Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 05 Nov 2015


No summary available.








The House met at 14:03.


The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.








Position regarding provision of skills development training to SA citizens in terms of bi-national commission agreements


21.        Mr B H Holomisa (UDM) asked the Deputy President:


  1. Whether, with reference to the bi-national commission agreements that the Government has entered into with various countries, some of the specified countries are providing skills development training to South African citizens; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,


(2)         whether the specified training is provided at no cost to the national fiscus; if not, at what cost is the specified training provided; if so, how are such opportunities communicated to all South African citizens for equal beneficiation?                                                                                                    NO4715E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, many of the bilateral relationships that we have with a number of countries often provide for co-operation on educational matters. The Department of Higher Education and Training is the line-function department that is responsible for co-ordinating all these efforts – with regard to funding, to administration, to regulating national policy and to all these international scholarships. They also maintain a fairly good database. What they are doing is gaining traction on an ongoing basis.


Now, these training opportunities that we get take a number of different forms. The opportunities also differ with regard to the duration, the cost, the recruitment criteria and qualifications that will be obtained and all their logistical arrangements. As the President, the Deputy President and a number of Ministers travel to various countries, we always seek to open up opportunities for young people for training and skills acquisition. There are many examples and I’ll just cite a few. One example is the offer that we got from Algeria for the training of nine people on scholarships for the year 2015 to 2016. Another example is the agreement between South Africa and China for the training of up to 2 000 South Africans in various fields of co-operation. A further example, which is a great example, is that of Cuba, which started in 1996 as a solidarity programme offered by Cuba to provide 80 scholarships a year to students to study medicine, with the full costs being borne by the Cuban government.


In 2012 we reached an agreement with the Cuban government to expand this programme. In terms of the expanded programme, the South African government finances the costs of the programme. We now have over 3 000 South African students currently studying medicine in Cuba. Of the students sent to Cuba, over 460 have already returned and are now qualified doctors. Candidates for this programme are selected by provincial governments with a focus on candidates from disadvantaged backgrounds.


Human resource development is an increasingly significant element of our bilateral relations, and we are continuing to seek opportunities on an ongoing basis as we travel abroad.


One other country that has offered scholarships is Sweden where we are training a number of young people who are doing their Masters’ degrees in marine studies. Japan is another example where we are training artisans and a number of other Masters’ students. So these opportunities are what we seek out as we travel abroad so that our young people can be trained.


As I conclude, I was particularly pleased to address 1 500 of these medical students in Cuba, and I found that they were quite pleased with the opportunity that they have been given. They are all ready to come back home to act as our doctors. So these programmes do work, and we are benefiting a great deal from these overseas training opportunities. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Thank you, hon Deputy President. I am certain that you may recall...


...ngexesha wawungunobhala jikelele welinye iqela lezopolitiko... [...when you were the Secretary-General of another political party...]


... that as part of the preparations for a democratic government in 1992 I, together with the late Chris Hani, Tokyo Sexwale and Gen Mgwebi, facilitated and secured the training of former uMkhonto weSizwe, MK, and Transkei Defence Force, TDF, soldiers with the Indian government, amongst others. We now know that such programmes have enabled many to rise within the SA National Defence Force, the SANDF.


Given the industrialisation programme of the government and with specific reference to devastated towns and cities, wouldn’t it be advisable that as a country we enter into similar agreements in order to capacitate and expose our people to advanced technology to drive this noble programme?


Umzekelo nje ... [Just an example...]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa, I allowed you some extra seconds. Your time has expired, sir.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Yah, you should give me more time in my capacity as a former head of state, man. [Interjections.] Give me the benefit of doubt. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next time, hon Holomisa, try to be persuasive in the programming committee and Chief Whips’ Forum for time.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Holomisa: I seem to recall that time when you were a member of the ANC when together we crafted this type of course in which a number of our soldiers and future leaders of the SANDF were trained in India. With regard to your question: Yes, you are right. It is something that we are doing at present. We are sending a number of our people to various countries where they can gain a lot of technological know-how and managerial know-how. So, you are talking about something that we are already doing, and we are rolling this out in an extensive way. Thank you very much. We are waiting for you to come back. Thank you very much.


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, the binational agreements deal with a number of issues including trade. I’d like to focus on that for a second, if I may. Former President Motlanthe, in an interview this week, was quite scathing about the way that we treat our major trading partners and about the quite bizarre trend in the government and your party to actively alienate and antagonise our biggest trading partners.


Now, looking at your diary, you seem to tacitly agree with the former President, if one considers your work schedule. You have been working very hard to mend relationships with our biggest partners through these binational council agreements. Do you agree with former President Motlanthe that we are unnecessarily harming our relationship with existing partners by, for example, bungling the Agoa negotiations, or the African Growth and Opportunity Act negotiations, and the belligerent language adopted by your party at its recent general council? Could you use this opportunity today, Deputy President, to associate yourself with the former President’s sentiments, reconfirm our relationship with our major trading partners and commit the government to repairing the damage that has been done? Thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, what ... No mention of tea. [Laughter.] What former Deputy President Motlanthe was talking about clearly was ... [Interjections.] Yes, he was President for a while ... [Interjections.] He was talking about how the trade relations, be they executed through binational commissions or whatever, can actually be deepened. And that’s precisely what the President, what the Deputy President and our Ministers are doing right now.


A number of countries that were not our major trading partners are now our major trading partners. China, hitherto, was not our major trading partner. Today, it is our major trading partner. We trade more effectively with China because the relationship is based on win-win: mutual benefit that they can get out of the relationship and what we can get out of the relationship. We are also advancing our relationships with a number of other countries. In fact, we are deepening those relationships quite extensively.


The President will soon be travelling to another country. I will be going to Iran in a few days’ time ... [Interjections.] ... and the objective is to go and broaden our relationships.


Now, this is what we have committed ourselves to doing. The investments that are flowing into our country have not been going down; they have been going up. In fact, we have maintained good relations with many other countries. The Brics group – or the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa group – is one great success story for our country.


The fact that we are the smallest country in the Brics family testifies to the effectiveness of our foreign relations. We are a big hitter on the international scene ... [Interjections.] ... and we are much looked for by other countries, and many countries want to continue maintaining relations with us. But what we seek to do is to see what we can gain out of those relationships. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I noticed that this question was not related to the question here. It was a different question. I allowed it. It’s okay in that it was owing to the generosity of the Deputy President to provide information that is important to the House. I do want to remind members that they approved the requirements that supplementary questions must be related to the original question. I am reminding you. Let’s stick to that general process. Until you change it to an open-mic session, that would be great. But right now it has not been changed. Let’s try to stick to that.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, South Africa has been going around entering into bilateral agreements with various countries, but there is no mechanism of ensuring that these agreements do indeed benefit South Africans, leading to a situation in which, when these agreements have to be renewed, you find that nothing was done. What mechanisms are you putting in place to ensure that the country does quantify the opportunities by these bilateral agreements to benefit the people of South Africa and not the individuals?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. As you might have noticed, the Department of Trade and Industry is in the process of evaluating many of the agreements that we have entered into with various countries with a view to ensuring that those agreements are beneficial to us as South Africans.


Now, what we seek to do through our foreign relations policy is to make sure that, one, we promote our own national interests. Our national interests must be prominent, and we must get as much benefit as possible out of any relationship that we have with any country, whilst basing that relationship of good diplomacy, mutual respect and mutual benefits to both countries.


We are broadening quite a number of our regions as far as dealings with various countries. And, as we reach agreements, we are deepening those. We are making sure that they are as expansive as possible, they touch on investments, they touch on trade, they touch on training that we want to get for our young people, and, obviously, that they touch on a whole variety of areas. Some touch on energy co-operation, water co-operation and a whole range of other areas.


As you see Ministers and Deputy Ministers accompanying either the President or the Deputy President, they are at work. They are reaching agreements with all those countries that we travel to. The main objective is to see the extent to which South Africa can gain out of those agreements and those relationships. So we are working,...


...kwaye siyaqhuba, siqhuba kakuhle ... [... and we are moving forward, we are making good progress ...]


...in everything that we are doing internationally. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mr M S A MASANGO: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy President, arising from your recently highly successful visit to Sweden where a binational commission between the two countries was renewed, are you at liberty to share more information with Parliament on this binational commission? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, we are willing and prepared to share some details of what was arrived at or agreed to in this binational commission. This was the 11th time that we had this binational commission, which is chaired by the Deputy President and their Deputy Prime Minister. During the course of time we also had an opportunity to meet their Prime Minister as well.


The binational commission was able to discuss a variety of issues that had to do with the training of our students. We were able to extend the offer that they have made to us to train our students who are doing marine studies by a few more years. So that was wonderful. We also had the Minister of Water and Sanitation reaching an agreement on an exchange of information and an exchange of technology with the Minister of the Environment who happens to be the Deputy Prime Minister.


We also looked at the trade imbalance between South Africa and Sweden and we immediately put in measures to rebalance that imbalanced trade experience. We also looked at the issue of energy. We had an opportunity to look at how their energy architecture is set up. That too was an area in which we reached an agreement. So, we had quite a bit of time to discuss things at close range and we were able to reach good agreements with the Swedes.


The relationship we have with the Swedes is a mutually beneficial one. We are always seeking to find ways of extending the ways that we are dealing with each with a view to making sure that we both benefit out of the relationship. Thank you very much.


Current status of negotiations with South Sudanese former vice-president Dr Riek Machar


22.        Mr B A RADEBE: (ANC) asked the Deputy President:


With reference to various interactions which took place, such as a visit to Juba in South Sudan in June 2015, following the discussions with various groupings of the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) and the signing of the Arusha Agreement on 21 January 2015 in Tanzania regarding the reunification of the SPLM, which is aimed at addressing political, organisational and leadership issues, and in light of the recent decision by the Government of Uganda to withdraw its military force from South Sudan, what is the current status of the negotiations with the South Sudanese former vice-president and rebel leader, Dr Riek Machar?                                 NO4711E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, in August 2015 the parties to the conflict in South Sudan signed a peace agreement that set in motion the process to end the conflict in that young democracy. The signatories to the agreement met from 21 October 2015 to 3 November 2015 under the auspices of the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, or Igad in other words. The meeting was intended to resolve outstanding issues on the implementation of the permanent ceasefire and operationalisation of the institutions provided for in the peace agreement.


The signatories, consisting of the SPLM, or Sudan People's Liberation Movement, in Juba, the SPLM in opposition, and the SPLM composed of the former detainees, also discussed the timelines for the return to Juba of all the leaders belonging to these groups. The signatory parties committed themselves to building confidence and ensuring that security is provided to leaders and citizens in South Sudan.


These latest developments follow the signing on January 21 of the Arusha Reunification Agreement. The Arusha Agreement commits the SPLM to rebuilding and democratising the movement to promote national harmony and bring an end to the conflict that has engulfed that country. The agreement commits the movement to expediting efforts to end the war and to enhancing the values and the culture of democracy, unity and development.


According to the agreement, the SPLM leaders are required to formulate policies that allow a culture of tolerance and practice of internal democracy. In accordance with that agreement, that is the Arusha Agreement, preparations are now under way to convene an extraordinary national convention to discuss the constitution of the SPLM, its manifesto and code of ethics.


As members would be aware, Dr Riek Machar is the leader of the SPLM in opposition. He continues to be one of the significant stakeholders in the ongoing endeavour to bring peace and stability to South Sudan. As the co-guarantors of the Arusha Agreement, Chama Cha Mapinduzi of Tanzania and the ANC will continue to reach out to engage all SPLM factions and their leaders - Dr Riek Machar and President Salva Kiir - so they do note lose momentum and remain seized with the resolution of their differences through peaceful means.


I would like to believe that peace is just around the corner for South Sudan as all the parties are now beginning the process of working together to cement the peace that they have signed in various agreements. Thank you very much.


Mr M S A MASANGO: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy President, with the Juba administration having shown commitment to the agreement with the rebels by withdrawing Ugandan troops, have the rebels shown any commitment to the AU Agenda 2063, which says that there can be no development without peace and no peace without development? What is South Africa’s specific interest in the peace and stability of South Sudan? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Clearly, some of the motivating factors for the various parties in South Sudan to reach agreement include stabilising their country and bringing the conflict to an end. This is very much in line with Agenda 2063 of the African Union, AU. So, in other words, they are clearly embracing Agenda 2063, as enunciated by the AU.


South Africa’s interest in promoting peace and stability in South Sudan is clearly driven by our quest, as part of Africa, to have a continent that is stable, a continent that is peaceful, and a continent that seeks to develop its people and have successful economies.


We act in solidarity with a number of countries on the African continent that are facing challenges and difficulties, but in all this we are also, obviously, as a country seeking to promote our own interests. First and foremost, we are Africans and we must support and help other African countries that are facing challenges.


And, secondly, we are South Africans and we will seek to promote our own interests. What are our own interests? Our own interests are to develop our own people and to develop our own economy. There are quite a number of opportunities that are open in many countries on the African continent in terms of which South Africa can play a role. As it is now, our President is the lead champion of developing infrastructure on the African continent. Does he therefore have an interest as a leader of Africa to help with infrastructure development in South Sudan? The answer is yes. So, we have to support African projects. And in all this South Africa stands behind the notion of finding African solutions to African problems. This is what we are doing. We are finding those solutions and we are seeking to instal peace right across the African continent. In many ways we are being very successful, and South Africa is well received and well respected in many countries on the African continent. That is who we are as South Africans. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy President, arising from your response, I would like to know: To what extent has the Arusha Agreement been honoured by both parties? Also, linked to that question is the whole question of the reported violations of human rights. What is the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, Igad, doing to address the issue of the reported violations of human rights by both parties? I thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Arusha Agreement, which was underwritten and guaranteed by Chama Cha Mapinduzi of Tanzania and the ANC, is an agreement that is aimed at assisting or, better still, reunifying the SPLM and getting the different groupings of the SPLM to work together to rebuild their movement, to go back to Juba with a view to rebuilding SPLM structures in Juba, to ensure that they amend their constitution, and to deepen democracy in their own party and consolidate their governance structures.


This is what the Arusha Agreement was aimed at doing. It had a stop-and-stop-type of beginning. In the beginning, not all parties adhered to the terms of the Arusha Agreement. Things have now become a lot better in that they have now agreed to go back to Juba, which is part of what we had all agreed to, and in going back to Juba the process of reunifying the SPLM will now earnestly get under way. We are hoping that they will find unity in the various efforts that they have embarked upon.


In relation to the issue of human rights violations, the AU is dealing with the matter. The Obasanjo report was given to the AU, and they are dealing with it. It will be dealt with through Igad as well. We are hoping that the AU will deal with this matter in a way that will be satisfactory to all parties and that they will find a way of confronting the truth and finding reconciliation, even as all these things have happened in their country.


On our part as South Africans, we will be assisting them with the experience that we have had of truth and reconciliation in that they should be brave enough and courageous enough to confront the truth and also find a way of reconciling so that they can rebuild their country. This is the contribution that we will make to them. Thank you very much.

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy President, over 20 months of this conflict in South Sudan has caused human suffering and human rights abuses. People have been displaced, tortured, maimed and killed. Over seven ceasefires have collapsed.


You were tasked as a special envoy to mediate the civil conflict. However, the 26 August 2015 peace agreement, which was signed in Juba between President Kiir and Dr Machar, has since collapsed, leading to further and continuing bloodshed, internal displacement and famine. Why did your efforts to keep the agreement in place fail, and what steps will you take to remedy this failure and revive this essential peace agreement? I thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon member, I think you are obviously operating under a seriously wrong misconception, because I was never appointed a mediator. I am President Jacob Zuma’s envoy. No, he said mediator. He said to mediate. My task is not to mediate. My task is to ...


Mr S MOKGALAPA: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Could I read my question again to the Deputy President ... [Interjections.] ... so that he understands the context? I said, “You were tasked as the special envoy ...”


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I did hear that. The hon member did say that I was tasked as a special envoy to mediate. Now, I was merely correcting his misconception, because he is obviously labouring under a serious misconception. I am President Jacob Zuma’s envoy. The task of an envoy is not to mediate, but, in my case, to represent President Jacob Zuma. Now, the mediation process is being executed by Igad. Igad is working under the aegis of the African Union is the body and entity that is mediating that conflict. It is composed of the countries in the Great Lakes area. What we have been doing is to work with the SPLM, together with Chama Cha Mapinduzi. Now, the process is the mediation process which is led by the AU, and we have been working with the SPLM together with Chama Cha Mapinduzi. We have been focusing on party issues. We took the view – and they also took the view – that one of the key problems that they faced was the disunity within the SPLM. That is what led to the problems that they currently have.


So, the Arusha Agreement was what Chama Cha Mapinduzi and the ANC assisted the parties in arriving at. The mediation process is being led by Igad and the leaders in the Great Lakes area, and that is the effort that is meant to lead to permanent peace in South Sudan. Thank you very much.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, let’s not play with words. You are essentially there because there is a peace process that must be mediated upon. So, the central reason of your entire mission, even as part of the envoy, is mediation. Now, your record in any peace process is what is concerning. You presided over MTN as the chairman of the board for 10 years, and it squandered resources in many countries across the continent and quite recently in Nigeria, avoiding taxes to enrich you too. You presided over Lonmin which did the same thing in this country. That is basically thieving. How can you be trusted to ever preside over any peace process, including in the Sudan, seeing that the peace processes that you have presided over end up protecting ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, my point of order is that what the hon Ndlozi is doing is a tirade, addressing the Deputy President. He is not posing a follow-up question. He is not doing anything, but addressing him. [Interjections.] He is out of order. He has a new question ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, proceed, but mind your language.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: You mean the programme or my language?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mind your language. Proceed.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: My question is: Even the South African peace process that you negotiated has only resulted in the protection of capital, which continues to thieve to make you rich. What guarantees do we have that your involvement in the Sudan will not lead to the same thieving that you are famous for to protect capital, in particular white monopoly capital? [Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Speaker, yesterday the presiding officer explained to this House what it means to rise on a point of order. I am now rising on a point of order to say: The hon member is out of order, because he is addressing the Deputy President personally and not on the subject matter on the table right now. That is out of order. Thank you.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do the right thing, hon member. Address me.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I was waiting for you to rule.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I’m saying, “Address me.” You know that is what happens. You don’t address members personally.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Also, the people who are often protecting Parliament benefit from the thieving processes of capital. [Interjections.] So, in what way are you going to make sure and guarantee us and the people of South Africa that your processes ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Order! Order! Give a member a chance to speak. You object when they do the same thing to you. [Interjections.] Hon members, please allow the member to speak. [Interjections.] Go ahead, hon member.


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon Chair. It’s not about the language. It has nothing to do with the language. It has everything to do with the Rules of the House. It has everything to do with a point of order, which has nothing to do with what the Deputy President is talking about. The hon member is not following up with a question on the basis of the explanation by the Deputy President. The hon member is out of order. I request, Deputy Speaker, with due respect that members must not be allowed to make statements. They must follow properly the processes and procedures of the House. What the member is doing has nothing to do with the questions that the hon Deputy President is answering. Deputy Speaker, no matter how much they scream and shout, the bottom line is that we have Rules in this House and these Rules must be followed to the letter. I plead with you, Deputy Speaker.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you in terms of Rule 113(6), if I may. Rule 113(6) says: A member who asks a supplementary question may make a statement or express an opinion, but may not speak for more than one minute.


The hon Ndlozi is not out of order, and I would ask that you protect him as a member of the opposition ... [Interjections.] ... in putting his question to the Deputy President.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you may address the House. Hon Shivambu, why are you rising?


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I wanted you to rule that the intervention by the lady there, Ms ... uh ... Minister, to ...


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Point of order, I have a name. My name is Minister Lindiwe Daphne Zulu. [Interjections.] You’re not going to call me what you want to in this House. You’re not going to do that.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But I don’t know your name. [Interjections.] You can’t ... [Inaudible.] ... to know your name. I don’t know you. [Interjections.] I was saying that you must rule that out of order, because what the Chief Whip of the DA is saying is the correct interpretation of how the questions must be ... You can’t say: We can’t make statements when we’re doing questions here. We have every right to make statements. You can’t put your words in our mouths. You can’t tell us what to ask and all those things there. The Rules allow for that, so protect hon Ndlozi to ask the question and then the response must come from the gentleman who is answering questions now.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, point of order: I’ve read this Rule. This is pure opportunism from the hon Steenhuisen. [Interjections.] The Rule does not allow the hon member to impugn the integrity of the Deputy President. It does say that you can make a statement and that you can express an opinion, but it does not say you can impugn the integrity of a person.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, impugnation is in the eye of the beholder. What the hon Deputy President may see as impugning could well be valid political statements being made which fall within the ambit of Rule 113(6). [Interjections.] If you want to be President you’re going to have to get a thicker skin that you have, Mr Deputy President.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I do wish to state the following that the hon Ndlozi – and I am addressing this to your, sir – address the Chair and not the member - and, in this instance, it is the Deputy President - personally. You address the Chair and the issues before the House. That is the first requirement that we must do, so that the Deputy President himself does not feel he has to speak directly to you. Members must appreciate that that’s the reason why we have a Chair in the House. So, that’s the first request I want to make of you.


In the language that I said you should mind, you must not cast aspersions without substantiated allegations in what you are saying. That’s what I am talking about. So proceed and complete that thing, and it’s for less than a minute and you have chowed many minutes. Go ahead.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: How do we know that you are not going to preside over a peace process that thieves to enrich people who are ambitious to benefit from the thieving activities that you are involved in in Lonmin and in MTN, and also benefit those who are ambitious to also benefit from those thieving activities. Because, generally, the peace processes that you have negotiated thus far are empty of economic justice. [Interjections.] They only protect white monopoly capital. [Interjections.]


Deputy Speaker, I am done with my question. [Interjections.] You must go to the Hansard.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: He may be done with his question but he is answerable for his behaviour, and we are not done with his behaviour. [Interjections.] Deputy Speaker, the Rules of this House prohibit the use of offensive language. If hon members wish to make accusations against any other member of this House, let alone the Deputy President, they know they should do it by way of a substantive motion. [Interjections.] They are not allowed to impugn the integrity of another hon member, and the Deputy President is just as protected by the Rules as any other member of this House. [Interjections.] That member must be ordered to withdraw the unjustified accusations that he is making against the Deputy President. Thank you.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, the Deputy Minister of Justice at least should have been just enough to indicate which words the hon Ndlozi used are offensive in terms of the parliamentary Rules. It is a simple thing. To say that people are thieving is a fact. There are capitalist thieves. It’s a fact. He must indicate that, otherwise let us get the response ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] Gentlemen, please!


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, a person commits theft if a court of law finds them guilty of theft. [Interjections.] The hon Chief Whip of one of the small opposition parties there does not constitute a court and cannot make a finding on the commission of the crime of theft against the Deputy President when he is not a court of law.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Could you take your seat. Before you respond, hon Ndlozi ... Could I just say this: I will give you an opportunity. I do want to say to you that I alerted you to your language, not once – twice – and I expressly said that you can’t make statements that are unsubstantiated, and you proceeded in what I heard to do exactly that. However, I have requested the Table to bring us reference to your express language that I heard, so that we do it. And, I think, there are aggravating circumstances for doing it in spite of being asked not to do it – not once; several times. I will then wait for that to happen, and it will be put across to the House today. What is it that you wanted to say, hon member?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Members of the ANC stand on that platform every day – they make accusations. There is no court of law that has found apartheid to have been a crime against humanity. [Interjections.] There is no court of law that has found the DA to be racist. [Interjections.] But they stand – all of them – and say: “the racist DA”, “apartheid, a crime against humanity” – you never take exception to that. [Interjections.] Please, be consistent. The Deputy President must answer questions. If he wants a substantive motion to prove that capital thieves, it’s there. MTN has been fined R72 billion in Nigeria, and he was the chairman. It avoided taxes and it has been fined. So, please, the Lonmin commission found that Lonmin avoided taxes as well. Please, be consistent. Stop saying those things to me. I have done nothing wrong. He must answer for the thieving of capital that he has benefited from and presided over.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have made a ruling and I am not going to change it. Hon Deputy President, you may respond.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. If one were allowed to be personal, which one is not allowed to be, I would have written the hon Ndlozi’s script. And maybe I would have written it a lot better than what he articulated. But, nonetheless, I think that in answering his question, one can very briefly say that in everything that we do, as the ruling party and the leaders of the ruling party, we seek to adhere to the principles that are enshrined in our Constitution. We seek to adhere to values of behaviour. And where there is weakness or fault, we will always seek ways of correcting that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Steps to be taken by Government to address insufficient funding of universities


23.        Mrs C Dudley (ACDP) asked the Deputy President:


  1. In view of the severe impact that the insufficient funding of universities will have on the National Development Plan, which places education at the centre of efforts to deal with unemployment, inequality and poverty and the systemic problems the country will have to deal with as a whole, what steps will the Government take to prioritise solutions to the specified challenges which threaten to become a full-blown crisis;


(2)         whether the Government intends to implement measures such as increasing the tax to be paid by successful businesses in order to address the problem of university education funding; if not, what suggestions does the Human Resource Council intend to submit to the National Treasury in terms of reprioritising university funding?                                                                                                                         NO4713E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the issue of the funding for higher education in our country has clearly taken centre stage in the past few weeks. We want to welcome the fact that this issue has been prominently raised, in fact, sharply raised, by our students who have been protesting against the proposed fee increases as well as a number of other things. They have taken steps, and many of the steps that have taken were disciplined, and we as their elders and their parents must listen to what our young people are saying.


This matter was also extensively discussed at the Second National Higher Education Transformation Summit that was held in Durban on 15 October, which I had the privilege of opening. It was to address this very critical issue that President Jacob Zuma convened a meeting on 23 October with vice chancellors, chairpersons of university councils, presidents of SRCs and student organisations. As we all know, the meeting agreed that there would be no increase in university fees in 2016. Government has also set up a presidential task team to consider the short-term implications for the 2016 academic year, including both the 0% increase and the current NSFAS funding shortfall, or the National Student Financial Aid Scheme funding shortfall.


The medium to long-term funding of the system also needs to be addressed. Clearly, this cannot be confined to university education, but must cover the whole post-school education and training sector, including Technical and Vocational Education and Training colleges, or TVET colleges, community colleges and training colleges.


The Department of Higher Education and Training has quantified the funding shortfall over the medium term to ensure that the National Development Plan’s targets are met for the baseline funding of universities and TVET colleges.


Parliament, acting through the Standing Committee on Appropriations, has been informed of the current underfunding of the post-school education and training system. Government will have to consider all the facts and consider how to reprioritise funding to ensure stability and growth of the system. It will also need to consider ways in which affordable higher education for all, including free education for the poor, can be made available.


President Jacob Zuma is considering setting up a commission that will deliberate on the long-term issues and make recommendations on all those issues. The developments of the past few weeks in many ways provide an opportunity for all social partners to find a way of working together to address the challenges in higher education in a substantial, sustainable and comprehensive manner.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Inaudible.] Deputy President ...


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Structures like the Human Resource Development Council also have a role to play in all this. So therefore, Deputy Speaker, we all have a great opportunity to participate in a process that can transform higher education in our country. It is an opportunity that we must take with both hands and play our role. Thank you very much.


Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy President, in sourcing additional funding to support students, is government considering the implementation of a fund-saving first-year bridging year across all universities and tertiary institutions, which will improve throughput, increase morale and make more tertiary education places available? And, if not, why not? What are the issues around that?


Then, of course, something that hasn’t come to the fore that is on everybody’s mind, or on many people’s minds: Have any steps been taken to ensure that students understand that their right to protest about funding or any other matter should be exercised with the utmost responsibility, ensuring that the rights of others are not violated in the process? And that you may or may not want to answer in terms of this question, but I do know that it is on people’s minds. Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We are hoping that through this process, which we expect all role-players to play a key role in, that we will be able to consider various propositions, including the proposition that the hon member has just put on the table. That is, by no means, the only proposition that is on the table; there are many others. What we are hoping for is that as many proposals and propositions as possible, including yours, hon member, will be debated and entertained until we find solutions.


I would like to believe that solutions are possible. If all stakeholders get together and put forward proposals, either to the commission that the President is going to establish or to a task team, that would be a great opportunity for all of us as South Africans to play a role without grandstanding, but with great responsibility, making sure that we do prepare really conducive ground for our young people to get a decent education – a decent education that is properly funded and in which children from poor families will be assured of getting a fee-free education at university.


Now, as we move forward, clearly we want to move all towards a free education, which will be costly but we have to find the solutions. In relation to the protest measures that young people have embarked upon, I think that in the main there was a great deal of discipline. The situation could have been much worse than what we experienced, and that is what all of us as South Africans must be thankful for – that, in the main, the students exercised great leadership. There was a lot of good leadership in a number of campuses, and there was exuberance in one place or another. In the main, the protests were fairly well contained and well controlled, and we expect that young people in protesting will continue to deport themselves in a disciplined manner befitting their stature as students of the Republic of South Africa who are learning in a democratic dispensation.


This is what I believe most of them are committed to, and in discussions they keep on saying that what they would like to see is their issues being addressed. Right now, their issues are being addressed, and we will address them until we find solutions. Thank you very much.


Dr H CHEWANE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The ANC is overseeing the largest displacement of young people as a result of financial exclusion from universities since 1994. The recent student protest was for the fees to fall, for the government to guarantee free quality education until the attainment of a first degree. The ANC, under Gwede Mantashe, then hijacked the struggle and made it look like it was merely about no fee increases. What steps are you taking to ensure that all the students’ demands for free education, the decolonisation of universities and the general transformation of the higher education sector are met? And also to substantiate: It seems negotiations always favour the Deputy President, because post-1994 he suddenly became a millionaire. So I want him to substantiate on what Commissar Ndlozi was saying. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I would like to believe, hon Deputy Speaker, that I have provided an answer to that question. I did say that regarding the matters that have been raised by the students, the President has met with the various role-players and said that he was giving consideration to setting up a structure, be it a commission or whatever, to deal with this matter. That means that the matter is being given consideration at the highest level. That structure will be able to have the opportunity to sit down and work with the students, work with the administrators of universities – the rectors, lecturers, the parents and various other entities that deal with education. It is through this structure that we will be seeking to find answers. We already have a plethora of proposals – many, many proposals indeed, coming from the students, coming from various bodies – and those proposals are going to be thoroughly debated until we find solutions. Clearly, Treasury and the private sector will need to play a key role in finding the money that is going to underwrite whatever decision will be taken in all this. So, work is being done and we will find solutions to all these issues. Thank you very much.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, let me first of all say thank you for your kind words that change is indeed coming to Nelson Mandela Bay. I can’t agree with you more there. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Yes, the DA will be coming on board, so thank you.


I hear you are speaking today about the fact that, “Look, we are the adults. There are opportunities where we can find solutions.” I want to say: Here is the first problem. Minister Blade Nzimande said it here. He said: “We need to find just R3 billion for next year.” I am saying to you: “We can wait for the executive and the process that you have outlined, and I don’t believe the executive must colonise Parliament anymore.” Parliament has the power, and in a few weeks’ time we are passing a budget. Can I give you a tangible solution that will at least deal with next year? [Interjections.] Can’t we cut VIP services? Cut R720 million from Dirco; can’t we cut that budget, finance the students for next year so that we can deal with the shortfall? Rather than having a very secure VIP-protected executive, let’s fund the students. Could we agree on that please, Deputy President? [Applause.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Maimane, that, to me, falls into the category of cheap shots. [Interjections.] It’s a cheap shot. The matter has to be addressed, and it has to be debated. [Interjections.] You must never think that you have a monopoly on ideas; you don’t. Some of the things, even much bigger things than what you are talking about, are already being considered. They are being considered. We are dealing with those issues. And, as we have said, in the end the executive has to play a key role in finding solutions to all these things.


Parliament, indeed, has to pass a budget, but the budget is initiated by the executive - the executive of the Republic of South Africa. That is where the process starts. So, as I said – and, maybe, people are not listening intently enough – all these matters are going to be given full consideration. And, through the process that the President is going to outline, we will be able to find solutions. What I can promise you is that we will find solutions for our young people. Our young people are our future and we have to secure that future. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Steps taken to address skills shortages with reference to artisans, technicians and engineers


24.        Ms M F Nkadimeng (ANC) asked the Deputy President:


In view of the fact that most business organisations recognise that South Africa is suffering from a shortage of skills, particularly with reference to artisans, technicians and engineers, what steps has the Government taken to address these specified skills shortages?                                                                                             NO4712E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, the training of artisans, technicians and engineers are key priorities of the Department of Higher Education and Training as well as the Human Resource Development Council, HRDC. Government aims to produce up to 24 000 competent artisans by 2020 as part of an effort to achieve the goals and targets that were set up by the National Development Plan which sees us producing up to 30 000 competent artisans by 2030.


Much work has been undertaken to consolidate and standardise the artisan training process. What we now have to do is to ensure that we train these young people. We have set up a national artisan development support centre to specifically manage this whole process. The significant investment in technical and vocational education and training, TVET, colleges is specifically aimed at, amongst other things, producing artisans in sufficient numbers with the skills and expertise our economy needs.


Government has produced a policy for public comment on artisanal recognition of prior learning. This policy focuses on the upskilling of workers who, for a number of years, have been working as assistant artisans without any formal qualification. It is also developing a strategy on the quality and improvement of trade tests and artisan development. There is ongoing engagement by the Department of Higher Education with artisan development stakeholders including business, industry, labour and other government departments to co-operate on issues of artisan training. The department has prioritised recapitalisation of the institute of national development of learnerships and strategies aimed at increasing graduate contribution for engineering is also under way. A joint engineering education working group between the Department of Higher Education and Training has also been established. So, many efforts are being made and taken to make sure that we produce as many artisans as we possibly can.


As I indicated earlier, when we went to Japan on an official trip, we managed to win an offer from the Japanese government to train quite a number of artisans in Japan on a funded basis and we will be sending those artisans to Japan soon. Many efforts are being taken and we intend to have many well-trained and competent artisans in the coming years. Thank you very much.


Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, I’m sorry. I don’t want to interrupt any of the speakers, but on a point of clarity: Maybe I counted wrong, but during the previous question by hon Dudley there were only two follow-up questions. [Interjections.] So, are we going to come back to that question? Shouldn’t we just complete it now?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, let’s proceed, hon member. I’ll come back to you. There were actually three questions.


Ms M F NKADIMENG: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you, Deputy President, for a prompt and elaborate response. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy President, given that we now have occupational teams established for identified occupation groups from key stakeholders, what role will the national Human Resource Development Council, HRDC, play in ensuring that the output of artisans, technicians and engineers from the various institutions of higher education is channelled on the informed advice of the occupational groups to key sectors of the economy and the public sector and that we don’t have a mismatch of skills being channelled to some sectors whilst other sectors, including the public sector, suffer shortages? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon member, we are, through the HRDC, involved in a process of working together with labour, government departments and the private sector as well as community-based organisations to finalise a comprehensive human resource development strategy which will be adopted this week. And in that strategy we will be outlining the number of steps we will be taking, building on the work that has already been done – work which enables us as government and enables the private sector to work with government to make sure that we produce well-trained artisans. This is playing itself out through the adoption of a number of colleges by the private sector where the private sector works very closely with TVET colleges where we are producing artisans who are going to have immediate positions in various companies that adopt these colleges and be able to get learnerships, internships and learning on the job. We find this to be most beneficial to young people who are in TVET colleges.


As we promote and encourage more and more companies to adopt TVET colleges, we are finding that we are deepening the process of the training of these young people to become really good artisans, because they learn their artisan craft on the job. We want to extend this to as many colleges as possible. The process has started and we hope that it will gather pace as we move right across the country. As it is, on Friday we are going to have our HRDC meeting at a college where this is already taking place and we are going to be launching another process precisely at that very same college. So, we are doing quite a lot of work and it is good work indeed. Thank you very much.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, the error pointed out by the member earlier on regarding Question 23, hon Hlengwa was the one to make a supplementary, according to the list that was here. If he has a supplementary question to Question 23 asked by hon Dudley, he may do so now. [Interjections.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I put it to you that, had the students not sparked the Fees Must Fall protests and the campaign, we would not be talking about this today and government would not have first said 6% and subsequently 0%, because it was way off your radar.


The issue is, in your election manifesto you promised free education. So, does it mean that you are promising South Africans a manifesto without a plan or a programme of action and you only wait for something to happen before you react? I put it to you that the 0% fee increment that you’ve proposed was a knee-jerk reaction in the absence of solutions and you are now scrambling around trying to allay and appease the anxieties of South Africans at great cost to the economy. So, why is it that you are promising in the absence of plans? Thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The action that was taken by students was action that needed to be heeded by the whole country. And it is for this reason that we should be thanking the students for raising this issue. [Interjections.] This issue of the funding of universities is a matter that government has been dealing with over time. And, in dealing with it, clearly we were a victim of our own success. [Interjections.]


We have succeeded enormously in getting so many students into institutions of higher learning - the very institutions that the previous government did not want them to get into – that those students are now in those institutions. Our response is not a knee-jerk response, our response is a ...

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I put it to you and the House that the Deputy President is deliberately misleading the House by saying that his government is a victim of its own success. There is nothing successful about the commodification of education and we did not see anything. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, when you say the Deputy President is deliberately misleading the House it is out of order and unparliamentary.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: How so?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is unparliamentary, sir.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: According to which Rule?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Read your Rules, sir.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Do you know what? You are deliberately misleading the House. The Fees Must Fall movement was a revolutionary movement aimed against everything that represents the ANC.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’m asking you to withdraw that statement.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Which Rule?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is offensive to say any member of the House is deliberately misleading the House. The Rule explicitly tells you that you shouldn’t do that.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We are asking for simple guidance from you.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The guidance, hon Shivambu, is that the member must withdraw his remark.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am saying we are asking for reference to the Rule. Which Rule says that he must withdraw?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I want you to withdraw your statement, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You don’t have a Rule?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this is ridiculous and I do want to say to you this is not kindergarten. [Interjections.] No member shall use offensive or unbecoming language. It is unbecoming to accuse any member of the House of deliberately misleading the House. I suggest you withdraw.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Is euphemism unlawful in this House?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please go ahead.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I withdraw that it is deliberate, but the Deputy President is misleading the House. The Deputy President is misleading the House in that the ANC is a victim of its own success. There is no such a thing. They never planned to give free education. It was always an empty promise. Students brought them to that kicking and screaming in that soprano voice of bra Blade Nzimande. They conceded ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your withdrawal must be unconditional.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s unconditional, but he’s misleading the House. That’s what I meant – not deliberately, but he is misleading the House. I withdraw the “deliberate” unconditionally and I resubmit that it was a misleading of the House.


Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I make an appeal to you to please prevent, in terms of the Rules, these altercations that are taking place between the hon Minister on that side and the hon member behind us here. It’s really not acceptable that they are having this kind of altercation while we sit here and we just can’t listen to what is happening. [Interjections.]


Mr G S RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I think these hon members must be disciplined. They must start by paying maintenance first before they come and make noise here. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order, hon member.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: As young as hon Ndlozi might be, it is quite out of order for this Minister – Minister of makiepkiep – to point at our member and say our member is nonsense. I’m saying to her that she is nonsense together with her leadership. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mokause ... hon members, this is bad. This is very bad and absolutely out of order. [Interjections.] The complaint by hon Singh is correct. Hon Minister and hon Mokause, I think it is incorrect for you to address matters in the House in the manner in which you are doing. I do want to insist that you stop that.


Hon Mokause, this is unacceptable for you. Even after being told not to do that, you still address people in the House in this manner. Can we stop doing that? Why is it politically acceptable for members to behave in this way? I am surprised that you continue to want to be told to not do things that you shouldn’t have to be told not to do.


Hon Ndlozi correctly reminds us that this is not kindergarten. This is kindergarten behaviour. Not even children take so long to understand. No, members, you are out of order. [Interjections.]


Dis buite orde. [It is out of order.]


Hon members, this behaviour is unacceptable. Deputy President, you were busy responding when you were rudely interrupted by us. Please proceed.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Order! Order! Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, respectfully: I rose on a point of order. You cannot say it was rude. It is allowed in the House for a member to ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, no, Deputy Speaker ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You should ask.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: You must not contribute to the cantankerous behaviour that we have been seeing here. [Interjections.] You cannot say we rudely disrupted anyone when you recognised us, gave us the platform, and gave us an opportunity to raise a point of order. Please, withdraw that it was rude. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no! Hon member!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: How can you say that?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down. Let me tell you why. Please, just take your seat and let me tell you why. We can’t be asking the President to come and address us here and we conduct ourselves in a manner that we subsequently have the Chair talking so long about behaviour. It is incorrect for us to do that. What I am calling out of order is that I have to tell members to behave. This is incorrect. This is what is rude about the behaviour that I call unacceptable. Deputy President, please proceed.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, what I was leading up to is that, in a very substantial way, we have opened the doors of learning. We have been able to fund our young people up to R9,5 billion, which is in National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, funding. That is a substantial amount of money. Admittedly, we agree that much more needs to be done in this regard and, if ever people were in doubt, this is one government that has the resolve and the determination to make sure that we deliver a decent education to our young people. We will not be stopped from doing so. We are going to deliver on what we said. We do not make empty promises. This promise is pregnant with a lot of possibilities. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, my question the following: Knowing that your government has been selling dreams for a while, is it possible to know when your government will start building specialised universities, just like the one from which we have just returned, the former Medical University of South Africa, Medunsa, to ensure that we do not go looking for Cuban doctors and that we do not go looking for Cubans for the Free State, something that is disingenuous, so that we return the faith to our unemployed young people who look forward to a future and opportunities in higher education but have been prevented by a lack of commitment to free education?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, our government has opened a number of institutions of higher learning. We have opened and continue to open many Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges where young people are given the opportunity to learn crafts and skills that are much needed in our economy. We are one government that has been bold and brave enough to open three universities in the current period: one in Mpumalanga, one in the Northern Cape, and one specialised university for medical training.


Now, we do this to do live up to the dream – which you say is a dream – and the promise and aspiration that were articulated clearly in the Freedom Charter, that of opening up the doors of learning and giving our young people as many opportunities as we possibly can.


Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The question makes reference to specialised universities. There is a difference between a university and a TVET college. [Interjections.] I made reference specifically to the former Medunsa.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, hon member. Please take your seat.


Mr M S MBATHA: Either there is an answer or there is no answer. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Deputy President, please conclude your answer.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, because people do not have the patience to listen, a medical university is a specialised university. Indeed, a number of universities of science of technology that are being opened are also specialised universities. Many of the universities and colleges that are in existence are beginning to focus more and more on a number of areas. Whether we will, in future, open more specialised universities is a matter of planning, and that is not excluded. We are a developing country and, in developing, we have to harness all the skills that we have to make sure that we achieve the goals and objectives that we have set out for ourselves. Thank you very much.


Ms S J NKOMO: House Chairperson, through you to the hon Deputy President: With regard to the shortage of critical skills and, particularly, local skills flight, what is government doing to ensure that highly skilled graduates are provided with ease of entry into their respective markets or professions so that they are not, as occurs on so many occasions, forced to leave the country to seek employment on foreign soil because of inept and ill-thought out bureaucracy? What is government doing to attract South African expatriates who have a genuine interest in the country’s future and development back to South Africa, in light of the fact that the question that was asked by hon Nkadimeng actually stated that most business organisations recognise that South Africa is suffering from a shortage of skills? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, one of the things that we are doing through the Human Resource Development Council of South Africa is to promote a partnership between business and institutions of learning. This is precisely for the reason the hon member has raised. What we are finding to be more beneficial is a partnership that is struck at an early stage between somebody who is learning a craft and a potential employer, be it a business or an institution. As we partner them through a learnership process, through an internship process, a relationship is then struck, and the learning person then gets the opportunity to learn whatever skill at close range, on the job. We are finding that many of those people who are partnered through this process with various companies finally find employment a lot easier than those who are not partnered. So, we are fostering partnerships between the private sector and institutions of learning. This is what we are going to be doing on an ongoing basis to make sure that we do match the skills that are acquired with the jobs that are sought in the private sector and, indeed, in the public sector, as well. That, for us, provides a wonderful answer if we can craft this properly, and we have already started.


With regard to the skills base that exists outside the country, those who are skilled and are still in the diaspora, we applaud those who have started various initiatives. There are people who have started the homecoming revolution and are encouraging a number of people to come back home, to come and utilise their skills here. Indeed, through our various departments, particularly the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, we are also reaching out to a number of South Africans who are in various other countries and attracting them back home. We are also encouraging companies here to offer them positions so that they can come back and work here.


What is encouraging as well is that many of the students that we are sending overseas to study, as one interacts with them and talks to them, they all say that they want to come back home. So, the fear that people might have had when we sent young people to learn overseas, that they may never come back, is proving not to be a reality because many of them do want to come back home. So, we are working in a multipronged manner to make sure that the skills that are outside our country do come back home. What we need to do is spread the environment that will be good and conducive for them to come back too so that they can contribute to the growth of our economy and country. Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The last supplementary question is to be asked by the hon Davis.


Prof B BOZZOLI: Apologies, Chair, I pressed the wrong button. I am actually hon Bozzoli.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You must press your own button.


Prof B BOZZOLI: Sorry. [Laughter.] Thank you, I will do that next time. Chair, business organisations need skills, but all is not as well in the skills field as the Deputy President makes out. Businesses are levied some R13 billion per year for the purpose of skills education. When your government, Deputy President, calls upon the private sector to assist in higher education crises like the current one, you would think it would be from a strong position, one where you could say with confidence that the R13 billion a year already given by business is well managed, provides skills, and is thriving. Indeed, however, it is known instead by all players to be a disaster. There is mission creep, corruption and mismanagement in the Sector Education and Training Authorities, Setas, and the NSFAS, leading to alienation of business from the sector. Many businesses these days regard the skills levy as simply another tax and something that they have no interest in.


Who have you approached, Deputy President, in business to repair the damage done by this disaster area, to draw them in more actively to participate in revamping the skills area, as well as drawing them into higher education, in general, which is what Minister Nzimande keeps going on about? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I have approached the Human Resource Development Council. The Human Resource Development Council, as you wonder, is a council on which sits, as I said earlier, government departments at ministerial level, as well as the private sector at chief executive officer level, as well academic professionals, trade unions, and community-based organisations. This is a powerful council of close to 60 or 70 people that meets ...




The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... if you care to know, I will invite you one day, as you are making those gestures. It meets four times a year, and in the four times it is able to evaluate, firstly, the progress that we are making, secondly, identify areas where we need work to be done and, thirdly, commission the work that needs to be done by professionals who come back within the year to give us reports and make clear recommendations in terms of what we need to act on.


In this council, we are able to deal with challenges and issues such as the one that you have alluded to – the Setas – in terms of making them much more effective and what role the private sector can play in education in making sure, for instance things such as making sure we increase the level of PhDs in our country because the number of PhDs that we have are rather few and far between. That body is working continuously on finding ways of increasing the pool of PhDs, working consistently on making sure that we have more university lecturers, particularly women and black people, and working to find more ways of increasing the artisan base in our country, the engineering base in our country. This council is beavering away, and working consistently to find all these answers. The beauty of this council is that it is a council that brings together some of the best minds in our country that are lodged in the private sector, in government, in the trade union movement, as well as in community-based organisations.


This council is doing a great deal of work. The products of what it is doing will be seen as we move forward. It is addressing some of these challenges that we are facing now. It also for this reason that I suggested that this council needs to play a role as we address this current challenge that we have of the funding of universities going forward. So, we are doing a lot of work to move the needle in as far as increasing the skills base in our country. Thank you very much.






Mr REDELINHYS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House –


  1. notes that November is National Diabetes Awareness Month;


  1. further notes that three and a half million South Africans, approximately 6% of the population lives with either type 1 or 2 diabetes and that many of these cases goes undiagnosed because the symptoms can be mild or difficult to recognise and may develop gradually;


  1. recognises that it takes on average seven years for a person to get diagnosed with diabetes for the first time, resulting in about 30% of people with type two diabetes already having developed complications by the time that they are diagnosed, which may include heart disease, stroke, blindness, amputations and kidney failure;


  1. further recognises that in most cases these complications could have been avoided entirely by an early diagnoses and proper treatment;


  1. urges this House to debates the strengthening and expanding efforts of both government and civil society to raise awareness about the prevalence, treatment and prevention of type 2 diabetes in particular.


Rre S G MMUSI: Modulasetilo, ke ema fano go tshitsinya gore mo Ntlokokoano Bosetšhaba e e latelang ke tla tlhagisa mo boemong jwa ANC:


Gore Ntlo eno, puso, ditheo tsa poraefete, badiri le baemanokeng ba ba maleba ba ikemisetse go bona maano a leruri a go fedisa botlhokatiro jo bo golang ka lebelo le le boitshegang. Ke a leboga, Motlotlegi.

(Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)


[Mr S G MMUSI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice, on behalf of the ANC, that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:


That this House, government, private sector, workers and relevant stakeholders work hard in finding permanent solutions to end unemployment that is rapidly growing.]


Mr S P MHLONGO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:


That the House debates the impact Value-Added Tax, VAT, increase will have on the majority of the South African people. Thank you.


Mr I MOSALA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates ways of accelerating the campaigns on health promotion and diseases prevention through common community actions. Thank you.


Ms D VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the inability of the Modimolle Municipality in Limpopo, to render basic services like the provision of water, electricity and road infrastructure to the communities of Vaalwater and a step-by-step plan on how to rebuild this town.


Nks P SONTI: Sihlalo, ndenza isaziso sokuba, xa le Ndlu ihlala kwakhona, ndiza kwenza isiphakamiso egameni le-EFF:


Sokuba le Ndlu ixoxe ngemipu eyangena namapolisa kwizakhiwo zePalamente xa ayenqanda uqhankqalazo lwabantwana ababeqhankqalazela imfundo engahlawulelwayo, babe beyifanele. Enkosi.

(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[Ms N P SONTI: Hon Chairperson, I move that, in the next sitting, I will propose, on behalf of the EFF:


That the House debates the issue of guns that were brought into the parliamentary buildings by the police while they were preventing students who were protesting for free education, to which they are entitled. Thank you.]


Mr P KHOARAI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates ways to enforce measures to eliminate abusive work practices in a typical work and labour broking. Thank you.


Dr M J FIGG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the failure of this ANC government to devise effective and coherent solutions to save our failing economy with a growth rate forecast of 1.3% before this country goes into a recession.


Mr L L VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:


That the House debates the expanding and crippling water crisis in South Africa.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:


That the House debates the advantages and disadvantages of nuclear power plants to meet the future energy of South Africa, and if compared to alternative sources of renewable energy.


Ms M F NKADIMENG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates developing more partnership between higher education institutions, workplaces and other relevant stakeholders in order for Work-Integrated Learning research be done on the challenges that are posed by increased interaction and collaboration. Thank you.


Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the unacceptable levels on carnage and deaths on our roads, South Africa’s current road safety strategy and how to improve this situation. Thank you.


Ms L MABIJA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates how black tax cripples our young graduates.


Mr C C HKRUGER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the difference between Social Economic Impact and Red Tape Assessments and the role each of them will play in the regulatory environment of business and the creation of business friendly environment.


Mr K J MILEHAM: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House –


  1. notes the latest South African customer satisfaction index which measures the consumer satisfaction in the eight Metro Municipalities;


  1. further notes that the average customer satisfaction score for municipal service delivery, was 61,8 out of 100;


  1. acknowledges that the City of Cape Town scored the highest score of all Metropolitan Municipalities, achieving a score of 71,9;


  1. debates the City of Cape Town’s commitment to excellence and ways of making South Africans in other metros feels the same sense of customer satisfaction.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the House debates the critical lack of civilian oversight of our intelligent services due to the fact that we still do not have an Inspector-General of Intelligence envisaged in section 210(b) of the Constitution of the republic of South Africa and the Intelligence Minister’s failure to find a suitable candidate to fulfil this important position. Thank you.


Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:


That the House debates ways of reducing the high incidence of accidence during the festive season. Thank you.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr S M RALEGOMA:  House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes with sadness the passing of the 1956 anti-pass march stalwart mama Lauretta Ngcobo, a world renowned novelist and writer,


  1. further notes that Ngcobo is a recipient of Presidential National Order of iKhamanga in silver, for excellence in the field of literature as well as for championing the cause of gender equality in South Africa,


  1. recognizes that Ngcobo was born in 1931 and was raised in the rural community of Ixopo, KwaZulu-Natal,


  1. acknowledges that in 1963 she was forced to flee South Africa to escape imminent arrest and went into exile in Swaziland and later to Zambia before finally settling in England where she worked as a teacher for 25years,


  1. further acknowledges that she began her writing career on her return to South Africa with books such as Cross of Gold, They Did Not Die, Let it be told and others and,


  1. conveys deepest sympathies to her family, friends and all those who cherished her and her sterling work.




(Draft Resolution)


Dr H CHEWANE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that Greenfields clinic in Buffalo City Municipalities is in an unspeakable condition, it is shocking and the clinic is not suitable for operations,


  1. notes that the clinic services more than eight other areas including part of ward 8,


  1. further notes that it is not only the case in Buffalo City Municipality but the majority of the rural clinics across the country are in dilapidated condition,


  1. acknowledges that the majority of communities across the country are faced with the same conditions, hospitals in the Northern Cape do not have stand by generators,


  1. further acknowledges that the ANC have failed proper health services to the poor majority,


  1. calls on all South Africans to reject the ANC government for failing to provide decent primary health care services, demand prioritization of adequate resources to improve the state of primary health care services in rural areas.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House —


  1. notes that on Tuesday 03 November 2015, the Pietermaritzburg High Court confirmed the interdict against Phumlani Mfeka, a former member of the so called Mazibuye African forum preventing him from advocating hate speech and inciting violence particularly against the Indian community, and


  1. also notes that the court order restrains Mfeka from making statements orally or in writing or by any means of electronic media which includes facebook, twitter or instagram which may incite racial violence,


  1. finally notes that Mfeka was also ordered to remove any such statements from electronic media including facebook and twitter,


  1. call upon this House to applaud the court order for sending a strong signal that there is no place for racism in South Africa, and


  1. urge all South Africans to actively work together to eliminate racism from our beautiful country.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr S M RALEGOMA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the United Nations, UN, 70 years of existence,


  1. further notes that the UN was established in the aftermath of a devastating war to help stabilise international relations and give peace a more secure foundation,


  1. recognises that in its 70years United Nations contributed meaningfully to maintaining peace and security promoting democracy, human rights and other global issues that are receiving attention,


  1. further recognizes that while they have been naming successes, the UN needs to attend to its weaknesses and ensure that failures like the Rwanda Genocide do not repeat themselves and,


  1. welcomes the South African participation in the 70th session of the UN General Assembly.




(Draft Resolution)


Ms V KETABAHLE: Chair, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that the community of Mahlungulu in Qumbu, Eastern Cape, are forced to share dams with animals;


  1. notes also that taps were installed three years ago but are useless because no water comes out of them;
  2. acknowledges that the people have been denied access to this basic need: access to water, and questions how they are supposed to live;


  1. condemns the ANC government for failing to deliver such a basic service; and


  1. calls on all South Africans to reject the ANC government for failing to provide them with quality water and for putting the health at risk of the people of this community.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I now put the motion. Are there any objections? There is an objection, so the motion is not agreed to. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr M L W FILTANE: House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the UDM:


That this House -


  1. notes that when I visited the Walter Sisulu University’s Mthatha campus in May to address students on the countrywide xenophobic attacks, we noticed that the university’s entrance was full of groups of students as early as about 10am;


  1. recognises that these students were drinking liquor openly and that, in fact, many of them were so intoxicated they were battling to walk normally and, because I disliked this image, I decided to talk about it when my turn came to address students on the countrywide xenophobic attacks;


  1. further recognises that the address was supported by the hon Adv Patekile Holomisa and that, as a result, there was an immediate termination of the practice by WSU students; and


  1. congratulates the UDM on resolving this and instilling higher moral values in all members of society and the youth in particular.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I now put the motion. Are there any objections? As there is an objection, the motion is not agreed to. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr S M RALEGOMA: Chair, the ANC moves without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes with sadness the callous killing of Sergeant Mzwakhe John Magwaza in the early hours of Sunday morning, 25 October 2015, at Entumeni, Eshowe, in KwaZulu-Natal;


  1. further notes that Sergeant Magwaza was a police officer stationed at the Presidential Protection Unit;
  2. understands that the suspects who shot him also fled with his service pistol;


  1. condemns the killing of Sergeant Magwaza and believes his killing is an attack on the security of the state;


  1. urges community members with information about the killing or the whereabouts of the suspects to come forward and help the police apprehend them and bring them to justice; and


  1. conveys its condolences to the Magwaza family, friends and relatives.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, I move without notice the following motion on behalf on the EFF:


That the House -


  1. notes the arrogance of the political office of the Gamagara Local Municipality in the John Taolo Gaetsewe district in the Northern Cape;


  1. also notes that politicians continue to drive fancy cars and wine and dine with mining companies whilst poor communities are subjected to disease and have no access to basic services;
  2. further notes that the Gamagara Local Municipality continues to harass the community occupying land that they claim belongs to the mine;


  1. takes notice of the pending case between the community and the local municipality to evict people from their land so that the mine can operate;


  1. commends the Mapoteng community members who took a decision to continue occupying the land because the land belongs to them;


  1. calls on government to stop harassing people to give away land to mining companies because some ANC heavyweights have shares in those mines; and


  1. also calls on South Africans, particularly the people of Mapoteng in the Gamagara Local Municipality in the Northern Cape, to reject the ANC government when they go to the polls in 2016 because it continues to undermine these people.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I now put the motion. Are there any objections? As there is an objection, the motion is not agreed to. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.




(Draft Resolution)


Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, on behalf of the NFP I move without notice:


That this House -


  1. notes that the ANC-led eThekwini Municipality is reportedly struggling to meet its service delivery targets, with major projects hampered by a series of protracted delays;


  1. also notes that delays are experienced in implementing important housing projects, alternative building technology projects and water and sanitation projects, as well as infrastructure-generating projects;


  1. further notes that serious concerns have been raised over the current underspending of the municipality;


  1. also notes that officials who work for the municipality are reportedly being told to put on hold projects until the ANC leadership has decided; and


  1. expresses its disappointment that internal ANC factionalism is apparently paralysing the normal functioning of the eThekwini Municipality; and


  1. urges the eThekwini Council to implement the designated service delivery programmes, which are currently delayed, as a priority for the benefit of all the people of the city regardless of political affiliation.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I now put the motion. Are there any objections? As there is an objection, the motion is not agreed to. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.



(Draft Resolution)


Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that –


  1. the high rate of unemployment in John Taolo Gaetsewe District in Kuruman, Nothern Cape province;


  1. notes that irrespective of the region being surrounded by minerals, unemployment rate remains high;


  1. further notes that the majority of these mines surrounding John Taolo Gaetsewe are chaired and owned by ANC heavyweights including those who are financing the ANC;


  1. further notes that many families continue with empty stomachs while the ANC heavyweights continue to dine and wine with those in charge of the mines;


  1. we call on the people of John Taolo Gaetsewe, the unemployed to continue uniting and demanding what belongs to them, which is the minerals beneath the soil; and
  2. also call the people of John Taolo Gaetsewe to unite in 2016 and reject the government of the ANC in the Northern Cape and in general.



(Draft Resolution)


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that –


(a)police in KwaZulu-Natal have arrested four alleged car hijackers after a fire fight in which one suspect was wounded;


(b)further notes that all the suspects are aged between 20 and 25;


(c)further notes that one of the suspects was out on bail for motor vehicle hijacking at the time of his arrest;


(d)finally notes that SA Police Service officers, from both Shallcross and Malvern Police stations as well as the members of the K9 unit, were involved in the operation;


(e)we call upon this august House to congratulate the SA Police Service members involved in making the arrests; and


(f)urges all members of the SA Police Service to continue with their good work in the fight against crime.


Agreed to.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Am I allowed to amend a motion?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I propose that you table a motion of your own.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No, it is a motion that has already been put here but if it is amended, we will support it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Which motion is that hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the amendment hon Chief Whip? There need to be consultation with the UDM if they are agreeable to it.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: They are already agreeable. 


Mr M L W FILTANE: Chair, let me hear what the proposal is and then I will qualify.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I am not going to allow that. What I will do is ...


Mr M L W FILTANE: He must walk over then we can talk outside.  


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I don’t want this session to be ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): NO, we don’t want dialogue. Maybe Chief Whip you can just tell me what the amendment is.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: That’s right. The part that says it was supported by Advocate Holomisa. If he can put the part that says the ANC, then we support it. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Chief Whip, I think we must deal with this outside of this meeting.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, we object to both. With the ANC in, with the DA in, anything, we object.


Mr F BHENGU ON BEHALF OF THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: We allow the Chief Whip to go and caucus with the UDM outside, we move for the motion to be adopted by the House.


Agreed to.




(Member’s Statement)


Ms L MABIJA (ANC): House Chair, I would like to indicate that ANC congratulates “Operation Fiela” on recovering some of the items stolen during the recent looting of foreign owned shops in Grahamstown. Among those, there were more than 20 refrigerators and chest freezers. Four people aged between 28 and 49 were arrested and are facing several charges including possession of stolen property and drugs. The recovered property is believed to have been stolen when the community members started looting shops in the Joza and Grahamstown areas more than a week ago.


ANC have said it before that this “Operation Fiela” is not targeting law-abiding citizens or law-abiding foreign nationals as it was previously claimed, but to protect the state and make the country a safe place. This is an operation to crackdown on crime and nothing else. ANC believes that government got a duty to make our country safer for everybody. It is part of human rights. I thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Ms T E BAKER (DA): Chair, earlier this week, the DA visited the drought stricken area of Northern KwaZulu-Natal. What we found there is far worse than anyone could have imagined. In Hluhluwe crops and cattle are dying; school children have no water to drink. The entire incomes of farmers and farm workers are now disappearing as most crops in the region have been wiped out completely and farmers estimate that half of their cattle have been lost.


We found communities where thousands of people have lived without water for the past 15 years. Government is doing next to nothing about this crisis. A tender has been issued for feed for 4700 cattle yet there are half a million animals dying in this region. Minister Mokonyane says that water trucks have been delivered to the region yet there are communities which have received water only every three months. Minister, under your watch, unemployed people are now forced to buy water at inflated prices. This is horrific to say the least. One gets a sense that the ANC have completely abandoned the people of this region. It should never be that some communities in this country should have to withstand such suffering. I thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr M Q NDLOZI (EFF): House Chair, for the 2014-15 financial year, the Gauteng province had been given a budget of R5 billion for housing compared to the budget of just 1.2 billion in Limpopo for an example. This province receives the largest share of our national wealth but fails dismally to deliver basic services to our people. When he first took office, Mr Jacob Mamabolo took to bring new hope to the millions of poor African people who have been waiting for years to get houses. But instead of delivering houses to our people in Gauteng, particularly in the city of Johannesburg, there are bridges collapsing.


The City of Johannesburg has wasted millions of rands building bicycle lanes for the rich who can afford not to use their cars and who do not have to be stressed by public transport everyday. The very same city which works only for the rich has also embarked on another middle class project called ecomobility, costing the city a small fortune too. But most shocking of all, the ANC government in Gauteng is distributing shacks to the people as part of their human settlement programme.


We visited Stjwetla in Alexandra and we were shocked to see government officials actively and physically delivering shacks to our people. When we ask the Deputy Minister of Human Settlement in the House yesterday, she denied that the ANC was dishing out shacks like all the food parcels they dish. This shows a government leadership that refuses to own up to its blunders and its continuing disregard of the needs of our people. ANC must fall and we call the people to reject the ANC. [Time expires.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr A MADELLA (ANC): On Monday, 06 October 2015, I visited the Riverside farm in the Cape Agulhas Municipal area. This farm is owned by Mr Sindizile Micheal Mxokoleli who is a beneficiary of Land Redistribution and Development, LRAD program of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. On this visit I was accompanied by my colleague from the provincial legislature, the hon, Theo Olivier, as well as the Chief Whip of the Cape Agulhas Municipality Councilor Raymond Mokotwana and members of the ANC region, Sanco, as well as the South African Communist Party. The delegation also included officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry.


Mr Mxokoleli says he took ownership of this farm on 26 March 2015. He is exceedingly proud of this achievement and grateful to this government led by the ANC. And he indeed has support of all the surrounding farming communities in particular the white farmers. But we are concerned that there has been delays in the finalisation of the recap grant that he is waiting for which will allow him to operate his farm at an optimal level. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr J A ESTERHUISEN (IFP): Firstly, I must commend the Minister of Energy for recognising the importance of renewable energy at an event yesterday. As we are on a position to say we have some of the cheapest wind energy globally in South Africa, we can bank on than 30% of electricity from this source at any time while in Europe; Germany for an example can only claim 16,6 efficiency from the wind energy programme.


Since 2011 when the renewable energy programme started, wind and solar has generated 5.5 terawatts hours of electricity and prevented 5.6 million tons of carbon emissions. With the water crisis that this country currently faces, it is an understate of benefit of renewable, its also that for each kilowatt hour of renewable energy that displays fossil fuels in the national grid, 1.2 litres of water would be saved. This could be as much as 52 million litres of water a year.


Eskom at this stage cannot provide access to Independent Power Producer, IPPs and grid access capacity has been taken out quickly with connection cost being increased tremendously. But as we stand to benefit so much from these IPPs programmes it is imperative that a Minister and the department assist in the speeding up of the grid connection processes. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Prof N M KHUBISA (NFP): House Chairperson, once again the problems of the country are compounding, most of our section 9 institutions are not performing accordingly. We have witnessed energy crisis in our country, the education crisis and we have seen the energy crisis as well. Now we are experiencing water shortage and drought which has never been witnessed before, we move from one crisis to another. Where is the political will to remedy all this? Our country faces high levels of unemployment and poverty and the government does not own up.


Fraud, corruption, maladministration, incompetence, irregular expenditure from some departments failing to spend allocated budget, failing to pay service providers within the stipulated 30 days, failure to implement strategic plans are all matters which are seriously concerning. Government is very reluctant to attend these concerns and what is worse is that it does not make any serious effort to ensure that those who do not comply pay the ultimate price.


These official fails us year after year but nothing is absolutely done. The end result is that the incompetent officials’ remains in their well paid positions and the people of the country have to grin and bare the effect of such incompetence. The NFP is saying it is now the time to act, the NFP believes that unless there are serious consequences for the failing incompetent fellow officials service delivery ... [Time expires.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr F ADAMS: Hon House Chair, the ANC is disappointed by the DA-led Cape Town City Council, which recently voted overwhelmingly in favour of a multimillion rand development of land between Clifton and Camps Bay. Despite strong opposition from all parties, it is not true what the mayor is saying when she claims that the city had listened carefully to inputs from extensive public participation processes.


We believe strongly that the mayor of Cape Town is helping already rich developers to accumulate wealth at the expenses of the poor. She has shown her loyalty to the wealthy by running to Clifton to meet with the developers’ intend on plundering public resources. This project also does not enjoy the support of ratepayers in Clifton and Camps Bay. The mayor also takes the limited access that working families from the Cape Flats have to the Atlantic Seaboard.


This time it was not only ANC who objected to the development, but all opposition parties challenged the mayor on public participation, saying that the DA excluded the poor by rushing to tick boxes, releasing adverts with big words on billboards and also in newspapers. We still insist that all the concerned parties must be represented from the beginning in a transparent participation. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Ms D CARTER: Hon House Chairperson, the 2010 outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease cost South African economy R4 billion in lost exports. The recent oversight visit to Musina proves that government is not serious about protecting our borders. Fences are nonexistent and farmers complain of a rampant intrusion of animals seeking pastures with little to no governmental assistance or empathy.


Border municipalities were prioritised with monetary assistance to establish pounds precisely to counter the movement of animals into South Africa. There has been abject failure on the part of the municipalities to establish an operate pounds and irresponsibility of both national and provincial governments to oversee the effective performance by municipalities. The Musina municipality is an example of a border municipality that has failed to establish and operate the pound.

We have to ask: “What happened with the funding that was allocated?” Is the answer in the forensic report undertaken in 2011 that was never released? This forensic report saw the municipal manager as well as the chief financial officer, CFO, resigning and joining the ANC offices in Limpopo as staff members. The failure to establish pounds is not only having effect of opening us up to the spread of diseases but it also result in the breakdown of law and order.


Farmers may well be entitled to seize intruding animals but not to impound them because there is no pound. This points to poor and ... [Time expired.]. Thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Ms N F NKADIMENG: Hon House Chair, the ANC welcomes plans to give rural roads a facelift with the purchase of 52 graders by the Department of Transport in KwaZulu-Natal. The new graders will be used to maintain more than 23 960 kilometers of gravel roads in the province. According to the department, they are going to invest in opening more access roads and fixing potholes on rural roads. They will partner with local manufacturing companies to grow the economy and create more sustainable jobs.


The ANC has been encouraging this kind of partnership with local companies and we still call for the private sector to come on board. This project alone has already created 365 jobs for grader operators. We are pleased by the commitment from the department to create a further 222 employment opportunities as they are working towards speeding up service delivery in the needy communities.


Mošomo o tšwela pele. [Tšhwahlelo.] [ There is progress. [Interjections.]]




(Member’s Statement)


Dr W G JAMES: Hon House Chair, Health Minister, Aaron Motswaledi says that he is negotiating with the Russian to have South Africans train there. It is astonishing, not to mention bordering on patriotic, to the Minister to have no faith in our medical training capability - world-class by any capable measure, of which he himself is a beneficiary.


He does this on the back of the Cuban medical training programme, where a total of $70 million dollars, worth about R770 million today was spent on 534 students who have completed their studies and 2 069 are still studying. There is about R60 000 a year per student. The money should have been invested at our medical schools, at our universities of Sefako Makgato, Cape Town, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Stellenbosch, Pretoria, Walter Sisulu and Wits.


Now, Minister Motswaledi has turned to the Russians and is doing the same thing again. Why does he have no faith in his country’s institutions? Does he, like the hon Blade Nzimande, come to dislike our people at our institutions? Why does he outsource basic medical training to foreign countries? I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr L P KHOARAI (ANC): Chair, the ANC encourages all citizens to follow what the community of Welkom in the Free State did when they took action and tipped off the police in order to arrest nine people who were committing crimes in their area. Following this action last Thursday, nine people, including two Bangladeshis, were arrested after members of the community sick and tired of the crime provided information about their criminal activities to the police. The arrest was made by the Welkom SA Police Service K9 unit together with the Thabong Crime Intelligence Unit. The arrested people were charged with various offences, including possession of illegal guns and drugs.


That information from the residents led to the arrests clearly indicates that the community was sick and tired of criminal activities in their neighbourhood. The ANC applauds the two police units for their swift reaction in ensuring that perpetrators of crimes are brought to book to face the might of the law. We also commend the residents for acting reasonably by not taking the law into their own hands. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr M A PLOUAMMA (Agang): Hon Chair, we are now convinced as Agang SA that our hard-earned democracy has been hijacked by the predatory elite political hyenas, whose soul purpose is the accumulation of wealth.


It is very clear that corruption has paralysed our government. These heartless leaders, some of whom have attained national-hero status while betraying our people, are wolves in sheep’s clothing. The worst of it is that they have betrayed our revolution. Some of them were chief negotiators, but are now co-opted by multinationals controlling the policy direction of this government.


We need a new, uncompromising fresh start, and Aganga SA must lead to it to ensure the way. The cultural and economic emancipation of our people cannot be postponed any longer by apologists and collaborators with multinationals.


It seems we have been going around in circles, perpetuating the same conditions of inequality with a few seated at the table selling their blackness and state connections. Ours is an abnormal society. Victims are still victims, reduced to beggars. Former liberators have adopted chameleon ways: they have developed forked tongues. We need leaders who are principled and provide moral leadership. We are now reaching a stage at which Parliament becoming irrelevant. Thank you, hon Chair. [Time expired.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr S G MMUSI (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the results of the by-elections that were held on 30 September 2015. The by-elections were held in 11 wards in four provinces: the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and the Western Cape.


Voters demonstrated their unshakeable confidence in the ANC in eight of the 11 contested wards. [Applause.] The ANC decisively won two wards previously held by the DA and the IFP, notably in areas where parties were considered strongholds in the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal respectively. These results reaffirm the confidence that the people of South Africa have in the ANC and its leadership.


We extend our gratitude to communities for the continual show of confidence in the movement. We wish the newly elected councillors success as they move forward the work of improving the lives of the people for the better, and we dare not fail. The ANC thanks all those who went to cast their votes and calls for an even higher voter turnout as we advance to the 2016 local government elections. We thank, equally, the Independent Electoral Commission for continually delivering free, fair, credible and transparent elections. Our democracy is alive and well. I thank you. [Applause.]




(Draft Resolution)


Ms D VAN DER WALT (DA): Hon Chair, the time is running out for Huis Talje, a children’s home for severely physically and mentally handicapped children, and for the Huis Tekna Place Of Safety Cum Children’s Home for physically, mentally and sexually abused children both in Bela-Bela, Limpopo.


It is a continual battle with the Department of Social Development to get their subsidies on time. Huis Talje is owed R600 000 in arrears subsidy payments. It can never be justified why the department of social development in Limpopo is incapable of transferring the approved funds to look after our children who are extremely vulnerable and who are placed in these homes because they need special care as their families can’t take care of them as a result of their severe disabilities, or because our courts place them in these facilities to ensure that they are safe. No matter what or where, these institutions should never become beggars for taking care of our most vulnerable children. Never!




(Member’s Statement)


Mr I MOSALA (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the ANC commends the efforts by the Northern Cape Health member of the executive council, MEC, Mack Jack to root out corruption in the provincial department of health. His decision to set up a task team to investigate theft of millions of rands that were supposed to help our government to deliver services to the poor is much appreciated. The ANC is committed to root out corruption in all departments anywhere in the country.


All government employees in the provincial Department of Health will be investigated and those who would be found to be part of any wrong doing must face the might of the law. We call upon government employees to refrain from misbehaving and help to expose those who are engaged in corruption within the department.


The ANC calls upon other leaders of government in the Northern Cape to follow the example of the Health MEC. I thank you. [Applause.]








(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, on the issue of xenophobic attacks in Grahamstown - that’s where I come from by the way - I visited the mayor on Monday to find out what is happening there. In fact, the religious leadership has taken a control of the situation and working with the municipality. It is, in fact, a terrible situation. Now, the unfortunate thing is that about four or five days ago, two people at Port Alfred were found dead and it is exactly the same thing that happened in Grahamstown. Nobody knows what happened. Therefore, I’m trying to suggest that from what we are trying to find out there is that what exactly a reason behind it is. It does not seem to be such an innocent thing. It looks like there are people who are behind it and hopefully police will soon find out what is happening.


The issue of drought is a sad thing. Yesterday we had a meeting - the five departments that are affected here including Water and Sanitation, Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Rural Development and Land Reform and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We have a programme subsequent to the declaration of a disaster. We have a programme here and I did indicate a couple of days ago in this House that we have decided to allocate state land to move animals from communal lands which are depleted and terrible badly to the state land. Hopefully, we will manage to persuade people to keep them there. Not just because of the drought now, but the drought would have precipitated this movement.


Thank you the hon Madella for Mxokozeli. This is exactly what is happening that there are things that we do very well like this one. He does communicate with us. Thank you very much for that. But of course, there are failures and there will be always failures and successes. In fact, what is happening here is that let’s take the foot and mouth disease there. Actually South Africa has regained the status; it is not as if ... it was like that. But because there was a problem with regards to vaccines at Onderstepoort, now that situation has been reversed and what is happening there is that there’s research on a vaccine to deal with it for this problem. Lastly ... [Interjections.]


Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I rise on Rule 105(6) which states that at the conclusion of statements by members a Minister present maybe or can have an opportunity to respond for not more than two minutes. The hon Minister has two minutes and 40 seconds already. You applied the rules to members when they read out Member’s Statements and we expect you to do the same to the executive. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): You are correct hon member, but what is happening is that I have used my discretion in this regard since to this particular Minister there were three different statements and I took note of them that were made from, amongst the others, the ANC two and also from another party. In that light, I just allowed the Minister to conclude so that we could move on.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, on a point of order: You are setting a very wrong precedence. You must use your discretion on the basis of the rules, there’s no discretion in that rule that was read that you can use. Please stick to the rules. The Minister’s time is up. Let’s move to the next Minister and it’s easy like that because I will ask for discretion and it’s a very unpopular rules.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member. Hon members, you see if the Chairperson does have discretion in terms of the time that has been allocated for a specific item, and I also allow members including you the hon Ndlozi at times to go beyond your allocated time. I do not switch off your microphone, I allow you to conclude. Hon Minister, can you just conclude please.


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, let me make this last comment. There is hon there, the hon member from Agang, who makes a sweeping statement here. It’s so nice to be an armchair critic doing nothing. We are in power and we are running government ... [Time expired.] [Applause.] [Laughter.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, the only reason why we are withdrawing is because this Minister is very consistent in attending Parliament and all other Ministers must be like him to come and account to Parliament. Otherwise ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’m glad hon Ndlozi that you are so observant and you agree with my discretion and the powers that I have. Hon members, unless there’s another Minister who wants to respond, that concludes Ministerial Responses. The Secretary will read the First Order of the day.


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, can I please address you? I think ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): On what that you want to address me, hon member?


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I think this goes to the heart of the issues that we raised yesterday. We had almost no Minister present during the question time. It is now our Member’s Statement time and we are raising issues of national importance and there’s only one Minister that is able to answer. I think this is the issue that goes to the heart of our democracy. We need our leaders to be responsible ... [Inaudible.] ... our leaders to be here to be held accountable. I think maybe ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member, you have made your point.


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I think maybe we must write to Khumbul’ekhaya in order to find the Ministers.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I did not allow you to make a statement and you have made your point and we will request that the Chief Whips in the Chief Whips Forum to address this issue the same way that they are addressing the issue of the absence of Ministers during question time and also take it up with the Leader of Government Business. The Secretary will read the First Order.




(Second Reading debate)


Mr B L MASHILE: House Chair, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs received briefing from the department inclusive of the local commission on 8 September 2015 in relation to the amendments proposed in the Municipal Electoral Act. The committee then invited the public to make input on these proposals, and only three inputs were received and considered in our deliberations. All parties agreed to these amendments incorporated in this amendment Bill. The amendments in the main are administrative in nature, only a few that requires ventilation now are the following: Clause one is now defining an authorised representative of a political party in relation to submission of documents for election purposes. Also, clause one amends the definition of an identity document to mean an identity card issued in terms of Identification Act 1997 and subject to section 25 of the Act, include the green barcoded identity document. This of course, it includes the temporary identity certificate. Clause two also seeks to amends section 14 of the Act to provide for additional modality for parties to submit their party lists electronically to the Electoral Commission. Clause two also seeks to provide for the chief electoral officer to notify relevant parties where candidates appear in more than one party list. Clause three seeks to provide for an independent ward candidate together with or with his or her nomination documents to submit a recent photograph as prescribed by the commission. Clause four seeks to provide for the chief electoral officer to notify relevant parties or persons where a ward candidate has been nominated by more than one party or persons for those concerned to have an opportunity to substitute such a candidate.


Clause five seeks to provide for a voter to be reissued with a ballot paper where a voter in a voting station makes a decision to mark on the ballot paper and changes his or her mind before the ballot paper is place in the ballot box, that voter can then get reissued another ballot paper.


Of course, we had a lengthy discussion on this issue, because we were worried that certain voters because of certain reasons known to themselves, they can mark the ballot paper wrongly many times with the intention of abusing the material in the voting booth. And then we have actually now provided in this particular amendment Bill, the power for the electoral commission to make a regulation to curb that kind of mischief by providing for the number of times that they can reissue a ballot paper to a voter in a voting station. But I can say now that the on consultation with the IEC, they have indicated that every voter that has been given the ballot paper to vote, if he marks it wrongly or changes his or her mind, then he or she can only be reissued two extra ballot papers and that will be the last. And we thought that that would be adequate that the voter would have been provided with an adequate opportunity to actually express her vote.


These are the main provisions of the amendment Bill and we wants to put this to the House for agreement with the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Declarations of vote:

Mr M A FIGLAN: Hon House Chair, this is one of those pieces of legislation that has to change in order to keep up with a change in time. Firstly, we support the move to make provision in the law for the use of the new smart ID as a form of identification for voting. We must however raise a concern that there are thousands of uncollected ID smart cards at almost every Home Affairs office in the country. And the Department of Home Affairs must take measures to ensure that all citizens receive this ID cards, instead of waiting for the last few weeks before the elections. As it is normally the case, Home Affairs and IEC must embark on a campaign to encourage applications to collect their smart ID’s or this amendment to the law will be a wasteful exercise.


These amendments also make provision for the electronic submission of nominations, documents and pave the way for electronic payment of party deposit to be made. This is definitely a step in the right direction and we support this move. However, the IEC must ensure that there will be an openness and transparency in this process so that all political parties will trust that the IEC is being fair and impartial and not allow for one political party to bend the rules when they miss at line for submissions. The DA supports this Bill. Thank you.


Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chair, the EFF welcomes such amendment Bill and is motivated by such propose amendments, which are intended to improve elections administration. These changes have come at a right time, with the looming change of power on the horizon. The EFF is here and is here to take over.


These amendments will go a long way to assist new and small parties to administrate their participation in political processes in a more responsible and efficient manner. We can guarantee the IEC that more and more people, young and old, including those who did not vote last time will turn out to vote. So, they must prepare because before they had not seen or heard EFF policy positions. Now they have, and we continue to revive political consciousness in all our communities, urban and rural.

The IEC can expect a high turnout for 2016 Local Government Elections, even bigger that the 1994 April 27 General Elections turnout because EFF is here. It is encouraging that the IEC is taking advantage of technological advances. The IEC must have a capacity to do biometric verification for special vote days because that way ANC do the rigging of votes.


The IEC must announce the number of voters before counting starts. What is discouraging on the other hand is the fact that the ANC has just put a dark cloud over such progressive steps to improve elections credibility and improve efficiency by appointing Mr Zuma personal friend and a former adviser, Mr Mashinini. Mr Mashinini will go and serve the interest of Zuma and not for the country. The IEC has been drag through embarrassment by its former chairperson, Pantsi Tlakula. We support this amendment Bill, but we say down with Mashinini down. [Time expired.]


Ms S J NKOMO: Chairperson, this Bill is very necessary in order to further refine the process whereby free and fair municipal elections may be held next year. Of particular importance to the IFP is the case where a voter accidentally marks a ballot paper in a way that does not indicate for whom the voter wishes to vote, that voter can return the ballot paper to the presiding officer or a voting officer of a voting office.


What we are recommending here is that we are concerned because of two areas: There is as yet no stipulation on how this is going to be fully controlled although we hope that the three areas or the three ballot papers need to be filled out by this person not more than three times and that for everyone which has been discarded, it has to be kept so that at the end of the day when reconciliation of the total ballot papers which were given to a voting station are actually counted, then we need to know how many of those were spoiled.


We also need to ensure that congestion and confusion at voter stations and the voter flow through the voting station is eliminated because many people may come in and actually exercise this method and by so doing disrupt the whole voter flow.


A second concern to us as the IFP is a note where we have the nomination of candidates, where we sometimes see the same main candidate appearing on more than one party list.    If that actually happens, we would like it to be done very quickly by the IEC so that the necessary political parties are informed and that person is also informed. And the country as well has to be informed because some of these people – they do it so slyly where they appear in more than one political party. This has to be known. Electronic submission is also uploaded by the IFP. The IFP looks forward to free and fair elections and we support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, the NFP welcomes the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Amendment Bill. The major thrust of these amendments addresses electoral issues with a view to ensuring smooth preparation and execution of the forthcoming 2016 local government elections, and this is to be welcomed.


Elections are more than just standing in a queue and making a mark on a ballot paper. An election is the viable manifestation of democracy, a birthright which the majority of our people were denied for a long time. Elections allow us to participate in the determination of who should lead us and give us a choice to change the course of history.


Within this context, we believe that the process of the election should be smooth, efficient and, most importantly, above reproach. The Bill we are deliberating on before us is intended to do just that. Several of the amendments are technical in nature and need no vigorous interrogation. Others are, however, substantive and warrant a comment.


The NFP in particular welcomes the increased use of technology being introduced in clause 3 of the Bill, providing for electronic submission in addition to the manual submission of nominations of candidates. It is the small, incremental improvements like this one in the screening of our electoral process which not only improve the political administrative interface by taking advantage of technological advances, but also enhance the integrity of our election, and we as South Africans are justifiably proud of this.


The NFP also welcomes the amendment that will enable a voter to reconsider his or her vote provided that the marked ballot has not been placed in the ballot box.


Finally, amendments such as those contained in the Bill before us strengthen the electoral process, enhance transparency and accountability and work towards perfecting the independence of the electoral process. Without such independence, the legitimacy of the electoral process will be questioned and, if that happens, we will be faced with the violation of the rights of millions of our people. That must never happen. The independence of the electoral process and in particular the integrity of the IEC must be jealously safeguarded from the reaches of self-serving politicians and parties. Through the tightening and continual refinement of our legislation, we can build a bulwark against political encroachment on our electoral system. The NFP supports this. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, we hope as the AIC that the amendments to the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Act of 2000 are going to bring solutions to the challenges affecting the IEC processes before, during and after the elections. They are an improvement on the part of the IEC. The payment of electoral deposits that is being modified is a great improvement indeed.


This Bill is also making provision for the electronic submission of candidate nomination documents. This will minimise the existence of irregularities during the elections. Recognising the authorised representatives for the submission of the party lists for candidates is going to discourage the parties from being engaged in squabbles that often result in the submission of two lists. It is hoped that the presiding officers, who are always problematic, will be trained thoroughly to understand these amendments in the use of temporary ID certificates and identity cards.


The expenses that are always incurred by the smaller parties ... [Inaudible.] ... for submission of the outstanding documents will now be a thing of the past. The offices of the commission’s local authorities will be used.


The Bill also guards against opportunists in terms of which the candidates are nominated by more than one party. Such candidates now will be automatically substituted.


The amendment to section 49 of Act 27 of 2000 by inserting the word “accidentally” may be a little bit confusing as it cannot be correctly determined that a voter has accidentally or deliberately marked so - it must be remembered that this may be a case of double standards on the part of the voter.


However, as the AIC we would love to promote ... [Inaudible.] ..  to be conducted, the results should not be declared, as was the case in ward 12 in the Matatiele Local Municipality at one of the stations where the AIC won four voting stations out of six. The ANC happened to just do away ... [Inaudible.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: ... [Inaudible.] ... one vote, but now they were declared winners. So that was a problem for the AIC because you happen to find ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, the problem is your time has expired.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very much.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Molo, Sihlalo kunye namalungu eNdlu yoWiso-mthetho, siyawuxhasa lo Mthetho siHlomelo uYilwayo. Iyinene into yokuba xa nibeka abantu abazitshomi zenu ezifana nooMashinini kumaziko abalulekileyo afana neKomishoni yoNyulo eZimeleyo nisenza unothanda wenu ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Chairperson and Members of the August House, greetings, we support this Amendment Bill.  It is true that you put your friends like Mashinini in the main centres like Independent Electoral Commission you still do what is good for you ...]

... you are running the risk of having an IEC that loses credibility.


Kaloku uyitshomi kaMsholozi, loo nto icacile. Okwesibini ... [He is indeed Msholozi’s friend, that is clear. Secondly...]


... when we refine the process to ensure free and fair elections next year, the issue of electronic submissions of candidates is welcomed because the previous system  was very cumbersome.


Kodwa niyakukhumbula ukuba sasiyithethe kwakudala siyi-UDM into ye ... [But do you still remember that we talked about this as UDM that ...]


... the information technology platform that is used to administer and run the elections.


UMongameli wam kudala esitsho kwaye ngoku asiyazi nokuba  ngoobani. Kungenzeka ukuba bayasiqhatha kuba kaloku kulapho zibiwa khona nezi voti. Nibangabaxakanisi abantu bethu phaya ezilalini kuba kaloku amaxhegwazana aza kufuna ukunikwa ithuba lokuba akhe acinge, lithi ngoku sele livotile kuthiwe maliye kumkhonto onevili ashiye ijoni. Sicela nisincede kuba sizakunijonga. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[My President has been saying this for a long time and we do not know who they are. You will find out they are telling lies because it is where the votes are stolen.  You must not confuse people in the villages because senior citizens need time to think, while they have already voted they will be told to vote for the ANC and leave UDM.  Please don’t do this we will be watching you.]


Thank you so much.


Mr D M GUMEDE: UKhongolose uyawuxhasa lo mthetho ngokuphelele, uthi abantu mabalandele uhulumeni kaKhongolose ... [The ANC supports this Bill, we are saying that the people must follow the ANC-led government...]


... and its innovation and new technology ...


... nezindlela ezintsha azifakayo eziholayo emhlabeni. Lokhu kukhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi uMashinini unesipiliyoni nekhono emhlabeni wonke. Akazange asebenze kuphela kodwa neNhlangano Yezizwe kanye namazwe amaningi avame ukucela kuye usizo lwemibono [consult]. Ngakho-ke lowo muntu ukhombisile ukuthi unaso isipiliyoni. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[...and new leading strategies it is introducing to the world. This clearly shows that Mashinini has experience and expertise the world requires. He did not only work, but the United Nations and many countries always consult him for advice. Therefore, that person has shown that he has the experience.]


We can see this innovation.


Ufaka i-innovation, ufaka nendlela entsha yokusebenza futhi eyimpumelelo. Uhulumeni kaKhongolose ngaphansi kobuholi bukaMsholozi wenze izinto eziningi ezibalulekile. Ukuthi nimthuka kangakanani futhi kangaki ngeke kukujikise lokho futhi ngeke kujike ulwazi lwabantu lokuthi uma benezifo emitholampilo sebelashwa kanjani; uma benezinkinga oNgqongqoshe bakhe babahlola kanjani abantu.


Into kuphela ebekade sinenkinga ngayo thina njengoKhongolose bekungamaphepha okukhetha [ballot papers] amaningi kodwa basithembisile ukuthi ngaphansi kukaMashinini osehole ukhetho ezindaweni eziningi, lokho uzokwazi ukuthi akugweme njengoba ebizwa ezinkingeni ezinkulu kwamanye amazwe afike awaphathe lawo mazwe, bese ukhetho luba olukhululekile nolungenzeleli [free and fair]. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[He is introducing innovation and new working strategies and he is successful. The ANC-led government under the leadership of Msholozi (Clan name.) has done many important things. No amount of insults is going to change that and it is also not going to change the knowledge the people have, if they have diseases they know how they’re treated in the clinics; and if they have problems they know how his Ministers do their oversight duties.


The only thing that we, as the ANC, had a problem with were many ballot papers but they had promised us that under the leadership of Mashinini, who has led elections in many places, will be able to avoid this; since he gets called in other countries and gets there and leads in those countries, and the elections become free and fair. Thank you.]]


Bill read a second time.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:


That the Report be adopted.



Mr S MOTAU: House Chair, this is about Statistics SA, a very important independent national government department accountable to the Minister in the Presidency: Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. The DA is of the very strong view that moving the department from the executive authority of the Treasury to the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, should not in any way compromise the independence of this very important institution.


The credibility of the data that this department produces and propagates demands this institutional independence. For this shift raises a very serious concern for us. Statistics SA identify the improvement of productivity and service delivery in the country as one of its strategic priorities. This is key. Another important priority is the advancement of confidence and trust in statistics. This goal is critical given the scepticism with which many people regard statistics. We have to make sure that the independence of this institution is protected. There can be no doubt that accurate and credible data enhances precise planning and costing and reduces wastage of scarce resources.


Statistics SA received an unqualified audit report for the financial year under review. However, the department needs to take serious actions to improve internal financial controls for this simple reason. The budget which is over R2,2 billion a year, the department incurred R4 million in fruitless and wasteful expenditure, and R416 000 in irregular expenditure. This is disturbing given the critical role that this department plays in the country. These failures must be investigated and there must be consequences where culpability has been established fairly within due process. The DA will, however, support this report.


Mr N P KHOZA: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the adoption of the budget review recommendation report from the Public Service portfolio committee because it is weak and fails to highlight any practical steps for challenges that are raised year in and year out. We cannot continue to adopt reports that offer suggestions and when issues persist we pretend as if we have not made recommendations in the past. Otherwise it renders these reports and such an important Parliament process useless.


The last three years’ budget review report recommended that Statistics SA must reduce vacancy rate. They did not do it or provide acceptable explanation why they did not, and we are again adopting a report making the same recommendations. This is why Statistics SA continues to underspend on their budget. Under such difficult budgeting reconditions the committee must recommend that the money be directed to fund free quality education for all. It is becoming an unacceptable trend for departments to underspend their budgets. It must not be taken lightly. The head of Statistics SA admitted himself that government is not using the information they collect to plan or evaluate service delivery. The report must be asking if government is using the information why allocate resources, to begin with.


The problem of accommodation is not only unique in the Statistics SA, but as long as government continues to rent buildings this problem will persists. Government must build its own buildings or but y them and stop renting. The EFF rejects the adoption of this report. We call on all people of South Africa to reject the ANC government in the 2016 local government elections for failing to provide proper roads and people are dying.


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP supports this Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR. We want to say that the movement of the department is strategic in the sense that it places the information and the data collected at the strategic position to ensure that it is dispensed properly. Whilst it was at the Treasury the focus tended to be much on finances and did not look at what was going on holistically whilst what is important is the issue of the information actually going to the departments.


But, of course, the other challenge is that on the one hand there is information that is being collected by the Statistics SA and on the other hand you have the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. You don’t really know what they are planning, monitoring or evaluating. We cannot satisfy ourselves that the information that is being collected is used properly. We run the risk of Statistics SA and its entity being an agency of wasteful expenditure if the information and the data they are collecting is not being used properly.


We also want to emphasised that the issue of the independence of this institution cannot be overemphasised because the meddling that goes on into such institution renders them useless if there is going to be a third hand. We are hopeful that moving forward the change that has been effected in terms of the strategic placement of Statistics SA is going to be beneficial. We must, of course, also look at the findings of the Auditor-General and respond positively to them because if there is fruitless and wasteful expenditure it speaks to weak internal controls and the absence of consequence management in that regard compounds the problem. We are saying that you must observe the due processes of the National Treasury and the supply chain management, SCM, processes must be observed properly and we must deviate away from neglecting to do that which is correct and proper. We support the BRRR report. Thanks.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chair, accurate statistics is the lifeblood, efficient and good governance and particularly so for developmental state like South Africa. Accurate statistics are needed to formulate policy and measure implementation to inform government decisions and keep citizens of the country up to date of development or lack thereof.


A perusal of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration as well as Planning , Monitoring and Evaluation on Statistics SA’s BRRR tabled here today suggests that Statistics SA is dispensing its mandate to the obligation to provide the government with accurate statistics in a satisfactory manner and the NFP welcomes this report.


We take note of some recommendations which we believe should be implemented without delay. For most being the filling of vacant posts. The nature of Statistics SA’s operation is such that high reliance is placed on adequate qualified personnel and vacancies have the potential to negatively impacts on Statistics SA to execute its mandate.


The recommendations which the NFP find somewhat alarming however, is that that Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation should ensure Statistics SA’s findings be taken into consideration when government departments are planning for the strategic and annual performance plans. If it transpires that the department has neglected to give due recognitions to Statistics SA’s findings it places a serious question mark over the planning and implementation of the department and warrants an investigation.


In conclusion, the NFP supports the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration as well as Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation on Statistics SA’s BRRR tabled here today. I thank you.

Mr M L D NTOMBELA: Chairperson and hon members, the Statistics SA plays an important role in building a state that is capable of driving a developmental and transformative agenda through providing credible and high quality statistics. Statistics SA received unqualified report. We therefore urge them to improve towards achieving a clean audit by, among other things, looking closely at their internal controls.


Having considered its annual report, the committee is satisfied with the annual performance as most of its targets have been achieved. However, there is room for improvement. While ensuring realignment with international standards, Statistics SA has become a significant global player through the promotion of statistical information and co-operation in South Africa, Africa and the world.


Hon Chair, the efficacy of statistical information supplied by Statistics SA at a grand scale, like they are doing at the moment, is something to be lauded. The information is critical to the economy. Such information is a valuable input for future planning processes and also a vital tool for the allocation of resources. We therefore cannot overemphasis the significance of sufficient budgetary allocation to this crucial institution in our quest of creating a developmental state. The ANC supports the budgetary recommendations and review of Statistics SA. I thank you. [Applause.]


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of Vote:

Mr S MOTAU: House Chair, let me start with the good news. The good news is that the DA would like to acknowledge the department’s clean audit report for the year under review which is a significant improvement from the previous year’s unqualified report.


However, the department oversees the implementation of the National Development Plan, NDP, and we look forward to interrogating the annual report completed by the department on the implementation of the NDP during the 2014-15 financial year. We are also keen to know what role the recently appointed national planning commissioners will play in this important task to get South Africa working efficiently and productively.


Another bit of good news is that the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, seems to be responding to some of the serious criticisms we have leveled against it in recent times. The agency achieved its first clean audit report since it was established in 2009. This is a very far cry from the disclaimers and qualified reports of previous years. However, the agency still managed to incur R266 000 in fruitless and wasteful expenditure and R580 000 in irregular expenditure during the financial year.


Furthermore, the stigma that the NYDA is being abused as an exclusive employment agency for ANC-linked young people persists. Whether this is mere perception as the government and the ANC insists is not the point. The point is that this problem must be addressed so that all deserving young South Africans can know that they will not be excluded from NYDA assistance because of their political affiliations.


This report also recommends that, given the array of responsibilities over government and the Public Service, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is underfunded and therefore additional funding must be allocated to the department as a matter of urgency. The DA disagrees. For this reason and due to reservations about the NYDA, the DA does not support the report.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, the EFF rejects the budget review and recommendation report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration.


Firstly, it is still not clear what this department is supposed to do. It appears to be one of those departmental institutions created to offload people from Luthuli House’s payroll and to give them jobs. The department, like all other departments, failed to spend its budgets. To suggest that they must be allocated more money whilst they could not even spend the budget allocated to them is not correct. The EFF cannot be party to that. We are not only making a mockery of taxpayers’ money, but it shows utter arrogance and disregard for their difficult economic conditions.


The committee did not even bother to find out why the department did not spend its allocated budget whilst we have such an unemployment rate in the country. This department is just a fancy post box for strategic documents that they cannot even claim ownership of, since the majority, if not all, were compiled by consultants.


The less said about the NYDA the better. It continues to use labour brokers and claim to create jobs for young people in this country. Hence we are saying young people of South Africa must reject the ANC government come the 2016 local elections because they failed to provide them with decent jobs, other than giving them orange overalls and work alongside South Africa’s roads. [Interjections.] They are continuing to pay R15 000 for three days for unaccredited training. Unfortunately, young black people are affected. [Time expired.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chair, it is now a matter of public record that in 2010 an amount of R106 million was spent, on what has been dubbed the kissing festival, by the NYDA. At the time we were all concerned about the spending patterns of the NYDA. So, we want to congratulate the board on now receiving a clean audit in terms of the finances of the NYDA, because where good is done we must acknowledge that. However, the reality is that people do not eat clean audits.


Umcwaningimabhuku akakunikezi umsebenzi, akakuniki amathuba ofuna ukuwathola. [The Auditor-General does not give you work, he does not provide you with the opportunities that you want.]


It just speaks to good and sound financial management in the absence of tangible programmes.


The immediate responsibility now for the NYDA – having turned the corner on what was an era of poor financial management at the time in 2010 and the years after – now they have a clean audit, is that a clean audit is not enough. It is simply not enough. The national footprint of the NYDA is not satisfactory. It continues to be inaccessible to the poorest of the poor, particularly in rural areas. The high cost of travelling which people have to endure when they are moving between places, which are the towns and cities, makes the NYDA even more inaccessible. Those are the things that we must deal with.


However, the question which we need to answer moving forward is whether the NYDA is relevant. We must give ourselves an honest response to that, because quite frankly we believe that there should be a youth Ministry and not an ad hoc approach of an agency which is like ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the main focus of the performance, monitoring and evaluation component of this hybrid department is on strengthening accountability and improving co-ordination in government, both between government departments and in the administration of government. There can be no doubt that this is a very important function which is of absolute necessity for efficient governance.


In light of the importance of the department, the NFP welcomes the clean audit which the Auditor-General has given both the department and the NYDA. We also welcome the recommendation that the portfolio committee acknowledges the continued improvement in the department’s financial and nonfinancial performance, and we fully support the call by the portfolio committee that additional funding must be allocated to the department as a matter of urgency.


However, the NYDA in its current form is a waste of taxpayers’ good money. Achieving a clean audit is commendable but what is more important is that the NYDA is failing to effectively address youth empowerment in South Africa. We need an agency that will truly represent the diversity of our youth; an agency that will serve the agenda of the youth; and an agency that will ultimately be a vehicle for real transformative and progressive youth empowerment.


In conclusion, the NFP supports the finding and recommendation of the Portfolio Committee of Public Service and Administration as well as Monitoring and Evaluation, as tabled in this report.


Ms B P MABE: Hon House Chair, I want to put it on record that for the past three years the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation received clean audits. So the statement that the department has failed to spend its budget is not true. It is misleading and it is unfounded.


The department’s focus on strengthening accountability and improving the co-ordination of government services has yielded positive results in the Public Service. We compliment the department for focusing on local government as this sphere sits at the coalface of service delivery. Through the programmes in the department, our oversight role has become more effective. The department has developed numerous tools to monitor and evaluate performance in the Public Service.


The committee therefore recommends that the annual results of the management’s performance assessment tools be released in September to assist portfolio committees to utilise their findings for effective oversight. We also wish to commend the department for having achieved a 50% employment of women in senior management positions.


The committee noted that the NYDA is prudently utilising its resources while adequately responding to the needs and aspirations of the youth of our country. They have exceeded their target during the year under review. They have successfully implemented a turnaround strategy which saw a lot of improvement regarding austerity measures in financial management. The strategy also contributed towards ... [Time expired.]


Question put.


Division demanded.


The House divided.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Five minutes are over. [Interjections.] Please, five minutes are over. You don’t take Parliament seriously. [Interjections.] Boroto must ... [Inaudible.] Five minutes must fall.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, take your seats. Hon Ndlozi, I have the Table staff monitoring the time. I don’t even have to look. Don’t worry about that.


AYES - 136: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Davies, R H; Dlakude, D E; Dlomo, B J; Dunjwa, M L; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gina, N; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jafta, S M; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, M D; Kekana, E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khubisa, N M; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Madella, A F; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masutha, T M; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnguni, P J; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Patel, E; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Xego-Sovita, S T; Yengeni, L E.


NOES - 7:  Hlophe, H O; Lotriet, A; Mazzone, N W A; Motau, S C; Ndlozi, M Q; Steenhuisen, J H; Waters, M.



Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.


Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, you said there were 136 yes votes?




Mr M WATERS: One has to ask where the 249 ANC members are, actually. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I can’t answer that question.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: They are sleeping. That’s the answer. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon Chief Whip.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We are monitoring that alliance. We will get them right.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Chief Whip.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, may I ask a question to get clarity? Which alliance is it: the tripartite alliance ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I am not getting into that. I’m not getting into that, hon Steenhuisen.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr N P KHOZA: House Chair, the EFF rejects the adoption of the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration. It must be put on record that the government does not have internal capacity and depends completely on service providers. That somehow makes the functions of the Department of the Public Service and Administration rather unnecessary.


In fact, this department is part of the problem of why government today has overstaffed and overpaid managers, while front-line service delivery desks are empty, or stuck with people who are poorly trained or not competent.


What we have today is a government of senior contract managers whose sole responsibility is to manage contracts between government and service providers. Again, like all other departments, underexpenditure by government must be a serious cause for concern for all of us. With the underexpenditure amount of R60 million, we could send more 850 students to university for a free quality education, including accommodation and meals.


The majority of Thusong Service Centres, in particular the ones in rural areas, are operating under unspeakable conditions. When we visited the Thusong Centre in Cofimvaba, there was no space, no resources and no staff. It was shocking. Four social workers were forced to consult in one room.

The National School of Government is a waste of money. We do not need another Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama. What we need is proper vocational and technical training to teach our young people the much-needed skills to build a capable state. We call on all people of South Africa to reject the ANC government in the 2016 local government elections.


Mr S C MOTAU: House Chair, the Department of Public Service and Administration’s annual report proudly states that 93% of its targets were achieved. But what did the department actually do? Well, more than half of the targets involved writing reports. There is, for instance, a report on the disciplinary processes in the Public Service. So, is discipline working? Are officials being held accountable? We don’t know. There is a report on recruitment practices. Does this mean that the right people are being employed for the right jobs? [Interjections.] We can’t say.


Part of the department’s mandate is to build an effective and professional Public Service. But this provides no data on exactly how many people the Public Service employs, how much they are paid, or how well or poorly they are functioning. The department uses the word “achieved” in a very narrow sense. It achieved writing reports; that’s what it achieved.


But it is the self-congratulatory “achieved”, alongside the target that a mandate be sought for the wage negotiations through the Public Service Bargaining Council that is most concerning. It achieved getting the mandate. But the department agreed to more than the mandated amount, resulting in Minister Nene telling this Parliament that the wage agreement had led to a budget shortfall this year of R12,2 billion. Calling that “achieved” shows an utter lack of understanding for the regard that these implications have for the country.


The DA supports this report because it reflects all the DA’s immediate recommendations and concerns. However – and this is very important – what difference the department actually makes with its money and whether it even needs to exist at all requires much deeper interrogation.


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chair, the presence of the National School of Government on its own is an admission of a lack of capacity in the Public Service, because if people had the requisite skills and expertise there would be no need for them to be beefed up in the manner that they are being beefed up. This is evident across the Public Service and government departments with the audit outcomes of the Auditor-General. We are finding, persistently, that there are shortcomings in observing even the most basic of things that departments are supposed to be doing.


The Department of Water Affairs and Sanitation had to give nine written warnings to their deputy directors-general who simply did not know how to change an Annual Performance Plan, APP. Now, if you have that type of incompetence at the top, it says that at the bottom things are even worse. The issue is that people are being employed on the basis of party membership cards on who they know, as opposed to what they know. That is why the Public Service is in the state that it is in. Otherwise, really, there would be no need for a National School of Government to go and give extra skills. What is going on in the interview process if you have to say later that there is a problem?


If you go to municipalities – just one example – your CFOs, you have been told, have been given extra time to catch up and improve their qualifications simply because the capacity is not there. So, until we admit in the truest sense of the word that there is a problem, we will continue to make a noise like this, whereas we are supposed to be addressing the issue – because this speaks to the lives of the people. It’s not about those whose lives are better on my right. So, let us really do everything possible to support the recommendations of the report, because they speak to correcting that which is wrong. Otherwise, the recommendations would not be in the report if all these things were not happening. Ngakho inkinga ikhona. Siyabonga. [So, the problem is there. Thank you.] [Time expired.]


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, the stated purpose of the Department of Public Service and Administration is to implement and co-ordinate interventions, which are aimed at achieving an efficient, effective and development-oriented Public Service. These requirements are essential elements of a capable and developmental state, as envisioned in the National Development Plan 2030.


The question we ask is: Is the department executing its mandate properly? The answer is no. When we look at the report tabled here today, the multiple recommendations contained in it give us a clear indication that the department and its entities have much to improve upon.


Recommendations such as that the department must ensure that in the entire Public Service equity targets are met and taken up to 50% over the medium term and that senior management must address the slow response in addressing the root causes of poor audit outcomes all show us that there are management challenges in the department that need to be ironed out and ironed out swiftly.


The recommendations of the portfolio committee on the department’s entities however indicate a reasonable measure of success and efficiency, and the NFP gives credit where it is due. In particular, we join the portfolio committee in complimenting the National School of Government for strategising to design a hybrid curriculum that will cater for occupational skills and academic and professional platforms.


The NFP supports the findings and recommendations of the report. I thank you.


Ms B P MABE: Hon Chair, the department and entities are led by example as all received clean audits. The Ministry introduced a number of legislative and policy reforms in the Public Service, which take public administration forward as guided by the National Development Plan, NDP.


Amongst the legislative reforms introduced during the year under review was the Public Administration Management Act of 2014, coupled recently with the revised Public Service Regulations, which will go long way towards reforming and transforming the Public Service in terms of prompt service delivery and prohibiting public servants from doing business with the state.


We further noted progress thus far regarding the department monitoring the employment equity target of 2% for people with disabilities, and the recruitment target of 50% women in senior management.


The facilitation of learnerships for improving skills and creating employment opportunities for young graduates is commendable and needs to be supported. The School of Government implemented the roll-out of Breaking Barriers to Entry programme, which benefited unemployed youth graduates and secured employment in the Public Service.


The committee further appreciates the improvement with regard to the financial disclosure framework in the Public Service. We also commend public servants for voluntarily using the e-disclosure facility in their numbers. This is a sign that we are moving towards professionalising the Public Service. The Public Service Commission remains our strategic partner in holding the executive accountable.

Fellow young South Africans, we have just witnessed a very ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, hon member. [Applause.] [Interjections.] Thank you, hon members. Order!


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.


Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Hon House Chair, could you ask the Table staff to take out the hon Mokause here on our screens. We don’t love seeing her picture. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Order! Order! Order, hon members!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, we also want to indicate that we don’t take people whose caucus doesn’t appreciate them by giving them an opportunity to come and even make speeches. [Interjections.] We also don’t appreciate ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! You’ve made your point.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Their role is to vent howl ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Order! Order, hon member!




There was no debate.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr T E MULAUDZI: Ndi a livhuwa, Mutshimbidzamushumo, Mudzulatshidulo, ḽihoro ḽa EFF ḽi khou hanedza muvhigo u no khou bva kha Komiti ya Zwa vhuendi. [Thank you Chairperson, the EFF rejects the report from the Portfolio Committee on Transport.]


Chairperson, the time for plans has gone. The department must be implementing programmes for better service delivery on our roads. Under expenditure in this department must send a strong alarm to the community that there is a crisis here. The R7,7 billion rand which was awarded to the taxi scrapping administrator for scrapping taxis, for a seven year project which has failed and the department extended it for two years which is going to expire in March 2016 and the department is intending again to extend this contract without going to the tender process. The Minister must know people out there are still waiting for her to remove those Electronic Toll Collection in SA, e-tolls, gantries, people are not going to pay she must not think we forget e-toll fees must fall.


Poor condition of the public infrastructure especially the public roads are unconstitutional and illegal and it must be condemned with the contempt it deserves. South African roads network continue to perpetuate apartheid economy and cycle pattern and the ANC government has no interest of changing it. The majority of informal settlements are far from places of work. The majority of people are forced to travel long distances in poor road conditions like Moloto Road. While all the roads, rail and ports are used to extract mineral resources and nothing else, it is now clear to everyone that Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa is not capable to manage or deliver any services without corrupt officials, some with fake qualifications, taking their share let alone implementing of the rail rolling acquisitions stock organogram. The EFF rejects this report.


Mr K P SITHOLE: Kulungile. [It is okay.] Hon House Chair, in maximising the contribution of transport to the economic and social development goals of society in providing safe, reliable and efficient fully integrated transport system for road and freight users, the department must ensure that as an entity, it must run at the highest optimal levels in order for it to be able to successfully meet its strategic priorities, in particular to areas of decreasing accidents and incidents across our different modes of transport and improving infrastructure, access and mobility in our rural and peri-urban areas.


In this regard, we look forward for greater departmental urgency being provided for the rapid rail project for Moloto Road Development Corridor as well as that the infrastructure improvement as the corridor as it currently stands, is a death threat on our road infrastructure. In terms of financial performance we note with concern, the excessively high amount of money still being spent on consultants in The National Traffic Information System, eNatis, and road transport programmes. Skills must be developed internally and excessive use of exorbitant fees of consultants must be minimised. The IFP supports this Budget. I thank you.


Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, on paper the performance of the department seems to be satisfactory but in reality our national department is ailing. Overcrowded roads, poor infrastructure development, a politically contentious e-toll system and one of the highest per capita death rates in the world are all symptoms of inadequate planning and development in our transport sector.


The inability of the department to make progress on the National Transport Master Plan 2050, NATMAP, is a fine example of inadequate planning. The department reported that consultations will be prioritised in the next financial year and NATMAP will subsequently be resubmitted to Cabinet for approval. The question is: What happens if the department is not ready next year? Will it simply postpone finalisation once more? And then again and again, the lack of suitable forward planning has dumped South Africa in an energy crisis and soon we will be reaping the bitter fruits of insufficient forward planning in the provision of water. How long will it be before we are faced with a transport crisis in our country once again? The NFP believes that the low service levels, lack of flexibility in capital investment delays by national rail operator will further paralyse the potential of our sensitive rail network. Similarly, the roll out of the Bus Rapid Transit, BRT, system, across our metros is uncoordinated and haphazard and is dismally in the objective of providing the millions of South Africans, who have to rely on public transport, to a system that is reliable, safe and affordable.


These are all systems which point to a sector heading for a crisis. Well, despite our concerns, the NFP supports this Budget Review and Recommendations Report, BRRR, Report. Thank you.


Mr M S F DE FREITAS: House Chair, will the DA supports the transport Budget Review and Recommendations Report, BRRR, Report remain concerned with the lack of alignment of the core mandates of each of the entities in accordance with the respective legislation, hence the responsibilities thus overlapping in most cases. The various reports consistently expressed concern of the lack of required expertise and skills in the department and its entities and this is an indictment to the ANC’s cadre deployment policy.


After the embarrassing cancellation of the 2014 Road Safety Summit, as the 2013 summit recommendations were not addressed the Minister continued to do nothing in reducing the road carnage and deaths. This is unambiguously demonstrated month after month as thousands continue to die. The department continues to ignore the Gauteng motorists’ opposition to e-tolls, even after the courts showed that e-tolls in the Western Cape will be a problem. Thank you.


Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, during the period under review, the transport sector has played its part with a view to responding to the National Development Plan, NDP, in the maritime sector. We have moved in strides to intensify our input into Operation Phakisa to ensure that the sector transforms and plays its optimal role within the ocean economy. Some major achievement during the year under review included the draft Multi-Modal Transport Planning and Co-Ordination Bill was developed. The Bill will assist in facilitating integrated micro transport system planning in view of guiding investment in the sector. The Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, council was approved by the Ministry, launched during the period under review. The council will aim to improve sector transformation and economic performance. Chairperson ...


I-ANC iyasisekela lesi Sabelomali kodwa kumele ngidlulise nakhu okulandelayo. Singamalungu ekomidi lezokuthutha sibonga kuqala ngokwazisa amaqembu ombusazwe asisekelile lesi Sabelomali. Singamalungu ekomidi lezokuthutha sibona ukuthi kukhona ukudideka kwamanye amaqembu aphikisayo ngoba uma sisekomidini siyaphikisana kepha sigcina ngokuvumelana. Amalungu lawo, uwathola echobozela kuhle kwamakoti egoyile kodwa uma singena kuleNdlu yesiShayamthetho, ikakhulukazi uma begibela kwindawo yesikhulumi bavukelwa amafufunyane sengathi bathelwe ngezibonkolo. Bavuka umbhejazana ngokuhlasela uHulumeni oholwa u-ANC ngezibhamu zenjoloba kubakaki. Lokhu kuholela ekutheni imibono yabo ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.] Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[The ANC supports the Budget Vote but I must say the following. As the members of the Portfolio Committee on Transport we would like to thank the political parties that supported this Budget Vote. As the members of the Portfolio Committee on Transport we think there is some confusion in the other opposition parties because when we are in the committee we disagree but we come to an agreement at the end. You find those members acting shy like a new bride but when we come to this House, especially when they are at the podium they become outraged. They suddenly become berserk and attack the ANC-led government and fire rubber bullets. This makes their opinions ... [Time Expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]]

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved that the Report be adopted.


Mr J VOS: Madam Chairperson, much has already bee said on the impact of the visa regulations on the tourism sector, therefore I will turn my attention to what is happening to our local tourism sector. The reality is that domestic tourism is shrinking. When international trend is tourism growth why are our citizens doing less travel? Well, tourism and travel for South Africans are just too expensive. The department’s Sho’t Left marketing campaign is too narrow, instead this campaign should be coupled with a discount proposal giving consideration for ideal pricing system whereby South Africans can go on free or discounted entry to government owned national parks, reserves, museums and the like. This will also address the issue of affordability and limited geographic spread.


Further problem with the local tourism is that almost 700 municipal owned resorts remain under utilised throughout South Africa. A viable solution is to establish partnerships with the private sector to convert these resorts into affordable budget holiday destinations. Clearly, there is a lack of laws to approach to turning around these under utilised municipal and government owned resorts, which if sorted out could go a long way to boost domestic tourism figures in South Africa. We need real measures to ensure that tourism is made affordable. If we get this right, more employment opportunities and more emerging small businesses will be created. Therefore, it is without doubt that tourism can achieve these objectives and can also be used as an effective tool to create jobs, provide opportunities and bring South Africans together. Therefore, the DA supports the Budget Recommendations. Thank you.


Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of Portfolio Committee on Tourism. South Africa has one of the most sought after landscape in the whole world, complemented by its rich cultural and historical attractions. The World Economic Forum travel and tourism competitive index for 2015 ranked South Africa in a fairly averaged 48th position out of a list of 141 countries. They identified serious weakness relating to security and tough migration rules. This department has been very weak and allowed itself to be bulled by the Department of Home Affairs in to accepting migration regulations that it new would hurt the tourism industry. More importantly, this department has been unable to transform the tourism industry in a significant way. Your own report indicates that black people still do not have access to tourism opportunity and they are not touring the country as much as they should. The majority of those who benefit are land owners and those who own guest houses.


The multiplier effects of the economy are not as good as they ought to be because your department has been dragging its feet in transforming this industry. This Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, introduces no new thinking that will ensure that we tap on the potential that tourism has for the country. It says nothing about reviving the townships and rural economies to ensure that they also become tourist attractions. It says nothing about ensuring that our country’s cultural and historical heritage is promoted and used tourist’s attraction.


We call upon all the people of South Africa to reject the ANC government in 2016 for failing to provide basic services. Thank you.


Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, May I address you before my colleague. On a point of congratulation, we have to congratulate the hon Minister. He is the only Minister, the Minister of Tourism that has been in the House when the BRRR of a department is being discussed.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the congratulation. Thank you.


Mr R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, this department is moving in a right direction working with Tourism South Africa as its entity and very able being led by its Minister, hon Derrick Hannekom. Yes, there are challenges regarding the competition with other countries of the world. Tourism rated corporate conferencing is big business and a substantial revenue generator to South Africa. We need to ensure that our service remain world-class in order to continue to attract such business. The recent recession has hit tourism hard in our country, not only through the revenue daunting but also because of the knock on, on subsequent job losses that it causes. We have also seen foreign tourists cancelling their visits to South Africa because of xenophobic related violence as well as the spread of ebola in some of the African States in the continent. The good news is that South African tourism is keeping its books clean and must be commended for this. The fact that the department had no mechanism to fund tourism development is a serious challenge and must be addressed. As a key contributor to jobs and economic growth this sector, government must provide it with assistance. Policy and legislative framework must be carefully thought through before enacting to ensure that there will be no unforeseen consequences that may affect the flow of tourism into South Africa.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair. Minister, thank you for being present here today. The Department of Tourism has consistently been the top performing state department in the past and the consistent growth and performance in the tourism sector has been testimony to the efficiency of the department. The BRRR tabled by the Portfolio Committee on Tourism today however, indicates that the department is not performing optimally as it had in the past. With its overall service delivery performance rating dropping from 89% in 2013-2014 to 84% in 2014-2015, of particular concern to the NFP is the performance raring of 62,2% which the department has attained for domestic tourism management. The recent fiasco brought about by the visa regulation which, was implemented by the Department of Home Affairs have had a noticeable impact on the arrival of international tourists. However, recent measures put in place hopefully, will result in an increase in international tourism once again. The decline must be counted with renewed effort to boost domestic tourism and the department needs to take a serious look at its comparative lack of achievement in stimulating this programme in its service delivery performance. The NFP has also taken note of the Auditor-General’s opinion for the 2014-2015 financial year that the Department of Tourism had a financially unqualified audit with compliance finding. This represents a regression if compared with 2013-2014 financial year where the department obtained a clean audit and we express the hope that the department will pay close attention to the Auditor-General’s recommendations which are summarised in this report.


In conclusion, the NFP is in agreement with the highly relevant recommendations contained in the BRRR tabled report and supports it. Thank you.


Ms B T NGCOBO: Hon House Chairperson, as it has been said by the other members, the department obtained an unqualified audit opinion from the Auditor-General with a caution that mis-statements must not be seen in future; correct accounting treatment of expanded public works must be maintained to avoid unqualified audit opinion in the current financial year. The committee observed that the department needs to improve on a number of issues particularly around transformation and inter-governmental collaboration.


The department is implementing a number of programmes to address the issue of the challenges that have been mentioned about transformation. An agreement with other departments has already been signed so that there is cohesive working together with other departments. The 2014-2015 financial has been the most difficult year for tourism in South Africa and Africa particularly, due to the outbreak of ebola in West Africa which led to travel advisories issued against South Africa. The sector was also grappling with the issue of immigration regulations which is being dealt with and various options are being recommended to mitigate unintended consequences of this sector.


The Minister of Tourism has reviewed how the South African tourism fulfils its mandate to market South Africa as a world-class destination. This report will also provide a map that will be a game changer in marketing South Africa culminating to increased international tourist arrivals in the country. If and when the economy improves, the Minister of Finance considers increasing the amount of budget ring-fenced for domestic tourism to improve domestic tourism. We support this. [Applause.]


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms I N M TARABELLA: House Chair, we would like to urge the department to improve its synergy with the Commission on Gender Equality, CGE, and all the relevant stakeholders especially the departments that are actually responsible for ensuring that it achieves its mandate, like the Small Business and economic development departments. And not also forgetting the Department of Justice.


As the DA, we would also like to ensure that there is less blame on lack of personnel as it is the root cause of poor performance. Vacancy rates sits at 14,9% and we believe that all funded vacancies have to be filled. Spending 98% on the budget yet achieving overall 36 of their targets is totally unacceptable because this brings stress on the budget and the staff. The targets must be smart and achievable as recommended by the Auditor-General. The department must avoid all costs virements across programmes. Virements must be norms but done when absolutely necessary.


Poor planning must be avoided. Such actions can lead to corrupt activities. The core programme of the department is economic empowerment of women which receives only R16 million of the budget, which is a mere 15% of the budget with staff members of about 10 as compared to the administration programme which receives about R82 million of the budget with 70 personnel.


We have seen lack of accountability and planning that has led to fruitless and wasteful expenditure of about R2,9 million, which is due to supply chain management. For such a small department, one wouldn’t expect to see fruitless and wasteful expenditure especially if you look at the personnel that the department have that ranges from level 14 to 16. [Interjections.]




Ms I N M TARABELLA: Okay. As the DA we support the Report and the recommendation. Thank you.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, EFF reject the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, of the Portfolio Committee on Women in the Presidency. Since the transfer of the functions in this department from the Department of Social Development, there has been no significant impact made other than creating jobs for ANC cadres and of funding programmes and enabling women throughout South Africa to go and protest for the protection of one man, the President of the country.


It cannot perform basic functions because key funded positions have not been filled, mandates have not been clarified and budgets have not been spent. The reality is that this department is doing nothing while in this country women continue to be spectators in the economy and in government. 21 years after the attainment of freedom, women occupy 3,6% of chief executive officer, CEO, positions. 5,5% of chairperson positions, 17,1% of directorship and 21% of executive management positions in the country. This cannot be acceptable. That is why the EFF cannot be party to this Report.


The reality is that the majority of rural women are still leaving in bondage, without access to education, water, quality health care, proper housing and even land. Women do not own land in South Africa. The reality is that women continue to be subjected to brutal criminal activities. Sexual assault and rape remain highest categories of crime in South Africa with statistics claiming that up to 3 600 women are raped in this country on a daily basis. Women are not protected while the ANC government go all out and protect one man. While we ... [Time expired.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much hon member, your time has expired. [Interjections.]


Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... a situation as bad as this one, we have a department that has no plans and strategy. We call upon ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, hon member your time has expired.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... women of South Africa to reject the government of the ANC in 2016. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, this department has been set up for failure when its predecessor, the former department of women, children and people with disabilities was allocated a measly budget and an inadequate leader in the former Minister Lulu Xingwana.


Now the Department of Women in the Presidency faces similar challenges. It again received limited funding. It only receives R185 million of which it must transfer R67 million to the CGE. Once it has met its salary obligations, it is left with roughly R40 million. It goes without saying that this is insufficient to fulfill its mandate. As I always remind you, its much less money than what we have spent on Nkandla. What a shame!


It is also important to note that the department spent its entire budget; however it failed to meet 64% of its target. It also has several vacancies which remain vacant.


Another issue of concern is the failure of this department to submit documents or reports to Parliament on time. An example of this reveals the fact that some of us have already travelled UN to participate in the Commission on the Status of Women, CSW, but we have yet to see the country report and it has been nine months.


In addition, I remain concerned with the department’s event-based approach. With little funds to its disposal, I am not convinced that once-off indabas which are normally accompanied with much funfair, is the right approach.


Also, this department at this stage, seems not to know what it is monitoring or evaluating. It is still looking at monitoring and evaluation tool.


Finally, hon Chairperson, for as long as gender-based violence is on the increase and for as long as women still earn less than men and for as long as they continue to bear the brunt of poverty and unemployment, this department and the CGE has a mammoth task ahead. However, it will continue to fail in its constitutional imperatives and its international obligations of ensuring true and meaningful women’s empowerment, if it does not receive adequate funding and requisite support from other departments. Thank you.


Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon House Chair, hon Ministers and hon members. One of the key issues that this department should seek to do with urgency in order to maximise women beneficiation from the execution of its mandate, is to ensure that the ministry has clear mechanisms of monitoring and evaluation and the extent to which all government departments are mainstreaming women empowerment including a girl-child. In this regard, recourse must be defined in the event of some departments failing in this important societal work. Primary to the above is an urgent need by the department to clearly articulate its mandate and how it co-operates with other departments at all levels of government.


The National Gender Policy Framework, NGPF, must be aligned to the National Development Plan, NDP, and all the gaps therefore, be addressed with urgency. This will then present a framework for the country on how to collectively deal with issues of gender and women development.


An urgent debate on how to strengthen and capacitate the gender commission must take place such that it is able to hold accountable and with recourse mechanisms anybody, any institution and private sector that does not comply with the provisions of the NGPF.


Lastly, the empowerment of the CGE must appreciate Kader Asmal’s Report as well as the processes of the reviewing of Chapter 9 institutions. The UDM supports the Report.


Ms P BHENGU: House Chairperson, the Department of Women in the Presidency came into existence in July 2014. Prior to its establishment, an amount of R218,5 million was allocated to the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities. Following the establishment of the new department and the transfer of functions related to children and people with disabilities to the Department of Social Development, the budget decreased to R185,5 million as R33 million was transferred to the Department of Social Development. This led the new department with an appropriation of R185 million.


As such, given the changes in the mandate structure and resource allocation, a year-on-year analysis of funds appropriated is not feasible as the programmes in staff compliment change. Hence, comparing the budget to the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities would not be entirely relevant given the different mandate programmes and resource allocation.

Notwithstanding, that it must be noted that however, R87 million of the R185 million constitutes the transfer payment to the CGE. As such, the Department of Women in the Presidency was left with an operating budget of R118 million. It has received an unqualified audit opinion. Regarding incorporating the above priorities in the work of the department, it has through its redesigned process developed a programme focused on social, political and economic participation and empowerment of women which is envisaged to promote accessibility of economic opportunities for women as well as undertake their oversight of the implementation of policies and the programmes for women empowerment and economic participation.


The department has therefore, committed itself to ensure that in the next five years, women’s socioeconomic empowerment and rights are mainstreamed across all sectors of society through its identified strategic objectives. Therefore, the ANC supports the Report. [Applause.]


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Mr R T C WALTERS: The DA supports the recommendations as a fair affection of the committee’s concerns. However, we also want to note that this report reflects on the current framework of service delivery and budgetary performance against targets. It is the DA’s view that this framework being reported on is in itself flawed.


Firstly, the moral of state ownership of restituted or redistributed land is not a formula for freedom. Currently the supposed beneficiaries of land reform are kept in electro bondage to a state or communal ownership arrangements rather than our citizens proudly controlling their own destinies. Ultimately, individual private ownership of restituted and redistributed land by beneficiaries is synonymous with a real and meaningful redress. And one form of disposition cannot be replaced with another form; there is a difference between being a free citizen rather than a dependant subject.


Secondly, piecemeal policy developments using the legislative processes as an extension of an election campaign and continuous pandering to populism is unfair to all stakeholders in land reform and society at large. It leaves a legacy of distrust and a lack of confidence in our society’s ability to solve its own problems. It balkanises the society and encourages withdrawal from positive solutions. None of us can afford this if we truly aspire to a fair society.


Lastly, opportunity for change and opportunities for jobs will not be created in a setting where incompetence, wastage and policy confusion is the norm. I thank you.


Mr S P MHLONGO: The EFF rejects the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land reform Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR. The problem with land reform in South Africa is twofold. Firstly, the transfer of stolen land from those who stole it back to black people is painfully slow. Secondly, even among those very few who got their land back, land reform has not been done in a way that ensures that people are better off than they were before land reform.

Land reform is painfully slow because of one very simple reason and that is section 25 of the Constitution that obliges the state to pay compensation for the current illegitimate owners of the land. Over the past 21 years the government has to date managed to transfer only about 8% back to black people through farms that were previously white-owned at the cost to the state of approximately R26 billion between 1994 and 2014 for the restitution programme alone.


Although many argue that the state is not budgeting enough for land reform, our argument is that the state should not in the first place budget for the reclamation of the stolen land. That makes matters worse. The ANC is not using in full force provisions of the Constitution limited as it may be. We ask the ANC to work with us in amending section 25 of the Constitution to fast tract land reform. We further call on government to stop legitimatising land dispossession that predates 1913.


All land in South Africa was stolen from black people at gun point and most of it was stolen away before 1913. The Restitution Amendment Act ... [Interjections.]


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much Mhlonitjhwa [Honourable.] Njomane ... [Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: ... is just going to act. In conclusion, people of South Africa must reject ANC in the 2016 local government elections for failing to restore land to our people. Thank you.


Mr M L W FILTANE: Budget follows policy. [Interjections.]


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon members.


Mr M L W FILTANE: The UDM encourages the department to dig deeper with regard to consulting with institutions of traditional leadership in so far as the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, SPLUMA, is concerned. Land management should be addressed in a manner that response to both economic and social changes facing our people and contribute to social cohesion.


It must be avoided at all cost that legislation results in tensions and fights that will certainly undermine the very intension of ensuring that land is beneficial to all the citizens of the country.


Important to the priorities of this department should be the acquisition of land for more South African people rather than running developmental programmes. This must be the function of other lined departments. The resources of this department must be directed towards securing more land and bring more capacity in terms of their research function and more land should be made available for women.


The conceded lack of capacity in the department in so far as project management is concerned affects its ability to deliver on the mandate. It does that very severely. This is widely evident from its under expenditure of more than R50 million when land is not used productively.


Poverty continues to define our people particularly in rural areas. It is highly unlikely that the department will be able to manage the agri-parks, handover this function to the department of agriculture, so we recommend. Departments should understand that land is an asset.


Although the UDM supports the budget as it stands, but we advocate for a different land policy in order for budget to be spend more productively. The department should within six months report to Parliament how it will turn around this situation in so far as poor project management is concerned. We support the budget as it stands under the circumstances. I thank you.


PRINCE R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, this department strives to create and maintain equitable and sustainable land dispensation which will ensure rural development, employment and continued social and economic advancement of all South Africans. The department’s priorities are linked to the National Development Plan which must inter alia ensure a gradient transformation and improve food security.


South Africa finds itself in an increasingly desperate situation in respect of water shortages. Rural areas and small scale subsistence farmers are finding themselves without water necessary to sustain not only their crops but also their homes. Surplus must be ensured to those most in need. By taking care of the rural population, the government will be helping the cities because it is these rural communities where the damage to the water supply is beginning due to lack of access to water.


Basic infrastructure in rural areas must be fast tracked as many outer lying areas are still without access to educational facilities, public transport and healthcare. Internally and of great concern is the notable increase in irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure which has increased by 12%. This must be immediately constrained and harsh sanctions mitted out for those found to be contravening established supply chain management principles.


The above has been exacerbated by lack of daily and monthly controls as noted by the Auditor-General and must be put in place so as to ensure accurate recording and financial compliance and performance information. The IFP supports the ... [Time expired.]


Prof N M KHUBISA: The BRRR tabled by the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform today suggest that the department is barely achieving 52.4% success rate in achieving its service delivery performance. At face value this might seem like an acceptable rate of success but closer scrutiny reveals that whereas the department has achieved significant performance ratings in some of the service delivery performance targets, it has achieved a mere 30% of the land reform programme. The NFP cannot accept this dismal performance indicator.


Land reform or rather the lack of land reform is a time bomb for social discontent and upheaval which is bubbling beneath the surface. For hundreds of years the indigenous people of this country have suffered the indignity of restricted access to it and dispossession of land. And here we are 20 years after attaining our democratic freedom; the majority of people are still without access to land.


There can be no excuse for this continued injustice against our people and must be addressed urgently. The NFP believes that not enough funds are made available for rural development and land reform and welcomes the recommendations of the portfolio committee for more funding to be made available. More funds however will not guarantee orderly and purposeful rural development nor will it guarantee just and equitable land reform. Political willingness and thorough forward planning are both key requirements for the department to execute its mandate efficiently and effectively. Both are unfortunately absent right now. Despite our concerns, the NFP welcomes and support the recommendation of the BRRR. Thank you.


Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Chair, the budget is a tool used to change the lives of the people especially the poor rural people. The department got an unqualified financial report in 2014-2015 financial year with matters of emphasis whereby the department has been able to develop a plan to deal with those findings to avoid the recurring of matters identified in the financial audited report.


The department has been able to spend 99% of its R9.4billion to provide skills to young people, to provide post-settlement support to land restitution and land redistribution beneficiaries to ensure that rural areas are well developed. But a lot still needs to be done to align the budget allocation with the performance and also to strengthen compliance to Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, to avoid irregular, wasteful and fruitless expenditure by the department.


The department has been able to implement some of the resolutions taken in the previous year budget review recommendation report in 2014 and a plan is in place to implement some of the outstanding resolutions. Restitution is not an event but it is a process. It uses its allocation of R2.9billion to restore land to its rightful owners including land ownership and sustainable development and provide financial compensation to qualifying beneficiaries.


The restitution commission has achieved its target and exceeded some of its target. There is no reason for the committee not to adopt this report. As the ANC we support the report.


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Mr N M PAULSEN: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. Agriculture in South Africa is at a crossroads, and only decisive leadership will help steer this industry into becoming the growth sector it used to be.


South Africa is one of the very few global players not protecting its agriculture. As part of the agreement with the United States, for South Africa to be included in the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act, the ANC has agreed to open our gates for about 25 000 tons of US chicken to enter our ports every year. You do not need a degree in rocket science to know that the consequences of that would be very dire for our local poultry farmers, further reducing agricultural employment. Historically, agriculture accounted for approximately 15,2% of GDP in the 1950s and 10% in the 1960s. It now accounts for less than 3% of GDP. This is a direct result of bad policy choices.


South Africa has about 12% arable land, and the contribution of agriculture to the GDP is less than 3%. It employs less than 3% of the labour force. In contrast with our trading partners in the Brics, agriculture in China contributed ... 


Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, would you ask the hon member if he would take a question about “papgeld” [maintenance for child support]? [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, we are doing declarations; we don’t ask questions, hon member. Continue, hon Paulsen.


Mr N M PAULSEN: Only 13% of its land is considered arable, only 9% of the land in Brazil is considered arable, but about 15,1% of its total employment comes from agriculture. These countries are able to perform the way they do because they prioritise protecting and subsidising their agricultural sectors. Who are we to think that we can improve? Who are we to think that we can improve agricultural performance without safeguarding the interests of farmers? This department has done very little to prevent loss of agricultural land to the game industry, which is proving to be a haven for the rich, including our own Deputy President ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen, your time has now expired.


Mr N M PAULSEN: ... who has no shame in buying buffalo for millions of rand whilst our people die of hunger. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen, please!


Mr N M PAULSEN: We call on the people of South Africa to reject the ANC government in the 2016 local government election ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen! Hon Paulsen, please!


Mr N M PAULSEN: ... for failing to transform agriculture.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Paulsen, you must observe Rule 49. [Interjections.]


Ms H O HLOPHE: Chairperson, on a point of order, before the hon member starts: Hon Paulsen’s time was taken by the DA. [Interjections.] You didn’t give it back.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I should not even explain this. Every time somebody gets up, the clock stops. DA continue.


Me Z JONGBLOED: Voorsitter, die spreekwoord lui dat nuwe besems skoon vee, en dis presies wat die Minister van Landbou, Bosbou en Visserye aanvanklik gedoen het. Hy het gereeld komiteevergaderings bygewoon en vrae beantwoord, homself ingegrawe in die komplekse kwessies van sy portefeulje. Buite die Parlement was hy gereeld in kontak met die boere, vissersgemeenskappe en ander belanghebbendes ten opsigte van sy portefeulje.


Minister Zokwana het met hierdie benadering van hom daarin geslaag om vertroue te begin herstel en het met sy benadering groot verwagtinge geskep oor sy termyn as Minister. Dit lyk egter nou asof die Minister in die gat van belangeloosheid getrap het. Die agb Minister was wie weet hoe lanklaas in ’n komiteevergadering om vrae te beantwoord en tot verantwoording geroep te word. Hy en sy adjunk het nie eens die moeite gedoen om die voorlegging van sy departement se jaarverslae, insluitende die ouditverslag, by te woon nie, en het volgens die Ouditeur-Generaal nie eens die kwartaalverslae ontvang nie. U kan sien dat hy vandag ook nie hier is nie.


Ek noem ’n paar. ’n Totaal van 99,1% van die begroting is bestee, maar net 67% van die teikens is behaal. Die vakatures het van 9,8% tot 13% toegeneem. Bosbou onderpresteer en het 80% van hul teikens gehaal terwyl bykans 100% van die begroting spandeer is. Net 50% van die teikens vir hulp aan kleinskaalse boere is behaal, maar 98% van die begroting is bestee. Net twee van die departement se entiteite het skoon ouditverslae gekry, die res ongekwalifiseerd met bevindinge.


Nieteenstaande sekere bestedingsvrotkolle vereenselwig die DA hom met die meeste van die aanbevelings in die verslag en ondersteun dit. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)


[Ms Z JONGBLOED: Chairperson, the saying goes that new brooms sweep clean, and that is exactly what the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries did at first. He regularly attended committee meetings and answered questions, involved himself in the complex issues of his portfolio. Outside of Parliament he was in regular contact with the farmers, fishing community and other stakeholders with regard to his portfolio.


With this approach, Minister Zokwana succeeded in starting to restore trust and created big expectations about his term as Minister. However, it now seems as if the Minister has fallen into the hole of apathy. Who knows when last the hon Minister attended a committee meeting to answer questions and to be held accountable. He and his deputy did not even bother to attend the submission of his department’s annual reports, including the audit report, and according to the Auditor General, did not even receive the quarterly reports. You can see that he is not here today either.


I will name a few. A total of 99,1% of the budget has been spent, but only 67% of the targets have been achieved. Vacancies have increased from 9,8% to 13%. Forestry is underperforming and has achieved 80% of its targets, whilst almost 100% of the budget has been spent. Only 50% of the targets with regard to aid to small-scale farmers have been achieved, but 98% of the budget has been spent. Only two of the department’s entities received clean audit reports, the rest unqualified with findings.


Despite certain rotten areas with regard to spending, the DA identifies with most of the recommendations in the report, and supports it. Thank you.]


Chief R N CEBEKHULU: Chair, the IFP supports the report but remains concerned over the following, as contained in the Auditor-General of South Africa’s findings.


The high rate of vacancies in the department needs to be attended to. The department should be staffed so as to further the vision and the mission of the department. This department has also been chopping and changing its directors-general. Not one has ever served and finished his or her term.


It has struggled to meet its programme requirement levels in a convincing manner. The required levels of performance are unclear. As a national department, it works hand in glove with provinces, leading to reliable reporting that the provinces should provide. In so doing, the national department would be in a position to capture the development taking place in the whole country.

Other departments also seem to have challenges with entities every year failing to submit financial reports on time. To mention just a few, the Agricultural Research Council and the National Agricultural Marketing Council did not place a request for deviation prior to carrying the requirement. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and Agricultural Research Council have also been receiving unqualified audits with findings for the financial years from 2010 to 2015.


The biggest challenge and concern are around the fact that the department and its marine living resources entity are losing the war on abalone poaching. Poachers seem to be very well organised and far ahead the law enforcement agencies responsible for guarding our oceans.


The administration of agricultural colleges under the department was once a resounding success but is, unfortunately, no more. A process of transferring to the Department of Higher Education ... thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson and members, here is our dictum. The increased vacancy rates of this department at the senior management level present a threat to its ability to achieve its mandate. It is prudent that this matter be addressed and resolved within the current financial year.


The fact that the department falls short of spending 25% of what it had planned and budgeted for each quarter is an indictment and is certainly related to the vacancy level that has increased from 12% to 18%. The UDM supports the prioritisation of support to and development of small farmers to grow from primary to secondary and tertiary levels. In this regard, we encourage the department to invest more in ensuring that the people of South Africa, and in particular those in rural areas, are turned into real productive farmers, not only for sustenance but for commercial reasons as well.


In order to be successful, the department must move with speed in clarifying the roles between it and other departments, as well as redefining its relationship with its entities. South Africa looks up to this department for relief from the most unwelcome visitor – drought. Surely, working with Treasury, they should be able to mobilise sufficient resources to top up the internal viaments so that the department is better positioned to respond to this uninvited and unwelcome guest.


Lastly, the department must finalise the establishment of the farmers’ register and, in particular, the smaller farmer data bank. We do support this budget. This is a crucial department; it has to survive. It needs everybody’s support. Thank you.


Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, the NFP supports the budget but wants to say the following. Food security is crucial for any nation and for South Africa, which is a water scarce country in the grip of a protracted drought, food security is a matter of grave concern. However, we not only have to face the challenges of drought and limited arable land in South Africa in our quest for food security. We also have to contend with some of the inefficiencies of the department.


The NFP is dismayed by several of the Auditor-General’s findings, which are largely repeated findings from previous years. For instance, the department is being criticised for ineffective internal audit controls and risk management where key officials lack appropriate competencies and internal auditing is not operating effectively, deficiencies in internal controls, where effective steps are not taken to prevent irregular expenditure, and noncompliance with legislature such as the National Treasury Regulations and Public Finance Management Act, to name but a few. This is intolerable.

Having said that, the Fetsa Tlala programme should now be up and running considering that the target date for implementation of the ambitious project to procure one million hectares fallow land, particularly in the former homelands, was 2013, but it is not. Having said that, we support this report, for we believe that this is a very important report for the benefit of the welfare of our country. Thank you very much.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Chairperson, as this committee, we have a mandate to consider, amend and make laws that would impact on this department and its entities.


It cannot be forgotten that this department has to make it a priority that food is placed on the table for each and every person. It is therefore responsible for what is referred to as food security. Medical doctors know very well that one has to eat before or after taking medication.


The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries contributes a lot to economic growth and development. It is supposed to be a leading department in job creation. The agricultural value is one of the key job drivers, as identified by the New Growth Path. Therefore, by 2020, 500 000 jobs are expected to be created. In the rural areas, agriculture is the primary economic activity. Skilled and semi-skilled workers can also be involved in agricultural activities, thus contributing to the growth of our economy.


Outcome 4, which is job creation, and Outcome 7, which is food security, are key to poverty alleviation. In fact, using the recent buzz words, I would say “poverty must fall”. Co-operation between the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Social Development, which resulted from Cabinet’s approval of the National Policy on Food Security and Nutrition, should never be allowed to fall. The Fetsa Tlala food production initiative that aims to distribute one million hectares of fallow land is very important. Thank you. We support this report.


Ms M R SEMENYA: Chairperson, the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries considered the financial and service delivery performance of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and its entities for the 2014 financial year, including the first quarter of the 2015-16 financial year, in line with the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act. We want to commend the department and its entities for its continued unqualified audit opinion, although, in some instances there are matters of emphasis. We have two entities that got clean audits and, on some of the matters of emphasis, as a committee, we have called the department to account and give us an action plan to respond to the issues raised by the Auditor-General.


The department promptly came to present that action plan. Our role, as a committee, will be to monitor that action plan to make sure that they get a clean audit in the next financial year. The department successfully has come up with a plan that identifies aspects it will embark on to make sure that this sector contributes towards job creation and economic growth.


We want to congratulate the department for coming up with a programme – that had not been there – where our veterinarians will be deployed in the rural areas. For the first time, our farmers in the small communities will receive assistance from the veterinarians and have their animals medicated properly. That is an achievement. The ANC supports the report.


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Prof B BOZZOLI: Chair ... [Interjections.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!


Prof B BOZZOLI: I’m glad to see how much the ANC cares about higher education. [Interjections.]


All that the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, process does is measure technical performance against objectives. What it doesn’t measure is effectiveness. So, we can have a satisfactory BRR Report in an area of government that is in freefall. It is like the executives in Enron who all got fantastic executive bonuses because they met their targets - at the same time as the company collapsed and triggered the worldwide financial crisis.

Here, we have a department that has done reasonably well, given its limited resources. Yes, there are several objectives not attained. Yes, there are issues that need attention. Of the 102 entities managed by the department, more than 12 are in a weak position. However, the cliché of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic does come to mind because, in the larger sense, the system of higher education is unsustainable and in the process of collapsing.


Multibillions short of the budget it needs, the department is like an abused woman. It continues to take a beating, year after year, but is too terrified to stand up for itself. Its Minister is so woven into the vampire world of Zumanomics that it took a major student uprising for him to bring himself to admit yesterday that the shortfall in his budget is around R30 billion per year, rising at 10% annually. Instead of demanding more and refusing unfunded mandates, he has cannibalised the skills budget to pay for departmental expenses and vanity projects.


Higher education deserves better. Students deserve better. The DA has committed itself to finding practical short- and long-term solutions to the problem and we hope the Minister will continue to follow our lead. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr M S MBATHA: House Chair, I would like to dedicate this response to the Fees Must Fall movement, which has awoken the generation of 2015 to rise on the tyrannical tendencies of the ANC-led government.


The EFF would like to reject the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training. [Interjections.] These are the issues. The budget and the department are underfunded. The department has 25 universities, 50 Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges and more than 100 entities under it. The reason there is no money to further fund the post-school education system in South Africa is that South Africa is financing its higher education at 0,72% of the GDP.


In order for us to rise to meet at least the minimum requirement of higher education, we should be financing higher education at 2% of the GDP. The majority of the African countries who are serious about their citizens are actually financing education and higher education at 0,78% of GDP. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, countries and the oil-producing countries are financing their higher education at 1,21% of their GDPs.


We need political commitment to free, quality higher education, not for some, but for all. The generation of 2015 should never have been at the receiving end of stun grenades and teargas here. It should have received political commitment. We call on our citizens to reject the ANC in the forthcoming elections in 2016. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Can we give the hon member at the podium an opportunity to speak?


Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chair, the IFP supports this report. This is in light of the following reasons. This review and recommendation report comes at a defining period.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Msimang, please take your seat. Could the Table staff please reverse the minutes of the hon Msimang? Hon members, we can’t even hear. Please. [Interjections.] Start afresh, hon Msimang.


Prof C T MSIMANG: Thank you, hon Chair. The IFP supports this report for the following reasons. This review and recommendation report comes at a defining period in the history of our country. The department should therefore be placed on notice that it will be under above-average scrutiny for the foreseeable future as it attempts to resolve the tertiary fees funding crisis that is now before it.


This department will be called upon to do more with less. It is therefore imperative that, internally, it is run as efficiently and effectively as possible. This process begins with the correct vetting of qualifications and security process requirements of all new staffing appointments. Such internal controls are of foundational necessity to a well-run department.


Externally, the continuing unrest at institutions of higher learning is most worrisome. The department must ensure that it provides all the support necessary to both our university administrations and students so as to ensure that universities return to full operational status and that our higher learning in South Africa continues at the formidable standards it currently holds.


Our students’ grievances have not as yet been completely addressed and resolution is still required in respect of many of them. This is a time bomb, and we urge the department to engage all aspects of these grievances so as to mitigate possible future protest action and the resultant shut-down of universities. I thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, the NFP welcomes and supports this report. Education is the main vehicle and tool that will assist our country and our people to achieve full liberation. The NFP calls on the government to vigorously pursue the idea of free basic education and free higher education and training.


The Department of Higher Education has precipitated the most singular and critical protest action ever witnessed in the history of our fledgling democracy. In addition, it has brought into sharp focus the lack of progress made to open the doors of learning for all, as was promised 21 years ago.

The crisis surrounding student funding, which has been simmering for years, is largely attributed to the inability of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, to adequately provide for the growing need for higher and further education. The African child in South Africa, after being denied access for so long, is thirsty for education, thirsty for free, quality education. The department and NSFAS failed to deliver, and our children are still caught in a waterless academic desert, where their thirst rages unabated.


Yes, we agree that more funding must be made available to assist deserving students. However, the department must be competent enough to ensure that our students do receive funding. At the end of the day, they need free education. They do not need to become indebted after they have completed their education. We don’t want them to be at the credit bureaus with their names blacklisted even after they have finished.


The NFP believes that South Africa needs a transparent and efficient funding model that will adequately address the aspirations of our students and young people, a model that is not driven by ideology or political expediency but by a genuine desire to create the opportunity for real and progressive empowerment of our young people. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, the mandate of this department is very clear. Education is an investment for the country. The department must come up with skills that are necessary for economic growth and social development. It has to serve the growing number of young adults, and the country needs to be in line with growing technology and global issues.


Free education is a good idea but it cannot be free for the rich. Only the poor should be financially assisted. As the economy grows, the others may then be considered.


When we talk about free education, we should not only refer to school fees. What about travelling expenses to the schools for those who are poor? What about accommodation and food for the poor in those institutions? Those are some of the issues that are involved.


This is a very complicated matter. We appreciate the filling of the critical posts like those of directors-general for university education and skills development. The issue of NSFAS should be thoroughly looked into.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I can see that you are leaving the House. Don’t leave it with such a noise. Do it decently and discreetly, please. [Interjections.] Continue, hon Ntshayisa.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: There is a lot taking place in NSFAS. The government and department, in particular, should know exactly what is happening. These funds should be used for the needy people. The universities must also come clean. Their budgets must be assessed and monitored all the time.


It is a dream of the AIC that one day, South Africa will reach the highest quality of education in the world. We want to be like Cuba, where education is free and of quality. We support the report. I thank you.


Ms Y N PHOSA: Chair, the ANC supports the BRR Report. The ANC and the ANC-led government care. At its 52nd and 53rd national conferences, the ANC resolved that steps be taken towards free higher education for the poor. We support the decision taken by the hon Minister Blade Nzimande to convert NSFAS loans into full bursaries on record-time graduation.


As per the Freedom Charter, the Constitution of the Republic, the NDP and the White Paper, post-school education and training should be made progressively available and accessible to all. In our interrogation of the department and the entities, we found that the department was on track and in alignment with these prescripts.


We commend the department for unqualified audit opinions for five consecutive years and for the exceeded targets in most of its critical performance areas. The Council for Higher Education, CHE, and the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations, QCTO, received clean audits, while NSFAS and the SA Qualifications Authority, Saqa, got unqualified opinions.


In our further scrutiny, it became crystal clear that the department has fiscal constraints. This point was also emphasised by the Auditor-General and the Financial and Fiscal Commission. If not well managed, the attainment of continuous growth requirements in terms of enrolment targets, infrastructure development and increased operations will be slowed down.


The 0% fee increase for 2016 will have ongoing financial implications but we are assured that the department, working with all stakeholders, will find funds to cater for this in the short term, while work continues to find medium- and long-term funding solutions for this sector. [Time expired.]


Division demanded.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, on a point of order: I thought that, in terms of the Rules, at least four members should be present in a political party for it to be able to call for a division. I am now looking at the opposition benches, and I have poor vision so you will have to assist me with your better vision, but I can’t see members of the opposition on the opposition benches. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think the cameras should focus on the opposition benches.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: We support the division. The division. We support it.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hayi man, [no, man] hon Ndlozi, what is wrong with you? [Interjections.] Hon Masutha, the number of four, which is allowed to call a division, is in the House. Hon members ...




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I understand, hon Masutha.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Can you explain to me which party those four members belong to?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It’s the DA who called for the division, and the members of the DA are here.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There are five. Thank you.








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon members ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, it’s little wonder our justice system is such a disgrace in this country, because if that’s how the Minister of Justice ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, no, no, no. Hon member, no, no! [Interjections.] Hon member, you can’t do that.


Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, House Chair: I think what the hon Steenhuisen is doing is very insensitive and totally uncalled for. [Interjections.] He is definitely aware that the hon Masutha is partially blind. Now, to come and make a joke out of his disability is uncalled for. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member. Your point has been made. [Interjections.] Hon members ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, sorry, I am not going to allow that to happen. [Interjections.]




The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It’s not going to happen. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! Oh no! [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m not going to allow that to happen. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I was referring to the hon Masutha’s ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you please sit?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... clear ignorance of the Rules, to say that if that’s the Minister of Justice, I’m not surprised our country’s in the trouble it is. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, please!


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, I think the Chief Whip of the Opposition is out of order. He shouldn’t bring his frustrations into this House. You called for a division. Let us vote for that. Don’t waste our time with your nonsense! [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Deputy Chief Whip ... Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.]


The House divided.


AYES - 130: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Dlakude, D E; Dlomo, B J; Dunjwa, M L; Esterhuizen, J A; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gina, N; Goqwana, M B; Hanekom, D A; Jafta, S M; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, M D; Kekana, E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Kwankwa, N L S; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Madella, A F; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Martins, B A D; Masehela, E K M; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masutha, T M; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, N; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Ralegoma, S M; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Xego-Sovita, S T; Yengeni, L E.


NOES - 6: Bozzoli, B; Lotriet, A; Mazzone, N W A; Ndlozi, M Q; Steenhuisen, J H; Waters, M.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chair: May it be recorded for the annals of the history of this country that the Official Opposition opposed the right to higher education of the people of this country by only having five people in this House. [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member ...


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: ... and the second largest opposition party had only one member ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, no. That is not a point of order, hon member.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: ... which means they do not support the rights of South Africans to higher education ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please! Hon Minister Masutha, that is not a point of order.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: We don’t support the commodification of education.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Your government sells education to our people! [Interjections.] We cannot be pawns of anybody who sells education to South Africans. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: We reject it and there is nothing you can do about it. [Interjections.] We reject it with the contempt it deserves!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Not even your shortest Minister is here to defend it. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The centre is not holding in the ANC. You can’t hold your Ministers. Not all of them are here. You have fallen! You are dead! [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: Where is the girl? Where is the girl? [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The centre, gone! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members! That wasn’t a point of order. [Interjections.] Hon Steenhuisen?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I see the Minister has run away, as usual, just like the Minister of Higher Education.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, alright. You are not raising a point of order.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, Chair, hold on. I am sorry. You allowed the Minister to make a statement.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. You are talking about the Minister. You are not talking to me. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You didn’t stop the hon Masutha!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I recognise you.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You didn’t stop the hon Masutha!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue. [Interjections.] Hayi. Hayi. [No. No.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Let it be recorded for the annals of history that when the students came to Parliament to be listened to, you shot them with teargas and rubber bullets, and chased them away. Let that be recorded! [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order! Order! [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The centre isn’t holding. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order! The House has been adjourned. [Interjections.] Order!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The Mace is still here! [Interjections.]


The House adjourned at 19:10.







National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.       Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159


  1. Higher Education Amendment Bill, 2015, submitted by the Minister of Higher Education and Training.


          Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.





National Assembly


  1. The Speaker


  1. Petition from residents of Birch Acres, Kempton Park, calling for increased resources to be provided to the Norkem Park Police Station in order to ensure effective and visible policing, submitted in terms of Rule 312 (Mr M Waters MP).


  1. Petition from residents of Soweto (Orlando, Diepkloof, Meadowlands, Dube and Mzimhlope), calling for assistance to determine the delay in providing state-subsidised housing in the areas in question and to obtain an update from the Department of Human Settlements on progress with applications made in 1996-97, submitted in terms of Rule 312 (Mr T W Mhlongo MP).




National Assembly


Please see pages 5382-5425 of the ATCs.


Please see pages 5425-5428 of the ATCs.



No related


No related documents