Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 22 Jun 2011


No summary available.










The House met at 15:13.


The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.







Cluster 2




The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, are you responding?




Steps taken to prevent social grant fraud and to take corrective action where necessary

61.      Mrs S P Kopane (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:


(1)          With reference to her reply to question 152 on 27 May  2011, what (a) strategy, (b) policy and (c) programmes currently exist to prevent social grant fraud from occurring in the absence of the Office of the Inspectorate for Social Assistance, which is to be established in the course of the 2013-14 financial year;


(2)  which department or entity within her Ministry is currently conducting the interrogation of data on the social pension system (Socpen) to identify suspicious grants, to check and confirm the eligibility of beneficiaries and take corrective steps where cases of alleged fraud are uncovered;


(3)        whether she has taken any steps to deal with the general information technology utilised by her department in light of the report by the Auditor-General for the year ending 31 March 2010, which stated that the social pension system was not designed to maintain the integrity of the information system and security of data; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?                                    NO1770E


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Lungu elihloniphekile, Nk S P Kopane ... [hon member Mrs S P Kopane ... the South African Social Security Agency, Sassa, developed and is implementing the integrity model as a strategy to detect and prevent fraud in the grants administration system. The strategy focuses on compliance, enforcement, confirmation of eligibility to document review and the life verification of social grant beneficiaries for existence. The model further requires Sassa to link fraudulent beneficiaries to the staff members who captured and approved these grants on the system. The integrity policy was developed and is being consulted with organised labour. The policy will allow Sassa to conduct a lifestyle audit on officials suspected to be living beyond their means. Furthermore, the policy will enable Sassa to take corrective action in cases of omission or commission caused deliberately or through negligence.


Sassa is also implementing an ethics programme, which primarily focuses on ethics audits. The audits include reconciliation between financial disclosure, remuneration for work and declaration of gifts. These will assist Sassa in determining conflicts of interest relating to its staff members, which could undermine its integrity.


The compliance and fraud management function within Sassa is responsible for fraud detection, investigation of fraudulent grants, in co-operation with law enforcement agencies, and verification of grants for validity and existence of beneficiaries. Sassa is gradually increasing its capacity to effectively reform the above-mentioned functions. In addition, Sassa has also enhanced its fraud prevention measures through the implementation of Industrial Control Technology, ICT, controls to manage access to its systems.


With regard to the second question, the Compliance and Fraud Management Department is responsible for data interrogation to detect fraudulent grants. Sassa is implementing the benefits verification process to verify the validity of grants, eligibility of beneficiaries and physical verification of the existence of beneficiaries. The identified cases are subsequently terminated from the system and referred to law enforcement agencies for criminal investigation, prosecution and the recovery of fraudulently paid grants.


With regard to the third question, the answer is yes. The following steps have been taken to ensure that the social pension system, Socpen, and data integrity are maintained. Access to the system is controlled by the resource access control facility, which ensures that only registered users have access to the system and data under controlled circumstances. Two user-account management policies have been approved and implemented and a system model manages and controls access to the application. A batch interface with the population register of the Department of Home Affairs is run before the grant payments are extracted to prevent illegal beneficiaries. Strict monitoring of access to the Socpen system after business hours and over weekends is performed. Exception reports on anomalies on the Socpen system are produced for investigation. Lastly, the batch interface with the government payroll system has been implemented to ensure that government officials do not benefit from social assistance.


Furthermore, Sassa will be implementing a biometric identification project during the 2011-12 financial year to further improve Socpen system information access and control. Thank you.


Mrs S P KOPANE: Speaker, I thank the hon Deputy Minister. Everything she said was good, but in terms of implementation, we know these things are not helping us. Tens of millions of rands have been lost through fraud and corruption by Sassa.


Hon Deputy Minister, would you agree that if the inspectorate was established in accordance with the law, that is the Social Assistance Act of 2004, fraud, corruption, service mismanagement and criminal activity within the agency could have been avoided? If the answer is yes, why was the inspectorate never established as a priority? If no, what other mechanisms are in place besides the ones you have already mentioned here? I ask this because we know they are in place, but Sassa’s officials have no capacity. Thank you.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, Lungu elihloniphekile ... Hon member ... we believe that the establishment of the Corporate Compliance and Integrity Unit, on the one hand, will enhance compliance with policies and processes and prevent the processing of falsified grants, thus eliminating the possibility of fraudulent beneficiaries from entering the system. On the other hand, we welcome and believe that under the new CEO, Virginia Petersen, there will be a culture of honesty and integrity within Sassa. We believe things will change. Thank you.


Mrs Y R BOTHA: Speaker, I am the Botha on your right. Firstly, with regard to the implementation of the integrity model, I want to ask how many social grants were verified through the life verification process that the Deputy Minister mentioned earlier? Secondly, how many of the verified grants were found to be fraudulent? Thirdly, how did these fraudulent grants find their way into the grant system? Lastly, how is Sassa going to deal with this challenge?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, it is a very difficult question, but I will try to answer it. I think a total number of 132 603 social grants had been verified through the Life Verification Process as at the end of March 2011. A total of 7 133 were found to be fraudulent and cancelled. Some members of the public obtained false birth certificates and utilised them to apply for fraudulent grants to Sassa.


Sassa is working with the Department of Home Affairs and law enforcement agencies to identify and cancel all false identity documents and ensure that perpetrators are brought to book. Sassa is also busy linking these fraudulent grants to the officials who captured them on the Socpen system and will be taking corrective action against the implicated officials. If necessary, people will be arrested. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, are the majority of these strategies to prevent social grant fraud computer-based? If so, how is the Minister addressing the challenge of sufficient technically skilled people to manage and maintain the necessary technology to implement the programmes? What is the department doing generally to ensure the necessary technical skills to implement anti-fraud measures? Do the anti-fraud measures adequately cover fraud within Sassa, commercial banks and the public, and what are the details?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, Ilunga elihloniphekile uDudley... Hon member Dudley... firstly, the purpose of the Corporate Compliance and Integrity Unit will be to enforce compliance with legislation, regulations and policy, as well as validated benefits, with a view to enhancing transparency and accountability and accelerating service delivery. Secondly, we subscribe to the fundamental concept that fraud prevention is the most effective and efficient means to minimise fraud and abuse, and to foster a culture of doing the right thing.


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I don’t mean to put the Deputy Minister in a difficult situation, but I don’t quite understand how the Deputy Minister has been able to respond to the question by reading from the text, while that question was raised from the floor right now? In other words, what I am saying to you is: I don’t believe for a minute that the Deputy Minister is actually answering the question that was put to her. It is right off the subject.


The SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Continue, Deputy Minister.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I am not reading from a text. This is my own handwriting.


The SPEAKER: Hon members, please reduce your volume or, preferably, speak with no voice, so that we can hear the speaker. [Laughter.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: We are going to foster a culture of doing the right thing. We are also going to recruit members from outside, especially when it comes to capacity. A value set will provide direction to employees of Sassa with regard to expected ethical behaviour. A number of policies and guidelines also exist to guide employees further on what is acceptable or unacceptable in a work environment. Thank you. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. There are no further requests for supplementary questions on my screen. We will therefore move on to Question 67. [Interjections.] Where is the supplementary question? There is one last supplementary question.


Mrs S P KOPANE: Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, my question was not answered. My question is: Why was the inspectorate never established in accordance with the law?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I think the hon member should indicate the law she is referring to, because according to my knowledge it was established according to the law.


Steps taken to ensure curriculum parity in special schools and to provide training to deal with visually impaired and hearing-impaired learners


67.      Ms N Gina (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:


(1)          What steps has she taken to ensure that the curriculum and learner support material of special schools are in line with the curriculum and assessment policy statement for learners in the mainstream;


(2)        whether any steps have been taken to provide training to managers and educators at all schools to deal with visually impaired and hearing-impaired learners; if not, why not; if so, what steps?                                                           NO1776E


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Speaker ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Blade, the hon member Trollip wants to listen to the response and you are really interrupting. Please, give the hon member a chance to listen. [Laughter.] Take your seat, hon member.


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker ... [Laughter.]


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The question relates to the curriculum for learners with special needs. The answer is that an inclusive education reference group was indeed established in 2010 to develop an Inclusive Education Policy Statement on the curriculum and assessment for incorporation into the Curriculum and Assessment Policy Statements. A task team was also established for the adaptation of workbooks for Grades 1 to 6 into Braille and SA Sign Language, as well as for the alternative and augmentative communication. All workbooks for the numeracy and literacy grades have been adapted for Braille.


The second question relates to training for managers and educators. The reply is that 200 provincial, district and school management teams and officials from 66 schools for visual and hearing impairment were trained in March 2011 in specialised skills in these areas, including how to manage the curriculum. The training programme is being adapted to ensure that there is training of 700 more teachers for the visually impaired and 1 000 teachers for the deaf, which starts in 2011 on a progressive basis.


Ms N GINA: Speaker, ngibonge kakhulu Ngqongqoshe ngempendulo yakho ... [Thank you very much for your response, Minister.] ... but, hon Minister, when we talk of inclusive education we cater for all those who have disabilities of whatever sort. Does the department have any infrastructure arrangements or plans to cater for other physically disabled children who are expected to go to school? We find so many children who cannot even access education because they are in wheelchairs and cannot even get to a classroom. What is the department planning in that regard?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: In 2010 we had to ask the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, to help us develop norms and standards for accessibility into schools. So we have a framework on norms and standards. We have converted a number of schools to make them more accessible for children with physical disabilities, but up to now we have not rolled it out to all the schools. I can supply you with the number of schools that have been made “full” schools. We have a framework in which all new schools must comply with the norms and standards. This includes physical accessibility, but we have not been able to convert all schools into fully functional schools. There is work under way to make sure that we can improve access.


Dr W G JAMES: Hon Minister, Pioneer Printers in Worcester is a national asset. It is the only national facility in the country that provides for Braille, audio and giant-letters material in technical subjects such as mathematics, science, music and computer language. The annual budget of this national asset is R7,3 million, of which the Western Cape education department funds R2,5 million. They raise the balance of those funds and that places Pioneer in a precarious situation, year in and year out. Are you willing, Minister, to consider granting Pioneer Printers, since it is a national facility and the only one in this area, the full, sustainable sum of R7,3 million per annum by way of a ring-fenced special grant to the Western Cape education department to ensure that the nation’s blind are educationally empowered?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed, the MEC for Education in the Western Cape has spoken to me about this facility of which I was not aware. I fully appreciate its importance and have communicated with the department to see how we can assist it to make sure that we can protect and sustain it as the only facility of its kind in the county. What I need to do is to check what progress they have made in their engagements with the facility.


What I also did request, as they are the only facility, is that as government we must make sure that we give them business and that there is no delay in paying them, as that affects their cash flow. That was another difficulty – government was delaying payment to them. So we had to unblock that and make sure that the facility is indeed protected and - as you correctly say – seen as valuable. What I can do is follow up and check how the discussions with that facility are standing, but I have taken up the matter of engaging with that facility with the department. [Applause.]


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I think the Minister’s response focused on the second part of this question at the expense of the first part, which talks about the alignment of the assessment policy for special schools with the assessment policy of mainstream schools. My question is: What aspects of this assessment policy do you think have to be aligned?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think there might be some communication breakdown between what I am reading and what member Mpontshane is reading. The first question is asking me about materials for children with learning disabilities and the second one about training. That is what I have responded to and that is what is contained in my question. I am not sure which question the member is referring to.


The SPEAKER: Hon member, do you want to clarify what question you are referring to, or which statement are you referring to?


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Speaker, I hope I am reading the same question as the Minister. The last part says: “What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that the curriculum and learner support material of special schools are in line with the curriculum and assessment policy statement for learners in the mainstream?” That is the question. My question was: What aspects of this assessment policy does the Minister think have to be aligned?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The answer is “fully aligned”. Everything we have done for mainstream learners has also been done for learners with special needs. So, where we have to convert into Braille, the curriculum and assessments have been fully Brailled. Where we have to have materials for children with hearing impairments, the curriculum is fully aligned to make sure that indeed there is duplication. Nothing that was done for mainstream learners was not done for children with special needs. What I was responding to related to how many people we have trained in the different areas, but we must be fully aligned.


The SPEAKER: The last question to hon Minister Motshekga will be asked by the hon Dr Motshekga. I have you on my list. Do you want to withdraw? Do you prefer to raise it at home? [Laughter.]




The SPEAKER: It’s okay. You can ask it anyway.


Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, hon Minister, what has the department done to seek and encourage the involvement of parents and the community in decisions taken to include special school learners in mainstream schools?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Again, in terms of the process that we followed when we were doing the curriculum and assessment policy process, we followed the necessary steps in terms of public participation and engaging with the public - just the legal part thereof. I received, for instance, the last report from the curriculum statement in June and, before we even gazette it, I have a series of appointments with different key stakeholders to make sure that we take them through the documents.


What we have done was really a technical exercise in terms of what the law prescribes to us and in terms of public comment and consultation with key stakeholders. I would not have had the specific task to focus on either this kind of parent or that kind of learner. We are continuing to talk to different groups of people who have an interest in making sure that we are indeed on par and that we have a common understanding. If there are problems that are brought forward to us, we are able to address them.


Progress made in implementing sport in schools for the enrichment of school programmes


68.        Ms N Gina (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:


What progress has been made with regard to the implementation of sport in schools as part of a collaborative programme with other organisations, including the Department of Sport and Recreation, for the enrichment of school programmes?    NO1777E


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Speaker, a draft integrated sports plan has been developed collaboratively with Sports and Recreation South Africa, clarifying the roles and functions of each department. We even held a final meeting this morning which also spelled out the process that both departments are going to follow.


Within the Department of Basic Education, the draft has been approved by the Council on Education in Management, CEM. It is due to be finalised by agreement between the two of us. As I have said, this morning we had a meeting with the Minister and we have agreed on the way forward. Currently, school sports leagues have commenced at district level with four identified priority sporting codes, namely, football, rugby, netball and cricket. Schools are participating in leagues, based on a guideline document that was developed and distributed to all provinces.


In addition, the training of educators as part of the Curriculum Assessment and Policy Statement, Caps, is planned. Currently, subject advisors have also been trained on Caps, which will include training around sports-related matters. According to Caps, two hours per week in the school timetable have been allocated to physical education.


Ms N GINA: Hon Minister, thank you for the good initiatives that you have taken with regard to school sport, together with the Department of Sport and Recreation. However, looking at the codes, even the ones you have just mentioned now, such as rugby and cricket, which have started in some of the districts, when you look at the disadvantaged learners from the deep rural areas you will find that we do not have those sporting facilities. What is the department doing to ensure that even learners from the deep rural areas are exposed to such codes? What is the department doing with regard to facilities to ensure that they are exposed to such codes?


Looking at Caps and the two hours allocated to physical education, and knowing the history of educators who do not use these two hours solely for that purpose, what measures does the department have in place to ensure that those hours are being used effectively for school sport?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Speaker, I have to say that the Department of Sport and Recreation has played a greatly beneficial role in the process of making sure that we reawaken school sport. It’s been very constructive. The Minister of Sport and Recreation had said to his people that sport is full-time, so they have really been dedicating their attention to sport. For us, as the Department of Education, sport is part-time. Sometimes we will not have the time and the ability to run with school sport. They have added impetus to the process. I can assure you that, with their collaboration, we should see good things in the future.


With regard to infrastructure, our new norms and standards for school infrastructure incorporate sport facilities as an essential part of infrastructure. We are talking with the Minister and also with local government. Again, the Department of Sport and Recreation is leading that process because they are on it full-time. They are working with local government to see how we can collaborate as the three spheres of government to roll out sport infrastructure in areas where it is absent. Part of the plan is a roll-out in July and it will include all matters relating to infrastructure, training and leagues. So, the matter the hon member has raised is part of the plan that we are working on with the Minister of Sport and Recreation. The razzmatazz will get into the schools.


Mr J J MCGLUWA: Speaker, Minister, education is by nature a labour-intensive enterprise. As far as development of rural schools is concerned, we know that this country has a history of MIG funds not being fully utilised. MIG funds can be the solution to the problem that we have at hand. Does the Minister have any plans to ensure that MIG funds will be used to assist poor schools? Of all the MIG funds that have been sent back, it was actually the poor schools that suffered the most when it comes to school sport.


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Part of the answer given to the hon Gina covers exactly that. The Minister of Sport and Recreation is the one who is leading the engagement with local authorities on the use of MIG funds for infrastructure. So, we agree with you that it could be one of the sources of funding for sport, not only for schools but for sport in communities. The Minister of Sport and Recreation is leading that process and has already engaged with the different local authorities to ensure access to those funds.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Speaker, hon Minister, in 2005 a collaboration framework was signed between the Department of Education and the Department of Sport and Recreation. Six years later, sporting facilities in our schools, especially in rural and township schools, are still at zero level. When one looks at the period since this framework was signed between the two departments, what have the impediments been? Are they financial, or what?


Linked to that Minister, we see, especially in the former model C schools, that parents are involved in the sporting activities of their children. What programmes does the department have to encourage school governing bodies to get involved in the sporting activities of their children? Thank you.


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: In terms of what happened to the agreement six years ago, as I said, this morning at 7 o’clock I met with the Minister of Sport and Recreation. We have reactivated the agreement and we have a clear timeframe. We are going to relaunch the process of collaboration between the two departments. That is my point: we have reactivated the process to ensure that, with the assistance of the Department of Sport and Recreation, we can indeed reawaken school sport in all our schools. We had agreed this morning that we will launch the new initiatives in July. Work is under way, training is happening and all the other related matters are being looked at to make sure that that agreement is brought back to life.


Regarding model C schools, yes, it is happening there. I had a child in Parktown Boys’ High and I paid R20 000 a year. Part of that money - the bulk of it - went into sport and sporting facilities. No-fee schools are dependent on the state in order to have independent sporting activities like those of your former model C schools, because there are no resources. I think we are comparing things which are not comparable. The others are not paying, so they are dependent on the state. The others are paying and, as parents, they are running the process with the money that they are paying.


Bengithi nje angazi mhlawumbe angiwutholanga kahle umbuzo. [I was just saying that maybe I did not understand the question correctly.]


Mr D C SMILES: Sport is not happening in the majority of our schools. That is a known fact. Yet school sport forms an integral part of curriculum delivery in our schools. Teachers are the key to curriculum delivery. In order for the department to instil a culture of active participation in school sport by learners as well as by teachers, does the Minister plan to give incentives to teachers who deliver the sport system at schools and at any level. If so, what is the department’s budget for school sport this year?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Again, we fully agree with member Smiles that sport is very important in education. We can talk about all the benefits that it brings in terms of discipline and all sorts of positive things that it brings. But in terms of incentives, we have not worked out incentives for teachers. What normally happens with teachers who also participate in sport is that their number of lessons is reduced so that they will have more hours to participate in sport. We do not give them monetary incentives. We have not worked out a framework on monetary incentives for sport teachers.

In terms of the budget for school sport, it is part of the norms and standards that schools have to use some of the budget allocated to them for sport. Again, there is no special allocation outside your normal norms and standards.


Intention regarding introduction of legislation to penalise parents or guardians whose children do not attend school


  1. Dr W G James (DA) asked the Minister of Basic Education:


Whether she intends introducing legislation that has a schedule of penalties for parents or guardians who do not ensure that their children attend school; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?                                                                             NO1759E


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The question raised was around legislation with regard to parents who do not send their kids to school. The reply is that I do not intend to introduce legislation on this matter as the existing provisions of the South African Schools Act of 1996 already make provision for penalties to be imposed on a parent who fails to ensure that a learner who is subject to compulsory school attendance does, in fact, attend school.


This matter is also governed in terms of Chapter 2 of the South African Schools Act, which provides that subject to this Act and any other applicable law, any parent who, without just cause and after receiving a written notice from the head of department, fails to comply with subsection 1, is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding six months.


Any other person who, without just cause, prevents a learner who is subject to compulsory attendance from attending a school, is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine or to imprisonment for a period again not exceeding six months.


Therefore, I believe that the legislation contains sufficient provisions to cater for this matter and I won’t have to introduce new laws. There are laws in place to deal with this matter.


Dr W G JAMES: Thank you very much for your answer, hon Minister. The reason I asked the question is that, as you know, about 65% of our children do not come from fully constituted, functional families. That means not enough parental pressure is put on children to attend school and parents do not have the care and the necessary devotion to stand behind children in order to get them to attend. So, in fact, the legislation we currently have is ineffective, and unenforceable and is not being enforced at a provincial level. If one drives around in the Eastern Cape, one often sees the kids walking around on the streets and not attending school. The nation’s kids are not at school and existing measures are not effective.

My supplementary question to you is whether you are willing to consider investing in a programme that was pioneered in Brazil and is called Bolsa Familia, where the payment of social grants is dependent on whether the parents with fidelity send their children to school every day, as required. The programme requires of them to attend the clinic to get the necessary immunisation and monthly check-ups for their health. Are you willing to consider such a measure, which would make the payment of social grants dependent on whether those things happen?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think the hon James will agree with me that in instances where children come from very difficult environments or circumstances, the whole question of prison is out of the question. What they need is support. As you have indicated, perhaps they need incentives that would really force them to go to school.


Fortunately, I do not pay grants. Therefore, I would not be the one expected to make such laws. However, anything that would support and assist us in ensuring that kids do indeed go to school would be welcomed fully. Whether this should be linked to grants is not really my territory, but any incentive that would help make sure that our kids are indeed going to school would be welcomed fully.


For your information, we are even looking at setting up psycho-social services within the department to make sure that we could employ our own social workers. We will be making the bid to Treasury to support kids who come from difficult circumstances. This is as far as we can go. As I said, I cannot make laws for Social Services.


Where I come from is that I think it is more important to find ways of supporting them. As you said, we should find different incentives to encourage them to go to school if they come from very difficult circumstances.


Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Minister, as you rightly said, there is legislation dealing with the issue. My question is: Why is this legislation not being implemented? There might be difficulties in implementing the legislation, but why is it on the books if it is not going to be implemented? Is it just ghost legislation?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think the member will agree with me that when there is a law, there is a process involved. The law is there for all of us. As the public, we should complain to the courts of the country when we see a child not going to school. We can report that. It is for all of us to do so.


You know very well that we are doing lots of things in order to encourage and support kids to come to school. Sometimes teachers even go to the extent of picking them up at their homes. We would rather go for a soft, caring approach than one of policing.


We know that some kids come from extremely difficult environments. Others come from parentless homes. You do not send them to prison because they have no parent to bring them up. We look at different ways of ensuring that at the end of the day, they do go to school. Preferably, in an environment like school, where there would be education authorities, we would rather use soft methods which would not break the trust between us and our learners. If we send them to prison and they come back, there will be no relationship between us. We have a certain responsibility.


There is no such thing as the law not being implementable. Even as a member of the public, you can easily complain. Custodians of the law should deal with it. We are not the courts of the country. These matters need to be taken to the courts of the country through the correct process. You raise a complaint and there is someone who has jurisdiction over who gets imprisoned or not. I do not run courts and cannot be responsible for the implementation of a law.


The SPEAKER: Hon Mpontshane, I have kept your favourite spot, number three, for you. The last question will go to the hon Mushwana.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you, hon Speaker.


Yinkinga le esikhuluma ngayo Ngqongqoshe, okungukuyeka kwezingane esikoleni. [We are talking about the serious problem of school drop-outs, Minister.]


There are many factors responsible for such a phenomenon.


Ngisakhula mina wawungazitholi izinto ezinhle uma ungayanga esikoleni; ukuthenga umabonakude, kanye nokuba nendlu, kodwa manje noma ngubani ongayanga esikoleni uqhamuka esenezinto ezinhle.


Ziningi izingane eziqede ibanga leshumi ezihlezi emakhaya. Uma ingane ithi iqhubeka nesikole, bese ibuye izibuze ukuthi ngizoyelani esikoleni ngoba naba abaningi abaqeda esikoleni behlezi emakhaya. Umuntu oyeka isikole - njengalaba abaphila ngamathenda - athole izigidi zemali engafundile; bese ingane iyazibuza ukuthi izofundelani, ingani naba abangafundile banezidigi zezimali. Ngicela ukubuza-ke Ngqongqoshe ngoba ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[When I grew up we did not have fancy things - televisions and houses - if you did not go to school, but now even people who did not go school have such fancy things.


There are many children who matriculated who are at home. When children think of completing their schooling, they ask themselves why they have to go to school because there are many who matriculated who are at home. A person who drops out of school - like the ones who survive on tenders - get millions of rands even when they are not educated; then a child would ask: Why do I have to be educated, while there are uneducated ones with millions of rands? If I may ask the Minister because ...]


... this is essentially a social problem. Don’t you think that now is the time for different departments, those other than Education, to come together, look at this problem closely and come up with programmes to serve as incentives for these youngsters?


UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO: UBab’ uMpontshane uhlanganisa izinto ezingahlangani, ukuthi abanye bathola imali yamathenda akuhlangani nami lokho nokuthi abanye baqeda ibanga leshumi nalapho nami angingeni lapho.


Ngicabanga ukuthi into ehlangana nami yile yokuthi kufanele lento siyilungise sonke njengeMinyango kahulumeni. Kungakho sisebenzisana noMnyango wezokuThuthukiswa koMphakathi, ukubonisa ukuthi singabambisana ngokulungisa lokhu. Kunjengoba usho nje lena akuyona nje inkinga yokuganga, yinkinga ebangelwa yisimo laba bantu abaqhamuka kuso.


Njengoba usho futhi ukuthi nendawo abaqhamuka kuyo, kanye nezimo ezisemphakathini. Izinto ezisemphakathini yizo ezibaqeda amandla, azibuze ukuthi usayelani esikoleni ngoba naba osibanibani bathole o-A kodwa bahlezi no-A babo lapha elokishini, kuyafana ukuthi uphase kahle noma qha.


Siyavumelana, yingakho ngisho ukuthi angazi ukuthi ungibuzani ngoba siyavumelana. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Mpontshane is incorporating two different issues. The fact that some get tenders and others complete their matric does not concern me.


I think what concerns me is the fact that we have to rectify this as government departments. That is why we are working with the Department of Social Development, showing that we can work together in correcting this. You are right in saying that this is not a minor problem; it is a problem caused by their background.


Where they come from social circumstances have affected them, as you said. The things that happen in their communities make them feel demoralised; they ask themselves why they are still going to school because others got As but they stay with their As in the locations, so getting good results is the same as failing.


We agree, and that is why I am saying I do not know why you are asking me because we are on the same page.]


Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Minister, we applaud the notion of free and compulsory education as law, but instead of encouraging a police state, like the opposition is suggesting, have the Minister and the Department of Basic Education talked to other departments, such as Social Development, in order to develop programmes that will instil a culture of learning among defaulters and where attendance is a challenge?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed, we are in agreement that in the context and environment in which we are working, instead of having a harsh approach of policing and harassing, you would rather have a gentle, caring approach, because most of the problems are social ones. We have to deal with them in a constructive way which will keep alive the trust between you and the learners. This will mean that even if they drop out, they would feel comfortable enough to come back to school again. We have a very caring and constructive approach. That is what the hon Mpontshane said. This requires an integrated approach between us and Social Development.


Community members and adults also have a responsibility towards children, because it takes a village to bring up a child. We as adults and the whole village should play the roles that we are able to, encouraging and supporting the kids and making sure that they go to school. Policing is the last resort, particularly if the life of a child seems to be in danger. This is where you would bring in policing, with the aim of protecting children and not harming them even further.


Reasons for withdrawal of support for 2020 Olympic Games bid


43.        Mr G P D Mackenzie (Cope) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:


What were the reasons that led to his department withdrawing its support for a South African city to bid for the 2020 Olympic Games?                                                                                                           NO1751E


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Speaker, on 26 May 2011 we recommended to Cabinet that they consider endorsing the intention by the SA Sports Confederation Olympic Committee to bid to host the 2020 Olympic Games. Cabinet decided not to endorse the intention by South Africa to bid for the 2020 Summer Olympic Games.


Cabinet’s rationale is that the cost implications are too high and the country should focus its attention on consolidating the gains made from the 2010 Fifa World Cup. Cabinet also decided that at this moment in time the resources of the country will be better spent on the delivery of basic services to all South Africans.


Mr G P D MACKENZIE: Although we are extremely sensitive to the needs of the poor and service delivery in this country, were the following items or reasons or rationale ever explored at Cabinet level: first, was there a budget done on the cost of hosting the 2020 Summer Olympic Games? Was it made known to Cabinet that Moses Mabhida Stadium, for example, was designed to seat 87 000 people and has a track fit to host field and track events, as well as opening and closing ceremonies? Of course, that was built at great expense to the country. Further, was it made known to Cabinet that the private sector was prepared to partner government in many of these initiatives, for example, in an equestrian centre and a rowing centre that would be world class? Was it taken into account that there are cities around the country that are capable of hosting numerous events, mainly because of our natural facilities and resources, but also because of the expense from the World Cup?


Finally, was the Ministry for Tourism consulted? I think that there are about 109 membership countries, which would have meant that the tourist base visiting the country in 2020 would potentially have been far larger than the tourist base of the Fifa World Cup.


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Firstly, with regard to the budgeting issues raised, I think there was no detailed plan that was considered. Overall the spirit of the resolution of Cabinet was that it is important for us to focus on consolidating the gains from the 2010 Fifa World Cup. It was not conclusive in the presentation that Moses Mabhida was the city that would have won because it was not only Moses Mabhida that would have been considered. There were also Johannesburg and Port Elizabeth. The short-listing process was actually led by the South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc. There was no conclusion that Moses Mabhida was the destination. It was only the propaganda media campaign that had already concluded that Moses Mabhida in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, would have won the bid from the Sascoc short-listing process.


The fact that the private sector was coming to the party was only realised after the decision was made, where we received a lot of goodwill and people who were ready to support and partner in the hosting of the Olympics.


The Ministry of Tourism had not been engaged, broadly speaking, because the submission to Cabinet was the first stage. Thereafter we would have been in a position to quantify the bid in terms of the resources, including from the context of sport tourism, which would have required the participation of the Department of Tourism. That was all part of the process. That consultation and engagement did not take place.


Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Minister, you have been quoted as saying that you would like to motivate a reversal of Cabinet’s decision not to spend the $50 million to host the Olympics. Do you have reason to believe that the spending of this money and the hosting of this event will benefit the poor, or increase our capacity to deliver the needed services, and where will those benefits lie? Thank you.


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: What we said was that if there was the possibility of engaging further on this particular issue, it would be most welcome. That process would involve civil society and the private sector where, like I said, there has been a reservoir of goodwill. South Africa might not have the same opportunity to host the Olympics after 2020 because that reservoir of goodwill also comes from the international community and from within the Olympic movement. So, in this particular instance, out of a process of engagement, in which persuasive arguments were made from all directions within South Africa, the question was raised - and I think it was raised out of goodwill by ordinary citizens and international people in the Olympic movement - whether or not there was a possibility for us to revisit that particular decision. So, if that will occurs in the near future, it will be out of a process of engagement.


Mr T D LEE: One of the reasons given by the Minister was that Cabinet wanted us to consolidate the gains made during the World Cup. One of these gains is the infrastructure and stadiums we now have, but now there is the massive problem of maintaining those stadiums. My question then is: What are we going to do to assist municipalities and cities to maintain and consolidate these gains?


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: At the present moment we are finalising our country report. Part of that work is the question of what we are going do with the stadia that were built so that communities can actually benefit. Those gains include the fact that those facilities must be utilised by different people in poor communities. As it is now, they cannot access them. There is the potential for these stadiums to become white elephants that are only being accessed by people who are actually well off, and so on.


Part of consolidating the gains is to work with local government and, at the same time, look at the possibility of ensuring that ordinary poor developmental sport clubs in different communities can access these facilities. But that is not the only issue. There is the question of social cohesion and nation-building programmes that we actually need to sustain after the World Cup, as part of consolidating the gains of the World Cup.


Infrastructure development is ongoing and ever expanding, even in areas where people did not have access to certain things, such as sporting facilities and so on. To date we are running a programme of delivering artificial pitches in the rural and far-flung areas of South Africa. We are developing pitches and more throughout South Africa as part of the 2010 legacy, working hand in hand with the departments of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Human Settlements.


In the near future, we are going to finalise the resolution around infrastructure grants at the local level, in terms of the roll-out plan of facilities. This is part and parcel of the legacy that we celebrate going forward, in terms of facility and infrastructure expansion at the local government level.


Mr M M DIKGACWI: Minister, what I want to know is what the situation is for future bids. If we bid for any international event or game, are you prepared to consider it?


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: In terms of the question of bidding in the future, at the present moment we are working on a bidding strategy. That is because what is happening in South Africa today is this: you go to China, you meet a few people there who do karate and you pronounce yourself the president of the karate association. You commit, without consulting government, that yes, you can come to our country. When? Tomorrow. So, we need a bidding strategy so that everyone who wants to bid can understand that you cannot simply go and commit the country, with all due respect, without consultation with the South African government.


In the bidding process, we need to understand what is major and of interest to the country, such as the economic spin-offs and the things that help us in our sport tourism journey - job creation and the like. We need to know what the mega events are that we would choose as a country, because everybody looked at South Africa after 2010 and realised that this was the perfect place to host most sporting events. So, we are in a process of developing a bidding strategy that will be tabled for proper discussion and adoption, both here in the House and out there in engagements with the federations in South Africa’s sporting fraternity.


Position regarding application of criteria based on race and/or culture when children are adopted or placed in foster care


37.   Adv A D Alberts (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Social Development:


(1)        Whether the Government applies any criteria that are based on (a) race and/or (b) culture when persons apply to (i) adopt children or (ii) place children in foster care; if so, what are the relevant details;


(2)        whether the persons, who are applying for such (a) adoption or (b) foster care, may state preferences with regard to race and/or culture; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?                                     NO1744E


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The answer to question 1(a) is no. Government prioritises the best interests of the child when placing children in foster care and adoption. In the matching and placing of an adoptable child, as required by the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005, priority is given to prospective adoptive parents of the same race and culture as the child before considering parents from a different race and culture. This is intended to ensure stability and continuity in the child’s life and the potential to provide the child with, for example, the privilege of growing up within his own community and to continue with his own home language.


This practice is in line with section 232(3) and 240(1)(a), (2) and (3) of the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005, which stipulate that an adoption social worker may take the cultural and community diversity of the adoptable child and prospective adoptive parents into consideration during the assessment. The Children’s Court may take into account all relevant factors, including the religious and cultural background of the child, the child’s parents and the prospective adoptive parents when considering an application for adoption.


The answer to question 1(b) is also no. Persons applying to adopt a child can state preferences with regard to race and culture. The prospective adoptive parent or persons applying to adopt a child are given the opportunity during assessment by the adoption social worker to state their preferences regarding the race, culture, age and gender of the child they would like to adopt. The national Department of Social Development keeps the register of all adoptable children and prospective adoptive parents in South Africa.


With regard to question 2(b), the prospective foster parents are able to state their preferences in applying for foster care. However, section 184 (1) and (2) of the Children’s Act prescribe that before a Children’s Court places a child in foster care by a court order, the court must consider a report by a designated social worker about the cultural, religious and linguistic background of the child. It further clarifies that a child may be placed in the foster care of a person from a different cultural, religious and linguistic background to that of the child, but only if there is an existing bond between that person and the child, or a suitable and willing person with the similar background is not readily available to provide foster care to the child.


Mrs Y R BOTHA: I want to pose this question to the Deputy Minister: how many children have been adopted in South Africa during the period April 2004 to 31 March 2009? Could she also give us a breakdown of adoptions by different racial groups?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: That is a very lengthy question to answer now. [Interjections.] I think I will ask the hon member to allow me to give the full answer in writing. [Applause.]


Mrs H LAMOELA: Deputy Minister, according to the records of your own department, we have 2,1 million maternal orphans - those who have lost a mother - and 873 000 double orphans - those who have lost both a mom and dad, resulting in a child-headed household. Surely, Deputy Minister, one of the solutions is to start promoting adoption. My question is: Will the Deputy Minister give this House the assurance that an aggressive adoption campaign will be led by the Minister to promote adoption in order to reduce foster care, orphanages and the ever-increasing child-headed households, ensuring that the best interests of the child are promoted? Thank you.


The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I agree with you that there are many children who need to be adopted. African children, especially black children, make up the bulk of those children. In South Africa, African, Indian and coloured children are less likely to be adopted than white children. The majority of children who are orphaned or abandoned, or who are in alternative care, are Africans. Indian communities have very close family bonds. If a child’s parents are unable to take care of that child, relatives assume responsibility. But that does not happen with Africans. I think we have a duty to educate our people on the adoption system of our country. I thank you very much for raising this issue. [Applause.]


Position regarding success of steps taken to deal with a shortage of social workers, including a review of salaries


34.        Mrs C Dudley (ACDP) asked the Minister of Social Development:


(1)        Whether she has found that steps taken by her predecessors to deal with a shortage of trained social workers have been successful; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,

(2)        whether she has found that the specified steps have had an impact in dealing with the different facets of family breakdown, particularly in rural areas; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;


(3)        whether there has been a review of salaries for social workers in the public and private sector; if not, why not; if so,


(4)        whether the salaries were found to be adequate with regard to enabling trained social workers to continue in their careers instead of seeking alternative employment; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?            NO1534E


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngiyabonga lungu elihloniphekile. [Thank you, Chairperson; thank you, hon member.]


Yes, the regrading of the salaries of social workers and the implementation of the occupation specific dispensation, OSD, ensured competitive remuneration for social workers and managed to retain social workers within the profession.


Since its inception in 2007, the scholarship programme has managed to train and recruit a total number of 5 574 students and absorbed 3 237 into employment in the various provincial departments of social development.


The department is currently undertaking a study to evaluate the implementation of the recruitment and retention strategy to determine whether the interventions put in place have addressed the challenges of the shortage of social workers in the country. The study will be finalised by the end of the 2011-12 financial year.


The department has also embarked on the development of and training on programmes for families. This will ensure that newly qualified social workers are equipped with the knowledge and skills to address the breakdown of families in rural areas. The development of a White Paper for families, which aims to promote family life and strengthen families, will also improve service delivery in all communities, including rural areas.


Yes, there has been a review of salaries for social workers, only in the public sector, in 2004. This involved the regrading of social worker salaries and the implementation of the OSD, which took place in 2008 and 2009, through the implementation of the Policy on Financial Awards to Service Providers, which has recently been reviewed. The department will implement programme funding instead of providing subsidies for salaries to nongovernmental organisations, NGOs. This will ensure that NGOs receive optimal funding for salaries of social workers.


The regrading of the salaries of social workers and the implementation of the OSD ensured a very competitive remuneration package for social workers and managed to retain social workers within the profession.


Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, nakuwe lungu elihloniphekile. [Thanks to you, Chairperson, and you, hon member.]


Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy Minister, in the Budget Vote debate the ACDP focused attention on the fact that foster-care grants have ground to a halt. Since then an urgent court order was obtained in Gauteng, giving the Minister and MECs until the end of 2014 to find solutions to the crisis. Now a senior social worker has said that the backlog was caused primarily by the general shortage of social workers. So, without social workers, can we now expect the court order or any amended legislation to make any difference? Are we doing enough? Obviously there is a lot that needs to be done, but in the particular area of social workers, have we done everything we possibly can?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I don’t have all the details on that particular issue. Can I come back to you at a later stage?


Mrs Y R BOTHA: Hon Deputy Minister, are there any mechanisms in place to increase the enrolment of students to study social work. If so, what are the details thereof?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon member, I do have information on that. The department has established a joint management forum, comprising departmental officials, institutions of higher learning and the Department of Higher Education and Training. One of the primary objectives of the forum is to look at increasing the intake of social work students without compromising quality. The department conducts a careers fair annually to high school students to intensify the marketing of the social work profession. Radio and newspapers are also being used to encourage the youth to enrol for the social work profession.


In addition, the department has increased the scholarship payment. We all know that the scholarship was R40 000, and we have increased that to the full cost per student. [Applause.]


Ms H N MAKHUBA: I thank the Deputy Minister for the response. While we recognise that there are several plans in place to encourage and assist students to take up social work as a career, and while we know that there are funding and bursaries and that communication is being done with the universities and schools, the problem is that izingane zethu [our children] are not taking social work seriously as a respectable career. They feel that doing travel, tourism and marketing is much better than social work.


What strategy can be implemented to market the field to the youth so that it is seen as a viable, important and respected career choice by the youth? As we speak, there are many matriculants at home who could be taking up the opportunity, seeing that government is funding the training, but they say that it’s a career yabantu abadala [for the elders] and not for them.


IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga lungu elihloniphekile, futhi ngibonga nalo mbuzo owulethayo kule Ndlu yesiShayamthetho. Yiqiniso elingephikiswe ukuthi abantwana bethu abawufuni lo mkhakha wezenhlalakahle. Abanye abantwana njengoba sibanxenxa ukuthi baye emanyuvesi ukuyofunda kulo mkhakha, bayavuma uma besasemakhaya, bathathwe bangene emanyuvesi bafunde unyaka owodwa, uma sebephakathi nonyaka bashintshele kokunye ngoba vele bebengawuthandi lo mkhakha wezenhlalakahle.


Ayikho enyo into esingayenza ngaphandle kokuthi senze lo msebenzi wezobusonhlalakahle ube muhle njengeminye imisebenzi. Njengokuthi sibheke ukuthi imiholo yabo injani kanye nezindawo abasebenza kuzo, ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Uzokhumbula ukuthi akuzona zodwa nje izifundo zosonhlalakahle abangafuni ukusithatha kodwa nezinye izifundo njengezifundo zolimi nje, abantwana sebeyazibalekela.


Kukithina ukuthi sibakhuthaze emakhaya, ezindaweni lapho sihlangana  khona emphakathini, sibakhombise nobuhle balo msebenzi ukuthi umsebenzi wezenhlalakahle  umsebenzi owakha isizwe, okhulisa ubuntu bethu kusukela ebuncaneni ukuya ebudaleni bethu. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOMENT: Thank you, hon member. I also thank you for the question that you are bringing here to the National Assembly. It is true that our children do not like the social work field. Some children agree to study this field when they are requested to do so whilst they are still at home, but once they are admitted to the universities, they only study it for one year, and then change to something else as they do not like social work in the first place.


There is nothing else that we can do but to make this social work as attractive as other jobs. We should look at how their salaries are structured, as well as at the conditions at the places where they work - especially in the rural areas. You will remember that it is not only social work that they do not want to do, but that there are other fields like language studies that they do not like - children are shying away from them.


It is up to us to encourage them from home, in social gatherings, and also to show them the good side of social work - that it is a job that builds a nation, our ubuntu from the young age to our old age. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]


Mrs S P KOPANE: In her response during the oral questions session in this House on 10 March 2010, your predecessor, Mrs Edna Molewa, said:


We are aware of the challenges that face the private sector as well as the NGOs with regard to bringing their salary package on par with that of government. And, indeed, we have engaged with the private sector and, in particular, the NGOs to try to find the mechanism to support those NGOs.


My question is: What was the outcome of those discussions? Secondly, were those mechanisms implemented? If they are not being implemented, why is that? After all, this is a crisis that is facing us.


IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga kwilungu elihloniphekile, futhi ngiyawubonga nombuzo wakho. Anginayo imininingwane yalo mbuzo owubuzayo manje kodwa ngingaya kohlala phansi ngibheke ukuthi umphumela walokhu okwashiwo nguNgqongqoshe obekhona ngaphambilini ube yini. Okwamanje anginayo imininingwane ephathelene nalokho.


Ngiyacela-ke kwilungu elihloniphekile ukuthi linginikeze isikhathi sokuthi ngihambe ngiyobheka lokhu elikhuluma ngakho manje nokubhekelelwa kwemiholo yezisebenzi zikahulumeni. Kodwa-ke, esikwaziyo thina sonke ukuthi empeleni imiholo yabantu abasebenza kuhulumeni nabantu abasebenza ezinkampanini ezizimele ayilingani; yingakho abasebenzi bephuma lapha emisebenzini kahulumeni baye lapho kunamadlelo aluhlaza khona.


Ngalokho ngicela ukuthi sibe nesikhashana sokuthi sibheke ukuthi umphumela walokhu okwavunyelwana ngakho ukuthi waba yini. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you hon member, and I also thank you for your question. I do not have the details pertaining to the question you are asking now, but I can sit down and look at what the outcomes were of what the previous Minister said. But right now I do not have the details pertaining to that.


I am, therefore, requesting you, hon member, to give me time to go and look into what you are talking about now and also to look into the salaries of government personnel. But we all know for a fact that the salaries of the people who are working for government and those who are working for private companies are not the same, and that is why people leave government jobs for greener pastures.


That is why I am requesting some time to look at what the outcomes were of what was agreed upon. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]


Particulars regarding Government’s response to acid mine drainage, and costing of recommendations contained in report


54.        Mr G R Morgan (DA) asked the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs:


(1)        What is the current status of the government’s response to the acid mine drainage in the (a) western, (b) central and (c) eastern basins;


(2)        whether the recommendations in the report entitled Mine Water Management in the Witwatersrand Goldfields with special emphasis on acid mine drainage have been fully costed; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?                                                                                                            NO1762E


The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: The response to the hon Morgan’s question is as follows: With regard to the implementation programme which we have embarked on to deal with the issue of acid mine drainage, particularly in the area of the western basin, we would like to indicate that we have begun with the implementation of an immediate solution that will reduce or even completely eradicate the surface decant in this basin.


A process has been embarked upon to ensure that a due diligence review is undertaken by one of our institutions, the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, TCTA. This work will result in the production of a business plan on 7 July 2011. We will then be able to go further with regard to actually and tangibly dealing with the very difficult challenge of acid mine drainage.


Regarding the central basin, the implementation of a solution that will also prevent the underground mine water level from reaching environmentally critical levels there is also recommended in the report. Once again, TCTA is dealing with that analysis and with due diligence in that area.


In the eastern basin, the implementation of a solution that will prevent the underground mine water level reaching the environmentally critical level is also recommended. In this regard, our department is monitoring the rate of mine water rise in the eastern basin on a continuous basis. We are also maintaining contact with the liquidators who are currently busy at that mine, because, as we know, it is currently under liquidation. As a matter of fact, we can indicate that there is a meeting tomorrow between the liquidators and our officials to address this matter.


Regarding the second question about funding and full costing, yes, we believe that as we go on there will be a need to cost this exercise further. For now, we are certain that the costing for this financial year, which was done on an amount of R225 million, will help us deal with this problem. For the following year, 2012-13, a guesstimated figure has also been looked at, but we are able to now guess that the final figure for these three basins will need to be more than a billion rand. It will definitely depend on the solutions that are proposed. [Time expired.]


Mr G R MORGAN: Hon Minister, thank you for your very comprehensive reply. I guess it’s understandable that we don’t have all the costs at the moment. It is a short-term, medium-term and long-term solution that is required to deal with acid mine drainage, AMD. Indeed, we will have to manage it for ever because one cannot come up with a solution to get rid of AMD permanently.


The question I want to put to you, though, is this: One of the most important environmental governance principles is “the polluter pays”. That means that if you pollute in South Africa, you are held to account and you have to pay for the rehabilitation. With that in mind, how can it be justified that your department is using R225 million of taxpayers’ money to get the ball rolling? In essence, this is a subsidisation of the polluter. Secondly, will your department commit to aggressively pursuing some kind of cost recovery from the polluters to ensure a sustainable solution to the funding of the AMD response over time?


The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Indeed, it is true that this exercise requires long-term planning as we go forward. Even this amount of money is not enough. However, as a responsible government in South Africa, it is of critical importance that we don’t look at a problem becoming worse and worse every day. It is for that reason that we resolved, at a Cabinet level, to allocate this amount of money as a short-term measure to eradicate the problem for now, while we are also looking at all other solutions, including the “polluter pays” principle. As a matter of fact, three of our pieces of legislation contain the “polluter pays” element, such as the Mining Act and Water Act, as well as our National Environmental Management Act. So, we can use any of them. At this time we have resolved to use section 19 and 20 of the Water Act to follow all those mines that have to come on board in terms of payment and really ensure that this principle of “the polluter pays” works.


Also, Treasury is currently working with us to investigate other methods and mechanisms of ensuring that there is sustainability and the possibility of a long-term funding programme going forward to deal with this problem. As government we definitely can’t come on board all the time and pop out taxpayers’ money to deal with a mining problem when people have pocketed profits and left.

Particulars regarding achievement of 2015 target to send 10 000 qualified artisans into the economy annually


  1. Ms N Y Vukuza-Linda (Cope) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:


Whether his department is on track to reach its target by 2015 to send 10 000 qualified artisans into the economy on an annual basis; if not, why not; if so, (a) how will his department ensure that the artisans are qualified to enter the job market and (b) how much money has been allocated to training these artisans annually?                                                                                       NO1746E


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, first please allow me to apologise to the Speaker. Earlier I was merely trying to offer assistance to the Leader of the Opposition, saying that we have a Sector Education and Training Authority, Seta, which can teach him how to send e-mails to the correct addresses. [Laughter.]


The department is confident that over 10 000 well-qualified artisans will enter the economy every year onwards. This is already the case for the financial year ending 31 March 2011, when we had a total of 11 778 qualified artisans.


This trend is set to continue, with an estimate of over 80 000 qualified artisans entering the job market over the next five years. These artisans will be well qualified to enter the job market because almost all of them will be artisans qualified in scarce skills trades needed by the economy. The competence of every artisan learner is tested through a trade test that is set by the industry itself, as well as through ensuring quality assurance.


At present the average Seta grant per artisan learner is R32 000 per annum. The provisional target is to register over 26 000 new artisan learners in this year and to keep training the over 50 000 that entered over the last two years. It takes an average of three years to produce an artisan. That amounts to a total of R2,4 billion that will be allocated to the training of artisans in 2011-12.


Ms N Y VUKUZA-LINDA: Minister, thank you for your answer. What are you up against? What is the backlog like? What are you chasing? What are your targets? How will you meet them? What are your indicators of success? How did you come about with the 10 000 per annum? What are you satisfying? What is the greatest need out there?


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: The 10 000 target is in my performance agreement with the President. That was based on a combination of factors. Firstly, it was the need to increase the number of artisans. Secondly, it was looking at what is possible and feasible. I’m very pleased to say, by the way, that we have exceeded that target. Instead we are now going after the target that is contained in the New Growth Path of 50 000 artisans by 2015.


There have been a number of blockages in the system. I will mention a few. First, there has been a misalignment between students who are doing vocational certificates at the Further Education and Training, FET, colleges, or what we call the N programmes, and their placement. What we are doing now is to redirect Seta funding for learnerships to make sure that for at least every student who has qualified in a vocational certificate at an FET college and who requires placement as an apprentice, Seta money is used to place those students. That has been one of the major blockages and we are quite confident that we are going to crack that, irrespective of some people who are trying to create obstacles in our attempts to redirect the Setas. I also hope that in a couple of years – a couple of months - down the line, the hon member will be able to answer these questions herself.


Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Hon Minister, now and in your budget speech you have referred to the fact that you have already exceeded your target, a target which was to apply only four years from now. My question is: How did government get to this figure of 10 000? You say it is in your agreement, but how was this number of 10 000 determined, taking into account that in 1995, when the economy was far smaller than now, this country already had 13 000 artisans qualifying every year? Also, a recent study showed that this country has 830 000 unfilled positions because we lack skilled, high-class, high-quality artisans and other senior managers. So, why only 10 000 if you are already exceeding that figure? How did we come to that figure? Was it a thumb-suck figure or was it the result of a scientific study?


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Even when you are in the Opposition, give praise where it is due. We are doing the work. I would have expected that the member would at least have started by congratulating government that we are really doing our work. Siyasebenza. [We are working.] [Applause.]


At the time when we were finalising these targets with the President, we were using a lot of sources of information, including vacancies and research that had been done. The additional work that we have been doing enabled us to get more information about the number of artisans that had also been produced in other parts of the system. I must admit, though, that the challenge we have, which is my other agreement with the President, is that we don’t have reliable data. That is part of the task I have been given. As you know, I have been tasked to create a credible skills planning mechanism in this country in order to be able to increase the number of artisans.


But don’t take away our due, because we have done a lot. For instance, we have improved screening before trade tests - something that had not been done consistently across the system - at Indlela, previously called Olifantsfontein. We have put a lot of things in place to make sure that we increase the pass rate. This has been one of our biggest obstacles. The pass rate was too low because some of the people who come for testing were from fly-by-night artisan training initiatives. We are now beginning to actually stamp them out. We have put in a lot of work and we are also collecting further information in order to be able to ensure that we know exactly what we need. [Interjections.]


Mrs W J NELSON: I think we need to acknowledge the response from the hon Minister and the strides and achievements that have already been made in this regard. However, we will ask what role the Setas are playing in assisting these qualified artisans with workplace placement. Will the department be able to track these qualified artisans? If so, for how long will they be tracked to see whether they have really entered the job market?

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you for your question, hon member. We are working very closely now with the Setas - save one. We are working very closely with 20 of them. We have mandated the new boards of the relicensed Setas to place this issue as a priority. But we are not going to end there. We are in the process of finalising service level agreements between the department and each of the Setas and will be able to set targets in terms of how many artisans they will be able to produce. In the meantime, we are also working at building a common standard or a common information and communication technology, ICT, framework within which to collect this data and be able to track the artisans.


In fact, I might as well say that in the discussions that I have had with the Setas regarding how many more artisans they are able to take, they have indicated that they can double this. The critical issue, on which we have been working with Minister Patel, is to get workplaces and employers to open up their workplaces so that we are able to place these artisans. For instance, we can place 26 000 in terms of our plans with the Setas, but the challenge is that we need employers to open up their workplaces so that we can train these artisans. From the discussions that we had we are confident that we will be able to achieve that. Siyabonga. [Thank you.]


Steps to be taken regarding the private interests within the housing and construction industry of certain persons at the NHBRC


58.        Mr A C Steyn (DA) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:


(1)      Whether he had been informed of the private interests within the housing and construction industry of certain persons (details furnished) at the National Home Builders Registration Council (NHBRC); if so, (a) when and (b) in what way has he been informed; if not,

(2)      whether he intends to conduct an inquiry into the matter; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;


(3)      whether he intends taking steps in this regard; if not, how are the private interests of the said persons reconcilable with the positions they hold in the NHBRC; if so, what steps?                                                                                       NO1766E


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The question is whether we have received information indicating any wrongdoing around the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, which was one of our agencies, and whether such information is being dealt with.


Sadly, I must say that we have received such information, plenty of it, through our hotline. Further information has come from this House, from another whistleblower, if I can call him that, the same person who has asked me the question, the hon Steyn.

Further information has been given to us by the Special Investigating Unit, SIU. This information relates to conflict of interest around some of the officials of the NHBRC and such conduct has implications and undertones of corruption. We are seized with the situation. I had a meeting this morning with the portfolio committee, where I indicated to them that I would like to have a further meeting with them next week, when I have the finalisation of one part of the report of the SIU.


So, action will be taken, but the first action is to conclude that SIU report. I must indicate to the hon members that the report has come to me and I found a number of holes in it. It was insincere from the SIU and I sent it back. They are re-investigating the whole matter. But the saddest case is that one of the investigators from the SIU crossed the floor and joined the NHBRC. So, under my nose as Minister, and while I had ordered an investigation through the proclamation of the President in a Cabinet which has an IMC dedicated to fighting corruption, a member of the SIU responsible for the investigations, during the same week that the report was being submitted to me, was undergoing interviews and was given a job – a newly created position in the NHBRC. [Interjections.] As the Minister, I refused to approve such a job because, since it was a new job, I had to give the stamp of approval. As part of the investigations about that, I called on the board to suspend that lawyer who was engaged in those investigations and has now crossed the floor. [Applause.] We are on top of the situation, hon members, and I hope that further information which will be divulged to the portfolio committee next week will be of assistance. [Applause.]


Mr A C STEYN: Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon Minister for the action that he has taken to date and for the manner in which he has been forthcoming with information, particularly to me as well. However, there are very many senior officials across the Public Service who believe that once they have declared their interests, they are free to do business with the very agency that they work with. I would like to hear what your opinion is on that.


More importantly, the first part of my question referred very specifically to whether you have been informed by a senior person in this agency about their private interest and having a contract with that particular agency because, as you are aware, in correspondence with me, that individual has indicated that she has informed you by letter that she has a contract with the agency.


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Yes, I have had discussions with the senior person concerned and I must disclose that it was the chairperson of the NHBRC, who herself is also under investigation. During the course of that investigation she opted to resign. So, the report I referred to is also dealing with that matter and when it is concluded, as I indicated this morning to the portfolio committee, it will come back to this House.


Ms D E DLAKUDE: I wish to thank the hon Minister for work well done. I think the Opposition is also very happy about your report. As the portfolio committee we have been very concerned about the issues around the NHBRC. Hon Minister, when is the investigation going to be concluded?


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I indicated that the first report, or should I say the draft report, which came to me last month was sent back, because I could see that it was the kind of report that I could not table before this House. The SIU is busy re-investigating this matter and we are in their hands as to when the final report will be provided to the Ministry. Let me assure the House that as soon as that report is available, it will be made known.


Particulars regarding review of status of means test for free access to state hospitals


66.        Mr M Waters (DA) asked the Minister of Health:


(1)        Whether the status of the means test for free access to state hospitals has been reviewed; if not, (a) why not, (b) what is the income threshold that a person should earn before being charged for the services rendered at a state hospital and (c) how many persons exceeded this income threshold in the 2010-11 financial year;


(2)        what amount was (a) charged and (b) collected by state hospitals in the 2010-11 financial year?                NO1775E


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the question is about the means test for free access to state hospitals and the amount of money collected. The guiding principles are outlined in the National Health Act, Act 61 of 2003, in Annexure H, which is the patient classification policy. This policy was adopted in 2002 by the National Health Council. It provides for salient guidelines in respect of the application and interpretation of patient classification, financing subsidies and user fees.


We have not re-evaluated this since 2002, because we are trying to avoid hardship, especially for indigent people. Section 4 of the National Health Act, Act 61 of 2003, makes provision for certain users to be eligible for free health services in the public health sector. According to section 4(1), the Minister of Health, after consultation with the Minister of Finance, may prescribe conditions as to which categories of persons are eligible for such free health services at public health establishments as the two Ministers might then prescribe.


This means test is the assessment of income – both for a single person and also for a household. The classification is according to H(0), H(1), H(2) and H(3), whereby all H(0) patients are those who are formally unemployed and HG patients are people who, under certain conditions, are exempted, such as old-age pensioners and people on child support grants and veterans’ pensions, pensions for the blind, family allowances or disability grants, etc.

The issue of the amount collected differs from province to province. It ranges from R29 million in the Northern Cape to R334 million in Gauteng.


Mr M WATERS: I thank the Minister for that response. Minister, over the years the hospitals have failed to collect the levies due to them. This has amounted to tens and hundreds of millions of Rand over the years. There are currently no incentives ... Can you hear me, Minister? Oh, I thought you couldn’t hear me. There is currently no incentive for hospitals to collect the money because they don’t retain the money. All the money goes to the province. Are you looking into any possibility that would enable hospitals to retain a certain amount of the money that they collect? Thank you.


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, as you know, that is not determined by me. It is determined by Treasury regulations. It is not only in Health where there is this type of problem. But we do have discussions with the Minister of Finance in which we try to look into exactly what you are raising. We are greatly interested in this issue, but we can’t change Treasury regulations overnight to suit any one department. But, I think the Minister of Finance is very sympathetic to this view. It is being discussed.


Position regarding steps taken by Minister to remedy certain departmental deficiencies


  1. Ms N Y Vukuza-Linda (Cope) asked the Minister of Basic Education:


Whether she has taken steps to remedy (a) a strategic leadership vacuum, (b) the provincial department’s structure and culture of poor work ethics, (c) poor financial management systems and (d) the lack of monitoring and evaluation as identified by her department (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what steps?                                                                               O1750E


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The question is asked with regard to intervention in the Eastern Cape. The first one is about the vacuum in leadership and the answer is that in terms of section 100(1)(b) an intervention unit has been established and is based in the Eastern Cape to co-ordinate the activities of the intervention. Teams have been put together by Basic Education, National Treasury and the Department of Public Services and Administration to lead the various streams of the intervention, working with the provincial officials in the areas of planning, infrastructure, quality teaching and learning, financial management, services and human resource management and development.


In terms of the cumbersome culture of a poor work ethic in the province, these matters are part of a scoping exercise intended to uncover the underlying causes of the challenges facing the Eastern Cape Department of Education and to develop an intervention plan to review the organisational structure and to tackle the work ethic, which is indeed a problem in the province.


On poor financial management systems, again, the National Treasury team, led by Julinda Gantana, has taken charge of the financial management component and related functions in the Eastern Cape Department of Education. While dealing with the underlying problems, the team has also started to address systems, processes and procedures in this regard, and a report on the scoping of underlying problems will be finalised and submitted to me at the end of this month.


In terms of the lack of monitoring and evaluation, officials of the Department of Basic Education and the Eastern Cape Department of Education held engagements on 24 March 2011 to address issues related to monitoring and evaluation, with specific reference to improving learner outcomes, enhancing data credibility and image and the monitoring of the system as a whole.

The Minister and the Deputy Minister addressed senior management and focus sessions for district directors on 6 June to deal with monitoring and evaluation with a view to improving the quality of teaching and learning in Eastern Cape schools. Plans for short-term intervention are implemented, while medium- to long-term plans will emerge from the scoping exercise under way.


Ms N Y VUKUZA-LINDA: Thank you, Minister, for you answer. My question is: With regard to the elements that you have answered, is there any targeted intervention in terms of capacity-building for the officials in the Eastern Cape, so that by the time you pull out, they are able to go on on their own?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Definitely, hon member, and that is why the teams that are there are working with officials in the province, making sure that together they teach each other and learn together, so that when the teams withdraw, the province can continue to run with its work. An intervention can’t be permanent. At some stage, whichever teams have been sent to the province will have to withdraw and the province will have to run its education system. Therefore, it is central to the intervention in the province that this has been done.


Dr W G JAMES: Minister, part of the problem around a work ethic and a commitment to the vocation of teaching has to do with the fact that many provincial departments of education have surrendered their managerial prerogative. In many cases that managerial prerogative has been surrendered to trade unions. This is the worst in the provinces that can afford it the least, like the Eastern Cape, as you know, and Limpopo.


My question to you is, since unions have the right to exist and can play a positive role in education, are you willing to facilitate a gathering of the 13 trade unions – yes, there are 13 unions operating in education - to form a federation of trade unions in education and to commit themselves to a charter that defines their positive role in the education system?


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The problems that are troubling the education system go beyond that. I concede and acknowledge that there is a leadership problem in the system, from provinces into the schools. The problem cannot be with specific unions because even where there are unions, in schools and provinces where there is proper management, things are working. So it’s sometimes not fair to blame unions only. For me the buck stops with the managers – the school managers. Some schools, even those led by different unions, do function if the school commits itself to functioning. It is not accurate or fair to blame unions. It is also about management, leadership and a host of other activities that create problems within the sector.


We have what we call the Quality Learning and Teaching Campaign, QLTC, which has been signed by all teacher unions. We meet regularly and raise problems that have been picked up with union members. But, again, they have to be drawn to everyone’s attention. We have to be alerted and engage with unions. So, that federation you are talking about is a process that is being undertaken. We have a QLTC in every province. It consists of teacher trade unions, parents and learners as key stakeholders in education. We use that forum to deal with the issues and challenges that you allude to. The fact of the matter is that the problems go beyond unionism. The problem is mainly about leadership and management in our schools and even our provinces.


Mr D C SMILES: I just want to know from your department whether you have really taken over in the Eastern Cape. Two matters were raised in the media last week that are cause for concern. One, the national team and the provincial team were supposed to meet last week and there were some problems with that meeting. Secondly, there is a stand-off between the national task team leader and the accounting officer, Mr Manya, who wanted to know what his position and role in this national task team are. Thank you.


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: In terms of the intervention, what we agreed with the province was that for the first three months, because of the high instability caused by the termination of transport, we would allow for a period of stability. That took us up to the end of June. After the first phase, we go into the second phase. That is when the problems you mention arose, because it meant practically taking over the powers. Some difficulties arose. This morning Cabinet resolved that we will be sending a communiqué to the province to clarify section 100(1)(b). I think the province didn’t have a full understanding. We clarified that section 100 (1)(b) means complete take-over, which, we think, the province did not quite understand. That is why Mr Manya was asking where he fitted in. So, Cabinet clarified this today and we will be sending a communiqué to the province.


In terms of the plan, the first phase was to allow for stability, use June as a scoping period and identify concretely what the real problems were. After June, we’ll tackle the difficult problems of the province, which are as old as the department itself. For 17 years that department has never had a clean audit. They have been moving between “adverse” and just about anything else. The whole idea is to really go into the most difficult questions from July onwards, after scoping and after being satisfied that the problems causing instability have been settled, such as teachers, transport, school nutrition and books. We are waiting for that period to stabilise before we intervene practically and begin to rock the boat in the province. [Time expired.]




NoticeS of Motion

Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the provision of clean running water and sanitation in the rural areas of South Africa.


Ms S C N SITHOLE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates the increase in teenage pregnancy.


Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and how to ensure that South Africa remains a world leader in air safety compliance.


Mrs S P KOPANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the continuous occurrence of and possible solutions to infant deaths as a result of negligent mothers.


Mr C L GOLOLO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates the introduction of environmental studies and the appreciation of nature in the school curriculum.


Mr N D DU TOIT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates whether any fisheries functions of the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should be transferred to the provincial government, as is permitted in the Marine Living Resources Act.


Mrs R E NYALUNGU: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates strategies to deal with the mushrooming of illegal land invasions.


Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis namens die DA sal voorstel:


Dat die Huis toenemende kubermisdaad bespreek, asook die rol wat die regering saam met die Parlement kan speel om internetgebruikers se veiligheid te verseker.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)


[Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates increasing cybercrime, and the role government and Parliament can play in providing security to Internet users.]


Mr G R MORGAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the high levels of rhino poaching in South Africa and whether the current response measures to curb poaching are adequate.


Mr N E GCWABAZA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates the proposal to change the current medical aid deductions system to that of tax credits to benefit the poor.




(Draft Resolution)


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the 192-nation United Nations General Assembly on Tuesday elected Mr Ban Ki-moon to a second term as the global body’s Secretary-General;


  1. further notes that under the resolution, which was adopted by acclamation, Mr Ban’s second term will run from 1 January 2012 to 31 December 2016; and


  1. congratulates Mr Ban on his re-election and wishes him well in his second term as the UN Secretary General.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that Cape Town, along with Dublin, Ireland and Bilboa, Spain, has been shortlisted for the International Council of Societies of Industrial Design’s bi-annual 2014 World Design Capital Award;


  1. further notes that the prestigious title is awarded to a city in recognition of its accomplishments in using design as a catalyst for development and reinvention, as well as for improving its social, cultural and economic environments;
  2. acknowledges that Cape Town’s bid, supported by local and provincial government, creative industry organisations and institutions, academia and the media, has been a joint effort by the City of Cape Town, the Central City Improvement District and the Cape Town Partnership;


  1. further acknowledges that this nomination will greatly contribute to exposing talent and developing local industries; and


  1. supports the City of Cape Town’s bid to be named the 2014 World Design Capital, which will be announced on 26 October 2011.


Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that forty-four people were killed and eight badly injured when a plane crashed onto a highway and burst into flames in northern Russia, narrowly missing an inhabited area, on Monday evening, 20 June 2011;


  1. further notes that seven of the eight injured were in an extremely serious condition and that they were all being treated for burns; and


  1. conveys its heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes a speedy recovery to those who are injured.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that acclaimed South African playwright Athol Fugard received a Lifetime Achievement Award at the prestigious Tony Awards in New York on Sunday, 12 June 2011;


  1. further notes that Athol Fugard has received a total of eight nominations in the past, including four for Best Play for Sizwe Banzi is Dead, The Island, A Lesson from Aloes, Master Harold and the Boys, and Blood Knot;


  1. recognises that he has written one novel, Tsotsi, of which a film version won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Film in 2006;


  1. further recognises that South African playwright Eve Ensler received the Stevenson Award, which recognises members of the theatre community for their humanitarian efforts;


  1. acknowledges that the South African-based Handspring Puppet Company received a special Tony Award for their animals in War Horse, which received the Best Play Award;


  1. congratulates Athol Fugard, Eve Ensler and the Handspring Puppet Company on their excellent achievements;


  1. commends Athol Fugard in particular, who has used his art to speak out against racism and continued to be an “active voice for freedom and equality”; and


  1. wishes all these artists continued success and achievement in the international theatre industry.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that South African veteran hockey player Pietie Coetzee has smashed the world record for the most international goals in hockey;


  1. further notes that Coetzee scored 4 goals in South Africa’s 5-5 draw with the USA in the Champions Challenge in Dublin while the record of 220 goals stood for 20 years; and


  1. congratulates Coetzee on her achievement and wishes the team well for the remainder of their matches during the Challenge.


Agreed to.




(The late Mr Zack du Plessis)


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that beloved South African actor Zack du Plessis passed away in the early hours of the morning, on 16 June 2011, at his home in Pretoria;


  1. further notes that Du Plessis, an icon in the South African acting community, battled an aggressive form of cancer, yet preferred to be cared for at home so as to be with his family;


  1. acknowledges that Du Plessis, who will be remembered for his dry sense of humour and ever-present comic frown, was the star of several award-winning productions including Orkney Snork Nie, Vetkoek Paleis and Maak ‘n Las;


  1. further acknowledges the contribution Du Plessis made to the South African acting fraternity; and


  1. extends its condolences to Du Plessis’s family.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the announcement on Monday, 20 June 2011, of the preliminary Springbok squad of 49 players named for the 2011 tournament by the South African Rugby Union (SARU) with the final Rugby World Cup squad of 30 being named on 23 August 2011;
  2. further notes that the squad includes six uncapped players, 21 World Cup winners, and four players who are based with European clubs;


  1. congratulates the 49 players who made the squad; and


  1. wishes them well with their preparations for the 2011 World Cup.


Agreed to.


The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Chief Whip. I am not sure that the Rules allow you to keep up this exercise, hon members.


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I know the Rules very well, sir, and I can assure you ...


The SPEAKER: They don’t allow you to keep on all the time. But continue, hon members.


Mr M J ELLIS: But, Mr Speaker, I need to remind you that ...


The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time is up! [Laughter.]


Mr M J ELLIS: I am sure you will let me do one more, sir? After all, we do write the Rules, sir!



(Draft Resolution)


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that the DHL Stormers won the South African Conference of the Vodacom Super 15 Tournament, with a thrilling 44-34 victory over the Toyota Cheetahs on Saturday, 18 June 2011;


  1. further notes that the DHL Stormers and the Sharks kept South Africans’ hopes alive in the tournament by qualifying for the play-offs; and


  1. congratulates both teams for qualifying and wishes them all best of luck as they take on their Australasian counterparts in the battle to be crowned 2011 Super Rugby Champions.


Agreed to.


The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member. You may take your seat now!


Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I just wanted to say that there are no more motions!


The SPEAKER: There is one more motion on the Order Paper.




(Draft Resolution)




That the House -


  1. subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, establishes an Interim Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation in accordance with the following interim Rules:


  1. Establishment


There shall be an Interim Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation.


2.       Composition


The Committee shall consist of 9 National Assembly members and 5 Council members.


3.       Functions and powers


The Committee shall –


  1. exercise its powers and functions in accordance with the Rules applicable to joint committees generally, unless otherwise provided for in these interim Rules; and


  1. in accordance with the criteria identified in these interim Rules, scrutinise –


  1. delegated legislation –


(i)   requiring approval by Parliament for it to enter into force;


(ii)  which Parliament may disapprove, thus invalidating it; and


(iii) that requires consultation with Parliament; and


  1. delegating provisions in bills before their formal consideration by the House; and


  1. any other delegated legislation agreed upon by the Committee.


4.       Scrutiny criteria


  1. Delegated legislation shall be scrutinised by the Committee in accordance with some or all of the following criteria:


  1. Whether they impose levies, taxes or duties not authorised through a money bill passed in accordance with section 77 of the Constitution;


  1. whether they comply with procedural aspects pertaining to delegated legislation;


  1. whether they impinge on the jurisdiction of the courts;


  1. whether they are retrospective in nature and, if so, whether that is permitted in terms of the parent Act;


  1. whether they conform with the objects of the parent Act;


  1. whether they appear to make unusual use of powers conferred by the parent Act;


  1. whether they have been properly drafted;


  1. whether they trespass on personal rights and liberties, including those set out in the Bill of Rights, in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution; or


  1. whether they amount to substantive legislation; and


  1. delegating provisions in bills shall be scrutinised by the Committee in accordance with some or all of the following criteria:


  1. Whether they impose levies, taxes or duties not authorised through a money bill passed in accordance with section 77 of the Constitution;


  1. whether they impinge on the jurisdiction of the courts; or
  2. whether they have been properly drafted.


5.       Reporting


Upon completion of the scrutiny process, the Committee shall –


(1)        report its findings to the House for the information of the relevant portfolio or select committee and other members; and


(2)        in view of the provisions of section 146 of the Constitution, specifically report to the National Council of Provinces on delegated instruments relating to matters contained in Schedule 4.


6.       Dissolution


The Committee shall be dissolved by resolution of both Houses.


Agreed to.




(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mrs M M MAUNYE: On behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, I wish to make a statement on the Refugees Amendment Bill, B 30D of 2010. This Bill was processed by the portfolio committee and was passed by this House. It then went to the NCOP for consideration.


The NCOP has made its contribution by way of inserting some amendments. In general, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs concurred with the NCOP amendments that the status determination committee is allowed to establish subcommittees to deal with the status of applicants for refugee status more expeditiously. However, we amended the Bill to clarify that these subcommittees should not consist of less than two members, as we could not allow a one-person committee to make such an important determination, which affects people’s lives directly and substantially. Making sure that these subcommittees have at least two members will also improve the quality of decisions and prevent corruption.


Hon members, you know by now that the critical objective of this Bill is, among others, to improve capacity, effectiveness and efficiency of the status determination system of the Department of Home Affairs and to correct the technical errors contained in the Amendment Act of 2008.


We request this House to agree to the Refugee Amendment Bill with its amendment. I thank you.

There was no debate.




That the Bill, as amended, be passed.


Motion agreed to.


Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.





(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)


There was no debate.




That the Bill, as amended, be passed.


Motion agreed to.


Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.



There was no debate.



That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.




That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Hon Speaker, hon members, today, as we are tabling the report on the Joint Ghanaian and Indonesian study tour, undertaken by the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, together with the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we want to indicate that the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration invited the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to undertake a study tour to Ghana and Indonesia as a joint initiative and collaboration, particularly on matters that are of importance to both committees.


This was done in order to learn from these countries’ standardised public administration practices, given their governance structures. Ghana and Indonesia share the following similarities with South Africa: They have acquired democracy, they have three spheres of government and they are classified as developing countries. The difference is that South Africa does not have a standardised public administration across the three spheres of government, as is the case in both those countries.


The study tour was in anticipation of South African legislation that would create a seamless public service. This would require intensified co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations. These two committees had to analyse how the local government sphere fits into the mainstream public service, how salaries are structured and how personnel transfers and deployments are handled between the three spheres of government with ease. The laws governing employees would be virtually similar, with a similar structure of government.


It was pleasing to realise how Indonesia dealt with corruption in the public service, through the establishment of an independent ombudsperson - they call it “ombudsman” but, of course, it is an ombudsperson - who investigates and sanctions corruption practices in the public service. The ombudsperson is equivalent to what we refer to as the Public Service Commission in South Africa.


From the study we realised that we needed to discuss intensively the Public Service Commission and the Department of Public Service and Administration’s rules on how South Africa could properly relocate a reasonable structure that would hire, fire, recruit and do placements. I am sure it is a discussion that has to be placed on the table.


We definitely have to learn lessons for our Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, from the efficient Ghana Institute of Management and Public Administration, Gimpa. Palama was formally known as the South African Management Development Institute, Samdi.


Regarding all our findings and the challenges we observed, we have made recommendations accordingly and they appear in the report. Thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.




That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.





There was no debate.




That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.




That the Report be adopted.


Mr M J ELLIS: Speaker, I would like the objection of the DA to be noted in terms of the seventh order on the Order Paper.


Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance objecting).


Report accordingly adopted.




Prof B TUROK: Hon Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests. I would like to table a report on the Auditor-General’s report on the alleged nondisclosure of members’ interests. The Auditor-General’s annual audit of Parliament for 2009-10 included an audit of the disclosures by Members of Parliament of their interests in companies or close corporations.


The registrar determined that 31 members had not complied with the requirement of the code of conduct. The registrar investigated the matter and found that, in most cases, the companies in question were dormant or never operated and that members had not received any benefit from the companies concerned. The committee therefore recommended the following penalties: All members who have been found guilty of a breach of the code of conduct must, firstly, attend a compulsory briefing on the requirements of the code of conduct; secondly, be informed in writing that the nondisclosure of interests is considered serious; thirdly, correct their existing records in their 2010 disclosure and, lastly, be issued with a warning that any future nondisclosure could result in the maximum penalty. I hope that was brief enough for the hon Ellis.


There was no debate.




That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, we have just received the sad news that veteran politician, former Member of Parliament and former Cabinet Minister, Prof Kader Asmal, passed away this afternoon. We will keep you informed of developments. I thank you.


The House adjourned at 17:43.







National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.       Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent


  1. Bills passed by National Assembly on 22 June 2011:


  1. Refugees Amendment Bill [B 30D – 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75).


  1. Immigration Amendment Bill [B 32D – 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75).


National Assembly


The Speaker


1.       Introduction of Bills


  1. The Minister of Finance


  1. Tax Administration Bill [B 11 – 2011] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 33721 of 3 November 2010.]


Introduction and referral to the Standing Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1.      The Minister of Trade and Industry


  1. Final Report of the Gambling Review Commission submitted to the Minister of Trade and Industry on the Review of the South African Gambling Industry and its regulation – September 2010.


  1. Executive summary of the Review of the South African Gambling Industry and its regulation.




National Assembly


1.   Report of the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on the special petition of Mr Amichand Munasur (submitted by Mr LT Landers, MP), praying for pension, dated 22 June 2011:


The Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having considered the special petition of Mr Amichand Munasur and having taken parliamentary legal advice, recommends that the petitioner’s request not be granted.


The committee wishes to make the following observations with regard to its recommendation:

  1. A special petition to Parliament should be a last resort when no other legal remedy is authorised by law to address an injustice alleged by a petitioner.


  1. Mr Munasur challenges the scope of the Public Service Coordinating Bargaining Council (PSCSC) Resolution 7 of 1998 and Resolution 12 of 2002, which deal with the registration of applications from potential beneficiaries for the recognition of non-pensionable services as pensionable years for public servants in service on 2 September 1998 and affected by past discriminatory pension practices.


  1. Mr Munasur’s late wife, Mrs Sherine Devi Munasur, was a public servant. She was employed on a part-time basis with the Department of Education for the periods of 17 August 1977 to 20 February 1985 and 21 February 1985 to 18 August 1989. She passed away from leukaemia on 18 August 1989, while still in service. Mrs Munasur was a member of the Temporary Employee Pension Fund. Her pension was calculated from 21 February 1985 to 18 August 1989. The initial contractual period was regarded as a non-pensionable period. It is alleged that a recommendation regarding her medical status from the Department of National Health and Population Development prevented her status, following an initial probation period, from being upgraded to that of permanent, which would have resulted in her admittance to the Permanent Employee Pension Fund.


  1. Mr Munasur argues that the break in service prevented his late wife from being recognised for continuous government service of seven years, which according to him amounts to an unfair labour practice.


  1. The petitioner also holds “that certain Public Servants are still being discriminated against on the basis of the discriminatory practices of the former National Party regime, because the pensions re-structuring by the … [PSCBC] does not recognize public servants [such as his late wife] who were not in service on 2 September 1998”.


  1. Although the redress mechanism envisaged by the mentioned resolutions does not serve Mr Munasur’s late wife favourably in light of the 2 September 1998 cut-off date, the legality of the mentioned resolutions can still be challenged in a court of law on the basis of the arguments presented by Mr Munasur. The petitioner has not yet challenged the legality of the resolutions in a court of law. As such, the petitioner has not exhausted all legal remedies.


In light of the above, the committee is of the view that the special petition of Mr Munasur is not yet ripe for consideration by Parliament, as the petitioner still has legal relief authorised by law to his disposal.


Report to be considered.