziwe lokhu kwaziwa nge-amendemnt. Kuyabonakala-ke ukuthi lezi zichibiyelo zizosisiza mhlawumbe ukuthi lengane ikwazi ukusukuma igijime. Ngakho-ke i-IFP ithi, cha, ake siyinike ithuba lengane icathule bese sibona ukuthi izogijima na? Uma isigijima izozifeza izidingo na?

Bengingathanda kodwa uNgqongqoshe akathi ukuchaza laphayana kubagibeli abahlanganisa ukuhamba ngemoto eyodwa ukuya emsebenzini ukuthi awuzukusidalela izinkinga na ngenxa yemizila yamatekisi, ngoba iyonanto eyinkinga kubantu bamatekisi uma kuzoba khona abagibeli abazohlanganisa ukuhamba ngemoto eyodwa ukuya emsebenzini besebenzisa imizila yamatekisi. Nokho-ke ngithi, cha, unwele olude. Ake siyinike indlela lengane ihambe. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Let us agree that this child, as I have said, is still small, and when he was supposed to start crawling, he contracted a disease and fell ill. Then, that disease had to be cured, which is why we are making these amendments today; what is called “amendments” in English. It is clear that these amendments will help so that this child can get up and run. Therefore, the IFP is of the view that we need to give this child the opportunity to crawl, and then see if he can run. Is he going to meet the set objectives when he is up and running?

I would, however, like the hon Minister to give clarity on whether the lift club that uses one vehicle to and from work is not going to cause problems for us because of taxi routes. The problem with taxi owners is that they will not allow lift club vehicles to use taxi routes. I wish to say: Long live! Let us give right of way to this child so that he can walk. [Applause.]]

Ms N C PHENDUKA (Western Cape): Thank you, Chair. Minister, hon members, I greet you all. Yes, I agree with the hon member Watson, who said that we didn’t deal with the politics of the Bill. We dealt with the Bill because we think that it is long overdue. We are supposed to deal with the issues at hand.

The comments from the Western Cape include the comments received from the provincial Department of Transport and Public Works, and SATSA and SABAWU. It is understood that the proposed Bill deals only with what the national Department of Transport considered as urgent, in order to enable the effective implementation of the Act, and to incorporate the changes required by the taxi recapitalisation programme.

The Western Cape wishes to make comments as follows: Firstly, the comments on proposed amendments suggesting a redraft of the amending Bill are provided. Secondly, the comments on issues to be incorporated in the substantial redraft of the National Land Transport Transition Act are also provided. The full document of comments has been forwarded to the Department of Transport and is available for distribution.

With regard to the comments on the amending Bill, I wish to highlight some of the more significant comments, namely, clause 1 (b), (c) and (d). A new definition is suggested for the seating capacity for a minibus, midibus and bus. These definitions are in conflict with the definitions in the Road Traffic Act, Act 93 of 1996, and we should withdraw the traffic regulations in this Act.

It is recommended that the capacity definition of the bus, minibus and midibus in the Road Traffic Act and its regulations be removed from the Act, and instead, the definitions of these vehicles be lodged in the NLTTA with the necessary cross-references. It is also recommended that the definition of a metered taxi should be amended in the Bill, to be consistent with the definition of the other vehicle types, by increasing the maximum number of seated persons from fewer than 9 to 10 persons.

Secondly, clause 5(a), (c), (e) and (f) suggests the deletion of the current plan, which is the current public transport record and the operating licence strategy, the rationalisation plan and the public transport plan, and their incorporation into a single intergrated transport plan (ITP). However, with the deletion of the current statutory plan, the guidelines for the ITPs are presumably also removed from the statute, and will need to be replaced. It is recommended therefore that the new comprehensive regulations on transport planning are published, in order to coincide with the promulgation of the Bill.

Clauses 5(d), 6(b) and 10(a) suggest that only those authorities that are requested by the MEC to do so are requested to prepare ITPs and to make recommendations to the licensing board. It is recommended therefore that all planning authorities must prepare ITPs and must make recommendations to the board.

Clause 13 suggests the type of vehicles that may be used in the public transport service. There is no provision for vehicle types with a passenger capacity of less than 11 seated persons, including the driver, thus eliminating the metered taxis and certain other categories, such as small tourism vehicles, from being able to obtain operating licences. It is therefore recommended that a category be introduced to allow for vehicles carrying up to 10 persons, including the driver.

Clause 18 imposes technical standards for brakes on vehicles used for long distance public transport operations. It is considered and recommended that such safety specifications should rather be lodged in the Road Traffic Act and its regulations. Clause 19 imposes certain restrictions on replacement vehicles.

It is agreed that any vehicle primarily used for regular planned public transport, should be replaced by a vehicle of the same passenger capacity, as specified in the operating licence. However, this does not apply to tourism vehicles, which are produced in different seating capacities, depending on the manufacturer’s specifications.

When a tour bus is replaced, it may be replaced by a slightly smaller or larger vehicle, which should allow for the discretion of the vehicle operator. Thus it is considered that a latitude of 20% smaller or larger, in relation to the vehicle being replaced, should be provided for.

Clause 20 allows the MEC to set the fares of metered taxis without consultation with the municipalities. It is considered that consultation should be extended to the municipality concerned, as they, being planning authorities, may have policies in their transport plans with regard to the fares and prices of the public transport services.

Clause 21 attempts to regulate tourism services. It is considered that no benefit will be gained by requiring a tourist board or a similar body to give recommendations to the board on operating licence applications. Tourism bodies are concerned with the tourism market and have little knowledge of supply and demand for tourism transport vehicles. It is therefore recommended that the entire section 21 be omitted from the Bill.

There are two issues that are not covered in the amending Bill which, in the opinion of the Western Cape, are also urgent and should be included. It is considered that the administration of the minibus taxi recapitalisation processes require better-defined legislation and linkage with the transport plan. Little appears in the NLTTA besides the provisions of section 31, which only provides the definition of the vehicle size. It is considered that the programmes, which are likely to cost in the order of R7 billion or more and which will occur over a period of some years, should have detailed legislation on how it should be administered.

There are complex administration processes in this process to roll out the recapitalisation that will also involve the provinces, requiring a consistency of approach and properly managed financial procedures. It is therefore recommended that a new section should be added to the Act, which requires that each vehicle for which an operating licence has been issued, must be subjected to a roadworthy inspection every six months. This should be conducted by the registered testing centre within seven days of the anniversary of the renewal of the vehicle licence, and repeated every six months after this date.

The original certificate of roadworthiness must be held in the vehicle so that it can be furnished to an authorised officer, failing which it is considered an offence and the operating licence is invalid. The more significant comments on the substantial overhaul of the NLTTA include that fundamental changes take place in the legislation to provide for tourism transport.

The following are other significant comments. The definition of courtesy service should be amended so as to require contracted services to be in possession of an operating licence. A new section should be developed to administer and set rules for the operation of lift clubs. As long as the responsibility for different public transport services, by different authorities, persists, an alternative to the constitution of the Transport Authority Act should be developed.

A new provision for temporary operating licences should be developed to better define conditions under which these permits are granted. The operating licences are not considered as property or a right and all such licences lapse after a defined period. The need for operating licences should be initiated by the planning authorities in terms of their transport plans, and not by the service providers or taxi associations.

The right of the board to make decisions without the recommendation of the planning authorities should be removed. The requirement that minibus taxi operators must be members of associations should be relaxed a little bit. The emphasis placed on the role of the association as being a key institutional component of the public transport system should be diminished. The Registrar should be responsible for accrediting the applicants.

I thank you, Chairperson. The Western Cape fully supports the Bill, but with the amendments that we have provided. [Applause.]

Ms N MOERANE-MAMASE (Eastern Cape): Hon Chair, hon Minister and the members of the House, good afternoon. As the Eastern Cape we participated throughout the process and hence we feel confident that we want to support the Bill without any reservations.

The people of the Eastern Cape welcome the passing of the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, especially the change in policy regarding the use of bakkies as modes of transport or the use of other lightweight vehicles. The Bill manages to capture the difficulties endured by the majority of the people of the Eastern Cape, viz the inaccessibility and shortage of public transport.

As a province, when we got an electoral mandate, we had to provide fast, reliable, secure, accessible transport and hence we feel that this is a progressive Bill. That is why we are not reluctant to support it.

Public transport is inaccessible because of a lack of road infrastructure and operators are reluctant to use their conventional taxis, hence the use of bakkies or LDVs on our roads. The stakeholders welcomed the passenger safety aspect expressed and implied by the Bill as a non-negotiable necessity.

The survey of 2000 revealed that most people in the Eastern Cape walk long distances and others depend on public transport, especially in the form of bakkies or LDVs. The LDVs’ owners expressed concern with regard to the application of the Act, especially with regard to the standards contemplated in the Bill. They are concerned about the conversion costs which may exceed the operating costs, and the question is who is going to carry that cost. That is the question we want to put to the Minister today, because we feel that that needs to be answered.

We are not, therefore, suggesting any recapitalisation of bakkies but such assistance needs to be forthcoming. The people of the province accept the passing of the Bill as it seeks to make their lives better and recognises that much work still needs to be done to make public transport safe, accessible and inexpensive.

The portfolio committee on roads and transport of the Eastern Cape provincial legislature is pleased about the passing of this Bill because of the recent events in the province that highlighted the conveyance of passengers for profit in lightweight vehicles.

The reality on the ground is that the lack of roads in rural areas and also in some urban areas makes the use of bakkies the most viable option. The people who suffer most from the lack of road infrastructure and public transport are the poorest in the province and this makes the Bill even more important than its technical significance of making bakkies comply with the law.

There is a concern, Minister, with regard to the understanding that this transitional Act is for a period of between five and seven years. We welcome that but the issue is: how are we going to monitor the maintenance of roads or even the surfacing of roads so that they comply for that particular period, to ensure that the utilisation of these bakkies has a lifespan limited to this particular period.

It is public knowledge that in provinces like the Eastern Cape it is not only about the roads, but also about the road infrastructure. We talk about bridges because there are areas where some of those bridges were swept away by the rains and as a result we need some pledges. It is a pity that the Minister of Finance has left because one would have wanted to know, with regard to the division of revenue, whether there is really a commitment from the national government to provide money that will fit the occasion. This will ensure that the time span that is allocated here will really be met by the province because of the infrastructural backlogs.

The committee is pleased that vehicles that carry between two and nine passengers are going to be permitted. In a vast province like ours, such a provision is needed because not all transport conditions are the same. I am talking here as someone representing areas where you would wait all day if vehicles that transport 11 or 36 or even 48 passengers were to be utilised, because we know what the mentality of our people is. If the taxi is not full it means that it won’t travel that particular day.

The committee also welcomes the fact that the Bill encourages our public transport to be safer by complying with minimum safety regulations, though we are pleased that the brake to aspect has been removed from the last version of the Bill. However, this shows that a lot of work still needs to be done to ensure that every operator complies with the regulations. The affordability factor of the conversion of the bakkie is worrying, because most of the operators in the province will struggle to acquire such modified vehicles and maintain them in the process.

The committee is satisfied that the Bill will achieve its intended purpose and encourages the Department of Transport to do more in addressing land transport inadequacies. We feel that if all that could be implemented we will walk the talk and better the lives of our people.

Mr R RADEBE (Gauteng): Chairperson, perhaps I must not address myself to hon Watson because I think he must have been on some fishing expedition. I might waste my time addressing myself to him, but suffice it to say that my province engaged thoroughly in the processing of this Bill. We did have public hearings on 19 May, and the attendance was very good, with many participants - except for the taxi organisations. We did discuss our mandate in the committee and adopted it and it was also adopted in the House last week on Thursday.

I will come back to the issues that were raised in the public hearings but as Gauteng we think that the passing of this Bill could not have come at a better time than this. It is being passed when the province has placed public transport at the centre of development in the province.

As we speak, the province is engaged in the adoption of an integrated public transport strategy approach. This process is involved in the spirit of Gauteng being a globally competitive city region. All 50 municipalities in the province have reached agreement around the strategy that Gauteng should have a single transport authority that will be established in January 2007.

The public transport strategy cannot be discussed outside the taxi recap because, as other speakers have said, the majority of commuters in our country use taxis to reach their destinations. Whilst the killings in taxis are no longer in the news and the newspaper headlines, these still continue to afflict the industry. The TRP will ensure that the killings in the taxi industry become a thing of the past.

As a province, which was severely affected by the killings that followed the Satawu strike, we saw that as a setback to us, because people will move away from public transport, if such things do occur.

What is also happening in the province is that last year the province held a commuter indaba, which was attended by more than 1 000 delegates. We think this indaba was very important because it brought together commuters from rail, taxis and buses into one forum. One of the resolutions taken by the commuter indaba was that a provincial commuter organisation must be launched in the province, which is going to happen this year.

The province is also engaged in the construction of the Gautrain. I think the Minister of Finance spoke about it. The concept of the Gautrain has evolved and developed from the one that was envisioned in 2001. The Gautrain will now be integrated into the broader public transport plan in the province.

Our province, Gauteng, will have no problem in dealing with the challenges of hosting a very successful World Cup in 2010, less than four years from now. At least, three stadiums that were earmarked for use during the 2010 World Cup are in the province. The province is engaged in projects around this, which are going to link the Johannesburg International Airport to the city, improving the signage and building other roads.

Tomorrow we will start to engage, in the province, with the discussion plans for public transport month, which will take place in September, together with Car Free Day. Whilst we know that public transport is not ready for these challenges, we as a province want to make our people conscious of the issue of public transport.

I think some of the issues that were raised in the public hearings have been raised here, but none of them caused us to change any of the clauses of the Bill. So, the province would like to support the Bill without any amendment. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr F ADAMS: Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister, agb kamerade en lede, die skrywer John Berger, wenner van die Booker-prys, skryf oor Antonio Gramsci en definieer sy besondere vermoëns soos volg:

Die mins dogmatiese denker oor revolusie wat hierdie eeu opgelewer het, was Antonio Gramsci. Sy gebrek aan dogmatisme spruit uit ’n soort geduld. Hierdie geduld het absoluut niks te make met traagheid of selfgenoegsaamheid nie. Sy besondere geduld spruit uit ’n praktyksin wat nooit tot ’n einde kom nie. Hy het dinge van naby bekyk en het soms rigting gegee aan die politieke stryd van sy tyd, maar hy het nooit vergeet wat die agtergrond was van die ontwikkelende drama waarvan die reikwydte oor onberekenbare eeue heen strek nie. Dit was miskien wat verhoed het dat Gramsci, soos baie revolusionêre, ’n millennialis geword het. Hy het geglo in hoop eerder as beloftes, en hoop is ’n lang storie.

Hierdie verstandigheid onderlê president Thabo Mbeki se stelling dat Suid-Afrika ’n tydperk van hoop betree het, en Suid-Afrika se hoop lê daarin dat ons op die drumpel staan van voorspoed, agb Watson. Hierdie hoop is nóg transendentaal nóg sentimenteel, maar dis gegrond op geduld en eindelose menslike gebruike. Dit plaas elkeen van ons in ’n ontvouende menslike drama waarin ons sowel dogmatisme as selfgenoegsaamheid vermy.

Ons rol in die drama neem reeds vorm aan. Die regering het die dringendheid van die saak besef en die vervoerbedryf het ons gewys op die uitdaging, agb Watson. In die daarstelling van die Nasionale Oorgangswysigingswetsontwerp op Landvervoer het hy bewus geword van ’n omgewing waarin vrees en intrige algemeen was in die land. Dit word van ons wat in gesagsposisies is, agb Watson, verwag om die moed, deursettingsvermoë en visie te hê om ’n veranderde kultuur in te stel en te kweek wat noodsaaklik is vir deursigtige en verantwoordbare bestuur.

Ons moet ons daarvoor beywer om te antwoord op die uitdaging om ’n moderne Afrikastaat te bou deur die filosofiese grondslag te lê van die staat as ontwikkelaar. Eindelose menslike behandeling, soos Gramsci aan sulke wêreldleiers sou verduidelik het, sou daarop aangedring het dat die pad na so ’n toekoms gegrond moet wees op analise, beplanning en strategie. Analise, beplanning en strategie trek van die globale na die plaaslike en lig in van die plaaslike na die globale, agb Robertson.

Volgens die bekroonde beplanningsteoretikus prof Patsy Healey sal dit die mees radikale en verreikende veranderings teweegbring in die benadering wat ons aanvaar het. Sy sê: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Mr Chairman, hon Minister, hon comrades and members, the writer John Berger, winner of the Booker Prize, writes about Antonio Gramsci and defines his exceptional abilities as follows:

The least dogmatic thinker about revolution that this century has produced was Antonio Gramsci. His lack of dogmatism arises from patience. This patience has nothing to do with inertia or self-sufficiency. His exceptional patience arises from a sense of practice that never comes to an end. He viewed things close-up and sometimes gave direction to the political struggle of his time, but he never forgot what the background was of the developing drama that stretched over a period of many centuries. Perhaps this was what prevented Gramsci, unlike many revolutionaries, from becoming a millenniumist. He believed in hope rather than promises, and hope is a long story.

This wisdom is at the heart of President Thabo Mbeki’s statement that South Africa has entered an age of hope, and South Africa’s hope is rooted in the fact that we are on the threshold of prosperity, hon Watson. This hope is neither transcendental nor sentimental, but is based on patience and endless human practices. It places each one of us in an unfolding human drama in which we avoid dogmatism as well as self-sufficiency.

Our role in the drama is already taking shape. The government realised the urgency of the matter and the transport industry pointed out the challenge to us, hon Watson. In the drafting of the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill it became aware of an environment in which fear and intrigue were the order of the day in the country. We who are in positions of authority, hon Watson, are expected to have the courage, perseverance and vision to introduce and cultivate a changed culture, which is essential for transparent and accountable government.

We must endeavour to meet the challenge of building a modern African state by laying the philosophical foundation of the state as developer. Endless human treatment, as Gramsci would have explained to such world leaders, would have insisted that the road to such a future should be based on analysis, planning and strategy. Analysis, planning and strategy move from the global to the local and inform from the local to the global, hon Robertson.

According to the acclaimed planning theorist Prof Patsy Healey this will bring about the most radical and far-reaching changes in the approach that we have adopted. She says:]

Strategy-making is a process of deliberative paradigm change,

hon Watson, paradigm change! -

It aims to change cultural conceptions, systems of understanding and systems’ meaning. It is more than just producing collective decisions. It is about shifting and reshaping convictions.

- which the DA can’t do, hon Watson. [Interjections.]

Hierdie groeitempo is op sigself nie genoeg nie, en dit is die aard van groei wat van kritieke belang is. Ons moet seker maak dat hoër groeitempos gekombineer word met groter maatskaplike gelykheid wat die armes en ekonomies uitgeslote mense in staat sal stel om die middele te bekom om te kan deelneem aan die ekonomie en hulle eie bronne van bemagtiging te bou, saam met die effektiewe beskerming van die natuurlikehulpbron-basis van die land.

In die laaste plek moet groei nie ruimtelike apartheid en ondoeltreffendheid vererger soos in die eerste dekade van vryheid nie. Dit moet die lewe geriefliker. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[This growth rate as such is not enough, and it is the nature of that growth that is of vital importance. We must ensure that higher growth rates are combined with greater social equality that will enable the poor and economically excluded people to acquire the means to be able to participate in the economy and build their own sources of empowerment, together with the effective protection of the natural resource base of the country.

Lastly, growth must not worsen spatial apartheid and inefficiency, as happened in the first decade of freedom. It should make life more comfortable.]

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?

Mr F ADAMS: No, no, I think you can sit down, Mr Watson. You’re wasting my time. [Laughter.]

Dit moet die lewe geriefliker en meer bekostigbaar maak vir die meerderheid van ons mense, wat desperaat is om toegang te verkry tot ekonomiese, maatskaplike en ekologiese geleenthede.

Op die punt van Asgisa ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It should make life more comfortable and more affordable for the majority of our people, who are desperate to gain access to economic, social and ecological opportunities.

On the issue of Asgisa ...]

Ms D ROBINSON: No, man, this is Transport!

Mnr F ADAMS: Transport is deel van Asgisa, agb Robinson. U weet, as ’n mens iets wil sê en jy sê niks ... Daar’s ’n liedjie wat lui, “You say it best when you say nothing at all.”

Ek dink dis wat die DA moet doen; liewer stilbly en niks sê nie, want die agb Watson mislei die Huis. Die agb Watson sê die Wes-Kaap het ’n volle Wes-Kaap-regeringsitting gehad waar hulle hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp goedgekeur het. Waar was u, Meneer? Was u daar in die Wes-Kaap?

Hier sit my agb kollega wat daar was. Die Wes-Kaap het openbare verhore gehou, meneer. Waar was u? U kom hier en mislei die Huis. U sê dis ’n wet wat drakonies is. Nee, Meneer. Dis ’n wet wat Suid-Afrika op die regte pad plaas. Ek wil hê u moet terugdraai. U moet terugdraai.

Die afgelope tyd is die visie van hierdie nasionale regering om ’n beter lewe vir almal te skep ernstig onder druk geplaas deur die DA-beheerde veelpartyregering van die Uniestad Kaapstad. Die uitslag van die plaaslike regeringsverkiesings het ’n ommekeer gebring in die rasseharmonie en maatskaplike eenheid wat ons graag wou bou en wat die DA besig is om te probeer vernietig in die Wes-Kaap. Die uitslae van die verkiesing en die bestaan van onstabiele koalisies het die swaar gewonne stabiliteit wat in die provinsie bewerkstellig is, begin bedreig.

Die DA loop skoon en deel bruinbrode en blikkies vis aan ons mense uit in Tafelsig om ’n verkiesing te wen. Dit is laag gedaal vir die DA! In die lig van die politieke broosheid in die Uniestad Kaapstad is ek oortuig ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Transport is part of Asgisa, hon Robinson. You know, if one wants to say something and one says nothing ... There’s a song that goes: “You say it best when you say nothing at all.”

I think that is what the DA must do: rather keep quiet and say nothing, because the hon Watson is misleading the House. The hon Watson says that the Western Cape had a full sitting of the Western Cape government where they approved this amending Bill. Where were you, sir? Were you there in the Western Cape?

My hon colleague who was there is sitting here. The Western Cape held public hearings, sir. Where were you? You come here and mislead the House. You say that it is a draconian Act. No, sir. It is an Act that places South Africa on the right course. I want you to turn back. You must turn back.

Recently the vision of this national government to create a better life for all was placed under serious pressure by the DA-controlled multi-party government of the Cape Town Unicity. The results of the local government elections brought a turnabout in the racial harmony and social unity that we would have liked to build and that the DA is trying to destroy in the Western Cape. The results of the election and the existence of unstable coalitions have started to threaten hard-won stability that has been achieved in the province.

The DA even went so far as to hand out brown bread and tinned fish to our people in Tafelsig to win an election. That is certainly sinking very low for the DA! In die light of the political fragility in the Cape Town Unicity I am convinced ...]

Mr A WATSON: On a point of order, Madam Chair: The speaker has just said that the DA went around buying votes with brown bread and tinned fish. [Laughter.] That is a lie that the speaker cannot substantiate. [Laughter.] I ask you to ask him to withdraw it. He cannot substantiate it. [Interjections.]

Mr F ADAMS: Thank you, Chairperson. Like I said, you say it best when you say nothing at all, hon Watson. The facts are that the DA mayor went and dished out bread and tinned fish to our people on an open bus on a Sunday afternoon! Get your facts straight. You come here and mislead the House about other provinces, hon Watson. Get your facts straight, hon Watson!

In die lig van die politieke broosheid in die Uniestad Kaapstad is ek oortuig en vasbeslote dat die nasionale en provinsiale regerings daadwerklike pogings aanwend om kalmte en stabiliteit te bewerkstellig en te verseker dat gefokus word op dienslewering sodat ons almal doelgerig kan werk in die rigting van die strategiese doelwitte van Asgisa vir ’n beter lewe vir almal, insluitende die Uniestad Kaapstad.

Net omdat ons in die Wes-Kaap plaaslike regerings het wat bestuur word deur koalisies en deur die DA met die voortdurende moontlikheid van verandering na gelang van die wisseling van koalisies, beteken dit nie dat die publiek benadeel mag word vanweë ondoeltreffendheid, swak dienslewering of die waagpolitiek wat die DA speel nie, agb Robertson.

Beteken dit nou dat ’n beter lewe vir almal misluk het en onuitvoerbaar is? Nee, stellig nee! Toe opperhoof Albert Luthuli die eerste keer hierdie visie in woorde gestel het, het dit gelei tot drie dekades van absolute staatsbrutaliteit. In die gees van die verstandigheid van Gramsci dat hoop langdurig van aard is, moet ons eenvoudig meer vasberade wees en harder werk om die visie van ’n beter lewe vir almal te verwesenlik.

In hierdie maand, Junie, herdenk ons die moed en opoffering wat gemaak is deur jongmense in 1976, wat die grondslag gelê het vir die eenheid van die toekoms. Net so sal ons die optog 50 jaar gelede van vroue na die Uniegebou herdenk, waarmee hulle hul ontevredenheid met apartheid as vroue te kenne gegee het terwyl hulle ten volle aangedring het op hulle onvervreembare reg om gelyke burgers te wees wat volledig by ons samelewing ingeskakel is. Agb Chen, jy moet mooi luister! In albei hierdie vierings moet ons hard werk om konkrete dienste te lewer aan jongmense en vroue.

Die ANC steun die wysingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In the light of the political fragility in the Cape Town Unicity I am convinced and adamant that the national and provincial governments are making a real effort to bring about calm and stability and to ensure that the focus is on service delivery so that all of us can work in a purposeful way in the direction of the strategic goals of Asgisa for a better life for all, including the Cape Town Unicity.

Just because we have local governments in the Western Cape that are managed by coalitions and by the DA, with the continuous possibility of change according to changes in coalitions, this does not mean that the public may be disadvantaged by inefficiency, poor service delivery or the risky politics engaged in the DA, hon Robertson.

Does this mean that a better life for all has failed and is impracticable? No, probably not. When Chief Albert Luthuli put this vision into words for the first time it resulted in three decades of absolute state brutality. In the spirit of the wisdom of Gramsci that hope lasts a long time, we must simply be more determined and work harder to realise the vision of a better life for all.

In this month of June we commemorate the courage and sacrifices of the youth in 1976, which laid the foundation for the unity of the future. Similarly, we will commemorate the march by women to the Union Buildings 50 years ago, through which they as women made known their dissatisfaction with apartheid, while they absolutely insisted on their inalienable right to be equal citizens who are fully integrated into our society. Hon Chen, you must listen carefully! In both these celebrations we have to work hard to deliver concrete services to the youth and women.

The ANC supports the amending Bill. I thank you. [Interjections.][Applause.]]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you. Chairperson and hon members for such a very lively and vibrant debate on this issue. [Laughter.] Firstly, to agree with the hon Mzizi, he was speaking in isiZulu, but basically, he was making an analogy between this Bill and a baby and that it needs to grow. So, what I interpreted from what he said was that this Bill is a framework and as we move towards its implementation as practice dictates, we will be able to amend as we go along. That is the spirit with which I want to close this debate on this Bill.

Also I agree with the hon Adams as well for who quoted very extensively on Gramsci. I just want to mention, not Gramsci, but about Karl Marx, who was one of the greatest philosophers of olden times, who said that philosophers have interpreted the world in different ways, but the most important thing, however, is to change it.

The debate has been subjected to various interpretations, but I believe that the most important thing is: What does the Bill seek to achieve? The Bill seeks to transform public transport in South Africa. The Bill seeks to ensure that all the transformation initiatives that have been taking place at a political level to deal with the issues of taxi recapitalisation find expression in legislation like this.

So, it is in that spirit that I would like to urge members to look at this Bill. It is not going to resolve all the problems that confront public transport, but what it is going to do is to provide the impetus to accelerate the transformation, in particular, of the taxi industry in South Africa.

We have reached many agreements with many stakeholders in South Africa. In order for us to implement those measures, we need this framework, in terms of this legislation, so that we can know what the role of the Minister, various MECs responsible for transport, local authorities, and operating licensing boards and of Registrars will be. That is simply what this Bill requires us to do.

As we all know, we cannot always put everything that plagues public transport in South Africa into a simply Bill like this. It is not practically possible. That is why, after having the framework of this National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, to ensure that we are able to accelerate the recapitalisation of the taxi industry in South Africa, we will, by way of regulations, be able to put into effect some of the comments that have been made by hon members.

So, I want to veer away from amending the already amended National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill. We believe that the amendments in the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, as they stand in front of you, are adequate for us to deal with all the issues that are at stake at the present moment. Other specific issues can be dealt with through regulations.

The hon Watson said these amendments are dangerous. They are not dangerous, hon Watson. If you are involved in transforming the world, like Karl Marx said, you don’t have to interpret it, as hon Mzizi would say that umkhonto wegwala uphelela edwaleni [the spear of a coward ends up on the rock]. We can no longer continue sharpening the spear. You must make use of it.

That’s precisely what we do. The evidence will always dictate to us what we need to do at a particular point in time. If 74% of taxi users are dissatisfied with the manner in which the industry is being run in South Africa, with unroadworthy vehicles and the lives and safety of passengers being at stake, we need to do something to correct it. That’s precisely what these corrective measures are aimed at dealing with.

Hon Mzizi, on the issue of tourism, I indicated in my Budget Vote in Parliament two weeks ago, that we have several engagements with the tourism people, and negotiations about a variety of matters, some of which have been raised here. Those concerns, some of which have been noted by the department, will be incorporated as we implement them. If required, we will be able to ensure that the outcomes of those negotiations also find expression in legislation. So, there is no danger, as far as I am concerned, that this amending Bill is going to negatively affect tourism. On the contrary, it is going to promote it so that it moves to a higher level.

As regards intergrated transport plans, as we said, the amendments are intended to simplify the planning process regime to enable even the smallest of municipalities to be able to develop their own integrated transport plans. All those issues have been taken into account and, in fact, there are other initiatives, as the special delegate from Gauteng has highlighted. Gauteng is already thinking of developing a single transport authority. Ethekwini already has one. In the Western Cape, Cape Town is trying to have one. All these measures are going to assist in our further endeavour to transform public transport in our country.

Hon delegate from the Western Cape, many of the issues that you have raised have been discussed in the select committee of the NCOP and also in the National Assembly, and have been taken into consideration. I also want to add, as I have said, that some of the issues that do not, on the face of it, appear in the Bill as amended, can be incorporated in terms of regulations that can be promulgated from time to time by the executive authority.

To the Eastern Cape delegate, Moerane-Mamase, as regards the issue of the transport budget, as we all know, it is actually increasing in real terms – by about 18% over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period. We believe that we are going to be seeing a continuing rise in the transport budget because of the challenges that we face in South Africa, especially as regards roads. I indicated last time we dealt with the issue of the budget in the NCOP, that on roads alone, in the next three years, the three spheres of government are going to be spending about R63 billion. I believe that even though that money will not solve all the problems that confront us in South Africa, it will go a long way towards ensuring that we improve the situation.

All spheres of government are going to be working very closely in terms of ensuring that the amendments in this National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill are implemented. I want to assure you that two days ago I worked very closely with the MECs of transport in Johannesburg. We met to look further at all these issues pertaining to taxi recapitalisation. There is very good progress in this particular regard.

A few weeks ago, I met with the leadership of the South African National Taxi Council - Santaco - from 8 in the evening until 1:30 in the morning, dealing with the challenges of conversion, which is proceeding very well. As far as we are concerned, we have moved to more than 85% of conversions. The critical thing now is to ensure that this Bill, as amended, is passed by the NCOP, so that we are able to go out there, not to interpret public transport further, but at least to try and change it for the better, so that public transport is affordable, safe and user-friendly. We must also build appropriate facilities so that our people can be transported in a proper manner. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): I shall now put the question, and the question is that the Bill, as amended, be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegate heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. None. Hon members, we shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Free State?

Mr T S RALANE: Ya seketela. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Gauteng?

Mr R RADEBE: Votes in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Abstains.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo votes in favour, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Northern Cape supports.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mrs M N Oliphant): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West is in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Western Cape?

Ms N C PHENDUKA: Siyavumelana. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon members, eight provinces voted in favour and one abstained. I therefore declare the Bill, as amended, agreed to. [Applause.]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and the department for coming and addressing the House on such important legislation and I believe that the provinces, even the one that abstained, will be able to follow up on and implement that legislation. Thank you very much.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON MUTUAL ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANCE IN CUSTOMS MATTERS

Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, we propose the adoption of the Report. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): I shall now put the question. The question is that the Report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration? None. We shall now proceed to voting in alphabetical order. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Ra e thega. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Free State?

Mr T S RALANE: Supports.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Gauteng?

Mr R RADEBE: In favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES (Mrs M N Oliphant): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: A sekethela. [Supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES (Mrs M N Oliphant): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Siyaxasha. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN : Noord-Kaap steun. [Northen Cape supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): North West?

Mr Z C KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Western Cape?

Ms N C PHENDUKA: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 16:50.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Translations of Bills submitted

(1) The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Herroeping van die Swart Administrasie Wet en Wysiging van Sekere Wette [W 11 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75)

This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

2. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 14 June 2006:

Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2006] (National Assembly– sec 77)

3. Bill referred to Mediation Committee

(1) Bill, as amended by National Assembly, and rejected by National Council of Provinces on 13 June 2006, referred to Mediation Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(2)(b):

Older Persons Bill [B 68D – 2003] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76).

National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

(1) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B 11B – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75)

The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

Corporate Laws Amendment Bill [B 6B – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75)

The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government

Draft Local Government: Municipal Performance Regulations for Section 57 Employees, 2006 in terms of section 120(7) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 77), dated 14 June 2006:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

Audio

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Documents

NCOP: Unrevised hansard

Bills

B2-2006 - Appropriation Bill

Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 14 Jun 2006

Summary

Minutes

ILLNESS OF MRS CHEN’S HUSBAND

MEDIATION COMMITTEE FOR OLDER PERSONS BILL

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

Audio

Documents

Bills

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