Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 28 Oct 2015
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
WEDNESDAY, 28 OCTOBER 2015
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
MINISTERS:
Response from African Union to migration of thousands of African persons
476. Mr L K B Mpumlwana (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:
What (a) has been the response from the African Union (AU) to the migration of thousands of African persons from the continent to Europe and (b) does the AU envisage can be done to stem such migration? NO4460E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon Speaker, the African Union at its recently held 25th Ordinary Assembly of Heads of State and Government, issued a declaration on migration expression serious concerns about migration of thousands of African people to Europe, and in the process getting killed in the Mediterranean Sea.
They decided to combat human trafficking and smuggling of migrant through the implementation of provision of the UN Convention. They also requested the African Union Commission to arrange an executive council retreat to have in-depth discussions on migration and to work towards the development of a common position for Africa before the Malta conference on migration with the European Union that is due to take place in November 2015. The commission is expected to report on the implementation of the declaration at the next African Union Assembly in January 2016. Thank you very much.
Mr L K B MPUMLWANA: Speaker, thank you hon Deputy Minister for the informative reply. It is highly appreciated. May the hon Deputy Minister further share the information on the content of the declaration on migration with particular reference to the actions that the Assembly of the heads of states has committed to undertake.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Madam Speaker, the content, really, is a commitment to speed up the implementation of the continentwide visa-free regimes including issuance of visas at ports of entry for Africans based on the principle of reciprocity. And also is to expedite the operationalisation of the African passport that would, as a start, facilitate free movement of persons. But more importantly, is to strengthen the efforts to combat human trafficking and smuggling of migrants through the implementation of the provision of the UN Convention.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Through you, Madam Speaker, Deputy Minister, South Africa has largely been silent on this crisis. I was listening to you now talking about a retreat. Retreat at this stage is ridiculous. There is a humanitarian crisis going on. The world’s largest refugee camp in Dadaab is about to close. It can only capacitate 90 000 refugees, and at the moment it is almost half a million.
What is your knowledge, Deputy Minister, of the African Union’s response to the ongoing refugee crisis on its own continent in Burundi, Kenya, Libya, Central African Republic and South Sudan? What has it been apart from the ridiculous answer that they are now going on a retreat?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Madam Speaker, whatever is happening in different countries, I assume that it is being dealt with. In these different countries there are different regional structures. If there is a crisis in the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region, we are preoccupied with that crisis so that the structures that are dealing with those matters could report to the African Union when they meet. When the African Union met they were dealing with broad issues. This is the issue that must be reported in January. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, Deputy Minister, the outmigration of Africans seeking greener pastures in Europe and other places is the result of the continent not being in control of its own wealth and using this to benefit the people despite Africa being the richest continent on earth.
What is the country doing to promote African ownership of African wealth, strong trade amongst African countries and local beneficiation of African minerals in African soils to ensure that African people benefit?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Madam Speaker, this is exactly what the declaration that was agreed to in the African Union, AU, talks about. It talks about stabilising, first, Libya, and also to create a visa-free area, intratrade process and creating peace in the continent so that its people do not have to go and look for greener pastures whereas they have them in their countries. Thank you very much.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, Dr Ron Daniels wrote an article in which he expresses his concern that, and I quote:
Far too many heads of state in Africa were behaving as if the only goal of the black liberation movement was to replace white faces with black faces.
He further explain that he was responding to what seem to be an emerging pattern of self-serving, self-aggrandising, corrupt and self-perpetuating leaders who were more interested in power and personal fortunes than the interests of the masses of the people.
Many migrants who left for Europe claim that they have ran away from oppressive regimes that repress, descend and brutally crash all forms of opposition. They claim that they see an opportunity to realise their fullest potential where democratic principles are espoused and freedom of expression is tolerated more than they experience in their homelands.
I want to know, what can the African Union do to change this perception, if it is a perception? Also, what can they do to ensure that these concerns raised by these migrants in Africa are addressed which, in consequence, will ensure that such migration will be stemmed? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Madam Speaker, it is clear that there is so much that has been done by the AU in the continent. Looking back at the challenges and the takeovers by the military, I’m sure if we are sincere we can see tat these things have drastically reduced because there is a discussion of democratic processes of electing presidents. They are not discussions, but they are agreements where regions are responsible for different countries. If there is a problem in a particular country everybody goes there and try to solve that problem.
Well, we may still have few areas, if any, but really, I think it is a perception in most cases that in the AU people go because they are looking for more democratic processes. Yes, they might be looking for greener pastures because there is still poverty in their areas. Even people from South Africa can go and look for greener pastures because we are still dealing with the legacy of apartheid. There is poverty and they may go to areas where they know that they can use their skills.
Outcomes from recent discussions on restructuring of UN Security Council
477. Ms T E Kenye (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:
What were the outcomes from recent discussions at the United Nations on the restructuring of the Security Council? NO4461E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Madam Speaker, the debate on the reform of the United Nations Security Council has been going on for more than 20 years with no substantive progress. And South Africa has been actively engaged in the process since 1994. Our argument is that since 1945 when the UN was formed, the world has changed. The Security Council composition does not reflect the geopolitical realities of today and therefore we call for the expansion of Security Council with at least two new permanent seats to be assigned to Africa. In September 2015, under the leadership of an African President of the United Nations General Assembly, Mr Sam Kutesa the foreign Minister of Uganda, the General Assembly finally adopted a document that will henceforth serve as a base for the intergovernmental negotiations. This is a major breakthrough given that in more than 20 years of negotiations there has never been a negotiation text. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ms T E KENYE: Hon Speaker, to the Deputy Minister, given your response, South Africa has been pursuing the struggle for the restructuring of the United Nations Security for decades; can you enlighten this House on some of the specific steps that South Africa has taken over the years in pursuit of this struggle as well as its position on this matter. I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Hon Speaker, the debate on the reform of the United Nations Security Council has been, as I said, ongoing for the last 20 years. And since then our argument was that we want to be included because we are not colonies anymore. And I think that we have achieved that, as I said, for the first time because South Africa has been pushing this issue. We have succeeded to negotiate a date on which we are to get a report. Thank you very much.
Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, to the Deputy Minister, what guarantee does Africa have that if South Africa happen to secure a permanent seat in the Security Council it will serve the interest of Africa especially in view of the aftermath of the ANC’s NGC where you resolved that you want to pull out of the International Criminal Court, ICC. What role are you going to play as a country to make sure that we are secured?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Well I think as a continent, as AU, we are saying we want at least two seats in the Security Council. Definitely the guarantee is that those seats will not be South African seats. Yes, we might be appointed as country, but they will be part of the Ezulwini Consensus negotiations and we will be representing the African Union in the Security Council. That is the guarantee. Thank you.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Deputy Minister, thank you so much for your reply, though it is not much of an answer. We agree that we need to address this historical injustice and that we need to do something about it. Now, the Libyan Deputy President has pleaded for support from African Arab countries; the President of Sierra Leon is a champion. But you are not clear with regard to South Africa’s position. Are you going to engage with your partners in China who are permanent in the Security Council, and with Russia, given that we have such good relationship with them? Are you going to engage with then to lobby for this position so that we can uphold the commitment to human rights and the rule of law?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: I think, Madam Speaker, lobbying means that when you are in such fora you should make relationships, lobby everybody but even more importantly lobby your friends and those with whom you have bilaterals. When we go around and have bilaterals with different countries, some of the things that we talk about are the areas in which we need to have a common agreement in platforms like UN. So, the answer is, yes. We will lobby our friends, however, not lobby them only for South Africa, but for the whole continent. We will lobby those with human rights culture that we also have by the way. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Speaker, arising from the Deputy Minister’s response I would like to know whether Africa is speaking with one voice on the matter of restructuring the UN in general and in particular the addition of two more seats which should be allocated to Africa.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Madam Speaker, to the hon member, yes we are speaking with one voice. I said earlier we have an agreement, that is, Ezulwini Consensus. This agreement takes into account that we have countries that are small, those that are big and those that are strong finically. But if we want to work as a collective, you can’t just go and lobby for yourself and completely ignore the whole continent within which you are working. So, yes, the transformation we are talking about and the number of seats for AU is something that is shared by all the members. Thank you very much.
Intensions regarding advice to President Zuma to repay a reasonable portion of funds towards upgrades at his private residence in Nkandla
503. Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services:
Whether he will advise the President, Mr Jacob G Zuma, to pay back a reasonable portion of funds towards upgrades at his private residence in Nkandla in light of the recent Supreme Court of Appeal judgment regarding the remedial action ordered by the Public Protector, Adv Thuli Mandonsela; if not, why not; if so, (a) when and (b) what are the further relevant details in this regard? NO4491E
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Speaker, the hon member should be aware that the matter at hand is currently the subject of a Constitutional Court challenge, which is due to be heard in February next year. In terms of Rule 67 of the Rules of the National Assembly, the sub judice Rule, we may not reflect on matters that are pending decision of the courts. It would be inappropriate for me to reflect on a matter that is specifically the subject of such inquiry.
I would also like to remind the hon member that this matter was also before this House and it was the subject of two ad hoc committee inquiries and reports that were tabled and adopted by this House, and that the hon member’s party was an active participant in that parliamentary process.
As you are aware, Rule 64, although it relates to matters of the same session - and this matter was dealt with in a previous session - I would nonetheless recommend to the hon members, if they so wish, to call upon this House to reflect on its decision in this regard and that they do so by way of moving an amendment or rescission of the decision of the House in this regard. I thank you.
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the advice, Mr Minister. I will certainly give it some thought. I would like to point out to you, however, that the process that took place in this House is obviously now, in light of this judgment, clearly flawed and that the minority has been vindicated. However, that being the case and it being entirely predictable that you would take refuge in the sub judice rule, does this mean that in the future you intend abiding by the rulings of court proceedings affecting your department going forward?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Speaker, as a matter of principle our commitment as government generally and in particular as this Ministry is to uphold the orders and decisions of courts and actually comply therewith. I just want to indicate to the hon member that as my answer indicates, the matter has not yet been ruled upon by a court. It is the subject of a court challenge that is still pending, and therefore there is no compliance that is due in this regard.
Further, I want to remind the hon member again, as indicated in my response, that this is a matter this House has duly deliberated and decided upon. If the member wishes that this House revisit its own decision in this regard, she must do so according to the applicable Rules of this House. I thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Speaker, I hear that the hon Minister is not inclined to comment on matters that are still pending in court. But what I am going to ask is common knowledge. It is common course in our law that if somebody has been unduly enriched, that somebody must pay for the benefits unduly received. However, our President often argues, with regard to this case, that he did not ask for the benefits – that is, the additions which are nonsecurity upgrades to his homestead. Would you agree that his argument is not a valid defence in law, and, if you agree, would you advise him accordingly?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I would once again advise the hon member that if he or his party wishes to argue that point in law, the appropriate forum to argue it is in a court of law. And given the fact that there is a matter pending before the courts, he would be well advised to consider, if he hasn’t done so, applying to that court to be joined in the proceedings so that he can aptly articulate his legal argument, as he has just done. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Speaker. Thank you, Minister. Minister, on a more general principle approach: if one considers the Supreme Court of Appeal, SCA, that has now given clarity on the binding nature of the remedial findings of the Public Protector, and given what the Public Protector has indicated in that there are a number of state departments that at that stage and prior to the SCA decision were not complying with the findings of the Public Protector because of the uncertainty brought about by the earlier decision in the Western Cape, would you not agree at this stage that it is unambiguous and that there is no question that every government department must comply with the remedial actions, and, where they do not, action should be taken against those government departments? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Speaker, once again I would like to indicate to the hon member that indeed the SCA made a certain decision relating to the status of the decisions of the Public Protector, which goes against a clear position that was adopted by the court a quo and therefore it speaks for itself in that the courts themselves are not on the same page in this matter. That’s why an appeal is brought against the decision of the SCA to the Constitutional Court, which is the final arbiter in clarifying the legal position in this regard. I plead with the hon member to exercise just a little bit of patience; it’s only February next year and then the matter can be put to rest. Thank you.
Mr W HORN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Minister, while you are giving advice, it would be prudent to also remind yourself that repeating a moot point doesn’t assist you. The question, however, is, hon Minister: Is it your stance that while in principle you will obey the rulings of our courts, your interpretations of the law are believed by you and your department to be superior to that of our courts and that you will keep on ignoring these, even though the SCA found you to be in the wrong?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: May I also remind the hon member that what was before the Supreme Court of Appeal was not the matter that is the subject of this question. What was before the SCA related to a different matter relating to the SABC? I want to indicate that in this regard there is no decision of any court, higher or lower. [Interjections.] There is no disregard of a court order or a court decision in this regard. Be patient; February is around the corner. Go and enjoy Christmas, and we look forward to seeing you in the New Year. Thank you very much.
Particulars regarding dismissal of chief finance officer of department
512. Mr N P Khoza (EFF) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
(1) With reference to her reply to question 2888 on 14 October 2015, what were the reasons that the chief financial officer of her department was subjected to a disciplinary hearing which led to his dismissal;
(2) whether the specified person was placed on suspension with full pay prior to his dismissal; if so, (a) what total amount did he get paid while on suspension and (b) for how many months did he get paid while on suspension? NO4503E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Khoza for the question. The matter of the CFO of the Department of Military Veterans, the CFO was charged and found guilty by the chairperson of the disciplinary hearing on the following grounds: firstly, which is charge one, gross dishonesty in that he instructed an employee to effect payment of his resettlement amount of R54 533 on the Basic Accounting System, Bas system, instead of the Persal system, thereby concealing this payment from the IRP 5 for the purpose of tax recalculations.
Charge two was failure to ensure that a tax directive was obtained from Sars prior to the payment of his resettlement amount, which resulted in this payment not accumulating on the IRP 5, thereby conducting him in a manner that amounted to tax evasion.
The third charge was gross dereliction of duties as CFO by failure to exercise due care and regard in the performance of his duties, in that he failed to provide a proper account of the petty cash to tune of R30 000 being an amount which he withdrew from the department’s account.
In handing down the sanction of dismissal, the chairperson of the hearing held that there is prima-facie evidence that the trust relationship between the employer and the employee is broken. And the employee had shown no remorse and that he is insolent and incompatible to continue working in the department.
Number 2: Yes, the employee was placed on suspension with full-pay for eight months to the tune of R550 983.
Mr N P KHOZA: Madam Speaker, thank you, Minister for the answer to my question. Minister, we are well aware that the answers you are giving today are not correct. As much as the suspension, the reason it took so long is because he was busy challenging the manner in which he was suspended because of the issues that were going on inside the department.
Nonetheless, these are the answers that you are giving us. But you know very well that it is not the truth. You know that there is more than what you are giving us.
What I am going to ask you now is: How common are these occurrences in the department; and what is being done to address these problems?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, I will address myself to this specific case which you have raised. You are saying that the information I am giving you is not accurate. Actually, it is accurate. If I may say this, by the time this employee was suspended he, in fact, was AWOL for months from work. Now, it’s a matter that I did not want to raise here. He was AWOL for about four months without having signed a leave form, nothing. By the time, a decision was taken to suspend him. The man had not been to work for those months.
Now, if you are asking me how common these cases are, maybe they are common, probably in all government departments across, I don’t know. As for now, I am referring myself to the matter of the CFO of the Department of Military Veterans. Thank you.
Awumamelanga nokumamela uncokola nomnye umntu uza kuphinda ubuze ... [You are not even listening instead you are busy talking to someone else and you will then ask questions again ...]
Mr N P KHOZA: Chair, on a point of order: I don’t think the manner in which the Minister is addressing me is proper.
The SPEAKER: No, that is not a point of order.
Mr N P KHOZA: No, on a serious note, I don’t think the manner in which she is addressing me is proper. She is lying. We know very well ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, it might be on a serious note, but it is not a point of order.
Mr N P KHOZA: ... that the CFO, because of the supply chain department, the manner in which things were being done. You are not telling the truth, but now ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr N P KHOZA: You must tell the truth.
The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?
Dr H CHEWANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The practice that you have given us is that when hon members speak in Parliament, they address the Chair. We don’t address each other here. That is...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that might be correct, but it is not a point of order. Could you just take your seat?
Dr H CHEWANE: No, but it is...
The SPEAKER: Hon Chewane, take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: Chair, if you allow that we address each other like this ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Please, take your seat!
Dr H CHEWANE: You are going to make it difficult
Ms H O MAXON: On a point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon, please I haven’t recognised you. I don’t know why you are on your feet.
Ms H O MAXON: Please, recognise me, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: For what?
Ms H O MAXON: I just want to address you Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No!
Ms H O MAXON: But, Speaker, this is very wrong of you.
The SPEAKER: You don’t just get up and say I want to address you.
Ms H O MAXON: I am asking you. I said order and then you said why am I on my feet then I explained that I want to address you.
The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?
Ms H O MAXON: But, Speaker, I think you must treat us fairly. Hon Chewane is raising a point which says that here we don’t speak to each other but we speak through the Chair. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon, you might be telling the truth but you can’t make me endorse that it is supposed to be a point of order when it is not. Can you please take your seat!
Ms H O MAXON: But chair what you are doing is unfair. You are allowing the Minister to say as much of what ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Please, take your seat.
Mr S ESAU: Thank you, hon Speaker. I want to make a follow-up question to the hon Minister, noting firstly that the CFO was suspended and finally dismissed due to financial irregularities, including the procurement ones. The Director-General and the Deputy Director-General was suspended and reinstated with final warnings because of these irregularities.
Thirdly, the Minister did not appraise the portfolio committee their forensic investigations, findings and recommendations; given that exsa raise concerns about the leadership and its oversight role and insufficient evidence of appropriate **** action against the officials responsible for irregular, fruitful and waste expenditure. This the issue of the consequence management, lack of internal audit and controls which is also noted in the MPAD.
Then there is also the disclaimer of audit opinion on our financial 2013-14, and the qualified audit for 2014-15. Consequently there was a late submission of the annual reports NQPRs for financial year 2014-15. The question I therefore put to the hon Minister is how many officials were actually implicated in irregular financial management; and what were the consequences, including criminal charges against these individuals and why were they treated differently?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, hon Esau, hon member you are correct and you have a lot of information about what happened. You are correct that initially this man was the whistleblower. However, when the investigation began - and I was not conducting the investigation – when he was called upon to testify about some of the issues which he had raised with the auditors, the man went on AWOL okay.
Now, the two people whom he had been implicated whom I had suspended for the purposes of conducting the investigation, indeed they were investigated and questioned about everything and precisely because the man had gone on AWOL and there was no one therefore to provide evidence which could tie them down or even to lead to whatever form of sanction. There was no such evidence and indeed thereafter the case collapsed and they were taken back to work.
So, I am just saying that you are correct on the facts that you have made. He was a whistleblower but when it was time for him to come forward to provide the information so that it could be used against those who were being investigated he was then not available to do so and instead he chose to go AWOL. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Chairperson, arising out of the Minister’s reply, I would like to know if there has been any wider investigation conducted subsequent to these particular cases to ensure that no similar misdemeanors happens and gone undetected.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: There hasn’t been any wider investigation, but what I can say is that now that we have identified some of the matters which were raised earlier on by the hon Esau, we decided to bring in a turnaround team into the department which team has various works streams amongst others is the cleaning up of the financials of the department; cleaning up of the database, developing policy relevant to some of the gaps that have been identified in the legislation. So, we have various work streams which are doing different things within the department but working together with the official in the department.
I am responding in this manner because of the things that have been raised by hon Esau because indeed what led us to put together that team was because of some of the matters which have just been raised by the hon member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Could you please assist us with the mike for hon Gamende.
Mr D D GAMEDE: House Chair, hon Minister I appreciate your response, what has been the track record of the department in the past two financial years in dealing with corruption, using various anticorruption legal instruments at its disposal?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Well, whenever we had received information relevant to a particular mismanagement of finances, we have conducted investigation. Obviously, you rely on people who provide you with information and evidence in order for you to secure whatever form of sanction or conviction. And I should say that the hon member wanted to know whether there has been any cases of criminal charges that have been take to courts for purposes of prosecutions. No. We have not had that kind of cases within that department but when there had been instances of irregularities and when we have been informed about those we have taken actions by way of investigating those matters. Thank you.
Progress with regard to Transformation Task Team on the South African Police Service
478. Ms M A Molebatsi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether there is any progress with the commencement of the work of the Transformation Task Team on the South African Police Service that he announced; if so, what are the further relevant details? NO4462E
MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, indeed we are making progress towards the activation of the Transformation Task Team in the SA Police Service. We have largely utilised the months of September and October for consultations, particularly with local experts as well as some of our international partners to also assist us with the work that we will be undertaking. So, in a period of about two weeks from now, we will be making public announcement insofar as the actual constitution of the Transformation Task Team and all other relevant details that are associated with. Thank you very much Chair.
Mr J S MAAKE: Madam Chairperson, I’m standing on behalf of hon Molebatsi. Hon Minister, the programme of the transformation of the SA Police Service, the SAPS, will require a number of structural changes within the SAPS. Of these, will be the model of the leadership structure; technology; communications and the structure of Provincial Commissioners amongst others. How will these structural changes enhance achieving the objectives of professional policing in the country? Thank you, Chair.
MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, in every change management programme it becomes imperative to look at three particular components of such an approach. It is the question of your people and culture. Of course, looking at systems, that would have to enable such an institution to be able to move forward. These are the components that we are looking at and we would also need to be dictated to by a standing principle when it come issues of change management and that is the whole question of the extent to which we are able to deliver. It is then largely informed by the manner in which you are structured. It is the approach that we are following. Thank you, Chair.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, you have shown commendable speed and seriousness in responding to the Farlam Commission report by the plan for this Transformation Task Team as you have outlined. But speaking of commissions, we are yet to see the same approach with regard to the Khayelitsha Commission of Inquiry report. You hosted an imbizo in Khayelitsha two weeks ago but you seem no closer to a concrete commitment from you to implement all recommendations of the Khayelitsha Commission report. As part of leading a turnaround in the SAPS to ensure a more rational allocation of resources both financial and human, when will the Minister act on the specific recommendation for him to request the National Commissioner of Police to appoint a task team to investigate the system of human resource allocation in the SAPS as a matter of urgency?
MINISTER OF POLICE: Let me just indicate that I think the intervention by hon Mbhele has got to be split into two. The one is the general point around the question of resource allocation within the SA Police Service, which in itself is a different matter all together. But away from that is the question of what is commonly referred to as the Khayelitsha Commission. The meeting we held with the community of Khayelitsha was in the first instance a report back meeting about the work that is been undertaken and it driven at that particular the work that essentially is driven by a team composed of the SA Police Service, led by Major General Johan Brand of the Khayelitsha police station as well as the relevant leadership levels there, together with community leaders in Khayelitsha.
So, there is an existing task team that is continuously looking into issues of improving policing for example, in Khayelitsha. Therefore, I wouldn’t understand the essence of your question about what it is that is been done because I think that matter has been widely reported in terms of the work that is undertaken at that level.
With regards to the general point of resource allocation, indeed it is a point that we ourselves in the SA Police Service have generally acknowledged that wherever you go, just like you, we also used the situation in Khayelitsha, whether you go to Mangaung, you will find that largely the complaints from members of the community are about the availability of policing resources. In the same way, if you move from Mangaung and go to eMahlabathini, for example, it is the same kind of complaint that you will find. This then tells you that what we effectively need to put an effort on, is a question of reviewing our resource allocation guide amongst other things so that we begin to look at how best we deal with question of services to different communities. Thanks Chair.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Minister, transformation is one of the reasons for the low morale amongst SAPS members and one of the many factors contributing to the high crime rate, corruption, etc. when you release the crime statistics to the portfolio committee, a recommendation or suggestion was made by the portfolio committee for a comprehensive brainstorming session including all relevant stakeholders to come together and deliberate on the serious challenges.
Hon Minister, you advised that you will consider this recommendation. Could you please advise if you still intend proceeding with this and when?
MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I think we have spoken at large around the issue of the challenges and of course, not narrowly in relation to the question of the crime statistics because we should remember that crime statistics are effectively a reflection of what our society is like. So, if you want to see the extent to which we are sick as the South African society, then we must delve into the actual details around the question of crime statistics and so on.
One of the critical features that we identified and planning towards and hoping that before end of year basically, we undertake this particular exercise is the question of prevalence of violence, the culture of violence generally amongst ourselves as South Africans. We do need to interact around this particular question and engage quite extensively. Associated with that is also the proliferation of firearms within our society because they become part of the activity of violent practice and conduct amongst the South African citizenry. We are working towards this specific recommendation that also arose out of the portfolio committee. As I said that we do hope that before the year ends, we are able to basically mobilise all other stakeholders to then begin to undertake an engagement around this question. Thank you.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Chairperson, once the word transformation is mentioned in whatever the government attempts to do, it tends to raise the public interest. Will the Minister make public the terms of reference so that the people do not have any misconceptions of what this Transformation Task Team seeks to achieve? Thank you.
MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson and hon Mncwango, we will certainly do so. You will remember that when we referred to the concept and the structure of the Transformation Task Team, it arises out of a matter of public interest; it arises out of the Farlam’s Commission of Inquiry. In a sense, we are then responding to the recommendations that are contained in the Judge Farlam’s report. In essence, really, when we look into the recommendations themselves, they actually do mean that the manner response has got to be this change management programme has got to be this transformation and so forth.
Indeed, when we formally constitute the actual teams around the issues of transformation, we will those announcements but also the terms of reference will be made public. Thank you.
Particulars regarding theft and use of police-issued firearms in criminal activities
507. Mr M A Mncwango (IFP) asked the Minister of Police:
(a) What progress has been made by his department in preventing the escalation of the theft and use of police issued firearms in criminal activities in the country and (b) how many (i) firearms that are currently issued to the police have been found to have been used to commit crimes as at the latest specified date for which information is available and (ii) police officers have been involved in the commission of such crimes? NO4497E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, in 2010, the firearm losses figure stood at about 3 814, but we have seen a reduction between 2010 and the current period. We are now down to 743 firearm losses, which accounts for about 81%.
Now, this can be attributed to the mere fact that we had to put control measures in place, amongst which is the question of bi-annual and annual inspections; stocktaking and certification of firearms; setting maximum stock levels depending on policing requirements, stations and units; the issuing of safes for the SA Police Service, SAPS, personnel firearms; the issuing of pistol retention cords to prevent snatching and loss during active duty; and the issuing of dot-pinned and Integrated Ballistics Identification System, IBIS-tested firearms to personnel as part of their personal inventories in order to facilitate the accountability of such firearms.
The latter process also assists in the identification of firearms when they are found with their serial numbers filed off.
Another control measure we have put in place is the tracking of firearms in the Central Firearms Register, CFR, — commonly known as SAPS 457 — as well as The Occurrence Book — commonly known as the SAPS 10.
Competency and fitness of members are also ensured through various types of firearms courses and annual shooting practices where the emphasis is placed on the handling and safeguarding of firearms, and ensuring that members comply with the competency criteria as prescribed by legislation and departmental policy.
Lastly, another control measures is the daily parade inspections conducted by commanders on the basis of SAPS 15, which is basically a duty sheet.
In part B of the hon member’s Question, we would like to submit that we are unfortunately unable to provide further details on this Question. The timeframe within which we had to work was too tight, and the information is not readily available. We will certainly need more time to consolidate. We respectfully submit that we request a further extension in order for us to provide quality and correct information as soon as it is received. Thank you very much.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Chairperson, I just hope that my Question will actually remain on the Order Paper in the light of what the Minister has just said so that a complete picture of and a complete response to my Question is actually given.
But, arising from what the Minister has just said ... hon Minister, the continued high prevalence of the use of police firearms in crime in South Africa shows no signs of abatement. This morning I heard of another incident in which SAPS firearms were used in a robbery in Cape Town. Are the current departmental sanctions tough enough and are they enforced against police officers who are found to be negligent in their custody and safe keeping of firearms? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, indeed, we have ... I think, in the beginning of my response, for instance, I alluded to the fact that if you look at 2010 figures, we had in excess of 3 800 firearms that were lost, but we are now down to 743. Now, the decrease does not just simply come about on its own. It is precisely because of the measures that we are putting in place, including, of course, issues of compliance. Once you talk of issues of compliance therein is the question of accountability, disciplinary measures and so forth. Therefore, we are making progress in that regard.
Of course, you do have cases such as the one that you are referring to, but that in itself is part of the work that we, on our part, have to intensify to ensure that we indeed reach a stage where we do not have police firearms forming part of the criminal activities in our country. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Before I call the next member, let me just comment on what you have just asked, hon Mncwango, about your Question remaining on the Order Paper. We remind members that that is not possible because we know that replies to outstanding Questions will be printed in Hansard. Thank you very much.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, I want to acknowledge what you say about the downward trend in the number SAPS firearms being lost. That is good news. But every firearm that is lost by the SAPS is the closest we can get to the police literally shooting themselves in the foot. These lost firearms usually find their way into the hands of criminals who use them to rob, murder and terrorise ordinary citizens in their homes, work places and on the streets. What makes this particularly problematic is that it is not so that one firearm translates into one crime or one crime scene. One firearm will very often be used multiple times against multiple victims in multiple crimes. That is what makes this so bad. We need strong accountability measures to ensure that any carelessness and corruption that contributes to this problem is curbed.
Therefore, hon Minister, I would like to ask a slightly more specific Question than hon Mncwango. What specific steps has the department taken against those members of the SAPS who, according to the information from your office, have lost 2 356 firearms in the past three financial years?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mbhele, let me remind you and the other members that you only have one minute to state your supplementary Question. I allowed yours because I want the Minister to respond.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, earlier on I spoke to two broad elements of intervention. The first one is around the question of taking disciplinary steps where necessary as and when we come across such cases. But, also institutionally, there are these particular measures that we had to put in place. Some of them are the bi-annual and annual inspections; stock taking and certification of firearms; the setting of maximum stock levels; and the tracking of firearms, amongst other things. Those are some of the institutional measures that we have had to put in place to deal with such losses. Thank you very much.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Chairperson, I must respectfully submit that the Minister has not answered my Question. He repeated his opening statement about preventive measures. My Question concerns the sanctions applied to members who are found to have lost their firearms. So, post the fact not pre the fact.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Noted, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, with respect House Chair, if I may. The Ministers are accountable to Parliament and, while we certainly can’t determine their answers, I think that the Minister clearly misunderstood the Question that was put to him. Perhaps he could be given the opportunity to redeem himself and answer the Question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, I think you know the conventions of this House. If a member feels that a Minister has not answered what he was expecting, a presiding officer can’t force that Minister to answer in a particular way because the presiding officer does not know the content of the issue. We know that that is a convention of this House. Therefore I cannot do as you suggest.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chairperson, with respect, I think that convention would apply if the Minister had answered the particular Question. Obviously a presiding officer can’t force a Minister to answer a Question in a particular way. But, in this instance, I think it is different because the Minister clearly misunderstood the Question. It is two different timeframes that we are talking about: before the facts are found out and after the crime is detected. Hon Mbhele’s Question was directed post detection.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon Minister is on his feet. I don’t know what that implies? Do you want to respond, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, I thought I would really want to assist in relation to this particular Question, if you so permit.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I allow you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Okay, thank you very much. The nature of disciplinary processes is such that you can’t determine their outcome beforehand. Now, you have asked me what kind of sanctions we can impose on personnel that lose fire arms, and so on. Each particular individual case is different from another in terms of ... because you would have to determine issues such as negligence and the extent thereof, amongst other things, to arrive at the sanction. Therefore, the nature of the disciplinary processes is such that you cannot prescribe that should I find that hon Mbhele has lost a firearm, this is the kind of a sentence that I would impose. That is the clarification to that Question. Thank you very much.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Minister, we welcome the news that there is a decline in the number of firearms that are being lost or stolen. In your reply you said that, where necessary, you take disciplinary measures against those who lost firearms. Therefore, my Question is, under what circumstances is it not necessary to take disciplinary steps against those who lost firearms. If a member of the SAPS loses a firearm it means they were careless. Firearms that are lost are different from those that are stolen. We are now talking about those that were lost. Under what circumstances is it not necessary to take disciplinary measures against those who lost firearms?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: [Laughter.] Firstly, I do think that it is perhaps because I spoke in English ... Nevertheless, I wasn’t necessarily implying that taking steps is optional. I was not implying that by any means. I wasn’t.
But also the definition of loss ... losses by ... you know, loss has a broad definition. I mean you can lose your firearm because it has been stolen. You can lose it because something else has been done and so forth. Therefore, the definition is broader than just what you alluded to. I was not at all implying that it is optional to take disciplinary steps, and so, if you understood me that way, I apologise, sir. Thank you.
Ms L MABIJA: House Chairperson, I would like to request the hon Minister to furnish us with measures taken ... [Interjections.]
Can you hear what I am saying?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I can. [Interjections.]
Ms L MABIJA: I would like to request the hon Minister to furnish us with measures undertaken to ensure that the Central Firearm Registry and data capturing turnaround to ensure better management of firearms by the SAPS. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, we are making interventions. As a start, the Deputy Minister of Police, you know, conducted a site visit to the Central Firearm Registry and compiled a report that also pointed out a number of defects and deficiencies in the system. But, you will also be aware that criminal cases have also arisen out of the work that we have started doing at the Central Firearm Registry. These cases involve some of our personnel as well, in so far as the issue of Central Firearms Registry ...
Therefore, we are continuing to make follow-ups on this particular issue.
We are also interacting largely with the specific points that are pointed out by the report that the Deputy Minster of Police compiled. Thank you very much.
Plans to put an end to escalating criminal activities in Skhemelele and Manguzi
475. Mr M S Mabika (NFP) asked the Minister of Police:
What plans does his department have in place to end the escalating criminal activities at Skhemelele and Manguzi area under the uMhlabuyalingana Local Municipality where shops are broken into and burnt, and cars stolen every day and allegedly taken to Mozambique, where they cannot be easily recovered? NO4457E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, the SA Police Service is aware of the crime tendencies in Skhemelele and Manguzi area. Members have been deployed on detached duties to conduct operations and investigate relevant case dockets. The cluster commander has also initiated intelligence-driven operations, which will be ongoing, in the abovementioned areas. Currently, the SA National Defence Force is deployed along the borders of Mozambique and Swaziland. Specific focus has been given to motor vehicles crossing the border fence illegally. The SA Police Service is also performing operation duties within a 10 km radius of the border together with the SA National Defence Force.
This operational strategy is a multidisciplinary approach with the SA Police Service, as well as vehicle tracking companies. A WhatsApp chat group has been established whereby the SA National Defence Force is informed of hijacked and/or stolen vehicles making its way towards the border. This has resulted in a number of vehicles being recovered. Thank you very much.
Mnu M S MABIKA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu, indlela uNgqongqoshe aphendula ngayo lo mbuzo ayinikezithemba futhi ayikhombisi ukubaluleka kwesimo sengathi akanandaba njengoba lesi simo sibucayi kuleya ndawo. Indaba yokuthi amaphoyisa akhona kuleya ndawo ayiyintsha namasosha ahlezi ekhona. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M S MABIKA: Thank you Chairperson, the way the Minister responds to this question does not give me hope and it also does not display the importance and the urgency of that situation – it looks like he does not care but that area is in such a volatile situation. The fact that there are police in that area is not a new issue, even soldiers are always stationed there.]
Many years ago, former Minister Charles Nqakula went there, and police and soldiers were deployed, but it has not improved. The families in that area live in fear. It is happening every day.
In KwaZulu-Natal, it is like a joke because even the radio stations announce that motor vehicles are being taken from Mtubatuba and that when people pass that area, they must be careful. I would have thought that Minister ...
... uzothi, ngaphezu kwendaba yokuthunyelwa kwalamaphoyisa akhona ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.]
USIHLALO WENDU (Nksz M G Boroto): Lungu elihloniphekile, isikhathi sakho siphelile. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[... would say, in addition to the deployment of the existing police ... [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M G Boroto): Your time has expired, hon member.]
I think your question is very clear. Thank you. Hon Minister?
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Angibonge kakhulu Mphathisihlalo ngalo mbuzo kamnumzane uMabika. Ebengizama ukukucacisa phela ukuthi siyasizwa lesi simo njengoba esichaza. Kungasho lokho ukuthi asisithathi njengesimo esibalulekile ezimpilweni zabantu bakithi. Mayelana nokuthi udaba lokwebiwa kwezimonto nobugebengu obenzakalayo, okokweqa imingcele ngendlela okweqa ngayo izinto ngokungekho emthethweni akusho ukuthi lokho asikuboni. Siyakubona bakithi kodwa-ke ngiwuzwile futhi umbuzo wakhe noma engawuqedelanga, nkosi yami. Umbuzo othi: Ngaphezu kokubakhona kwamasosha namaphoyisa yikuphi okunye esikwenzayo? Bengizamile ukuchaza ukuthi olunye uhlelo esesisebenzela phezu kwalo elokufaka izinhloli ukuze kusizakale ukusebenza kwamaphoyisa. Ngakho–ke lowo msebenzi yilowo esithi uqalile ukwenzeka ngaphezu kokuba khona kwezinombolo nje, isibalo samaphoyisa sandile kanye namasosha abhekelele isimo sokuthi sinqande lolu hlobo lobugebengu kuleya ndawo. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Chair. With regard to hon Mabika’s question, what I was trying to clarify here is that we hear him as he is explaining that situation. That does not mean that we are not considering it as an important matter in our people lives. Regarding car hijackings and other connected crimes of illegal border crossings, this does not mean that we are not aware of them. Good people, we are aware of them and I have also heard his question though he did not finish it. The question is: In addition to the presence of the soldiers and the police, what else are we doing on top of that? I have tried to explain that by stating that the other plan we are working on is to involve spies to assist in police work. Therefore, that is the work we said has begun in addition to the existing available statistics, the number of police and soldiers has also increased to curb the kind of crime that is taking place in that area.]
Ms S J NKOMO: Chair, through you to the hon Minister, in respect of the these stolen vehicles, especially in the areas of Skhemelele and Manguzi, what is the current relationship – because it is quite important for us to determine that – between the SAPS, our border control police, as well as the law enforcement agencies in our neighbouring countries? Is it a good working relationship? If it is, we would be seeing a decrease in the number of these stolen cars. What else could be put in place to enhance the relationship so that we can shut down this thoroughfare of criminal trafficking, noting that it is also affecting tourism in the area? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, there is an excellent working partnership, first and foremost, between the South African law enforcement agencies but also between the law enforcement agencies that operate in that particular area with our counterparts across the borders, particularly insofar as the issues of organised crime. The issue of vehicle theft and vehicles being crossed over to the neighbouring countries forms part of the organised crime activities. So, indeed, there is that working relationship.
Let me also hasten to say that we will continue to step up our efforts to try and stem this particular tide at the level of co-ordinating our work between ourselves and our neighbouring countries in ensuring that we reduce these particular levels of activity in that area. Thank you very much.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ukuba bengazi bengizobuza umbuzo wami ngesiZulu kodwa ngifuna ukuthi kuNgqongqoshe ... [Thank you Chair, if I could I, would ask my question in isiZulu but I want to say to the Minister ...]
... our crime intelligence division has long suffered underperformance because we know that they struggle to clamp down on syndicate crime and to pre-empt the activities of vehicle theft syndicates.
This problem is further exacerbated by chronic underresourcing and mismanagement of the border control environment, making our borders effectively porous and making it so easy for stolen vehicles to be taken across the border. Whilst some of these vehicles are found before they are taken across and there is cross-border co-operation with the Mozambican police, more needs to be done.
Minister, do you have up-to-date information on the status of crime intelligence and border control capacity, and what is being done to improve this so that we can undercut these syndicates and better secure our borders?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Mbhele.
Ons leer die taal deur die taal te gebruik. Moenie bekommer nie. [We learn the language by speaking it. Don’t worry.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, as we speak, I do not have the up-to-date figures and everything else, as the hon member would want to suggest. In fact, I would suggest that he certainly needs to consider filing another question in relation to this particular matter. So, right here and now, hon member, I would not be able to provide you with an up-to-date status insofar as that question is concerned. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson and hon Minister, I have a slightly different perspective about stolen vehicles. My opinion is that most vehicles that are leaving through the borders and going to the other countries are not stolen at the time when they are going through. This is mainly as a result of insurance fraud where vehicles go across and people only report them one month later.
Could you please tell us whether there is a mechanism to determine – when you leave the border, where you make an entry, and when the cases are reported at police stations one month later – the identity of this particular vehicle that could have left and gone through the border a month ago but which was not reported at that stage.
The second thing is that the only reason vehicles are getting stolen is because there is a market for it. So, because these motor vehicle scrap yards are also a cause of this, can you tell us what mechanism you intend putting in place? Can you tell us what you intend doing, along with the motor vehicle scrap yards and together with the police, to overcome that challenge? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I think we should remember that, for instance, when a motor vehicle is stolen, it is reported at the police station. You have a case number and all other processes then follow thereafter. Of course, all tracking mechanisms will then have to take place.
The question of ... I am trying to figure out because you seem to be suggesting that there is also the question of insurance fraud scams and so on that also are part of this particular activity. Ours is not about the question of insurance. It is about yes, you said to us that you have lost your car and that it has been stolen. Ours then is to assist in searching for that vehicle and so forth. Whether we discover it two days or a month later, the fact is that we would have discovered and recovered the car, if we are successful, and therefore deal with the matter from that point of view.
I think it is a different matter altogether looking into the deeper analysis of some of the other contributing factors. If insurance scams also form part of the contributing factors, then you require a different analysis for it, I would think.
Konje ubutheni engxenyeni yesibili yombuzo? [By the way, what was the second part of your question?]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you have been asked whether you would want to repeat the second part of your question to assist the Minister before we continue.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson and hon Minister, what I was actually saying is that these vehicles that leave South Africa for other countries, at the time of leaving, are not stolen vehicles, and that is why they are able to leave and go through so easily.
The borders cannot do anything about it because you have the registration papers and the vehicles are leaving and going. However, one month later, that very owner goes and says that his or her was stolen and then claims insurance. You will then follow the normal process. I want to know whether there is a process to check back with border control whether this vehicle had indeed left South African borders a month ago – most of the instances are cases of cars going across because cars that have value are going for insurance purposes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Understood. I think it is clear now.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I think I responded to that question. That is what I dealt with. The part that I had not remembered at the time was the question of scrap yards. I fail to find a relationship between the existence of a scrap yard and cars being taken across the border, for example.
However, I think the valid part of your intervention is that there is a need for us to study more closely the question of the scrap metal industry. A number of serious concerns have been raised so, at some point, we had been saying to representatives of business that we do need to have a serious discussion about the question of how we deal with the scrap metal industry in this country and the manner in which it also ... I shouldn’t say that. I nearly said the wrong thing. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Siyathokoza. Siragela phambili, kwanjesi sizoku ... [Thank you. We are proceeding, now we will ...]
Mr M S MABIKA: Chairperson, I need to put it on record to say the Minister only responded to the part of the stolen vehicles but did not touch on the issue that pertains to the shops that are broken into. He is aware of the issue of the mini police station, which has long been discussed around the Skhemelele area, so I would have thought that he would address that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mabika, let me just remind you again, if you feel that part of your question was not answered ...
... akulona icala esingakwenza nje ... [... it is not a problem what, we can do ...]
... politically, you know how to follow up for that question to be answered, but ...
... okwamanje angeke ngithi abuyele kuwona awuphendule. Ngiyaxolisa. [... for now I am not going to say that he must go back to it and answer it. I am sorry.]
Challenges in relation to integrating the criminal justice system
479. Adv B T Bongo (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services:
What (a) are the key remaining challenges in fulfilling the objective of integrating the criminal justice system, despite the recorded progress and (b) gives rise to the specified challenges? NO4463E
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The transformation of the criminal justice system, CJS, into a modernised effective criminal justice system through integrated interventions is continuing to ensure that we deliver quality and professional services in an integrated co-ordinated, effective and efficient justice system.
A main element of the transformation of the CJS is dealing with the development and provision of integrated systems to facilitate integration across the value chain of the CJS. This includes: The provision of an integrated and seamless national CJS information system to facilitate more informed strategies and plans; decision making; as well as facilitating batter day-to-day operational management. It also relates to the provision of integrated technology solutions aimed at modernising operations, reducing costs and eliminating waste.
Some of the challenges that remain a focal point however, and therefore need attention for the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster are the following. The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is experiencing difficulties to implement the network upgrade at identified courts for Integrated Justice System solution, IJS solution, due to State Information Technology Agency, Sita, processes.
The IJS transversal migration has been delayed for more than a year. This entails moving of physical information technology, i.e. the IT infrastructure, from SA Police Service, SAPS, to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
The SA Police Service is experiencing delays: In delivering the person architecture; in the development of a unique person identified capability; as well as integrated bookings. This has led to the delays in delivering person tracking and modernisation at SA Police Service level.
Due to a lack of funding, the Department of Social Development cannot upgrade the virtual private network that will allow the department to set up an integration endpoint. This is also impacting on the ability of Department of Social Development to electronically exchange information with other participating departments through the integrated justice system.
The Department of Correctional Services is experiencing delays in the development of the integration endpoint, as well as the integrated inmate management system, data integrity challenges affects the delivery of key performance indicators relating the DSD data for the business intelligence solutions, etc.
Adv B T BONGO: Sithokoze! Hon Minister, thank you for the elaborate response. Given the challenges outlined: What practically will an integrated criminal justice system mean to an ordinary citizen who requires access and assistance from the criminal justice system? And, when will this be likely to be completed?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I must concede that the targeted timeframe within which to effectively implement the system fully continues to be a challenge. As I have indicated, we have already exceeded a year at this stage because of the challenges that I have outlined.
So, at this stage, I am not in a position to give an exact timeframe as the different aspects do not depend entirely on one single role player, but it is a multiplicity of players with unique challenges that continue to bedevil the exact date at which we hope to be fully ready to implement.
Mr W HORN: Minister, last year, you answered to a written question which I had asked you. From 1998 up until then, R2,3 billion has been spent to develop this system. Yet, in August this year, when the portfolio committee was briefed, we were informed that, up to now, only four cases have been able to be handled through the integrated criminal justice system from start to finish.
If you take into account the budgetary provision of this year, that roughly works out to R600 million per case. Yet, you talk of the development of a seamless system and timeframes being a challenge. Minister, will this ever be finished? And, has anybody felt the consequences of nonachievement in the development of this system?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I will indeed concede that it has taken quite a length of time to accomplish the full operationalisation of this system, which is unfortunate. The various factors that I have alluded to, and others which time did not allow me to mention, continue to bedevil our effort to bring the system online.
I must just indicate that the hon member would be asked to be honest enough to put matters in proper context. For purposes of demonstration: If you take a selection of cases to demonstrate how effective the system would be able to facilitate the management of cases in an integrated manner; then that could not be put out of context as suggesting that there is only four cases that an entire system at that cost would be dedicated to handle.
Mr N P KHOZA: I will take the supplementary question for hon Mente. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): May I establish if hon Mente is in the House?
Mr N P KHOZA: She is not in the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): But, why do you do that, hon members? Okay, continue, but let’s refrain from doing that! Continue!
Mr N P KHOZA: Okay, thank you. When is the Minister going to establish magistrates’ courts per municipalities for practical integration of criminal justice, to make justice system a social function accessible by all?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Although it is a different question, nonetheless, I respond because the issue is indeed important enough. I need to remind the hon member that on 1 December 2014, we launched a project to rationalise the magisterial districts throughout the country, commencing in two provinces, namely Gauteng and North West.
We have plans to roll out that programme throughout the country precisely in order to achieve the objective that the hon member has alluded to, namely to re-align the boundaries of district courts, with the geographical boundaries in terms of our current constitutional dispensation.
Equally, the same is being done in ensuring that the geographical boundaries of our High Courts are also aligned to the provincial boundaries as outlined in our Constitution. This is so as to ensure consistency in the manner in which government is organised across different sectors, and that would include the justice system as well. Thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon House Chair, I would like to know from the hon Minister whether this integration will also include principles of African traditional customary criminal law or not? The reason I am asking this is that traditional leadership and traditional customary law are enshrined in our Constitution and Customary Law is widely used by our people, especially in the rural areas.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I can see the hon member’s passion with regard to Customary Law issues, which is not misplaced. Indeed, as the department, we take the constitutional injunction of ensuring that in as much as legislation and common law are given full expression in our legal system and in our jurisprudence, so is African Indigenous Law which is often referred to as Customary Law.
To this end, members of the portfolio committee would recall in a recent engagement, that we talked extensively about the need to explore ways of ensuring integration of African indigenous value systems under indigenous law into the mainstream of our jurisprudence. Our reading of the Constitution is that there is no express relegation of that system to only those who historically have adhered to and lived according to that system.
Hence, for example, the Constitutional Court embraced that notion of ubuntu in some of its judgements which is a notion that is borrowed from indigenous law. We think that there is a lot more that indigenous law can contribute in the development of our jurisprudence generally. That should include ensuring the pending development of a legal framework for the integration of traditional court tribunals into the mainstream justice system is also expedited. Thank you.
Progress made in improving facilities for victim-offender care and mediation
480. Mr L K B Mpumlwana (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services:
What progress has been made in the improvement of facilities for victim-offender care and mediation and other restorative justice programmes since the advent of democracy in the country? NO4464E
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I wish to inform the hon member that government is committed to implement measures aimed at continued reform of the justice system to protect and promote the rights of victims.
Government adopted the service chatter for victims of crime in 2004 and the Justice Crime Prevention and Security Cluster approved the Restorative Justice Policy in 2011.
We have expanded the Thuthuzela Care Centres to 55 sites where victims of sexual offenses are assisted in one stop centre settings with a victim friendly environment for the prosecutor guided investigations with a view to reduce the cycle period in the finalization of cases and to reduce the secondary victimisation that often occurs. It is not worth it that 65% of the matters that goes to the Thuthuzela Care Centres are rape cases.
The National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, has also appointed court preparation officers at the courts to explain to the victims and witnesses the court procedure, the waiting areas for consultations etcetera. Hundred and eighty five court intermediaries have been appointed to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to assist children and in some instance other vulnerable witnesses that must testify in court. The appointment of more intermediaries will continue within the budgetary constraints.
The core objective of Restorative Justice Programmes in the criminal justice system is to ensure that offenders receive the opportunity to realise, appreciate and repent of the harm that they have caused. Apologise to the victim if the victim agrees his or her family and or the community at large and as far as possible, restore the balance of justice that was disturbed when the crime was committed. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Ms M G BOROTO: Hon Mpumlwana, before you come in. Hon members, let me not recognise your voices. You can converse, but please, I can hear some of the conversations you are making from where I am sitting, it’s not right.
Mr L K B MPUMLWANA: Minister, thank you very much for your comprehensive reply to my question. I just wanted clarification on your plans, according to African system of justice, families of the offender and that of the victim usually come together as soon as the offense is committed with a view to make peace and reparation.
May I respectfully request your opinion with regard to introducing restorative justice as early as possible before or after, as soon as the offender is convicted by a court of all?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I may as well add in response to the follow up question from the hon member that my view is that restorative justice can actually be applied even prior to the formal criminal justice process is initiated through divergent measures. For example, where an effort is made to reconcile the offender and the perpetrator and actually, to resolve matters outside of the formal judicial process, especially, when it relates to minor offenses.
But nonetheless, to concur with the hon member that indeed there is value in adopting the indigenous value systems that could assist in resolving some of the difficulties associated with socio conflict associated with the commission of crime using the less punitive and rather more reconciliatory interventions that indigenous systems offer. Thank you.
Mr W HORN: Minister, it is good to know that you prefer to be in favour of restorative justice. Yet, under your watch the budgetary allocation for social reintegration from where restorative justice is funded as has remained at lowly 4%, coupled with the fact that the unfilled positions for social workers – you must facilitate this, is constantly in excess of 20%. Why must we not conclude that to talk about restorative justice is just to say that we are having it and not to make a difference in the lives of either offenders or those who have been targeted by crime.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you for that fair criticism. I would be the first to concede that indeed, the current structure of our budget does not quit reflect fully the policy thrust that we have adopted as the government of bringing the victim for example, at the centre of the criminal justice system of ensuring that rehabilitation and other corrective interventions are given greater emphasis in the manner in which we respond to offending behaviour in the country.
However, I can assure the hon member that in this regard, we are looking into the issue of gradual shift to ensure that for example, we have recently appointed some 65 persons who will deal specifically with the tracing of victims since there has not been up to this far a special offers that deals with that specific responsibility even though it is a critical focal point in our parole system, for example.
The emphasis that we want to put going forward in policy is to ensure that social reintegration measure victim participation and victim empowerment are amongst the areas that receive greater focus not only in corrections but as well as in the entire value chain of the criminal justice system. I thank you.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, can the Minister tell us why if this is such a very important role that not every centre around the country has adequate facility to perform this function? And also what plans are afoot to make sure that we do have these facilities at every centre in the country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I have taken it upon myself to visit the various regions in the country both of the Department of Justice as well as of corrections and had interaction, region per region and with centres that I was able to visit in the cause to actually emphasise the need for both facilities as well as management areas as well as regions to redirect their focus in line with the prescripts and the current policy that is articulated in our White Paper and other policy documents of ensuring that the there is this gradual shift in the allocation of resources. We have challenges of personnel and vacancies that need to be addressed hence for example, recently I gave instructions that about 3000 vacancies that were there be filled as a matter of urgency and of course, the downside of it is that we ended up with about a million applications that were quite a challenge to manage.
So we are doing everything in our power to ensure that we capacitate the system nationally to ensure that it is able to respond fully to these obligations which we concede are articulated in our prescripts and our policies. I thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Chairperson, I would like to know from the hon Minister whether this care and mediation includes financial reparation and if it does what happens in a case where the offender is a man of straw. What other recourse does the victim have? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: In terms of our law if a person has committed an offense the prosecution against that person does not exclude the possibility of a victim bringing civil action for recovery of damages that resulted from that offense. In fact, in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act, provision has made for prosecutors to assist victims in recovering damages that may have resulted from the offense itself as matters stand. The full utilisation of those provisions and their application is often bedevilled firstly, by lack of knowledge of these rights by victims of crime. Secondly, prosecution sometimes not actually seizing the opportunity to come to the avail of victims in this manner.
We are looking at evaluating entire criminal justice value chain to ask the question to what extent in the light of all the policies I alluded to earlier in my main reply that seek to address the situation of the victim, what else we can still do to ensure that more attention is given to the plight of the victim of crime. Thank you.
Progress made in implementing recommendations of Farlam Commission of Inquiry
495. Mr Z N Mbhele (DA) asked the Minister of Police:
What progress has been made in implementing the recommendations made by the Farlam Commission of Inquiry with regard to members of the SA Police Service who were deployed in Marikana on 16 August 2012? NO4482E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, hon members, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, the Ipid, in accordance with its legislative mandate is in the process of conducting investigations, but also Ipid is in the special project of sorts with the National Director of Public Prosecutions, the NDPP, in following up around the specific matters raised by the Farlam Commission of Inquiry. We are of the view that the processes would have to be allowed to take their due course without undue influences and so on. One part of the due process is that Ipid must also do a reconstruction of the scene as part of the investigations. Then, on the basis of such the collaboration between Ipid and the NDPP would have to zoom into the specifics of the issues as raised by the hon Judge Farlam. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, with regards to the Farlam Commission Reports, Minister and its determination that the Commission was unable to make a conclusive adverse or favourable finding in relation to Minister Nathi Mthethwa’s involvement in the events at Marikana. That’s the Cabinet relates to culpability. As the current Minister of Police, have you engaged the President as to further investigation steps to be taken to fully assess Minister Mthethwa’s involvement in the event at Marikana. If you have not done so yet, will you do so in the near future and if not, why not?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, that’s a different question all together. I would suggest that if that’s the question that you want to pursue, you would then need to follow the normal processes and so on, particularly in pursuing that question. The question that was posed by hon Mbhele is what progress has been made in implementing the recommendations made by the Farlam Commission of Inquiry with regard to members of the SA Police Service who were deployed in Marikana on the 16 August 2012. That’s the question. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: Madam Chairperson, Minister, staying on the subject of the recommendations of the report, the report made a number of recommendations regarding the policing of protests; given an increase frequency of protests across the country, most notably the fees must fall protest here at Parliament, at the ANC’s Luthuli House and Union Buildings, it’s imperative that public order policing is adequately trained, equipped and resourced to diffuse and not inflame protests.
Minister, what is the police doing in terms of training, capacitation and resourcing to ensure that this proportion of violent retaliation against protesters is avoided? To be specific, has the panel to review public order policing and analyse international best practice as recommended been established, if not when do you intend to establish this panel? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Madam Chairperson, we made the public announcements in regard to the panel, for an example as part of a clearly pointed out recommendation from the Farlam Commission of Inquiry. Earlier on in this very same session, I also alluded to the fact that in the coming two weeks we will be making public announcements about the whole question of the effective constitution of the panel as well as the transformation task team that we had spoken about. Indeed, we should also be taken into account that since December 2013, the question of the public order policing has been the matter receiving attention on the side of the SAPS, both regarding numbers and capacitation but also issues of training as well as issues of equipment and so forth.
Now taking forward the recommendations by the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, the panel of experts is going to assist us because we need to study and interact with the broad spectrum of issues around crowd management and public order policing, for an example and looking at ways and means of how best do we then equipped ourselves to deal with issues of public order policing in the South African context. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.
Mnu M A MNCWANGO: Ngiyabonga Mphathisihlalo, ngicela ukusho kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi noma ngingasasukumi nalutho kodwa-ke ngiyafisa ukwazi ukuthi mayelana nalamaphoyisa athinteka eMarikana ngabe nawo unalo yini uhlelo lokuthi nxa sekuqeqeshwa bonke laba abakuphiko lokwenziwa komsebenzi wobuphoyisa ngendlela phecelezi i-public order policing nababeyingxenye yalokho na.
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Mphathisihlalo, ngibonge nakulungu elihloniphekile ubaba uMncwango, embuzweni awubekayo uma usesiphoyiseni kubalulekile ukuthi sifunde izindlela nezinhlelo ezintsha zokwazi ukubhekana nesimo sobuphoyisa ikakhulukazi izintweni ezithinta imibhikisho yomphakathi. Noma wakukhona eMarikana noma wawungekho eMarikana bonke labo bantu bamdibi munye. Kufuneka sibabuke labo bantu ikakhulukazi ngoba uhlelo lwethu lolu lophiko lokwenziwa komsebenzi wobuphoyisa ngendlela phecelezi i-public order policing yiyona nkundla okufuneka sikwazi ukuyisebenzisa mayelana nokubuka izindlela ezintsha zokuthuthukisa indlela yobuphoyisa nokuqapha izimo zomphakathi. Ngiyabonga kakhulu Mphathisihlalo.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nksz A T Didiza): Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe, isikhathi semibuzo sesifinyelele ekupheleni, izimpendulo esizitholile zizawubhalwa zishicilelwe kwi-Hansard. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like to state to the Minister that even though I no longer have much to say, but I would like to know if you have any processes in place regarding the members of the Police Services who were deployed in Marikana when training members of public order policing and those who were part of it?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you Chairperson, thank you also to hon Mncwango, with regard to the question he is posing, if you are in policing, it is important to learn new strategies and processes in order to be able to handle policing situations especially in public protests. Whether you were present in Marikana or not but all those people were together. We must look at those people, especially because this public order policing process is what we must engage in in order to view new processes in developing public order policing and monitoring of public situations. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The Chairperson (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you Minister, time allocated for questions has expired outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.]
Time allocated for questions has expired outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms T Didiza): Does any member wish to give notice of a motion? Thank you very much. No member has indicated that he or she would like to give notice of a motion. [Interjections.]
I don’t think any of us are doing well in this heat. I asked the question, and no members responded! So I assumed we had to move to the next item! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Okay, hon members! The hon member for the ANC?
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms P BHENGU: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates building a national school of governance.
Me V VAN DYK: Agb Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek namens die DA op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis sal voorstel dat die Huis die uiters slegte grondpad tussen Springbok en Gamoep vir die vervoer van radioaktiewe afvalmateriaal na Vaalputs en die gevaar wat dit inhou indien ’n ongeluk sou plaasvind, debateer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Ms V VAN DYK: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the extremely bad gravel road between Springbok and Gamoep for the transportation of radioactive waste to Vaalputs and the danger this poses if an accident occurs.]
Ms V KETABAHLE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the need for legislation that prescribes for a minimum of 51% of all companies listed on the JSE to be owned and controlled by workers.
Mr M P SIBANDE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates a vetting and lifestyle audit of senior government officials.
Ms VAN DER WALT: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the total collapse of the Thabazimbi Municipality in Limpopo.
Ms N P SONTI: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the imposition of an education tax on all corporate companies so as to fund free quality education.
Mr M A DIRKS: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates the important role that South Africa plays in supporting the strengthening of public services in postconflict countries on the African continent.
Mr M WATERS: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the surge in violent crime that is spiraling out of control in Kempton Park, and urgent solutions to combat this scourge.
Ms D P MANANA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates intensifying training of councilors as well as constant evaluation on their progress.
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the across-the-board implementation of equal work for equal pay for all workers, irrespective of race, class and background.
Mr S M RALEGOMA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates exercising constant oversight over construction companies that build houses, with the view to eradicating poor workmanship.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP that the House debates the need to ensure that national and provincial government departments and major business corporations settle their debts with municipalities – an amount now totaling more than R6 billion. [Interjections.]
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the development of a concrete social and labour development model which will ensure that communities living around mines are developed using the proceeds of mining.
Adv B T BONGO: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates Legal Aid SA which was the recipient of two unqualified audit opinion awards with no findings in the 2014-15 financial year. This was Legal Aid SA’s fourteenth consecutive unqualified audit opinion, and third clean audit award from the Office of the Auditor-General since its inception. Also of importance is the fact that Legal Aid SA spent 98,1% of its budget allocation for the financial year. We want Treasury to allocate money to this institution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, let us remember that this is not yet the time for Members’ Statements. This is the time for Notices of Motion.
Are there any members wishing to give Notices of Motion?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, could I request, through your Office, that the Table staff check whether that was actually compliant as a Notice of a Motion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): That is why I reminded members, hon Chief Whip. We will indeed check. But I was just reminding members in case some of us had forgotten.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
RHODES PARK GANG RAPE AND MURDERS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the NFP:
That this House -
(1) notes that on Sunday, 17 October 2015, four people were attacked by a gang of 12 men in Rhodes Park, Kensington, Johannesburg;
(2) also notes that the two male victims were stripped naked, had their hands and feet bound and were thrown into a dam in the park, where they drowned in full view of their helpless female companions;
(3) further notes that one of the two females was repeatedly and brutally raped by the group of attackers, whilst the other woman managed to escape and run away;
(4) also notes that, to date, no arrests have been made in connection with this barbaric act;
(5) extends its condolences to the grieving families of the two men who died and wish the rape victim a speedy recovery from her ordeal; and
(6) calls upon the SA Police Service to leave no stone unturned in bringing the perpetrators of this heinous crime to justice.
FEES MUST FALL CAMPAIGN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF:
That the House —
(1) notes the ideological clarity and resolve of higher education students who shook the establishment by demanding free, quality university education and an end to the practice of outsourcing workers;
(2) further notes that, over the years, thousands of students, predominantly black, have been kicked out of university simply because they cannot afford higher education, and thousands more have their results and certificates withheld by the universities, preventing them from applying for and getting jobs;
(3) acknowledges that currently, students from the top eight universities in the country owe over R711 million in tuition fees and on loans, and many of these students will have their results withheld and will not be able to register again next year;
(4) further acknowledges that the frustration of students comes as a result of years of neglect by the ANC-led government, particularly the communist, Blade Nzimande, in charge of higher education in this country;
(5) notes the shameless opportunism of the ANC, who, under the instruction of Gwede Mantashe, hijacked the revolutionary potential that the Fees Must Fall movement had by printing ANC t-shirts on which was written “Fees must fall” for the march to the Union Buildings;
(6) further notes that the ANC thinks South Africans are stupid, by marching against the antipoor and antifree education position of their own government, and thought South Africans would forget that we are in this crisis as a result of the ANC itself;
(7) calls on the students to refuse to be misled by charlatans who appear to be sympathetic to the cause of free education but who preside over an economically precise regime that excludes poor students from universities;
(8) further calls on students not to be sidetracked by those among them who have unquestioning loyalty to the ANC and who, as a result, would seek to stop students from seeing their revolution to the necessary conclusion;
(9) emphasises that the no fee increment agreed upon by President Zuma and all heads of universities is not free education, as many students will still be excluded next year because they will not have the required money;
(10) condemns President Zuma for inciting the violence that ensued at the march to the Union Buildings by refusing to address the thousands of students who had assembled there;
(11) further condemns Minister Nzimande for not taking the plight of poor students seriously, even joking about it and saying that he would lead a #studentsmustfall march; and
(12) congratulates all the students who have been part of this march and encourages them to continue until free education is attained.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Can we allow another member to read his motion? Thank you.
30TH ANNIVERSARY OF TROJAN HORSE MASSACRE
(Draft Resolution)
Dr G A GROOTBOOM: Hon Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the House -
(1) notes that on 15 and 16 October, it was exactly 30 years since the Trojan Horse Massacre of 1985;
(2) also notes that the incident rocked the South African community at large, when anti-apartheid protests ripped through parts of Athlone in the Western Cape;
(3) recalls how the police loaded an SA Railways truck with crates close to the edges, leaving the middle unloaded to create space for the police to hide in;
- further recalls that armed police hiding behind the crates sprang up and opened fire, killing three young people from the Cape Flats;
- remembers Jonathan Claasen, aged 21, Shaun Magmoed, aged 15, and Michael Miranda, aged 11; and
(6) sends our heartfelt sympathies to their families as we honour their memory.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chair, we can’t have the party of P W Botha come and grandstand here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are you objecting, hon member?
Mr M N PAULSEN: I object.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, on a point of order: I would suggest that the hon Paulsen pays his maintenance before he comes here and lectures other people. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Order! [Applause.] Order! Order! Hon members, can I address you?
Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please take your seat? Can you please take your seat? [Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon Matiase, can you take your seat? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... hon members, may I ask us to respect this House? [Interjections.] Can I ask all of us to respect the proceedings we are undertaking? I don’t think a wrong corrects another wrong. Can we please proceed? The IFP. [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: Can you rule? [Interjections.] Can you rule that that punching bag withdraws that remark? [Interjections.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: It’s a fucking lie! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member of the IFP ...
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, I beg your pardon, I’m ... [Interjections.]
Ms S V KALYAN: Chair, may I address you on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, there is a member behind you from your party standing on a point of order, too. Yes, hon member, what’s the point of order?
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, the point is that people are starting to use the F-word in this House, and really, that is just unacceptable.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Yesterday, in this very House, we were reminded that points of order are about procedural matters, not points of debate. Can we please stick to that Rule? May I now recognise ... hon member Kalyan?
Ms S V KALYAN: Chair, on a point of order: The hon Paulsen used unparliamentary language, and I’d like to ask you to ask him to withdraw that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): May you please take a seat? Hon Paulsen, which word was it that you used? Which word was used? [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: If she is saying I used an unparliamentary word ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen ...
Mr M N PAULSEN: ... then she must tell me what word!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen, I have not recognised you yet. [Interjections.] Hon member, can you, please?
Ms S V KALYAN: It was quite audible. I am not going to repeat it, but it starts with an “f”.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Alright. Hon Paulsen ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Don’t deny it now!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Did you use the word, as alleged? [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I objected to the lies that that fat, podgy man ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member ...
Mr M N PAULSEN: ... that white, podgy punching bag there ... [Interjections.] ... Alright, you’re not giving me a chance. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen ...
Mr M N PAULSEN: No, no!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen, all I asked was whether you used the word, as it is alleged – not to explain to me what you were doing. [Interjections.] That’s all I want to know.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I objected, and I didn’t use anything unparliamentary ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please ...
Mr M N PAULSEN: She must tell me what it is. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! [Interjections.] Hon member Paulsen, can you take your seat? [Interjections.] Can you take your seat? [Interjections.]
Mr M N PAULSEN: Oh, shut up! [Interjections.] Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Take your seat. [Interjections.] Can you please take your seat? [Interjections.] Hon members, I will ask the NA Table to look into this matter. Obviously, seated where I am sitting, I could not hear what was said, and there are members who claim they did hear. The hon member has been asked. He said he did not use the word, so we will follow up and check if the Hansard did pick up anything.
Can we now move to the hon member Van der Merwe from the IFP?
NATIONAL DISABILITY RIGHTS AWARENESS MONTH
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes that South Africa commemorates National Disability Rights Awareness Month annually between 3 November and 3 December;
(2) further notes that 3 December is the International Day of Persons with Disabilities and is also commemorated as National Disability Rights Awareness Day;
(3) acknowledges that many South African citizens still suffer numerous injustices due to their physical or other disabilities;
(4) further acknowledges that the objectives of this Awareness Month include increasing awareness of the rights of persons with disabilities, and accelerating equal access to socioeconomic and other opportunities; and
(5) calls upon all South Africans, this House and all relevant stakeholders to make these objectives attainable.
INTERNATIONAL AWARDS FOR DJ BLACK COFFEE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that on Tuesday, 29 September 2015, DJ Black Coffee, whose real name is Nkosinathi Maphumulo, won the International DJ of the Year Award at the 18th Annual DJ Awards in Ibiza;
(2) further notes that this prize, the Best Breakthrough DJ Award, was followed by another prize, the Dance Nation of the Year Award, to make two prizes by the South African DJ at the same awards;
(3) acknowledges that these coveted music awards, where 10 DJ categories are presented, are crucial and are considered by many to be the Oscars of the DJ industry;
(4) recalls that, in a bid to get South Africa dancing to his tunes, DJ Black Coffee challenged celebrities to a dance, which quickly became popular on social media;
(5) acknowledges that Black Coffee recently released his new album, Pieces of Me, which has topped the charts along the way; and
(6) congratulates DJ Black Coffee on raising the South African flag high in the music industry.
ECONOMIC FREEDOM MARCH
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF:
That the House —
(1) notes that yesterday, the EFF led an historical economic freedom march, painting the streets of Johannesburg red, shutting down Sandton, to deliver memorandums to the Chamber of Mines, the SA Reserve Bank and the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE, to demand changes that will see the radical economic transformation necessary for the equitable redistribution of the much-needed benefits of South Africa’s natural wealth;
(2) further notes that when the EFF march started at Mary Fitzgerald Square in Newton at 10:00, the Johannesburg Metropolitan Police Department, JMPD, estimated that just under 10 000 people had joined the march;
(3) also notes that by the time the commander-in-chief, Julius Malema, handed a second memorandum of demands to the SA Reserve Bank, the JMPD estimated numbers to have swollen to just under 15 000;
- further notes that when the economic freedom march approached Oxford Road, the number of fighters marching towards the JSE, led by the commander-in-chief, having walked for more than 13 km, was estimated at 35 000 people, and by the time the memorandum was handed to the JSE at 16:00, the JMPD confirmed that the economic freedom march was attended by more than 50 000 people ...
HON MEMBERS: Yes! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Yes! They were shitting their pants! [Interjections.]
Mr N S MATIASE: ...many of whom walked for more than ...
An HON MEMBER: ... nyaope!
Mr N S MATIASE: ... 27 km to demand the nationalisation of mines and the state-owned bank, a ban on labour brokers, a R12 500 minimum wage for all mineworkers, a R4 500 national minimum wage, the use of local service providers for all companies listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, procurement of local goods, local beneficiation, private sector contribution to education and vocational training, and other financial sector-related matters;
(5) acknowledges that all young, old, unemployed, oppressed and economically excluded black people ...
[Interjections.]
HON MEMBER: Abantu abahluphekayo! [Poor people!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!
Mr N S MATIASE: ... who are saying that they are tired of living like slaves and it is time to start living like human beings, like all on this side and perhaps also on that side, by going to the source of the problem, as the ANC-led government has failed our people;
(6) calls on all the recipients of the memorandums of demands to take these memorandums seriously, and swiftly move to address all outlined demands as soon as possible within the given timelines, failing which, we will shut down the whole of Johannesburg; and
(7) calls on the broader private sector to work with the Chamber of Mines, the Johannesburg Stock Exchange and the SA Reserve Bank to ensure that the demands of the economic freedom march are met, unconditionally.
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, thank you very much. While the hon Matiase was delivering his motion, the actor President over there said that the 50 000 marchers were on nyaope. Now, I want her to withdraw her insult against the people in this country. [Interjections.] She said they were on nyaope. That excuse of a Member of Parliament to say that ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Sorry, what are you saying she said?
Mr M N PAULSEN: She said those marchers were on nyaope. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take your seat? Thank you, hon member. Order, hon members! Hon Shabangu, did you say what has been alleged?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, I never said those people were on nyaope. I said they were leading nyaope. I never said people; I never said people.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. I will consult with the NA Table and then I will give a ruling at the appropriate time. [Interjections.]
Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Sorry, there is a member behind you who is also standing on a point of order. So, who are you deciding will speak?
Mr N S MATIASE: I will speak. Madam Chair, I hear your ruling. Your ruling amounts to a slap on the wrist of the actor who is the Acting President.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I ... Order!
Mr N S MATIASE: She’s got the audacity ... She’s got the audacity ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member! Hon Matiase, can you please take your seat?
Mr N S MATIASE: I’m standing on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, what I said ... I have not ruled on that matter. All that I said was that I will get advice from the NA Table and then I will make my ruling thereafter. So no ruling has been made. Can you please take your seat? The UDM?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, may I address you? Since yesterday ...
15 YEAR OLD LEROY MOKGATLE WINS GOLD AT THE PRESTIGIOUS GENÉE INTERNATIONAL BALLET COMPETITION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M L W FILTANE: I move without notice:
That the House -
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member!
Ms M O MOKAUSE: What is your ... [Inaudible.]
Mr M L W FILTANE:
- notes that 15-year-old Leroy Mokgatle ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members!
Mr M L W FILTANE: ... has made our country shine in the global village after having won a gold medal ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! Order, hon members! Can I ask you to take a seat? Let’s allow the UDM to finish their point. I will come back to you. Filtane?
15 YEAR OLD LEROY MOKGATLE WINS GOLD AT THE PRESTIGIOUS GENÉE INTERNATIONAL BALLET COMPETITION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M L W FILTANE: I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes that 15-year-old Leroy Mokgatle has made our country shine in the global village after having won a gold medal at the prestigious Genée International Ballet Competition which was hosted by the Royal Academy of Dance in London on 19 September 2015;
- further notes that Mokgatle, in addition to winning the gold medal, was presented with the Margot Fonteyn Audience Choice Award;
- acknowledges that he was among 76 contestants who came from different countries around the world;
- further acknowledges that his victory has opened many doors, as he said that this achievement earned him many scholarship offers to dance for companies around the world;
- congratulates him, his technical team and coach for the excellent job, and for the way he represented the country; and
- wishes him all the best in his future career.
Agreed to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I asked yesterday that when members object they must stand and go to the mic. Nobody has. Can I ask you to rise on your point of order?
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chair. The EFF stood and objected to this motion, but nonetheless ... [Interjections.] ... my point of order is that since yesterday when you presided over the proceedings, every time an EFF member rises on a point of order you dismiss them. It’s wrong. When the DA or the ANC stands up you acknowledge them. It’s very clear that you are compromising the whole process on our account, and hon Didiza, this must come to an end. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I take it that indeed your last statement is not a threat because what happened, both on the occasion of a point of order raised by hon Steenhuisen and hon Paulsen, I cautioned both members. Hon Paulsen? Hon Paulsen? A point of order was raised against him in respect of the F-word and I asked your member who responded and said he didn’t say it. I then said I will follow up on the matter. No ruling has been made.
In the same instance hon Matiase raised a point of order in respect of what hon Shabangu said. I gave hon Shabangu a chance, equally like hon Paulsen, and asked her whether she did mention what was alleged. I said that I will get advice from the NA Table with regard to both instances. No ruling has been made. So I wouldn’t agree with you hon member, because in both instances no ruling has been made. Only when we have considered the matters that is when we can.
I think it’s important for me to remind hon members that when an allegation is made and the Chair has not heard, the appropriate thing one does is to ask the member whether an allegation proffered against him or her is true or not and the member responds. If the other party is not satisfied one actually has to take the matter further by investigating. That’s the procedure. I hope hon members that we have understood one another on the process. Hon Matiase?
Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, can you please be consistent?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.
Mr N S MATIASE: I stood up on a point of order with regard to the utterances of John Steenhuisen ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen.
Mr N S MATIASE: ... that his utterances are unparliamentary and borders on private matters of members. I stood up for you to rule, similarly as you ruled on the points of order that were brought before you. Can you please rule and also refer his matter for consultation ... [Inaudible.] That’s what we are asking.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, can you please take your seat? Hon Steenhuisen, can you please take your seat?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, can I please address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I will address you afterwards. Can you take your seat for now?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I please have an opportunity to address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please take your seat? I said earlier that there were exchanges between hon Paulsen and hon Steenhuisen, and both said things to each other that actually needs investigation as to whether they are parliamentary or not. I said I will investigate, so I am not sure why members think no ruling is going to be made. A ruling will be made on all those matters. The NA Table has noted those things, so can I please advise that you allow us to proceed with the business of the day? Hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I do just want to make one point in prejudging your ruling if I may, and that is that this House less than a month ago passed legislation called the Maintenance Amendment Bill. I think that we as Members of Parliament have a duty to uphold the laws of South Africa that are passed here. So I think ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen, Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... a slogan of pay back the papgeld. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Paulsen, can you please take your seat. Hon Steenhuisen, I have asked that I be allowed to make a ruling. Let’s not prejudge what the ruling is going to be, nor start another new matter. Can I now recognise ... Hon Matiase, between you and Paulsen who is ...
Mr N S MATIASE: I am standing on behalf of the EFF at this point in time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): So, what is the point of order?
Mr N S MATIASE: The point of order is that because of your fear of a white fellow ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen?
Mr N S MATIASE: ... you have allowed him ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen! Hon Steenhuisen!
Mr N S MATIASE: You have allowed him ... [Interjections.] Madam Chair, I’m standing on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It’s not a point of order that you are raising. You are making a judgement on a matter that has not been ruled on. So can you please take your seat?
Mr N S MATIASE: I’m not making a judgement. On which point did he stand up?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I reprimanded hon Steenhuisen. I don’t think you need to stand up on a point of order. Can you please take your seat?
Mr N S MATIASE: He must not make us remind him of the reason why he was deployed here from the municipality where he comes from.
THE DEATH OF ZANELE NALEDI NTOMBIZODWA MOYO
(Draft Resolution)
Mr X MABASA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes, with sadness, the death of Zanele Naledi Ntombizodwa Moyo, daughter of Zimbabwe’s Higher and Tertiary Education Minister, Jonathan Moyo, who was found dead on Saturday, 17 October 2015 in her room at the University of Cape Town in South Africa;
- further notes that the 20-year-old Zanele was studying for a degree in political science, international relations and gender studies at the time of her death;
- acknowledges that she was the second youngest of Prof Moyo’s five daughters and was born in Kenya;
- understands that the cause of death is still under police investigation; and
- conveys condolences to the Moyo family on the death of Zanele.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, those are internal arrangements of the ANC. I object.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Ms A T DIDIZA: Hon members, can I ask all of us to respect our own Rules. When you object, you just object. We don’t need to hear your view on the reasons as to why you object. If you object, just object.
Mr N P KHOZA: Before I read my ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You can read your statement; you don’t need a preface.
Mr N P KHOZA: No, before I read my motion without notice, can I request to address you on the previous matter?
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Ms A T DIDIZA: No, I have closed that matter and I am allowing you to give your motion.
ILLEGAL EVICTION BY ANC COUNCILLORS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N P KHOZA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes that the EFF has open a case of corruption against ANC councilors in Emalahleni in Mpumalunga who are evicting people illegally from municipal-provided accommodation and renting the accommodation out for monthly fees;
- also notes that the community has raised their frustrations consistently with the municipality, but their petitions have fallen on deaf ears, as always;
- further notes that some of the families that have been evicted are child-headed households and they are evicted without alternative forms of accommodation;
- commends the fighters on the ground for putting the interest of the community forward to fight corruption and ensure access to decent housing; and
- calls on communities from every corner of the country to report corruption and illegal acts by greedy ANC councillors, everywhere it shows itself.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
HIGH FEES AT THUTO BOPHELA NURSING COLLEGE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes that students from poor communities are forced to pay more than R36 000 at Thuto Bophela Nursing College for their first auxiliary course;
- also notes that the college took a large number of students, more than their permissible intake and as a result, they are using the requirement for an additional payment of R16 000 and exams to reduce their numbers to a permissible intake for the second year;
- acknowledges that the mistake of the large intake was made by the college management, not the students and it is due to greed and commercialisation of education and training, which is wrong, as some are preying on desperate unemployed young people and their families to make quick money;
- calls on Thuto Bophela Nursing College to treat students with dignity and respect and not to rob them of their livelihoods, as some families are spending their last cent on their children’s education;
- also calls on government to reopen all nursing and teaching colleges that were closed post-1994 to take all students that are currently studying through private colleges and offer them free quality education; and
- further calls on all students to be vigilant when dealing with these private colleges, as the majority are just out to make quick cash without any quality education to speak of.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
THE GOLDEN LIONS WERE CROWNED 2015 CURRY CUP CHAMPIONS AT ELLIS PARK
(Draft Resolution)
Mr X MABASA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes that the Golden Lions were crowned 2015 Curry Cup champions after defeating the Western Province 32-24 in the final at Ellis Park on Saturday, 24 October 2015;
- recalls that the Lions side claimed the prize in emphatic style, winning all 12 of their matches and becoming the first side since the 1990s to go unbeaten in a season;
- further recalls that this is the Lions’ 11th Curry Cup title in their history;
- acknowledges that the Golden Lions put up a sterling performance and deserved to win against the Western Province;
- congratulates the Golden Lions on winning the Curry Cup; and
- wishes them the best in their future endeavours.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
RECENTLY RELEASED UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS BY STATISTICS SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Dr H CHEWANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes the recently released unemployment statistics by Statistics South Africa yesterday, which shows the increasing scourge of unemployment, now at 25%;
- further notes that unemployment remains the biggest threat to social and economic stability for South Africa and if not addressed urgently like the students and their fees—must-fall movement, the young, oppressed, unemployed and marginalised who joined the EFF in the Economic Freedom march in their thousands Tuesday will only be addressed and be taken seriously when mobile toilets and tires are burning in front of the Union Buildings.
- acknowledges that the much celebrated borrowed ANC youth wage subsidy from the racist DA failed dismally and it is time to consider state-led industrialization that will grow a sustainable economy and create decent jobs;
- also notes that as long as South Africa’s economy is dominated and controlled by white monopoly capital and multinational corporations, only profits and elicit financial flows will increase and not the economy or employment;
- calls on government to do away with tenders and high dependency on service providers and give young people tools, training, supervision and decent wages, instead of wasting money on tenders that only benefit those connected with the ANC leaders; and
- further calls on all companies to open their doors for young people to get training and skills to participate actively in the economy.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
PASSING OF MVUZO MBEBE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L A MNGCANGA-GCABASHE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
- notes with sadness the passing of Mvuzo Mbebe after a battle with cancer on Monday, 19 October at the Arwyp Medical Centre Private Hospital in Kempton Park;
- recalls that Mr Mbebe played an important role in the development of South African football, more so in the 2013 African Cup of Nations and African Nations Championship in the capacity of CEO of the local organising committee, as well as former SABC executive;
- acknowledges the pivotal role he has played over the years in contributing immensely to fighting racial segregation in sport during the apartheid era, as well as his outstanding role in administering and developing sport in the new democratic dispensation;
- believes that his death is indeed an enormous lost, not only to his family, but to the country as a whole; and
- conveys its condolences to his family, friends and relatives.
Motion without notice not agreed to.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have been advised that parties have agreed that declarations of vote will be limited to two minutes each, for the rest of the term and that this will apply as of today.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
There was no debate.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Declarations of vote:
Ms E R WILSON: House Chairperson, the DA supports the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, it is a true reflection of the current state of the department. However, the current state of the department is not a healthy one. In fact, if you follow the history of the department in the last couple of years, it is terminally ill and its entities need ICU. Only 67% of its targets were met; the department actually regressed on the 69% of targets met in 2014-15. While only 67% of targets were met, the department did manage, however, to spend 99% of its budget - an obvious disjuncture, to say the least. Where did the money go?
The Auditor-General, AG, recorded R17 million of irregular expenditure in the department. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, recorded an excess of R40 million and the National Development Agency, NDA, recorded R1,6 million of irregular expenditure, all being supply management process failures. Then we were advised that the department returned an excess of R1,4billion to the Treasury unspent. The nine Kwanda sites were not established and over 2000 graduate social workers have not been employed by the department because of insufficient funding, but R1,4 billion has been returned to the Treasury’s coffers. An equivalent of R1 million a month was spent on foreign travel alone, but there is insufficient funding for social workers.
The Sassa is now the South African seriously sick agency. The AG advised that interventions were required in five of the six key risk areas and they did not comply with legislation in five of the six audited areas. The AG also recorded an excess of R5 million, in fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The NDA left us confused. [Time expired.]
Ms N P SONTI: The EFF rejects the adoption of the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report from the Portfolio Committee on Social Development. The Department of Social Development has a constitutional mandate to provide sector-wide national leadership in social development by developing and implementing programmes for eradication of poverty, social protection and development amongst the poorest of the poor. But the reality on the ground points to the corrupt use of this department by the ANC to further its political objectives by providing food parcels to poor South Africans during election time.
Over and above these issues, the Auditor-General has raised concerns about unmitigated culture of irregular expenditure in this department. Among the factors that the AG mentioned is the fact that management did not prepare regular, accurate and complete financial and performance reports that are supported and evidenced by reliable information. The corruption in this department directly comes from the outsourcing of key functions such as the provision of grants. The department should have offices in every town or village to facilitate the payment of social grants and must not rely on service providers to do so.
The department cannot be trusted with ensuring the wellbeing of the millions of poor South Africans. The Minister is shameless in using the resources of this department for narrow political aims. She is more concerned about leading marches against the paintings of the President’s private parts instead of fighting for the social wellbeing of our people. We reject this report. Thank you.
Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, the annual review of the work of government presents us with the opportunity to face reality. Our reality being the fact that South Africa is plagued by unprecedented levels of poverty and inequality. This places a severe burden on the Department of Social Development. Against this background, the IFP wishes to emphasise a number of pressing issues. Firstly, we believe that more must be done to fight gender-based violence; we don’t need statistics to tell us that our current efforts are insufficient. But social development cannot carry this burden alone and we need a great synergy between the different government departments.
It is our view that the critical shortage of social workers in our country requires additional funding in line with the Minister’s vision of one social worker per ward, which is now non-negotiable. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, beneficiaries, the most vulnerable sectors of our society, continue to fall prey to loan sharks and even family members who rob them of their livelihoods. Loopholes that allow for illegal grant deduction must be closed through legislation.
In addition, the plight of people with disabilities remains a great concern. Many children with disabilities are excluded from the schooling system while most government departments are failing to meet their own minimum target of the employment of people with disabilities. This status quo can no longer be allowed to continue.
Finally, more must be done to curb substance abuse. We must ensure that every child is able to access education at a young age through Early Childhood Development, ECD, centres and nonprofit organisations, NPOs, that provide vital services on behalf of the state must be empowered both through necessary skills and greater financial support. The challenges that the Auditor-General has identified must not only be acknowledged but they must be resolved without delay. The IFP supports this report and the recommendations tabled. Thank you.
Ms R N CAPA: Hon Chair and the House at large, it gives me pleasure to state today in South Africa that the Department of Social Development has achieved a clean audit during this current year and previous years and I congratulate them for that. [Applause.] I also want to inform the House that the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, as well as other countries have applauded the fact that we do so much in South Africa in caring for the poor and the marginalised.
I must also say that this department is strong and engaged in a full-time fight against corruption that originates from all corners of life, whether from the communities or officials. It is a matter they demonstrated in their presentations which were adopted and applauded by all members of the portfolio committee. But to come here and grandstand and behave as if this budget was never thoroughly interrogated before being adopted ... We did interrogate this budget and this department is 100% healthy. Those who are doubting-Thomases must try once again, but not now.
This department and all its entities have achieved a clean audit and it has also expelled almost 60% of people who were involved in corruption. This is what was presented, this is what we know and this is what we stand for. We congratulate the Minister for doing excellent work in addressing the poor. Thank you very much.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY
There was no debate.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Declarations of votes:
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Hon House Chairperson, you will recall that last week when the adjustment budget was tabled, hon Matswane from the DA objected to the process through which the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, were dealt with by the committee.
We added our voice to that objection in the Trade and Industry Committee because the BRRR was only dealt with the day before the adjustment budget was tabled. This meant that there was absolute no prospect of the Minister having had the opportunity to read or internalise or to agree with anything that was said in the report - which have reduced the BRRR process to something of a box ticking exercise.
Nevertheless, if one looks at the adjustment budget with regards to the DTI, one will see that the DTI budget consist mainly of a series of very significant business incentive programmes, the biggest of which as we know is the automotive incentive programme.
In his adjustment budget speech, the Minister noted that for the first time a whole array of frontline services will have to be cut to fund the above-inflation salary increases of the civil service and the same is true in the DTI.
For the first time frontline incentive programmes, the flagship programmes of the DTI will receive less money or in fact in one case, no money. The programme will be cut altogether so as to be able to afford the above-inflation salary increases in the department.
Yesterday we received news following the budget that the Manufacturing Competiveness Enhancement Programme will be cut altogether - one of the DTI flagship project to assist businesses and investing in new machinery. So, we are left with the bizarre situation where we have more staff in the department paid ever higher salaries left to deliver fewer services to the business community of South Africa. For that reason, we object to the budget and the report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms H O HLOPHE: Hon House Chair, we reject this report for the following reason, central to the economic freedom march that was attended by more than 50 000 people yesterday, the message is clear; it’s straight forward. [Interjections.] As long as South Africa’s economy is continued to be led by white capital monopoly and multinational corporations, who now have the ANC leaders in their pocket - it does not matter how much foreign direct investment it will attract as a country, the economy will not grow, you like it or not. South Africa will fail to industrialise and a scourge of inequality and unemployment will be as usual in most communities.
The state must stop sitting on the sidelines hoping multinational corporations and capital will come around to assist with the developmental objectives of South Africa. This is not going to happen. It is only the state-led industrialisation with a coherent and well co-ordinated group of state-owned entities that will make the DTI have a meaningful role to play to build a sustainable economy that will give us jobs with decent pay.
What is compounding? The purpose of the BRRR, not only with the Portfolio Committee of Trade and Industry, but also with other committees, is the fact that the exercises are done just to tick boxes. There is no effort to understand problems analytically and therefore recommendations made are redundant.
The meaning and purpose of this reports are not being adopted in the House with the spirit of contributing to allocation of limited resources. Instead, it is now reduced to a by-the-way exercise which does not assist the committee members to contribute. Draft report are prepared and sent to members with only 19 hours before the reports are considered for adoption by the committee.
The department has failed to develop mechanisms to ensure that 75% of public procurement is of the designated product to drive local economy but the current figure is not even close to 50% and the report is failing to stand and put forward the recommendations ... [Time expired.] We reject the adoption of this report. You can scream! [Interjections.]
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon House Chair, it is imperative that our ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, you will caucus outside, thank you.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon House Chair, it is imperative that our economic growth be led by our consumption-driven sectors which are growing twice as fast as the production sectors. However, the Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap, which located the innovation of the National Development Plan, is based on the need to bring about significant and sustainable structure and not consumption-driven sectors to the South African economy. The exchange rate is at 0,5% increase for May this year, for the first time in many months, which is extremely important, not only for the DTI but for South Africa as a whole.
Exports should and must the priority and this contributes to our labour intensive value-added economy activity in the production sector, led by the mining and downstream manufacturing and engineering. We need more intensive or more intense incentives to commit to private sector into supporting local manufacturers as government just did with the steel industry.
We also feel that the tax incentives must be advertise more aggressively and this will require a bigger budget. Another concern is the volatile and overvalued exchange rate and the quest to improve exports. The same can be said of the high costs and inefficiencies at ports that are associated with freight and logistic systems.
The DTI and its entities are committed to improving trade and investment relations in South Africa and must do so through the creation of fair regulatory environment and not through a host of laws and regulations that could hamper doing just that.
In accepting this report the IFP in plain English wants to see more character than a list from the department in order to build the fully diversities globally competitive manufacturing sector to support the most important labour-absorbing growth and social stability in this country. I thank you.
Ms J L FUBBS: Hon House Chair, may I say at the outset that the ANC support this report. There are a couple of sayings; one agrees with some of the points made and disagrees with others. But in many instances it’s due to a lack of information – people keeping up to date, too busy on social.
With respect to the Manufacturing Competitive Enhancement Programme. This programme was so successful, R5 billion having been originally allocated and set aside, then the R5 billion was exhausted far sooner than had been projected. If anything the DTI had underestimated is the success of the programme. What has happened now is that indeed the DTI has had to suspend this ... [Interjections.] ... No, for the moment, that is unfortunate. I am not sure what papers you are reading but this is a Medium-Term Expenditure Framework for three years... [Interjections.] ... and in April 2016, this is likely to continue. I say likely because I am not a prophetess. [Laughter.]
There was 1 153 entities with acquisition of capital equipment and re-engineering of business processes to improve their competitiveness and so on. We made only two recommendations and the ANC supports both. There is one to deal with the strengthening of the incentive programmes and the other to deal with low-income people. [Interjections.]
There is going to be the expedition of the introduction of regulations related to credit life insurance on the maximum interest rate that this co-operations, which want to milk our people ... [Time expired.] ... and to protect them. Thank you to DTI for ... [Interjections.]
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
Consideration of budgetary review and recommendation report of portfolio committee on basic education
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the report be adopted.
Declarations of vote:
Mr G R DAVIS: House Chairperson, in the past two weeks the attention of our nation has been rightly focused on the issue of university fees. In raising their voices, the students have forced government to finally address their plight. But, in the background stand the silent majority. They are the millions of young – mainly black South Africans who don’t finish school, let alone university. Of the learners who entered Grade 1 in 2003, only 36% passed matric last year. And just 14% qualified for admission to university.
And here is another uncomfortable statistic: Only 12% of black South Africans enter higher education, compared to 60% of whites. This explains the Statistics SA’s report last year, which found that the proportion of black youth in skilled employment actually regressed between 1994 and 2014.
House Chairperson, the truth is that if you are a black child born into a poor household, the odds of getting a decent education and building a career are stacked very firmly against you. It is all well and good to stand here and discuss targets, audits and what boxes have been ticked. But be warned:
There is a crisis brewing in this country, which is far graver than the issue of university fees. And that is the failure of our school system to give every child access to a quality education.
Government needs to act now, before it is too late. We need a bold new plan that gives every child the chance of a better life. The DA objects to the Report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr H CHEWANE: The EFF rejects the adoption of this Budget Review and Recommendations Report, BRRR, from the basic education portfolio committee. South Africa is facing an education crisis and this crisis will blow up in our faces soon enough because we have a political leadership that is either unable to grasp the severity of the crisis or simply unwilling to provide decisive leadership. This BRRR is not breaking new ground in the analysis of the problem and the intervention it proposes for basic education.
South Africa has the worse education system of all the middle income countries that participated in cross national assessment of the education achievement. Of 100 pupils that start school only 50 make it to Grade 12, and 40 pass only 12 qualify for university; and those between 18-year-olds and 24-year-olds who do not acquire some form of post secondary education are at a distinct of economic disadvantage; and not only struggle to find full-time employment but also have one of the highest probabilities of being unemployed for a sustained period of time or permanently.
However, the reality is that even though the BRRR claims that 99% of the learner and teacher support material was delivered this time this year thousands of schools in rural provinces like Limpopo, Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga and the North West spent the first quarter of the year without necessary learner material. There are evident that the department’s Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi, programme has failed to ensure the provision of proper infrastructure to rural schools in particular, which still remain without proper toilets, without libraries and other necessities for basic education.
We need a solution for these crisis and these are the solutions: There must be a universal access to libraries; and computer laboratories in all registered South African schools; no child should ever study under a tree; only qualified teachers should be appointed; the South African Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, must not be given powers to appoint or fire teachers as they seem to do at the current moment; there must be an immediate implementation of the norms and standards for basic education; the department must make a follow up on all kids who drop out of school. Thank you. [Applause.]
Prof C T MSIMANG: House Chair, our basic education sector in desperate need of an improvement in the quality of teaching and learning through the provision of adequate quality infrastructure and learning and teaching support materials. But the sad fact of this matter is that support material never arrives in time to many of our schools. Schools eventually resort to photocopying the learning support materials so that teaching is not delayed.
Shortages of skilled teachers in the language medium of Afrikaans are a recurring problem in the province of the Eastern Cape and the quality learner performance in the subjects of mathematics and physical science remains extremely poor. The standards required by students to successfully bridge the gap between the basic and higher education are in many instances an unreachable reality, and this can only be viewed as colossal departmental failure.
We are simply failing the learners of this country through inadequate basic education infrastructure, unskilled or too few teachers. This department has a mammoth task ahead of it if it is to arrest and overcome its many and varied challenges. Decisive leadership coupled with sound administration must be the order of the day. The proper education of our youth is not negotiable; the department through the Minister must ensure that it occurs. The IFP supports this report. Thank you.
Ms C N MAJEKE: Speaker, hon Ministers and hon members, the provision of qualitative basic education is not an isolated matter from the general and overall need to need to provide qualitative and accessible education to the nation; in consistent with section 29(1)(a) of the Constitution.
It is also part of resolving the triple challenge confronting the nation. Accordingly the UDM would like to drive home the following policy matters: the fact that the Early Childhood Development is not part of basic education system is compromising quality; more so given the cognitive development process of a child, in this regard we repeat the call to integrate the stage within the main stream of education. Our basic education system must interface with the higher education and be tailor made to serve the market. This is not only important but also urgent; because the failure of our school system is central to our failure to provide for the need of the labour markets; to increase social mobility and to reduce income inequality.
In supporting this report, the UDM further calls for the department to cut its high catering budget in favour of funding school infrastructure programme driven through Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi, also finalise the teacher profiling by the end of the current financial year and report to Parliament at the beginning of the 2016-17 financial year.
Lastly, penalise all officials who fail to pay service providers within the government policy turnaround time of 30 days. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N GINA: Chairperson, the portfolio committee would like to commend the department for getting the unqualified audit opinion this year and also looking at the provincial audit outcomes this year as a committee what we observed is that there is great improvement where we have seen a number of provinces improving in their audit outcomes where we moved from five to six with unqualified and also two with qualified with finding. We are also concerned with one of the provinces, Limpopo, which keeps on getting disclaimer even with the interventions that have been made. That is one of our recommendations as the committee to say that the department needs to go closer to the provincial department in Limpopo so that we can see how the province can be rescued from what is happening there.
On the issues of service delivery, the department again has done a lot. The majority the targets have been achieved, and as a committee we are very much pleased with the progress on the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi, programme. All the targets have been met in such a way that the project is continuing in a manner that it even surpass the targets that have been placed and making a threat on the issues of finance when it comes to that project. That is one of the recommendations that we have come up with to say that we want to see the project of the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi, being well looked after so that we can be in a position to improve that and also make sure that the department deliver on the national development plan as it is targeted.
However, yes in the report we do even touch on some of the challenges, like when it comes to Maths Grade 9, but again, as a committee we were very pleased with some of the programmes that the department has come up with, like 1+4 where the department is trying by all means to improve that. As the ANC we support the BRR Report. [Time expired.] Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The motion is that the report be adopted. Are there any objections?
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move:
That the report be adopted.
Declaration(s) of vote:
Nkul S M GANA: Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi nga si nghena ngopfu eka mbulavulo wa mina, ndzi lava ku vula leswaku hi ri vandla ra DA hi seketela xiviko lexi xa Ndzawulo ya Matshamelo ya Vanhu. Hambileswi hi seketelaka xiviko lexi, ku na swin’wana leswi ku fanelaka ku vulavuriwa hi swona mayelana na leswi ndzawulo yi nga tirhisa xiswona eka lembeximali leri hi humaka eka rona. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[Mr S M GANA: Chairperson, before I go any further with my speech, I want to indicate that we as the DA support this report by the Department of Human Settlements. Whilst we support this report, there are certain issues that need to be pointed out with regard to how the department has performed in the previous financial year.]
When one looks at the Department of Human Settlements, one can sum it as a department that really knows how to spend the money. However, the delivery does not match the money that is being spent. For example, 98% of the money for building houses was spent, but only 84% of the houses were built. From a target of 112 000, 96 000 houses were built, and there is a shortfall of 17 000. If you look at an average South African family, we are talking about 63 000 people that could have been housed as a result of this shortfall. Above that, R775 million was spent on rectifying houses that were built incorrectly. I am glad that the ANC today moved a motion that we debate it. This thing is robbing a lot of our people adequate housing and I would support that the motion pass through.
One of the things that it’s a big worry is that of the target of the title deeds. Only 34% of the newly built Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses were given title deeds. That is like 34% achievement rate that even the Department of Education where we come from would have faired the department on that score. It is something that really worries us and we do hope that going forward the department will look at issues of breaking new ground, BNG, housing, title deeds and informal settlement updates. As the DA we do support this budget. Thank you very much. Ndza khensa. [I thank you.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, the EFF rejects the adoption of this budget and recommendations by the portfolio committee. It must be noted that the EFF will neither come to this House nor to the portfolio committees and support the ANC propaganda because they use their majority in the portfolio committees and in this House to pass through some issues that are, in fact, not suitable for our own people, for instance, the housing projects that this department is pushing through.
The budget review and recommendation report for this department and its entities make mockery not only of the role of Parliament and its process, but also of the legislation that guides the process of budget review and recommendation thereafter.
The EFF, as I said, rejects the budget. The report has nothing to suggest that the country is actually facing human settlement and housing crisis. AS a matter of fact, every budget that is passed through this House that suggest to undermine our people, we will forever reject it.
Many South Africans today are roaming in the streets and are homeless, let to settle in houses that are not suitable for occupation, but the ANC want us to come here and adopt such budgets. The report even makes reference to incorrect economic growth. What is alarming however is the fact that this department continue to spend billions year in and year out, but targets are never achieved and houses are never delivered. Majority do not have access to decent houses and sanitation. In cases where the department ... [Time expired.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, just to put a disclaimer that hon Sithole who is serving in this committee is not feeling well. On behalf of the IFP, I would like to make the following submissions. This year has seen a steady decline in the delivery of housing to people of South Africa by the Department of Human Settlements. The departmental underspending in the provinces of Gauteng, Limpopo, Western Cape, and the overspending in the Eastern Cape province on ratification, must be decisively dealt with moving forward. In terms of the dire need for housing in South Africa, every resource allocated must be utilised to the maximum. Stiff penalties should be put in place for provincial departments that underspend, overspend or are engaged in reckless and wasteful expenditure.
We can no longer afford to continue in this way and we can no longer afford to get it wrong. Internally, the department seems to be in chaos. There is no stability. There are 106 current vacancies at senior level as well as many acting positions of senior officials and this is evidence of a department in disarray. Without proper management structures in place one can never expect to balance this budget. The shifting of funds between provinces is also a clear evidence of poor planning and we have mentioned this as well that failing to plan is planning to fail. The result being slow service delivery as is the case currently.
Of great concern though is the ongoing failure by the department to formulate and establish policy as regards to hostel developments. Our hostels are not fit for animals and are in dire need of up keep and maintenance and all we are receiving from the department is silence. The problem therefore will not go away even if the Minister pretends that it’s not there. We need to start to take this issue seriously and deal with it. Having raised these issues and hoping that they will be addressed, the IFP will support this budget report. Thank you very much.
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, judging by the long list of recommendations contained in the report tabled here today, one can safely conclude that the Portfolio Committee on Human Settlement have thoroughly interrogated the various reports upon which these recommendations are based. It is also possible to conclude that the long list of recommendations suggests that the Department of Human Settlements is falling short of the expected performance for such a crucial state department.
The provision of housing speaks to the basic needs of all human beings and South Africa has made significant strides during the past 21 years in providing affordable houses for those who had been denied such a basic need by the apartheid government. The question remains however, whether the government is delivering the quantity and quality that is capable of. The answer sadly is, no. The overall performance of the department based on the approved annual performance plan 2014-15, is 70%. That means, out of the 146 approved annual targets, 102 were achieved, but 44 were not achieved. Are we to be satisfied with the 70% delivery rate where we could have had 100%? Again the answer is sadly, no.
We still have no policy on the backyard dwellers and the White Paper on Human Settlements still remains an intention only. Why is the Department of Human Settlements dragging its feet on these two critical issues which are crucial for the review and development of housing and human settlement policies? When we look at the list of the recommendations, one face keep on recurring, fast-track, fast-track. It is fast-track this and fast-track that, over and over again.
The department seemingly is slow to implement programmes and processes developed to enhance and expedite service delivery. When we look surprised ... [Time expired.]
Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, we are here dealing with the Department of Human Settlements, but the irony is that the content of this report is most unsettling. There is no report on expenditure on farm dwellers. This is supposed to change the lives of those people and improve the quality of their household lifestyle. This report is presented against the backdrop of a poorly performing economy, a situation that calls for over reliance by the poor citizens of this country on government to provide housing. On the other hand, the cost of building has gone up by around 7%, with inflation flying at over 6%. A shrinking government budget consumed by the above mentioned factors spells disaster for those who rely on government for this basic need called housing - mark that.
This situation has been compounded by widespread underexpenditure as mentioned by my colleagues who have just been here, in provinces like Limpopo, Gauteng and others, and also in the area of programme delivery support services where only 70% was spent. This is exacerbated by the situation that there is fruitless, wasteful and unauthorised expenditure over three years.
The report is supported though by the UDM just for the sake of the poor on the basis of the committee’s recommendation. On that basis we would say, yes, it can go through because if we say, no, then the poor could only get poorer by the minute. But be warned, repetitive wasteful expenditure is costly to the poor citizens of this country. You are committing social crime by doing that, be warned. Thank you.
Ms N N MAFU: House Chair, the ANC supports this budget, but we are aware that this report takes place against the backdrop of the reality that many people still live in poor conditions without access to basic services in a proliferation of marginalised informal settlements as a result of poor planning and socio ecogeospatial dislocations of apartheid legacy. These informal settlements are located far from economic opportunities and in many instances without access to water, sanitation facilities and refuse removal. Therefore, the portfolio committee take stock of some of these challenges as it provides the context within which the Department of Human Settlements and its entities operate.
Through its oversight, the Portfolio Committee on Human Settlement recorded the following key observations which are in the report. One of the things that we want to note is that the department has received an unqualified audit for three years in a row. However, what is concerning is that similar previous financial adverse findings have been recorded and we want to therefore say that the department needs to improve its accountability and compliance. We also note that the spending patterns as on August 2015, show that the department has -5,3% deviation from the norm, which means it has improved its spending. We also note that there is a decline in complete houses that have been built. There is lack of technical and operational capacity for programmes and project planning and implementation as well as monitoring. There is a lack of adequate pipeline planning and signage between the department, provinces and municipalities. Therefore, we have made recommendations and we support the report.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at18:23.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1. The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Report of the Commission on Gender Equality (CGE) on the Site Visit to the Chatsworth Refugee Shelter – July 2015.
2. The Minister of Transport
- Bilateral Air Service Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Sudan, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
- Explanatory Memorandum to the Bilateral Air Service Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Sudan.
National Assembly
1. The Speaker
(a) Reply from the Minister of Small Business Development to recommendations in the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development, as adopted by the House on 18 November 2014.
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development.
- Reply from the Minister of Finance to recommendations in Report of Standing Committee on Appropriations on Oversight Visit to Eastern Cape from 2 to 6 February 2015, as adopted by the House on 24 June 2015.
Referred to the Standing Committee on Appropriations.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
Please see page 4651 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4651-4682 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4683-4702 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4702-4727 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4728-4751 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4751-4797 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4797-4848 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4848-4871 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4872-4899 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4899-4941 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4941-4964 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4964-4997 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 4997-5038 of the ATCs.
Please see pages 5038-5097 of the ATCs.
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