Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 18 Jun 2015
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
THURSDAY, 18 JUNE 2015
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PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the only item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the President.
Members may press the “talk” button on their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question.
The first Question was asked by hon N R Bhengu.
The hon, the President. [Applause.]
Nksz S M KHAWULA: Somlomo ohloniphekile, kancane nje ngane yakwethu, asixabani.
USOMLOMO: Ngicela uMongameli ake ahlale phansi kancane. Khuluma-ke mama, angikwazi nokuthi ufuna ukukhuluma ngani.
Nksz S M KHAWULA: Kulungile-ke ngiyabonga-ke; ngibonga ukuhlonipha kwakho, Somlomo omuhle. Nawe Mongameli wethu lapha eNingizimu Afrika ngibonga ukuthi uyasihlonipha uhlale phansi uma sikucela.
Bengifuna ukuzwa la njengomuntu osuka le kude KwaZulu-Natali, emaphepheni la angiboni la kuvela khona ukuthi uMongameli, njengoba sila ePhalamende sihloniphekile, nawe usihlonipha kanjalo nathi sikuhlonipha ukuthi uthini ngale mali yaseNkandla? Uthi uzoyikhokha nini imali yentela yabantu ... [Ubuwelewele.]
USOMLOMO: Cha, cha, cha, mama uKhawula, cha ...
Nksz M KHAWULA: ... ngoba lo mbuzo uyinkinga, uyabuzwa nempendulo yakhona iyafuneka, kodwa siye singazi ukuthi sizophendula sithini?
Cha, asilwi lapho baba. Esikucelayo nje ukuthi angeke yini kuleyo mpendulo yakho usho nokuthi uyoyikhokha nini le mali ngoba uThuli Madonsela wakuchaza ukuthi uMongameli akakhokhe enye yalezi zimali? Yilokho nje. Ngiyabonga.
USOMLOMO: Mama uKhawula, ngicela uhlale phansi. Akukona ukuhloniphana lokhu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Ms S M KHAWULA: Hon Speaker, excuse me for a moment, we are not fighting.
The SPEAKER: Mr President, please take your seat for a moment. Speak hon member, I don’t even know what you want to talk about.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Okay, thank you; thank you for your respect, hon Speaker. Thank you to the President of South Africa for respecting us when we ask you to sit down.
I wanted to hear this; like a person who is coming from afar, from KwaZulu-Natal, in these papers I don’t see where it says - as we are here in Parliament as hon members, and you respecting us and us respecting you - what is the President saying about the Nkandla money? When is he going to pay back the people’s tax money ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, no, no madam Khawula, no ...
Ms M S KHAWULA: ... because this question is a problem, it is being asked and people want answers, but we normally don’t know how to answer to it?
No, we are not fighting, sir. What we are asking is, would you not in your response tell us when you are going to pay the money because Thuli Madonsela explained that the President must pay back some of the money. That’s the only thing. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Madam Khawula, please take your seat. This is not being respectful.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, on a point of order ...
THE SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi, no ... hon Ndlozi, please take your seat. This session is for Questions to the President. I would like the President to start replying to the Questions ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, Speaker, I’m rising ...
THE SPEAKER: ... as agreed to, and according to the Rules of this House.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, isn’t it ...
THE SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, I am rising on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi. There is no point of order about the fact that we are having Questions to the President.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I submit that you have to hear my point of order, hon Speaker. I am rising on a point of order...
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, the tradition is that we have the business of the day...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... because, you see, hon Speaker, Parliament has been rendered useless by the President.
The SPEAKER: ... and today the President answers Questions.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: The President has rendered our Parliament useless. The President does not take Parliament seriously.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: The President comes here and makes a mockery of our Questions, and he is allowed to go.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Then he comes back again, and we have no guarantee that he will not make a mockery of the Nkandla question.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, if you do not take your seat you will have to leave the House!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: The reality is, we can’t engage in forms of speech that are empty. We can’t engage in forms of accountability that are empty, that are disrespected by the President.
Hon Khawula says the last time the President was here ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... he made a mockery of a very honest process of us asking about Nkandla insofar as the Public Protector’s report is concerned.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, point of order!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: He must respond to that report!
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Chief Whip?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: As long as the President does not speak to that question, he is efficiently undermining anything we are doing in this House.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: And I am rising on a point of order because we must be assisted. He must answer ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you on a point of order.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You won’t recognise me because you don’t want to recognise me. You don’t want to recognise me. I asked, “Recognise me on a point of order”. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I recognise the Chief Whip.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You don’t want to recognise me. So, what must happen?
The SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip? [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, in the same ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: President Zuma does not engage with us. He does not take this Parliament seriously. He does not take the mandate of the people of this country seriously. He must pay back the money. He must tell us the date and time. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Point of order, hon Speaker. Point of order! [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Or else we are just being ridiculed in this House, while the other side laughs as if we are in some Trevor Noah show! [Interjections.] Be ridiculed! This Parliament ... that is where we must start.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker ...
THE SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, you are the Chief Whip of the EFF.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes?
The SPEAKER: Your member is on his feet and you rise. What kind of order is that, hon Shivambu? [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is a point of order that was raised here.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I am not going to allow you people from the EFF to create this kind of disruption this afternoon.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But we want accountability! He must answer us on when he is going to pay back the money.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, there is a Question Paper ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want a decision ...
The SPEAKER: There is a Rule about submitting Questions, and we have the Questions for today on the Question Paper in the front of us.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But he is undermining this ... [Inaudible.] Why doesn’t he answer our questions before he answers these Questions? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Shivambu. Take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want clarity and an answer from him on the question of him paying back the money. That is what I am looking for!
The SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, I have recognised you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is an instruction about him paying the money back and he has not done so.
The SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, the Rule Book that hon Ndlozi is showing specifically prescribes ...
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Point of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: It means we should not speak.
The SPEAKER: I am still listening to a point of order here, hon member. Please proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The Rule of anticipation ...
Mr J S MALEMA: No, hon Speaker, there was a point of order here raised by hon Ndlozi, and you did not recognise it. Why, is his point of order special that it should reign supreme? You must first recognise the first point of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: You are not special. You are not recognised. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: You are not going to command nobody here! The member stood on a point of order ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Hon Malema, order!
An HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.] Just sit!
Mr J S MALEMA: You can’t tell me to sit down.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Did I tell you?
Mr J S MALEMA: You can’t tell me to sit down.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Did I tell you to sit down?
Mr J S MALEMA: I will never sit down. I don’t take instructions from you. And you are not going to be recognised under a special Rule. There is nothing special about you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: There is nothing special about you!
Mr J S MALEMA: This Member of Parliament here ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Malema, there is nothing special about you!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... spoke up first on a point of order. He stood up first on a point of order. He must be recognised! He must be recognised!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, could I ask hon Chief Whip and hon Malema to take their seats.
Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing that gives you power, Chief Whip. What power do you have?
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: Ndlozi stood up first on a point of order ... [Inaudible.] ... be recognised first.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please take your seat!
Mr J S MALEMA: But are you going to recognise us? Ndlozi stood up on a point of order. You don’t recognise him. [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi actually spoke ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Unrecognised and against your wish! Against your wish! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: ... until his own Chief Whip stood up. Please take your seat, hon Malema! [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Ndlozi, you are recognised on a point of order. Stand up. Please. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you. [Laughter.] We are exercising fairness, Speaker. Recognise me on a point of order, and address me as an equal member of this House.
The SPEAKER: Hon Surty ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: So they just rise, bona.
Ms H O MAXON: But Speaker, how do you ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Rona, we don’t rise; we don’t get recognised ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Surty, I recognise you. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: It is not right, here.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Surty is not going to speak because we have hon Ndlozi on the floor who you don’t want to recognise. So tell us, hon Speaker, what do you expect from us? We want to respect you, but you don’t respect us. [Interjections.] You must be fair! You must be fair when chairing these meetings.
The SPEAKER: What I want for all hon members is for them to respect themselves and to respect the House.
I now recognise hon Surty.
Mnu M M DLAMINI: Cha, ngeke kwenzeke lokho! Asizanga ukuzodlala la; sizosebenza! UMongameli egcina ukuza la ufike wadelela leli Phalamende. Sizosebenza la! Ufike walibala ukuhleka esikhundleni sokuthi asitshele ukuthi imali yaseNkandla uzoyikhokha nini! Sizosebenza la, Somlomo, musa ukudlalela kithina! [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M M DLAMINI: No, that is not going to happen! We are not here to play; we are here to work! The last time the President was here, he undermined this Parliament. We are here to work! He was laughing instead of telling us when he is going to pay back the Nkandla money! We are here to work, Speaker, don’t take us for granted! [Interjections.]]
The SPEAKER: Hon Surty ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker ...
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Enye into, yihlazo leli enilithela uMongameli, ningafuni ukuthi aphawule ngezinto okufanele aphawule ngazo emphakathini. Siyacela ukuthi lapho ngaphambili nike nazi ukuthi uMongameli akuyena owenu. Empeleni kwalezi zimali ezibuzwayo azibuzwa yi-EFF; zibuzwa abantu, yiwona mbuzo olokhu uqhamuka.
UThuli Madonsela ulokhu ekushilo ukuthi washo ukuthi ayikhokhwe le mali. Yini nizosenza izilima thina sila ngaphakathi, nithi into ekhona ayikho? Thina asizele la ukuzodlala! Asimzondi uMongameli; yinina enikhombisa ukuzonda uMongameli ngoba anifuni aphendule umbuzo obuzwa yiNingizimu Afrika yonke, izifundazwe eziyisishiyagalolunye, zifuna impendulo. Kodwa kukhona abalokhu bekhuluma ngendlela yokuthi bavikela uMongameli; akuyena owabo uMongameli, oweNingizimu Afrika. YiNingizimu Afrika efuna ukwazi ukuthi imali yayo ibuya nini. [Ubuwelewele.]
Akuliwa noMongameli, akuboshwe abantu-ke ababelethe intuthuko kwakhe, asho ukuthi babedlala ngaye, uma ngabe kunjalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: Another thing is, this is the shame upon the President that you do not want to let him comment on the things that are of public interest. Please know that the President is not only yours. In fact, even the money we are asking about is not questioned by the EFF but the people, this is the same question that keeps popping up.
Thuli Mandonsela has always maintained that she said the money must be paid back. Why are you taking us for fools in here, saying there is no such whereas you know there is? We are not here to play! We don’t hate the President; you are the ones who hate the President because you don’t want him to answer the question that the South Africans are asking, all the nine provinces want answers. But there are those who defend the President; the President is not yours, he is the President of South Africa. The South Africans want to know when their money is going to be paid back. [Interjections.]
We are not fighting with the President, let the people who did the renovations at his place be arrested then, and he must say that they were not truthful to him, if that is the case.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I will briefly suspend the business of the House for the purpose of asking the whips to meet in the Secretary’s office. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: No, but he must pay back the money while they are busy conferring in that Chief Whip’s office.
Mr A M MATLHOKO: Moporesidente a ka se tle go binabina fa pele ga rona, a tshega ka rona. [The President cannot come before us to dance and to laugh at us.]
Business suspended at 14:13 and resumed at 15:52.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we suspended the proceedings to allow the Whips to consult. Before we proceed I will allow them to report on their consultations.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, we met in G26 as the Whips of different political parties. All parties agreed that we are going to continue with the proceedings of today except the EFF which demands that, the President must apologise and that the peace deal they had with the Deputy President be continued. Another burning issue is that of Nkandla. Yes, although all parties raised it, but we agreed that we are going to put that aside so that we deal with the business of today. I thank you, hon Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, section 57(1) of the Constitution sets out very clearly that we make internal arrangement in this House to conduct our business and we have the Rules that give effect to section 57(1). This Parliament is one of the few institutions left in the country that is not being captured by the state, and it is for that reason that we must protect and defend it.
The President has insulted members of this House - the opposition. He has mocked people’s accents. And he also made very light of the very burning issue of Nkandla which still angers many South Africans. And I think this is most unfortunate because it has provoked members of the opposition and their behaviour in the House today.
However, we, as Members of Parliament, must protect and defend this institution. We must use this House to continue to hold President Jacob Zuma and his executive to account. And we do that by using motions in this House, calling for snap debates as we did this week and using the oral question session which is provided for us today.
We certainly want the President to pay back the money, and we will continue through the ad hoc committee and our legal processes to ensure that the President pays back every cent. However, we fought very hard to get the President into this House today and the only people that benefit when this House collapses is the President and the executive. And that is why they laugh every time the House collapses because they get away from being held accountable by the opposition.
We have questions on the Order Paper today; they are in order, we want to put them to President and we want to do the job that the South Africans send the DA here to do, which is to hold the President and his executive accountable. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, hon members, whilst we agree with the gravity of the issues that are being mentioned by the political parties and the need to discuss them in good faith by all of us, there are processes underway where we can have those kinds of discussions. Yesterday we had a very acrimonious debate to decide on the business of today to such an extent that we had to vote for what goes on the Order Paper today. We all agreed that the business of today should be Questions to the President. We are here as the IFP to ensure that we ask follow-up questions to the President. The business of the House must proceed on the basis of today’s Order Paper as printed. Thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, the founding principles of South Africa’s democracy is separation of powers, amongst other things, but also the multiparty system of democracy. We have made an observation, and raised it with the Chief Whips, that it looks like the ruling party is steamrolling this Parliament and using it a rubberstamp of the executive and in some instance even replacing the powers of Parliament and the powers of other institutions of democracy; replacing all of those, the executive investigating itself and taking decisions that are wrong and unconstitutional.
We, as the EFF, disagree with the approach which has been taken by the other parties in terms of this approach. We say that the President must not undermine the Constitution. He must be accountable. He must come up with a clear programme on when he is going to pay back the money. We can’t just sweep that issue under the carpet. We cannot be streamrolled through an undemocratic process and remain party to that. That is why we are saying that the President must give us accountability here in terms of when is he going to pay back the money, not that report of the Minister of Police which says the people of South Africa must spend more money on the enrichment of one person. We can’t be steamrolled towards a commission of corruption by a sitting head of state. We have seen many countries in Africa collapsing because of protecting one individual. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Yes.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We cannot agree that this Parliament be utilised to rubberstamp wrong decisions.
That is why we stand up here to say, we want the President to give us a definite answer on when is he going to pay back the money, because there is a clear instruction and no confusion about that. We need clarity in terms of that. We do not agree with a President who comes here to make mockery of this institution; making mockery and telling jokes about a critical issue of corruption. The people of South Africa are the ones who are funding us here; they pay taxes with an expectation that the money will be used to fund developmental programmes, not the security of one President which is unjustifiably costly.
The people of South Africa are not expecting us to be protecting chickens and cattle in Nkandla. [Interjections.] Our message is very clear: We want to be told as to when is he going to pay that money? And that is what we are standing here to demand. We are neither begging nor asking but demanding, because our people mandated us to demand that the President must payback the money, and he must do so.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, we met this afternoon and seemingly it was clear that there are currents and undercurrents, serious issues that had to be attended to as matter of urgency. And we feel that there should be a meeting to discuss these issues – Nkandla being one of them - and the jesting that happened previously should be discussed. However, His Excellency, the President is here in terms of Rule 111, and also to fulfil his constitutional obligation to account to this Parliament where the executive must account. As the NFP we feel that this prerogative must be used for the President to account and we will have follow-up question that he must respond to.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, it is quite clear that the problem this afternoon is caused by the whole Nkandla situation, if I may put it that way. Colleagues refer to it as a burning issue. In a lighter vain, seeing that the fire pool and the swimming pool is under consideration, we should perhaps not refer to it as a burning issue. But be that as it may, the Constitution asked of us, in section 55 as the legislative arm of government, and it says:
In exercising its legislative power, the National Assembly must provide for mechanisms to ensure that all executive organs of state in the national sphere of government are accountable to it.
Question Time is exactly such an occasion. We cannot complain saying that the President does not come to Parliament to answer questions if we do not give him the opportunity to do so. He must be given an opportunity do so. That does not mean, however, that we are necessarily satisfied with what was said up this point with regard to Nkandla. But today Nkandla is not on the Order Paper.
At the next Question Time the EFF will definitely have a chance in terms of rotation. And I suggest that if there is any party that has not put the Nkandla issue back on the Order Paper do so, in order to ask that question because we all want to know the answer. But today I would suggest that we continue to do our duty in terms of the Constitution, that is, allow the executive to account in order to proceed as soon as possible.
Mrs C DUDLEY: The ACDP has committed to holding the President and his executive accountable, but we are committed to doing so within the Rules of Parliament and through the processes. We do object to being held to ransom by one party. We do object to the attack on multiparty democracy coming from one party in the opposition which stops all other parties from having any say or doing what we need to do in terms of holding the President and his executive to account. Thank you.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker, it is very important that we underline the fact that we are expected to hold the executive, as the opposition, to account. The problem we have today in this House is not caused by Nkandla, but by the President and the party he leads.
The President should be the first person to comply with the provisions of the Constitution. Therefore when an institution empowered by the Constitution says that he must do a certain remedial action, he should have done it because he is not above the law. [Interjections.] He should have done it. No, no, he should have done it.
The fact that he did not do it and the fact that his party is supporting him in refusing to comply with the Constitution is the cause of the problem we are faced with now. In terms of our Constitution, one does not only need to have a majority. You must have a majority that complies with the provisions of the Constitution. Unless the majority leads, guided by the provisions of the Constitution, which is the supreme law of our land, that majority is meaningless and irrelevant.
Therefore, as long as the President does not listen and follow the Constitution, no citizen can be held accountable and compelled to comply with the Constitution. Many citizens will do what they choose to do ... [Applause.] ... because the principle of equality before the law means that the President is the first one to comply with the law. [Applause.] President Mandela would have said: “I am going to court even if I am called by Louie Laid; I must go because I must be the first servant – an obedient servant - of the Constitution.” [Applause.] We can’t have this individual acting like a boss in his own house. This country belongs to all of us, black and white. [Applause.] So everybody must comply with the Constitution. And until that happens, you will not have the collaboration and support of the majority of the people ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: A point of order, Speaker.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: ... that is not going to happen. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: A point of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Zulu, what is the point of order? [Interjections.] Order, order, hon members. Go on, hon Zulu, what is the point of order? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: The point of order is that, you requested the Chief Whips to give us a report from their meeting, but what we are listening ultimately are statements. That is the first point. Secondly, some members of the public did not come here only to listen, but to support their parties. The issue here is that we respect ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, I can’t listen to two points of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: It’s a point of order over her point of order. She’s out of order. Can I be heard?
The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: She’s addressing us and she was not part of the meeting.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: She’s out of order, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: May I raise a point of order over her?
The SPEAKER: No, I’m not allowing you to raise a point of order on top of a point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: But she’s out of order, Madam Speaker. May I raise my point of order ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You’ll tell me that later when I actually ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: When she is finished speaking?
The SPEAKER: Yes.
Mr G A GARDEE: Okay, no problem.l
The SPEAKER: Hon Zulu, can you ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I was respectfully concluding, hon Speaker, that the House Rules do not allow for members of the public to participate. That’s one of the issues that I’m raising and that should be respected. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I will let you speak now, hon Gardee. I would like to take the opportunity to appeal to our guests in the gallery who indeed we are happy to have. However, we would like to point out that members who are sitting in the gallery as our honourable guests are not allowed to participate in the proceedings of the House by clapping or doing anything that is part and parcel of the proceedings of the House. Hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, the collapsing of the House can also, to a greater extent, be attributed to your Office and your Chair. You allow a point of order that is very frivolous from an hon member on that side. I don’t want to call her “ginger” as I hear. [Interjections.] Now she’s says that I’m talking nonsense, Madam Speaker, and you don’t even intervene. This is the kind of ridicule and torture that we get from the ruling party members. Would you please talk to her and tell her to withdraw the word “nonsense” before I proceed?
The SPEAKER: I didn’t hear that. [Interjections.] No, I actually didn’t.
Hon MEMBERS: Ask her. You must ask her.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Are you through, hon Gardee?
Mr G A GARDEE: I can’t be through until she withdraws her insult to me.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee. No, hon Gardee, you are now through.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, maybe you will also rule on that concern that we have over her remarks that I’m speaking “nonsense”. In fact, we shall retaliate with that “nonsense” and insult her even more than she has insulted us. I don’t think that’s what you want, Madam Speaker. However, the fact of the matter is that she’s out of order in what she has been telling the House. Please.
The SPEAKER: Hon Zulu, did you say he was talking “nonsense”?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Speaker, yes, I did and I withdraw.
The SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon members, if there are no other parties who want to give us feedback, I’ll call on the member from the AIC.
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Speaker, there are two issues here - to be or not to be. [Laughter.] It is clear that the executive and the President have got to be held accountable by Parliament; that is clear. However, in our meeting I put it to all of them that it’s important that today we continue with the business of the day as scheduled. Then this burning issue of Nkandla arises. Some may not regard it as a burning issue, but to the people this is a burning issue.
I propose that this Nkandla issue should be responded to when the President comes back to Parliament so that the people and the nation should really get a clear indication from the President himself. I don’t think the President has a problem answering this question. It is very simple. Let us give him a chance, once and for all. Then we will no longer talk about it. Thank you very much.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, I’m going to be short. I think the business of the day must be allowed to continue and His Excellency the President must be allowed to carry out his responsibility. The sooner we do that, the better. I also want to say that I hope hon Meshoe will pray for us. [Laughter.] Respect has become a scarce resource in this Parliament. I just want to emphasise that we can bring our points across without being disrespectful. I also want to say that all parties should act in a manner which protects this Parliament. We should be patriotic and act as true South Africans. I want to say that there are better ways. If you say somebody or the hon President is wrong, and I share that view, you should do it in such a way that you show yourself as the better person, because, as much as you say the President has done this or that, make sure that you live an exemplary life at the same time.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, without trying to confuse the discussion even more, I think the President has been here and he has heard what the majority of the parties have been saying. There are two points that I think are important to note: Firstly, in the main, South Africans recognise that we want to come here and proceed with the business - that shouldn’t be denied and that must be fair and it must be granted.
Yet, at the same time, we mustn’t lose track of the fact that the last time the President was here, we left on a note where the President in fact mocked the issue of Nkandla. I think South Africans are offended by that and we mustn’t deny that fact.
Therefore, can I request, Speaker, hon members, everybody has spoken about this issue. I want to ask and ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Can you wrap up, hon Maimane?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I am, Speaker. I want to request that the President takes the podium. He can address, first and foremost, the issue that we are speaking about, and we can proceed with the questions. It’s up to him what he wants to say to the people of this country. And I want us to afford him the opportunity to do that.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Maimane. Hon members, this House has a constitutional function. Hon Malema, please allow the Chair to proceed.
Mr J S MALEMA: Before you make a ruling on how we are going to proceed ... Everybody has been given a chance here, so I think I must ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You know the EFF was also given a chance.
Mr J S MALEMA: But they spoke twice. They spoke twice.
The SPEAKER: Please proceed, hon Malema. Proceed.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker. We want to make a submission that the President will start with the Nkandla matter. You see, you are shaking your head, hon Speaker, even before I finish, because you’ve got a partisan position; and that is why this House collapses. We’ll never listen to anything from you because of party-politics. The President is answerable to this House. This overprotection of the President has caused this House to collapse. You and the President have actually rendered this institution useless. You can be guaranteed that the President is going to have to answer that question today. Before we do any other ... [Interjections.] You can say no and all that, but the reality of the situation is that we are stuck at a point where the President will have to tell us when he is paying back the money. That’s where we are. No intervention is going to help, because the President, whatever answer is going to give on any question, ridicules this Parliament and he has undermined the process of accountability.
We will never believe anything he says until he confirms that he will respect a constitutional institution in the form of the Public Protector and he shall be comply with the remedial actions of the Public Protector and that the Nhleko report shall be sent to Nhleko’s house for his kids to ... [Interjections.] ... game he was showing on TV because we don’t recognise that thing Nhleko was doing. We are on the Public Protector ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, can you allow a point of order from Agang SA?
Mr J S MALEMA: Okay.
The SPEAKER: Hon Tlouamma.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, we’ve just agreed from our meeting as Whips that the President should be allowed to continue with the business of the day. I believe that most of the deliberations ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: He is misleading the House.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: Can I assist you, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: No, I don’t want your assistance, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: Let us help him, Madam Speaker. There was no agreement in the Chief Whips forum.
The SPEAKER: I don’t need help, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: If there was never such an agreement. A suggestion was made that Whips must go and hold a caucus, after that we must come back to the same House and report. He’s misleading the House; there was never an agreement ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, can you allow another hon member of the House? [Interjections.]No, you have to give him his chance to say what he wants to say. There are many things you say where others disagree with you.
Mr G A GARDEE: We will come back to that. It’s okay.
The SPEAKER: Please, let hon Tlouamma proceed.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, as I said, the majority of the parties have made statements that the business of the day must continue today.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, there’s no point of order from that member. Hon Malema had the floor and that member stood up on a point of order which is, in fact, not a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon!
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: My point of order was let’s allow the business of the day to continue for the President to answer questions, and if there are ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: That point of order is sustained.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Speaker, I propose that we vote on the matter, whether we proceed according to today’s programme or not. I propose that the matter be put to a vote. That’s how democracy works. [Applause.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, whether you vote or you don’t vote, we are going to ask the President the same question and that question doesn’t depend on voting here. We are not voting cattle, we are not here to vote, and we are here to debate.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, may I please address you?
An HON MEMBER: Where’s the girl? Please bring back the girl. Bring back the girl.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, can we respect each other? Can we respect the House? Can we respect the people of South Africa?
Ms N V NQWENISO: Hon Speaker, please ...
... ukuba sifuna le Ndlu ibuyele kulaa ndawo ibikuyo kwanokuba awufuni ukuba yehlele kwisimo ongasifuniyo, qala ngabantu be-ANC uthi ma barhoxise. [... if we want this House to return to where it was before and if you do not want things to deteriorate further, start with the members from the ANC and ask them to withdraw.]
What girl are they talking about? Bring back which girl? Who is saying that? Which girl must be brought back? If you don’t ask them to withdraw that, then this House is going to deteriorate.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, in fact, I was interrupted as I was saying that this House has a constitutional function to undertake according to the Rules that are in place in terms of which matters are raised. There’s a questions procedure in the Rules book which regulates both oral and written questions. Parties have the opportunity in terms of the Rules to ask questions. Today’s question session is being held in terms of that procedure and according to that procedure we have been processing the issue of the questions that are on the Question Paper and we will now proceed. I recognise the hon President.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, please, may I address you?
The SPEAKER: No.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: We are going to allow that ... [ Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I don’t want you to address me, because we are now proceeding.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Now, every time I stand, you don’t want to recognise me.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat. [Applause.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I want to take my seat, but I’m rising on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: No.
Ms N P SONTI: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member I will not recognise you. I have now, for the second time, called the President to answer questions that are on the Question Paper.
Nks N P SONTI: Somlomo, lilungelo lam nam.
SOMLOMO: Hayi sisi, awunalungelo lokuphazamisa iNdlu.
Nks N P SONTI: Somlomo, lilungelo lam, andimoshi, andimoshi.
SOMLOMO: Uyamosha sisi, uyamosha.
Nks N P SONTI: Lilungelo lam sisi, ndikhulule.
SOMLOMO: Awunalo ilungelo lokwaphula imithetho yePalamente.
Nks N P SONTI: Kutheni ndingenalo? Andiphuli mthetho, Somlomo andiphuli mthetho. Ubavumele bonke; kutheni mna ungandivumeli?
SOMLOMO: Akusafanelekanga ukuba ndikuvumele. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N P SONTI: Speaker, it is my right as well.
The SPEAKER: No ma’ am, you have no right to disturb the House.
Ms N P SONTI: Speaker, it is my right; I am not causing trouble.
The SPEAKER: You are causing trouble, ma’ am.
Ms N P SONTI: It is my right, ma’ am, allow me.
The SPEAKER: You do not have the right to break the Rules of Parliament.
Ms N P SONTI: Why do I not have the right? I am not breaking the law, Speaker. You allowed all the others; why can’t you allow me?
The SPEAKER: I should not allow you anymore.]
The SPEAKER: According to the Rules.
Nks N P SONTI: Mamela ke Somlomo wam, thina asi ...
SOMLOMIO: Andifuni ukumamela sisi.
Nks N P SONTI: Kulungile ndiza kuthetha. Sisatsho ...
SOMLOMO: Ndicela uhlale phantsi.
Nks N P SONTI: Sisatsho ke thina sithi, okokuba ngaba ...
SOMLOMO: Ndicela uhlale phantsi, sisi.
Nks N P SONTI: Okokuba ngaba le mpendulo siyifumanayo kulo tata ayikho, akukazukulunga kule Ndlu. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N P SONTI: Listen, my Speaker, we do not ...
The SPEAKER: I do not want to listen, ma’ am.
Ms N P SONTI: It is okay then, I am going to speak. We maintain that ...
The SPEAKER: Will you please take your seat?
Ms N P SONTI: We still maintain that, if ...
The SPEAKER: Will you please take your seat, ma’ am?
Ms N P SONTI: If the response we get from this gentleman is not satisfactory, things will not go well in this House.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, can you please take your seat?
Ms N P SONTI: Akukazukulunga kule Ndlu yakho. Ukuba ngaba lo tata akakaphenduli. Isizwe sibukele kwaye nanamhlanje sisabukele. [Things will not go well in this House of yours. If the gentleman does not reply. The nation is watching even today.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, if you do not want to take your seat ...
Ms N P SONTI: Nangalaa mini wayejayiva sasibukele, simangele, angajayiva utata omdala kangaka zibe izinto zimbi imali engaka yabantu eyidlile. [Even on that day he was dancing here we were watching, wondering how such an old man could be dancing whilst the situation is so bad, with him having embezzled such a huge amount of taxpayers’ money.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Sonti, can you please take your seat. If you don’t, I will have to ask you to leave the House.
Ms N P SONTI: Kodwa, kodwa unecala; unalo icala kwaye kudala sikujongile. [However, you are biased; you are biased and all along we have been watching you.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Sonti, can you please enable the House to proceed?
Nks N P SONTI: Unalo icala, ndithi mandikuxelele. Isizwe sijongile sibukele sona, yonke le nto yenzekayo bayayifuna. Ayisithi abantu abayifunayo kuba inoba ucinga ukuba yi-EFF le ifuna lemali. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Ms N P SONTI: You are biased, I feel I should tell you that. The nation is watching and they want to know what is happening. It is not us who want to know what is happening, in case you think that it is the EFF that wants the money to be to be paid back.]
The SPEAKER: Can I call on the Serjeant-at-arms to assist that hon member who has no intention to allow the House to proceed with its work to please leave the House?
Ms N R MASHABELA: Speaker, Speaker would you please recognise me? Madam Speaker, Mr President, Mr President, please be honest with the people of South Africa. You do not even respect the Constitution of this country. Mr President, please respect the Constitution. You are not above the law. Last time when we were here, you did not speak well about the Nkandla issue. You were making jokes ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Mashabela, I never recognised you, for a start.
Ms N R MASHABELA: You were making the Nkandla issue a joke. Nkaaaandla, Nkaandla Nkaandlaaa maye babo. The poor President, when are you going to pay back the money? It is a matter of national interest. The people of South Africa want to know when you are going to pay back the money. Please be honest with the people of South Africa, your own people, your own country, Mr President.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker, may we assist you?
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we cannot continue like this.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, I want to assist you.
The SPEAKER: No, I do not need your assistance, hon Gardee, we can’t proceed like this.
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, the point of order is: When you suspended the sitting, you requested us to go and meet. In that meeting, there was never an agreement.
The SPEAKER: We received the reports from the Chief Whips and we know exactly what they decided on, but there are hon members in those benches who do not want to allow the House to proceed with its business.
Mr G A GARDEE: It is not true, Madam Speaker, it is in bad faith that the Whips of the ruling party are doing what they did. A suggestion was made that, after the caucuses, we should go back to that room. They must report on the issues that were raised. They are refusing to go back to that room to report on what they have discussed in their caucuses. We would not have this problem if they had reported there and we came back here after having reached a mutual understanding.
Now they are misleading you and the House, Madam Speaker, by saying that there was an agreement. The only agreement was that, after the caucuses, Whips were going to meet to deal with the issues that came out of the caucuses on the matters that had been raised. Is the President going to apologise for his racist gesture on that particular day when he mimicked the accent of certain people? That was very racist. They should have reported back to the Whips on whether he was going to apologise or not.
They did not convene the Whips Forum again to report back on the outcome of the party caucuses. The only thing that can be done now Madam Speaker, is for you to request the Whips to go and report there. If we do not agree, then so be it. We will come back and see what happens. That was in bad faith.
The SPEAKER: I would like to say that it is very clear that there are hon members who are determined to keep the business of the House from proceeding.
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Hon Speaker, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: I also want to say, hon members, that this is disrespectful to the people of South Africa ...
Mr K Z MORAPELA: I do not think you are helping, Speaker. Hon Lekota raised a very important point on equality before the law.
The SPEAKER: The majority of the Whips made it clear that their decision was that ...
Mr K Z MORAPELA: In terms of the Rule, in terms of the Constitution, the Public Protector’s report is ...
The SPEAKER: There are members who are determined to disrupt the House.
Mr K Z MORAPELA: ... is a report that everybody must respect. It is all we are asking, Speaker, please. It is not our intention to disrupt, but to raise a constitutional issue. The President must respect the Constitution. The Public Protector’s Office is one of the institutions which supports the Constitution. So, please, equality before the law is something that all of us need to observe, irrespective of our responsibilities.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, no, no, no, no, order, on a point of order, Speaker, no, no, no, no. Hon Speaker, you can’t do that, you can’t do that, you can’t do that. It is wrong. We are equal here. You can’t do that. If you are going to recognise the super Minister, you must recognise all of us.
Hon MEMBERS: Pay back the money! Pay back the money! Pay back the money!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have exercised patience, I have implemented the rules. It is clear that there are those who will not co-operate. At this point, I am sure the only thing is that we direct what it is that we need to do with this kind of behaviour to the relevant structures of Parliament. But, hon members, it must be clear also to the public that there are those who have come to this Parliament to undermine the will of the people of South Africa.
Hon MEMBERS: Pay back the money! Pay back the money! Pay back the money!
The SPEAKER: Therefore, at this point, because we can’t go on like this, I would like the House to be adjourned until we take a different decision.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: You can’t close the House because the Mace is still there. Members who are leaving are disrespecting the House. The Mace is still there.
The SPEAKER: Can the Mace be taken out of the House?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am on the floor.
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I have adjourned the House.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, you have not.
The SPEAKER: Please, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, you have not.
The SPEAKER: Please, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, the House is not adjourned, the Mace is still here and I want to ...
The SPEAKER: Can you remove the Mace?
Mr D M GUMEDE: Nonsense, Nonsense.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, are you in control of your House? Madam Speaker, the only winner today has been President Zuma and the executive who have once again got away from accountability. You don’t have your answer, we don’t have our answers and the people of South Africa don’t have any answers. What is going on in this Parliament?
The House adjourned at 16:35.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1. Assent by President in respect of Bills
- Auditing Profession Amendment Bill [B 15B – 2014] – Act No 2 of 2015 (assented to and signed by President on 16 June 2015).
2. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
- The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bills as section 77 Bills:
- Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill [B 15 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).
- Eskom Special Appropriation Bill [B 16 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).
- Eskom Subordinated Loan Special Appropriation Amendment Bill (2008/09-2010/11 Financial Years) [B 17 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).
National Assembly
The Speaker
- Membership of Committees
- The following changes to Committee membership have been made:
- United Democratic Movement
Ad Hoc Committee to consider the report by the Minister of Police in reply to recommendations in the Report of Ad Hoc Committee to Consider the Report by the President regarding Security upgrades at the Nkandla Private Residence of the President.
Discharged: Filtane, Mr MLW [Non-Voting Member]
Appointed: Kwankwa, Mr NLS [Non-Voting Member]
- Economic Freedom Fighters
Portfolio Committee on Public Works
Discharged: Sonti, Ms NP
Appointed: Dlamini, Mr M
Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries
Discharged: Joseph, Mr B
Appointed: Paulsen, Mr N
Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources
Appointed: Dlamini, Mr M [Alternate]
Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services
Discharged: Litchfield-Tshabalala, Ms K
Appointed: Malema, Mr J
Portfolio Committee on Health
Discharged: Mokause, Mr M
Appointed: Chewane, Dr H
Portfolio Committee on Human Settlements
Discharged: Ntobongwana, Ms P
Appointed: Mokause, Mr M
Portfolio Committee on Telecommunications and Postal Services
Discharged: Ndlozi, Mr M
Appointed: Ketabahle, Ms V
Portfolio Committee on Tourism
Discharged: Ramakatsa, Mr RP
Appointed: Ketabahle, Ms V
Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs
Discharged: Mngxitama, Mr JA
Appointed: Ntobongwana, Ms P
Portfolio Committee on Social Development
Discharged: Ketabahle, Ms V
Appointed: Sonti, Ms P
- Pan Africanist Congress
Portfolio Committee on Communications
Discharged: Mphethi, Mr SSA
Appointed: Mbinda, Mr L
Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans
Discharged: Mphethi, Mr SSA [Alternate]
Appointed: Mbinda, Mr L [Alternate]
Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services
Discharged: Mphethi, Mr SSA [Alternate]
Appointed: Mbinda, Mr L [Alternate]
Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform
Discharged: Mphethi, Mr SSA
Appointed: Mbinda, Mr L
Committee on Public Accounts
Discharged: Mphethi, Mr SSA Alternate]
Appointed: Mbinda, Mr L [Alternate]
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
Please see pages 2354-2356 of the ATCs.
National Assembly
Please see pages 2356-2359 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 2359-2360 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 2360-2362 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 2363-2367 of the ATCs.
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