Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 27 Nov 2019
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
WEDNESDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2019
Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2jZv91_Hrg
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15:03.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS GOVERNANCE CLUSTER 3
Question 311:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy
Speaker, the reply to that question is as follows: In the lead up to the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, as members of the ministerial committee, we met with the Minister of Finance on a few occasions on the issue of managing the fiscus generally and in particular, management of the wage bill.
These engagements with the Minister of Finance have therefore been ongoing before and after the MTBPS. The Minister of Finance, over and above that, is a member of the committee of Ministers which I chair. At the very first meeting of this committee in August 2019, the Minister of Finance presented a financial outlook of which the wage bill was a key component. After the MTBPS, a meeting of the committee on 19 November 2019 also took place. The Minister was in that meeting represented by one representative.
There is an agreement that our approach to this particular matter must be extended to the cost of running public administration generally. The key issues that relates to this are the following: firstly, the leaks and wastage in the fiscus, namely, wasteful and fruitless expenditure, unauthorized and irregular expenditure; secondly, litigation costs to the state with regard to awards against and the general administration of litigation, the cost of ICT to the state, the cost of building rentals, leases, maintenance and refurbishment – these are the issues that are involved in the first issue. Second one, costs associated with the conditions
of service for the elected public representatives – this is contained in the reviewed ministerial handbook and was done in relation to the range benefits and privileges pertaining to the travel and subsistence, accommodation and housing, office personnel and tools of trade for the members of the executive.
The next one is the management of the wage bill as the current wage bill is not sustainable with the fiscal challenges facing the country. The committee of Ministers has appointed six Ministers into a smaller committee to work out all the relevant and detailed issues relating to the wage bill and it is something that is ongoing. Thank you very much Deputy Speaker.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister Mboweni told us that we need to at least R150 billion over the next three years. In a committee meeting shortly before the MTBPS, the Minister of Finance said that his personal preference for solving the wage bill crisis was for public servants to take a 10% pay cut across the board. This seems to be an awfully blunt and even an unfair way of trying to solve this crisis.
In contrast, the DA has crunched the numbers and found a way to save R168 billion over three years by reducing the number of millionaire managers in the public service by a third and freezing the wages of millionaire managers and other administrators while still granting inflation- linked increases for the true heroes of service delivery, like teachers, nurses and police officers.
My question to the Minister is whether he has studied the DA’s proposal in detail and whether he thinks it is the best option currently on the table for solving this crisis? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy
Speaker, as we say, our approach is to firstly deal with all the issues that are costly to the fiscus. In relation to the R130 billion that you are referring to hon member, it is a perspective from which the Minister of Finance is working on. We generally embrace that we should reduce the wage bill along those lines. In that alone, we are dealing with a range of issues. For now, I am not in a position to count them all but just as an example, it is all issues relating to wage agreements, policies that
have now accumulated into the wage bill that we say it is unsustainable and we want to reduce it. Whether it will fit into what the Minister of Finance has indicated, it is a different question.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister, on the one hand, you are talking about cutting the wage bill, on the other hand, every single department ... and let me repeat ... every department that appears before the Standing Committee on Appropriations is talking about vacancies that they need to fill. On the one hand we need to cut yet on the other there are vacancies. There needs to be a balance.
More importantly, is it true that at any given time there is about 30% of staff that are off sick? If you pick up the phone now, 30% of staff is on sick leave.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy
Speaker, firstly, let me just indicate one thing and I hope all of us will be on a consensus about the problems that we are trying to deal with in terms of the description. There is no irreconcilable contradiction
between what you are saying with regard to the need to cut the wage bill and vacancies. These are two different issues. We need to fill all vacancies that exist in terms of what each executive authority and head of department determines with regard to their needs in each department.
On the other hand, we do need to reduce the wage bill. What we need to understand is that the size of the wage bill does not automatically flow from the number of public servants that we have. In fact, we can confidently stand here and say that we don’t have a bloated public service in the Republic. [Interjections.] What we have though is a bloated wage bill. [Interjections.]
We have done thorough studies on this matter. We now understand how the wage bill has grown in a manner that is related to vacancies or to the number of personnel in both provincial and national level departments. Our focus solely is on the wage bill and what has led to its accumulation. I think it is very important to point out and understand. We can give examples of things that have happened over time that have given rise to the wage bill
that we have today. These would, amongst other things, have been unintended ... [Time expired.]
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, don’t do that. Your time has expired. You will continue to answer as others answer.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you Deputy Speaker, thank you Minister for the admission that we all know that the public sector wage bill is unsustainable. The point that you are making is that National Treasury indicates that the average remuneration in the public sector is higher than in the rest of the economy. That is an issue of concern.
However, what I would like to ask you about ... I know you indicated that there is a lot of details that still needs to be sorted out. We know that the new negotiations for the next wage settlement will start next year. In the past, one of the concerns has been that the settlement has been above consumer price index. Whilst we from the ACDP appreciate ... a lot of people ... please, nurses are doing incredible good jobs. How will we ensure that
that increase, if anything, is sustainable when you look at the sustainability of the fiscus and the fiscal consolidation path that is required to bring our government debt levels into alignment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy
Speaker, you are hitting the core of the challenge that all of us have. On the one hand, by the time you start that round of negotiations, you already have money in the pockets of public servants as it were arising from the agreements that have been reached in the past rounds of negotiations. Already that is a problem.
We have decided, amongst other things, to start as early as now to engage with organized labour at all levels, both at a political level and at chamber level. I should point out that we are facing quite difficult issues at the moment to reach consensus at that level. In other words, we are at a point where the state has this and that problem. Let’s open up and be genuine about it. Then we can start dealing with the figures. This is how we are going to try and approach it. As I say, it won’t include taking money that is already in the pockets of civil
servants but it is rather focusing on the future to say
... you’ll realize that the last two rounds of negotiations went far beyond what could have been affordable at the time with regard to the coffers of the state. That is one of the things that we will need to avoid this time around. Starting early is important.
Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister, there is constant talk even in your party about the need to develop a capable developmental state. One of the requirements of a developmental state is to have highly skilled civil servants who are able to fulfill the function of the state across the board. What impact will the reduction of the number of civil servants have on the developmental objective of the country? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank
you very much Deputy Speaker, the response is as follows: we have a range of programmes to respond to that particular question. In particular, we have the national school of government whose duty is solely on thing – training on various programmes as determined by the Sona,
legislative framework and the National Development Plan, NDP, amongst other things.
Also articulated, amongst other things, by hon members in the House and by the perceptions out there in the public, all of which points exactly to that kind of situation where we need skilled and capable public servants.
Therefore, the national school of government is focusing on those. What we going to do beginning of the year is to review some of those programmes to align them to the prescripts of the sixth administration. We are already making strides in relation to that alignment and achieving our goals in that regard.
Question 312:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, first of all, it is the prerogative of the provincial executive to intervene in municipalities under section 139. In the three municipalities, the two, Lekwa Local Municipality and Govan Mbeki Local Municipality, the intervention was under section 139(5) which means that it is a financial
intervention and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs gets informed. The Minister does not concur or decide so it is really the provinces that take those decisions.
But in the case of Modimolle-Mookgophong, this was under section 139(1)(b) which means that the province decides but then it asks for concurrence from the national Minister. Now, we give concurrence if the municipality is failing in terms of the three categories; governance, finance or service delivery-related issues. But, I can not answer for the provinces why they have not put others under administration because it really is their prerogative. Thank you.
Mr K CEZA: Deputy Speaker, Minister, isn’t there a monitoring system in the provinces or can we not develop a system in which we can be proactive in arresting the imminent collapse of municipalities instead of reacting only when there is a crisis in municipalities? Is there not a way in which we can react before the crisis is in place? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Yes, I think you are right when you say, isn’t there a mechanism in the provinces because that is their prerogative but the Constitution indicates that you can intervene by supporting the municipalities under section
154 but if that fails you have to intervene differently then.
But, the intervention can also come from the Treasury’s side. I think to be honest with you, sitting where we are, we can see the problems in many of the municipalities.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, the Table is complaining that you are speaking away from the mike.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Oh!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Okay!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s better.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Okay, thanks.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, yeah.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: So, I said that the hon member is correct that shouldn’t there be a system in the provinces to an early warning, if you like, that will tell you that things are not going right in a certain municipality.
But, to be honest with you, even without that early warning, there should be an early warning I agree, but even without it we can see that many of the municipalities are facing problems. We can discuss with the province but it is the province that must take the initiative.
But, some of the problems are also related to us here in terms of the political parties, they must also take responsibility because they have a lot to do with what
happens at local government level, let me leave it at that. Thank you.
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the officials that are always sent to the municipalities that are not performing well always leave these municipalities in the same position, not doing well, I just want to check therefore, what criteria do you use in appointing these people that are supposed to give guidance to these underperforming municipalities? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: When a municipality has been put under administration the province then appoints an administrator to run the municipality. But, let me say that it is sometimes difficult just for one person to change the culture in a municipality. He or she may change things whilst he or she is there but if the culture has not changed, when he or she leaves, things may fall back to where they were.
I think we need to rethink in a way how we intervene but, for now, some of the municipalities are under
administration for the second time, others maybe for the third time because the underlying culture was not changed. Just one person was sent there as an administrator and when they come out things fall apart. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Inkosi B N LUTHULI: Mhlonishwa, Sekela Somlomo, Mhlonishwa, Ngqongqoshe, ngicela ukwazi mina ukuthi ngokwazi kwakho njengamanje mhlawumbe mhlonishwa, bangaki omasipala abakulesi simo asebebikiwe kuwena? Nokuthi-ke, wona amacala asevuliwe yini evulelwa laba abenzi bobubi komasipala? Uma bekhona, bangaki abasebegwetshiwe noma abaphambi kwezinkantolo? Ngiyabonga, Sekela Somlomo.
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Ngiyabonga, ngizophendulo lowo wokuqala ngoba lo wesibili ...
English:
... does not arise from my answer. It is a new question which I will answer when it is asked ...
IsiZulu:
... ukuthi bangaki asebebekwe amacala, bangaki asebegwetshiwe. Ngakhoke angizowuphendula lowo kodwa engizokusho ukuthi omasipala esinabo abangaphansi kolawulo loHulumeni bezifundazwe noma bangamashumi amane. Ukuthi-ke amacala nasebeboshiwe konke lokho yinto engingaya ukuyoyicwaninga ngoba yinto eyenzeka ezifundeni ayenzweki kuzwelonke. Lolo lwazi kufanele ngiyolumba le ezifundeni bese ngiyalubuyisa-ke ngizophendula.
Ngiyabonga.
English:
Mr C BRINK: Deputy Speaker, I understand the Minister’s answer that intervention is foremost a provincial competence but if a provincial intervention fails or does not happen obviously the Minister must step in or at least engage with the matter.
The Eastern Cape provincial government has accused the council of the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality of being dysfunctional and of failing to meet its obligations. It has assisted the council by offering to appoint an administrator but this offer has been rejected by the
mayor and the acting municipal manager has called it premature.
Considering the political chaos in the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality and the fact that they are forfeiting
R3 billion in national government’s funding which they still have to pay back and could bankrupt that municipality, would the Minister support the DA’s call for the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality council to be dissolved? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Section 139(c) of the Constitution allows for the dissolution but there are processes that are followed. A political party does not come to the Minister and say, “can we dissolve?” and we dissolve. There are processes that are followed that start from the province.
I would advise the DA to follow the processes and not say whether or not I will support or not; I will only exercise my mind when I have got a request for concurrence. Thank you.
Question 298:
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the implementation of the Integrated Urban Development Framework, IUDF, and the National Skill Development Fund, NSDF, will not require major changes to the current government functioning, however it will require better co-ordination and the provision of coherence and various government programmes. This would be enhanced through the district development model and other complimentary interventions. The district development model seeks to ensure co-operation, collaboration and co-ordination across the three spheres of government, to enhance local planning, spatial development amongst other objectives. The model is a practical intergovernmental relations mechanism for all three spheres of government, to plan, budget, implement, monitor jointly and act in unison.
In terms of functioning areas, there are no additional capacity requirements in order to mainstream the NSDF and IUDF across government, however there is requirement for supporting and deepening existing capabilities. For instance in the areas of planning, spatial planning,
financial management, infrastructure management, development planning, project management, economic planning, information and information technologies and ICT, if those capabilities are weak they will need to be strengthened. Additionally, to implement the two policies, they will be a further requirement for alignment and co-ordination of the Offices of the Premier as well as Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
At local government level, the department will establish district or metro hubs and these districts and metro hubs will be established in phases, across the various districts and metros in consultation with the provinces and the municipalities. The hubs will ensure that there is integrated planning and implementation, sharing of resources and services, that there also transparency and accountability and impact monitoring within all districts and metro spaces.
The districts hubs can also be complimented and by co- ordinating the learning networks amongst municipalities,
as a platform to learn together, share ideas and jointly seek solutions to the challenges faced by the urban agenda. Currently the department through the IUDF programme has established a peer learning network that consists of six municipalities, namely; the City of Mbombela, City of uMhlathuze, Kwadukuza, Steve Tshwete, Polokwane Municipality and Stellenbosch Local Municipality. The peer learning network brings together officials from planning, infrastructure delivery and budgeting offices of the participating municipalities, in order to promote collaboration, planning and integrated service delivery, in support of the IUDF as oppose to current silos. So, this is really a sharing and learning and networking of municipalities. That’s the platform they have for the IUDF. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Arries.
Ms L H ARRIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ...ha, ha! Sorry, sorry I think I should have called hon Mpunza, eskies [sorry].
Mr G G MPUMZA: Thanks Deputy Chair...
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: ...Deputy Speaker you mean, heh?
Mr G G MPUMZA:...oh Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, thank you.
Mr G G MPUMZA: Deputy Speaker, Minister is the alignment co-ordination through district planning, implementation and monitoring model, paying off to the desired outcomes in the pilot municipalities where we have implemented the district model?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, I think it will pay off but as you know, we only launched the last pilot yesterday, actually. So we can’t say it has paid off but what we can see up to now is that there is increasing change of culture of working in silos. The three spheres of government are beginning to work together but it’s not something that is just going to happen over night. It’s something that is going to be a change of culture but
also when we launched, we launched midstream, the plans were already there, so we were not able to plan together. What we have been able to do, is to take all the plans that are there for a particular district. We have taken what national, all the departments that have anything to do with operational requirement, OR.
We have looked at their plans, at their budget; we have done the same with the province and done the same with municipalities. So that we get a full picture of what government is doing at OR. We have also developed very extensive profiles of each district, so that we can also see whether what government is doing in those districts is speaking to the challenges of the district, but also to the opportunities, because there are lots of opportunities in those districts, that have really not been tapped. So we can’t say now that it is paying off, but we are positive that what is happening now is positive. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Deputy Speaker, Minister obviously the national spatial development framework depends for its implementation on different spheres of government
reaching crucial agreements. One of the ways, municipalities can redress the injustices of the past is to bring people closer to work and social amenities. The City of Cape Town has identified a number of land passes for affordable housing development, including Upper Darling Street, Wingfield, Youngfield, Ysterplaat and Colenberg. The problem is that, they are struggling to have these passes of land released by the Department of Public Works. This is impending the City’s redress programme. Is the Minister willing to meet with the Minister of the Department of Public Works to unblock whatever is keeping this agreement and the transfer of that land from being fulfilled? Thanks very much.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, my apologies hon Arries, your time will be next.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I think what would help is, if we get something from you. We will take it; there is Interministerial Committee which is chaired by the Deputy President on land. Where the Minister of the Department of Public Works, where Minister of Agriculture, Rural Development,
CoGTA and many others sit. So this matter can then be discussed there and accelerated there but, I think let’s have something from you, we will put on the agenda of that Interministerial Committee.
We can meet with the Minister of Public Works, but I think it would be good to have everybody around the table on this matter, so that’s accelerated. Thank you.
Ms L H ARRIES: Thank you Minister, spatial planning was used to separate people on the basis of colour and today it is being done on basis of class. Is there a commitment within government to dismantle colonial and apartheid spatial planning to ensure integrated human settlement and development. The reality of today was in the past the Voortrekkers used to call a put up their voort, that is where then say, today they just call it under very nice name, they call it private security complexes. What will you do to ensure that you enforce on these municipalities to transform the apartheid spatial development. The realities hon Minister are, while we speaking about integration, there is still approve these private
security complexes and our people can not afford it. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon member, it is true that spatial development was engineered for both racial and class discrimination and I must admit, honestly that we have not been able to change that up to now. There is willingness to do it, but it’s not something that can be done by one department. It has to be a collective and we hope that as we begin to plan together in the district in the future, we will be able to take that into account. So that’s all I can say for now, it can be even the municipalities alone, it will be have to be all spheres, because if there is human settlement then we must see where the economic activities are, where the sustainable development zone, SDZ are and all the other things. So it really needs an integrated approach. Thank you.
Ms M M TLOU: Deputy Speaker, I have a supplementary question. Hon Minister, what is the risk of evoking section 139 in all affected municipalities without diagnosing the underline challenges and specifically, how
long does it take the Provincial Executive Council, PEC, to determine whether to intervene and apply section 139? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I think section 139, is not a panacea for all ills in municipalities. You are correct, hon member that we need to do a proper diagnosis in each municipality and see, what are the problems, what is the mischief that needs to be fixed, before we just apply section 139. How long it takes for the PEC to decide, I don’t know to be honest, some may take shorter and others may take long, I wouldn’t hazard a guess on that. Thank you.
Question 299:
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngqongqoshe banawe namuhla.
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Yebo, ngiyavuma banami esitikini kodwa ke bazongithola. [Uhleko.]
English:
First of all, let me say that the district model is a model that has been developed from our experience of the past. Over the past 25 years we have realised that we have really worked in silos across national governments and also in vertical silos in terms of the three spheres of government. We have also learnt some good lessons from provinces.
Some of the provinces have tried to work in an integrated manner, but without involving all three spheres of government. If you recall in KwaZulu-Natal, I think they have something called Sukuma Sakhe, which tries to bring everybody around the table. In the Free State, they had, Operation Hlasela, in North West they had Setsokotsane.
In Gauteng, they had Tirisano. They were all trying to see how to resolve this issue of working in silos and how to bring everybody, not just government but also communities.
Learning from all those lessons, we have realised that indeed, we have not been working according to the Constitution which says that, we are one government in the republic, with three spheres which are distinctive
but interdependent and inter-related. The Constitution also says we must work in a collaborative manner. After a long discussion, it was then agreed that, let us work like that, as one government with three spheres.
The district was identified as an ideal place to work because it gives us the scale and all three spheres can work there. We have 44 districts and eight metros and so, for the sake of this model we call them districts. In all they are 54. The most important thing is that, when this model is working, we should be able as all the three spheres to plan together for that district. Of course, the plans must have the aspirations of the people who live in that district. We must ensure that we know what the challenges, we know what the opportunities, we know what the potential of that district is, so that as we plan, we plan according to the reality of that district.
In the end, we want to end up with one plan, one budget and one implementation approach per district. Every one of us, national and provincial must be there. We also recognise that it is not only government that works in that space. There are lots of other role-players,
traditional leaders, business people, civil society, and everyone must have a say in how that district should go forward.
Ms M T KIBI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, as this is intergovernmental relations mechanism, are other stakeholders willing to come on board in terms of plan budget and implement jointly? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Indeed, it was for that reason that it was decided that we must pilot this. We are piloting it in three districts, OR Tambo in the Eastern Cape, eThekwini in KwaZulu-Natal and Waterberg in Limpopo. These were chosen because they are very different. OR Tambo is very rural but has a lot of potential. EThekwini has both urban and rural space. Waterberg has a lot of mining which does not exist so much in the others.
We find that as we are piloting, yes there is willingness for all stakeholders, government, the national, provincial and the local departments. We are also engaging business when we launch and we talk to them,
they are also willing to participate. Traditional leaders have been willing and they are giving us all sorts of ideas and we meet with as many stakeholders as possible.
We also recognise that we do not have the monopoly of ideas. As we are piloting this, we are also accepting good ideas that are coming from the stakeholders. I think there is willingness; obviously we have to put that willingness into practise. Thank you.
Ms G OPPERMAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, growing the economy, job creation and service delivery are of highest priority for the people of our country. Can you tell us how the new District Development Model will resolve and address the Auditor-General’s root causes within municipalities and create the environment for decent work to be generated?
HON MEMBERS: Tiger!!! [Interjections and Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order hon members! Go ahead hon Minister, please go ahead. [Interjections.] Sorry...
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Angizizwa uma bebanga umsindo ukuthi ngithini.
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela nithule.
English:
Hon members, please be quiet. You cannot be just disrupted so easily. [Interjections.] Hon members, you do want to play. Let us finish first, and then we can go and play outside. Playing is absolutely nice outside, but right now please let us allow the Minister to respond.
Members have asked questions. Go ahead Minister.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I think what the district model does as we look at the profile of each district is to identify the potential and the opportunities. For instance, if I were to be practical and just look at OR Tambo, there is not much economic activity happening there at the moment, but there is a lot of potential. It is on a belt that is beautiful and coastal, where tourism, ocean economy can
take place. It has got very fertile land where agriculture and agro processing can take place, where animal, stock can be kept. There is a lot o potential.
As we dig deep into the districts, we identify those things. We look at the skills that exist in the district and see how we can enhance the skills so that the skills can be addressing the opportunities for young people to be skilled and take advantage of the opportunities. In terms of improving the municipalities themselves and how they function, we have agreed that it may not be possible for now to have all the professional skills in each municipality. We are going to try and help the district to have all the professional skills so that they can be shared within the district, until such time that every municipality can be able to attract those professional skills that will assist in growing the economy in those spaces, and taking advantage of the potential in each district. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, Minister, it appears that the three sphere government has passed its sell-by date. I do not think we are achieving the desired
result that we want out of the system. A great challenge is at local level, there is no doubt about that. What is government’s position in terms of attempting to make it make a two tier government, district and national level, so that your supply chain processes will now go district level, cutting the costs and more money being available for delivery of services on the ground? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: that is a very interesting question but it does not arise from everything we have said so far. What I can say to you is that at the moment we have three spheres and that is what we are working with. If there is a need for two tiers, that is a different discussion. It will mean, a constitutional amendment, for now we are working with what we have. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Mhlonishwa lapho ngaphambili, Ngqongqoshe, okwami la ngifuna ukubuza. Ngiyajabula ngoba usulapha kuloMnyango wakwa-Cogta. Kunalento ekhona ikakhulukazi endaweni zasemakhaya la kuphethe izinduna khona namakhosi uthola ukuthi uma kuza intuthuko,
amakhosi nezinduna abazi lutho ukuthi yimalini eyisabelo salowo mklamo nokuthi uzoqala nini futhi uzogcina nini. Babona nje ngogandaganda. Uma kufuneka abaphathi bezokuxhumana uthola ukuthi bazofika kanye naleyo nkontileka. Kanjalo nabantu bomphakathi akukho noyedwa ozoqashwa. Okubuhlungu manje uma sebehambile abantu benkontileka abantu bendawo baqhamuka sebebuza eNkosini noma eNduneni.
Ngifuna ukubuza kuwena njengoba sisuka nawe kulezi zinto, uyazazi. Laba bantu bashiya indawo bengaqedile njengomgwaqo osuka kwamaPhumulo ohamba udlule ebholohweni uyoxhuma phezulu kwaMadundube. Emshane kuyimanje izingane zesikole azihambi futhi nomphakathi unenkinga. Ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi izinduna namakhosi nizozamukela nini zibe yingxenye yentuthuko emphakathini. Nabo nibanike amafowuni njengamakhansela lawa enu adla imali. Ngicela impendulo eqondile ngqo. [Ihlombe.
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo, njengoba sithi sifuna ukusebenza ngalendlela esifuna ukusebenza ngayo. Enye yezinto esizibonile leyo ukuthi asisebenzi sisonke
esihlala kuleyo ndawo, futhi esakhe kuleyo ndawo asibonisani. Njengoba sisho besisebenza ngama-“silo”. Njengoba si-pilotha uma siqala e-O R sabonana namakhosi akhona. Abayingxenye yayo yonke into esasiyenza laphaya, Azoba yinxenye yento esiyenzayo kodwa vele namanje ngokomthetho amakhosi ayahlala eMkhandlwini yomasipala. Noma siya KwaZulu-Natali sahlangana namakhosi, noma sethula oSihlalo bezindlu zezifunda amakhosi ayekhona ezokhuluma kulowo mcimbi. Kodwa sisuke sesihlalilephansi nawo sabonisana. Uma ngingakwenzela nje umzekelo.
Ngesikhathi sibona amakhosi aseThekwini akhele iTheku, enye yezintu abayicela ukuthi uma kwenziwa iplani ye –IDP babe yingxenye nemikhandlu yabo besho ukuthi yini nabo abayibonayo ukuthi kufanele ingene ku-IDP.
Sathi ke thina lokho kuyasijabulisa ngoba vele uma sesenza loluhlelo sesiqala ukuhlela sifuna wonke umuntu abekhona. Hhayi, nje amakhosi nezinduna nabahlali babe novo. Wonke umuntu abe novo bese sakha isu elilodwa esizosebenza kulona. Kuphele lokho okokuthi umphakathi ubone ngoba kungena ugandaganda, noma amakhosi nezinduna abone ngoba kufika abantu.
UMongameli nayizolo ubephinda leyonto ngezikhathi siseWaterburg yokuthi uSekela Mongameli lo ohleli laphaya wayexoxa indaba yokuthi ngesikhathi esewuNdunankulu laphaya eMumalanga, kwathi ezihlalele ehhovisi. Wezwa sekuthiwa kukhona uNgqongqoshe osefikile kwenye indawo khona laphaya eMpumalanga uzokwethula umklamo ophezulu kkwezigidigidi ezi-2 zamarandi kodwa yena ewuNdunankulu engazi. Sengisho ukuthi akuwona amakhosi nezinduna kuphela ebezingazi. Bekusetshenzwa nje – yilowo ezisebenzela - yilowo ezisebenzela. Manje sifuna kusebenze wonke umuntu kanye kanye.
Question 292:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you Deputy Speaker, hon Maluleka has asked a question on what it is that we are doing to ensure that privative controls, strong consequence management and an effective monitoring culture in the public sector which gave rise to the increase in the total annual irregular expenditure in this financial year as out lined by the Auditor-General are dealt with. The answer to the question by hon Maluleka is that the new Medium Term Strategic Framework which basically is the programme of government for the
next five years will have clear interventions and targets on how to ensure consequence management in the public sector in relation to corruption, maladministration, fruitless, waste full and irregular expenditure.
Examples of what we will do include the introduction of life style audits, the signing of performance agreements and referral to Law Enforcement Agencies to investigate and prosecute suspected criminal conduct of anyone in the public service. The President will launch the Medium Term Strategic Framework in the new-year 2020. We have also out lord those employed in the public service doing business with the state. This has been followed up with consequent management where such directives have not been followed or met. I thank you Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am informed that hon Maluleka is not in the House so hon Ntuli will do the supplementary question.
Ms M M NTULI: Thank you Deputy Speaker, the follow up question is as follows, what is the effect of the public audit amendment act to ensure that the adequately deal
with the continuous increase of irregular expenditure. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you hon Ntuli for the follow up. The President has all now has sign the public audit amendment act which came into effect on the
1 April 2019. The act empowers the Auditor-General of South Africa to take remedial action to ensure that losses suffered by the state are recovered from individuals involved. So we have that possibility now. That those who contributed to lose of the state indeed we can recover what the state has lost from them. But secondly the legislation also empowers the Auditor General to refer certain suspected material irregularities for investigation by Law Enforcement Agencies so we believe Deputy Speaker that we have indeed mechanisms now to deal with fruitless, wasteful expenditure in the public sector. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MALATSI: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister Mthembu in light of the findings of the latest Auditor’s report which shows that irregular expenditure for the 2018-2019 financial years stands at R61 billion the major
of which was incurred by the ANC either in provincial governments, national governments and also in local municipalities in contrast to where the DA governments where irregular expenditure is at its lowest. What will the Presidency do differently this time to prevent the ANC in government from continue to squander tax-payers money to the extent of billions in irregular expenses. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: As we have indicated those that might have used the monies wastefully and fruitlessly there is a mechanism of recovering those monies from them and we are quite aware of many provincial departments and even national ones that have opted for that option of those that have not used our monies profitable and prudently repaying or paying back, the was terminology that was used sometime ago – paying back the money. But secondly if indeed as we have said in the original answer Malatsi if indeed there is suspicion that we think this R61 billion that you are spoken to that there is suspected criminal conduct we can assure you we will not hesitate to involve Law Enforcement Authorities on this matter. Thank you very much.
Ms N P SONTI: Thank you Chairperson, Minister functionaries in the public sector are being demonized for corruption while in reality they are only following illegal instruction from their political principals who force them into these corrupt deals including irregular expenditure. What protections have you given to public sector officials, who fear losing their jobs should they refuse illegal instructions from corrupt politicians?
Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well I have not come across any report that says people have been given corrupt instruction by political principals. If you have such please provide us with such because we have never come across such a report, but we can assure you that our laws in this country disallow any illegal instruction, so if there is any public service worker or employee who is requested or instructed to do something illegal that employee can ask the person whose making such instruction to do that in writing, and in effect that is what we will say to all our public service workers that if there are any such instruction request that such instruction be put in writing. I can assure that ever since I have been in
this position of monitoring and planning and evaluation I have not come across any public servant who has come forward and said I have been forced to implement an illegal instruction. I am hearing that for the first time from you. Thank you very much.
Ms M M NTULI: Thank you Chairperson, I would love to thank you the Minister for all the responses. [Laughter.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, that member was actually standing in for the person who asked the original question, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Okay but she
pressed, that was a mistake that she pressed, okay. Thank you very much. Then we continue.
Question 305:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, the department does not have any legal mechanism to assist municipalities to recover any unauthorised irregular, fruitless or wasteful expenditure incurred. None the less the recent Public
Audit Amendments Act 5 of 2018 amongst others provides for the Auditor-General to issue a certificate of debt where an accounting officer or accounting authority has failed to recover losses from a responsible person or to instruct the relevant executive authority to collect the debt. This will complement the implementation of section
32 of the Municipal Finance Management Act which provides for measures pertaining to the recovery of unauthorised irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure from liable local government officials and politicians.
In terms of which each municipal council has a duty to introduce and adopt policies and processes to prevent, identify and investigate unauthorised irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure.
We wish to take this opportunity to invite this House of Parliament as well as Houses in the provincial legislatures to assist us in providing oversight with regards to the extent of implementation of these provisions. After all, the business of local government is everybody’s business.
In order to empower local councils, the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in collaboration with the National Treasury and Sa Local Government Association, Salga, have developed a manual, a Municipal Public Accounts Committee, MPAC, guide and toolkit to assist members of MPAC, to perform their oversight responsibilities and other related roles. The MPAC guide and toolkit, aims to improve accountability, transparency, effective and efficient use of public resources in executing municipal functions and thereby improving service delivery.
The department together with the others is currently rolling out training and information sessions of the MPAC guide so that MPACs can exercise their responsibilities effectively, including amongst others investigation of fruitless wasteful unauthorised and expenditure.
Reviewing and recommending to council actions relating to the expenditure and conclusion of these expenditures and consequence management processes.
According to the National Treasury information, at the end of 2018-19, the MPAC guide and toolkit have been
rolled out and the total 879 MPAC councillors and 205 municipal officials had been trained countrywide. Thank you.
Mrs G OPPERMAN: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, in the Northern Cape, there are municipalities where the relevant provincial MECs already intervened and written letters to the councils for Members of the Mayoral Committees, MMCs, to vacate their positions because they did not meet the minimum competency requirements. Yet after two years, these MMCs are still in their positions.
Who is liable for the millions in unauthorised irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure during their tenure? [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The MMCs are actually employed by the municipalities. So, it is the municipalities and the councils that keep them when they know they should not be keeping them. Thank you.
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Minister, very often the costs of wasteful and irregular expenditure is due to actions of politicians and officials who use council resources for their own benefit. In the UThukela District Municipality, the deputy mayor took the council’s vehicle to watch a soccer match in Johannesburg, she got drunk and through her negligence the vehicle was stolen. To this date, she has not been held accountable nor council has recovered its loses.
What action are you willing to take in this specific case to ensure that the deputy mayor pays back the costs of that vehicle to the municipality? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon member, I thought I have informed you that legally I cannot go to a council and demand anything. So, the legal route must be followed by the relevant authorities. The council needs to take action. The Minister has no locus standi in going to the council and say do this and that. You know that as you are asking this question, you know it. Thank you.
Ms R N KOMANE: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, we all know that the unauthorised and irregular expenditures by fraud and corruption. The only way of dealing with deeply embedded corruption in municipalities is to have concerted investigations and prosecution rife which will show people that no one can steal and mess the public funds without the consequences.
What engagements is the Minister intending to do, particularly with the Hawks and the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, in terms of supporting municipalities because they are answerable to the department?
What are the engagements between the two entities to show that the people are held accountable? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I think the Hawks and relevant authorities do investigate and it is up to them after finding whatever they find to prosecute. The Minister cannot say go and prosecute this one or that one, because they are the ones who do the investigation, they are the ones who know
whether there is a case to answer or not, they are the ones who issue arrests and then the courts then deal with the matter.
So, as far as we are concerned, the Hawks must do their work and all the authorities must do their work. We will not stand in their way, but we have no authority to instruct them what to do.
Question 313:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, on this question, I can say that it is desirable that the equitable share be revised, because we have found that the formula for equitable share is useful in so far as it represents a transparent and predictable budgeting and distribution framework in which all spheres of government can participate.
However, the formula, as it stands, does not take into account the real needs and developmental challenges confronting the various municipalities. The formula also makes an assumption that all municipalities can have equal capacity to generate revenue. However, we all know
that in certain municipalities, particularly those in small towns, rural areas, in townships, there is a challenge in terms of collecting revenue.
To address this, the Minister of Finance has proposed that a special budget forum lekgotla be held to discuss the design of the local government fiscal framework. To prepare for that lekgotla, the department will work with National Treasury, Salga, Statistics SA, and the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, to improve the local government fiscal framework, including the local government equitable share formula.
So, we are awaiting that lekgotla and hopefully, at that lekgotla, it would be agreed to revise the equitable share. Thank you.
Mr K CEZA: Chair, Minister, I am happy that we do agree that there should be a revision of the equitable share in the manner that it is structured currently. The municipalities are chronically underfunded, yet they are at the coalface of service delivery. It is for that reason that we think they should get the lion’s share of
the equitable share. Equally, we see no reason for the continuation of provinces as constitutional spheres of government. Do you not think that keeping provinces is an unnecessary strain on the fiscus? Is there a need for the continuation of provinces in the country, because everyone resides in municipalities, not in provinces?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chair, hon member, I will agree with you that the municipalities are at the coalface of delivery and that the population actually sees government through local government. When they are angry with government, generally, they take it out on local government. They burn councilors’ houses, municipalities, or whatever. So, on that, we agree.
We also agree that everything happens in the local space. We live there, business is there. Everything happens in the local space. Even all of us sitting here were elected through votes that took place in the local space. So, on that, we all agree.
We also agree that the municipalities are underfunded. Whether they will get a lion’s share or a tiger’s share, I don’t know. [Laughter.] I don’t know if they will get an elephant’s share. All I know is that they are underfunded.
The issue of the existence or nonexistence of provinces is a story for another day and another place. It is not something that we can discuss here and now. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, hon Minister, we are fully aware of the financial deterioration in municipalities, with uncollected revenues growing by 17% to R147 billion, and overdue accounts owed by municipalities have grown by 52% to R36 billion, half of that owed to Eskom, which is a later question. In view of the above and the poor financial performance by municipalities, can it be justified to consider increasing the equitable share formula?
I have already said in Parliament that we need to consider that, but surely one must get the municipalities’ houses in order before one can give them
additional funds. If you agree with that, how do we do that, to get the houses in order? I support additional funding, but we first have to get the municipalities’ financial houses in order. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, some of the municipalities are not even able to spend their MIG, because firstly, they cannot attract professionals to their space, as their revenue is small.
Even when they come, some of the engineers go there just to get a bit of experience. Once they get it, they are gone. Financial expertise does not stay there. Planning expertise does not stay there. So, some of the municipalities don’t have the professionals that they need to actually get their house in order.
It is for that reason that I said earlier that we need to work in such a way that we at least ensure expertise in every district, so that they can at least be shared in that space, even if they cannot be in every municipality.
So, I agree, but we cannot just say that they must get their house in order, if they don’t have the professionals they need. So, we need to improve their capacity. Once we have improved their capacity, they will be able to spend what they need to spend.
Also, in terms of revenue, we must remember ... Let me give you an example. When there is no water in a locality and there is a drought, the municipality has to deliver water to the areas with water tankers. That water is not metered and it is not paid for, but the municipality has paid for it to the water board.
So, these are all the things. When all these formulas and everything were put in place, we did not consider who pays for that water when a municipality delivers water with tankers in a rural space.
So, we can blame the municipalities. I am not excusing them. I am saying there are problems. Some of them are corrupt, but there are also genuine problems that we have not addressed properly.
Even if that municipality pays for the water that is metered, they will still owe for the water that was delivered with tankers to the rural community. So, there are a lot of examples like that. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chairperson, related to what you have just said that you cannot blame municipalities in all cases because of the lack of professionals. There are currently municipalities that have been informed by National Treasury that their quarterly payment of the equitable payment will not be paid, in terms of section 216(2) of other Constitution. The residents of these municipalities will suffer as a result of noncompliance by these municipal councils. How will your department mitigate the effect of this on basic essential service delivery and prevent the most vulnerable residents from suffering the consequences. Are you engaging the Minister of Finance on this issue with regard to nonpayment in terms of section 216?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BORORTO): Minister, before you respond, may I remind you of Rule 142(7).
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chair, yes, there is discussion taking place between us and Treasury. However, at the end of the day, Treasury has the purse and they can withhold it or give it. We are discussing it with them, precisely, for the reasons that you have given. It is almost the festive season and people, even those who are working, will be on holiday and it will be a pity if they cannot get the very basic services. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Chairperson, the comment made by the Minister is obviously true that certain municipalities don’t have the capacity and the resources to get their house in order, but there are pertinent examples of fairly large municipalities, including metropolitan municipalities, whose problem is not the equitable share but whose problem is getting the basics right, including collecting revenue.
Now, as we speak, the Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality is on terms with Eskom. Their power will be cut next week if a deal is not made. They also owe money to Bloem Water. The prospect, because of this dysfunctional state
of that metropolitan, is that it will become the first metro in South Africa where water and lights are cut off because of dysfunctional bad governance. My questions is: Will the Minister intervene to stop this metro from having its lights cut off and its taps run dry?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chair, let us be frank with each other. We can only discuss; we don’t have any legislative power to say, stop. Treasury and us ... In fact, Treasury has the authority to do pricing and to make sure that bulk services are paid for, but we work with them. We will try our best, but I cannot stand here and say that it will not happen. We can try, as we have tried in other areas. Thank you.
Question 294:
Sepedi:
TONA YA BASADI, BANA LE BATHO BAO BA SA ITEKANELAGO
OFISING YA MOPRESIDENTE: Modulasetulo, e re ke thome ka gore rena mo Ntlong ye le batho kamoka ba Limpopo le Afrika-Borwa ka bophara, re inamiša difahlego tša rena mo go tlogeleng ke ngwana yo mobotse, yo moswa, gomme ga
bohloko ka phalalo ya madi, e lego Precious Ramabulana. Ka nako ye basadi ba swanetše go ba ba hlokomelwa le go feta ...
English:
... because it is that month again where we should be fighting against gender-based violence and femicide.
Sepedi:
A moya wa gagwe o robale ka khutšo. Bao ba mmolailego ba swarwe ka ponyo ya leihlo.
English:
To the question, gender auditing is a work that we do together with monitoring and evaluation. The Cabinet adopted the Gender-Responsive Planning, Budgeting, Monitoring, Evaluation and Auditing Framework commonly known as the GRPBMEA in March this year, which the Department of Youth, Women and Persons with Disabilities leads on. This framework comprises different elements that are clearly very distinct on their own, yet, very interrelated concepts.
The department has already ensured that for the Medium- Term Strategic Framework 2019 to 2024 containing the seven national priorities of the country includes gender- responsive planning, with gender-responsive indicators and targets. The department is also engaging on the processes of ensuring that all departments in the five- year strategic plans and their 2020-21 annual performance plans also include indicators target and interventions that are gender specific.
On issues of auditing, let me say, hon member, that there is a very clear distinction between a traditional financial audits and that of social audit to which gender auditing falls. While both of them are quality audits, one of the key features of the gender audit is that it is very participatory in nature and also very distinct from our monitoring methods as possible. Gender auditing lends itself well to providing the comprehensive picture of progress made by specific department, organisation or entity in respect of gender mainstreaming and strategies we are using to achieve the goal of gender equality. It will establish the baseline of performance and set out
benchmarks for measuring progress based on set criteria and actions.
The process will also enable identification where critical gaps and challenges exist and will make recommendations on ways of addressing these challenges. It, therefore, entails having a set of trained gender audits facilitators to work with individual departments over a few weeks. The process is multifold assessing key policy documents, measure publications programmes, budgets, motoring and evaluation carried out conduct individual interviews of key personnel partners and relevant constituencies of women in the women sector hold participatory workshops with the departments’ managers and technical workshops.
Ms Z NKOMO: Thank you, House Chair. Indeed, Minister, we need to measure anything that counts including gender auditing. Will your engagement with the Auditor-General look into the possibility of auditing financial expenditure of departments and entities on women empowerment? Thank you.
PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon member. Through you Chair, the Auditor-General has already shown interest in working with us in making sure that we make departments audit even this part that you have just referred to at the moment. The Auditor-General can play a critical role in undertaking a gender audit during annual auditing processes. Thank you.
Mr L MPHITI: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, the Commissioner of Gender Equality has on a number of occasions indicated in our portfolio committee that they require more funding. One of their mandates is about ensuring gender equality, particularly when it comes to the development of gender indicators. Noting, Minister, that you have missed three consecutive meetings of the portfolio committee, and that the joint meeting that was set up last week collapsed under your watch that was supposed to deal with gender-based violence in this country, what is your plan and your department to speak about the issues that are facing women in this country, particularly when it comes to mainstreaming of gender indicators? [Applause.]
PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Well, let me say once again to you that, hon member, the meeting was postponed by the Chair because of documents that were not talking to each other. Let me respond directly to your question that we are working on the conclusion of the current National Strategic Plan and working seal on the six-month programme that had been started by the President, where the President went with us to reach out and get, from particularly the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster departments, R1,6 billion in the meantime to reach out to the scourge of gender-based violence and femicide in our country.
We have said, and we repeat, that as a way we will be celebrating the life of Precious that enough is enough. Not only that, but we should be starting right here to say that no more other woman die in the hands of those who should love and protect them. The responsibility of protecting women in this country is not a responsibility of women alone. It is a responsibility of the society including the hon member. We are all have a
responsibility as a society that women are safe and feel safe.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Mhlonishwa lapho ngaphambili, Ngqongqoshe ayikho into ebuhlungu njengokuthila sizodlala. Lana lento yokuthi kulwisana nokuhlukumezeka kwabantu besifazane. Ngikuthola sekuyibhizinisi okutholakala ukuthi kunama-NGO asedla izimali ngakho ngoba bona bajabulela kuphela ukuthi bazohamba benze lama-16 days of Activism kodwa abantu bebe behlupheka.
Lana eMfuleni kuWadi 108 lapho kunomndeni owashiselwa umuzi, kwafa ingane, nomuntu wesifazane. Icala lavulwa ifayili lakhona latshingwa kanye nenombolo yecala.
Ngihambili ngenyaka eyedlule ngomhla wezi-5 ngalivusa lelocala. Ngifuna ukwazi lamacala avulwa njalo okudlwengula nokubulawa kwabantu besifazane ukuthi azoqulwa nini. Yini ngempela esijabulisayo thina Ngqongqoshe ukuthi sizohamba sigumbe lolu suku ekubeni uma uthi uyabheka izinto azenzeki. Sikhathele yilendlela yokudlala ngalento.
Sepedi:
TONA YA BASADI, BANA LE BATHO BAO BA SA ITEKANELAGO
OFISING YA MOPRESIDENTE: Leloko leo le hlomphegago, mma Khawula, re bolela ka molomo wa lehlabula – re a kwana, gore a e fele taba ya go hlokofatšwa ga basadi la bana mo Afrika-Borwa. Go se ke gwa ba le yoo a dumelelwago go e dira kgwebo, ka gobane go bolaya go ka se tsoge go dirilwe kgwebo. Ke bofšega.
English:
It is people with low self-esteem male, I’m sorry to say that, who find killing and maiming women and children as a playground.
Sepedi:
Rena re re ...
English:
... we are no longer going to work together with you just for 16 days, but 365 days, enough is enough as the President has said.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, why are you rising?
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Mhlonishwa wami ngiyamuzwa ekhuluma uMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, lento ibuhlungu ngoba abantu ababoshiwe kwiyimanje. Kunamacala engiwafakile.
Laba bantu ababoshiwe kuyaziwa. Bona ngoba behamba nonogada.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ngiyabonga Mama.
English:
Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Mam ‘uKhawula indaba yakho ibalulekile kakhulu. Ngicela ukuthi ungamyeki uNgqongqoshe, umbambe uma ephuma lapha nikhulume ngayo lendaba.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, ideally, this department should play an oversight role in
all other departments to see to it that the agenda of women, youth and people living with disabilities carried out. Has this department made an effort to specifically present this agenda with other departments to ensure that there are majors to address this, the historical injustice? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND
PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon member. This matter is a standing item on the cluster meeting of criminal justice system ...
Sepedi:
... mo re dulago le bona batho ba.
English:
I turn around because I saw Minister Cele sitting here, and he was with us in Lephalale the other day. Therefore, when we were launching 16 Days of Activism, he came out with the six-point plan and outlined the things that they will be doing from the police’s side from a rape kits to all the things that we will need. Working together with social development and all other departments including
justice, they are busy launching special code throughout the country. Within the next coming 12 months odd we will have 12 new ones. One has been launched in Limpopo. Yes, a journey of less than six months cannot be that of five years. Join us in ensuring that as we adopt the National Strategic Framework, the new one, we are making use of this time and period like the President has given us of six months, ensuring ...
Sepedi:
... gore, ge re re go lekane, go lekane; go be bjalo.
Question 319:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, section 41 of the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, provides for the National Treasury to monitor prices and payments for bulk resources.
Further, the Act provides for each organ of state, providing such bulk resources to a municipality, to within 15 days after the end of each month furnish the National Treasury with the written statements setting out for each municipality, for each municipal entity
providing municipal services on behalf of such municipalities, the amount to be paid by the municipality or municipal entity for such bulk resources for that month and for the financial year up to the end of the month.
The arrears owing and the age profile of such arrears and any action taken by that organ of state to recover arrears.
So, though it is under section 41 of the Municipal Financial Management Act, that is for Treasury to monitor prices and payments for bulk resources. We do work with them Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, to try and assist municipalities. That’s all I can say.
Inkosi B N LUTHULI: Hon Minister, in as much as municipalities owes Eskom and the water boards billions of rand, it is not merely as heavy as the debt owed by municipalities, by households and the state. What has the department done so far in ensuring that there are campaigns run cultivating and a culture of payment by the
community for service rendered, given that the culture on non-payment for the services by the citizens had been condemned by both the Minister of Finance and the President of the country?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I think that campaign should be waged by everyone, every single one of us must wage that campaign of changing the culture of non-payment so that everybody pays for what they use.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Sorry, hon Minister. Do you mind to talk into the mic, I think ... thank you ma. I’m sorry for that. Continue. Yes, thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Hhawu, ubungangizwa. Ngiyaxolisa. Bengithi lo mkhankaso wokuthi abantu bakhokhe bakhokhele izinsiza kufanele kube umkhankaso esiwenzayo sonke. Njengoba kuzovalwa nje kufanele ukuthi sonke uma siya kuzifunda zethu siwubambe lo mkhankaso. Wonke umuntu akhokhe,
kungabibikho umuntu ongakhokhi kodwa sikhumbule futhi ukuthi kukhona abangakwazi ukukhokha - abampofu [indigent.]. Ngakho ke labo abakwazi ukukhokha noma singakhankasa sifikephi – abakwazi ukukhokha. Laba abakwazi ukukhokha kufanele ukuthi bakhokhe.
Nabantu abasebenzayo kuhulumeni komasipala kufuneka bakhokhe. Nabantu abasebenza emabhizinisini kufanele bakhoke. Nohulumeni kaZwelonke nowezifundazwe uma ngabe ekweleta umasipala kufanele awukhokhele umasipala. Akekho umuntu okufanele angakhokhi. No-Eskom uma ekweleta umasipala kufanele akhokhele umasipala. Wonke umuntu kufanele akhokhe. Ngiyabonga.
English:
Mr C BRINK: Chairperson, as a courtesy to the Minister I must just inform her that I’m going to put this question in my mother tongue, for translation purposes.
Afrikaans:
Minister, Eskom dreig om teen volgende week ... [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Brink, just take ... Let’s allow her to have her mic on.
Afrikaans:
Baie dankie.
Minister, Eskom dreig om teen volgende week beurtkrag binne werksure toe te pas in die Mamusa munisipaliteit in die Noordwes. Dit sal rampspoedige ekonomiese en maatskaplike gevolge hê vir die gemeenskappe van Ipelegeng and Schweizer-Reneke, selfs diegene wat wel hul munisipale rekeninge betaal.
Die Mamusa munisipaliteit skuld Eskom sowat R80 miljoen, en dit terwyl die Dr Ruth Segomotsi Mompati distriksmunisipaliteit vir die munisipaliteit omtrent R20 miljoen skuld. So die distrik skuld die munisipaliteit omtrent R20 miljoen.
My vraag is, wat is die advies van die Minister aan die inwoners van Mamusa wat wel hul munisipale rekeninge
betaal en wat geaffekteer gaan word as die krag volgende week afgesit gaan word. Dankie.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Hhayi ke, angazi nami ukuthi ngizothini kodwa siyathemba ukuthi ngeke bacishelwe ugesi.
Siyathemba ukuthi uNgqongqoshe lo wezimali, nathi nomasipala sizozama ukuthi bangacishelwa, kodwa anginaso iseluleko kubahlali. Ngaphandle kokuthi sizozama ukuthi umasipala u-Eskom angawucishi ugesi, acishele abantu abakhokhayo ngoba uma abahlali bekhokha akufanelanga ngokomthetho bacishelwe ugesi. Ngakho ke kufanele kuxoxwe nomasipala kodwa uMamusa vele ungumasipala nje osenkingeni. Uma ngabe uyakhumbula useze wafakwa kusiGaba
139 C ngoba kunenkinga kakhulu. Sekuze kwathiwa kuncono uhlakazwe kuyokhethwa kabusha ngoba kunenkinga enkulu eMamusa. Ngiyabonga.
English:
Mr S N SWART: Hon Minister, you correctly indicated that this is a very complex issue with a culture of non-
payment that does need to be addressed and we should all try to assist in that regard.
I would like to just focus on the one area and that is
... as we know many municipalities, in fact all, buy their bulk services, whether it is water or electricity from the bulk service providers. And that is seen as part
... they’ve been sell it on.
Is it not possible, the fact that they are selling it on and they are deriving revenue to ring fence that revenue that they obtain for selling electricity to consumers or sell in water to ring fence it which will enable and ensure that those funds are then paid over to the bulk service providers? That could be a possible option to resolve this outstanding debt. Thank you so much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, yes, I think it’s an option but I think as you say yourself, it’s complex, because in some instances they buy the services and they sell them less than the price they buying it. So, even if they are paying everything that they get, they still owe. So, we
are also trying to work with them so that they don’t buy from Eskom, for example, ten rands and sell for eight rands, because thy will forever be owing Eskom if they do that. But some of the municipalities are actually doing that and
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ngiyaxolisa ikibalekele i-Mic.
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Hhawu, njengoba iseduze kangakanami.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Uyayizwa manje isiyazwakala.
English:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Did you hear me? Okay, thank you. He heard. Thanks.
Mrs K N F HLONYANA: House Chair, Eskom has now resolved to switch off the lights for municipalities that did not
pay their debts, even after there were arrangements made previously. Are you in support of Eskom terminating their services to defaulting municipalities? And secondly, what impact will this have on the functioning of municipalities and its citizens? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, I’m not in support of citizens being deprived of electricity, especially if they pay for it. So, I’m not in support of it. And the impact, obviously, will be dire during December if people don’t have electricity.
So, what we can do, I don’t know, Minister of Finance and all of us, I don’t know because we have been assisting municipalities to make arrangements with Eskom to pay their debt slowly but some of them still even default even on that arrangement.
But we cannot also punish paying citizens for the fault of municipalities. So, we have to find a way of dealing with it. Thank you.
Question 301:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: Thank
you very much, House Chair. The response to that question
... Due to the nature of the question, what we did was to divide the response into three. I will start with the first part which takes one section, namely how far is the Public Service from reflecting the stated intention of government to build a professional, meritocratic and reskilled Public Service?
The answer to that part is as follows. The Department of Public Service and Administration has a Human Resource Development Strategic Framework which is a blueprint for capacity-building and the development of public servants to enable them to competitively or competently undertake their responsibilities in line with the mandate and priorities of government. The intent of this framework is to build an efficient, effective, professional and developmentally-orientated Public Service through the establishment of policies, structures and operational processes for capable and high-performing employees.
As part of continuous improvement in implementing the framework, there has been a review to align ... So the strategy has been reviewed to align it to the visions of government’s macro-developmental policies, namely the National Qualifications Framework Act ... 2008, the New Growth Path 2010, the National Development ... 2011 and the national Human Resource Development Strategy for South Africa ... towards 2030. These are all the key policies that have been developed over time and according to which human resource development has been reviewed.
Finally, an in-depth evaluation report of the implementation of human resource development in the Public Service between 2009 and 2014 ... that in the evaluation is available.
The second part of the question deals with organisational culture, ethics and the Public Service. Our response to that section is as follows. The Public Service Regulations 2016 brought about the following reforms as far as ethics and integrity management is concerned.
There are quite a host of those. One, employees are prohibited from conducting business with organs of state;
two, employees are prohibited from accepting bribes and gratifications, and the context under which gifts can be accepted is clearly stated; three, employees are required to report unethical conduct, corruption and noncompliance to the Public Service Act 1994 and the Public Service Regulations 2016; four, the performance of other remunerative work was standardised; five, ethics infrastructure was introduced to specific anticorruption management functions, allocated to the head of department, HOD, including whistle-blowing; and six, from April 2014 all senior management service, SMS, members were required to disclose their financial interests, but with the extension of categories ... after April 2018 disclosures were required from middle management service, MMS, members, professionals on occupational specific dispensation, OSD, salary levels 11 and 12, supply chain management personnel, finance personnel, the ethics office and Public Service Commission, PSC, officials working in financial disclosures.
Therefore, there has been an extension to other categories below SMS level. An intention is to extend disclosures to all employees in the Public Service. An
electronic system, eDisclosure, was introduced in August 2016 to improve on compliance with financial disclosure regulations. All designated employees are required to use the eDisclosure system to submit their financial disclosure forms.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION:
There’s a third section to the question. I need your guidance, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, hon Minister. With the discretion that I have, you still have a minute but you need to wrap it up please.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: Thank
you very much. The third section talks about roots of participatory democracy at all levels and spheres through building partnerships with the civil service. We can talk about the Public Service Charter. That is one lever for participatory democracy. There are also the Batho Pele
principles as they apply, and further to that there is the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, which encourages participation at all levels, particularly within civil society. These are all the mechanisms that we wanted to talk about.
Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, professionalising the Public Service requires the continuous training and reskilling of public servants to new ways of doing things, including technological advancement.
What additional measures will the department implement to reskill public servants in this age of the Fourth Industrial Revolution?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: The
Public Service is reliant on the National School of Government, NSG, for all programmes on training, including the ones that you are referring to on the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Over and above the NSG, we rely on different executive authorities, EAs, and their
departments to keep apace with the needs of each department and generally of the Public Service.
So there is ongoing training and in-service training programmes that take place within the Public Service but there are ones that are prescribed which are specific and that are ongoing, and each year a number of public servants are required to go through those programmes in the NSG, and it is working. Thank you.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you, Chair. Hon Chair, just two days ago the PSC released its latest Pulse of the Public Service report. The report highlights that national and provincial departments still owe our job-creating businesses billions in unpaid invoices. The report also shows that public servants routinely ignore court rulings without anyone having been fired. The fundamental cause of this is that we have the wrong people in the Public Service because politicians have the power to appoint public servants, to dismiss officials and to discipline them.
If we are serious about building a professional and meritocratic Public Service, we must give these powers to the PSC. My question to the Minister is, will you support the DA’s pending legislation to abolish cadre deployment and empower the PSC to handle senior appointments, dismissals and discipline in the Public Service?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: Well,
maybe I should respond by asking you another question that says the following. Will the DA support the policy of government as determined and as being rolled out throughout the Public Service? My guess is that you will and you are, and we have to appreciate your co-operation in this regard.
However, if you are talking about the need for improvement, yes, and I think we are working very well with you in the portfolio committee to make sure we make progress in terms of those improvements. I haven’t heard any contradiction from whatever views that you have raised since I got appointed. Therefore, I don’t think we in this House must attempt to further politicise what we need to do in the Public Service. I think we must reduce
that, and co-operate and work together so that we promote professionalism within the Public Service. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you Chairperson. Minister, section 195 of the Constitution enjoins the Public Service to be broadly representative of the South African people and that those previously excluded from employment and personnel management practices be included.
Do you think the systematic exclusion of black executives from the management of state-owned enterprises, SOEs, is in sync with the Constitution?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: Let me
start by indicating that we are responsible for the Public Service in terms of the Public Service Act and the Public service Management Act. The category of workers that you are talking about is not part of our responsibility. However, as we move on in terms of implementing the Public service Management Act we will be applying norms and standards as required by the Public service Management Act.
Therefore, I am not in a position — unless I want to mislead you — to answer directly to that particular question. However, I would see it as falling within ... and taking the form that all of us want to take ... that we don’t want ... we just want public servants to be ethical. We want them to be professional. We want less unnecessary interference from EAs and so on. That is the line broadly, even in SOEs, even though we don’t necessarily apply the Public Service Act to those as yet.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon M D Hlengwa?
Mr M N NXUMALO: Hon House Chair, my apologies. I will be taking the question. My gadget still does not seem to be working since yesterday.
Minister, in order to build the said vision of a public sector truly reflective of the will of the people, corruption, irregular and wasteful expenditure needs to be addressed. I would like to know whether your department has engaged other departments that have been found to irregularly spend and what steps have been taken
to prosecute and recover irregular and wasteful expenditure? If not, why? If so, what are the relevant details?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSITRATION: Let me
start by saying that earlier on my colleague, Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, indicated the new development in relation to the powers of the Auditor-General, AG, where the AG is now empowered to, on his own, decide on measures in relation to irregular and fruitless expenditure and other related expenditures. He is empowered to issue a certificate to the accounting officer relevant ... a certificate of liability in terms of which the relevant accounting officer can be made solely liable for whatever fruitless or irregular expenditure ... That’s measure number one. All of us support that and we think it’s taking the right direction in terms of, not only enjoining accounting officers to do their work and do it perfectly, but also in terms of consequence.
Apart of that, EAs, service supervisors, to their HODs, and directors-general, DGs, ... and one of the things
that all of us as Ministers have to do is to minister, meaning that we have a duty to ensure that whatever accountability measures we implement ... and follow up on those measures. There are many in all the departments, and in turn HODs and DGs have similar responsibilities done as per deployment of powers to perform particular tasks.
Question 306:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. The prerogative of intervening in a municipality lies with the province. The province can intervene and the procedure is clear; the executive council must take are solution to intervene, they can intervene, for instance, under section 154 but usually they intervene under section 139, when the municipality fails in its responsibility, whether in governance, or financial and service delivery and they can intervene by issuing out directives or taking over administration under 139(b) or by dissolving the municipality under section 139(c), or by taking the appropriate steps to ensure that the budget or revenue measures are improved under section 139(4), or by placing
a recovery plan and possible dissolution of municipal council under section 139(5).
The National Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs have no locus standi in intervening. However, what is required under section 139(b) is that when the province has taken the decision to intervene there must get concurrence with the national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, but if it is under section 139(5) we just get informed we don’t have to concur. So, the question is, whether I have any intention of intervening? I cannot intervene. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Thank you, Chair. I want to differ with the Minister on one aspect. That is, the province does not intervene or it fails in its subsection 4 and 5 intervention in terms of 139(7), the national government has a responsibility to intervene in the province and that is the fair and safe mechanism that are system of intergovernmental relations has in terms of the Constitution. So, the national government does have a role to play, Minister.
Of course, it is not suggested that national government place a province under administration every time there is a problem in the municipality, but surely there is a role to play actively to address these things. Minister, the DA is in possession of an email sent by the deputy manager of corporate support services of the Mogalakwena Local Municipality last year November. The email invites general workers, who had already been appointed to come and submit their curriculum vitae, CV. Which suggest that this is after the fact of regularising of an irregularity. We also have sources who give us information to this effect.
My question is, when the Minister is confronted with evidence of this nature of irregularities in the municipality what does she do? And, will she take up this issue of Mogalakwena Local Municipality? I do have a copy of the email for her perusal. Thank you very much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. I know that the Member of the Executive Council, MEC, and the province are dealing with the matter. We will just await their conclusion, but
I know that they are dealing with the matter. Not because of the email but because of many other things. They are dealing with the matter of Mogalakwena Local Municipality
...
AN HON MEMBER: ... what do you do?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: ... we are waiting for them to conclude their process but they are dealing with it. We just need to wait for that. In terms of the national intervening, yes, we have been intervening. In the North West we intervened. However, it does not mean that as you say it yourself that if there is one municipality that has a problem then the province has to be under administration, no, it won’t happen like that. However, Mokgalakoena is being dealt with, just wait a week or so, it is being dealt with you will see. Thank you.
Mr K CEZA: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, Municipal Public Accounts Committee, Mpac have dismally faille to hold the executives to account. Do you not think that Municipal Public Accounts Committee in
municipalities are swallowed in the politics of patronage? Do you not think that Municipal Public Accounts Committee could maximise their performance in municipalities in the same way in which the Select Committee on Public Accounts delivers its mandate? How would you ensure that the Municipal Public Accounts Committee, fulfil their constitutional mandate in terms of section 79 of the Municipal Structures Act? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I just wish that we could listen because earlier I did say that Treasury and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, have worked on a guide and a toolkit and are training councillors on how to deal with their responsibilities if they are in the Municipal Public Accounts Committee. We are doing something about it together with Treasury and I said it earlier but it was a different question. Okay. Thank you.
Mrs G OPPERMAN: Thank you, House Chair. With the exception of Lepelle-Nkumpi Local Municipality, most municipalities in Limpopo are dangerously dysfunctional.
The province is aware of this and they are failing to intervene proactively. Are you aware, Minister, that in Thabazimbi Municipality eight ANC councillors individually owe the municipality up to R78 000 each for the past two years? This is despite schedule 1 of the Municipal Systems Act being clear that a councillor should not be in arrears for more than three months. How will the department address the issue in this municipality?
Mr K CEZA: Point of order, Chair. My question was not based on whether the councillors are trained or not. It was based on the Municipal Public Accounts Committees mandate in terms of section 79 of the Municipal Systems Act ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... okay, okay, hon member.
Mr K CEZA: Perhaps the Minister could not get me on that one. So, in that sense I am not answered, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member ... can I deal with it. Hon member, the Minister has responded to the question. If the hon member is not happy with the answer, we still have your supplementary questions you will deal with that at that stage. However, for now the Minister has answered the question to the best of her ability so far. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson, just a point of order. I think the member is clarifying the Minister that she misunderstood the question. Don’t protect her, Chairperson, just check with her if she misunderstood the question or not so that we can get a proper answer. That is all.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have ruled on that, hon member. Thank you.
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you, Sir. I wonder if our member could just restate her question. I think she’s probably been ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... can I take advice on that? For now ... hon Minister, would you like to respond again?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: No, I am responding to Opperman. Didn’t she ask a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, yes, there was a question. She can ask the question again ... hon Opperman.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: ... she wants ... I know what she asked, but if she has to ask again it is fine.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Opperman
...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... Chairperson, are you asking the Minister if she ant to respond to the EFF question, please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi
...
Ms H O MKHALIPI: ... no, she want to respond to us.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, just hold. Okay, just hold.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You should realise that hon Ceza was posing a question when it was hon Opperman’s time to pose a question, alright?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Oh, okay. So, you were referring to this member, not our member?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Not ...
[Interjections.] ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... I am not talking to you, I am talking to the Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... hon Mkhaliphi, yes.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Oh, okay ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... can we restart the process ... I will deal with that ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... please, please, Chairperson, you must be clear now, you must not confuse things because we want our questions to be answered as well. Otherwise we will call bouncers now.
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: On a point of order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, you are out of order. Hon Opperman, can we restart this
... [Interjections.] ... can you do your part as well.
Mrs G OPPERMAN: Thank you, House Chair. With the exception of Lepelle-Nkumpi Local Municipality, most municipalities in Limpopo are dangerously dysfunctional. The province is aware of this and they are failing to intervene proactively. Are you, Minister, aware that in Thabazimbi Municipality eight ANC councillors individually owe the municipality up to R78 000 each for rates and services for the past two years? This is despite schedule 1 of the Municipal Systems Act being clear that councillors should not be in arrears for more than three months. How will her department address this issue?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, are you in a position to answer?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: If Thabazimbi is not able to run the municipality they must say so because you can’t say that councillor so and so in Thabazimbi has done this, then what will the national Minister do? If you can’t run that municipality let us know and we will run it for you.
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ceza! Hon Ceza.
Mr K CEZA: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, you posed a supplementary question.
Mr K CEZA: Yes, I did Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Minister answered the way she did. I cannot dictate what the hon Minister should say or should not say, but the opportunity that is available to you - if you are not happy or not satisfied with the answer that you got – is that you still have an opportunity to put your question in writing so that you get an answer. What is important here is whether you got an answer to take to your constituency. Thank you very much.
Mr K CEZA: Chairperson, I just want to ask the question
... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... let us not dialogue about it, hon member.
Mr K CEZA: ... what becomes the use for the exercise to come here and ask questions?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ceza, I made a ruling on that. Would you mind to accept it? Can we continue, hon Phiri ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... Chairperson ... hi Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Mkhaliphi?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, it seems as if you don’t even understand what you are raising as well. You are saying, Chair ... [Interjetions.] ... Wait ... you are saying Chairperson, she responded and she responded and she does not provide the answer as per the question ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... hon Mkhaliphi ...
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... Chaiperson, wait ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... hon Mkhaliphi, we can’t have a situation where we will do what we are doing.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson, we are not saying that we are not happy about the response, we are saying that she is responding on the misinformed position ...
Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: ... hon Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... hon Mkhaliphi, as you continue I will have to switch off your microphone.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: But wena [you], what is your problem, wena [you]? What is your problem?
Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Uh ... point of order, Chairperson.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... you are not even a whip, wena [you] man! Sit down! You must fall, mnx.
AN HON MEMBER: On a point of order!
Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: ... point of order, Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon member? ... Can one of you take a seat?
Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Chairperson, I am rising on Rule
92 to say, if you made any ruling there shouldn’t be any follow up on your ruling. We must abide by that Rule in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, hon members! Can we be in order, please? Hon members!
Ms C M PHIRI: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, does the department have any machinery in place in taking appropriate steps to ensure that the budget or revenue raising measures are approved where a municipality is
placed under section 154 and subsequently section 139. I thank you?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon member, I will answer that question later because it does not arise directly from this question. It is a totally different question but I will answer it.
Thank you.
Question 302:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Maneli, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Service are the exact authorities responsible for leading the amendments on these legislative frameworks we have mentioned, which includes the Municipal Finance Management Act, the Public Finance Management Act and the Public Service Act. Having said so, we will nonetheless make our inputs into the amendments as per normal legislative review processes.
As part of this process, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency subjects new laws and regulations to the Socioeconomic Impact Assessment System, Seias, process before submission to
Cabinet and Parliament. The assessments results will inform Cabinet if the revisions of the Public Finance Management Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act enable and facilitate rather than impede developmental objectives and effective and efficient implementation of programmes whilst ensuring accountability, transparency and combating fraud and corruption. Ke a leboga [Thank you.]
Mr B M MANELI: Thank you hon Minister for the response that is reassuring - which states that by the time these pieces of legislations are introduced, Cabinet and Parliament would have been assured that a socioeconomic impact assessment has been done. But Minister, whilst waiting for the responsible department to introduce proposed amendments to these pieces of legislation - what other measures has government introduced to ensure that our development objectives are achieved as outlined in the National Development Plan? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you once again, hon Maneli. Outside of these legislative prescripts, the sixth administration has identified seven priorities to
respond to impediments to our developmental objectives and fast-track economic development. These seven priorities we all know. The first priority focuses on economic transformation and job creation; the second on education, skills and ensuring health to our nation; the third one on consolidating the social wage through reliable and quality basic services; the fourth one, spatial integration, human settlements and local government; the fifth one, social cohesion and safe communities - including the fight against corruption and crime; the sixth one, a capable, ethical and developmental state, and lastly - the seventh one, a better Africa and a better world.
These seven priorities have informed the crafting of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework which will guide and anchor the work of government in the next five years to achieve developmental objectives in line with the National Development Plan. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MALATSI: Minister Mthembu, given the rampant corruption in the public service, will the Presidency support the blacklisting of public servants and
politicians who have proven track records of unethical behaviour, incompetence and failure - some of whom are known ANC leaders, and prevent them from working in the public service as part of measures to prevent government departments and entities from recycling the same failed officials and politicians into the public service, if not, what are your reasons?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Malatsi, you know that there are ample pieces of legislation in this country to deal with any incidences of corruption - whether in the public service or in the private sector, therefore, we have the means to deal with corruption. And as we have said, one of our priorities is dealing with corruption and crime in our country. We would not be found wanting in relation to these matters and we have the necessary legislative framework to ensure that corruption is dealt with. Thank you very much.
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: House Chairperson, I just would like to say that I am glad that Mr Mthembu knows who the real Minister should be.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But hon Hill Lewis, no! [Interjections.] I think the hon Maotwe is to follow.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much House Chair, through you to the Minister in the Presidency, part of your mandate is monitoring, planning and evaluation. I think I am right. We have Acts that are nicely written but are never implemented. We have the Public Finance Management Act, the Municipal Finance Management Act and the Public Service Act. The question is, “What is failing you and your department to be more proactive than being reactive?”
Every year when the Auditor-General comes here, we hear him giving us very bad reports about many departments in your government. All state-owned enterprises, SOEs, right now as they stand, are getting disclaimers, which is a very bad thing. What measures do you have in place to make sure that ... You spoke about lifestyle audits earlier on, but that is what you are going to use as a factional tool for your own government. Tell us what you
are going to do that is going to prevent us from experiencing what we are experiencing now.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: You know - the planning, monitoring and evaluation approach is an approach that government has just adopted a few years ago, but such an approach has also not found concrete expression even at local level. We are of course busy trying to ensure that such an approach is rolled out to our provincial offices, through the offices of the premiers. Therefore, this exercise that we have started is indeed a work in progress.
After some time, all of us will do some evaluation and see whether there are any other activities we need to include in our planning, monitoring and evaluation efforts, but at the moment we think we are on track. We know that there are many other metros and municipal offices that also are getting assistance from us to ensure that there is effective monitoring at those levels as well. I can assure you that if we didn’t have the capacity to plan, monitor and evaluate, the probability
is that we would be in a worse off situation now. Thank you very much.
Question 290:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. I think it’s important for us to understand the different spheres and what their responsibilities are.
Now to be asked about tenders in the municipalities is a bit too much because you can’t quote me any regulation or rule that says the National Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs can now intervene in tenders at the municipalities. I think we must accept where we do not have the legislative or legal means to go and intervene in a municipality on tenders. There are rules; there are regulations on how municipalities must issue tenders.
Now if they issue them fraudulently, the law must take its course. So for me, all I can say is that the Municipal Finance Management Act empowers the National Treasury to play directive and oversight. But to this
end, the Treasury on 30 May 2014 published the Municipal Regulations on Financial Misconduct Procedures and Criminal Proceedings. These regulations set out processes and procedures and reporting requirements to expeditiously deal with allegations of financial misconduct. These regulations must be read together with the Municipal Systems Act, 2000, and the regulations issued in terms thereof.
Furthermore, municipalities are required to establish disciplinary boards to assist the municipal council or the board of directors of a municipal entity with the investigation of allegations of financial misconduct.
For our part and in order to reinforce our efforts to fight corruption and promote good governance, the department has rolled out training programmes since the beginning of 2017-18 financial year in each district level on the Local Government Anti-Corruption Strategy and the Municipal Integrity Management Framework. The strategy sets out the objectives that must be pursued by municipalities to prevent and combat corruption.
The department has almost completed the training in the 90% of the districts and metros. This will be completed in the next financial year.
So, in combating and further preventing corruption, the department is working with provinces and municipalities to ensure the implementation of recommendations emanating from forensic reports. Most of the forensic reports made recommendations that certain remedial or other corrective measures should be taken.
Furthermore, the department is collaborating with the SA Local Government Association, Salga, the Ethics Institute
and the Moral Regeneration Movement to launch the local government ethical leadership initiative.
In addition to this, the department will continue to collaborate with law enforcement agencies such as Special Investigating Unit, SIU, the Hawks and National Prosecuting Authority to support investigation and prosecutions in municipalities, as well as the implementation of recommendations emanating from the
forensic reports. That’s what we are doing. That’s what the Treasury has done. But we have no direct way of intervening. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, I am very disappointed at your response. It is very clear, even Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng has said, this country; provincial, local and national loses over
R200 billion a year in this country. Now the question is, what the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is doing to mitigate or putting measures in place so that this corruption that is taking place particularly with fraud in tenders’ not getting value for money in all spheres of government?
It is the responsibility of the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. I know that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is a toothless body nationally when it comes to issues dealing with the provinces and locally because you cannot do anything about it, Minister, provincial tell national, don’t interfere, this is a provincial mandate.
Now the question is, what measures are you putting in place to mitigate, to stop this level of looting in all spheres of government so that we get value for money and take that extra R200 billion and put it into the delivery of services in the country? [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. As the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, earlier I talk about how we are trying to work as a government, not as distinct spheres. I said that this way of working at a district level will also introduce transparency because if we all have one plan, one budget, and we know who is supposed to do what and when, that will introduce a level of accountability because everybody will know what the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is supposed to do in these districts.
Everybody will know how much money is supposed to be spent on that project and when it is supposed to be done. So, obviously if there is a school or a bridge or municipal offices to be built and they are not built, the
money is disappearing, we will all know and we will take action in this one plan one budget.
But I am talking about as things stands today. That’s why we have said, we have learned lessons from the past 25 years of working in an uncoordinated, non-integrated, non-cooperative way. That’s why now we are introducing that. That’s why we are piloting that so that indeed everyone can be accountable both for implementing but also for the resources that are being spent.
But it’s also for the same reason that the Auditor- General introduce the amendment so that he can actually give a certificate of debts to the person who has done wrong and the debts be collected. So, there are measures. There are measures that we are taking in terms of co- operative governance so that we stop this thing of saying no this is national spheres, this is provincial sphere and this is local. That’s precisely why the District Development Model is being piloted so that we can all have sight on what is supposed to happen in every district in this country by who and for how much. So, we
are doing that because we have recognised the weaknesses that were there. Thank you.
Mr C BRINK: Thanks, Chair. Minister, a big reason why tender fraud and wastage in municipalities balloons to such an extent is because officials who commit irregularities or fraud or corruption can get away so easily. So, today you have spent a great deal of time telling us how little you can do from a co-operative governance perspective.
But one thing that you can do, Minister, is to keep a list of officials who have been dismissed in municipalities, all who have resigned in anticipation of facing disciplinary consequences. If fact, section 57 (a) of the Municipal Systems Act anticipates or requires the Minister to keep such a list.
Of course, its purpose would be to stop job hoppers from resigning from one municipality where they have created a mess or stolen money or broken the rules and in being hired at a different municipality.
Minister, of course, we can talk about the examples of chief financial officers under whose watch money deposited in VBS Bank. Has that list been updated, Minister? Thanks very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Yes, that list is there, but that list does not
... When somebody is going to be employed, we get informed and we have to look at it, look at whether they meet the requirements and advice. But not every level of official in a municipality we are informed about. So, for those that we are informed about, yes, but there are laws at a lower level who we are not informed about who worked in the municipalities.
Sometimes people working in the supply chain may not necessarily be in the category where when they are employed we get informed. So, yes, you are right where we get informed by law but there are others where we don’t get informed. It still happens. That’s why I was saying we work with the Hawks, we work with everybody where fraud has been committed so that they can investigate and find out what is going on.
But the councils themselves, because we are talking here as though there is no oversight in the municipalities, the councils must also take their responsibilities in the municipalities. Thank you.
Mr K CEZA: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, will the government consider abolishing tenders for good governance because up to date, since 1994, the manner in which the tenders are designed, they are only designed only to benefit a few in societies with meagre salaries that are given to workers resulting in this R240 billion tender fraud that could not provide a permanent work.
So, how the Minister is going to put measures in place for government to do away with tenders so that we deal with the issue of unemployment permanently in South Africa? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The Minister of Finance ...
IsiZulu:
... ungibuka kabi njengoba ngisukuma ngakhoke ngeke ngize ngiwuphendule lowo mbuzo.
English:
But let me say that where tenders are done wrongly, this must be addressed. The important thing in the District Model ... [Interjections.] Let me finish. The important thing in the District Model is really to ensure that we have people who can do the work in the district. Once the District Model works, we will not have municipalities getting consultants or service providers doing tenders even for Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, even for their financial reports, even for all these things just doing tenders. We want them to have capacity to do it internally. That’s the first thing.
But of course, if there is a big bridge in the N2 that needs to be built then they cannot do that. Local
government will have to get a company that can do that. But it should be done properly. And also, if we train people in the district, they can provide a lot of the services. Even in the existing companies, for instance,
if there is an auto company, the government is saying young people should be trained to provide the spares. The spares must not come from all over the place. There must be manufactured here by small companies that then feed to the big companies.
So, the important thing is to ensure that we have small and medium enterprises that do the work because if we don’t do that we will end up with this kind of situations, and also train our young peoples so that their skills addressed what the economy needs.
I agree with you that, you can’t give me a tender to provide SAA with aircrafts.
IsiZulu:
Ngazini ngalokho?
English:
If I get such a tender, it’s wrong. That kind of tender that can be given to me to buy aircrafts for SAA will not be good for me. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. I was just about to address the denouement, hon Minister, of your voice. But you ended up at a climax.
Thank you very much.
Mr K CEZA: I think once again, Chair, I will ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ceza, I did not recognise you.
Ms A F MUTHAMBI: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the amendment of the Public Audit Act provides the Auditor- General with more powers to ensure accountability. The question to you, Minister, is that, what is your department doing in making sure that all the entities that report within your portfolio support the Auditor- General in this regard?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. Let me start by saying yes, there are problems in the department, for instance, let’s start with the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs. There are problems there but we are dealing with them.
Obviously, when the Auditor-General has a disclaimer in the department, for instance, may end up issuing a certificate debts somewhere if he feels that something was done wrongly by an individual or accounting individual, obviously, we will support him.
But the audit committee and other entities are working and we are also developing a plan. We have a plan to make sure we address some of the issues that the Auditor- General has been raising in his audit, for instance, there are lots of things that the Auditor-General has raised. But in Traditional Affairs, they got a clean audit. The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, got a clean audit. But where there are issues, we are addressing them so that, firstly, we improve. But also, the officials themselves need to make sure that they don’t end up with a certificate of debts from the
Auditor-General. We are doing our best but we are starting from a very low base of a disclaimer, not one year but a number of years. Thank you.
Question 307:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the amalgamation of Ventersdorp and Tlokwe local municipalities which resulted in the formation of the JB Marks Local Municipality in 2016, I would frankly say that it hasn’t achieved all its intended results. If we judge it by the rate of community protests relating to service delivery, I would say it hasn’t. But there have been some improvements. It is not all gloom and doom. There have been some improvements in service delivery at a very slow pace. For, example, the municipality managed to stabilise electricity network in Ventersdorp. More households have been connected to the grids than before the merge and they have been able to buy more equipments and yellow fleets and deployed them in Ventersdorp to fast-track service delivery.
However, in recent times there have been community protests that took place in Ventersdorp on matters relating to service delivery again. As a result the premier of the province has established a technical task team comprising officials from provincial government and from the municipality to address the concerns. We were
also been in formed that the task team meets on a monthly basis with the communities of Ventersdorp to address the challenges. We also know that the municipality is finalising a master plan to address service delivery backlogs and to promote more development in the area to stimulate economic growth. Thank you.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Thank you so much, House Chair. Hon Minister, I appreciate your honesty and the fact that it hasn’t achieved the desired fruit. All of these happen in the midst of you heading an interministerial task team where the province and ten portfolios in the province itself are under administration. Minister, the ANC in 2001 had 61% of the votes in Tlokwe, JB Marks. In 2016, they got 50,8% of the votes in JB Marks. Can you tell us the truth of why the amalgamation had to take place?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The amalgamation took place in 2016, and not in the midst of me being in the North West. I think you got your years wrong. There was a need to amalgamate because there it was thought that amalgamating the two will make them a stronger municipality than when they are separate
- the weaker one would be strengthened by the stronger one when they are amalgamated. I think that was the reason.
Of course, mergers don’t just merge and everything work well the following day; it takes time. Even the merger itself takes time because you are taking two municipalities that may not be belonging to the same class. One municipality may have high salaries and the other one have lower salaries and all sorts of things that have to be dealt with in a merge. So you can’t say it has failed in a few years. I am just being honest by saying I can’t say I stand here today and say everything is okay. But there is progress and we have just to work hard at it. It is not a sprint but a marathon. Thank you.
Mr B M HADEBE: Thank you, Hon House Chair. Hon Minister, following the Minister’s request in terms of section 22(2) of the Municipal Demarcation Act, the Municipal Demarcation Board has raised concerns that during the process of redetermination of boundaries many municipalities do not fully participate in the process. The question is, how can the department intervene or
assist in ensuring that there is maximum participation particularly from those affected municipalities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. Yes, you are correct. We have started working with the Demarcation Board to make sure that when they go to a municipality, the municipality and the councillors in that municipality are informed. The community must know that they must participate. This is something that we are doing. Yes, they have raised that with us that when they go to municipalities they only meet with planners in the municipality and people don’t know, councillors don’t come, and then when the demarcation has been done they start complaining because they were not in the discussions. So it is something that we are working on as I say we are making sure that they are informed and we hope that they will indeed participate. There is a process of encouraging them to participate in those discussions. Thank you.
Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, in 2017, the Financial and Fiscal Commission’s, FFC,
submission to the Division of Revenue Bill published results of a research that they did with regard to amalgamation of municipalities. The research that they published was very clear. What you’ve just said why this amalgamation happened to actually save the municipality is not the case. And they based it on case studies of what was done previously. In all those cases all the towns affected were worse off. So is it not time, Minister, to stop the amalgamations and focus on smaller effective units of service delivery? Is it not time for a new approach as this one has clearly failed? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. What we have decided as the department is to do a proper study of why they are failing, and where there is success then we see why it is succeeding. As a department we are not going to ask for more amalgamations until we understand why they are not working properly as envisaged. So we are not going to be asking for more amalgamations because when we research we may find that maybe there are certain ingredients that are needed for it to succeed. But for now we are not
calling for more amalgamations until we understand what is going on. Thank you.
Ms R M M LESOMA: My apology, House Chair. I am in the next question. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But you are in my list, hon member. But it’s fine.
Question 303:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, Cabinet at its June 2019 deliberations endorsed the 25 Year Review Report as being a fair reflection of the achievements and challenges the democratic government and our have experienced since 1994. The departure point of the 25 Year Review Report is that the apartheid system subjected black people and black women in particular to enumerable forms of discrimination and bias. Rural people and youth were marginalised and women bore the brunt of poverty.
The 25 Year Review Report found that multi dimensional poverty measured in terms of composite indicators for health, education, standard of living and economic
activity has decreased. This is because government programmes over the past 25 years have protected millions of South Africans against the devastating impact of poverty through social grants and free basic services amongst others. However, when measured in terms of the financial dimensions, poverty levels have increased and remained inconsistent with government stated objectives. The face of poverty in South Africa is still black and female. This has remained one of the greatest development challenges in South Africa after 1994.
At the launch of the 25 Year Review Report on the 8th of November 2019, the President of our country accentuated the existed seamless connection between recommendations made in the 25 Year Review Report and the seven national government priorities for 2019-2024 as articulated earlier. These priorities are embodied and embedded in the Medium Term Strategic Framework for 2019-2024, which will inform the work of government and nongovernment actors alike for the five years.
Having provided political leadership and technical support for the production of both the 25 Year Review
Report and the Medium Term Strategic Framework for 2019- 2024, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation’s role is to ensure implementation of the latter by all key role players, state and non-state. This will be achieved through cascading the Medium Term Strategic Framework into the strategic and annual performance plans of government departments as well as social’s compacts with non-state actors to achieve the eradication of poverty, unemployment and inequality.
Thank you, Chair.
Mr M S MALATSI: Minister Mthembu, the fact that poverty levels remain as high as they currently are and that both inequality and poverty continue as they have been for the last few years is proof that the government’s economic policies are clearly failing. Will the presidency be courageous enough to adopt pro-growth policy in order to attract investment and provide support to small businesses so that you can optimise job creation and tackle inequality? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much hon ntate Malatsi, it was a bit premature, I was supposed to have called hon Malomane.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I respond?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, please.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: It will be very myopic to think that the discrimination of over three hundred years could be stopped within a 25 year period. Indeed, looking from where we were 25 years ago, we can without hesitation say that the lives of people have improved for the better. By the way in 1994, when we took over, there were only 8 million people employed in our country. How many people are employed today? Over 16 million. But again, black people like you Malatsi never even thought that they would even get into Parliament. So you must be thankful that through the work of the ANC you a sitting Member of Parliament. Again, women were nothing under apartheid. They were non people. They could not own anything.
Today, women are not only Members of Parliament and Ministers, but are owners of businesses in our country. Thank you very much for the 25 year achievements. Of course, we still need to do a lot to ensure that our economy work. We still need to do a lot. Our economy is not working as we would have thought. But how would it work when it excluded so many people 25 years ago. We are on track, we have a strategy that has come from the Minister of Finance to ensure that our economy works and we are on track. Thank you very much.
Ms V P MALOMANE: Sihlalo, siyabonga Ndvuna kutsi litiko liyachubeka liyasebenta.
English:
My follow up question is that, what are the findings of the 25 Year Review Report, in respect of the triple challenges like poverty, unemployment and inequality based on race ...
Siswati:
... ngicela ungive kahle Ndvuna,
English:
... based on race, class and gender? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Based on the statistic analysis used by the Department of Planning Monitoring and Evaluation, on the 25 year review as provided by Stats SA, the total population trapped ... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: Point of Order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chairperson, I would just like to know in terms of accountability, how can the Minister read a follow up question asked by an ANC member? Are you not holding the Ministers accountable?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, why do you want to disrupt the flow?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... perhaps, we need to deal with the facts and the figures, all of them. Let me start at the beginning hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, you may hon Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Based on statistics, nilalele [you should listen!] used by the Department of Monitoring on the 25 year review as provided by Stats SA in 2017, the total population trapped in lower-bound poverty in 2011, living on an income of R758 per person per month, 41,4% were black African women. By 2015, these figures had increased to 49,2%. In contrast, only 0,5% of those living within the lower-bound poverty line in 2011 were white males.
Furthermore, while lower-bound poverty levels for black African women deteriorated, levels for white males improved marginally from 0,5% in 2011 to 0,4% in 2015. The review also elucidated the fact that over the 25 years of democracy, the number of people employed has doubled from some 8,9 million in 1994, to 16,5 million in
2018. However, the country’s economy which recorded a pedestrian 2,8% GDP growth over the 25 years, did not create jobs at the rate required to absorb the existing army of unemployed and new entrants. Translating the numbers into rates, the 25 year review report found that the official unemployment rate reached an all time high of 36,4% in 1999, fell below 25% between 2006 and 2015, reached a figure of 21,5% in 2008, just as the global financial crisis hit ... [Time Expired.]
Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chair, having noted the pronouncement made by the Minister of Finance during the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, on cost- cutting measures, has the National Treasury issued any instructions in a form of the practice note or any other tool to effect the decision made and pronouncement made? Thank you, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The cost-cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please ...
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... you don’t want me to look down, ok. The cost-cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance are measures that all of us will be speaking to through our programmes in government.
Secondly, even as the President interacts with us and the signs performance agreements with all of us as the executive authorities, the issues of cost-cutting measures will be part of those agreements that we will sign. Equally, even the performance agreements that will be signed between the director-generals, DGs, and other low ranking officials will take into account the cost- cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Nk H O MKHALIPI: Nqgonqgoshe ake siyikhulume ngesiZulu lendaba ngoba manje uma siyikhuluma ngesiNgisi kukhona lapho silahlekelana khona. Sikhuluma ngodaba olubucayi kabi lokulwisana namathuba omsebenzi, ubuphuya nenhlupheko yabantu. Manje nina Ngqongqoshe nihlala
laphaya egunjini okubanjelwa kulo imihlangano nicabangele abantu abahluphekayo, nibhale nithi nalu ucwaningo.
Nibhekise izinto ocwaningweni enilwenzile.
English:
You must be practical.
IsiZulu:
Manje wena njengoNgqongqoshe obekade uthi ubandlululo luphelile. Nina njengohulumeni ka-ANC, uhulumeni wentando yeningi nenza izinto zenzeke. Laba bantu abahluphekayo ababhuqwa yindlala nsukuzonke, nina nishaywa umoya laphaya njengoNgqongqoshe beKhabinethi nenza kanjani ...
English:
... to address this thing because you must be worried instead of coming here and talk big English while our people are suffering.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela: Siyabonga mhlonishwa.
Nk H O MKHALIPI: Awume, abantu abakhe eFree State ...
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga mhlonishwa. Wena awuhlale phansi ubambe umthetho.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Let’s just start where you ended. If the ANC-led government was not a carrying government the President would not have said in the next five years he would like to have people coming into the country with investments worth R1,2 trillion, he would not have said that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order?
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngizwa nginokukhulu ukuphoxeka ngoba lana umhlonishwa wethu lana ukhulumela abantu abasemakhaya hhayi ngesiNgisi kodwa ngesiZulu. Bengicela aphendule ngesiZulu. Uyasazi isiZulu, hhayi indaba yokucasha ngesiNgisi. Uma bekhankasa, bakhankasa ngezilimi zomdabu. [Ihlombe.]
UNGQONGQOSHE EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: UMongameli wezwe
uthe ukuze silwisane nendlala silwisane nokuhlupheka uzokwenza konke okusemandleni wakhe ukuthi kube nabantu abafaka izimali ezweni. Izimali ezithi azifike kuR1,2 thriliyoni kuleminyaka emihlanu ezayo. Kulonyaka lo esikhuluma ngawo kulokhu uMongameli akukhulumile abantu abafake izimali sebafake izimali ezingamabhiliyoni angu363 ukuze abantu abantu bakithi bathole imisebenzi. [Ihlombe.]
Ngingasakhulumi ngalonyaka nje kuphela. Kulonyaka lo ophelile kwingqungquthela yokutshalwa kwezimali ebeyenzwe nguMongameli futhi, abantu abafaka izimali abakhona eNingizimu Afrika abavela ngaphandle bafake amabhiliyoni angama-300 ukuze kwakhiwe amathuba emisebenzi. [Ihlombe.] Ngakho ke siyabona ke ukuthi impela lohulumeni kakhongolose uzimisele ukwenza amathuba emisebenzi nokwenza ukuthi intsha yethu yaseNingizimu Afrika ithole imisebenzi ngenxa yalokutshalwa kwezimali okwenziwe ezweni. [Ihlombe.]
Nk M O MKHALIPI: Sihlalo, ... akube nokuthula! Njengoba uMongameli wakho exosha abasebenzi epulazini lakhe, uzobaqasha kanjani abantu ezweni?
English:
Cover that one.
IsiZulu:
Uxosha abasebenzi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, I did not even recognise you. Hon members, can I get your attention please? I really need special tranquility for this. Yes, special tranquility! The time allocated for questions has expired, outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard. That concludes the business of the day.
The House adjourned at 18:27.
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