Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 19 Aug 2015

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

WEDNESDAY, 19 AUGUST 2015

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:00

 

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

 

SOCIAL SERVICES

Cluster 2

 

Position regarding investigation into allegations of payment to influence voting for hosting rights for 2010 Fifa World Cup

 

303.        Mr M S Malatsi (DA) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

 

Why has he not (a) instituted a ministerial investigation, (b) requested the President for a judicial commission of inquiry and/or (c) approached law enforcement authorities for a criminal investigation into allegations that the Local Organising Committee for the 2010 Federation of International Football Associations (Fifa) World Cup, acting at the behest of the Government, instructed Fifa to direct $US10 million meant for local football programmes to the Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football for the Diaspora Legacy Programme, under the sole supervision of a certain person (name furnished), allegedly as payment for influencing voting for the hosting rights of the global showpiece in the country, as detailed in the United States Attorney General’s indictment against some Fifa officials?                                        NO3376E

 

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, the Ministry stated in the recent past that we will approach the government of the United States of America through diplomatic channels to infer and to solicit the evidence they have in their possession of the alleged bribe. It will be on the basis of the available evidence that the SA government will make a determination whether there is any prima facie case that any South African law has been broken and to make a further determination whether or not to take action as well as what form of action, if necessary. The diplomatic approach has been made and at this juncture, we have no evidence or any basis to institute any enquiry. [Applause.]

 

Mr S MALATSI: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the two letters that are out on this issue, one by Danny Jordaan and Molefi Oliphant, claim that it was a decision by the South African government to authorise the payment of the $10 million. In light of this, can the Minister give us a date on which the South African government ever took this decision and the names of the persons representing the South African government who mandated SA Football Association, Safa, and Danny Jordaan at the time to proceed with this transaction? We know for a fact that the transaction was never ever brought to the board of the 2010 Local Organising Committee, LOC, which is where government was represented, or any of its committees that dealt with its financials including its budgeting committee and the monitoring committee. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: From the side of government, there were many committees that dealt with 2010 Fifa World Cup. Amongst others, there was an established interministerial Committee. Secondly, the South African government pronounced on the policy of supporting the Diaspora. The money that was paid as the so-called bribe did not come from the coffers of the South AFrican government; came from the legacy fund of Fifa and was processed by Fifa. All what the South African government did was to say Africa does not only end with Africa but there is the fifth region, which is the Diaspora which was the policy of the South African government. In that particular context, Safa and Fifa executed that mandate. It will not have been reflected in the records of the South African government in terms of that policy precisely because it is not money that came from the fiscus, it is the money that came from the legacy of South Africa hosting the 2010 World Cup.

 

Hon Malatsi, you will know that the world over, after the World Cup, the legacy money is not coming from the fiscus of any government, but comes from Fifa and is deposited into the accounts of soccer bodies across the world. In the context of South Africa, that was not different.

 

Thirdly, you can’t refer to this as a bribe because it was only referred to by the authorities in the United States of America in the indictment. Even in that indictment, which is public, it doesn’t say that it was a bribe. It is an assumption made by the person who is a witness in that particular case. Read the indictment and then you will understand what it is. This $10 million was money for development that was transferred from bank to bank and not underground. If this was a bribe, then it is a funny bribe because how do you bribe a person aftermath? We won the World Cup bid in 2004 and paid a bribe in 2008. Why did we have to do that? And we did it from bank to bank, a transparent transaction and there were latter exchanges and so on. No bribe. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, South Africa is a state on its own. Why would you want to depend exclusively and entirely on the investigations and information that you will get from the United States of America, USA? What stops you in terms of South African law, from instituting your own local investigation into the matter? About the bribe, why do you think that the only way in which a bribe can be put in effect is if it is done before the act? There is a strong feeling that this was a bribe disguised and somebody thought it would be brilliant enough to only effect payment after the act. That is the general feeling of the South African people. [Interjections.] Why would it be confined?

 

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Filtane, as a law-abiding citizen I suppose you will know that a bribe is a criminal act, and how it is executed, cannot be aboveboard. It has got to be underground in whatever way it is undertaken. In this particular instance, neither ourselves nor Safa has actually denied the transfer of this particular $10 million and supporting the Diaspora development in the Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football, Concacaf. It is how we actually need to understand it. There is no need to establish any enquiry over a matter that is not substantial and does not have any substance for us to institute such enquiry. It is based on those who have undertaken the investigation to suggest that South Africa needs to institute such an investigation.

 

At the present moment, there is nothing that suggests that we must institute any investigation because investigations in their very nature are costly and you will be the first to say that the taxpayers’ money has gone to waste. We don’t institute investigations for the sake of it. In fact, hon Filtane, you should be on our side to defend our sovereignty against abuse by those who are undertaking this particular investigation. Instead, you are on the side of the people who, at all cost, want to rubbish the name of the South African government and its people for hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup which was so successful. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, an attempt to self-investigate is misleading. An interministerial committee to investigate this serious allegation of $10 million cannot be a function of the interministerial committee because it would be allowing people who are suspected of having offended the South African people to investigate themselves.

 

Now the question I wanted to put to the Minister is when can we get the report on how the so-called donation has been investigated? What is your response to Safa denying that they have approved this money and why are criminal charges not laid against LOC members, especially Danny Jordaan? We really want to understand why this man is not being charged at this point in time because he is a potential thief, a potential thug and he is not fit to hold any public office. Now you want to frustrate the investigation and immediate arrest of Danny Jordaan. [Time expired.]

 

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I’ve never heard of anything called potential thief, it is the first time I hear it from the hon member of the EFF. [Laughter.] Potential thief, potential thug, I only know tricksters and vagabonds ... [Laughter.] ... but let me say this – the point about this particular matter is that there is an investigation that is being undertaken by the federal government of the United States of America and it is their own investigation. In their own investigation, they have never pointed at Danny Jordaan or anybody for that particular matter, except to allege that there are the following people on their list; either for questioning or as potential witnesses. But there is absolutely nothing tangible that points to anybody who has committed any act of crime in this particular matter.

 

From the context of the South African government, we did say the Diaspora is part of our policy in support of the 2010 World Cup. To that extent, we supported the Diaspora through $10 million which was executed through Fifa and money deposited to Concacaf. That is what has happened, we have not denied it, we have not said anything about it and we don’t know why anything of that matter must be investigated. In preparation for the World Cup, there was an interministerial committee, you probably don’t know, which was overseeing the preparation for the World Cup. That interministerial committee, among others, would have processed decisions of this particular nature. That $10 million did not come from the South African government’s fiscus, it came from the Fifa legacy fund that was destined for Safa. So, no money of the taxpayers made its way to the Caribbean. Even if it was, it was going to be correct because it was government policy. Thank you. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

 

Rre S G MMUSI: Re a leboga Motlotlegi Motlatsammusakgotla, fa Aforika Borwa e ne e bontsha maikaelelo a go nna baamogela baeng ba motshameko ya kgwele ya dinao ya 2010, go ne ga totobala gore Aforika Borwa ga e direle seo fela Maaforika Borwa, e ne e direla Aforika le Maaforika a a seyong mo Aforika. Jaanong potso ke gore ... (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr S G MMUSI: We thank honourable Deputy Speaker, when South Africa showed its intentions of hosting the 2010 Soccer World Cup, it was clear that South Africa was not only doing that for South Africans; it was doing that for Africa as well as other South Africans who are not in Africa. Now, the question is ...]

 

... in relation to US$10 million given to the Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football for the Diaspora Legacy Programme, what was the motivation for the donation? What were the principles that underpin these and which other regions or countries benefited from the support of South Africa?

 

Ke a leboga Motlotlegi Motlatsammusakgotla. [Thank you Deputy Speaker.]

 

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: What is not said here is that we implemented a programme “Win in Africa with Africa” which each African state had demonstrated support. R70 million was deposited to these countries. The R10 million was an extension to the Caribbean as part of the Diaspora. That’s what happened because we did not say that the World Cup was only for South Africa. It was for Africa and Africans in the Diaspora. It is in that context that we brought World Cup here in South Africa and the African continent for the first time. We are the only ones who are mentioned in the negative terms but there are others equally in the indictment who are mentioned in negative terms but it is not blown out of proportion.

 

However, it cannot be anything else because South Africa and Africa have made it and hosted the world class successful World Cup that has never been seen before. [Applause.] That is why we defeated Afro-pessimism. In that context we have to be projected as corrupt. Nothing was corrupt about this World Cup and everything was aboveboard and our initiatives of supporting development are there for everyone to see in the African continent and the Diaspora. The fact that it is alleged, others misused those particular resources, it is not our case, it is for them who’ve got the case to answer. [Applause.]

 

Programmes to combat the scourge of drugs in communities

 

269.        Mrs B L Abrahams (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:

 

(1)      What collaborative or intervention programmes has her department, the SA Police Service and community policing forums put in place to effectively combat the scourge of drugs in our communities;

 

(2)      how many non-governmental organisations and non-profit organisations are  funded by the department of social development in Gauteng?                                                             NO3225E

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, through you to hon member, as you will recall that President Jacob Zuma highlighted the challenges that the scourge of alcohol and substance abuse pose to our country and further called for a co-ordinated and intersectoral response. Our intervention in Eldorado Park, under the leadership of President Zuma, is a good example of what we can achieve when we work together to confront this scourge head on.

 

This government remains committed to combating the scourge of alcohol and substance abuse because of its devastating impact on individuals, families, communities and society as a whole. In 2010, Cabinet approved the establishment of the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, on combating alcohol and substance abuse, comprising of the Departments of Social Development, Transport, Sport and Recreation, Basic Education, Higher Education and Training, Health, Trade and Industry and Justice and Correctional Services.

 

I would like to emphasise that our approach and response to this scourge is anchored on the National Drug Master Plan with a strong emphasis on four pillars: Namely, prevention, early intervention, treatment, after care and reintegration. The National Drug Master Plan which is driven mainly by the Central Drug Authority, a multisectoral structure comprising of government, civil society and academic institutions. This approach allows for the involvement of all stakeholders from grassroots and community level to the national level. Provinces and national departments are guided by the plan to formulate their mini-drug master plans to implement prevention, early intervention and treatment.

 

The Central Drug Authority is charged with the responsibility to develop and implement a co-ordinated approach encompassing supply, control and demand reduction programmes. Provincial substance abuse forums have been established as well as local drug action committees which consist of social workers, teachers, justice and community representatives.

 

We have already started implementing the programme of the IMC. For instance, the Department of Health is looking into drugs control of marketing of Alcohol Beverages Bill. That is about marketing, promotion of alcohol in public places. Thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, the ANC remains committed to fight against substance and drug abuse within our communities. The utilisation of such substances has continued to impact negatively on the type of society we seek to build. The ANC has continuously engaged its members in South Africa at large to become active participants to campaign against the scourge of drug abuse, alcohol and substance abuse which is eroding the social public and cohesion of communities and families.

 

President Zuma in his state of the nation address in June 2014, committed to promote the healthy lifestyles and urge citizens to refrain from using drugs and alcohol. Minister, has there been any impact assessments on these interventions? If so, please unpack the outcomes of these impact assessments. Thank you.

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo, besingakakwenzi ukuhlolwa komthelela kodwa sigxile kakhulu ekwakhiweni kwezikhungo kuzo zonke izifundazwe ngoba kade kungekho lutho e-Eastern Cape kanye naseLimpopo - seziqediwe khona izikhungo.

 

Izindawo ezilandelayo ezizoqala ukwakha ngoZibandlela zimbili yi-Northern Cape kanye ne-North West futhi kufuneka sihalalisele i-North West ngoba yona izokwakha izikhungo ezimbili. Imali iphuma kuhulumeni kaZwelonke enye iphuma kuhulumeni wesiFundazwe. Lokhu kucacisa kahle ukuthi baluthathela phezulu ngokushesha udaba lokusetshenziswa kotshwala nezidakamizwa ngokweqile.

 

Okunye okulandelayo, kuyiqiniso ukuthi ukusebenzisa indlela edidiyelwe phecelezi “intergrated approach” kuyasiza kakhulu. Kufanele sazi ukuthi ngolwesiHlanu uMongameli uzobe ehola umkhankaso ozobe uya e-Eesterust eTshwane lapho kusetshenziswa utshwala nezidakamizwa ngokweqile. Okunye okubalulekile ukuthi izinhlangano zomphakathi zizobe zikhona futhi ziyazama ngoba akulula ukulwa nalokhu. Ziyazama ukuzibandakanya zibeyingxenye yalokhu ngoba uhulumeni uma esehambile endaweni kufanele umphakathi usale uqhubeka nohlelo.

 

Okunye okubalulekile, kungajabulisa kakhulu ukuthi izinkinga ezifana nalezi esibhekene nazo sizixazulule sonke sisebenzisane kungayi ngokuthi umuntu ukuliphi iqembu. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you Deputy Speaker, we have not done the impact assessment yet but we are mainly focussed on establishing the structures in all provinces as there were no structures in the Eastern Cape whilst they were already established in Limpopo.

 

The following, are the two places where we would start building structures in December: the Northern Cape and the North West whilst we must congratulate the North West as they will be building two structures. Funds for building these structures come from both the national and the provincial governments. This is a clear indication that they take the issue of drug and alcohol abuse seriously.

 

The other thing is that, it is true that the use of integrated approach helps a lot. You need to be informed that the President will be leading a campaign in Eesterust in Tshwane on Friday, where there is a scourge of drug and alcohol abuse. The other important thing is that community organisations will be present there and that they are trying their best as it is not easy to fight this. These organisations are trying their best to be part of this campaign because once the government leaves that area the community needs to continue with the programme.

 

One other thing is that it is very important for us to solve such problems that are facing us together irrespective of which political party one belongs to. Thank you. [Applause.]]

 

Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, through you to hon Minister, the fight against substance abuse requires a multisectoral and multifaceted approach which you have just outlined. Therefore, close corporation between your department and SA Police Service, SAPS, is a vital importance. However, the critical challenge in the fight against substance abuse is the fact that many road cops will inform drug lords prior to raids taking place or in some instances deal in drugs themselves. Such was the case recently when a metro police officer from Durban that was arrested at his home for packing cocaine into bags for distribution.

 

Firstly, Minister, are you aware of this which, of course, is not an isolated incident and considering the circumstances where you engage the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police to satisfy yourself that they have interventions in place, if any to root out rotten elements within the police force. Failure to do so will undermine all the efforts government has made so far in terms of fighting substance abuse. Thank you.

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga, okokuqala, sonke sihlale sibona ezindabeni ukuthi amaphoyisa abamba inqwaba yabantu abaqhamuka kwamanye amazwe belethe izidakamizwa eNingizimu Afrika. Okwesibili, siyazi futhi ukuthi amaphoyisa abanesikhathi lapho echitha khona bonke utshwala ababuthathe ezindaweni ezidayisa utshwala ngokungekho emthethweni. Okwesithathu, utshwala buyahlupha ngoba nalapha kukhona ababuphuzayo. Utshwala buphuzwa yonke indawo.[Ubuwelewele.] Ngakho-ke kufanele sizame ukubunciphisa. Yebo, yebo. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, firstly, we always see in the news police arresting scores of foreign nationals for trafficking drugs into South Africa. Secondly, we also know that from time to time police spill liquor that is confiscated from taverns which that are operating illegally. Thirdly, alcohol is problematic because even in here, there are people who are drinking it. Alcohol is drank everywhere. [Interjections.] Therefore, we need to decrease its availability. Yes, yes. [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! What you do outside of these walls is another matter, please, hon Minister.

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Uma singathi makubizwe amaphoyisa azothi, sifuthe, kungenzeka izimanga [Ubuwelewele.] Kulungile kodwa okubalulekile ukuthi kuzo zonke izindawo lapho sesinamakomidi khona sisebenzisa indlela edidiyelwe. Siyasebenzisana noMnyango wezeMpilo noMnyango wezoHwebo neziMboni njengoba sengishilo. UMnyango wezoHwebo neziMboni umatasatasa nokulalelwa kwezimvo zomphakathi ngomthetho ozoshaywa futhi neminye imithetho ezoshintsha ephathelene nokudayiswa kotshwala ezindaweni esihlala kuzona. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: If we can call the police, and take a breathalyser test, we will see surprises. [Interjections.] All is well but what is important is that in all the areas where committees are already established we are using an integrated approach. We are working together with the Departments of Health and Trade and Industry as I have already stated. The Department of Trade and Industry is busy conducting public hearings about the law that would be passed as well as others that would be amended that have to do with the selling of liquor in our areas of residence. [Applause.]]

 

Ms V KETABAHLE: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister: In 2014, the department made a call to nonprofit organisations, NPOs, to reregister on the department’s database for them to be recognised and be in a position to receive funding from government. This was after the department had deregistered 36 488 NPOs in 2013, purportedly because of the perception of the ANC government that NPOs were taking an oppositional role by exposing government’s inefficiencies. In the process of deregistering the 36 488 groups, it failed to follow the law and inform the organisations or allow them time to rectify the problem and appeal the decision.

 

The question is the following: Has the department reregistered all those NPOs it deregistered illegally? How much support does the department give to NPOs working in drug-riddled areas such as the Cape Flats, and how does it measure whether the initiatives of these NPOs are successful or not? Thank you.

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Somlomo, hhayi cha, bengingawuphendula umbuzo kodwa lo umbuzo omusha. Mangabe ilungu lifuna ukuwubuza, awuze ngesikhathi esilandelayo. Awubuzwa umbuzo omusha. Asifundisaneni emaqenjini  uma kukhona umuntu ofikayo, ukuze afunde ukuthi kwenziwa kanjani. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Oh no, Madam Speaker, I would answer the question but this is a new question. If the member wishes to ask it, it must come in the next questions slot. You cannot ask a new question. We need to educate each other in our parties - when there is a new member, educate him or her on how he or she should ask questions. [Interjections.]]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think the Minister must answer the question. [Interjections.] She must not run around. She must answer the question; it is a straight forward question. [Interjections.] It is a very straight forward question. Did you register them or not, Minister? It is a very easy question. Deputy Speaker, please, we are here to ask questions to the Ministers. We await the responses from the Ministers.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: With all due respect, I also didn’t get an answer to my question. I asked about substance abuse and whether the Minister will be engaging with the police. She spoke about alcohol abuse and people who should be taking breathalyser tests. I think she must point them out to us then because I specifically spoke about police officers who are personally involved in drug dealing. [Interjections.] I wasn’t talking about people who drink. Then she must show us the individuals who should take the breathalyser test.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: What is the purpose of us coming here and asking questions when Ministers, the custodians of the programmes, cannot respond to us or to the country regarding the challenges that the country faces? [Interjections.] The question is straight forward. Let the Minister respond to our questions.

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hhayi cha, ngiwuphendulile umbuzo ngasho ukuthi kune ... [Oh no, I have answered that question and said that there is ...]

 

... collaboration between the police; we work together with them. I mentioned the departments earlier and, if you ask the same question, it’s not my problem that you had organised your response or your question in a way that suits you. [Interjections.] Then ...

 

... okwesibili, vele namanje ngiyaphinda [Ubuwelewele] ngithi ngumbuzo omusha lo umayelana nama-NPOs futhi uma ngabe nifuna ukuwubuza, fakani omusha, ngizowuphendula. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[... secondly, of course I repeat [Interjections.] that this is a new question that is pertaining to the NPOs and that if you want to ask it, submit a new one and I will answer it.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Minister must tell us if she doesn’t have information relating to the question that was posed to her. The question is about NPOs and government assistance to NPOs. Let the Minister respond. The Minister must not beat around the bush. [Interjections.] If she doesn’t know, let the Minister say it: I don’t know.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we are going to move to the next one. [Interjections.] Usually, there ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: No! On a point of order, Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ngicela ungangiphazamisi. Awume kancane ngiphendule. Awume kancane. Ima kancane. [Do not disturb me, please. Wait a bit for my response. Wait a bit. Wait a bit.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Don’t say you are moving to the next question, please. We want an answer from the Minister who had just been elected the president of the ANC Women’s League.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, can I just respond first. [Interjections.] Hon members, it is a requisite that your questions must be linked to the question posed. It must not be a different, new question. It is linked so that is the general approach. Yes, hon member and hon Minister?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me give them the opportunity to respond.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, let me recognise those I have. You will get your chance. Hon Minister?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please come back and recognise me.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: My understanding of the follow-up question was that it asked about the number of NPOs. It also further referred to how many NPOs in the Western Cape; hence, it is a new question. It is not related. It is more detailed. It wants more detail; it is a new question.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a member behind you who raised a point of order before you.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The member has since said that the original question – I am sure she did not listen to the question and the follow-up. I want to give her context. There is nothing new, and questions that are followed up in any way have to be new. They have to follow up, and the question that was asked and which the Minister responded to was how many nongovernmental organisations or nonprofit organisations in Gauteng are funded by the Department of Social Development. A question is posed and followed up by the EFF to say that government had previously deregistered NPOs. Because they have a specific function and role to play, have you reregistered them? What is new about that? It is just a simple follow-up question on what has been asked here. [Interjections.] It is not out of line.

 

If this is the mediocrity that you promote to have Ministers come here and run away from questions, do we have to live like that? We come here to ask questions. A person who is supposed to be a president of women in the ANC cannot answer questions. We want them answered! You must the question, please.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Hon Minister, do you want to respond?

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: No. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Yes, hon member?

 

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Asizile ukuzodlala nawe. Sizosebenza lana, Sekela Somlomo. Mhlawumbe uwena ozodinga ukuhlolelwa utshwala. [Ubuwelewele.] Kungani umbuza ukuthi uyafuna noma akafuni ukuphendula? Umsebenzi wakhe nje ukuthi akaphendule. [Ubuwelewele] Kungani kufanele umbuze?

 

ISEKELA SOMLOMO: Awuthi ngikudayise. Awuhlale phansi-ke ngikudayise ngempela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr M M DLAMINI: We are not here to play games with you. We are here to work, Deputy Speaker. Maybe it is you who needs to take a breathalyser test. [Interjections.] Why are you asking her whether she wants to respond or not? Responding to questions is part of her duties. [Interjections.] Why are you asking her?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me sell you out. Take a seat then and let me really sell you out.]

 

Ms N R MOKOTO: Deputy Speaker, I think it is really unfair for members of the opposition to abuse the platform ... [Interjections.] ... and the privilege that they have in this House because we all understand that the Rule does not provide for members to raise completely new questions. It is also very bad for members to cast aspersions on the capacity of the Minister to answer questions in this House.

 

If the opposition wants to raise a completely new question, I think what must happen is that they must write and raise that question for the new session to consider that question, so it cannot be that the Minister has to be pressured and forced to come and answer questions just because she has been elected into the ANC Women’s League. [Interjections.] I think that is something that we must make a ruling on. Thank you.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member makes an allegation that we are casting aspersions. We are not. We have firm confidence that the Minister is capable. That is why we are asking her to answer the question. She is capable of answering the question. [Interjections.] In fact, there is nothing wrong with the Minister answering the question in whatever way, shape or form.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is another member before you.

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Motlatsammusakgotla, a ke go tlhalosetse ka Setswana gore o kgone go utlwa sentle. Re bua jana re a re: Potso e, ke potso e e tlhagelelang fano. Ka gonne Tona a tlhophilwe ka lebaka la go itse dikgang tsa gagwe, o tshwanetse gore a ikarabele mo lefapheng la gagwe. O tshwanetse go tlogela go tila kgotsa go potapota potso fela e e ntseng sentle. Jaanong, Motlatsammusakgotla, gonne o tlhaloganya Setswana, ke solofela gore o utlwile tlhaloso yame le gore o tla kgona go mo tlhalosetsa.

 

MOTLATSA MMUSAKGOTLA: Leloko le le tlotlegang, Tona o arabile. Ga ke kgone go tsenya dikarabo mo molomong wa gagwe. Ke kopa gore re tswelelepele. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follow.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, let me explain to you in Setswana so that you can fully understand me. We are saying that we have a question here. Since, the Minister was appointed as a result of her expertise, she has to be responsible for her department. She must not run around the bush; she has to answer a question that is clear. Now, Deputy Speaker, you know Setswana and I hope that you understood me and that you will explain to the Minister.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the Minister has responded. I cannot tell the Minister what to say. May we continue please.]

 

Hon De Kock, last supplementary question?

 

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, let us just conclude by saying the Minister does not have answers to our questions. By the way, this is not the first time. Last term, she also failed to answer a simple question ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maxon! Hon Maxon, I am not going to ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: ... about a woman in Johannesburg who was beaten by her department’s officials.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon De Kock ...

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am sorry. Yes, he did rise. Yes, go ahead.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, I think that you must rescue us. You must make the ruling on whether a question is new or not and protect the Minister. Now, by asking whether she wants to respond, you then imply that the question was not new. You cannot give her that option. When you ask her whether she wants to respond, you then say that the question is not new. I think you must help us in that regard. It cannot just be willy-nilly with people saying questions are new; it is incumbent on the Chairperson to draw that conclusion.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much for your advice, hon member. The Minister could have answered that easily. I posed it so that she could use her discretion. She didn’t answer it; she told you that she would not answer it. Unfortunately, I cannot force her to answer it. We do expect members to respond and question asked be responded to in the manner in which the Minister does. It is always better that the answers are given, and she has given you an answer. Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, it is not up to me to ensure that you like it. Proceed, hon member.

Ms K DE KOCK: Hon Minister, I think first thing ... [Interjections.]

 

Dr H CHEWANE on a point of order: Hon Minister, hon Deputy Speaker, I think this will assist ruling in the future. I think it must be noted that failure of Ministers to answer questions is tantamount to not performing their functions. I think you should ... [Interjections.] ... that as a Chair you are promoting a situation where we are not able to perform our functions here at Parliament because we can’t go and prepare questions ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU on a point of order: Hon Speaker! Hon Speaker! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Please, let us not repeat the request that you must speak only when you are recognised, otherwise, you create an impossible situation. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU on a point of order: Deputy Speaker, you must stop this thing of switching off our microphones. [Interjections.] You must stop this thing ... because you have no right, there is no power, and there is no rule that gives you the power to switch off our microphones. You must note that thing. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Let me explain to you in the first place. Let me explain to you. [Interjections.] Hon Shivhambu, when the Chair speaks to you, according to the Rules, you must sit down and listen. [Interjections.] If you don’t you have no responsibility for ... [Interjections.] ...

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: That thing is not in the Rules. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No I can, that is why it is here. No, hon Shivhambu ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: There is no rule that allows you to switch off a microphone. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivhambu: You were defying the Chair ...

 

[Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: However, there is no rule that allows you to switch off a microphone. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. No. No. Please take you seat hon member! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: But you must not switch off the microphone. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t speak without permission, as you like, when you like, because it is you. It is not correct. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: But you must not switch off the microphones.

[Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will not switch it off if you stop. As simple as all that. [Interjections.]

 

Hon MEMBERS: Uyadelela. [You are mischievous.] [Interjections.] [Applaud.]

 

Ms K DE KOCK: Hon Minister, I think ... [Interjections.] ... congratulations on your appointment as President of the ANC Women’s League. [Interjections.] We hope you are more successful in this new position than you are on running this department. [Interjections.] In terms of substance abuse, it is really sprawling out of control. In fact, it is a crisis in almost all communities. It is not only a crisis in Eldorado Park or the few communities that you mentioned. Clearly the drug master plan that you are mentioning is not working in combating substance abuse.

 

You were speaking of the integrative approach but in your own report the municipal and the provincial committees are not reporting regularly to the department. In your own report, almost 70% of the nonprofit organisations, NPO, are noncompliant and we are not able to transfer funds to them. So, can you tell this House which three emergency steps your department will take to address substance abuse and how will you measure its success?

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Even the Western Cape is supposed to report on the drug master plan of the province. All provinces are supposed to report. However, I said there are areas that we have decided to priorities; buildings, treatment centres, ... [Interjections.]

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: But that is not the question!

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Oh. No, but look ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, please give the Minister an opportunity to answer you. [Interjection.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, because you will be complaining. Let the Minister finish and then you can complain afterwards.

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the issue of NPOs and nongovernmental organisation, NGO, – most of the NPOs and Congressional Budget Offices, CBO, that could not account were small organisations that work very hard wherever they are. That is why I put a moratorium on deregistration. They are still working until today. I decided that people from the department will travel throughout the country to help them write proper reports. That is what we are doing and that is what we have done. It has been all over - it is in the newspapers. So, there is no NPO, CBO or NGO that has been closed.

 

Lastly, when you form an NPO you should also raise funds from other sources, you don’t get funds from government only. I think we all know about that. Thank you.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Deputy Speaker, with absolute respect, what the Minister has just said has got nothing to do with the question that was asked. The hon De Kock asked her what three emergencies steps she is going to address the issue of substance abuse. Is the Minister deliberately antagonising and undermining this House by deliberately obfuscating or giving no answers? Or does she just not know the answer, in which case it is extremely concerning that the hon Minister is sitting in Cabinet. [Interjection.]

 

The SPEAKER: Sorry, hon Minister, can you take your seat for a while?

 

Mr M BOOI on a point of order: Quite clearly hon Speaker, it is not us – I mean they are not really responding to what is exactly happening. However, continuously casting aspersions on Ministers on how they sit in Cabinet when they don’t appoint themselves – they are being appointed by the President – I don’t understand what the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition Party is trying to raise. He can’t continue to attack Ministers. The Minister is putting across ... why would she understand the matter itself? She has knowledge about it and she is giving answers. However, it can’t be that continuously the opposition thinks that individual Ministers – or casting generic manner that Ministers might be seen as if they don’t know what to do. It can’t be generalised. [Interjections.] A generalised position is taken. You’d better sit down. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister! [Interjections.]

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: No, point of order Chair! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister! [Interjections.]

 

Mr M BOOI: You can’t threaten me. You can’t threaten me here. [Interjections.]

 

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Chairperson, I would really like to update this House on yesterday’s football match between Pirates – because I think we can talk about anything; because at this stage the Minister is not answering the questions, we might as well discuss anything that is on the table. There is a direct question that has been asked about ... [Inaudible.] ... I would request that she answers the question. Otherwise she might as well update us on football and other things. I apologise hon Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister was ... she is answering the question.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, I know ...

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: This is precisely the reason that you were saying when questions are posed to the executive they need to be answered because now there is a tendency that it seems like Presiding Officers are protecting hon Ministers when they need to be accountable to the country about issues of their departments. The issue of drugs in this country is a very serious problem. In a climate of unemployment, this is a serious problem in communities and we are sitting with a Minister who does not know how to deal with the question. We are posing questions in Parliament and you as the Speaker need to be able to make sure that Ministers are able to make sure that Ministers are able to respond to those questions. How do we place confidence in Ministers who do not know the basic functions of their departments? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am afraid by your ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M DLAMINI on a point of order Deputy Chair: I just want to direct my point of order to that hon member. He must not come here and tell us that Ministers are appointed by President Zuma. It cannot be true. [inaudible.] ... Ministers are here to [Inaudible.] You must respond, please. We must not be told that they are appointed by President Zuma and they only respond to him ... [Inaudible.] ... then they must go. [Interjections.]

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker! ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! No! No! No! You are stopping ... All of you are stopping the Minister from responding. Take your seat!  Let the Minister respond. It is you who stops the Minister from responding. [Interjections.]

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I please address you? [Interjections.] Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to bring to your attention that on numerous occasions, members from this House are calling on this Minister to arrest to arrest hon Maimane for being a drug dealer. I think that is a very serious allegation that has been labelled against him coming - from this side of the House. I think the members who are calling on him to be arrested for drug dealing – it is a very serious allegation and they must own up. You can call the leader of an official opposition a drug dealer. Yes. [Interjections.]

 

The Deputy Speaker: Hon members, who said that? [Interjections.] Hon members, who said that? [Interjections.] Hon members, can you stop making irresponsible remarks in the House, please? Please, stop making irresponsible remarks. Can we allow the Minister to respond?

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I wasn’t forced to answer the question on NGOs. However, I did say that we have put a moratorium and there is a roadshow throughout the country to help NGOs account. Firstly, [Interjections.]

 

The Speaker: Order hon members! Order! [Interjection.]

 

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Please! Men mustn’t harass me. [Interjections.] If you harass women that side, don’t harass me. [Interjections.] Firstly, we are going to have a conference to relook into the programme of action. [Interjections.] Secondly, we are working with communities to fight the scourge of alcohol and drug abuse. Thirdly, all communities must have committees to deal with the issue and also follow proper procedures for implementing the campaign of alcohol and substance abuse. [Interjections.]

 

Empeleni, umuntu ngamunye lapha kufanele ngabe uyasho ukuthi wenzani ukulwisana nokusetshenziswa kotshwala nezidakamizwa ngokweqile. Singeke sizomemeza ngoba sifuna ukuvela kumabonakude. [Ubuwelewele.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[In fact, each one of us in here is supposed to be telling what he or she is doing in fighting drug and alcohol abuse. And not come to shout here just because we want to appear on the television. [Interjections.]]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I didn’t want to interrupt the Minister because at last we were getting an answer. However, I do want to make the point that in her prequel to her answer she accused members of this side of the House of harassing women. [Interjections.] Now, I’ll ask if that is parliamentary, particularly coming from the woman whose organisation supports ukuthwala, which is the worst source of harassment of women in this country.

 

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you? The hon Minister said if that is what you do you will not do it to us. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Increased capacity of Nsami Water Treatment Plant to reduce growing pressure on Nsami Dam

 

289.        Mr T Makondo (ANC) asked the Minister of Water and Sanitation:

 

With reference to President Zuma’s commitment in Parliament in 2014 that residents of Giyani will receive water by the end of September (details furnished) and the reply of the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs to question 204 on 27 February 2015, (a) when is it expected that water to the increased capacity of the Nsami Water Treatment Plant from Nandoni will reduce growing pressure on the  Nsami Dam which is currently at below 50% and (b) whether the Nandoni Project will cater for residents of Malamulele who are just beside Nandoni but not getting water?                                                                                                  NO3248E

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker and hon members, the need for the transfer of water from the Nandoni Dam has arisen as a result of the critical shortage of water to Giyani due to the hydrological failure of the Middle Letaba and Nsami dams during a prolonged drought experienced in the area.

 

The transfer canal from the Middle Letaba Dam that was constructed to augment the water supply to the Nsami water treatment works could not sustainably operate at full capacity. What we then did as the department was to conduct a prefeasibility assessment report which recommended the implementation options. The prefeasibility or technical investigation recommended the following:

 

Firstly, that the Nandoni treatment works be upgraded to more than 120 megalitres per day in alignment with the required water demand for Giyani;

 

Secondly, to reduce the growing pressure from Nsami Dam and potable water to be pumped on a dedicated pipe line to the command reservoir in Giyani, as well as to supply water to the neighboring villages; and

 

Lastly, another pipeline has to be constructed from the Nandoni water treatment works to serve the communities between Nandoni and Malamulele that do not have potable water.

 

Ms C DUDLEY: My apologies, Deputy Speaker. I thought you said Question 315. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’m sorry. Hon Mbatha? [Interjections.]

 

Mr T MAKONDO: Deputy Speaker, I thought I am entitled to a follow up question. Hon Minister, can you share with this House when the project is expected to start, and what benefits are the affected areas going to get during the implementation of the project and after its completion? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The benefits in the construction period are going to be, amongst others, the skills transfer that is going to emanate from the partnership that is going to be forged between the established contractors and those coming from the neighbouring community; and there is also going to be short-term employment opportunities whilst the project will be running for a period of two years before completion. We anticipate that the project will start in the last quarter of the 2015-16 financial year. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Msibi? [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Not you!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there’s a list. Go ahead, hon member.

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Before we go further, on a point of order: Can you please ask the hon members here to stop switching off the mic while we are trying to speak?

 

An HON MEMBER: It was the Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Deputy Speaker, it’s not the first time that this has happened. [Interjections.] It’s not the first time that this member has done that. [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: You are the one who is turning off the mics. It’s not us in these benches. So the hon member must withdraw that comment because it’s not us. It’s not us. If the member wants a position in the ANC let him go and canvas elsewhere but not on this platform. You are switching off mics, not EFF members. [Interjections.]

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the member is misleading this House. [Interjections.] She has done this repeatedly.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what is your question? Do you have a follow up question?

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Okay, hon Deputy Speaker. My question to the Minister is the following. With regard to the latest report, the Department of Water and Sanitation has underspent in terms of the first quarter of the new year. Can you please tell us how this is going to impact on progress in terms of water supply with regard to the dam that you’ve just spoken about?

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much. The underspend in the first quarter had to do with the verification of the project, and I’m sure the hon member can also acknowledge that the indicators in the second quarter and the projections moving beyond actually indicate the possibility of spending within the allocated amounts.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha?

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo ... [Thank you, Chairperson.]

 

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think we have been advised that if we want to ask follow up questions we must press the button.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, you have pressed and your name is here. You are the last one.

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Sir, the point I want to make is the following. If you call for Ms Msibi and Mr Naidoo stands up, how is that relevant? How does that help us in seeing who is pressing the button? I pressed the button but then you called for Ms Msibi, yet this one stood up. [Interjections.] Order, please Chair ... please ... [Inaudible.] Now you are calling for Mr Mbatha but Ms Khawula stands up. What’s the point of us pressing the button when you are not ... Please Sir, the House must be run in an orderly fashion.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota, these are members who are doing that. I am following what is here. So when members decide to defer to each other I can’t stop them from doing that because they are from the same party. In any case, members are sitting on each others seats. That is the problem. So I can’t force people to speak if their names are called. What’s your complaint now, hon Lekota?

 

Mr M G P LEKOTA:: The point I want to make is that the decorum of the House must be kept and the Speaker, Deputy Speaker or whoever is presiding will leave many of us dissatisfied when a person who is not here is called and somebody else stands up. All of us must maintain discipline. It’s very humiliating that I am pressing here but my name is not called, while people who are not here are being called and somebody else ... [Inaudible.] The Presiding Officers must not allow disorder of this nature.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the implications are that members who do that ... and hon Lekota, you’re right that members who just rise and who do not explain why they are rising, when they are not the persons called in the first place, creates a problem for us. And that is a problem of being reasonable, assuming that they pressed the wrong button and that they are standing. We will insist that it not be the case, hon members. You require that we follow the process, strictly speaking. Earlier on an hon member from the EFF wanted to ... I pointed him out and he chose to defer to his Chief Whip. Do you want me to stop them from doing that, hon Lekota? [Interjections.] Alright. This is very democratic here. You say so and I will strictly exercise that; strictly!

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with us as Members of Parliament from one political party deferring to other members when there are certain follow up questions. There is nothing wrong. It’s the same question. The issue is that we allocate questions to the members who are sitting in those committees. We know that this is rush-rush, so whoever presses first ultimately gets recognised first. So if I have pressed first and the member who is relevant is hon Khawula, she must rightfully be the one who asks the question. This has been a practice which is not destructive. The only problem is when a party has pressed the button and some other political party asks a question in the place of that political party. I don’t think there can be a problem with the practice that has been in place for a long time.

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, I actually raised my hand to speak and express concern to what you said and responded to the hon Lekota that we now want you to be strict. Part of our problem in this House is that you have not been strict as presiding officers. We would ask that you do observe the Rules. All members in this House are able to press from their seats and should do so. The presiding officers must help us to have order in this House.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Chair: Can we be referred to a specific Rule that the hon Minister is referring to? It is also important that people must not just stand up and talk whatever they want. They must refer us to something. Where is the Rule? Where is the Rule?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like us to conduct our affairs properly. When we spoke about time allocation this is exactly the point that we were talking about. Members do not follow the Rules as required. One of the requirements is that, for example, I must stop you literally so that you are unable to proceed. The implications are serious. The system as organised here is such that it will enable us to do that. So, I plead with you. Hon Lekota, I want to illustrate this, there are 10 people. So, I can’t in any case. Even if you are in the list it does not mean that automatically you are there. Even if you say that you see someone else whose name was not there, I appreciate that. The important thing that I’m raising is that the application of the Rules is something difficult to carry out, members. Now and then we will have situations where for whatever reason we will have to do exactly as required and it is not going to be appropriate in certain circumstances, but we will do it. And I am suggesting that we proceed. The matter of deviation of the application of the Rules as is required must be discussed in the forum.

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, thank you for allowing me to address you ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: Sengingaqala ... [Can I start ... [Interjections.]]

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, the Rules indicate that, in terms of a member speaking [Interjections.] you should look for it because you should have read it beforehand. The members asked me to site the Rule because they are so knowledgeable. So, they know the Rules. Calling of members is in terms of a list when there is a speakers’ list. That is in Rule 59, otherwise Rule 72, which I was referring to, indicates that:

 

A member may speak when called upon to do so by the presiding officer.

 

Thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, can we quickly and urgently attend to that mutilation and wrong interpretation of the Rules. That thing that was just read does not say anything regarding pressing the button. We are speaking about pressing the button. As a party we can say to the Speaker that we are not taking the question and we are deferring it to a different member. And that has been practiced since we have arrived here. Don’t be opportunistic we have a sense of respect as compared to most of your colleagues. Don’t degenerate, please.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I want to stop this. Hon Zulu, hon Zulu ... [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member!

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS: Hon Deputy Speaker, that’s exactly the reason why am standing up. Rule 70, for those who care to read, it states that members are not allowed to stand up and speak anyhow without being given the permission to speak. Secondly, hon Pandor has referred to the Rules. I am asking that members must stick to the Rules. I said it before. We are capable of standing up and speak anyhow we want, but we respect the Rules of the House.

 

The hon members in the opposite side must also understand that these Rules adopted include them too. We request that nobody must stand up and speak anything and anyhow they want without being given permission by the Deputy Speaker because they are making a mockery of the Rules, also they are making a mockery of this House. We are getting tired of these things.

 

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I ask that we proceed, please. The only people who are winning out of this debate are the Ministers who are going to escape from getting questions put to them today as we are running out of time. We have only two hours. We can have this debate in another forum. Please, could we put our questions to the Ministers which is what we are here to do today.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I don’t think you are right when you say that the people who will escape. That’s a bad word to refer to; it’s incorrect.

 

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, we just want to clarify this thing of hon Zulu who come here and grandstand and give us wrong Rules. There is no Rule that talks about pressing of the button here. We are very clear about the Rules. We are not expecting anything from Zulu.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, be careful about your language. Could you please, be respectful. I have noticed that tempers are getting out of order

 

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, I think the first thing that must be done is that, please, don’t recognise people because they are on their feet. Please, don’t do that, sir. Allow us to raise our hands whilst quiet. We must all be quiet and raise our hands. Choose who you want to recognise. And only such a person must then stand up and speak. Please, take your time on that issue. But I would like to urge, if I may, that this matter be referred to the Chief Whips’ Forum for discussion or something for the purpose of this afternoon to proceed. Don’t let somebody speak who has not been recognised by you from your list. Please, sir.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The requirement of a supplementary question is that we press the to talk button so that you can... [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank you for the correction that you put across to the hon Westhuizen and I would like him to withdraw that. Ministers are here to answer questions and the implication is that they are ready to run away and escape. The word escape is inappropriate and I would like him to please, withdraw that.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, the word escape and the intention there is a political statement and I am not going to withdraw it as much as the hon Minister would like to stand on her head and say so; I will not. And it is hon Steenhuisen and not ysterhuisen.

 

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT: Whatever! Deputy Speaker, I am appealing to you, I would like you to find time to look at this and give the necessary judgment. I still maintain that there is a request to withdraw. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can I draw your attention to the fact that there are questions that are before us which are meant to be responded to. I said earlier on that you are creating a situation where most of the time goes towards listening to you and your points of order and prevent the business of the House to proceed.

 

In the process the language you are using and how you are talking to each other is inappropriate and is wrong. We will look at the Hansard and make a ruling on these matters.

Mr A M MATHLOKO: On a point of order.

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, are you telling me that you refuse to withdraw, and are you telling me before I say anything about the ruling? I think this is inappropriate from your part. I suggest ... [Interjections.] I don’t believe that.

 

Hon Mbatha, it was your turn, sir – it was hon Mbatha. No, hon member, you have just made a ruling yourselves and I’m going according to it.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... AND I’M GOING ACCORDING TO IT.

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: Mana ke ... [Just wait ...]

 

Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: You never made the ruling!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, hon members ...

 

Mr M S MBATHA: You never made the ruling, Deputy Speaker!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s proceed. You are here, hon Mbatha. Ask your supplementary question.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, the question is deferred to the hon Khawula. That is how we have been operating and there is no other way or any Rule that has been passed ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... that changes that. So, the hon Khawula is going to ask the question. Hon Khawula. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no! [Interjections.] You see ... hon Shivambu, please take your seat. [Interjections.] The next person on the list is ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: But, Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, please ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: ... the hon Lekota made a suggestion that I thought ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Dr H CHEWANE: The hon Lekota made a suggestion that these issues be taken to the Chief Whips’ Forum ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: ... and reported back to Parliament. To the extent that the Chief Whips’ Forum has not sat, I think the House must proceed in the manner in which it was proceeding before. [Interjections.] We are saying that questions are owned by political parties. Political parties do have a right to defer questions to their colleagues, and ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: ... that is the order in which we are going to proceed.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: And we must proceed like that.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Otherwise, Deputy Speaker, you are the one who is going to collapse this discussion - I mean, the plenary, today.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... No, don’t do that. Proceed.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, can I ask the question now?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead. Finish.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Thank you. Last year, hon Minister, the President said that by October 2014, the villagers in Giyani would all have been offered water. You are saying now that the villages in Giyani still do not have water. When are the villages in Giyani going to have water? I don’t mean a political statement, but water! [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: If you are smarter and intelligent, you will understand the answer. [Interjections.] Listen to me. [Interjections.] The question here ...

 

Mr M S MBATHA: That’s casting aspersions on the member! [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I do! I do! I do cast aspersions ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... please take your seats. I’ll respond to that, yes. Go ahead, hon Minister. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please finish what you are doing.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The Minister says that if the member is smarter and intelligent, he will understand. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Yes!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: In reverse, that says that the member is a fool or is stupid ... [Interjections.] ... and that is not parliamentary. You cannot allow ... So, Nomvula must withdraw what she has just said. [Interjections.] We are asking a simple question that your President, who does not know anything about intelligence, who was trying to talk about other people, came here to say that there is going to be water in Giyani. [Interjections.] There is no water in Giyani ...

 

An HON MEMBER: You are lying!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... in all the villages there. He came here to promise that, by October last year, there would be water. [Interjections.] There is no water! She must answer questions and stop trying to jab people from the sidelines! [Interjections.] Answer the question, and stop these things they are doing, sir! [Interjections.] You must answer the question!

 

An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, take your seat.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

 

XIRHO: Mati ma kona! [There is water.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, the members of the executive are in this House. They came for one thing – to respond to questions to members. We are constantly accused, in the Chief Whips’ Forum and the National Assembly Programming Committee meetings that we protect our Ministers; we don’t want them to come to the House to respond to questions. So, please, recognise those who are supposed to respond to questions, and no one else. It doesn’t matter whether the Minister responds in a way that the member would agree with, or not. The fact of the matter is that the response will be given. Thank you.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s allow ... Yes?

 

Mr M S MBATHA: I am the injured party here.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What injury? Do you expect the Minister to respond to you, hon member?

 

Mr M S MBATHA: No. I am asking her to withdraw what she said. [Interjections.] I am just asking that she withdraw what she said. I am the injured party here!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I warned you earlier on that we want to proceed with the proceedings of the House. I warned you about the language you are exchanging, and I’m suggesting that we proceed ... [Interjections.] No, we will rule. [Interjections.] We will rule. [Interjections.] No, hon members! Can you please take your seats? Minister, will you answer the issues, please? No. Go ahead, hon Minister. Please answer the question.

 

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we allow her to ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: No! You must rule on what the Minister said! [Interjections.] She said ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I will rule.

 

Ms H O MAXON: ... the hon Mbatha is unintelligent and is not smart. [Interjections.] Is that parliamentary? You must rule on that one.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: It’s the same Minister who said to people of Gauteng she does not want dirty votes! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Listen, hon members, please, man. Look at yourself! Can you allow us to read the Hansard and make a ruling on the basis of expressly what was stated in the House on those matters?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because I want us to proceed ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: When a point of order is raised about what a member is saying, the simple procedure to engage in is to check if the member is confirming what we said they said. [Interjections.] Then, she can withdraw. In fact, we heard her – all of us!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: If she wants to distance herself, no problem, we will proceed ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... but check with her and then make a ruling ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ...on if it is parliamentary to say that someone is unintelligent and not sophisticated like they are there!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You can say that every time. If it’s parliamentary, no problem.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Just make a ruling, so that we know how we proceed on it.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much for your advice, hon member. I will consider it next time. Please, hon Minister, respond. [Interjections.] Hon members, please don’t defer to each other. Allow me to choose who must speak!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please, just allow me to choose who must speak, hon members. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, can you please treat us fairly? We are begging you. Treat us fairly. Apply the Rules of the House.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Fairly.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: On all political parties.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes - and one of those Rules is that you obey the instructions of the Chair. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Yes, but you won’t obey yourself! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I want the answers to be given to the House, please. Go ahead, hon Minister. Please respond.

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, more than 27 villages already have water, based on the pronouncement that was made by President Jacob Zuma. [Interjections.] What we are responding to today is about the extension and upgrading of a dam, which would then go beyond what we have been able to intervene on. If the hon members recall what has been presented in the portfolio committee meetings, in this House, and on the oversight visits that the portfolio committee would have paid, they would be intelligent enough not to ask this question.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon members ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: You know, Nomvula takes us for granted. She thinks that she’s Zuma, who she has offered her bum to.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member. No, man. Please. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You can’t ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... like that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Why is it that when we ask questions, she says it’s an unintelligent question? Why can’t she just simply answer the question? We have asked the question.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: She doesn’t have an answer! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have disputed it. Allow me to come back with a ruling.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, but why do you allow her to repeat the same thing when you know we have been saying to you to make a ruling on it? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The political language you are using in this House, hon members, will create problems. So, don’t assume that because, today, it’s you, when you, yourself, know in what you are saying and the language you are using, you are simply inflaming ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You only hear what I am saying. You can’t hear what Nomvula is saying! [Interjections.] You only listen to what we are saying and what is wrong from us, only. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Please take your seat, hon member. Please.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you must make a ruling! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members. Please take your seat. Yes?

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are not in this Parliament to listen to insults. [Interjections.] We are being insulted in this Parliament. The President is not in the House, but he is being insulted. So is the Minister. The hon Shivambu called her by her first name. We have hon members in this House ... [Interjections.] ... so, it doesn’t matter whether we are angry or not, we need to respect each other. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy Speaker lease allow us to continue with the question session. Please, hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota.

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. I have asked the hon Lekota to speak. He has got a supplementary question to ask.

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Why do you allow the Ministers to insult us and then, when we talk back to them, you follow us? [Interjections.] You would know they are insulting us. You can’t do that, Deputy Speaker. You can’t do that!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I haven’t ignored anything. I haven’t ignored anything.

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: You are ignoring Minister Nomvula there!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon ...

 

Mr P G MOTEKA: She has been insulting us nonstop! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, take your seat. Hon Lekota. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, in the light of the Minister’s indication that the supply of water is not yet there, is government doing anything to subsidise any of the worst affected areas in respect of water supply, to purchase tanks so that rain harvesting can become a significant means of enhancing water supply whilst the construction of the pipes is under way?

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, yes. There is the provision of emergency services, of water supplied through the water tanks. In addition, the issues of rain harvesting and other means, including the exploration of ground water, are some of the interventions that we are looking at beyond just the provision of potable water from the dam that is being upgraded. Thank you.

 

Particulars regarding completion and publication of Blue and Green Drop reports

 

315.        Mr L J Basson (DA) asked the Minister of Water and Sanitation:

 

Whether, with reference to her reply to question 1631 on 22 May 2015, her department completed the Blue and Green Drop reports by the end of June 2015; if not, (a) why not and (b) when will the specified reports be completed; if so, (i) how does the general performance of municipalities compare to the 2012-13 financial year results and (ii) when will the specified reports be published?                             NO3388E

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, with regard to this particular issue: yes, we have completed the quality assurance of the blue and green drop reports as indicated in the questions of 22 May 2015. We are considering the reports, and we’ll communicate a date for the release of the reports by the end of September 2015. The specified reports are already complete. A detailed comparative analysis is contained within the reports. Lastly, the estimated date for publication, as I indicated earlier, will be the end of September. Thank you.

 

Mr L J BASSON: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, in 2013 a third of all sewer plants were classified as being in crisis. But the 2012-13 report wasn’t even released in full. Do you withhold these reports from the public because you are too embarrassed to show the extent to which the ANC has mismanaged our water infrastructure and, if that is not the case, why don’t you release the full report in the public domain?

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The precedence in the department is that there is a particular period when these reports are released, and the month of September becomes the appropriate month to release these reports. So whether the hon member believes we are withholding, for one reason or another, is immaterial to me. The response we gave is that we said we would release a complete report that would then assist us, including working together with local authorities as part of the Back to Basics programme in dealing with their capacity including their resource plans. Thanks.

 

Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, while the AfriForum green drop report shows significant improvement in access control to sites and that 15 of 58 sewerage systems have improved dramatically, too many municipalities still denied them access to sample and waste water. Now, since such investigations benefit communities and save government money, what can you, as the Minister, do to ensure access is given, and will you be taking steps in that direction? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, access to the treatment plants has to be granted through local authorities. What is important is that all those who have an interest in doing any test have to establish a relationship with local authorities so that there can be co-operation and an attempt to make sure that whatever is being done is being done in the best interests of ensuring that you have better management of the treatment plants.

 

What I can do, and we are continuing to do, is to work together with local authorities. But I would also advise AfriForum not to go in as if they are a rival of a local authority, and to co-operate and be part of the water forum in that municipality so that they can have access to this information. I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha.

 

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Thanks, Deputy Speaker. Minister ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SEAKER: Hon Mulaudzi, you are not Mbatha and you are in the House. Sorry. [Interjections.]

 

Mr T E MULAUDZI: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY SEAKER: No, no. You can’t do that. Hon Mnguni?

 

Mr D MNGUNI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, from the inception of the blue and green drop initiatives, what are the major challenges and achievements of the programme? And, moving forward, how will compliance by municipalities be strengthened in attaining the principles of these? I thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The green drop and the blue drop process actually assists in terms of better management of our own water services. It also assists in picking up the capacity of local authorities and those that are responsible for management. Also, in collaboration with the Department of Environmental Affairs, we are able to track down the polluters and make interventions in terms of penalties and any other means of applying consequences to the polluter.

 

The last aspect is that in collaboration with other organs of state, through the intergovernmental relations framework, we are also using the blue drop and the green drop programme to project the status of water quality in South Africa. Through that we are even able to attract investment in terms of interventions where there are challenges and make milestones in terms of what we have put together around the Millennium Development Goals and the incoming sustainable development goals that will be adopted by the United Nations. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, nami besenginenkinga ukuthi igama lami kungani ungaliboni ngoba ngiqala ekuqaleni. [Ubuwelewele.] Sekela Somlomo, ngithi angibuze la kuNgqongqoshe, umhlonishwa ukuthi inkinga yamanzi yaseGiyani yaqala mhla kuxhunywa ipayipi elaqhuma. UMnyango wathathela inkontileka izinyathelo ngokufaka ipayipi elalishibhile.

 

Umbuzo wami-ke wokugcina ukuthi, uMnyango usuyitholile yini imali le yabakhokhi bentela eyayixhashazwe ilomuntu owayefakela abantu balaphaya izinto ezishibhile? Bese ngibuyela lapha kumhlonishwa wami uDlamini. [Kwaphela sikhathi.] Mana, ngifuna ukubonga nje. Masilweni silwele abantu besifazane futhi masilweni notshwala, Ngqongqoshe. Asibufuni. (Translation of isiZulu questions follow.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, I was also a having a problem as to why you didn’t find my name because I am the first one. [Interjections.] Deputy Speaker, let me ask this to the Minister; since the problem of water in Giyani began with the bursting of the water pipe that was installed, did the department take actions against the construction company that installed a pipe of lower quality.

 

My last question is, did the department get back the tax payers money from the person who installed pipes of lower quality? [Time expired.] Wait, I would like to express my gratitude. Let us fight for the women and let us also fight against alcohol, Minister. We don’t want it.]

 

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Yes ...

 

Osonkontileka labo ababesebenza lapho eGiyani, sekunophenyo oluqhubekayo, abanye babo bangabaholi bamanye amaqembu akhona la. Sethemba-ke ukuthi laba abaphenyayo bazosisiza ngoba bazuza ngokuthi bangasizi ngokuthi bafakele amapayipi azosizana nomphakathi ukuthi uthole amanzi ahlanzekile. Engingakusho ngamafuphi nje, sesisebenzise imali engaphezu kwale yalabo abekade benza umkhonyovu abesebe yizuzile. Kepha ke ngoba siyazi ukuthi ingalo yomthetho yinde, siyabazi, futhi ngoba sengishilo, abanye babo abaholi balamaqembu akhona lana awuhlupho. Ngiyabona. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Those building constructors who were working in Giyani are under investigation that is underway, some of them are the leaders of some of the political parties that are here. We hope then that the investigators will help us because they gained by supplying pipes of lower quality without assisting the community to get clean water. In short, we have spent more money than the initial money that was defrauded by the building constructors. However, we know that the arm of law is too long, we know them, and as I have already said, some of them are the leaders of the political parties which o are troublesome here. Thank you.]

 

Assessment of impact of new immigration regulations on higher education and training

 

266.        Ms S Mchunu (ANC) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:

 

Whether his department has done any assessment on how the new immigration regulations will impact on higher education and training in particular with regard to (a) the enrolment of foreign students as per the Southern African Development Community Protocol on Education and Training and other countries, (b) the (i) appointment of foreign nationals by the country’s universities and (ii) relocation of their families and (c) the President’s announcement on relaxing immigration regulations in order to attract critical skills?                                                                                                                      NO3221E

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Deputy Speaker, the department has not done an assessment on the potential of the new immigration regulations. Since the Southern African Development Community Protocol on Education and Training came into place in 1999, South African universities have been comfortably meeting the target of enrolling 5% of our overall student enrolments from Southern African Development Community, SADC, and averaging an overall foreign student enrolment of 7%. Therefore, it would be easy to determine the negative impact of the immigration laws should this arise.

 

The officials from my department have been in discussions with officials from the Department of Home Affairs on the likely impact the new immigration laws could have on the recruitment of foreign academics, postdoctoral fellows, students and the general inward movement of academics, as well as the relocation of their families - especially those with skills scarce to our country.

 

The department also provides inputs to the scarce-skills list utilised by the Department of Home Affairs in consideration of visa applications from foreign nationals. The Higher Education South Africa, Hesa, now known as Universities South Africa, has also had direct contact with the Department of Home Affairs, aimed at addressing any likely impact the immigration laws might have on the higher education sector.

 

Ms S MCHUNU: Hon Deputy Speaker and Minister, thank you for the response. According to the University World News, South Africa is the regional and continental hub in higher education and is ranked 14th as a preferred destination for international students. How can we ensure that the new South African visa regulations do not reverse the gains of this international recognition?

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: As I have said, the system has been working very well and there is good co-operation between my department and the Department of Home Affairs in terms of handling the flows of academic students and postdoctoral fellows amongst others onto our country. As I have said, we will make sure that we protect that situation. The matter has not arisen at all. In fact, we are in constant contact with the department so that we are able to deal with whatever problem that arise, as soon as it arises.

 

Prof B BOZZOLI: The international students do not have such an easy time, Minister. They have a torrid time getting their visas. Universities have set up entire departments to help them manage the getting of their visas. However, that is not my question. My question originates here: Once students have graduated - these foreign students who are mainly postgraduates and who are mainly from elsewhere in Africa - they have an enormous amount to offer the country. What missions will you be taking to make sure they are encouraged to stay in the country after their studies are finished and contribute in areas like lecturing, teaching, medicine, public health, the sciences, technology, engineering, etc, where we have a critical skills shortage? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Bozolli, I don’t think it is fair to just stand up and say that universities have a hard time. You actually have to come up with concrete examples and where the problems are. I do meet occasionally with vice chancellors. In our last meeting, they were asking us to further facilitate discussions with the Department of Home Affairs in order to iron out whatever problems, not in relation just to the new regulation, but in general. So, it is of no use to come and claim that universities have had to open huge departments and so on. Give evidence. Where there is a problem; we are going to stand up and address that problem. Secondly ... [Interjections.] 

 

Prof B BOZZOLI: There is a department at Wits for that!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no! No, no!

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: No, ...

 

... musa ukungiphazamisa. Angikuphazamisanga mina. [... don’t disturb me. I never disturbed you.]

 

Secondly, I understand that we do like to attract those graduates with skills who have graduated from South Africa, for instance. We try to recruit them but at the same time we must strike a balance by ensuring that some of the people who come to study here have to go back to their own countries - especially the African and other developing countries – so that they are able to develop their countries in the end. Even those who have done doctoral and postdoctoral studies have to go back and be academics in their countries which by the way also help to ease pressure on our universities here. [Applause.]

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Minister, you have indicated that you have not done an assessment, and we want to find out: Will you be doing one so that you can actually have a proactive approach to this as opposed to reactive approach in order that when something happens, then something will be done?

 

To simply consult the Department of Home Affairs is a bit problematic because they are jaundists in this matter: Tourism SA has had a problem with them. These regulations are towing and flowing in terms of them being reviewed. I think you should consider and make when to do an assessment and actually not consult with officials of the department.

 

Consult with those who would be affected - primarily your lecturers and the students who would have to deal with this - and find out whether they are actually having problems, as opposed to waiting to do a reactive response. Take a prioritative step now and be part and parcel of the review because it does seem to be necessary. Thank you.

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Sekela Somlomo, lo mbuzo ubuzwe kahle kodwa kukhona asebewufaka uchuku ngamabomu njengelungu elihloniphekile laphaya. Sebefuna ukungiqhatha nozakwethu uNgqongqoshe uGigaba ngoba ngenye yezinto le abayibheke ukuthi bafuna ukushaya ngayo yena noma uhulumeni. Asizukuyivuma leyo nto ngoba zonke izinkinga ezibhekene nalolu daba iSekela likaMongameli liziphendulile laze lathi kunekomidi loNgqongqoshe ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Deputy Speaker, the question was asked correctly but they are now provoking me, like the hon Member over there. Now they want to cause conflict between me and my colleague Minister Gigaba because that is what they wanted to tackle him or the government on. We will not allow that because all problems regarding this issue were responded to by the Deputy President and he even said that there is an Inter-Ministerial Committee ... [Interjections.]]

 

Mr M HLENGWA: On a point of order, hon Deputy Speaker: With all due respect to the Minister – with all due respect – I don’t think that it would be correct for him to insinuate that I would want to get him in conflict with the Minister of Home Affairs. I am not in this House to breed conflict. I think the Minister is really out of order. If he can just simply answer the question, it would really help. [Interjections.]

 

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Uyapolitika! Angiphambuki ngoba ngiyamkhumbuza ukuthi iSekela likaMongameli liphendulile ngalo lolu daba. Kungani ufanele uthi angiyophenywa phezu kokuthi ngenza umsebenzi ongaphezulu kwaleli komidi eliholwa yiSekela likaMongameli? Kuthiwe yonke into ethintene nale mithetho izothintwa yileli komidi loNgqongqoshe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: You are being political! I’m not diverting because I’m reminding him that the Deputy President has responded to this issue. Why are you suggesting that I should be investigated even though I’m working more than the committee which is led by the Deputy President? It was said that all matters regarding these Bills will be dealt with by this Inter- Ministerial Committee.]

 

That’s the interministerial committee that is going to deal with everything, including any possible impact on higher education. They will call me to say: Do you think that there is a problem or likely to be a problem? There has been no problem that has arisen thus far. That is all that I am saying

 

Yingakho ngithi uzama ukusiqhatha ngoba ufuna ngenze into engaphezu kwento vele uhulumeni aseyenza. Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[That is why I say you are trying to cause conflict between us because you want me to do more than what the government has already done. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]]

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Minister, you have just said that there needs to be a balance between harnessing scarce skills and recruiting and placing them in various institutions. Minister, may I know whether your department has a specific programme with regard to scarce skills that apply to it in so far as the placement of these foreign nationals who are academics is concerned. Are there any specific scarce skills that you have targeted, for instance, the sciences, engineering and others? Thank you

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Deputy Speaker, by the way, I should have said also that we have extended all the study visas of students to last for the duration of their study provided they continue to meet their academic requirements here.

 

Secondly, what I would like to say is: Yes, we do have what we call, amongst other things, a scarce skills list that we have developed, working together with the Department of Home Affairs. It says: These are the skills that we are short of as a country; and these are the kinds of skills that we would like to actually attract amongst other interventions.

 

It is not the only intervention for scarce skills. We have got our own domestic interventions and we have also got interventions to send students overseas. By the way, this gives me one point to make about what was said yesterday: In China, we have got thousands of South Africans who are studying mathematics, science and engineering. The Chinese are not only interested in cheap labour like the apartheid regime. Thank you very much.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon Minister. We now move to Question 279 which has been asked by hon J V Basson to the Minister of Basic Education [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy House Chair, our member, hon Mhlongo, had been lined up to ask a follow-up question. That question was directed to the Minister of Higher Education and Training, hon Blade Nzimande.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza: Thank you, hon member. Unfortunately, your member did not meet the list. [Interjections.] Can we move hon Deputy Minister?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Hon House Chair, he did because I went there to confirm if he appears or not.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, there is a stipulated number of people with oral questions that must follow up on a main question. Once that number of follow-up questions has been reached - even if there may be more members who are on the list - their follow ups are therefore not taken. I am sorry to your member that he or she did not meet the list. Hon Deputy Minister!

 

Department’s plans to address the problem of unemployable youth

 

279.        Mr J V Basson (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

 

Since 2015 is the Year of the Freedom Charter and the eradication of poverty and unemployment is one of the core principles espoused in the Freedom Charter, (a) what are her department's plans to address the problem of unemployable youth caused by the high number of early drop-outs from school due to various reasons of societal evils such as teenage pregnancy, substance abuse and lack of parental involvement and (b) what plans are in place in her department to assist those who are willing to learn but are intellectually not able to cope with mainstream education and are thus unable to reach or get to Matric level?   NO3235E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the question asked has got two parts. The answer to the first part regarding dropouts is as follows: Currently, there is a high participation rate of children of school going age, particularly in the primary school where the rate is at 99% whereas in high school it has increased to 90%. The number of out of school children for compulsory education, that is, children who are between seven to 15 years old has decreased from 345 000 in 2002 to less than 100 000 in 2014. We still find this to be unacceptably high. The department has initiated various steps in order to ensure that it addresses the problem.

 

With regard to teenage pregnancy, there is a specially designed curriculum change which deals with sex and reproductive activity amongst the learners and the dangers of HIV infections and sexually transmitted diseases and this is being implemented. It has also introduced a programme of peer education for girl and boy learners. It has also ensured that girl learners who fall pregnant are not excluded from access to education and are able to continue the education with the relevant support. For learners who are afflicted by HIV and Aids, there is a specially designed caring support programme to assist learners.

 

There are various initiatives beyond these, in a generic sense, that have been taken by the Department of Basic Education. For example, eight out of ten children attend no-fee schools and for the remaining 20% of children, those who are poor or destitute, are entitled by law to an exemption. So technically, we have free basic education.

 

Secondly, we have ensured that we increase the provision of nutrition to our learners and as we speak right now more than 9 400 000 children are fed everyday with nutritious food. This is another way in dealing with the matter. The issue of transportation is a critical one particularly in areas such as the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo, and steps have been taken to improve on that. The Eastern Cape, for example, provides transport to 65 000 learners and indeed much more has to be done. And there’s close collaboration between the Department of Transport and the Department of Basic Education.

 

With regard to the second part of the question, hon Chairperson, it is a very important part because it speaks particularly to children who are not intellectually able. The Department of Basic Education is at an advance stage in developing skills and vocational exit level qualifications at NQF level one and learning programmes that will meet the needs of learners with intellectual disability, who struggle to attain academic requirements of the National Curriculum Statements Grade R to Grade 12. The 26 subjects that constitute the learning programme focus on functional and ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take the follow-up question from Mr Basson.

 

Mrs J V BASSON: Eh ... Mrs Basson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Basson.

 

Ms J V BASSON: Ndiyabulela Sekela Mphathiswa weSebe lezeMfundo esiSiseko ngempendulo yakho, inene icace gca. Utsho kwavokotheka. [Thank you Deputy Minister of Basic Education for your answer, it is very clear. You were explicit as possible.]

 

Now, hon Deputy Minister, taking note that most of our schools are full-service schools in that they cater for all different types of learners with different challenges, and that most of our educators are not trained to teach such learners; does the department have any plans to equip our teachers in order to handle such challenges? If it does, how far is the department with the implementation of programmes such as Curriculum Planning and Development Divisions, CPDD, to capacitate educators to be able to deal with all learners with different intellectual challenges? [Interjections.] [Time expired.].

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson to hon Mrs Basson, this is a very important matter. What we have done with the introduction of the National Curriculum Assessment Policy Statement is ensuring that there is differentiated teaching and learning that takes place, particularly in mainstream schools where the educator has to be able to distinguish between the ordinary learner and learners who are challenged intellectually and otherwise.

 

With regard to the dedicated schools - the special schools - that deal with intellectually disabled learners, we have ensured that we develop a draft policy framework on improving access to services for children and learners with profound intellectual disability which includes access to basic education. This draft policy framework is currently being consulted on for finalisation and implementation.

 

In addition to this, the Department of Basic Education is strengthening collaboration with the Department of Social Development on sheltered workshops which provides skills to individuals with disabilities to participate in the economy, particularly with those who are unable to complete schooling. Furthermore, the department is also engaging with the Department of Higher Education and Training on the utilisation of community colleges for learners who have left school without any recognised qualifications. In addition, there is also an interaction and collaboration with the private sector providing opportunities and amenities for those learners who have disability challenges. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

Ms A T LOVEMORE: Hon Chair to the Deputy Minister, 47% of children who leave school without matric are considered unemployable. They remain unemployed. I want to focus on unemployed matriculants - young people who leave school having written and passed matric. One-third of those young people cannot find employment. So, of the 400 000 odd matriculants who passed last year, 133 000 are probably sitting without work right now and will remain without work. The World Bank this week highlighted that problem and blamed it on the mismatch between the skills of matriculants and the skills the market needs. Their lead economist said the school system is putting out school leavers who do not have the necessary educational attainment levels. How will you end this mismatch with labour market requirements? How will you ensure that there is a match between market demands and what schools produce and ensure that one-third of every year’s matriculants do not remain unemployed? [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson to the hon Lovemore, I think indeed we do support the fact that this is a very important area that we have to pay particular attention to. The hon Minister of Higher Education and Training has indeed issued a Green Paper and subsequently a White Paper on post-matric education where opportunities are going to be presented for those who wish to repeat matric and those who have to acquire skills.

 

The Department of Higher Education and Training has basically revamped and in fact created new opportunities through its Technical Vocational Education and Training centres, TVETs. In the past four years it was able to more than double its 300 000 enrolment and most of these learners are being funded. We have recognised the fact that there’s not only an academic path that has to be followed but also a technical and a vocational path. So the one avenue is the avenue provided for by the Department of Higher Education and Training, but the Department of Basic Education has indeed provided an opportunity for technical skills in technical schools and indeed, hundreds of teachers across the country have been trained.

 

From next year, there will be vocational subjects that are going to be offered and you would for the first time in the country have an alternative path of technical mathematics and technical science for those who wish to acquire artisanal skills. This is going to be expanded to occupational skills the year thereafter. So in a nutshell, what we are saying to you is that we have provided an alternative path within the schooling system in consultation and collaboration with the Department of Higher Education and Training. We have also ensure that we make optimal or use of the opportunities that the TVETs provide and indeed we do believe that together we can make a difference in this very important area of endeavour. Thank you very much.

 

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon House Chair, the question states that one of the causes of early dropout from schools is teenage pregnancy. Indeed, according to statistics, teenage pregnancy has become a plague in our country. Now I would like to ask the Minister, what strategies has the department taken to try and curb this plague? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair to the hon member who is raising an important concern, what the department has embarked on is firstly, a revision of its draft policy with regard to teenage pregnancy which would allow access and support for learners who fall pregnant; secondly, and which is of more importance and significance, is the fact that we have to - and we have done this in consultation with the Ministry of Health - ensure that sexual and reproductive education is emphasised and that we defer or delay the debut of sexual interaction and make learners aware of the risk of sexually transmitted diseases and HIV and Aids. This we do through the National Aids Council in collaboration with the Department of Health; and thirdly, we provided special guideline documents for educators and parents to ensure that they are able to assist learners.

 

Peer pressure is an important phenomenon and what the department has done is ensure that it develops a particular framework to assist learners in providing peer support to those learners who are exposed to or subjected to influence to indulge in sexual activity. That’s another element that we have looked at. The Quality Learning and Teaching Campaign is an initiative which basically involves parents. Schools are a microcosm of society and parental responsibility is important. And therefore, through the governing body associations and the parents association, we have ensured that we not only provide them with resources in terms of this important area, but also ensure that there is advocacy amongst communities to suspend or delay sexual debut for the benefit of our learners. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

Particulars regarding report on investigation into cash-for-jobs allegations

 

306.        Ms H S Boshoff (DA) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

 

Whether, with reference to her reply to question 1970 on 18 June 2015, she has received the report on the investigation into cash-for-jobs allegations; if not, (a) why not and (b) when does she expect to receive the report; if so, when (i) did she receive the report and (ii) does she intend to make the details of her actions arising from the report public?                                                                                                                                     NO3379E

 

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, given the time constraints, I am going to try to be brief but respond concisely to the question. The question has four parts. Firstly, the task team’s forensic wing is still pursuing the new leads that have emerged from whistleblowers. The report was to be delivered in July, but as a result of the new evidence from whistleblowers, there is further forensic investigation that is taking place. The report is expected during September 2015. We have not, as yet, received the report and indeed, once the report is received, we will follow the recommendations of the task team in ensuring that we are able to implement its recommendations. I thank you.

 

MS A T LOVEMORE: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I am sure there will be many recommendations. Regardless of the recommendations, it is alleged, at this stage, that Sadtu members were paid up to R30 000 - there are various numbers that are being flung around - by people who are unqualified to be school principals or to get jobs heading schools. You know that learners are victims of this unscrupulousness, selfishness and greed of the people who should actually be their role models. Will you commit that every single person who is found to have paid a bribe and every single person who is found to have accepted a bribe in exchange for a job or for influencing decision on any appointment be criminally charged?

 

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Lovemore, we certainly take the issue of corruption very, very seriously and if you look at the composition of the task team, you will notice that we have representatives from the Department of Justice, representatives from the SAPS and an independent forensic audit team that make up the task team to ensure that there is a thorough forensic process that is being followed. I can give you the assurance, on behalf of the Ministry, that not only will disciplinary steps be taken, but where there is criminal intent or action, the appropriate action would be taken, because we cannot allow the integrity of our system to be compromised by individuals who manipulate it for their own private ends and do so fraudulently. So, the assurance is certainly there and the action would be quite transparent. We are indeed accountable to nation for that particular purpose. Thank you.

 

Ms N R MOKOTO: Hon House Chair, Deputy Minister, the ANC, at its 53rd national conference noted that corruption and irregularities with regard to the employment and promotion of basic education employees were on the increase and resolved to take strong action to deal with that corruption, collusion and irregularities. Understanding that education is an apex priority for the ANC and is a sector that receives one of the biggest chunks of the Budget in the national fiscus, I wish to ask what mechanism does the Department of Basic Education have to fight those irregularities, fraud and corruption that are impacting on the vision and mission of the department and could you kindly ... [Time expired.]

 

THE MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The issues of corruption are indeed quite central to our efforts to create an efficient government and I think not only the ruling party, but all political parties in this House are concerned about corruption wherever they might find it.

 

What steps had been taken? What we do is basically to provide opportunities for whistleblowers and that has yielded very positive results internally, from within the department and from outside. One of the reasons for the delay of the report that we are referring to here is the fact that new evidence has come from whistleblowers.

 

There are three parts that we look at in relation to how we deal with this particular activity. One is through forensic investigations into alleged irregularities in the appointment and promotion of educators. The second is the assessment of administration or back-up systems and processes to ascertain whether there have been possible deviations. Quite easily, if we don’t look at this area, there could be manipulation of the administrative system to the advantage of those who have vested interest and those who indulge in corrupt practices. Thirdly - hon Lovemore would be happy to hear this - to report and to pursue any criminal activity among the law enforcement agencies. We also make use of the agencies that are available through the SAPS, the Public Protector, the National Prosecuting Authority and the Auditor-General, to ensure that we work together in eliminating corruption within the sector. Thank you very much.

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS AT Didiza): Hon members, I will now take the last two supplementary questions even though the time for the question has expired. Because there were already two members who had raised there hands, I will take them.

 

PROF C T MSIMANG: Hon House Chair, Mr Deputy Minister, we were already told in June that this report was in the pipeline. One would have thought that on a serious matter like this, the department would try and prioritise the matter. So, we are surprised that the report has not yet been received. We would like to know what measures the department is taking to expedite the finalisation and submission of the report.

 

THE MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, indeed, this is an important and priority issue. I have explained that as a result of new evidence, which we cannot leave unchecked, the task team has sought an extension of time. There was an engagement between the Minister and the task team, in this regard. The reasons and the request are both legitimate and reasonable and certainly would deal with the critical issue of corruption. For that reason, the deadline has been extended, not indefinitely, but only to September, which is next month. We do hope that by next month, we would have the report presented to the Ministry.

 

Ms HO MAXON: Chair, Deputy Minister, cash for jobs allegations involve Sadtu members. Sadtu is affiliated to “Sister Sdumo’s” Cosatu.

 

Ungakubo, yingakho udonsa izinyawo kulolu daba ngoba umkhuba usekhaya. [You are on their side, that is why you are dragging your feet on this issue because you are a part of them.]

 

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I must apologise; I got the first part and did not get the second part. I do wish I was able to understand. Could you please repeat it for me in English.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS AT Didiza): Hon Deputy Minister, the hon member was making a statement that cash for jobs involves Sadtu members, which is an affiliate of Cosatu and mentioned the president of Cosatu in the statement. She therefore asked whether that is the reason why there is slowness in dealing with the matter. That was the essence of the question.

 

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Absolutely not, and I think the hon member would certainly take comfort and heart in the fact that it has been chaired by Prof Volmink who is a very reputable person. We indeed would not tolerate any corruption from any quarter, whether it is from Sadtu or any other teacher’s union. I think by doing so, we would certainly be condoning irregularities and criminal conduct. We can give the assurance to the House that the delay is not occasioned by any affiliation or party affiliation to any organisation. I thank you.

 

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

 

NOTICES OF MOTION

 

Mr H C KRUGER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House debates the massive disjuncture between what the Minister of Home Affairs and the Minister of Tourism are saying and doing with regard to the red tape created by the new visa regulations and particularly how these translate into job losses affecting small businesses in the tourism industry.

 

Thank you.

 

Mr A M MUDAU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates the inadequate consequences for municipalities for poor performance and transgressions.

 

Ms V KETABAHLE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the increasing income inequality, especially in corporate South Africa, between the white minority and the black majority, where the median income of the white minority continues to increase despite black candidates having the same or better qualifications and experience.

 

Ms B KEKANA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates mechanisms to identify opportunities such as school feeding schemes where local women can be mobilised through co-operatives to provide affordable, nutritious food for children while earning a decent living for themselves.

 

I thank you.

 

Dr W JAMES: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House debates the management quality at our public hospitals and the effect it has on the standard of health care provided to, and clinical outcomes for South Africans.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr A M MATHLOKO: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the short-circuiting of legal processes by those who are close to the President to avoid accounting for their actions and secure for themselves top government positions, as is the case with the deputy head of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, Nomqobo Jiba.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House deliberates the stringent measures that must be employed to curb fraud and corruption in government departments and municipalities.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Chair, I hereby give notice that at its next sitting I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the House debates the Human Rights Watch report, entitled “Complicit In Exclusion”, which revealed that an estimated half-a-million children with disabilities have been shut out of the South African education system, proving that our government is failing to guarantee the basic right to education for many children with disabilities.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the recent calls by the SABC’s chief operating officer, Hlaudi Motsoaneng, for a patriotic media that reports positive news about the country and for journalists to be regulated, and the dangers of his understanding of what a patriotic media is.

 

Ms N BILANKULU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates ways to curb escalating school violence and ways to create safety schools, beyond the school itself.

 

Ms S V KALYAN: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

This House debates the Mbeki Report on Illicit Financial Outflows in Africa.

 

Mr M MABIKA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House deliberates the killing of albino people in South Africa for the express purpose of harvesting their body parts for use in the preparation of muti by unscrupulous sangomas who practice witchcraft, noting that Thandazile Mpunzi, an albino woman aged 20 from Emanguzi KwaMhlabayalingana, was murdered recently and her body cut into several parts before being buried allegedly for the purpose of harvesting selected body parts.

 

Ms N MTHEMBU: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates the underspending of capital budgets and municipal grants, and the overspending of operational budgets by municipalities.

 

I thank you.

 

Ms E N LOUW: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

The House debates the decline in commitment by medical officers to uphold the basic principles of the medical profession, as evidenced by the death of an asthmatic patient outside a public clinic in East London after she had been kicked out by two clinic nurses.

 

Ms D P MANANA: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

The House debates measures geared at persuading communities to stop the closing of schools and the use of schools children in violent services delivery protests.

 

Ms D VAN DER WALT: Hon House Chair I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House debates the allocation of norms and standards for the funding of schools, specifically the unacceptable decrease of such, whilst the majority of our schools are struggling financially

Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the development and strengthening of community-based papers and the promotion of the emergence of grassroots-orientated media that capitalises on doing journalism not on the basis of popular stories, but by giving voice to ordinary and poor communities.

 

Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

 

That the House debates strategies on how to roll out broadband to rural schools in order to ensure that all learners from such areas have access to information.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need to adopt a more distinguished approach towards the funding of local government in order to take into account differences in economic, social and demographic circumstances, so that revenues from municipalities previously privileged under the apartheid regime can be distributed to other, poorly resourced municipalities.

 

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

 

DISMISSED POLICE OFFICERS

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr MHLONGO: Madam House Chair, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

  1. notes that 21 police officers were dismissed from the Free State province, in Welkom and Thabong;

 

  1. remembers that the 21 police officers dismissed are from the same area where other police officers were arrested by the Hawks last year, after months of intense investigation;

 

  1. notes that these police officers are implicated and charged with crimes of a serious nature;
  2. acknowledges that there is a growing number of police officers dismissed from service due to improper conduct and participation in criminal activities;

 

  1. recognises the need for an independent and well trained police service, inculcated and trained in the basic principles of law; and

 

  1. further recognises the need to monitor and keep record of all the retired, dismissed and off-duty police officers

 

DEATH OF 40 MIGRANTS IN MEDITERRANEAN SEA

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms S P TOBIAS: Madam Chair, the ANC move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes with sadness the passing of 40 migrants in the Mediterranean sea from the ship that sank off the coast of Libya on Saturday 15, August 25, 2015;

 

  1. further notes that the Italian Navy ship rescued almost 400 migrants but could not save the 40 migrants who were found suffocating below the deck on the boat that was transporting them to Europe;

 

  1. believes that the boat which was intercepted south of the Italian island of Lampedusa was carrying around 300 people;

 

  1. realizes that it was overcrowded and started to sink about 21 miles of the Libyan coast;

 

  1. acknowledges that at least 2000 people have died while crossing the Mediterranean sea according to the latest figures compiled by the International Organisation for Migration; and

 

  1. conveys condolences to the families of all those who died on this fateful incidence.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In light of the objection motion falls away.

 

MARSHA COX

(Draft Resolution)

 

MS T E BAKER: Madam Chair, I hereby move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes that, as we celebrate Women’s Month, South African hockey player, Marsha Marescia Cox, has announced her retirement from the national sporting arena;

 

  1. also notes that she has had a glorious career spanning 14 years, beginning at the age of 18;

 

  1. acknowledges that Marsha holds the record for being the most capped South African athlete for obtaining over 300 caps over her 14 year career;

 

  1. recalls that Marsha started playing hockey at the age of 6 at the Greenwood Park Primary school in Durban continuing at Northlands Girls High school;

 

  1. further recalls that she captained the South African women’s hockey team since 2006, leading her team at two Olympic Games where they finished 9th in the 2004 games and 10th in the 2012 games, as well as two World Cups and four Commonwealth Games where the team achieved 4th place in 2014;

 

  1. salutes this South African sporting icon and wishes her well in her future endeavours;

 

  1. thanks her for her years of commitment to the national hockey team and for being a shining example to so many young South African girls.

 

Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In light of the objection the motion falls away.

 

REEVA STEENKAMP’S 32nd BIRTHDAY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms S J NKOMO: I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

  1. Notes that today, 19 August 2015, would have been Reeva Steenkamp's 32nd birthday;

 

  1. extends its heartfelt compassion to the Steenkamp family, who will not only be remembering the loss of their daughter this week but will have to witness the man who was responsible for her death being released imminently from prison;

 

  1. notes that this is particularly saddening, as his release comes during Women’s Month, a time when South Africa seeks to highlight the issue of violence against women;

 

  1. recognises that this is a grave injustice, at least morally, to this family, and all those loved and cared for Reeva;

 

  1. calls on all South Africans to keep the Steenkamp family in their thoughts and prayers and to support campaigns amid at ending violence against women and children.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In light of the objection the motion falls away.

 

DEATH OF A RUGBY PLAYER, FREDDY ARRIES

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr J VOS: I hereby move on behalf of the Democratic Alliance:

 

That this House -

 

  1. notes that on Saturday, 15 August 2015, the community of Witzenberg tragically lost a talented young rugby player, Freddie Arries;

 

  1. also notes that Freddie was a 21-year old who played for the Boland league in the Koue Bokkeveld;

 

  1. further notes that on Saturday Freddie collapsed after a rugby match from a head injury ;

 

  1. acknowledges that  we lost a very special young man last week- a young man who touched literally hundreds of lives with his huge heart and a gift for always seeing the positive;

 

  1. also acknowledges that we are terribly saddened to hear of this young man who died in the prime of his life;

 

  1. calls for greater caution and support for young players in both their training, the handling of such physical games as well as the availability of rapid aid to avoid tragedies such as this one;

 

  1. conveys our sincere condolences to the family, friends and teammates of Freddie Arries; and

 

  1. keep the Witzenberg community in our thoughts and prayers during this difficult time.

 

Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In light of the objection the motion falls away.

 

TRAGIC DEATH OF THANDAZWA MBALO AT NDENDE CLINIC, NDABENI VILLAGE, EAST LONDON

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr L R MBINDA: On behalf of the PAC, I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

  1. notes the tragic death that occurred in the Ndende clinic in Ndabeni village in East London on Monday afternoon;

 

  1. recognises that Thandazwa Mbalo, a 31 year old mother of two, died on the pavement of the clinic due to an asthma attack;

 

  1. further recognises that, the deceased was with her mother, a 61 year old elderly woman who had to carry her on her back because they were being chased out by the nurses;

 

  1. also notes that subsequent to that, yesterday disruptions erupted at the clinic due to about 200 residents who were protesting outside of the clinic for the firing of the nurses;

 

  1. calls on the House to convey condolences to Thandazwa’s mother and her family;
  2. further calls on the Department of health to look into the issue as there had been other instances where patients have been sent away from hospital clinics; and

 

  1. pleads to the health professionals that they must learn that treating our people in this way is totally unbecoming.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have noted that this motion which is raised is a motion without notice. However, it is the same as the motion that was raised by hon Louw on the motions. I just wanted to indicate so that members will not think that there is a confusion or a repetition. It is just that the status of motion and motions without notice are not the same.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): there is no objection I put the motion.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: We object, Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Motion falls away.

 

PEOPLE WITH ALBINISM FACE MULTIPLE FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the IFP:

 

That this House —

 

  1. notes that people with albinism continue to face multiple forms of discrimination in South Africa, and across the world;

 

  1. further notes that the dismembered body of a 20 year old woman from Northern KwaZulu-Natal, who lived with albinism, was recently discovered in a shallow grave in Manguzi;

 

  1. acknowledges albinism is still profoundly misunderstood, socially and medically, and that this leads to various forms of stigma and discrimination;

 

  1. accepts, that there is a greater need for awareness and education about albinism;

 

  1. conveys, condolences to the family of the murdered young women;

 

  1. calls, on this house to support albinism awareness month, which is observed in September each year, by pledging support to address discrimination against people living with the condition.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections, I put the motion.

 

Ms E N LOUW: I object hon Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Motion falls away.

 

RENOVATION OF MEGATONG PRIMARY SCHOOL IN SOWETO

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M S MABIKA: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the NFP, I move without notice:

 

That this House —

 

  1. notes that an interior design company has offered to help renovate Megatong Primary School in Soweto, which over the years has become dilapidated because of a lack of funding;

 

  1. also notes that the windows were broken, light fixtures were falling from the ceilings and many classrooms had gaping holes whilst the schools' toilets were also in a state. There were no sinks or taps and the majority of the toilets were broken; and

 

  1. finally notes that the community and parents have volunteered to help with the renovations; and

 

  1. calls upon this Hon House to express its delight at the innovative partnership between the school, the community, parents and a private company to renovate the premises of the Megatong Primary School in Soweto.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections, I put the motion

 

Ms E N LOUW: I object hon Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Motion falls away.

Mr M HLENGWA I hereby move without notice on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the house —

 

  1. notes that on 14 and 15 August 2015 the Students Representative Council, SRC, of Rhodes University hosted the eastern cape student leaders transformation colloquium;

 

  1. further notes that this colloquium brought together the SRCs of Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University, Walter Sisulu University and Fort Hare University;

 

  1. recognises that the transformation agenda is not an event but rather a process which if punctuated by emotions may reverse the gains of nation building and reconciliation achieved over the past 21 years;

 

  1. emphasises that the transformation agenda is a necessary discussion to strengthen freedom and democracy in South Africa which must be led by the youth and student sector;

 

  1. welcomes the initiative of the Eastern Cape intervarsity SRCs for their constructive approach towards the transformation agenda; and

 

  1. acknowledges that the issue of student funding and access to institutions of higher learning remains problematic and needs the urgent attention of this House, the Department of Higher Education and Training and other relevant stakeholders.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections, I put the motion.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: We object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Motion falls away.

 

WOMEN OF SOUTH AFRICA STILL FACE VIOLENCE AND DEATH DESPITE THE AWARENESS BEING CREATED THROUGH WOMEN’S MONTH

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the NFP, I move without notice:

That this House —

 

  1. notes that August is a month in which South Africa celebrates the women of our country and honour their contribution to society;

 

  1. also notes that: despite the awareness being created through Women’s month, the women of South Africa still face violence and death on a daily basis; and ...

 

  1. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS A T Didiza): Order! hon members, can we allow the member at the podium to be heard.

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Thula Phela!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS AT Didiza): Hon members, can we please stop conversing loudly so that we allow the member who is reading his motion to do so.

 

Hon member! Hon member can you please proceed outside with the issues you want to engage on but can we allow and respect the member who is speaking.

 

  1. Mr M L SHELEMBE: finally notes that several women have met an untimely and violent death in the KwaZulu-Natal province in this month, amongst them and as yet unnamed 66 year old woman, whose decomposing body was found in her flat in Umbilo, Durban, with her hands tied behind her back on 18 August 2015, A 57 year old Sanatoria Mhlongo (57) of Dweshula area in Port Shepstone who was stabbed to death and her body cut by her 19 year old nephew on 18 August 2015. A 90-year old woman, Ellen Mlaba who was gunned down by unknown assailants on 17 August 2015 in her home in eSikhawini, about 15 kilometres south of Richards Bay;

 

  1. calls upon this Hon House therefore to express its horror and outrage at the violent deaths of all women who have been killed in KwaZulu-Natal; and

 

  1. further calls upon society to condemn these violent deaths and to respect and treasure our women, and

 

  1. extends its condolences to the families and loved ones of all women who have died violent deaths in this month of celebrating women.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections I put the motion.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, we object.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Motion falls away.

 

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order, Rule 70. I would like to know in terms of what Rule the hon member has objected to this motion, because we work according to the Rules of this House?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, ... [Interjection.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I rise on a point of order House Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza):Yes.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We object to the motion. It is within our right in this House whether to object or accept.

 

An HON MEMBER: Yes!

 

We were not sent by the IFP or any other political party to represent it in this House. We represent 1,1 million people ... [Interjection.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. You can take your seat.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... who voted for us. So, we are not taking orders from anyone in this House including the IFP and the ANC.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please take your seat.

 

Hon members, order! Hon members, ...

 

Mr KHUBISA:On a point of order Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat. I will take you afterwards.

 

Hon members, in terms of the Rules, motions without notice must be agreed to unanimously. So, when any of the members of a party objects to a motion, the motion therefore, falls away.

 

Mr N SINGH: Thank you madam Chair for that. My simple question was in terms of what Rule did the member ... It is Rule 98(3), just to draw to the attention of members. I don’t think they are aware. It is 98(3).

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, it is Rule 98(3), but also 97(g). Can we go ahead?

 

Hon Khubisa, you wanted to raise a point of order.

 

Mr N M KHUBISA: No Chair. I was just worried that a female or a woman would stand and object to a very serious matter ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member. Order!

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I rise on a point of order House Chair!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, I have already ruled to ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I rise on a point of order Chair. It was a motion. We objected and we are still going to object.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Member can you please take your seat. Are there any other motions?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order Chair.

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: I rise on a point of order Chair!

 

Mr N S MATIASE House Chair, we cannot just let the hon member of the NFP to make such a derogative and disrespectful statement, referring to the member as a woman. It was a very sexist statement, and I am told that he is a learned friend. He is a doctor, whatsoever the position. Can you please compel him to withdraw that?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order, hon members can you please take your seats. I in ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: I rise on a point of order Chair!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please take your seats. Hon Filtane, can you take your seat.

 

Hon members, I ruled even before the member of the EFF stood again to defend her point, I had already ruled hon Khubisa out of order. So the matter does not arise.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE House Chair, I move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

  1. notes that since the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform spoke about his departments, ill form new policy proposition on land reform, which will entail giving back about 50% of the land to farm workers, white farmers have been evicting black farmworkers at such an alarming rate;

 

  1. further notes that this happened despite the weekly legislative mechanism that the ANC has, such as the extension of the Security of Tenure Act, which basically require farm owners to have a court order to evict farmworkers; and that justice is not available for farmworkers because they have neither the knowledge, nor the resource to fight the eviction in court;

 

  1. acknowledges the pains suffered by John Gcanga who is 58-years-old and his wife Ella who is 59, who had to rebuild their lives away from familiar soil when they were evicted after 20 years on the Rawsonville Farm, here in Western Cape, left blind in his right eye by the poison of toxic pesticides, and that Gcanga said he had never received any compensation, and that he and his wife left the farm after the owner told them to clear the house and get out;

 

  1. further acknowledges that Virginia Kapa is suffering a similar fate, and that she has left behind 10 years of her life on a farm and with her three children moved into a shack in another Rawsonville camp, and that she was also accused by the farm owner of running a shebeen from the farm dwelling, which Kapa denies;

 

  1. notes that these are just few example of a white spread phenomenon of land evictions, not just in the Western Cape, but throughout the country;

 

  1. Calls on government of the ANC to once and for all take a resolution on the land questions seriously, and expropriate all stolen land without compensation, those who got it via apartheid and theft, the land should be expropriated;

 

  1. further calls on government to issue and then all evictions of farmworkers until a permanent solution is found on resolving the land challenges.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections, I put ... Hon member from the NFP.

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: I rise to object, and this too must fall away.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much. [Laughter.] Are there any motions without notice? Order, hon members. Order. Hon member from the DA.

 

Dr W JAMES: House Chair, may I address you?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, sir.

 

Dr W JAMES: Parliament is the highest debating Chamber in the land, and in this Chamber, we do things, we pass motions were there is argument. When a section of this House mechanically and routinely turns down motions without notice, they undermine the credibility of reason argument in a highest debate in Chamber in this land. So, I just wish to appeal ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members.

 

Dr W JAMES: ... to those who do this, to please apply reason before you decide what to do with motions without notice because, let me say I find the rejection of condolence motions to be colours. I find the fact that we are not recognising the achievements of South Africans and their teams to be undermining the recognition of quality in our nation. And I most so founded when our citizens look at what we do in this House. Isn’t that kind of behaviour which suggests a suspension of reason? The suspension of reason undermines what is the highest debating Chamber in this land. I thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member. [Applause.] Hon members.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. Order, hon members. [Applause.] Hon member.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order, and I hope you will give me enough time.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am allowing you time to speak.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Parliament should remember that we are in the state of affairs we find ourselves precisely because of partisan selective application of the Rules of the House, and opposition parties together with the ruling party have ganged up against the EFF and amended ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: ... and amended Rules ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. Let’s listen to the member.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: ... amemended Rules and make it possible that members of this, the honourable House, which decorum should be upheld, police should be allowed in to assault members of this House. These hon members have undermined and weakened the capacity of this House to hold the executive accountable on countless occasions, and the day that they consider upholding the constitutional mandate and responsibility of this House and this House to fulfill its constitutional mandate that will be the day that sanity will come back and prevail in this House.

 

Lastly, if the basis of this argument is drawn from a norm, there are matters of principle that an hon member selectively forgets ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: ... and we are prepared to raise those matters of fundamental interests for which this House should uphold. Therefore, his point is frivolous.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member from the DA. Can you please stop conversing across?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you,

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Then hon members. Hon members, order.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take a seat. Hon members, I have allowed the two members to address us. I was myself going to appeal to all of you that we should remember the purpose of what the motions without notice are for. Members in the Chief Whips Forum would know also what are the procedures in terms of such motions, when should they be table, so that they are circulated to all the parties. There has been a concern raised by the member of the EFF, which I will ask the Table to follow up that motions were not circulated to them. But I would indeed appeal that all of us, no matter our political differences, lets find some of the common grounds with respect to other matters that ought to unite us as a nation. I know there maybe issues that we are agreeved about, but I don’t think it are beyond us to find one another on those issues off national importance. I would really ask there were possible maybe the Chief Whips Forum again should look at this matter just to reflect on it so that we can find a way in which even if we differ, but on those matters which to us are political that relate to our nation, we can find a common ground. Thank you, hon member. Hon member, you wanted to raise a point of order? [Applause.]

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Hon Chair, in accordance to Rule 47, no member shall interrupt another member while speaking, and even when the hon member from the DA has an objection ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: We were quiet. You see, Once again on my right wing ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: ... on my right wing very appropriately, when a member of the EFF speaks, you will get a whole lot of noise from this side, and in accordance with Rule 47, no member shall interrupt another member while speaking, except to call attention to a point of order or question of privilege and see how they brake that Rule. Speaker, they are breaking that Rule and you are doing nothing.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: They can do just as they pleased in this House.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, thank you very much for your point of order. You are perfectly right. It applies to all of us because earlier on I saw you doing the same, and I am sure all of us will abide by the same Rule. [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Hon House Chairperson, just to inform the House that we dealt with this matter in the Chief Whips Forum. We dealt with it extensively. So, tomorrow morning, we are going to take a decision in the National Action Plan Committee meeting, and that decision will bring it to this House. Thanks.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, the hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party is correct. There was an extensive discussion. I raised at the Chief Whips Forum this morning the exact points that the hon James has made about having decorum. This is the early opportunity Parliament has to express itself on a nonpartisan way. But I re-must object to the intervention by the hon Paulsen, and perhaps you would like to share with this House, why he actually put a job application, and with us several months ago ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member. Order.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... and now cause us ...

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Hon Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. Hon mebers.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Hon Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members.

 

Mr N M PAULSON: Hon Chairperson, I want to address this issue. May I address this issue? This is not the first time ... This is the ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members. I have recognised the member, so please allow him to express himself; hon Shivambu.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are you audible?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much. I am not. Switch it on or I can use the one at the podium. Can I use the one at the podium? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. Hon Shivambu. [Interjections.] Order hon members!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much. The rules, as they appear in this 8th edition, which is the latest edition of the Rules of the National Assembly, say that before motions without notice are presented in this House there must be unanimous concurrence of all parties. We know we agreed in the Chief Whips’ Forum and endorsed here that ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members! Order!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... we can read all motions even if there is no unanimous concurrence but once there is an objection from any Member of Parliament that motion falls away. Now the National Assembly Programming Committee, the NAPC, does not have the power to change the agreement that we have taken or the rules. Only the Rules Committee can make such changes, because I know that there is a process that it is engaged in. So, whatever we agreed upon in the Chief Whips’ Forum is all agreement but it can’t override the rules and what we have agreed upon.

If you want to change the rules again for specific purposes you can do that. During the apartheid era specific rules were passed to target certain individuals. We did so before by passing a rule that was targeted at members of the EFF; and unless such rule is rescinded, we are not going to co-operate with any of you. [Interjections.] We have not been sent here by you; we are not employed by you. The employers of the EFF are the voters who have voted for the EFF and they are still happy with what we are doing as Members of Parliament. So ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... whatever you do, we are going to agree to all rules for ... [Interjections.] Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order hon members! I have noted the hands, but I am not going to recognise them. We have had an indication from all the Chief Whips, those who have spoken that there is indeed a matter that has been discussed, this matter in particular. Hon Shivambu even elaborated on the process, which indeed I have highlighted and further said the issue was discussed here but as said earlier, I will appeal to members of all parties to reflect again on this matter.

 

Hon Dlakude indicated that the matter will be discussed and I am sure if it is in the agenda or requested to be before the NAPC. Any other matter at the end that relates to rules will be dealt with by the Rules Committee and brought back to the House for the House to approve such rules. Hon member, I would not want us to belabour this point because I think all of us have had a sense of what we are trying to persuade one another about, in respect of us as representative of our people and how we should deal with matters of national concern. Thank you very much.

 

The House adjourned at 17:48.

__________

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

National Assembly

 

Please see pages 3145-3160 of the ATCs.

 

Please see pages 3160-3161 of the ATCs.

 


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