Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 20 Nov 2019


No summary available.





Watch video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJPII-CSNzo



The House met at 15:01.


The House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Please take up your allocated seats so that we can start the session. Hon members, the first item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster 2, Social Services.


Members may press the talk button on the desk if they wish to ask a supplementary question. I wish to remind the hon members that the names of members requesting supplementary questions will be cleared as soon as the member of the executive starts answering the fourth supplementary question.


The first question has been asked by the hon B B Nodada to the Minister of Higher Education Science and Technology. I have been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister.







(Subject for Discussion)



Question 256:




Hon House Chairperson, the National Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, has not made any payment to the VBS Mutual Bank either for the purpose of disbursing allowances for technical, vocational and training colleges, or any other transaction.



VBS was initially awarded a contract together with other commercial banks to disburse allowances to students. However, this award and contract was subsequently terminated before any transaction or transfer of funds occurred after VBS was placed under curatorship. Secondly, no students were affected as NSFAS made no payment through VBS.



Mr B B NODADA: Chairperson, according to note 30 of the Auditor- General’s Report, NSFAS has lost R5,3 million to asset managers, who wrongfully invested and subsequently awarded tenders to disburse allowances to the VBS defunct bank. I can share the report with you Deputy Minister if you haven’t seen it. It further indicated that there is a rolling irregular expenditure of

R7,5 billion, with no consequences for who mismanaged that particular type of money.



Lastly, workers at the NSFAS are defrauding the system because of the poor ICT system. Based on the continuous crisis at NSFAS, would you commit to this House that NSFAS will be completely overhauled by the Ministry with specific plans of ensuring consequence management and that students receive their allowances on time in the 2020 registration period for universities and TVET colleges students moving. If not, why not? Thank you so much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Before the hon Deputy Minister responds, I wish to remind hon members of the rule in terms of follow up questions, that only one follow up question is being allowed.





Firstly, I must indicate that the hon member must not create an impression that the monies that he is indicating were in relation to the question that he has asked. The hon member asked a question relating to VBS and I think we have adequately responded to that question.



In relation to newspaper reports around mismanagement of funds at the NSFAS and all of that, the administrator has indicated that various state institutions are making investigations on employees and non-employees of NSFAS who were implicated in wrong doing in that regard.



Finally, the Minister is considering the terms of reference and also the names of people to serve in the ministerial panel for the review of the NSFAS. So that all these issues around governance, maladministration - but also the general operations of NSFAS can and be averted into the future.



I must ascertain South Africans particularly students that since the appointment of the administrator, the ship has been sailing quite peacefully. That is why many, if not all of our



institutions, have been running as smoothly as they have been. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, Deputy Minister, I am glad that you are mention the word National Review Plan. In terms of NSFAS there is an added problem right now. You are now giving these monies directly to the students which I have alluded to yesterday. A great percentage of that money is not going towards education anymore and I think there has been a report on the sale of textbooks which has dropped by 60 to 80%.



In part of this review plan, will you consider relooking at whether an amount should be given directly to students or put in measures to ensure there is greater control over it?





House Chairperson, firstly, the information that member relies on is information that mainly comes from the publishers. There has also been innuendos and anecdotes that people have been throwing around without any substantial evidence to suggest that the allowances that we give directly to students on a monthly basis is going into education. This is akin to the anecdotes that have been made for instance, as it is raised to South African Social



Security Agency, Sassa, payment grants. As is the case now, there is not evidence that the money that has been given to students is going to everything other than education.



However, we are prepared to the results because that is what we are very much interested in. We know that the student leadership, the university and TVET colleges management have committed to work together with us in ensuring that we improve the results of students particularly those who are receiving bursaries. I must also indicate that in the past there have been various ways and means within which students – even though there were given vouchers or as bucks and all of that, they always found a way to manipulate and defraud the system. We are obviously also open to whatever suggestions which may come up which will lead to student using whatever monies for education purposes. Thank you.



Mr N M PAULSEN: House Chair, Deputy Minister, I am glad that you are open to suggestions as you have just alluded to. Given the huge reserves that the government has and its variety of social responsibility which includes the disbursements of NSFAS grants and as you have mentioned SASSA grants, which attract transactions and service fees.



Would it not strengthen the argument for the state-owned bank that would take the responsibility of disbursing these funds to its beneficiaries and it would save the state money. Also we can assure that we can hold that state bank accountable because government would control that bank? Thank you very much, Chairperson.





think the debate around the state-owned bank is a debate that is out there which in those platforms, I am willing to engage with he hon member on. But as it relates to this, our responsibility is to disburse money to students efficiently, on time and without any of the stresses. I believe that the current interventions that we have made through the NSFAS have been working perfectly well.

Thank you.



Mr W M THRING: Chair, our students at higher learning institutions across the country need all the help they can get to obtain their desired qualification. This requires the efficient use of education budget allocations. With allegations of political parties and its members having benefited from the looting of taxpayers’ money and the investments of poor people at VBS Mutual Bank, what measures are in place to ensure that students



disbursements to financial institutions are in line with the Public Financial Management Act, PFMA, and directors from National Treasurer, to prevent any future loses to these students via the disbursements. Thank you.





Hon member, as I indicated, maybe you may have come in later than the response. It happens to all of us, the best of. Just to repeat that we haven’t lost any money to VBS. No student has lost any money. The extent within which the NSFAS process is full proof is shown by the fact that we haven’t. There are students – and we will talk to that later on. There are some students who have not received their allocations for instance precisely because some of them have not signed any bursary agreement with NSFAS because ultimately that is what will guarantee every student from receiving any money. But we have in place measures which will guarantee that they are no lossess. We are also taking action as you may have read else where in the media against those who were implicated in wrong doing in the past at NSFAS.



Question 272:


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, in relation to advocacy on the Comprehensive Sexuality Education, indeed we have an extensive



consultative process. Personally, I have been on road shows, accompanied by SA National Aids Council, SANAC, ambassadors for early unplanned pregnancies, faith based organisations, but we have also used our website and all sorts of platforms to communicate and educate people on this programme, especially in the face of the onslaught we have been getting, in the main, from your religious groupings. The answer is that, indeed, we even have ambassadors of young people who have joined us on this programme. We have young girls who fell pregnant before time to talk about the challenges of pregnancy. So, the answer is yes, we have an advocacy plan.



Ms N F SHABALALA: Through you Chair, Minister, I have just heard, but there is a clarity that I need to know especially because in the past, we used to be taught the anatomy of the body. What is the difference now? The Comprehensive Sexuality Education, CSE, Grade 4 will be taught about masturbation. Is that true?



On the teaching of United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO, 17, General Secondary Education, GSE, it says that the CSE will be using pornography images. Is that true, Minister? Can you clarify please?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Before I ask the minister to respond, may I appeal for silence on both sides of the House, so that we can engage the Minister on this important question? You can respond hon Minister.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair I have advised members that we have placed the lesson plans on the website which has helps out to clear all the lies and the untruths which have been used about the campaign, distortions about images which are truly not images which are in the system. Fortunately, because of that we’ve even been getting some feedback. MmaShabalala, I can just read you few lines of parents who have read the website.



One parent said, “I’ve just finished reading the Grade R to 5 Workbooks.” She continues to say, “wow, I’m impressed. There’s nothing offensive of age inappropriate; there’s no sexual grooming; no sexuality; no bullying and there’s also HIV and Aids education.” These are all the things that happens everyday, and it’s time that we address and give names to these things, so that we don’t call bums sitting things, but bums. That’s what sexuality education is about.



We don’t call hands holding things. We have to call things by their names, so that we educate our children appropriately. So, there is nothing inappropriate about the plan. Parents are supporting us and we are on road shows with different members. There is nothing offensive about the plan, unless you want to call bums sitting things and hands holding things.



Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Hon Minister, the parents and communities advocates for their own children’s needs, vis-à-vis curriculum related matters, inclusive of Comprehensive Sexuality Education. My question is, is there any scientifically evidence to prove that validates the information of the gathered data of the involvement of the vulnerable black communities in decision-making regarding the contents of the proposed Comprehensive Sexuality Education?

Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: There is adequate information that says, if you teach children sexual education, you are able to educate them about sexuality, not sexualise them. Member, for instance, when we ask young people about how their pregnancy came, their answer is, “we didn’t know it.”



So, there is enough evidence internationally, and we are working with experts. That’s why we have SANAC and different groups which help us in terms of saying, what are the facts that we need to deal with concerning HIV/Aids, because the fact is, indeed, we are confronting a major problems. If I can inform you, we have almost

200 infections per day of young people. So, we have to talk about these things.



In 2017, we had almost 19,000 young girls falling pregnant. We have to talk about these things in order to save our children. So, we have statistics which says we have to do it. It’s not a choice, we have to do it. Our children need this sex education to be sexually aware so that, when an uncle touches them in a wrong part, they don’t keep quiet. They will understand that it’s an inappropriate touching.



So, we are not that evil, member, which we would teach young people things that would not be of value to them. But we have to confront the huge crisis about the HIV/Aids, huge crisis about unintended early pregnancies, we have huge problem about child molestation and these, we have to confront. This is one of the weapons to confront some of these problems facing us. Thank you, ma’am.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, don’t you think, given the major outcry from the communities, there need to be further consultation and engagement before you take a decision as big as this to go and introduce it into the schools at this stage, together with the fact that there is no information provided that you have engaged with the different departments like Social Development, Health, etc, before you took a decision to want to implement this?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, we engage with parents through School Governing Bodies, SGBs, we don’t go to individual parents. As I’ve said, I’ve just read you the message from one of the real parents, not the retired ones. This was the parent of a Grade 4 learner who wrote me a letter and said that the lesson plans which we have published on our website are wow. So, those are the parents are the parents we are consulting, the parents of children whom we have consulted through SGBs ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: ... and we are on road shows with, as I said, different groups. So, if Mr Emam wants us to visit his area, we will definitely come with the whole team that is working with us on this matter. We are open and free because we



think it is important. We would also like to educate him so that we can also be the ambassadors of this good programme.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members. I want the Minister to hear the follow-up question.



Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chair, South Africa is a participatory democracy and hence members of the public have a constitutional right to air their views about decisions made by this House or any other committee. A number of organisations and NGOs still maintain that the department did not consult them regarding the contents of Comprehensive Sexuality Education curriculum.



For example, two weeks ago, Mr Matekane Matekane, the National Secretary-General of School Governing Bodies, after he had appeared of a number of media platforms, he informed the public, including us that, School Governing Bodies have not been consulted about the contents of CSEs. So, I want to know, which governing bodies does the Minister talk about when the National Secretary- General says they don’t know anything about?



I also want to know whether the Minister is willing to go to areas where they say that they have never heard about this before, including in the rural areas? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, as I indicated that ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: ... indeed, we respect the rights of parents and of teachers in particular, in the decision of any content that we teach, and the fact that different communities have raised problems, that’s why we went to them. For the first time we never asked parents which maths or physical science to teach. But in this instance, they have raised concerns.



Hence we have posted our material on our website to make sure that they satisfy themselves. Reverend, I would really appreciate if you can invite me to Volsloorus because that’s what we have been doing. I have a team of priests. Therefore, we can call people and talk about sex.






Ha ke re ho itswe batho ba tswale, ba ate. Ba tla ata jwang ha re sa bue hore ba ata jwang, le hore ha ba etse eng? Ke molao wa Bibele oo re o etsang hore batho ba tswale, ba ate; mme re tshwanela ho ba tataisa hore ke eng e sa etsweng.





So, if you invite me, I will gladly come because I have been on road shows to deal with these concerns because we want your support. Therefore, I can come to Volsloorus where you have a big church.





Ke kopa ho tla mme ke tla tla le sehlopha kaofela...





... including the other priests who agree with us, so that we can have difference between the left and right priests.



Question 273:




Chair, I’d like to address myself to hon Mashego and he asked what steps has the department taken to utilise the intergovernmental



relations framework more effectively to ensure that municipalities plan and implement the informal settlements upgrading programme.



My answer is that Act 13 part 2 that he refers to specifically indicates that we can have as independent national departments Intergovernmental relations, IGR, forums. In this case I as Minister of Human Settlements have established an intergovernmental forum called MinMAC and we meet very regularly in this particular forum and this is where we discuss all our plans including informal settlements upgrading.



This particular forum is therefore able to ensure that in their provinces we have the targeted upgrading systems in place and also ensure that the municipalities follow suite.



I have a table ere that indicates the performance in respect of informal settlements upgrading for the financial year 2018/19 and I don’t know if Hon Mashego would like me to read this or whether I can perhaps hand it over to him.



Chairperson, I have the document and I don’t know if Hon Mashego would like me to read it or perhaps I can give it to him?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon Minister I think you must forward it to the member and will also be published in terms of the questions that are being answered in the House. Is there a follow up question from the hon Mashego?



Mr M R MASHEGO: Yes, Chair there is. Minister, having listened to the response, one of the challenges I highlighted by the Department of Planning and Monitoring in our engagement with them is on the evaluation of the work of the Department of Human Settlements.



What plans does the department have in place to ensure that the informal settlement upgrading as you have just spoken to, is really accelerated and implemented through community based participants because the outcry by communities is that this commitment you are making of late is not known to them. They are not part and parcel of the process.



What is the plan in making them participate and be part of the issues especially in the budgetary review and recommendation report, BRR we raised the issue that our communities seem to be very afar from what you are doing and the plan is not necessarily



talking to them being part of the process? I will appreciate that document that you were just talking about.





Mashego I’m not aware of the fact that our communities are not informed about what plans we have for them because this is part of the responsibility of every provincial Department of Human Settlements.



However, we will follow this up and make sure that it is known so that our communities are part and parcel of the work we are doing. May I continue to the second part of the question?



Hon Mashego wants to know and I think it is tied to what he is talking about here. What we are doing in ensuring that the housing code is changed into human settlements code. I need to say to hon Mashego right from the onset that yes, we are behind in changing the housing code into the human settlements code precisely because of the enormity of the responsibility that comes before we get to the code.



In the first place we have to enact legislation, the changes from Housing Act into the Human Settlements Act. The concept of human



settlements came into this country around 2005 and only came into effect gazetted by the Presidency in 2009. Various periods, in which various Ministers have been at this department, attempts have been made to get the legislation put in place but there have been so many interruptions.



However, there is a process in place that is going to enable us to ensure that we can fast track the legislation. After the legislation has been fast tracked and has been passed then the code will kick in.



The reason why the hon member is asking about the housing code is that deals directly with the issue of municipalities and how municipalities will constantly ensure that in partnership with the municipal budget is attending to this particular problem.



Ms E L POWELL: Hon Mister in the past financial year the City of Cape Town has ensured that it spends 89% of all capital budgets allocated for the informal settlements upgrading programme and 94% of the capital budget for the greater human settlements department which include public housing and housing development.



The City of Cape Town also spent 96% of the urban settlements development grant which is used in Metropolitan Municipalities to upgrade informal settlements.



How does this expenditure compare to other Metropolitan Municipalities across the country and what is the Minister doing to improve spend in other Metropolitan Municipalities?





member has been primed to ask this question by the Member of the Executive Council, MEC. There is no doubt in my mind about that because at the last MinMAC we had, one of the provinces that has done well is the Western Cape so I think he wanted to show off that they have done well. But, I’ll tell you they have done well. I’ll tell you why they have done well. [Applause.]



They have done well because two thirds of the projects that are here in the Western Cape are national projects. [Applause.] One of them is I was here and the biggest one here is the N2 that is what accounts for the success that we are talking about. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank hon Minister. Order hon members! Order! Order now, settle down. Hon members although I know you can get excited by certain responses, whistling in the House is not allowed. If you do so I’ll ask you to leave the House. The next follow up question is to be asked by the hon Arries.



Ms L H ARRIES: Hon Minister, the informal settlement grant programme is failing dismally in almost all the municipalities. There was a list of informal settlements that were to be upgraded by the department. The department targets 500 plan but only 391 were completed. Why can’t the department avail service stands to people in informal settlements so that people can build their homes for themselves?





member, yes, that’s a very valid question. That is the way we going now to ensure that we are able to fast track the upgrading of informal settlements.



We are now the recipients of land that has been appropriated and in some cases expropriated and we intend to use this land by giving to individuals whom we can assist to build houses on.



However, the statistics that you have will be greatly altered by the fact that I have updated statistics here which I’ll be able to give you. But, that is not withstanding the fact that yes, we are behind in our informal settlement upgrade.





Mnu X NGWEZI: Sihlalo, Xhamela, ngicela ukwazi ukuthi uma kuqala lezi zinhlelo ngakube ezindaweni lezi othola ukuthi zakhelene namadolobha noma kumbe amalokishi noma izindawo othola ukuthi kukhona okwakhiwayo mhlawumbe kwakhiwa izimayini kodwa lezo zindawo ezingaphans kwamakhosi ngoba nakhona sekuqalile nakhona ukuthi kube nemikhukhu, ngakuba amakhosi nabantu nje abahlala kulezo zindawo nobuholi bomdabu niyaxoxisana yini nabo kulezo zindawo? Ngiyathokoza kakhulu.





very much, hon Ngwezi ...





 ... ngingathokoza zakwethu Ngwezi ... [Ubuwelewele.] umangabe ungasisiza ukuthi sihlangane namakhosi siyikhulume lento. Sithi uma siyikhuluma lento bese sifake nale yamatayitela kulo mhlaba okungowamakhosi. Kuningi esifuna ukukukhuluma namakhosi. Kodwa-ke



lokhu okhuluma ngakho, lokhu kwemikhukhu kule mihlaba yamakhosi yinto nathi esesiyibhekile ukuthi izosixaka.



Yikho lokho ngikubiza uzakwethu ngoba ngiyakubona ukuthi umqondo wakho uhamba kahle, uhamba ngale ndlela le efanele ... [Ubuwelewele.] uyayazi into ekufanele siyenze. Ngizozwa ngawe-ke uma usuhlangene namakhosi. Ngime ngomumo uma ungasisiza.



Question 251:


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Chair. The question is about whether we are going to make changes to the curriculum. Member Marchesi, just for the record, technically there’s nothing called the curriculum for comprehensive sex education. We only have one curriculum which is the 2012 Curriculum Assessment Policy Statements, CAPS. Then it has your promotion requirements, your progression requirements and assessment requirements.



So, what we have under the topics and the content of curriculum sex education is contained in your Life Orientation. What we are doing is strengthening what was already approved in 2012. Right? So, we are strengthening it with the lesson plans that we have brought here. So there is nothing like a curriculum.



However, I think if we have to make any amendments to the curriculum we will follow the normal framework policies on how to deal with curriculum ... So, moruti [priest], as you said ... consultative, but there is a framework around which you can make changes, and we’ll use the changes.



However, what is also important is the fact that what we have, which is causing the hysteria, are lesson plans that we are piloting in the 1 500 schools with the intention of getting feedback from communities, especially your educators and parents, with the intention of rolling it out in 2021. So, moruti [priest], you still have time to invite me to your church ...





... re bue ka taba e.





Ms N T TARABELLA MARCHESI: Minister, given the fact that each and every school has its own challenges ... like you have schools with multigrade classes; you have schools whereby ... as you said, you know, there’s a very high failure rate within different grades which means that in a classroom you’ll have learners of different age groups. The fact that you have challenges with regard to



classrooms and also of teachers that are currently not adequately trained to provide Comprehensive Sexuality Education, CSE, what is it that you are going to do to ensure that, like you know ... if there is a school that decides to opt out because of the different challenges that they have ... to actually say, can we opt of the curriculum and come up with a curriculum that we can decide on as the school governing body, SGB, the parents, but within the CAPS framework?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Member, the purpose of the pilot is to guide us on some of the issues that you are raising. You are quite right that the issues are not only around content but it’s also about process, and how, when we pilot it in classrooms, we learn how to deal with certain situations, like your multigrade, your ... [Inaudible.] ... and all sorts of things. That is what the pilot is going to guide us on, so that when we roll out in 2021 we have a clear sense of what is on the ground. We can make assumptions but I think the pilots will help us with facts in terms of what the reality is and how to handle different topics.

So, let’s look at the pilot. We’ll give you the results. It will inform us on how to handle it. Thank you.



Ms M E SUKERS: Hon Minister, the content received from the department by the portfolio committee on education differs from what is loaded on the website. What amendments were made to the uploaded content on CSE by the department in the last week and who did the department consult with regard to those amendments?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, it’s unfortunate that there’s an assumption of dishonesty on our part, and I think I have to clarify that. We have no reason to be changing what ... unless you really assume that we are very dishonest.



What we have put on the website is what is already in schools. It’s unfortunate that this campaign is led by religious groups, using lies and distortions, which is very unfortunate. It’s fine for them to raise their concerns but let them do it on the back of truths. So, all the things that they’ve been putting on the website, we’ve ... I don’t even know where they come from. I’ve been asking where these images are from. They are definitely not from our material.



So, just assume that we are as honest as you are. We are not liars. You are assuming that we are lying ... we’ve changed the material in order to impress. Why should we do that? We are



piloting this material to get feedback. Right? Give us feedback on the basis of what we have officially uploaded, not what these groups are uploading, and the lies and dishonesty. It’s unfortunate that the campaign is led by churches and it’s quite sad that they are leading it on the basis of untruths.



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Minister, thank you very much for uploading the scripted lesson plans on the website. We’ve asked for that for quite a long time and I think it must have been available.

However, what I would like to ask you is with regard to the ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! Hon members, the hon member is asking a question for the Minister to reply to. If you make a noise behind her she won’t be in a position to properly reply to that member. Let’s give her a fair opportunity please.



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Minister, in the written question that you answered, I wanted to know whether it will be implemented. Or, can you guarantee that it will not be implemented in January 2020?

Your answer was a little bit wide, in saying that the department



envisages that it will be fully implemented by 2021. Can you give us more clarity about what exactly the plans are for 2020?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the plan is ... These are pilots in 1 500 schools. We are piloting in 2020 in order to be able to get all the necessary ... That’s how we run pilot curriculum innovations in the department, with the intention that after receiving feedback from the pilot we will fully roll out in 2021.



So, 2020 is to get all the concerns, and then you can tell me how to call ... other names ... that we should not call things by name. So, I’m waiting for 2020 for that. Then we can fully roll out in 2021.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you Chair. Minister, I’ve had the opportunity to visit many of your schools on oversight, and I’m not sure if you have. What we’ve identified in a lot of schools, particularly in the Eastern Cape ... the poor quality of education there.



Now, my question is, did you ensure or what are you going to do to ensure that the educators in those schools have the capacity to



deal with a matter as sensitive as this, particularly in the rural areas?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: ... because your assumption is that rural people just don’t have brains. But, leave that alone

... that ... your assumptions about rural communities.



The pilot is supposed to inform us about all the necessary things that we need to know, including whether teachers are unable to handle certain topics. That’s what the pilot is meant for. We will roll out after we have been sensitised on some of the issues about rural and urban communities, because I don’t know what it is about rural ... which is uninformed or not very intelligent.



Mr S N SWART: House Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, why are you rising, hon member?



Mr S N SWART: I rise on a point of order ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?



Mr S N SWART: ... Rule 85, and I’m just asking you to check the Hansard. My colleagues seem to have heard that the Minister said that the person putting the question, Ms Sukers, is dishonest, and I’d ask you just to check the Hansard in that regard.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’ll check the Hansard and come back to the House if necessary.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you.



Question 262:




very much, Chairperson. The question asks about what am I going to do to intervene to ensure that the community of Tseki in Maluti-A- Phofung Local Municipality in the Thabo Mofutsanyane District get reliable water supply. My job is specifically worked out in law as making sure that the country’s water resources are protected, managed, used, developed, conserved and controlled in a sustainable way to benefit all our people. I am very conscious of the fact that we do not all have equal access to water which is a right. Therefore, I had indicated in my Budget Vote that one of the things I wanted to do is to get a legislation that will transform access to water.



However, in terms of the Water Services Act of 1997, it prescribes that the municipality itself has a responsibility to ensure that it provides water to that particular municipality that it is responsible for. From time to time municipalities are not able to do this for several reasons either they do not have the capacity, they are dealing with aging infrastructure or perhaps they are dealing with the current drought that we are experiencing.



What I am going to do is to make sure that I deal with this matter by going to Mofutsanyane with the member who has asked this question. But I want you to know that for this particular area we have already given R50 million to the regional bulk infrastructure to make sure that the area within which Qwaqwa is located is equipped with making sure that it can test the yield of the resources that have been given to them. This money had been used in the past to make sure that boreholes are dug and make sure that out of these boreholes we are able to purify water and make sure that everybody is connected to this. In the meantime however we are very conscious of the fact that most of our communities are suffering the effects of drought which started in 2017, and we are dealing with these on a case by case basis. We would like you as a Member of Parliament to join us in making sure that we are able to provide this to the people of Qwaqwa. Thank you very much.



Ms S M MOKGOTHO: Thank you, Chair. Minister, when you go to Tseki which is situated in Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality, people there get water on a fortnight basis. My question is, is the department going to continue with applying tankering water to communities as a crisis measure which is already expensive in a country facing water crisis or is the department applying itself to the application of new innovative measures to ensure sustainable and effective water service provision?





you. This question is very important. On 26 this month, we intend to put before the country our master plan for water to ensure that the country understand what it is that we are doing about changing the way we do things in making sure that we are dealing with the drought.



One of the things we intend to do in that particular forum of unfolding the master plan is to provide the country with alternative methods of getting water. We have, through our water research council, been able to discover that we can get water from sand. We have also been able to discover that we can get water from the atmosphere in areas where this is possible. And we will be testing that and on 26. We will be putting it out for the



country to see whether it is working or not. We are looking at alternative technologies.



The issue of tankering is an issue that I must discuss through the Minister of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta with the municipalities. If indeed, as you say that they only get water in a fortnight this is completely inadequate and completely against what the Constitution requires of us to do. We are going to attend to that.



MR L J BASSON: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, all over the country people are struggling and are without water not just because of draught, but because of infrastructure failure and dysfunctional municipalities. What are you going to do to stop this, to turn this around so that we can deliver water to the people of South Africa?





that our people are suffering from lack of water because of an aging infrastructure is something that we all know. We are trying to invest in upgrading our infrastructure and making sure that we get water to everybody. We are trying to find ways of overcoming some of the obstacles that you are mentioning. We are meeting



various stakeholders to explain to them what we are doing. We have met with AgriSA asking them to come onboard and make sure that within the skills sector that they have they are able to assist us. But we stand ready to go out to our communities and make sure that all of them get water. That is our commitment, that is what we have been working on and that is what we continue working on it. Thank you.



Ms G K TSEKE: Thanks very much, House Chair. Minister, due to the fact that Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality has been under tremendous pressure of water shortages due to drought and other factors that you have just highlighted, has the department undertaken to prioritise civic education and awareness programmes for the community in the above mentioned municipality to conserve and protect the limited water resources? If so, what have been some of the programmes the department has undertaken in this regard? Thank you.





the technical Minmec consisting of Cogta, Agriculture and ourselves will be meeting to discuss the situation that we are finding ourselves in, and possibly recommend to us whether or not we should declare a drought in which it will be possible for us to



go beyond the boundaries of the law and regulations to get water to the people that are in need right now. But that will only be made known to us after the technical Minmec has met tomorrow. The three Ministers and I will call a press conference and explain what the outcome of that decision is.



In the meantime we have indeed gone out of our way to make sure that we educate our people about the scarcity of water and how they can conserve water. I spent the whole day in Johannesburg at Rand Water with all the media that we could get together to send the simple message that we are a water-scarce country, we are the thirtieth driest country in the world and matters are not getting better for us. We don’t have the necessary technology in abundance to be able to harvest water from everywhere that we should.

Therefore, for the time being until we find all the solutions that we are going to put out in the master plan, we are asking people to use their water sparingly. That was all over the radio and television on the day on which we called the press conference.

Thank you.



Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Hon Minister, the issue of shortage of water requires intervention all over the country. The biggest problem is that seemingly there are no urgent



interventions available when areas are identifies as needing it. People then resort to providing water through water tankers. Water tankers cannot be a sustainable intervention. The question is, what are other urgent interventions that can be identified to address this? Also to look at issues of corruption because if we don’t deal with officials or politicians who have been found with corruptive practices, we are not going to deal with this. In uThukela, for example, the department funded the uThukela district with more than R20 million and that dam is still seated there unmaintained.





Chair, I would like you to protect me from questions that are not on the paper being asked by hon Waters.



Yes, we do know that there is drought coming, but there is legislation. [Interjections. There is same difference. But there are processes that need to be followed. The Minister of Cogta, in consultation with me and the Minister of Agriculture will be meeting and together we have the authority to declare a drought when that is recommended to us and we would have followed all the legal steps that are necessary.



Yes, we are suffering a great deal of shortages everywhere in the country and we are very concerned about this and we have been going all out to make sure that we can give the necessary assistance. I do not hon Ngwezi that there is a great deal of corruption in this environment. This is something that we have been dealing with. [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Comrade Ngwezi!





Ngwezi! Ngwezi! Ngwezi! Ngwezi! Zakwethu ngingalilibala kanjani igama lakho. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.] Cha, ngizokhuluma ngesiZulu.





There is a lot of corruption in the way that the responsibility of water is cascaded to the lowest level. I explained to you the last time I was here that one of the first things I did when I became Minister of Water was to go to KwaZulu-Natal and I experienced first hand what the problem is. We are working on that trying to make sure that whenever it is possible the Minister will intervention, whenever it is possible the Mec will intervene.



But the structure of government as it stands now requires certain ways in which we are able to intervene and give the necessary support. The level of corruption is greater at the level of municipalities which falls completely outside of the scope of the Minister of Water and Sanitation. But as I have indicated we do have regular meetings with the Minister and we are dealing with this matter and we have suggested that perhaps there should be an anticorruption Bill that deals specifically with the levels of corruption that we are experiencing that impact very negatively on our people, the poorest of the poor. Thank you.



Question 274:


The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, the Department of Sports, Arts and culture and the Department of Trade and Industry have ongoing engagements of the Bill.



In April 2018 the two departments met to discuss the Bill and the ratification of the World Intellectual Property Organization, WIPO, treaties: the WIPO copyright treaty, WIPO performances and phonograms treaty, Beijing treaty and audio-visual performances, and Marrakesh treaty.



In 2018 the two departments participated and made inputs to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry during the development of the Bills.



In 2019 the two departments again held a joint consultative workshop with the Ministers and the creative industry to address concerns raised by the creative industry on the Bill after it was passed in Parliament by the NA and the NCOP.



The departments met in November 2019 to discuss future of the Bills and issues of constitutionality. As we speak now, the Bills are with the legal teams of both departments so that the President is given proper counsel. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr A M SEABI: Minister, having answered in that manner my follow up question would be that: Because the buyers, it’s towards the supply side of creation and production rather than the demand side of distribution of content and market reach, in your view how will these two Bills address the dichotomy that exist, in that the majority of employees are black with a percentage of black managers but almost zero percentage of levels of black ownership? Thanks.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, the two Bills are very fundamental in that they go deeper into the transformation of the industry itself to ensure that both the level of royalties and ownership are addressed. But it also protects performers and creatives, particularly on those contractual obligations they find themselves logged in, which force them to die as paupers and die not owning their own intellectual properties, ips, at it were. So, it goes as deep as that. Thank you. [Applause.]





Mnu K P SITHOLE: Ngiyabonga kakhulu mhlonishwa Sihlalo nomhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, engicela ukukubuza ukuthi njengoba umthetho kusaxoxwa ngawo njengamanje, zikhona yini ezinye izindlela uMnyango onazo zokuthi uncede noma uvikele abantu bakithi abashona bangenalutho ngenxa yokuthi imiculo yabo iphelela isigangeni nanokuthi laba ababakhiqizayo ababaphathi ngendlela efanelekileyo?





Cha, ayikho indlela engasizekela ngayo ngoba thina njengabashayimthetho sihleli lapha, eyona nto esinayo ukushaya umthetho. Ngakho ke le Mithetho ishayiwe yadlula kuzozombili



iziNdlu zesiShayamthetho njengoba iphambi kukaMongameli manje. Silindele ke ukuthi uma uhlelo lolu seluqediwe lokuthi uMongameli esethole ukuthi elulekwe ngakwezomthetho ukuthi uma ewusayinda lo mthetho awuzukufaka yini enkingeni uhulumeni ngokoMthethosisekelo.



Engingakusho nje okuyikona okuyinkinga kakhulu ngaleMithetho yomibili ukuthi imboni yona qobo lwayo ihlukene phakathi. Abanye bathi awusayinwe lo Mthetho, abanye bathi awungasayinwa. Kodwa ke sithi kuyona imboni sebeyomukela lokho okuyokwenziwa nguMongameli esiyokubona ukuthi kubalulekile ukuthi kwenzeke, nanokuthi kuhamba kahle ekutheni awusayine noma angawusayini. Sebeyokumukela lokho. Ngiyabonga.





Mr B S MADLINGOZI: House Chair, when it was established that copyright-based industries contribute more than 11% of the country’s Gross Domestic Product, GDP, by Judge Ian Farlam through Copyright Review Commission.



Artists are still dying poor. Why are you still negotiating the robbery done to South African artists, Mr Minister, instead of protecting them? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, well, this is the kind of example I’m referring to or I referred to earlier on. Some talk passionately as he’s talking about the signing of the Bill and others have a different view on that. So, you just have to follow [Interjections.] you must listen ... you just have to follow the process to the latter, there’s no shortcut on this matter. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr W M THRING: Hon Minister, there has been huge debate in the media over the Copyright Amendment Bill insofar as the fair use system is concerned. Opponents of the Copyright Amendment Bill have said the fair use provisions ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, would you just take your seat please, in front of the member asking the question. [Interjections.]



Hon members, really, really, we must respect the rules and the protocols of the House; it’s unacceptable what you’re doing.



Please start afresh, hon member.



Mr W M THRING: Hon Minister, there has been huge – as I have said


- debate in the media over the Copyright Amendment Bill insofar as the fair use system contained in Bill is concerned.



Opponents to the Copyright Amendment Bill have said that the fair use provisions will be extremely catastrophic for the authors and publishers in South Africa and that foreign investors will no longer invest in the country’s creative industries.



Could the hon Minister elaborate by telling us which Acts are permitted under the fair use system and can the Minister also ensure, particularly the authors and the copyright industry, that these fair use acts will not infringe on the intellectual property rights and the potential income of authors and publishers in South Africa? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon member and thanks for your question. It’s not only the fair use which is being raised. There are a number of issues with the Copyright Amendment Bill which are being raised and one of them is on the exceptions, and they argue on that level that their work, they are not going to be able to exploit their work to the fullest if the category of exceptions is what it is now.



I do not want to make any indication here because on the other hand, the performers, what the Bill seeks to do is to protect them on these contractual obligations they are locked into. But those who own the content, particularly, are opposed to that and we have our views, we have put the thing that government can no longer continue to bear the brunt of performers and creatives dying paupers when it can intervene but not everybody agrees with that. All I can say here is that there are issues, pros and cons from both sides but finally we will decide; and whichever way we would have decided and everybody would have to accept that. Thank you



Question 275:


The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon House Chairperson, the case for Moral Regeneration Movement, MRM, is sound and nobody would be opposed to that given the lingering effects of colonial and apartheid misrule characterised largely by violence and scant regard for fundamental human rights.



In this regard, we are indebted to the vision and foresight of the late President Mandela, that parallel to the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, which focus mainly on government’s efforts towards the improvement of material conditions of our people, that there be an RDP of the soul as well which will focus



on spiritual needs of society and cultivate a collective sense of consciousness and corresponding obligations in safeguarding one another’s welfare as opposed to simply just safeguarding our own.



A lot of work, through the Moral Regeneration Movement itself — a civil society-led organisation supported by government, is happening. One of the biggest constraints for the MRM has been the inadequacy of funding and general lack of capacity in meeting its strategic goals.



Granted the tough fiscal environment, recourse allocation to this important area of work will never be enough. There are a lot of activities which moral regeneration, together with government under the leadership of the patron of the MRM, the Deputy President, have been involved in.



One of those was the launch of the anti-femicide campaign in 2017. There are many other areas that moral regeneration is looking into, including availing the Charter of Positive Values to society. If we are to deal with the social ills, there has to be a thorough engagement with society, particularly in conscientising our society about our moral obligations. Thank you very much.



Ms B N DLULANE: Hon Chairperson, to the hon Minister, noting that the Moral Regeneration Movement consultative conference emerged with a firm programme of action that will be tested by a national task team. Evidence and results are important in developing and testing a policy or a programme. What indicators will be used to assess the impact of this programme of action? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, it is a very important programme of action because it won’t succeed without everybody playing a role. Part of the problem with the social ills we are faced with in our country is the threat of violence running through.



Whether it is femicide you will find violence there. Whether you are talking about people with albinism being hunted down and killed because of all the myths, violence is there. Whether you are talking about old ladies who are said to be witches, all of that have to do with the scourge of violence in our country.



So, if we are to address the root causes of all the social ills and intolerances in our country, we have to ensure that we strengthen partnerships but we also focus on these programmes as a



property of all in our society and not one sector, which is government. Thank you very much.



Ms H JORDAAN: House Chair, to the Minister, is the department aware of allegations of racism by the president of Netball SA against white players? If so, is there an investigation and by when can we expect an outcome? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon members, let us put context into what we are doing. We are dealing at a macro level here with a pernicious ideology called racism. So, for us to address that we cannot pick and choose incidences; we must deal with this ideology in a broad way.



You are mentioning an example which I do not know about, but there are many other examples. So, what becomes important is that all of us as society follow the conference in 2000 against all intolerances, not only racism, but sexism and xenophobia. All of those intolerances will have to be fought in our society for us

... and tribalism, you can name them ... to be moving forward as a society.



What is not going to help us is to pick one here and another there. Let us deal with the system because this thing is systemic so let us deal with it that way. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr T W MHLONGO: House Chairperson, to the Minister, we support MRM’s objectives ...





... ngifuna ungizwe kahle.





We support it. But one of the things I want to highlight and I put it to you is that the MRM is funded by sports by its objective you cannot even measure on sports, arts and culture.



For an example, I put it to you that this is one of the dodgy movements that is subsidised by the department but the outcome we cannot even measure or see.



House Chairperson, I want to find out from the Minister, can you give us exactly MRM’s success, full rates and its achievement especially in arts, culture and sports, and give us exactly the



impact because we have subsidised the movement but we do not see its outcome? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: No, you are mistaken hon member. The task of moral regeneration is a task of everybody and all sectors in our society. [Applause.]



When you talk about sport, for instance, we want to ensure that you have an ethical morally upright society. The ingredients of that is discipline and that is what sport teaches you, discipline, as an example.



Secondly, the issue about how society is moving forward would be found everywhere. You can’t have any individual in any social station who would not identify themselves with uprightness with moral regeneration of our society. So, therefore, you must actually be the one who is championing that especially because you are in sport, arts and culture. You must champion this very objective of society because it is going to be for the benefit of all of us, including sports men and women of this land. Thank you. [Applause.]






Nks N V MENTE: Enkosi Sihlalo. Mphathiswa isazela sihambisana nobuntu, ubuntu buhambisana nengqeqesho kunye nentlonipho.





If the moral fibre dies here, in Parliament, within ourselves as parliamentarians by uplifting masculinity and whiteness and put it on a higher pedestal than feminity, then we have no role playing into the moral fibre vitalisation.



Why am I saying that? The Netball SA national team, the pride of this country, won the African champions two weeks before AmaBhokobhoko but they were no subject of this House. Then, when the Boks won, they were a subject to everyone.



Do you believe that netball must not be praised and be given a tribute by Parliament because they are females over the males and amaBhokobhoko?



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much hon member on your intervention. I am glad that you are an hon member of this House, which means that we are together in raising issues of women in sports.



Once you support that move, actually even today you can give notice for the debate and discussion. I am happy you are highlighting it. Just follow it through because you are raising a fundamental point.



In sport, for instance, the support you have for males is not the same with females. You have Banyana Banyana, for example, and people are not coming forth to support them. Same thing happened with the netball until this year when they reached the semi- finals. Then we started seeing the private sector trickling in wanting to support them.



We want to make a point and a call that they should be supported even as they develop and reach the point where they are than coming only when they are winning. So, it is a support of all of us for women in sport. We also have specific awards called G-Sport for women in sport. [Interjections.] No, it is “sport” with an “r”. It is a very specific ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! It is g-sport.



The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: With an “r”. There is an


“r” there. So, that is part of what we are putting in place in trying to highlight this issue, including the launch of the football women’s league for Banyana Banyana and others to be ... [Time expired.]



Question 276:


The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: House Chairperson, we would like to indicate upfront that the department really believes that it has to ensure that there is institutional recourse for our people. We also believe that the department must not allow itself to be overexposed to being directed only by courts in its response to our people. That is our commitment to our people.



Therefore, in this particular case, the department reviewed the current legal frameworks for the social assistance programme for children and has identified the root causes of the foster care programme’s challenges as requiring a legal solution. The two legal frameworks – that is, the Children’s Amendment Bill and the Social Assistance Amendment Bill – were finalised with key proposals on how the foster care system’s challenges could be resolved.



The two Bills were then processed and tabled in Parliament for processing. The Social Assistance Amendment Bill is currently before the portfolio committee for legislative processing, while the Children’s Amendment Bill is being discussed with the Leader of Government Business for prioritisation and processing by Parliament.



One also needs to indicate that these are Bills that were introduced quite a while ago – during the fifth administration – and they are now being processed during the sixth administration.



The Social Assistance Amendment Bill proposes an extended child support grant which is higher than the child support grant in value, to cater for orphans and vulnerable children that are cared for by relatives and next of kin. This was one of the major contentions.



This is one of the solutions that will relieve the pressure on the foster care system, since most relatives are applying for foster care in order to access the foster care grant.



The Children’s Amendment Bill proposes a comprehensive legal solution by, among others, the following: long-term placement of



children in need of care and protection without going back to court every two years, but monitored by social workers who report to the court; devolving guardianship for orphaned or abandoned children to the Children’s Court for accessibility by caregivers and relatives; strengthening prevention and early intervention to ensure protection of children and their families; and ensuring access to adoption services as part of the permanency placement for a child or children.



So the Social Assistance Act, Act 13 of 2004 provides the national legislative framework for the provision of social assistance in the form of social grants. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, will continue to administer the foster child care grant as prescribed by the state. The foster child grant is provided for children found by the court to be in need of care and protection and placed with a foster parent or foster parents. Thank you.



Mr M GUNGUBELE: Hon Minister, we appreciate the primacy attached to the significance of the legislation, both the Children’s Amendment Bill as well as the Social Assistance Amendment Bill.



Minister, could you share with us what value unlocking the processes of the Children’s Amendment Bill will actually create



for fast-tracking the Social Amendment Bill as it is actually being legislated now.



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, I do want to indicate that our presentations to the portfolio committee also included bringing in the MECs for Social Development from all the provinces so that we found ourselves to be of one mind on this particular case. We want to make sure that the Gauteng North High Court’s decisions are implemented. I said that, if we are unable to implement the court’s decisions, we need to go back to the court as soon as possible to indicate as much. We believe that, where we are able to implement the court’s decisions but we find challenges, we should be proactive in responding to those challenges. Thank you.



Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Minister, our foster care crisis is very closely linked to our social worker crisis. We simply do not have enough social workers to protect all of the children that we need to protect. In fact, many children have fallen through the cracks and foster care orders have lapsed. Social workers are overburdened and high case loads cannot always be solved.



President Ramaphosa recently told us that it pains him that so many social workers that were trained by the state remain unemployed. He committed the state to ensuring that those social workers are employed.



So, simply put, Minister, what is the plan with regard to all the social workers that remain unemployed? Can you give us a timeframe in which those social workers will be absorbed and employed?



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, we are committed to ensuring that the social workers, particularly the ones who have been trained by the state, are placed as soon as possible. It is very unfortunate that it has taken us this long, and that social workers who were trained were not immediately deployed. But the reality was that, even though we trained those social workers, we did not necessarily have the money to then employ and pay them.



We have now prioritised this issue and have taken concrete steps to consider taking money from somewhere else within the budget without necessarily undermining those other responsibilities. I can assure the House that we have, at the moment, managed to pull together about R90 million or thereabouts which we will use to pay these social workers.



But we also do believe that, when social workers are trained by government, it is our responsibility to start looking at who else can assist us so that the social workers do not depend only on the Department of Social Development for their employment or deployment.



We are very much aware that within education, within the police, within justice, and within some other structures there are opportunities to have co-ordinated efforts. We should have discussions with these departments and make sure that we absorb all social workers.



In our view, we need social workers community by community, street by street, almost house by house if we want to ensure that the work of social workers has an impact. This need for social workers includes their deployment in schools. We are not happy with the fact that social workers carry a heavy burden. One social worker in a school that has so many challenges ...



So, in this sixth administration, we will do our best to pool our resources, not only under Social Development, but also in general to make sure that social workers are employed. Thank you.



Ms A L A ABRAHAMS: Hon Minister, asking someone living in extreme poverty who has taken on the extra financial burden of raising an orphaned child to willingly choose the child support grant of R430 or the proposed top-up amount of R615 per month, when a foster care grant is R1 000, is actually asking that family to take food out of that child’s mouth and the mouths of the other members of that family. Bills alone cannot solve the problem.



Minister, how will the department encourage these grant recipients to choose R430 or R650 over a R1 000 a month, since this is one of your solutions?



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for that question, hon member. I think there also has to be an appreciation of the challenges that are faced by the state in general when it comes to financial resources and what can be given to recipients. I wish it were dependent on me as a Minister of Social Development. I definitely would not have them make those kinds of choices.



But the bottom line is that, as a country and as a nation, we have to realise that we are going through a terrible financial crisis and we therefore need to do the best we can. I would hate for them to have to make that choice. But, unfortunately for me, there is



not much we can do about it. All that we can do is make sure that the money we do have covers as much as it possibly can. It is not a choice that is ideal but it is the solution we had to come to given the current financial situation. Thank you.



Ms D B NGWENYA: Hon Minister, I just need to find out ... One of the factors that presented itself as a problem ... as a challenge, actually ... in respect of this backlog, is the fact that these children have to be given unabridged birth certificates which costs a certain amount of money. Some parents cannot afford to pay this.



In your opinion, do you not think that it is important for the Department of Home Affairs to waive these fees, especially when they manage to give IDs for free during election time? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I agree with the hon member. We have to do everything in our power to reduce or remove constraints for our people. If part of that constraint is ensuring that we remove or at least reduce amounts of money which have to be paid for these services, we will gladly do that. I do think that our conversation with the Department of Home Affairs in the long term and in a broader perspective will not only look at



this particular issue that the member is raising, but will also look at all other areas in which we can reduce the pressure on our people, especially with an understanding of the fact that many of them do not have jobs and have little money with which to cover education costs, health costs and many other things.



So, I fully agree with the member and say to the hon member that it is our intention to have continued discussions around what it is that we can do to remove the pressure, especially financial pressure, from the most vulnerable. Thank you.



Question 244:




to the question that was asked by the hon Basson, the nature of the problem that we have in Emfuleni municipality was brought to the national consciousness when the Minister of Finance in his Budget Vote allocated the bulk of the work to the SA National Defence Force, SANDF. Since then we have taken over and made sure that we appoint a service provider to deal with this matter.



As you will know, this problem has serious consequences for all of us. When the intervention was brought in with the introduction of the services of the SANDF, 44 pump stations were not working, and



up until now - in the work that we have done, we have made sure that seven pump stations are working and 24 are operational. We are working very hard on this matter. We have a combination of ourselves, and we have the Rand Water assisting us and the municipality working on this matter.



We have since made sure that we give this responsibility to Ekurhuleni Water Care Company, Erwat, because we think that they have the specialty to deal with this matter. The amount of money that will be required to ensure that this work is done and completed in time for us to be able to use this facility efficiently is R1,1 billion. Emfuleni municipality had come to ask for our support because they did not have expertise nor did they have the necessary resources to deal with the problem.



Mr L J BASSON: Thank you for the reply, Minister. Minister, the Vaal River is one of 82% of this country’s rivers that has been polluted by 84% of wastewater treatment works in this country, which are dumping 4,2 million litres of sewage in our rivers everyday. Minister, what are you going to do to stop this? When are you going to use the use-it or lose-it principle and take away the responsibility of municipalities that are polluting our rivers? [Interjections.]





indicated, we have taken steps against Inxuba Yethemba Municipality because municipalities have the responsibility to make sure that our rivers remain clear and we are able to utilise them. I had a discussion with my legal adviser this morning to find out why we are not using the same measure to take Sedibeng Municipality to court, and I was informed that the reason we cannot do that is because Emfuleni Municipality came to us to ask for assistance because they did not have the necessary resources. We continued to give out information about what it is that we expect our municipalities to do to preserve our water so that we don’t have the crisis that we have right now. We will use the media and we will continue educating our municipalities about their responsibilities. Thank you.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you hon Minister - arising from your response, thank you for the estimation of R1,1 billion. We saw that the SANDF indicated R1 billion, and according to the Division of Revenue Bill, R241,9 million in the form of indirect Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant will be rolled over to also assist with this process. But you also indicated that you have legal advice.

Minister, what will you be doing to ensure that local municipalities stop polluting the system and that other



individuals and organisations responsible can be held civilly and criminally responsible for the sewage and the pollution. Thank you.





member, as I have indicated, we have taken legal action against Inxuba Yethemba Municipality, and we are hoping that we are going to use this as a test case against municipalities which do not adhere to their responsibility. I am very glad that this morning we discussed the matter of R241 million that we would like to use in assisting us with matter and also prioritise it.



In all, hon member, for us as South Africans to be able to have quality water that we need for the next 10 years, we need

R90 billion per year. That is an excessive amount of money. However, we are hoping that with regular education around municipalities and making sure that they do their work, we will be working in collaboration with them. We will await the court case that we have right now as a test case to make sure that there are consequences for polluting our water.



Mrs S M MOKGOTHO: Minister, the clean up of the Vaal River system by the SA National Defence Force resulted in alleviating some of



the pollution issues of the Vaal River. Will the department still utilise the services of the SA National Defence Force in future? Thank you.





you, hon member. The Defence Force was our first recourse to deal with such a huge problem because they have the necessary lift to be able to deal with this. They have done a good work; they have clearing and dislugging the river. They have done whatever is possible within the means of the Defence Force. They have indicated to us that they are now ready to leave and we will be handing over to Erwat, which has been commissioned to continue to deal with this work because it has the necessary expertise.



We have an agreement with the Defence Force that they will be available to us when we experience another problem. However, we are intending to put together a team of young people to be trained the same way that we have trained other services within the Defence Force so that we can continue securing the rivers that we have, especially the dams, and making sure that the necessary security is put in place so that we stop people polluting the river.



We are going to have programmes like those we have in the Environmental Affairs such as Working for Water, to make sure that on a regular basis we are able to check and clear the rivers.

However, we are grateful for the Defence Force and I think that at the end of November they will be rounding up and going back to their barracks, leaving behind those people that they would have trained. Thank you.



Ms C SEOPOSENGWE: Hon Minister, what are the timelines for the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation and the intervention team for the implementation plan for intervening and mitigating the deteriorating conditions of the Vaal River? Thank you.





member, the timeframes depend entirely on how much money we have. We have the requisite money to be able to do what needs to be done and we will do it as soon as possible. Thank you.



Question 263:




Chair, I think I qualify for an award for today. The question is why does Mandela City informal settlement in Stellenbosch Local



Municipality have toilets without prefabricated doors? I don’t know how to respond to this and I think the member who asked this question, knew what the answer is. What the Stellenbosch Local Municipality does, is to put precast concrete toilet units with durable doors, which have metal hinges in the toilets. We have people who are you know, very disrespectable of people’s privacy and the doors keep getting lost and stolen on a regular basis.

That’s why we don’t have doors on those toilets; they are stolen on regular basis. [Applause.] Thank you.



Ms L H ARRIES: Thank you Minister, I would like to bring it to your attention, ever since the toilets were put up the in Klapmuts, there were never doors in the toilets. It is inhuman hon Minister and it is the worst form of inhumanity that our people are suffering in Stellenbosch. Please, our people’s lives are at risk, those toilets are opposite to another. It means that if you sit this side, I sit that side. Our people’s lives are at stake, our women can be raped, and our children can be raped. I ask your urgent intervention into this matter. [Applause.] Thank you.





member, the answer I have given here has been given to us by the relevant authorities in Stellenbosch. So, if they are not telling



the truth, we will look for the necessary consequences for them. It is an indignity indeed, if you have explained it the way you do. The explanation that has been given to us is that the doors keep getting stolen by people who are living in informal settlement. I will check on this and if it’s not true, we will bring it to the portfolio committee and see what we do about this matter, we cannot mislead Parliament. Thank you very much.



Mr W M THRING: House Chair, hon Minister yesterday was an International Toilet Day, the challenges of poor sanitation are one that extends beyond just informal settlements. The challenge of poor sanitation extends even to our schools, particularly the schools in Limpopo. What interventions has your department taken together with other intergovernmental departments, to ensure that our children are able to relieve themselves with dignity? Thank you Minister.





hon member the matter of toilet is a matter of dignity and the fact that we don’t have sufficient facilities for our people is an indictment to us as a society. We are working on innovative methods, because putting up the necessary infrastructure that has been lagging behind since we took over as government is going to



take a long time. We are now looking into other possibilities of putting up the kind of toilets that do not need water, what we call dry sanitation.



Just last week we had the pleasure to be given an award of R75 million by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and we extremely grateful for that. What they have brought with them was an exhibition of what is possible around the world in innovation of ensuring that we can provide our people with dry sanitation, where it is in the rural areas. We are looking into that, we are going to use the money that has been donated to us to put up the new technology that doesn’t require water, to ensure that we provide dignity. We will invite you to come and see this, it is indeed very revolutionary, and it works in many ways that I can go on about.



Mr X NGWEZI: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister the poor delivery of services by government to our people has become common course and so embedded in the very fibre of our government. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that she debunks this way of thinking and to prevent this from continuing, because in this department for an example, you find that there is lot of toilets that are whether unfinished or service sites or it’s housing and



all that, so what steps are you taking to actually prevent, you know that situation from happening in the future? We understand what has happened now, but for future purposes, what are the steps? Thank you.





member at this particular juncture I am certain that you know that I depend on you and every other Member of Parliament to assist in delivering the services. When your party goes out there and campaign for votes for next year, whatever, and what you are promising them, is going to provide you with this, that and the other. You can still do with us in government, because we will be here for a long time, but we need you to assist [Laughter.] We need you as Members of Parliament to assist us, come up with solution of what it is we can do in specific conditions.



What is available for government is the fact that we are able to directly go to the problem and make sure that it is done. What is available to you is continuously be there, to be the ears and eyes of government because it your people, our people which are suffering this, so I would like you in future, comrade that you talk about us. What are we going to do to solve this problem, both you and I? [Applause.] Thank you.



MS E L POWELL: Just to add the response that the hon Minister delivered on Stellenbosch. The Mandela City informal settlement dates back to 1994, it has been upgraded by Stellenbosch Municipality as recently as June this year. New toilets have been built providing each of the 183 households with their own private toilet base and wash bin. This is now one to one service which is far above norms and standards. A tender has gone out to replace the toilet doors and other informal settlements in the municipality that are constantly damaged by vandalism. In light of toilets, Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, recently responded to a question that I submitted, noising that 1200 toilets are provided to the 15 000 residents in Lindelani informal settlement and Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality at the cost of roughly a million rand a month. I visited Lindelani informal settlement last night, I can confirm that these apparent toilets are in fact no way to be found. If the toilets have now been distributed, does the Minister know where they are and if not will she commit to investigate?





I am amazed that the hon member will stand up and repeat exactly what has been told me which I indicated to Parliament and has been challenged by the member of the EFF as not been true. So, what we



are going to do is I am going to ask the portfolio committee to go check whether indeed in Stellenbosch what you are telling us here is true or not true. If it is not true we are going to look for necessary consequences.



We are going to go to Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality as well; the matter that you are talking about has not been brought to my attention, we will also go to Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality and found out if in fact there are any toilets and get the cost of that particular toilet but let’s us not avoid the question we are dealing with now. The question that was before me was about the Nelson Mandela City informal settlement and the information that has been given to me seems to be incorrect, that’s what got to find out and we going to go out and check on this.



Question 278:


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: House Chairperson, the reply to Question


278 is as follows. The award was made to a consortium of six universities namely, University of Witwatersrand, Sefako Makgatho Health Sciences University, University of Fort Hare, University of Pretoria, Nelson Mandela University and the University of the Free State since they are called the Free State Higher Education Consortium.



The service level agreement with the Free State Higher Education Consortium is an activity based reimbursement where the department will request a specific service from the Free State Higher Education Consortium. The service provider will indicate the price for the service. If the department is in agreement then the service will be requested, delivered, then reimbursed. Thank you.





Vho T B MUNYAI: Ndaa, Mudzulatshidulo wa Nn?u na Mira?o ya Phalamennde yo?he nga vhu?alo, nga u bonya ha i?o, ndi khou humbela uri Minisita wa zwa Mutakalo, Dr Zweli Mkhize vha sedzuluse mafhungo haya vha tshi khou shumisana na vha zwa milayo na mapholisa uri vhathu vho itaho vhua?a kana vhugevhenga vha farwe.





Hon Minister, could you kindly consider broad forensic investigation and consider consequence management to those that were involved?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, we will consider investigations as long as there is information that is tabled to us. We will then follow it up and do the necessary investigation. Thank you.



Ms E R WILSON: Chair, Minister, doctors who were employed particularly in Limpopo on the pilot projects have already been released on as they were no longer funds to pay them. We have been on to three provinces on public hearings and we are constantly hearing people insisting that there needs to be more doctors and nurses in clinics and hospitals. The current proposed legislations does not state how many, where or how doctors are going to be employed and there is no indication of cost required - billions we suspect.



Given the already high vacancy rate in critical post and the Treasury advising that proposed legislation cannot be adopted as South Africa cannot afford it in this current fiscal shambles. How do you propose to address the shortages of doctors and by when?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I am sure the member would like to serve us with the information that relates to the doctors about whom there has been complains lately, so that we can follow it up and deal with the issue properly. However, in relation to the general requirements for various hospitals, we are aware that there are serious challenges of shortages because of vacancies that have not been filled. We are working on the matter.



Last week we addressed the issue that relates to the interns that needed to be taken into service. I am sure the members are aware that originally we did not have as many posts as there were numbers of interns that were coming out. So in the course of this we were able to realise that we needed to put additional funding to fund another 840 interns which we have distributed across the country. For doing so, we have had to look for additional resources in terms of internal savings. So the intern problem has been solved. We are now going to be taking the next steps to look at where else are the shortages and we will address them as much as we can. We are aware there are constraints in the system but what we have taken as an approach from the Department of Health is that we will do our own internal savings and channel the funds towards the solving the staffing problems.



If there are additional issues where there are concerns about certain doctors please submit to us, we will follow the matter up. Thank you.



Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, Minister, in terms of the budget in the country and how we deal with employing nurses and doctors in the health sector, it will not help if we do not focus on primary health care, which is prevention. Do you consider rolling out the



project of primary health care that is focusing on prevention than to deal with curing diseases that are escalating at high levels in South Africa, like it is done in Cuba where the disease rate is very low, because they have house calls and they focus on prevention? Can we also utilise our doctors that are from Cuba in that space of prevention?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, I want to thank you very much for the comments. We are indeed about strengthening primary health care and it goes from a point of going out there and ensuring that we have got enough community health workers who are going to be talking to communities about wellness, health promotion, prevention, even about issues of socio economic development, issues of sanitation, nutrition etc.



It is important for us to strengthen that aspect because for us to strengthen the National Health Insurance, it is important that there must be a very strong preventative approach so that we keep communities away from the hospital, screen diseases early, diagnose early, intervene early and reduce the numbers of diseases that ultimately get complicated and go to major hospitals.



Yes. There has to be a balance between primary health care, secondary care, tertiary care, quaternary care, but it all needs to be done in a process of a paranormal triage. I am very glad to understand that the member supports the issue Cuban trained doctors. If they could just make sure that the neighbours next to them also have the same feeling ... On their right, yes. Because we are going to be utilising a lot of those doctors who have got a very strong community medicine approach who go out to the community, support clinics, supports community health workers and screen patients early, keep patients history, family history and make sure that they deepen the area of prevention, promotion, house calls and those kinds of things.



It will take us a while to get there but that is a reason why the Fidel Castro Nelson Mandela Cuban training programme was started and thank you for supporting it. Can you please make sure that the rest of the members give us the same support? Thank you.



Ms N V MENTE: I will sure do so. Socialism is the way.





Nk M D HLENGWA: Mhlali ngaphambili, Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, sengikuzwile uwuphendula umbuzo wami, ingxenye yawo, kodwa



ngiyafisa ukwazi ukuthi ziningi izimali ezichithakalayo lapha kwezempilo kanti imitholampilo nezibhedlela kubhidlikile kuyabhidlika, nemithi ayikho.



Lukhona yini uhlelo lokwakha lezi zingqalasizinda? Ngiyabonga.



UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMILO: Siyathokoza lungu elihloniphekile Mashasha, uhlangothi lokubhekana nokushoda kwemithi siyalusebenza kakhulu futhi sinohlelo ngaphakathi emnyangweni esilibiza nge-Stock Visibility System, SVS, lokubheka imithi isuka la yakhiwa khona izo iyofinyelela esibhedlela ukuthi uma ishoda isuke ibambeke kuphi.



Wuhlelo lolu esesilunikeze nabahlonishwa o-MEC besifundazwe ukuze bakwazi ukulandela ukuthi singabi nenkinga yokushoda kwemithi kungaboni muntu. Ngakhoke silwa kakhulu-ke nalolo hlelo. Okunye lwezinto esizibalile ngesikhathi sethula inkulumo yesabelozimali ukuthi kubalulekile ukuthi siyiqondise indaba yokushoda kwemithi. Siyazi ukuthi kusekhona lapho izinkinga zikhona kodwa sifisa ukuthi uma kukhona lapho amalungu ethola khona asithumelele khona sizokulandela sikulungise. Uhlangothi lokulimala kwezingqalasizinda ikakhulukazi imitholampilo siyalisebenza nalo kakhulu, sinohlelo esilibiza ngokuthi i-10 year Infrastructure



Plan lokubheka izibhedlela nemitholampilo esizokwazi ukuyilungisa kule minyaka eyishumi.



Kodwa, ngaphezu kwalokho, sisasebenza uhlelo esasithe sifuna ukuthi kulungiswe yonke imitholampilo nezibhedlela. Sisazama ukulisebenza-ke lelo hlelo ukuze ekugcineni wonke umuntu abesezikhungweni zezempilo ezisezingeni elifanele. Ngaleyo ndlela- ke into ebekwa umhlonishwa siyafisa ukuthi wuhlelo esiphezu kwalo. Siyabonga.



Question 279:


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon House Chairperson, in response to Question 279, the Department of Health is committed to finding gender-based violence and takes the issue of rape and related offences very seriously. We believe that these cases receive urgent attention by our health professionals.



The issue of the collection of evidence using rape kits for both adults and children is important for us, since the conviction of perpetrators of sexual violence is critically dependent on the evidence that we have provided. Our forensic trained nurses and doctors collect evidence to assist the criminal justice system in the conviction of perpetrators. It is therefore our duty to ensure



that these rape kits are available at all times to execute this function. To this end we work very closely with the SA Police Service, SAPS.



The procurement of rape kits is the responsibility of the SA Police Service. These kits are physically brought by the SAPS to the health facilities for collection of evidence by health professionals during the examination of the survivors of sexual violence. The evidence collected by health professionals using these rape kits is then taken by the SAPS to the SAPS Forensic Science Laboratory for DNA and analysis.



With regard to the second question, health professionals provide the following services to survivors of sexual violence: Physical examination, collection of forensic evidence using the J88 form, medico legal evidence comprising both documentation on the examination done and the DNA evidence collected during examination, in children laboratory’s evidence on partially of particular sexually transmitted infection can also be used as evidence, reporting child abuse, neglect and exploitation to the Department of Social Development and SAPS where necessary, providing HIV testing and counselling which includes postexposure prophylaxis and also provision of prophylactic medication to



victims of rape which should be available 24 hours a day and patients should be prioritised irrespective of the nature of physical injuries amongst them, prevention of pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections, prevention of hepatitis and tetanus, also the early detection of abuse and injuries on children and the referral of women and children to the Department of Social Development in the instance of their safety when its at risk to ensure that they are provided with a safe environment such as shelters, provision of comfort packs for rape victims, the referral of the patients to the psychiatrist and the psychologist to manage the emotional and psychological trauma, also to provide the safe environment through designated facilities which the Minister would publish on Government Gazette and this year we have about 281 of those that have been designated. Thank you very much, House Chairperson. [Applause.]





Ms P P DYANTJI: Sihlalo weNdlu, masibulele nakuMphathiswa ohloniphekileyo ngengcaciso entle kangakanana yalo mbuzo.



Kucacile ke Mphathiswa into yokuba aba bantu benza umsebenzi omhle kangaka ogqiba ukuwudakanca apha, bafanele bafumane uqeqesho oluthe chatha. Kaloku sidla ngokubona kwiinkundla zamatyala,



amatyala echithwa kusithiwa ubungqina abunasihlahla. Ingaba eli sebe lakho liqinisekisa kanjani ukuba aba bantu benza lo msebenzi omhle kangaka, bayaqeqeshwa ngokuthe chatha ukuze baphuculwe ukwenzela ukuba amatyala angaphindi achithwe ezinkundleni zamatyala kusithiwa ubungqina abunasihlahla? Ndiyabulela.





UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Siyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile, kuhlelo esinalo eMnyangweni Wezempilo ukuthi abahlengikazi nabodokotela bahlale njalo beqeqeshwa bevuselela ulwazi abanalo kulolu hlangothi lokuqoqa ubufakazi bokunukubezeka kwalowo osuke efike phambi kwabo.



Sikubona lokho kubalulekile ngoba siyazi ukuthi uma sekufikwa enkantolo umehluko phakathi kwalowo ovunwa icala noma olahlwa yicala kuya nokuthi ubufakazi obutholwe yilabo bohlelo lwezempilo bumi kanjani. Ngakhoke yinto esiyisebenzayo ukuthi bajwayelwe ukuqeqeshwa bavuselelwe kubhekwe nalapho kubakhona izikhala ukuthi bakwazi ukugcwaliselwa, bafundiswe babone indlela yokuthi ngokuzayo bangabi nezinkinga ezifana nalokho.



Kubalulekile-ke lokho kuthina ikakhulukazi-ke kwezinye izindawo ikakhulukazi ezibhedlela ezincane siye sisebenzise odokotela



abahlinzayo besifunda, abantu asebemkantshubomvu ohlelweni lokuthi uma kunenkinga enjalo bakwazi ukuyihlola ngoba bekwazi nokubheka izinto ezibalulekile ukuthi uma uzovela enkantolo yikuphi nakuphi okufanele ukuqinisekise ukuthi kwenzekile kutholakele.



Sizama ngawo wonke-ke amandla ukuthi abantu ababhekana nokufundisa nokusebenza udaba lokohlola abantu abanukubeziwe kube abantu abawujwayele umsebenzi kungabi abaqalayo ukusebenza ngoba ekugcineni sifuna ukuba uma befika bakwazi ukuma phambi kwenkantolo babeke ubufakazi obuzokwenza kucace lapho kukhona icala. Siyabonga.





Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, given the fact that there are serious challenges quite often at police stations with these rape kits, do you not think it is proper to rather have them at the medical facilities like district surgeons and your clinics and hospitals, so that they are available there, rather than at the police stations, because I think from what you have said, it appears that you do not have anything to do with the procurement of these things?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon House Chairperson and hon member, I think it is a bit of a complex matter and it is a matter of the intersection between the criminal justice system and the Health Department. It is not possible to do it in any other way, because normally what we do is that the police would bring in the kits and then wait for the examination and then tie up the kit and walk back to the police station with all the evidence so that it gets handled by the forensic laboratories. When the doctor has handed over the specimen and the evidence for examination, the matter becomes a police matter until the results come back. So, we have to either way make sure that there is good collaboration between the police and the medical officers who are in charge.



I think what becomes important is to always make sure that if there is a shortage of these kits, then the medical officers need to then insist that the police must bring that when they come across. In some instances the police depending on the numbers, can buy some kits and then leave them and make them available at the outpatient section, but that needs to be kept under very strict care so that it does not get contaminated. In that process then it is a matter of ensuring that there is always strong liaison between the police and the Department of Health officials or the head of that particular hospital to be able to deal with it.



I do not really think that we need to take over the procurement process, because in any case part of the chain involves the police having to take the kits back for investigation and come back with the results and then our doctor will come in and just give evidence based on what has come back from the forensic laboratory. Thank you.



Ms N N CHIRWA: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, at Kanyamazane there is a shortage of forensic nurses on weekends neh and you can just imagine by yourself what impact this has not only on women getting raped during the weekends, but also on victims getting justice because then they have to wait until Monday.



I want to hear from the Minister when will this issue of staff shortage particularly of forensic nurses be addressed at Kanyamazane and other rural areas because we know this situation is particular peculiar for villages and rural areas because the department does neglect the rural areas, please? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member let me start by saying that the department does not deliberately neglect rural areas. It just so happens that there is always going to be a shortage which is worse in rural areas, as compared to the urban areas. This an all over



phenomenon. In this case, when we are dealing with the specific area of Kanyamazane, we can follow that up to see what issues need to be given attention, but in reality what we normally do, when there are shortages of that nature we would simply then ensure that the patients are referred to the nearest available facility so that the issue can be in the hands of those who can handle it.



Some of the clinics cannot handle the issue of rape and therefore we would then need to refer theme. So, that is what we need to always make sure happens. That someone gets referred to the centre that has available expertise to be dealing with the matter.



If there are specific issues of concerns where the member has found something that is unsatisfactory, I request that you write it in a report that we can actually just investigate. However, to balance the shortfalls, we normally move patients to the area where there is available expertise to deal with the problem. Thank you.



Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, Khabazela, firstly, ideal health care and legal forensic service should be provided at the same time, same place and by the same person.



What is this department doing to ensure that health care professionals receive the required special training in order to provide services to victims of sexual assault as well as facilitate a contractive and professional relationship with other individuals or groups treating and assisting the victims or investigations in crimes? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon House Chairperson and hon member, ordinarily we normally encourage that the same person who examine the patient or the victim would be the same one who will hand the victim would be the same one who will hand the victim right up to the court processes. This is just to make sure that we do not have the misalignment and missing the information in between. So, that normally is the approach that we take.



The issue of the multidisciplinary nature of the challenges that we have to deal with in the case of rape is something that we cannot do much about. For an example, for physical examination and collection of forensic material for investigation, you might be having a nurse and a medical officer to deal with that, but for psychological counselling you will obviously need a psychologist who would be someone else, not the same people that would have done the first examination.



When it comes to the taking down of the statements that relates to the criminality of the activity that has taken place leading to the rape, then you need the police to deal with that. Then you already have a team of three different people who are focussing on three different aspects of the same individual. So, there is a point at which we may not be able to separate these three different participants in this case.



In terms of training, we answered the question earlier by indicating that we always give upgrading programmes of training to the nurses and doctors who are dealing with this matter. We always try and make sure that the people who deal with investigations or the examinations are people who have experience. That is why we talk about district surgeons. In most of the areas we refer the patients there because these are the people who are familiar with the procedures. There would be investigations that need to be taken up, as well as presentation of the matter to court so that we can ensure that there is conviction because of their own experience in the matter.



You can actually get an inexperienced officer who may not be able to present the matter or might miss certain factual findings and



therefore does become an issue that compromises the case. So, we always keep that in mind as we deal with these matters. Thank you.



Question 245:


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the response to question 245 is as follows: The total irregular expenditure for the sector in 2018-19, as reported by the Auditor-General is R7,3 billion and R5,6 billion for 2017-18. Irregular expenditure incurred in contravention of key legislation where prescribed processes were not followed.



There was a study done with structured interviews to follow up this matter, and for a number of years, the Auditor-General’s report raised the issue. We have been aware of the fact that there was a figure of over R20 billion, referring to the general health sector that was reported during one of the meetings with the Deputy Minister.



So, we have noted those issues, but in terms of the public health sector, we made great strides in addressing the burden of disease and improving access to health services. There has also been an improvement in the public health sector infrastructure, reduction



on the distances travelled by communities to health facilities, and the capping of the communicable diseases.



These are some of the issues that we tend to focus on when we deal with the question of ensuring that the expenditure is properly aligned.



We have focused on the alignment between planning and budgeting, so that there is no irregular expenditure. The internal audit and risk management unit has also put measures in place to deal with the issues of awareness, as well as the implementation of fraud awareness campaigns, the fraud prevention strategy and fraud prevention policy.



The President has also launched the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum, which is a collaboration amongst the various stakeholders. We mentioned here the special investigation units, the priority crimes directorates, the NPA and the public, in terms of the civil society representation. All of these are about facing up to the irregularities reported, so that they can all be investigated.



So, at the moment, the Department of Health, including five provinces, has reported about 81 cases to the South African Police



Services for investigation. So, we deal with this matter, in its complexity, by managing the finances within the department. We also deal with the consequence management, when it comes to criminal investigations where we believe that crime is committed and the police have to get involved. Thank you.



Ms S GWARUBE: Chairperson, Minister, during the launch of the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum, the Council for Medical Schemes revealed that at least R22 billion a year is lost to corruption in the health sector. Further to that, the SIU confirmed that fraud, waste, abuse in the sector amount to R39 billion a year.



It is therefore fair to conclude that over R60 billion a year is lost to corruption and inefficiencies within our system. This is money that could have been spent improving the health system and the lives of South Africans. This is money that could go towards upgrading hospitals and clinics, expanding the community health worker programmes, filling vacancies and critical posts. Instead, this money is lining pockets of those who are never punished by this government, people who steal shamelessly from the public.



In the quest to bring about universal health care in South Africa, there is a push for this government to establish another SOE that will contain a multibillion rand fund that will be managed by those who are politically connected to you, Minister. This goes against every good governance principle. How can we trust that the health sector will not become another Eskom or SAA and collapse due to rampant corruption? [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the hon member must try and keep to a straight line and not make unfounded statements. I am not aware of any one who is connected to me who stands to benefit from any state-owned enterprise. [Interjections.] We must face the issues of corruption as corruption, irrespective of whether it is in the ANC, DA, EFF or whatever. [Interjections.]



The issue that the member is talking about is a matter that was tabled at the launch of the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum. It was raised on the basis of the R22 billion that is being estimated by the Council for Medical Schemes. It was also quoted by the Deputy Minister, John Jefferys. That matter is an issue that was tabled to us as part of what this forum must attend to.



Regarding the rest of the issues that relate to fraud and corruption in the health sector, there has already been some action from the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum. Through this forum, some lawyers in the Eastern Cape who are involved in this particular scam have actually already been arrested. I have just indicated that 81 cases have been reported by five provinces, to ensure that all these people are investigated and acted upon.



By the time the entity that you are talking about gets set up, this forum would have been able to prove that we will be able to deal with corruption in the health sector. We think that is the best forum that you can ever create, because all the players are in the same space.



When you deal with corruption, you must deal with it as corruption as committed by public representatives, and not try and think that we can just score points on it in a cheap way. We must acknowledge that corruption is a serious scourge that this country must get rid of and we are determined to do that whether or not we agree with the opposition and the hon member.



We will deal with it. We will make sure that there is not corruption in NHI and we will make sure that, by the time that



entity is set up, this forum is able to dig up everything that is linked to corruption in the sector, whether it is in the public sector or in the private sector.



So, hon member, please, be assured, we will make sure that there is no corruption in NHI.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, hon Gwarube, can I refer you to Rule 85? It says that no member may impute improper motives to any other member or cast personal reflections upon a member’s integrity or dignity, or verbally abuse a member in any other way. A member, who wishes to bring any improper or unethical conduct on the part another member to the attention of the House, may do so only by way of a separate substantive motion.



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Order, Chair! Please, sit down! Please, sit down! [Interjections.] The Chair is addressing the House.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member!



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Sit down! Please, sit down; otherwise, I am also not sitting down. [Interjections.] Sit down! Sit down! [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will attend to you just now. [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon member from the ANC, that kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable. [Applause.] You have no right to just stand up and say whatever you want in the House, without the consent of anybody except yourself. It is not correct. It is totally disrespectful to the House. [Interjections.] Hon Dyantyi, I will therefore request you to refrain from such behaviour and apologise.



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Chair, may I address you?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No.



Mr Q R DYANTYI: May I address you, Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No. You will not address me; you will only apologise unconditionally.



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Chairperson, I apologise unconditionally. May I address you now? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, you can take your seat.



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Chairperson, may I address you now after apologising? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can you please take your seat? [Interjections.] Hon member, you wanted to raise an issue. [Applause.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, there is no member of our caucus who would want to impugn any other hon member without a substantive motion. That is why the hon Gwarube referred to ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I would request you to take your seat.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Sir, I am rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Will you please take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon member, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Sir, this is a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, it is not. You are raising your opinion. Hon members, we shall continue.



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, in terms of Rule 85(1), you reflected on the hon Gwarube that she had made a reflection onto the hon Minister. In fact, she did not. I would like to understand in terms of which Rule, or how she had actually impugned on the Minister’s integrity with what she had said.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, what I have done here is to give caution to the House, at large, not particularly to the member that you are referring to.



Mr F JACOBS: Chairperson, Minister, you have already referred to the SIU, and the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum, and the arrest of an attorney from the Eastern Cape on charges relating to fraudulent medical legal claims. All forms of corruption and



collusion are a challenge that seeks to undermine the health care in both the public and private sectors. What is the collaboration between the department and the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum as to ensure that fraud and corruption in the health sector, including fraudulent claims, inflated pricing by pharmaceutical companies and overbilling by service providers are dealt with appropriately and expeditiously? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, indeed, the basis of the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum is collaboration across various departments. It is also about ensuring that the various Ministers are available to offer support in the event of some logistical or whatever form of challenge that each unit involved in this case is experiencing.



So, for example, if there is a problem in the capacity of the investigators, the matter gets tabled at that level and the relevant department can then assist in solving the problem, rather than wait until we find out long after there was a problem. With this, we try to expedite that situation.



Beyond that, there has recently been the Health-Market Inquiry that has pointed out malfeasance and a lot of irregularities that



relate to the private sector, as such, particularly, the issue of inflated prices and the issue of overutilisation. Regarding these issues, the department is now involved in a process of ensuring that there is a satisfactory legislative framework that will be able to curb all of those excesses by legislation. Therefore, that makes it easier to take the matter up at the level of the police criminal investigation processes.



So, as we move into the future, as we implement the requirements or the recommendation of the Health-Market Inquiry, we are going to be attending precisely to those issues.



It is important to say that when you talk about health-sector corruption, we are talking about the health sector, both public and private. It is just as bad on either side. Therefore, we deal with it as corruption and we should not create an impression that corruption only exists in the public sector. It is actually rife in the private sector as well.



So, in this case, we will therefore announce the specific provisions that we need to implement to reduce those kinds of problems by strengthening particular legislations or regulations, to curb some of those excesses.



The rest of the issues will have to be dealt with as criminal investigation. This forum is equally capable of dealing with the corruption, even if the cases are reported in the private sector. So, hon member, we will actually use this platform to deal with the problem in its width and breadth and make sure that there is no corruption in the health sector. Thank you very much.



Mr S N SWART: Chair, Minister, we agree that it is disgraceful that over R20 billion has been lost to corruption in the health sector and the ACDP welcomes the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum launched on 1 October by the President. You indicated that the SIU and NPA are pursuing investigations, but a major problem, which you also referred to, is the collusion between persons suing government hospitals for malpractice, and certain state attorneys. You either settle the case that have no merit or deliberately lose the cases.



You referred to the Eastern Cape matter, but it appears that this practice is far more widespread – the pursuing of fraudulent medical legal claims. What steps are you able to take to pick this up earlier, given that, according to the SIU, it is almost, in what they are aware of, R100 million? Is it not possible to pick that up earlier, to prevent that? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, the estimation is almost


R100 billion; it is not even R1 million. Nevertheless, I just wish the other hon members would focus on the issue in the way that you have done, where we just deal with a problem as a problem and not try to create too much political point-scoring on an issue that is endemic in the system that you must deal with.



Thank you for the support of the Health Sector Anti-Corruption Forum. I still have to hear if some parties support it or not, or if they want to find space to be “politicking” about it.



In this case, let me just say, you are quite correct about collusion. We find that patients’ records can be lost and there might be collusion with regard to some stuff. We find some big firms ... And when we get to the bottom of it, some of the members here will be shocked. We find that, across the country, there are about four or five companies that are responsible for the major part of the claims. They made it their responsibility to just create these kinds of cases.



Ninety percent of the cases are about cerebral palsy that are ... [Inaudible.] ... related challenges. Here you know that if you are an obstetrician and a gynecologist that there will be certain



areas where such problems will arise. Some of them use the American standards and start calculating forward costs and then create huge claims. In some instances, we believe that there could be collusion from state-attorney level.



We are going to put a stop to all of that. At the end of the day, we have now identified areas where we will actually deal with it and treat those patients with special needs, cerebral palsy. So, there is no need for that to be added to the costs.



We need to deal with it in that way. We also have a team that will look at the trends. They are analyzing the trends and we will actually take the issue up, even with law society. Previously, I came across this kind of thing and I can tell you that we will catch them and when we do, you will actually be shocked because some of them are respectable firms. They take advantage of the disadvantages of the government system. We will fight it and fight to the end. It is still corruption, irrespective of who is doing it.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, Minister, I want to deal with two aspects. I think you covered the one of medical claims. Do you not believe that this House should take a decision to limit claims - a



liability of the state –particularly, in the health sector? And that might help a lot?



The second point I want to make is that there appears to be a serious challenge with corruption with regard to medicine in the health sector, in the public sector, where I am told a lot of these medicines don’t even arrive but are invoiced and are shipped to neighbouring states. What measures are you putting in place to try and prevent it?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, hon member, you have guessed right. Part of the way of dealing with the issue is that we cannot respond to everything, because the issue is broad. The legislation on limiting the costs to government is something that we are processing. We are discussing it with the Department of Justice.

That has to be put in place, so that, whatever you claim, cannot go further than this. That is one of the things that we are going to do.



We are also looking at working together with the Ombudsman to look at the experience of various other countries, because sometimes you need is a mediation process with the families of those who might have lost members, and have family members who were



compromised. Therefore, once you deal with that in a meditative process, there is no need for a lawsuit.



Sometimes the price inflation happens because the lawyers want to have their cut. In this case, we believe that those mechanisms are going to be helpful in dealing with this matter.



At the right time, we will bring the matter to the House and deal with it. We are simply saying that all of these are aspects of dealing with the issue of corruption.



There is no way we can allow people to just walk away with billions of rands, while they are supposed to help rebuild the health system. When you have NHI as well, the facilities will be available, so there is no need for anyone to claim in lieu of what might be the health needs of someone, because they will be expected to come to the NHI institutions anyway. So, we will deal with this issue.



The second issue that you are raising is around the theft of medicine. That is happening. Part of what I was talking about is the issue of stock visibility. We will start tracking the movement of medication from manufacturer to depot to hospital. I have said



that the department must actually find an app that will get the public to respond and tell us when there is a shortage of medication, so that we can intervene very early.



There has been medication found in neighbouring countries, sometimes with the labels of local hospitals. That needs to be dealt with. There are also stories about people that would walk into the hospital and get Panado and go sell them. We have to deal with all of those things



However, all I can say is that members must give us information whenever they find it, because they go out there and talk to people and communities. We will investigate and we will get to the bottom of it. If we are all similarly alert, we will be able to curb this. So, just sell us information and we will investigate it.



Question 280:




We are able to provide the road map and outline in terms of us clearing the backlog. Firstly, I can indicate that the current certificate backlog for the National Certificate Vocational, NCV, examination cycle from November 2007 to March 2019 totals 308



candidates as at 20 October 2019. So, only 308 NCV candidates have not received their certificates.



Then, in terms of the National Accredited Technical Education Diploma, Nated, Reports 190 and 191 backlog from November 2015 to November 2018 examination cycles, we have, in terms of Engineering Studies, the number of candidates who wrote at 1,5 million and only 2 020 are outstanding, which constitutes only 0,13%. In terms of Business Studies, 1,272 million candidates wrote, and only 178 are outstanding, which constitutes a backlog of 0,01%. In total, in terms of Nated Reports 190 and 191 backlogs, we only have 0,08% backlog.



We have made interventions in terms of the other outstanding certificates. There are meeting on a fortnightly basis between the department, the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, which is the IT component of the certification process, and Umalusi to try and deal with these issues. This includes weekly technical meetings, sourcing of outstanding certificate lists from TVET colleges and manually processing them by the department’s examination officials while Sita is enhancing their IT system, monthly certification task team meetings to deal with the challenges in relation to process, blocking the issuing of



certificates, and also the question of developing an integrated examinations information technology.



I must emphasise that the bigger challenge relates to the certificates for the examination cycle 2007 November to 2019 March. Our target date to completely clear off those

certificates for ... I mean for ... full certificates in terms of single exam sitting is 15 April 2020. Then, for NCV multiple exam sittings, our target is 30 September 2030.



The reason there are two targets is because, with regard to multiple exam sittings, it means that the student has sat for the same level but on different examinations. So there needs to be some consolidation of those subjects that have been passed. That’s why the deadline, or us clearing those certificates ... we intend to do that by 30 September.



Then, in terms of Business Studies, the examinations cycle of 2015 November up to 2018 November ... the intention is to clear those by 30 April 2020.



The Nated Engineering Studies ... same examination cycle –


2015 November to 2018 November – the intention is clear those by 31 May 2020.



So, essentially those are some of the dates as indicated. We know that we have been inundated with inquiries as it relates to this. We are doing everything in our power to ensure that every student that qualifies really does get their certification.



Precisely because we have so many examination cycles, we are faced with the challenge of some of the students believing that they qualify for either a certificate or a diploma, but when we do further investigations we find that they actually don’t.



Ms M J MANANISO: Deputy Minister, can you take the House into your confidence because, as the ANC, we are a caring government. In order to accommodate students from rural areas and disadvantaged backgrounds that do not have access to ICT, how far is the rollout of the manual tracking programme that ought to supplement the e- tracking system? Thank you.





Chair, what we must indicate is, all those students, wherever they



are ... hopefully they are listening ... we have been involved in various outreach programmes, social media, and various other media platforms, to try and encourage students to approach their TVET colleges where they studied and use the platform which the TVET colleges have – we are working with them – in order for them to indicate that they’ve got outstanding diplomas or certificates.

Through that platform we will be able to assist them.





Mnu B B NODADA: Mandibulele Sihlalo. Sekela Mphathiswa asingabo abafundi beekholeji i-TVET kuphela abangenazo izatifiketi kude kube namhla. Kukho abafundi abafunda kwii-Seta (Sector Education and Training Authority) abathi xa bephuma baphele bengamabanjwa ahleli emakhaya, kuba kaloku abanazo izatifiketi zokuphuma bakhangele umsebenzi.



Ingaba isebe lakho yintoni eliyenzayo ukuqinisekisa ukuba abafundi abaphuma kwiikholeji i-TVET nee-Seta abangenazo izatifiketi ukususela kunyaka wama-2007 bayazifumana? Lithini icebo lakho kwaye lingakanani ixesha olibekayo ukuze bafumane izatifiketi zabo? Ndiyabulela.





think I was quite elaborate as it relates to the students from TVET colleges in terms of the deadlines. I think if hearing is a problem, I can give you the printout so that you read up on what the actual deadlines are. [Laughter.]



As it relates to the Sita, the students who have not received their certificates ... I think what would really appreciate ... What would really help in this regard is if there are specific sector education and training authority, Setas, which have not issued certificates to specific students on specific projects. If we really get that information, I personally want to take responsibility to make sure that we follow up and make sure that that Sita really gives those certificates to those students.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy Minister, these certificates and evidence of qualification has been outstanding since 2007. To my knowledge, in March 2018 you met with Sita and Umalusi to discuss the matter. The printing of these certificates is outsourced. So, where did the problem occur? If it is being outsourced, certainly there is a service level agreement as far as the printing of these certificates is concerned.



What went wrong, and what ©consequences are there for those responsible for it going wrong?





Chair, in fact, there are, as I indicated, weekly meetings between Umalusi, the department and Sita. Sita is the IT service provider. The department is responsible for examinations. Umalusi is responsible for certification.



Now, the bulk of these certificates come about when students write on multiple examination sittings. So, someone will write their N4 examinations in June and in December, and they will carry over some of the subjects. Some of them may not have passed some of the subjects.



This creates that bulk. They will also try and create a combination of subjects so that they are able to be certificated for a particular level.



So it’s not merely about the printing. If it was just about us getting into the office and printing, that would have been quite easier to do. So, it involves us ... I mean, it involves the students showing that they are indeed qualified for that



certificate, us helping them consolidate for a particular level certification and then submitting that to Umalusi. Umalusi then certifies that indeed this is the case, and then Sita issuing that certificate.



Essentially, that’s the process. I don’t know whether you are denying because you don’t understand or you are denying because it’s in your habit, but, whatever, I think that’s the process. Thank you. [Laughter.]



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, that is the biggest load of hogwash I have ever heard in this House. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen ... hon Paulsen, that’s not okay. That’s totally not right.



The last supplementary question on this question will be asked by hon Ngcobo.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip, I’m listening.



Mr S L NGCOBO: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister ...





Kancane mhlonishwa uNgcobo...





... there’s a point of order.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair of the session, I rise on a point of order. I think, when you are presiding, with due respect, you have to be consistent. You said hon Dyantyi must withdraw and apologise, but you are not saying the same about that complaint and that hon member. Can I request you to be consistent, Chair? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. I have noted that. [Interjections.]



Order! Order, hon members!



Hon Ngcobo, you were on the podium.



Mr S L NGCOBO: Thank you, House Chair.         Deputy Minister, thank you for coming out clearly on the issue of the certification backlog. But, that goes hand in hand with what students learn during the year. You have not said anything about the outdated curriculum.

What could the Deputy Minister tell us about the outdated curriculum in the TVET colleges and how soon does the Deputy Minister hope that would be properly addressed? Thank you.





House Chair, may we request that the hon member put the question in writing for reply, and we will furnish him with the details in that regard? We believe it is a completely different question and that there is a lot of work to which I would not want to do injustice by presenting now in this session. I believe that I can do much better if he presents the question as a written Question for written reply. Thank you.



Question 281:


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, the General Education Certificate, GEC, is envisaged to be registered at level one of the national qualification and it is intended to provide qualifying learners with applied competence on a basis of further learning.



We believe that this qualification will provide standardized benchmark against which schools can compare their internal assessment standards. It will also provide the system with the quality assurance mechanism that will be used to measure learner performance, knowledge and values.



It is structured to provide requirements that will ensure them with appropriate skills and help us to monitor the system. It will serve as an entry to level two qualifications which is offered across the system. It is aligned to the qualifications offered through the South African National Qualifications Framework.

Learners obtaining the GEC can continue their learning; it is not an exit certificate. They can continue their learning through three parts, general academic, technical vocational and technical occupational pathways. Thank you.



Mr P R MOROATSHEHLA: Hon House Chair, thank you Hon Minister for the response. Your response assists you in that indeed as you respond, there is no intention to dump and abandon our kids.

However, it remains important for this House to know whether the department has sufficiently engaged with Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology, Dhest, and other relevant



stakeholders, to absorb such learners who will opt to continue their studies through the TVET colleges. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed the intention is not to have this qualification as an exit qualification. It is a qualification which leads learners to other courses. They could go to the further education and training; they could go to all the courses that I have mentioned. There is no intention to dump learners.



More importantly as the hon member is saying, for higher education we do even need to consult with them. We have a working team with them which on an ongoing basis deals with qualifications and assessments. They are custodians of your Qualifications Frameworks Authority, we work with Umalusi. All these courses have been properly cascaded.



Hon Chair, what is more important is that, as South Africa in the whole SADC, we were the only country which did not assess learners in the standardized manner by the time they finish their basic education. This is to strengthen the system. It is a decision that has long been taken in our system. Even if you look at the eastern



countries, countries assess learners when they finish their basic education phase.



We are just implementing what we had long agreed on but had delayed because of different challenges that were confronting us as a country. We feel that we have stabilized the system adequately; we can begin to implement some of the old decisions that were taken as a country which are in line with international practice. Thank you.



Ms M E SUKERS: Hon Minister, the ACDP would like to know what the department will do about those who left the education system in Grade 9, 10 and 11 before the implementation of the GEC certificates, and whether the department has any strategies to target the school leavers so that they can return to the educational system.



THE MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, indeed the learners who have left the system as it is estimates that almost 3,4        - young people between the ages of 15 and 24 are not in employment, education and in training. It is a matter that we assist with as cabinet. Cabinet has mandated the Department of Basic Education and other departments to provide a strategy to deal with that.



As Department of Basic Education, we had launched what we call the Second Chance Programme, but for now because of our capacity it is really and matric rewrite. From the outcomes of the last assessment, it is quite clear that it is inadequate. We need to have a much more comprehensive programme in partnership with the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology which has the responsibility of Adult Basic Education and Training, Abet, which is the other phases below Grade 12, and produce a comprehensive programme.



We are working with the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology and other bodies to make sure that we can be able to find a safety net for those learners who are outside the system as a second chance programme. It is a programme that we are building on an ongoing basis. Thank you, Chair.



Mr P R MOROATSHEHLA: Hon House Chair, do I have your attention? I think I am done with my question. I am saturated. Thank you.



Mrs N I TARABELLA-MARCHESI: Thank you hon Chair, Minister, currently 55% of youth between the age of 15 and 24 years old is unemployed. Amongst them are those who have Grade 12 certificates, TVET certificates, Further Education and Training, FET,



certificates and university graduates whom corporate South Africa is not employing currently. How are you going to make sure and ensure that these grade nine learners if they decide to leave the schooling system or go and pursue TVET qualifications, how are you going to make sure that they become employable and be able to compete with those students that I spoke about? Is your intention just to get them out of the system, get them out of your hair so that they do not have to be a problem anymore?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No Chair, they are not on my hair at all. The point with the GEC certificate is -. I have explained this over and over again. It is to provide a standardised assessment at the end of basic education, so if they are not - it is not intended for them to leave. We already have 3,4 million of them who have left even before the certificate comes. There is nothing about it being an exit. So say if they leave, what do I do with them – they are not supposed to leave.



The intention – I want to repeat, is to make sure that we give a standardised assessment paper in line with international trends, that by the time you finish your basic education we have to recognise and acknowledge that you have finished that phase, but you are not supposed to leave.



I have said to Marchesi – maybe because she is young, when I grew up I had a Junior Certificate, JC, I did not leave; the certificate does not say leave. I had a Standard Six Certificate, I did not leave. The whole idea is to benchmark at a certain level so that as a country you know as we know in matric that an-A in Tzaneen is the same as an-A in KwaZulu-Natal. Even the exit of basic education is to give the standardisation; there is nothing to do with exit, markets and other things. It is not there, it has nothing to do with that.



Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Thank you very much, can you give me a chance. Minister you have indicated earlier in your speech that the GEC plan forms part of the initiative to deal decisively with quality and efficiency through implementation and standardised assessment. You have also now reiterated now about the qualifications based on further learning in technical, vocational and those further institutions.



My problem is that we are aware of the fact that these institutions are plucked by overcrowding, it has been a problem. Firstly, will they have enough space to accommodate them?

Secondly, will the education be free? Will they receive free education? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Already and fortunately as a country, our education is free even post you basic education. Your FET learners who are in Grade 10, 11 and 12 go for free. We have introduced a number of technical subjects, they are free. It will continue to be free even beyond basic education to go to that level. So if that was the question – the points you were raising earlier are correct, that is what we want to do.



I can assure you that there will not be fees despite the fact that after Grade 10, 11 and 12, it is technically not basic education, it is further education and training. It is going to be vocational and technical. All these courses are free and are going to continue to be free.



THE HOUSE CHARIPERSON (Mr M L D NTOMBELA): The time allocated for the questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.







(Draft Resolution)



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, hon Chair of Chairs, hon Ntombela. I move the draft resolution, printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:



That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, for the purpose of conducting the Second Reading debate today on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill in the National Assembly which is section 76.



Motion agreed to.






There was no debate.






That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly adopted.






(Second Reading debate)



Mr S N BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chair, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon Masondo, hardworking members of the Standing Committee on Appropriation, fellow South Africans, ladies and gentlemen, the African National Congress supports the 2019 Division of Revenue Amendment Bill hereafter referred to as Bill, because it continues to be a redistributive and pro-poor. This is a short Bill which does not drastically change the 2019 Division of Revenue Act. The net effect of the adjustment to the 2019-20 budget is an increase of about of R24,645 billion. The biggest contributor to this increase is the recapitalisation of Eskom. You will remember, hon members, that a Special Appropriation Bill recently passed by Parliament to assist Eskom to pay its debts and interests.



Hon members, the Money Bills enjoins Parliament to consult citizenry as it considers the Bill. This is inline with what the ANC believes that the people should be the architects of their destiny. During the process the committee engaged SA Local Government Association, Salga, and the Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse, Outa, and receives submissions from equal education. The input provided by the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, is also valued.



The committee urges the Minister to engage with Salga meaningfully before the next budget. We are aware that they are part of the Budget Forum, but it was clear from our interaction that there are things which need more time between and amongst them. The biggest complaint is that the equitable share formula is loaded against local government. Thus, hon Deputy Minister, it is imperative that you engage with Salga. What has always been missing in these engagements is the voice of provincial governments. Although we had a few representatives from legislatures, unlike in Salga, there is no united voice representative of the sphere of government. Yet, provinces are 95% grant funded.



Lastly, what informs the bid is a lack of spending or underspending of the budget items and reprioritisation. Obviously,



hon members, the broader economic environment and Fiscal Framework have a bearing on the Bill. The downward revision of the GDP growth from 1,5% to 0,5% and unemployment rate of 29,1% in the country are critically factors in this Bill. The Bill will continue to try and help with stimulating the economic growth, assisting with job creation opportunities and providing the much needed safety net for those who are most vulnerable in our country.



The Division of Revenue ensures that there is redistribution of resources to the poor and rural areas. Although tax base is concentrated in urban areas, hon members, allocation through the Division of Revenue transfers higher per capita per household amount to rural areas and also, hon members, provinces that are poorer receive bigger share per capita. Rural municipalities receive more than twice allocations compared to the metros which have higher own revenue raising abilities. For instance, on average, rural municipalities receive R11 200 per household compared to R4 900 receive by metros per household.



Hon members, the committee is concerned about the inability to spend allocated monies by certain departments and local governments as can be seen in some conditional grants. The usage



of funds made available for capital projects as operational expenditure also denies our people of much needed services. This coupled with a detoriating state of financial management and local government level contributes to the lack of service delivery.

Although Salga calls for more resources, we are making the point that money is not necessarily a panacea to local government challenges. As a committee, we are unequivocal in our demand for improved governance and financial accountability.



Local government debtors’ book amounts to more than R165 billon - please note that. Local government debtors’ book amounts to more than R165,5 billion, while their creditors amount R60,2 billion. This means that if everyone were to pay what he or she owes, local government would be in a positive cash position of R105,3 billion and everybody would be happy thereafter. What is worrying is that Parliament appropriates money to, among other things, pay municipalities. Some of them as reflected by the R10,3 billion at government institutions owe to municipalities. We are, therefore, calling on hon Ministers and director-generals to settle their debts owed to municipalities. [Applause.]






Abanye abantu-ke abangafuni ukukhokha komasipala, osomabhizinisi. Bakweleta omasipala ...





 ... R24,7 billion. This is more than two times the amount owed by government.





Kodwa uma sikhuluma asikhulumi ngabo ukuthi bayakweleta futhi asazi ukuthi yini indaba bengakhokhi ngoba izimali banazo.

Bangabokuqala ukufika lana bathi, hhayi, umasipala uyakweleta, kodwa kubona ngokwabo bayakweletwa.



Sithi-ke, osomabhizinisi nezinkampani zabo nezinhlangano zabo ake benze isiqiniseko ukuthi kuyakhokhwa. Bese sithi komasipala, hambani niyolanda imali yenu kosomabhizinisi abanikweletayo.

Lingisani umashonisa ukuthi uma ekuthola uhola abe esekulinde esangweni. Hambani-ke nani niyolanda izimali zenu.





Hon members, what is even more worrying at least from our interaction with Salga, is that we did not find a credible and clear strategy to collect what is owed to them. In addition, the



weak economy which has resulted in, among other things, under collection by the SA Revenue Service, Sars, and climbing debt-to- GDP ratio has closed the fiscal space for financial manoeuvring. Thus, reprioritisation and efficient use of the funds remains the only option. A situation where funds are allocated but not utilised can no longer be tolerated. We know that there are funds which are banked and not used an institution’s budget on interests from their banks. This is suboptimal because the cost of that money to National Treasury is higher than what they get from the banks that is apart from the opportunity cost of that money.



Hon members, it is this understanding that made us to challenge local government and also come up with viable and sustainable growth strategies for the municipalities. Also the role of the small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs - women and youths own businesses - cannot be overemphasised. Growth shall not only come from big companies, but from these new players. It is thus critical that we, as parliamentarians, create enabling environment through proper funding and legislation. More energy for Salga should be stand on trying to identify growth opportunities.



As I conclude, House Chair, let me deal with the economics of small business being the source of economic growth and the employment creation.





Uma usomabhizinisi omncane enza inzuzo ka-R1 million ...





... the chances is that that small business will reinvest that money.





Kodwa uma ungxiwankulu enza inzuzo ka-R1 million uzoyithatha leyomali ayise ebhange ngeke ayitshale uthi emnothweni.





So, this is the long and short of it. Therefore, when we call for the support of small businesses, it is not just because of the good sounding phrases or we want to be political correct, we are also economically correct.






Asisekeni osomabhizinisi abancane. Ukhongolose uyaweseka loMthethosivivinyo. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]



Mr D JOSEPH: Hon House Chair, the DA supports the report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations; however, the DA does not support the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. The DA welcomes the presentations made by interest groups outside of Parliament and wishes to thank our stakeholders working within government structures.



The Division of Revenue cuts across all spheres of government. Underspending, and fruitless and wasteful expenditure remain a concern while millions of people are in need of basic services. The underspending of school infrastructure grants has become an embarrassment, while learners are still making use of pit toilets. The School Infrastructure Grant is amended to replace old and outdated school buildings. Grant funding is meant to bring human dignity to learners via access to water, sanitation and electricity.





Agb lede, dit is uiters belangrik dat die Parlement aandag aan die voortdurende droogte en klimaatsverandering in die meeste van ons



provinsies gee. Nasionaal, provinsiaal en plaaslike regerings sal nouer moet saamwerk om die voortbestaan van landbou, voedselsekerheid, markte en plaasgemeenskappe te beskerm.





Where necessary, municipalities and provinces must declare disaster areas and apply for national disaster relief funds.





Die Vaalrivier-stelsel verkeer in ’n noodtoestand. Die


R241,9 miljoen wat vanaf Water en Sanitasie skuif sal die Emfuleni Munisipaliteit in staat stel om ... waterwerkestelsel met ’n beoogte 28 nuwe pompstasies te verbeter. Dit sal ’n gesonde omgewing vir gemeenskappe skenk. Ons wil ook die weermag, wat die afgelope tyd ingewillig het om die Vaalrivier se infrastruktuur te beskerm, bedank.





House Chair, it is our responsibility in this Sixth Parliament to ensure that accountability becomes the new norm in government.

Consequence management is absent at senior level. Within the context of the Division of Revenue Act, accountability includes compliance, and to report on and evaluate performance programmes.



It is clear that the National Health Insurance has become a special project for the ANC. The conditions under which patients receive treatment has deteriorated over time. Health services need to get more attention and more funding, and universal health care must be part of our country’s vision. We must fix what is not working in the Health Department before transferring money to another health state-owned entity, SOE, as envisaged by the ANC.



No consequence management exists or is applied in current SOEs or in national and provincial departments. We cannot use the word savings. We must call it underspending. Call it what it is! We do not support the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mrs M R MOHLALA: House Chair, the Division of Revenue Bill in its current form is based on misguided assumptions influenced by international evidence without addressing South Africa’s systematic structural problems that sustained apartheid spatial planning for the longest time. We know this because the Division of Revenue Bill is based on the same ideology as that of the Growth, Employment and Redistribution, Gear; the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for SA, AsgiSA; and the failed National Development Plan, NDP. What are these assumptions?



Firstly, municipalities have the capacity to collect revenue efficiently. The reality is that since 1994 when the ANC agreed to pay large severance packages to retiring municipal employees, the majority of municipalities were left with skeleton staffs and have never recovered. Today, the majority of municipalities cannot collect revenue;



Secondly, people will start paying for services. This has not happened for two reasons. One, our people are unemployed and, two, the move towards treating basic services like water and electricity as profit-making services was driven by greed and a misguided principle of neoliberal policies from the Treasury;



Thirdly, there was an assumption that people will be employed and municipalities will benefit from a localised economy. This has not happened. In fact, there is no economic activities happening in municipalities; and



Lastly, another gross incorrect assumption was that rural areas will be developed into semiurban areas. The opposite happened. Too much attention is given to urban areas.



This is the reality, and we know that these assumptions are incorrect because out of all municipalities, more than 30% of them rely on transfers from the Division of Revenue more than their own revenue. If we remove metros and big municipalities like Polokwane, Mbombela, Rustenburg and others, this figure goes up to well over 50%.



All over the world it is the combination of two things that kick- starts the economy in a manner that transforms the lives of the people and grows the economy. Industrial policy that is based on the protection of infant industries in a manner that promotes localisation ... When you are building localised industries, municipalities must be at the centre of building basic infrastructure; building roads; providing water, sanitation and recreational facilities; and attracting people to come and work in these areas.



However, the proposed Division of Revenue Bill does not picture a situation whereby the economy will be localised and municipalities will play an important role in building infrastructure to support the economy. There are no believable plans to raise revenue for municipalities. There are no believable plans to build capacity for municipalities through the Division of Revenue Bill



allocation. There are no believable plans to ensure that there is redistribution of resources between the spheres of government. The ruling party does not know what to do with municipalities ... [Interjections.] ... or how to even repurpose useless and dysfunctional provinces to reduce poverty and unemployment, and deliver services. The ruling party has reached a dead end and lacks creativity. The undisputed reality is that if the ruling party continues to allocate less than 9% of the revenue raised nationally, it is continuing with apartheid spatial planning and it will be safe to say that the ANC is practising apartheid spatial planning. [Applause.]



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. The fine balancing act required at this time with the very limited resources we have to ensure and maximise the equitable division of revenue will be something of a fine craft.



Over the past few weeks in this House we adopted recommendations and reports of fiscal review, which the IFP supported. We did so because we will be constructive and we’ll keep a close watch on making sure that government’s fiscal policy and targets are met. Through this Division of Revenue, government must ensure that not only fiscal but also social sustainability is considered.



The phrase that says, the failure to spend is the failure to deliver rings true on the occasion but this time around we need to spend in sectors of our economy which will impact the lives of millions who are unemployed. Our revenue must address the needs and to see social and economic justice becoming a reality.



Our economy must insulate from further economic shocks to safeguard the interests of our people, in particular the poor and most vulnerable. We must ensure that the pressure not only comes from top down but also from bottom up; in that many municipalities are pressurised in their own budgets, and in many instances are indebted and unable to repay their bills.



The public sector wage bill is out of control, top heavy and places far too much pressure on the already constrained budget. We must place caps on both public wage growth and contingent liabilities in SOEs. This is critical if we wish to achieve what this House collectively adopted, and that is our commitment to fiscal sustainability.



Corruption, irregular expenditure, and fruitless and wasteful expenditure are true enemies of the state and they must be eradicated from the smallest entities, agencies and all provincial



and national departments. This must be done. Without consequences we will see more of the same. The IFP supports the Division of Revenue. [Applause.]



Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you, hon House Chair. It is very clear that municipalities are the ANC government single biggest failure. No matter if a grant is direct or indirect it fails. Many grants were direct bond and then it was converted in Amendments Bills into direct grants because the municipality or the province could not spend the money and they were underexpenditure. Now, in this Division of Revenue Amendment Bill, we see that even the indirect grants are not being spent. So, what is very clear is that the ANC cannot govern. The failure is with government on all levels and on all levels there is a complete failure.



Where is the underexpenditure of the school infrastructure grant where we need infrastructure, the health facility revitalisation component grant, regional bulk infrastructure grant, underexpenditure; integrated national electrification programme grant, underexpenditure; and municipal system improvement grant, underexpenditure? There is a lack of planning and implementing on all levels of government, there is a lack of skills, there is a lack of competent officials who can deliver the services and there



is a lack of consequence management. People are getting away with wasting, stealing and mismanaging the money.





Ons verwelkom die R241 miljoen wat vir die Vaalrivier intervensie bedoel is. Die vraag is wel, is daar kundigheid om daar projek te stuur. Is daar kundigheid om daardie belangrike krisis aan te spreek?



As ons nie die Vaalrivier red nie, word die meeste van Gauteng se inwonders, die Vrystaat se inwoners en ander aangrensende provinsies se inwoners se watervoorsiening totaal en al bedreig. Ons kan dit nie toelaat nie.



Munisipaliteite faal. Mfuleni is een van daardie voorbeelde. Dit is daardie munisipaliteit and ander munisipaliteite wat veranderwoordelike is vir jare se besoedeling van die Vaalrivier.



Geen voorwaardelike toekenning gaan munisipaliteite red nie. Ons het kleiner munisipaliteit nodig. Ons het effektiewe bestuur nodig. Ons het mense nodig wat die mense wil dien en nie hulle sakke nie. Ons het ’n verantwoordelike regering nodig. [Tuusenwerpsels.]



Definitief nie, agb lid! Ons het dit definitief nie! Die Ouditeur- Generaal se verslag wat vandag ter tafel gelê is, agb lid, wys dat u nie verantwoordelik is nie. Kyk na die onreëlmatige uitgawes.

Kyk na die verkwiste uitgawes.



Wat is die grootse probleem met hierdie verdeling van die billike aandeel? Die salarisrekening van die staat is te hoog. Dit is al waar u werklik kan bestee.





You can’t spend the money of the necessary grants to improve our infrastructure and to create conducive environment for the economy to grow, but you can spend the money on inflated salaries. Let me get to the hon Buthelezi, the chairperson of the committee, the solution is not with outstanding debt hon member, because there is no money. People are getting poorer and poorer. Businesses can’t perform especially in our rural areas. The solution is no longer there.



We have to create a conducive environment hoping that businesses can create employment so that there can be infrastructure and economic growth. At this stage there is none. Our rural economy



has failed ... and if you think that you will be saved by outstanding debt, you are dreaming big dreams. I thank you.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you House Chair. The native fact of the 2019 adjustments in this Bill is a staggering increase of the budget allocation by R24 billion. This adjustment allocation is mainly due to the additional financial support to Eskom through the Special Appropriation Bill and to a lesser degree to increases in debt service costs, the contingency reserves and provisional allocations.



The increase in budget deficit debt levels which are estimated to increase from R3 trillion to R4,5 trillion over the medium-term and debt service costs as well as the increased bailouts to state- owned enterprise, SOEs, particularly Eskom, will result in less being spent on social needs such as education and health. This I am sure we all agree that it is unacceptable.



The ACDP shares the views expressed by many that the country is facing a debt trap. We have said that hard decisions are necessary to save the economy and prevent the country from going over the fiscal cliff. The National Treasury has given the country an opportunity that should not be squandered with its Discussion



Paper on broad range of economic reforms required t kick-start economic growth. If these are implemented with speed and care, we, the ACDP, believe that they can lay the basis for much faster inclusive economic growth.



As far as this Bill is concerned, we are fully aware of the severe challenges facing the municipalities as highlighted by the speakers and the Auditor-General. Whilst municipalities must get their houses in order, it is possibly the time to revisit the equitable share determination for municipalities. We are pleased that the National Treasury is looking into this, however, no timeframe has been given to revise that formula.



In addition, the nonpayment of municipalities of bulk water and electricity is placing an intolerable burden on these service providers. Consideration should be given to withholding parts of the full equitable share ... [Inaudible.] ... that are due to be paid now to municipalities on 02 December that will send a very strong message to municipalities. The ACDP also shares concerns expressed by other members about the reductions of various grants set out in the Bill including the school infrastructure grant largely due to under spending. This, of course, is unacceptable.



In our view, the National Treasury needs to strengthen the oversight of those conditional grants and intervene in those provinces that are underresourced or undercapacitated. The same applies to the underspending at the local government level,  R445,5 million under spending on those grants. Again, the National

Treasury and Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs must intervene to assist those local municipalities that are struggling because that is where service delivery is rendered and it is the most important. I thank you.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair and hon members, despite the tough fiscal environment of stagnant economic growth, it is the responsibility of this House as it comes to this Division of Revenue Amendment Bill, to ensure that reductions in the budget related more to curbing the rate which budgets were growing rather than on cutting on essential expenditure. By this I mean we want to highlight that we are still not happy or we are concerned about the cutting of the important grants such as the basic school infrastructure grant, which are important for the infrastructure needs of the different schools around the country.



Much has been said about the failure of municipalities to pay their Eskom debt over the past few months without looking at the



picture holistically. Yes, some of the smaller municipalities are their own worse enemies sometimes. Many poor municipalities are bloated ... [Inaudible.] ... as a result, funds originally earmarked for service delivery end up being used for compensation of employees. In addition, it is concerning that despite capacity support programmes to some of these municipalities extended by government over the years, they still plead a lack of capacity as a result there are number of underexpenditure on grants and poor performance on issues.



On the flip side of the coin, this House has to deal with the debt that many municipalities are owed by government departments.

During his 2018 Budget Speech in the National Assembly the Minister of Finance said that the failure by government to pay municipalities for services rendered threat to municipal financial stability and made a commitment to remedy the situation. However, more than a year after the statement was made national and provincial government departments still owes some of the country’s struggling municipalities over R9 billion as you are aware.



In the very same speech, the Minister stated that National Treasury director-general had instructed that all government departments and public institutions to pay suppliers on time or be



charged with financial conduct. Despite this instruction - as you are aware - national and provincial departments currently owes South African small businesses over R7,1 billion in unpaid invoices older than 30 days.



I am not sure how this government then intends to achieve its gross targets given the fact that small businesses are an important engine for economic growth. House Chair, we want to repeat a point we made while we were on the election campaign trail that the dire nature of the country’s finances requires the development of fiscal rules. The fiscal rules will help us to impose a long lasting constraint on fiscal policy through numerical limits on budgetary aggregates. These rules entail budget balance rules, debt rules, expenditure rules and revenue rules. Furthermore, through these rules we will also be able to develop fiscal responsibility laws, independent monitoring bodies as well as law enforcement procedures. I cannot over emphasise the importance of these step.



The consequences of us leaving this important task of ensuring intergenerational fiscal equity to the political wing of government ... [Time expired.] ... are too ghastly to contemplate.





Siyabulela. Oowu mama uyalingxamela eli xesha xa indim kodwa ubumncedile la mfana ebe lapha phambi kwam.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Hayi kudala kubomvu apho kuwe, nawe ndikuncedile. Suka apho. [Kwahlekwa.]



Mr S N AUGUST: House Chairperson, the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill seeks to align state spending with the nation’s priorities. It is about determining equitable slices of the revenue pie for national, provincial and local departments to maximise the impact of state spending on improving the lives of the people and the environment in which they live. In a constraint economy, once budget divisions are agreed upon, the next step is to ensure that each rand allocated is appropriately spent.



The number one tool for holding those who hold the pearls strings at all levels of government accountable is transparency. The more government business is open to scrutiny, the less space for misspending and corruption. Just earlier, the Auditor-General announced that South Africa’s national and provincial government has an irregular expenditure that has grown to R62 billion from R51 billion, with further material losses of R2,8 billion.



With this disappointing audit results, it is time to stop talking and institute better systems of accountability and transparency. Such systems help us emerge stronger from our economic crisis and contribute to avoiding recurrences in future. Good calls on the department to put systems in place to prevent and detect corruption. This can be done by putting in reactive controls, corrective controls, internal prevention controls and supply chain management controls.



We talk about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, and therefore we must use technologies like blockchain in supply chain management systems. Good also calls on government departments to implement contract and consequence management systems. Those responsible for irregular expenditure must face the consequences for their actions and must be held accountable. Good pleads with government department to ensure that there is broad agreement with regard to where and how money should be spent, and the principles of advance economic social environmental and spatial justice should underpin all actual spending. Good supports the municipalities infrastructure grant, the National Health Insurance indirect grant and the school infrastructure backlog grant, amongst others. In conclusion, I would like to say that Good supports the Bill. Thank you.





Moh E D PETERS: Modulasetulo ...





 ... Ministers and hon members, like the Chairperson indicated, the ANC supports the Division of Revenue Bill. Hon members, the majority of South African population depends on public health facilities for their wellbeing. According to the General Household Survey, seven in every 10 households use public health facilities rather than private hospitals. The survey further shows that in a population of over 56 million, only 16,9% of South Africans had medical aid in 2017. Twenty five percent of households with medical aid are concentrated in Gauteng and the Western Cape.

Limpopo province has the lowest rate of medical coverage of 8,3%, followed by the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal at 9,9% and 12,6% respectively. This is a direct reflection of a deep unequal society and it is against this context that as the ANC we support the drive for the implementation of the National Health Insurance. We cannot in this day and age allow for inequality of access to quality health services.



To continue, the ANC says that good quality health services for all is non-negotiable. The changes and interventions in the



Division of Revenue Bill, amongst others, is 289,3 million that is shifted from the National Health Insurance direct grant, personal services component to the direct National Health Insurance grant for contracting health professionals to enable provinces to pay nurses, doctors and other professionals to create further capacity in health facilities. A total of R89,3 million is rolled over from the procurement of medical equipment and linen, especially for hospitals in Limpopo provinces.



Most of the reductions in the NHI indirect grant come from funds that were not spent in some provinces, and this has no bearing or impact on the roll-out of the NHI. The most recent General Household Survey indicates that the ANC government has made significant progress to give South Africans access to safe drinking water. In 2017, 88,6% of South Africans households had access to piped water. However, more needs to be done for rural communities where 3,7% of the population still fetch water from rivers, from streams, from stagnant water pools, dams and springs.



The recent drought has significantly damaged the economy and threatened our people’s right to safe drinking water. However, we also note that the devastating drought has taught us important



lessons about the value of water and the need of treating water as a precious and scarce resource.



We all know that water and electricity infrastructure development and maintenance is capital intensive. It is for this reason that as Members of Parliament and leaders, we should pay for these services and equally encourage our people to pay for the provision of these services. We need to revise the Masakhane Campaign; to instil a culture of payment for services.



According to SA Local Government Association, Salga, by the end of June 2019, households owed municipalities R118,6 billion.





Re re fa re ntse





But I also want to say to the Minister and MECs of Public Works, it is unacceptable that government departments and their entities should be owing municipalities. And accounting officers and chief financial officer, CFOs, should be held responsible. An amount of R10,3 billion owed by organs of state is no small money. None of them should boast about their performance when one sphere of



government is burdened by their lack of payment for services. But I also want to respond to the hon Wessels, and say that businesses owes municipalities R24,7 billion.





Dit is baie geld wat die ... [Onhoorbaar.] ... werke kan herstel en baie dienste in gemeenskappe verbeter.





Hon members, remember that in terms of the Local Government Fiscal Framework, the size of own revenue to be generated by municipalities is determined by the volumes of water and electricity that is consumed by businesses and nonpoor households. So, nonpayment for these services denies municipalities an opportunity to raise the requisite 70% to fund their budget, resulting in the inability of these municipalities to deliver on the intended objectives.



The municipal disaster recovery grant allocation of R113 million to Ethekwini Metropolitan Municipality and R20,3 million to Ugu District Municipality to repair roads that were damaged by floods in 2017 is appreciated. But also, it is concerning to see reductions from local government indirect grants due to projected



underexpenditure in the regional bulk infrastructure grant, the integrated national electrification programme grant and the municipal systems improvement grant. Local government is at the coalface of service delivery and these reductions will definitely have a negative impact on services at this level.



We are calling on National Treasury and the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to support municipalities in ensuring that they develop plans on how to improve spending at this level. The amendment that to be made in the Division of Revenue Act on school infrastructure backlogs grant is critical to demonstrate the progress that has been made by the ANC government in the education sector. These are critical to reflect the increase in the number of schools provided with improved sanitation from 195 to 717 schools, and water from 177 to

227 schools. Seven hundred million rand was added to this grant in the 2019-20 financial year to make sure that we can address sanitation appropriate for education, which is called safe Infrastructure.



The ANC is equally concerned by the reduction of R40 million of the school infrastructure grant. We saw children writing exams under the scorching heat in this country. This infrastructure



needs to be addressed. We have also seen and heard the MEC saying that is will take us more than 100 years to eradicate the deplorable latrines that we see our children being subjected to in rural areas.



We cannot have a situation where our children here in South Africa are still carrying the burden of segregated apartheid planning in terms of education and allocation of resources. [Time expired.] So, we are saying that we want to make sure this infrastructure is developed ... Thank you, House Chairperson. [Interjections.]



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, the NFP welcomes the report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill tabled here today. Let me at the very outset say that the NFP will support the report tabled here today. One of the reasons for supporting it is that the committee itself has been very vocal.



It has been deliberating on this issue and it has ensured that we put in a clause there that there must be consequence management, but more importantly that there has to be periodic reporting to the committee so that we can deal with the matter appropriately at



the time to ensure that there is consequence management and there is either necessary action that has been taken over.



I hear every single party in this House talk about corruption – every one of them! However, you find one thing which is strange: Not a single one of them talk about what I have repeatedly been drawing the attention of this House to – the corruption of the constituency allowances that you give political parties, where they don’t have constituency office, there is no stuff and there is nothing happening there, but nobody is willing to do anything about it. Why - because, we are benefitting from it.



So, it is really a serious problem. When corruption benefits you, we don’t want to talk about it. When it doesn’t benefit you, then we are making an issue about. But, I think it is matter.



The issues of grants in my understanding are being created because there are relevant structures that are not spending their money.

They are not performing. As a result, you have to create these grants. But, what do these things do in essence while we appreciate that we are distributing those resources.



Let us not forget that you are doing it at the expense of some project that is not being completed. What is very important is to deal with the inefficiency of the departments that are not spending their money appropriately. One good example is economic development in South Africa depends on infrastructure development. Year in and year out, we are underspending in terms of infrastructure development. That, I think, is one of the main issues that we need to look at.



I think one of the solutions to many of these municipalities who are owed a lot of money is to put in prepaid water meters, put in prepaid electricity meters so that people are paying you in advance. Maybe that’s one of the real ways to go.



More importantly, I think, we should try to endeavour to get every municipality at some stage to have its own development to become self-sufficient. We need to take industry to these municipalities, create businesses, and create industry there so that they can become self-sufficient. They cannot be relying on national government for resources continuously.



Let me also admit that while we talk about9% of resources going to local government and municipalities, the corruption level at local



municipalities in getting value for money is extremely high. That is where Salga is failing us in being able to do. However, my time is up. The NFP supports this report that is table here. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, there have been some important contributions from other members in this debate and, in particular, I think hon Swart made a good proposal; and so did Mr Kwankwa about introducing fiscal rules. I thank them for those contributions.



However, the two ANC speakers, hon Buthelezi and hon Peters, tried to mount a defence of this budget and this division of revenue and I will deal with the defence in a second. Before I do, I just want to make a point that the one person who isn’t here to defend his own division of revenue is the Minister. I think that is quite a shocking and inexcusable absence.



He has rolled out the Deputy Minister, Dr Masondo, to come and defend this division of revenue, but he was here to table it. He has proposed these cuts to basic services and now he is not here to defend it. That is not on!



Now, if we come to hon Buthelezi speech, he says that this division of revenue is pro-poor and distributive. Hon Peters says that the ANC remains completely committed to improving basic health care for the poor and the implementation of the NHI.



I will never say that anyone is deliberately misleading the House because the Chairperson would rule me out of order, but I do think that we should just appreciate the evidence and hon members can make their decision for themselves about whether any misleading has taken place.



The fact is that this budget – this division of revenue - proposes deep and very painful cuts to the basic services on which the poor people critically rely everyday, and which the public at large depend. For that reason, the DA cannot and will not support any division of revenue that cuts basic services to the poor people in order to move money from those basic services to fund zombie

state-owned entities and in order to fund a bloated public wage bill. [Applause.]



I want to ask a genuine question to the ANC and I invite Dr Masondo to answer it when he has the opportunity: How do you justify subsidising air travel for the middle class by continuing



to bail out SA Airways and SA Express at the cost of basic services to the public and to the poor people in particular? [Interjections.] How do you justify it? Please come here and give us some justification, sir.



Business class passengers sipping frank champagne on the way to Washington or London are being subsidised by bus drivers from Mitchells Plein. That is unacceptable and unethical. It is not just bad policy; it is mad policy. It is insane and indefensible. So, let the record show today that the party that claims to the mental of being pro-poor, as Mr Buthelezi said, is cutting budgets meant for basic services to the poor people.



It is the DA that is unequivocally the party protecting basic services; ... [Applause.] ... protecting hospitals; protecting clinics, Minister - as much as you scream and shout, it is true; protecting schools; protecting teachers; and protecting the poor people.



So, where are the ANC cutting? A hundred and twelve million rands from the Department of Health; R350 million from the NHI shows you how much the ANC cares about that; R43 million from Cervical Cancer Vaccination Programme; R40 million from Schools



infrastructure programme; R250 million from the Electrification Grant that is meant for rolling out new electrification in previously unserved communities.



If that is where they are cutting, where are they spending? An extra R33 billion to Eskom; R9 billion in debt write-off to SA Airways; and more bailouts for SA Broadcasting Corporation, Denel and Alexkor on the horizon.



Today, Minister Gordhan says that he agrees with Minister Mboweni that there should be no more money for SA Airways. Well, that’s a good step in the right direction. But, frankly, it is a bit rich to say that after government has already committed to R9 billion in debt forgiveness just a few weeks ago in the MTBPS. If you mean it, then shut down SA Express immediately! [Applause.] Put SA Airways into business rescue and stir down the unions in the strike.



Let’s be clear, we have got to get spending and debt out of control. At the moment, it is out of control. It is absolutely right that the Minister cuts expenditure, and he needs to cut more. However, he must cut from zombie SOEs, and he must cut from bloated public wage bill. He must not cut from direct basic



services to the poor people. That is why it is wrong what this division of revenue is doing and we will not support it. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Chairperson, ...





...         mhlawumbi masiqale ngezinto zokuqala ezithi ...



English: 18:55


... the ANC supports the 2019 Division of Revenue Amendment Bill because it meets the litmus test through the protection of social spending, especially toward education and health. This protection of social spending is achieved at the bedrock of slow economic growth and the shrinking of fiscal resources. The ANC-led government through this Division of Revenue Amendment Bill recognises the need to accelerate the narrowing of the budget deficit and the stabilisation of government debt.



Chairperson, the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill sets a platform for future accelerated growth. Moreover, this new dawn growth is based on the need to employment, improve government, increase investment, stabilise SOEs and manage the Wage Bill. The



government as mandated by the ANC 54th National Conference has the responsibility to revive economy, to ensure social protection of the poor and vulnerable in our society.



We want to seize the opportunity and invite all of the society and fellow South Africans across political affiliations to join in this effort at this moment of hope and this new dawn.










Chairperson, it is unfortunate that you would have political parties which do not have any clue of where do we want to take South Africa to. They do not have any clue of what is it that the national democratic society is. Parties like the DA and the EFFPlus, I am deliberately saying EFFPlus. [Interjections.] The DA as we speak now has reached a ceiling. They have no issues to raise. Their worry as we speak now is that Herman Mashaba is on his way out on 27 November. [Interjections.] They should be busy lobbying other parties now as to who is going to take charge.

Worse after ...



... begqiba ukuthuka abantu bakuthi bebabiza ngeengcuka.





Now, they are just in disarray towards ... [Interjections.]



Mr T W MHLONGO: Talk about the budget.



Mr Z MLENZANA: Let me tell you. They are in disarray towards the national democratic society. In the journey of reducing the national debt and the budget deficit, the economy must be revived. All three spheres of government must work together with business and other relevant stakeholders to provide and enable an environment for faster and more inclusive economic growth.



Chairperson, I see some members come here and grandstand. [Interjections.] Some members were grandstanding here taking the pain of people from Emfuleni Municipality as if they love them. We know that they do not love them because the polluters are their friends. The polluters there are big businesses, which are their friends. [Interjections.] It’s just that when we talk of a South Africa ...



Kule meko iyiyo ngoku ...





We don’t want to behave like them where we see South Africa ...





... ise lilizwe labamhlophe nabantsundu becalu-calulana. Kwimibutho yabo ngaphakathi kukho abo bahlalele ukuza kuqhwaba izandla. Ayikho enye into abayenzayo ngaphandle kwaloo nto. Eyona nto abayenziwayo yeyokuba bayasetyenziswa babe abantu babo phaya ezantsi bengcikivwa bexhatshazwa ngabo aba bantu babane bebaqhwabela izandla. Jonga le meko bahleli kuyo ngoku. Bajonge ukuba bahleli njani apha? Baphi abantu bakuthi? Baze apha ukusixelela...





... now when this Division of Revenue Bill is beginning to address inequalities. [Interjections.]





Kungona siqala ukubona thina into yokuba...





...Bill beginning now to address the very inequalities. This Bill as we speak now is equity in action. [Interjections.] This Bill as we speak now, it is the one we have been seeing all along. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please take your seat, hon Mlenzana. Why are you rising, hon member? Order! Hon April, please take your seat.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: I wonder if you will take a question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mlenzana, are you ready to take a question?



Mr Z MLENZANA: Yes, I am ready. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You can stand hon Mlenzana and wait for your question.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: You claim that this budget decreases inequality. How does it decrease inequality to subsidise business



class passengers on SAA with a salary of a bus driver from Mitchells Plain? [Interjections.]



Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, I think we have to understand here. It’s a pity ...





... aba bantu abahlali nasezikomitini. [Welewele.]





They are just coming here to howl.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon Mhlongo, please your member asked the question. Let him respond. Why do you make noise now? Continue hon Mlenzana.



Mr Z MLENZANA: This question that he has asked it’s a sign of lack of understanding. [Interjections.] Here what this Bill does, it takes money not reduce or cut it.



We are going towards the budget day in February and we are talking of entities and departments, which have not spent the money.



[Interjections.] So, we are taking this money because it has not been spent. [Interjections.] Let me continue.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, hon members. Order!         Continue, hon Mlenzana.



Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, before my time expires I want to appeal to South Africans, particularly the local municipality level. Let me start with Joe Gqabi Municipality.





Njengoko sisazi ukuba uMasipala wesiThili iJoe Gqabi uye wehlelwa sisithwakumbe sentlekele, siye sabeka bucala imali engange-

R67 million eza kusetyenziswa liphondo ukuqinisekisa ukuba abantu baseJoe Gqabi baphila ubomi obungcono. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Xa siphehlelela lo Mthetho oYilwayo siyaqinisekisa siyi-ANC ukuba siya kuzifezekisa izithembiso zethu kuni mhla sasinicela ukuba nisivotele.





The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you House Chairperson and hon members for this robust debate. The Minister is not here because he is representing the President at the G20 meeting.

Unfortunately, both the President and the Minister aren’t the holy spirit, they can’t be everywhere at the same time. [Applause.]



This debate takes place against the backdrop of a very difficult situation and significant ... [Interjections.]



Mr S N SWART: On a point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Masondo, please take your seat. Hon Swart, why are you rising?



Mr S N SWART: I find that comment absolutely disgraceful ... [Interjections.] ... that he is referring to the President as the holly spirit. I would ask that the hon Deputy Minister withdraw that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Noted. You can continue hon Masondo. There is no point of order in hon Swart’s point.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: I meant they are not omnipresent – they can’t be everywhere at the same time. This debate ... as I



said ... takes place in a very difficult economic situation and under very significant constrained fiscal outlook in the midst of high unemployment and high levels of inequality.



The Division of Revenue Act is a powerful tool for redistribution. It takes revenue raised primarily from taxes collected in the core urban areas and reallocates resources to spend on delivery for public services across our country particularly in rural areas. It provides for schools, clinics, roads and basic services in deep rural areas, informal settlements, townships and suburbs in our growing cities.



The Division of Revenue Act recognises the uneven development of our country. The rural parts of our country continue to be much poorer and as a result, the division of revenue allocation allocates more per capita to rural provinces. It also allocates grants for infrastructure based on infrastructure backlogs for service delivery in different parts of our country.



The Bill before the House today amends some of the allocations in the Division of Revenue Act but it does not alter the contours of the redistribution achieved through the Act. The Bill contains



several relatively small and mainly administrative changes to the Division of Revenue Act.



Funds are shifted between direct and indirect grants between provinces and municipalities to ease the implementation of some of the projects. Funds on projects that are anticipated to underspend are reduced thereby reducing the need for government to borrow money that is likely to go unspent.



Allocations are reprioritised to relieve pressure in some of the critical areas such as hiring critical staff in the health sector. The nature of these adjustments reflects a government that is responsive to change and also prudent in how we manage public resources. The fact that there are fewer changes in this amendment Bill reflects that government is sticking to the plans that we laid in the budget that we tabled in February thereby providing stability and predictability in the transfers to the provinces and municipalities.



The Minister of Finance, in tabling the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, in this august House on 30th August, highlighted the growing debt. Our debt now is R3,1 trillion and is projected to grow to R4,5 trillion in 2020. The root causes of this debt is



the low economic growth leading to low revenue, wage bill, the recapitalisation of the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, and the contingent liabilities are amongst other causes of this debt.



The low economic growth has a significant impact on the fiscus because it reduces our ability to generate revenue. The debt service costs, the interest that we pay on our debt, wage bill, recapitalisation of the SOEs have shifted our expenditure away from infrastructure and other needs of our people.



We are one notch towards a junk status by the Moody’s rating agency. If we continue on this fiscal and economic trajectory, we will be further downgraded to a junk status. The junk status will increase our payment on this debt, which is a big problem.

Therefore, our funding shortfalls on imported expenditure items such as infrastructure and learner support material will increase. The corporates operating in South Africa will also have to pay high interest rates thus making it difficult for them to retain and increase investment which will lead to the decline with regard to revenue as well as job losses.



If we continue on this unsustainable fiscal path, which is based on borrowing to finance the wage bill, bailouts of SOEs, we will



not be able to provide the services that the people have elected us for.



We don’t have to wait anymore before we are in trouble. Procrastination of implementation of concrete policy programmes and projects is no longer acceptable under these conditions.

Dealing with the current unsustainable debt levels will require collective efforts, including sacrifices by all of us; labour, business, communities and ourselves as public representatives.



All spheres of the government need to play their part in making sure that we grow the economy, we reduce the wage bill and resolve the problems besetting the SOEs. This will mean, amongst other things, looking at the wage bill, SOEs, for instance, we should not just look at the national government but we should look at all spheres of government; local governments and the provincial governments. In other words, we should look at entities at the provincial government as well as local government. [Time expired.]

... It is for this reason that we have been visiting municipalities to basically deal with all these challenges, from wage bill, as well as the SOEs at the local level and municipality level. Thank you House Chairperson. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you very much hon members, the five minute is over. Hon Macpherson, what is your problem now? What’s the gesture?



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry House Chairperson, I was just concerned that the hon Koornhof has prestic under his shoes.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Oh, okay. It is between the two of you. Hon members, I had that some of you were complaining about the absence of members. According to Rule 111, at least four members can call for a division as long as they support it.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Bill accordingly read a second time.






There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Mr M R MASHEGO: On a point of order, House Chairperson. I want to ask whether DA has got only four white people [Inaudible.] where are the others?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, please take your seat, that’s not a point of order. Hon member, take [Interjections.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Okay, I’m just concerned, it looks like Minister Zulu needs medical attention.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Hill-Lewis, now your time is running.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Alright. Minister Zulu needs some medical attention, someone help her.



Look, Madam Chair, this report ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Order, hon members [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: House Chairperson



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): I’m waiting for that one first, I’ll recognise you.



Hon members, please let’s.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): I’m aware, hon Zulu. I just want our members to be in order.



Hon members!



Hon Zulu, I recognise you for your point of order. You can sit, hon Hill-Lewis.



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think he really needs to sit because it is unacceptable for the member to use that platform and say at that platform that I need medical attention.












The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The member must explain what does he mean, I need medical attention. The member must withdraw because I don’t, absolutely don’t need no medical attention. What I need is respect from that young man, who I also respect by the way. So, he can’t stand here and say that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Okay, hon member. Thank you very much. I didn’t hear that.



Hon Hill-Lewis please stand. Did you say that?






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Hill-Lewis, will you please withdraw.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: I withdraw.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you very much. Continue.



Prince M G BUTHELEZI: On a point of order, House Chair. I was saying that it can’t be acceptable that if we react ... when people are misbehaving, that we should imitate them. Because then when we speak and try them, it’s a question of the pot calling the kettle black. I don’t see why they should disregard your orders. I just feel ashamed of that because these people who are trying chaos by breaking the quorum, let them do that but let’s not mimic them. I don’t that is really [Applause.] [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you. Hon Mazzone, are you still on? Okay, thank you. Hon Hill-Lewis.



Declarations of Vote:


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, this is a rather uncontroversial report that we have before us. It was agreed to – I think – unanimously, perhaps the EFF objected in the committee.



But it is a very good reflection on the committee’s deliberations on the state of the National Treasury and the entities that report to it. And in the time that I have I just want to focus on three of them: the SA Revenue Service, Sars, the SA Reserve Bank, SARB, and the Public Investment Corporation, PIC.



Firstly, Sars has undergone a terrible last few years, with suffering the effects of state capture; because of politically motivated cadre deployment to the management of that institution. So, now we hear lots of ANC speakers bemoaning what has happened at Sars, forgetting that it happened on their and on their instruction.



But, nevertheless, Sars is now turning itself around and we have huge confidence in the ability of Commissioner Kieswetter to turn



that organisation around and restore it to the organisation of impeccable and unimpeachable integrity that it was just a few short years ago. It is a reminder of how quickly our democratic institutions can be destroyed by cadre deployment and how much we must protect them.



Secondly, the SA Reserve Bank has come under relentless attack from the ANC in its election manifesto and by the EFF, which has been pushing for the nationalisation of that bank and we are pleased that the committee has expressed its support for the independence of the reserve bank and the rejection of attempts to nationalise it. And I’m afraid I’ve run out of time.



Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Ms M R MOHLALA: House Chair, the EFF rejects the Standing Committee on Finance Budgetary Review and Recommendation, BRR, Report.



This afternoon, the Auditor-General, AG, just announced that irregular expenditure has increased to R62,6 billion.



It is the job of the Standing Committee on Finance to ensure that the Treasury and the Minister of Finance do their job to ensure that we do not see figures like we just saw this afternoon.



But reality is that Parliament has no capacity to properly do oversight over the Treasury and the Minister of Finance. Instead, the standing committee works like Minister’s parliamentary desk.



We raised this in the Fifth Parliament. There’s too much emphasis


... routine legislation, some rushed while misconduct, corruption and disregard for the law goes unnoticed.



Money was stolen during the implementation of the Integrated Financial Management, the famous IFMS; but no one has been arrested despite damning forensic report.



People were moved from Sars to Treasury by former Minister Pravin Gordhan without following any processes and were paid big salaries and they continue to get paid. People are appointed without following tender processes and we are told they are the only one qualified to do the work.



Katherine Gibson was appointed as the consultant and paraded here in Parliament as the public servant when she was not; and paid a lot of money just because of a personal relationship with one of the Deputy Director-General, DDG, Ismail Momoniat.



Some white consultant from London was appointed to write a report on transformation. To this day, people from Venda are still waiting for their pension which the Treasury said they must be paid, but the Treasury and the Minister refuse to pay. [Interjections.]



What we have here is the department that operates like it’s above the law [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, it’s a tough pill to swallow when the AG finds errors at the department responsible for co- ordination of finances of all government departments. As the custodian of finance for the entire government, it must lead by example. It cannot be that preparations of performance reports and financial statements are done incorrectly and flagged by AG.



If we were to strive for excellence in financial management, it’s best that we start with this department.



It baffles me that disregard for legislation was also cited by AG. If we were to encourage other to adhere to the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and the Municipal Financial Management Act, MFMA, yet the Department of Finance is still finding its feet and wrapping its head around its own legislation; then I believe our trying times will last a little longer.



The IFP hopes and believes that the Minister is able to walk his talk and we are confident that if finance works, all other department will get to work.



The IFP supports the report and will closely monitor the implementation of the recommendations made in this report. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, this is an accurate report reflecting what is happening in National Treasury and with its entities and we support the observations and the recommendations, contained in this report. It is concerning that National Treasury and the entities themselves do not comply with laws and regulations and that is findings by the Auditor General. If one looks at the regression from previous financial year and the fact that very few of the entities and the department, themselves could obtain clean



audit. That is concerning as National Treasury is the department that should ensure that other departments and municipalities, especially our metropolitan municipalities comply with laws and regulations.



We need an effective revenue collector free from mismanagement. One thing that is an observation and recommendation in this report is the lack of an independent tax ombudsman. At this stage the tax ombudsman is dependent on the revenue collector on South African Revenue Service, SARS, for its budget and for everything it needs to do its work. That is an area that should be addressed by us, as the Legislature we shouldn’t get independent tax ombudsman. It’s completely unacceptable that, that is not the currently.



It’s also unacceptable that it was allowed by the ANC-led government that institutions such as the Public Investment Co- operation were allowed to be looted, where there is mismanagement, where they were allowed to be exploited and we do welcome the actions now taken by the new PIC Board where there is action taken to recover the lost monies and that is welcomed. I thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the NFP welcomes the report of the Standing Committee on Finance tabled here today. Yes, indeed the



NFP will support the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, of Standing Committee tabled here. Whilst this National Treasury receives R29,7 billion, only managed to achieve 113 of the 139 performance targets. What is concerning is that this department which is the custodian of all funds has not achieved its performance target in financial accounting, particularly in the supply chain management, once again.



South African Revenue Service, SARS, only collected R1,287 trillion against an estimate of an estimate of R1,3 trillion. National Treasury and its entities with finance portfolio incurred R82 million in fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Irregular expenditure increased to R1 billion with National Treasury being the biggest contributor with R466 million and SARS R454 million, it’s a disgrace that 53% of the finance portfolio had findings as a result of uncompetitive and unfair procurement, clearly as a bridge of the Public Finance Management Act.



Now, the integrated financial management system is still not being achieved, despite hundreds of millions of rands being spent on it and we believe that, that matter needs to be expedited. Now, the Auditor General is recommending consequence management despite amendments to the Auditor General and in terms of what is entitled



to do in terms of consequence management; it’s not yielding any results.



There appears to be no oversight on National Treasury and that appears to be another challenge. My time is running out, the NFP supports this report, but we call for consequence management and ensure that the committee that is the Standing Committee in Appropriation receives report timeously on the action that is being taken, particularly with Treasury not complying with Public Finance Management Act. Thank you, we support.





Nks P ABRAHAMS: Sihlalo weNdlu, njengeKomiti eSisigxina yeSebe lezeMali yoHlaziyo loHlahlo lwabiwo-mali neziNdululo kunye namajelo alo kubaluleke kakhulu ekukhuseleni imeko yezemali eMzantsi Afrika. Isahluko se-13 kuMgaqo-siseko welizwe siyaligunyazisa isebe ukuba kungabikho mfihlo kwaye kuphendulwe ngempatho-mali efanelekileyo kuba zimali zabantu. Loo nto inyanzelisa ukuba kubekho impatho entle, konyuke uphuhliso, uqoqosho lubeluhle, norhulumento olungcono. Nangaphezulu kwezinto zonke, injongo kukuphucula umgangatho wokuphila wommi wonke waseMzantsi Afrika.



Ikhona indima ebonakalayo kwiziphakamiso zethutyana zikarhulumente kaGalel’ebhayini owavula umlomo wonke ubani kwatsho kwakhonya noomofu. [Kwahlekwa.] Siyaqhuba ngokululeka abathe baphosisa ukuze kukhule ukuwuthemba umbuso, kunyuke utyalo-mali noqoqosho lukhule. UKhongolose uyahlupheka kuba inkcitho engenaziqhamo yande ukusuka kuma-R71 million kunya-kamali odlulileyo yaya kuthi ga kuma-

R82 million kulo nyaka-mali. Ingxenye yale nkcitho yenziwe apha esebeni nakwi-Arhente yeeNkonzo zeRhafu.



ISebe lezeMali kufanele ukuba liqaphele ukucuthwa kwamatyala ombuso ukuze alungelelane nemali eyenziwa ngurhulumente kwi-GDP. Enye indlela yokuhlumisa kukwakhiwa ngokutsha kwejelo lombane ukucutha umngcipheko oza no-Eskom kuqoqosho nakwindleko zoluntu ngokubanzi. Isebe lifuna ukuhlaziya nokukhulisa uqoqosho kuquka nokwakha ngokutsha amacandelo anamashishini karhulumente.



I-ANC ihlaba ikhwelo kubaphathiswa bamasebe nabo bonke abasemagunyeni kuquka iSebe lokuCeba, ukuPhonononga nokuVavanya ukuba badlale indima ebonakalayo kwaye baqinisekise nokuba iingcebiso zomphicothi-zincwadi ziyaphuhliswa. I-ANC iyayixhasa le ngxelo yeSebe lezeMali.



Question put.



Agreed to.



The House adjourned at 19:42.