Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 21 Jun 2012

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

 

THURSDAY, 21 JUNE 2012

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 10:33.

 

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

 

NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice except for the motion on the Order Paper.

 

SUSPENSION OF RULE 239(1) FOR PURPOSES OF CONSIDERING APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution, printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the Appropriation Bill [B3 – 2012] (National Assembly – sec 77) on Thursday, 21 June 2012.

 

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

 

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

 

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Consideration of Votes and Schedules)

 

Vote No 1 - The Presidency – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the Presidency Budget Vote should be a glorious reflection of our rainbow nation - an open-opportunity society, strong leadership, sound economic growth, freedom of association and speech, job creation, quality education and a crime-free South Africa. The President had and still has a world of opportunities to lead this country like a true leader, but there is no leadership, no vision and no political will forthcoming, other than dancing and to secure and bank the votes at Mangaung.

 

This position of leadership has the responsibility to the people of South Africa to unite the nation, and there is no sign of it. It was the President who introduced the words “wage subsidy” in his state of the nation address in 2010, yet, he failed to hold his own against Cosatu. The rate of unemployed youth under the age of 25 is 49%. The President should protect the unemployed youth. This issue should haunt him every day until he forces the implementation of the youth wage subsidy. He holds the key that straddles a very delicate tipping point between a prosperous South Africa and widespread unrest.

 

The budget presented has grown at a phenomenal rate of 256% since 2003. Is any of this budget really justified? Are South Africans getting bang for their buck from their President? No. The DA will not support the Presidency Budget Vote. I thank you.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope cannot support Budget Vote No 1 - The Presidency when there is a breakdown of law and order in the country; when the Constitution of the country is threatened and when the entire country is burning. People in every city and every town are in the streets, protesting over basic services. When the President of the country failed to turn up at the annual Youth Day rally in the Eastern Cape, our question was: Where is the President? We can’t support this Vote. Thank you very much.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I want to say that the President of the country has a responsibility not only in South Africa but also internationally. He is an international figure and he therefore has to communicate with other countries. Any understanding Member of Parliament, let alone people in society, would have known that the President was attending the G20 Summit, and this was a summit that the hon member knows about.

 

I also want to say that it is a pity that people raise petty things. There will be protests and they did not start now. They will always be there, because 20 years later we are still dealing with the legacy of apartheid. We couldn’t have done it in less than 20 years; it is not possible.

 

On the issue raised by the hon Ms Van Lingen concerning an open-opportunity society, an open-opportunity society belongs to a certain section of our country. It belongs to the white people, in particular the rich and the haves, and excludes the have-nots. [Interjections.]

 

I also want to say that the DA, instead of trying to assist the ANC, is further dividing South Africans. They are encouraging black-on-black violence. A good example of that is what happened in Johannesburg when they organised their march. Where were the young unemployed white people? Where were they? Why was it only African unemployed people? That was a rented crowd, particularly from the Vaal in Gauteng.

 

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, on a point of order: We are dividing here: division and statements on budgets. This is not a debating forum. We are just stating why we are anti the Vote. [Interjections.] Are we going to allow a debate on every Vote? [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! I thought the member was responding to a statement made by a member. [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chair, I am doing exactly that.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, remember your declaration of vote should be only three minutes long.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I am doing exactly that. We can’t keep quiet when there are allegations and, of course, lies spread about the President of the ANC and of South Africa. Whatever members want to do, it would have been good if members assisted in building the nation.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, your time has expired.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Yes, Chair, and I want to conclude by saying the ANC supports Budget Vote No 1. [Applause.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! We now turn to voting. Could we use our electronic votes now? All right. Members will then vote ... [Interjections.] Yes, you can vote manually. That is all right. They will count you. Members can vote in favour, or can vote against, or can abstain by using their ... Yes, Mr Lees?

 

Mr A LEES: Hon Chair, could I please get some clarity? In terms of this new system, how does a division work? This is because traditionally a division is a physical separation of the members in the House. [Interjections.] Mr Chair, would you protect me, please?

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Let’s listen, hon members.

 

Mr A LEES: Hon Chair, I just want clarity. I am not prescribing to the House. I would like some clarity about the new system with regard to how we deal with divisions. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: When you press “against”, the machine will show that and then the staff will give me the results: how many noes there are, how many are in favour and how many have abstained. Then I will announce the results to the House. If your electronic voting system does not work, we will manually record your voting - unless members want to go back to the old order and we move quicker.

 

Mr A LEES: Thank you very much for your explanation, hon Chair.

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 27: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 13: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; Bloem, DV; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Makhubela, MW; Mlenzana, Z; Sinclair, KA; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People dissenting).

 

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope supports Vote No 2 but needs to raise some concerns about some shortcomings in Vote No 2. Cope feels very strongly that committees must be fully capacitated so that we can fulfil our oversight role better. We need to have a bigger budget for Parliament ... [Inaudible.]

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, the DA will not support the Parliament Budget Vote on the grounds that it fails to capture what the institution needs in order to carry out its functions in the most effective manner possible and in order to improve its democratic service to the people of South Africa.

 

The budget of Parliament, in fact, measures Parliament’s performance indicators, but gives no sense of the success with which the institution is actually performing. For example, they tell us the number of Bills passed per year, but not the number of Bills repealed or challenged in court. They tell us the number of questions put to the executive, but not the number of questions that remain outstanding.

 

Parliament wants to increase capacity, which runs together with training and development, but the budget decreased by 21,8% in nominal terms. As a consequence, the budget either underinvests, or, in certain areas, provides no investment in key areas that would support improvements in Parliament’s internal functioning. On the other hand, the budget overinvests in initiating and organising events and programmes external to Parliament’s core constitutional mandate. So, it is questionable that Parliament will be able to reach its targets.

 

The DA cannot support a budget that so inaccurately captures the true role of this Parliament and what it actually needs in order for it to be a Parliament of the people.

 

Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, in fact, one must start by saying that this is very disappointing. Thanks go to your and the Speaker’s leadership for having captured the key essence of the role of Parliament, for having raised the challenges Parliament is faced with, and for having provided what alternatives needed to be brought about in order to ensure that we have an effective people’s Parliament.

 

I find it extremely disingenuous and misleading on the part of the DA to even question the outreach programme of Parliament and, at the same time, they want to purport or position themselves as people who support the notion of a people’s Parliament. This is because the notion is primarily centred and anchored by our outreach programmes - by ensuring that we reach out to our people, by ensuring that we strengthen our oversight role, by ensuring that we listen to our people, by ensuring that we become a responsive Parliament.

 

We cannot, therefore, be seated here and listen to an hon member not supporting a Budget Vote of Parliament and even questioning the credibility of the outreach programme of Parliament. I think that is very misleading.

 

We have said this, and you have said this also regarding the Budget Vote: One of the things we will be doing in this financial year is to strengthen the capacity of the committees in order to make the committees of Parliament very effective and to ensure that they are resourced in such a manner that they are able to respond to the needs of our people.

 

Therefore, not to support a Budget Vote that seeks to do exactly that makes one question why they are Members of Parliament. Why is your party represented in this Parliament? That is misleading. That shows that this organisation or party called the DA does not care about our people and, therefore, would not even support the notion of a people’s Parliament during its outreach programme. I rise to say that as the ANC, we support you, we support the Speaker and we support this Budget Vote wholeheartedly. And we will ensure that we work with you to ensure that this Parliament is an effective Parliament that will address the issues of the poor and the marginalised in particular. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put: (

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, the DA certainly supports many of the programmes and initiatives of the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. However, I need to give a few reasons why we are not able to support this Budget Vote.

 

This is the department that brings government closest to the people. In the past financial year, this department received a qualified audit and the Auditor-General has, on various occasions, expressed concern. This was actually a regression from the previous year, which indicates that things are not well in this department. The department has branches of governance within the province that failed to perform across the country to the extent that a national intervention was needed. This was in the provinces of Gauteng, the Free State and Limpopo.

 

The department failed to exercise sufficient oversight over senior staff and senior appointments, leaving the perception of corruption or maladministration. This is not good enough. We need to see far greater resourcing and attention paid to the fight against corruption and maladministration. Good governance is possible and achievable, because in the provinces and municipalities where the DA governs the DA has shown that it is possible.

 

It is possible to be accountable and to achieve the targets for service delivery. We therefore are not able to support this budget. I thank you, hon Chair.

 

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Chair, the ID certainly supports many of the programmes and initiatives of the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. However, we cannot in good conscience vote in favour of this budget. In the past financial year this department received a qualified audit opinion by the Auditor-General. This was a regression from the previous year and a sign that all was not well within the department.

 

It was a clear indication that governance and management within the department were falling behind and that not enough attention was being paid to ensuring the department fulfilled its proper roles and functions. The government has witnessed severe breaches of good governance within provinces and abject failure and dismal performance by many municipalities across the country.

 

When one looks at the Auditor-General’s report of the 2010-2011 financial year on the spending of local municipalities, it makes it impossible to support a Budget Vote where money is not spent in a worthwhile way.

 

The ID cannot support a Budget Vote where there are incompetent staff members, a lack of discipline and a poor work ethic in some municipalities. Operation Clean Audit will only happen when this department implements the political will that is needed and has the burden of the people at heart. The ID does not support the Budget Vote. I thank you.

 

Mr A G MATILA: Chair, as the ANC we support this Budget Vote. The DA must not mislead our people. It is the ANC that started to deal with corruption. Corruption comes from apartheid times. The DA was always quiet. During apartheid, the DA never spoke about corruption. Today, they want to become the champions when they know that it is the ANC that started this whole process. Therefore, today they do not want to ... They rush to court when corruption is being dealt with within the DA municipalities or the DA provincial government. They rush to court to prevent that situation from happening. [Interjections.]

 

As the ANC, we say that we support this process, because we came up with the turnaround strategy - not the DA, but the ANC. Therefore, in light of that, we support this budget.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, could you all listen, please? I just want to move a little bit faster. I have a guide in front of me that was given to the Chief Whip and it is on my table. It tells me which parties are objecting and where a division is being called. Could I follow that? Would you be happy with that? Then we will move a little bit faster. A division has been called for regarding this Budget Vote by the DA and the ID. Could we get to the voting now?

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Bloem, DV; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC, Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Makhubela, MW; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani,  AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 12: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Van Lingen, EC ; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 5 – International Relations and Co-operation – put.

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 6 – Performance Monitoring and Evaluation – put:

 

Declaration of vote:

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope cannot support Budget Vote 6 on Performance Monitoring and Evaluation due to the unco-ordinated manner of accountability with regard to punitive measures taken against officials involved in acts of corruption and unethical practices. [Inaudible.] ... is a waste of taxpayer’s money, because it does not serve the public interest owing to selective operational practices. Cope in Parliament realised the need to ensure greater measures of accountability and punitive arrangements to ensure improved performance.

 

We are of the opinion that the department has failed in its duty to uphold these objectives. Therefore, the taxpayer’s money should be spent more productively. Thank you very much.

 

Vote agreed to (Congress of the People, Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 7 – Public Works – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, let me start by saying that Cope supports the Budget Vote. However, this department must be seen as the key catalyst in optimally managing this property portfolio in terms of the revenue generation of the state. Controversial leasing agreements, which prove more costly than ownership options, must come to an end. Cope will monitor the department’s turnaround strategy, as pronounced by the Minister - we were here; we listened - to ensure that various milestones are achieved. Thank you, Chair.

 

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, during a presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, the acting director-general said: If MPs knew the full extent of the problems, they would be shocked. She was right.

 

The sad reality is that the disintegration of state institutions directly impacts on service delivery. The National Planning Commission underlines the importance of a capable state in delivering quality services and says that without a capable state, there can be no service delivery.

 

While the DA government in the Western Cape complies with and implements the government’s Immovable Asset Management Act, this department does not have a reliable immovable asset register after two years in office.

 

We therefore understand why the Minister says that nobody wants to associate himself with this department. Our major clients are running away from us because they don’t get the services they expect.

 

A dysfunctional institution also encourages corruption. The acting director-general underlined this when she said: “The scale of corruption is so wide and goes so deep, it is scary, and if this department were a business, it would have been bankrupt.”

 

To fix the department, the Minister must appoint skilled and technically qualified people. As the Minister said: This department is a technical department. It requires skilled people such as architects, engineers and quantity surveyors, yet this department has almost none.

 

While we appreciate the Minister’s candid openness about this department, we need to see action and results. Until such time, the DA will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: Hon Chairperson, I am surprised okushiwo yi-DA [by what is said by DA]. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. In his 2012 state of the nation address, President Zuma placed emphasis on, amongst other things, the massive infrastructure development drive for the year 2012 and beyond, that will underpin economic growth and job creation and be pivotal in supporting enterprise development and enhancing the transformation of the construction industry.

 

As a leader in the provision of government building infrastructure in South Africa, the Department of Public Works plays a critical role in providing an enabling environment for the effective and efficient implementation of social and economic infrastructure.

 

The department’s mission is, therefore, to promote government’s policy objectives by providing and managing the accommodation, housing, land and infrastructure-related needs of user departments, co-ordinating the national Expanded Public Works Programme and driving the transformation of the construction and property industries. By bringing to the market modern, improved methods of construction, the dignity of people who live under disadvantaged circumstances will be restored. [Interjections.] You were there in the past; you know what you were doing.

 

Through skills transfer and training, Public Works will be contributing to the national goal of job creation and poverty alleviation, while, by applying innovative technologies suitable for fast-tracking rural development, public services will be improved, especially in rural areas. In this way, the ANC-led government will fulfil its promise of developing affordable, improved housing and infrastructure in a healthier habitat. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z ; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 12: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Makhubela, MW; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 8 – Women, Children and People with Disabilities – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, this department’s role is still not clear to this day. This gives the Minister an opportunity to dodge the questions on where she failed to deliver. Weak leadership in this department is to the detriment of this very noble cause. It is also clear to Cope that the department is only a burden on the taxpayer at the moment. The department’s administration budget has skyrocketed by 400% from R1,7 million to R42,8 million. We do not support this. Thank you, Chairperson.

 

Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, the DA has been monitoring the performance of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities. Poor financial management and inappropriate spending priorities have become the defining characteristics of the department. The department’s failure to spend the budget on its rights for persons with disabilities’ programme is equivalent to a violation of the rights of South Africans with disabilities. Last, but not least, lack of leadership, responsibility and action plans played a pivotal role in the failure to empower our most vulnerable groups – again, that is women, children and people with disabilities. The DA therefore cannot support the 2012-13 budget. Thank you, Chair.

 

Ms B P MABE: Hon Chair, let me start by saying that the ANC supports the Budget Vote. It is unfortunate that the hon Worth is a member of the committee. He agrees on everything that we do in the committee. Before the budget was tabled, we had our committee meeting at which the department presented their strategic plan, their annual budget, their spending and their challenges. He was there, but never raised anything.

It is unfortunate that people get channelled to come and say things that they personally know are incorrect. I am also saddened by the fact that the hon Sinclair from Cope is publicly saying that he does not understand the role of the department. I will not outline that to him. It is his responsibility to read about it. It is indeed a very sad day today to hear Cope say that the formation of the department is a burden. That is a serious allegation, and it is wrong. I know that people with disabilities, and women and children will not be happy to hear that.

 

This department is here. It is the ANC that has supported it in making sure that we champion the rights of the voiceless and marginalised people who were never recognised before by the apartheid regime. We are trying to champion their rights, make sure that we recognise them and make sure that they will never be marginalised again. Therefore, we wholeheartedly support this budget. Thank you.

 

Mr A NYAMBI: Chairperson, is it parliamentary for an hon member to insult another member and say that the hon member said what he said owing to the Bantu education that he went through? [Interjections.] That was the hon Sinclair. The hon Sinclair said that the hon Mabe was saying what she said because of the influence of Bantu education. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I did not hear the statement as she was not speaking into the microphone. [Interjections.] I am not sure whether it was recorded or not. [Interjections.] Order! You have raised your point of order. Now give me a chance to talk, hon member. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chair, I suggest that we go to the record and listen to what I said.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will not hear it on record because it was not recorded. I am asking if you said that because it was not recorded; you were far from the microphone. If you said it, just say so and withdraw.

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: No, Chair, I suggest we go to the record and see if it was picked up. [Interjections.] Are you the Chairperson? Chair, what I am saying is: In terms of the context of what I said, it is not what is indicated by the hon member. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let us not argue about that. Please let us not cast bad aspersions on hon members. We are all hon members in this House. Let us respect each other. It is very important. Raise things in a better context. Staff might want to check whether it has been recorded, but it was spoken away from the microphone; it will not be recorded. Please avoid things like that.

 

Mr R J TAU: Chair, with due respect to your ruling, he says the context is not the one that the hon Nyambi understood. Apartheid education was very painful. I therefore move that the hon member withdraw, because it pains some of us to be reminded of Bantu education. It is painful.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I am going to repeat this: Mr Sinclair, I did not hear you. Mr Tau, as I am sitting here - you are also a presiding officer - I did not hear. I am asking the member fairly: If you said that, could you just withdraw? It does not harm you anyway. I cannot refer to the recordings as this will not have been recorded. What I am saying is that we should not cast such aspersions on hon members. Please, you are wasting the time of the House. [Interjections.]

 

Let us deal with one order first, Mr Mashile. Sit down. Let us deal with one order. Mr Sinclair, are you going to respond?

 

An HON MEMBER: That will be a problem, Chair. He wants to rely on the system ... [Inaudible.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have already said that. Mr Sinclair? [Interjections.]

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Sir, unfortunately, I cannot withdraw something when I am not sure of the context in which it is being raised. That is my only reason, but if you want me to withdraw to take the process forward, I will do so.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. You withdraw that remark. Okay. Let’s move on. Hon Van Lingen?

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: A while ago, the very same hon Tau accused our leader of being a Nazi and we had to go and buy the CDs and get the verbatim record, so your ruling should be the same. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen! Order! I have made a ruling on that issue. Mr Sinclair has apologised. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! Members, take your seats. The ruling has been made. The matter is closed. Let’s move forward with our business.

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG DV; Bloem,DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The staff will give me the results. I will now announce the results. In favour: 32; against: 11. Therefore Vote 8 is agreed to. We now go to Vote 9. Mr Nyambi?

 

Mr A J NYAMBI: Chairperson, I do respect your ruling, but some of us are not taking kindly to just passing something for the sake of it. The insult is still continuing on this side, and it might lead to something else that will turn ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] The hon Gunda wanted to address you. This is because, even now, we are still being insulted. To some of us, apartheid ... [Inaudible.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who is insulting you?

 

Mr A J NYAMBI: The very same Mr Sinclair! He’s justifying what he said.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is his insult about now?

 

Mr A J NYAMBI: He says that he stood by it for the sake of progress. The hon Gunda was prepared to clarify it for you because almost all the people who are on this side would have heard what he said.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Nyambi, could you sit down? I have ruled on that matter. Let’s move on to Vote No 9.

 

Vote No 9 — Government Communication and Information System — put:

 

Declaration of vote:

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Gunda and Mr Sinclair, I will chase both of you out of the House if you continue to dishonour this House! Both of you will leave the House! [Interjections.] Could you continue, hon Bloem?

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I will support that because we are dealing with very serious issues here and I hope that members will behave.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, continue, hon Bloem.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope will not support Vote No 9. This is a very sensitive department, but the manner in which the spokesperson handles and behaves himself is of serious concern to us. We are referring here to Mr Jimmy Manyi. This person’s attitude is totally out of order. He is intolerant, arrogant and is causing unnecessary tension between the different race groups. We believe taxpayers’ money can be spent more productively. We are not supporting this Vote. Thank you very much.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Bloem, we must be careful about attacking officials because they cannot defend themselves in the House. Please be careful about that.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I agree. Let me withdraw the name. I am saying “the person”. I withdraw the name.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All right. Are there any further declarations? No.

 

Vote agreed to (Congress of the People, Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 10 - National Treasury — put:

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are there any declarations? Hon Commissioner?

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chair, we support the Vote but we do have the following to say about National Treasury. When we visit the provinces we find that all provincial treasuries have a problem. This means there is no co-ordination. They must definitely try to adhere to ... [Inaudible.] ... to assist these people.

 

They are pumping in money, but the money is not being spent and one finds that when there is what we call the – Wat is dit? [What is that?] – no, no, if one has to carry the money over to the following year? [Interjections.] Yes, the rollover ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Okay, but do you understand me, ANC? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, okay! Order!

 

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Members of the ruling party, try to listen! [Interjections.] Look at what happened in Limpopo, the Free State and Gauteng. [Interjections.] Those people went ... [Inaudible.] ... until section 100 is being implemented to the other party. It is because of the National Treasury. [Interjections.] They must wake up and try to get their office in order. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any ... Mr Manzini. Which party is that? Oh, Mr Commissioner is from Cope. Why am I confusing members? Okay, Mr Manzini?

 

Mr V M MANZINI: Mnr die Voorsitter ... [Chairperson ...] [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Continue, Mr Manzini. Order, hon members!

 

Mnr V M MANZINI: Die herstrukturering van die voormalige Nasionale Intelligensie Agentskap, NIA ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... insluitend die SA Geheimediens, Sass, en die ander entiteite, naamlik Electronic Communications Security, Comsec, en die akademie, na een entiteit, naamlik die State Security Agency, het onder meer ten doel gehad om ’n besparing op die begrotings teweeg te bring. [Tussenwerpsels.]

 

Een van die vooruitsigte was ’n besparing op personeel. Daarenteen dien die nuwe Wysigingswetsontwerp op Algemene Intelligensiewetgewing voor die ad hoc-komitee. Die sukses van die Minister van Staatsveiligheid se herstruktureringsproses, om op personeeluitgawes te bespaar en om onder meer die duplisering van dienste te vermy, kan nie sonder ’n eie begrotingspos vir staatveiligheid gemeet word nie. Daarmee saam is die proses ook nog nie ten volle afgehandel nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

 

Aangesien die voorgestelde begroting nie enige noemenswaardige besparing teweegbring nie, en dus ook nie meetbaar is nie, kan die DA nie die begroting steun nie. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr V M MANZINI: The restructuring of the National Intelligence Agency, NIA ... [Interjections.] ... including the SA Secret Service, Sass, and the other entities, namely Electronic Communications Security, Comsec, and the academy, into one entity, the State Security Agency, had as its object, amongst others, to effect a saving on the budgets. [Interjections.]

 

One of the prospects was a saving on personnel. On the other hand, the new General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill [B25-11] is now before the ad hoc committee. The success of the restructuring process by the Minister of State Security to save on personnel expenditure and to avoid, amongst others the duplication of services, cannot be measured without a separate Budget Vote for state security. Concomitant with that, the process also has not yet been completely finalised. [Interjections.]

 

As the proposed budget does not effect any significant saving, and therefore is not measureable either, the DA cannot support this budget. Thank you.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Freddie? Order, order, Mr Manzini!

 

Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chair, the member is ... [Inaudible.] ... Intelligence! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The member is what?

 

Mr F ADAMS: The member is talking about National Intelligence, not National Treasury. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] He spoke about National Intelligence. [Laughter.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat, Mr Adams. [Laughter.] Yes, Mrs van Lingen? Are you standing up on a point of order? There’s no speaker on the floor. [Laughter.]

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, in the National Assembly, National Treasury had two declarations listed: one for Intelligence and one for National Treasury. [Interjections.] Unfortunately, in this particular case, we have not been given the opportunity for the hon Lees to present our declaration on the National Treasury Vote. So I’m asking that you withdraw the declaration made by the hon Manzini on our behalf ... [Interjections.] ... and that a proper one be done by the hon Lees. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order! Ms Van Lingen, if you check the schedule with regard to the issue you are raising, you will see that everything is included in one Vote. So we are dealing with one Vote. There’s no problem if you want to withdraw the declaration that has been made by Mr Manzini. [Interjections.]

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: ... [Inaudible.] ... hon Lees’s proper one. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Pardon? [Interjections.]

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I can’t hear, hon members! [Interjections.]

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, Mr Manzini presented the wrong declaration. [Interjections.] The hon Lees is supposed to do that.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, unfortunately I cannot do that. You should have sorted that out yourselves. [Interjections.] Order! Order! We will now go to the voting on Vote No 10. [Interjections.]

 

I’m sorry, hon Chaane, they say that you want to make a declaration. Are you making a declaration? Is it Charl De Beer? No? Okay. Mr Chaane, are you making a declaration? You will be given time.

 

Mr T E CHAANE: Chair, in response to the declaration by Cope, I rise on behalf of the ANC to indicate that all the departments are equal in our government, and National Treasury does not have supervisory powers over other departments. However, in the spirit of intergovernmental relations, it can only engage other parties as to how far they can do certain things in compliance with the law.

 

One would advise the hon Makhubela to perhaps familiarise himself with the roles and responsibilities of the National Treasury.

 

With regard to the declaration by the other colleague, it is quite clear that it was irrelevant and has been withdrawn.

 

I would like to conclude by stating this truth: If one wanted to find out what the quality of the fabric of one’s garment was, one would have to wash it over and over. It will soon shed its colour and show its true colour and quality. That is becoming true of the DA. I thank you. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Voting will commence on Vote No 10.

 

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 33 Adams, F; Bloem, DV; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB;  Gamede, DD, Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z ;   Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 11 – Public Enterprises – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, Cope supports the Budget Vote but would like to raise a few serious concerns for record purposes. The continual bailout of some state-owned entities such as SAA and Denel presents serious challenges to the credibility and workability of some of these business models. However, the general performance of the state-owned companies, SOCs, under the auspices of the department is poor.

 

Whilst the Minister has shown courage in tackling the huge salary structure packages of executives, we need to address the issue of remuneration across state-owned companies. Despite the move, the Minister has shown demonstrable leadership in addressing systems issues to address improved performances. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Mr J M BEKKER: Hon Chair, the Minister of Finance, Mr Pravin Gordhan, stated the following: “Government will strengthen financial management in the public sector, pursue value for money with the greatest possible vigour and ensure that taxpayers’ money is well used.”

 

The Minister further said that government needed to activate both public and private sector energies, specifically referring to infrastructure programmes and support for industrial development and spatial economic zones. With this in mind, it is most disturbing that the Department of Public Enterprises’ budget allocation has been steadily declining over the years. For the 2012-2013 financial year, the department has been allocated approximately R1º249,1 billion, which reflects an increase from the previous financial year of R353,3 billion.

 

Do not let this amount fool you. Of this R1 249,1 billion, about R1 050 billion is earmarked for transfers. The Public Enterprises’ budget cannot be used for continual bailouts of failing state-owned companies and therefore the DA cannot support this Budget Vote.

 

Mr M P JACOBS: Chair, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Let me just give clarity on the purpose of the state-owned enterprises. State-owned enterprises were not created to maximise profits or incur losses. Rather, their existence is for the purpose of driving the developmental agenda. I think what Mr Feldman has said cannot come from him as a previous member of the ANC. The previous government is the government that developed the whites to where they are today, through state-owned enterprises like the railways and the Korporasie.

 

Most of the farmers were assisted by the Korporasie - the initiative of the government in terms of Standard Bank, Sanlam and so on. This means that there is nothing wrong with what we are doing as the government of the ANC, because we also need to develop our own people through this ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Feldman? Order, hon Jacobs.

 

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, on a point of order: I agree that I am in the same committee as the hon Jacobs, but it seems to me that although he is in the committee he is not there because he does not understand. Thank you.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, hon Feldman, you have made your declaration of vote. [Interjections.] Continue, Mr Jacobs.

 

Mr M P JACOBS: Thank you, Chair, for coming to my rescue. I think he understands what I mean, because if he is doing what he is doing, then I do not believe that his own organisation will succeed. We want to empower everybody with skills and also with financial capabilities. Thank you.

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 12 – Public Service and Administration – put.

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 13 – Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 14: Arts and Culture – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER: Mr Chair, the financial mismanagement of Downtown Music Hub, DMH, remains a major challenge in the attainment of a clean audit for the NAC. An amount of R18,5 million has been spent on the DMH over a period of five years, but the special-purpose vehicle set up to run the studio has never materialised and has not produced financial accounts for the past three years. The DAC did not seek permission from the Minister of Finance to own the studios and therefore the amount is regarded as irregular wasteful expenditure.

 

Die DA ondersteun die bewaring van kunstenaars se musiekgeskiedenis ten volle, maar daar moet deeglik besin word oor hoe dit optimaal gedoen moet word. Slimmer beleggings kan egter tot groter voordeel vir die ontwikkeling van belowende kunstenaars lei. Die opname-bedryf in ons land is baie kompeterend en huisateljees beskik oor die nuutste digitale tegnologie wat nodig is vir kwaliteitopnames. Hierdie ateljees is ook makliker beskikbaar vir kunstenaars uit die plattelandse dele van die land.

 

Die departement het R46 miljoen vir konsultante begroot, terwyl vakante poste nie gevul kon word nie. Amptenare se vaardighede moet verskerp word sodat die uitermatige gebruik van konsultante nie nodig sal wees nie. Die DA kan dus nie die begrotingspos ondersteun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

 

[The DA fully supports the preservation of the musical history of artists, but careful consideration needs to be given to how this should be done to optimal effect. More intelligent investment, however, could result in greater benefit regarding the development of promising artists. The recording industry in our country is very competitive and home-based studios are equipped with the latest digital technology required for producing quality recordings. These studios are also more accessible to artists from the rural parts of our country.

 

The department has budgeted R46 million for consultants, while vacant posts could not be filled. The skills of officials need to be enhanced so that the excessive use of consultants will not be necessary. Consequently the DA is not able to support the Vote. I thank you.]

 

Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon Chairperson, Arts and Culture continues to make significant strides in positioning the culture and the creative industries as the main drivers of economic growth and job creation in our country. It is important that the ANC government proceeds on this path by drawing lessons from other countries and how they have used their arts and culture and heritage sectors to promote greater social cohesion as a prerequisite for building more prosperous societies.

 

The ANC government, in terms of Arts and Culture, is informed by the realisation that societies with greater social cohesion tend to be the ones that are economically prosperous. Therefore, it is against this background that in April 2011 a national consultative summit, the Mzanzi Golden Economy on the Role of Arts and Culture and the Heritage Sectors in the Economy, was convened in Johannesburg.

 

Our culture and heritage are key to nation-building and social cohesion. Therefore they are the ingredients in creating the climate and social stability for economic growth. We cannot run away from the fact that Arts and Culture are playing a healing role through promoting reconciliation. The ANC government’s approach to culture is premised on international standards in terms of which culture is understood as an important component of national life that enhances all of our freedoms. Culture should not be used as a mechanism of exclusion or a barrier between people, nor should cultural practices be reduced to ethnic or religious chauvinism.

 

Ours is indeed no simple task. Given the ease with which arts and culture and heritage may be abused for sectional purposes, the opportunity now presents itself for us to rise above the pettiness of selfish practices. The enthusiasm with which the new national flag was greeted tells us that it is possible to find common ground. We should remember that during 2011, a total of 365 000 people were employed. This is the country’s best performance since the recession began in 2008. The ANC supports Budget Vote 14. So there is no crisis. [Applause.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 15 – Basic Education – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope will not support this Vote for the simple reason that our education system is in a crisis. After six months into the new academic year, some schools are still without books. How can we support this Vote when the Minister is being taken to court to compel her ... [Interjections.] No, no, man, please, man. [Laughter.] How can we support this Vote when the Minister is being taken to court to compel her to give our children school books?

 

How can we support this Vote when the political head, the Minister, says that she is shocked that some children are still without books? I am also shocked that she is shocked. [Laughter.] We cannot support this Vote when some of our children still study under trees. We cannot support the Vote. I am also shocked. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, the National Development Plan, the NDP, states that “education ... is central to South Africa’s long-term development” and that it is also a core element in eliminating poverty and reducing inequality.

 

What do we need to do to make quality education a reality? We need 25 000 teachers entering our school system per annum. We are budgeting for only 6 800, with absolute inadequate interventions to attract and retain teachers.

 

Every child requires a textbook, but this budget denies 1,95 million learners access to their own textbooks. Every child deserves to attend a school that is safe. The infrastructure budget has been cut by R180 million; this, despite 8 500 schools being housed in unsafe structures.

 

The budget of R16,3 billion represents a 20% increase on last year’s expenditure. The funds are not lacking, but the right priorities, the right plan and adequate capacity to implement certainly are.

 

The DA cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]

 

Ms M G BOROTO: Chair, let me first assist Cope. They must know that what happened in Limpopo was not actually the responsibility of the national department. The national department went to Limpopo because, as the ANC, we wanted to see that our learners were not being left behind. Therefore, there was a need for an intervention. They must be able to respect the interventions that take place.

 

The Minister of Basic Education has tabled the intervention in the department in the Eastern Cape. We believe that it’s important that every door of learning should be open to all. The objective of this intervention, if Cope and the DA didn’t know about this intervention, is to arrest and deal with the immediate challenges. That is what is happening.

 

In respect of the appointment of teachers that was referred to by the hon De Villiers, we are also talking about an allocation to implement a credible learner performance strategy. We are addressing, again, the underlying impact of the efficiency and efficacy of the department, with a particular focus on organisational performance.

 

I’m surprised when you talk about planning and when you talk about the 25 000 educators. Only yesterday the national executive committee, the NEC, of the DA in this very province dropped a bombshell about the closure of schools in the Western Cape. That’s something that we are not going to take lightly. [Interjections.] So the DA cannot talk about more teachers while they are closing schools in areas where black people reside, knowing that they don’t have any transport. [Interjections.]

 

We are also not going to allow talk about unsafe structures while we know that there is an intervention. This is on record, and the hon De Villiers serves on this committee. He has heard of the progress that has been made to eradicate mud schools. Let’s not forget what we’ve inherited and that it’s still there. As the ANC government, we are doing all we can to make sure that every child in this country receives an education.

 

As the ANC we present the 2012 Budget Vote on the foundation laid by the President of this Republic in his state of the nation address. The President did not direct new strategy priorities that the Department of Basic Education should focus on, but instead he highlighted the progress and challenges that needed more focused attention. Therefore we say the intervention is important. We support the Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 28: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

NOES - 16: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; Bloem, DV; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Makhubela, MW; Mlenzana, Z; Sinclair, KA; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Congress of the People, Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 16 – Health – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, what do we need to do to provide quality and accessible health care to all South Africans? That is the question. By the Minister’s own admission ... [Inaudible.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Let them just sort out your microphone. Okay, carry on now.

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: What do we need to do to provide quality and accessible health care to all South Africans? By the Minister’s own admission, we need to triple the number of health care professionals. However, the human resources allocation reflects a mere 7,35% increase. This is absolutely inadequate. We need an efficient, accountable and financially responsible Department of Health.

 

The department has, however, regressed to a qualified audit report owing to, amongst other reasons, incurring irregular expenditure of R33,2 million; incurring fruitless expenditure of R2,5 million; financial mismanagement; uncompetitive and unfair procurement processes; noncompliance with laws and regulations; and a lack of accountability and good governance.

 

The budget of R27,5 billion represents a 6% increase on last year’s expenditure. The funds are available. The right governance, administration and competencies to use these resources are, however, lacking. No society can prosper without an affordable, high-quality and easily accessible health care system that allows people to reach their potential, follow their dreams and care for their families. The government is failing to deliver this promise for a better South Africa. The DA cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope supports Budget Vote 16 on Health. I think that it is our duty to raise our concerns regarding the recent disturbing news about the shortage of antiretroviral therapy in six provinces. Cope is deeply concerned about the outcome of this shortage. Treatment adherence is closely correlated with viral suppression. Millions of lives are at risk. South Africans living with HIV and Aids are dealing with horrible side-effects.

 

Eighty-five percent of HIV-positive people on antiretrovirals, ARVs, are now faced with nonadherence as a result of the shortage. This will reverse the gains made; contribute to the progression of Aids; and lead to the development of multidrug resistance and death. It is our view that the taxpayers’ money can be spent more wisely and productively. We will support the Budget Vote. Thank you, Chair.

 

Ms B V MNCUBE: Hon Chairperson, allow me to respond to the hon De Villiers on the ANC-led government transforming the health care sector. Currently, health care is one of the five priorities of this administration. This is because we are responding to the need to make access to quality health care available to all citizens irrespective of socioeconomic status, race, gender, geography and other characteristics that were once used during the apartheid era to discriminate against our people.

 

You have just reminded me that the big hospital is the Baragwanath Hospital. Then we have two general hospitals in town – one for blacks and the other one for whites. As a black person, should you be involved in an accident in town, you would be taken to the Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto instead of the other general hospital because of race.

 

The government is also introducing the National Health Insurance Scheme to address cases such as the one of a couple where the wife worked for government and had a medical aid. The husband was not working. When they were both involved in an accident, the wife was taken to the better hospital while the husband was driven for 20km to 50km to access a medical facility. So, we welcome all the efforts by the department to resolve our health care crisis in line with ANC policy, namely to provide all South Africans with access to quality health care.

 

The introduction and the fast-tracking of the developments in this sector ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your time has expired, hon member.

 

Ms B V MNCUBE: The ANC supports Budget Vote 16. Thank you.

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 33: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z ; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 17 - Higher Education and Training – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Higher Education and Training has a crucial role to play in providing employable candidates for the job market. In this regard, the management and governance of higher education and training institutions are of the utmost importance.

 

Institutions such as the Central University of Technology, CUT, the Vaal University of Technology, VUT, the Tshwane University of Technology, TUT, the Walter Sisulu University and the University of KwaZulu-Natal are faced with a number of problems. This is an indication that higher education institutions are not functioning at the level that they should be.

 

Although the Minister has initiated some interventions by appointing assessors and administrators, there are still questions about the effectiveness of some of these administrators and assessors. An example of this is the fact that the dismissed vice chancellor of TUT has been reinstated to the position of deputy vice chancellor as at 1 June 2012, despite his fraudulent PhD. How could an administrator appointed by the Minister allow this to happen?

 

For students to enter the job market they need to complete their courses successfully. But it is totally counterproductive if the department is not able to ensure that successful candidates receive their certificates. In some instances students have been waiting for more than two years, and this prevents them from entering the job market or starting their own businesses. This is not only extremely unfair towards the students but is also a disservice to the country’s economy.

 

These are only a few of the problems faced by Higher Education and Training. In this light, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you, Chairperson.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope cannot support this Budget Vote.

 

We do not support Vote No 17 for the following reasons. The Minister of Higher Education and Training has failed to provide leadership and to intervene in the crisis gripping the University of KwaZulu-Natal. Instead of showing good leadership and heeding the call to intervene, he decided to run away from the explosive situation. He delegated the leadership role of diffusing the explosive situation to the Council on Higher Education, CHE.

 

The department still has to achieve its objectives of 2010-11. We have witnessed violent student protests around accommodation, academic exclusion and fee increments while, in real terms, state funding declines.

 

The Minister’s plans remain on paper. The Further Education and Training colleges, FETs, have been the focus of the Minister but, each year, South Africans witness long queues of both parents and students outside universities. How is the Minister dealing with the perception that FETs provide inferior education?

 

The Minister also runs his department through ministerial commissions and committees. When is he planning to take over the reins? This will save taxpayers’ money amounting to millions of rand. Taxpayers are unable to afford this high-living Minister and the commissions and committees. We won’t support this Vote. Thank you very much, Chair.

 

Mr T L MAKUNYANE: Hon Chair, I think it is quite important that we get our ducks in a row. We must know that the Minister of Higher Education and Training does not make decisions on the basis of what appears in newspapers. Every time there are allegations in the newspapers they only serve to bring to his attention whatever is being said by the newspapers. But then he has to do an investigation and make a decision on the basis of that investigation and recommendations. He thus makes an informed decision. So, for Cope to sit there and make allegations that he is not acting here and he is not acting there ... I think they are beginning to reflect something that we have always suspected: echoing their master’s voice. [Interjections.]

 

I wish to say that the ANC supports the Vote. In support of that, I would like to point out that the ANC will always work to promote the objective of our national democratic revolution, which is to unite all South Africans behind a vision of a united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa.

 

President Nelson Mandela once pointed out that massive poverty and obscene inequality are such terrible scourges of our times that they have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid as social ills. The ANC needs to use this budget to quantify the costs and implement measures to eradicate these social ills.

 

Fellow South Africans, if truth be told, we cannot boldly tackle the current challenges of our education system without interrogating the painful past. The question today is whether the ANC-led government has achieved a single, united and diversified education and training system in which all people enjoy equal opportunities. The ANC supports the Vote. [Time expired.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 28: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 16: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; Bloem, DV; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Makhubela, MW; Mlenzana, Z ; Sinclair, KA ; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 18 — Labour — put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, Cope supports the Budget Vote. However, we would like to put on record that the labour centres in this country leave a lot to be desired. On a recent oversight visit by Members of Parliament to a number of labour centres around the country, a number of Unemployment Insurance Fund beneficiaries complained of not having received their benefits for an extended period of time. I thank you.

 

Mr J M BEKKER: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Labour’s first priority should be to help create jobs for more people. In short, Minister Oliphant should be putting more people to work and, in order to do so, she must do two things: get her department functioning properly and enact the necessary labour reforms to create more jobs. On both fronts, the Minister has failed.

 

I would like to focus the attention of this House on the turnaround strategy for the Compensation Fund and Information and Communications Technology, ICT, strategy for the department. These programmes are vital indicators of the effectiveness of the department. Unfortunately, nearly R2 billion has to be spent over 10 years to address the IT needs of the department through a public-private partnership with the Siemens company, but there is very little to show for the money and the effort.

 

As for the Compensation Fund, I have a list of cases of frustrated people who have turned to the DA for help with their Compensation Fund and UIF problems. In my assessment, the department is failing to effect successful turnarounds in these vital programmes and others, constraining the effectiveness of the Department of Labour in general.

 

On top of that, the Minister is engaged in a process to review our labour legislation to make it even more constraining than it already is. This will kill jobs and increase unemployment. We cannot support an appropriation to a Minister and a department involved in such activities. For these reasons, the DA cannot support the budget. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, I think the DA’s behaviour is not a surprise. An example took place here in the House in regard to Vote No 10: National Treasury, when one member of the DA proposed something and then the DA itself proposed to withdraw that because it’s black. [Interjections.] That is why it happened to the workers here. The ANC rises to support the Budget Vote. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There is a point of order.

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Manzini is an hon member, and he is not an hon member because of his race. Please, Chairperson, I want to ask you to ask the hon member to withdraw that statement. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What should be withdrawn?

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, he must withdraw the implication that the situation occurred because the hon Manzini is black. The DA ... [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order, hon members!

 

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: The DA ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! Mr Sibande, could you refer to hon Manzini as “an hon member”.

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: Yes, he is an hon member, but he is black. [Laughter.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I know. It is all right, but he is an hon member.

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: The ANC rises to support the Budget Vote.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Lees?

 

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, on a point of order: I request that the hon member withdraw the remark that the hon Manzini’s speech was asked to be withdrawn because he was black. That is racist, and I ask for that remark to be withdrawn, please.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, I will check the Hansard and make a ruling on that. Continue, hon member.

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: The ANC rises to support the Budget Vote. In its 2009 election manifesto, the ANC identified the creation of decent work opportunities and sustainable livelihoods as one of the five strategic development priority areas for the next five years and resolved that these priorities would be tackled with all the means at our disposal: the resources of government, the vision of the Freedom Charter, and the energy and commitment of our people. The draft National Development Plan identified several key objectives, which include, amongst other things, improving the functioning of the labour market, particularly to help young people access work. If we are to succeed in putting our economy on a more rapid and inclusive growth path to 2030, we need to effectively direct and manage the levers of change – levers that activate both public and private sector energies and capabilities.

 

With global unemployment at historically high levels, there has never been a greater need to put employment at the centre of economic and social policies. Even among those who work, the extent of poverty underscores the need for a far greater number of productive and decent jobs. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 33: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 19 – Social Development – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, the Department of Social Development is failing our children. The Children’s Act is the most important piece of legislation that deals with vulnerable children. The department’s own costing report clearly stipulates that if we were to provide quality services to all our children, we would need 66 329 social workers for the Children’s Act alone. The entire country only has 16 504 social workers for all legislation. This represents a shortfall of over 75%.

 

One of the consequences of the ANC decade of denialism with regards to HIV and Aids is that we now have over 3 million orphans in our country. The ANC has failed these children and their parents once before, and the DA will not allow them to be failed again through a lack of social workers and services.

 

Substance abuse is another major area in which the department is failing miserably. As the lead department, we should be ensuring that the Central Drug Authority has teeth and muscle, and that the national campaign, Ke Moja, is known in every house across the country. This campaign fails in terms of strategic objectives and remains a black hole in many communities and households.

 

Yet, we have a toothless and made-palatable CDA in which even departments such as Basic Education, Justice and Constitutional Development, and Sport and Recreation could not be bothered to submit their annual mini drug master plans. In addition, the Ke Moja campaign is all but dead.

 

Minister, we simply cannot continue with “business as usual” in your department. Children are being failed every day on several fronts. Until your department shows its commitment to the children of this country, the DA cannot support Budget Vote 19. I thank you, Chairperson.

 

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 19: Social Development, for the following reasons. The Minister of Social Development has done a lot. She has held roadshows that have dealt with drug abuse and the trafficking of children. Also, the Minister is working very hard to try to deal with access to liquor by children by making it difficult for them to access liquor, as we have seen that it is the cause of social ills in our children.

 

With all these social ills among our children, the Minister is working very hard to improve conditions at early childhood development centres to make sure that all our children are properly educated and for them to make the correct decisions when they have to make decisions. Therefore, we cannot accept that the Minister is actually failing our children, when she is trying so hard to make sure that our children are safer. She is also going on these roadshows to raise awareness of drug abuse, especially, as we know, given that that it is rife in the Western Cape.

We are making serious strides in ensuring that we deal with drug abuse so that it does not affect our children. The ANC really supports this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 20 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER: Mr Chair, a good player plays where the ball is; a great player plays where the ball is going to be. The government’s steps to support high-performance athletes have been inadequate and short-sighted.

 

Scientific support received a boost. However, when it comes to supporting our athletes representing our nation at major international tournaments, such as the Olympic Games, the government drops the ball. Athletes who have sacrificed so much were scrambling around and appealing to all sponsors to raise funds to represent South Africa. Financial maladministration, such as Cricket South Africa’s saga, also remains cause for concern. Sport has the potential to bring people together and it builds the pride of a nation, but the government is not making the most of these opportunities, and sportsmen and sportswomen are paying the penalty. The DA can thus not support this Budget Vote.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Cope will support Budget Vote 20, but we must raise some concerns. This Minister is really not in control of this department. When you look at the sporting codes, it is very worrying. One just has to look at the SA Football Association, Safa, and look at the performance of Bafana Bafana.

 

The Minister promised to introduce school sports. We are still waiting for them - that is how we develop sportswomen and sportsmen.

 

Now the Minister wants to spend R17 million to bring an artist from abroad to a function. He wants to bring out Beyoncé for a function, when we don’t have proper sports facilities in our townships. The Minister must get his priorities right. We will support the Vote, but we cannot support R17 million for Beyoncé. Thank you very much.

 

Mr V M MANZINI: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for the hon Adams to call the hon Bloem “Bloomers”? [Laughter.] This is not the first time. I think we have to respect that garment.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Bloem, take your seat. Order! Hon Adams, did you say that?

 

Mr F ADAMS: Chair, I didn’t specifically mention Mr Bloem. I never mentioned anyone. I was sitting here and said “bloomers”. That’s all.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, answer my question. Did you say that?

 

Mr F ADAMS: Yes.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Withdraw that, please.

 

Mr F ADAMS: I withdraw, Chair. [Laughter.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I have given a ruling, Mr Bloem. Let’s continue. I have made a ruling on the matter.

 

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, he is stuck in the old days. “Bloomers” have changed to “panties”. [Laughter.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Hon members, let us continue, please.

 

Mr R J TAU: Chair, I hope my child is not watching this. [Laughter.] I think it is quite disappointing for an hon member, particularly from Cope, to raise an objection or make a declaration on a Vote when he knows very well that there is no way that the department is in control of Safa. The nation cannot be misled like that.

 

Let us know our facts and let us know exactly what it is that the department must do, what Safa must do, what Cricket SA must do ... rugby, whatever – what all these boards or sports-code controlling bodies are supposed to do and what their relationship is with the department. You cannot therefore want to say certain things about a Vote on the basis that the department is not whipping Safa and Bafana Bafana. How do you then bring in the Minister regarding the selection team of Bafana Bafana? It is also ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Mlenzana?

 

Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order in that the hon member is unfortunately arguing outside what Cope was raising.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mlenzana, that is not a point of order. Sit down, please. Continue, hon member.

 

Mr R J TAU: Regarding the second issue: if the hon member’s child was really watching the proceedings, I think that poor child would be very disappointed, because the father representing the party in Parliament is also misleading the poor child by saying that the department had not made any effort and also that the department had not set aside money in its budget and its strategic plan for school sports. This is because there is a programme, which is being phased in, with a specific emphasis on rural schools. Therefore, I would really be ashamed if I was the child listening to my father speaking about this.

 

On the last issue of Beyoncé, I think the Minister is on record as saying that he would appreciate having that on the menu. But there is no budget of R17 million for Beyoncé. It is a media issue that has been made public. There is no budget in the strategic plan of the department for Beyoncé to be brought to South Africa at a cost of R17 million for the awards in November. Therefore, as the ANC, we support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 21 – Correctional Services – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, Cope will support the budget but it has the following to say. With regard to the recent pardoning of parolees and prisoners by the President, I wonder if an investigation was done before releasing them. This is because 47 of them are back in their cells. We call on the Minister to first compile a list and then give it to the President, because the President cannot guess who is supposed to get what. But he can decide on their pardoning based on the background of the prisoners. Thank you.

 

Mr V M MANZINI: Hon Chair, the DA supports this Vote but with serious reservations. We do not believe that the budget is properly aligned with the White Paper. We believe that seven years after the adoption of the White Paper, the focus of the department remains on warehousing rather than on rehabilitating offenders. But, chiefly, we remain concerned about the levels of corruption, maladministration and wasteful expenditure in the department.

 

In particular, we do not believe that a special remission is the way to deal with prison overcrowding. We will give the Minister the benefit of the doubt this year, but she will need to show much more determination to turn the department around if she wants our support next year. I so move.

 

Mong T M H MOFOKENG: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo, haholoholo ha e le mona Mokomishenare a hlokometse hore lefapheng lena ha ho na di-ovorolo. Re tshehetsa ditekanyetso tsa lefapha ka kutlwisiso ya hore di sututswa ke maano a mokgatlo o moholo wa ANC, ho ntlafatsa maemo a maphelo a batho ba rona, le ho aha Afrika Borwa e se nang kgethollo. Ka hoo, re re re tshehetsa ditekanyetso tsa lefapha. Ke a leboha! (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Thank you, Chairperson, especially when the Commissioner has realised that in this department there are no overalls. We support this Budget of the department with the understanding that it is driven by the policies of a big organisation, the ANC, to improve the standard of living of our people as well as to build a South Africa free of discrimination. Therefore, we say we support this Budget of the department. Thank you.]

 

Vote agreed to.

 

Vote No 22 – Defence and Military Veterans – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, the previous hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans effectively turned the Defence Force into a state beyond proper oversight by Parliament. We do not know everything about the Defence Force. There is too much confidential information and, at times, the Minister refused to reply to questions in Parliament.

 

The department has been briefed but with limited information and sometimes it has appeared as if the department itself was in the dark. The information on capital expenditure and projects by the Defence Force remains a concern. The Defence Force provides peacekeeping forces to African states, and we should be able to take pride in that.

 

We have therefore called for a division. This is a demonstration of our strong opposition to the fact that the previous Minister was allowed to turn the Defence Force into a state beyond proper oversight by Parliament. It is an absolute disgrace that the Minister was allowed to undermine Parliament. The reshuffle was necessary and was long overdue. For the sake of South Africa and our proud image, the DA hopes that the department will improve in the future. I thank you, hon Chair.

 

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, Cope supports the budget but has the following to say. The military curriculum and the training methods should be reviewed, because injuries and fatalities have occurred in the past two to three years. We need the Minister to take steps to minimise these types of fatalities and injuries. Thank you.

 

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I stand in support of the Vote. I also wish to state that from 1994 to date, we have brought together men and women who were fighting and shooting at each other. Now, these men and women have been brought into the same barracks and sleep next to each other. They don the same uniform. They also fly the same flag and sing a common national anthem.

 

It is my plea that we should make sure that we do not politicise the SA National Defence Force. Having said that, I also wish to submit that we support this budget because of the integration process – the difference that the budget is going to make to the process of integration.

 

We are mindful of the challenges that the SANDF is facing currently, in particular with regard to transformation. That is a programme that the committee and the Ministry should be seized with because we still have to transform the various sectors of the SANDF, particularly the air force and the navy. Progress has taken place within the military, the SA Army and the SA Military Health Service, Samhs.

 

With respect to the point that was raised about the confidentiality of the information that is provided by the Ministry, it is true that when the Minister or the General of the SANDF has to disseminate confidential information, we, as Members of Parliament, have to ask for permission to hold this type of meeting behind closed doors. There are provisions in the Rules of Parliament that any committee that has to discuss confidential matters may apply for permission in order to get ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your time has expired, hon member.

 

Mr S D MONTSITSI: On the last issue, the fact that the Minister undermines ... The Minister has been very proactive in interacting with the committee. There is no way in which the Minister could undermine the committee or undermine Parliament.

 

Lastly, the Defence Review ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, your time has expired.

 

Mr S D MONTSITSI: I just want to say the Defence Review is looking at the issues that the hon Makhubela ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, your time has expired.

 

Mr S D MONTSITSI: We support the Vote. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 33: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 23 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 24 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, the DA acknowledges that the Minister is trying his best to hold the line against people who try to reject and argue about the separation of powers. The Minister also tried to advance the separation of powers and the status of our Constitution. However, it is one thing to create a truly independent judiciary, but it is another thing if it has no substance because it is manipulated. We should not compromise on what we agreed to in terms of the rights enshrined in our Constitution.

 

The efforts that the department has made to receive unqualified audits are noted. Service delivery through the court system is a cause for concern. Cases are postponed and delayed, dockets still disappear and, of course, the identity document system needs to be upgraded. Interdependence, in terms of co-operation and better co-ordination between state departments, must be promoted. After 1994 South Africa opted for a constitutional democracy, which is an inclusive and participative democracy from which all the people should benefit. The DA will vote against the Budget Vote. Thank you, Mr Chair.

 

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, Cope supports the budget but has the following to say. Fifteen years down the line, the magisterial boundaries or jurisdiction still follow those of the old order. This is not in line with service delivery, because we have to drive long distances – 70 kilometres to 80 kilometres - every day to transport prisoners to court. The issue of Nguni languages does not need to be emphasised – it is law. Thank you, Chairperson.

 

Mr A G MATILA: Chair, I think my colleagues from the opposition are ignorant of the fact that if we take the Magistrates’ Commission, it is lily-white and men only. That is the first problem. Regarding the commission, if we take what has been presented to us today here in Parliament, only black magistrates have been targeted. If you go to all the magistrates’ courts, they are run, in most cases, by white males who suppress certain issues and focus only on specific things. Criminal matters are dealt with by blacks. They deal with the rest because they are making money out of doing so. Now, this is a challenge because we need to transform this area. The judges themselves are from the old order and in most cases they are white males who suppress this particular process, because they are protecting the DA. That is why they run to court for everything. We support the Vote. Thank you, Chair. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, may I rise on a point of order?

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Nobody has the floor. What is the point of order?

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, the remarks by the previous speaker were very serious.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Which speaker was that?

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: The hon member from the ANC.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s hear that.

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: He said that judges made rulings to protect the DA. That is a very serious indictment of the constitutional prerogative of the independence of the judiciary. I really believe that the hon member must withdraw that.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will check the contents of Hansard and come back to that.

 

Mr J J GUNDA: Sorry, Chair, we cannot allow this to go on – this thing that we keep on hearing about Bantu education. The hon Sinclair never had that feeling; he never had that pain, and he keeps on repeating this, Chair. We cannot allow this: He keeps on telling us about Bantu education as if we were baboons and stupid. We are not stupid, Chair!

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What did he say now?

 

Mr J J GUNDA: He said again that it was because of Bantu education that we did it like that. He said that, Chair.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Sinclair, could you please leave the House? [Applause.] Please leave the House.

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chair, with all due respect, may I address you on the issue?

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have gradually warned you on this. Could you quietly leave the House, please?

 

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chair, may I just say that I didn’t say what the hon member said. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Could you please leave the House? [Interjections.] You are causing great disorder in the House. We are dealing with very serious business here.

 

Vote No 25 – Police – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, poor leadership, improper leadership and unlawful conduct by leaders, which have amounted to maladministration, have brought the police’s name down. This includes irregular expenditure, promotions that are questionable, the use of vehicles that is questionable, crime intelligence that has sometimes been chaotic, the private residences of certain high-ranking officials, the attempted bribes of journalists and the assault and intimidation issues hanging over Mdluli’s head.

The report of the police’s annual general meeting confirms that the Police Service has not met its targets in building more police stations. The tenders became questionable. Also, the basic lack of resources at police stations is a big question.

 

I think what is important and what I am trying to say is that the image of the police needs to be restored, and we are glad that the new commissioner has taken note of what was said in the budget debates regarding the police not responding to our cases.

 

There are too many murders a day, too many court cases and claims against the police, too many suspensions of police officials, accounting for over R8 million, and there are too many people without firearms, be it in the SA Police Service or the community. The police must become visible. The records say that one in three calls to the police goes unanswered.

 

The DA supports the appointment of the commissioner and hopes that the next budget will be more positive. But, for today, this year, we are not able to support the Budget Vote. I thank you, hon Chair.

 

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, Cope does support the budget of the Police Service, but we have the following to say. The Minister, in order to support the new national police commissioner, must take a caterpillar and demolish that “Table Mountain” of generals in Pretoria. The President can appoint anybody there, even me. If that mountain is still there, blocking those two levels, I am calling ... I am not saying they must be chased away. No, we need rationalisation. We told those generals this during the cluster meeting on provinces. The Minister must do that with immediate effect. That structure must be reviewed in order to support Riah Phiyega. I thank you.

 

Mong T M H MOFOKENG: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. Ke batla ho qala ka hore re tshehetsa ditekanyetso tsena mme dintho tsohle tseo ho buuwang ka tsona ke ditho tse pedi tsa leloko, tseo e leng diphephetso lefapheng. Molaetsa ona o fetiseditswe ho lefapha le Letona mme hoo bontshang maikemisetso a hore ba sebetsana le tse ding tsa dintho, ke ho kgethwa ha Komishenara ya Setjhaba, Mme Ria Phiyega, mme o entse kano ya hore tse ding tsa dintho tseo ho buuwang ka tsona, o tla sebetsana le tsona kahoo re re a fuwe monyetla wa ho sebetsana le tsona ho fihlela a tlo tla tlaleha ha a se a di lokisitse. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to start by saying that we support this budget and everything that has been mentioned by the two previous speakers of the organisation which are a challenge for the department. The message has been passed on to the department and the Minister and an indication of the intention to work through some of the things is the appointment of the national commissioner, Mrs Riah Phiyega, and she has made the commitment that some of the things that have been mentioned she will deal with. Therefore we say she must be given the opportunity to deal with them. Then she can come and give a report when she has sorted them out. Thank you. [Applause.]]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 26 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, the DA hereby wishes to declare its opposition to the Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries budget. It is unthinkable to hand a large portion of South Africa’s taxpayers’ money to a department that is rudderless. I hope you like the pun. It’s like the fishing fleet at Simon’s Town, which now has to be ... [Inaudible.] ... as a function of remarkably weak leadership.

 

The Minister has demonstrated her incompetence at a number of levels: threatening rural livelihoods and the sustainability of the fishing industry with hotchpotch schemes. As I alluded to in my budget speech, there is no abalone and all the crayfish have been stolen, and the money for any fish that is confiscated goes to the department.

 

We cannot accept this budget, unless the hon Minister does the honourable thing and resigns. I have a form here. It just needs a signature and it will be done. Here it is. Thank you, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

 

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Chairperson, I am very worried about what the hon Worth said, because the hon Mabe said that the hon Worth was at the meetings of the committee. He never opposed anything in the meeting. So now he is trying to impress his party.

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: When the Budget Votes were presented, the hon Worth was serving in the ad hoc committee and could not attend those meetings. So, he did not agree to things in those meetings.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, Mrs Van Lingen, that is not a point of order.

 

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: She is misleading the House, Chairperson.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Continue, hon member. Hon Qikani, continue with your speech.

 

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Chairperson, I am worried about the hon member who just spoke now because she is not even a member of the committee. I was just responding to the member of the committee.

 

Of all the programmes contained in the 2012 Budget Vote of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, food security and agrarian reform attempt to address one of the fundamental pillars of the national democratic revolution: agrarian reform. The R1,4 billion that has been appropriated for this programme must be seen within the context of what the ANC-led government has to achieve.

 

Ngoko ke, ngale mali siyifakileyo sizama ukulungisa zonke ezo zinto. I-ANC iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [Therefore, with the funds that we have donated, we are trying to make all these things right. The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 30: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 13: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Mlenzana, Z; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 27 – Communication – put.

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 28 – Economic Development – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Hon Chairperson, firstly, we need to ask if this department is delivering, and it is not. According to ... [Inaudible.]

 

An HON MEMBER: The microphone is not on.

 

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Oh, thank you. Most of the functions of this department can be implemented by the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Finance, etc. The policy positions adopted by this department can also be covered by the National Development Plan.

Since the President announced the R5 billion budget for the youth wage subsidy programme in 2010, this department has been incapable of implementing it, despite the hunger for jobs with an estimated 7 million people without work.

 

Nothing in the New Growth Path is new. Many of its components are ignored, for instance the case of the lower interest rates by the Governor of the Reserve Bank. On the microeconomic side, Minister Patel proposed a series of interesting interventions, very few of which have been taken seriously by any government department or stakeholder. The DA, therefore, cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Mrs M C DIKGALE: Chairperson, the ANC rises in support of the Budget Vote. In dealing with the Budget Vote of Economic Development, we are constantly reminded of the magnitude of the responsibility that this department has been given to oversee the development of the financing of the government that will result in growth, decent work and greater equity. There can be few Budget Votes that are charged with such responsibility and scope.

 

This Budget Vote’s core challenge is dealing with mass joblessness, poverty and inequality. We have to deal with this in the context of a difficult global economic crisis and ensure that we make a difference to the lives of our people. This Vote is about economic development policy and the financing of it through this Vote.

The Vote reflects the alignment of this policy with the political and economic objectives and mandate that the executive set out for government when it established the Department of Economic Development in 2009.

 

Our collective and common point of departure in this debate must, therefore, be that the vote of funds must result in the creation of decent work through inclusive growth and development. We have the responsibility of oversight of the implementation of the New Growth Path, not only by this department but by other departments as well. The challenge is whether or not the microeconomic perspectives of economic development and this Budget Vote meet the requirements of the ANC government’s policies and give substance to the ANC government’s five-year plan of governance.

 

The Budget Vote does reflect the funding of policy priorities of the ANC government, and this can be traced to government programmes and projects in the Vote. In addition, we can see a progression of funding of policy priorities from the 2011 Budget Vote to this one. The Vote has addressed issues of adequacy, given the mandate of the Department of Economic Development, and it reinforces issues of equity, and thus it deals with unemployment and poverty.

 

Finally, this can be traced in the Vote, and the Vote reflects the directives of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement in 2011. The ANC supports Budget Vote 28. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 29 – Energy – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, we are in the midst of an energy crisis in South Africa. This crisis is entirely due to the ... [Inaudible.] ... lack of planning on the part of the ANC government. This energy crisis is making a mockery of our job-creation plans, and it is entirely evident that unless we solve our energy crisis, we will never have any hope of solving our unemployment crisis. The department has simply not done enough to address many of the underlying institutional problems that are holding back decisive action being taken to address this crisis.

 

Absolutely no leadership is being shown on the issue of our failing distribution networks in the country, and there seems to be no political appetite to deal with this ticking time bomb. The integrated energy plan has still not been drawn up, despite our passing the Energy Act four years ago, which explicitly mandated for such a plan. Despite a call over a decade ago for independent power producers to provide 30% of South Africa’s electricity, at present they only account for less than 2%.

 

The DA firmly maintains that South Africans need to become part of our energy solution, but at the moment too much power is centralised by the Minister and Eskom, with disastrous results for our country.

 

Finally, the proposed nuclear build programme remains shrouded in secrecy and the government seems bent on shutting down any debate around the financial viability of this programme, despite the national development plan itself questioning the advisability of such a programme. For these and other reasons, the DA cannot support the Budget Vote.

 

Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect I don’t know what committee the hon Van Lingen attends, or whether we attend the same committee. This is because she is misleading the House to say that the Department of Energy doesn’t have an energy resource plan.

The integrated energy resource plan has been passed. The department has come and briefed the committee on that.

 

The ANC government supports this Budget Vote. The ANC government has done a lot in a short space of time in energy. The past decade has witnessed dramatic change, which was brought about by the ANC government. In the energy sector, priorities in South Africa moved from the apartheid era of single-minded emphasis on energy security to a broader concern about access to affordable energy, economic efficiency and environmental sustainability.

 

The transformative character of energy to improve ordinary people’s lives is fundamental. The DA doesn’t want to improve ordinary people’s lives. Just look at the City of Cape Town, where the DA is in control. They don’t even want to give free basic services, which have been implemented by the ANC government, to the people of the Western Cape. [Interjections.] Specifically in the areas of Gugulethu, Khayelitsha, Hanover Park or Mitchells Plain they cut off the electricity. They put it down. They don’t even want to deliver.

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, hon member! Yes, Mrs Van Lingen? Are you rising on a point of order?

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Yes, Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Adams is misleading the House. The people of Cape Town and the Western Cape get more than their prescribed share of free electricity. [Interjections.]

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I wouldn’t know. Continue, Mr Adams.

 

Mr F ADAMS: No, Chair, I think the hon member meant that the people of Cape Town get more punishment because they are under DA rule, specifically people from the poor areas. We stay in those areas, not the hon Van Lingen. She is not from Cape Town.

 

Now, be it economic or social, energy is the lifeblood of any societal transformation. We have to ensure that energy, as a low-input cost for economic growth, is uppermost in our minds, especially in the context of the current national development planning. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 30 – Environmental Affairs – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 31 – Human Settlements – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the DA objects to the Human Settlements budget for the 2012-13 financial year, because we believe that the budget does not reach the intended purpose of realising the dream of poor beneficiaries, which is of owning quality houses.

 

Over the years the Department of Human Settlements has constantly failed to reach its targets and underperformed in terms of its mandate. While the budget has increased yearly, the target has been decreasing. For example, in the 2010-11 financial year the number of units decreased from 161 800 to 121 800 units.

 

The underexpenditure of the department is endemic. For example, the urban settlement development grant, the USDG, which is allocated for upgrading of informal settlements, has not been spent adequately. Only 57% of this grant was spent in the previous financial year, while the escalating backlog of 2 700 informal settlements has not been addressed.

 

The other important grant is the rural household infrastructure grant, the RHIG, which is supposed to be used to address the rural sanitation and basic services backlog. Only 20% of the allocated R257 million has been spent, while the rural services backlog stands at 2,4 million in sanitation. Some rural areas still don’t have access to water, and some are still using the bucket system, which is unacceptable. Proper plans should be put in place to spend the new allocation of R479,5 million for this financial year.

 

Supply-chain management is another issue of concern and was raised in the Auditor-General’s report. Uncompetitive and unfair procurement processes are still endemic in this department. The issues of fraud, corruption and maladministration are still rife. In conclusion, the DA does not support the budget. I thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, as the ANC we support the Budget Vote. We look forward to the day when they don’t take the posture of opposing anything and everything that comes from the ANC, and give themselves time, when it is time for departments to come and do presentations, to engage in the presentations and not be selective to what they listen to.

 

The 1994 democratic breakthrough ushered in new conditions, providing a unique opportunity to combine state and mass power in serving the interests of the people. This is the 18th year in which the ANC as the ruling party has used its control of state power to improve quality of life and begin to roll back the legacy of apartheid and colonialism.

 

As part of its founding provisions, the Constitution of South Africa draws attention to the value of human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of rights and freedoms. Therefore, the mainstay of the Department of Human Settlements is to address these values through its legislation, policies and programmes.

 

Key to rolling out our government programmes and ensuring the tracking of its successes and priorities is fast-tracking the immediate quantifiable deliverables according to agreements that are in place with the President of the country.

 

The ANC-led government has taken the lead in reorganising and renaming the Housing department the Department of Human Settlements. The ANC is no longer just focusing on providing houses, but is focusing on creating human settlements. We are focusing on how best to settle our people, because, if they remain unsettled, we ourselves may not know peace. As one Afrikaner industrialist put it, and I quote: “If your neighbour is hungry, you cannot sleep.” That is why the ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 32 – Mineral Resources – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the DA will not support this Vote for the general reason that this department ... [Inaudible.] ... of the mining industry has been a failure. The industry that should be driving our economic progress and job creation is stagnating. Last week, it was announced ... [Interjections.] You see, Chairperson, this happens when the DA is talking, but it does not happen ... [Interjections.]

 

Last week, it was announced that the Marikana platinum mine would be closing, along with the loss of 1 500 jobs. Mine owners Aquarius Platinum attributed their first-quarter difficulties to safety stoppages, poor labour productivity and delays in securing mining rights. Two of those are the direct responsibility of this department. The Minister is hinting at reforms, but he is unable to act because of the ANC’s policy conferences. A major part of this economy is being held hostage by internal party politics.

 

Mining production figures in February this year were the lowest in 50 years. Between 2001 and 2011, the industry lost 179 000 jobs. The governing party is showing no clear intention about nationalisation. It is, rather, forfeiting foreign direct investment, which is needed for economic growth and employment, for the dance of Mangaung. That will not solve these very serious issues in the mining industry. It could be very much worse in January 2013. When this government works out how to grow mining, then there will be a chance that the DA will support the spending plans of this department. So, we cannot support the budget. Thank you.

 

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, it is very clear that the DA is either blind or deaf. This is because in the budget presentation and the tabling of the national Budget, the Minister of Finance tabled the Budget Review for the country, clearly stating the position of mining in the economy of South Africa.

 

We have had a global economic downturn and we are connected to it. I hope the hon member understands that. If she doesn’t understand it, she should get a copy of that document in my office. It is available. [Interjections.]

The ANC has placed minerals and energy right at the centre of its socioeconomic and political agenda, committing itself, with even more vigour, to changing the lives of our people for the better. We are speaking of the poor people, the disadvantaged.

 

It is our collective obligation to ensure that our country’s considerable wealth is utilised to generate socioeconomic benefits and integrated development for our nation. Go and read the state of the nation address, hon member. To do this, we need to ensure that our mining industry is socially progressive, environmentally sustainable and economically competitive, and that it is so in the world because we want to export quality and give work to our poor people.

 

There is more urgency now than ever before. The challenge for the developmental state is to ensure that it has the ability and the capacity to lead and shape the national agenda in respect of the mineral resources of this country. The ANC supports Vote 32. [Applause.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 33 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, when the ruling party started in 1994, we were singing “Mayibuye i-Africa; mayibuye i-Africa”, now you are saying, “Mayihambe i-Africa” because the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform is doing very, very little or nothing at all with regard to the restitution of land and everything else. He must pull up his socks so that we can see that Africa is coming back. Thank you. [Laughter.]

 

Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, according to its own objectives, this department is underperforming below the 45% mark. The department does not meet its own deadlines, especially regarding restitution and settlement of claims. At the present rate, it is going to take about a thousand years before land restitution takes place. Land reform projects, in the words of the Minister, have failed by 90%. Until they get all this right, they do not deserve any more budget allocations and should stop apportioning blame on the willing-buyer, willing-seller principle, commercial farmers and even beneficiaries identified by the department itself.

 

Pre- and postsettlement support in training extension services and capital production support are woeful, to say the least, and results in perennial recapitalisation, which is simply not sustainable. Use what you have properly, efficiently, effectively and sustainably. Ensure the productivity of land under new black farmers’ ownership, or lose it. I thank you, Chairperson.

 

Rre G G MOKGORO: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. Ke ema fano mo boemong jwa ANC, ke bua ka tshwetso e e neng ya tsewa mo konferenseng ya bo 52 ya ANC. Tshwetso eo e ne e le ka ga ditlhakolo tse di latelang: Phetolo ya Temothuo; go busediwa ga mafatshe; le tlhabololo ya metse selegae, tseo e leng tsona tse ANC e tlileng go gatang thata mo go tsone.

 

Dintlhakgolo tseo di bonagetse ka ngwaga wa 2010 fa re ne re le kwa Moesha, Moporesitente Zuma le Tona ya Tlhabololo ya Mafatshe, Rre Nkwinti, ba ne ba le teng. Re le ba Lefapha la Tlhabololo ya Mafatshe ra re: Fa tlhabololo e diragalang gona, go nna le porojeke ya tomagano.

 

Rre Worth o ne a le teng, a ka netefatsa se. Ke belaela gore o ne a tsherwe ke sedidi. [Setshego.] Ka a ne a sa tlhaloganye se go neng go buiwa ka ga sona. Morago ga fao; go ile ga tlhomiwa diporojeke di le dintsi tsa Phetolo ya Temothuo. Rre Worth a re ga re ise re fitlhelele maikaelelo a rona. Kgwetlho e re nang le yona; ke ya fa balemirui bao ba tshwereng mafatshe, ba tlhatlhosa theko ya tlhotlhwa ya fa re re re a reka. Re tshwanetse go bua, fela dingwaga tsona di a tsamaya.

 

Jaanong se ke batlang go se bua ke gore: Rona re le ba ANC re tshegetsa tekanyetsokabo e. Go feta fao, bao ba kgatlegelang go feta fano, ba ka lebelela Agri South Africa ka ura ya 5:30 go ya ka ya borataro mo mosong. Mo lenaneong leno ba tla bona batho ba ba setseng ba tsweletse pele go supa gore tlhabololo e ya Konforense ya bo 52 ya ANC, e setse e le mo tirisong, ebile e a bonagala. [Nako e fedile] Re tshegetsa tekanyetsokabo ya Temothuo. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr G G MOKGORO: Thank you, Chairperson. On behalf of the ANC, I would like to talk about the resolution taken at the ANC's 52nd national conference. The resolution was about the following main issues: Agricultural Reform, land redistribution and rural development, which are the ANC’s main focus.

 

Those main issues were visible in 2012 when we were at Moesha. President Zuma and the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, Mr Nkwinti, were both present. As the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform we say: Where there’s a development, there’s a project of unity.

 

Mr Worth was also present - he can attest to that. I suspect that he was confused. [Laughter.] He couldn’t understand what was being spoken about. After that meeting, a lot of agricultural reform projects were established. Mr Worth said we haven’t achieved what we wanted to achieve. The challenge we are faced with is that of farm owners who increase the selling price whenever we want to buy those farms. We have to engage with each other, but years are passing by.

 

What I want to say now is that as the ANC we support this Budget Vote. Furthermore, those who have further interest can watch Agri South Africa from 5:30am till 6am. On that programme they’ll see people who have benefited and progressed, showing that this development from the ANC’s 52nd national conference is already in use and it is visible. We support the Budget Vote on Agriculture. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 34 – Science and Technology – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 35 – Tourism – put and agreed to.

 

Vote No 36 – Trade and Industry – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Hon Chairperson, hon members, to create jobs, Finance Minister Gordhan says our economy must grow at a rate of 6%, while the Financial and Fiscal Commission says 9%. The DA says 8%. Zambia, this week, set its economic goal at 8%. To get there, our economy needs a shock, but the Department of Trade and Industry gives it a gentle prod. Our trade mission network is not primed for high growth in Southeast Asia, the Bric countries and Africa.

 

There are no plans to expand our trade missions in this budget. Our advantage status, as the gateway to Africa, is slipping to Nigeria, Kenya and Egypt, said The Economist on 2 June. We are not leading the African Renaissance. The department’s Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap, has some virtues, but it is an unfocused and dissipated effort.

 

This budget will not kick the economy into higher gear. What will? Ramping up our energy provision will, getting ready for another commodities boom will, emergency education programmes to train skilled workers and managers in a more flexible, collective bargaining arrangement will, and, most of all, real leadership will.

 

Government is not listening to its own National Planning Commission. The hon Gordhan is steadfast in his balanced approach, but he waits in dignified expectation for presidential support. In our view, he waits in vain. Hon Chairperson, the DA does not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Mr A J NYAMBI: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. To address the challenges, the ANC-led government has adopted an approach of infrastructure build and industrialisation for there to be a more equitable growth path. This must, ultimately, result in changes in the structure and patterns of our economy.

 

The ANC’s vision, as defined in our policies, is that of a mixed economy, in which the state, private capital, co-operatives and other forms of social ownership complement each other in an integrated way to eliminate poverty and foster shared economic growth, hon Van Lingen.

 

We have stated further that our vision of the future includes a sustainable economy, in which all South Africans, including present and future generations, realise the right to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing. It is imperative, therefore, that this vision guides all our policies, strategies and plans for the New Economic Growth Path, as exemplified by the inclusion of the promotion of the green economy in the Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap.

 

The New Growth Path calls on the state to provide bold, imaginative and effective strategies to create the millions of new jobs the South African economy needs. This requires a combination of initiatives of direct state involvement, private-sector partnerships and the mobilisation of civil society. The policy options to support youth employment will provide an additional lever for government to create jobs and will not be limited to any particular sector.

 

Our economy can create employment through the large-scale expansion of infrastructure in mining, in agriculture, in the services industries, in the construction industry, in the tourism industry, and in new economic areas, such as in the green economy and in knowledge-based sectors, in rural development, in African regional development, and through the social economy and the public sector.

 

The state, private capital, co-operatives and other forms of social ownership can and must complement each other in an integrated way to redirect and transform economic growth in order to bring about greater equity. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

 

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 37 – Transport – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, let me start by saying that Cope supports the Budget Vote. However, one needs to raise concern about the level of co-ordination by the department over state-owned enterprises that fall under the control of the department. In some instances, you find that the priorities clash, and there seems to be no coherence following a singular strategic direction. An example is of Transnet versus the Passenger Rail Agency of SA’s views on the operational role of rail networks. Also, the issue of bailouts is common across state-owned enterprises and requires serious review. Lastly, the absence of a policy to co-ordinate the monitoring of state-owned enterprises under the auspices of the department is urgently required. Thank you, Chairperson.

 

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the Road Accident Fund currently has a financial hole of R32 billion. This debt became R1,6 billion worse in the last financial year, and government and the transport department have no plan to pay this debt or to pull the fund out of this black hole.

 

The Road Traffic Management Corporation, the RTMC, has a debt of R200 million as it has spent money that it was not entitled to, and this means that the RTMC is also bankrupt.

 

According to a report of the Department of Transport, South Africa’s gravel roads and rural roads are collapsing as a result of decades of underinvestment and no maintenance of these roads.

Finally, the Eastern Cape government has handed an additional 2 700 kilometres of road to the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, as it is unable to maintain them. However, it has not provided Sanral with funding and has spent its road budget elsewhere. This amounts to an unfunded mandate for Sanral, and Sanral does not have the budget to service these roads. Where will they get the money? This is the state of transport in South Africa, without even mentioning the mess of the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project and the collapsing of the train system. The DA will not support this budget. I thank you.

 

Mr M P SIBANDE: Sihlalo, i-ANC, iyalisekela leli Voti leSabiwomali. [Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote.]

 

The ANC’s 52nd national conference characterises our emerging developmental state as one that must maintain its strategic role in shaping the key sectors of the economy, including the national transport and logistics system. It went on to declare that whilst the forms of state intervention would differ, the overriding objective would be to intervene strategically in transport to drive growth in the economy and, more broadly, to drive development.

 

Kodwa-ke, ngicela ukukhumbuza i-DA ukuthi ... [But, I would like to remind the DA that ...]

 

... when the ANC made the clarion call that “Working together we can do more,” the DA became very aggrieved. We always know that you won’t support anything that wants to change the lives of the people. You forget about ...

 

... ibhuloho lenu enalishiya laphaya e-Waterfront, elingaphelanga, kanye nase-Bourlevard, isabiwomali sabo saphelela lapho. Bese ngiyabuya futhi ngithi, bahlala benyukubele sengathi yizulu uma libafazi bedube inyama. Nsuku zonke bahlala behlinile sengathi badle isibhaha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[... the road that you left incomplete – the one connecting the Waterfront to the Boulevard - you wasted the budget that was allocated for that project. The DA members are always sulky, each and every day.]

 

The impact of this Budget Vote and the policies that underpin it will improve the quality of life of those who reside in the provinces and rural areas. That means examining the implications of what this Vote will do over the next 12 months. Go and check ...

 

... isimo salapha eMpumalanga Koloni, uma izitimela ziya le ... [ ... the railway conditions in the Eastern Cape ...]

 

But we want to improve those lives ...

 

... ukuze abantu bangagcwali ezitimeleni nezinye izinto ezinjengalezo. [... to prevent overcrowding in trains and issues related to that.]

 

But you disagree with the budget. I don’t know who you save. I wish the people were listening to you disagree with changing their lives in the townships. Again, the original job-creation targets set at the time of the launch of the provincial road maintenance grant were 70 000 for year 1, plus 20 000 for year 2. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The Council divided:

 

AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L;  Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane,T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.

 

NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees,  RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).

 

Vote No 38 – Water Affairs – put:

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, we support this Vote. It’s very important that we support it, but we must raise one or two issues. I wish to say that this department is also in the intensive care unit. Every week or every month there is a service delivery protest over water in all the provinces. Water is life.

 

Some of us live in comfort and don’t know what it feels like to have to walk five to 10 kilometres to fetch drinking water, and most of the time it is the women and children who do this. We can make smart and beautiful statements here, but the fact of the matter is that the Minister is failing our people. The patience of the people is running out. We repeat that Cope will support the Vote. Thank you very much.

 

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Chairperson, I want to express the ANC’s support for this Budget Vote, and remind the hon Bloem about water.

 

Apha kweli lizwe iitephu zazingekho kodwa ngoku zikhona nabantu ezilalini bakha amanzi kufutshane, kodwa yena uyakhalaza. Abantu abakhalazayo abazange baphela. Imoto ehambayo kuthiwa iyakhonkothwa zizinja. Siyaluxhasa olu hlahlo–lwabiwo-mali. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

 

[In this country there used to be no water taps but today we have them and even people in rural areas are fetching water not far from their homes, but he is still complaining. There will always be people who are forever complaining. People who are progressive are always criticised. We support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]]

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Schedules put and agreed to.

 

CONSIDERATION OF APPROPRIATION BILL AND OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS THEREON

 

Mr T E CHAANE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the Appropriation Bill was tabled in Parliament at the time of the Budget on 22 February this year. It was officially referred to the committee for consideration and reporting on 12 June. The Bill provides for the appropriation of money from the National Revenue Fund in terms of section 213 of the Constitution and section 15 of the Public Finance Management Act.

 

The Appropriation Bill for the year 2012, as has been noted from the programmes voted, supports government’s objectives of accelerating the pace of economic expansion and job creation, ensuring that the benefits of growth are shared more equitably and that service delivery is improved. Particular focus is given to shifting resources from administrative components and nonessential goods and services to the frontline services. This is in sharp contrast to what has been happening this morning. On the one hand, we hear people supporting the budget and, on the other hand, we hear people rejecting the programmes that are supposed to be funded through those budgets that they have supported. We have been hearing people who live in glass houses saying, “No, we should not build more houses for those living in shacks.” We have heard people saying, “Don’t built roads,” simply because they are sitting comfortably with tarred roads. We have heard people this morning saying, “Don’t improve the lives of the poor with the funds that are available,” simply because they are comfortable where they live.

 

As the ANC, we cannot sit with folded arms when our people continue to struggle. The money that is being generated and that is in the National Revenue Fund will be allocated to, and appropriated by, the programmes, as have been voted. We cannot but do what we promised our people during the election period.

 

The budgets make available R83 million for new allocations to the programmes over the 2012 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period. This includes baseline reductions amounting to R27 billion, made up of R9,2 million or 0,4% of a general budget baseline reduction of provincial and national departments and entities and R17,8 billion identified through a national budget baseline reprioritisation effort.

 

Hon members, as you might have noted during debates on various Budget Votes, all spending plans focus on infrastructure development, job creation, economic support and local government service delivery enhancement. These represent a shift from social spending to increased infrastructure development, employment and economic growth. It becomes important that Parliament hold every department accountable in terms of the implementation of all plans as approved this morning. Without any failure or deviation, we should not only talk tough on wrongdoing, but make sure that there is a consequence for every transgression.

 

The Select Committee on Appropriations deliberated on the Appropriation Bill, B3 of 2012, and recommends that it be adopted without amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Debate concluded.

 

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO KWAZULU-NATAL (UMZIMKHULU LOCAL MUNICIPALITY) AND EASTERN CAPE (PORT ST JOHNS, NYANDENI AND MNQUMA LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES)

 

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Hon House Chair, members, from 27 February to 2 March this year the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs conducted an oversight visit to the Umzimkhulu Local Municipality, situated in the Sisonke District in KwaZulu-Natal. We also visited Port St Johns and Nyandeni, which falls under the O R Tambo District, and Mnquma, which falls under the Amathole Region.

The objective of the visit was to conduct oversight over the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, and the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs. The delegation further met with the members of the provincial legislature of the Eastern Cape and the officials of Mnguma and Nyandeni to gather information on the agriculture and rural development projects in the districts.

 

Another area of concern in Port St Johns was Second Beach, where several shark attacks are threatening the livelihoods of local municipalities. The committee recommends that the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs provide a complete report with an action plan to address the increase in shark attacks at Second Beach, and we also recommend that all departments visit the areas and submit all the programmes and projects that have been implemented in the areas. I have tabled this report and I propose that it be adopted without amendments. [Applause.]

 

Debate concluded.

 

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

 

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

 

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

 

CONSIDERATION OF IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS BILL AND OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT THEREON

 

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having received a briefing from the Department of Defence and Military Veterans, stands to report to the House and request the House to adopt the Bill.

 

I will read the title of the Bill so that hon members don’t vote for something they don’t know. The Implementation of the Geneva Conventions Bill, Bill 10B of 2011, was introduced to enact into law the Geneva Conventions and Protocols. This is to ensure prevention of and ensure punishment for grave breaches and other breaches of the conventions and protocols, and to provide for matters connected therewith. A factor I would like to highlight from this report, in requesting and motivating for the House to adopt and pass the Bill, is indeed to give effect to section 231(4) of the Constitution of South Africa, which stipulates that any international agreement becomes law in the Republic when it is enacted into law by the national legislature. This is legislation that was introduced to the committee. Therefore we request that the House adopt it. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

 

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 

The Council adjourned at 13:51.

________

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

The Speaker and the Chairperson

 

1.         Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

 

(1)        Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 21 June 2012:

 

(a) Appropriation Bill [B 3 – 2012] (National Assembly – sec 77).

 

(b)        Implementation of the Geneva Conventions Bill [B 10B – 2011] (National Assembly – sec 75).

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

National Council of Provinces

 

1.         REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF LIBERIA FOR THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION WITH RESPECT TO TAX MATTERS, DATED 20 JUNE 2012

 

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Liberia for the exchange of information with respect to tax matters, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, approves the said agreement.

 

Report to be considered.

 

2.         REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF DOMINICA FOR THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES AND TAX MATTERS, DATED 20 JUNE 2012

 

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Commonwealth of Dominica for the exchange of information with respect to taxes and tax matters, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, approves the said agreement.

 

Report to be considered

 

3.         REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF GIBRALTAR FOR THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION WITH RESPECT TO TAX MATTERS, DATED 20 JUNE 2012

 

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Gibraltar for the exchange of information with respect to tax matters, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, approves the said agreement.

 

Report to be considered.

 

4.         Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development on the Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Islamic Republic of Iran, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, dated 20 June 2012:

 

The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Islamic Republic of Iran, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, and referred to it, recommends that the National Council of Provinces, in terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approves the said agreement.

 

Report to be considered.

 

5.         Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development on the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Islamic Republic of Iran concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, dated 20 June 2012:

 

The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Islamic Republic of Iran concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, and referred to it, recommends that the National Council of Provinces, in terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approves the said agreement.

 

Report to be considered.

 

6.         Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development on the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B 39B - 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 20 June 2012:

The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having considered the subject of the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B 39B – 2010] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

 

Report to be considered.

 

21 JUNE 2012               PAGE: 115 of 115

 

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