Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 19 Nov 2015
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
THURSDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 2015
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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THE SPEAKER: The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I don’t want to interrupt the President after you called him to the podium, so, I wondered if I could address you in terms of Rule 106.
On 11 November, the Leader of the Opposition wrote a request to the President, asking him to make a statement in the House, clarifying a stance on the new VIP aircraft. To date, we have not received a response to that letter and we believe it is in the nation’s interest. While the President is in the House, we wondered whether you would be able to put to him whether he is prepared to make a statement, clarifying his government’s stance on that particular matter. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I believe a response to the letter was sent to your offices, but the Table Office is prepared to send you another copy of the same letter. [Interjections.] The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, would you be able to let us know whether that was a positive or a negative response? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, I would not. I won’t be able to.
The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the President. Of course, hon members may press the talk button on their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC:
Details regarding need for review of institutional autonomy with regard to tertiary education institutions
19. Mr F Z Majola (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
What are the relevant details of his statements about the centrality of the need for a review of institutional autonomy in the context of public accountability and that institutional autonomy has a material influence on the ability of the Government to take decisions with regard to the transformation of tertiary education institutions? NO4778E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Can you please provide guidance to the people in the gallery that they are not allowed to partake in the proceedings here, because I think we might have a problem with them interrupting us, moving forward. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Ndlozi. We would like to always remind our guests that guests sitting in the gallery are welcome to watch the proceedings and to follow, but not to, in any way, be part of what is going on by clapping or any other way of participation in the actual substance of what goes on in the House.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, government recently introduced a Higher Education and Training Laws Amendment Bill in Parliament, which addresses the question of institutional autonomy. The recent student protests over the increase of fees at universities brought the issue into sharp focus. A question has been raised about the extent to which government should work more intensively with universities to ensure that the developmental and transformation goals of the country are met and how they’ll be dealing with decisions regarding that.
In the meeting I had with university stakeholders on 23 October 2015 at the Union Buildings, we all committed to ongoing discussions on institutional autonomy and the other related matters of transformation. As announced recently, I’m also establishing a commission to look at higher education transformation, funding, living conditions and related matters. We need to get the balance right between autonomy and public accountability, while still promoting democratic freedom, which is enshrined in the Constitution.
Government invests public resources to ensure that institutions contribute to national development goals and this has to be met by a degree of accountability to the South African public. While accountability mechanisms exist already, enabling oversight by the Department of Higher Education and Training, it is clear that such mechanisms need to be streamlined and improved.
The objectives of the Higher Education and Training Laws Amendment Bill include the following: to ensure alignment and consistency with the administrative law provisions of the Constitution; to address matters pertaining to institutional autonomy, public accountability and co-operative governance; to create mechanisms for expansion and differentiation of higher education institutions through institutional types; and to clarify the rights of private higher education institutions, in compliance with section 29 of the Constitution.
Therefore, the Bill provides an opportunity for a discussion on this question of autonomy by affected stakeholders and the public.
The Department of Higher Education and Training is also currently, in consultation with the sector, developing sets of indicators on financial health, governance, performance and transformation. The goal is to use these indicators to align the autonomy and diversification of universities with accountability and the effective management of these institutions. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr F Z MAJOLA: Hon Speaker, thank you, President, for what even the opposition should agree is a very comprehensive reply. [Interjections.] Once again, thank you very much for granting our students a zero percent increase for the 2016 academic year. [Interjections.] Hon President, would you please clarify whether this new Bill would interfere with academic freedom? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the new Bill will not interfere with academic freedom. I think, as I’ve just read it, it talks about balancing the autonomy and the public accountability, whilst at the same time, dealing with the issue of transformation and the universities’ roles. It does not, at all, interfere. If anything, it enhances that relationship. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker, Mr President, a few weeks ago I asked the Deputy President the questions I’m about to ask. Hopefully, I will get a better response from you than I did from him.
The zero fee percent increment, had students not gone on the protest, would not have materialised, because the issue of free education was not at all on government’s radar. It took a protest for government to actually respond. In the first instance, the zero percent fee increment does not address the immediate concerns of the students, which is that “fees must fall”. It’s not that there should not be an increase. So, you have made this pronouncement in the absence of any concrete plans, without any vision. So, the question is: Where does the money come from for all of this. At the end of the day, somebody must pay and ultimately, it is the taxpayer.
Secondly, Minister Nzimande then quipped and said that “students must fall”. Is that how government is taking students? The Minister of state, so senior, quipped that “students must fall”. I would want to hear the comments of the President in that regard, because those comments were insensitive and devolved the realities confronting students on the ground.
However, your zero fee percent increment on the surface of it is a PR exercise in the absence of concrete plans of how education is going to be funded freely. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I don’t think I will go to other issues that the hon member has asked, which perhaps relate to his own experience when he was asking the question from the Deputy President. I think the critical point is that we had a meeting with representatives of the students as well as the representatives of the institutions of Higher learning. We discussed all the matters that needed to be discussed, whilst the protest was still going on.
We, sitting in the same meeting, took very specific decisions. One, there will be zero rise of fees next year. That was very important because that is what sparked the protest. We then agreed that all other matters raised in the meeting will be gone into by the commission I talked about that I am in the process of establishing. They will deal with all of those issues that were raised and the matter of 2016 is being addressed. The issue of zero fees is not going to affect the start of next year. That matter is being handled and I think the Minister of Higher Education has said something about that matter. So, that matter is being addressed. There will be no rise indeed. There will be money to pay. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, Mr President, the idea of institutional autonomy comes into being to protect section 16 (1)(d) of the Constitution, which speaks about academic freedom. The fear why we give institutions institutional autonomy is because we are trying to guarantee and safeguard the value of academic freedom. What is your view on academic freedom in relation to institutional autonomy?
Lastly - you did not respond properly earlier on - what is your view and how will academic freedom, which is a constitutional right of universities and institutions of higher learning, be balanced with institutional autonomy? Secondly, what is the political attitude?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is your third question.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Are you going to give students fee-free universities or not? I know there is a commission, but what is the political attitude. Are you going to give students fee-free universities or not?
THE PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, firstly, on the issue of the academic freedom, I think all of us have agreed that you need academic freedom, as enshrined in the Constitution and that freedom is important for education. We have also said that there must be autonomy of the institutions of higher learning so that they can do their work without much interference.
What we are saying is that - that matter is one of the matters that have been raised by the students very strongly – autonomy will be looked at by the commission. It is one of the matters that we will look at. I am sure that there will be a very specific recommendation on that matter that we will have to look at when the commission reports.
If you asked me politically, my own view, there is no autonomy that could be absolute. It is relative. Everything is relative. [Interjections.] That must be found through balancing because it must be balanced. You can’t have an autonomy that is absolute and that is not relative. That is a very important political point. We are asking therefore: How do we balance these two. [Applause.] Without giving instructions to the commission, we will hear that when they do their work and when they report what they are saying about those matters.
With regard to the matter of free university education, I am sure you will recall that the matter of free education is a policy of the ruling party. That is our policy. [Applause.] It has been established decades ago. [Interjections.] We have tried to begin to implement it. That is why, at the lower levels, there are schools that are free from fees, as part of the implementation of that policy.
What we have not done is to say, from today, education is free. However, we have said that that is our goal; we have started the implementation. [Applause.] Poor students or young people from poor families are no longer paying up to matric. That is part of the implementation of the policy.
With regard to the institutions of higher learning, that is a matter we have been looking into and the department has been looking into it and has actually set up a commission or a grouping to deal with the matter and investigate it. There is even a report that has been written on that issue to say how we should implement this. That report, for an example, will be taken in consideration by the commission. What I am happy about is that, for the first time, in the country, everybody agreed with the ANC policy that there must be free education. [Applause.] Wonderful!
Dr H CHEWANE: Speaker, on a point of order: [Interjections.] According to the list of people captured by your secretariat who are supposed to ask questions, it was one, hon Hlengwa; two, hon Ndlozi; three, hon Shivambu, four, hon Chewane. I went there and saw it. I am not ...
The SPEAKER: No. Hon member, take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: I can verify it. [Interjections.] You can ask your secretariat.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I have the list that you are referring to. Please, take your seat. [Interjections.]
Dr H CHEWANE: Are we going to follow that list?
The SPEAKER: Take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: No, I need clarity. I need clarity. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I am saying, take your seat. There is a long list of EFF names. I am now calling the next party. I am not going to call EFF members before I call another party. Hon member, take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: What is the point in saying ...
The SPEAKER: Take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: I need clarity from you, Speaker. Can I get clarity from you?
The SPEAKER: No.
Dr H CHEWANE: What is the point in you asking us to press buttons if we wish to ask questions?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, if you have a programme to disrupt, you should be very ... [Interjections.]
Dr H CHEWANE: But Speaker, ...
The SPEAKER: Please, take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: Speaker, you need to give us clarity on this question. Can I continue to address you? Can I get indulgence? Can I get guidance from you?
The SPEAKER: My guidance is that you should take your seat.
Dr H CHEWANE: No, the question that I to ask ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, Speaker, on a point of order:
The SPEAKER: You are not hon Kubisa, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am rising on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: In terms of the procedure that we use in this House, the leverage to skip the names that are on your list, you have to allow us ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, we are actually doing it all the time in the Chair.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is illegal.
The SPEAKER: We exercise ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... [Interjections.] ... If we are going to choose party by party, let us just ... [Interjections.] ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU:... ensure that, in the next question, you note all the other parties as well. You don’t want him to answer questions. You are skipping us because you don’t want him to be accountable here. You are choosing your allied NFP and we do not know for what reasons. [Interjections.]
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, hon President, it is clear that the issue of academic freedom is enshrined in the Constitution and of course, there are those institutions that have used institutional autonomy to entrench discrimination and inequality. What is your view with regard to those institutions that are entrenching discrimination with regard to gender, language and access?
Secondly, now that the year has come to a close, and you have raised the expectations of students with zero increase, can we get the tangibles, the timeframes as to when we will get funding when students start, noting the fact that there is always a problem with the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NFAS? Students don’t get the money to pay for the studies when they open. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, firstly, the issue of autonomy that has been abused to entrench wrong tendencies is going to be addressed by the commission, as some of the issues that will be addressed. Therefore, in the process of the work of the commission, it will find ways and means to balance that autonomy. However, the reason why we are saying that autonomy and public accountability should be balanced is precisely to deal with those matters. There is evidence that there were institutions that abused the issue of the autonomy. That matter is going to be addressed by the commission.
With regard to the matter of what happens early next year, I answered the question by saying that the Minister has addressed that issue. There is money to ensure that there is zero rise in the fees. There will be money to pay for that when the schools open early next year. I cannot give the details now. That matter is being worked on by the department. That is the answer to your question. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, before I move us to Question 20, I just wish to remind you of Rule 113(7), which talks about time allotted and time limits. It is the Rule dealing with supplementary questions. It says: “A supplementary question may not consist of more than one question.”
Position regarding potential compromise of free and fair local government elections in 2016
20. Mr M A MNCWANGO: (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether, in light of his statement on 10 May 2014 (details furnished), that the Electoral Commission successfully maintained its track record of running successful free and fair elections, he has found that free and fair local government elections in 2016, including the independence of the Electoral Commission, will be compromised if the Commission appoints election officers from organisations such as the SA Democratic Teachers Union who stated in their Provincial Executive Committee statement of 14 September 2015 (details furnished) their interest to ensure that a certain political organisation (name furnished) wins back all the wards; if not, what is the basis of his finding; if so, what is his position in this regard? NO4756E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC, has clear criteria for the selection and recruitment of officers. The primary obligations of electoral officers, as contained in the Electoral Act, are that they must be impartial and exercise their powers and perform their duties independently, without fear, favour or prejudice. The officer must be able to perform his or her functions without favouring one party or candidate over another. The recruitment process is subjected to extensive consultation with political parties before it is approved and used in any election. The names and details of all officers are distributed to all political parties. Parties that wish to object to the appointment of persons, who they believe do not qualify for appointment in view of agreed criteria, have an opportunity to do so.
Hon members will recall that when these processes were undertaken in preparation for the last general elections, party liaison committees across the country were convened and all objections raised were conclusively dealt with. No more than 120 objections were received by the IEC to the approximately 200 000 electoral officers employed in that election. In instances in which an objection was upheld, the affected persons were removed from any further consideration or participation in the election.
It is clear therefore that our country’s electoral system has checks and balances, which create the necessary conditions for impartiality as well as free and fair elections. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you, hon President. Hon President, in the interests of free and fair elections, one cannot simply permit the overtly ruling-party-aligned Sadtu, the SA Democratic Teachers Union, to oversee voting stations as electoral officers in and around the country. A classic example of bias and partisanship occurred in Nongoma - my area - in 2013 during a by-election, when a Sadtu-aligned IEC presiding officer refused to count special votes that were cast. After being taken to court, the votes were then counted and their inclusion made a material difference to the outcome of that by-election. Do you not agree, then, hon President, that in order for free and fair elections to take place in 2016 and beyond, Sadtu members, whose publicly stated policy is to ensure that the ANC wins the election, should not be allowed to preside over what should be a politically neutral space? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I am happy that the hon member says that when the matter arose it was attended to and dealt with, because that is what needs to happen. I think, in what the member was saying, there was no conclusion or decision that because this member came from Sadtu, which happens to share a particular political view, that those matters were not factored into the decision ... because that kind of matter was not an issue to be looked at.
Now, if you ask for my views about what should happen, I think you are dealing with a country that has a Constitution, which gives rights to every individual to be employed in any institution. When they are employed in institutions there is nothing that says you should check the political affiliation. The political affiliation does not necessarily make every member of any party biased. [Interjections.] That is why political people work in different kinds of institutions, because there is no constitution that will deprive some citizens from doing certain duties that can be done by other citizens. If a person is political and is using his or her political beliefs to interfere, then we take action, because it means that person can’t control him or herself. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon President, I put it to you that it is actually naïve to expect neutrality from Sadtu members. We all know that. We can put on a straight face here in Parliament, but we know exactly what they do. The situation is that evidence has come through that after all the party agents have submitted the figures, it’s with the people in charge of the station - who release the figures - where corruption takes place: They change the figures at that stage because of their affiliation. What steps have you got in mind to obviate this? It’s not a perception; it’s something that actually happens. What specific steps have you got to obviate this? That is my question. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, to have people, who have the right given to them by the Constitution, carry out certain tasks, if they are appointed to do so, is not naïve. It’s what happens here. If you are saying that people who have political views must not do this, it means we’ll have to import people from outside during the elections. Well, there is no citizen who does not vote ... who has the views to support them. [Interjections.] So you can’t discriminate against other members. As I said earlier, if you have a case against an individual, deal with that case. You can’t generalise and have a general rule, not at all. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Nksz H O HLOPHE: Somlomo, Mongameli ngesonto eledlule la ngolwesine Isekela lakho uMhlonishwa u-Cyril Ramaphosa, simbuza ngenkulumo yakho oyenze laphaya kwi-ANC Provincial Conference KwaZulu-Natal ukuthi uthe: “i-ANC comes first and South Africa comes later.” Wathi empendulweni yakhe: “cha, South Africa comes first and ANC comes later.” Manje kulolu daba lakwa-IEC Mongameli njengoba uqoke umngani wakho omdala u-Glen Mashinini, owaye ewu meluleki siqu wakho, ngibona ukuthi vele umqokele ukuthi “i-ANC must come first” njengoba wawubekile.(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, Mr President, last week when we asked your deputy, hon Cyril Ramaphosa, about your speech which you delivered at the Provincial Conference in KwaZulu-Natal where you said: “The ANC comes first and South Africa comes later.” In his reply he said: “No, South Africa comes first and the ANC comes later.” Now, President, regarding the issue of the IEC since you have appointed your old friend, Glen Mashinini, who was your adviser; I’m convinced that you appointed him in order for the “the ANC must come first” as you suggested.]
So my question is: Is the Presidency divided in this matter? Before ...
... iSekela lakho lithe “cha.” Ungahleki Mongameli ... [... your deputy said “no”. Don’t laugh, Mr President.]
... this is very serious. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Ngihleka impela. Ngeke ngingahleki. Okokuqala uMashinini akayena umngani wami. [Ubuwelewele.] uMashinini ubewu zakwethu emsebenzini. Wayeqashwe ngamakhono akhe ukuthi abe umsizi kaMongameli. [Ihlombe.] Nalapho aqashwe khona manje uqashwe ngamakhono akhe. Kuphela. Angiqashelwanga, angizange ngiqashe mngani wami. Akumina futhi engangithinteka kulolu hla lokuthi abantu bathathwa kanjani. Amajaji athintekayo naleli Phalamende balibona igama lakhe, base bemkhetha. Babona ukuthi unekhono elifanele. Ngingenaphi mina lapho? [Ihlombe.] [Ubuwelewele.] Mina ngabamba iqhaza uma sekuthiwe nanka amagama. Bathi abanye nangu obonakale enamakhono amahle ehamba phambili. Ngangingeke ngishintshe mina kulokho. Okwesibili, asehlukene ngemibono ehhovisini likaMongameli.
Into ebesiyikhuluma besikhuluma namalungu kaKhongolose ngokubaluleka kukaKhongolose, owawulwela inkululeko ekhulula iNingizimu Afrika ngoba eyithanda. Ngoba ihamba phambili. [Ihlombe.] Ngiwatshela ukuthi i-ANC ibumbane, isebenze, izimisele ngawo wonke amandla ukuthi ithuthukise iNingizimu Afrika ize ifike la eya khona, umebenzi omkhulu kakhulu lowo. Vele i-ANC eyabakhona kuqala ngaphambi kweNingizimu Afrika Yentando Yabantu. Iyona eyeza kuqala. Iyona eyalwa yaba nabantu abagcwele amajele, yaba nabantu abalwayo abafela ezintabeni. Yafika kuqala. Intando Yabantu ilethwe i-ANC. Iyingane ka-ANC. [Ihlombe.] Lokho engangikusho ngithi malungu, ningakukhohlwa lokho. Ilapho-ke indaba. Akukho ukwehlukana. Ngikhuluma njengoMongameli we-ANC kumalungu e-ANC. Ngingakhulumi njengoMongameli wezwe kubantu baseNingizimu Afrika.
IPhini beliqinisile impela. Belikutshela iqiniso. Sivumelana ngqo. Asehlukani ndawo. Siyabonga, Somlomo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: I’m absolutely laughing. I can’t help not laughing. Firstly, Mr Mashinini is not my friend. [Interjections.] Mr Mashinini was only my colleague. He was employed because of his skills in order to assist the President. [Applause.]Even where he is employed now he was appointed based on his skills. That is all. I did not appoint any friend of mine. I was not even part of the recruitment and selection process. The judges and this Parliament saw his name. They selected him. They saw that he has a suitable skill. Where do I fit in there? [Applause.] [Interjections.] I only participated after the names were presented to me. Others said here is the candidate who is reckoned as be suitable with the suitable skills and the first one. I wouldn’t change that. Secondly we are not divided in the Presidency in this matter.
What we were saying was directed to the members of the ANC about the importance of the ANC, which fought for freedom to free South Africa because of its love for it. Because it comes first. [Applause.] I told them that the ANC must be united, work and try by all means to take South Africa forward in order for it to reach where it needs to be, and that is a mammoth task. Of course, the ANC was there before the democratic South Africa came into being. It is came first. It is the one that fought and had many people who were jailed, it had people who fought and died on the mountains. It came first: The democracy was brought by the ANC. It is the brainchild of the ANC. [Applause.] What I said was, members don’t forget that. That was the gist of the story. There is no division. I was talking as the president of the ANC to the members of the ANC not as the President of the country to the people of South Africa.
The Deputy President was telling the truth. He was telling you the truth. We totally agree. We don’t disagree anywhere. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]]
Mr M H HOOSEN: Mr President, all of these incidents are very worrying and they pose a very real threat to our democracy: the appointment of your friend, Mr Mashinini, which you explained just now; the comments that you made not too long ago about the ANC; and then now, of course, this appointment of Sadtu members who are going to be actively involved in pursuing the interests of the ANC. Does it not worry you, Mr President, that our democracy and the impartiality and integrity of the IEC are being eroded, to the extent that, not too long from today, many opposition political parties are quite likely not to trust the outcome of the elections? Does that not concern you as the President?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, no. There is no threat to democracy. Instead, our democracy is maturing. In the IEC we’ve had Sheila Camerer from the National Party. Nobody complained. We have had Raenette Taljaard from the DA. Nobody complained. Why didn’t you complain? What was happening? [Applause.] Where we eroding democracy? We, who understand democracy, never complained. Until she resigned on her own, Taljaard, very recently. There is nothing wrong. Once that happens, it means democracy is maturing. [Applause.] We have people who can be given a task and do not put their political beliefs first, but do what the country wants them to do. That is the maturing of democracy. No erosion. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Particulars regarding rolling out and completion of ICT connectivity projects
21. Mr B H Holomisa (UDM) asked the President of the Republic:
- With reference to the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission’s work on social infrastructure and the Strategic Integrated Projects, and with specific reference to the roll-out of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) connectivity, what (a) is the total number of ICT centres that have been created in (i) urban areas and (ii) rural areas and (b) are the names of the specified areas where ICT connectivity has been rolled out;
- what impact has the rolling out of ICT connectivity had on ordinary citizens’ access to information;
(3) what is the projected time frame for the completion of the ICT connectivity projects? NO4773E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, a number of connectivity programmes have been started in schools, health facilities, universities and government facilities countrywide. We are happy with the progress that is being made. Through the 2010 Fifa World Cup legacy programme, 1 650 schools have been connected to the Internet around the country. Key metropolitan municipalities have extended free Internet access to the public. In Pretoria there are 673 free Wi-Fi locations that are spread across the Tshwane CBD, as well as in Erasmus, Eesterust, Mamelodi, Soshanguve, Ga-Rankuwa, Atteridgeville, Pretoria West and Centurion in Tshwane.
By August this year, the City of Cape Town had connected 69 sites with Wi-Fi. The City of Johannesburg has also introduced free Wi-Fi in areas such as Braamfontein and Tladi Park in Soweto, and is promising that more parks will be activated.
Over half of all libraries and clinics across Johannesburg’s seven regions now have free Wi-Fi provided by the municipalities. By July 2015, the City of eThekwini had connected more than 80 public libraries and 75 of these have free Wi-Fi. The Ekurhuleni metro deployed their fibre network infrastructure in the previous financial year, and is currently deploying its own Wi-Fi access infrastructure.
The Universal Service and Access Agency of SA, or Usaasa, connected 212 ICT - information and communications technology - centres and schools across all nine provinces between 2012 and 2015. These include 71 ICT access centres and 141 schools. From 2013 to date, Usaasa has also had special programmes to address underserviced rural areas. The agency has concluded contracts to deploy broadband coverage infrastructure in the following local municipalities: Msinga in KwaZulu-Natal, Ratlou in the North West, Joe Morolong in the Northern Cape, Emalahleni in the Eastern Cape, Matule in Limpopo and Albert Luthuli in Mpumalanga. In terms of the Square Kilometre Array project near Carnarvon in the Northern Cape, 360 households will be connected with high-speed broadband.
There are many other areas that are being connected around the country. The impact of extensive and comprehensive broadband availability has ensured that regardless of location, citizens have access to information through mobile technology. The possession of smart phones by millions of South Africans has also ensured that most South Africans enjoy the benefits of accessing information across the country, especially in rural and underdeveloped areas.
Connectivity at schools and universities has had a significant impact in making available additional information and knowledge for learners and students. Through the work done on the implementation of SA Connect, the projections are that, by 2020, all schools, clinics, hospitals and government facilities will be connected, starting with phase one as announced during the state of the nation address of 2015. I thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I have been told that the hon Kwankwa will take the supplementary question on behalf of the hon Holomisa.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Mr President, we would like to find out whether or not government has engaged the private sector, in particular the networks - some of the service providers - in this ICT infrastructure roll-out programme to ensure that they provide connectivity at a reduced rate or roll it out free of charge in some rural parts of the country as part of their social responsibility programme, because this will ensure that we expedite this programme. They too stand to benefit once communities are connected and have access to information. Thank you so much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, of course part of what business does is to engage on this programme as business. However, we look at what they can do and where they feel they can do it. Of course there could be some areas where the social service, from their point of view, does something by donating certain things to certain schools. That’s how it has been going. As government we are rolling this out as a responsibility; they do business. But, of course, where there will be a possibility to work together, I don’t think there is any problem. But, of course, as you asked if we could engage them, we normally engage business on all programmes that are there, and if they can participate, fine. But, as you know, they are driven by benefits. Wherever they go they must get profits, so to speak. Thank you very much.
Mrs M R SHINN: Speaker, rural South Africa, thanks to government inertia and bungling, is denied access to Internet-based government services and the Worldwide Web. This digital exclusion has had a dire impact on opportunities for marginalised communities to better their lives.
In the state of the state of the nation address, Mr President, you announced the legally dubious decision that Telkom would be the lead agency for SA Connect. Why one JSE-listed company was chosen above others, without the benefit of complying with the PFMA, is anyone’s guess. It caused an uproar in the ICT sector. This has led to a torturous and secretive reverse-engineering process to ensure the Telkom appointment passes legal muster before the deal is signed. The date for signing this deal keeps receding.
Mr President, why did you decide to not subject the lead agency appointment to an open tender so that the best innovative ICT brains could fairly compete and contribute to connecting the nation? Surely this is preferable than shutting them out of the process.
The PRESIDENT OF THE PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, in the process that the hon member was talking about we are not shutting out anyone. I think the idea has been how you make the country benefit. Now, Telkom is, as you know, a public institution ... [Interjections.] ... to a very large extent. [Interjections.] Now, if you are dealing with it, you are dealing with an institution that is not like your pure private company, so to speak. [Interjections.] So, if you allow that institution to lead the process, it means you are taking into account some of the citizens who might not have the capacity to handle some of the activities that we are talking about.
Therefore it was important to look at it from that point of view. That is what drove that kind of feeling: that this particular company, importantly, would have an understanding of the demands of the country. That is what informed that kind of feeling, or what led up to a conclusion. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: [Laughing.]
The SPEAKER: I now recognise the hon Lesoma.
[Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You know, Speaker, who must be taken seriously, the President answers a question, says absolutely nothing and then he laughs. [Interjections.] It means the questions are jokes here.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: But, Speaker, you must protect us.
The SPEAKER: No. Please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: The President has said absolutely nothing to the question and then he laughs. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: This is not some ... I’ve been telling him this is not Trevor Noah’s show.
The SPEAKER: No, I think you must take the House seriously. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: He comes to ... [Inaudible.] He comes to laugh at questions in Parliament. The people of South Africa want answers. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ... [Interjections.] Hon Lesoma, please proceed.
Nks R M LESOMA: Thank you ...
Somlomo, siyazibongela. Mongameli wezwe ohloniphekile, uhulumeni kaKhongolose kokunye azibophezelele ukukwenza eqhulwini ukuthuthukisa izidingonqangi ngokulungisa umonakalo owenziwa uhulumeni wengcindezelo. Kungabe yini esemicabangweni noma ohlelweni lukahulumeni ekuqinisekeni ukulwisana nokungalingani ngokwamandla komasipala ekuletheni izidingonqangi kwezokuxhumana phecelezi ICT infrastructure ikakhulukazi komasipala abantulayo? Ngiyazibongela, Somlomo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, one of the things that the ANC-led government committed itself to do, it is to prioritise providing basic needs by fixing the damage that was caused by the apartheid government. What does government have in mind or what are your plans with regard to fighting inequality in the municipalities with regard to delivering the ICT infrastructure especially in the poorer municipalities? I Thank you.]
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ingqalasizinda le ebhekene nalokhu esikhuluma ngako izofika nakwabanye omasipala. Kusho ukuthi akunakufika kanye kanye ngoba izimo zabo azilingani njengoba futh izinto zingafiki ezindaweni zonke ngesikhathi esisodwa. Kusho ukuthi labo ababonakala ukuthi bahlwempu kuzobonakala ukuthi kwenziwani ukuze basizwe ngoba kubalulekile ukuthi nabo bangene kulomshungu wokusebenza ngendlela yanamhlanje. Kusho ukuthi noma ingakafiki izofika. Uhulumeni uzobuka abe esebabonelela. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The infrastructure concerning that will be available in other municipalities. It cannot happen at the same time because their needs are not the same as service delivery does not happen in different places at the same time. We will look into what can be done with regard to those poorer ones in order to help them because it is important for them to also be working with modern technology. This means that even if it has not come, it will come. The government will look into that and then do something for them. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, you know it is common cause that one of the biggest role-players in the ICT sector in South Africa is MTN. And MTN is reported - not just reported, it is confirmed now - that it is involved in incidences of tax avoidance on the continent: in Uganda, in Nigeria, in Ghana. It has been given a fine for defying the laws in Nigeria of R72 billion. It is taking money of the continent and taking it offshore to tax havens. The last time we asked the question about tax avoidance, you gave a very sorry response.
Again, we ask: What do you do with a company that is part of the shareholders as a PIC, which is South African pensioners’ money? It’s avoiding taxes on the continent in terms of base erosion and all those other things. What do we do with the situation of a company, owned by pensioners in a sense, but involved in criminal activities on the entire continent? Could you please give a clearer answer this time, because the last time you waffled?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I don’t know how to stop my laughter. Is it hurting? [Interjections.] No ... because generally ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: You asked a question, hon member ... [Inaudible.] Can you allow the President to answer your question?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are asking that he not waffle. He can laugh, he can talk ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much if I can laugh, because I will always laugh. The issue of avoidance of tax by big companies is the issue that is being discussed globally. Even in the G20 we discussed this issue to find a common remedy, one of which has been, for example, to provide information from other countries about companies that come from other countries ... are in other countries. There are many companies that don’t pay tax where they make profits. They then go out to tax pay tax where they are resident. It has now been agreed that the information should be automatic. If a company is operating in South Africa, we should automatically get information as to what its status is to fight the avoidance of paying tax. It has been a trend in all big companies in the world.
We are discussing, as a globe, how to curb that. The matter was discussed and a decision has been taken that we need to find a system ... because there has been no system to stop that. We need to find a system that will make companies pay tax where they are operating, where they are supposed to pay tax. [Interjections.] So I’m sure the company you are referring to will fall into that category. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. [Applause.]
Government support to communities and farmers affected by water shortages and drought
22. Ms J M Maluleke (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
With reference to the reply of the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to question 2626 on 11 August 2015, what support will the Government provide to affected (a) communities and (b) farmers in light of the water shortages and persistent drought in some parts of the country? NO4779E
The PRESIDENT: I shoved my question without realising.
An HON MEMBER: Just answer.
The PRESIDENT: I’m going to answer you, don’t worry.
Government has appointed an interministerial committee led by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which is co-ordinating the response to the water scarcity and drought conditions in the country.
Affected government departments announced their respective programmes at a media briefing last week and the public will be kept informed on a continuous basis.
A state of disaster has been declared in the provinces of the North West, Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and Free State. These declarations will ensure that support is provided to communities and farmers in the provinces to address the impact of the drought.
Provincial government departments are also rolling out various intervention programmes to respond to the challenge. Government has set aside resources to enable the supply of water tankers for use in the distribution of water to affected areas, borehole drilling and rehabilitation water, conservation and demand management and water source augmentations.
Support to be provided to farmers include the purchase and provision of livestock feed, transportation of feed to accessible points and waters sources such as the drilling of boreholes for animal drinking.
The department of Co-operative Governance and Tradition Affairs has written to all the mayors in the country to take various actions to respond to the situation. These actions include the introduction of water restrictions and others measures monitoring adherence to water restrictions and the application of penalties where necessary. Municipalities must also prioritise the repair of water leaks and the promotion of water efficient technologies such as low-flush toilets, rainwater harvesting and the use of gray water for irrigation.
Uhulumeni uzokwenza konke okusemandleni ukuze usize abalimi abakhungethwe ilenkinga yesomiso. Ohulumeni ... [The government will do everything in its power to assist all those farmers who are affected by this drought problem. The governments ...]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, on a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, you can’t just get up in the middle of an answer. Please just take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, I am rising in terms of the Rules.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi. Take your seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Rule 62 says that a member must refrain from reading his or her speech, but may refresh their memory. The President is reading all the time. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, Hon Ndlozi. Take your seat. Please let the President finish his answer.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, ...
... bezifundazwe sebeziqalile izinhlelo. Abalimi kumele bathinte iminyango yezolimo ezifundazweni ukuze bathole usizo. [... of provinces have initiated the programmes. Farmers must contact the provincial Departments of Agriculture so that they can access help.]
This difficult period requires the co-operation of all in the country. We call on all to save water and adhere to the water restrictions. I thank you.
Ms J M MALULEKE: Hon Speaker, President, it became evident from your reply that there are two strategies for consideration upon which responses to drought and water shortages should be premised. [Interjections.] The risk reduction and strategies option managed the drought.
How will the Presidency assist in ensuring that government effectively communicates information on the strategic responses to the drought and water shortage so as to empower communities and farmers with workable solutions? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, government has been communicating publicly with the communities through the medium of TV and radios, but it has also been meeting communities to communicate the crisis and to say what government is trying to do and what is in turn expected from the population itself - the question of saving water and how to do it. This is being done by government at all levels. So we are trying our level best to inform the population about what is happening and about what they need to do, and what government is doing. Thank you.
Ms A STEYN: Speaker, Mr President, this is not a challenge, this is a disaster. So far seven of the nine provinces have been severely affected. I listened carefully to the media briefing last week and I’ve been following all announcements since last week. The R226 million announced by Minister Zokwana will feed 4,7 million cattle for one day. North West alone would need R2,9 billion to feed its animals. This drought could put South Africa in a food security state. Would you agree to declaring this a national disaster? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT: Speaker, government has declared specific areas affected as under disaster and measures are being taken in those specific areas. That’s what we’ve done. [Interjections.] If people say it’s not enough, that is their view. Government has been watching and monitoring how the drought has been affecting specific areas in specific provinces. This is what it has done. It has not declared it as a national disaster. When that moment comes, it will certainly do so. At the moment it is dealing with specific areas that need urgent attention and that is what it has been doing from government’s side. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, President, I put to you that the drought is only but a part of our crisis. The drought, of course, is not our government’s problem, but we were warned a decade ago that a drought was looming. We were warned even before that that a water crisis was looming, yet your government failed to act. So, at the heart of this crisis is a crisis of leadership. [Interjections.] As we sit here, the community of Umkhanyakude – the hardest hit community – has no water. It’s got no water, because a company linked to the husband of a KwaZulu-Natal MEC received a tender to supply water pipes. Those water pipes have vanished – they are lying in the bush.
So, my question to you, Mr President is, is there real political will to protect our communities? Because, at this stage, it looks like your government only leads when something bleeds. And, finally, if there is political will, will there be political accountability? Will those who fail to act be punished? Maybe starting with the Minister of Water and Sanitation who failed to spend R2 billion of her budget in the face of this crisis. I thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT: Speaker, yes, there is political will; and government is acting. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
An HON MEMBER: Pathetic! Pathetic!
Dr P W A MULDER: Speaker, President, to ensure food security and avoid the farming infrastructure being destroyed, it is very important for government to realise the seriousness and give support.
Just one example, sir, in the Bothaville area alone, at this moment, 46 farms are up for sale. That is a very important maize area, but even more important is the support that must reach the farming communities speedily – within a few months.
You know, sir, in the past it has taken up to two years before support reached the farmers. By that time they are bankrupt, or already gone, with the new upcoming farmers being the first to be in trouble. So, I ask you, are there timeframes to give support within months? Otherwise the support will be too late. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, government has programmes to reach areas that are most affected by the drought, and that is what it is doing with these programmes. I can’t give any details about specific areas where I don’t have information whether that has been done in that specific area. All I know is that whatever areas have been affected, government has a programme to reach those areas. I can’t tell you about the timeframes, because I don’t have those details. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Effect of recent events on Government’s foreign policy in relation to two-state solution between Israel and Palestine
23. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether, with reference to Israel’s reaction that the hosting of Hamas by a certain political organisation (name furnished) and the signing of an agreement between the leadership of Hamas and the specified political organisation constitutes an unfriendly act by South Africa, the effectiveness of the Government’s foreign policy which promotes a two-state solution between Israel and Palestine has been undermined? NO4710E
The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, South Africa strongly believes that all Palestinian parties need to unite in order to effectively negotiate with the state of Israel for a viable and united Palestinian state.
In so doing, South Africa supports reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas. We maintain strong relations with both the Israelis and the Palestinians. This is demonstrated by our presence through the South African embassy in Tel Aviv and the Israeli embassy in Pretoria. We also have a representative office in Ramallah and the Palestinians have an embassy in Pretoria. Thus South Africa has access to both sides through these diplomatic channels.
South Africa engages with all the role-players to the conflict with the hope that they will engage freely and openly on the future of Palestine. It is for this reason that South Africa is viewed by both sides to be better placed to assist in the peaceful resolution of the conflict.
As part of South Africa’s contribution to the international diplomatic effort towards a resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I appointed two special envoys to the Middle East peace process: former Minister Dr Zola Skweyiya and former Deputy Minister Aziz Pahad. Thus far the special envoys have concluded rounds of consultations that took them to Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Turkey, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Syria.
South Africa supports international efforts aimed at the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, existing side by side with Israel, within internationally recognised borders based on those existing on 4 June 1967, prior to the outbreak of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, with East Jerusalem as its capital.
This Sunday I will attend the conference of the SA Jewish Board of Deputies, which provides an opportunity for an engagement on these matters as South Africa will continue to play a constructive role in the peace process. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker. Mr President, the Hamas Charter explicitly stipulates in article 13 that, and I quote:
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad ... Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time and a farce.
Hamas, which is an Islamic extremist movement, committed to extending the global Islamic caliphate through radical violent means to every inch of Israel and beyond, does not share the values of democracy, freedom of religion and gender equality that the ANC believes in. Like Iran, Hamas has vowed to annihilate the only democratic and the only Jewish state in the Middle East. Is it not counterproductive and contradictory for the ANC to sign an agreement with Hamas when Hamas has threatened to destroy Israel, while the government still claims to believe that Israel has the right to exist within safe and secure borders alongside the Palestinian state?
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. I must start first by saying that the situation in the Middle East, with regard to the Israelis and Arabs in general, has evolved over a period of time. There was a time when all Arabs were saying what the hon member has just read: that Israel must disappear. That time has passed. Now they accept the need for Israel to exist side by side.
If there are still those who hold that view, I’m sure they are going to move into a particular position. The situation has evolved there because many parties in the world engaged them to influence them to reach a particular point. It is therefore very important that the ANC engage Hamas, precisely to discuss those matters, to influence them, to move to a position that says: We accept the view of the existence of two states.
Now, when the ANC met with Hamas, they did not present that position to the ANC. They presented a position that accepts that there must be a peaceful solution. That’s what they are saying. Now, in terms of what the hon member was reading, I’m not sure when that was written, but this is what they were saying when they talked to the ANC – and angling on the issue of unity among all Palestinians of different groups. [Interjections.] They are ready to discuss and have that, and they are ready for us to play a role to find a solution. The ANC will never stop working on people regardless of the views they have, to put forward logic that will influence them to take on the correct views and values. That is our job. We can’t say that because people think differently we are going to ignore them. We have influenced many people in this world as the ANC, including the previous apartheid government. We influenced it to enter into negotiations when they were not ready to do so. That’s the ANC’s power. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, it appears that you are very well advised by your Minister of Health, because medical experts say that if you want to live a long and healthy life you must laugh every day. [Laughter.] [Applause.] So, I think, that is why you are laughing.
Mr President, I think you have actually answered some of the questions here, because when Hamas that they wanted to get rid of Israel, it was as a result of one fact: despite all the negotiations and engagements among various countries and all the agreements that were reached, Israel was not prepared to comply. And that’s exactly what has happened in South Africa. As you said, Mr President, we discussed, we negotiated, when it failed, it was a case of, “Let’s take up arms.” And that is the reason why people take up arms. That’s the first thing.
I want to commend this government for accepting Hamas coming here, because that then gives a clear picture that you want an objective view ... [Applause.] ... of both sides of what is happening – that is finding a peaceful solution. [Interjections.] Now, Mr President, this war in Israel and Palestine is not a religious war among Muslims, Christians and Jews. It is about the Palestinian people’s right to exist. That is what it is all about. [Applause.] Now, parties and political parties use this for their own benefit to grandstand either to get funding or to receive funding to destabilise these people. This is what it is all about. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Mr President, regarding this meeting that took place with Hamas, can you tell us what you have learned from this meeting and what the information that you got ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Indeed, time, hon member.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... information that you got – how is it going to help you take it forward ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Your time has expired. [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... accelerating the process of peace in the Middle East? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon member. Just to start where you started: my laughing is not hurtful; it is healthy. Thank you very much for that. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
I agree with you that the issue in the Middle East needs to be looked at from the position of what it is, because at times people are one-sided. At times people think that Hamas is more extreme. They forget that Israel also is very extreme. That’s why there has been an unending fight. Our job, our duty – all of us who love peace – is to influence both of them to talk and accept that they need to exist.
At the beginning of the existence of Israel, the issue of Israel defending itself was because the Arabs then had the view that it must not be there, that it must not exist. We all said that they need to exist. A similar argument must apply now to the Palestinians, and you can’t move from one extreme to the other.
Therefore Hamas is coming. We had an opportunity to exchange views. We now know what they think. They do need – as they made the point – to meet as many people as possible so that they can clarify their positions. This is what they want to do so that people understand what makes them take particular positions and what it is that they think should be done. Also, what help can we give to ensure that we bring the situation to a close? So this is very important. I totally agree with the hon member. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Mr President, I thought you were out of touch with domestic issues, but certainly you are more out of touch with global issues. [Interjections.] But having said that ... [Interjections.] ... in light of the complex nature of the Middle East conflict – and you have alluded to the extremism which requires impartiality – don’t you agree that picking a side compromises South Africa’s ability to play a credible role in the future in assisting to resolve this crisis which requires us to be objective, and, if not, why not, sir?
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. Just to help the hon member, I am very much in touch with local issues, more in touch with them than with anything else. [Interjections.] Regarding the issue of picking sides, we are not picking sides in the Middle East.
We have a very clear policy in that we have to deal with all sides. We have met Israelis many times and discussed the issues. They themselves have said that they believe South Africa has to role to play to help them and to help both sides. They even agreed that meeting the Palestinians was very important for South Africa. We now have met Hamas. We have met other groupings, so we are not choosing sides. If that is your impression, I hope it will be corrected. We are meeting both sides. Even in my initial answer, I said that we deal with both. And both sides, by the way, accept that South Africa has to role to play to help them arrive at a conclusion of their conflict. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms T E KENYE: Thank you, hon Speaker. Thank you, hon President. As we know, the ANC is the champion of reconciliation. And we know that South Africa mediates for unity in all countries with conflicts. My question, President: Is the continual building of illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied territory a hindrance to achieving a two-state solution? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, definitely, it is a hindrance, and it is, in fact, not helping the process to move forward. And, as you know, Israel has done that in defiance of the global view of all countries that it must not do so. That is part of what we discuss with Israel – identifying that very kind of a problem in that you can’t be saying you want a solution when you actually create the problems. So, that is not helping the process, and we believe and hope that at a given time Israel will retreat from where it is occupying Palestinian land. That’s why we are saying that it ought to go back to the original borders of 1967. That would be an important gesture, showing the preparedness of Israel to live side by side with the Palestinian state. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: The last question has been asked by the hon J L Mahlangu. The hon President?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, Speaker. Could I make a point of order please – point of privilege. I know we are on to the last question. I just want to clarify a point you made earlier, because it’s ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: I’m coming back to that point.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Will you come back to the point, please Speaker? Thanks.
The SPEAKER: Yes.
Support of India-Africa initiative for developmental challenges of Southern Africa
24. Mr J L Mahlangu (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
In light of South Africa and India sharing a common ideology based on ubuntu and ahimsa and premised on reshaping the global agenda, (a) how does the India-Africa initiative support the developmental challenges of the broader developing Southern Africa and (b) what progress has been made in implementing the decisions of the 9th Session of the India-South Africa Joint Ministerial Commission of 19 May 2015? NO4780E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, South Africa maintains a strategic partnership with the Republic of India that spans numerous multilateral forums. There also exists between the two countries a dynamic bilateral relationship, which includes consultation and co-ordination on a wide range of issues.
Bilateral relations are structured through two instruments. These are the Foreign Office Consultations and the Joint Ministerial Commission. The meetings are held annually and alternate between the two countries. The last ministerial commission meeting was held in Durban in May this year. It was co-chaired by the Ministers responsible for foreign affairs in the two countries.
The commission adopted a comprehensive five-year strategic programme for co-operation between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of India. Five key priority sectors for enhanced co-operation were identified, namely financing, deep mining, infrastructure development, agroprocessing and the defence sector.
There is already good progress that has been made in implementing the decisions and the outcomes of the last commission. Notable progress has been made in co-operation between Indian and South African mining and engineering companies, mining technology firms and manufacturers of mining equipment.
The comprehensive skills development programme offered by India is further evidence of the solid co-operation between our two countries. The expansion and further development of this programme will provide for more students to benefit from this scholarship opportunity and also focus on addressing South Africa’s key priorities.
The commission also launched the subcommittee on science and technology and innovation, based on the comprehensive co-operation between South Africa and India in this sector. Importantly, the Joint Ministerial Mission has set a goal that the value of trade between the two countries should reach US$18 billion by the end of this year. Reaching this goal, in a difficult global economic environment, will require a concerted effort by both countries, especially in removing barriers to trade and in facilitating the ease of doing business between the two countries.
A preferential trade agreement is currently being negotiated between India and the SA Customs Union. Once concluded, the agreement will facilitate an increase in the flow of trade between South Africa and India. The Joint Ministerial Commission also reaffirmed co-operation at a multilateral level. Together with India we are members of the India, Brazil, South Africa grouping, called Ibsa for short; of the Brics group, that is the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa grouping; of the G77 plus China; of the Non-Aligned Movement; and of the G20.
In these forums we address the developmental challenges of the Global South while stressing the critical importance of the reform of the global governance institutions, such as the United Nations and international financial institutions. I thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr J L MAHLANGU: Hon Speaker, thank you. I just want to pick up on what the President said when addressing a meeting during the recent G8 gathering in Turkey. He made the point that some of the problems facing the West emanated from poverty, violence and insecurity from neighbouring countries, that the West must be careful to associate terrorism with migration and that they should avoid tackling political problems through the use of military means.
Now, based on the ideology of ubuntu in South Africa and Ahimsa in the case of India and our resolve to reshape the global agenda, does South Africa see the need to work with the Indian government to reform the UN using the shared ideologies?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, yes, we do share the same values and understanding with regard to the transformation of the United Nations and its institutions. In fact, India is very strong on the fact that it also needs to be part of the Security Council, whilst, on the other side from our point of view, we are fighting for Africa to be represented on the Security Council. Africa, which has a population of over 1 billion people, is not represented. We believe that this is unfair and therefore we share the same view from the G77 plus China position with India. Including the transformation of the financial institutions, we share the same views. We discuss these at the different institutions that I mentioned here. Therefore is no contradiction between the two countries. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, whether you are speaking in Mumbai at this joint commission or whether you are speaking in Antalya in Turkey where you were last week, or whether you are speaking at a provincial conference in KwaZulu-Natal, you speak as the President of South Africa. [Interjections.] That is not a hat that you can just put on and take off as you please. You were elected by this House to put the country first in everything that you do. The message that you send to civil servants and other politicians around the country is that they can do the same: they can also put the party before the country. So when they are awarding a tender at Medupi, they can favour Chancellor House over another company. When they are building a house for you, they can spend too much money because they are putting the party above the country.
So, President, I regard very seriously the nonanswer that you gave to the earlier question by my colleague from the EFF. Will you please use this opportunity to correct your statement and reassure this House and the country that in everything that you do, whether as party president or as President of the country, you put our country first? [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, maybe the hon member did not hear me because I answered in Zulu, but if he had heard me he wouldn’t be asking the question. The question was, for example: Is there a difference of views in the Presidency? I said no. I said and emphasised that. What the Deputy President said was absolutely correct. I explained that if I address the ANC, I am an ANC president, in addition to being the President of the state, elected by ANC members ... [Interjections.] ... not to the ANC. This House did not elect me to be the president of the ANC. You are making a big mistake. [Interjections.] You are muddling up the issues, my dear friends. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
I was elected by the ANC. It is the elections of the ANC of me as a president that led me to come to this House. I was elected first by the ANC as a president, and then was given a task to lead a campaign as the ANC president before I was the state President and through the democratic process I came to this House as a president of the ANC and stood as a president here. Then I was elected here as the President of the state. [Interjections.] That’s what it is. You can’t conflate the two things.
When I speak to ANC members, I speak to ANC members. [Interjections.] When I speak to the country, I speak to the country, and I make a distinction between the two. [Interjections.]
Mr L J BASSON: Who comes first? Answer the question.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Who came first? [Interjections.] Was it a democratic country or the ANC? Who came first? Because I am answering your question directly. [Interjections.] Who came first? Who came first? Who came first? [Interjections.] [Applause.] The issue is, in the first instance, that we pay no attention when the DA meets. We have never asked you a question. You say all funny stuff. [Interjections.] This was an ANC meeting, discussing ANC policy and ANC issues. Why are you so interested in the ANC model, in the first instance? [Interjections.] [Applause.] You love the ANC, I know. You can’t stop talking about the ANC. [Interjections.] No problem. The point we are making is: We are saying that the ANC started to fight for a democratic South Africa before it existed, in 1912. [Interjections.] It fought all this time until it liberated South Africa, and then the democratic Republic was born. The ANC is taking South Africa today to prosperity. No other party can do that except the ANC. [Interjections.] [Applause.] So, the ANC is very important. That is what I was dealing with: the politics of the ANC. [Interjections.]
Hon MEMBERS: Answer the question.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I have answered the question.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, is your House yours as the president of the ANC or President of the country? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I can’t hear you.
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: There is a point ... [Inaudible.]
The President isn’t answering the question.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Maimane, I have not given you the floor. I have not given you the floor. Just take your seat.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I speak to the president of the ANC?
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I want to the president of the ANC. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... ANC ... [Inaudible.] ... Nkandla ... [Interjections.] Please! Can the ANC then finance Nkandla, Speaker? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, please! I have not allowed you to take the floor.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, but South Africans are waiting ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, take your seat.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Which comes first? Is it the President, is it the ANC or ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, he is answering the question. [Interjections.] Could the President answer the question?
The SPEAKER: One of your members has asked a follow-up question. The President is answering.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Which president?
The SPEAKER: You must take your seat.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... [Inaudible.] ... South Africa. He is not answering the question. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane ... [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Speaker ... Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Hill-Lewis, you have asked your follow-up question.
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Yes, but with respect, he hasn’t answered.
The SPEAKER: Hon Hill-Lewis, you have asked your follow-up question. Please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: It’s a really simple question. [Interjections.] It’s a really simple question: Who does he put first?
The SPEAKER: Take a seat, hon Hill-Lewis. I don’t know if the hon President has finished ...
The PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, I have finished. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, there is certainly no prosperity when it comes to small and medium enterprises. I’m not saying this; it was something said by the President of the Black Business Council, Mr Ndaba Ntsele, who, when commenting on the agreement reached between India and South Africa and on the need to develop small and medium enterprises, said this: “SMMEs are the very lifeblood of South Africa’s economic growth, yet 80% of them don’t survive beyond their first year in business.” Eighty per cent of them don’t survive beyond their first year in business.
And I put it to you, hon President, that it is largely because of the barriers to entry in our domestic markets. There is the legal and regulatory environment that prevents SMMEs from prospering; there is the question of access to markets; there is accessibility of finance; and there is accessibility to information. Now, despite the fact that we have a Ministry of Small Business Development, which has done virtually nothing, my question, hon President, is: Are you satisfied that enough is being done in our country to promote small and medium enterprises so that they can boost the economic growth of this country? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I know that many people, when they talk about the economy in South Africa, forget historical facts. Part of the reason, for example, in many countries where you did not need processes and laws to try to empower small businesses was because there was no racially structured economy that excluded the majority. That was the issue. That’s why we have many things, and the successes are not that big. There is no country that has the same thing that we have, because they did not have an economy that was racially structured. That’s a problem. You can look for the problem elsewhere but that’s a problem. We are trying to deal with that. How do you deracialise the economy so that all citizens can move? Some people have already been operating small businesses for a long time; others are starting from scratch.
What are the kinds of things you do to quicken that process? That is a problem. And yet we know that small businesses are crucial to the growth of the economy and to the employment of people. So that is a problem. If you don’t look at that, you just come ... like South Africa is like any other country. You make a big mistake. The first step – you never come to a good conclusion economically because you are looking at it in the wrong way.
South Africa was not like any other country in the world. We are unique, and that’s the problem we are dealing with in this country. Who controls the economy? How is the economy? For example, to emphasise your point: you go to the stock exchange – those that you are talking about, they are only 3% despite the laws that we have made, because we are dealing with a very difficult issue: to dismantle a racially structured economy. That is a problem. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr T RAWULA: Mr President, part of the ... [Inaudible.] ... session of the India-South Africa Joint Ministerial Commission of May 2015 was assurance by the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation to support India’s membership of a nuclear supplier group. Despite overwhelming evidence that nuclear power is not affordable – it will cripple the country’s fiscus and that countries such as Germany with nuclear experience have advised against it – your government is insisting on the procurement of nuclear power, which is estimated to cost more than R1 trillion, almost equal to the country’s total budget.
Is government insisting on nuclear procurement because you are friends? The Gupta’s parent company is in India, disguised in directorship and holdership in South Africa, and your son Duduzane stands to benefit from the nuclear deal. We know that immediately you announced the R1 trillion deal, your family friends, the Guptas, registered a company that is involved in nuclear power. Do you intend to continue with corruption?
In fact, around the issue of ... Our understanding, as the EFF, is that the territory of South Africa has always existed, before the ANC was born. The ANC was born as a tool to liberate the people, so the territory has long existed before the ANC. [Interjections.] Your response is hogwash and indicates political dwarfism.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Firstly, this country has had nuclear power historically. Nuclear power is not a new matter in South Africa. Nuclear power has been there. The only problem is that in the past it was used wrongly, for dangerous weapons. We came in as a democratic government and said we would never use it for dangerous intents. It will be used for helpful and nonmilitary purposes, one of which is to bring energy.
We took a very important position in Copenhagen at Cop 17 and committed this country to move on clean energy, and nuclear power is the cleanest energy. And that’s why we are pursuing it. It will solve the problems ... Even if you put in place, for example, other types of clean energy, we will not reach the percentage that nuclear power will bring to solve the problem of energy in this country once and for all. That is the reason why we are pursuing it. It is an important kind of energy that we need. We need to invest so that we can solve the problems of energy in this country. That is the reason why we took that decision. It has nothing to do with all the kinds of things the hon member was talking about. It has something to do with the energy of the country, and that’s what it is. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, that concludes questions to the President. I thank the hon President. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker ...
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
MATTER RAISED BY HON STEENHUISEN REGARDING NEW VIP AIRCRAFT
(Statement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to get back to the matter that was raised by the hon Steenhuisen at the start of the proceedings. He enquired about a matter to do with the new VIP aircraft, and I said the matter had been responded to.
Indeed, I received correspondence in which the Leader of the Opposition asked for an urgent question to be scheduled on the matter today. The question would have been addressed to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. I responded to that and the letter was sent to the DA. The Rules do not allow us to do what was being requested in the letter. We suggested in the letter the procedure that could be followed.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hold on. That is what I was referring to when I responded to the hon Steenhuisen earlier.
On further enquiry by the Secretary to the National Assembly, the hon Steenhuisen clarified that, in this instance, he was referring to a letter to the President. The letter deals with the same matter, except that it was asking for a statement. I would still leave the matter to the two offices to deal with.
Today, the business before the House has just been concluded and that was Questions to the President, not a statement requested by the hon ...
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker ... Speaker, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, please ...
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: But the President is here. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No. Hon Maimane ... [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... [Inaudible.] ... for him to clarify ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: There are no short cuts, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It is not a short cut. He refused to respond.
The SPEAKER: I have ruled on this matter and I would like you to take your seat, hon Maimane. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Why are you protecting ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, on a point of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon Deputy Chief Whip?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, in this Parliament we have conventions. We consult each other. We have structures in which we deal with issues that will come to the House. [Interjections.] This matter was not raised in the National Assembly Programming Committee, NAPC, and not even in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We had an NAPC meeting this morning and this was not raised. We are not going to allow it. [Interjections.] The business of this day has concluded. We are not going to allow ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon Maimane. Please take your seat.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We are not going to allow the DA to grandstand in this Parliament just for cheap political point-scoring. No. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It’s the last session of the year.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, the House is adjourned. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You protect the President. [Interjections.] You’re protecting him. [Interjections.]
The House adjourned at 15:59.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly
The Speaker
1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled
- The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Telecommunications and Postal Services for consideration and report:
(a) Amendment to Article XII(c)(ii) to the Agreement of the International Telecommunications Satellite Organisation (ITSO), aimed at Protecting the Provision of Satellite Communication Services to Developing Countries, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Amendment to Article XII(c)(ii) to the Agreement of the International Telecommunications Satellite Organisation (ITSO), aimed at Protecting the Provision of Satellite Communication Services to Developing Countries.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
The following report replaces the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which was published on page 5607 of the Annoucements, Tablings and Committee Reports dated 17 November 2015)
1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs on the Disaster Management Amendment Bill [B 10 D – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 76) dated 17 November 2015.
The Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Disaster Management Amendment Bill [B 10 D - 2015] (National Assembly – sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and referred to the committee, reports that it has agreed to the Bill [B10D – 2015].
Report to be considered.
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