Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 06 Dec 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
TUESDAY, 06 DECEMBER 2016
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 10:04.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
EXTENSION OF REPORTING DEADLINE FOR AD HOC COMMITTEE ON FILLING OF VACANCIES
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, we move that this House, subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, extend the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on the Filling of Vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality has to report to 28 February 2017.
Motion agreed to.
EXTENSION OF DEADLINE FOR REPORTING BY AD HOC COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT OF NYDA BOARD MEMBERS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, we move that subject to the concurrence again of the NCOP that this House extends the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on appointment of board members to the National Youth Development Agency has to report to 31 March 2017.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, we reject the proposed motion that the appointment process of the NYDA Board be postponed to the end of March next year. On many occasions this Parliament was supposed to appoint the NYDA Board but because of internal squabbles in the ANC over who must be deployed there, this process has been delayed. A new ad hoc committee was constituted a month ago, but it has not congregated even once because the ANC treats this process with negligence. It is for a very long time now that we do not have the NYDA Board. We got it from reliable authority that the Minister in the Presidency has
appointed an interim board, and there is no provision in the National Youth Development Agency Act for a Minister to appoint an interim board; meaning that we have got a NYDA which is being run by an illegal entity. And that is not acceptable.
So, we do not agree with this process, unless there is a resolution by this Parliament that we must have interim measures. We can not agree to an endless postponement of the process to appoint the NYDA Board. What makes it unacceptable is that this postponement is being asked for the third time now, and all this is because of negligence by the ANC. So, we reject the proposal as it has been put here. Interim measures put in place must be legal, not what has been done now with regards to the NYDA. So we stand to reject the proposed motion as moved by the Chief Whip of the ANC. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr Y CASSIM: Deputy Speaker, I think the first point to note is that on the appointment of the NYDA Board, what this process has shown, not just this House but the country, is that the NYDA is nothing else but an employment agency for the ANC Youth League and their alliance partners. [Applause.] This was made evident when the previous ad hoc committee had appointed individuals based on a certain ANCYL faction. We had countless calls from different factions that said, this individual did not make it
because they did not come from the correct faction. And this is a reflection of the ANC; it is what has happened to our public entities and it is what has happened to the NYDA.
And now we sit in a situation where the time of Parliament has been completely wasted, where the resources of Parliament have been exhausted and where the development and the futures of young people have become yet another political football in the game which is patronage dispensation within the ANC-led government. [Applause.]
In the new process ANC members of the ad hoc committee did not even bother to pitch up to the meetings that were held. [Interjections.] For us to create opportunities for our young people, we need to dispense with being motivated for rewarding people that are from the correct factions. We need to ensure that we are able to streamline our government processes and we need to do away with the countless desperate measures to reward those that are politically loyal to the correct factions in the ruling party and the alliance partners. Therefore we must use this as a lesson going forward. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think what is important here is that we had actually completed the process of interviews. We had even short listed the people for submission to this House and when the report was ready then things just came to a standstill. I think, Chief Whip, the duty that you have is to crack the whip, honestly speaking.
Ngoba lomjikelezo uzophinda uqale phansi. Uyabona nje, sigudla intsika njengeZayoni. Kufika umsebenzi uqale, ungapheli, ngempela lento ayisemukeleki lokhu okwangempela ukuthi kulokho kwenziwa lomdlalo owenzeka la. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[This going around in circles will start all over again. As you can see, we are going around in circles. We get a task and start with it, but never finish; this game is really unbecoming.]
Because the board expired, we all knew that the board was expiring and then when the process had to be set in motion there is just games. I honestly believe that we have reached a point where the ANCYL must either shape up or ship out because we are in this state of limbo as far as the board is concerned because of the ongoing tensions there about deployment. We can not go to an interview process with names in our pockets. The interview
must speak on your behalf. You must go there and perform. But for us ...
... ukuthi siphathiswe imvilophu [envelope] ukuthi cha kahle hle abantu ababhekiwe ilaba. Yiyo lento eyenza ukuthi lenqubo [process] ibe nenkinga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... to be given a list of names indicating that these are the people to look out for, that‘s what is causing this process to be problematic.]
More than that, requirements are now being lowered because we want to cherry-pick in accordance of who has been earmarked. No, let us not do this to young people in this country. Let us not do them this disservice of playing cheap politics even where it does not matter. This is a crucial board about youth development and is not happening. That is why you will end up having illegal interim boards because desperate times call for desperate measures which at times are rooted in illegal means. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mnu S C MNCWABE: Sekela Somlomo, sithanda nathi ukudlulisa ukudumala kwethu ngalokhu esikuzwayo ukuthi kuzophinda kuhlehle
futhi inhlolokhono yamalungu aleli bhodi le-NYDA. Kusiphatha kabi lokhu ngoba leli bhodi libaluleke kakhulu ekusebenzeni kwe- NYDA. Leli bhodi yilona elinikeza umkhombandlela ekusebenzeni kwalenhlangano ebhekelele ukuthuthukisa abantu abasha ezweni lakithi. Kuningi okusadingwa abantu abasha ikakhulukazi ukuthuthukiswa kwamakhono abo, ukuthuthukiswa kwamathalente abo. Yisona sikhungo [structure] lesi uHulumeni asibeka ukuthi sibhekelane nalowo msebenzi. Kodwa indlela esibona siphatheke ngayo kuyadumaza. Besibona sengathi lenhlangano i-NYDA iza kahle, yathole nombiko wezimali ongenagcobho kulonyaka ophelile.
Kodwa, sisajabuliswe yilokho. Kuyasidumaza ukuthi lenhlolokhono ilokhu ihlehla. Isithathe undendende ukufa kwekati. Sithanda ukuzwakalisa ukudumala kwethu ukuthi kuphinde kuhlehlele unyaka ozayo. Besingajabula ukuthi mhlawumbe kuthiwe kuhlehliswa ngesonto noma amasonto amabili kodwa lokhu esikuzwayo ngempela kuyasidumaza. Kwenza ukuthi abantu abasha babone engathi uHulumeni ubabambisa amaqubu entenesha ngoba sengishilo kukhulu esikulindele kodwa sibona kuloko kuhlehla kubuyelwa emuva nje, kuwumjika-joe. Ngiyabonga, Sekela Somlomo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Chair, we would like to express our disappointment in regard to what we heard, which is that the
interviews of the NYDA members will be postponed again. This is disappointing to us because this board is important to the functioning of the NYDA. This board is the guide in the functioning of this organisation that is responsible for empowering the youth of our country. There is a lot that is required by the youth, especially skills development, talent development. This is the institution that the Government appointed to be responsible for such duties. However, the manner in which it is run is disappointing. We thought the NYDA was coming along perfectly; it even received a financial report with no discrepancies last year.
But, we are still happy about that. It‘s disappointing that these interviews keep on being postponed. It has taken forever. We would like to express our disappointment in that they have now been postponed until next year. We would have been less disappointed if they had been postponed for a week or two, but what has come to our attention is really disappointing. It gives the impression that the Government is making empty promises to the youth; as I mentioned earlier, we have high expectations but all we are seeing is a backward movement, a going around in circles. Thank you, Deputy Chair.]
Mr M P MAPULANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are requesting the House to extend the deadline because of the imperative to allow public participation and to allow the process to be as transparent as possible. We could have concluded this process without allowing South Africans to participate, but we thought we needed to extend this process so that we can allow our people to participate and for the process to be as transparent as possible. Our information is that the hon Minister has assigned a person on an interim basis to perform the functions that are supposed to be performed by the board so that there should not be any vacuum. This process has not been anticipated to be like this.
We could have concluded this process this year, however because of a variety of litigations we were faced with, we thought we should err on the side of caution. That is why we could not conclude the process as we anticipated the first time around.
This time around - and I am surprised why members of the opposition are contesting the fact that we want to do everything else in line with the requirements of the Act - we said we should not come up with any requirements that are outside of what the Act prescribes. That is why we have decided that the advert should be like that. We are going to run this process in line with what the Act requires and we are pleading with the
House to give us a little bit more time so that we can conclude this process, and the process can have integrity.
As for all these allegations about the youth league, we are not aware of that. [Interjections.] If that is happening, we are not aware of that. What we know ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Question put: That the motion moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 256: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Basson, L J; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F;
Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Esterhuizen, J A; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda,
R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnguni, P J; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van
Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 17: Dlamini, M M; Hlophe, H O; Jafta, S M; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Mahumapelo, J M K; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Ntshayisa, L M; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Swart, S N; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 1: Kwankwa, N L S.
Question agreed to.
Motion accordingly agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, we move again that the House suspends Rule 292(a)(i) which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed, since the committee‘s report was tabled for the purpose of conducting Second Reading debates today on the Finance Bill and the Adjustment appropriation Bill. I so move.
Motion agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATION OF CANDIDATES FOR APPOINTMENT TO PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question before the House is that Mr Richard Khaliphile Sizani, Ms Clara Phumelele Nzimande and Dr Tholumuzi Bruno Luthuli be recommended for appointment to the Public Service Commission. Are there any objections to the nomination as read out? Having being an objection, I now put the question. Those in favour will say AYES [Interjections.] and those against NOES [Interjections.] I think the AYES have it.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The DA would like to make a declaration, please.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, go ahead.
Declaration of vote:
Mr A D VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, the Constitution expects of the Public Service Commission, PSC, to see the establishment of an effective and efficient Public Service. Many of the frustrations in South Africa as can be seen through the
widespread unrest, violence, demonstrations, etc, relate to the poor state of our Public Service.
The PSC is therefore an important constitutionally created structure. While the commission has been trying its outmost to fulfil its mandate it has had limited impact. It has been troubled by extended periods of vacancies, not only is this disrupting the work of the commission, it‘s also grossly unfair towards that highly skilled and experienced potential commissioners to expect of them to put their careers on hold until possible reappointment.
The DA would certainly once given the opportunity, deal with this and bring much needed efficiency to the selection and appointment processes.
Another problem in the Public Service is that the best managers are often not promoted due to the ANC‘s declared policy of cadre deployment and the commission has been too quite about this. It is not surprising that government is struggling to improve the culture and work ethics in the Public Service.
Some ANC-aligned labour unions will do everything possible to block productivity measurement and efforts to reward excellence
in the Public Service. We see thousands of staff being on extended leave due to illness or slow disciplinary procedures. Senior managers failing to submit their annual declarations of financial interests, etc. There is a lack of accountability and action against those that transgress in the Public Service.
The DA supports the recommendation and wishes the nominated candidates well in their work. In identifying these three candidates, the portfolio committee clearly showed their preference for continuity and insight knowledge of the commission‘s work. I thank you.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, the EFF inspired by the anticorruption spirit of the July 26 movement led by our departed leader Fidel Castro, vehemently opposes the names put forward to fill vacancies at the PSC.
The PSC is constitutionally empowered to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and administration of the public service. It is also legally obliged to promote measures that would ensure effective and efficient performance within the Public Sector.
To do this, we need individuals of integrity, independent and not politically aligned. Unfortunately, the ANC sees each an every vacancy in the Public Service as an opportunity to appoint individuals who are aligned to the ANC.
The recommendation now is that we must appoint the politically connected, Ms Clara Phumelele Nzimande, Bruno Luthuli and Richard Sizani.
Ms Nzimande has a very scandalous history when it comes to management position. She was fired as a Group Executive of the SABC in 2011, because amongst other things whilst she was still a Group Executive there, she has threatened to remove the SABC board. She has tried to force the then board Chairperson, Ben Ngubane unilaterally to appoint Phil Molefe to the post of head of news in violation of the regulation of the employment of a senior management at the SABC.
She tried to use her proximity to political power to control the SABC board to appoint people who were of questionable character and to provide more airtime at the SABC for the ANC. We therefore can‘t trust her with this position.
We condemn the ANC caucus for trying to subvert government‘s process to serve their own narrow agenda and appoint their own people to such high positions. [Time expired.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the IFP supports the report. We participated fully in the interviews and we are quite satisfied that the individuals who have been recommended performed very well in the interviews and they demonstrated wealth of knowledge with regard to Public Service, which is what we actually need to build up the capacity of the Public Service to ensure that they inspire confidence.
We do want to emphasize the need to differentiate between political interference and the issues of intervention which came out very strongly in the interviews, because quite a number of issues which were raised were that there does seem to be difficulty in the working relationship between the political leadership and the administrative leadership. So, it‘s important that we are able to ensure that people know what it is that they must do whether they are in the political sphere or whether they are in the administrative sphere.
Again, our concern as the IFP is the fact that the reports which the commission commissioned and the recommendations that they
make find themselves wanting and most often they are not implemented. Therefore it will be important to ensure that this doesn‘t amount to wasteful and fruitless expenditure, when money has been spent on reports, when money has been spent on investigations and the relevant department and the relevant sectors actually don‘t implement what it is that they are suppose to implement.
So, it is our expectation that the commission moving forward holds people accountable and with the support of the portfolio committee, we must be able to name and shame so that in the final analyses we do credit and justice to the work of the commission.
So, on behalf of the IFP we would like to wish the three nominated candidates well in the execution of their duties and for them to understand that on their shoulders they carry a very heavy responsibility to ensure that Public Services is effective and efficient in the execution of its duties and the provision of service delivery to our people. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, the PSC is an important constitutional structure that has an important function in
assisting to build a responsive and capable civil service. The PSC produces very important reports on annual basis, which is our belief that this Parliament has not given as sufficient attention to these reports as it should.
We want to recommend that just like we do with the report of the Auditor-General, it might be important that various committees of Parliament beyond the Public Service and Administration Portfolio Committee may need to look at the annual reports of the Public Service Commission and utilise them much better way than has been the case thus far.
We have in the Scopa had an engagement with the Public Service Commission to see how we could in that committee utilise the reports that they make, but also the information that they have. We tried this in one hearing with the Department of Correctional Services and the interesting perspectives that they had, which broadened the information that we got from the Auditor-General.
So, we would want to say that it is an important institution that I think has generally been under utilised that does needs to be utilised much more. On this occasion, I am standing to voice the APC‘s support for the three nominees that we believe will be able to take the Public Service Commission forward and
that under the capable leadership of Advocate Sizani, the Public Service Commission has done better and can actually do even much more. I thank you.
Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, the PSC derived its mandate from Section 195 and 196 of the Constitution. It is tasked and empowered to amongst other things, to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and administration of the Public Service. This is a huge task, which also entails the evaluation of achievement or lack thereof of government programmes.
Above all, however, the PSC has an obligation to promote measures that would ensure effective and efficient performance within the public service and to promote values and principles of public administration as set out in the Constitution throughout the Public Service.
The current state of our Public Service leaves much to be desired. We can rightly ask whether the PSC is functioning at its optimal capacity. More importantly, we have to ask whether the PSC is effective. The NFP believes that the effectiveness of the commission is hampered by its current legal framework, which doesn‘t give its sufficient authority to be effective.
We propose that the PSC should be accorded the same powers enjoyed by the Public Protector. The PSC can currently only recommends actions with the executive but have no remedial powers which are enforceable and only be reviewed by the court of law. With the powers of enforceable remedial action, the PSC could intervene decisively in instances where the level of Public Service is insufficient or where the conduct of a public servant is unprofessional or unethical.
The NFP supports the portfolio committee recommendations. We share the same belief with the portfolio committee that all three candidates who have been nominated have a clear understanding of the mandate which they are to be entrusted with and that they are fit and proper persons to be appointed as commissioners of the PSC. I thank you.
Ms R M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and fellow South Africans, the ANC urge this House to support the recommendation of the portfolio committee for the adoption and appointment by the President with the following reasons, and probably let me just deal with the side issues - I think we should avoid dealing with personalised issues.
There is nothing adverse with regard to the Auditor-General‘s report and the likes. With regard to the performance of the PSC and in particular, it has assisted the committee with regard to the information they provide in terms of the declaration of financial interest; 30 days payment which Parliament and the committee have been engaging robustly on.
I take and accept the recommendation made by the APC, but I must say before this House that it has been a very informative educative process that has unfolded to appoint or recommend these three names. Firstly, it has been a smooth process with regard to the advert, the compliance with the act that governs the PSC‘s appointment and the NDP and its mandate
Secondly, with regard to the processes that unfolded, none of the organisations or political parties sitting in the portfolio committee had anything to say negatively or adversely with regard to the process.
Lastly, during the adoption of the report as well, all political parties which were present, and I won‘t go to those ones which were not present in the committee but I will deal with those ones who were present. We all agreed that these are men and women that are fit and proper, also with regard to their skills
and qualifications and their knowledge and capacity that they have.
They will ensure that at least there is more work that is done by the PSC. We have also taken into account the gender parities and the demographics as it may, hence we are recommending these three candidates.
Also, they are going to ensure that there is continuity with regard to the appointment and recommendation we are making. The ANC and the committee on behalf of the committee, we urge the House to adopt the report as presented. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, in terms of section 196(8)(a) of the Constitution, persons nominated for appointment to serve on the PSC must be approved by the majority of members of the National Assembly, although the division has not been demanded members are required to record their support for the recommendation. The bells will be rung for five minutes.
Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Mr Richard Khaliphile Sizani, Ms Clara Phumelele Nzimande and Dr Tholumuzi Bruno Luthuli as commissioners for the Public Service Commission.
AYES - 269: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Capa, R N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Davis, G R; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hill- Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jafta, S M; Jeffery, J H; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla,
N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Mahumapelo, J M K; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M N S; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Radebe, B A;
Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Steenhuisen, J H; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 14: Dlamini, M M; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Nominations accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 196(8)(a) of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF THIRD REPORT OF RULES COMMITTEE OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS OF FINANCE BILL
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Question put.
Declaration(s) of Vote:
Mr M J FIGG: The DA cannot support the Finance Bill because we do not support unauthorised expenditure. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the authorisation of unauthorised expenditure of R2,9 billion from the financial years starting from 2006 to 2013. The authorised expenditure was incurred by the departments of Home Affairs, R1,088 billion, Transport, R1,816 billion and Water Affairs, R3,78 million. While provision for authorisation of unauthorised expenditure is made in the Public Finance Management Act we cannot condone the overspending while the country is faced with poverty, unemployment and inequality. People out there are suffering and these departments see it fit to spend money they do not have.
Included in the overspending by Home Affairs is the payment of outstanding claims for expenditure to foreign missions, the payment of consultancy services, security services, legal fees and leases for office accommodation. The overspending for Transport included bus subsidies. In the Auditor-General‘s latest consolidated audit outcomes for the 2015-16 financial year, Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, was recorded as having incurred close to R14 billion in irregular expenditure as a result of significant noncompliance with its own supply chain management policy and legislation.
The Department of Water and Sanitation is in crisis. Projects have been delayed raising concerns about how our country will manage our water supply. Our country is experiencing drought but this department continues to spend large amounts of money for wasteful and irregular expenditure every year due to poorly performing contractors causing extended contract periods and increase costs. Late payment of contractors results in projects delays and poor project planning.
The Bill makes provision for unauthorised expenditure to be recovered from responsible officials or former officials, but this government has no respect for the law. How much money has been recovered so far? Nothing has been recovered. We cannot support the Bill.
Ms E N LOUW: Hon Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Finance Bill. We do so because the ANC‘s looting of our tax money does not only undermine our efforts to deliver much needed service to millions of our people but also because the ANC continues to undermine government institutions. It undermines the legislation such as the Public Finance Management Act that is supposed to safeguard our money.
Officials are using the Public Finance Management Act as a toilet paper and undermine the Constitution of our country‘s stability and democracy. It undermines efforts to buy the constitutional institutions such as the Public Protector, the Auditor-General who are supposed to support our democracy. We will be failing in our duty if we do not object this Bill and expose how the ANC have degenerated to a bunch of thieves.
A Bill that seeks to simply wish away almost R3 billion of unauthorised expenditure as mismanagement, corruption and waste of our money did not happen, particularly when one consider that in 2005 unauthorised expenditure was just over 50 billion but within five years the amount has skyrocketed to well over
R3 billion. Our people do not have water, electricity, housing, roads, schools, toilets, jobs and dignity.
It is for this reason and our obligation to millions who trusted us to represent them in Parliament that we reject the Finance Bill. There is no consequence management in departments and the directors-general do not sign the performance agreements. That is why we are rejecting this Bill. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the IFP has said it before and you also said it again, that the failure to plan is planning to
fail. We are in this situation now simply for that very reason that the planning processes and failure to adhere to the annual performance plans, APPs, and the Public Finance Management Act and other National Treasury regulations is absent - and mostly at worst is the fact that there is a lack of consequence management, particularly for transgressions. We would want to say that whilst on one hand this expenditure which was unauthorised, the fact that it delivered on quite a number of essential services may be applauded but we cannot approve two wrongs to make a right. For example to say that just because it did good, it is okay for it to be unauthorised.
I think this need to invoke in all of us the spirit to ensure that we adhere to stricter financial controls and stricter financial practices and ensure that there is a new discipline in terms of financial management and that where consequences are due, they must be meted out. The IFP expects that the Auditor- General continues to do the good work of calling out the shortcomings and we expect that. We hold those people accountable – who have been found wanting.
The other issue which is of great concern is that some of the expenditure which must be authorised dates as far back as 2004 and that speak to parliamentary processes moving very slowly in
dealing with these matters and then almost eight years later, the taxpayer is now confronted with the huge goal - all at one go, to actually sort out these things.
I think that we need to improve the parliamentary machinery in terms of how these issues are taken care of so that we do not burden the taxpayer with unfortunate situation where this money is spent at once. There is a need for us to look at the system in its entirety to ensure that it works smarter and better for the sake of ensuring that we ... [Time expired.] Thanks.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the NFP accepts that regular adjustments have to be made to authorise previously unauthorised expenditure. Indeed, it is necessary accounting exercise to give an accurate reflection on the balance sheet of the state. However, in as much as we accept the necessity of such adjustments, we also have to ask serious question about why it was unauthorised and/or why underspending occur at all.
Our view is that if state departments entities and institutions manage the finances in accordance with the prescribed processes, these incidences of unauthorised or overspending or underspending will be drastically reduced. The fact that there is inefficient action taken against those who are responsible
for such irregular, underspending and overspending and the fact that Parliament is called upon to authorise such irregular spending means that individuals will continue to mismanage the funds of the state.
We know that section 3 of the Bill provides that this Act does not defer or limit any power or duty to take appropriate steps to recover unauthorised expenditure from a responsible official or formal official. This provision is encouraging on paper but are we seeing enough steps to recover unauthorised expenditure? Are we seeing enough disciplinary action taken against responsible individuals? The answer is no. Every year we see damning reports by the Auditor-General when we interrogate the reports. Every year the portfolio committee request state departments to act upon the recommendations of the Auditor- General but nothing happens and next year we will be going through the whole exercise again.
The NFP suggests that perhaps the time has come to expend the powers of the Auditor-General to act against individuals responsible for unauthorised, irregular and wasteful and fruitless expenditure because state departments seem reluctant to take the necessary steps. We need to clean up the financial management of our state departments so that we can give effect
to our constitutional demand of transparent and accountable governance. The NFP will support this Bill. [Time expired.] I thank you.
Mr N E GCWABAZA: Hon Deputy Speaker, as the ANC we submit that the expenditure took place in a manner that gave delivered services to our people on all of this unauthorised expenditures that we are to approve here today. On the basis of that, therefore, we would like to support the Finance Bill. However, we agree that unauthorised expenditure and wasteful expenditure should be avoided through proper planning, proper implementation and accountability.
We also recognise that there is no record that suggests that through these unauthorised expenditures, there were cases of fraud or corruption. We are convinced that these expenditures were done in good faith albeit not authorised. Therefore we support the Finance Bill. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, all of the speakers have been referring to the Finance Bill. In fact, they were talking about the report. It is the report that was on the table. We will assume that your remarks meant the report and that‘s the
question before the House that the report be adopted. Are there any objections? [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, we are dealing with item three as far as I know.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry, with what? We are dealing with the report?
Mr M WATERS: Item three.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Chief Whip requested that the report be adopted. That is what we were debating. We are going to that fourth report, hon Waters. [Interjections.] Yes, we are going there now. That is the next item. The question to you is whether you accept that the report be adopted. Is that okay? Hon member, the Chief Whip moved that the report be adopted. That‘s in your
... [Interjections.] Give me that thing ...
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker if I may add the second item ... [Interjections.] ... and that‘s the third report on the Rules Committee in the National Assembly. We have done that. We have now moved to the third item which is the first reading debate in the Finance Bill. [Interjections.]
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
FINANCE BILL
(First Reading debate)
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As there is no list of speakers, are there any objections to the Finance Bill being read a first time?
There is an indication of this. What do you rise on, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, the Order that has just been read says ?Second Reading debate?. Why is it written as a debate when there is no list of speakers?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ?First Reading debate?.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Alright, that is fine, but why doesn‘t it have a list of speakers? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! The member‘s question has been clarified. Alright. Take your seat. Order, hon members! There being no objections ...
Mr M WATERS: Yes, we object.
Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, please note the objection of the DA.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We call for a division.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will note the objection of the DA.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are dividing everything today. All the budgets are divided today. We are moving it to tomorrow.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, you are in the House. Speak only when you are allowed to speak.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Will you allow me to speak?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What do you want to say?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are calling for a division on the First Reading debate.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 201: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Capa, R N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Esterhuizen, J A; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jafta, S M; Jeffery, J H; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe,
G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Mahumapelo, J M K; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, M C; Manana, D P; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V
G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 86: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van
Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a first time.
FINANCE BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
FINANCIAL SECTOR REGULATION BILL
(Consideration of Report of the Standing Committee on Finance)
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, when do we call for a division: now or after the debate?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you asking, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: When do we call for divisions? Do we call for a division now or after the debate?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we now know that the ayes have it. What do you want to say to us?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I want to call for a division.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I ask: Are you putting the report, or are you calling for a reading of the debate?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let me repeat this process so that you hear me again. [Interjections.] Hon members, the
question before the House is that the consideration of the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the Financial Sector Regulation Bill be adopted. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You said the Bill.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that clear, hon members? Don‘t tell me what I said.
An HON MEMBER: But you did!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have just said this now. Are you alright with this now? If you are happy, register your approval by pressing the ?yes? button. Have those against also indicated their preference? Those who abstained would have done so.
Hon members, all that happened was clarity on what you were doing, and we have offered that. Now, let‘s get the results of the outcome of your registration of your preference.
AYES - 272: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman,
F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Capa, R N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini- Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Esterhuizen, J A; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jafta, S M; Jeffery, J H; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Mahumapelo, J M
K; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, M C; Manana, D P; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni- Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C;
Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 14: Dlamini, M M; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Marais, S J F; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
FINANCIAL SECTOR REGULATION BILL
(Second Reading Debate)
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, the piece of legislation before us today was as a result of long engagements with the financial sector and all important stakeholders, including Cosatu and the Banking Association South Africa. [Interjections.] Both the Standing Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance went on study tours around the world to look at the different models of financial sector regulation, referred to here as the Twin Peaks legislation.
The main objective of the tabling of the Twin Peaks Bill is to ensure, and not limited to, the provision of financial and economic stability in South Africa. [Interjections.]
The global financial crisis has prompted countries to relook their financial sector laws and South Africa is no exception. We have undertaken to do so within the domestic framework and have taken into account the fact that we are a developmental state.
We have also taken note that the South African economic growth is still at the expense of the poor majority, who are being
taken advantage of by big businesses and they use that for profit maximisation.
We have also taken stock of the fact that the South African financial sector has an important role to play in economic growth, job creation and sustainable development. However, having said this, the key priorities of the South African government have always been consumer protection. Therefore, this legislation‘s key primary objectives will be to regulate market conduct and to protect consumers. [Interjections.]
In South Africa, we need to look at how firms treat their customers through fees and charges and in the same vein; governments need to observe the operations of the banking sector to avert disasters. These systematically important financial institutions, which we refer to here as Sifis, need to remain solvent with liquidity, at all times.
We should also keep a watchful eye on crime and corruption by dealing with money laundering and white-color crime. We also address fragmentation in the regulatory framework by promoting a sound financial framework, to avoid market failure. The committee then recommended a subcommittee on transformation of the financial sector as well as financial inclusion.
The committee looked at issues of access, but above all, the model will close the gab between regulatory bodies, and the Bill will establish two regulatory bodies, namely the provincial authority and market conduct authority. This will exist within the Reserve Bank and the market conduct authority will look at the conduct of insurance companies and conglomerates in terms of how they sell products.
The second authority will be responsible for protecting consumers against financial firms and services, bringing about integrity and efficiency in the financial markets and providing consumer education on products and services. [Interjections.]
The Bill also looked at significant ownership of conglomerates
... [Interjections.] Hon Chairperson, David Maynier is very problematic. Hon Deputy Speaker, it is not fair what David is doing to me today. [Interjections.]
The Bill also looked at significant ownership of conglomerates, listed companies, deposit-taking institutions and insurance companies will also be looked at. Therefore, the law will ensure that significant owners have sufficient funds to ensure that the sifi remains stable and does not fail.
The Bill will be aligned with the Insolvency Act and this will ensure that South Africa complies with international best practice. Having said this, there will better co-ordination and co-operation between financial sector regulators, which will take place through the Council of Financial Regulators, the Financial Stability Oversight Council, the Financial Sector Contingency Forum and the Interministerial Committee.
Moving forward, the regulations will ensure that the financial customer is protected in a balanced manner, that economic growth is realised and regulated ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order! Hon Maynier would not like this to happen to him. Just be orderly. [Interjections.] Order!
Ms T V TOBIAS: The regulations will be able to identify and manage risks in advance. We will be more careful and avert situations related to the Fidentia scandal and greater competition in the banking sector will also be realised.
Customers will experience lower costs and better access to financial services.
The 2008 Lehman Brothers‘ insolvency should not have happened. Again, when you look closer to home, the African Bank crisis will be averted. Amongst others, co-ordination will therefore, at all times, look at supervision.
This model will also usher in a new Financial Conduct Authority, FCA, and the Financial Services Board will cease to exist. I repeat, the Financial Services Board will cease to exist. The Financial Services Tribunal will hold the regulators accountable through clear policies and administrative action, and enforcement will take place. As part of remedial action, the tribunal will take matters to reviews.
We will also see the establishment of the Ombudsperson and the council as a body that will integrate ombud schemes as an external dispute mechanism. This will act as an adversary body to the relevant jurisdictions.
Having conducted such a rigorous consultation process through National Treasury, the committee and public hearings, the implementation of the legislation will be through a phased-in approach. Phase 1 will focus on who regulates and Phase 2 will focus on how regulations will regulate in principle.
This leads to financial service providers being properly licensed and there will be transparency. Each regulatory body and supervisory body will function in a perfect and integrated manner.
These reforms will be of universal applicability and it will be comprehensive. Ministers should enforce legislation and market conduct must be highly supervised for the promotion of confidence in the system. Funding for regulation should take place.
Since I don‘t have time, let me take this opportunity to thank the team from National Treasury, especially Ismail Momoniat, Roy Haverman and Adv Jenkins for the hard work, in order for us to produce this Bill today. The African National Congress supports the Bill. I thank you.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, the Financial Sector Regulation Bill, known to its friends as the Twin Peaks Bill, and known to its enemies as the Death Bill is a monster, comprising of 279 pages, 305 clauses and consumed nearly 250 hours of work over a period of a year by the Standing Committee on Finance.
The Bill we have heard in a final act of defiance literally broke the printing press as the final version was printed for Parliament.
So, I am sure that I speak for the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance, Yunus Carrim and many members of the committee when I say that when we finally completed work on the Bill, we felt like going on our knees and crying, free, free, and free at last.
We have a world-class financial sector which is growing and is creating jobs in South Africa. We should be focused on growing the financial sector rather than bashing the financial sector.
But we also have to ensure that the financial sector is properly regulated in South Africa. That is why we lead the charge to crowbar the Myburg Commission report out of the SA Reserve Bank following the collapse of the African Bank.
That is why we led the charge to ensure that the Myburg Commission report was provided to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, by the SA Reserve Bank following the collapse of the African Bank. That is why my colleague and friend, the hon
Geordin Hill-lewis has led the charge to seek justice for the victims of reckless lending by African Bank.
If you remain unconvinced, then consider the fate of Joyce Dayimani, who entrusted her savings to Arthur Brown of the Fidentia Group and lost everything and who now cannot afford a decent tombstone for her son who was so desperate as a result of the loss of the family‘s pension that he committed suicide.
This Bill, Deputy Speaker, provides for a major overhaul of the regulation of the financial sector in South Africa. It essentially provides for the establishment of two new regulators, including a new Prudential Authority responsible for the regulation of the soundness of firms and a new Market Conduct Authority responsible for the regulation of the conduct of firms.
The Bill is the first in a number of pieces of legislation that will be tabled over the next five years, including the Insurance Bill, the Conduct of Financial Institutions Bill and the Financial Markets Bill.
We proposed seventeen amendments to this Bill and we are delighted that some of the amendments, particularly the
amendments to Clause 86, Clause 273 and Clause 274 were adopted by the Standing Committee on Finance.
These amendments went a long way to fixing the clauses in the Bill, which we thought had a very strong whiff of Pyongyang. However, we have reservations about this Bill, which we hope can still be fixed in the National Council of Provinces.
Our reservations include constitutionality. On 30 November, 2016, shortly before voting on the Bill, President Jacob Zuma referred the Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill back to the National Assembly in terms of section 79(1) of the Constitution because of reservations about the constitutionality of Clause 45(1C), which provides for warrantless searches.
As a result, the committee applied its mind to similar provisions contained in this Bill and at the last minute agreed to amend Clause 137 to narrow the scope and clarify the purpose of warrantless searches.
The committee received the assurance of the Senior Parliamentary Legal Advisor, that following the amendment of Clause 137, the Bill was constitutional.
But in the absence of a formal legal opinion and in the absence of a legal opinion on a similar clause in the Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill, an element of doubt has now arisen as to whether this Bill is constitutional.
Our reservations also include co-ordination. The National Credit Regulator, which falls under the Department of Trade and Industry and is responsible for the regulation of the credit industry, will not fall under the Financial Sector Conduct Authority.
The only reason informally provided by officials from the Department of Trade and Industry and from representatives of the National Credit Regulator was that a political decision had been taken.
The effect of this decision not to include the National Credit Regulator under the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, which is evidently the result of a turf war pure and simple, will be to render the Financial Sector Conduct Authority more or less toothless when it comes to the credit industry and it will compromise an important objective of the Bill, which is to improve the co-ordination of financial sector regulators in South Africa.
The Bill, without the National Credit Regulator firmly tucked under the Financial Sector Conduct Authority is not a twin peaks Bill; it is a one peak and a molehill Bill.
Finally, our reservations include excessive cost. An impact study was conducted and found that the total cost of implementing this Bill would be approximately R1,03 billion, including inter alia; the Prudential Authority, which will cost R341 million and the Financial Conduct Authority, which will cost R611 million.
This excludes the transitional costs, which are estimated to be about R150 million per year for two years and would be clawed back through a special levy following the introduction of the Financial Sector Levies Bill, in 2016.
The concern here is not only that costs are excessive, but that they will be passed on to customers, which will compromise another important objective of this Bill, which is financial inclusion.
We therefore cannot support the Financial Sector Regulation Bill and hope that some of these defects will be fixed in the National Council of Provinces.
We accept that there is still much work to be done, but for now we are finally free, free, and free at last from the Financial Sector Regulation Bill. I thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, this Bill – which is called the twin peaks Bill - is a financial regulatory Bill or law, that is primarily supposed to introduce two regulatory institutions: a prudential regulatory authority, PRA, which will be located in the Reserve Bank, and the financial services conduct authority that will operate relatively independently and be responsible for market conduct of financial institutions.
The prudential regulation authority is going to be responsible for the insurance industry, the big banks and the so-called financial conglomerates or the so-called systematically important financial institutions whose collapse can collapse the entire economy.
In light of the 2008 financial crisis, this Bill is supposed to respond to the conduct of all financial institutions. But it is not twin peak because there are other institutions which should necessarily continue to exist, such as the National Credit Regulator, NCR, and the Financial Intelligence Centre.
Throughout this process, in which the EFF participated much more intimately, we always raised the importance of the Financial Intelligence Centre and the importance of dealing with financial crimes. Even when we went on the oversight visit to the UK, and were in the bank of England, and met the banking association of England and met all the institutions there, the key highlight for us was, how do you deal with financial crimes? Because South Africa is defined by a lot of financial crimes such as money laundering, tax avoidance and elicit financial flows. We said that any regulatory environment and legislation that is proposed, should fundamentally deal with that aspect.
Now, just before the Bill was finalised, the President of the ANC brought back the Financial Intelligence Centre Act which, to some extent, was going to deal with financial crimes. This is against the fact ... I heard Cosatu said you must be a President
... Deputy President, you must listen carefully to this. [Laughter.]
In May, the parliamentary majority of the ANC passed the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill. In October, the secretary- general of the ANC spoke on behalf of the National Executive Committee and said that the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill must be signed into law or South Africa will be punished by the
world markets. So, you have the parliamentary majority of the ANC saying that the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill must be signed into law. And you must remember that this Financial Intelligence Centre Bill is critical for this Bill that we are approving today. The secretary-general on behalf of the National Executive Committee of the ANC says that it must be made law.
But then, the platforms that are associated with Saxonworld, the so-called Decolonisation Foundation and the New Age writes editorials to say that the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill must not be made into law. And six months later, just before Parliament closes, a President who is supposed to be your President brings that Bill back here for us to entertain. It frustrates the Financial Services Regulation Bill. It frustrates the efforts that had to be put in place to fight financial crimes. What kind of logic is that? What kind of thinking is happening? You must realise that it is a planned syndicate platform and mechanism to frustrate efforts to fight financial crimes here in South Africa. Because the President and whoever he is working with are party to the financial crimes that are happening in South Africa.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: This is the reality of the matter that we have to deal with. The EFF does not agree ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... with what the Financial Sector Regulations Bill as proposed because we think that it is toothless.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your remarks are ... [Inaudible.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is not helping us to move forward in terms of how we deal with some of these issues. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will return to your remarks.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, while the IFP welcomes and supports the objects of the Bill, namely the achievement of a financial system that not only works in the interests of financial customers, but also supports balanced and sustainable economic growth in our country through the establishment of a regulatory and supervisory framework promoting financial stability, safety, fairness, efficacy, confidence and prevention
of financial crime, we remain concerned with regard to the following.
Reckless spending through reckless lending remains a critical concern in South Africa, particularly post-2008. In most instances, this is because banks grant credit on the basis of the credit applicant understating their expenses and, on the other hand, the credit provider in effect giving credit to an individual who clearly does not have the means to affordably repay the same.
This situation is, of course, not assisted by moving the National Credit Regulator, NCR, out of the financial regulatory framework. Whereas it was, before, governed by market conduct regulation, it will, under this Bill, find itself outside of the framework.
More worrisome is the ongoing debate – and might I say turf war, fight, and childish kindergarten spat – between the DTI and National Treasury regarding the role of the NCR as well as its positioning.
We support the view that there should be only one market conduct for financial services as this will ensure consistency of
standards in terms of licensing, disclosure, consumer recourse and the like.
Another inclusion might be that of the medical aid schemes, as there are also not addressed in terms of the twin peaks model despite being financially underwritten by financial conglomerates.
There are many critics of this Bill. It is sometimes referred to as the twin daggers and not the twin peaks Bill. It goes without saying then that it can become a double-edged sword if its challenges are not mitigated against.
The IFP wants to stress that this Bill must not lead to the creation of an economy-stifling bureaucracy, unnecessary red tape, multiplication of staff and regulators as this will only stifle our economy. It must not stifle innovation or destroy jobs. In essence, what the IFP is saying is that this Bill must not become anti transformation.
In conclusion and subject to the above concerns, this Bill is supported. The main thrust being in order to make financial markets safer for our consumers. So, we do believe that whilst these innovations and the concerns are there let us not throw
the baby out with the bath water. Let us use this as a building block to ensure that we arrive at a healthier and conducive environment for financial regulation. Of course moving forward we must be mindful of the cost that is involved, but let start at the very least agree at the principle and move forward to avoid the repeat of 2008. I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, allow me on behalf of the NFP to start off by extending our condolences to the wife, family and friends of Sifiso Ncwane, a renowned gospel singer who died of kidney failure. He was quite a distinguished and talented artist.
The NFP welcomes the Financial Sector Regulation Bill tabled here today. We believe that the major concerns raised during the public consultation period in respect of the previous tabled version has been adequately addressed to pave the way for adoption of this very important Bill which is aimed at increasing protection of South African consumers and regulate market conduct, while at the same time creating a more stable financial system. The Bill has been in the making for a considerable time and once enacted, will completely change the landscape of financial control in the South African economy.
Despite the introduction of stringent Financial Intelligence Centre Act, reckless lending continues to haunt millions of South Africans who are drowning in debt.
The NFP took note of concerns expressed that the Bill created the potential for abuse by the Statutory Authorities created by this legislation. Concerns focussed largely on the powers of the Prudential Authority and the Market Conduct Authority. We do not agree with these reservations because we believe that the Bill contains more than enough checks and balances to prevent abuse by any authority.
One of those checks and balances which we are particularly happy about is establishment of a Financial Services Tribunal as provided for in clause 214. In terms of these provisions, the function of the tribunal is to hear and decide appeals by persons aggrieved by a decision of a decision-maker in terms of a financial sector law. What is most impressive is the requirement that the tribunal members must include at least two persons who are retired judges or are persons with suitable expertise and experience in law and at least two other persons with experience or expert knowledge of financial products, financial services, financial instruments, market infrastructures or the financial system. By setting out high
standards and criteria such as these, the NFP believes that the tribunal will be well equipped to discharge its mandate and provide a very necessary service within the financial sector.
In conclusion, the NFP is of the opinion that the Bill on the whole is a step in the right direction and aligns South Africa with many leading economies in the world. Whilst financial institutions may be wary of a changing regulatory environment, a more harmonised and a certain regulatory landscape has to benefit all parties. The NFP supports this Bill. [Time expired.]
Mr N L S KWNAKWA: House Chair, hon Maynier said that he is very happy that we are done with this Financial Sector Regulation Bill, and he made me remember the song: If you‘re happy clap your hands, clap your hands, clap your hands.
The implementation of the Financial Sector Regulation Bill is to establish two regulatory entities, which are the following: Firstly, the prudential authority within the Reserve Bank, the purpose of which is to ensure that there is safety and soundness of banks, insurances and financial institutions, while on the other hand, the market conduct authority is to protect the customers‘ financial services.
This is a necessary step, rather, given the complexity and the increasing levels of complexity of operations of financial services industry as a whole, more in particular and importantly, in the fight against financial crimes. However, as was the case with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Fiserv and other laws that regulate the financial service industry, there is a strong possibility that the financial institutions are going to pass the cost of implementing the Twin Peaks Bill to customers.
Who can forget the huge administration fees that have become the order of the day in the financial service industry, because of the laws that were passed in the past to regulate it? In this regard, we have to ensure that the Financial Sector Authority does indeed supervise the financial institutions more intensely. However, whenever we pass laws or take the initiatives, we always make this point and then forget about it.
Who can forget, for instance, Mzansi account with a lot of fanfare when it was introduced a number of years ago? The purpose of that account was, obviously, to serve the poor and to ensure market access to the poor in the financial service industry. But none of us has actually gone back to check as to whether that account is still affordable. I happen to check it
last year, and I found out that it has actually become one of the most expensive accounts for people to operate.
Now, the masses have actually decided to leave it and returned to the traditional accounts like savings and other accounts because of how expensive it is and the restrictions that are put in place on this account. Obviously, the principle is about making sure that there is vigilance.
The other very important issue that we must consider is about the complaints, especially from some of the role-players within the financial service industry, that the financial service‘s board which has now ceased to exist or will cease to exist because of the current process in the Bill, had gotten to a point where it had become a law unto itself.
When we put the measures to try to regulate, control and improve market conduct of financial services, we need to consider and check the powers of the institutions that oversee the financial service industry so that they don‘t become a law unto themselves, or repeat the mistakes that were made by the institutions that we are trying to discontinue and to replace.
The UDM supports the Bill. Siyabulela! [We thank you!]
Ms P S KEKANA: House Chair and the hon members of this House, this is one of the most important Bills to be considered by this House, and the ANC supports it. But just the quick one Chair, I want to remind hon Shivambu that he missed an opportunity last week when we were looking at the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, but there is still another opportunity earlier next year, to look at the unconstitutional element that the Presidency has raised in that Financial Intelligence Centre Act.
There have been some colossal failures in the financial services sector, both within our shores and abroad. Who could forget the Fidentia Scandal of J Arthur Brown, who lavishly spent over
R500 million of the savings of 47,000 widows and orphans? The recent Panama Papers have shown that some of this money was stashed in the offshore tax havens. Recently, we had the African Bank placed under curatorship. In 2008, the so-called Global Financial crisis ensued, triggered by the insolvency of Lehman Brothers and affecting many countries.
There are many other examples of how the markets have failed, spurred by greed of the market players who seek to make profits at all costs. Private markets are based on a goal of maximising profits, sometimes by hook or by crook. Left to their own devices, they almost always fail to self-correct and to maximise
social welfare. They hardly volunteer to do well. They need to be whipped into line through regulation.
The primary focus of the Twin Peaks Bill is to regulate the financial sector in order to prevent market failure and protect financial customers. It is the failure of markets that South Africans are faced with high transaction costs because of high fees for services and products by our financial sector. The Competition Commission‘s Banking Enquiry, led by Judge Thabani Jali, reported in 2008 that there were high levels of concentration and an oligopoly market structure which hindered competition in the banking sector in South Africa.
We have had and still have an oligopoly of the big four banks which controls more than 90% of the assets and market. Besides the entry of Capitec Bank, there have been no significant green- fields operations into the retail banking sector in South Africa. This is not only a big concern for competition, but also for transformation. It reminds us that preventing market failure cannot be the only reason for regulating our financial services, but also transformation and achieving the collective aspirations and desires of the majority of our society.
The collective aspirations and desires of this majority, as espoused by the ANC, are to achieve a better life for all South Africans. It is not good enough that the South African financial sector is rated among the best in the world, yet the majority of society does not enjoy its sophistication. Only a minority do so as it was in the apartheid days. We, in the ANC, believe that we need to also regulate for transformation to take place within the financial sector.
As a developing country, there are a lot of past deeds that need to be corrected. We have learnt that transformation will not occur and cannot be outsourced to the goodwill of the markets.
It will take place as a result of a deliberate and, sometimes, an intrusive government intervention. That is why we are making sure that transformation forms part of the Twin Peaks Bill. It forms part of the objectives of the Bill.
We also inserted a provision for the establishment of a working group or subcommittee on transformation into clause 81 of the Bill. Working together with the Financial Sector Council, we want this working group or subcommittee to draw up and implement an action plan on transformation in the financial sector. The Standing Committee on Finance will monitor very closely the work
of this working group. South Africans need more new local financial sector players to ensure competition.
While we understand the Reserve Bank‘s policy on four pillars in the banking sector, we also need it to ensure that there are no barriers to entry and the high entry requirements of capital adequacy and liquidity are relaxed to facilitate an entry of new players and more competition. We would also like to see women playing a more meaningful role in the sector.
Bomme, ke nako ya go baakanya gore re nne le banka ya basadi. [Women, it is now time to have a women‘s bank.]
We understand the need to comply with the global financial regulatory standards such as Basel and others. However, these standards must be flexible to the imperatives of our own economic development. They should not be implemented at all costs, even when they hinder transformation and financial inclusion. They should be designed to suit our needs as a developing country.
We know that in our country the financial sector had failed dismally to extend basic financial services to the majority of South Africans. It took a campaign from the government and
social movements, including the SACP to bring the financial sector to the table to develop the Financial Sector Charter at Nedlac in 2002. Hon Carrim can attest to that and I hope that this noble cause is still on track from the SACP‘s side.
This campaign demanded that financial institutions should stop the discriminatory redlining practices. With the implementation of this Bill, we would like to see more financial inclusion and access to formal financial services for the majority of South Africans and small and medium enterprises. Next year we plan to organise public hearings with the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the implementation of the Financial Sector Charter.
The Twin Peaks Bill also provides for greater protection for financial customers through financial education and literacy. It is crucial to empower financial customers to make the right decisions about the products and services they consume. The ANC supports this Bill. Thank you. [Applause] [Time expired.]
Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, I think Mr Swart should apologise to the Whip here who is complaining that I‘m not there when I‘m supposed to be there, yet Mr Swart is not here when he is supposed to be here. So, on his behalf I apologise to you.
Having said that, we have explained ... In fact, Mr Maynier for once showed some grace. It‘s very rare of him. It makes my response here very boring. However, there are things that, needless to say, he has to be controversial about because it‘s in his deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA.
Let me start by saying that we spent over 200 hours on this Bill. Mr Maynier himself says that. He also says that he is relieved of the Bill, yet on the other hand he says, you know what, there‘s so much more work to be done. Now really; actually there‘s a flagrant contradiction in that. He himself admitted that we have come to the end as it were. Also, needless to say, he makes a whole lot of claims, as he must do. I don‘t know what he‘s aspiring to. It‘s the end of the year and its Christmas cheer, and does somebody really care?
Actually, the DA made some useful and very practical comments on the Bill. Rarely, not as usual ... [Inaudible.] ... said that.
Actually, they were quite trivial but helpful. As far as the policy issues go, one, just one in a Bill running into
279 pages. They proposed that we should have much more independent evaluation of the co-operation amongst entities and so on, because this Bill will not work.
With regard to the Twin Peaks model, Mr Shivambu reminds us ad nauseam, as if we haven‘t agreed to that, that it‘s not really Twin Peaks but it‘s used as a sort of short hand. From day one all of us accept that it isn‘t quite Twin Peaks.
Nevertheless, the point is that there was one useful contribution in approximately 200 hours. Wow, that‘s a huge contribution. Mr Maynier, I hope they promote you to whatever it is you are seeking to be promoted to within the DA. However, it was a useful comment and contribution, and we accepted it. You did make some useful comments but nowhere near what you are claiming. Nevertheless ... fine, if that makes you and your Chief Whip happy, fine it is.
In fact, let‘s also say that there is very little ... very little that we did not discuss about the co-ordination. Now, one of the key aspects of this Bill is also the cost. Actually, it was the ANC ... it was the ANC that raised this on day one. We know exactly ... After all, it‘s us who primarily represent the poor and the disadvantaged. It is us who said, what will be the cost for the poor? The business community always passes on any wage increases to the consumers and the very workers that are supposed to benefit from those wage increases. So, eclipsing the
wage increase they got but they have to bear the cost after having been conceded to on the wage increase.
Similarly, here we said it‘s the financial customers that will bear the costs of what the banks have to pay for implementing the new model. It‘s we the ANC that raised it. It‘s a key part of our report. If you care to you can look at it. If I‘m correct it was published in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Report, ATC, last Thursday.
Also, we in the ANC demanded from National Treasury — and let‘s admit all parties — what will be the cost of implementing it. If you look at the report, as I‘ve just managed to do yet again a moment ago, on pages seven and eight there is an entire set of graphs which spell out the costs. What emerged very, very clearly is that if we don‘t implement this model, the cost to the financial customers and disproportionately the poor and low- income earners would be far, far greater.
The DA, and Mr Maynier in particular, was actually unable to contest this when the National Treasury presented these arguments, and so it is that we have said that we must do many other things to ensure that the financial customers and the poor in particular do not bear an undue cost for this model.
For example, we have said that it‘s fine to have all these rules and rights for the financial customer but what if they don‘t know about it? So we tightened the role of the ombudsperson and we put various other provisions. For example, the Financial Sector Conduct Authority is now required to spend far more of its energy on doing exactly that – ensuring financial literacy and education for the customer.
With regard to the constitutionality that Mr Maynier refers to, yes indeed we did look at it. We did get legal advice. In fact, we have said that this is not the final outcome on that. Indeed, we have said in our report that the NCOP — while this is a section 75 Bill — must pay considered attention to this Bill.
They must look at this Bill as if they are looking at it for the first time in Parliament ... that the NA hasn‘t spent so many hours ... and we want fresh minds to come with new ideas. Even if we had spent another 20 or 40 hours on this Bill it would not have made substantial difference. We have exhausted this Bill.
This is the best we can deliver under the circumstances and let‘s hand it over to the NCOP.
One thing we are clear about is that the NCOP — we have pleaded with Mr Charel de Beer, the chairperson — will give this Bill very considered attention, and we too on our side will not say
it‘s a section 75 Bill. The NA will not dismiss the amendments. We will look at them carefully and one of the issues we have alerted them to is precisely the provision of the constitutionality of the Bill.
I agree with some of the things that Mr Shivambu is saying; that without the Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill, part of what we have done here doesn‘t carry weight, Deputy President. We have to act against financial crime and actually we have to expedite the process. We have agreed to do so. In fact, we start tomorrow.
These are the views we stated last week in our committee. Was Shivambu not there? These are the views of lawyers in the Presidency. Other lawyers may come to a different opinion. It doesn‘t mean that because it comes from the Presidency‘s lawyers that therefore Parliament must tremble and buckle. No, we are not going to do that. We are going to get independent legal advice and if the Presidency‘s lawyers are wrong, they are just wrong, and finally, let the Constitutional Court decide.
On the issue of dealing with illicit financial flows, we are the 10th worst country in the world. We have no doubt that this Parliament, across all parties, is going to tackle that. It is
the poor and the disadvantaged ... it is those who are low- income earners that bear the major cost. Deputy President, it‘s the mining industry in part that ... Actually, what we have discovered is that mining economies are more vulnerable to base erosion and profit shifting and are more vulnerable to illicit financial flows when elsewhere ...
Tomorrow there is a conference in London of Members of Parliament all over actually trying to set a global agenda for Members of Parliament, not governments, but Members of Parliament to play a much more active role in this regard.
On the issue of the National Credit Regulator, NCR, there are actually two opposing views. The one is Mr Maynier‘s view that it should be collapsed into the Financial Sector Conduct Authority. Then there is the view of Cosatu, the Financial Sector Campaign Coalition, the SA Communist Party, SACP, and others, who argue no, no, no, the NCR is working just fine. Let it continue.
So, we engaged with the Minister of Trade and Industry, the director-general, and in fact the NCR which was there from day one. They participated fully.
Let me say something else. It‘s not just the number of hours we spent on this Bill. As we often do with Bills, we invite the public to participate right up to the last stage, Deputy President. Before we vote on a Bill, anybody can come ...
Cosatu, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and so on. Regrettably, became the business community, and the banking and insurance sectors are very highly resourced, they were there till the day we voted on the Bill.
Comrade President ... Deputy President, the other NGOs ... when we first came to Parliament ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please address the Chair, hon Carrim.
Mr Y I CARRIM: Yes, via you. Obviously, via the Chair what I‘m saying to you, Deputy President, is that ... Let me address the Chief Whip, which I‘ve done. When we were here from 1994 we used to pay for NGOs to come here; not Cosatu which is a powerful actor, not the National Council of Trade Unions, Nactu, which is a powerful actor, and so on. We paid for people from the rural areas of Mhlumayo, Ekuvukeni or Uitval to come.
I think we must go back to that because what you find in these public hearings is that its industry, the private sector and the powerful trade unions. Where are the ordinary people? Even the NGOs that are there are the well-resourced ones. So what we had was the Association for Savings and Investment SA, Asisa, from the insurance industry and the Banking Association SA, Basa, sitting there right till we voted on the Bill.
I think what peeves Mr Maynier is that his sector ... his constituency ... his party‘s constituency were engaging with the ANC. The DA was marginal ... the private sector ... the banks
...
Let‘s start with this. The crisis we have had since 2008 was primarily caused by the greed of the bankers. It was primarily caused by the financial sector in the USA, and who‘s bearing the ultimate cost? It‘s us in this country and the developing world. Again, that‘s your faith in the private sector, even though it fails.
When we introduce a Bill to regulate them to ensure financial inclusion and to ensure financial transformation, you have problems with the Bill that you engage with for 200 hours and you yourself acknowledge you were exhausted with it. So what‘s
new ... [Inaudible.] ... got. Nothing. Thank you indeed. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINSITER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair and hon members of this House, first I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Finance, for an extraordinary effort in processing the Bill. The committee set for many, many hours, convened subcommittee hearings, examined international best practice and rigorously debated all aspects of the reform. In particular, I should applaud the Chair of the committee, Mr Yunus Carrim, for his detailed and close attention to all aspects of this Bill. His strong work ethics and his sense of humour throughout the process. All members of the committee made a substantial contribution as it is shown by the committee report on the Bill.
The financial services sector touches the life of each an every South African. It enables economic growth, job creation, the building of vital infrastructure and sustainable development for South Africa and her people. It is therefore crucial that the sector is well regulated and stable. A strong financial sector ensures resilience during periods of market volatility. In its statement on our ratings last week, Standard and Poor noted in particular the strength of the banking system, highlighting that the sector is strong and resilient.
The financial sector is also crucial for a country with low savings rate like South Africa. Our current account deficit means we must access foreign savings to finance investment. On an annual basis, we need to borrow around R150 billion to meet the fiscal deficit. This money is borrowed largely from the domestic financial sector reducing the fiscal deficit and will allow us to reduce our reliance on borrowing.
In 2011, government announced an overhaul of the financial regulatory system. This vision was set out in a document called A Safer Financial Sector to Serve South Africa Better, which became known as The Red Book. The intention was to bring to the fore the goals of market conduct, financial inclusion and combating of financial crime.
The Bill implements the Twin Peaks system. It will greatly strengthen the approach for market conduct, make it easier to understand financial products and allow us to take decisive action to protect consumers, streamlines the Ombud system to make it easier for the ordinary South African to take their financial service providers to task and to ensure that they get the best value for money.
It also must not be read in isolation, and I concur with the chair of the committee the Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill is crucial; it is part of the overall regulation of the system. Stability is not the only policy objective for the financial sector and we should not strive for the stability of the graveyard. We need a financial services sector that is growth oriented, innovative and dynamic and serves the needs of South Africans. The sector should be the servant of the real economy. It should facilitate economic growth, it should help create jobs and it should contribute to a better life for all.
The sector has grown by 4% on average over the past decade and added more than 500 000 jobs. Financial sector assets are more than three times the size of the gross domestic product, GDP. The broader sector, including insurance and real estate contribute 33% to the total companies‘ tax revenue. That said, the sector could be doing more. It is characterised by high and opaque fees, needs to be more transparent, competitive and cost- effective.
Too many South Africans fall prey to unscrupulous financial services firms. Moreover many South Africans do not have appropriate access to banking, insurance and savings products. This inhibits economic growth and keeps people trapped in
poverty. There are number of comments that have been made in the course of this debate and else where. The first relates to transformation. A sector that reflects the modern South Africa is critical to support the vision of an inclusive society.
Transformation is not just about ownership, but is also about lending. Who do the banks lend to? Do they overcharge? Do they have appropriate products for ordinary South Africans? The Bill will certainly help achieve all of these and more.
There has also been argument raised around the cost of regulation. The cost of financial regulation can be enormous and it is justified that there should be some cost related to creating an effective and efficient supervisory regime. Cost modelling by Treasury has demonstrated that direct costs to the industry are substantially minimal. Of course there would be indirect costs to firms that are forced to become more consumer focussed. We will be presenting a short money Bill later and this will set out the cost in more details and an extensive consultation for this Bill is underway.
Lastly, the poor and vulnerable groups of our society stand to benefit more from a better regulated financial system in general and in particular from the work of the Financial Sector Conduct Authority whose main purpose is to promote fair treatment of
financial customers by financial institutions. The social and economic benefits of a stable and better regulated financial system that delivers fair outcomes for the financial customers outweigh the cost of such regulations.
The other area that has been raised quite sharply relates to the inclusion or exclusion of the National Credit Regulator, NCR, which many people argue it that it should be part of the Twin Peaks system. We argued, after long and substantive discussions with many people, that including the NCR into the new conduct authority may prove too complex at this point in time. However, the Bill improves co-ordination between regulators, creating a mechanism for them to work together in a tighter way than before. The Bill carefully balances also operational independence with the role of Parliament in our regulatory system. Parliament has a critical role in providing oversights, but it should not necessarily get involved in detailed decisions and the committee has thought carefully about this issue. In addition, the Bill ensures proper accountability for directors. The wording of the clause strikes the right balance between accountability ... Thank you, very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON 2016 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, I move:
That the Report be adopted by this House.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Again Chair, I move:
That the Report be adopted by this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The motion is that the Report be adopted, are there any objections? There is an objection, I put the question. Those in favour will say aye and those against will say no. I think the ayes have it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chair, please note the objection of the DA. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The objection will be noted.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Hon Chair, please note the objection of the EFF.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The objection will be noted. The question is thus agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
DEBATE ON 2016 MEDIUM TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATIONS
(First Reading debate)
Ms Y N PHOSA: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the Bill. I repeat, the ANC supports the Bill. This debate provides an opportunity to engage on an analysis of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, and draw the linkages between the rationale for the proposed adjustments and the financing of ANC-led government policies. This Bill is a reflection of financial legislation that is in the proposals designed to: One, reverse past imbalances; and two, create a better life for all using the budget as an instrument for change.
The approach of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2016, seeks to ensure that the ANC five-year manifesto priorities and the government‘s Medium-Term Strategic Framework priorities are financed within the context of slow growth, lower revenue, rising inflation and global financial instability. The Bill speaks about the financial management strategy of the state maximising and utilising ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Phosa, hon members, there is too much noise in the House. Let us allow the speaker to be heard. Continue hon member.
Ms Y N PHOSA: Thank you, hon Chair. I was saying the Bill speaks about the financial management strategy of the state maximising and utilising available resources in the most proficient manner in order to enhance the potential of the programmes that are funded as policy priorities and address the greatest needs of our people. This financial principle is applied to each adjustment between and within votes of funds. Each adjustment is about both policy and economic choices, seeking to protect core social and economic programmes.
Whilst the Bill is set against the backdrop of fiscal consolidation as a mechanism to safeguard the National Revenue Fund and more broadly the fiscus, the Bill through its adjustments commits to sustaining the state-led infrastructure build programme, active industrial intervention and support for small and medium productive enterprises so as to ensure growth is built.
In reviewing progress in the implementation of resolutions from the ANC‘s 53rd National Conference of 2012, the 2015 national general council in addressing current economic challenges resolved, I quote:
Reprioritise the budget across all three spheres of government in order to reduce consumption expenditure, boost investment spending and raise revenues. The focus of this was in the allocation of resources and taking decisive action against waste and corruption.
Therefore, this Bill ensures through its adjustments that basic services continue to be financed, protecting the most vulnerable. The Bill reflects contextual needs and adjustments and emerging priorities in specific votes, like higher education and training and health and these are funded in many cases through reprioritisation.
The Adjustments Appropriation Bill does not repeat mistakes of many countries, who when faced with the type of domestic economic and fiscal challenges we have today, opt for shock therapy, for austerity, deep fiscal cuts and the selling off of state assets, thus weakening the state and its ability to meet the needs of its citizens. Rather this Bill continues the economic path of measured fiscal consolidation that puts in place the building blocks of economic growth for the future and this is reflected in specific Budget Votes.
The Bill must be seen as a political and financial instrument that the ANC-led government uses to ensure that its policy programmes continue to be operationalised through any adjustment in allocations across the votes. The adjustments in this Bill reflect a reallocation of financial resources to the different spheres of government, using an outcomes centred public spending approach.
South Africa‘s growth prospects remain challenging. Our growth forecast of 0,5% in 2016, is a reflection of how much we still have to do to restructure the economy. The International Monetary Fund, IMF‘s, April forecast for 2016, has been lowered to 0,6%, and the 2017, forecast has been revised sharply lower to 1,2% - previously 1,8%. Whilst it is true that growth in 2017, will be better than 2016, the weak economic conditions reflect a combination of deteriorating global and domestic factors. A lower and a changed growth direction in emerging markets, particularly China, has put further pressure on commodity prices and increased financial market volatility.
Domestically, infrastructure constraints have been a major player. Whilst business and understandably consumer confidence is down, we are pleased that the Reserve Bank has been wise in their decision not to increase borrowing costs. Investment in
the productive sectors of the economy requires the ability to access finance.
The 2016 Budget reinforced government‘s commitment to a prudent and sustainability fiscal path, and responded to new spending needs without compromising expenditure limits. What fiscal consolidation has enabled is an expenditure ceiling that has been used to manage the shift in fiscal policy since 2012.
Understandably, poor economic growth means lower government revenue. To sustain the social wage and avoid sharp reversals in public spending a proposed mix of revenue and expenditure measures in the February budget were introduced. The adjustments in this Bill are in line with this. Most importantly whilst these adjustments are in the context of a lowered spending ceiling in the two outer years of the 2016 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, but are designed to minimise the impact on frontline service delivery.
In terms of increased focus towards job creation, the Adjustment Appropriation Bill continues to commit funding towards Small and medium-sized enterprise, SME, development and in support of SMEs as critical facilitators of job creation. These adjustments are designed to provide support to programmes in the enterprise
incubator programme and design support for informal business scheme aimed at growing the informal sector.
The quantum of funding required for expanding the post school education and training sector cannot be accommodated by the budget process alone. This requires partnership with the private sector. A number of processes including the Presidential Commission of Inquiry on Higher Education, Presidential Task Team on Funding Poor Students and the missing middle, and Interdepartmental Task Team on Financing options for the post school education and training system are currently underway to determine how higher education expenditure can be sufficiently financed.
Government continues to engage the private sector in order to better understand how we can create an enabling environment for private sector to ensure support for this sector and contribute to a turnaround in our ailing economy.
The adjustments and their reprioritisation underscore a financial principle of achieving greater value for money from funds spent so that there can be greater delivery even with reduced budgets by increasing efficiency.
The Bill has the effect of also reflecting monies already spent and not just proposed adjustments. This is not uncommon ... [Interjections.] ... please listen to this one; this is not uncommon since the nature of governance requires expenditure in times of unforeseen emergency, one of the criteria of the Bill. In this regard drought relief to farmers amounting to budget to the tune of R212 million has already been spent and the Adjustments Bill has to reflect this. The drought that we have experienced was the worst in decades, especially for the provinces. This has adversely affected the agricultural sector as well as food prices which the poor largely depends on.
The resources set aside for drought relief by the national Department of Agriculture and provinces have also contributed to drought relief. Most of the funds will be mobilised from the comprehensive agricultural support programme grant and the
llima-Letsema projects grant. The same applies to the adjustment for water and sanitation. Here forward planning in respect of desalination for coastal areas is already underway.
Regarding unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure which amounts to R1,2 billion again this is on the nationally ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
Ms Y N PHOSA: ... agreed priority which includes the allocations for school rehabilitation, which is good, provision of mobile classrooms and catch up camps in basic education.
Again the Adjustment Appropriations Bill rises to the Medium- Term Strategic Framework priorities. The adjustment for Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries is to enhance work on food security and agrarian reform both critical policy matters. So, you do not want to hear the truth.
On virements therefore of shifting of funds between and within votes is a natural progression. The key consideration must be that each virement is about both policy, economic choices and there must be in compliance with the Treasury regulations Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and members facility handbook prescripts. Virement seeks to protect core social and economic programmes. In terms of this Bill the virements do not affect the service delivery targets.
Indeed, rollovers cannot be encouraged as it is a reflection on planning; the reality is that unforeseen circumstances arise in
the completion of the projects and programmes. The general view is that rollovers should be application to projects that are near completion.
Now, on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement the committee held public hearings on the 2016 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, is reflective of strategic management, economically and politically, of the policy choices that need to be made to deliver the priorities of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework and keeping the National Development Plan long term targets on course.
The financing of the policy choices reflected in the MTBPS is underpinned by the ANC government commitment to social and economic transformation.
The MTBPS reflects the financial resources of the state are being applied in a manner that reflects - listen to this one - commitment to economic sustainability, economic stability and certainty. What the MTBPS also reflects is that there will be no unmanageable debt. How debt is being managed is fundamental to the sustainability of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.
Growth is critical for revenue and the MTBPS indicates clearly that work on policies and regulations that have stunted growth have and in other cases are being reviewed. I am sure you are happy with that one. People‘s needs as reflected in the ANC 2014 five-year manifesto are being implemented mindful of the fact that there are no straight forward choices.
As I conclude, our national project is one. Building the nature and character of a national democratic society, one that reflects what we want for the future. This means that working together labour, business and civil society infusing our creativeness to make the economy resilient. Collaboration is necessary - also collaboration within parties on matters of this nature. Already from these collaborations we have concrete agreements to address some of our major economic challenges. We have strong economic institutions which together with the policy choices we make provide us with a more positive future. The ANC supports the budget.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, that hon member evidently thinks that she‘s speaking on a parade ground!
I would like to begin by complimenting the Minister, together with National Treasury and the SA Reserve Bank on their hard
work at successfully avoiding a sovereign credit ratings downgrade of South Africa. [Interjections.]
The fact is that, contrary to what President Jacob Zuma thinks, avoiding a sovereign credit ratings downgrade is a big deal for South Africa.
However, the fact that we avoided junk status should not allow us to lose sight of the fact that the economy is in deep trouble in South Africa. We should never forget that there are now a staggering 9 million people who do not have jobs, or who have given up looking for jobs, and who live without dignity, without independence, and without hope in South Africa.
The Minister has called on us to tighten our belts and implement cost containment measures as he struggles to maintain the expenditure ceiling.
This makes it so difficult to understand why the adjustments budget is dripping with more than R1 billion of wasteful expenditure. There is an additional R95,67 million for the leasing of aircraft for President Jacob Zuma, who now refuses to travel on his own Boeing Business Jet, Inkwazi.
And the Ministers, who are supposed to be implementing cost containment measures, are some of the biggest spenders. Members of the public will be shocked to hear that the Minister of Communication gets a new BMW at a cost of R1,065 million. The Minister of Arts and Culture gets, not one, but two new BMWs, at a cost of R1,48 million. The Minister of Public Service and Administration gets a new Ford Everest at a cost of R714 000.
The Deputy Minister in the Presidency for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation gets a brand new Audi Quattro at a cost of R971 000. [Interjections.]
Of course, the biggest surprise is the Minister of Trade and Industry who, I am sure you will agree, radiates austerity, largely because he takes fashion advice from Jeremy Corbyn, and gets, not one, but two new Toyota Fortuners, at the cost of R1,25 million and, surprisingly, manages to slip in a R200 000 donation to the Progressive Youth in Business, which looks suspiciously like a front organization for the ANC. [Interjections.]
What is so frustrating is that the economy could be doing so much better in South Africa. We are being held back because the root cause of the problem is that we have — as the Deputy President likes to say — a government at war with itself. In the
end, it is the politics that is killing the economics in South Africa.
Listen to Fitch. ?Infighting within the ANC will distract policy-makers.?
Listen to Moody‘s. ?Political infighting is impeding the government‘s ability to implement structural reforms.?
And listen to Standards and Poor. ?Political events have distracted from growth-enhancing reforms.? [Interjections.]
The most terrifying figure in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is not the 0,5% — which is the economic growth rate expected in 2016. The most terrifying number in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is the minus 2,9% — which is the change in gross fixed capital formation expected in 2016.
What this means is that the level of investment is expected to decline this year, for the first time in six years, in South Africa.
And the reason for this is that, while the private sector is investing, it is just not investing in South Africa.
To put it simply: we are killing the cows which produce the milk in South Africa.
We have to take decisive steps now to implement the structural reforms necessary to boost economic growth and create jobs.
To do so, we need the kind of leadership of the economy displayed by US President Franklin D Roosevelt, who understood that the United States required persistently bold leadership to emerge from the Great Depression. But, what we have is President Jacob Zuma, who cannot even remember the nine points of his own Nine-point Plan to boost economic growth and create jobs in South Arica.
That is why, as long as President Jacob Zuma has a job, the
9 million people who do not have a job, or have given up looking for a job, and who live without dignity, without independence, and without hope in South Africa, will never have a job.
We must all play our role and, for that reason, I will be proposing the establishment of a multiparty ad hoc committee to specifically monitor the implementation of the structural reforms necessary to boost economic growth and create jobs in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, right at the outset, I do want to say to the House that the biggest adjustment should have been given to fee-free education because students have genuine needs.
Unlike Ministers, with their luxury vehicles and luxury furniture and luxury computers that are bought for them, students have genuine needs. [Interjections.]
We stand here as the EFF to reject both the Medium-term Budget Policy Statement and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. And we will do so for as long as the principles which underpin our fiscal policy are based on neoliberal economic policies in a capitalist exploitative system.
In our country, unlike in Cuba where more than 97% of people can read and write, only those who can afford decent basic and secondary education will be able to read and write. Unlike in Cuba where higher education is free, only a few rich blacks and whites will have access to fee-free quality higher education.
This is so because the ANC-led government is antiblack, antipoor, antiwoman and children — like Mandla Mandela.
All of this is evident in the Medium-term Expenditure Framework.
And this is all done in the name of a structural adjustment program forced upon us by the rating agencies on behalf of the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank.
The Adjustments Appropriation Bill is yet another illustration of a government that is incapable of planning and is equally incompetent. A clear example is the rollover — money that departments failed to spend in the previous year — of more than R275 million for provincial roads maintenance. Yet some of these dangerous and run-down roads continue to cost our people their lives and cost the economy billions.
Another clear example is the allocation of more than
R180 million for school repairs and rehabilitation. Yet, we have mud schools and schools without toilets in rural Eastern Cape, in Limpopo and everywhere else in the country which we have known about for the past 15 years.
How can such allocations therefore be considered unforeseen and unavoidable?
What is equally concerning is the consistent disregard of the Minister of Finance‘s measures to reduce wasteful and unnecessary expenditure. Ministers continue to spend millions of
rands to buy luxury cars and fancy computers. It is ridiculous that Minister Muthambi spent over R1 million on a new X5.
It is for these reasons that the EFF rejects the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.
Go and buy your own vehicles. Stop looting government money. Divert that money to fee-free education. [Interjections.] You will talk like that because your son-in-law benefits from Amathole corruption toilets. Thank you, Chair.
Ms M C C MAJEKE: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member? What is your point of order?
Ms M C C MAJEKE: I am standing in accordance with Rule 85. If a member has got allegations, she understands very well that she needs to put a substantive motion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Louw, that is correct. If you have allegations against a certain member, you must do so by means of a substantive motion ... [Interjections.]
... and failure to do so will then render your remarks as
unparliamentary. So if you do have, as you said ... you have made certain allegations against the hon Minister, then you must do so by means of a substantive motion. Right?
I thus request you ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Which one?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You know exactly who you were pointing at and who you were referring to. I request you to withdraw that remark, please.
Ms E N LOUW: Chair, I would like you to tell me which Minister. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You pointed to the Minister of Small Business Development.
Ms E N LOUW: Which one?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Minister of Small Business Development. [Interjections.] Will you withdraw the remark, please?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But, House Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am now dealing with thìs point of order.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Afterwards, I will give you an opportunity ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There was no allegation made against the Minister of small businesses ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You ... hon member ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: She said, her children. Her child. Her child is not protected by the Rules of Parliament.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you take your seat?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you can‘t instruct our member to withdraw on an issue ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... that is given on a child of a Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are not here to protect corrupt children ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I am going to switch your mic off. I am dealing with your hon member.
Hon Louw ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But we are not here to protect corrupt children of Ministers! There‘s no Rule that says that corrupt children like Duduzane Zuma and the children of the Minister there must be protected.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat, hon member.
Hon Louw ...
Ms H O HLOPHE: But Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not recognising you, hon member. I don‘t know why you are standing.
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, can you recognise me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. I am not recognising you.
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, Chair, can you recognise me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. I am addressing the hon Louw.
Ms H O HLOPHE: But I am the Whip. I must ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I‘m addressing the hon Louw.
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, no, no! We want to defend her.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am addressing the hon Louw.
Hon Louw ...
Ms E N LOUW: Chair, I request that you refer this issue to Hansard. I am not going to withdraw corruption. We are not going to rubberstamp corruption and wasteful expenditure here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Ms E N LOUW: I request you to refer this matter to Hansard and then take a further look at what I said.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Ms E N LOUW: Because that member ... We know she seeks attention by raising points of order in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Ms E N LOUW: And she likes TV too much ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Ms E N LOUW: Hon member, I ... Hon member, you can still carry on. I‘ve requested you, hon member ... You know exactly what you were doing and who you were addressing. [Interjections.]
If that is the case, then you don‘t know what you said at the podium, hon member. [Interjections.] Then you don‘t know what you said.
Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members ...
Hon MEMBERS: Hansard!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will check and I will come back after lunch. However, may I say, hon members, that if you do make very serious allegations against another member, and reflect on their families ... [Interjections.] ... and reflect on their families that are not in this House, then, in fact, you are referring to that member. So let us refrain from doing so.
Because then it means that you are not absolutely sure of what you are saying at the podium.
The next speaker is the hon Hlengwa.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I honestly ... You can‘t make that summary. It is not according to the Rules of ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is because you are announcing a new rule which is not in the Rule Book that says that you must protect the families and children ... corrupt children and corrupt families ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The Rules protect Members of Parliament ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... not their corrupt children.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat! I am switching off your mic now. I have dealt with the matter. Take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But, it‘s wrong! You are doing it wrong.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. Take your seat. Continue, hon Hlengwa.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It‘s wrong. We are going to expose all the corrupt children of Ministers here and their proxies who continue to commit corruption.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon member, I have dealt with this matter. Are you rising on the same matter?
Mr M M DLAMINI: No, it‘s a different matter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What makes it different, hon member?
Mr M M DLAMINI: I want to raise a point of order on you. Stop threatening us by threatening to switch off these mics ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Mr M M DLAMINI: ... because we are going to come and use that mic!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That‘s not a point of order. Take your seat.
Mr M M DLAMINI: These mics are for us to do our work. We are going to come and use that mic!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat! Take your seat, hon member.
Mr M M DLAMINI: You threaten us. You think we are friends!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon member at the podium, hon Hlengwa, please continue.
Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson, on 26 October South Africa and the world focused on the Minister of Finance, Pravin Godhan as he definitely navigated the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement. The Minister had not to only juggle and balanace the country‘s computing socioeconomic priorities, but to also deal with an
unwarranted vexatious political attack on his good name at that time. The Minister was frank and honest about our current reality and it is not going to be an easy economic road ahead.
Unemployment has picked at 27% which translates into 9 million jobless people; the drought has compounded our food security dilemma; the Fees Must Fall Movement continues to challenge the status quo of our higher education sector; global uncertainty which has since 8 November become even more uncertain must be taken into account and re-assess and mitigating processes enacted. The reality is and uncertainties we continue to experience dictate that all South Africans need to step up and join hands in promoting and protecting our prospects.
The decision by Fitch ratings to affirm sobering credit rating it at BBB- and revise down its outlook to negative indicate that South African is not out of the woods and tough times lie ahead and difficult decisions await. The signs of our economy recovering and the efforts of the Minister are undermined by the power struggle to capture National Treasury, State-owned Enterprises and other key strategic economic areas through undue influence and party political factionary interference; in this regard the ANC must shape up or ship out.
The infighting within the ANC and the government is likely to over the next year and Fitch has said that this will distract policy-makers and lead to mixed messages that will lead to undermine the investment climate thereby constraining GDP growth.
Therefore, the IFP maintains the view that when these political theatrics within the ANC are at play we must call them out because the government has wolves clocked in ship skin in general and more specifically gangsters and criminals masquerading as leaders clocked in freedom fighter credentials who have stolen all that is good about freedom and democracy and replaced it with a glaring abuse of state power.
The great concert to the IFP is South Africa‘s increasing debt which currently stands at over R2 trillion, and currently generates a debt repayment of R147 billion a year. How will the country afford increasing debt services should we not be fortunate enough to avoid another review which may lead to a downgrade? The IFP believes that it would be pointless to praise the Minister for the job well-done and then carry on with our daily lives – with our everyday politicking as if these realities before us do not exist.
In conclusion, we therefore believe that right things and confidence has been restored but the real work starts now. This national priority requires the ANC to listen to other suggestions and for the opposition to criticise constructively with sound and practical alternatives. I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the NFP supports the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. At the same time, we wish to place on record our concerns. First and foremost, Parliament, through the Standing Committee on Finance is mandated to investigate and interrogate the appropriations, adjustments and Veriments. Only once the committee is satisfied that this has had insight to all relevant information and that sufficient time has been spent analysing and interrogating the information, should it decide to approve, amend or reject the appropriations.
The way we do things now falls far short of the ideal. We are operating on unrealistic time-frames rushing our oversight function and ultimately, reducing our mandate.
During the deliberations yesterday, for example, it was found that the Veriments for the purchase of furniture had been approved on the vote for the Department of international Relations and Co-operation. Upon further enquiry, it transpired
that the furniture was not for an office, as was initially reported, but household furniture designated for a Labour Attaché. [Interjections.] Chairperson, my colleague that side wants to grand stand, so let us give her that opportunity.
We also share the concern of the committee with the declared unspent funds of R1,31 billion, and government projected underspending of a further R3 billion in the 2016 adjustments. Chairperson, every rand unspent or under-spent means that government is delivering less service. We hear our communities crying out daily for basic services, often resorting to violence to get government to pay attention, yet we have these astronomic amounts in unspent or underspending in key service delivery departments, such as social development and water and sanitation. This situation does not bode well for our communities.
Hon Chairperson, the NFP wants to address the issue of unemployment in the country – and I think if we all heard the other day rainbow chicken are talking about retrenching almost 50% of its staff in KwaZulu-Natal, specifically as a result of the poultry import from the US, and the effect it is having in the local market.
Now, on the one hand we are talking of about creating jobs but here we are going to be losing a great deal of jobs. We are asking for acceleration on processes like housing. I think we have alluded about the poor quality of some of the RDP houses, but what I think we should be doing is encouraging service sites. So, people together with the banks should assist homeowners to be able to provide the owners.
In terms of land reform, I think I alluded the other day to the community of the Amandebele tribe who, for 100 years, are still waiting for their land which they are being deprived of. So, we would like to see the department accelerating the processes in terms of that and try to clear it.
In terms of free education, we think it should be a reality for those who are deserving but we need to improve at the TVET colleges in terms of the lecturers where we have heard that there were very poor and unqualified people and that is actually
... [Time expired.] The NFP will support this Bill.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, if you look at the overview of the 2016 budget adjustments, the very first says: Presidency R2,1 million for legal fees and cost, and it is under unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. Now one begins to ask
oneself a question; is it put under the correct category given the fact that everything that has to do with law and legal fee with President Zuma is both foreseeable and avoidable.
We must ask that question. [Interjections.] Yes, of course, the President not just the Presidency because then that would include the Deputy President. Andikakuboni kwiinkundla zamatyala wena Sekela Mongameli. [I haven‘t seen you in court, Deputy President].
South Africa faces a compendium of complex challenges; we are battling with excessive debt level, low economic levels, and an inflation rate that regularly bridges the upper band of the inflation targets among other things. As we already know, our debt now exceeds R2 trillion and debts service costs which still continue to be the fastest growing expenditure item for government continue to crowed out social expenditure. That said we must acknowledge that debt serves costs to some extend have been increasing at an increasing rate over past few years.
However, there are no short cuts in to taking our economy out of this quagmire. We need inclusive growth which will come from sound policies – policy to a certainty and good leadership that creates a climate that is conducive for market role-players to
flourish. In order to manage our runaway debts steps should be taken to ensure that SOEs do not willy-nilly receive bailouts.
For instance, we have in many instances seen where SOEs continue to be given bailouts even though financially they are not in a good standing. However, they and must not be allowed to do so willy-nilly as this increases our contingent liabilities and exposes our country to a lot of risks.
In fact, recently a Parliamentary Budget Officer, PBO report showed that our GDP ratio increases to about 70% of GDP once contingent liabilities have been taken into account. Colleagues, in light of the bleak picture we have painted here, it is important for government to undertake measures to ensure further tightening of expenditure and reprioritisation. It concerns us therefore that departments continue to spend millions of rands of taxpayers‘ money on consultants.
For instance, according to the same report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations you will see that the Department of Education alone spent about R133 million on consultants while the department of Health spent about R400 million on consultants.
To make matters worse, the public sector commission has indicated or highlighted that the significant twine in the number of finalised cases for financial misconduct which creates a culture of impunity in the system. We support it for now.
Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP broadly supports the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement with certain reservations. The Minister of Finance, in our view, adhered to the prudent fiscal consolidation path announced in February. He has also remained resolute in the face of intense political pressure and intimidation from those involved in state capture and who were trying to gain access to National Treasury to enrich themselves.
Whilst Minister Gordhan and Team South Africa must be commended for averting a sovereign ratings downgrade, the country is clearly not out of the woods yet. Ratings agencies have indicated that the country‘s economic growth has been too slow for too long. I‘m sure we are all in agreement with that. This confines the country to a middle income trap, worsening its debt position and causing real GDP per capita to drop significantly over the past few years.
It is imperative that the country is able to reignite growth - and that is something that we are also in agreement with - failing which, our economic problems will continue and rating downgrades will follow. Regrettably, confidence in government‘s ability to solve economic challenges has taken a hammering with a political campaign to oust Finance Minister Gordhan and the extent of state capture that has now been exposed.
Ratings agency Fitch said that the political risks to standards of governance and policy making have increased and remain high with infighting within the majority party and government likely to continue and even get worse next year. This has also undermined efforts to improve governance of SOEs. Now we know that SOEs present the biggest risk to the fiscal consolidation path, which is set out in the policy statement. The state is exposed to R258 billion of a total of R467 billion in issued guarantees. Minister Gordhan has promised to reform these enterprises, which have experienced poor governance issues and high debt levels. Yet his attempts have met with a lot of political opposition such as in the case of the SA Airways.
However, on the positive side, there does appear to be an improvement in the country‘s growth outlook and shrinking current account deficit, ongoing fiscal discipline and, of
course, there‘s a nascent reform momentum in the labour and energy markets. We see that the projected budget deficit of 3,4% is relatively close to February‘s announced 3,2%, with the international benchmark of the budget deficit being 3%. However, as matters now stand, and other speakers alluded to that, the fastest growing budget item is debt service costs –
R147,7 billion. One needs to address this as far as possible as it is something that is of significant concern. From the ACDP‘s side we believe that ... [Time expired.] We will support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. I thank you.
Business suspended at 12:56 and resumed at 14:01.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Please be seated. Order, hon members, we are continuing with the debate and we would now have the next speaker, hon Figg. [Applause.]
Mr M J FIGG: Hon House Chairperson, the Adjustments Appropriations Bill before this House serves to effect adjustments to the appropriation of money from the National Revenue Fund for the requirements of the state in respect of the 2016-17 financial year.
Firstly, a major problem faced by South Africans is irregular, fruitless, wasteful and unauthorised expenditure. Irregular expenditure has increased by almost 40% since the 2014 financial year to R46,3 billion. The increase from the previous year was nearly 80%. The main reason for increase in irregular expenditure was the continued lack of effective controls and proper procurement processes.
While the total amount of irregular expenditure does not necessarily represent the total losses, substantial losses do occur where there are weaknesses in internal control. Irregular expenditure of 89% arose in the procurement of goods and services. A common practice in procurement is that prices are inflated as service providers are quite often family and friends of officials and politicians. This goes undetected due to poor leadership in government.
According to the Auditor-General, six entities were responsible for just over 50% of irregular expenditure in 2016 including Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, and the Department of Water and Sanitation. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure in 2016 was 14% higher than 2014 at R1,37 billion. Six entities were responsible for just over 70% of this expenditure, and again
Prasa and the Department of Water and Sanitation are included in this list.
Some of the identified reasons for the failure are: Management is unwilling and unable to identify and address risks and improve internal controls; vacancies and instability in key positions affect the financial and performance management; due to lack of consequences, while financial management is reported in some cases, the desired impact of discouraging unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure and fraud and improper conduct has been achieved.
Secondly, the mid-year performance of a number of departments receiving adjusted funding is appalling. So we are giving more money to departments who have underperformed so that they can achieve less with more. Some examples are: The number of Smart ID Cards produced by the Department of Home Affairs are 719 178 against a target of 2200 000; the Department of International Relations and Co-Operation who are receiving R950 million, the number of promotional events hosted were 5 against the target of
67 and the number of economic diplomacy activities to attract the investment, the actual received was 43 against the target of 237.
With regards to the Department of Basic Education which is receiving R144 million extra, they only built 7 Accelerated School Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, schools out of a target of 136 and the number of schools provided with sanitation facilities were only nine out of a target of 265.
With respect to the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries who are receiving R182 million, the number of subsistence and smallholder producers that were supported was zero out of a target of 145 000; the number of jobs created through the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme were
1 213 out of a target of 20 000.
Lastly, the Department of Water and Sanitation who are receiving R279 million achieved 19 out of a target of 427 of small water and waste water services construction projects.
There is a saying that, if you don‘t know where you are going, any road will take you there. In terms of the ANC‘s vision for the economy do they know where they are going? We don‘t think so because South Africa has an economy that is growing at 0,1% with a long term growth average of about 3,5% lower than the 5,4% required to create 11 million jobs.
Here‘s the problem: We have a President who is unable to steer South Africa into calmer economic waters. This is mainly due to his persistent corrupt behaviour, his relationship with the controversial Gupta family and his overall stupidity. Reliable sources tell us that about five members of his Cabinet have at least seen the light and called for him to step down to save our country from this corrupt and incompetent man. But the majority of the Cabinet disagreed. So instead of choosing to save South Africa you chose to save Zuma. [Time expired.]
Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: Hon House Chair, hon members of this august House...
... Aa, ndi masiari vhathu vha Afurika Tshipembe. ?amusi ?ihoro ?a ANC ?i ?o phasisa mugaganyagwama na musi vha no dzulela u hanedza vha sa zwi funi. (Translation of Tshiven?a paragraph follows.)
[Hello, good afternoon people of South Africa. Today the ANC will pass the budget even if the opposition does not want.]
Eka siku leri ra namuntlha ANC yi ta pasisa mpimanyeto lowu hambiloko lava va tshamaka va ri karhi va kaneta va nga swi lavi swi ta endleka. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[On this day the ANC will pass this budget despite those who are always on opposition being not in agreement with it, it will happen.]
The Adjustments Appropriation Bill puts in place key adjustments that are required to ensure the progressive realisation of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF - the principle document that guides appropriations from the fiscus over the five-year cycle. At the end of the last administration in 2014, the Presidency published a 20-year review outlining progress made since 1994, and identifying the challenges that still needs to be overcome.
It outlined that political and social rights are protected and that the lives of millions of South Africans have improved as a result of the new laws, better public service, expansion of economic opportunities, and improved living conditions. However, the challenges still facing our country are immerse.
As the 20-year review and the National Planning Commission, 2011, diagnostic report highlighted that poverty, inequality and unemployment continues to negatively affect the lives of many people. Too few people have work, investment is too slow, and education lacks behind our requirements.
The weak state of the economy impedes our efforts to reach our development goals. The ANC defined these at its 53rd national conference in 2012 as the second phase of our democratic transition, and called for bold and decisive steps to place the economy on a qualitatively different path that eliminates poverty, creates jobs and sustainable livelihoods.
Sustainability reduces inequality.
These require radical economic transformation and a sustainable focus on addressing the uneven quality of service delivery such as land redistribution. The ANC-led government‘s programme of radical economic transformation is about placing the economy on a qualitative different path that ensures more rapid sustainable growth, higher investment, increased employment, reduced inequality, and deracialization of the economy.
I am grateful to the business community, labour and government, who work together, puts the interest of the country first despite the many prophets of doom in this House. I am very grateful that they are working together and it can be seen by their ability to avert the downgrading.
I want to say that the adjustments and the overall reductions of the level of spending in government, which is facilitated by
this Adjustments Appropriation Bill is a reflection of the introduction of fiscal consolidation. Fiscal consolidation is a pragmatic response to slowing growth and rising inflation, and response to dealing with the costs of debt levels in the budget.
Logically therefore, downward adjustments across the votes of funds will be an obvious answer to fiscal consolidation whilst responding to emergencies, unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure. This has meant that a ceiling on expenditure increases has been in place since 2012, limiting growth to preannounced medium-term plans.
This year the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, limits planned expenditure for the period ahead. In recognition of lower growth and the decline in forward estimates of revenue, cost savings have been achieved in spending on goods and services.
Given the present economic challenges, and ever-growing priorities that government has to respond to fiscal balancing has been a priority. Fiscal balancing involves a shift from an expansionary fiscal policy to effecting cost containment measures and intensified efforts to improve expenditure
efficiencies as well as increasing taxes in order to boost the fiscus without negatively impacting on government‘s programmes.
Two specific matters that are raised in this context are: the ability of the state to raise greater variation in revenue generation; and the quality of government spending for greater impact. Hon Speaker, I want to pause here and express our concern about the quality of spending. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure such as what we have seen at Prasa – overspending – these things need to come to an end.
I want to appeal to every member of this House to realise that this is the result of our ineffective oversight, because if we were doing what we are supposed to do in an effective manner, there would be no underspending or overspending. I think we need to revisit the way we do oversight. Our sitting in committees forever must be adjusted.
I am suggesting that three quarters of the time, we should be going on the projects and check. We have every right, hon members, to believe on Sunday because that is the date for faith, but Monday to Saturday, we must go and check. We can‘t distribute money and then sit in air-conditioned boardrooms and
listen to essays written by people who are able to write good essays.
We need to do the oversight. We need to verify, and that is what the Constitution requires of us. We must lead by example. We must be very economic with the airtime that the country affords us. We must not take five hours in the House when we are supposed to take two hours. The civil servants must copy from us. They must learn from us. I have a problem with paying of people who don‘t come to committees? There are members who forever do not come to committees but receive their salaries.
Yesterday we worked until 10h40. It is a demonstration that we can walk a mile longer. I want to inform you that one of our members was tired and hungry that he left us in the battlefield, and that is hon Maynier. He left the committee. He was tired.
Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I hope in preparation for next year, all of us would read the oversight mechanism document. That will enable us to see whether what hon Shope and other members have raised will be covered in ensuring that we undertake our oversight work properly.
Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN: Chairperson, if any document has ever done is the failure of this ANC government the 2016 Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure, AENE is that document. It reads like a litany of failure, one department after the next failing to achieve its target; using up precious money that we now have to readjust and reimburse to give them more money to do less work with, it just never stops.
Last week, Dr Khosa told us that the struggle is not over. I agree with Dr Khoza, the struggle is right here. I mean in your own caucus, in your own NEC, that‘s where the struggle is. You need to resolve that struggle.
She further told us that the DA represents those who put profit before people and that we wish to maintain the status quo. House Chair, allow me to correct her. The DA puts people before patronage and has every intention of changing the status quo. [Applause.] We want this country to be governed by the DA. That is the status quo that we want to change.
Hon Kalako told us that a proper opposition should be serious about the issues it brings to the House. Well, hon member, if you don‘t think that the R2,9 billion in unauthorized expenditure is serious, then you have a serious problem because
we certainly do think it is serious. That is why we oppose the Finance Bill. If you don‘t think that to re-appropriate of R1,98 billion to departments that have failed dismally is not serious, then, I suggest you do not take the DA seriously.
We continually hear that the reason for our economic failure is because of the global problem. I can tell you that of the 45 sub-Saharan countries, 37 of them have better-performing GDPs than we have many over 4%, one even achieving 8%. That is in the same economic climate that we operate and we can only achieve point 1% GDP growth. That is the result of the ANC government‘s failure as evidence by this year?s AENE. Hon Minister Nzimande probably boasted.... Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mnu N E GCWABAZA: Sihlalo weNdlu ohloniphekile, boNgqongqoshe noSekela ngqongqoshe kanye namalungu ePhalamende. Njengo-ANC sizobeka lomthetho i-Adjustmest Approriation Bill yawezi-2016 ukwenzela ukuthi iMinyango kahulumeni ikwazi ukuqhubeka ngokunikeza abantu bakithi izidingo zezempilo, amanzi nogesi, izindlu kakhulukazi kanye nemfundo kuwo wonke amazinga kusukela emazingeni aphansi ukuya emazingeni aphezulu emanyuvesi nase ma- TVET college. Yingakho nje nemali eyabelwa iminyango yomibili yemfundo yenyukile ikakhulukazi imali ebhekelele abafundi
abahlwempu abasemanyuvesi nasemakolishi okuqeqeshelwa imisebenzi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr N E GCWABAZA: Hon Chair of the House, Ministers together with Deputy Ministers and Members of Parliament, as the ANC we are going to put this law, the Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2016, into effect in order to ensure that departments are able to provide our people with resources, water and electricity, houses and, most importantly, education at all levels from primary level to university and TVET colleges. That is why the budget for both education departments has been increased, especially with regard to money to support poor students at universities and colleges.]
Whilst the Adjustment Appropriation Bill the ANC presents to this House today, and recommends that it be passed, to meet the immediate government spending requirements, the ANC is mindful of the urgent need to take decisive medium and long-term actions whose aim is to stimulate growth, to create decent work, to address inequality and strengthen the national fiscus in order to invest more funds in the productive economy.
If we agree, as I think we all do in this democratic dispensation that the exclusion of the black majority from
ownership, management and control of the means of production was not assigned by birth nor divinely ordained, but that it was engineered by man during the colonial apartheid era through legislation with diabolic and dehumanising intensions, then we must equally accept that a total transformation of our economy can no longer be delayed.
South Africa‘s wealth is split along racial and gender lines. The wealth of the richest 1% most of whom are white males has doubled in the past 20 years. It has recently been reported that the two richest white males – I shall not mention their names for now - own wealth equal to that owned by almost 27 million poor South Africans, the majority of whom are black.
In the corporate sector, the Employment Equity Commission reports that 10% of the economically active white population occupy 70% of the top management positions and only 30% is held by black people. The proportion of black Chief Executives has decline from 15% in 2012 to 10% in 2015. People with disability are hardly ever considered for executive positions.
Niyamemeza ngoba nifuna ukuphika ukuthi yisimo esikusona lesi sokuthi abantu abamnyama bangakwazi ukuphatha izikhundla eziphezulu emnothweni. Kunjalo nje kade bacindezelwa ukuthi
bakwazi ukungena kahle emthethweni. Kuphikeni. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[You are being loud because you want to dispute that this is the current situation we are faced with, whereby black people are not placed in high positions in the economy. It is true that they‘ve been denied the opportunity to benefit from this legislation. Do you deny that?]
Thus race and gender exclusion remain impediments to socioeconomic transformation. Radical transformation of our economy must include acceleration of re-industrialization and diversification of the economy.
We must strengthen the competitiveness of the mineral resources for domestic consumption and for export markets, increase production in the automotive, chemicals, oil and gas and expand the tourism and agro-processing sectors. Re-industrialization and diversification must be accompanied by increased access to the growing export market in the African continent.
Kufanele uhulumeni kaKhongolose aqinise imithetho eyenza kube lula ukuthi osomabhizinisi abasebancane nemifelandawonye bangene ekuphatheni umnotho, basimame futhi bakhule, kakhulukazi labo
abasemalokishini nasezindaweni zasemakhaya. Futhi kufanele ukuthi siqiniseke ukuthi labo somabhizinisi abancane abakhutshazwa noma bagwinywe yilezikhondlakhondla zezinkampani ezingongqoshishilizi emnothweni wakulelizwe. Ngokunjalo kufanele izikhungo zikahulumeni eziphethe izimali zokuthuthukisa osomabhizinisi noma imifelandawonye yabantu zibhukule, zishintshe indlela yokusebenza futhi ziqinisekise ukuthi uxhasozimali luyafinyelela ngokusabalele nangokuphuthumayo kosomabhizinisi abamnyama.
kodwa kumele senze konke okusemthethweni ukuthi kunqandwe ukuxhashazwa nokuntshotshwa kwemali kahulumeni. Ngokunjalo abaphathi bezimboni zikahulumeni ake bayeke ukusebenzisa budedengu imali kahulumeni ngoba bethembe ukuthi uMnyango WeZezimali uzobatakula njalo uma bephelelwa imali yokusebenza. Izimboni zikahulumeni ezinjengo-Eskom, SA Airways, SAA, Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, sezikhathazile kakhulu ngalomkhuba wazo omubi. Kanti yizo kanye lezinkampani zikahulumeni ekufanele zifake isandla kakhulu ekusizeni ukuthuthuka komnotho. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The ANC government needs to strengthen the law and make it easy for young entrepreneurs and alliances to be in charge of the
economy, in order for them to develop and grow, especially those from the townships and rural areas. We also need to make sure that these young entrepreneurs are not crippled or destroyed by these big fish companies which are in charge of the economy of the country. Moreover, the government departments that are in charge of the money should work hard, change their method of doing things and ensure that black entrepreneurs receive the funding speedily.
We need to do everything in our power to stop misuse of government funds. Furthermore, those that are in charge of government funds should stop exploiting the funds just because they know that the Treasury Department will rescue them every time they run out of funds. Government industries like Eskom, SA Airways, SAA, and the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, have become a bother due to this bad habit. It‘s actually they who are supposed to play a big role in developing our economy.]
Hon Chairperson, it is equally critical for the ANC government to facilitate and accelerate investment into the historically neglected regions especially former homelands, through special economic zones, rural agri-parks and hubs to ensure rural economic development.
Collaboration investment by the government and the private sector is vital for the success of these initiatives. A capable developmental state rapid economic growth and inclusive transformation depend on improving and increasing skills for all South Africans.
Therefore, an urgent conversation of government, the private sector and the post-school education and training institutions must take place about the production of skills and competencies that is required in the public service and the industry; so that all institutions tasked with producing the country‘s human resources agree on the quality and throughput. This should include the Setas, the National Skills Development Fund and all other skills development scheme which are funded and subsidized by the government and the corporate sector.
The transformation of the post-school education and training and other skills development structures cannot be left to these institutions. Therefore, the legislative framework which governs all these institutions needs to be revisited. There must be more transparency and accountability in these institutions.
The National Development Plan says that the skills profile of the public service must mirror the national skills profile. This
suggests that the same quality and quantity of skills available to the public sector must equally be available to the private sector; because shared skills would enhance growth and innovation to ensure a better life for all.
What does the ocean economy and aquaculture mean to the poor communities populating the South African coastline and the big rivers and dams? Surely access to fishing licenses, equitable distribution of fishing quarters and inclusive participation in the fishing and aquaculture industry must mean a better life for these communities.
It cannot be correct therefore that a rich business person in Johannesburg has a fishing license in Cape Town or Saldanha Bay but a local has no access to fishing. It cannot be correct that foreign fishing companies harvest our ocean resources but the local communities cannot actively participate in this industry. I use the example of fishing with an understanding that the ocean economy is a lot bigger than simply fishing.
The digital revolution is upon us. Government is rolling out Wi- Fi and broadband. In order to benefit from the digital economy we need to focus on creating more digital jobs. No economy will
remain competitive if it does not focus on developing a digital workforce.
Technology is becoming a tool to modernize the economy, improve the ease and affordability of doing business. Technology must be seen by the employers and accepted by the workers alike as a tool to increase productivity and encourage multi-skilling, not as a tool to retrench the workers.
To get out of bad economic conditions such as we have, we need growth and that depends on accelerated re-industrialisation, we need diversity and we must beneficiate our mineral resources and expand the agricultural value chain.
We must strengthen trade promotion and market access for our export. There is an urgent need therefore to accelerate the construction of social and economic infrastructure critical to the success of which is public and private investment. Inclusive growth and inclusive transformation has to aim to widen the tax base to strengthen the national fiscus so that the country is able to transit from welfare to a developmental state capable of achieving a prosperous nation. The ANC supports the Adjustment Appropriation Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair and hon members, firstly, let me thank the committee for their constructive feedback on both the Adjustment of the Appropriation Bill as well as the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS. The recommendations contained in the reports of both committees are extensive, detailed and reflect thoughtful consideration of the challenges we face. The 2016 MTBPS aimed to bring a message of hope to the nation at a time of profound international and domestic uncertainty. Necessary adjustments have been painful but the recession has been avoided and the recovery is beginning to take root. We should take pride at the fact that we have managed a real and sustained depreciation of the exchange rate and we should put exports on a stronger footing.
Drought conditions are beginning to ease, electricity supply is beginning to improve, a new consensus on labour reform seems to be emerging and we have retained our investment grade. Despite all difficulties, our democracy remains robust and resilient.
However, without decisive action the recovery will remain very weak. Deep structural problems remains, poverty, inequality and joblessness. All our energy and creativity is needed to overcome these challenges. We therefore call on all sectors of society to join government, business and labour in working to try to
resolve some of the challenges and promote faster growth, boost confidence, investment and employment.
Twenty years ago, government spending amounted to 10 000 for each South African in today‘s prices. Now, the budget is close to 20 000 per citizen and currently too much of the spending is funded through debt and we now owe more than R2 trillion. South Africans must come together to face the difficult decisions. We must recognise that as vast as the challenges are, our resources are limited. We need to live within our own means and we must rely on ourselves, if we do not, we will discover that our sovereignty has been mortgaged. We will find the national interest increasingly held ransom to rising debt, and we will see our resources diminishing to fight poverty and inequality.
This is why the MTBPS puts forward major proposals to narrow the budget deficit and stabilise debt. This is not an easy path to follow but we think that it is the correct path to follow. The 2017 budget will sustain spending on core priorities and sift existing resources to meet critical needs. Apart from interest payment, the fastest growing areas of expenditure are post school education, social protection, health, human settlement as well as municipal infrastructure. We have also seen the effects of tight expenditure management in lowering growth in areas like
spending on consultants, travel and catering which have fallen sharply in real terms. We believe and confirm that they will continue to drop in the years ahead.
Rising compensation costs have put acute pressures on the budgets of government departments. Over the past year, Cabinet has introduced strict limits on the compensation budget and associated planning of national departments. It is essential that government and public sector worker reach balanced agreements on wages and productivity because we cannot continue to have the pressure from this direction. These steps will help improve to steady the ship but significant risks remain. We take note of the committees‘ recommendations that National Treasury consider expanding its risks reporting to Parliament as well as the proposal to prepare a long term fiscal report linked to the time frames of the National Development Plan.
South Africa‘s major collective challenge remains inequality and joblessness. The fiscal policy in part improves conditions of investment but we understand that this is not enough. Economic growth needs to be revived so that these challenges can be addressed. This explains why in the MTBPS we outlined a number of measures to boost the economy and grow it. We must all work to strengthen the ability of our state, to lead development and
transform society. Economic transformation means action that open new avenues for investment, employment and growth. These require an effective state focussed on core the challenges. It needs a society united around a clear programme of action. We will continue to work with the Parliament to forge this road ahead. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): That concludes the debate on 2016 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the First Reading debate on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill. Are there any objections to the Adjustment Appropriation Bill being read the first time? I now put the question; those in favour will say
?aye? and those against will say ?no?. I think the ayes have it.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the DA calls for a division. Thank you.
Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! I would like to remind members that they may only vote from their allocated seats. When required to do so, members must simply indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button below the yes, no or abstain signs. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button the member may therefore presses the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member‘s vote when the voting session is closed by the Chair.
Order! Are all members in their allocated seats? Hon Paulsen, please take your seat. Order, hon members! Order! Hon Paulsen, can you please take your seat. Order hon members, there seems to be a technical cliché which the members are sorting out.
AYES - 220: Abrahams, B
L; Adams, P
E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya,
V; Bapela, K O; Basson,
J V; Bekwa,
S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P;
Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R;
Bongo, B T;
Booi, M S; Buthelezi, M G;
Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R
N; Capa, N;
Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N;
Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Esterhuizen, J A; Frolick, C T; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jafta, S M; Jeffery, J H; Johnson,
M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N;
Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 85: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W;
Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a first time.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATIONS BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on which vote they
will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process for this session.
The proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer session. The first session will be question and answer session and after which we have finished all of that we will then again put the vote one by one. I shall put each vote ... [Interjections.]
Mr N SIGNH: Chairperson, we just need some clarity on that because my understanding is that the allocated time could be used either for a question or making statement but there will be no declarations later on. That‘s the way we have prepared.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, I will come to that. Thank you, hon member. I shall put each vote in respect of which adjustments have been made and in turn members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all votes and members of the executive have up to two minutes to respond to the questions.
Hon members, there have been requests from some parties that in some instances they will use their allocated time to make a declaration instead of asking questions, as hon Singh has just indicted. This would be allowed. Naturally, where a declaration instead of a question has been made, they will be no expectation for a reply. Once party‘s time has expired they will not be allowed to put further questions. Members must please press the talk button if they with to ask a question. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before I put their question.
LETTER OF APOLOGY FROM THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE
(Announcement)
Hon members, in the beginning I just want to indicate that the Speaker has received a letter from hon Adv Ngoako Ramathlodi, the Minister for Public Service. He is having bereavement and as such has asked the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services (Adv T M Masutha) to stand in for him.
He wishes to convey apologies to the Speaker as well as the National Assembly for the inability to attend. I also want to advice hon members particularly parties on the global time that
they have: ANC 49 minutes, DA 20 minutes, EFF 10 minutes and all other parties seven minutes each. We will monitor the time.
Can I ask the table staff to sort out the issue they want to consult me about? IFP has got 8 minutes. So it is the ANC 49 minutes, DA 20 minutes, EFF 10 minutes, IFP 8 minutes, NFP 7 minutes, UDM 7 minutes, FF PLUS 7 minutes, Cope 7 minutes, ACDP
7 minutes, AIC 7 minutes, AGANG 7 minutes, PAC 7 minutes and APC
7 minutes.
Hon members, we will monitor the time. Once a party has exhausted its time, the party will not be allowed to pose any question to the members of the executive. This was the agreement amongst parties. I also want to advice members that vote 2 is not part of the adjustment which is Parliament, so there won‘t be any necessity to put the vote to you. We will starts from vote 1 and then vote 3 because Parliament has got no adjustment in this respect. I now put Vote 1 Presidency. Are there any questions?
Vote No 1 – Presidency – put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr S C MOTAU: Chairperson, hon members, there are many reasons why DA cannot support the adjusted budget for the Presidency. The lack of a dedicated portfolio committee for the Presidency is a singular failure ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Can you please hold on, the time has not been put? I just want them to put the time so that we can see how much time you have. Can parties indicate whether they are making a declaration or asking a question? It is important for us to know what it is that parties are doing.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, to help you, we are making declarations throughout - no questions to the executive. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, you can please proceed.
Mr S C MOTAU: Chairperson, hon members, there are many reasons why DA cannot support the adjusted budget for the Presidency. The lack of a dedicated portfolio committee to the presidency is a singular failure on the part of this Parliament to discharge
its constitutional mandate to hold the President and the Deputy President to account.
This adjusted budget also calls for an additional R2,1 million for increased legal fees and related costs. We cannot contribute further to the cynical abuse of state funds for more want and litigation by President Zuma. To support this budget will be to accept that it is just fine that nearly 9 million South Africans should be out of work and poor while the President squander state funds on endless court cases to defend the indefensible.
The DA does not support this budget vote. [Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Mr L G MOKOENA: Thank you Chair. The EFF rejects budget adjustment to the Presidency. We do so fundamentally for two reasons. Firstly, due to the character of the person occupying the seat of Presidency, they have been pathetically lethargic in their management of its budget. They have declared unspent funds to the amount of R12 million because of their inability to fill posts.
Secondly, a more worryingly for us, an amount of R2, 1 million was used for unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure to pay legal costs. It is not rocket science that those legal costs relate to
the endless legal troubles that Mr Zuma is always finding himself in. The state cannot be expected to pay for his deliberate violation of the Constitution when he refuses to abide by the remedial action and the Public Protector regarding Nkandla.
The state cannot be expected to pay for his decade long ducking and diving from the courts escaping to account for his 783 counts of corruption, money laundering and racketeering against him. And for this reasons the EFF cannot support this Budget Vote.
Declaration of vote:
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson the IFP has repeatedly called for the establishment of a portfolio committee or a standing committee on the Presidency - this has never happened. The fact that this Parliament does not have an opportunity to scrutinise the finances of the Presidency is in itself dereliction duty. Parliament has a budget office, the Chief Justice has an office in which we can look at his finances but here time and time again it is not happening. If this Parliament does not step up, the Presidency becomes the runaway train, and there is no accountability and no responsibility. This is a
question that Parliament needs to answer if it is true to itself as an accounting body of this country. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are there any other parties wishing to ask questions or make declarations? That being none, I wish to advise that from listening to the presentations and also from what the DA have indicated, they are making declarations and therefore there are no questions asked. I now move to vote 3. The line by line will come back to it afterwards hon Minister. Are there parties wising to make questions on vote 3 or declarations?
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: House Chair, maybe I have misunderstood you in terms of the process that you have outlined. Aren‘t we supposed to decide whether we are voting or not on vote 1 and then we go to vote 3? Or are we voting together at once because the process that we have followed before was that we must vote on each and every budget. So we will want to divide on vote 1 because we can‘t approve the budget ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.].
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You will do that later.
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: One by one?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member as I had indicated earlier we are putting each vote for question and answer. And can I explain that the reason we are doing so is because we are dealing with the adjustment estimates. If a Minister wants to clarify on a question that has been raised by a member on the amount that has been adjusted, he or she has two minutes to respond to that question. But if a party does not wish to make a question but rather make a declaration, the party is free to do so. The Minister may respond but it is not an obligation to do so. Is it okay? Thank you very much. [Interjections.] After we finish we come back again. Yes, one by one – you said you wanted to work, there it is. [Interjections.]
Vote No 3 – Communications – put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Thank you hon Chairperson. The DA will most certainly not be supporting this budget as it contains an item for the purchase of a fancy new BMW for the Minister of Communications who I see is not here. This BMW X5 valued at R1, 06 million has luxury features such as top quality leather,
atmospheric lighting, spacious luxurious interior with specially selected perfectly crafted materials of the very highest quality
– lac lighting outside the door handles and front cigar lighting.
If the Minister would like to drive a car like this she is more than welcome to purchase herself such a car seeing that she earns more than enough money. It absolutely makes no sense given the poverty in South Africa for a Minister to use public money to buy a car like that. Minister if you had come to us and said here is R1 million, I will spend this money on the forensic audit at the SABC in order to fix the mess, and instead you are spending this money to show off. The DA will not be supporting this budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much the hon House Chairperson. Hon House Chairperson the biggest crisis that the Department of Communications over the past financial year has been a total lack of leadership displayed by the hon Faith Muthambi. This is the very Minister who has now spent our tax payer money on a luxury BMW during difficult economic times. Her department has rolled over R1, 24 million pertaining to its digital television awareness campaign programme even though this is not a large sum of money; it is hardly surprising considering
that the project has been played by controversy and poor decision making from the start.
But this is not being Minister Muthambi‘s biggest failure. While the SABC continues to limp from one management and financial crisis to another, the hon Minister has remained mum. Instead, she has continued to aid and abate all those who mismanage the public broadcaster. While the gross financial management of the SABC continues under Minister Muthambi‘s watch, the IFP cannot support Budget Vote 3.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are there any parties wishing to ask questions? I don‘t see any. These again are declarations but I will give the Ministry if they want to respond. With no response, I now put vote 4.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
Vote 4 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr K J MILEHAM: chairperson, this Minister and this department have failed South Africa. They have failed to intervene where necessary and have been heavy handed where a lighter touch would have been more appropriate. This has left municipalities floundering when they most needed leadership. The Minister has been in the news for all the wrong reasons, not least of which is his continued affiliation to and support of the Guptas.
In fact, the most recent revelations have exposed how the Minister and his advisors allegedly flouted the use of municipal assets as security for private loan financing. Chairperson, this is little more than state capture at a local level. In the traditional affairs environment, the department continues to make little progress in minimising the risk to initiates and has been particularly reticent in clarifying the roles and responsibilities of traditional leaders. This is playing out in the traditional and Khoisan leadership called public hearings which are currently underway.
Minister Van Rooyen and his department can at best be described as ineffectual and unable to manage the budget they have been allocated. The DA will not support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mr Z R XALISA: Chair, the budget of the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is adjustable up by almost R25 million. We also know for the fact that Mr Van Rooyen is a regular visitor to Saxonworld, that niche of corruption, to take orders on how to take orders on how to spend the money allocated to his department. We cannot trust Mr Van Rooyen with this very important portfolio for service delivery. He has sold out his soul for a plate of curry and has proven himself to be very corruptive human being. We reject this adjustment.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, the NFP is worried about skills development within this department. We have persistently said that the department must have the right people in the right positions, especially in the technical and the financial departments. Municipalities are not performing well due to lack of skills, especially in those departments. We are also worried that the department has underspent and has not reached some of its targets and thus then depriving people – especially in rural areas – of the much needed resources. However, the NFP will support this budget.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, I tried to look quite considerably to the provision of this budget vote. I didn‘t see anything or any programme that
says anything about Saxonworld or the Guptas. Nevertheless, let me indicate to members that this budget, amongst other things, is meant to allocate financial resources to 257 municipalities in our country.
I must also indicate that just recently, on 3 August, all of us crisscrossed the length and breadth of our country, telling the people that they must vote for us because we want to be a working local government. Now, if we don‘t support this vote, then we are rendering a system of local government that has been serving our people for the past 15 years useless.
This is hypocritical of opposition parties to come here and say this budget vote must not be supported after they have said to our people that they must vote for them. Here, I am sating to South Africans: Look at what you voted for! This is exactly the type of people you vote for today and they can‘t even support the budget that is meant to improve your lives tomorrow. I urge members to really support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much hon Chair. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe,
L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 90: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
Vote 5 - Home Affairs – put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, the EFF rejects the adjustment of the Gupta Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Gigaba. Mr Gigaba has proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he works for his tummy. He defends the Saxonworld curry with passion. Furthermore, he said he failed to see the expansion of services to rural areas and to townships. As a result, there are old people who cannot access such service as SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, because they do not have identity documents.
We also do not understand why poor people must pay for their identity documents. We call on the department to immediately scrap the need for people to pay to get access to identity document. We therefore reject the budget of the Gupta Minister.
Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I really don‘t understand why hon Mokause is saying what she is saying because she has never seen any meeting of Home Affairs and she is not even a member of the committee thereof. Now, we really know hon Hlophe as a member that we attend meetings with. [Interjections.] I don‘t understand why she is making noise.
As the ANC, we support this department for many reasons. This department is supported to continue with modernisation of the department, with the roll out of smart ID cards, with management of immigration regulations that we have just passed and the formulation of immigration policy that we want to implement in the country. This department is making significant progress and it needs to be supported. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chair, the department has made it very clear that our focus in terms of our services is towards the poor in our country. As a result, we have indicated that we are working on new mobile units that we are going to roll out to ensure that we reach out to rural areas to serve the rural poor people. Secondly, we have indicated that we are in discussions with banks, so that we can roll out the e-Home Affairs program, even in rural areas to be able to reach out to our people who live in those areas.
The department is also working with the Department of Public Works to establish additional service points so that we can be able to reach out to as many of our people as possible.
Therefore, it comes as a surprise to us to say that we are neglecting rural areas. Quite clearly, as the hon Mashile has indicated, the hon member who spoke about this is not a member of this portfolio committee, ... [Interjections.] ... she has no clue of what she was talking about except that which she was fed by those who fill her stomach up. Thank you!
Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, what is the point of order?
Ms N V MENTE: I am standing on a point of order: That we have Members of Parliament here, irrespective of which committee they sit in. They have a right to speak here!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. I note your point. Can we now move to Vote 6?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, House Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, hon member!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of procedure: Clearly, we didn‘t receive the invitation to the parliamentary year-end function as Shimmy Beach. [Laughter.] Can you administer that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, that cannot be a point of order or procedure. Invitations are private to members. Order hon member!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, any Member of Parliament can raise any issue here. It doesn‘t have to be a member of that particular committee. Our members can raise any issue about what happened. So, people must not come with white pants here and want to rubbish what our members are saying. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu, the point has been taken, which has been raised by the hon member. I am sure you might not have heard.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 218: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J;
Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z
R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 6 — International Relations and Co-operation—put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are there any questions?
Question:
Ms S V KILIAN: House Chair, the Department of International Relations and Co-operation received an adjustment of
R915 million on the basis of the fluctuating rand value. Now, we all know whose fault that is. The Department of International Relations and Co-operation has also received three consecutive qualified audit opinions; a lack of consequential management skills and a lack of political will to rationalise missions as advised by Treasury.
The question to ask to the Minister: Is it necessary to have 126 missions? We just heard the ANC advocate digital transformation. By combining missions and using digital technology we can reduce the number of missions and thereby reduce our budget. I thank you.
Question:
Ms H O HLOPHE: But House Chair, where is the Minister to respond to my question? [Interjections.] Hayi, shut up! I am not talking to you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Hlophe. Order! Withdraw that language; you can‘t say so in the House.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Which Rule, House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. Order, hon Hlophe, you know what you said and it is unparliamentary.
Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chair, it is a clarity seeking question. Where is the Minister?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The Deputy Minister will respond when she answers. Do you have a substantive question on the budget? Can you please ask?
Ms H O HLOPHE: Yes. House Chair, R4,4 million was wasted on unoccupied offices at Luanda in Angola as well as in Switzerland. So, Deputy Ministers, just tell us and the whole country about the R4,4 million you are paying for the stand-
alone offices. What are you going to do; are you going to pay back the money? When?
Declaration of Vote:
Mr M A MNCWANGO: House Chairperson, the IFP is concerned about the fact that there is still no intention ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, there is an hon member on the podium. Hon Hlophe and hon Nqweniso, can we please allow the member? Order! Members on both sides of the House, can we please allow the member who has a question to ask?
Mr M A MNCWANGO: House Chairperson, I was saying that the IFP is concerned about the fact that there is still no intention on the part of the department to reduce the number of foreign missions to a financially manageable number. Some of these missions that we are maintaining do not actually make any political or economic sense.
Another concern is that the Minister has become a truly foreign Minister, foreign even to the portfolio committee. She has dishonoured invitations to appear before the international relations portfolio committee on a number of times to answer some questions. So, we, as the IFP would appeal to the Minister
to please come to the committee so that we can exercise our oversight role.
Declaration of Vote:
Nom S MASANGO: Sihlalo weNdlu, i-ANC ijama iveke namalanga nalesisabelomali esiphiwa umnyango lo ngombana usenzela umsebenzi omuhle khulu enarheni yoke. Ngikhuluma nje inarha yekhethu ihlonitjhwa khulu ngomsebenzi eyiwenzako. Angizukungena kokhunye ngombana ngingakhuluma bekuyokutjhinga ilanga.
Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)
[Mr S MASANGO: House Chairperson, the ANC is standing firm regarding this budget that we are given by the department because it is doing wonderful work for the whole country. Even as I speak, our country is well respected for the work that it is doing. I am not going to dwell much on other issues because I could talk until sunset. Thank you.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
House Chairperson, on the question of reducing the missions, we have few missions as it is. [Interjections.] We said we want to be part of the global community and that is what it is. If you want to be part of the global community then you must have missions everywhere in the world for you to be able to
influence. It is going to happen in this administration and any other administration in South Africa. If you do not do that, you are not part of the global community. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 7 — National Treasury — put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are there any questions on this Vote? Can we move to next Vote?
Vote No 8 — Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation — put.
Declaration of Vote:
Mr S MOTAU: In the adjusted budget for the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation there is an amount of R1,9 million that has been shifted from programme one to purchase some furniture and equipment and an official vehicle for the Deputy Minister. As you heard earlier, this vehicle is
an Audi Quattro 7, 3litre tdi with a price tag of – wait for it
– R971 432,76. This vehicle seems to have been sneaked in through a virement and that cannot be.
The department is also taking R100 000 from national planning to donate to the SA Planning Institute. The Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation should not have money to give away. The DA does not support budget vote adjustment.
Question:
Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chair, to Minister Radebe, where do you get powers to appoint a board on National Youth Development Agency, NYDA? Where do you get those powers from besides Parliament because it is only Parliament that has those powers? Where do you get powers, chief?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Very interesting. I‘m not sure whether the powers are part of the adjustments. Are there any other parties?
Declaration of Vote:
Nk Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Sihlalo, singuKhongolose [ANC] siyalisekela lelivoti lesabelozimali ngoba lelivoti lesabelozimali liyawenza umsebenzi walo. Sibonile lelivoti lesabelozimali lisebenza linikeza into yokuqapha [monitoring instrument] ukuthi kufanele iminyango alandele [follow] ini esikubiza ngokuthi i-Management Performance Assessment Tools, MPATs. Iyabonakala futhi ivoti lesabelozimali eliphuma kuyona lena ihamba iyosiza i-NYDA laphaya ukuthi ihlinzekele
ngesidingo. [provide service delivery] Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBANE: Chairperson, as the ANC, we support the Budget Vote because it fulfils its work. We saw the budget providing the instrument for monitoring whether departments do a follow-up, by way of what are called Management Performance Assessment Tools, MPATs. We also note that the budget assists the NYDA to ensure that it provides for service delivery. Thank you.]
Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.
Question:
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, this department has declared R6 million unspent vacancies but what is important is the
vacancies in strategic areas, legal and governance, portfolio management and strategic partnerships. Given the fact that the department has oversight over state-owned enterprises, in all the shenanigans taking place at Eskom as evidence in the state capture report, I would like to know whether the department will use the R6 million to conduct an urgent inquiry into what is happening at Eskom so that its credit rating downgrade by
Standard and Poor‘s can be offset and that we bring stability to Eskom.
Declaration of Vote:
Ms N W MAZZONNE: House Chairperson, the Department of Public Enterprises should be renamed the department of state capture. Whilst we understand that the department itself does not control the funding of the entities, it is the stakeholder and ultimately the watchdog over the behaviour and conduct of the state-owned entities. Following the Public Protector‘s report entitled State of Capture, our state-owned entities have a lot to answer for. But equally the Department of Public Enterprises need to take responsibility for not acting against those and allowing for things to progress as far as they have. The buck must stop somewhere. It defies belief for it to be possible for officials of the department not to have known about the issues of state capture. It is quiet simple, this ministry should not exist and even if the existence was arguable, they have failed dismally in keeping our state coffers safe. If Minister Brown was here, she would hang her head in shame and tender both her apologies and resignation to the people of South Africa. The DA will not support this budget.
Question:
Mr F N SHIVAMBU: House Chair, part of the findings of the State of Capture Report which was released by the progressive Public Protector, made a finding which is not under judicial review, that the Eskom board was wrongly appointed. What is the Department of Public Enterprises doing to make sure that we have a proper legal board in Eskom so that it runs its affairs properly? That aspect of the Public Protector‘s report is not challenged. What are they doing to make sure that things are properly managed in Eskom?
Declaration of Vote:
Mr S M SWART: Chairperson, the National Treasury and government have commendably avoided the sovereign ratings downgrade.
Clearly this is a bit of a breathing space that we have received with ratings agencies saying that the governance of state-owned entities, SOE, is incredibly important. We know that SOEs present the biggest risk to the fiscal consolidation path with the guarantees that the state has been exposed to R282 billion of a total of R467 billion in issued guarantees.
Chairperson, our concern from the ACDP side is obviously the exposures in the state capture report. Whilst this is a declaration at the same time our question is whether the department or Minister is looking into those observation that
were made in the Public Protector‘s report and what we can expect in this regard. Thank you.
Declaration of Vote:
Ms D Z RANTHO: Chairperson, the ANC supports the budget of the Department of Public Enterprise because it is the right thing to do. [Interjections.] State-owned companies, comrade, yoh! I mean hon Chairperson ... [Interjections] are socio-economic developmental and therefore ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members, it was a slip of tongue.
Ms D Z RANTHO: ... they work within their mandate and it is true that they are working well to economically develop the country. Thank you Chairperson. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson,
regarding vacancies the Department of Public Enterprises is working under a difficult environment because it is competing with well resourced state-owned companies. Most of the emp0loyees employed by the Department of Public Enterprises resign and go to most of the state-owned companies that pay them
double even triple what we pay them. That is a serious we are faced with.
On the issue of state capture, Eskom board and observations, I think ... [Interjections.]
Mr M DLAMINI: Chairperson, I am just checking because you said that responses are from Ministers and Deputy Minister‘s
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, hon member, the Deputy Minister is giving a response, please take your seat.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, on the
State of Capture report, the Eskom board and the observation we are going to respond to the processes once they are completed. I think that the processes are still subjected to further processes, therefore, once all those processes are completed then we will respond comprehensively. I think I bring to the attention of the House that the Department of Public Enterprises has achieved 85% against its target. A 5% increase from the previous financial year. The state-owned companies‘ report in the Department of Public Enterprises posted a profit of
R5.3 billion. Thank you.
Vote No 10 – Public Services and Administration – put.
Declaration(s) of Vote:
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUISEN: Chairperson, against the background where Treasury is urging government to save, this department wants to move millions to items that will not contribute one iota to enhance service delivery. Two point two million rands for ministerial vehicles, R4.4 million for new furniture and South Africa‘s membership of the Open Government Partnership now requires an additional R2.5 million much of which will be spent on flights to New York whilst we see very little benefit of this partnership.
Throwing an additional R16 million into the national school of government will improve neither the cost effectiveness nor the quality of its cadre training programmes. The Democratic Alliance objects to the adjustments in the budget for the Department of Public Service and Administration particularly in the light of these vanity projects. Thank you.
Nks Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Sihlalo, uKhongolose uyalisekela leli voti ngoba wiwubonile lo mnyango usebenza. Manje abantu abaningi abahlinzeka ngezidingo [service providers] bakhokhelwa phakathi kwezinsuku ezingama-30. Ngakho-ke siwuKhongolose siyayibona
imisebenzi yalo mnyango futhi siyawubona nomehluko omkhulu eyenzile laphayana ekugcwaliseni kwezikhundla zomsebenzi ebesikade sikhalaza ngayo. Sithi sizoliseka ivoti. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote because we have seen the work of this department. The service providers are now paid within 30 days. Therefore, as the ANC, we see the work of the department and we see a huge difference in the filling of the vacant positions that we were complaining about. We are going to support the Budget Vote.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF
OF THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, I am advised that the three vehicles purchased, one for the Minister and two for the Deputy Minister were as a result of the previous vehicles having reached their life span and that was done in terms of the Ministerial Handbook. All the regulatory requirements were complied with, I think it is just politicking and grandstanding that is taking place. Thank you.
Vote No 11 - Public Works – put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms D KOHLER: House Chair, the construction and property industry is neither well regulated nor transformed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!
Ms D KOHLER: The Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE, bank overdraft has doubled to R1,4 billion, 158 government assets have been ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, we can converse, we can interject, but you must do so in a manner that the speaker can be heard. Over to you, member.
Ms D KOHLER: ... thousand of properties are missing, government assets or billions in rates and services crippling municipalities, R13 billion went back to Treasury unspent on infrastructure construction. You are abandoning buildings all over the country, providing heavens for drug lords.
Special Investigating Unit, SIU, is investigating 649 crocked leases. One in three leases is doggy. Independent Development trust, IDT, is at rock bottom with an audit disclaimer. Aluta continua, with no sign of the forensic order promised to the committee.
Twenty percent of your invoices are not paid on time bankrupting small firms. You only built 18 of 30 planned schools and not one of the 774 schools allegedly built has been signed off. There is a shortfall of 4 000 Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, work opportunities and not one of the 3 870 opportunities planned for school beautification was created. No cigar yet Minister.
Question:
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: House Chair, as the AIC we took a decision that we always support whatever is meant to benefit the people. But I have a question to put to the Minister. Hon Minister ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A T Didiza): Can you ask the question?
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: I just want to check what is the position with the EPWP workers who always complained that they have not received their stipends? Are they now properly budgeted for?
What is going to happen? Thank you very much.
Mr B MARTINS: The ANC supports the turnaround strategy effected by the Department of Public Works. There are challenges, but the department has taken measures to meet those challenges. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: On the EPWP, you must remember that this programme is implemented by the other levels of government and the various departments.
The issue of the stipends has been discussed in the recent conference and we are trying to regularise that. We give certain grants, but expect other departments and even the municipalities to augument on that. So, sometimes it is up to those other levels who are not playing their part, but we have had enough discussions to deal with this matter.
On the issue of the PMTE, if you have been following this department for the past 10 years, you can see that our property management trade entity is really rolling and is dealing with all the issues which you are raising. Those who have been part of the committee, they have always been commending the work which we are doing, which is a surprise, maybe for politicking on what is said today. That‘s what I can say. Thank you.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H.M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J;
Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 93: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Statistics SA – agreed to.
Vote No 13 – Women – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 214: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P;
Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N;
November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; V R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D;
Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 7: Cebekhulu, R N; Hlengwa, M; Mncwango, M A; Msimang, C T; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Van Der Merwe, L L.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms N V MENTE: The Department of Basic Education has made adjustment unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure to the value of R170 million. The repair of school infrastructure should be a planned activity as the department should know their deficiencies in infrastructure provision. Why was these activities not planned for well ahead of time and is done this way, is mind boggling. If this was cater for emergencies, what were these emergencies and were proper procurement process is followed, R170 million should be a plan, not an unforeseeable.
Mr G R DAVIS: Chairperson, the Basic Education Minister is in denial about the state of education in our country. The trends in international mathematics and science study released last week ranks South Africa second last out of 60 countries.
Yet, Minister Motshekga, said we must be proud of this achievement because we improved from 2007 when we came stone last. This is a Minister in denial.
The jobs-for-cash report shows that SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu has captured our education system in six out of the nine provinces. Sadtu is mentioned 694 times in the report. Yet, Minister Motshekga says the report has nothing to do with Sadtu.
Therefore, no intervention against Sadtu is necessary. This is a Minister in denial.
Chairperson, we cannot support an adjusted budget that fails to acknowledge the negative impact of Sadtu and the crisis of schooling in our poorest communities. I thank you.
Ms N R MOKOTO: Chairperson, the ANC welcomes and supports the adjusted budget because it will improve and maintain the South African education system. Even though there are challenges, we are confident about the turnaround that the department has planned to carry out. We support it. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A T Didiza): Minister, if you would like to respond, there are some questions and declarations.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, let me explain to the FF because the money ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A T Didiza): Order, let‘s allow the Minister ... Order! Hon Paulsen ... [Interjections.] Hon Paulsen, order! [Interjections.] Order!
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Kuya gulwa apha ekhaya. [There is sickness here.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Deputy Chief Whip!
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: But Let me explain to the member ...
Uyazigulela lo mntu wenu. [Your member is sick.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): order, hon Minister.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Minister, can you take your seat? Hon Deputy Chief Whip of the EFF, can you please ask hon Paulsen to allow the Minister to proceed.
Ms H O HLOPHE: But Chair, the Minister ...
... uthi uyagula uPaulson. [...says Paulson is sick.]
Is it parliamentary?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member, can you please ask because he was interjecting and I kept on asking
Ms H O HLOPHE: But you can‘t correct wrong by wrong, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, Chair, you must ask her to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member!
Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member!
Ms H O HLOPHE: I am humbly submitting to you that you must ask her to withdraw that one.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I also submit to you
...
Ms H O HLOPHE: She is not a doctor. She can‘t be saying to our member that he is mad.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I switch off the mic?
Ms H O HLOPHE: That‘s what she said. She said he is mad. Chair, no, she must withdraw.
Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson! Ausie Angie withdraws or she doesn‘t speak here today.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, Paulsen.
Mr N PAULSEN: She can‘t even manage education. You can‘t even pretend to be a doctor.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen!
Mr N PAULSEN: Useless!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen, you started interjecting loudly repeatedly when I ask you to keep quiet, you didn‘t. Can you take your seat? I am still speaking to you. Can you take your seat? Can you take your seat? Hon members, parties were given an opportunity to ask questions or made declarations and when parties ... Order! When parties have been asked to
listen to Ministerial responses, you may not like what the Minister said, but you ask the question.
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, hon Hlophe. Hon Hlophe, can you please take your seat. I am still addressing Paulsen. [Interjections.] I did hear. [Interjections.] I did hear. Can you please not have a discussion or a debate with both of you? [Interjections.] Hon Paulsen, can you please be in order, otherwise I will ask you to leave the House. [Interjections.] Hon members of the EFF, those of you who are interjecting me while I am speaking, I have listened to you. You can‘t want a member to withdraw when you are continuing to do the same thing. [Interjections.] You can‘t direct me what to do, hon member. You did not assist me with your member when he was out of order. [Interjections.] Order hon member, can you please keep quite. If you want to respond on this matter outside, we will do so. I will now allow the Minister to respond and I ...
Order, hon members. [Interjections.] Minister, can you please respond.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair! [Interjections.]
Mr M DLAMINI: Point of order, Chair. Does it mean that the minister has the right to tell us ...
... ukuthi uyagula futhi akaguli. Engathi lokugula kuyakuphazamisa kwawena Sihlalo. [... that we are mad and she is not mad? It seems as if this madness is affecting you too, Chairperson.]
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: On the question that was raised about the money that we had asked for, Chair, the money we have asked for is not for your regular budget, but it is money for burned schools, for storm damaged schools. So, it was indeed unforeseen circumstances. The member of the DA perhaps ... I really don‘t know what he wants me to ... because this money we are talking about is not the money meant for Sadtu or anything or teams, its money we are requesting for schools burned in Vuwani, Malamulele and storm damaged schools, which were unplanned for. That‘s what we are asking for, not Sadtu, not teams, not anything. So, you can deal with your obsession about Sadtu, but that‘s not the money for Sadtu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I will request after the session to have a discussion with hon Paulsen.
I will also talk to the Minister because this cannot be allowed. Hon Paulsen, I said you will speak to me after the session.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 221: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W;
Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; MolewaM; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T CMeshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga -Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S
T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M
S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 15 — Higher Education and Training — put.
Declaration of vote:
Prof B BOZZOLI: Hon Chair, approximately R17 billion worth of funding has been allocated in this budget to students over the next three years. The R17 billion will be used to pay the bills
of various categories of students, but none of it is to go to institutions themselves. Government therefore has helped students, which is a good thing, but has completely misunderstood the reasons why we have had the protests in the first place.
According to the Department of Higher Education and Training, it is underfunded to the tune of R120 billion over the next three years. Universities are therefore, because of this gross underfunding, being forced to charge higher fees in order to pay their bills. If this is not stopped, through funding going to the Department of Higher Education and Training and its institutions, fees will continue to go up every year by unmanageable amounts in the absence of any remedy and students will therefore every year find themselves short of funds because of that. The protests will therefore go on, until this is addressed. We cannot see the end of these protests until universities and other institutions get sufficient funding to keep them solvent. For this reason, we cannot support this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Mr N PAULSEN: Hon Chairperson, for the past two years the department has struggled to deal with student uprisings
demanding universal access to fee-free quality education for all. The Minister, instead of hearing out students, he recommended that universities increase their fees by 8%, leading to further chaos at our universities. Why have you not taken into account Minister Blade who as usual absent - probably at Saxonwold shebeen? What would be the implications on the budget of this department should the students decide to intensify the protests in January 2017; after institutions such as Wits have made provocative announcement that they will be increasing fees?
The EFF rejects this adjustments and calls for bro Blade to resign from his position as the Minister. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chair, the ACDP is concerned that subsidies to universities, Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, and Community Education and Training, CET, colleges are grossly inadequate with a number of students accessing higher education increasing and with the costs of running these institutions escalating. The situation which contributed significantly to university fee increases which triggered protests demanding fee free higher education.
For the ACDP the greatest concern remains the ongoing disruptions in higher education and the intimidation and criminal acts which disrupt the academic programme and resulted in the destruction of the university property. Sadly, many valid concerns have not been well articulated or represented by student leaders who have led by intimidation, violence and imposing their views and agendas on others. The ACDP calls on the department to initiate research into the role of curriculum in generating inequality and disregard for those who hold views that do not mirror the popular or politically correct view and to find ways that this can be effectively done where found to be necessary.
Change and transformation are costly especially in the short- term, but the long-term benefits must be considered. The percentage of the gross domestic product, GDP, spending on higher education is 0,7% which is low in comparison with Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, and other African countries. The ACDP does not support this inadequate budget. Thank you.
Question:
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chairperson, government has undertaken to provide R2,46 billion required for grants to all students from
families whose income is below R600 000 per annum, that is, the poor and the missing middle. These students should experience a 0% increase in 2017. Now the question is Deputy Minister: How far has the department‘s engagement with universities gone with regard to developing mechanisms for applications for gap funding? Thank you very much.
Declaration of vote:
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Chairperson and hon members, despite all the challenges that we have been experiencing especially at the universities, both in 2015 and 2016, we must congratulate the majority of students who despite all the odds against them have decided to complete the academic year.
Between Wits University and Stellenbosch University about 10 000 will this year be graduating and we must congratulate those and many of the other students who have decided to march on and complete their academic year and they too will be graduating.
This budget, hon members, addresses especially the poor and the missing middle. Indeed we will not rest until we ensure that we do not live out the Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVETs, and that we also do not live out the Community Education and Training colleges as they too are important as far as the
postschool education is concerned. As the ANC we support this budget because it certainly recognises the constitutional obligations of realising a better life for the poor. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, yes there are certainly funding challenges in higher education, but there is a process that is underway, the Presidential Commission that is looking at the overall funding of higher education in South Africa. We do appeal, not only to Members of Parliament, but to all South Africans that we give this process a chance and we give the Presidential Commission some time to do its work and present a thorough report to government.
Prof Khubisa, yes, we are engaging universities, we met the Registrars of universities last week and we will be engaging all stakeholders in early January, so that we continue these engagements that will then culminate into a smooth start of the 2017 academic year.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 215: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van
Der Merwe, A J; Xasa,
L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
S R; Williams,
NOES - 94:
America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M;
Baker, T E;
Bara, M R;
Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S;
Bozzoli, B;
Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 – Health – put.
Declaration of vote:
Dr H C VOLMINK: Hon House Chairperson, South Africa needs universal health coverage, UHC, we do, but the decision to use National Health Insurance, NHI, as a vehicle to try to accomplish UHC, needs to be reconsidered. Look at Programme 2 under which NHI falls, here 90% of the budget was spent, but only 63% of the service delivery targets were met. It is less than two thirds and despite this clear mismatch between performance and expenditure, a request is now made for an additional R35 million in virements for contracting under NHI.
We therefore simply cannot support this adjustment. The DA‘s policy alternative entitled ?Our Health Plan? is a far better approach to UHC ... [Interjections.] ... for fairer, faster and affordable health delivery. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question:
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, I have a question to the Deputy Minister: I do not see any provision in this budget for the temporary workers that ought to have been converted to permanent workers as was announced by the Minister and the President previously. KwaZulu-Natal has taken the lead and it is the only province that is accelerating this process; others are just dragging their feet. Perhaps you could just comment on that and what process you have in mind? [Inaudible.]
Declaration of vote:
Mr A F MAHLALELA: Hon Chair, as the ANC we wish to indicate that we support this budget; firstly, because we are in a process of making sure that we achieve the universal health coverage through the implementation of the first phase of the National Health Insurance. We are currently finalising the first phase and we will be entering the second phase where we will be able to put a legislation in place which we will make sure that we start implementing in full swing the National Health Insurance. However, secondly we are able thus far to make sure that
3,45 million patients continue to receive antiretroviral treatment without any failure and we are going increase that number as soon as we begin to introduce and implement a universal test and treatment approach. This will make a
significant impact into the ordinary lives of our people. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I want to start with the DA, I think they are obsessed with their opposition to the National Health Insurance and the universal health coverage. In the deepest of their dreams they have come up with an alternative plan, which indeed I must say is just a dream, because the National Health Insurance is the thoroughly thought- out plan based on researched evidence. Therefore we are indeed very confident about completing the ground work through the pilots and also through the team works that are completing their work in terms of detail plans for the implementation of the National Health Insurance.
Concerning the community health workers, we are in discussion with all the provinces in terms of finalising the absorption of those who qualify to can be absorbed within the work of the community health workers. However, in the process of course there are many who are employed by NGOs who would not qualify to be fully employed. So, we are discussing this with the various provinces to make sure that we can reach the finality. Thank you very much, Chair.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 220: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madisha, W M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T;
Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M;
Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T;
Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote 17 — Social Development — put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms B S MASANGO: Hon Chairperson, the R1 billion on irregular expenditure; an alarming uncertainty about SA Social Security Agency, Sassa‘s planned take- over of social grants to
17 million South Africans with just over three and a half months until the expiry of the current service provider‘s contract; and the shocking increase in virementsenvironment from R5 million last year to R18,5 million this year for Ministerial travel when the Minister has still not accounted for last year‘s R12 million international travel. All these issues do not instil confidence in a department whose mandate is providing comprehensive social services to the poor and the vulnerable.
This is at the time when the country is gripped by unprecedented levels of drought, economic constraints, and the highest unemployment rates. Add to this is the dismal failure by the Minister to account to the portfolio committee when legitimate questions are being raised about her department‘s spending on non-core programmes while underperforming in the very programmes for which her department and entities were created. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question:
Ms N V MENTE: Hon Chair, it is a question. Minister of Social Development, your department, in particular SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, is sitting with R1,5 million for irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditures where R1,2million is your responsibility. You double- booked yourself during the Imikhonzo eEvent which was supposed to have been held in Caper Town in March. You went elsewhere and did not pitch. They had to cancel the event and it has cost us R1,2 million. When are you going to pay back that money? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members, order!
Declaration of vote:
Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Chairperson, it goes without saying that the Department of Social Development continues to fail the most vulnerable sectors of our society. No where is this more evident than the fact that the department failed to spend
R1 billion which was set aside for the Child Support and Disability Grants. This was not this department‘s biggest failure because Minister Dlamini recently had absolutely no answers when she appeared in front of a Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, to give reasons on why Sassa incurred R1 billion on irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditures.
Also, a national crisis now looms with Sassa not being able to take over the grant payment itself. However, Tthese are not the only shenanigans at the Department of Social Development. Just recently, Minister Dlamini cost the taxpayers R1,1 million when she ditched the event the last minute to go and support President Zuma in her capacity as the ANCWL Chairperson. [Interjections.] In this instance, President Zuma once again came first and our country came last, and we need to know from the Minister when is she planning to pay back this R1,1 million. [Interjections.]
The Minister andin her department talks big but she does not deliver. The dismal performance of this department in its
endeavours to protect the rights of women and children is simply not good enough. If only the Minister worked as hard as she does in protecting President Zuma, then all of these challenges will have been resolved a long time ago.
Declaration of vote:
Nks N CAPHA: Sihlalo weNdlu namalungu ahloniphekileyo, i-ANC iyaluxhasa kakhulu olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Izizathu zalonto kungokuba ngabantu abangaphaya kwezigidi ezi-17 abafumana impilo ntsuku zonke, nyanga zonke naminyaka yonke kolu hlahlo-lwabiwo- mali. Kungoko kufanelekile ukuba amalungu ahloniphekileyo abeke phambili iimfuno zabantu ababathumileyo ngokuthi bapasise esi sabelo ukuze kulalwe kutyiwe kwimizwi yonke.
Mathol‘anyongande ngokudlelana ncedani isizwe soMzantsi Afrika ngokupasisa le voti. Eminye imibuzo ebuzwa apha maze ingami phakathi kwenu nabantu abahluphekileyo. Singabantu apha kwaye asizelanga ukuba sibe sisenza ezi zinto. Ndiyabulela, nantso ke, yivoteleni yeyakuni kwaye abantu abanithumileyo balambile.
Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N CAPHA: Hon Chairperson of the House and hon members, ANC supports the budget. The reason is because it‘s more than 17
million people who receive medical treatment every day, every month and every year in this budget. That is why it is necessary for honourable members to prioritise the needs of the people who sent them to support this budget so that there is food in all households.
We thank you, please help South Africa to support the budget vote. Some questions that are asked here mustn‘t remain among you and underprivileged people. Here we are people and we didn‘t come here to do these things. Thank you, there it is. Vote for it. It is yours and people who sent you here are hungry. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can I once more remind hon members that we are dealing with the adjustments. So, can we please try both in our declarations and questions come to the point on the issue that is on the table of the Vote Adjustment Estimates. We are not dealing with the whole budget but with those adjustments. I just want to remind members both in their questions and declarations.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo
weNdlu, okokuqala uma ngabe kuwukuthi uMnyango wezokuThuthukiswa Komphakathi uhlulekile ukwenza umsebenzi wawo osho loko kufanele
aqonde nqo asho ukuthi kuziphi zona izindawo ngoba ngazo zonke izinsuku uMnyango wezokuThuthukiswa Komphakathi ubheka abantwana abangama-300 000 abasemakhaya aphethwe ngabantwana.
Okwesibili, imali esayisebenzisa okokuqala sandisa isikhathi sokubhalisa ngoba sasingazange sikwazi ukubona ukuthi sizodinga isikhathi esingaphezulu kwalesi, futhi senza isaziso saphinde sabika nasekomidini. Wonke umuntu ngaleso sikhathi wayejabule ukuthi sesiholela abantu abakulungele ukuhola kodwa manje akusalungile ngoba sesenza ukuzuza amaphuzu ngokwezepolotiki. [Ubuwelewele.]
Okwesithathu, isigidi sezigidi [R1 billion.] yisilinganiso esingaphezu ... [Ubuwelewele.] ... angikholelwa ezintweni ezinhle ngoba ngesinye isikhathi ziba zimbi. Kuya ngamehlo akho ukuthi anjani. [Uhleko.]
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk A T Didiza): Ngqongqoshe isikhathi sakho sesizokuphelela.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Kulungile, ngakho-ke
uma ngabe uMgcinimafa wenze isilinganiso sokuthi bangaka abantu abazobhalisela imali yesibonelelo bese kubuya ushintshi - uyabuyela kuMgcinimafa lowo shintshi. Ngakho-ke akuyona imali
esisuke singayisebenzisanga. Ungangikhombi ngomunwe. [Uhleko.]
(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, whoever says that the Department of Social Development failed to do its job, must be specific as to which areas, because the Department of Social Development takes care of 300 000 children of child-headed families.
Secondly, the money spent initially was for extending the registration period because we didn‘t know that we would need more time, and we made an announcement and also reported to the committee. Everybody at the time was happy that we would pay the relevant people but now we are regarded as people who are scoring political points. [Interjections.]
Thirdly, R1 billion is a high estimation ... [Interjections.]
... I don‘t believe in good things because not all that glitters is gold. It depends on how you view it. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms T A Didiza): Minister, your time is about to expire.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Fine. Therefore, if the Treasury has estimated that a certain number of people will get grants and then there is a surplus, that surplus is sent back to Treasury; therefore it is not unspent money. Don‘t point a finger at me. [Laughter.]]
Vote 18 — Justice and Correctional Services — put.
Question:
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, this department is facing many challenges. As we discuss the adjustments, my question to the Deputy Minister is in view of yesterday‘s High Court decision in the Western Cape where the Pollsmoor Correctional Services was found to be unsafe for awaiting-trial prisoners. Judge Vincent Saldanah declared the conditions as unconstitutional and he gave the department 15 days to reduce the over crowding. What impact will this have because obviously a budget has to be found to meet what the High Court has ordered? Thank you Chairperson.
Declaration of vote:
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: The ANC wishes to support the Vote. We continue to support programmes that are run by the department in terms of carecanes, incarceration, rehabilitation and reintegration of inmates. In terms of the conditions of the
correctional centres, we are aware of the efforts that the department is putting into to improve the correctional services. We have noted what has been mentioned by the media in terms of conditions of Pollsmoor Correctional Services and we are hopeful that the department will be doing whatever is within its power to improve on the services.
One other thing that is just a challenge but we are aware of that requires concerted effort of the Justice Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, Ccluster is the number of detainees that the department has tried to reduce and we are looking forward to having those numbers drastically reduced again.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chair, I
am not sure because the question was apparently directed at the Deputy Minister. Should I still proceed and answer or should the Deputy Minister answer it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): If it was directed to the Deputy Minister I would suggest that he responds.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, the judgement of the High Court yesterday is indeed a very important development in the management of our panel
system. The decision by Judge Saldanah is a burdensome responsibility on the department but fortunately, with respect to the problem of the over crowding at the remand-retention tension facility at Pollsmoor Correctional Services, the judgement comes after the department hads established a special task team to manage over crowding nationally and in all the six regions of the department. This will ensure that, on a continuous basis – I am talking within weeks -, that there is an exchange of information about levels of overcrowding at different centres so that inmates can be moved around to keep a relatively acceptable balance.
In that respect, the department had already moved because, when the report of Justice Cameroon when it was tabled, it was acted upon it immediately and there was a whole response plan which included dealingt with over crowding at Pollsmoor Correctional Services. There is of course, as part of that judgement, an obligation that by the end of January next year, the department must table a plan with specific timelines in response to all of the areas that were pointed out in the report of Justice Cameroon. I can confirm to ... Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, your time has now expired. Thank you Deputy Minister.
Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Chairperson, we are glad that the Minister arrived safely this morning from Cuba in that private chartered gulfstream jet. The Department of Defence and Military Veterans is a regular transgressor and a recipient of qualified audits. It is dysfunctional in most of its core activities.
The Department of Defence and Military Veterans is facing an ever decreasing budget which cannot support the defence review objectives and the lavish spending patterns of the ANC. The department is neglecting its core constitutional obligations, as the Minister is more concerned with chartering Angolan owned gulfstream jet to fly both her and the President to Cuba than utilising our own fully functional Inkwazi. The extra R96 million in the adjustment budget to lease aircraft is a slap in the face of the 9 million unemployed. Reprioritisation of this budget must take place urgently as per the National Treasury directives. With this, we don‘t get value for money. DA cannot support this budget. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Chairperson ...
... siyafisa njengeNkatha ukusho ukuthi sinokukhathazeka kancane kumhlonishwa laphayana mayelana nodaba lwama-project angaqediwe, ikakhulukazi ukulungiswa kwesibhedlela esilaphaya ePitoli, esesibona sengathi sekuthathe iskhathi eside kungapheli, osekuze kwadala nokuba izindleko zokulungisa isbhedlela ziye phezulu.
Ngakho, besicela ukuzwa kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi ngabe lukhona yini uhlelo analo lokugqugquzela ukuthi kusheshe kuphele ukulungiswa kabusha kwesibhedlela esisePitoli. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... as the IFP we wish to say to the hon member that we are a little bit worried about the issue of incomplete projects, especially the refurbishment of the hospital in Pretoria, and we think it has taken too long and has led to the escalation of expenses. Therefore, we would like to hear from the Minister if he has any other plan to encourage the speedy completion of the Pretoria hospital.]
Mr B T BONGO: Chairperson, ANC supports this budget vote. We support this budget vote on the basis that through the programmes that are in the department particularly, Operation Thusano, we have managed to repair over 1429 operation vehicles.
The department has also managed to deal with the aviation armament to a tune of R287 000.
We support this budget vote through the operation Thusano on the basis that the Cuban officials that are in the department have now managed to save a lot of budget for the department. It is projected that in 2019 we would have saved an amount of over 2billion.
However, we did raise a serious issue about the self- sustainability of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. We have as Parliament sponsored views that we need to look at the allocation in terms of the Gross Domestic Product, GDP. We also need to look at the endowment properties that are there so that we can make sure that the defence is able to be self-sustainable and comply with the requirement as proposed by the Constitution. That is protecting the territorial sovereignty and promoting peace, both in the country and the continent.
Thank you very much.
The Minister of Defence and Military Veterans: Chairperson, on the unfinished projects in particular the one mill renovation projects, I am sure the hon member - as the member of the committee who have also visited one mill is aware of the fact
that there was time when there was no movement on this project precisely because, we have been using consultants and at that time we were dependent on the Department of Public Works.
The Department of Public Works together with the Department of Defence and Military Veterans have signed a memorandum of understanding where the Department of Defence and Military Veterans has taken over the actual renovation of all project relating to the department. Of course it‘s not easy because as you sign the memorandum of understanding one of the things you have to consider is that they were already consultants who had been contracted by the Department of Public Works and now there is an agreement that we are taking over everything including those consultants. So we are working very closely with the Department of Public Works to ensure that, indeed, the projects which we started some years ago should now be completed. I cant say people are moving with speed but I think it be would be fair to say that there is a lot good will and good work which is being done.
The hon member from the ANC raises the matter of self- sustainability of the department. You will recall that initially before we had Operation Thusano, all of these repairs were done by the private sector, all of these were outsourced. Now we are
doing our own repairs and of course, in the course of that the skills transfer which is taking place between the Cuban expects who are working together with our people ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much.
Vote No 20 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate - put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A;
Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T;Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T;
Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S;
Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Correctional Services – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S
A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A;
v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der
Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Declarations of vote:
Mr W HORN: Chairperson, DA cannot support the proposed adjustment to Budget Vote 21. Firstly, some of the adjustments are done on the back of the unspent budget of nearly R200 million, earmarked for building of new courts and improvements to court buildings. This virement is not acceptable in the absence of any interventions to accelerate the building refurbishment programme by the department and its Minister which will in no doubt result in further delays and cost escalation in respect of the Mpumalanga High Court, the South Gauteng High Court and numerous magistrates courts.
Secondly, we note with shock that no attempts have been made to finance any of the upward adjustments in this budget through savings on non essential items.
Thirdly, we cannot support a budget which completely fails to address the ever increasing performance problems in our criminal justice system. Growing court backlogs and a further decrease in the number of cases finalised with verdicts, are set to continue
as a results of the priorities in this adjustment budget. I thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, ACDP appreciates that in terms of financial constraints, this department and the entities that accounts to us is suffering severe financial constraints. So when we need to deliver justice in our nation, we need to ensure that this department has sufficient funds. We also need to ensure that the Public Protector has sufficient funds particularly in view of the fact its findings are now being taken more and more on review requiring more finding to defend court cases.
Legal Aid South Africa also indicated that if they do not receive more funds they will not be able to provide legal representation to accused persons. This will then have a knock on effect of cases being delayed and of course then leading to more people being kept await in trial in our prisons. So there are severe constraints when we consider this department that needs to be addressed. Thank you.
Ms M C PILANE-MAJAKE: Chairperson, ANC supports the Budget Adjustment Vote and supports the work that is done by all the entities especially Legal Aid South Africa, LASA, just to ensure
that the promises that we make to the people of South Africa in terms of legal representation for all in South Africa when people have got to stand trial. We think that it is appropriate that we improve on the budget especially of Legal Aid South Africa. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson,
indeed, Legal Aid South Africa has raised concerns relating to the budget cuts especially on personal expenditure which will have a knock on effect in supporting courts by way of providing legal representation to accused persons.
We have requested the department and legal aid to start a process of engagement with Treasury to look at ways despite the austerity circumstances of addressing that situation so that the knock on effect can be minimised.
On the issue of support and co-operation with the Public Protector, I just wanted to indicate that at the Public Protector‘s request I had a meeting with her yesterday – first of course to officially congratulate her on her on her appointment. However ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: At Luthuli House?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: ... no it was
not at Luthuli House it was at the offices of the Public Protector. Amongst the matters that we discussed was the need for us to support the institution by way of making available some of our infrastructure in particular court infrastructure, I guess that is a more neutral venue to be providing – receiving the services of the Public Protector than perhaps at offices of EFF or DA.
We are looking at possibly expanding of the footprint of the Public Protector through making available some of the resources at our disposal. But, we also talked about the need to develop a proper comprehensive framework of co-operation between government and the office of the Public Protector to smooth the speedy implementation of remedial action that the Public Protector my direct and all other areas of co-operation with the office. Thank you very much.
Vote No 22 - Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration –agreed to.
Declaration of vote
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, members of the Justice Portfolio Committee had a very good discussion with the Chief Justice and
member of the Judiciary last week; and we notice that the budget
– in this adjustment – has been adjusted upwards by R9 million, from R864 million to R873 million; and that the direct charge, which is salaries, has been adjusted upward by R30 million.
Clearly, what came out of our discussion was that there are still severe financial constraints for this new Office of the Chief Justice and judicial Administration. We believe that whilst this adjustment is welcome, additional funds are necessary but at the same time we do appreciate the fiscal consolidation path from National Treasury. We are in a bit of difficult position but we need to ensure that sufficient funds are given to the Office of the Chief Justice, given the new Limpopo High Court, to ensure that justice is speedily served to all people. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mnu S C MNCWABE: Sihlalo, nathi sifuna ukudlulisa ukuthi isabelomali okukhulunywa ngaso saleli hhovisi lenhloko yamajaji, siyasamukela kodwa sibona ukuthi kuningi okusafanele ukuthi kweziwe yihhovisi. Uzakwethu ushilo ukuthi sikhulume nenhloko yamajaji ngoMsombuluko odlule, ijaji laveza umsebenzi omningi okusamele wenziwe yilela hhovisi. Sizokhumbula ukuthi ngaphansi kwalelo hhovisi kukhona amajaji nezimantshi; umsebenzi mningi kakhulu. Siyacela kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi uma ebuyekeza
isabelozimali zakhe, imali efakwayo sengathi ingathi xaxa ngoba kukhulu esisakubhekile kuhhovisi lenhloko layajaji yaleli zwe. Siyayixhasa yisiqembu le-National Freedom Party. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, we also want to say that we support the Budget Vote of the Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration which is being debated on, but we think that there is a lot that must be done by this office. My colleague mentioned that last Monday we had a discussion with the Chief Justice; the judge indicated that there is a lot of work that is still to be done by that office. We must remember that there are judges and magistrates under that office and there is a lot of work. We request that when the Minister revises his budget, he should allocate additional funds, because we expect a lot from the Office of the Chief Justice of this country. We support the Budget Vote as the NFP. Thank you.]
Mr B T BONGO: The African National Congress supports this budget adjustment. We support this budget adjustment appreciating very well that this office has just been turned into a national department in the past two financial years.
Having been turned into a national department, there are quite a number of challenges. Key amongst is the issue of funding, which we appreciate, but secondly, we want to say as the African National Congress, we are at work, we are busy working around these issues, we have now seen the department passing the audits. Except the audits, Chair, all the critical posts that have been advertised in the department are filled.
I also want to confirm that we have met with the Chief justice and we have had a fruitful meeting. We hope that meeting would go a long way towards ensuring that we protect the Constitution of the Republic. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you for
those complementary comments. Let me start by expressing appreciation to the Chief Justice for continued cooperation between ourselves I ensuring that we have an efficient justice system in South Africa.
Indeed, the Chief Justice has provided leadership, even in relation to ensuring that the austerity environment under which we all operate finds permeates through the manner in which the Office of the Chief Justice, in particular, conducts its administration.
Members of the Judiciary have been very cooperative when it comes to curtailing, some of the expenditure items to the bare minimum to ensure that the mega resources that are available, given the budgetary and financial constraints that we currently going through, go a longer way towards supporting. And of course, we appreciate the additional funding of R30 million to support the personnel costs with regard to the direct charge for spotting the salaries and benefits of Members of the Judiciary.
We note that there are indeed budgetary limitations that will make it difficult, especially in the area of personnel etc. but we‘re hopeful that as we all try to survive under austerity everything will be done to ensure that service of our courts is not compromised and in particular, I would like to express appreciation to the Chief Justice through the National Efficiency Enhancement Committee that ensures that performance of courts is improved on. Thank you.
Vote No 23 - Police – put.
Declaration of vote
Mr Z N MBHELE: The failure of the ANC National Government to ensure an effective police service is acutely shown in the
skewed priorities of the South African Police Service, SAPS, budget and adjustments.
In the current financial year the VIP Protection received R2,6 billion amounting to an almost 50% increase in this allocation over the past three years. Way above inflation.
This means that while ordinary citizens live in fear of violent crime, the pampered elites can live and travel in their security bubbles disconnected from the reality of most South Africans.
To add insult to injury, the adjustments been tabled today propose to add R11,3 million more to VIP Protection. While the count of crime victims ticks up on a daily basis.
The DA will not support this adjustment and promises that under a government led by us, we will put the safety of the people first instead of furthering the nests of politicians.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chair, question to the Deputy Minister, there appears not to be any provision to fight crime specifically in the Western Cape, given the serious challenges of car high jacking in the province?
The current situation of the kidnapping of business leaders and the drive-by shooting. Where our people in areas like Bonteheuwel and in the Cape Flats are living lives of hostages. In their own homes, they cannot go out freely.
Can the Deputy Minister tell us what plan has the department got to provide some resources and clean out the Western Cape once and for all so that our people could live free and safe? Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: The Terrestrial Trunked Radio, TETRA, coverage project which has been under construction in Port Elizabeth for the last seven years is still not fully operational. The budget on this project is spiralling out of control because of the delays and we are advised that there is still no expected date of full operation.
I would like to ask the Minister, what is holding this project up? When will it be at full operation? What are the additional costs, because of the delays? Thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: One of the positive things that were done by the suspended police Commissioner, Riah Phiyega, was to order the setting-up of the National Trial Investigative Unit to
speedily investigate and deal with rogue police officers. As a result, a protracted and thorough audit of police ranks found that about 1 448 serving Police Officers were convicted criminals.
Is the adjusted budget allocated to the SAPS sufficient to clean up the Police Department to ensure that we do not have criminals who are protecting criminals within the service? Because if they are not cleaned up then crime in South Africa is not going to be reduced. So, is the budget sufficient and what is been done to ensure that all the corrupt policemen are removed from the service? Thank you.
Mr F BEUKMAN: The African National Congress supports the adjustments estimates. We believe that the adjustments will ensure that crime will be getting the necessary priority but also that the back-to-basics campaign that was initiated last year will get the necessary attention. Also the issue of the turnaround strategy for detectives must get the necessary support to ensure that that unit can have the necessary ability.
Furthermore, we want to also ensure that the South African Police Service got the necessary capability to deal with
organised crime and we welcome the fact that operation lockdown was also brought into the Western Cape during this last week.
Furthermore, the South African Police Service also ensured that students were able to write exams at most of the universities and of course, funds were also used for that. We welcome that as well. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson ...
... sizithathele ingqalelo zonke iziphakamiso eziphakanyisiweyo apha namhlanje, ndithembisa kananjalo ukuba uMphathiswa uza kuzinika inqqwalasela. [... we will consider all the issues that are raised here today. I also promise that the hon Minister will take them into consideration.]
With regard to the Western Cape, indeed member, the Western Cape has been prioritised and identified as one of our hotspot provinces when it comes to fighting crime. As a result of that, we have then decided to give more resources to the province in a way of giving police officers to address the issues of visibility. The rest I will forward to the Minister and he will definitely attend to those issues. I thank you.
Vote No 24 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, while South Africa is gripped by the worst droughts in recorded history and the agricultural sector is in a recession, this department‘s budget was cut by
R158 million.
Minister Pravin Gordhan made mention of the drought during his budget debate in February but sadly, only R212 million was made available with the adjustment budget.
Minister Jonas, this drought is far from over and it‘s estimated that 15% of farmers would not survive. The DA will therefore not support this adjustment budget. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, I just want to pose a question. With the drought that has affected the country as a whole, this department has been given an additional amount of R212 million. I would just like to ask how it will be used. In what areas will this R212 million be used? I want to ask whether it is enough to deal with the issues of drought and other issues that are affecting the farmers. Thank you very much.
Ms M R SEMENYA: The ANC supports the adjustment budget because this budget is going to support our smallholder farmers who have been affected by droughts and we know that this money would actually assist them, in order for them to produce food for our people in this country. We support the budget. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES:
Chairperson ...
. . . ungafunga ukuthi isimo sezulu sadalwa uhulumeni. [Uhleko.] Ngathi inkinga nje uhulumeni wafika nesimo sezulu. [... you would swear that the weather is controlled by the government. [Laughter.] It is like the government came up with the weather.]
Twice the government has tried to resolve the matter. Initially it was through provinces, where almost a billion was put together between or among several departments.
Secondly, R212 million has been put together but both the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform are negotiating to see if they can find another R100 million. Especially R100 million to help the North West farmers, among whom even those that are commercial farmers are unable to plant because they are
quite devastated and conditions are quite severe up there. But as to how it is going to be utilised, there are meetings going on between the farming organisations, like FASA and Agri-SA, where finally it will be agreed as to how we think this money should be utilised, and after that all plans will be implemented.
As for not supporting this budget because there is drought, please blame somebody else, and not the government this time.
Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order, Chairperson: I am proposing that the hon Deputy Minister must go and sit ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order, hon member?
Ms H O HLOPHE: Nineteen.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, what is 19, hon member?
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, 92, Chair. I was proposing that ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I know, I just want to clarify something before you continue. Rule 92 allows every member of this House to stand on a point of order, but the same rule, Rule 92(3)(a) says that you must specify which rule you are standing.
Ms H O HLOPHE: I was proposing that hon Ndlozi must go and sit next to hon Nathi Mthethwa there. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not a point of order. Thank you very much.
Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I want to remind the ACDP and the IFP that you only have two minutes left. As there are no declarations or questions on this Vote we will go to the next Vote.
VOTE No 26 – Energy – put.
Question:
Mr M M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the Minister and the President have been moving up and down the country, telling all South Africans
that the nuclear programme will only continue if it is viable. Now, the question is, can they give us the date and time when they will tell the country that the nuclear deal is viable to go forward; also, can they tell us how much money they have spent in order to determine whether this nuclear deal is viable to go forward?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In the absence of the Minister and Deputy Minister and there being no one to stand in, I believe, hon Dlamini, that your question will be printed and handed over to the Ministry as they are not present.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, can we suggest that at least ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, why are you standing? Hon member, why are you standing? Let‘s start there.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Rule?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Rule 92, demanding an answer on the question of when ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I have just explained that Rule 92 allows you to stand, but you must quote the specific rule on which you are standing as a point of order.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The Rules of the National Assembly demand that when we pose questions, particularly for this process, they must be responded to. There was an indication about Ministers who are not here; and that if they are not here, other Ministers will stand in for them. So, we are demanding an answer on when the nuclear deal will commence; and what the cost implications of that particular deal will be. That is a question, which must, rightfully, be answered before you pass the judgement budget.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you have made your point. As I said, we will print out the question and send it to the specific Ministry.
All hon members who might still raise points of order, I think I have explained Rule 92. Rule 92 does not mean you can raise any point of order. You have to quote a specific order that you are going to raise a point of order on.
Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put.
Vote No 28 – Labour – put.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of order: On your wrong interpretation of Rule 92(3)(a), could you please read it along with all of us so that you don‘t make that ruling ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto):No, hon member ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want to correct you, because you are giving wrong guidance to the House. It doesn‘t say you must only quote the rule that you are standing on, it says you can quote the rule or the subject.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I agree.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So you must allow us to say that we are rising on a point of order on a particular topic.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... not necessarily on the rule. But you are insisting that when we stand up it must be related to a rule instead of rising on the point of order that I am standing on.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank you very much. You have made your point. I said that so that people can be clear on how you raise a point of order, because Rule 92 just allows you to stand. When you raise it, you either quote directly, or you raise a principle matter that is there, or upon which you are speaking about. I do agree with you, but if you do that ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... that is a revised ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... but if you do that
...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... compared to what we were saying earlier. At least you have come to your sense now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. If you do that, if you put that principle, I will allow it, hon Shivambu.
Declaration of vote:
Mr I M OLLIS: Oopsie! Chairperson, there is no Oliphant in the room. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There is no what, hon Ollis?
Mr I M OLLIS: There is no Oliphant in the room.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is that?
Mr I M OLLIS: I beg your pardon, Minister Oliphant is not in the room. The country is in a jobs crisis and the Department of Labour is failing South Africans. In the third quarter 136 000 more people became jobless, bringing the total to over
nine million people who are unemployed. In this arena the Department of Labour has failed to achieve any of its targets for labour reform and the Minister continues to operate her department as a personal spaza shop, promoting her friends, protecting her friends from scrutiny and not dealing with internal failures.
The Minister is also not accountable to Parliament. She has only attended the Labour committee once in six years and stayed for
13 minutes. The committee chair refuses to summon her to the committee to answer questions. In this environment this department and Minister want us to agree to budget virements for
overseas travel, for luxury hotels, for fancy office equipment. We‘re going to vote no.
Incidentally, I don‘t know why you keep this Minister on. The Deputy President has to do half of her job anyway.
Declaration of vote:
Nksk L E YENGENI: I-ANC iyalwamkela uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kwaye ilothulela umnqwazi iSebe lezeMisebenzi ngemisebenzi eliyenzayo ukuphuhlisa intlalo yabasebenzi. Izinto eziphakanyiswa ngohloniphekileyo u-Ollis zintsha phaya kuthi ekomitini kwaye sicela abantu ukuba bangazithatheli ingqalelo. Isityholo sokuqala sokuba uMphathiswa unikezela ngezinto kubantu abangabahlobo bakhe. Ndingathanda ukuba aye phaya kwikomiti, akhe anabe ngesi sityholo khona ukuze siphefumle ngaso.
Ndikwalothulela umnqwazi iSebe lezeMisebenzi ngokuthi likwazi, nangona bekunzima kushota imali, ukuhamba lihlola indlela abaphetheke ngayo abasebenzi kwiinkampani. Bakwazile ukuyenza loo nto nangona bebeyenza kunzima ngemalana ebebenayo. Enkosi Sihlalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs L E YENGENI: The ANC supports the budget and congratulates the Department of Labour for the work they do which is
developing social life of the workers. Things that are raised by hon Ollis are new in our committee and we urge people not to take them into consideration. The first accusation that the hon Minister provides things to her relatives. I would be glad if he can go to the committee, and dwell much about the accusation so that we talk about it.
I also congratulate the Department of Labour for being able to go and investigate the way workers are treated in companies, although there was shortage of money. They have managed to do it although they had difficulties of having little money. Thank you hon Chairperson.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, there is nothing to respond to, except to convey our gratitude to the Members of Parliament in this portfolio committee who support the department, both in terms of advice as well as encouraging the officials in the department to do their work much better than they are doing.
The last point I need to make is to remind the hon Ollis of the basic fact that the Department of Labour is not about creating jobs, it is the department that regulates the labour market. And it is those who are in the position of creating employment
opportunities whom he should be calling on to do the necessary. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote No 29 — Mineral Resources — put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr J R B LORIMER: Hon Chairperson, this department‘s stewardship of our mineral resources is being shown as being deficient once again with the proposed Mining Charter. The industry is at the end of its rope. It has lost R46 billion over the last two years, now the government wants to impose massive new costs.
This charter will be good for the inner circle of empowered oligarchs. It will be bad for tens of thousands of people who are likely to lose their jobs. Perhaps it is best summed up by Ricardo Hausmann, a former finance Minister of Venezuela, now at Harvard, who also served on President Thabo Mbeki‘s international panel. He said, ?It is as clear now as it was in 2004 that black economic empowerment is more about making the top of society black than about making the bottom of society better.?[Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Mong N S MATIASE: Motsamaisi wa Dipuisano, Letona lena le sa tshepahaleng la Gandase, o tshepahala feela lapeng la ha Gupta.
Letona lena, Ali Baba le Mashodu a 40 [Ali Baba and 40 Thieves], ke sekena morung, ke setsetse, o dumela feela hore phokojwe ho phela e diretsana. O dumela hore leshodu ke le tshwerweng mme o tla dula a etsa manyala le bobodu Lefapheng la Tsamaiso ya Merero ya Merafo le Dimenerale. A ithuisa mmoho le lelapa la ha Gupta. Ha a tshepahale hoba o ne a bua leshano hore taba e amanang le dibanka le lelapa la Gupta, ka lebaka la leshano la hae le bobodu le manyofonyofo ao a etsang re sitwa ho ikamahanya le tlaleho ena. Re a leboha. (Translation of Sesotho paragragh follows.)
[Mr N S MATIASE: Programme Director, this dishonest member, Gandase, is only honest to the family Gupta family. This Minister Ali Baba and 40 Thieves is a villain, a wicked person who believes in survival of the fittest. He believes that a thief is the one who gets caught and therefore he will keep on with his shameful and corrupt activities at the Department of Mineral resources, of enriching himself together with the Gupta family. He is dishonest because he was telling lies when he said this matter is related to issue of the banks and the Gupta family. Because of his lies we are unable to associate ourselves with the report. Thank you.]
Mr B A RADEBE: House Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr B A RADEBE: House Chairperson, the person who was here made serious allegations about the Minister without coming with a substantive motion. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, we all know that if there are any allegations, we have to come with a substantive motion, and I must say that in this case we will listen to the allegations and rule on them. Hon member, yes, why are you rising?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, on a point of order: Do you know ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, on which rule are you standing?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Rule 91.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On Rule 91?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Rule 91 is about explanations, yes.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chairperson, we keep on raising this issue of substantive motions. Right? But we have put a substantive motion and we have debated the issue of state capture in which that issue of who lied and who said anything about has been thoroughly investigated in this House. So we must never come back to that issue of substantive motion again, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you very much, hon member, your point is noted. I must say that I stick to the ruling and the explanation that you were giving has nothing to do with this ruling I am making. Thank you. Hon member, are we still on this issue?
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I have a point of order: Yes, exactly, I rise, with respect to Rule 91 that the hon member referred to. The hon member was not speaking in the debate and no part of his speech was misunderstood. Thus, he could not stand to give an explanation. Presiding Officer, Chairperson, I do ask again, could the Presiding Officers ensure that the rules are observed and could the matter of sanctions where there are breaches ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, that is noted. Thank you very much I pass. Is there any member who wants to raise a motion? Sorry, not a motion, a declaration or a question? Thank you.
Declaration of vote:
Mr S LUZIPHO: Chairperson, as the ANC, we support the budget adjustment in relation to the Department of Mineral Resources. It is common cause obviously, with reservations, that in order to address the demand for the services sector there is a need to invest more resources on the revenue generating sector of our economy. And regrettably, this reality is too complex for those who suffer from political drought and ideological deformity.
Theoretically, delinquency and retardation becomes the only measure ought to resort to by them. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, can we lower our voices.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, we want to thank the ANC for supporting the proposal for virement that is on the table, but secondly, to remind the DA because all the time when they stand up in this House, they raise the Mining Charter. The Mining Charter is part of our law; it is part of
the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, MPRDA, that was passed in this Parliament. And section 100 says that we must transform the mining industry so that the indigenous people and black people must be able to benefit.
So this transformation is going to happen; 26% is part of this transformation for black economic empowerment, BEE. Clearly there are issues that we are looking into to derive lessons from the history of all these matters. The R46 billion and whatever that he is talking about, mining industries across the world, have lost money due to commodity prices and I am happy to say that the commodity prices, all across the board, are bouncing back and this matter is going to become better including South Africa. Thank you very much.
Vote No 30 — Science and Technology — put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Do we have any declarations or questions? None. I now put the next Vote.
VOTE No 31 — Small Business Development — put.
Question:
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the Department of Small Business Development has been allocated 0,1% of the total budget of government expenditure while small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, and co-operatives are expected to create 90% of jobs in the country. This is a serious concern to the ACDP considering the fact that the high unemployment rate in our country is causing people to suffer. As this allocation is not enough, the targets set out by the National Development Plan, NDP, I want to know if the Minister has requested for an adjustment of the allocation so that there will be sufficient funds to enable the department to train and mentor struggling SMMEs and co-operatives? And if yes, when and how is this adjustment going to be made? Thank you.
Declaration of vote:
Mnu S C MNCWABE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo ngaphambili, uma sisika elijikayo nathi kulolu daba lwesabelomali saloMnyango, sifuna ukuthi kumhlonishwa noma sisixhasa isabelomali sakho kodwa sifuna ukugcizelela ukuthi engathi ungaphakamisa kakhulu amasokisi ekuthuthukiseni imifelandawonye. Siyazi ukuthi imifelandawonye ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemakhaya iyona elekelela kakhulu ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukuzisebenza baphile. Nanoma sithanda ukuthi osomabhizinisi abancane nabo bathuthuke kodwa siyacela Mageba ukuthi imifelandawonye uyinakekele kakhulu
ngoba yondla imindeni eminingi ngesikhathi esisodwa. Yilokho nje elijikayo ebesilisika Sihlalo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr S C MNCWABE: Thank you, Chairperson. If we may comment on this department‘s budget, we want to say to the hon Minister, even though we support your budget we want to emphasise that you should pull up your socks in improving the co-operatives. We know that the co-operatives are the ones that help people in becoming self-employed and to survive, especially in the rural areas. Even though we want small businesses to improve, we ask you, Mageba, to take good care of the co-operatives because they support a lot of families all at once. That is only issue that we want to comment on, Chairperson. Thank you.]
Question:
Mnu M HLENGWA: Sihlalo, ngixolise ukukubuyisela emuva. Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe enye yezinselelo ezibhekene noMnyango wakho ikakhulukazi ukuphumelelisa amathuba aqondene namabhizinisi amancane ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Ngakho-ke noma sibona ukuthi sewunemizamo emikhulu osuyenzile yokuthi uMnyango wakheke ikakhulukazi kuZwelonke ngokumeleleka kwawo ngamahhovisi. Umbuzo omkhulu ukuthi: Yiziphi izinhlelo eninazo ikakhulukazi nokubambisane neminye iMinyango kahulumeni yezoLimo
nezoMhlaba ukuthi imifelandawonye yasemakhaya namabhizinisi asemakhaya athola ukulekeleleka ngendlela efanele nawo bese esondezeka emathubeni omnotho ikakhulukazi njengoba sazi ukuthi asialele emuva kakhulu, nokuthi bakude namadolobha nolwazi lwamabhizinisi abanalo bese begcina sebesala amathuba atholwe yilabo abasemalokishini nabasemadolobheni ukuze izindawo zasemakhaya zingabi nayo intuthuko esezingeni elifanele?
Izindawo zasemakhaya ngumgogodla wokuphila kwazo yiwona amabhizinisi amancane nemifelandawonye. Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, apologies for taking you back. Hon Minister, one of the challenges that your department is facing is that of improving small business opportunities, especially in the rural areas. Therefore, although we are aware that you are doing your best to improve the state of the department, especially nationally, by the way it is represented through its offices, the question is: Which programmes do you have, especially in working together with those government departments dealing with agriculture and land affairs, in order for the rural co-operatives and enterprises to receive acceptable support and to have opportunities in the economy? As we know, they are far behind, and they are far from the cities and since they do not have business knowledge, they end up being left out
and those who are in the townships and in the cities then get the opportunities, so that rural areas will not attain a high level of development. As for the rural areas and the backbone of their living, it is small businesses and the co-operatives.
Thank you, Chairperson.]
Question:
Mnu M M DLAMINI: Sihlalo, esifuna ukukwazi kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi njengoNgqongqoshe obhekelela amabhizinisi amancane, mangaki amabhizinisi amancane lapha eNingizimu Afrika? [Ubuwelewele.] Mangaki amabhizinisi amancane asethuthukile aba ngamabhisinisi amakhulu ngosizo loMnyango wakho? Okokugcina, bangaki abantu abaqashwe ngamabhizinisi amancane la eNingizimu Afrika. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M M DLAMINI: Chairperson, what we would like to know from the Minister, as the Minister of Small Business Development, is how many small businesses are there in South Africa? [Interjections.] How many small businesses have improved into big businesses because of the help received from your department? Lastly, how many people have been employed by the small businesses here in South Africa?]
Question:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Sihlalo, Mphathiswa, andikudanga kuyaphi kwimibuzo esele ibuziwe. Siyi-UDM sifuna ukuyibeka yona into yokuba imali eniyifumanayo ayizonelanga iimfuno zeli sebe lenu. Siyithethile loo nto kaninzi kwiKomiti yeMicimbi yeSebe loPhuhliso lamaShishini asaKhulayo, sithetha kanye le nto yokuba abanye oomasipala banengxowa-mali (budget) engaphezulu kunani nibe nilisebe likazwelonke. Niza kuyilungisa njani loo nto?
Kukho ingxaki kwezi ngxoxo ngalo Myinge oQingqiweyo woMvuzo (Minimum Wage) ukuba uza kubekwa kweliphi inqanaba. Sifuna ukunikhumbuza ukuba umba weenkampani eziqesha ngokungekhosemthethweni abantu abasuka ngaphandle, abantu bangakhuselwa, kweli lizwe awukasonjululwa. Lo Myinge uQingqiweyo uza kwenza utshintsho olukhulu kwaye abantu baza kulindela ukuba izisombululo zentswela-ngqesho zivele kwiSebe lezoPhuhliso lwamaShishini asaKhulayo bade babe bayakwazi ukubakhusela abantu kwimakethi yemisebenzi, ingakumbi aba baseMzantsi Afrika bengakhange babanomkhethe kubantu abasuka kwamanye amazwe. Siyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, Minister, my question is not very different from the questions already asked. As the UDM we want to put it on record that the funds you receive cannot meet
the needs of your department. We made this point several times in the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development, and the point that other municipalities have bigger budgets than yours yet you are a national department. How are you going to fix that?
There is a problem in these discussions with regard to the level at which the Minimum Wage is going to be determined. We want to remind you that the issue of companies that employ foreigners, with no protection to the people, in this country has not yet been resolved. The set Minimum Wage will make a big difference and people are going to expect that solutions to unemployment will come from the Department of Small Business Development until such time as they are able to protect workers in the labour market, especially workers from South Africa, without discriminating against workers from other countries. We thank you.]
Declaration of vote:
Ms N R BHENGU: Chairperson, the ANC supports the adjustment budget although it is not enough. South Africa is a Third World country for the poor and a First World country for the rich.
This department is central to facilitating participation of communities who are exploited as workers and consumers. It will
enable them to participate in the mainstream economy and therefore needs to be fully capacitated in terms of resources. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I agree with the ACDP as we have had these discussions in the portfolio committee about the fact that the departments needs much more than what has been allocated to it; and I would like to confirm in the House that through continued engagements with the National Treasury and other relevant departments we will continue to request for more money. I think it is in the same House that I have tried to explain that unfortunately we were also formed at a very difficult time. The department was formed at a time when the finances of the country were not good. Thus we were also requested to do exactly the same as other departments in terms of cuttings, where some of the money had to go somewhere else. And we had to agree to that as a department as we could not escape. But we will continue to fight for more money. But also I want to say that, as far as the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, is concerned and the other agencies, more than 80% of our budget does not sit with the department. It is a budget that is given to the agencies in order for them to support small and medium enterprises from a
financial as well as nonfinancial point of view. With regard to
...
. . . imifelandawonye sivumelana nani ukuthi imifelandawonye kufuneka akhule. Ngicela ukusho futhi ukuthi imifelandawonye ayithembelanga kuphela eMnyangweni wethu, sibhekene nokuthi eminye iMinyango enemali yemifelandawonye singasebenza kanjani ukuthi sibambisane nayo ngoba into engikhalisayo ukuthi esikhathini esiningi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... the co-operatives, we agree with you that the co-operatives must grow. I would also like to state that the co-operatives are not only depending on our department; we are dealing with how we can work together with other co-operatives and departments that have money because most of the time ...]
... each individual department has got their own programmes and there is no proper co-ordination and through that we have then agreed that transversal agreements that we are signing are part of trying to agree with that. As for the rural enterprises ...
... ngifuna ukusho ukuthi ... [... I would like to say that ...]
... the department has prioritised rural enterprise development.
Nakhona lapho ngifuna ukusho kufuneka sisebenzisane ... [We also need to work together on that ...]
... with the three spheres of government as a co-ordinated approach. Thank you.
Vote No 32 — Telecommunications and Postal Services — put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms D R TSOTSETSI: Telecommunication and Postal Services support the Budget as it will enable the previously disadvantaged communities to access opportunities which had been racially segregated to benefit the advantaged group.
With the Budget, we need the support of the masses to ensure that the SA Postal Service is not privatised, as privatisation will benefit those who think they are the chosen nation and have a monopoly on wisdom. It is through the approval of the Budget that the government is able to improve on skills development so that you are able to communicate with the global land and learn from the best and contribute to the economic growth.
They forcefully governed South Africa for over 100 years and never associated you with any sensible development except cheap
labour. The advantaged group is used to a sectarian government which perpetuates separate development through budgets at the expense of the poor. Unlike you, the future of their children is not dependent on the public budget. They can afford, hence their arrogance. This adjustment is meant to improve the welfare of all needy South Africans regardless of colour. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE OF TECHNOLOGY: [Inaudible.] ... say that we have nothing to add. I think the hon member set out the matters for the ANC. I am acting for the Minister.
Vote No 33 — Tourism — put.
Vote No 34 — Trade and Industry — put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you very much House Chairperson. Millions of South Africa lives under the stress, anxiety of over indebtedness, violence and intimidation that they face from unscrupulous lenders and particularly illegal money lenders or the so called mashonisas daily.
The only viable that we ask for in this adjustment was for additional funding for more inspection agents at the national
credit regulator who currently only has eight for the whole of South Africa. That adjustment was turned down. The two that were approved were R1, 5 million and for two new vehicles for the Minister - two new Toyota Fortuners and R200 000 which we have now learned has gone directly to an organisation that is housed within Luthuli House. An ANC organisation called Progressive Youth in Business. Rest assured we will get to the bottom of exactly public money was funded to an ANC front organisation.
There will be accountability and those responsible will be disciplined. Thank you.
Question:
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair I wanted to ask a question but I don‘t see the Minister here. But the specific question is that when he capitulated to the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA, threads, we were given assurance that jobs will not be lost particularly within in the poultry industry. Now recently, rainbow announced that it‘s going to unemployed about 3000 workers because it cannot keep up with the imports that are coming mostly from Europe and the USA as well.
The country bird holding, Astral, all of them are coiling their operations because they say that there are too many imports. And that affects directly most of the black chicken growers who
supply most of these big poultry farmers. How do we get to trust the Ministry and the Department of Trade and Industry when they are giving assurances that later on do not get to be realised when we deal with the trade issues. We want to be given a proper account before we agree on the adjustments.
Question:
Mr A J WILLIAMS: Thank you House Chair. I have a question. Minister, the ANC would like to know why did the DTI pay R200 000 to the Progressive Youth in Business? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much. Minister Davies is unable to be here this afternoon and he has asked me to respond. Both hon Hill-Lewis and hon Williams refer to a particular transaction in the virement and Minister Davies brought to my attention a letter here written this morning to hon Hill-Lewis. I will briefly quote from the letter, it says: according to the information provided to me, the company Regoapele Capital Wealth to Engineering was introduced to the broadening participation division of the DTI by the Progressive Youth in Business.
But the technology company applied for funding for the development of a mobile ICT application. In terms of the
sponsorship policy, payment of an amount of R100 000 to Regoapele Capital Wealth Engineering and not the Progressive Youth in Business, PYB was approved. In other words, it was paid to the company according to this letter. The remainder will be paid on the approval of adjustment budget and subsequence further processing.
On the question raised by the hon Shivambu, the Agoa deal essentially had the following three phases: before we put the anti dumping duty in place, chickens from the United States had free entry to the South African market. We put an anti dumping duty in place that essentially discontinued their access ahead. In the quote agreement, what finally came out of it was a limits cap placed on imports from the United States and I think the hon Shivambu correctly quoted the media reports recently that said the bulk of chicken imports are in fact not from the United States but from the European Union. I hope that would allow the EFF to support this virement in this adjustment budget. Thank you very much.
Vote No 35 – Transport – put.
Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr L J BASSON: Chairperson, zero percent assessment of the 963 sewage plants, 42% assessment of 1084 water treatment plants for drinking water. No blue and green draft reports. Water is life, sanitation is dignity. This is only a slogan for the ANC, while South Africans are struggling.
It is time for you to listen. Desperate times, requires desperate measures. We need better leadership than you and therefore are time for to go, in order to prevent a total collapse of South Africa‘s water infrastructure. I thank you. [Applause.]
Declaration of vote:
Mr M M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the department has made an adjustment of about 290 million for mobile desalination plant in the costal areas, but this is the same department that has accounted for fruitless and wasteful expenditure of 87 million.
52 million of that relates to duplicate payments. Duplicate payments means when you pay Mabala Noise twice on the same invoice. That is duplicate payments.
So, there is no way that we can support a Budget when you are failing to do a basic thing when you make payments. So, before
you deal with serious issues, just go and learn how to make payments then we can talk. Thank you.
Declaration of vote:
Mr M JOHNSON: Chair, the ANC supports Vote 36. We do so because are committed to servicing our communities, business and industries out there with drinkable and water that is suitable for industrial development.
Those of us in this House who object to this are now exposed for who they are. They don‘t want communities out there business and industry to serviced with water and sanitation. They have done so by objecting to any Budget adjustments. They want you to die because water is life.
They want you out there in Lamontville, Chesterville, Eldorado Park, Mitchells Plain, Kwamashu and in New Brighton to die, because they don‘t want you to get more money for you to be able to get enough water as it is your constitutional right. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, I really want to appreciate the comments made by the ANC and other members on sensible contribution that they have made.
The green drop and the blue drop reports are all with their respective municipalities and we don‘t only account and release the report to the DA. We release the reports to the respective municipalities so that they can have effective planning and better management and maintenance of water. So, those reports are zero with the DA, but they are 100% with the respective recipients of such reports.
Again, with the issue of desalination, exploration of alternative water sources is a priority and we are committed in making sure that our coastal cities are capacitated to have alternative water sources. As for the others who continue to bark, let them bark. We are proceeding. Thank you very much.
Vote No 37 - Arts and Culture – put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr M W RABOTAPI: House Chair, the rate of irregular expenditure in state entities, the failure of the department to support this entities, the Minister‘s don‘t care attitude on purchasing two brand new BMW sedans to the value of 1,5 million while the rate of unemployment continues to rise is a slap in the face for the
poor. Therefore, Chairperson, it will be very irresponsible for the DA to support this Vote. I thank you.
Declaration of vote:
Nks X S TOM: Sihlalo, uKhongolose uyalwamkela kwaye uyaliseka uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali olungqameneyo. Siyayibethelela kakhulu nento yokuba umsebenzi wesebe obalulekileyo, ingakumbi phaya kumacandelwana amashishini (entinties) ujongwe ngeliso lekhozi yikomiti. Kungenxa yeso sizathu sokuba sixhase kuba umsebenzi wesebe ubalulekile. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Ms X S TOM: Chairperson, the ANC accepts and supports the supplementary budget. We also emphasise the fact that the committee is keeping a hawk‘s eye on the important work of the department, especially in the entities. The reason we give our support is because the work of the department is important.
Thank you.]
Mr L G MOKOENA: Order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, I am sorry, I didn‘t see you. Do you want to make a declaration also? Continue. My
apologies, Minister. You can continue, hon member. Let me remind you. You have a minute left as the EFF.
Mr L G MOKOENA: I am going to ask a question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, no problem.
Question:
Mr L G MOKOENA: Minister, in the last tenure, the department promised that they were going to equalise the language space also in the education space.
And again, the industry itself has been asking for regulation of the industry itself. Now that Pan South African Language Board, PanSALB, and the National Arts Council have been dissolved, how do we plan on resolving these issues of equalising language space and regulating the industry? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I think I must start by thanking the member of ANC, the hon member here who shows the understanding of how the department is operating, the challenges and what it has done.
I didn‘t hear the question, you were very fast. You are feeding yourself with propaganda by your colleague there. There are no two cars here. You must go and check. Don‘t say anything you don‘t know.
But, I think the question asked by the member here is a sensible question, which is concerned about the development of the languages. We have said this and we have interacted with the committee that the process there is continuing. There is an advisory committee which is working with PanSALB currently to change and turn around situation.
We have started with that turnaround because the last term you had a disclaimer at PanSALB. This time around, it is a qualified audit but you can see the roadmap of where we are going to. Over and above that, there is a process of reviewing the White Paper. I hope, hon member, some of the intelligent suggestions you are coming up with here have been able to be processed through that process. Thank you, Chair.
Vote No 38 — Human Settlements — put.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any declarations or questions. No. I now continue with the next Vote.
Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.
Declaration of Vote:
Mr J SELFE: House Chair, the DA believes that rural development and its running mate, land reform, presents a fundamental opportunity for South Africa‘s future. The DA as the only party that supports the notion that the poor should own property themselves, whether it is in cities or in rural areas, regards this as essential. We are the party of title deeds and ownership of shares in businesses. We want nobody to be subjects of the governing party; we therefore cannot support this item.
We object to this item because it represents an unfunded mandate created by election lies, prevents fairness and justice from being a reality for our people and covers up the perpetuation of patronage, poverty and corruption destroying both our collective future and those of individuals.
A DA government has shown how a unified win-win approach can change the trajectories towards our future created by our terrible past. The DA will use land reform to help our people own their own future and destiny. The DA will lead South Africa to true freedom if we were in charge. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question:
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, this question is for the Minister. With regards to the issue that I mentioned the other day of the amaNdebele a Moletlane tribe, could you please tell us what is the latest development 100 years later. What is going on, are these people going to get their rightful ownership of the land that belongs to them? What is the process and how long it will take? Thank you Minister.
Declaration of Vote:
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Sihlalo, noma iNkatha ingaphikisani nalo mbono kodwa sikhathazeke kakhulu ngokuhamba kancane kohlelo lokuthengela kanye nokubuyisela abampisholo umhlaba wabo. Nakuwo lo mbiko sikhathazeke kakhulu ngokubona ukuthi ayikho imali eqondene nokuthengwa komhlaba. Lokhu sekube nemiphumela emibi ezindaweni ezithile. Abantu bangena emaplazini ngendlovu yanagena kuleyo mihlaba, lokhu kulimaza kakhulu uhlelo umnyango obe uzanalo. Siyathokoza. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, the IFP might disagree with this opinion but we are worried about the slow process of the programme of buying and returning the land to black people. In
regard to this report, we are worried to hear that no money has been allocated to buy the land. This has had a bad impact in certain areas. People possess farms by force in those areas, and this is disturbing the programme that the department is planning. Thank you.]
Declaration of Vote:
Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon House Chairperson, as the ANC we support this adjustment budget which will transform rural areas and the rural economy and make sure that the land reform programmes are implemented to address the skewed land ownership and the legacy of the notorious Native Land Act of 1913 and it will further empower the rural youth and women.
Those who oppose to this budget don‘t understand the important role of this department. They deprive rural communities‘ services and economic development; they deprive rural youth skills acquisition and employment opportunities; they deprive people their right to land; they deprive people their right to title deeds; and they deprive farm dwellers and farm workers the tenure security. As the ANC we support this adjustment budget.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon House
Chair, yesterday we handed over title deeds to five communal property associations, CPAs, in the North West - 54 000 hectares with title deeds to both the CPAs and traditional leadership.
Again, yesterday in the North West, we handed over just over 5000 hectares of a farm, to farm workers constituting a new company that owns that business now. [Applause.]
So, DA, your own districts are meeting today on Agri-parks. They are also meeting with me on Thursday in Johannesburg. Your own districts are part of the work that we are doing. You are just speaking here without understanding what is happening in your own backyard.
Hon member, there are two groups of amaNdebele and you only spoke on one and have not mentioned the Ndzundza tribe. I am going to meet with them. The Deputy Chairperson on the House of Traditional Leaders, the hon Mahlangu, has already arranged with me to have a meeting. We are trying to resolve the matter but it is very complicated. I do not know how to explain the slow pace of land reform to the hon member, but I understand and I take the point, it is slow.
However, we have appointed and established an office of the Valuer General for the country for the first time, reason being
that we want to make sure that land is cheaper and make sure that the Valuer General has the last say when there is land purchase in terms of section 25(3) of the Constitution of the land.
One big challenge for the country, House Chair, our country does not have land evaluation standards? Our country ... [Time expired.]
Vote 40 - Sports and Recreation - put.
Declaration of Vote:
Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair, the fundamental problem with this department and anything associated with it is that it is run by a celebrity groupie who does not have the best interest on sport. That Minister dodges oral questions like a tricky pick pocket; he has all the time to gallivant on endless junkets as is the case with the recent Barcelona treat.
The department and its budget have now become the Minister‘s instrument for political showboating, yet when he has to come to Parliament he is found wanting. Therefore, to support this budget would be to support the Minister‘s dereliction of duty and we do not have time for that.
The fact of the matter is that the Minister fails to fulfil the mandate of his office; he makes ridiculous commitments and promises to athletes yet when it is time to come and pay the money he is found wanting as is with the case of delayed payment of bonuses to the comrade runners. It took you five months to make that payment because you made a promise knowing very well that it was not budgeted for. So, all these adjustments are now being done to close all those gaps that were created by the Minister because everything that is associated with that Minister is done as a result of rush of blood to the head rather than due consideration. Thank you, House Chair. [Applause.]
Question:
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, it is clear that maybe you did not budget enough for the Commonwealth Games that are coming. Could you please tell us, is everything on track? Have we paid our deposit? Have we signed the guarantees? Are we ready to host the Commonwealth Games that are coming shortly? If not, why not? Thank you.
Mnu K P SITHOLE: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngicela ukwazi ngoba thina asiphikisani nesabelomali, ngokomthetho lesi sabelomali sincane uma usibheka. Kodwa engizama ukukuthola
ukuthi yiziphi izinhlelo onazo zokunceda abantu abasemalokishini nokuthi abantu abasemakhaya, eQhudeni, yiziphi izinhlelo ezikhona ngoba badlala ibhola ngamapulasitiki. Yiziphi izinhlelo uNgqongqoshe anazo ngoba kunezinhlangano zokushaya isibhakela emalokishini, lezo zinhlangano mazithole uncedo, lukhona yini uhlelo lokuthi imali ekhona encane ikwazi ukuyosebenza kulabo bantu abahlupheke kakhulu. Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr K P SITHOLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, we are not against the budget; in fact, this budget is not enough. But what I am trying to establish is, what programmes do you have to help people in the locations and what programmes do you have for people in rural areas, like eQhudeni, because they play soccer with a ball made of plastic bags? What programmes does the Minister have, because there are boxing organisations in the locations, and those organisations must get help? Is there a programme whereby the little money that there is, can be used towards those people who are more needy? I thank you.]
Question:
Mr M M DLAMINI: House Chairperson, to the Minister, you went to Spain ...
Esifuna ukukwazi ukuthi ngubani okhokhele uhambo lwase-Spain, uma ngabe kunguMnyango wezeMidlalo ukhokhe malini? Sifuna ukwazi lokho kuphela. [What we want to know is, who paid for the trip to Spain? If it was the Department of Sport, how much was paid? We only want to know that.]
Ms B N DLULANE: House Chairperson, the ANC supports this adjustment budget because that additional R6 million to a small budget will assist to build infrastructure.
Ms B N DLULANE: House Chairperson, the ANC supports this adjustment budget because that additional R6 million to a small budget will assist to build infrastructure.
Eli sebe sasililwela kwaye siyalilwela nangoku ukuba ... [We fought for this department and we continue to do so, so that the
...]
... Municipal Infrastructure Grant, Mig, must reinvest but as long now that at least something is happening we will fight until Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs see that we need infrastructure whilst...
... umasipala engakwazi ukuzenza ngokwakhe iziseko ezingundoqo besenza ezinye izinto ngaloo mali. Siyaluxhasa olu hlahlo- lwabiwo-mali. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... the municipality is not able to provide infrastructure and is spending that money on other things instead. We support the budget. [Applause.]]
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Let me start with serious stuff. First with regards to the Commonwealth Games, we are very much on track; we are still committed to hosting Commonwealth Games. We have not signed any agreement yet because we have not agreed on the total budget with Commonwealth Games Federation, CGF. We are still in negotiations with them and as soon as we are done with the negotiations and there is a breakthrough, then we will be able to brief Parliament and the public in general about the hosting of the Commonwealth Games. As a country we are very much committed. We are working with eThekwini and the government of KwaZulu-Natal.
We have implemented and launched a rural development programme in sports. By next year we will see the rollout of that programme to many rural areas in the country. We lunched it in Mthatha, recently we were in Venda in the Vhembe region and we
are rolling out the programme in all the rural areas to supply sport equipment.
The last point with regard to the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, budget: We are working with the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and Treasury to allocate the first tranche of the budget in all provinces and the projects that are identified.
We have agreed with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and Treasury that the initial tranche of this particular amount will be allocated in co- operation with Cogta and the Department of Sport. The budget is not with us but there is total commitment to allocate infrastructure development resources and in this regard we are moving with the necessary speed and we will see the rollout of this project in all the nine provinces throughout the country. [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, members. That concludes the Question and Answers session ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On what point are you rising, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please guide us on what happens to the relevant question we asked about the hob knobbing in Spain by the Minister, because we had asked it and we want a response on that. [Interjections.] Who paid for the hob knobbing activities and Instagram activities of the Minister? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, the question was captured very well, I think. [Interjections.] Unfortunately it was not one question and ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So what is the response? [Interjections.]
Can we have a special [inaudible] urgent to allow him to answer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I am going to switch off your microphone if you continue because I am trying to explain what could have happened here. [Interjections.] I am saying, the question was clearly but we have to time the responses. So, the Minister‘s time was finished, from here maybe you can write and still ask the question to the Minister.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We need a response, as soon as possible!
Discussion of Votes and Schedules concluded.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
Vote 1 – The Presidency – put.
Question put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 214: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Frolick, C T; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S
P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F;
Mahlangu,
Majola, F
J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M
Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S;
S A;
Makondo, T;
Makwetla,
S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke,
B J;
Manamela,
K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D
P; Mandela,
Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga
- Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M;
Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 94: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn,
W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Wilson, E R; Xalisa, Z R.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
Vote 3 - Communications – put.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I want to rise on a point of privilege which provides a member an opportunity during the sitting to move an urgent motion. The urgent motion is that John Block has just been given 15 years in prison ... [Interjections.] ... for money laundering and corruption, and it is a caution against those who are committing corruption and money laundering. You will be arrested! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! [Interjections.] Hon member, I am not inclined to allow you to move any urgent motions. [Interjections.] Please take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: And as Parliament we must applaud that 15 years in prison of the ANC chairperson ... [Interjections.] ... there in the Northern Cape ... [Interjections.] ... is down!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon member, take your seat. I am now switching off your microphone.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You are following, the rest of you!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order! Order!
Question put.
Division demanded.
The House Divided.
AYES - 205: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F;
Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mnganga
-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa,
M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 100: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mabika, M S; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Msimang, C T; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I
M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Wilson, E R; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 4 — Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B
L; Adams, P
E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya,
V; Bapela, K O; Basson,
J V; Bekwa,
S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P;
Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R;
Bilankulu,
N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S;
Boroto, M G; Buthelezi,
N S; Capa,
R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I;
Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B
H; Cele, M
A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I;
Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe,
S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 90: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B;
Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 4 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 5 — Home Affairs — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on an urgent motion of order. The Minister there is speaking on the phone. She thinks it‘s a taxi rank here. She‘s speaking on the phone when we are inside the House. [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You are rising, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: She must drop the phone. She can‘t speak on the phone inside the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member. There‘s no such thing as a motion of order. What is it that you are rising on? There‘s no such thing.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: A point of order as in Rule 92.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order. Hon members, we are ... as you will follow — you may take your seat,
hon member. You may take your seat — that we are busy in a voting session that we are trying to get through with the least possible disturbances. So I would like all members to pay attention please. All members pay attention so that we can conclude this process speedily.
AYES - 218: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S;
Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M;
Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F;
Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z
R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 5 accordingly agreed to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, I rose on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Which is what, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... about the Minister. The Minister is speaking on the phone during the House sitting. Is it allowed because if you can speak on the phone all of us can do that? [Inaudible] ... more important things to run in this country.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thank you, hon member. You may take your seat now.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But what is your ruling, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. Take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want a ruling ... if it‘s allowed to use a phone.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat so that I can make the ruling.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It‘s not a taxi rank here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member. Take your seat. Hon members, whilst we are busy during the voting process, please do not make use of your cellular devices and take calls. It is a possible distraction to us. So, let us get on with the business which we are here for.
Vote No 6 — International Relations and Co-operation — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 220: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula,
N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga
- Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G
K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 88: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 6 accordingly agreed to. Vote No 7 — National Treasury — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 293: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Capa, R N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini- Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-
Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Madella, A F; Madisha, W M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane,
M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli,
S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 15: Dlamini, M M; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Macpherson, D W; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 7 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 8 — Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 220: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S;
Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F;Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda,
R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Hadebe, T Z; Hill- Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 8 accordingly agreed to. (Democratic Alliance dissenting.)
Vote No 9 — Public Enterprises — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 215: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika,
M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla,
M J; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N;
Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote No 9 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 10 – Public Services and Administration – put.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, please note the objection of the DA.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Ms O HLOPHE: Chair, this machine is not working.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Will you check.
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: It‘s mine.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Is it hon Shivhambu?
Before I Declare the result, will you check if the hon member‘s vote has been recorded.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S;
Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi,
H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F;
Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, please note the objection of the DA.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H.M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J;
Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 93: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 12 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to.
Vote No 13 – Women – put.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, please note the objection of the DA.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 214: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba,
K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M
A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; V R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R;
De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 7: Cebekhulu, R N; Hlengwa, M; Mncwango, M A; Msimang, C T; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Van Der Merwe, L L.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 221: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W;
Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T;
Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Motau, S
C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 215: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A
T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni,
P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 94: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C;
Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 – Health – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 220: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madisha, W M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J;
Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P;
Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N
I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Social Development – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D;
Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S
T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 90: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A;
Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services – put.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Sizosebenza la. [We are here to work.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 292: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G;
Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela- Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C;
Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 17: Dlamini, M M; Dudley, C; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mokause, M
O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Swart, S N; Xalisa, Z R. Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N
P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti,
G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 94: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G;
Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T;Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van
Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development- put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P;
Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor,
G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S;
Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Office of Chief Justice and Judicial Administration
– put and agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Police – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 216: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-
Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van
Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 94: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 216: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S;
Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor,
G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 92: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone,
N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 216: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S;
Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Mbalula, F A; Mbete,
B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 26 – Energy – put. Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 293: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini- Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill- Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M
B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela,
Z
M
D;
Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe ,
E
R
K;
Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais,
S
J
F;
Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela,
E
K
M;
Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku,
M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B
E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J;
Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 17: Dudley, C; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Redelinghuys, M H; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Swart, S N; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 290: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y
I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Cele, B H; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kekana, P S; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M;
Maphanga, W B; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J;
Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M
H; Matsepe, C
D;
Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R
T; Maxegwana,
C
H M;
Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama,
T M; Mbalula,
F
A; Mbete,
B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin,
A R; Mdakane,
M
R;
Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R;
Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 12: Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 28 – Labour – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 216: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S;
Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E;
Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen,
P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 213: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L
P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F;
Mahlangu,
Majola, F
D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M
Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S;
S A;
Makondo, T;
Makwetla,
S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke,
B J;
Manamela,
K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D
P; Mandela,
Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T;
Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C;
Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 30 – Science and Technology – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 293: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela,
K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L;
Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela- Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M;
Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 10: Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P.
ABSTAIN - 1: Madisha, W M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 31 – Small Business Development – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 218: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika,
M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla,
M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R;
Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services – put. Vote 31
Vote No 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 208: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P;
Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N;Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S;Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda,
R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B;Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 98: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mncwango, M A; Mokause, M O; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Msimang, C T; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 1: Madisha, W M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to. Vote No 33 – Tourism – put.
Vote No 33 – Tourism – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 296: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini- Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D;
Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madisha, W M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D;
Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Ollis, I M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J;
Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 13: Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Matiase, N S; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 34 – Trade and Industry – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I‘m sorry, Chair, I
didn‘t quite hear; did the hon member say they call for a coalition? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I didn‘t hear that hon Minister. I didn‘t hear that.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a Point of Order, it is too early for that. We will show you in 2019, when we defeat all of you combined.
You will get out of power, don‘t rush relax.
AYES - 218: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A;
Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madisha, W M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T;
Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S;
Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 35 – Transport – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 219: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S;
Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda,
R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 36 – Trade and Industry – put.
Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S;
Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G;
Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 92: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J;
Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, the ANC must note that they have just voted for Reggie Nkabinde to continue stealing money.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat so that we can continue with the proceedings.
Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S;
Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty,
M
E;
Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe,
G
N;
Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli,
S
P;
Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe,
L
L;
Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa,
T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 89: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt,
D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 38 - Human Settlements –put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 294: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Edwards, J;
Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hill- Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; King, C; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H;
Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mbabama, T M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane- Majake, M C C; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N;
Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 16: Dlamini, M M; Hlophe, H O; Khawula, M S; Louw, E N; Madisha, W M; Matiase, N S; Mazzone, N W A; Mente, N V; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 1: Ollis, I M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land Reform – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 217: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane,
M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego- Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P;
Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 40 - Sport and Recreation – put
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 221: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P;
Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor,
G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N;
Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
ABSTAIN - 1: Madisha, W M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I wonder if you would not mind repeating that in Spanish for the Minister. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I think whether you are Spanish, French or any other language the results will remain the same.
Order hon members! Are there any objections to the adoption of the schedule?
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATIONS BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 218: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H;
Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota- Fredricks, Z A; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M ; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa,
E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, L D.
NOES - 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D;
Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokause, M O; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Purdon, R K; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Xalisa, Z R.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
ANNOUNCEMENT
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I wish to make the following announcement regarding the earlier motion on the gender commission. Hon members, we wish to indicate that when we extended the term of the ad hoc committee on the filling
of vacancies in the gender commission; the committee was captured on the Order Paper as a Joint Committee. This error will be corrected in the Minutes of the proceedings of the House when it is published. Everything else remains the same. Thank you.
The House adjourned at 18:38.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
Please click on the following link to access the relevant Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports for this day.
https://www.parliament.gov.za/parliamentary-papers?sorts[date]=-1
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