Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 09 Sep 2015

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

 

WEDNESDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 2015

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:01.

 

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

 

FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS

 

(Announcement)

 

The SPEAKER: The first item on the Order Paper is questions addressed to the Deputy President. You may press the talk button on your desk if you wish to ask a supplementary question.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

 

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Steps taken to institutionalise best practice models in the Public Service

 

17.          The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the Deputy President:

 

In view of several recent findings by the Public Protector, such as those in the recent report into the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, that indicate that there is gross corruption and financial mismanagement in many government departments and state-owned enterprises, what is he doing to institutionalise best practice models in the Public Service in this regard?                                                                                     NO3987E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, the issue of the institutionalisation of best practice models is a process that always focuses attention on, what we could say, the best ways of getting things done. The main focus of the Office of the Deputy President is on the national roll-out of a best practice model with regard to intergraded service delivery along the lines of Operation Sukuma Sakhe programme which is in KwaZulu-Natal. Operation Sukuma Sakhe approach embraces community partnership and full participation. It supports the co-ordinated implementation of service delivery interventions aimed at curbing social ills including unemployment, inequality and poverty, HIV and Aids, and crime and corruption.

 

The greater involvement of communities in the provision of service delivery should contribute to a greater transparency and accountability and reduce opportunities for corruption. Beyond the work being undertaken by the Office of the Deputy President, government more broadly has identified the fight against corruption as a priority. The diagnostic report of the National Planning Commission indicates that South Africa suffers from high levels of corruption that undermines the rule of law and hinders the development and socioeconomic transformation of our country. We have in place a number of mechanisms as well as programmes to both prevent and detect corruption and financial mismanagement and to take action against those found responsible. Some of these mechanisms which will accentuate the best practice models are already being finalised and I’ll talk about one of them.

 

Since we took over from the deep corrupt system of apartheid we have put in place several accountability mechanisms. The Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, the Protected Disclosures Act, the Public Service Management Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act are all aimed at reducing the scope for corruption. Oversight institutions such as the Auditor-General and the Public Protector play a critical role in ensuring transparency and accountability.

 

The best practice model is being implemented in a number of ways and in one of these was to establish the office of the chief procurement officer in the National Treasury and this has clearly been a significant development. This office uses strategic sourcing and purchasing of common goods to achieve efficiency and value for money. It is implementing a central supplier database to prevent acts such as duplication, increased supplier management efficiency and to reduce the potential for the abuse of government procurement processes. And given that, mostly corruption really manifests itself through the procurement system. This institutionalisation of the office of procurement is going to be very, very good in combating corruption. Ultimately, corruption will not be defeated unless we all play our part in curbing it.

 

Firstly, business needs to join government in stamping out corruption wherever it manifests itself.

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, through you to the Deputy President, I think we can agree that despite the mechanisms that you’ve highlighted, corruption is on the rise. In fact, under President Zuma corruption is even getting worse. The real question is, and it is not me who is just saying it, but it is even in the ANC’s document which says it quite clearly that there are allegations within high leadership echelons. They acknowledged that many acts of corruption in government derive from party dynamics.

 

What I’m interested in learning is, and the question speaks about the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, where, similar to Nkandla, the Public Protector found again certain members. In fact, we know on the ground, people are telling us that jobs in the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, are given to ANC connected people.

 

So, our concern here is that even in this House the hon Pule Mabe has been found guilty by the Public Protector for a tender of R33 million. What I’m interested in learning, Deputy President, is that what are you going to do to ensure that there’s a political accountability? We can blame officials and we can put systems, but the fact is that politicians get away with corruption. What are you, as the Leader of Government Business, going to do to ensure that your fellow comrades are held to account, or should we rather wait for 2017? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as I’ve indicated that corruption is a social and economic ill that we all need to fight. It is an ill that many countries have to deal with all over the world. There’s no country where corruption does not have to be dealt with. The success of being able to deal with corruption depends on a number of things. First, is to set in place the correct mechanisms as I was saying, but it also has to involve the population itself. The people of any country have, themselves, to participate in curbing corruption. And in this case, we say that communities, business community and everyone has to play a role. We have found that in any act of corruption those who are involved will either be in business, civil servants or people in the public space who are publicly elected people. So, that is almost like the triangle of corruption and that is what we need to attend to and to rid our country of. And it exists all over.

 

It is all very well to sit up there and be biased and say, “You, deal with it; we have no role in it.” We are saying that all of us have to deal with this public ill ... [Interjections.]

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We ought to make sure that we deal with it and ensure that we rid our country off corruption now.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, may you please allow the Deputy President to respond to your question?

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, it is my question. Please, not ... please. Thanks.

 

The SPEAKER: Please, hon Maimane. Hon Deputy President, please proceed.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The hon member spoke about corruption in the EPWP programmes. I had always heard about this, and as I’ve gone around the country and particularly participating in initiatives where the EPWP programmes are underway. I’ve often asked how people are chosen to participate in the EPWP works or projects. I’ve often been shown lists that people have and many people in the community say, yes, my name came up and I’m participating; yes, my name came up and I’m participating.

 

The allegation that is being made is unknown to me. I have gone around the length and the breadth of the country seeking to find out how those jobs are actually distributed amongst our people. Corruption, yes, is an ill that we all need to participate in curbing. Let us not sit on our coaches and just talk about it, but let us do something about it. Thank you very much.

 

The SPEAKER: The hon Hlengwa.

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: No.

 

The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: With great respect, the question even speaks about the hon Mabe here. I’m asking the Deputy President what he is going to do, and not all of us. It’s not everyone’s problem. What is he going to do? Let the Deputy President answer the question himself. Not all of us, but himself.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, I’m proceeding to ask the hon Hlengwa to put a supplementary question to the Deputy President. Yes, hon Steenhuisen.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, we put Questions to the Deputy President so that he answers them. He can’t come here with a pre-prepared script from Luthuli House and read it and expect us to accept it as an answer. He clearly did not understand or listen to the question of hon Maimane; it was direct and he has not answered it.

 

We can’t have these sessions here if the Deputy President is going to make a joke of it. Why must we come to the House and have these sessions if he is not actually going to answer the Questions? He needs to get serious. This man wants to be the President and he can’t even answer a Question! [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I have now called upon hon Hlengwa to ask a supplementary Question. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: You are not addressing the point of order!

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy President, yesterday in this House there was a debate on the issue of corruption and I think we all left in agreement that corruption was a widespread problem, particularly on that side of the House. It is compounded by the fact that, more often than not, there is a total disregard for the findings of the Public Protector. The Question we would like answered is whether there is the political will and commitment in government to actually take the Public Protector and the findings that comes out of her investigations seriously.

 

What is currently going on cannot be acceptable. You cherry-pick the reports of the Public Protector and say, we like those, but we don’t like those. It makes a mockery of the process and further entrenches the culture of non-accountability.

 

So, is there the political will for a proactive engagement, interaction and relationship with the Public Protector, as opposed to this offensive and attacking nature which we currently see, which is reactive more often than not and is underpinned by high levels of cherry-picking?

 

We want a commitment towards a healthy working relation between government and the Public Protector because we want to maintain a healthy system of checks and balances, particularly with regard to the issues which are her findings on matters that she is investigating. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I can answer emphatically that, yes, there is political will to deal with the findings of the various institutions that we have put in place and are meant to deal with corruption. [Interjections.] The Public Protector recently came out with a report on Prasa – as the hon Leader of the Opposition mentioned earlier. When she came out with that report, the board immediately said they are studying that report and they are going to look closely at it and see what action needs to be taken. They have taken on the responsibility as the correct authority that should do so. They are the ones who either ask for the report or people complain and once the report is out they will deal with it.

 

The government’s commitment to dealing with corruption is strong and it is for this reason ... if you listen very carefully ... it is for this reason ... [Interjections.] ... that the office of central procurement has been put in place. Corruption always happens around procurement and it was for this reason that the ruling party decided that an office like that should be put in place. [Interjections.] It was put in place so that we can centralise procurement.

 

The procurement office is now setting up a supplier database so that anybody who wants to do business with the state – who wants the state to buy their services or their goods – should have their names on the database. This means that everything will be transparent and that there will be higher levels of efficiency. That is precisely how we are going to carry on with the job of curbing corruption in government.

 

Likewise, we are saying that those who are in business should also take heed. Corruption involves a number of people – those who are in business, some in the public service and also publicly elected officials. Everyone can get entrapped in corrupt activities.

 

This central procurement process is going to reduce levels of corruption. It is going to curb corruption and it is going to increase efficiency in government by ensuring that resources are not wasted. That is the commitment that we are giving to the people of South Africa and which I also give that to you, Mr Hlengwa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy President, I am sorry to say this but your initial response to the main question was pretty much generic. It didn’t offer much content. It is a very specific question which is based on the fact that, time and time again, we come across corruption in employment, construction, and retail – in the form of collusion – in housing allocation as well as in services where you get some monopolies.

 

Now, what stringent, urgent, strategic, legal measures does your government propose to take? What policies have actually been changed in the recent past – in the last five years – to show that you are dealing with – and not planning to deal with – current corruption in such a manner that it can actually be arrested? What legislation or policies have been amended, and so on?

 

We would like to get specific answers. If you are not ready to give us specific answers today, we can come back another time because you may not have all the details that we need. But we need answers. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: A number of policies have been put in place and continue to be put in place. For instance, one of the recent policies is to stop and curb civil servants from doing business with the state. A number of investigations found that a number of civil servants were actually doing business with the state. In education, for instance, you will find that a school principal is the owner of the catering company that supplies food to the school children.

 

It is for this that government decided that we should stop and curb activities like those because the conflict of interest is quite huge when it comes to that. That was a policy move, a clear directed policy move to curb activities such as those.

 

I don’t want to repeat myself, but one of the most outstanding decisions was to establish the office of central procurement. This was decided by the ruling party at its conference. It has now been put in place. The Procurement Bill is also going to be put before Parliament and the machinery and mechanisms are being put in place to deal with the question of corruption.

 

This is a ruling party that is not paying lip service to the issue of dealing with corruption. [Interjections.] It is actually getting down to business. [Interjections.]

 

If you want to know, a number of civil servants have actually been dealt with in a number of ways ... [Interjections.] ... in a disciplinary fashion, some have actually had criminal charges preferred against them, and some have even had to comply with follow up actions like actually refunding money to the state. [Interjections.] Now, all of these are both policy instruments as well as practical action that were taken.

 

In reference to the earlier Question in which an allegation was made that Members of Parliament had been involved in corrupt activities, this Parliament has the power to report any Member of Parliament involved in corrupt activities to the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee can deal with them. So, please don’t come here and complain. If anyone is involved in corrupt activity let them be reported to the Ethics Committee, because that is how you deal with corruption. [Applause.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker to the Deputy President, the flourishing corruption in this country is not so much because of incompetent public servants who are mismanaging funds, but it is as the result of the institutionalisation of corruption at a political level. For in stance Schabir Shaik gets convicted for having a corrupt relationship with the President, spends a few months in jail and goes on to play golf. The Public Protector asks the President to pay a reasonable amount of the money spent to build his compound in Nkandla, instead, the President uses Parliament to shield his corruption. Your own company, hon Deputy President, colludes to sell coal to Eskom at inflated prices. Now, the question is, what kind of medicine is needed to cure the ANC with its leadership? [Interjections.]

 

You can laugh but you heard what I said. The ANC, starting with number one, need a medicine to be cured, as there is no political will at all or else we need prayers in this country. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, earlier I spoke about the problem of corruption. We are not unique. Many countries and institutions all over the world have to deal with corruption. If we recall or cast our eyes back, corruption in this very country was rife and underpinned by an apartheid system. However, we never got to hear about it because ... [Interjections.] ... it was hidden under the edifice of apartheid.

 

But today, yes, we do get to hear about corruption. This is good because it shows that transparency is increasing hence corruption is now coming out more and more in the open. Our media is much more vigorous and this is a good sign of progress. At the same time the ruling party has actually decided that it is going to deal with corruption as one of the key ills that beset our country.

 

Now mechanisms are being put in place, some are already in operation and indeed some will continue to be in operation. If members of this House have further suggestions on how this can be dealt with, let them put those suggestions on the table. We are open to any suggestions. However, we have already put in place mechanisms that are currently dealing with the spade of corruption. We are determined to rid our country of corruption whether you like it or not, we will do it. Thank you, very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

Government’s intentions regarding National Development Plan

 

18.          Mr N F Shivambu (EFF) asked the Deputy President:

 

Whether, in view of the fact that the National Development Plan (NDP) goals are based on a 5% economic growth and the fact that the country will not achieve such economic growth, with the result that the NDP goals will not be achieved, the Government intends to abandon the NDP and replace it with a more radical economic policy framework that will be driven by the state and not the private sector; if not, why not?                                                                                                                                            NO3988E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and hon members, like in many other countries, our economy currently faces headwinds. It faces difficult challenges that are contributing to low economic growth. We are not the only country in the world that is facing economic woes, but this is right across, including a country like China which was growing at high rates. So, we are not alone. Let us remember that we are not alone there are many other countries that are facing economic challenges. [Interjections.]

 

Some of our challenges are domestic. We have a large scales deficit as a result of our past, we have systemic employment, we have low levels of domestic savings, we do have energy constrains as we all know, we have low levels of fixed investments and there are also labour relations issues. [Interjections.]

 

On the other hand, just like in many other countries, there are quite a number of external challenges that we face which include a plunge in commodity prices. We are essentially a mineral-based economy and the commodities that we eke out of our soil are facing great difficulties like lower demand from China and other emerging economies, and rising interest rates in some of the developed economies like the United States.

 

We are determined to address these challenges so that we can accelerate economic growth and achieve the goals that we set for ourselves in the National Development Plan, NDP. In addition, the nine-point plan that was announced by President Jacob Zuma in his state of the nation address is specifically designed to address these challenges. These have been this government’s response to the economic headwinds that we are facing. This government is committed to a mixed economy that facilitates and enhances participation of both the public and the private sectors. As we note in the National Development Plan, South Africa requires both a capable and a developmental state which is able to act to redress historical inequities to have a vibrant and thriving private sector which is going to work along side with the public sector. The NDP recognises the need for sustained state participation in the economy not in opposition to, but in partnership with the private sector like it happens in many other countries. [Interjections.]

 

The state is already making significant contribution and investment in our economy. It is currently investing large amounts in infrastructure, in energy, in transport systems and in building dams and houses. Government promotes economic transformation also by promoting and supporting small medium businesses and it has implemented several measures to attract both foreign and domestic investments.

 

We have been successful often in partnership with state-owned enterprises particularly in the form of developmental finance institutions like the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA. Government also intervenes to deal with challenges of specific sectors in our economy. A recent example is how we have dealt with the steel industry that is facing headwinds. This government is committed to addressing the real impediments to growth in our economy and as we manage this economy we are creating a balance between what the state can do on its own and what the state can do in partnership with the private sector. With that, we continue to seek this balance and we are confident that as we implement the nine-point plan, our economic woes will be the thing of the past as our economy continues to grow.

 

Now 2020, is the year that we have set out for ourselves to have an economy - hon Shivambu - that will be growing at 5%. And this is not the time to think of abandoning the NDP, not at all. It is an overarching plan of our people and of our country and we should, and in fact I am convinced that we will, be able to reach that 5% growth by 2030. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, earlier on the Chief Whip of the Opposition said that the Deputy President wants to be the President, well according to the premier league, that is not going to happen. He is not going to be the president of anything ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... because the next President is going to be a female. Now, the question is, your NDP’s backbone is that there must be capitalist expansion by 5% at least in the next 14 or 15 years. And all indications in the global economy and domestically are such that there will never be such expansion despite whatever you can do. You can only wish.

 

So, it means that your intension to create 11 million jobs, to deal with the question of education much more decisively, to industrialise might not happen because your logic and thinking is that there must be continued capitalist expansion. We are saying, don’t you think it is high time to take a noncapitalist development which will include state-led industrialisation – state-anchored industrialisation – instead of just throwing money into black industries. Like was the case in China when it took off from the late 1970s to the early 1980s, why don’t you use this space to utilise the available steel and mineral resources to industrialise ... [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, do you have a question?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... and deal more decisively with those issues? The question is, why don’t we involve state-participation and take a noncapitalist route towards industrial development? Thank you very much, Deputy President forever.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I think anyone reading the political economic history of the world will realise that successful economies, particularly in the modern age, have tended to be those that have harnessed the strength of state-owned enterprises as well as the private sector enterprises. It was then Xiuping who, after 30 years of pure socialists economic development in China, realised that the only way to catapult China to higher levels of growth would be to harness the capital of the private sector and involve the private sector.

 

Remember in 1949 they had smashed the state and set up state-owned enterprises and their performance was not at a high level. I will give you one good example. Their steel production capability was kept at 23 million tons and it was only after 1979 - after they introduced capital from offshore management capabilities - that they learned from other capitalist countries, that they integrated them with their own state-owned enterprises and that their steel production rose up to 620 million tons. They were wise because they had adopted a system that said we want to control our economy, but we are going to involve the private sector. Granted, the public sector in China is the dominant player in their economy. In our country ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, but it is as a result of their history.

 

In 1949, they smashed the state and nationalised everything. In 1994 we did not smash the state and we had to reach an agreement with capital in this country. [Interjections.] Capital controls 70% of our economy and we control 30%. [Interjections.]

 

Now, the question is, how do you harness the strength of both the private sector and the public sector to create magic and to make sure that your economy grows. That is what China did and we are investing a lot of money in our economy as the state. The state is currently the biggest investor in our economy and we are investing in infrastructure. The capital investment in our economy is rising by leaps and bounds. With the state and the private sector playing a key role in the economic trajectory of our country going to 2030, we are going to turn this economy around. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the National Development Plan, NDP, remains one document or strategic plan which has the support of most South Africans because it was unanimously adopted by this Parliament. Civil society, business and labour, also supported the NDP. It is not only South Africans who supported the NDP, our trade partners when they came and engaged us here in Parliament, they said that this NDP is good because they can see future projections of this economy and the areas in which development is going to be as the entire economy in the world reaches it peaks and troughs. Is the South African government contemplating dropping this good plan because of the first troughs that we are hitting as a country? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The South African government has no plans, intentions, thoughts or whatsoever to drop the NDP. This has become the most comprehensive plan that has been put forward to the people of South Africa and the good thing about it is that it was adopted by nearly every party in this Parliament. It is our plan. It is our overarching plan that we have translated as government with the purpose of implementing it more properly in to the medium-term strategic plan framework with clearly set out outcomes and deliverables. That plan has been dissected to the last iota. It’s every quota is now in implementation mode. Ministers in President Zuma’s government account for how they are implementing the plan, how they set out areas of strength and weakness and how they actually set out clear timeframes with regard to the implementation of the plan. Because it is an overarching plan, it touches on every aspect of South Africans.

 

This has become the most wholesome plan our country has had and it is deeply embedded on the Freedom Charter which was adopted 60 years ago. As we implement this plan we are essentially implementing the tenets of our Constitution as well as the Freedom Charter. More directly we have no plan whatsoever to abandon the National Development Plan and indeed the Freedom Charter. This is our plan. It is a plan by South Africans, they own it and they are watching us as we are implementing it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr D J MAYNIER: With respect Deputy President, the hon Deputy Minister of Public Works, Jeremy Cronin, disagrees with you because the hon Deputy Minister tells us that the National Development Plan is more like a vision. He tells us that it consist of some useful insights and recommendations, intriguing and untested proposals, summaries of programmes and long underway and much else. He tells us that these are all sandwiched between an opening section of cringe worthy poetry and a clumsy attempt to present social contract theory. These are not views of the opposition but they are views of government and its own National Development Plan.

So, will the Deputy President tell us whether he agrees with his own Deputy Minister and if he doesn’t agree whether he agrees with me that the root cause of the problem is that government cannot or indeed will not implement the National Development Plan? That is why as the ANC’s own document tell us that South Africa is an under performer. [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is not my wish to personalise anything in this Parliament but to the extent that you want me to personalise it. [Interjections.] I work with Deputy Minster Cronin and both of us are leading the charge in implementing programmes that are set out in the National Development Plan. That is what I need to tell you because you want us to disown our Minister. No! We will not. We will rather disown you because we can’t disown our own Deputy Minister. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

Coming back to some of the interpretation that you put, the poetry in the National Development Plan is so well crafted. The Deputy Minister is a poet himself. You should take time and read his poems because maybe that will be eye opening to you. It will open the pores of your thinking if you were to read his poems. Now, the National Development Plan as an overarching plan of government, is a plan that we are all implementing. What you have said and what the Deputy Minister has said in his reading is not mutually exclusive, we are together in implementing this plan. So, there are no contradictions and where you are seeing contradictions it is as a result of you double vision, because I am sure maybe you don’t see clearly. [Applause.]

 

We are joined ... [Interjections.] – Yes, because you wear classes. I am only double visioned when I read, when I put on my glasses, but you are permanently double visioned. [Laughter.] We are all committed to implementing the National Development Plan. There are no contradictions, there is no doubt, and there is no hesitation on this side of the House about implementing it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Speaker, hon Deputy President, the National Development Plan is a very good idea to begin with and by the way it is already driven by the state. However, it may never be implemented because of the many challenges and changing circumstances impacting South Africa on a daily basis. We see business confidence in South Africa falling to a recent low of 84.3% on the business Comfort Index. This is due largely due and admittedly so by the global financial market turmoil. The biggest threat must be the plan for socioeconomic development in this country when taking into account the variables such as the energy supply, labour, unions and a hostile labour market and numerous other challenges. My question, hon Deputy President, if government cannot deal with the volatile and changing socioeconomic patterns and adequately plan for the same, how do we expect business to find comfort in the long-term strategy in South Africa and to embrace the NDP? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One thing that you cannot fault this government for is its bravery and its courage to deal with all difficult challenge that it faces. You have just alluded to some of them. We are dealing with great challenges such as the labour situation, lack of investment and the energy challenge. You haven’t had load shedding for almost 30 days now. [Interjections.] We are stabilising Eskom and we told you so. [Interjections.] We told you that we will stabilise Eskom and it is happening right in front of your eyes and maybe you are blind and you don’t see that we are stabilising. [Applause.] Maybe you lack hearing and maybe we need to repeat over and over again. We are dealing with our challenges like any other country in the world. [Interjections.] We are not shy of dealing with them and where we have weaknesses we admit them. Where we have failings we admit them, we are that type of government.

 

When it comes to the business community, our President on an ongoing basis interacts with business leaders with a view of increasing business confidence and invites them to come forward with proposals and to invest in their own economy. At the National Economic Development and Labour Council level, a number of our Ministers such as the Ministers of Labour, Economic Planning and others participate with all our social partners. We are going to hold a summit on Friday where we will deal with economic challenges facing our country.

 

We have an interactive relationship with the business community, social organisations or NGO’s as well as unions. You don’t find that easily in many other countries in the world. We are one of the unique countries that deal with difficult problems with all our social partners and this is being done so that we can get ideas. The business community must come forward with ideas and put them on the table so that we can see whether they have any efficacy so that we can inject them in the economic growth that we should be having. We invite them to invest in their own economy because government is investing big bucks in the economy of our country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Rationale underpinning South Africa’s international relations strategy

19.          Mr M S A Masango (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

 

In light of the country having been consistent in advocating for the resolution of conflict through dialogue and peaceful means and the promotion of mutual friendship among the nations of the world in line with the premise that all nations have a shared responsibility to collectively improve the human condition, will he share with the House the rationale that underpins this international relations’ strategy and its effectiveness in advancing the national interest as well as the African Agenda?                                         NO3986E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT Speaker, this year marks the 60th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter, which is clearly the bedrock on which our democratic value system is founded. The Charter affirms that, “South Africa and its people unequivocally pledged to respect the rights and sovereignty of all nations,” and to recognise the independence and the right to self-determination of African countries or nations.

 

The Draft White Paper on South Africa’s Foreign Policy elaborates on this theme. It says:

 

As a beneficiary of many acts of selfless solidarity in the past, South Africa believes strongly for what it wishes for its people, should be what it wishes for the citizens of the world. ... In pursuing our national interests, our decisions are informed by a desire for a just, humane and equitable world order of greater security, peace, dialogue and economic justice.

 

We are an African country whose fortunes are inextricably connected and linked with those of our sister countries in the region and on the continent. Our foreign policy engagements are therefore anchored on the African agenda. Paramount to the achievement of this agenda is the social and economic development of a continent and promotion of peace, security and stability throughout the continent.

 

South Africa has been actively involved in initiatives such as the Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, and the plan of implementation of the World Summit on Sustainable Development. We have been centrally involved in development and implementation of a number of key instruments that have emanated from our continent. Some of those instruments are the Constitutive Act of the African Union, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, Nepad, the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, and the Protocol Relating to the Establishment of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union.

 

At the level of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, we have been actively engaged in offering its principal development and regional integration instruments. South Africa has been part of Africa’s effort to restore peace and stability in strive to warn countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, Burundi and the Republic of Sudan as well as South Sudan.

 

The values that have guided our foreign policy engagements have led to the expansion of bilateral relations with other countries on the continent, and have also led to enhancing trade and investment. While we can proudly celebrate the work we have done in the international sphere, we are acutely aware of the developmental and security challenges humanity faces.

 

We are nevertheless convinced that the approach, we as the country have taken and forged relationships with the rest of the world, remains valid, relevant and progressive. It is an approach that recognises the reality that states are indeed interdependent. It is an approach that promotes cooperation over competition and collaboration over confrontation. It is an approach that that advances the national interests, while advancing the common interests of all nations. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr M S A MASANGO: Ngiyathokoza Somlomo. Angithokoze Isekela likaMmongameli ngehlathululo edzimeleleko. Ngijama naye iveke namalangana. Umbuzo-landelela wami uthi: ... [Thank you Speaker. I also want to thank the Deputy President for the clear in-depth explanation. I fully concur with him. My next question is: ...]

 

... To give effect to the Freedom Charter’s principle that says, “There shall be peace and friendship,” how far has South Africa worked collaboratively and/or in solidarity with other countries, institutions or multilateral organs to realise this peace-making and peace-enforcement vision?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we, as a country, are actively - and I could say deeply - involved in the process of peace making on the African continent. We do this under the aegis of the AU, and there we are ably led by one of our very own, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, who, as one of our own, has injected quite a lot of energy and life in what the whole of the continent is now doing.

 

We now participate in a number of countries: Like, the DRC, Sudan and a number of other countries. We are therefore called upon to come and participate largely because a number of African countries, the regional bodies and the AU itself have indeed realised that we have something to contribute.

 

As we do this, we do it with great humility: Never imposing ourselves; we never putting ourselves forward; never seeking to gain anything; and never seeking to gain our own interests. Our interests – yes - are to promote peace and security on the continent, and have the opportunity to promote investment and trade, with a view of fostering the success and development of other countries also, as we do that for ourselves.

 

So, we are deeply involved in various initiatives. We were honoured as well, when our President was asked to chair the infrastructure thrust of the continent, and in that regard, he has been doing well also. Our former President, Thabo Mbeki, was also honoured, and our country was honoured in that regard, for leading a process of dealing with issues of the flight of capital from our continent. Therefore, we are deeply involved in a number of ways on the continent, and as I said, we do that with a great deal of humility.

 

Another thing that one would say is that: We would wish that all of us as the leaders in our country, when we have to travel to various other parts of the African continent and indeed the world, we should all join each other, exercise our patriotism and speak positively about our country, like others do when they travel overseas and speak positively about our country. [Applause.]

 

Now, this is an open invitation to the people that sit on the other side of the House, that: When you travel, don’t go and badmouth the country; instead, go and speak positively about your country. [Applause.]

 

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy President, you have referred to the AU key instruments. One of them is article 10 of the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance which was adopted by the Assembly of Heads of States of the African Union in January 2007. It imposes a duty on state parties to entrench the supremacy of their Constitutions. We have seen in recent months that the leaders in the states of Burundi, Rwanda and the DRC have pushed through the constitutional amendments, in efforts to seek the extension of their term limits in office. This has become a catalyst for renewed political conflicts.

 

Mr Deputy President, it seems that South Africa’s foreign policy is clueless and immoral at best, and chaotic at worst. So, the question is: What is your government’s policy on working to prevent the African Presidents violating their constitutional term limits? [Interjections.] Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you took care to read what is in the Freedom Charter, you would immediately have an answer to your question. Our policy stance in relation to various other countries: Is based on the respect of those countries’ sovereignty; it is based on the respect of their self-determination; and it is based on what was also adopted in the 1950s in Bandung, on noninterference in the internal affairs of other countries. [Interjections.]

 

Having said that, what we do, acting with others in a multilateral way is: Where we find that there is slippage on this and that - maybe in various principles, like democratic principles - we use our powers of persuasion. This is because in the end, persuasion is the best diplomatic tool that one can use: Being able to discuss; to have dialogue; and to cooperate with others. Where, for instance, we are invited to give our views, we do give the views that we hold on to, and those that are deeply embedded in our Constitution. We give the views that we adopted when we passed our own Constitution.

 

Therefore, when you say that we are clueless, I don’t know what you mean by that because our international policy is based on having a clear direction, which is expired and informed by the Freedom Charter, by our Constitution and by our policy document as adopted also. So, we do what we have to do and lead our country in navigating the various challenges that we come across as we implement our foreign policy. Our foreign policy is very progressive; it cannot be faulted. [Interjections.]

 

Those who fault our foreign policy do not know what diplomacy is all about. [Interjections.] [Applause.] We know diplomacy, we are well schooled in diplomacy and we are actually implementing the best foreign policy that this country has ever had. [Interjections.] This country has never heard a clear foreign policy; that is what we are implementing. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mong N S MATIASE: Motlatsa Mopresidente, ka hobane o se o kile wa ya Lesotho makgetlo a mmalwa, ke nahana hore o tla tseba seo ke tlang ho se hlalosa. E re nke ke o tlabole hanyenyane hee! Mosotho o re: Matlo a matle diotlwana. O bolela hore o ke ke wa tloha ha hao, wa ya ha monna e mong, mme ha o fihla teng wa fiela lebala la hae empa o sitwa ho fiela la hao.

 

Ke bua tjena ke hobane mesebetsi ya hao le ya puso ya hao, mane Marikana - moo o ileng wa dumella hore basebetsi ba bolawe le ho etsuwa dintho tse mpe - ... [Kena hanong.] ... e o hlokisa tokelo ya hore o ka tswa wa ya Afrika, kapa hona Lesotho, ho ya kopanya mekga eo e bang ha e utlwane ka puo bakeng sa ho rarolla diqabang tsa yona. Kahoo ... (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy President, because you have been to Lesotho a number of times, I think you will know what I am about to explain. Let me pose this riddle to you a little, there is a Sesotho saying that goes: The grass looks greener on the other side. This means you can’t admire your neighbours’ house while neglecting to make yours beautiful.

 

I am saying this because your work and the work of your government in Marikana – where you allowed for workers to be killed and maimed - ... [Interjection.] ... takes away your right to go out to Africa, or Lesotho for that matter, to go and try to bring together parties which are at loggerheads in order to resolve their conflict. Therefore ...]

... by your conduct in South Africa, you have dishonoured the trust and the confidence of the founding fathers who have called upon you and your organisation to tirelessly work for the unity of the African people.[Interjections.]

 

Now, my question is: How do you hope that you would be able to mediate without fear of self-contradiction and without you being so much conflicted? It is a fact that you are conflicted because you’ve got business interests just as your President has business interests in Lesotho. That is the reason that the Basotho people are fighting among themselves ... [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, do you have a question?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: My question is: How does the Deputy President hope to mediate for a permanent solution of the conflict in Lesotho, despite him being so much conflicted because of business-vested interests in Lesotho and those of his President?

 

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ntate Matiase, bomadimabe ke bona: Rona re le Mmuso wa Afrika Borwa re a bitswa. Ba a re kopa ba re, ‘Tlong kwano!’ Ha se nthwane eo wena o ne o ka e thabela hore o e sunye ho batho ba bang. Rona re a bitswa; re a kotjwa. Ba re, ‘Re o kopa hore o tle o tlo thusa, o kenye letsoho - o re thuse ho rarolla mathata ao re leng ho ona. Ntho eno ba e etsa ka hobane ba tseba mesebetsi ya rona re le Afrika Borwa. [Mahofi.] Ba a e tseba!

 

Ehlile, ba tseba le mesebetsi ya baetapele ba rona - baetapele ba rona ba sa qaleng ka nna le Mopresidente Zuma. Ba re tseba ho tloha kgale! Kgale mokgatlo ona wa ANC o na le baetapele ba neng ba sebeletsa Afrika kaofela, ba leka hore ho be le ho sebetsa hantle dinaheng tse ding. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

 

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Matiase, unfortunately it is them. We as the government of South Africa get invited. They ask us and say, ‘Please come!’ It’s not something that one would be happy about by involving oneself in other people’s business. We are called, we are asked to come. They say, ‘Please come and help us, give a helping hand – help us resolve the difficulties we are facing. They do this because they know our work as South Africa. [Applause.] They know!

 

Actually, they know the work of our leaders – our leadership which does not start with me and President Zuma. They know about us from long ago! Since long ago the ANC organization has had leaders who have been working for the whole of Africa, trying to establish harmony in other countries.]

 

So what you are saying about being conflicted, ...

 

... ke ne ke ka kopa hore o hlahise bopaki, o bo behe mona pepeneneng, re bone hore a na bopaki bo teng! [Mahofi.] Ke ile ka hlalosa kgetlong lane le fetileng, ke jwetsa mohlomphehi Malema le ena ... [Kena hanong.]

 

Mong J S MALEMA: Ke kopa o se ke wa nkenya! [Ditsheho.]

 

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ke ne ke hlalosetsa le ena, empa o re ke se ke ka mo kenya ka hobane tsena ha a batle hore a kenywe ho tsona! [Ditsheho.] [Kena hanong.]

 

Jwale, e re ke hlalosetse wena hee: Ha e ba o na le bopaki, bo behe tafoleng; o se ke wa bua ntho eo o sa e tsebeng. [Kena hanong.] Ka Sesotho hothwe: O se ke wa bua dintho tseo o sa di tsebeng; o bue nnete feela.[Kena hanong.] Jwale, ke batla nnete ho wena ntate wa ka. [Mahofi.] Ha e be nnete, e se ke ya ba mabarebare feela: O ntse o tsamaya hohle mona o bua ntho e seng teng; ebile o bua maka! [Ditsheho.] Tanki ntate. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[... I would like you to produce evidence, put it out in the open so that we can see that the evidence is there! [Applause.] I did explain a while ago, I was telling hon Malema and ... [Interjection.]

 

Mr J S MALEMA:Please do not involve me! [Laughter.]

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was also explaining to him, but now he is saying that I should not involve him because he does not want to be involved in these issues.] [Laughter.] [Interjection.]

 

Now, let me explain to you then: if you have the evidence, put it on the table; don’t talk about something you don’t know. [Interjection.] In Sesotho we say: Don’t talk about things you don’t know anything about; you must only tell the truth. [Interjections.] Now, I want only the truth from you, sir. [Laughter.] Let it only be the truth, it should not be hearsay only. You have been going around talking about something that is not there, telling lies even! [Laughter.] Thank you, sir. [Applause.]]

 

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ntate Matiase, bomadimabe ke bona: Rona re le Mmuso wa Afrika Borwa re a bitswa. Ba a re kopa ba re, ‘Tlong kwano!’ Ha se nthwane eo wena o ne o ka e thabela hore o e sunye ho batho ba bang. Rona re a bitswa; re a kotjwa. Ba re, ‘Re o kopa hore o tle o tlo thusa, o kenye letsoho - o re thuse ho rarolla mathata ao re leng ho ona. Ntho eno ba e etsa ka hobane ba tseba mesebetsi ya rona re le Afrika Borwa. [Mahofi.] Ba a e tseba!

 

Ehlile, ba tseba le mesebetsi ya baetapele ba rona - baetapele ba rona ba sa qaleng ka nna le Mopresidente Zuma. Ba re tseba ho tloha kgale! Kgale mokgatlo ona wa ANC o na le baetapele ba neng ba sebeletsa Afrika kaofela, ba leka hore ho be le ho sebetsa hantle dinaheng tse ding. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

 

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Matiase, unfortunately, we as the South African government always get called. They call us saying, ‘come here!’ It is not something which you would be pleased with and force it unto other people. We get called, we get requested. They say, ‘Please come help us, lend a hand – help us solve the problems that we have.’ They do so because they know our good deeds as South Africa. [Applause.] They know them!

 

Indeed, they even know the good deeds of our leaders – our leaders who started before me and President Zuma. They know us from way back! Since back then, this ANC organisation has always had leaders who serve the whole of Africa, ensuring that there is cooperation amongst other countries.]

 

So what you are saying about being conflicted, ...

 

... ke ne ke ka kopa hore o hlahise bopaki, o bo behe mona pepeneneng, re bone hore a na bopaki bo teng! [Mahofi.] Ke ile ka hlalosa kgetlong lane le fetileng, ke jwetsa mohlomphehi Malema le yena ... [Kena hanong.]

 

Mong J S MALEMA: Ke kopa o se ke wa nkenya! [Ditsheho.]

 

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ke ne ke hlalosetsa le yena, empa o re ke se ke ka mo kenya ka hobane tsena ha a batle hore a kenngwe ho tsona. [Ditsheho.] [Kena hanong.]

 

Jwale, e re ke hlalosetse wena hee. Haeba o na le bopaki, bo behe tafoleng; o se ke wa bua ntho eo o sa e tsebeng. [Kena hanong.] Ka Sesotho ho thwe: O se ke wa bua dintho tseo o sa di tsebeng, o bue nnete feela.[Kena hanong.] Jwale, ke batla nnete ho wena ntate wa ka. [Mahofi.] Ha e be nnete, e se ke ya ba mabarebare feela. O ntse o tsamaya hohle mona o bua ntho e seng teng, ebile o bua maka! [Ditsheho.] Tanki ntate. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[... I would like to ask you to show your evidence, show it here in public, so that we can see if indeed there is evidence! [Applause.] I did explain the last time, explaining to hon Malema as well ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Please don’t involve me! [Laughter.]

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was also explaining it to him, but he says I should not involve him because he does not want to be involved. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

 

Now, let me explain it to you then. If you have evidence, put it on the table, do not talk about something you do not know. [Interjections.] In Sesotho it is said: Do not talk about something you do not know, only tell the truth. [Interjections.] So, I want the truth from you, hon member. [Applause.] Let it be the truth, not just rumors. You have been going around talking about things that do not exist and, actually, you are lying! [Laughter.]]

 

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, how does South Africa’s recent flouting of an International Criminal Court, ICC, arrest warrant in the Al-Bashir debacle impact on our standing in the international community of nations? Are we now being seen as a country that cannot be trusted and which is not in good faith in terms of international agreements? How do you intend to repair our internationally damaged reputation in the wake of the Al-Bashir debacle?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The answer is no; our international standing is intact. [Interjections.] It is clearly intact. The President will soon be travelling to the UN for the general meetings. Whilst he is there try to make yourself into a fly on the wall ... [Laughter.] ... and watch the President being feted, being received and being called upon to meet various other heads of state. Our President and South Africa is really popular. It is the darling of the countries of the world. [Applause.] Whenever President Zuma travels they want to meet him.

 

There are times when he asks me to deputise on his behalf, and whenever I meet other heads of state they always say, where is my brother Jacob Zuma? Where is my brother Jacob Zuma? Pass my greetings on to him. So, that is a clear indication. If you could make yourself into a fly on the wall, I would invite you to do so when he travels to the UN. Thank you.

 

Particulars regarding bilateral engagements aimed at improving economic growth

 

20.          Mr N Singh (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

 

In view of the context of the current national effort aimed at exploring a new innovative way of growing the economy, as well as his recent visit to Japan, what have been the successes of the current national effort and the specified visit that he undertook, as well as the names of other countries that have been identified for this type of bilateral engagement aimed at improving the prospects of economic growth in the short and long term?                       NO3989E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, South Africa’s engagements with other countries aim, among other things, to increase bilateral trade and investment. They also provide an opportunity to share experiences on economic, social and technological development.

 

The recent visit to Japan for example, aimed to strengthen relations with Japan and to identify opportunities for collaboration in the areas of innovation, technology transfer, minerals beneficiation, renewable energy, advanced manufacturing and agroprocessing.

 

On our recent trip Minister Naledi Pandor was there, as was Deputy Minister Cele, Deputy Minister Masina and a number of other key government officials. We went there to sign a number of agreements, particularly on the technology transfer side. The Japanese can teach us a lot but so can we, and that is the type of exchange that we had gone to seal there.

 

The visit contributed to the advancement of Africa's agenda by further strengthening the Tokyo International Conference on African Development partnership. This partnership promotes trade, investment, growth and infrastructure development on the African continent.

 

The Japanese government undertook to assist South Africa with its energy diversification efforts by transferring energy-saving technology to our country. It also committed itself to advancing the implementation of the joint study on economic co-operation and undertaking training programmes to upskill South Africans in line with our black industrialists programme.

 

South Africa undertakes bilateral engagements with a number of other countries around the world to promote trade, investment, skills and technology transfer, and also to promote broader economic growth and co-operation. These engagements have resulted, among other things, in deepening business linkages between our country and those countries, and increased investment in South Africa.

 

Japan stands out as one notable one, where after we met the business community they said that they wanted to invest more in our country. The 130 Japanese companies that are here almost in unison said that they are here to stay because they found South Africa to have the stability they require to foster their investments. We also have agreements on scientific and technological co-operation, and the general promotion of South Africa as a desirable investment destination.

 

These engagements also provided an opportunity to learn from the experiences of other countries that have been successful in pursuing economic growth and social development. South Africa’s economic success depends in large measure on its ability to grow foreign direct investment, and significantly expand and diversify its exports. This makes such bilateral engagements even more important and more valuable. So, these trips are really valuable because they give us a great opportunity.

 

Lastly, let me say that we also had an opportunity to meet a number of South African students who are on scholarships in Japan. They have learned the Japanese language and they are now doing their masters degrees. These are young men and women who are doing extremely well and all of them almost in unison said they want to come back home; they will be ready to come back home with their skills and they will come to work for the further development of our country. That is something we can be proud of. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

The SPEAKER: The hon Mncwango?

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I just want to make a correction. I was at your table earlier to inform you that the hon Esterhuizen will be taking charge of the follow up question on behalf of the hon Singh.

 

The SPEAKER: The hon Esterhuizen?

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Deputy President, whilst I do agree that favourable relations with other countries must be encouraged as a way of positively growing our economy and addressing critical skills shortages, my question is, in the huge delegation to Japan, which included officials from the SA Nuclear Energy Corporation, Necsa, how do you justify seeking to attract essential skills from Japan in the fields of science and technology, and especially in the field of nuclear energy, while we have them right here in South Africa? In fact, yesterday I was advised by a senior official at the Koeberg Nuclear Power Station that South Africa already has skilled nuclear scientists that are amongst the most highly qualified in the world. As a matter of fact, the Safari-1 training facility at Koeberg sponsors nuclear science at the University of Cape Town that attracts students from all over the world. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was really scratching my head in trying to take in what you have said and I couldn’t believe that I was hearing you saying that because we have got these, don’t send others away. Now, let me tell you that those young men and women who are in Japan are all black. They are all black; they are coming back with great skills; and many of them will tell you that when they started off with their learning process they did not find it easy to be so well received in South African institutions. Now they have chosen to go and learn elsewhere.

Putting that aside, there is nothing wrong with anyone going overseas to go and learn something new. That is something that can be quite defining and life changing. We are a multidisciplinary type of country, or learning processes must be multidisciplinary. We must involve everyone who knows something, even those who have learned overseas and those who have learned locally. We should never put brakes on young people who want to go and learn elsewhere and say to them they should not go to Japan and they should not go to England because we have enough.

 

I will tell you something else; when we started training – and I hope you are listening hon member – actuaries in our country, a university professor asked me, why should we train more actuaries when we already have 450 in the country? However, only one of them was black, and I said we need actuaries and we need black actuaries. It was only then that the penny dropped for him and today we have almost 50 black actuaries and 70 more in the pipeline. We are increasing the number. [Applause.] Now, if we had listened to him and the type of statement that you are putting forward, we would have stopped in our tracks and our young black people would never have had an opportunity to be trained. So, we have broadened and opened up the places of learning because we want our young people to learn wherever they can learn. The whole world should be a place where they can go and learn. We should never restrict them. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Madam Speaker, with respect that is absolutely not what I asked the Deputy President. I actually asked why he went head hunting there, not to send students over there. They tried to employ scientists.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Esterhuizen, can I proceed to the next person who is hon Hill-Lewis?

 

Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Speaker, I am so pleased that the Deputy President had a comfortable flight over to Japan for that trip. But in his response he mentioned a lot about investment and growing the investment relationship with Japan which I found very interesting because while he was there, the Minister of Trade and Industry was tabling the Promotion and Protection of Investment Bill here in Parliament which could better be dubbed the prevention of investment Bill. The Bill has as its genesis the replacement and cancellation of precisely the kind of agreements the Deputy President was trying to agree in Japan, the bilateral investment treaties.

 

This gives rise to two questions in relation to his recent efforts to build new bilateral trade relationship with Japan and the other countries he has mentioned. Firstly, why the Deputy President is establishing new trade and investment relationships with some countries, but his government is cancelling bilateral agreements with other countries? Could he enumerate for us which countries are good for bilateral agreements and which countries are not good? Secondly, does his recent effort not contradicts the purpose of the Bill tabled, which is to obviate the need for bilateral agreements? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, in pursuing our foreign policy objectives, the foreign policies underpinned by our need to grow investments as well as promoting trade in our country, we will  therefore, seek to enter into agreements with as many countries as possible. Agreements that were entered into in the past may need either to be streamlined, amended or to be improved. That is the process that is underway. The hon member should know that the Japanese business people will be here in a few days to hold a seminar which they have asked me to come and open. They are coming fast on the heels of our visit to Japan because they want to invest further here. Their investment or export promotion entity called the Japan External Trade Organisation, Jetro, is going to be holding a seminar here together with our own local businesses.

 

Why are they doing so? They are doing so because they want to further invest in our country. They want to deepen their own understanding of the investment environment in our country, and they want to form partnerships with a number of other companies in our country particularly your emerging black industrialists companies. Therefore, there is no hindrance in whatsoever particularly on the Japan side and indeed from any other country. Later, President Zuma and I will be travelling with Ministers to various other countries.

 

As we travel what we seek to do is to promote investment by those countries into South Africa and our trade dealings with them. Nothing else is going to deter us from doing so. If we have to enter into agreements we will do so, if we have to amend agreements we will do so with a view of streamlining those agreements that we have entered into. What you are dealing here with in terms of the legislation, go ahead and enable our ability to go and seek investments to come to South Africa so that we can create jobs. Thank you, Speaker.

 

Mr I MOSALA: Speaker, Deputy President, what investment plans has the Japanese business community and government committed in consolidating the objectives of the African agenda through the Tokyo International Conference on African Development partnership in promoting, firstly, increased investment growth and infrastructure development in support of the Agenda 2063? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, a number of initiatives are going to be considered at the next Tokyo International Conference on African Development, Ticad, meeting which is going to be held, I think, in Kenya. The Prime Minister of Japan is coming to the African continent together with a number of other Ministers from Japan. That meeting will also be attended by our President. A number of African leaders will get together and discuss the extent to which we can get Japan to co-operate on an equal basis with the African continent in fostering investment in a number of areas particularly in trade as well as in infrastructure.

 

Japan wants a number of other African countries to trade with them. We are well placed because already we have up to 130 of these companies working here. We are a very strong platform to facilitate that type of economic activity for a number of other African countries. Japan is obviously also, on its own, looking at a number of areas where it can expand. We had great joy in testing out a vehicle that Toyota has developed in Japan which is powered by fuel cells. Fuel cells use platinum as a catalyst. They are going to be rolling out these types of cars in a big way. South Africa is well placed to benefit from this type of economic activity.

 

Therefore, Japan and South Africa and indeed Japan and Africa are going to continue strengthening their investment and trade ties. In our case, we want to strengthen our industrial base. They are warmly disposed towards helping us develop our own industrial base and development and also promoting black industrialists. We are well positioned with Japan, Africa is well positioned with Japan and we can look forward to a future where we have good relations with Japan as we continue to develop and grow our own economy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I think you have, in your last response, alluded to most of what I was going to actually ask. However, economic development and job creation go hand in hand. What role would you play in placing emphasis on the manufacturing industry for the purpose of our export and local consumption bringing in experts with skills from China and Japan to enhance the manufacturing industry in South Africa and place more emphasis on exporting to create more jobs, industries and entrepreneurs in this country as a result thereof, and including partnership agreements where South African or businessmen will own 51% to maybe 49% of those that are investing in the country which will actually stimulate and create economic development in the country? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, all of the above is precisely what we want to do and foster. We were fortunate enough to be accompanied by a fairly large business delegation of a fairly serious businessmen and businesswomen of our country who participated in a business round table in Tokyo. They were able to exchange views and ideas and some of them were even able to finalise contracts and deals that they were busy with. It was actually a joy to watch that. As they travel with the President and the Deputy President on these trips, it is not just paying lip service to joint travel, but it is actually something that leads to business deals that in the end will lead to export to outside our country and investment into our country. There is a great deal of benefit in that regard.

 

But other than that, one of the things that we have learnt is that other countries have been able to develop their own economies by studying what other countries have done. We know for a fact that for China to get to the level where they are, they actually travelled around the world and saw how other successful countries had gone about growing their own economies. Deng Xiaoping was one leader of China who went around a number of countries such as France, Japan and a number of places to see how they are running their economies. He went back to China and turned China around with regard to what he had seen and learned.

 

We’ve told them our story. We told them, as we travelled around, that we want to increase manufacturing in our country, and we want to industrialise our country. We found that they respond well. Many of them are willing to come and invest, and many of them are willing that we should go and learn their skills, management skills, technological skills and also to see how the innovative journeys that they have taken have led them to higher levels of growth. We are learning from that because we also want to be innovative, create new things and new industries with a view to growing our economy. We are at work, we are doing a lot of things, learning from others and our economy will take off and it will create jobs like you have never seen before. Thank you very much.

 

ECONOMICS

Cluster 5

Steps to inform young people and to promote science, technology and innovation careers

 

460.        Ms L M Maseko (ANC) asked the Minister of Science and Technology:

 

With reference to the National Science Week which was celebrated throughout the country from 1 to 8 August 2015, (a) what is her department doing to ensure that potential young scientists in rural schools and communities are (i) informed about the developments and possible careers in the sciences and (ii) encouraged to pursue the specified opportunities and (b) what is her department doing to support the Department of Basic Education in informing and stimulating teachers of the natural and life sciences about the fascinating developments in specified disciplines and the possible careers for their learners in science, technology and innovation?                                                              NO3968E

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, we have essentially five contact points or instruments that are utilised in order to reach young people and promote science, engineering, technology and innovation careers. The first will be a science engagement strategy that will be implemented by the department. It includes attention to learners but also addresses public engagement in science, engineering and technology. The second contact point is the Youth into Science Strategy. The third is reaching out to schools. The fourth contact point is using universities and science councils. The fifth is touching teachers and professionals working within the science, engineering and technology domain, or Set domain. Our intention is to make the science careers as attractive, relevant and accessible as possible to stimulate the interest of our young people in these careers and to enhance, broadly, South African literacy in science, engineering and technology.

 

We act, through these instruments, by producing and distributing books on careers annually to schools throughout the country. We distribute these through the National Science Week and through our eight science festivals that are held annually, as well as through a range of partnership arrangements with all provincial departments of education. We also will promote careers during the ministerial public-participation programmes and mount career exhibitions on a regular basis at the 34 science centres that are located throughout South Africa.

 

We also send science, engineering and technology role models to schools as career role models. They also mount career fairs and host speaking engagements at science centres and during science festivals.

 

With respect to a partnership with the Department of Basic Education, we adopted a new framework of actions to support their work in promoting science, technology and engineering. The following are some of the activities. We have the development of complementary educational materials, providing real-world examples to young people in schools and, of course, to teachers. We run summer and winter schools. We have talent-identification programmes. And, of course, in South Africa, annually, we have over 3 000 young people participating in the science, technology, engineering and mathematics Olympiads – or Stem Olympiads - and in competitions which are mounted by the Department of Science and Technology. So we have a range of activities intended to support teachers, improve their capacity in these scientific teaching domains and activities that make science exciting, accessible and interesting to young people in our country. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

 

Ms L M MASEKO: Thank you very much, House Chair, and thank you very much, hon Minister, for the elaborate response to the question. It shows that the ANC-led government and its Ministers are indeed doing a great job in educating us as members and the broader citizenry. This also ensures that science and technology are the way to go and will take the economy of the Republic of South Africa to greater heights. Hon Minster ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr I M OLLIS: Is there a question? [Interjections.]

 

Ms L M MASEKO: Keep quiet; it is none of your business. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, with the vibe that has been created by the National Science Week and the increase in the number of participants in the science weeks that have taken place in the country, we have seen that there is a demonstration of a lot of upcoming young scientists that are now interested in science and technology. Will the department have sufficient research chairs to absorb this enthusiasm and influx into science and technology? If yes, how many of such chairs are women? Thank you.

 

TONA YA SAENSE LE BOTEGENIKI: Ke utlwa baetapele ba bangwe bare ke botswa potso e ka gonne moemedi wa rona wa nthata, ga ke itse gore ke mang yo o ka ratang go dira le batho ba ba sa mo rateng. Ke solofela gore ba ba dirang le ntate yoo tlholang a nna fale, le bona ba mo rata jaaka le rona re batla go ratiwa. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I heard other leaders saying that I am being asked this question because the representative likes me; I do not know who would like to work with people who do not like them. I am hoping that those who are working with a gentleman that usually sits there like him as much as we would like to be liked.]

 

With respect to the research chairs, Chairperson, we have established six research chairs in the fields of mathematics, science and technology education. We have four in mathematics education, and two that are established in numeracy. These chairs have been established as a community of practice. They come together to share ideas, which are intended to enhance contribution to our objective of the national strategy for mathematics, science and technology education - a strategy developed by the Department of Basic Education.

 

With respect to the matter of gender, I am very pleased to be able to tell the House that just a year ago we announced the creation of 20 more research chairs in addition to the 157 that existed at that time. And we indicated that all 20 would be designated for appointment of women professors and researchers who fit the bill in terms of these important research chairs.

 

I am pleased to indicate that we received such excellent applicants that we indeed appointed 42 women research chairs in addition to the 20 we had announced. [Applause.] This showed us that our institutions are not transforming fast enough. They are not recognising women researchers, who are all based in institutions at present and should have been given this opportunity many years ago. Thank you very much.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, previously disadvantaged communities do find themselves currently disadvantaged and there is a serious backlog in terms of keeping up in terms of the delivery of infrastructure. The issue is: What is being done by your department, particularly in light of the new framework that you just spoke about with the Department of Basic Education, to ensure that the necessary infrastructure in schools, particularly laboratories, is made available? This is because without a comprehensive bottom-up approach to ensure that we go back to basics and cultivate the scientists that we want at school level, we are going to have serious problems trying to develop them in institutions of higher learning. That should become a priority. So, we want to find out if this new framework covers that and, if it does, what the relevant details are. And when can we really see laboratories being developed and built in schools, particularly in previously disadvantaged communities? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Well, I will attempt to answer, but I do think the question of the laboratories is something the Minister of Basic Education should answer. As you know, the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, is a school-building programme. The standard with respect to a school, which emerges in terms of the Amended National Norms And Standards For School Funding of the South African Schools Act, clearly stipulates that any new school built must have all the required facilities, which would include laboratories as well as libraries and media resource centres for technology studies. So, the new schools that we have seen built in the past few years have included such facilities.

 

With respect to my department, all that we can do is be of support where we are able. What we have developed, in line with assistance from a number of our research councils such as the CSIR, are very portable, exciting and useful science kits that we provide to schools. We also have a mobile science laboratory that we are able to deploy to schools that ask us to provide assistance.

 

I would like to see every school in the country, particularly every Further Education and Training-level school, having a science laboratory. But whenever we are asked to assist, we are able to provide the scientific equipment - the kits I have referred to. This includes all that you need for carrying out the basic experiments in the Further Education and Training phase of the curriculum: your pipettes, the basic chemicals and so on. But the prize is to ensure that every secondary school in the country has a laboratory and that every primary school has a facility where children can begin to get closer to science.

 

We are moving towards that. The rules and the laws have been changed in order to ensure that our schools are very different from the schools built under Bantu Education and that these facilities do exist. We still have a long way to go, but I am sure the Minister of Basic Education can provide you with the detailed statistics of the progress with the Asidi programme. Thank you.

 

Dr A LOTRIET: Hon Minister, you have referred to what you are doing to promote maths and science among pupils. I also have to commend you for the wonderful programmes that your department does have. I think you are really putting us on the map. However, there is a serious disconnect between the Department of Science and Technology and the reality of where the learners come from, in other words the Department of Basic Education.

 

We sit with a situation in that there is a regress in performance. There is a decrease in the number of learners doing maths and science. Although I know that you said that it was the Department of Basic Education’s responsibility, we have a problem where we have, for example Sadtu threatening to boycott the ANAs, or Annual National Assessments, the one instrument we do have to determine the quality and the level of our learners in terms of maths literacy.

 

My question to you, Minister, is: As a member of Cabinet, as the collective, what are you doing and what do you plan doing to get across the message that Sadtu cannot spoil the future of our children. The country needs students in maths and science, and there is a real threat that ... [Inaudible.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired. Hon Minister?

 

Dr A LOTRIET: ... all your wonderful plans will come to nought. Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Thank you very much to the hon Lotriet. Clearly, it is the intention of government to ensure that we do expand and increase the numbers of young people that are competent in mathematics, physical science and the life sciences. This is the reason why the Minister of Basic Education worked to develop the strategy that I have referred to, which I am sure the portfolio committee has been briefed on.

 

We are partners with the Department of Basic Education in implementing this strategy. But, beyond that, the activities I have referred to are seeing expanded numbers of young people coming into the Olympiad, writing the Maths Olympiad and, interestingly, doing exceptionally well in International Olympiad Competitions. We have the talent in our country. What we have to do is ensure that we expand all the resources, that we provide the necessary support and that we are absolutely clear that if we want to advance in innovation, in manufacturing and in the range of areas that were referred to earlier by the Deputy President, we have to get young people who are competent in maths and in science.

 

We work with teachers as well as learners. I have met enthusiasm. But what has been first prize for me has been the positive response I get from provincial departments of education. They are always supportive of our initiative and with us when we come into the various schools. So, we will continue with the message - make it clear to young people. I try to reach as many as I can to say to them: If you want South Africa to have a better future, if you wish to have a bright future, maths, science, engineering and innovation are the way to go. I see more and more young people really intrigued by these disciplines and keen to take up careers in these areas. I believe the future is very bright for science, engineering, technology and innovation. Thank you.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Chair, the reality, hon Minister, is that the majority of schools in rural areas and in townships do not have functioning laboratories. What will be done by both Basic Education and your department to ensure that schools at combined and secondary level have functioning laboratories equivalent to a tested career for those soon-to-be graduating from high school? The majority of these schools do not actually have proper functioning equipment that levels them on par and makes them competitive as young people and as such we are failing them.

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Chair, I do not wish hon Mbatha to be repetitive, but I must say that I agree with you, we do not have facilities in all rural schools, but where we can make a difference, we are doing so. I have come across several schools during public engagements or constituency programmes where I find the school has a space that is called a laboratory. It might have tables that are supposed to be where experiments are done, but there are no test tubes; the chemicals are very old; you do not have pipettes; there is no proper water supply, so, essentially, science cannot be done.

 

When I come across such a problem, I immediately send an intervention team – we have created one - and we assist the school in order to get the laboratory to the functional status that you mentioned, but we cannot continue in that way. First prize is we must ensure all the facilities are up and running. We are working together with Minister Motshekga to ensure that we do provide the necessary support and I can assure you, because I have visited the new schools that are being built, the situation is changing every day and it will continue to change because the ANC is absolutely determined that the doors of learning and culture in all domains shall indeed be opened to the children of this country. Thank you very much.

 

Particulars regarding importation of Chinese steel and department’s position on application for higher tariff protection

 

456.        Mr N J J van R Koornhof (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

 

  1. Has the Chinese import of steel into the country increased in the first quarter of 2015; if so, (a) by what margin and (b) what will the impact be of the specified increase on the domestic steel industry;

 

(2)      what is his department’s position with regard to the application made to the International Trade Administration Commission of South Africa by the South African manufacturers for a higher tariff protection in order to safeguard jobs in the South African steel industry?                                                                                                         NO3964E

 

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: House Chair, available statistics point to iron and steel imports increasing by 52,9% between the fourth quarter of last year and the first quarter of this year to reach a total of 544 269 tons. Of this total, 285 997 tons came from China whose imports increased by 53,3% from the fourth quarter of last year to the first quarter of this year.

 

China accordingly accounted for about 52,5% of South Africa’s iron and steel imports. The surging imports reflected in these figures threaten the sustainability and viability of the local primary steel industry, particularly as many of these imports are being landed at significantly lower prices than those prevailing for locally-made products. These have eroded the demand for local products and had even forced some local producers to sell some product lines at below cost.

 

Other factors, including underinvestment in plants and machinery, rising import costs, including with respect to electricity, have further eroded the competitiveness of domestic steel producers. Given the global glut of steel and the consequent falling prices, penetration of South Africa’s traditional regional export markets by other supply countries has also negatively impacted on our export of steel products.

 

Primary steel products until recently were imported into South Africa free of duty while the World Trade Organisation, WTO, rules allowed us to have a maximum bound rate of 10%. Twelve applications covering a number of product lines were submitted by a number of steel producers to the International Trade and Administration Commission, Itac. One of these applications covered an application for a tariff increase for galvanised and coated steel and this was finalised recently by Itac and, as required by law, I was presented with recommendation to raise the tariff to the maximum bound rate of 10% and I signed that off recently. That application included a set of conditions related to pricing and investment in job retention and also established a monitoring mechanism which includes the Departments of Trade and Industry and Economic Development to monitor compliance in this regard.

 

In addition, Itac will conduct a review of the duty structure to determine its impact on the industry value chain three years from the date of implementation with an immediate review of the tariff dispensation in the event of any default on the conditions. While the DTI agrees in principle to an increase of tariffs under the prevailing conditions of global over supply of primary steel products threatening our own local production, each tariff and antidumping application will be evaluated on its merits.

 

Overall, a balance is to be struck between protecting South Africa’s primary steel production, including by smaller steel producers, while ensuring that there is a competitively priced steel available to support downstream, more labour intensive and value added manufacturing. Thank you very much.

 

Mr N J J VAN KOORNHOF: Chairperson, thank you, Minister, for the reply. I think we have been overtaken a little bit by events since I posted the question on the Order Paper. However, this tariff increase is only limited to a number of ranges of steel. Will it be increased? Can you maybe comment on that? Further, by allowing this tariff, does it mean it will give the steel industry a green light to raise prices, or is it in the conditions not to allow it?

 

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Hon Koornhof, we are aware that other applications for other steel products have been submitted to Itac to raise the most favoured nation, MFN, duty, as I have said already, the maximum bound rate is 10%. We are also ware that other applications are being prepared for antidumping duties, which could potentially attract higher duties.

 

No, certainly they do not have the green light to raise prices. In fact, one of the conditions says quiet clearly that they may not raise prices as a result of the tariff increase. The tariff increases is intended to allow the local steel manufacturers to compete more effectively against imported steel products which will come in at a higher price, not to allow them to simply raise the price of their own products. Thank you very much.

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair, hon Minister, the essence of this question is actually about a tariff protection in order to safeguard jobs. Hon Minister, after ArcelorMittal was provided with the tariff protection that I requested, they still proceeded to lay off hundreds of workers. My question is not only the protection, but why provide big steel producers like ArcelorMittal with such kinds of tariff protection that will only serve to deny downstream manufacturers the benefit of cheaper global steel prices and I might add the benefits which they richly deserve after the very same ArcelorMittal price gouging? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Well, I did say that we have a task team that includes representatives from our department as well as the Department of Economic Development. We will be monitoring any practises with regards to job layoffs where there have been commitments that this will not happen, at least on any significant scale. Let me say also that we actually think that the atmosphere for the discussions about pricing policy have significantly improved under the circumstances that we find ourselves in. Over a long period of time we have been concerned about the pricing policies that have been followed by upstream steel manufacturers.

 

The fact of the matter is, I think that what we are facing is a real possibility of losing a significant part of South Africa’s primary steel production. If that happens, that would not be to the benefit of South African manufacturing. It would not be to our benefit to rely in the long term simply on imported steel. What we have to do is to defend the productive capacity in primary steel manufacturing while at the same time not allowing the primary steel manufacturers to simply shield behind the protection that we provide them with to raise prices. So, that is one of the very important conditions, as I mentioned already. Thank you.

 

Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Minister, it is amazing that you say the atmosphere for the pricing discussion is much better. To my mind, it is far worse. You cannot say to the steel industry on the one hand we will give you 10% protection and on the other hand demand a 10% discount. They’re no better off and neither are downstream manufacturers. And if you are demanding more than a 10% discount from them, then in fact they are worse off. So, I do not understand the argument that the pricing discussion is better now than it was a few months ago.

 

Indeed, Minister, you have targeted the steel industry for years as one of your primary targets for your dream of developmental pricing or basically just price controls. But now, if you look at what is happening in the steel industry; if you look at your loss in the competition case against Sasol; if you look at the mining industry which is on its knees, the platinum industry in particular, will the Minister now accept and concede that the dream of developmental pricing is surely dead?

 

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: No, indeed, I will not. I think that the point is that the longer term pricing policies of the primary steelmakers is something which we have not managed to crack. What I think I am saying - and I am not in a position to make any detailed announcements about where we are going – is that the conversation on the longer term pricing model is a lot more constructive than it has been for a very long time. I think it is precisely because the industry finds itself in difficulties and that it needs to work together with government in a way that it has never had to do before. That is one of the reasons that I think it has created a much more fruitful conversation between us.

As I have said before, our aim is to have a pricing policy from upstream steelmakers which provides competitively priced products to the more labour intensive downstream users of steel products - that remains our objective. We have built in, as I have said already, the protection that we provide to them. They are not allowed to use that as a shield to raise prices. They can use that as a way of withstanding a little bit better some of the competition which is coming from low cost imported steel, but not to raise prices to downstream steel manufacturers. That is the short term condition that has been attached and in the longer term we will continue to work with them around a more supportive and competitive price that supports downstream steel manufacturing. Thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Chair, notwithstanding the knee-jerk intention and response to protect jobs in the steel sector. For a very long time the Minister of Trade and Industry and many people from the ruling party have been saying that an impediment to industrial expansion is because of the import parity prices of ArcelorMittal, that it is overpricing its steel and metals and all these key industrial inputs.

 

Accelerometer is in crisis because of the global commodity prices and we are rushing to protect them through a tariff increase. Don’t you think that much more durable interventions could be renationalisation of Iron and Steel Corporation, Iscor, and state control and ownership of the strategic steel industry, so that we are able to then deal with that industrialisation question, which for a very long time, you have been saying is been prevented because of the import parity prices of metal steel? You are protecting them, but you have been complaining about them for a long time. Thank you very much.

 

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: No, I think that one of the principles of steel standby is that import parity pricing should not be the basis of pricing. We are looking at other models of determining the price of steel. We are negotiating with the steel manufacturers around that.

 

By the way though with the prices having fallen to where they are, import parity pricing probably means lower prices on the domestic market. But the fact of the matter is that we face a very imminent possibility that significant parts of local primary steel manufacturing would be lost in this economy. That would not be into the benefit of industrialization.  I am not sure that the fiscus has the R60 billion that would probably be necessary to compensate if we were to purchase from ArcelorMittal. Renationalisation without compensation is of course not possible under the Constitution that you swore to upheld when you came into this Parliament. Thank you very much.

 

Intentions regarding investigation of CEO, employees and board members of Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa

 

439.        Mr M S F de Freitas (DA) asked the Minister of Transport:

 

Will her department write to the President, Mr Jacob G Zuma, to request that the Special Investigating Unit investigate (a) the former Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa Group CEO, Mr Lucky Montana, (b) all other employees and (c) board members who the Public Protector found liable of maladministration and improper conduct in her report entitled Derailed with the view to determine criminal and/or civil liability?                                                                                              NO3945E

 

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I just want to respond to the question as placed at the right moment and a right time, and once various processes underway have progressed enough, appropriate action will be taken and the advice to be given to the President will crystallise then.

 

In the mean time, I just want to indicate to the House that the Board of Control of the Passenger Rail Agency of SA has commissioned a forensic investigation on various aspects, including maladministration and improper conduct by the former group chief executive officer, any employee and board members of Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa. Once investigations are finalised, I will look at the recommendations and decide on the way forward. On 1 August, before the Public Protector’s report was released, I also asked the Auditor-General of South Africa to investigate all allegations of maladministration and impropriety at Prasa.

 

Also, the Public Protector has made inter alia recommendations calling on the chief procurement officer to investigate all tender contracts above R10 million issued by Prasa since 2012.

 

I will be meeting with all concern parties to consolidate these investigations because members would remember that, I made reference to three areas of investigation and we need to consolidate these investigations into one because all these investigations are focusing on the same matters. Once this has been done and as usual, regular briefings will be provided to His Excellency President Zuma, to report progress on the said investigations. Whatever actions ensuing from that will flow from then on. Thank you.

 

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chair, the hon Minister replies confirms that indeed she is being derailed. If the wheels were not coming off, the Minister will be taking corruptions seriously as the only way to ensure that money lost is recuperated and that criminal charges are investigated through the Special Investigating Unit, SIU.

 

It is for this reason that her department ... [Inaudible.] problematic in following the previous chief executive officer, Lucky Montana, who appears like he would go unpunished, not to mention all the others with fake qualifications.

 

All these things were happening like run on train in respect to all the damage that has been caused. This vital state entity falls squarely under a preview and this forms a great narrative regarding this government’s lack of will to root out corruption. Where has the Minister been in all these, perhaps hiding one of the tunnels of the new locomotive hardly fit into. The Minister has an obligation to account for the mess caused and the head-on crash of Prasa. It‘s the Minister’s responsibility ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] I am asking why the SIU is the only way to get ... [Inaudible.]

 

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I don’t know which part of investigations that are ongoing that the hon member understands. I want to indicate to him that we are not following one individual. The intentions to root out corruption has always been the objectives of the ANC and we are not going to desist from doing that. I want to say to you, that as we speak, there are remedial actions that were already in place even before the Public Protector released her report.

 

I just want to say to you that there is nothing like head-on crash as you said, and all those type of things that you are talking about.

 

Mr K P SITHOLE: House Chairperson, does the Minister have a strategy to protect the State against the likes of Mr Montana, who after looting the State, is still demanding a golden handshake after being recalled?

 

An UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: Which one is that one?

 

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, as a government of the ANC and as a Department of Transport, we do have strategies to root out corruption, but I don’t know about what you are referring to. [Interjections.]

 

Mr C H HUNSINGER: House Chairperson, Minister, what are your plans and actual actions steps that will ensure that there will be consequence for the alleged guilty parties, such as ex-Prasa chief executive officer, Lucky Montana, and fake engineer, Daniel Mthimkhulu, amongst others? [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Prasa has laid charges against Mthimkhulu for fraud and corruption. I just want to indicate to you that based on the issues related to qualifications, as we speak, all boards and all agencies reporting to the Department of Transport are doing investigations with regard to qualifications, especially people in decision making positions.

 

I want to repeat what I said earlier on hon member, that as a government of the ANC and as the Department of Transport, we do have strategies in place to root out corruption. I also want to say to you that I am not going to go into the details of the case of the former group chief executive officer because as you know, he has gone through the legal process and I know that it will be incorrect for me to comment on that particular issue. I have made reference to the three investigations that we are doing.

 

You would also remember that the Public Protector has made a recommendation that some of the procurements be investigated by the chief procurement officer. Unfortunately, this week the chief procurement officer was not well and is off sick. We were busy with that particular process, engaging concerning how far we will be able to go to ensure that we can clean up the procurement challenges that we have within Prasa.

 

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: House Chairperson, Minister, can you confirm that as we speak while the opposition party’s is running in and out of the police station, calling press conferences for their normal cheap myopia political points scoring and reporting that government this and the other, can you confirm that our country is in good hands of the ANC national government with eight other provinces running and many municipalities are delivering services that millions of people are travelling daily, using the Autopax buses ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Freitas please; I can’t even hear the speaker.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: ... using the Autopax buses, Metrorail trains, Shosholoza are happily that in Mamelodi people are happy with the Autopax buses? Minister, can you confirm that as the concerns or challenges are been handled ... [Interjections.] by the ANC that including those challenges of Prasa are been stabilised towards normalisation that the programme of Prasa of locomotive as well as the coaches is on track? [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF TRANSPOR: Thank you very much, hon Ramatlakane. I just want to confirm that it is true that the government of the ANC is making sure that the services that are provided to the commuters and passengers in South Africa, especially in the public space are being provided. As we speak, the trains are running because the team of men and women who are competent and qualified, who are working in this environment, who have been working in any case for many years because we do have a pull of experienced managers and experienced technicians and engineers in the areas of passenger public transport.

 

So, it is important that I actually emphasis the interventions that have been made with regard to the Autopax buses that are running in Gauteng, but I also want to indicate to the House here that Shosholoza Meyl, Metro Rail, as well as the buses that are supposed to be faring our people are working on a daily basis.

 

I also just want to indicate you, hon Ramatlakane that the Railway Safety Regulator is doing a thorough study on the network, that is Prasa owned as well as Transportation Network, Transnet, owned to make sure that the challenges that we have experienced as a result of a metal and copper as well as the stealing of rail tracks that is actually being addressed after the interventions of repairs because you would know hon Ramatlakane that in most instances, the challenges that we have of delayed buses or delayed trains, is as a result of the theft of our rail tracks and we have been seeing the intervention through SA Police Service, SAPS, also of the railway police to make sure that we can be able to stem out the tide of the theft on our tracks. But we want to assure South Africans that our rail system is on track and the investment that the ANC government has made with the locomotives as well as the building of the new factory that will be at Dnata is an intervention, is an investment to make sure that we can address the more than 50 years of lack of investment in the rail sector.

 

And we also want to ... [Interjections.] Yes, more than 50 years of your lack of investment through your pervious governments in this particular sector. And that is why we are going to be building the factory to make it possible that we can build the trains locally.

 

And I want to say to you that once the report from the locomotives investigations of testing and commissioning is concluded; we would be then working together with Transnet and Department of Public Enterprises, DPE, to get remedial actions if any. So, hon members, the services that people of South Africa need are running. There are challenges, but challenges are being addressed as we speak.

 

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

 

NOTICES OF MOTIONS

 

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House –

 

  1. Debates

 

  1. the impact of Genetically Modified Organisms, GMO on our agriculture sector and future food security, and

 

  1. the potentially dangerous effects on health that this has on our people. I so move.

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the issue of sustainable and ethical hunting practices in South Africa, and

 

  1. how this could be aligned with the international standards taking into account the diversity in our historical, cultural methods of hunting. I so move.

 

Ms J EDWARDS: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. driven hunting and the practise’s impact on local wildlife. I so move.

 

Mr J J MAAKE: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the possibility of charging people who steal copper wire from essential services such as telephones, railway lines, electric power lines under the Sabotage Act. I so move. [Applause.]

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. that our mineral resources of coal, iron ore and manganese extractions are still being heavily constrained by insufficient rail capacity.

 

  1. the knock-on effect of this is stunting our economic growth and recovery, and

 

  1. the short and long term solutions to this challenge. I thank you.

 

Mr C D KEKANA: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the mechanism to deal with political intolerance at our high institution that has resulted in violence. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr R W T CHANCE: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the crippling effect maladministration has had on job creation projects such as the Gauteng Enterprise Propeller, GEP.

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, Nginikeza isaziso sokuthi uma iNdlu ihlala ngokulandelayo ngizophakamisa egameni le-EFF:

 

Ukuba leNdlu –

 

  1. Ibe nenkulumo mpikiswano –

 

  1. ngendaba yamasiko oMhlanga wezintombi lapho kusuke kuhanjwa kuyiwa kwaNongoma, lamasiko mahle kakhulu ngokuthi avuselela namasiko nezimilo zabantwana bethu, abazukulu.

 

  1. kodwa manje esekufanele sike sixoxe ngako sekunenento esingazi ukuthi isihlava esivelaphi lesi sokufa kwezingane ziya lapha emhlangeni nalomhayizo.

 

  1. ukuthi ake kubhekwe lamadoda amadala ahambe aye laphaya ephethe imithi egqabela izingane zethu. [Ubuwelwele.] Uhlanga loMhlabathi ake lisukume, likusukumele kuxoshwe lamadoda afune izingane zethu ezincane ngemithi ezihayizisa. Ngiyabonga. [Ubuwelewele.]

(Translation of isiZulu motion without notice follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. on the custom of the Reed Dance where the maidens go to Nongoma, these customs are very good in such that they revive the morals and traditions of our children and grandchildren.

 

  1. the accidents that are now happening and the incidents of hysteria by the maidens.

 

  1. And to look at the elderly men who attend the reed dance having strong medicinal charms to attract our children. [Interjections.] The King must take action, to chase away these men who attract our children with strong medicinal charms.]

 

Mr D H KHOZA: Sihlalo, I move ... [Interjections.] I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House –

 

  1. Debates –

 

  1. the qualifying criteria for National Students Financial Aid Scheme funding with special reference to the missing model. I thank you.

 

Mr L BASSON: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That this House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the Minister of Water and Sanitation’s proposal on acid mine water desalination plants across South Africa.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates -

 

  1. the critical shortage of social workers in our country which negatively impacts on the lives of the most vulnerable sectors of our society.

 

Ms N P SONTI: Sihlalo, ndenza isiphakamiso sokuba, xa le Ndlu ihlala kwakhona, ndiza kwenza isiphakamiso:

 

Sokuba le Ndlu ixoxe ngendawo yokujima [gym site] eyakhiwe eNtshona yeMarikana ecaleni kwendlela engabiyelwanga nelimaza abantwana kuba akukho mntu obajongileyo.

(Translation of isiXhosa motion follows.)

 

[Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that, in the next sitting of the House, I shall move:

 

That the House debates the matter of the unfenced gym that has been built on the side of the road in Marikana, which puts the children’s lives at risk because there is no one to supervise them.]

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of NFP:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the pressing need for state sponsored centres that will care will care for abandoned and elderly in the country. I so move.

 

Ms G K TSEKE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. working co-operation between national, provincial and local government to discuss the issue of purchasing of land to respond to the housing backlogs.

 

Mr M MABIKA:  House Chair I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. on the issue of the alarming in unlawful deductions from SASSA accounts which have a negative effect on pensioners; and

 

  1. the desirability of legislative intervention to curb such deductions. I so move.

 

Mr J J MACGLUWA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House –

 

  1. debates –

 

  1. the proposed relocation of the North West Province’s Vryburg Deeds Office. I so move.

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Akudlalwa phela la i-EFF kufuneka kubonakale ifikile lapha. [Ubuwelewele.] Ngalokho nginikeza isaziso sokuthi uma leNdlu ihlala ngokulandelayo ngizosukuma egameni le-EFF:

 

Ukuthi iNdlu –

 

  1. Ikhulume –

 

  1. ngendaba yabantwana abesuke beshonelwe abazali, othola ukuthi emndenini akasekho umuntu osebenzayo; nangokuthi
    1. izingane azinakho okokuxosha ikati eziko. Ngiyajabula ngoba nangu uNgqongqoshe ukhona weNhlalakahle ukuthi lezi zingane azibhekelelwe zingaze zigcine sezenza izinto njengokudla izidakamizwa nanokuthi zigcina sezihamba zintshontsha.

 

  1. Siyacela ukuthi usukume laphayana e-Chatsworth ku-ward 77, uKhansela uMathombi Mnyandu akafuni ukusukuma ayosebenza. Izingane zihleli endlini engawa noma inini.

 

  1. Sikhona ke njenge-EFF, asizile ukuzodlala. Sizosebenza. Indawo yabavoti bami eThekwini. Lalelani ngempela akudlalwa. [Ubuwelewele.]

(Translation of isiZulu motion without notice follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: We are not playing here, EFFs presence must be felt here. [Interjections.] Therefore I am giving notice that I shall move without that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move without notice on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House –

 

  1. Debates –

 

  1. About the children who have lost their parents, where you find that there is no family member employed in the family; and

 

  1. the children have nothing to prevent poverty. I am happy because here is Minister of Social development because these children who are not taken care of might end up doing wrong things like taking drugs and stealing.

 

  1. Please do something in ward 77 in Chatsworth, Councillor Mathombi Mnyandu does not want to work. Children stay in a house that might fall down any time.

 

(d)          We are present as EFF, we are not here to play. We are here to work. Durban is my constituency. Listen, we are really not playing. [Interjections.]]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): As we do that lets remind one another that we are not doing statements. [Interjections.] is there any other member who wishes to ... ANC?

Ms M V MAFOLO: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House –

 

  1. Debates –

 

  1. the role of women in our new South Africa since 1994 up to date. Thank you.

 

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

 

INFLUX OF SYRIAN REFUGEES TO EUROPE

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes the Syrian refugee crisis currently unraveling across Europe and the media;
  2. further notes that after four years of the civil war in Syria, 220 000 people - half of whom are believed to be civilians, have been killed, 7,6 million internally displaced and 4 million have registered or are waiting registration with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees;

 

  1. applauds the nations and families that have opened their borders and homes to the Syrian people;

 

  1. condemns the four-year long civil war and its effects; and

 

  1. calls for those on both sides of this conflict to seek an amicable solution.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon House Chair, we object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The motion falls off.

 

ONGOING CORRUPTION IN THE JOHN TAOLO GAETSEWE DISTRICT MUNICIPALITY

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes the ongoing corruption in the Northern Cape local and district municipalities, particularly the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality;

 

  1. further notes that the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality is a rural municipality in the Northern Cape, which serves some of the most marginalised people of the province, with very few opportunities for development;

 

  1. notes that in 2013, when former President Nelson Mandela passed on, provinces and municipalities were requested to make it possible for the public to view the proceedings of the funeral;

 

  1. further notes that the John Taolo Gaetsewe Municipality was forced to appoint a company owned by Wandile Bozwana to provide screens for the viewing in the entire district, this was a result of Mr Bozwana colluding with Mayor Mosikatsi and the Municipal Manager, Doreen Bokgwathile;

 

  1. acknowledges that this service was never rendered, and afterwards the company director, Wandile Bozwana, demanded that the council endorses his invoice for the services he claimed to have rendered - for which there is proof that he never rendered;

 

  1. further acknowledges that Mr Bozwana took the municipality to court, and with the influence that he has over municipal managers in the Northern Cape province, and the MEC of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, Alvin Botes - managed to intimidate municipal officials not to testify against him in court, and as a result, the court ruled in his favour;

 

  1. acknowledges that the corrupt ANC politicians in that district municipality agreed to the suspension of the chief financial officer, CFO, in the municipality because he was fighting corruption by Mr Bozwana; and

 

  1. calls on the Minister of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - if he has the courage of his convictions, to act in rooting out corruption in the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Ms R M M LESOMA: We object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There is an objection, the motion falls away.

 

SOUTH AFRICA’S LOW RANKING IN THE GLOBAL AGEWATCH INDEX 2014

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes that the Global AgeWatch Index 2014 has ranked South Africa in the 80th position out of 96 countries when measuring the health status of the elderly;

 

  1. also notes that the index measured the wellbeing of older people in four key areas, namely income security, health, personal capability and an enabling environment;

 

  1. further notes that abuse of the elderly is rising in South Africa and includes financial, physical, psychological, social, sexual abuse and neglect - all of which in many circumstances is an unspoken of or underreported crime; and

 

  1. finally notes that with South Africa’s rapidly ageing population, it is estimated that by 2031 the population aged 65 years and over will nearly double - which means that the problem of elderly abuse will become even bigger in future; wherefore, we call upon this honourable House to -

 

  1. express it’s disappointment at the low ranking of South Africa on the global scale; and

 

  1. take a stand against elderly abuse in whatever form; and

 

  1. encourage communities to take care of the elderly

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Do we have any objections to the motion?

 

An HON MEMBER: We object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The motion is objected to, the motion falls off.

 

COMMEMORATE OF THE NATIONAL BOOK WEEK

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House ‑

 

  1. notes that South African commemorate the National Book Week from the 7 to 13 September 2015;

 

  1. further notes that the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture, Comrade Rejoice Mabhudhafasi launched the National Book Week and the National Book Week Tour,Basaf Emoyeni Conference Centre in Parktown;
  2. acknowledges that the National Book Week is an important initiative in encouraging the nation to value reading as fun and pleasurable activities and showcase how reading can easily be incorporated into one daily lifestyle;

 

  1. believes that the importance of reading in order to achieve success in life is fundamental for the individual and essential for nation building and social cohesion;

 

  1. remembers that each year, many people, including celebrities, lend their energy to our campaign; and

 

  1. congratulates the Department of Arts and Culture in collaboration with the South African Books Development Council for organising this year’s National Book Week.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto) Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, the EFF objects.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There is an objection. The motion falls off.

 

A CALL FOR CLEANING UP EKURHULENI METRO

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M WATERS: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes that the Executive Mayor of Ekurhuleni Metro, Cllr Mondli Gungubele, has identified the Kempton Park CBD and surrounding areas as an aerotropolis, which a city that is built around an airport, offering its businesses speedy connectivity to their suppliers, which the DA supports;

 

  1. condemns the current dilapidated state of the Kempton Park CBD, which is strewed with pot holes, some knee deep, uncollected refuse which is piling up on street corners and crumbling infrastructure;

 

  1. notes that the executive mayor has failed to respond to previous letters I wrote him regarding these issues;

 

  1. further notes that the CBD is in such an appalling state one can only call the aerotropolis as trashotropolis;

 

  1. acknowledges that, given its industrial strength, Ekurhuleni Metro can and must become an example of how a metro can create an environment that can ignite job creation; and

 

  1. calls on Mayor Gungubele to roll up his sleeves, take action and clean up his trashotropolis. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Chair, the ANC objects. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: [We object.]

 

Vho T E MULAUDZI: Mufarisa Mudzulatshidulo, ndi khou dzinginya ndi songo ḓivhadza:

 

Uri Nnḓu heyi –

  1. i ḓivhe uri muvhuso hoyu wa ANC wo laṱa vhathu tshoṱhe, nga maanḓa mayahani kha mavunḓu oṱhe malugana na u ṱhogomela dzibada;

 

  1. i ḓivhe uri dzibada ndi madindi, a dzo ngo taliwa na tswayo a dzi vhonali;

 

  1. i dovhe i ḓivhe uri nga mulandu wa u sa vha na dziḓaraṱa, dziphukha dzi khou vhanga khombo dzibadani;

 

  1. vhathu vha re na mimoḓoro vha khou badela muthelo tshifhinga tshoṱhe, fhedzi masheleni a hone ha khou shuma u thusa u ṱhogomela dzibada;

 

  1. arali muthu a ḓiwana o lenga u badela muthelo, ndi wonoyu muvhuso une wa gidimela u mu farisa tshi no konḓa, ngeno vhone vha tshi balelwa u ṱhogomela dzibada, a hu na zwi no khou itwa;

 

  1. mivhuso na mimasipala kha i shumise masheleni a mithelo u ṱhogomela dzibada na u vhona uri hu na dziḓaraṱa.

(Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows)

 

[Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

 

  1. notes that the ANC government has completely abandoned the people, especially with regard to roads maintenance in rural areas in all provinces;

 

  1. notes that the roads are full of potholes, they are not marked and signs are also not visible;

 

  1. further notes that because there are no fences, animals are causing many accidents on the roads;

 

  1. motorists are paying taxes all the time, but the money is not spent on roads maintenance;

 

  1. if you delay the licence disc renewal, the same goverment will be on your case while it is failing to maintain the roads, it’s just a waste of time;

 

  1. the goverment and its municipalities must use the licence disc renewal money to maintain the roads and to put fences.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Mr G S RADEBE: Ri khou hanedza. [We object.] [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is that an objection? [Interjections.] The motion falls off.

 

DEATH OF THE HIGH COURT JUDGE HASEENA MAYAT

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms CN MAJEKE: Chairperson, on behalf of the UDM I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes that the South African judiciary and the people of South Africa, are mourning the death of the High Court Judge Haseena Mayat, who passed away on Monday, 7 September 2015;

 

  1. further notes that Judge Mayat has been described as a very committed, humble person, and one of the pillars of the Gauteng Division of the High Court;

 

  1. acknowledges that she was a brave, smart and decisive jurist in handling difficult cases, and she has served the nation with distinction;

 

  1. believes that the country has lost a leader, a warrior and a role model in the legal fraternity; and

 

  1. conveys its condolences to the family and friends of Judge Mayat and the legal fraternity.

 

Agreed to.

 

BARBARIC KILLING OF WILD ANIMALS DURING GAME HUNTS

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, on behalf of the IFP I move without notice:

 

That the House -

  1. extends its greatest concern in the barbaric killing of wild animals during the so-called game hunt, which is currently underway in South Africa’s private reserves;

 

  1. notes that this cruelty of animal killings involves tracking the beasts and then drive them, towards hunters waiting on special platforms. Though legal, it is cruel as animals are often only wounded and then left to die a slow and painful death;

 

  1. further notes that this brutality comes just over two months after a lion was killed by an American recreational game hunter in Zimbabwe causing a global outcry against inhumane hunting;

 

  1. acknowledges that more than 18 animals were killed during this time including gemsbuck, eland, wildebeest, warthog, impala and the duiker; and

 

  1. congratulates the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, SPCA, for successfully obtaining a warrant to gain access to the farms. They can bring charges against the organizers if they see the signs of cruelty towards animals during the hunt.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Is there an objection to the motion?

 

Mr K Z MORAPELA: House Chair, we object.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Obvious, as usually, but ...

 

... asisamangali vele, Sihlalo. [... we are obviously no longer surprised, Chair.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In the light of the objection, the motion falls off.

 

DRUG FACTORIES IN KWAZULU-NATAL DISCOVERED AND CLOSED BY POLICE

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chair, another good story to tell. [Interjections.] On behalf of the NFP I move without notice:

 

That this House —

 

  1. notes that the SA police has revealed that 10 drug factories operating from upmarket suburban homes and holiday flats in KwaZulu-Natal have been discovered and closed by police this year, with more than R30 million in drugs ceased;

 

  1. also notes that these suburban drug laboratories are found in Margate, La Lucia, Ballito, Hillcrest, Pinetown and one in an upmarket flat at the Point waterfront;

 

  1. further notes that the lucrative drug trading in KwaZulu-Natal which is supplied by three suburban factories are controlled by three main syndicates dealing in crack, cocaine, hydroponic-grown dagga as well as sugars and whoonga;

 

  1. finally notes that the closure of these drug laboratories come about as a result of the tireless work of Captain Devan Moodley, a senior narcotics investigator and his elite crime unit within the Hawks; wherefore

 

  1. calls upon this hon House to congratulate Captain Devan Moodley and his team on the success in shutting down suburban drug laboratories which are fuelling the drug trading in KwaZulu-Natal; and

 

  1. encourages communities to join the police country wide in their fight against the scourge of drugs which is tearing away at the social fabric of our country.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Is there an objection to the motion?

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: Re a ganetša. [We don’t support the motion.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In the light of the objection, the motion falls off.

 

THE WORLD COMMEMORATES FOETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME DAY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Chairperson, on behalf of the PAC I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes that at 09:09 today on 09 September, the world commemorates Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, FAS, day. Alcohol related problems can include deformities, mental retardation and learning disabilities;

 

  1. further notes that the date of 09 is to emphasise to women the importance of not drinking alcohol for the nine months of pregnancy, as the alcohol that they drink, enters the bloodstream of the foetus and causes permanent damage to the unborn baby;

 

  1. also notes that rural areas in Western Cape and towns in Northern Cape are the hardest hit by FAS. It does however, affect babies born in urban areas with prevalence in teen pregnancy and young moms;

 

  1. acknowledges that an estimated 25 000 babies are born with FAS every year in South Africa and that FAS is the main cause in severe mental disabilities and stunted physical growth in babies. A large number of undocumented cases;

 

  1. further acknowledge that FAS is preventable and 100% avoidable;

 

  1. calls for continuous intervention, education, counselling initiatives for young and old mothers and information for empowering communities and enabling them to deal with this cause;

 

  1. further calls for the serious look into mental health in our country. Greater investment and focus is needed in the area of mental health.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Is there an objection to the motion?

Mr S P MHLONGO: The EFF objects. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. ANC?

 

QUADRIPLEGIC CHAELI MYCROFT REACHED THE SUMMIT OF MOUNT KILIMANJARO

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes that the 21 year old Chaeli Mycroft, a student from the University of Cape Town and her team of climbers on Thursday 03 September 2015, reached the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, making her the first female quadriplegic to do so;

 

  1. further notes that the disability activist is the core founder of the non-profit Chaeli’s campaign;

 

  1. recognises that the climbing group had been planning the Kilimanjaro trip for two years before travelling from Cape Town to Tanzania, late in August 2015;

 

  1. recalls that Mycroft who has cerebral palsy, was awarded the 2011 International Children’s Peace prize. In 2012 she became the first ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Laureate's Medal for Social Activism;

 

  1. further recall that she was also a youth key note speaker at the 2012 Unisef conference in Paris on inclusive education. In 2013, she was awarded the world children youth award in New York;

 

  1. believes that Chaeli is a source of inspiration and a role model to the young people with disabilities. She is also a living example to people with disabilities that they can also reach and fulfil their dreams; and

 

  1. congratulates Chaeli and her team of climbers for their tremendous achievement.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Do we have an objection to the motion?

 

Ms V KETABAHLE: The EFF objects.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, the motion falls off. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon Van Der Merwe?

 

The hon member: Makuyekwe! [Let us drop this.]

 

NGOS PROVIDING VITAL SERVICES ON BEHALF OF THE STATE

 

(Draft Resolution)

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, on behalf of the IFP I move without notice:

 

That this House —

 

  1. notes that many NGOs providing vital services on behalf of the state and effect positive changes in our communities and that these organisations are in deep crisis with many, unable to raise funds;

 

  1. acknowledges that civil society organisations such as the Treatment Action Campaign, play a crucial role in raising awareness on HIV/AIDS. – Well, an NGO dignity dream is lobbying support for the 2 million young girls in our country who miss 60 days of schooling each year because they cannot afford sanitary towels;

 

  1. further acknowledges that a decline in South African civil society sector is likely to exacerbate poor service delivery and an increase in social ills;

 

  1. accepts that by investing in civil society, we are investing in a brighter future; and

 

  1. calls on government and South African businesses at large, to make more money available to civil society and for South Africans to get involved by volunteering their skills to these organisations.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Do we have an objection to the motion?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, the EFF objects.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The EFF objects. That falls down.

 

THE GOUDA WIND ELECTRICITY GENERATING FACILITY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

  1. notes that the 138 megawatts Gouda Wind Electricity generating facility became fully operational last week; and
  2. further notes that the facility was built by listed infrastructure group Aveng and its partner Acciona Energia of Spain for Eskom at a cost of R2.7 billion; and

 

  1. acknowledges that the Gouda Wind facility situated onshore in the Drakenstein Municipality of the Western Cape, consists of 46 wind driven power turbines of 3 megawatts each, and will generate about 400 gigawatt-hours, GWh, of electricity, sufficient to provide power to about 200 000 homes a year; and

 

  1. further acknowledges that Aveng has also constructed the 250 hectare Sishen solar plant, which consists of about 320 000 solar photovoltaic panels which produces 216 GWh of electricity, equivalent to the consumption of 100 000 South African households a year;

 

  1. calls upon this honorable House to congratulate Aveng on completion of the Gouda Windfarm; and

 

  1. encourages Eskom to continue support for further development in renewable and eco-friendly electricity generation capacity to reduce our country’s reliance on fossil fuel based electricity generation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: I object. [Laughter.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice becomes a notice of a motion on the Order Paper.

 

HORRENDOUS WORKING CONDITIONS OF FISHERMAN AND WOMEN

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr N P PAULSEN: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes that the treatment of fisherman and women who continue to be subjected to horrendous working conditions in the coastal seas of the Eastern Cape; and

 

  1. further notes that the white monopoly capital continue to make it impossible for local black fishing companies who want to enter the industry, even to a point of threatening with violence; and

 

  1. recognises that during several engagements with the leadership from local Fishing Industry Bargaining Council representing fisherman and women from Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality, Knysna, Jeffrey’s Bay, Tsitsikama and other parts of the coast. It has become clear that there are unspeakable levels of abuse of black workers. At times workers are not paid even when work has been done, but only get threatened by violence. There is no compensation for occupational injuries due to collusion by some unscrupulous doctors and fishing companies;

 

  1. further recognizes that police have bungled a case of a white boat owner who shot and killed a black worker, and the Humewood Police Station have failed to do an investigation; and

 

  1. calls on government to stop colluding with white monopoly capital by hiking fees to obtain fishing permits;

 

  1. further calls on the Humewood Police Station to investigate a murder case as a matter of urgency.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

Mr M MABIKA: House Chair, we object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can you please talk. Don’t talk like that. Just simply say you object.

 

Mr M MABIKA: House Chair, we object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice becomes a notice of a motion on the Order Paper.

 

STEPTEMBER, ANNUAL MONTH FOR RAISING AWARENESS OF CEREBRAL PALSY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms K DE COCK: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

  1. notes that 1 September 2015 ushered in Steptember, a month annually dedicated to raising awareness of – and raising funds for those living with Cerebral Palsy;

 

  1. further notes that in less than 10 days, Steptember 2015 has raised $1.8 million globally; and

 

  1. encourages all South Africans to support this remarkable initiative.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?

 

MS MO MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice becomes a notice of a motion on the Order Paper.

 

Hon member, I have been asking people to go to the microphone. By raising your hand, I thought you wanted to come in. I have you on my list. Hon member, now it’s your turn to raise your motion.

 

COMPENSATION OF THE VICTIMS OF ASBESTOS MINE IN NORTHERN CAPE

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

 

That the house –

 

  1. notes the arrogance of the ANC government towards the voters and those who put them to power;

 

  1. further notes the arrogance of President Zuma and the Minister of Mineral Resource towards victims of Asbestos mine of the Northern Cape;

 

  1. acknowledges that despite numerous attempts by the victims and even by the South African Courts compelling government to compensate the affected communities, the ANC continues to turn a blind eye whilst prominent figures within the ANC and those loyal to them live a high life, benefitting from the same mines;
  2. also acknowledges that some of the victims died without receiving their compensation, with their hopes thrashed under the uncaring and corrupt ANC government;

 

  1. further acknowledges that these victims trusted the EFF Leadership enough by asking it to assist to get their compensation monies from Government;

 

  1. applauds the ex-mineworkers of Jeffco in the Kuruman area who refused to give up, and for their bold decision to continue to fight for compensation;

 

  1. calls on the government to compensate the victims of Asbestosis accordingly;

 

  1. further calls on the government not to further frustrate those poor communities and their families.

 

Mr SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Chairperson, NFP opposes.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice becomes a notice of a motion on the Order Paper.

THE LAUNCH OF NATIONAL RESEARCH FOUNDATION

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes the launch of the National Research Foundation, NRF, by the Minister of Science and Technology hon Pandor on Wednesday 2nd September 2015 under the theme: Critical Thought in African Humanities;

 

  1. notes that University of Western Cape, UWC, was chosen by the international panel as the recipient of the flagship. A process which consisted of the presentation of by UWC Centre for Humanities Research;

 

  1. acknowledges that the flagship was founded on the three research thematics: Aesthetic education, the Becoming Technical of the human and the Migrating Violence; and

 

  1. further acknowledges that the flagship will convene a public lecture series in Athlone, Cape Town and establish a Factory of Arts in the former District Six in an effort to engage further with members of the public;

 

  1. recalls that this flagship on Critical Thought in Africa Humanities is a planned platform scholarly exchange, artistic creation and public inquiry into African political subjectivity, art and society, and technology and the human;

 

  1. further recalls that the flagship is designed to hold scholars and students from South African universities, public institutions and national and international research bodies in a collaborative initiative to forge the next generation of humanities scholars, committed to the demands of building a post-apartheid South Africa; and

 

  1. congratulate the Minister and the Department of Science and Technology and all other role players on launching this new initiative on Critical Thought in Africa Humanities.

 

MR TE MALAUDZI: We object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice becomes a notice of a motion on the Order Paper.

 

FIRST AGROECOLOGY PROJECT UNDERTAKEN BY HORTICULTURAL AREA

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes that the first agroecology project undertaken by the Philippi Horticultural Area was launched on Saturday 5 September 2015;

 

  1. further notes that agroecology has been proven to be a more sustainable form of land usage as opposed to aggressive agricultural approaches that destroys the quality of agricultural soil;

 

  1. acknowledges that the Philippi Horticultural Area is the bread basket of the city of Cape Town, producing 150 000 tonnes of vegetables per annum;

 

  1. further acknowledges and commends the drivers of the project, Natalie McCaskill, Nazeer Sonday, Susanna Coleman and volunteers from across the Cape Flats for their commitment to saving this valuable area from the greed of the myopic City of Cape Town government;

 

  1. notes that this area is currently under threat to be used for housing purposes by the City of Cape Town, whereas the 40 hectare Rondebosch Common would be more suited for housing. At present the Common or as it was known by Khoi – Tsui-Goab - is being used by the surrounding community to walk their pets.

 

  1. further notes that the 572 hectares of Philippi Horticultural Area is ideally suited as an agrivillage where 250 families working in the area and living in the informal settlements, and if given 2 hectares of land, can be housed, feed themselves and engage in a sustainable livelihood generating activity instead of giving the land to developers to build gated villages for middle income groups.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, are there any objections to the motion? [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: He forgot to say white monopoly capitalists as usual. We have to ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No no no. Do we have any objections? Yes. In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion will now become a notice of motion on the Order Paper.

 

Are there any other motions without notice? The ANC.

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon House Chair ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chairperson, on a point of order. Who objected our motion?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The Chief Whip of the DA.

 

Ms H O MAXON: He didn’t.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Honestly speaking, he did at the end.

 

Ms H O MAXO: He didn’t.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): He did. Continue, hon member, I heard him. [Laughter.]

 

DEATH OF MR BIGBOY NELSON MASHEGO

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes with sadness the death of Mr Bigboy Nelson Moshego - a mathematics teacher at Khutsalani Secondary School in Kabokweni, Mpumalanga province - who collapsed while playing soccer on Sunday 30 August 2015 at Elijah Mango College sports grounds, and passed on at the Nelspruit Mediclinic on 31 August 2015;

 

  1. further notes that the late Bigboy Nelson Mashego was born at Mbonisweni Trust in Mpumalanga province on 20 July 1962;

 

  1. acknowledges that he received numerous awards at the Insikazi Circuit as number one maths educator;

 

  1. further acknowledges that he produced many academics around the community of Kabokweni and the entire destrict;

 

  1. remembers that Moshego, nicknamed Botsotso, was very passionate about soccer from his childhood and assisted the school as a soccer coach and a player for Kabokweni Old Crocks;

 

  1. believes that his death is a sad loss to the Mpumalanga Department of Education and the entire province;

 

  1. conveys condolences to his wife, Mme Sophy Moshego, his only son, Cyril Moshego as well as his two brothers and the Khutsalani Secondary School.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, are there any objections to the motion? Yes. In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion will now become a notice of motion on the Order Paper.

 

OFFENSIVE OR UNBECOMING LANGUAGE

 

(Ruling)

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon members, on Thursday, 13 August 2105, a point of order was raised during a debate on the Marikana Commission of Inquiry report by the hon B A Radebe, in response to remarks made during the speech of the hon J S Malema. I undertook to study the Hansard and return to the House with a ruling. Having had an opportunity to study the unrevised Hansard, I wish to rule, as follows.

 

The hon Malema said the following:

 

What this means is that the ANC government, with the influence of business politicians, in particular, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, premeditated the killing of mineworkers in Marikana. They engaged in what is known in law as “conspiracy to commit murder”.

 

The hon Malema further said:

 

Mr Cyril “Worker Murderer” Ramaphosa played a central role in influencing the police.

 

While the Constitution, hon members, affords Members of the National Assembly freedom of speech, this freedom is subjected to the Rules and Orders that the Assembly imposes on itself. Rule 63 states that no member shall use offensive or unbecoming language. This is a broadly framed Rule in order to allow as much freedom of speech as possible. However, remarks which reflect on the integrity of a member of this House or impute improper or unworthy motives or action to that member are unparliamentary. Such allegations can only be brought to the attention of the House by way of a properly substantiated motion, supported by evidence.

 

If accusations were to be generally allowed in debate in this House, they would not only undermine members in the performance of their duties, but would also undermine the image of Parliament, itself. It is worth reiterating that all members have undertaken an oath to uphold the Constitution and the laws of this country.

 

May I ask the hon Malema to stand? [Interjections.] Thank you. The remarks, hon Malema, are offensive ... [Laughter.] ... and derogatory to a fellow member of the House. The remarks cannot be regarded as being, in any way, parliamentary or acceptable. Hon Malema, will you please withdraw the remarks that the hon Ramaphosa was engaged in the conspiracy to commit murder and that he is a murderer?

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Cyril is a murderer ... [Laughter.] ... and Cyril participated in the conspiracy to murder workers.

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chair ...

 

HON MEMBERS: Sit down! Sit down! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema ... I will come to your point of order.

 

HON MEMBERS: Sit down, wena [you]! Sit down! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please, let me finish with the hon Malema. I will recognise you. [Interjections.] Please, hon Zulu! [Interjections.] Hon Malema. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Hon Malema ... [Interjections.] ... in other words, I ask you to withdraw, you reiterate what you said, and in this august House, you repeat that the hon Deputy President Ramaphosa is a murderer. Are you going to withdraw, hon Malema?

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Cyril Ramaphosa is a murderer and participated in the conspiracy to kill the workers in Marikana.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): So, you are not prepared to withdraw?

 

Mr J S MALEMA: You can take me to jail for that. Cyril has got blood of innocent people ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema, thank you very much.

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I will never withdraw that. I will never apologise to Cyril. Cyril must rot in jail.

 

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

 

Mr J S MALEMA: He is a murderer! He killed our people! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema, I asked you ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: And if you are going to use this Parliament to protect murderers ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema!

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I am not going to agree to ... So, why do you switch off my microphone if you want me to speak?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t want you to speak. I asked you to do one thing.

 

Mr J S MALEMA: But why did you ask me to stand up? Why did you ask me to stand up?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Because I asked you to withdraw.

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Then switch on the microphone!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! No, I’m not going to do that.

 

Mr J S MALEMA: So, I’m not listening to you, either!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: You don’t want to listen to me!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... will you please leave the House?

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I’m not leaving! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Will you please leave the House?

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I’m not leaving. I’m not leaving. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema, hon Malema ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Call those people to come and remove me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Those bouncers you have hired ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema, I am not there.

 

Mr J S MALEMA: ... to come and kill us here in the same way you killed people in Marikana! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Malema ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: Call them. I am not going anywhere!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... will you please ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I am not going anywhere!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Will you please leave ...

 

Mr J S MALEMA: I’m not leaving! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members ... [Interjections.] ...

The HON MEMBER: Uyihlo! [It is your father!]

 

Ms M S Khawula: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa ... [Ubuwelewele] [Thank you hon Chair ...] [Interjections.]]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): At this time ...

 

Ms M S Khawula: Mhlonishwa, ngiyabonga lapho ngaphambili. [Hon House Chair, I thank you in front there.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, no, no, no!

 

Ms M S Khawula: Ngubani uSgantsontso la? Ngubani uS’gantsontso? [Who is Sgantsontso here? Who is Sgantsontso?]

 

An HON MEMBER: Uyihlo! Iinto ezingenambeko. [Your father! You disrespectful people!]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, at this stage, I am going to ask the Serjeant-at-arms to come into the House and help us to remove the hon Malema from the House. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Chair ... [Interjections.] ... on a point of order, Chair. Chairperson! [Interjections.] Can I please be allowed to speak here? [Interjections.] Chairperson, can you please allow me to speak here?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu, I am dealing with the hon Malema, as per the process of the Rules of this House ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is no Rule ... Can I please speak?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... of the Rules of this House.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I speak here?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am not going to allow anybody to interrupt the processes of this House. [Interjections.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chair, the microphone is off. Chair ... [Interjections.] ... Chairperson! [Interjections.] Chairperson ...

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, order!

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chair ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I have been informed ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: On a point of order, Chair ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am busy with the process, hon member. Please allow me to ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: I just want to clarify something. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please! Order! [Interjections.] I have been informed ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: I am not talking to you, wena!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... by the Serjeant-at-arms that ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chair, but I am rising on a point of order!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... that the hon ... No, no. No, there is no order in this one.

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chair, it’s ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m not allowing ... and if you are not ... Alright, let me not even go into that.

 

Ms H O MAXON: It’s Rule 67, Chair!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me deal with what I am busy with. Let me not be disturbed.

 

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I have been informed by the Serjeant-at-arms that the hon Malema will not leave the House. Now, hon Malema, I have given you an opportunity to comply with a directive from the Chair, as assisted by the Serjeant-at-arms. As this conduct is now interfering with the ability of the House to conduct its business ...

 

HON MEMBERS: How? How?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... I now call upon the Parliamentary Protection Services to assist the Serjeant-at-arms to remove the member from the Chamber so that the House can proceed with its business. [Interjections.] Can I get the Serjeant-at-arms to assist us? [Interjections.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Why did you act as if you are celebrating? [Interjections.] Nothing! Cowards! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Hon ... May I please complete the process, hon Steenhuisen, if you will pardon me, and take your seat?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I will.

 

Hon members, a member who is removed from the Chamber in terms of subrule 2 is thereby immediately automatically suspended for the period applicable, as provided in Rule 54, and may not enter the precinct for the duration of the suspension. If I have to go to Rule 54 and read it to you, the suspension of a member shall, on the first occasion during a session, continue for five parliamentary working days; on the second occasion, for 10 parliamentary working days; and on any subsequent occasion, for 20 parliamentary working days.

 

Now, that is the ruling for today. Hon Steenhuisen?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon House Chair, I think you need to put the microphones back on.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh! My apologies.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I would like to address you in terms of Rule 52, if I may?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Rule 52. Yes, continue.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I believe that the hon Malema’s refusal to withdraw despite the request from you was a grievous offence in terms of the Rules and I think it was so egregious an offence that it didn’t warrant asking the member to leave the Chamber. I would advance, and I want to place on record, that I believe that Rule 52(b) should have been invoked by you rather than calling in the parliamentary protection services. There was no disruption to the proceedings; there was no threat to anybody’s life here and I think that a more appropriate direction for you to have gone would have been Rule 52(b), which would have avoided ... [Interjections.] If you don’t mind, I am taking a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am listening to you. Please, hon members!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I can’t hear you. I think Rule 52(b) would have been a far more appropriate way to do it. The situation which you have employed this Rule, is not the situation in which we envisaged when the Rules Committee discussed it. I already hear that the hon member there says it’s coming for me as well. [Interjections.] You can do it ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, you are addressing me, can we deal with this?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am happy for you to do it for me and you can do that whenever you want. Bring them in whenever you are ready.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Address me, hon Steenhuisen.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am addressing you, but it is very difficult to do so when I’ve got harridan screaming in the corner. [Interjections.] To say to you that I don’t believe that this has been the correct application to the Rules and I would like the DA’s view placed on the record. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, in this House, we have voted for a Rule that addresses such conduct that was displayed today by hon Malema. I have been following those Rules that we all adopted. Having said that, hon members, if there is anybody who is not happy with the ruling, we know what to do. May I say that brings us to the end of the business today and the House is adjourned.

 

The House adjourned at 18:13.

__________

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.      Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

 

  1. The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:

 

  1. Protection of Critical Infrastructure Bill [PMB 4 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 76).

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

National Assembly

 

  1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Additional Protocol to the Trade, Development and Cooperation Agreement between the European Community and its member states of the one part, and the Republic of South Africa, of the other part, to take account of the Accession of the Republic of Croatia to the European Union, dated 9 September 2015:

 

The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Additional Protocol to the Trade, Development and Cooperation Agreement between the European Community and its member states of the one part, and the Republic of South Africa, of the other part, to take account of the Accession of the Republic of Croatia to the European Union, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 

Report to be considered.


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